Navigating Emotional Intelligence: A Guide to Empathy and Compassion With Danny Coleman- Ep. 305

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Uh you know, I was laying, I was laying on the on the floor, you know, feeling that sense of like I might be having a stroke or dying or something like that.
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And I swear, I was like, you know, it would be super nice just to die and like go to sleep.
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But then I was getting stressed out that I might then I was getting stressed out that I might be having a stroke and I'm gonna lose my brain.
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I'm like, dying is not the problem.
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It's like staying here with all these deficits.
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It's living with that shit, yeah.
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Yeah, exactly.
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What's going on, everybody?
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Uh, welcome to this live stream, and you're catching Danny and I just kind of shooting the shit before we come on live.
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And we're inviting some of our male friends, so other people might uh jump on.
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But um yeah, Danny and I are going live uh on my live streams uh to YouTube.
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Um, you might be finding us on LinkedIn, you might be finding us on Facebook, or you might be finding us on one of my favorite places to hang out now, um, is Substack.
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And so Danny and I want to do this as much as possible.
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Me and him and our good friend Dr.
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Ray Heinish were on last week, got a lot of great feedback um from a bunch of you.
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And so we're gonna kick off this discussion um about uh empathy and compassion.
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Those of you who were hanging out with Danny and I last week, we were talking about this idea of leadership and can you create a good leader if you don't have the skill sets right away?
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Can someone be built into a good leader?
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And so we were debating that and having that conversation, and it brought us into a deep discussion about what is a leader, what makes a good leader, you know, what makes a bad leader, and how we can uh inspire and influence people.
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And so we'll see if any of our other brothers show up on this, but let's just me and you go ahead and get started, Danny.
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So the question for you that I wanted to get into is, and we can couch this in leadership, which is your expertise, is a quote that I've seen going around, and it's a quote I heard from Elon Musk.
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Of course, we have to be very careful about you know, some of these things we see on the internet because they often are clips and they're taking out of context.
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And I have to admit, I did not see the complete context of this video.
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But the clip that I saw was Elon Musk essentially saying that uh empathy uh slash compassion, which really are two different, slightly different things, so we can talk about that, but that it is really an ultimate weakness uh that people will prey upon, that it's not a good thing, essentially, was this clip was inferring that having empathy and compassion is not really a good thing.
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And the the context underneath it was that it is something that people will take advantage of, it will make you weak, it will that kind of thing.
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And so I want to just uh have this conversation with you first, you know, given that you're the expert in leadership and you do a lot in this world, like what would you say about that?
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Knowing you as a close friend, I think I know where you come down on this in terms of agreement-disagreement, although uh I know there's probably nuance there, but I'm wondering how you see this from a leadership perspective.
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Is empathy and compassion an asset or a liability?
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I I do think it's important we start with the the distinction between the two.
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And you may, I I don't know the technical definition on each, but I do decipher between these when I teach Jade and I say, look, empathy is to feel with.
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Jade is sad, I become sad.
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Jade is mad, I become mad.
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Comma compassion is more of a mental process, be able to see what you're going through or to understand what you might be going through, even if I haven't gone through what you've gone through.
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So if you if like if something that you went through and I've never been through, I may not know exactly what it's like to go through that, but I will know what those emotions are.
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I know what it's like to be scared, I know what it's like to be sad, I know what it's like to be betrayed, I know all those human experiences.
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Passion to me is just about understanding.
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I don't know if I'm bouncing back with echo on your side, Jay, but you have an echo on your side?
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Yeah, I might have to change my mic real quick.
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But I do want to know what you're doing.
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No, you're not I'm not echoing, which means it's probably coming from me.
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Let me turn my volume down, see if that helps.
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But I do just want to get your thoughts on that, Jay, to start with that distinction, because believe it or not, I'm I'm actually probably a little bit more against empathy than than you think.
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Uh that has been a new thing for me.
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I've been working with a lot of people.
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I do the big five personality traits in my training.
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So the audience are not familiar with those.
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It is the most reliable and agreed upon personality assessment.
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And I like it because it's nuanced.
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I like it because it's dynamic.
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Who I was at 25, I can change my personality by 35.
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And one of those traits is agreeableness.
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These are the people pleasers among us.
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And one of the things that the people pleasers among us do is they're very high in empathy, which means if Jay's sad, then I become sad.
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And what we're finding, at least in the leadership space, it does take a lot of their energy.
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It takes a lot of their just bandwidth to feel what they feel.
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So I try to teach them more on the compassion side.
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Like, look, it's absolutely critical.
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We see what other people are going through.
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And there's some evidence in the research that says people who are better perspective takers, they're better at compassion.
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They're better negotiators, they're better salespeople, they're, they perform better at work across the board.
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And they don't go home exhausted at the end of the day because they're like, I've been, I've been angry all day.
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Why have you been angry?
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Well, Jane's been angry because I've been empathizing with him all day.
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So I don't think, I don't know that I agree that it's it's weakness and you'll get it taken advantage of, but I do see it more as like a seasoning, like salt, rather than a main ingredient like protein.
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So empathy is something that should be used in dashes.
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It should probably be used and reserved for people who are probably most close to us.
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Like I'll have empathy for Kels, I'll have empathy for you, but I can't have empathy with everyone I work with across the day.
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Otherwise, it kind of leaves me empty.
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So I don't know what you think about those two definitions and those distinctions, or if you even agree with sort of my approach.
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But that's what I've been teaching lately.
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So I've been excited to talk about this topic.
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Yeah, and and let me know if you're still getting feedback.
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You probably will.
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I probably I don't have my headphones near me, but so you're probably gonna get a little bit of feedback.
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But yeah, and and actually, uh, if you don't mind, like let me let's look this up real quick.
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I'm just I'm just gonna briefly check.
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And before I look it up, I'll tell you, just so, you know, I've I've always seen empathy as a feeling-based thing, and I've seen compassion more as the action-based thing.
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Um, but I but let's actually look this up for everybody.
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So I'm just gonna say um compassion versus empathy.
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And just so everyone knows, when I'm I'm on, I'm on GPT, I just want to see what what's the difference.
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How does how does that difference come out?
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I do know that the the chief researcher on this is Kristen Neff.
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She wrote the book called Self-Compassion.
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She's out of the University of Texas, and that's a key component of her of compassion, is action-oriented.
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I take it, I remember this one time Jade, and Jade does not like to do this stuff, and I knew that about him, but I really needed help.
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And so I called and I was like, hey man, do you mind helping me move?
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And Jade, Jade will always have your back, but this is his one thing that he's like, fuck.
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I don't even know if you're my friend, if you have to ask me that to move.
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But the fact that you came out, you came from uh Santa Monica, drove all the way into Central LA into Koreatown, couldn't find a parking spot, helped me like helped me in the hot sun with this big ass mattress for three hours, gave up your Saturday, like that is an action-oriented thing, or taking someone to the airport, compassion is that component of action.
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So she would agree with you.
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But I interrupted when you're kind of looking it up.
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What is what was the distinction?
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I love it.
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I'll tell you all what it says here and love her work for sure.
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So empathy, feeling with someone, you emotionally resonate with another person's experience.
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What it does well builds connection and rapport, signals you're not alone, helps you understand emotional states, hidden cost, emotional contagion, burnout and fatigue, boundary and collapse, paralysis instead of action.
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You absorb suffering instead of responding to it, right?
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So empathy says, I feel your pain.
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If you stop here, you're now in pain too.
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Right.
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So that's the idea that I think you were getting at, right?
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So empathy in that regard, I guess we could see what someone like an Elon Musk is trying to point to.
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Now, compassion, caring about suffering, and this is the key component, with the intention to reduce it without becoming consumed by it.
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So to me, that's the action part.
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This is what it does well, preserves emotional regulation, supports wise action, maintains good boundaries, scales in leadership, parenting, coaching, and medicine.
