WEBVTT
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Hello, everybody.
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Welcome back to the Neuro Inclusion Conversations from the Pond and across the pond and beyond.
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Our own podcast.
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Yes.
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And I'm here.
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I'm Pasha Marlowe here with Atif Chattery.
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Hello, Atif.
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Hi, Tasha.
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How are you?
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Hi, everybody listening.
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Um, it is hot here.
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UK is hot.
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I know I'm talking to an American audience, and I know you get real climate weather.
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When it's summer, it's summer.
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When it's winter, it's winter.
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But wow, it is hot here.
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We've hit 92.
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Yeah, that is hot.
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That is hot.
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And especially hot because, like you said, you don't have uh AC there in as many of the homes and buildings.
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So I can imagine it's quite uncomfortable.
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Yeah, yeah.
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It's it's it's turning into a spikely film here.
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I suspect it might do.
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I'm not sure.
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But the schools are out today and tomorrow.
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Yeah.
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And you know, I could sort of spend a little bit of time thinking about neurodiversity and how we cope with change, particularly climate change and weather changes or even uh hormones.
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But I'm not sure I will.
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But I I think I could think about that a lot, but I'm not sure I will, at least for now.
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Um, I would just sort of say is that it's wonderful to have good hot weather when you need it and want it, but it's interesting what it brings out in people when it's too something, it's too cold for this or it's yes, you know, and and it's not it's of course we will never have a perfect suit spot, you know?
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At least I don't think so.
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Yeah, and people with sensitive nervous systems are likely going to be more impacted by too hot, too cold, too noisy, whatever it is, too crowded.
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And so um, yeah, I know here it's pride, it's pride month for most of the country who celebrates.
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And uh, and even though I love Pride and identify as queer, I don't even go to the Pride events, not only because it's hot out, but because it's crowded and it's loud and I don't love parades.
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And so it's just interesting, but I know that's my nervous system.
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And I used to force myself to go because it seemed like the right thing to do, but then I never felt good.
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It didn't energize me, it didn't, it didn't feel safe, and so I just think it's interesting, you know, to when we honor our nervous systems in different environments and and also recognize that you know the heat might be more challenging for you than somebody else.
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Yeah, yeah.
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Okay, but it's a provocation to the audience, yeah.
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I like this.
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If I honored my nervous system all the time, I don't think I'd get out of bed.
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You know, you would just stay in bed.
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Yeah, well, I'm not sure you know, a teeth would exist, really, you know, because by nature I am an introvert, and yet, you know, the world doesn't necessarily know that or even would probably accept not accept that.
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It may even really challenge me that and whatever I might have said there, that may have been a guy a long time ago.
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I don't really know.
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I just know that my happy spot isn't going to a party that was in the diary for a long time.
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But my happy spot is suddenly a party coming around me when I'm not expecting it.
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Yeah.
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So I don't know how to explain that.
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But other than if I know something is gonna be planned in advance, then it feels like an obligation.
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And my nervous system says, Hey man, what gives?
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Are you ready for this?
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No, not really.
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Are you dressing up?
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Oh no, are you gonna no?
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Whereas if it's just suddenly happening, then I'm super happy.
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Yeah, the spontaneity of it is good for you.
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I am the other way.
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I like to know ahead of time where I'm going, how to manage my energy before, during, and after.
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Uh, I like preparing what I'm gonna wear and uh what I'm gonna eat.
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And yeah, so just different, different, different nervous systems.
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We haven't talked much about this, but I really would like to do two things today.
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One is acknowledge neurodiversity pride for all of us around the world and recognize what an amazing thing happened, you know, in so many countries around the world.
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And I want to touch on that a little bit, but I also want to ask you personally, like I'm fascinated by the idea as a guy who I know I'm dyslexic in a Western diagnosis, I know I'm ADHD in the in all of the things that come with that.
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I also know or believe that not everybody with ADHD has dyslexia.
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But I do believe the nature of dyslexia or the impact of it in a life leaves everyone with dyslexia with ADHD.
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You know?
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So what they might use is comorbidity.
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So learning isolation, let's just use that word.
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And I'll get to my point around this.
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The learning isolation of being a kid in a world that expects you to read and write and absorb information and articulate it in written form because everyone is doing it.
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Even though it's a 20th century phenomenon.
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And I really challenge folks.
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I know you you will say, oh no, no, there are people who have been reading and writing for 300, 400 years.
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Well, I'll say no.
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A certain class of people have been reading and writing for 300 years, what 400 years.
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But this is not everybody.
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And so for everyone to do it, it's a 20th century phenomenon.
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The impact of a child life to say working memory and literacy skills is how I get to count in this life.
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It's a lonely place when that's not your those two things, working memory and literacy skills, they're not in your armory yet, you know.
