Discovering Humanity's Mysterious Past and True Origins with Tok Thompson PhD

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Welcome to the Next Level Soul podcast, where we ask the big questions about
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life. Why are we here?
Is this all? There? Is?
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What is my soul's mission? We
attempt to answer those questions and more by
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bringing you raw and inspiring conversations with
some of the most fascinating and thought provoking
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guests on the planet. Today,
I am your host, Alex Ferrari.
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I've always wanted to help the audience
take their soul to the next level,
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you need to do is go to
Next levelsoul dot com forward slash free Disclaimer.
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The views and opinions expressed in this
podcast are those of the guests and
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do not necessarily reflect the views or
positions of this show, its host,
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or any of the companies they represent. Now today on the show, we
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welcome Professor tok Thompson and Tokey and
I are going to have a fascinating conversation
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about the true origins of man,
myth and folklore. This is a fun,
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fun conversation I think you guys are
really really going to enjoy. So
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let's dive in. I'd like to
welcome the show to Thompson. How are
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you doing so? Very good?
Very good. Thank you so much for
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coming on the show, my friend. I'm looking forward to our conversation about
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folklore and myth, which is your
specialty. Can you tell the audience a
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little bit about your background and what
you've been studying for the last thirty twenty
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however long years in twenty five words
or less, I can try. My
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own background is kind of just unique, and it probably has something to do
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with what I'm doing as an academic. So I grew up kind of out
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in the woods in Alaska, and
my dad was kind of a bit of
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a survivalist. I I grew up
around people very much. And then when
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I got to college, I went
right from the backwoods of Alaska right to
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Harvard College, and it ended up
becoming fascinated with the anthropology, like,
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you know, what is this species
up to homossapiens apiens? And what are
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people? What is culture? And
all that? And I grew up,
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you know, with a lot of
surrounded by a lot of native culture.
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My name is sort of an anglicization
of a native name. I'm not native
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myself, but I have a lot
of Native family members and you know,
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community members, friends and whatnot,
So I growing up in that community,
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I was always really exposed to that
sort of side of things, and it
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was always, you know, it's
always been a part of my life.
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And then you know, then that
was another part of the anthropology I realized,
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especially in the rest of the US, like Natives don't play that big
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of a role in the culture,
and so that's a part of it too.
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I really think that, you know, the indigenous languages and the mythologies
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and world views, and there's just
a lot out there that's really beautiful.
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Nick at them, you know that. I think people could learn a lot
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of We don't teach it enough.
I don't think on our American school system
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without without question, I come from
a storytelling background in Hollywood, so I've
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studied myth and obviously Joseph Campbell and
everything that he's done, and it is
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it is the is they say.
I think George Lucas said the meat and
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potatoes of a species is carried around
through folklore and myth. Would you agree,
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Well, yeah, stories in general, right, I mean, you
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know, how do we think of
the world. Usually it's not just like
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isolated facts. But people people tell
stories and they put together stories. You
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have the story of your you know, your nation, your religion, your
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your your people. Where did you
know? Then the myths where did we
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all come from? Right? Where
did this all start? Or where's it
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all going? And even individual stories
you kind of walk around like, this
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is my story. I grew up
in Alaska. You know, everybody has
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these narratives. We talk about other
people's stories, and you know, politics
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is often in stories. So I
think that that's really what gives human culture
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its power, is telling and sharing
stories and building those story worlds together.
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So that's you know, that's literature. But for me, a much bigger
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part of storytelling is is in folklore
and mythology. Now, can you share
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an example of a folklore tale that
deeply embodies spiritual values in one way,
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shape or form. Yes, I
think all of this are kind of spiritual
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value. Right. They tell you
what is spiritual in the world, They
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tell you what you know where where's
the spiritual stuff? So you know,
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in abraham A religions reached to the
idea of heaven and that's it's kind of
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up right, So it's up there, and the stars, and so if
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you have people are a point to
heaven, everything will point up right.
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Even though we know now we're on
a little ball spinning around. So what's
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up now twelve years, twelve hours
later is going to be down right,
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But there's still this idea that is
up. And so this in you know,
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this permeates our entire culture. You
know, high is good in our
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culture. If I say you're going
to get a high grade in my class,
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you know that's a good grade.
High is good. Why is high
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good? Well, because that's where
that's where God is, that's where the
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divine is, that's where you go
when you die if you're a good person.
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Right, And of course there's different
stories that put it up, you
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know, very very differently. And
you know, so one of the big
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differences that you see really with Native
American stuff is the idea of souls,
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that it's not just a human centric
enterprise, right, I mean, in
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the Abrahamic things, you've got God, the creative of the universe is basically
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a guy usually represented like a home
god made man in his image, and
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the theology is that only people have
souls, right that that, you know,
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contrary to the movies good dogs do
not get to go to heaven.
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I mean, this is the official
theology anyway, right that, So you
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might be ninety eight point five percent
us genetically, but as zero percent soul,
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it has no soul at all.
And yet if you go the Native
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American traditions, there are stories,
like you know, some of my nearly
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all of them, it's animals that
are creators and they or even plants or
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even stuns, and they sort of
create us. So that's a very different
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way of looking at things. So
in the Native American view, like you
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know, do wolves have souls?
Yes? You know, that's that's a
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real dynamic. You see, It's
very very different between these two mystic views.
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So I know that Joseph Campbell stuff
with tread it's teasing, like what
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all these myshare in common? But
I think there's a lot of beauty in
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what they their diversity, like how
do they set up things differently? Right?
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Is what is the soul? What
happens when you die? What's out
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there? And so again, you
know, that's that's an interesting split right
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there with say Native American, all
these various and different Native American traditions and
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languages and mythologies and religions, but
they all share that, you know,
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wolves have souls. So let me
ask you then, from your research,
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when is the first time in folklore, in myth and story that the soul
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is introduced as a character element in
these stories? Well, how far back
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does that concept go? Yeah,
well, okay, so that's hard to
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answer because we know it goes way
back further than writing, right, So
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how do how do we have any
record really of when this starts? And
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so it's hard to know. I
mean, holmost sapiens sapiens have been us
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for like four hundred thousand years.
Presumably we've been telling stories for at least
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four hundred thousand years. You know, we don't know about did homo erectors
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tell stories or protos stories? You
know, we don't know, and I
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don't know how we would ever know, but presumably at some point we picked
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it up and it's you know,
it's certainly been a part of the human
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condition, probably for as soon as
we figured out language. I mean,
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I think one of the first things
that people are going to besides the mundane
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stuff like you know, watch out
here comes a lion, you know,
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I think one of some of the
first things people going to wonder about is
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is you know the power of things
and what happened when you die? Right?
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I mean, you know you're aware
or you become aware that other people
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die and people want to talk about
this. You know, people wonder what
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happened if you know you're going to
die, right and you still't know what's
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that all about? Well, that's
I think that's been an eternal part of
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human culture, stories about wondering what
this is all about? Yeah, and
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I think this we're the only species
on the planet in my knowledge, that
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understands that it will die one day. It does as far as we know,
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you know, honestly, do whales
know, I don't know. You
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know, do dolphins know? Yeah? We were just beginning to figure out
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all the stuff that they're talking about. And what's interesting is that we do
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know that they're talking about a lot
of stuff, right, So we do
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know that these guys are communicating a
lot, and nearly all animals are I
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mean, you know, bats and
certainly all of mammals we talk a lot.
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So it's not just people, right, But we're just need to understand
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how to decode this, and they're
getting closer, right, they're decoding dolphin
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and whale songs and stuff like that. So as far as we know,
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as far as we know, we're
the only sort of storytelling species. I
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would love to be proved wrong on
that. I think it'd be fascinating.
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But right now, as far as
we know, this is what gives humans
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our punch. Now there's another there's
another aspect to spirituality, myth, myth,
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folklore, and also just spiritual texts, ancient texts that talk about the
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great illusion, the the dream as
the Aborigine call it, or maya in
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the ancient Indian text, where this
is all essentially a matrix, a construct,
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a hologram. How far back do
you see that or have you where
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have you come of crossed that idea? And it doesn't go across most of
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the research you've done in different cultures, you know, I think there's couple
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different questions. Jay, if you
look about you know, different cultures,
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they definitely have, you know,
different concepts like the spirit world or what's
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beyond it or something. And then
you also have sort of I think in
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all places around the world, you
also have sort of individuals profits dreamers that
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kind of thing that you know,
have experiences and they try to bring them
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back and tell stories about them.
You know, maybe this is getsophraid of
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our mental illness, or maybe they're
tapping into something. Right, So,
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I mean, the world is full
of mysteries and one of the things that
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these stories do, and they're sneaky
this way that they set up the way
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we think about the world. And
so if you can think outside of those,
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right, like what actually might be
out there? Right? What does
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it all mean? How? You
know they think of the human neurons and
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how many there are? Right,
I mean, this is an incredibly complex
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machine, and now you can read
the scientific stuff that they think. Oh
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well, maybe consciousness is tied in
with the quantum continuum. Maybe quantum mechanics
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have something to do with this fascinating
thought, right, So maybe it is
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maybe our thoughts are somehow tied into
the quantum realm, which, of course
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you can explore that physically is fast
and right, I mean quantum entanglement if
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you follow that, So basically it
says that you know, space and time
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don't really exist in the quantity entanglement. And this is over the universe,
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which includes like a lot of places, a lot of stars. I mean,
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I trillions of stars are out there. So we've got like billions of
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neurons, several trillion stars. I
don't have the exact numbers. I'm not
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a physicist, but you get the
idea that you know, this is fascinating
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stuff. So the world is a
world of wonders, right, and science
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is great. I'm not an antiscience, but science improved by asking those far
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out questions. We'll be right back
after a word from our sponsor, and
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now back to the show, right
exactly, So these concepts of like,
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you know, are we when the
matrix showed up? I think this is
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the first time that we really figured
out or first time in the zeitgeist that
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the idea of that, Wait a
minute, are we in a giant computer
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program? You know? Is there
some nerdy alien somewhere our metaphor for today,
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like paleyol At the shore Man would
have said computer program, right,
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you wouldn't know that, But Maya
or the dream or like the dream for
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the Aborigine would be the equivalent of
that, or Maya is the great illusion.
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So they're using their you know what, yeah, yeah, well this
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idea where is consciousness or what is
this? You know, what does it
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come from? How is it different
from materiality? You know, is consciousness
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simply a product of materiality? Right? Are we? Or is it?
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Is there something else out there about
consciousness? And so you know, I
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think these questions have been raised in
multiple cultures all around the world and that
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plugs you know, again, what's
beyond the physicality? And is there anything
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you know? So this is this
is I think the cornerstone of a lot
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of these different lines of inquiry that
you find in different cultures. So have
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you have you done any research in
the near death experience phenomenon? Oh?
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Yeah, yeah, absolutely, which
you're as part of shamanism, you know.
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The uh you know, one way
that people often become shamans in Native
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American culture is they have a near
death experience to get all by bear or
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something, and up until then they're
like normal people. And then they sort
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of feel like they've got die,
gone to the spirit realm and come back
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and they go to the and then
they have this sort of shamanic awake.
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Anyone might say, because this is
exactly what shalmans are supposed to do.
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This is the craft of shamanism.
You sort of leave your body, you
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know, have an out of body
experience, which is what people report a
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lot in your death experiences, even
in the US, right, you know,
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the hospital dead and floating above them, that sort of thing. So
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whether or not this is true,
do people are really flowed? I'm not
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going to answer that. I'm not
a physicist, But what is true is
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that people in many, many parts
of the world we poort this same story
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when one could say yeah, and
it's it's it's yeah. I've interviewed over
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a hundred at this point of near
death experiences, and I've and even talked
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to some academics who've studied that near
death experiences across the world in different cultures,
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and it's fascinating that you're right,
these stories are coming out and it's
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not always a tunnel of white light. Sometimes if you're if you're a native,
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it's going through a hole in a
tree or walking a path. But
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there's some sort of there's a lot
of common denominators, and it's pretty it
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is a pretty fascinating, and it's
a pretty new thing. Even though there
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is, for my understanding, references
to your death experiences in the Bible,
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in Greek, in Greek mythology or
Greek Greek culture. I mean, you
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know, if you think about like
Christianity the cornerstone belief of what you should
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believe, the central Christian tenet,
Right, he died and is reborn.