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You can stay present and effective.
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I see your pain and I'm steady enough to help.
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And so when I first saw this quote by Elon Musk, I was disappointed.
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Not because I fully disagreed, but I was disappointed by the lack of nuance in whoever grabbed that clip.
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And I'm and whoever, if there's anyone here that saw the whole clip, I'm hoping that perhaps, although I don't know that he's necessarily known for this, that there was some nuance in there and that he was touching on this idea.
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Because from my perspective, what he's really talking about is not, and this is what people do, it's not to avoid empathy, it's to have emotional maturity.
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And from my perspective, if we're gonna have a conversation about empathy and compassion, we probably should have a conversation about emotional maturity and emotional development first.
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Because from my perspective, if you have emotional maturity and you are emotionally well developed, there's no risk of getting swept up into overfeeling so much that someone in rage causes you to be in rage, or someone in sadness causes you to go into sadness.
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There should be this thing that I can feel you and then immediately move and be like, that's your feelings.
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And now I can move to take actions to allay suffering, but I don't put myself in suffering as well.
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But to me, empathy is I don't think compassion is possible without empathy because the first part of compassion is going, I see that you are in pain.
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I can feel to some degree your pain so that I can do something about it.
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How are you supposed to help somebody allay compassion if you don't know and understand what they're suffering from?
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It'd almost be like, you know, someone on the side of the road who has a car, you know, that's broken down and you pull over to help them and know nothing about changing a tire and they're trying to clean their windshield while they're trying to change their tire.
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It helps nobody, right?
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So you have to recognize the fact that, okay, I can see that they have a tire flat, and that is the thing that we're working on.
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That's empathy, right?
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Like to me, it's like that's a recognition, a seeing, not with our eyes, but with our emotions.
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I see you, right?
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I get you.
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To me, empathy is I get you.
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Compassion is I got you, right?
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Like that, that idea of like, I see that that that you know, Danny has to, he needs help moving, right?
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I can understand and I can get and I have to get into the thing about it.
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Like he's got nobody else.
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It's like he's, you know, he can't do this alone.
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It, you know, that's incredibly frustrating because I've felt it before.
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And then so I get it.
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I get what it's like to move and to have that frustration of having to move by yourself.
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I also, though, now I got you because I go, I because I understand it and I know what that suffering is like, I will show up and be uh compassionate and help you allay that suffering.
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So I don't think you can have one without the other, but I agree it's emotional maturity because people who are emotionally mature go, I feel you, I can get you, but I'm not gonna get consumed by you.
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I'm not gonna let that be contagious on me.
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And now I'm going to uh you know have some compassion.
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And let me just say one more thing about this.
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My uh brother-in-law, Ellie, uh, who you know Danny well, he is uh Israeli and he can have a pretty gruff way of being.
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He's not necessarily the warmest human in the world.
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Um so a lot of people would say, well, he doesn't have like, you know, the empathy because everyone sees empathy as being warm, but he also is the kind of person who'll be the first one.
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He was an EMT and that kind of stuff, he'd be the first one to run in the building and pull you out.
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So he has the compassion beyond what most people would have, but he's not necessarily light and airy and warm and fluffy about it, right?
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And so I think that's partly the distinction, right?
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He is able to see someone needs help.
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I get that they're suffering, I will help them, but I don't have to be overly emotional about it.
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And in fact, being in my emotional uh, you know, integrity and authenticity and alignment allows me to be more compassionate.
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So I don't know what you think about that.
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I like I like all that.
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I I would just say this is like this is like a muscle that needs to be exercised, though.
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I am noticing more and more, just in my work and just my observations of people in general, like this, this muscle is getting really doled down.
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Just our capacity to even imagine what someone else is going through.
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I'll give you what I use to teach this now.
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This is this game called Codenames.
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You ever heard of this game, Code Names?
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Like a board game, Jade.
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You familiar with it?
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So for those of you who don't know, it's a you take these deck of cards, and every card has a single word on them.
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It could be something like bridge, it could be a location.
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They're mostly nouns on these cards, just single word nouns.
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And you're split into two teams, and there's a five by five grid of all these cards.
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And you're looking at all these cards, and it's word association.
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So you, as the hint giver, like if you're on my team, Jade, I'm looking at this card with a unique board that matches the board that you see on the table.
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And I would give you a hint.
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I said, all right, Jade, this one is for three words, and I get a one-word hint, and the word is country.
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And you would look at the board and you go, okay, well, there's America, there's England, there's China.
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It's gotta be those three.
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So Jay would guess those three, and you go, okay, great, yeah, you got it.
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And you kind of block those out, and it's like the first of seven or whatever.
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Every time I play this game with someone new, my my family, we're into board games, and we always there's always someone new in the mix, and every time without fail, you'll be the hint giver and you'll go through the hint, you'll go through the round, and then you lay down your card and say, Yeah, this is what the board looked like.
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And if your team lost that round, without a doubt, someone will say, Why didn't you just say this?
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It's so easy, it's right there, right?
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The problem is you have to avoid certain words too.
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So if I gave you three for country and there are four countries on the board, then like one of them could be the other teams, one of them could be the death card on there.
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And without doubt, Jay, then it's their turn to give the hint.
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And they get behind the card and they go, Wow, this is a lot harder than I thought it was.
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Every time, and it's frustrating for your teammates to go, yeah, have a little perspective, have a little empathy, like imagine so their capacity to imagine what it was like on the other side of the card, impossible.
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All they said, well, here's all the information I have.
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It's so easy.
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Look at it, until they get in that situation.
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So I'm noticing this more and more in the world, too.
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That muscle to be like, oh God, I can imagine that's really tough.
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There's this experiment out of uh, there's this professor out of, I think it's Penn, and every new business school class, he brings people in and he goes, All right, let me just ask you all you're all business-minded people, right?
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You're economic-minded people.
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If you were alive in 1740, bunch of white kids in the class, how many of you do you think would be slave owners?
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Not one hand goes up.
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They would all be the righteous one to push back, be the anti-slavery, right?
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But we know statistically that's probably not the case.
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That if X amount of people at that time were slave owners, then probability would tell us that, yeah, this classroom of these type of people probably be slave owners.
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But it's interesting, we just don't have that capacity to imagine what it's like in those times, in that moment, going through that situation.
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So I don't know if you've noticed this, but I feel as if a lot of these muscles have been doled, except for the people who identify as people pleasers.
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And I think there's there is a little bit of an overcorrection with them.
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They're exhausted, and because they have this story of, well, I'm a good person, and this is what good people do.
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It's like, well, you can be a good person and be and not have to feel every emotion of everyone around you.
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But those are some of the examples I like to use to be like, I know you think this is obvious.
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I know you think this is easy, that it's natural, but then looking at games like code names, looking at these experiments where they ask people, imagine if, and people are just wrong over and over and over.
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So go into the same thing.
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It reminds me too of um of like post-World War II and you know, the Hitler.
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Like one of the things that always kind of blew my mind and studying that is that after that war, to find people in Germany who would admit or even you know, recognize like that you won't find people nowadays who say I supported Hitler.
00:19:11.160 --> 00:19:11.480
Okay.
00:19:11.720 --> 00:19:12.440
Like, right?
00:19:12.519 --> 00:19:15.559
What most of them are dead, but like at the time, no one would admit.
00:19:15.720 --> 00:19:22.920
And and then as time went on, you know, like everyone, like if you did studies of Germany and you were like, who did you support them?
00:19:23.000 --> 00:19:24.359
Everyone was like, No, no, I didn't.
00:19:24.440 --> 00:19:25.079
No, I didn't.
00:19:25.240 --> 00:19:25.400
Right.
00:19:25.559 --> 00:19:31.720
And it's that it's the same kind of sort of principle in my mind of what we humans do.
00:19:31.880 --> 00:19:38.039
We it works like what you're talking about, where it's like, you know, you can't put yourself in that perspective.