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Yeah, and you could find yourself thinking, well, if they're not in my armory, then maybe nothing is.
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Yes.
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And then the whole world says, no, kid, tons of things are.
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Look at this, look at that.
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If you're lucky, if you're lucky.
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Yes, yes, yes, we so much value the the ability people have to read or write in schools.
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It seems like almost all the other classes and experiences are devalued in comparison.
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And so uh for for me, I was I really leaned into the art and the theater, and I struggled with math uh through dysgraphia, still do.
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Uh numbers, numbers are like a foreign language to me still.
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And um, and math was the most important, not just in my school, but to my family.
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And if you were not good at math, you were not intelligent.
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And there was never a sense of multiple intelligences or different ways of being intelligent.
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And when I married my um current husband, my my final husband, hopefully, um uh he studied multiple intelligences, and that's how he teaches.
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So if a child struggles with, let's say, reading, um, but is really, you know, spatially intelligent or emotionally intelligent or kinesthetically intelligent, he makes sure to phrase it as such so that they know there are many ways to be intelligent.
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Unfortunately, society just value certain societies value some more than others, but that doesn't mean that a that a child is not uh smart or capable of of learning or success.
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Uh, but it takes it takes a teacher or a parent or some influence to to tell us that.
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That was not the message I received.
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Yeah, well, we measured children through productivity long, long, long before they're ready to go into workplace.
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You know?
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We measure children through what they bring to a society.
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Mm-hmm.
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And functional way long before we even talk to them about a workplace.
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Um but no, so the reason I'm bringing this up is because yes, it's neurodiversity pride.
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So we should take pride in those moments and and those realities, the the way we learn.
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I want to say again what amazing thing to have happened around the world.
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Um, but I've got a couple questions.
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One is for you personally, because I am interested in comorbidity, and it's a really rubbish word, so overlapping impacts, conditions, barriers, call it what we want.
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You know, it's just coexisting.
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Sometimes I'll say coexisting.
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Yeah, so there's a whole bunch of cover, but like I said, let's stay on the spontaneity thing, because you've shared that you have ADHD and autism.
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To me, there's a wonderful contradiction in those spaces, but I don't know how it works for you.
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And I wondered if you would share something about that.
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Yeah, I and I think I might have shared this in the past.
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Like to me, it's that they're almost constantly in battle with each other, and and it really depends on which one is in the driver's seat on any particular day.
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Um, because when you said if you honored your nervous system, you would just stay in bed all day uh when my ADHD is in the driver's seat.
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That's more how I feel.
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Like, uh, just like I'm not gonna do anything well anyhow.
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It's gonna be overwhelming.
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It's like I should, I, I need rest.
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I um, you know, I I don't feel like work is easeful.
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I might, I might just get down that rabbit hole.
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But um, but autism is so funny because I actually over, I overwork, I overperform, I overextend more often than not.
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And so I would not allow myself to be in bed unless I was very, very sick.
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Um, this is not at all, this is not good.
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This is not healthy.
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I'm just letting you know.
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Like I will get up at 5 a.m.
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and work all day until 10 p.m.
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And very often my husband will walk in the room and he'll say, Why are you sitting in the dark?
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And I'll say, I didn't even know it was dark in the room.
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I'm just on my computer, which means for five hours as the sun was setting, I wasn't even aware of my surroundings because I was so consumed in my work.
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So that's for me how they're very different.
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And typically autism is in the driver's seat, unless rejection sensitivity is in the room and then all my ADHD comes back.
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Wow, yeah, it's interesting.
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I now understand how you listen to me speak at two in the morning at your time when I was speaking in Dubai, that you were literally awake because you would have to wake up.
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Yeah.
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So I was like, wow, she's keen.
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She's really tuning in for this.
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Um, so all right, so let's let's take that on.
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Because I I don't have autism.
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I don't as a practitioner and a teacher and uh in the field of neurodiversity, I've always looked at autism and ADHD and thought, hmm, that must be quite a thing, you know?
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And as far as I know, I don't have autism, as far as I know, right?
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Um but I do know that I do not switch on until the afternoon.
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I don't and if I was to just then what go to bed till the afternoon, it's not gonna change anything, do you know?
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So uh I'm at my peak usually at this sort of time, which is now you know, quarter to seven in in the evening, you know.
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Yeah.
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My system is uh all guns firing right now.
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If you spoke to my colleagues and said, you know, how is it nine?
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Nine in the morning, yeah.
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So you should book Hati for keynotes at 7 p.m.
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Yeah, yeah, yeah.
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Because like at nine, seriously, I don't really talk much, not till 11, 12.
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Yeah.
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Um, well it's good listening, but also the brain is not, I can't recall things very well, names of things, people things, yeah.