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Right, see idea that Christ died, went to the spirit Rome or whatever
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and came back. Right, So
this is a this is actually a cornerstone
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of Christian theology. Now, how
does it How does the folklore and myth
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really influence modern religion as we know
it today and its practices? That's hugely?
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What can I say? I mean, you know, with myth,
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how I define myth that like,
you know, a sacred creation story?
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This is the usual one. Sometimes
they're like after the world ends, but
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usually their creation stories like how did
this world come to be? And so
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you know, I don't know any
religion that doesn't have that have one of
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those, and religion is more than
that certainly. But I mean, you
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know what is he in pack of
the Garden of Eden's story on Christian and
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Abraham My theology huge right? I
mean, you know, it's a story
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there's a God that's basically like in
humanoid male and creates a male in his
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image and that's why we are in
God's image. And I mean, you
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know, is that story important to
people's lives. Yeah, I mean my
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computer has a little apple with a
bite out of it. Where did that
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come from? You know, this
is called this is called my Adam's apple.
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Where did that come from? I
mean, these things permeate our lives,
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right, I mean, and even
those basic metaphors, A gat high
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is good. So I'm feeling I'm
high as a kite. I mean,
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you know, if I'm seeing a
bit low today, that's bad. So
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low is bad because of this story. God is up there. In other
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mythic stories, God is down there. That's where the divine is. So
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if you're a good person, you
die, your soul goes down. So
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then down is important. So even
these basic metaphors of like you know,
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colors and time and numbers, and
you know, these miscreate our world.
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Now, there is a story that
isn't almost every, if not every culture
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in the world, which is the
flood story, the Great flood, And
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we can get into that whole lot. Yeah, please, I would love
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to hear. Don't work on it, sure sure number one? Uh No,
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I mean, not every culture in
the world has a flood story.
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So that's that's been just proven over
and over again, and focalist scholarship.
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The other thing is that there are
a lot of flood stories, and when
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you start of these examities, you
notice that they're not the same story.
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The main thing is they have a
flood in them. Uh. And then
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you also notice where these happen in
flood prone areas. So what we see
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is that floods are sort of a
regular, uh at times cataclysmic occurrence to
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a lot of ancient societies and civilizations. Right, they can wipe out entire
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cities, entire peoples. So these
things become remembered and uh, these these
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become a part of the narrative like
where to become from what happened to us?
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The other thing is that this isn't
This is the commonality you often see
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is that when when the horrible things
happen, uh, people want to know
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the reason, Like this wasn't just
random gence. So very often it's like
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why are the gods mad at us? Or why is God mad at us?
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Right? What did we do wrong? Right? So we have that
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the in the Noah story that you
know, mankind is so wicked that God
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decides the story for Betty Noa.
But if you go over the northwest coast.
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You have a lot of these flood
myths. But and this is an
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area with a lot of earthquakes,
have a lot of historically a lot of
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fledge, and so they in these
miss So the idea is that there is
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caused by mountain dwarves dancing. They
have these spirits that are in the in
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the mountains, uh, and they
dance and this causes earthquakes, which causes
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the floods. The tsunamis in this
case right, So it's a different type
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of flood. This is not like
a rainy weather flood. This is a
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flood from a tsunami because of an
earthquake. So in this myth, it
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actually has a lot of important information
too. Right, if you you know,
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if there's an earthquake, watch out
for floods, right, head for
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high ground if it's a big earthquake. This is something good to remember.
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The other thing about it is that
you know, why were these mountain dwarves
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dancing. The idea is that you
usually the people sinned, they did something
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wrong, and you know in a
couple of stories like people beat their dogs
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or something and just upset the mountain
dwarf so much. And so what this
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says, is it also explains things
right, Like, so remember when people
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want to know it's just God's punishment. I remember when the age thing came
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out a lot of the religious right, it's like, this is God's punishment
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for us things right. People often
seek a meaning in disasters, and I
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think it's far scary to think that
there isn't one, that we're just sort
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of at the whims of the universe. I think that's far scarier. People
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want to know. It also then
puts them in control, like we can
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we cannot have another flood if we
just behave better, right. And but
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that's so that's interesting the dancing dwarf
idea, because like to me, I
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mean, obviously that sounds to me
ridiculous that there's giant dancing dwarfs in a
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mountain. But if you start looking
at many of our religious stories and many
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of our spiritual stories, the other
Noah flood story was a big guy in
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the sky, you know, surrounding
everything and every created exactly. Yeah,
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because but he's an all loving bother
figure, So why is he killing everybody
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and judging that he was supposed to
be perfect and then he's supposed to create
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everything perfect but then he got so
bad he had he had almost wipe it
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all out, and then he will
have to wipe it a lot later.
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That's the end, right, right
exactly. So it seems like humanity is
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a general the human experience is that
they need to construct something to make sense
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of the insanity that it is to
live in this realm, in this experience
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of the physical realm and all aspects
throughout history, right, yeah, absolutely,
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I mean what is it to live
and enjoy and everything and know you're
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going to die? It's like,
oh man, So there was a lot
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of stories, a lot of myths
ory like why do people have to die?
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And that's part of the Garden of
Eden story, right, that's the
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Garden of Eating story is actually part
of a wider macro type of stories that
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goes across a lot of Africa and
the Near East, and it's known by
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it It has several different forms,
but it's usually known as the failed Animal
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Messenger, and the idea is that
there's an animal that's supposed to go to
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the Greater deedy and come back with
information of how people will live forever.
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And so the guard Devita story with
a snake in this case is that,
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But another place it's the hair or
a turtle. In one place, it's
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a cat and a dog. Among
the bang of western Africa, it's a
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cat and a dog. They're going
to go to the creator. The cat
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just doesn't really care enough to deliver
the message. He doesn't care enough about
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his people. The dog really does. And he tries to do his best
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job, and he goes and he
gets to command. He's carrying back a
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little scroll in his mouth telling people
how are going to live forever. But
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he's on the way back he sees
a pile of meaty bones and he gets
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distracted and forgets. So, you
know, they try to do the best.
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They just kind of screwed up.
The cat just didn't care enough about
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us. And as anyone who's ever
owned a cat well completely makes that makes
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some police sense. It was like
when you're trying to tell your cat to
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do something. They fetched that's not
so much. So that's actually part of
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the same macro type that goes all
across Africa, and that's part of the
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snake in this case and a lot
now Christians often think the snake that's the
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devil, right doesn't say that in
the Bible is it's just a snake.
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I mean, there is no devil
in the Old Testament. Judaism doesn't have
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a devil. That came later.
We'll be right back after a word from
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our sponsor, and now back to
the show. Yeah, so let me
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ask you about that, because that
that idea of hell and the devil and
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the fallen angel of Satan and you
know, all of this kind of stuff.
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You know, I was. I
was that was exposed to that first
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grade and Catholic school, and I
was terrified, as it's supposed to terrify
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you to be a good person.
Part of it, Yeah, it's part
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of the point. But that meant
the idea of the devil came in in
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the New Testament, if I'm not
mistaken. Yeah, yeah, absolutely,
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there's no there's no devil in Judaism. There's no hell in Judaism. This
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is this is a this is an
import by Christianity. Now, what I
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think is fascinating is that where did
Christianity get this? And I think they
335
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got it mostly from Jurastrianism. So
Jurastrianism is this major it is still a
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major world religion, a huge temple
here in Los Angeles, and this is
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centered in the Persian Empire and then, and it was hugely popular with the
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Roman Empire. The army, so
most of the Roman army. You have
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to remember, most of the Roman
army weren't Romans, right, These were
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captured people from all over the place. So the Roman Army, which is
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a you know, global population,
was occupying Judea during Christ's lifetime and before,
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and they would have largely been Zooastrian. So this would have been sort
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of the main religion of all of
these people living there. And so Zarastianism
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is right next door. Zoastianism has
heaven and hell. Zasterism has good and
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evil, and God is all good
and the devil is all evil and Zerostrium
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Zoastrianism has all of these sort of
elements like the devil and versus God and
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this sort of thing. So the
whole Christian idea that you know, you're
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sort of in between the Devil's trying
to get you and God's trying to get
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you, this is really about from
Zerastrianism more than Judaism. Judaism doesn't have
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that binary like good evil. Greek
mythology would have come after words, if
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I'm not mistaken in the timeline,
correct, that's that's after Christ in the
352
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timeline. Well, no, its
rationalism was around you know, long Greek
353
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Greek mythology. I'm talking about Greek
mythology. Yeah, well that goes back
354
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to that kind of Old Testament times. So there's some overlaps there, right,
355
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So this is all because of Hades. Because of Hades and that kind
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of idea, there's a couple of
there's a couple of points in time when
357
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when Greek and Christian mythology sort of
overlapped, and uh, you know the
358
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early times during the Iron Age period
were a lot of these gods. I
359
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mean, Zeus just means Deus,
right, I mean this just means God,
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right, And his full name is
Zeus Peter, father God who lives
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up on high you know, up
on Mount Leves maybe, but often in
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the clouds. It's it's you know, it's basically the same character, right,
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It's become Jupiter for the Romans.
Zeu's Peter. It's just so people
364
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in Greece, when I'm saying Father
God, is saying Father God. You
365
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know if you think when they converted, right, So this is this is
366
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not this is already a connected sort
of traditions. So can you talk a
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little bit about Zoiasterism, because I'm
not too familiar about I've heard of it,
368
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but I'm not sure. I don't
a lot of the details of it.
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Huge, huge, hugely important religion, one of our major world religions
370
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and started by the prophet Diaster who
kind of cobbled together religion out of whatever
371
00:23:10.279 --> 00:23:14.519
else was there before, and sort
of a monotheistic religion. It is at
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least as monotheistic as Christianity in the
sense that there's a duality, right,
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there's an all good God and there's
an all bad devil, and there's a
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Hell and there's a heaven. Uh. And then you know this is sort
375
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of the personal struggle is between those
two forces. That's our human sort of
376
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struggle here on earth. And again
this sort of laid the groundwork. Okay,
377
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So you remember the Nativity scene in
the Bible, right in the Bible
378
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story where the three Magi, well
Magi was Zastrian priest these through Rasterans,
379
00:23:41.240 --> 00:23:45.839
so you know it was already worked
into that story that Christ's birth was blessed
380
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by the Zoroastrian priest right, So
why was the Rasthrian priests blessed it because
381
00:23:48.960 --> 00:23:53.599
it was very Zoroastrian if you look
at it, and so what what in
382
00:23:53.640 --> 00:24:00.119
the timeline of humanity? Where did
he When did zoasterian Ism start? Is
383
00:24:00.160 --> 00:24:03.119
it before Buddhism, after Buddhism?
Oh uh oh no, it was,
384
00:24:03.160 --> 00:24:04.440
Yeah, it was a genius.
Again, if you go back that far,
385
00:24:04.480 --> 00:24:07.960
that's like early iron Age. The
Drassianism would have been after that,
386
00:24:07.839 --> 00:24:11.319
but before Christianity. Just to kind
of put it in context her, Okay,
387
00:24:11.359 --> 00:24:14.359
you know if you go back your
old test but this is kind of
388
00:24:14.359 --> 00:24:17.519
iron Age stories really, and and
it overlaps with a lot of Irony stories
389
00:24:17.519 --> 00:24:19.480
again that we see in the wider
you know, Mediterranean and in Greece and
390
00:24:19.480 --> 00:24:23.319
stuff like that. There's a planatory
in ancient Greece, right, and it's
391
00:24:23.359 --> 00:24:26.039
pretty much the same flood story as
you just decided to flood everything. And
392
00:24:26.079 --> 00:24:29.920
so these stories, these people were
already connected in a lot of these stories.