00:19:38.200 --> 00:19:55.880
But then it also works in reverse that if you were that person and you feel like you made wrong or quote bad uh choices, you're not necessarily gonna own those bad choices because the brain does not like cognitive dissonance in that regard.
00:19:55.960 --> 00:20:06.359
And so it will essentially correct itself, which is why it can be incredibly infuriating with this kind of stuff, because uh humans are not logical in nature.
00:20:06.519 --> 00:20:37.240
They make emotional um decisions, and I think that, and we don't understand those, and I think that is why empathy is oftentimes seen by those who are I I really just think they're not well versed in emotions, they're not very emotionally mature, and therefore empathy is a complex emotion that um is tricky, and because it can put people in a vulnerable situation or feel like you're being hijacked, a lot of people will just blanket say it's a problem.
00:20:37.559 --> 00:20:48.759
I'll sh I will say that what I believe about it is I actually think it is the most important of all human emotions.
00:20:49.079 --> 00:20:54.200
A world without empathy is a world where you and I aren't having a conversation.
00:20:54.359 --> 00:21:01.480
And this has been well worked out in terms of the debate of survival of the fittest versus survival of the friendliest.
00:21:01.640 --> 00:21:17.319
And most people who study these things, anthropologists, social psychologists, you know, um, this even gets into the research of um domestication of dogs and animals and how they become more and more amenable and friendly.
00:21:17.480 --> 00:21:19.960
It has to do with cooperation.
00:21:20.440 --> 00:21:24.759
And there is no cooperation in my mind without empathy.
00:21:25.319 --> 00:21:30.839
In fact, lack of empathy leads to wars and cruelty.
00:21:31.000 --> 00:21:33.000
And so let's just be in my mind.
00:21:33.079 --> 00:21:36.200
Now, you may or may not agree with me, not you, but you as a whole.
00:21:36.359 --> 00:21:42.440
I'm curious what you think about this, but the people listening to this, but to me, I go, that's a very slippery slope.
00:21:42.599 --> 00:21:54.119
Just because empathy is a complex emotion, to see it as a weakness and not realize that a world without empathy means you can't feel me, get me, cooperate with me.
00:21:54.200 --> 00:21:55.559
You just don't give a damn.
00:21:55.720 --> 00:21:58.440
Your suffering is all that matters, and that's it.
00:21:58.599 --> 00:22:16.119
And you, me and Ray talked about this last time that in a human ecosystem where we have to get along, or just an animal ecosystem where the lion, who's the king of the jungle, decides he's gonna just exert control over everybody and take all the resources, ends up destroying himself.
00:22:16.359 --> 00:22:17.640
We see this over and over again.
00:22:17.720 --> 00:22:20.039
The world, you know, we're talking about World War II.
00:22:20.119 --> 00:22:22.759
A lot of people are talking about what's going on in the United States now.
00:22:23.000 --> 00:22:33.079
The world gets here because empathy begins to sw to be uh, it begins to be confusing for people or begins to be abandoned.
00:22:33.240 --> 00:22:46.759
Compassion then goes out the window, cruelty begins to uh consume us, and all of a sudden we are on a track trajectory of disconnection, dehumanization, divisiveness.
00:22:46.920 --> 00:22:51.000
And the people in power always think this is to their advantage.
00:22:51.240 --> 00:22:52.519
It never is.
00:22:53.000 --> 00:22:55.880
It will destroy them the same as everybody else.
00:22:55.960 --> 00:23:00.920
And we humans have made this mistake again and again and again.
00:23:01.160 --> 00:23:03.319
So I'm curious what you think about that.
00:23:03.400 --> 00:23:10.279
And then I'm wondering if you want to get into the idea of like what really are we talking about when we're talking about emotional maturity?
00:23:10.440 --> 00:23:15.400
Because to me, it's not stoicism so much as just be stoic and don't care.
00:23:15.640 --> 00:23:31.720
It is, you know, a whole set of behaviors and ways of being that help you manage empathy in a way that doesn't, you know, burn you out and create a situation where you are hijacked by everyone around you.
00:23:32.119 --> 00:23:33.880
Yeah, I definitely want to get into it.
00:23:33.960 --> 00:23:35.000
I think you have a great model.
00:23:35.079 --> 00:23:41.799
It's like five, five or four or five like different types of emotional intelligence that that combine all of emotional intelligence.
00:23:42.039 --> 00:23:48.039
I want you to that, I just wanted to add that fight and flight get a lot, get a lot.
00:23:48.119 --> 00:23:49.240
They have a great PR person.
00:23:49.319 --> 00:23:51.640
The flight or fight response is a great PR person.
00:23:51.720 --> 00:23:59.880
What has less of a great PR person is the tend and befriend response, which was just as vital to our ancestor, to your point, Jay.
00:23:59.960 --> 00:24:01.960
This is something that is in our wiring.
00:24:02.039 --> 00:24:08.759
Like people who had this tend and befriend response, they had this capacity to bring people in closer, to get bring the group in closer.
00:24:08.920 --> 00:24:16.599
And of course, that's a survival mechanism because the worst thing that you could have in those times be out ostracized from the tribe.
00:24:16.759 --> 00:24:25.319
So this tend and befriend response is critical even for the most masculine, angry type warrior, still actually at huge capacity.
00:24:25.559 --> 00:24:29.480
Anthropologists are fine, they're have huge capacities for this tend and befriend response.
00:24:29.559 --> 00:24:39.880
And I think this is something that's getting a little bit misguided, especially in, you know, you and I as men, we pay attention to a lot of men's issues, a lot of psychological men's issues in this generation.
00:24:39.960 --> 00:24:44.279
And it's very interesting to us, and I think both of us would think they're on the wrong path.
00:24:44.440 --> 00:24:49.400
They're very much like, yeah, kill, kill and eat your food, protect, and all those things.
00:24:49.559 --> 00:24:56.519
There is an element of masculinity that I agree with that, but they're totally ignoring the tend and befriend response.
00:24:56.920 --> 00:25:01.640
Really masculine men can be really warm and really welcoming and really inclusive.
00:25:01.720 --> 00:25:02.920
They can do all those things too.
00:25:03.079 --> 00:25:12.519
So I just wanted to add to that, but I definitely think we should get into maybe the what these components of of really emotional intelligence, emotional regulation, whatever you call it, is.
00:25:12.599 --> 00:25:17.960
And then maybe we finish up, Jay, probably speaking to the people who are a little too far the other way.
00:25:18.119 --> 00:25:21.400
We probably don't have a lot of these people who are who are anti-empathy on this call.
00:25:21.480 --> 00:25:24.680
They're probably people like, I'm empathetic, but they might be going too far the other way.
00:25:24.759 --> 00:25:28.920
So maybe we can finish with some like how-tos, like maybe how they should be thinking as well.
00:25:29.000 --> 00:25:31.640
But yeah, go through the go through your uh emotional intelligence model.
00:25:31.720 --> 00:25:33.319
I think that's well first, yeah, I will.
00:25:33.400 --> 00:25:46.839
But yeah, first, I want to just talk about this this men's issue stuff briefly, you know, because and you know, uh, we were thinking that maybe some of my some of our other uh bros would come on, especially my nephews who are a little younger.
00:25:47.160 --> 00:25:56.519
But, you know, it's interesting to me because when you look at, at least as a young man, like, you know, what you know, what are what are young men sort of really after if you think about it, right?
00:25:56.599 --> 00:26:07.480
Like as a young man, you're basically like, okay, you know, sex and attraction, um, power and sort of income, you know, sort of status kind of thing.
00:26:07.640 --> 00:26:16.200
And what's really interesting about that is that those games, and this again is very clearly mapped out, those games are most won.
00:26:16.440 --> 00:26:19.160
You have someone who's an asshole, right?