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Yeah, well, to me, this speaks to you know capitalism and workplace expectations and honoring different uh energy levels and and you know, the cycles of energy that we're all on differently, and like the nine to five just isn't suitable for most people.
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And if you're in the workplace and hopefully you're in a more flexible schedule, if not an entrepreneur, you know, and and doing more project-based work so that you're not, you know, kind of forcing your nervous system to do something that that isn't in service to you.
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Absolutely.
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So this is a goes back to the point, right?
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That so much of our neurodiverse barriers and realities come do not come because we are autistic or ADHD or dyslexic.
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And yes, I know we're gonna spend a long time, and there's an industry on this about such things being okay and normal and part of our world, which is true.
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And that human condition is one of variety and differences and and and overlapping realities.
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But I think we don't spend enough time talking about, and I have touched on it before, so I'm not gonna elaborate too much on this course, that you know, and I've said in the UK and a mass disabling event happened.
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It was called the Industrial Revolution.
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Yes.
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And it wasn't just that we built factories, it was the entire change and makeup of the country.
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Yes.
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And uh death of communities, the death I mean, I think that J.R.
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Tolkien in a sense wrote Lord of Rings about that, you know, to a certain extent.
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That that we mobilized and people's sense of worth was based on how productive they were.
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Yeah, still Oh, and at the same time a light bulb was created, and it didn't just give light.
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It changed it was made by a diabetic, deaf, dyslexic man.
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You know, arguably Thomas Edison was not fun to be around.
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But but from his writing and his inventions and the way he worked, it does seem like a very dyslexic mindset.
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Interesting.
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But he didn't just give it light or create light in a world of candles, he changed economies.
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Yeah.
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You know, and so with it becomes what's productive, what's not, who is useful and who's not.
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Yeah.
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And we've touched on this a bit.
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But I'm throwing it back at you as a reminder to the audience.
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Does do you see a space, and I think I'm gonna ask the audience to think about it as well.
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Do you see a space around neurodiversity and how it can be understood outside of capitalism?
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Mm-hmm.
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Mm-hmm.
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Or productivity, if that's healthy to say.
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Well, I sure hope so.
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Uh if in the workplace in particular, it's going to be a more challenging road because I think still the workplace, most, if not all of them, are mostly focusing on productivity uh and profit, you know.
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And so uh I'm seeing, at least in my country, the United States, a resistance to um the human, the human case or just like inclusion for inclusion's sake, if there isn't a strong ROI to productivity or um engagement or retention or innovation.
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And I could argue till I'm blue in the face about innovation being like an easy um, you know, connection to diversity of thought, but um, but it's not enough right now.
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It seems that there's a very strong narrative about, and actually kind of gross.
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What I'm hearing is like we need to retention is not the goal, but we need to keep our best people because AI is going to take over so many jobs.
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So retention isn't so much the goal now, but we definitely need to keep our best people.
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And then you're like, what is a best person?
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What defines your best person?
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And then they say the person who is the most productive, um, the person, you know, who works the hardest with the most work ethic, you know, and and then that concerns me a great deal that that now there'll be less jobs and that the people who will be able to um, you know, stay in at work will have to even more so perhaps fit into these neurotypical capitalistic standards of what is a good or best worker, you know.
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And so I it's the opposite direction of what I'd like to see happen.
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Yeah, yeah.
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I am still in that um moment.
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Like I don't feel as dyslexic as I used to because of the way AI works.
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I I don't feel as lost in a list of emails that I need to deal with but won't deal with and wish I dealt with and then forget about them.
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Instead, I can just address them.
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I I I I speak to a machine and it fixes my grandma's burning for me, you know, and it does that so fast.
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It allows me to get on with other things.
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So AI in that sense is helpful, but I I absolutely agree.
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It's a younger generation that's going to take the toll here.
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But I I think like healthy children, and I think that's something I want to touch on for a second, but because healthy children by itself is an asset, you know, not for productivity, but just for uh fruction.
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Continuation of the human race.
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Yeah.
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But we don't we don't measure neurodiversity like that even.
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And I I was a dissecty guy, and I was like, yeah, you're really good at art.
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Well, I'm not.
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And I was like, it sucks to be me.
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I don't do art either.
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Not particularly.
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Um I think I've created things through a a kind of global canvas.
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When I look back on it.
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And I work as an artist of a kind, but I don't draw, you know.
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But I am able to visualize things and piece together a map that others struggled to see.
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Yeah.
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Your art is in your mind and heart, your vision.
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Yeah, yeah.
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And it's it's only when self-esteem can change that you can then see that as a value.
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Especially when others don't do that.
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And what they do is more methodical.
00:18:37.359 --> 00:18:37.920
Yes.
00:18:38.319 --> 00:18:40.319
Or not more methodical, I thought right.
00:18:41.279 --> 00:18:46.720
A more recognized method methodical in a more recognized way.