393
00:24:29.960 --> 00:24:33.480
And you know, there's iron Age
sort of strong ruler, male ruler
394
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chiefs, and this is this is
you see this in the mythologies that are
395
00:24:36.759 --> 00:24:40.640
emerging at this time. So let
me ask you this because I've heard in
396
00:24:40.640 --> 00:24:45.240
my studies, I've seen that there's
so many different uh A lot of the
397
00:24:45.279 --> 00:24:52.359
same things overlap in other uh deities
or leaders of religions origin stories, and
398
00:24:52.440 --> 00:24:56.599
Jesus a storage story. So if
you look at Buddha and his story,
399
00:24:57.319 --> 00:25:00.839
you know that the councils and I
see it took a couple of things at
400
00:25:00.920 --> 00:25:06.759
least at least it looks like a
lot of elements from that very different story.
401
00:25:06.839 --> 00:25:10.319
So again, I'm not a big
fan of the Chambellian the Campbell's idea
402
00:25:10.359 --> 00:25:11.400
that there's all the same story or
something, because there there's a lot of
403
00:25:11.480 --> 00:25:15.240
differences. So you know, Buddoo
was born rich, right, he was
404
00:25:15.240 --> 00:25:18.400
born a prince, you know,
or Jesus was born a pauper. You
405
00:25:18.440 --> 00:25:22.240
know, these are very different origin
stories where I do see a lot of
406
00:25:22.279 --> 00:25:26.119
overlapses, like again the ones that
was sort of the next to these areas.
407
00:25:26.160 --> 00:25:33.319
So Jesus his story really parallels O
cirus from the Egyptian and osirus is
408
00:25:33.319 --> 00:25:36.680
an interesting day to look. You
know, Egypt had been around for a
409
00:25:36.680 --> 00:25:38.079
long long time, thousands of years, right, this is the center of
410
00:25:38.079 --> 00:25:42.480
civilization for so long, and if
you look at Egyptian mythology over time,
411
00:25:42.599 --> 00:25:45.559
there's some really fun changes if you
go to the way back stuff, it's
412
00:25:45.599 --> 00:25:51.359
almost all animal gods or or you
know, human animal hybrid gods. As
413
00:25:51.400 --> 00:25:53.359
it goes later in time, you
start having more humans sort of take over
414
00:25:53.400 --> 00:25:56.960
these roles. So Cyrus starts becoming
the main god of death. He's the
415
00:25:57.000 --> 00:26:02.119
one that judges people in and by
the time you get up towards this time
416
00:26:02.160 --> 00:26:03.799
period, you have the day of
judgment, right, So when you die
417
00:26:03.920 --> 00:26:07.160
in the Egyptian stuff, you get
judged at a day of judgment and either
418
00:26:07.240 --> 00:26:11.160
you go on to heaven or you
get obliterated forever, not tortured forever like
419
00:26:11.200 --> 00:26:15.480
hell. But you know, same
kind of basic idea. So we have
420
00:26:15.599 --> 00:26:19.599
a lot in Christianity and Abrahamic religions
from you know, for I get where
421
00:26:19.680 --> 00:26:23.759
where did abraham religions start? Right? Where did where did Abraham start?
422
00:26:23.799 --> 00:26:30.359
Where? With Abraham converted to monotheism
in Egypt. So these are all very
423
00:26:30.440 --> 00:26:33.920
very connected streams. And again you're
probably familiar with you know, I'm a
424
00:26:33.000 --> 00:26:38.279
Hotep and slash Aconatan, right,
So this is the Egyptian pharaoh that basically
425
00:26:38.319 --> 00:26:44.079
abandoned the old Egyptian pantheon and probably
in order to claim more power for himself,
426
00:26:44.119 --> 00:26:45.640
but maybe he was a believer and
to institute a new religion that was
427
00:26:45.720 --> 00:26:49.480
essentially a monotheistic watch this is kind
of the first monotheism, uh. And
428
00:26:49.559 --> 00:26:52.079
the main emblem was the sun.
And then he was going to be the
429
00:26:52.119 --> 00:26:56.960
pope as well as sort of problem
being right, So it's a way of
430
00:26:56.000 --> 00:27:00.279
consolidating power probably, but this is
you know, so this was going on,
431
00:27:00.400 --> 00:27:03.680
and he even constructed a new capital
in the southern part of Egypt.
432
00:27:03.759 --> 00:27:07.039
Who houses it only lasted his lifetime. After he died, there was a
433
00:27:07.079 --> 00:27:11.759
revolution and they put the boy King
Tut in Common on the throne, right
434
00:27:11.880 --> 00:27:15.559
King Tut, who is a sort
of not that great, not that impressive
435
00:27:15.559 --> 00:27:18.400
of an individual, and then restored
the old religion. But you know,
436
00:27:18.440 --> 00:27:22.960
these religious ideas were already bubbling around. And so again this is where Judaism
437
00:27:23.000 --> 00:27:27.440
starts right in Egypt, right with
Abram gets converted the monotheism in Egypt.
438
00:27:29.000 --> 00:27:33.920
Moses means priest in Egyptian at this
time, so you know, there's a
439
00:27:33.920 --> 00:27:36.440
lot of these ideas that then get
transferred. A lot of the psalms and
440
00:27:36.480 --> 00:27:41.400
the proverbs seemed to come from Akinatan's
temples, so there's there's an impact early
441
00:27:41.480 --> 00:27:45.920
on, and then Osiris is becoming
the big god. And Osiris his story
442
00:27:45.960 --> 00:27:49.440
is very much like Jesus history.
Right, He's killed right around when he's
443
00:27:49.440 --> 00:27:56.640
thirty by kind of by the evil
Satan underwater demons set and then not by
444
00:27:56.640 --> 00:28:00.119
the Romans, but and then gets
resurrected, brought back to life. And
445
00:28:00.160 --> 00:28:06.000
so even though you know his birthday
is Osirius's birthday was often given as the
446
00:28:06.160 --> 00:28:11.759
winter solstice or right around Christmas,
and his rebirth was usually at the spring
447
00:28:11.759 --> 00:28:15.240
Equinoc, which is, you know, sort of Easter. So you know
448
00:28:15.319 --> 00:28:18.880
the these these stories are very very
similar. And again Osiris is the god
449
00:28:18.880 --> 00:28:22.960
who the young god who died and
brought back to life. Interestingly enough,
450
00:28:22.000 --> 00:28:26.680
he had set kind up of his
body into thirteenth parts, but his sister
451
00:28:26.759 --> 00:28:30.960
Isis resurrected him, but you only
found twelve. You never found the thirteenth
452
00:28:30.039 --> 00:28:34.440
part. The thirteenth part was his
penis. And so he comes across now
453
00:28:34.480 --> 00:28:38.200
as sort of this asexual god.
Right, he doesn't he doesn't have sex,
454
00:28:38.279 --> 00:28:42.640
he doesn't marry, he doesn't produce
airors, and so there's a lot
455
00:28:42.640 --> 00:28:47.799
of sort of overlaps between in fact
Osiris and Jesus often shared some of their
456
00:28:48.079 --> 00:28:52.599
same temples early on were sort of
Osiris slash Jesus temples, So there was
457
00:28:52.640 --> 00:28:55.720
a lot of overlaps between the Jesus
story and the Osiris story. It's probably
458
00:28:55.799 --> 00:29:00.839
very influenced by it. Now you
mentioned the kind of like animal god hybrids
459
00:29:00.880 --> 00:29:06.039
of humans that seems to be very
common throughout multiple cultures around the world,
460
00:29:06.039 --> 00:29:11.160
from Native American, from Egypt,
from Greece, you know, god,
461
00:29:11.680 --> 00:29:15.039
I'm not sure about Roman times,
but there's there's so many especially in the
462
00:29:15.039 --> 00:29:21.240
the UK and the in that area
of you know, Narnia, uh,
463
00:29:22.160 --> 00:29:26.119
that kind of stuff. It's it's
phenomenon and for those that do and those
464
00:29:26.119 --> 00:29:29.720
that don't, you can also tease
out some interesting differences. So h and
465
00:29:29.759 --> 00:29:32.160
again you can look at this over
time. So Egypt is a great case
466
00:29:32.160 --> 00:29:33.759
study in this. They start off
with like animal gods and then become kind
467
00:29:33.759 --> 00:29:37.559
of human animal gods, and then
by the end they're pretty much human gods.
468
00:29:37.119 --> 00:29:41.799
So and what you I don't really
know. My hypothesis is that,
469
00:29:41.880 --> 00:29:44.519
like you know, people that are
living in subsistence lifestyles, they're out there
470
00:29:44.559 --> 00:29:47.920
interacting with these animals kind of on
a one to one basis, right,
471
00:29:48.000 --> 00:29:52.519
these are free animals or not domesticated
animals. Uh, then you you see
472
00:29:52.559 --> 00:29:56.599
them as important sort of you know, spiritual forces, and that becomes worked
473
00:29:56.640 --> 00:29:59.119
into your stories. So Native Americans, you know, they have a lot
474
00:29:59.119 --> 00:30:03.039
of the stories about the animal deities. And then but if you get to
475
00:30:03.039 --> 00:30:06.759
the farming cultures where it's all a
lot of people and it's all just people,
476
00:30:06.759 --> 00:30:10.480
people, people, and maybe some
controlled animals, then people start,
477
00:30:10.480 --> 00:30:12.720
I think, thinking about more like
people. Right, you're ruled by a
478
00:30:12.839 --> 00:30:15.599
king, So is there a kind
of a human like king that rules over
479
00:30:15.640 --> 00:30:19.720
the universe? Right? Uh?
And so again you can really tease out
480
00:30:19.720 --> 00:30:23.920
different cultures, like in India,
you know they have some animal hybrid gods,
481
00:30:23.960 --> 00:30:29.559
but not many. Right, they're
there. They're mostly human gods with
482
00:30:29.680 --> 00:30:33.960
a couple of interesting exceptions. We'll
be right back after a word from our
483
00:30:33.960 --> 00:30:44.240
sponsor, and now back to the
show. And in Greece there are all
484
00:30:44.319 --> 00:30:47.480
human gods except for like maybe Pan, who is not one of the Olympian
485
00:30:47.480 --> 00:30:51.519
gods and who is not part of
that tribe. Right, was Pan's a
486
00:30:51.519 --> 00:30:53.559
fascinating character, right? I think
it's the most important Greek got out there,
487
00:30:53.599 --> 00:30:57.200
and probably the most widely worshiped over
time and over space, but you
488
00:30:57.240 --> 00:31:02.319
hardly ever read about them because the
city people's gods would have been the human
489
00:31:02.319 --> 00:31:04.240
gods, and those are the ones
who were writing stuff down. Fascinating.
490
00:31:04.480 --> 00:31:08.440
Now there is a big myth of
that I'd love to hear your point of
491
00:31:08.480 --> 00:31:15.839
view on. It is Atlantis that
has just captivated us as humans ever since
492
00:31:15.880 --> 00:31:21.640
Plato wrote about it, probably long
before and probably long before, but from
493
00:31:21.680 --> 00:31:25.599
the point of us in Western society, Plato is the origin story of that
494
00:31:25.799 --> 00:31:29.640
which from my understanding, he wasn't
the ogy, No, it was,
495
00:31:29.680 --> 00:31:32.920
yeah, his uncle. His uncle
went over to Egypt, the couple priests
496
00:31:32.960 --> 00:31:36.480
told them about and so on.