00:26:19.319 --> 00:26:24.519
And I know there are examples of that all over the world where there are these powerful assholes.
00:26:24.920 --> 00:26:32.680
But the fact of the matter is, if you want deep connection with a woman, empathy and compassion, you better understand those.
00:26:32.920 --> 00:26:54.759
If you want to uh basically uh create a community that can give you status and build this whole idea of networking and stuff like that, you're going to be fair far better by looking to bring people together, which again can't happen without empathy and compassion.
00:26:54.920 --> 00:27:05.319
I would even argue that the narcissists of the world who gain power, they do that through manipulation of empathy and compassion.
00:27:05.480 --> 00:27:15.480
So even though they might not have it and they are completely self-centered, they are masters of using it to get people uh on their teams.
00:27:15.720 --> 00:27:30.039
And so, from my perspective, if you're a man listening to this and you're just like, I want to win, even if that's where you're coming from and it's completely self, you know, like just all about me, self-absorbed, still empathy and compassion win.
00:27:30.119 --> 00:27:34.440
And I think the data are incredibly clear on that.
00:27:34.839 --> 00:27:38.200
So, just real quick, how do you get emotional maturity?
00:27:38.279 --> 00:27:40.039
It goes through child development.
00:27:40.119 --> 00:27:43.720
And again, this is my model, but it's based on child development.
00:27:43.880 --> 00:27:57.000
It's basically like if me and Danny are little kids and we are just acting out all the time, the first thing our parents are going to be uh priming us on is emotional regulation, right?
00:27:57.240 --> 00:27:58.599
You need to calm down.
00:27:58.839 --> 00:28:02.680
You can't just, you know, be yelling all the time.
00:28:02.759 --> 00:28:13.079
And, you know, it's like there is an impetus in the parent to try to emotionally regulate for the child first, but then teach emotional regulation next.
00:28:13.160 --> 00:28:15.319
And so we need emotional regulation.
00:28:15.480 --> 00:28:18.200
To me, the next thing is they're gonna teach you about appropriateness.
00:28:18.279 --> 00:28:23.400
Danny can't throw a temper tantrum, Jade can't throw a temper tantrum just anywhere out in public.
00:28:23.559 --> 00:28:26.759
You know, parents, you'll remember, parents will be like, you can't do that here.
00:28:26.839 --> 00:28:35.960
You'd be punished for or put in your place about the appropriateness of doing that when guests are around, or the appropriateness of doing that in public.
00:28:36.359 --> 00:28:40.119
So it's this idea of regulation, then appropriateness.
00:28:40.359 --> 00:28:43.960
That's a lot of where a lot of people's maturity stops.
00:28:44.119 --> 00:28:50.200
The next piece, I think for men, this is men, women have this nailed, but men don't, which is emotional integrity.
00:28:50.359 --> 00:28:51.319
What am I feeling?
00:28:51.480 --> 00:28:54.359
Am I sad, but I'm projecting it as anger?
00:28:54.839 --> 00:28:56.359
What am I really feeling?
00:28:56.519 --> 00:28:58.200
Where am I feeling it in my body?
00:28:58.359 --> 00:29:05.480
The next would be emotional vulnerability, which essentially says, can I share what I am feeling with others?
00:29:05.640 --> 00:29:05.960
Right?
00:29:06.039 --> 00:29:07.720
Like, can I actually share that?
00:29:07.880 --> 00:29:23.880
And then finally, which is the most advanced skill, would be emotional alchemy, which this is where we get into empathy, which emotional alchemy is to be able to feel something and change it into something more appropriate and more regulated to get something done.
00:29:24.039 --> 00:29:33.000
An example would be like if I'm mad, anyone has ever been through, you know, the a bad breakup, you know, there's a stage where first you're sad, then you get angry.
00:29:33.079 --> 00:29:40.680
And oftentimes that turns into drive and motivation, if you're healthy, to better yourself, to get in shape, like all those things.
00:29:40.839 --> 00:29:43.640
So to me, that is the way that we move forward.
00:29:43.720 --> 00:29:45.079
But we need this alchemy.
00:29:45.240 --> 00:29:47.640
We need all of them really, but you have they build on each other.
00:29:47.799 --> 00:29:49.880
If you don't have regulation, you don't have appropriateness.
00:29:49.960 --> 00:29:52.680
If you don't have appropriateness, you can't be in emotional integrity.
00:29:52.759 --> 00:29:56.519
If you don't have emotional integrity, well, you can't share that and be emotionally vulnerable.
00:29:56.599 --> 00:30:05.480
And if you don't have all of those, you can't have emotional alchemy and be able to use these emotions and change them to be more appropriate.
00:30:05.640 --> 00:30:16.519
So to me, when we're talking about empathy, you need all of these because if I feel Danny and the energy coming off of him and I get consumed in his sadness or consumed in his anger, I'm kind of hurting both of us.
00:30:16.680 --> 00:30:27.559
But if I basically go into this place where I get regulated, by the way, science shows if I'm regulated emotionally and Danny's having an emotional event, he's far more likely to be regulated.
00:30:27.640 --> 00:30:28.839
This is co-regulation.
00:30:28.920 --> 00:30:30.519
It's very well, you know, balanced.
00:30:30.599 --> 00:30:33.720
If I come up with him and I'm like, dude, you're all right, I got you.
00:30:33.799 --> 00:30:35.079
You know, like we're good.
00:30:35.240 --> 00:30:37.640
He's gonna be more likely to regulate.
00:30:37.799 --> 00:30:47.000
We don't have enough people, A, in my mind, who have this kind of emotional maturity, who have learned it, and B, will apply it in a way.
00:30:47.160 --> 00:30:54.119
And to me, so I do think empathy is an advanced, and compassion is kind of an advanced emotional state.
00:30:54.279 --> 00:30:55.720
It requires all of these.
00:30:55.799 --> 00:31:07.000
And if you're not well versed, then empathy will feel dangerous and like weakness to you because you can't hold it in the way that you probably should be able to.
00:31:07.640 --> 00:31:09.480
Let me get your take on this, man.
00:31:09.559 --> 00:31:13.880
So shout out to Time Millionaires back in the day, one of Jade's early programs.
00:31:14.039 --> 00:31:22.680
One of the one of the modules was all about like how to create your own frameworks and how to, you know, it's it's it's all the stuff that you do all the time.
00:31:22.759 --> 00:31:26.279
But how do you take all the information and synthesize it into a very basic framework?
00:31:26.359 --> 00:31:34.200
So one of the things that I've used for me, and I've been teaching this, and so I'll I want your honest feedback, Jay, because sometimes when I teach it, people kind of kind of glaze over.
00:31:34.279 --> 00:31:36.599
But it's worked for me to develop some of these skills.
00:31:36.759 --> 00:31:45.319
So when it comes to, well, just I'm calling your kind of your whole package emotional intelligence or maybe it's emotional regulation, but I love that model.
00:31:45.400 --> 00:31:50.680
One model I do to actually practice becoming that, as I I have something I call the feel model.
00:31:50.839 --> 00:31:52.920
And maybe I just stole this right off of you, Dave.
00:31:53.000 --> 00:31:58.039
But I think because you might have a feel model too, but my and so tell me if I'm just saying your stuff back to you.
00:31:58.200 --> 00:32:00.440
But these are there the feel acronym.
00:32:00.599 --> 00:32:04.279
First is the F, which is feeling, meaning identify the feeling.
00:32:04.359 --> 00:32:14.119
So one of the things that psychologists have found is emotional granularity, like having emotional vocabulary actually makes us all five of those things that you talk about.
00:32:14.200 --> 00:32:21.400
Uh, emotional, from emotional understanding to emotional uh regulation to emotional vulnerability, being able to get down.
00:32:21.480 --> 00:32:23.559
It's not like we know this about men.
00:32:23.799 --> 00:32:25.799
Men feel anything and it's anger.