00:18:48.480 --> 00:18:58.720
And then we go back to those, we need those inventors, those, you know, those the wheel spinners, the the weavers, the the brains that do things that others haven't done.
00:18:59.119 --> 00:18:59.519
Yeah.
00:19:00.319 --> 00:19:01.599
My question to you.
00:19:02.319 --> 00:19:07.039
And I'm not gonna bring us down the road of talking about the orange man in power right now.
00:19:07.200 --> 00:19:11.839
But I'm gonna take us out of there for a second, because it doesn't live and die with him.
00:19:12.160 --> 00:19:13.519
Inclusion doesn't do that.
00:19:14.079 --> 00:19:15.279
But I have a question.
00:19:15.759 --> 00:19:18.880
Neurodiversity Pride was really big around the world.
00:19:19.200 --> 00:19:29.839
And I wanted to ask, given you are in the country with the largest economy in the world, was it big in America really, given?
00:19:30.400 --> 00:19:32.160
And if so, great, why?
00:19:32.400 --> 00:19:34.079
And if not, why?
00:19:35.759 --> 00:19:54.400
Neurodiversity Pride as the day and the event, I didn't see any visibility on it unless I went look, and I did proactively go looking for it because I knew it was that day, but I only knew it was that day because I'm connected to the people who who designed the day.
00:19:54.559 --> 00:20:02.640
And so it didn't come upon me like I think would be nice, you know, for it to be more in the consciousness of of the country.
00:20:02.799 --> 00:20:05.200
I didn't, I didn't sense that here.
00:20:05.599 --> 00:20:19.440
Um and and I don't know, and I and I don't know if the the bigger story is I also don't feel a sense of neurodiversity pride any day in this country.
00:20:19.599 --> 00:20:25.519
And I also don't see as much momentum in my neurodiversity work in this country as I do outside the country.
00:20:25.680 --> 00:20:33.119
Most all of my work is in Europe right now, and um, in terms of the organizations I'm working with uh for the most part.
00:20:33.359 --> 00:20:35.839
And so it's interesting to me.
00:20:36.000 --> 00:20:40.960
In fact, most of my clients, like the individuals and couples that I see, are in the states.
00:20:41.119 --> 00:20:49.759
And the reason why they need the mental health support is because they're challenged so much with the ableism at work and the lack of support.
00:20:50.000 --> 00:20:57.680
So my clients are increasing in the states, but the my work and awareness is actually increasing outside of the states.
00:20:57.759 --> 00:21:01.759
So it's not as supported on an organizational level.
00:21:02.720 --> 00:21:02.960
Okay.
00:21:03.599 --> 00:21:04.640
I'm gonna stay on you.
00:21:04.960 --> 00:21:05.599
Why?
00:21:06.000 --> 00:21:08.079
Why would that be?
00:21:08.720 --> 00:21:18.160
So my my guess is that my country, unfortunately, right now, is in a very uh fear-based place.
00:21:18.559 --> 00:21:36.960
Um, there's a lot of fear of what's gonna happen any given day that will impact our economy, our mental health, our safety every day because we have a reckless leader and government.
00:21:37.119 --> 00:21:38.880
And so there's that fear.
00:21:38.960 --> 00:21:44.000
There, what I'm hearing a lot is we're not gonna make any big moves from organizations.
00:21:44.079 --> 00:21:48.960
We're not gonna make any big moves now because it's very uncertain as to what the future will bring.
00:21:49.119 --> 00:21:59.759
Let's wait until November to see what the midterms bring, which will give us a little bit more sense of what the economy might be like, which might inform our budget to be able to bring out.
00:22:00.079 --> 00:22:01.200
Outside people in.
00:22:01.440 --> 00:22:26.480
Meanwhile, let's overwork the neurodivergent employees that we have who are willing to be advocates and let's in-house have them do all the presentations and ERD leads and workshops because we're going to just pull from the people with the lived experience, which is at least something, but I'm finding more often than not over a fear and a pause in general.
00:22:26.720 --> 00:22:30.559
In general, obviously there's a few that aren't like this.
00:22:31.440 --> 00:22:50.960
But just like with the kind of DEI backlash, I'm still seeing a lot of hesitancy for people to uh step into more work for organizations to be more inclusive and more equitable.
00:22:53.519 --> 00:23:11.359
Even to the extent that when I talk to organizations here, they'll say, we love the message, but we need you to do a workshop and not use any of these words, intersectionality, diversity, equity, inclusion, um, justice.
00:23:11.519 --> 00:23:13.680
Like, okay, but what do you want me to talk about in neurodiversity?
00:23:13.759 --> 00:23:15.039
This is gonna be really challenging.
00:23:15.200 --> 00:23:22.480
And so I say, okay, we could talk about it from the level of respect, like respecting all functioning styles, a needs base.