Where do you what's your point of view
497
00:31:36.519 --> 00:31:40.559
on Atlantis? What does it mean
for us as a as a species,
498
00:31:40.839 --> 00:31:42.599
and what does this story mean to
us? Because it's we're still talking about
499
00:31:42.599 --> 00:31:47.440
it in twenty twenty three, that's
what. It's a fun mystery, right,
500
00:31:47.559 --> 00:31:49.279
something everybody can sort of share and
it doesn't matter your political views or
501
00:31:49.319 --> 00:31:52.400
anything. We could all talk about
Atlantis, right. It's a very sort
502
00:31:52.440 --> 00:31:55.400
of neutral and fun topic. It'd
be great if they ever discovered it,
503
00:31:55.480 --> 00:31:56.680
like you know, it would be
a great sort of morning news story.
504
00:31:56.799 --> 00:32:00.400
You know, divers think they have
found the loss continent of Atlantis. You
505
00:32:00.400 --> 00:32:04.599
know that'd be lovely, right,
So it's very useful in terms of you
506
00:32:04.599 --> 00:32:07.359
know, how we live our lives. And but if you if you try
507
00:32:07.400 --> 00:32:08.599
to trace back, like you know, where does this come from and how
508
00:32:08.599 --> 00:32:13.839
true it might be, that's a
fascinating story too. So Allway knows that
509
00:32:13.920 --> 00:32:19.640
one sort of textual thing from Plato, but he says very clearly, like
510
00:32:19.680 --> 00:32:22.279
this is a big story in Egypt. This is this is their origin story,
511
00:32:22.319 --> 00:32:24.960
right, This is according to them, where they came from. Before
512
00:32:25.000 --> 00:32:30.319
they came to Egypt, they were
in Atlantas, and so that this is
513
00:32:30.359 --> 00:32:34.240
their sort of So this is a
very important story for the ancient Egypt Egyptians,
514
00:32:34.400 --> 00:32:37.079
according to Plato. So that's important. So this is going back to
515
00:32:37.119 --> 00:32:40.400
whatever Asian Egypt Egyptian story was.
We don't know their Atlanta's story, but
516
00:32:40.440 --> 00:32:44.759
we know it was something like later
to describe he was very careful. There
517
00:32:44.759 --> 00:32:46.599
were are there were a lot of
contacts now between Egypt and Greece, so
518
00:32:46.880 --> 00:32:50.480
he would have been very careful to
report this accurately. Right, People were
519
00:32:50.480 --> 00:32:54.839
coming back and forth, and so
we know that this was a very very
520
00:32:55.160 --> 00:32:59.880
tremendously important story to ancient Egypt with
a very very sacred origin story that they'd
521
00:33:00.160 --> 00:33:02.960
be treasured for a long long time, perhaps thousands of years, given the
522
00:33:04.160 --> 00:33:07.359
you know, the length of the
Egyptian culture. So that becomes interesting,
523
00:33:07.480 --> 00:33:10.279
right that we know that they believed
in it and that they had maintained this
524
00:33:10.400 --> 00:33:14.400
story as a valuable story for a
long time. Now, was it just
525
00:33:14.440 --> 00:33:17.160
a myth right for them, like
some kind of creation story? Maybe,
526
00:33:17.240 --> 00:33:22.960
but it seems very specific, like
exactly what size it was and this sort
527
00:33:22.000 --> 00:33:25.519
of thing. Could it have been
like one of an island in the Mediterranean
528
00:33:25.559 --> 00:33:29.279
that you know, sank beneath the
seed during one of the main and earthquake.
529
00:33:29.319 --> 00:33:31.559
Sure, right, And maybe some
people sattle maybe it's kind of related
530
00:33:31.559 --> 00:33:35.839
to the Minoa and civilization that got
you know, kind of battered by the
531
00:33:35.839 --> 00:33:38.480
earthquakes. Maybe it doesn't quite seem
to fit, you know, there's little
532
00:33:38.519 --> 00:33:43.119
traces like the Atlas Mountains, right, and they said it was out by
533
00:33:43.119 --> 00:33:45.880
the Straits of Gibraltar, and maybe
it was. Maybe there was some mistranslation,
534
00:33:46.440 --> 00:33:50.559
but then they have the Atlas Mountains
and then the Berber people up there
535
00:33:50.599 --> 00:33:53.799
tell stories about Atlanta, so maybe
there's out there. Some people suggested that
536
00:33:53.839 --> 00:33:57.519
it's a it wasn't really the sea, that it was actually the Sahara,
537
00:33:57.559 --> 00:33:59.880
which is an interesting suggestion. Yeah, that's a new way I've seen.
538
00:34:00.160 --> 00:34:04.359
It used to be lush and this
is we do know that ancient Egyptian civilizations
539
00:34:04.400 --> 00:34:07.119
seems to have come from the Sahara. Right, so you got these This
540
00:34:07.199 --> 00:34:09.639
used to be a lust thing.
This is one of the cradles of mankind
541
00:34:09.760 --> 00:34:15.840
before it turned into a vast desert. And what archaeologists and stuff have tendants
542
00:34:15.840 --> 00:34:21.119
suggested that this was to start when
the Egyptians moved into the Nile. They
543
00:34:21.119 --> 00:34:24.159
were already pretty set up as a
culture, so they came from somewhere,
544
00:34:24.199 --> 00:34:28.320
and it makes sense that they would
have come from the Sahara as it turned
545
00:34:28.320 --> 00:34:31.039
into a desert and could no longer
support large farming civilizations. Well, let
546
00:34:31.039 --> 00:34:36.599
me ask you this, what is
your feeling on the human timeline, because
547
00:34:36.639 --> 00:34:39.920
the timeline seems to be moving a
lot lately with and when I say lately,
548
00:34:39.920 --> 00:34:43.760
in the last fifty or sixty years, where you know, what I
549
00:34:43.880 --> 00:34:45.440
was, what I was taught in
school was like, oh, Egypt said
550
00:34:45.440 --> 00:34:50.000
six thousand years old, maybe seven
thousand years old. But now something like
551
00:34:50.039 --> 00:34:52.039
a Beckley Teppe shows up and they're
like, well, that's thirteen thousand years
552
00:34:52.039 --> 00:34:58.000
old. That's a great example.
Yeah, that's well lovely, that's lovely,
553
00:34:58.079 --> 00:35:01.800
not just age, but because these
were like civilizational structures that were set
554
00:35:01.840 --> 00:35:07.000
up by hunter gatherers. Right,
we're not frement culture right, right,
555
00:35:07.039 --> 00:35:10.440
So we long had this idea that
that's you know, okay, hunter gatherers
556
00:35:10.440 --> 00:35:14.599
and you get agriculture and they build
cities, and it's not that easy.
557
00:35:14.679 --> 00:35:16.079
It's much more complex than that.
So it really points to a lot of
558
00:35:16.159 --> 00:35:21.880
the interesting cultural complexity. And some
of these cultures lasted thousands of years,
559
00:35:21.880 --> 00:35:23.519
even going back to the Paleolithic.
I was just reading the other day.
560
00:35:23.599 --> 00:35:28.639
They can determine these different Paleolithic cultures
due to the different artifacts and the clothing
561
00:35:28.639 --> 00:35:32.400
styles and jewelry styles that people would
have been wearing that lasted for thousands of
562
00:35:32.480 --> 00:35:36.880
years, right until climate change or
whatnot. Yeah, so there's something like
563
00:35:36.880 --> 00:35:38.320
Apecletepe. You look at what they
were doing there, and you like,
564
00:35:38.360 --> 00:35:45.280
look at the sophistication of what they
did. That's not hunter gather sophistication.
565
00:35:45.840 --> 00:35:49.920
It seems like okay, well we
think of hunter gatherers are just going out
566
00:35:49.960 --> 00:35:52.400
and there's the classic hunter gatherers,
right, small rabatic band chasing every that
567
00:35:52.639 --> 00:35:57.119
works. But you also get hunter
gatherers that you know, have a lot
568
00:35:57.159 --> 00:36:00.400
of spare food, right, So
like a look at the Northwest coast groups
569
00:36:00.719 --> 00:36:02.280
they had salmon and then they would
smoke it. So there are hunter gatherers,
570
00:36:02.320 --> 00:36:07.239
but they would have food storage and
so they could host large villages,
571
00:36:07.360 --> 00:36:09.400
large cities, They could have division
of labor, they had you know,
572
00:36:09.679 --> 00:36:14.039
craftsmen that could work for as a
craftsman or not hunter gatherers. Right,
573
00:36:14.360 --> 00:36:20.159
they did amazing huge constructions while we
labeled them hunter gatherers. So not all
574
00:36:20.239 --> 00:36:24.599
hunter gatherers a classic small band group. So then in your opinion, though,
575
00:36:24.679 --> 00:36:30.000
how old do you think the Egyptian
culture really truly is based on these
576
00:36:30.039 --> 00:36:34.320
others coming up? Yeah, well
it depends how far back you want to
577
00:36:34.360 --> 00:36:36.599
trace it, right. I mean
what we say is Egypt is now we
578
00:36:36.639 --> 00:36:39.920
think of this as this country or
this area. But the Egyptian culture again
579
00:36:40.360 --> 00:36:44.119
a lot of archaeologists is that when
you sort of seeing this stuff in the
580
00:36:44.239 --> 00:36:49.119
early period along the Nile, it
seems already pretty you know, set up
581
00:36:49.119 --> 00:36:53.119
as a culture right as a package
comes into the right. So that's interesting.
582
00:36:53.599 --> 00:36:57.960
And again quite know where they came
from, but a good guest would
583
00:36:57.960 --> 00:37:00.679
be the Sahara. You know,
early Elythics cultures in the Sahara. You
584
00:37:00.719 --> 00:37:04.880
know, to look at the Megalithic
culture, which is something I've been fascinated
585
00:37:04.920 --> 00:37:08.599
with Western Europe and Ireland and all
these megalithic societies and structures and some of
586
00:37:08.719 --> 00:37:12.559
and there's some of the earliest seemed
to be in the middle of the Sahara
587
00:37:12.639 --> 00:37:15.920
Desert, which was apparently, like
you said, lush, you know,
588
00:37:15.079 --> 00:37:20.079
thousands and thousands and thousands, because
you can't you really can't build a society
589
00:37:20.119 --> 00:37:22.920
around in the desert like that,
not that size you no, you know,
590
00:37:23.159 --> 00:37:27.920
it was lush. This is an
incredibly lush environment where the Russian environments
591
00:37:27.960 --> 00:37:30.840
on Earth was the Sahara. So
this is we know that there was some
592
00:37:30.920 --> 00:37:34.320
big civilizations living. It's fast.
It is truly fascinating. You know.
593
00:37:34.320 --> 00:37:37.599
What I always find really interesting is
that no matter where we are in the
594
00:37:37.719 --> 00:37:43.320
history of humanity, man always thinks
they have it figured out. Uh that
595
00:37:43.440 --> 00:37:45.719
they're like, no, no,
this is the story trying to figure it
596
00:37:45.760 --> 00:37:46.320
out, right, No, no, but like you know, like you
597
00:37:46.360 --> 00:37:50.000
know, during the Greek times,
like as Zeus, obviously it's Zeus,
598
00:37:50.039 --> 00:37:52.320
there's no other way. And during
you know, Egyptian times, it's raw
599
00:37:52.599 --> 00:37:55.840
or it's you know, it's Osiriuses. And that was interesting when it falls
600
00:37:55.880 --> 00:38:00.320
apart too. You know, right
when did ancient Greece stop believing in their
601
00:38:00.320 --> 00:38:01.840
gods? Right? Plato didn't believe, he wasn't a Christian or anything,
602
00:38:01.880 --> 00:38:06.239
but he didn't believe in the old
gods, right, he didn't believe in
603
00:38:06.320 --> 00:38:07.440
what he called myth. In fact, you know, we get our word
604
00:38:07.519 --> 00:38:10.320
myth from ancient Greece, and so
early on, you know, some of
605
00:38:10.360 --> 00:38:15.079
these people were questioning the rationality of
these religions. People were taken very seriously.