00:32:25.960 --> 00:32:26.759
Men get mad.
00:32:26.839 --> 00:32:29.240
It's like caveman one, I'm sad, I'm mad.
00:32:29.400 --> 00:32:30.519
I'm tired, I'm mad.
00:32:30.680 --> 00:32:31.799
I'm annoyed, I'm mad.
00:32:31.880 --> 00:32:40.119
Like it's just anger, but there's there is a thing, I think they've identified like 4,000 different uh experiences that we can have on a granular level.
00:32:40.279 --> 00:32:44.519
So the more we get practice on identifying the specific feeling, it's like, no, I'm not mad.
00:32:44.599 --> 00:32:46.359
I'm actually hurt, I'm actually betrayed.
00:32:46.440 --> 00:32:49.480
I'm actually, I'm I am just annoyed for the moment.
00:32:49.640 --> 00:32:54.680
Being able to identify the feeling actually takes a lot of the feeling of the intensity of the feeling away.
00:32:54.839 --> 00:32:56.599
So F is feeling.
00:32:56.920 --> 00:32:59.079
The first E is engage.
00:32:59.720 --> 00:33:02.839
So the immediate thing that we want to do is run.
00:33:02.920 --> 00:33:03.880
And I get this too.
00:33:04.039 --> 00:33:11.319
My my anxiety response in my 20s was to immediately turn on basketball and eat a giant bowl of Chipotle.
00:33:11.559 --> 00:33:15.720
And that helped me just get away from whatever men feel bad feelings.
00:33:15.799 --> 00:33:16.759
I could get away from those.
00:33:16.839 --> 00:33:19.720
So my new practice, meaning engage mean just sit with it.
00:33:19.880 --> 00:33:21.000
Like don't try to run from it.
00:33:21.079 --> 00:33:24.759
Don't just turn on the television, don't just get on Instagram and check out of it.
00:33:24.920 --> 00:33:30.279
Kind of sit with it, which leads to the next E, which is to, well, engage is also like where does it show up in your body, right?
00:33:30.359 --> 00:33:31.640
This is a mindfulness practice.
00:33:31.799 --> 00:33:33.799
So it's like, okay, I'm feeling it in my stomach.
00:33:33.880 --> 00:33:35.079
Oh, I feel it really in my chest.
00:33:35.240 --> 00:33:36.519
Oh, it feels like it's in my throat.
00:33:36.599 --> 00:33:38.680
It's starting to identify and place that.
00:33:38.839 --> 00:33:42.200
Again, it's just a mindfulness practice that helps dissipate the intensity.
00:33:42.359 --> 00:33:44.519
The second E is explore.
00:33:44.759 --> 00:33:46.440
So why am I feeling this emotion?
00:33:46.599 --> 00:33:48.680
Every time I hang out with this person, I'm pissed off.
00:33:48.839 --> 00:33:50.759
Every time I hang out with this person, I'm drained.
00:33:50.839 --> 00:33:54.119
Every time I do this type of work, I get really annoyed.
00:33:54.200 --> 00:33:55.079
I get really short.
00:33:55.160 --> 00:33:59.640
Like something for me, and this is not a big insight, but I think most of us know this.
00:33:59.720 --> 00:34:03.000
But yes, I if I don't hit eight hours of sleep, and yes, I mean eight hours.
00:34:03.160 --> 00:34:04.440
Seven, I'm worse off.
00:34:04.599 --> 00:34:06.119
Six, I'm I'm toast.
00:34:06.440 --> 00:34:08.039
But I need eight hours of sleep.
00:34:08.119 --> 00:34:09.880
And if I don't, I get annoyed easier.
00:34:10.039 --> 00:34:11.480
I take things personally more easier.
00:34:11.640 --> 00:34:18.680
So just having that connection, okay, why is this experience coming up and exploring some of those things, maybe through some of your journaling practices that you talk about?
00:34:18.760 --> 00:34:20.119
That's an explore phase.
00:34:20.199 --> 00:34:21.159
Where is this coming from?
00:34:21.239 --> 00:34:25.400
And then the L is live, live out your values, no matter how you feel.
00:34:25.480 --> 00:34:32.279
And that's sort of what you're saying, the appropriateness piece of this is I am pissed, but also my value is kindness.
00:34:32.440 --> 00:34:34.680
My value is empathy, my value is compassion.
00:34:34.840 --> 00:34:37.720
So to practice that, it's a muscle like anything else.
00:34:37.800 --> 00:34:40.279
So I don't know if I just took that straight from you, dude.
00:34:40.440 --> 00:34:43.800
No, but that's kind of my field model of emotional intelligence.
00:34:44.039 --> 00:34:49.319
Identify the feeling, engage, explore where it's coming from, and then live out your values anyway.
00:34:49.400 --> 00:34:50.920
That's kind of been my practice that I've been talking about.
00:34:51.079 --> 00:34:51.559
Yeah, I love it.
00:34:51.640 --> 00:34:54.920
My my field model is F-E-E-L, is probably what you're thinking.
00:34:55.000 --> 00:34:58.359
And it comes from, it's what I use for people when they're going through breakups, right?
00:34:58.440 --> 00:35:00.279
So it's first feel the emotion.
00:35:00.440 --> 00:35:05.640
The next one is exercise because it has the ability to uh move us out of our trauma.
00:35:05.800 --> 00:35:09.640
It has some really good and and drama, it has some really good effects there.
00:35:09.800 --> 00:35:12.039
And then the next one is edit the story.
00:35:12.119 --> 00:35:15.880
And then even sometimes you have to eliminate that person and all the reminders from your life.
00:35:15.960 --> 00:35:17.400
And then the next one is live a new life.
00:35:17.559 --> 00:35:19.159
So that's where you're kind of getting that highlight.
00:35:21.880 --> 00:35:22.599
Yeah, that's interesting.
00:35:22.680 --> 00:35:27.079
Yeah, I'll I must, I'll say I must have pulled this, but that's something I've been thinking of a lot.
00:35:27.159 --> 00:35:33.719
But maybe we can talk a little bit about Jade sort of sort of on the back end here for those people who are like, look, I am emotionally intelligent.
00:35:33.800 --> 00:35:34.760
Look, I am empathetic.
00:35:34.840 --> 00:35:40.599
My problem is that, yeah, people walk off, people, people are doing what Elon Musk said at the beginning of this conversation.
00:35:40.679 --> 00:35:41.800
They are walking all over me.
00:35:41.880 --> 00:35:48.440
They are taking advantage of me that I am left like at the end of the day, totally exhausted and burnt out.
00:35:48.599 --> 00:35:56.760
So, what can I do to start maybe uh I don't know, showing up a little bit differently so I'm not feeling all these things without losing that piece of myself that I'm really proud of.
00:35:56.840 --> 00:35:58.840
I'm proud that I'm kind, I'm proud that I'm empathetic.
00:35:59.000 --> 00:36:01.719
But at this point, I'm getting I'm getting my ass kicked with this.
00:36:01.800 --> 00:36:05.639
So maybe we can sort of wrap this up with some of those, some of your tips around that.
00:36:05.880 --> 00:36:15.719
I I think it's it's back to this idea of emotions and the idea of becoming emotionally stagnant or only having one play in the playbook, right?
00:36:15.800 --> 00:36:21.480
So, like you can imagine a football team that only has one play and they run it every time, right up the middle.
00:36:21.559 --> 00:36:22.440
You know, that's our play.
00:36:22.599 --> 00:36:27.639
What's gonna happen is the defense is going to know that's the play they're running all the time.
00:36:27.880 --> 00:36:36.199
You're gonna feel like you're being taken advantage of because you can't move anybody because you've only got one play in your playbook.
00:36:36.280 --> 00:36:56.760
And that play in the playbook is simply to be, you said, like for a lot of these people, agreeable and not necessarily confront people or not have boundaries and just kind of be like whatever or let it go or whatever their one thing that they normally do with difficult people or whatever it is, and then resentment builds.