00:23:22.799 --> 00:23:28.000
So I so I have to accommodate quite a bit for that barrier.
00:23:28.319 --> 00:23:30.400
Yeah, okay, so let's stay on this.
00:23:30.480 --> 00:23:35.039
If I'm I'm hopefully not exhausting you, but I want to invite you to ask whatever you want.
00:23:35.119 --> 00:23:39.519
But I know, and it's really speaking to the cross the pond beyond, right?
00:23:39.920 --> 00:23:49.359
Because if we made it all about the big orange man, we would be understandable because that's where the power is right now.
00:23:50.480 --> 00:23:50.960
Alright.
00:23:51.119 --> 00:24:04.000
But in the UK, there is a stronger understanding on neurodiversity and poverty, not the way that I would like it, but certainly in a space where people are trying to understand it, and I get asked.
00:24:05.119 --> 00:24:18.960
And then I could be thinking much more about well, that poverty being an extension of what might be a school-to-prison pipeline, and how many people with ADHD, for example, are in prisons and unspeakable because of poverty and such and such.
00:24:19.279 --> 00:24:32.000
Now, that that's not the only reason someone's in prison, but it would be fair to say that prisons themselves are noticing this much more and choosing to lean into it more, regardless of who's in charge.
00:24:32.559 --> 00:24:44.960
Then you could say there's amazing work um being done in this field, you know, lots of great heroes that I I know I won't name properly, but but one that's close to my heart is uh Amanda Kirby, and she's a professor.
00:24:45.920 --> 00:24:53.440
Um but I might say, and Amanda Amanda will be a guest on the show, I'm sure, hopefully, uh in in heaven, I will ask that.
00:24:53.599 --> 00:24:59.279
But I think that Amanda will probably say, yes, prisoners are paying attention to yes, they are, but not the level they should be.
00:24:59.359 --> 00:25:01.440
And I think that's I would agree.
00:25:02.079 --> 00:25:23.519
And I might say But one thing is happening is we're seeing more neurodiversity specialists talking about the menopause and the specifics to women women have been historically, culturally, socially, economically deeply uh underrepresented in neurodiversity conversations and impact.
00:25:23.680 --> 00:25:25.599
And that's changing in the UK.
00:25:25.839 --> 00:25:33.359
More women's groups about neurodiversity and women specifically is changing.
00:25:33.599 --> 00:25:57.759
I'm gonna give a big shout out to Dear Friendly Brighton Jess Rad, who set up Neurocurious, which is about everybody, but in particular under uh a badge or allegiance to uh a concept of womenhood, you know, and how neurodiversity specifically impacts women and in part hormones and in part menopause and pre-menopause or post-menopause.
00:25:59.119 --> 00:26:06.240
I know I've said a lot there, but what I want to touching on is is America doing anything like that to your mind?
00:26:06.880 --> 00:26:08.400
And if not, why?
00:26:09.039 --> 00:26:13.200
Well, there's quite a bit of conversation about menopause.
00:26:13.279 --> 00:26:17.599
Um, this is the good news in in America, which is which is wonderful.
00:26:17.839 --> 00:26:30.000
Um I personally just did a uh keynote and a talk connecting neurodivergence and menopause, and I've never seen another talk here that connected the two.
00:26:30.160 --> 00:26:34.880
So I don't think that that connection um is very frequently talked about.
00:26:35.039 --> 00:26:48.720
Um certainly there's a lot of people talking about how ADHD in particular um as with hormonal changes and estrogen changes, it impacts uh ADHD and and other forms of neurodivergence.
00:26:48.880 --> 00:27:15.279
But um, but I personally, and I know we might disagree on this, if the in my opinion, the definition of neurodivergence is um is anyone whose functioning diverges from neuronormativity, society's idea of what is normal or ideal, um, which includes all the mental health challenges and includes a lot, a lot of um things way beyond autism, dyslexia, ADHD.
00:27:15.440 --> 00:27:17.119
But I believe it includes menopause.
00:27:17.359 --> 00:27:23.519
I believe it includes PMDD, uh, you know, which is a hormonal shift um during menstruation and a lot of challenges.
00:27:23.680 --> 00:27:33.119
But menopause, um, the the mind changes, not just for women, but non-binary and and trans uh people as well, experience menopause.
00:27:33.279 --> 00:27:54.400
Um and that that the impacts of our mind, but also body, but also the fact that we're marginalized similarly uh through ageism and ableism, um, and you could throw in sexism and a lot of other isms in there, um, make it a neurodivergence, a form of neurodivergence.
00:27:54.559 --> 00:27:59.359
So I consider menopause as under the neurodivergent umbrella.
00:27:59.519 --> 00:28:02.000
Um, and that I don't hear very often.