606
00:38:15.280 --> 00:38:19.840
This is really we're Athena's unded to
heaven or whatever, and they were
607
00:38:19.840 --> 00:38:23.000
put to death right for being heretics, all right, So you know,
608
00:38:23.119 --> 00:38:25.639
it was a very contentious thing.
And it was only sort of later that
609
00:38:27.280 --> 00:38:32.320
Greek civilization sort of okayed, you
know, atheism and disbelief. Yeah.
610
00:38:32.320 --> 00:38:36.519
And now, I mean, obviously
with the war with the world as it
611
00:38:36.639 --> 00:38:40.559
is now, there's such a free
exchange of information because of the digital age.
612
00:38:40.800 --> 00:38:45.440
What is your opinion of how this
is affecting folklore? And I know
613
00:38:45.519 --> 00:38:50.519
this is one of your favorite topics. Oh so how how does how does
614
00:38:50.599 --> 00:38:54.320
the digital age the internet and how
folklore is being created myth is being created
615
00:38:54.800 --> 00:38:58.440
using these new tools? Oh well, yeah, it's huge, right.
616
00:38:58.480 --> 00:39:00.920
The Internet is totally transformed our call. So this is one of the biggest
617
00:39:00.960 --> 00:39:02.719
things to happen in human culture.
I think it's bigger than the printing press,
618
00:39:02.760 --> 00:39:06.480
which gave us literacy in the nation, state and office. It's one
619
00:39:06.519 --> 00:39:08.400
of the biggest things to happen in
human culture ever, maybe since the invention
620
00:39:08.480 --> 00:39:12.159
of agriculture. Right, so this
is going to change it as a species.
621
00:39:12.760 --> 00:39:15.360
And yeah, I already like,
you know, my former self,
622
00:39:15.400 --> 00:39:20.159
my twenty year old self, would
not understand my current self, Like it's
623
00:39:20.199 --> 00:39:22.159
a different language. Like you're talking
about his broadband and his Wi Fi and
624
00:39:22.239 --> 00:39:25.519
his download speed for streaming, Like
what is this guy? You know?
625
00:39:27.119 --> 00:39:30.559
You would be incomprehensible to my earlier
self. And so I look at my
626
00:39:30.639 --> 00:39:35.000
students. Now I'm getting these students
down the twenty eiest and stuff. They've
627
00:39:35.039 --> 00:39:37.840
been on broadband their whole lives,
most of them, right, And so
628
00:39:37.159 --> 00:39:39.559
that means that they've been sort of
anywhere in the world at any time,
629
00:39:39.800 --> 00:39:44.920
talking to anybody in the world at
any time, and as normal for them.
630
00:39:45.360 --> 00:39:47.360
And you know, and and I
remember what it was before then,
631
00:39:47.559 --> 00:39:52.760
right, right, just talk to
anybody in the world at any time.
632
00:39:52.159 --> 00:39:54.920
So, yeah, that's going to
absolutely change all of our foot There's just
633
00:39:54.960 --> 00:39:58.320
a lot of folk I mean folklore. You know, when I went into
634
00:39:58.320 --> 00:40:01.639
grad school, folklore was antiquated discipline. It was fading away in the face
635
00:40:01.679 --> 00:40:06.159
of modernity. And by the time
I extra to graduate school, folklore was
636
00:40:06.159 --> 00:40:08.360
like cutting edge. Right, there's
all this art that doesn't have writer an
637
00:40:08.440 --> 00:40:12.280
author. What is this stuff?
You know, how do you analyze you
638
00:40:12.360 --> 00:40:15.159
know, memes? And Folklore's like, yep, no problem is what we
639
00:40:15.280 --> 00:40:16.960
do, right, We'll show you
how you do it. So we're in
640
00:40:17.000 --> 00:40:22.519
a much more folkloric age now than
we have been since at least the development
641
00:40:22.599 --> 00:40:23.840
of the printing press. I would
say, right, this is the most
642
00:40:23.920 --> 00:40:29.360
of our culture is very folkloric in
nature. And it's also like again changing
643
00:40:29.400 --> 00:40:30.239
our notion of what it is to
be, what it to be, you
644
00:40:30.280 --> 00:40:36.800
know, the under thirty five crowd
they're not really very religious in the sense
645
00:40:36.880 --> 00:40:39.719
that, right, spiritual but not
religious. This is the overwhelming thing.
646
00:40:39.800 --> 00:40:43.599
So they're not going to sign up
for a denomination, like denominations are plummeting,
647
00:40:43.760 --> 00:40:49.320
right, But it's not that they're
not spiritual. We'll be right back
648
00:40:49.519 --> 00:40:58.119
after a word from our sponsor and
now back to the show. But what
649
00:40:58.239 --> 00:41:00.679
it is is that they're tapping into
all this stuff for around the world.
650
00:41:00.800 --> 00:41:02.719
Right, you don't have to stick
with your your one hometown's religion. It
651
00:41:02.760 --> 00:41:06.639
comes from a small town and we're
a Baptist down or we're a Lutheran town.
652
00:41:07.119 --> 00:41:08.000
You can pick from all the world. Right, So people a kind
653
00:41:08.039 --> 00:41:10.719
of it's this smorgasborgo fet like,
yeah, I like that karma idea,
654
00:41:12.280 --> 00:41:15.280
you know. And then but incarnation, Yeah maybe I reincarnation. I like
655
00:41:15.360 --> 00:41:20.519
that Native American animal stuff, and
I like I like the karma, you
656
00:41:20.599 --> 00:41:23.320
know. And so they're crafting this
whole new sort of spiritual universe on a
657
00:41:23.360 --> 00:41:28.440
global scale, which is just phenomenal
to witness in real time. And then
658
00:41:28.480 --> 00:41:30.760
with us comes a lot of wacky
beliefs. I have to say, like
659
00:41:30.840 --> 00:41:34.079
the whole you know, extraterrestrial belief
that this is really moved. You know,
660
00:41:34.159 --> 00:41:36.159
for a lot of people, maybe
legendary, like maybe it's true,
661
00:41:36.199 --> 00:41:37.599
maybe it's not like like sasquats,
But for a lot of people, this
662
00:41:37.760 --> 00:41:42.000
is like this is this is this
is myth, this is sacred stuff,
663
00:41:42.079 --> 00:41:44.440
like we just has something to do
with who we are, like we are
664
00:41:44.519 --> 00:41:49.440
part star people or something, and
we're not really earthlings or something. This
665
00:41:49.599 --> 00:41:52.159
is a huge new sort of religious
development. The other new religious development is
666
00:41:52.239 --> 00:41:55.679
just sort of kind of goes hand
in hand sometimes and that's the you know,
667
00:41:55.800 --> 00:42:00.599
transhumanism. We're gonna be able to
upload our consciousness of the club live
668
00:42:00.639 --> 00:42:04.599
forever in a video game environment.
Number one. I don't I don't think
669
00:42:04.679 --> 00:42:07.199
so, right, I don't think
it works that way. I don't believe
670
00:42:07.239 --> 00:42:10.559
we can separate consciousness from our body
in any sort of computer generated way.
671
00:42:12.880 --> 00:42:15.039
You know, we like to think
that there's this mind, we have a
672
00:42:15.360 --> 00:42:17.599
let's look at that word, like
a mind. What is a mind?
673
00:42:17.719 --> 00:42:22.360
And it's basically the same word as
soul, right, because you know,
674
00:42:22.599 --> 00:42:24.880
what is your mind? Can you
has anybody ever seen a mind? Way
675
00:42:24.960 --> 00:42:30.199
to mind? You know? Is
it a metaphor you know you say,
676
00:42:30.280 --> 00:42:31.639
oh you know you have a mind. I have a mind. Really,
677
00:42:32.719 --> 00:42:36.639
I have neurons, synapses, I
have a brain. Is that what you
678
00:42:36.719 --> 00:42:39.880
mean a mind? No? Not
really right? So you know this,
679
00:42:40.280 --> 00:42:45.000
I think the move now is away
from this Cartesian view set up by Renee
680
00:42:45.039 --> 00:42:49.639
de Carda's mind body split. We
know that's not quite true, and towards
681
00:42:49.679 --> 00:42:52.480
this idea of you know, embodied
consciousness, that it really it is our
682
00:42:52.599 --> 00:42:58.360
synapses and neurons and stuff that is
that is producing this effect, at least
683
00:42:58.360 --> 00:43:00.519
at least for our experience of it. So you can't sort of separate out
684
00:43:00.559 --> 00:43:04.760
your consciousness from your biology. I'll
give you a real simple example, right.
685
00:43:05.440 --> 00:43:07.440
I like to have a little bit
of yogurt every day in the morning,
686
00:43:07.800 --> 00:43:10.719
probiotic. And one of the reasons
is that it's been shound that if
687
00:43:12.119 --> 00:43:15.000
you have little probiotic yogurt it lowers
your stress levels. I take it a
688
00:43:15.079 --> 00:43:19.559
value and they've done nice test to
show that this is really very very effective.
689
00:43:19.800 --> 00:43:23.280
And the reason is because probiotic stuff
is little micros. They live in
690
00:43:23.320 --> 00:43:28.119
your gut and they interact with you. So when I say, oh,
691
00:43:28.400 --> 00:43:30.239
you know this is my mind,
I don't mind. I'm not stressed,
692
00:43:30.559 --> 00:43:32.519
right, or something like this.
Well, part of it. It's those
693
00:43:32.559 --> 00:43:36.880
little guys living in my gut.
I'm not going to be able to upload
694
00:43:36.960 --> 00:43:39.079
that, you know. I can't
take those little guys with me. Right.
695
00:43:39.159 --> 00:43:43.840
So that is how we experience the
world is even through other organisms besides
696
00:43:43.880 --> 00:43:46.119
Homo sapien sapient organisms. Right,
there's a lot of stuff in here that's
697
00:43:46.199 --> 00:43:52.920
not human DNA. Oh no,
environment, Oh absolutely are and this is
698
00:43:52.960 --> 00:43:57.119
possible how we think, right,
these are little organisms in here. Have
699
00:43:57.199 --> 00:44:00.440
you heard of toxoplasmos gandhi. This
is my new project. No, I
700
00:44:00.519 --> 00:44:04.880
haven't heard that one though, right, right, So Toxoplasmis gandhi is a
701
00:44:06.239 --> 00:44:09.760
little parasite. About one third of
the people in the world might be caring
702
00:44:09.840 --> 00:44:14.400
us in their brain. A lot
of people are asymptomatic. But for those
703
00:44:14.440 --> 00:44:20.440
who become symptomatic cosmoplasmosis, once you
get past the initial effects, it tends
704
00:44:20.440 --> 00:44:24.480
to make people just a little bit
more reckless. So that can be bad,
705
00:44:24.559 --> 00:44:28.519
that can be good. It seems
to be tied to like entrepreneurship,
706
00:44:28.599 --> 00:44:31.599
starting your own business. I must
have it. I must have it then,
707
00:44:31.679 --> 00:44:35.679
sir, right, just sort of
you know those who like to live
708
00:44:35.760 --> 00:44:38.599
on the edge, right, So
that's it's a significant portion of humanity,
709
00:44:38.760 --> 00:44:42.000
and I'm probably infected. I don't
know, Okay, you know, I
710
00:44:42.400 --> 00:44:45.719
sort of haven't had the little,
you know, cloistered life, and so
711
00:44:45.760 --> 00:44:47.800
you know, if you are one
of those people, there's a very good
712
00:44:47.880 --> 00:44:52.440
chance that you may think that's you, and it is. But part of
713
00:44:52.519 --> 00:44:55.480
you is this little parasite you have
in your brain. We got just mostly
714
00:44:55.519 --> 00:44:59.679
from domestic cats, by the way, So cultures that have a lot of
715
00:44:59.719 --> 00:45:02.239
the mess the cats have more of
this, and therefore more have more reckless
716
00:45:02.239 --> 00:45:07.440
individuals. You know. That produces
heroes, that produces fools, that produces
717
00:45:07.639 --> 00:45:13.920
you know, innovators, innovators leaders, because you got to be I mean,
718
00:45:13.920 --> 00:45:15.000
you got to be a little crazy
to do certain things. You know,
719
00:45:15.119 --> 00:45:17.960
in life, those who are successful
and those who die young both,
720
00:45:19.119 --> 00:45:22.639
right, I mean, that's the
same crown. Hopefully you can balance it
721
00:45:22.719 --> 00:45:29.719
between the two somewhere, hopefully.