00:36:56.840 --> 00:36:59.239
And we see this all the time in one-on-one coaching, right?
00:36:59.320 --> 00:37:07.480
I'm always looking at where is the story of resentment, you know, and the story of bitterness that comes from past hurts.
00:37:07.880 --> 00:37:12.599
And so from my perspective, it's actually a pretty easy fix to talk about.
00:37:12.679 --> 00:37:17.880
It's a difficult thing to actually do, and all it is is teaching people a different move.
00:37:17.960 --> 00:37:27.079
And actually, I think probably the best model that I think you and I both love would be um the model of, you know, um uh Grant, right?
00:37:27.159 --> 00:37:33.800
You know, his model of you have to be able to change your emotional reciprocity style.
00:37:33.960 --> 00:37:40.679
So this to me goes into this idea of givers, uh, takers, and matchers.
00:37:40.840 --> 00:38:00.599
And the idea, I think, of what happens with people who do get taken advantage of, they tend to be empathetic, they tend to be givers, they tend to have this view that everyone is default good, which I think is not as bad, but almost as useless as thinking everyone is default bad, right?
00:38:00.679 --> 00:38:07.400
Like to me, I go, everyone is human, everyone suffers, and everyone is operating from a story that they believe is right.
00:38:07.559 --> 00:38:11.000
It's not good or bad, it's just me trying to decipher their story.
00:38:11.159 --> 00:38:19.639
And so then what I do, instead of being a giver or a taker, if I'm a giver and I match with takers, they're gonna take all of the time.
00:38:19.719 --> 00:38:21.159
And I'm just gonna be starved.
00:38:21.239 --> 00:38:31.480
And what I have to recognize is I can default give, but if I meet takers all the time, I've got to change my reciprocity style, my emotional way of handling.
00:38:31.559 --> 00:38:33.239
And this is just a way of saying boundaries.
00:38:33.400 --> 00:38:35.559
So don't get caught up in the psychological language.
00:38:35.639 --> 00:38:38.760
It's just I need boundaries to say, oh, you're one of those.
00:38:39.000 --> 00:38:42.280
You've got kind of this story that is making you be this way.
00:38:42.440 --> 00:38:45.800
I've got to change my way of behaving with you.
00:38:46.039 --> 00:38:51.480
What we do instead is we go, everyone should just match, meet me where I'm at.
00:38:51.559 --> 00:38:53.559
If I'm nice, everyone should be nice to me.
00:38:53.639 --> 00:38:56.360
If I'm giving and generous, everyone should be giving and generous.
00:38:56.440 --> 00:39:01.000
And I go, that's not the way it works because some people have been giving and generous and gotten burned.
00:39:01.079 --> 00:39:03.239
So now they're not giving and generous.
00:39:03.320 --> 00:39:07.159
And so to me, I just go, what is it that they are working with?
00:39:07.320 --> 00:39:17.239
And let me, I have to be the one to adjust the way that I show up with them, which is to say, understanding boundaries and standards.
00:39:17.400 --> 00:39:21.400
Uh, real quick, to me, a boundary is a flexible way of behaving.
00:39:21.480 --> 00:39:23.559
I can adjust my boundaries.
00:39:23.639 --> 00:39:28.760
Like if you're rude to, let's say, uh a server, that's a boundary of mine.
00:39:28.920 --> 00:39:34.440
I'm gonna, I might, but it's not a hard and fast rule that I'm not gonna be friends with you if you're rude to a service professional.
00:39:34.519 --> 00:39:38.840
However, if I see you do that five, six times and I'm like, okay, it wasn't just a bad day.
00:39:38.920 --> 00:39:45.639
You're just an asshole to service professional, then I'm like, now then I move you to the standard category where I'm like, I don't deal with those kind of people.
00:39:45.800 --> 00:39:47.880
But boundaries should be flexible.
00:39:48.199 --> 00:39:51.320
Standards are, you know, something that's written in the sand.
00:39:51.400 --> 00:39:57.320
You know, I like to think of it as the World War I trench warfare where there's trenches on either side and this boundary zone in the middle.
00:39:57.480 --> 00:40:01.400
You come in the boundary zone, you may get shot at, you know, you may not.
00:40:02.039 --> 00:40:05.559
But you get into someone else's trench, that's it for you, right?
00:40:05.639 --> 00:40:07.000
So I think we need to operate like that.
00:40:07.079 --> 00:40:15.159
I'm like, you know, if uh, you know, someone does something to me that I can slightly deal with, but I don't like, I'm gonna be like, look, it's kind of crossing my boundaries.
00:40:15.239 --> 00:40:17.320
It's on me to change my approach with them.
00:40:17.480 --> 00:40:22.440
But there are certain things where if you behave a certain way, I have my standards, which is a one-strike rule.
00:40:22.519 --> 00:40:23.960
That's kind of how I see it.
00:40:24.119 --> 00:40:31.480
We need the flexibility, and that flexibility comes with, once again, regulation, appropriateness, emotional alchemy.
00:40:31.559 --> 00:40:40.679
How can you be flexible if you can't understand what I'm feeling, what's going on with this person, feel what they're feeling, and adjust.
00:40:40.840 --> 00:40:50.199
And once again, even narcissists who tend to get power in difficult times and you know, tend to be voted into power, they are self-centered.
00:40:50.280 --> 00:41:01.559
It's all about them, but they are masters in appearing like they're not, because whether they're using it or not, they have mastered this technology, this emotional technology to manipulate.
00:41:01.719 --> 00:41:15.400
I know we don't like that term manipulate, but we also have to master this emotional technology that Danny and I are talking about to manipulate not other people, but to manipulate our sovereignty in a sense.
00:41:16.199 --> 00:41:20.119
Yeah, just so uh one of my things, love books.
00:41:20.199 --> 00:41:23.079
So I'll I'll shout out the book that Jade's talking about real quick.
00:41:23.159 --> 00:41:24.760
It's by Adam Grant, which he said it's called.
00:41:25.239 --> 00:41:26.199
Give and take.
00:41:26.360 --> 00:41:35.800
And the fascinating research that he did was he was like, let's see where these people land on the what he calls the success ladder.
00:41:35.960 --> 00:41:43.079
Who in this group of givers, people who tend to give first, tend to go out of their way to help other people, they kind of lead with that.
00:41:43.239 --> 00:41:45.880
Then there's takers who obviously do the opposite, right?
00:41:45.960 --> 00:41:49.239
They they take first, they're looking for their opportunities to get theirs.
00:41:49.400 --> 00:41:54.280
And then they have what they call matchers, which is let me just wait and see what Jay does, and then I'll copy him.
00:41:54.360 --> 00:41:55.800
So if he's a giver, I'll be a giver.
00:41:55.880 --> 00:41:57.639
If he's a taker, then I'm gonna be a taker.
00:41:57.800 --> 00:42:02.199
And so the piece of research that he does is says, who finishes highest on the success ladder?
00:42:02.280 --> 00:42:03.239
And I do this in my workshops.
00:42:03.400 --> 00:42:04.199
I go, who do you guys think?
00:42:04.280 --> 00:42:06.679
Who do you think fits on the top of the success ladder?
00:42:06.840 --> 00:42:11.960
Everybody goes, oh, givers for sure, because we sort of are trained in this good versus evil model.
00:42:12.119 --> 00:42:12.760
And they're right.
00:42:12.920 --> 00:42:15.159
Givers do finish on top of the success ladder.
00:42:15.239 --> 00:42:18.280
Then I ask, who finishes at the bottom of the success ladder?
00:42:18.360 --> 00:42:27.960
And when we say success, anything from work, promotions, and status to salaries to fulfillment, all across any way you define success, Grant found that, yep, this is true.