00:28:02.160 --> 00:28:10.240
And in fact, I I get a lot of challenge from it, but it's the same people who challenge me on bipolar being under or or traumatic brain injury.
00:28:10.319 --> 00:28:14.319
It's just it's just a more expansive, inclusive umbrella that I'm yeah.
00:28:14.400 --> 00:28:17.279
No, I I'm I'm I'm with you.
00:28:18.079 --> 00:28:19.519
Um I'm very with you.
00:28:19.759 --> 00:28:23.039
Um yeah, I know, I know I've said it before, I'm gonna say it again.
00:28:23.119 --> 00:28:28.799
That that I think human experience makes us all neurodiverse, but but we're not all marginalized because of it.
00:28:28.880 --> 00:28:30.720
And and and that's the work, right?
00:28:31.119 --> 00:28:31.519
Yeah.
00:28:31.759 --> 00:28:32.960
And to me, that's a difference.
00:28:33.119 --> 00:28:42.559
Like we're all as a human species neurodiverse, um, but neurodivergent speaks to the people who are marginalized.
00:28:43.119 --> 00:28:45.200
Yeah, I I I agree with you.
00:28:45.519 --> 00:28:51.680
My hesitation, and I think that's and it's delicious that we have that slight difference, but not much.
00:28:51.759 --> 00:28:56.799
In your in in some what I know of, and the joy I've had in getting to know you, it's not much of a difference.
00:28:56.960 --> 00:29:18.400
I suppose because I think as a person of colour, I'm already divergent from a lot of power modelling, with or without a diagnosis for something, or we've even without a need for a diagnosis, we're just divergent from power relationships, and I think that there's not a woman in the world that couldn't testify to that at some point as well.
00:29:18.720 --> 00:29:24.880
Um so I suppose my problem is probably I'm being a stickler, but I do struggle with the term neurodivergent.
00:29:25.279 --> 00:29:29.200
But what in the absence of a better word, I don't really have one right now.
00:29:29.599 --> 00:29:38.160
So, but what I do think is there are people whose way of learning and teaching have been welcomed, particularly in the 20th century.
00:29:38.960 --> 00:29:54.319
Uh, that may not have been welcomed before that, but they've particularly been welcomed in the 20th century, and I think the people's skills and different assets that were welcomed hundreds and hundreds of years ago and probably deeply, deeply needed uh are less welcomed now.
00:29:56.880 --> 00:29:58.240
Just as deeply needed.
00:29:58.720 --> 00:29:59.200
Yeah.
00:29:59.599 --> 00:30:13.519
Um, but I don't know if I would call that divergent because I like I said, the social structures and the super social structures make people of color divergent by the very nature of their colourless skin and how they access power in the world.
00:30:14.000 --> 00:30:19.759
And and whilst I can say that we are global majority voices by the virtue of our colour skin.
00:30:20.079 --> 00:30:24.559
Yeah, I think the majority of people are neurodivergent as well.
00:30:24.720 --> 00:30:28.720
Like, I don't think it's neurodivergent from a statistical norm or a bell curve.
00:30:28.799 --> 00:30:32.160
It's I think most people are neurodivergent for a variety of reasons.
00:30:32.319 --> 00:30:42.880
Some are intersectional, marginalized identities, and that very few people are neurotypical if they are even truly neurotypical, if they're not masked neurotypical.
00:30:43.039 --> 00:30:56.480
Um, and at any point, somebody will become neurodivergent, and most people do become neurodivergent as they as they age, uh, um, just like we all become disabled in some way.
00:30:56.640 --> 00:30:58.000
Uh yeah, yeah, absolutely.
00:30:58.079 --> 00:31:01.200
And it brings us back to the barriers that we face rather than labels.
00:31:01.279 --> 00:31:02.480
Yeah, no, absolutely.
00:31:02.640 --> 00:31:09.200
Um, so I want to ask this question then in the context, I'm again, I want to ask to really park Trump for a second.
00:31:09.599 --> 00:31:14.240
Because I still would say, how is this different under Biden or even Obama?
00:31:14.480 --> 00:31:14.960
Mm-hmm.
00:31:15.119 --> 00:31:15.599
Mm-hmm.
00:31:16.319 --> 00:31:27.519
Maybe I wouldn't like to go further than that because I'm not sure we'd get very far, particularly under Reagan issues.
00:31:28.160 --> 00:31:33.200
But I think you could look at Obama and say, well, there was a kind of hope for an egal.
00:31:33.519 --> 00:31:42.000
I'm maybe dressing this up, but at least for the U US internally, there was a kind of hope for an egalitarianism to happen in America.
00:31:42.240 --> 00:31:46.640
Maybe not with foreign policy, but certainly for US citizens.
00:31:50.319 --> 00:31:57.039
It wasn't like, hey, there's a major space around how people partake in autism or ADHD under the Obama time, right?