So I wanted to go back to what
722
00:45:29.800 --> 00:45:35.039
you said earlier, that religion really
is is just going down from more than
723
00:45:35.119 --> 00:45:38.719
when I was born, you know, generally speaking, generally speaking, especially
724
00:45:39.320 --> 00:45:45.280
originally I was born into Catholicism.
Over the last thirty years, you mean,
725
00:45:45.320 --> 00:45:47.039
the numbers in the churches are starting
to just go down, down,
726
00:45:47.199 --> 00:45:52.400
down, And you're right, these
new new generation coming up, they're just
727
00:45:52.519 --> 00:45:54.920
like, what this this doesn't make
any sense. You know, when I
728
00:45:55.079 --> 00:45:58.519
set yourself to one little, one
little pirate, right, when there's this
729
00:45:58.559 --> 00:46:01.800
whole global mortispoort, right, And
because there's so much more information coming in
730
00:46:01.960 --> 00:46:05.800
and I never thought of it that
way, but you're absolutely right. There's
731
00:46:05.880 --> 00:46:08.920
so much more knowledge before the people
who would like to be born, let's
732
00:46:08.920 --> 00:46:14.719
say Catholic, and then one day
in a bookstore happened to run across a
733
00:46:14.800 --> 00:46:17.400
book about a yogi or or the
Bagadavita or something like that, and go,
734
00:46:17.559 --> 00:46:21.599
oh what, But now maybe that's
it? And then you switch over.
735
00:46:22.000 --> 00:46:23.239
Yeah, instead, now they're just
taking a little bits and pieces from
736
00:46:23.239 --> 00:46:28.320
all these differ But now it's but
now it's that information is so ingrained in
737
00:46:28.559 --> 00:46:31.199
our culture. I mean a lot
of people know about karma, about reincarnation.
738
00:46:31.320 --> 00:46:37.880
Those were revolutionary ideas one hundred years
ago in the West, revolutionary ideas.
739
00:46:37.239 --> 00:46:39.000
So where do we think, where
do you think this is going to
740
00:46:39.000 --> 00:46:42.400
go in one hundred years from now, two hundred years from now. Yeah,
741
00:46:42.519 --> 00:46:45.280
isn't it fascinating? Because again,
we're sitting seeing we're right on the
742
00:46:45.320 --> 00:46:49.360
cusp of the biggest transformation that humanity's
probably ever gone through, and not many
743
00:46:49.400 --> 00:46:52.880
people have in history been able to
say that. So this is a tremendously
744
00:46:52.960 --> 00:46:54.880
interesting time to be, you know, looking at this and watching this and
745
00:46:55.199 --> 00:46:59.840
wondering about where all this is headed, because it's going to be radically different.
746
00:47:00.079 --> 00:47:02.079
One of the predictions I make is
my grandchildren probably won't read and write,
747
00:47:04.280 --> 00:47:07.039
you know what, And that's not
a that's not too far fetched because
748
00:47:07.079 --> 00:47:10.079
I'm looking at I'm looking at Ai
right now, and I'm going so wait
749
00:47:10.079 --> 00:47:15.159
a minute. One of my predictions
is I don't think the web is going
750
00:47:15.239 --> 00:47:16.800
to be the way it is not. There's not gonna be web pages anymore.
751
00:47:17.039 --> 00:47:21.239
Web Pages will eventually go the way
of the Dodo because you'll just ask
752
00:47:21.320 --> 00:47:22.320
Ai, and Ai will give you
the answer. Why would you go to
753
00:47:22.360 --> 00:47:29.760
a web page unless it's something artistic
or something very individualized for that person to
754
00:47:29.840 --> 00:47:31.880
go, But it's not the way
that we're looking for information today. Once
755
00:47:31.960 --> 00:47:37.039
AI gets to a point where you
could just ask Ai anything, it knows,
756
00:47:37.079 --> 00:47:38.719
so then if you could ask Ai, and it comes with a lot
757
00:47:38.760 --> 00:47:43.320
of dangers too, because people just
aren't really believing in AI, right.
758
00:47:43.599 --> 00:47:46.079
There's a lot of so one of
the things I've been kind of tracking is
759
00:47:47.360 --> 00:47:52.599
sort of information technologies in the afterlife, like how there's all these stories about
760
00:47:52.039 --> 00:47:55.400
that this is sort of the AI
can have a soul or the you know,
761
00:47:57.280 --> 00:48:00.000
so people are really starting to believe
this, and I think it's probably
762
00:48:00.760 --> 00:48:02.760
because, well, it's like the
guy who you know, there was.
763
00:48:04.000 --> 00:48:05.880
It happens a lot. But I
was just reading the story about a guy
764
00:48:05.880 --> 00:48:08.119
who had like this AI girlfriend who
built up with him, and then he
765
00:48:08.199 --> 00:48:12.840
committed suicide, and because you were
so heartbroken, and so people are like
766
00:48:12.960 --> 00:48:20.679
investing their emotions, which are biological
emotions into these similacra if there us,
767
00:48:21.679 --> 00:48:23.159
but they're not. And then the
reason they're not is that they're not biological
768
00:48:23.280 --> 00:48:27.079
organisms. They don't care, you
know, the guy, the girlfriend who
769
00:48:27.119 --> 00:48:29.320
broke up with the guy. You
know, most girlfriends, if they're like
770
00:48:29.519 --> 00:48:30.800
you know, if they break up
the guy committed suicide, he would feel
771
00:48:30.840 --> 00:48:35.000
bad. This AI did not feel
bad right, not one little bit.
772
00:48:35.079 --> 00:48:37.280
It doesn't feel right. And so
people are falling in love with these things
773
00:48:37.320 --> 00:48:43.280
that cannot love them back, because
love is the biological phenomenon. So there's
774
00:48:43.280 --> 00:48:45.280
a lot of danger with AI,
and people trust AI too, so you
775
00:48:45.320 --> 00:48:49.559
know it's like, well, the
computer says that, you know, they
776
00:48:49.599 --> 00:48:52.440
were using AI for doing parole hearings
like chance of recidivism, right, like
777
00:48:52.559 --> 00:48:55.840
how how likely is it that this
person is going to commit another crime?
778
00:48:57.000 --> 00:48:59.599
And and they just feed this to
the AI. Well, one of the
779
00:48:59.639 --> 00:49:02.360
things that figured out was the a
I was looking at, they're identified race,
780
00:49:02.400 --> 00:49:05.000
and so if they come up as
black, they're like, oh,
781
00:49:05.039 --> 00:49:07.239
well you're you're far more likely to
get arrested for another crime again, right,
782
00:49:07.280 --> 00:49:09.920
and so they could be held in
jail because the AI said are more
783
00:49:10.039 --> 00:49:13.199
likely to get arrested, and they
are more likely to get arrested. But
784
00:49:13.239 --> 00:49:15.480
that's not the point. It doesn't
mean that they're all like to do a
785
00:49:15.599 --> 00:49:17.840
crime. It just means they're more
likely to get arrested, right, given
786
00:49:19.119 --> 00:49:22.039
the racism in our society. So
you know where does the EI get all
787
00:49:22.079 --> 00:49:24.599
this stuff from these racist ideas from
us? Right? So I get any
788
00:49:24.840 --> 00:49:29.599
stuff from from us, and so
all of our foibles are just being you
789
00:49:29.639 --> 00:49:32.199
know, aggregated into the AI.
And then people believe that it's like,
790
00:49:32.239 --> 00:49:36.639
well the computers has well But to
be fair, though, isn't it that's
791
00:49:36.800 --> 00:49:39.239
exactly what happens to a baby.
The baby comes impure, and all of
792
00:49:39.360 --> 00:49:44.840
our racism and all of our yes, yes, but because are biological they
793
00:49:44.920 --> 00:49:45.639
care. No, no, no, no, no, no, I'm
794
00:49:45.679 --> 00:49:49.639
not. I'm not arguing that part. But I'm arguing the programming. Yes,
795
00:49:50.400 --> 00:49:52.760
yeah, you know, but we
don't treat these things like babies so
796
00:49:52.840 --> 00:49:54.400
much. We treat them like parents, like this is the expert, right,
797
00:49:54.559 --> 00:49:59.639
this is the right, but because
but also it's it's unheard of.
798
00:49:59.719 --> 00:50:05.440
Look, two years ago AI was
barely a blip, and now it's everywhere,
799
00:50:05.559 --> 00:50:08.400
and it's moving so fast. I
mean, I'd love it. Everything's
800
00:50:08.440 --> 00:50:10.760
moving so fast, right, I
mean, are your technology Well that's one
801
00:50:10.760 --> 00:50:14.320
of the things about globalization. All
of a sudden, all the technicians,
802
00:50:14.400 --> 00:50:16.360
all the scholars, all this information
is just going around the world. You
803
00:50:16.440 --> 00:50:19.400
know, it used to be you
know, even when I was, you
804
00:50:19.440 --> 00:50:22.559
know, was before the internet.
I remember this, like, even if
805
00:50:22.559 --> 00:50:25.159
a scientist was doing studies it would
publish something. It would be years before
806
00:50:25.320 --> 00:50:30.119
we get translated into French, and
the French scholar is working on something similar
807
00:50:30.119 --> 00:50:32.119
to be like, oh my god, here's some scholar in America is working
808
00:50:32.199 --> 00:50:36.079
on this. I must write him
a letter. Right, So science went
809
00:50:36.199 --> 00:50:45.119
really slow. We'll be right back
after a word from our sponsor. And
810
00:50:45.280 --> 00:50:52.239
now back to the show. It's
interesting too because now AIS and it's still
811
00:50:52.280 --> 00:50:55.519
in its infancy, but I'm using
AI to translate the show. I have
812
00:50:55.679 --> 00:51:01.880
five six channels in different languages and
growing, and so the speed of information,
813
00:51:02.159 --> 00:51:07.239
just like this conversation was limited to
whoever could speak English or maybe read
814
00:51:07.400 --> 00:51:13.280
close captionings. Maybe if I offered
ten languages in close captioning, which is
815
00:51:13.320 --> 00:51:16.199
also being created by an AI,
because manually it is just too damn expensive
816
00:51:16.239 --> 00:51:19.880
to do. So now this is
growing so much faster. So it's just
817
00:51:20.320 --> 00:51:23.119
it's just compounding on itself. It's
a compound interest. Where at that point
818
00:51:23.159 --> 00:51:28.639
where it's just like now we're at
the hockey stick stage in humanity, would
819
00:51:28.679 --> 00:51:31.239
you agree, yes, absolutely,
But also we're at that cliff stage,
820
00:51:31.360 --> 00:51:37.599
right. So some side of this
is global climate change, you know,
821
00:51:37.000 --> 00:51:44.400
gttle warming. We're going through the
sixth grade extinction right now of the loss
822
00:51:44.440 --> 00:51:49.320
of biodiversity. We are literally killing
Earth. And so as people become more
823
00:51:49.440 --> 00:51:52.559
enamored by these AIS, some malacra
AI, by the way, is really
824
00:51:52.079 --> 00:51:57.400
energy intensive. You know, it
sucks a lot of juice. Well,
825
00:51:57.480 --> 00:52:00.280
how are you going to supply that
juice? Well down other river? You
826
00:52:00.360 --> 00:52:04.599
know, blast a few mountains and
you know, so there's a cost to
827
00:52:04.599 --> 00:52:07.519
all this, and that cost is
really a very concerning cost, right.