00:42:28.039 --> 00:42:29.320
Is that who finishes at the bottom?
00:42:29.400 --> 00:42:31.480
And they always go, the takers finish at the bottom.
00:42:31.559 --> 00:42:33.239
And it's like, actually, no.
00:42:33.559 --> 00:42:35.000
Givers finish at the bottom.
00:42:35.159 --> 00:42:37.159
The difference is what Jade is talking about.
00:42:37.320 --> 00:42:43.320
So givers basically go first, but then when they engage with a taker, they don't treat keep trying to give.
00:42:43.400 --> 00:42:44.679
That becomes a martyr.
00:42:44.840 --> 00:42:49.480
And that's a huge line I deal with with people who are highly agreeable, people pleaser tight.
00:42:49.639 --> 00:42:51.239
They'll just keep, well, this is the way I am.
00:42:51.400 --> 00:42:55.159
It's like, then you're gonna keep getting stomped on, unfortunately.
00:42:55.400 --> 00:42:58.679
So it's some, and that's where your boundaries and standards come into play, which I love.
00:42:58.840 --> 00:43:03.880
The other book that I'd recommend for people who struggle with this, Man or Woman, is no more Mr.
00:43:04.039 --> 00:43:04.440
Nice Guy.
00:43:04.519 --> 00:43:06.119
I believe the author is Robert Glover.
00:43:06.199 --> 00:43:11.400
And it sounds a little, the title sounds like a little snarky, but we all know what this nice guy thing is.
00:43:11.559 --> 00:43:17.400
When women talk about nice guys, they're not talking about guys that they want to be with and be in a relationship with.
00:43:17.559 --> 00:43:21.719
When men talk about nice guys, they're not saying someone I look up to, someone I respect.
00:43:21.800 --> 00:43:25.079
So we know kind of how we loosely define this nice guy syndrome.
00:43:25.159 --> 00:43:26.519
That's what that book is all about.
00:43:26.679 --> 00:43:34.840
And a big practice from that book is practicing engaging in conflict because it's it's the zone that all people pleasers hate.
00:43:35.000 --> 00:43:39.960
So practice engaging in cont in conflict, practice with radical honesty.
00:43:40.199 --> 00:43:42.599
And that's a lot harder for us people pleasers.
00:43:42.679 --> 00:43:45.000
It's a lot easier said than done, rather, right?
00:43:45.159 --> 00:43:47.320
And so one of the things, I'll just share this with the audience.
00:43:47.400 --> 00:43:51.639
I read that book and it really shifted my sort of internal processing.
00:43:51.719 --> 00:43:53.159
And so I started doing these things.
00:43:53.239 --> 00:43:55.000
I was like, all right, I'm just gonna be radically honest.
00:43:55.079 --> 00:43:57.559
All right, I'm going to lean into conflict.
00:43:57.639 --> 00:43:58.760
I'm not going to avoid it.
00:43:58.840 --> 00:44:03.239
And I just wanted to tell people this is a little embarrassing, but there is going to be an overcorrection period.
00:44:03.480 --> 00:44:11.559
This, like anything else, you're going to cross a line, you're going to show up in a way that that's not exactly like I'm overcompensating for the people pleaser.
00:44:11.639 --> 00:44:18.599
And so the last couple of years, I've rocked relationships, I've transformed relationships, I've lost a couple friends, I've gained a couple friends.
00:44:18.679 --> 00:44:20.679
And that was really freaking hard for me.
00:44:20.840 --> 00:44:26.039
When your primary value is to be liked and to be appreciated, and I am the guy who's, oh, Danny's here.
00:44:26.119 --> 00:44:26.679
It's easy.
00:44:26.760 --> 00:44:27.800
It should be humorous.
00:44:27.880 --> 00:44:29.159
It's go with the flow.
00:44:29.320 --> 00:44:31.079
And now I'm in here rocking the boat.
00:44:31.239 --> 00:44:33.480
That was really, really difficult for me.
00:44:33.559 --> 00:44:35.559
And I'm embarrassed about how I showed up.
00:44:35.639 --> 00:44:37.320
But it's kind of part of the process.
00:44:37.480 --> 00:44:39.719
So I just want to share with some of the peel pleasers out there.
00:44:39.800 --> 00:44:43.880
It's really critical that you engage in some of these things and lean in to conflict.
00:44:43.960 --> 00:44:46.920
And yeah, sometimes you're gonna be like, that was kind of an asshole move.
00:44:47.000 --> 00:44:47.800
That's not how I want to be.
00:44:47.880 --> 00:44:48.360
And that's okay.
00:44:48.440 --> 00:44:50.679
It's sort of part of the figuring out process.
00:44:50.760 --> 00:45:01.079
And the last thing I'll just share to touch on what you said, Jade, I heard this recently and I wanted to see what you think about this, but boundaries is another way that people pleasers overcorrect.
00:45:01.159 --> 00:45:02.920
So they go, all right, these are my boundaries.
00:45:03.079 --> 00:45:07.639
And what they mix up is a boundary is not for other people, it's for us.
00:45:07.880 --> 00:45:10.519
So what they do is they go, my boundary is this.
00:45:10.679 --> 00:45:12.199
Don't talk to me like that, Jade.
00:45:12.280 --> 00:45:12.840
That's my boundary.
00:45:12.920 --> 00:45:14.119
You're not allowed to talk to me like that.
00:45:14.280 --> 00:45:15.239
That's not a boundary.
00:45:15.320 --> 00:45:16.840
That's just telling Jade what to do.
00:45:17.000 --> 00:45:21.960
The boundary is every time Jade talks to me like that, I'm gonna leave.
00:45:22.199 --> 00:45:23.960
That's something I'm doing within my control.
00:45:24.039 --> 00:45:25.400
So it's not telling people what to do.
00:45:25.480 --> 00:45:26.280
That's my boundary.
00:45:26.360 --> 00:45:28.039
You can't do that, you can't say that.
00:45:28.199 --> 00:45:33.800
It's no, this is my boundary, mean this is what I'm gonna do in these situations or when these things come up.
00:45:33.960 --> 00:45:36.840
And like you said, there is nuance in those, but that's the practice.
00:45:37.000 --> 00:45:43.079
If I have a boundary of this, practicing saying, all right, that didn't go, that that's across my boundary.
00:45:43.159 --> 00:45:43.960
I have to do something about it.
00:45:44.119 --> 00:45:47.000
I have to leave, I have to change a relationship, I have to change my behavior.
00:45:47.079 --> 00:45:48.519
It's not telling other people what to do.
00:45:48.679 --> 00:45:50.280
So that was a key distinction I've learned recently.
00:45:50.360 --> 00:45:52.360
I'm like, that's really good because that's what a boundary is.
00:45:52.440 --> 00:45:55.400
Because a lot of people go, this is my truth, and get out of my way.
00:45:55.480 --> 00:45:57.960
And it's like, that's not exactly a boundary, right?
00:45:58.119 --> 00:46:00.199
So I don't know what you think about that, but I like that distinction.
00:46:00.360 --> 00:46:02.360
Boundary is about us, we set it for ourselves.
00:46:02.440 --> 00:46:04.840
We're not necessarily setting it for other people.
00:46:05.159 --> 00:46:16.440
Now, I I actually love that you said that because one of the one of the things I could say in my clinical coaching practice over the years, you know, and of course, I'm part clinician, part counselor, sort of part coach.
00:46:16.519 --> 00:46:20.760
So being in a clinic as a doctor is a little different than the coaching counseling thing.
00:46:20.840 --> 00:46:27.000
But one of the things that uh speaks to this, and I always couch it as expectations and assumptions.
00:46:27.159 --> 00:46:34.679
And I'll throw this out at you and then we can begin to wrap up, but I want to see what people think about this because it you can call it boundary standards, but you're right.
00:46:34.760 --> 00:46:38.599
We have to then have a conversation about expectations and assumptions.