00:31:57.279 --> 00:31:57.519
No.
00:31:58.720 --> 00:32:02.880
And and and would it be fair to say there was a conversation about prison, to your knowledge?
00:32:02.960 --> 00:32:05.839
I mean, it might prison services and things like that.
00:32:06.400 --> 00:32:22.480
I did hear more about the school to prison pipeline during Obama years, but I think it's interesting to note that once you and in interesting, like with Biden, he was very much pro-um LGBTQIA rights.
00:32:22.720 --> 00:32:26.640
And and I think all these liberation movements are certainly connected.
00:32:26.880 --> 00:32:46.160
And so when you have leadership that's trying to reduce the barriers around racism or leadership that's trying to reduce the barriers around sexuality or gender identity, then you're also going to start to um organically unlike unravel and challenge the barriers around neurodiversity.
00:32:46.400 --> 00:33:06.000
And so I feel like I feel like right now that's why we're at a bit of a standstill, because we're not getting any uh progress in any liberation movement of any kind, you know, other than like this this white man in power with a lot of money.
00:33:06.160 --> 00:33:41.119
And so so I so I believe and hope that whoever's coming into power next, like like this is this is my dream, you know, like uh somebody like Pete Buddhej, who's a a brilliant uh thinker, uh gay man, married to a man, raising beautiful children, like has like an excellent uh way to really get to the root of it, saying, you know, not only do we need the diversity um of people and and thought and functioning styles, but like that that's that's what makes you know humanity beautiful and is our strength.
00:33:41.200 --> 00:33:47.839
And like anytime people challenge him about his sexuality, he turns it right back around to like just any difference, any difference.
00:33:48.079 --> 00:34:16.400
And um, I'm not quoting him at all ill eloquently, but um, but I think if we had a leader who's who's just like, it doesn't matter what label we're talking about, whether we're talking about somebody who's gay or autistic or or black or an immigrant or whatever, like we're talking about different, different people and honoring and respecting and not dehumanizing and stigmatizing and pathologizing anybody.
00:34:16.559 --> 00:34:33.679
Like just like, and so I I'm I'm not holding my breath, but that's that's you know, and I think people can still do that within the leadership that we have right now on a smaller scale, personally and individually, and in small groups and in small, you know, it's communities.
00:34:33.920 --> 00:34:43.760
But um, but I think it will be helpful when we have somebody in leadership who's consistently giving that message and challenging the yeah, for sure, for sure.
00:34:44.000 --> 00:34:52.960
I mean, I think what you've just said there is the nicest part of and most nicest part of neurodiversity pride I've I think I'm gonna hear this this month, right?
00:34:53.199 --> 00:35:03.440
Um, because what you're touching on is our and you know, and those of you who are new to the podcast, I'm just gonna say, but those of you who've heard it or following us because we talk about this.
00:35:03.760 --> 00:35:05.360
This is our collective liberation.
00:35:05.519 --> 00:35:05.840
Yeah.
00:35:06.000 --> 00:35:11.199
That you cannot be well if people of colour in your nation are not well and not safe, not welcomed.
00:35:11.440 --> 00:35:19.840
You cannot be well, and nor can your children be well if people who are gay are not welcomed or made to feel safe in the world that you share with them.
00:35:20.480 --> 00:35:35.519
I I truly think this is the evolution of this, and I truly think that a generation after us will be able to hold on to that, you know, in a stronger way, and perhaps in a way that we haven't really seen since the civil rights movements in the 60s.
00:35:36.960 --> 00:35:42.800
Um I do kind of like action and reaction being equal and opposite.
00:35:43.280 --> 00:35:44.079
I wish that was true.
00:35:44.239 --> 00:35:45.840
It's Newton's fourth law.
00:35:46.639 --> 00:35:48.719
Action and reaction are equal and opposite.
00:35:49.840 --> 00:35:53.440
They're actually not though, are they, in terms of social outcries.
00:35:53.840 --> 00:35:57.360
Some social outcries can change a president's mind.
00:35:57.760 --> 00:35:59.280
Yeah, and some won't.
00:35:59.679 --> 00:36:00.239
Yeah.
00:36:01.199 --> 00:36:03.840
And some can be so egregious that lives are lost.
00:36:04.000 --> 00:36:04.079
Yeah.
00:36:04.320 --> 00:36:06.400
And despite the number of lives lost.
00:36:06.639 --> 00:36:06.960
Yeah.
00:36:07.440 --> 00:36:09.039
It still doesn't move a president.
00:36:09.199 --> 00:36:11.039
I I'm not talking about this specific one.
00:36:11.119 --> 00:36:11.360
I know.
00:36:12.400 --> 00:36:13.119
In in general.
00:36:13.599 --> 00:36:14.239
Yeah.