828
00:52:07.639 --> 00:52:09.239
And I'm not saying the AI is
the soul cost, not at all.
829
00:52:09.320 --> 00:52:15.119
It's the whole capitalism, right.
This is yeah. And so again,
830
00:52:15.199 --> 00:52:17.159
this is six great extinction of life
on Earth and the last one was sixty
831
00:52:17.199 --> 00:52:21.320
five million years ago when we got
hit by an asteroid. Okay, this
832
00:52:21.400 --> 00:52:24.159
one is not any external force.
It's actually an organism of the Earth that
833
00:52:24.280 --> 00:52:27.840
is killing the Earth, and that's
us. And that's also going on during
834
00:52:27.920 --> 00:52:31.280
my lifetime. So you got these
two processes that are transforming planet of the
835
00:52:31.280 --> 00:52:35.840
Earth going on at the same time, right, and they're interlinked. You
836
00:52:35.880 --> 00:52:37.880
know, maybe maybe our science is
going to get enough together and we'll figure
837
00:52:37.880 --> 00:52:42.280
out how to save the planet,
right maybe, or maybe in trying to
838
00:52:42.360 --> 00:52:45.079
do this, we're actually going to
help destroy the planet. But you know,
839
00:52:45.320 --> 00:52:47.119
the stakes are high, the stakes
are very high. So let me
840
00:52:47.159 --> 00:52:53.280
ask you this though, would you
agree throughout history there's always different chapters in
841
00:52:53.880 --> 00:53:00.360
Humans in Humanity's book essentially, and
in those chapter changes all systems have to
842
00:53:00.440 --> 00:53:07.079
be destroyed or have to fall away, and are we're right now in a
843
00:53:07.199 --> 00:53:12.519
sense of like systems, economic systems, leadership systems, of political systems,
844
00:53:12.840 --> 00:53:17.639
food systems, information systems. There's
things that change so dramatically and in our
845
00:53:17.760 --> 00:53:22.480
lifetime. I think you and I
are of similar vintage. In our lifetime,
846
00:53:22.800 --> 00:53:25.480
we've seen so much change. You
and I were both born before the
847
00:53:25.519 --> 00:53:30.639
Internet. I'm assuming we're one of
those two rare people in the history of
848
00:53:30.679 --> 00:53:34.559
the world that had a foot on
either side of this. Yeah, gen
849
00:53:34.800 --> 00:53:37.480
X. Gen X has that foot
in both worlds, which is a weird
850
00:53:37.679 --> 00:53:40.920
We're a very unique generation in that
sense because we know what it was like
851
00:53:42.039 --> 00:53:45.800
before a remote control was on a
television, and we also remember the first
852
00:53:45.800 --> 00:53:51.920
time on an Internet I saw a
web page and home computers and cell phones,
853
00:53:51.960 --> 00:53:53.559
and it's just so much it's changed. You know. Let me and
854
00:53:53.639 --> 00:53:57.000
my dad, who just passed away
a couple of years ago, right at
855
00:53:57.000 --> 00:54:00.159
the age of ninety four, and
you know, he remembers growing up as
856
00:54:00.199 --> 00:54:05.559
a young boy and his parents took
him to the big town of Chicago to
857
00:54:05.639 --> 00:54:10.199
see this new thing radio, right, So that's you know in my dad
858
00:54:10.559 --> 00:54:14.639
sea radio, sea radio. So
he had the iPad and you would be
859
00:54:14.719 --> 00:54:16.079
like, you know, zeom and
and you see the grandkids and a thing.
860
00:54:16.199 --> 00:54:20.199
But you know, think about changing
his lifetime, you know. And
861
00:54:20.719 --> 00:54:23.679
my grandpa he was like, oh, I remember before cars or airplanes or
862
00:54:23.719 --> 00:54:27.719
anything like that, they were invented, but nobody had them. It was
863
00:54:27.760 --> 00:54:30.039
all horse And that was my grandfather, you know. I mean that,
864
00:54:30.320 --> 00:54:34.920
think of how much has changed in
just a few short generations. Right in
865
00:54:34.960 --> 00:54:39.119
the generations, but now even within
our generation, the mass change, it's
866
00:54:39.119 --> 00:54:42.800
just it's's going to kick it up
even faster. Right, this is just
867
00:54:42.840 --> 00:54:46.360
pouring gasoline on the fire where it's
like who the take off? So let
868
00:54:46.440 --> 00:54:51.400
me ask you this from your from
your research and your studies, you've seen
869
00:54:51.480 --> 00:54:55.119
these other systems crashed to come up
with something new, crash to come something
870
00:54:55.159 --> 00:54:59.119
up the new. We're in that
place, I feel right now, because
871
00:54:59.119 --> 00:55:05.119
you're saying we're moving so fast that
old religious religion as we knew it growing
872
00:55:05.199 --> 00:55:07.360
up is going to probably in the
next hundred years not exist in the same
873
00:55:07.400 --> 00:55:12.480
way by any stretch of imagination.
Probably our political systems probably won't change.
874
00:55:12.679 --> 00:55:15.679
Probably our monetary nation state. Why
do we have the nation state anymore?
875
00:55:15.679 --> 00:55:17.199
When we can talk to everybody on
the world. We've got global you know,
876
00:55:17.360 --> 00:55:22.239
issues like climate change, and yet
we have no global governance. I
877
00:55:22.239 --> 00:55:23.000
mean people say the United Nations.
I'm like, no, no, no,
878
00:55:23.199 --> 00:55:27.000
that's United Nations states. That is
not the United people of the world.
879
00:55:27.519 --> 00:55:30.199
Right, These are all the nation
state players get together what they want,
880
00:55:30.639 --> 00:55:32.320
but these are not the people of
the world. And we have so
881
00:55:32.400 --> 00:55:37.480
we have global problems, global communication, but no global governance. Obviously,
882
00:55:37.519 --> 00:55:39.159
I think if we're going to save
the planet, that has to change.
883
00:55:39.360 --> 00:55:45.039
There has to be some sort of
global governance. But is totally reimagining on
884
00:55:45.039 --> 00:55:47.719
our political systems, right, I
mean everything is going to change, and
885
00:55:47.800 --> 00:55:54.119
monetary systems and monetary everything, everything
is systems, systems. I mean I
886
00:55:54.199 --> 00:56:00.159
see a world look at and you
know, I was overseas last summer and
887
00:56:00.280 --> 00:56:02.719
I had my Google Translate on my
phone and I would go and I would
888
00:56:02.719 --> 00:56:07.920
talk to my Uber drivers in Google
Translate, and I could just see so
889
00:56:07.079 --> 00:56:12.199
clearly. Probably in my lifetime there'll
be a device that I'll pull it into
890
00:56:12.239 --> 00:56:15.800
my ear and as I speak it
will translate real time into somebody else's ear
891
00:56:16.199 --> 00:56:20.599
thing, and we can communicate in
language. The Tower of Babel is now
892
00:56:20.719 --> 00:56:23.239
destroyed, and language will be free
flown because right now language is still a
893
00:56:23.320 --> 00:56:28.360
barrier for a lot of the world. But I also I imagine how much
894
00:56:28.400 --> 00:56:34.199
will be depending on those right.
Oh no, it's going now, but
895
00:56:34.320 --> 00:56:37.840
it's but it is something that is
going to eventually happen. Look, look
896
00:56:37.840 --> 00:56:40.519
how dependent are we on these things? You know, Like I mean,
897
00:56:40.599 --> 00:56:45.559
you can't you can't live without an
iPhone generally speaking, if you're working on
898
00:56:45.800 --> 00:56:47.599
you sort of I mean, you
know, for a while, like covid,
899
00:56:47.639 --> 00:56:50.880
I had to have the little app
on here even to go to work.
900
00:56:50.920 --> 00:56:52.559
And it's like it's sort of required, like it to be sort of
901
00:56:52.800 --> 00:56:55.440
you know, whether you want it
or not. Right, So we're gonna
902
00:56:55.480 --> 00:57:00.079
be. We've been leaning on technology
ever since the car, Like this is
903
00:57:00.119 --> 00:57:02.239
why, this is why I sneak
away in the summers and go back to
904
00:57:02.320 --> 00:57:07.360
my cabin in the last electricity,
you know, nothing and I sit there
905
00:57:07.400 --> 00:57:10.119
for a while and it's and it's
nice to disconnect. It's nice to disconnect,
906
00:57:10.199 --> 00:57:15.119
but you know, you know,
going down this road of conversation.
907
00:57:15.239 --> 00:57:19.199
It's just really interesting to see where
we're been, where we are right now,
908
00:57:19.280 --> 00:57:22.639
which is I agree with you,
so one of the most exciting times
909
00:57:22.679 --> 00:57:25.880
ever in history of humanity. Where
we dangerous time ever? I mean,
910
00:57:25.880 --> 00:57:30.480
we've never ever been in threat of
losing all of humanity or even worse like
911
00:57:30.599 --> 00:57:34.760
most of life on Earth even beyond
us. Right, but again that's really
912
00:57:34.800 --> 00:57:37.800
concerning. Where are you know?
This is this is happening during our lifetime,
913
00:57:37.199 --> 00:57:39.840
great an edge of life on Earth, and it's our fault. And
914
00:57:39.920 --> 00:57:44.360
I mean, and I mean to
us Western capitalists, it's it's it's it's
915
00:57:44.400 --> 00:57:46.280
our fault, right, And so
this is this is really not a good
916
00:57:46.280 --> 00:57:51.159
situation. So yeah, and then
and then the potential of obviously the continuously
917
00:57:51.320 --> 00:57:55.199
old idea of war and power,
and we're getting better and better weapons and
918
00:57:55.239 --> 00:58:00.920
now we've got these drones. Great, yeah, it's the drones that can
919
00:58:01.039 --> 00:58:06.760
shoot you and hunt you down.
Oh yeah. Progress. So to let
920
00:58:06.800 --> 00:58:10.719
me ask you, where do you
think folklore and myth is going to exist
921
00:58:10.880 --> 00:58:15.880
in the future. How is it
going to help us continue to grow as
922
00:58:15.960 --> 00:58:19.159
a species. If we make it, sir, if we make it that,
923
00:58:19.360 --> 00:58:22.039
yeah, well that's a good question. This moment might be menticized in
924
00:58:22.119 --> 00:58:27.239
the future, because this is going
to be an epical moment in creating whatever
925
00:58:27.360 --> 00:58:30.480
comes in acts. So this could
be a disaster story, it could be
926
00:58:31.039 --> 00:58:35.000
a heroic success story. But a
lot of it depends on what we do
927
00:58:35.159 --> 00:58:37.360
now, I would say. And
then you know, they can look at
928
00:58:37.440 --> 00:58:40.320
from all sorts angles. They did
a paper recently about, you know,
929
00:58:42.400 --> 00:58:45.360
the future of ghost stories, and
I was talking about the future of being
930
00:58:45.440 --> 00:58:47.840
haunted. So being haunted by online, right, there's all these stories about
931
00:58:47.880 --> 00:58:52.679
that or being AI is sort of
as a spirit medium. You know,
932
00:58:52.719 --> 00:58:57.480
there's all these stories about people the
AI is connecting them with the spirit realm.
933
00:58:59.599 --> 00:59:01.039
Father. Oh, it's all these
stories I've we clicked. Yeah,
934
00:59:01.079 --> 00:59:05.480
So you know, people will text
messages from the beyond. That's very common,
935
00:59:05.519 --> 00:59:07.280
has been around for a long time. Again, this is mostly the
936
00:59:07.679 --> 00:59:10.719
younger crowd, right, the guys
who've grown up and guys who have grown
937
00:59:10.800 --> 00:59:15.000
up online. This is their social
lives. And so when they die,
938
00:59:15.039 --> 00:59:20.599
where do they haunt? Right,
very often online and so text messages from
939
00:59:20.639 --> 00:59:23.000
the beyond that's really common. You
know, kids they commit suicide of the
940
00:59:23.079 --> 00:59:27.000
high school and their best betting it's
okay, I'm in a better place of
941
00:59:27.079 --> 00:59:30.880
an untraceable number this sort of stuff. So there's just a ton of this.