00:46:38.760 --> 00:46:51.079
And I oftentimes say to people that same thing you said, expectations and assumptions are always and only for self, not for other, for the exact same reasons.
00:46:51.239 --> 00:47:03.400
And as soon as I say that, people will immediately get uncomfortable because they're like, well, if I'm in a relationship and we have an agreement, I need to expect that someone will have that agreement.
00:47:03.480 --> 00:47:12.119
And I'm like, no, you need to expect that if that agreement is violated, you will have a particular reaction to that.
00:47:12.280 --> 00:47:30.920
So the expectation and the assumption is not that Danny does what he says he's going to do, because that is impossible for me to control, but that if Danny doesn't say what he's going to do, then I have an expectation and assumption for myself on my behavior.
00:47:31.079 --> 00:47:35.400
So I'm just repeating exactly what Danny said uh in a different way.
00:47:35.559 --> 00:47:36.679
I agree completely.
00:47:36.840 --> 00:47:47.960
I just also think wording matters too, because if people under, if you understand what Danny just said about that, then I go, expectations and assumptions, I think, should fall into this discussion as well.
00:47:48.039 --> 00:47:52.440
And I think it does make people uncomfortable because those are different words.
00:47:52.599 --> 00:47:57.559
They come with a whole different set of emotional material and story behind them.
00:47:57.639 --> 00:48:01.960
But imagine the ultimate goal, I think, with this is emotional freedom.
00:48:02.119 --> 00:48:05.239
And you need like that would be another masterpiece, right?
00:48:05.320 --> 00:48:13.880
It's like the next level up from emotional alchemy, if we follow that path, is emotional freedom, which is really what stoicism was kind of talking about.
00:48:14.039 --> 00:48:16.760
And this is an advanced aspect of emotional freedom.
00:48:16.920 --> 00:48:24.679
It essentially says, you know, if you do a particular thing, I can't expect or assume that you're gonna do what I want you to do.
00:48:24.840 --> 00:48:27.639
What I can expect and assume is for you to do exactly what you're gonna do.
00:48:27.800 --> 00:48:32.360
All I can control is my reactions to it.
00:48:32.760 --> 00:48:37.880
And once again, I think this goes into the argument of empathy and compassion.
00:48:38.039 --> 00:48:42.679
If I have emotional freedom, I can show up and allay suffering.
00:48:42.840 --> 00:48:50.599
If I don't, I might get caught up in the suffering storm in my attempt to allay suffering.
00:48:50.760 --> 00:48:52.519
And so, and this is what happens.
00:48:52.760 --> 00:48:59.320
The best people, the best men, the best leaders in my mind have a mastery of this.
00:48:59.480 --> 00:49:11.000
And just from a rational, not that we're rational people, we're normally emotional, but just from a reasoned, rational, logical perspective, it is the thing that gives the most results in all the domains.
00:49:11.159 --> 00:49:18.360
Whether you want to be a great husband or partner, whether you want to be a great leader, this is the path in my mind.
00:49:19.719 --> 00:49:22.039
Yeah, I got nothing, I got nothing to add to that, Jade.
00:49:22.119 --> 00:49:27.320
I again, I think we are speaking to the people who are more on one side of the fence than the other.
00:49:27.480 --> 00:49:28.760
It's sort of this paradox.
00:49:28.840 --> 00:49:31.400
I in my head I call it like the self-development paradox.
00:49:31.480 --> 00:49:34.199
It's like the people who need self-development aren't really into it.
00:49:34.360 --> 00:49:38.199
The people who don't really need self-development, it's like an extension of the Dunning Kruger effect.
00:49:38.280 --> 00:49:39.960
It's like people who don't need self-development, love it.
00:49:40.039 --> 00:49:41.639
They're like, yeah, I need to develop my empathy.
00:49:41.719 --> 00:49:47.960
So I doubt we have a lot of people who are anti-empathy leaning in to learn in this conversation.
00:49:48.119 --> 00:49:49.960
So I just speaking to those people.
00:49:50.119 --> 00:49:51.960
I know you felt this way at some point in your life.
00:49:52.039 --> 00:49:57.079
I certainly, I told you I've been working through it the past couple of years, it's kind of peep, these people-pleasing tendencies.
00:49:57.159 --> 00:50:01.639
That's when empathy does go a little too far and there is a little bit of an overcorrection.
00:50:01.719 --> 00:50:04.679
And I just, I would, um, the final thing I would say is just like that.
00:50:04.760 --> 00:50:07.800
There is a process of change that is clunky.
00:50:07.880 --> 00:50:08.840
It does not feel good.
00:50:09.000 --> 00:50:10.679
That doesn't mean you're on the wrong path.
00:50:10.840 --> 00:50:18.360
It is going to be painful, like interpersonal conflict, especially when your primary value is to be likable and to make things easy for people.
00:50:18.440 --> 00:50:20.519
It to rock the boat feels horrible.
00:50:20.679 --> 00:50:29.239
You'll lose sleep, but I'm sort of getting to the other end of this process, or at least further down the field than I was two, three, four years ago.
00:50:29.480 --> 00:50:32.039
And the the emotional freedom, I love that term.
00:50:32.199 --> 00:50:34.119
I'm at far more peace.
00:50:34.280 --> 00:50:40.519
I it's far easier to have conversations now because I'm not constantly managing or monitoring things I'm saying.
00:50:40.679 --> 00:50:42.760
Uh, I'm still practicing my values.
00:50:42.840 --> 00:50:45.400
That's how I avoid showing up with an as an asshole.
00:50:45.480 --> 00:50:47.320
You don't want to just be like, well, I'm honest.
00:50:47.480 --> 00:50:50.039
That doesn't get you off the hook from being an asshole.
00:50:50.199 --> 00:50:51.079
It's what do you say?
00:50:51.159 --> 00:50:53.800
It's like honesty without compassion is cruelty, right?
00:50:54.039 --> 00:51:03.880
So just trying to balance these things, I think I would just tell people, the people who I expect are listening to this, that this is a clunky process, but it is a worthwhile process to go through.
00:51:04.360 --> 00:51:05.480
Yeah, I love it.
00:51:05.639 --> 00:51:11.400
Um, for all of you who want to uh make sure you follow Danny, because I'm live on all of mine here.
00:51:11.480 --> 00:51:14.039
Uh Danny is um on Substack.
00:51:14.119 --> 00:51:18.760
Tell them all, tell them your handles, Danny, because you're in all the places and they're gonna want to follow you.
00:51:19.159 --> 00:51:24.280
Yeah, just uh just searching Danny Coleman on Substack right now is still it.
00:51:24.360 --> 00:51:27.639
But everywhere else it's at it's Danny Coleman.
00:51:27.880 --> 00:51:28.920
Don't forget the it's.
00:51:29.079 --> 00:51:29.960
It's Danny Coleman.
00:51:30.199 --> 00:51:32.119
People feel like it's Danny Coleman, like at Danny Coleman.
00:51:32.360 --> 00:51:33.239
No, don't forget the it's.
00:51:33.480 --> 00:51:34.840
But at it's Danny Coleman.
00:51:35.239 --> 00:51:37.400
Yeah, at it's Danny Coleman on all the stuff.
00:51:37.480 --> 00:51:40.920
And to find him easily, you can just go find my profile.
00:51:41.000 --> 00:51:42.360
Uh search for Danny.
00:51:42.440 --> 00:51:46.119
You'll find him there because I follow him on all those platforms.
00:51:46.280 --> 00:51:46.920
I love you, brother.
00:51:47.000 --> 00:51:51.320
I'm gonna um just stop this, stay on the line just so I can make sure everything loads up.
00:51:51.400 --> 00:51:54.360
But uh thank you so much, everyone, for uh hanging out with us.
00:51:54.440 --> 00:51:55.719
We'll talk soon.