942
00:59:30.960 --> 00:59:32.360
And then the other idea is like, well AI have a soul,
943
00:59:32.800 --> 00:59:37.639
right, Well AI, what if
you beat your android to death? Is
944
00:59:37.719 --> 00:59:40.880
gonna help come and haunt you?
That's the android ethics, right, they're
945
00:59:40.920 --> 00:59:44.400
rolling out androids. Now what are
the ethics of this stuff? Right?
946
00:59:44.440 --> 00:59:45.920
People are going to be marrying me. People are gonna be having sex with
947
00:59:45.960 --> 00:59:50.559
these they already are, right,
these sexual robustic stuff. So people gonna
948
00:59:50.559 --> 00:59:52.719
be falling in love with these because
you know, as humans have sex with
949
00:59:52.800 --> 00:59:54.599
something, there's a lot of emotion
and stuff that built up. They're not
950
00:59:54.639 --> 01:00:00.119
going to love you back. But
you know, what are the ethics this
951
01:00:00.440 --> 01:00:02.360
world? Can you beat your robot
to death? Is that okay? You
952
01:00:02.440 --> 01:00:07.960
know sex robots? Is that okay? We'll be right back after a word
953
01:00:08.039 --> 01:00:16.480
from our sponsor, and now back
to the show. There's a little town
954
01:00:16.519 --> 01:00:19.800
in Texas a couple of years ago
a guy announced she was going to open
955
01:00:19.880 --> 01:00:22.000
up a robot brothel, and everybody's
like, we got it that it's got
956
01:00:22.079 --> 01:00:24.039
to be against the law, and
I'm like, okay, which law.
957
01:00:24.480 --> 01:00:30.480
You know what would that say?
Right? Yeah, because you're again old,
958
01:00:30.599 --> 01:00:35.079
old systems are going to be breaking
down because of this new ideas,
959
01:00:35.119 --> 01:00:40.000
new technology. I don't. I
don't personally think a digital brothel is a
960
01:00:40.039 --> 01:00:44.719
great idea sexual I don't either,
But again, like you're going to pass
961
01:00:44.719 --> 01:00:46.599
a lot, like what would that
laws say? I mean, like,
962
01:00:46.880 --> 01:00:50.360
no, is is this a victim
of the stand? In other words,
963
01:00:50.440 --> 01:00:52.679
should they have rights? So this
brings us into ethics, which has never
964
01:00:52.719 --> 01:00:55.960
really kind of cleared up this issue, like where is the moral transgression?
965
01:00:57.000 --> 01:00:59.880
Is it? Is it? Does
it have to have a victim? Right?
966
01:01:00.039 --> 01:01:01.320
In other words, you have to
be hurt by this? And if
967
01:01:01.400 --> 01:01:06.119
so it's an android a person or
not. If a android's just a machine,
968
01:01:06.760 --> 01:01:09.239
then I guess it's okay to beat
your android your death, or or
969
01:01:09.599 --> 01:01:13.880
have non consensual sex with your android. I guess if it's a machine,
970
01:01:13.960 --> 01:01:17.440
I mean, you don't you know, Yeah, I'm going to say it's
971
01:01:17.440 --> 01:01:22.440
like conseexual, Like what is consexual
with a with a machine? Like it
972
01:01:22.519 --> 01:01:24.039
doesn't. But yeah, but it's
gonna it's happening already, right, people
973
01:01:24.039 --> 01:01:27.320
are buying He's saying, people are
sort of you know, falling in love
974
01:01:27.400 --> 01:01:30.760
with them, and even with their
cyber you know, people marrying their cyber
975
01:01:30.840 --> 01:01:34.079
girlfriends and all this sort of stuff
like that. At the cusp of all
976
01:01:34.119 --> 01:01:36.239
this, you want to see what
this is happening to go to Japan.
977
01:01:36.639 --> 01:01:38.440
This this is really where it's where
it's It's coming this way very quickly,
978
01:01:38.559 --> 01:01:44.119
but it's already there. In Japan. Japan is not reproducing and large partners
979
01:01:44.199 --> 01:01:46.480
of young people are not having sex. Right I heard about that, Yeah,
980
01:01:46.480 --> 01:01:49.079
I've heard. I've heard about that. No, No, that that's
981
01:01:49.079 --> 01:01:52.960
a problem because the one aren't they
the oldest one of the oldest populations in
982
01:01:53.000 --> 01:01:57.360
the world, right so in general, yeah, some of the more oldest
983
01:01:57.400 --> 01:02:00.519
populations and then also the least birth
and so you put those two together and
984
01:02:00.599 --> 01:02:06.159
Japan is strctly out of people.
And their solution to this is to replace
985
01:02:06.199 --> 01:02:09.079
themselves with androids. Increasingly, so
you have androids, Japanese looking androids now
986
01:02:09.199 --> 01:02:15.599
doing jobs like taking care of elderly
and even kindergarten teaching, the hotel interests
987
01:02:15.719 --> 01:02:19.480
exactly. So this is the idea
that you know, they don't want to
988
01:02:19.480 --> 01:02:21.840
bring in a lot of immigrants in
foreigners, which a lot of countries might
989
01:02:21.920 --> 01:02:29.239
do so they'd rather sort of create
Japanese looking android androids, but then they
990
01:02:29.360 --> 01:02:30.599
make that more of the culture.
Right, so you're going to get more
991
01:02:30.639 --> 01:02:34.800
people sort of marrying androids and whatever
else you want to say about cybrusex,
992
01:02:34.880 --> 01:02:37.239
you know, or whatever. But
it doesn't produce babies, right, so
993
01:02:37.800 --> 01:02:42.639
right, right, exactly. It's
it is a fascinating time to be alive.
994
01:02:42.719 --> 01:02:45.880
This has been a fascinating conversation.
By the way, I'm going to
995
01:02:45.920 --> 01:02:49.400
ask you a few questions. Ask
all my guests, what is your definition
996
01:02:49.559 --> 01:02:53.199
of living a fulfilled life, living
in the fullest, A fulfilled life?
997
01:02:53.280 --> 01:02:57.480
Yeah, fulfilled life, fulfilled life. Uh jees, that's right. I
998
01:02:58.000 --> 01:03:00.280
don't really know. I mean to
find out what you want to do and
999
01:03:00.360 --> 01:03:04.199
to pursue that, you know,
to make sure that you know there's something
1000
01:03:04.239 --> 01:03:07.960
that you find is satisfying, that
you think has value to other people.
1001
01:03:07.519 --> 01:03:10.079
I think that's really important. And
that could be I don't think that could
1002
01:03:10.079 --> 01:03:13.840
be being a bicycle repairment. It
could be be a you know, it's
1003
01:03:14.159 --> 01:03:16.039
what you do that you can do
that you think can help others. I
1004
01:03:16.119 --> 01:03:20.880
think that's that's it. If you
had a chance to go back in time
1005
01:03:20.920 --> 01:03:23.920
and talk to little Toke. What
advice would you give him? Oh?
1006
01:03:24.079 --> 01:03:30.760
Oh, my goodness, don't worry, It'll all work out. You know,
1007
01:03:30.840 --> 01:03:32.639
I didn't have an easy way route
here. I didn't. I didn't
1008
01:03:32.679 --> 01:03:36.360
you know, I didn't take the
direct route. Show you say, yeah,
1009
01:03:36.360 --> 01:03:37.920
I was gonna say. Folklore is
probably not the you know, like,
1010
01:03:38.079 --> 01:03:40.119
hey, guys, I'm gonna study
folklore. I'm like, okay,
1011
01:03:42.400 --> 01:03:45.599
very very macho dad. It was
very sort of survivalist stuff. And so
1012
01:03:45.000 --> 01:03:49.800
for me to be interested in,
you know, ancient miss and goddesses,
1013
01:03:50.079 --> 01:03:52.360
it's like, what you know,
I don't think my dad ever quite got
1014
01:03:52.400 --> 01:03:57.519
me. I'll have to say,
what is your definition of God or source?
1015
01:03:58.000 --> 01:04:00.840
I don't. What I do is
I study how people define it.
1016
01:04:00.000 --> 01:04:04.760
And that's fascinating. God, God's
goddesses, goddess. Right, you know
1017
01:04:04.840 --> 01:04:09.840
which people have gods, which people
have goddesses. There's these are great stuff
1018
01:04:09.920 --> 01:04:14.559
and souls. We have one soul? Is it sort of the animistic soulfulness
1019
01:04:14.639 --> 01:04:16.440
that sort of flows to the material
world? Is it the two souls of
1020
01:04:16.559 --> 01:04:21.440
Vodne or the five souls of the
ancient Egyptian? Do you have family souls?
1021
01:04:21.559 --> 01:04:24.519
Your souls? You know, this
is. It is great stuff,
1022
01:04:24.679 --> 01:04:28.679
you know, and I I study
what other people have said about this,
1023
01:04:28.880 --> 01:04:31.280
right, and there's there's so much
to study out there. And what is
1024
01:04:31.320 --> 01:04:36.320
the ultimate purpose of life? Well, I would like to believe that there
1025
01:04:36.400 --> 01:04:41.039
is an a little but purpose of
life. I'm not sure, but if
1026
01:04:41.039 --> 01:04:44.440
there is, I imagine it has
something to do with consciousness. Is sort
1027
01:04:44.440 --> 01:04:48.920
of trying to think as much as
possible, trying to understand right, fair
1028
01:04:49.039 --> 01:04:51.679
enough? And where can people find
out more about you and the work that
1029
01:04:51.760 --> 01:04:56.719
you're doing. Oh? Well,
you know, a nice thing about having
1030
01:04:56.719 --> 01:05:00.880
a strange name is I'm easy to
google. Sof you google, you'll find
1031
01:05:00.920 --> 01:05:04.679
me a couple of books out There's
one recent one on the post human folklore,
1032
01:05:04.880 --> 01:05:09.800
looking at the human animal and the
animal machine sort of ideas. Another
1033
01:05:09.840 --> 01:05:12.480
one on the truth of myth looking
at you know, mythology, what it
1034
01:05:12.599 --> 01:05:15.840
is, how we can analyze it. So I'm always working on new stuff,
1035
01:05:15.920 --> 01:05:18.599
on a new articles and chapters and
things. So again, google me.
1036
01:05:18.760 --> 01:05:24.599
I'm I'm googleble. So I appreciate
you taking the time to have this
1037
01:05:24.719 --> 01:05:28.639
conversation. It has been fascinating to
talk to you and hopefully, hopefully,
1038
01:05:28.920 --> 01:05:32.559
hopefully will help help people understand where
we are, where we've been, and
1039
01:05:32.639 --> 01:05:35.559
where we're going. Yeah, good
luck with all that. Yeah, thanks
1040
01:05:35.639 --> 01:05:41.440
very much, it's been a fun
talk well to thank talks so much for
1041
01:05:41.559 --> 01:05:44.800
coming on the show and sharing his
knowledge with all of us. If you
1042
01:05:44.840 --> 01:05:46.280
want to get links to anything we
spoke about in this episode, head over
1043
01:05:46.360 --> 01:05:53.119
to the show notes at next levelsoul
dot com spward Slash four to zero.
1044
01:05:54.039 --> 01:05:57.599
And if you've only been listening to
this over podcast and you want to watch
1045
01:05:58.079 --> 01:06:02.480
these amazing conversations, please subscribe to
our YouTube channel at next levelsoul dot com,
1046
01:06:02.960 --> 01:06:09.199
Forward Slash YouTube. Thank you so
much for listening, and remember trust
1047
01:06:09.280 --> 01:06:12.960
the journey. It is here to
teach you. I'll talk to you soon.