00:36:14.960 --> 00:36:21.599
And I look at America and I think you it has one of its economies, one of its largest manufacturing economies, is those prisons themselves.
00:36:21.840 --> 00:36:25.119
They are a punitive sentence of a kind.
00:36:25.199 --> 00:36:26.880
I don't I hope I'm saying that right.
00:36:27.199 --> 00:36:31.760
But it's actually an extended form of slave economy.
00:36:32.159 --> 00:36:32.400
Yeah.
00:36:33.199 --> 00:36:39.840
And now with the detention centers beyond prisons, specifically detention centers for uh for immigrants.
00:36:40.000 --> 00:37:04.320
And also, I'm hearing currently um a push to institutionalize uh disabled people, uh, specifically intellectually, developmentally disabled people, and and taking rights away from families and schools and communities that would that would typically be able to, you know, provide resources.
00:37:04.480 --> 00:37:18.400
Like so people are quite scared right now about, and that's going back to like many, many decades ago, but but also eugenics, um, you know, and in in just like who's worthy of freedom.
00:37:18.719 --> 00:37:19.679
Yeah, yeah.
00:37:20.559 --> 00:37:22.079
Yeah, this is true, all right.
00:37:22.159 --> 00:37:28.639
And this is exactly um, you know, uh I think the uh mention I wasn't gonna say his name.
00:37:28.960 --> 00:37:34.480
The only thing the only honest thing he did or say was that I'm gonna come for EDI, and he did, right?
00:37:34.639 --> 00:37:34.719
Yeah.
00:37:39.360 --> 00:37:45.679
Um, but I do think that says more about us, where we were at, and we're willing to fold in three months.
00:37:45.840 --> 00:37:49.039
And I know that's not all of us, I know a lot of companies said no, we're gonna.
00:37:49.199 --> 00:37:53.280
I've just come back from speaking in Barcelona for the Working Futures Conference, and it was great.
00:37:53.440 --> 00:37:57.039
Um and I was deliciously reminding my audience is Europeans.
00:37:57.119 --> 00:38:10.159
We talked a little bit about the big man in the White House, but what what I loved, and I was very conscious suddenly and awakened to it, that I'm not speaking to an English audience.
00:38:10.239 --> 00:38:17.519
Uh you know, I was speaking to an international audience and they're Europeans, and they said, and a French guy said, Oh, yeah, but we are Europeans.
00:38:17.679 --> 00:38:24.159
Now it's really nice to hear that because English people can after Brexit, particularly, it it doesn't do that well.
00:38:24.320 --> 00:38:25.440
We should, but we don't.
00:38:25.519 --> 00:38:28.960
And hearing a French man, he didn't say, Um, well, yeah, but we're French, we don't care about Trump.
00:38:29.199 --> 00:38:36.800
He said, No, but we are Europeans, you know, and as Europeans, we think as a community, to you know, of what inclusion looks like, what fairness looks like.
00:38:37.280 --> 00:38:39.039
And I was just like, wow, this is just nice.
00:38:39.119 --> 00:38:40.079
I love the vigour.
00:38:40.480 --> 00:38:44.000
I loved not having to tiptoe around the conversation.
00:38:44.559 --> 00:38:54.480
And I could show his picture and say, look, either he sets the pace of the world and the world says that's okay, or the world says no.
00:38:55.840 --> 00:39:02.719
And and but I also look at Europeans and think, well, I'm in Brighton, I know that's geography-wise, it's on the coast.
00:39:03.679 --> 00:39:07.920
I'm closer, just 20 miles across that water, and I hit France.
00:39:09.280 --> 00:39:11.679
I hit London than 60 miles.
00:39:12.000 --> 00:39:17.039
I promise you, we have a better Equality Act in the UK than anything in France.
00:39:17.360 --> 00:39:26.559
We have a better inclusion and fairness for marginalized people, be they gay, disabled, elderly, queer, born diverse or divergent.
00:39:27.599 --> 00:39:28.719
Yeah, better.
00:39:29.440 --> 00:39:33.199
And I'm not trying to say this because I want to ride France down.
00:39:33.599 --> 00:39:46.239
I'm saying because if I look at the ADA, I'd even American discrimination uh discrimination I'd still say that's better than a lot what Europe has, be it holding on to itself by Freds.
00:39:46.719 --> 00:39:47.119
Mm-hmm.
00:39:47.280 --> 00:39:49.920
Yeah, yeah, from an accessibility standpoint for sure.
00:39:50.159 --> 00:39:54.079
France is kind of known, unfortunately, for being inaccessible for the disabled people.
00:39:54.239 --> 00:39:54.800
Yeah, yeah.
00:39:55.039 --> 00:40:07.599
Yeah, and and and this was the rest of the audience was not just French, but it was, you know, uh a group of good committed people, but they were from countries that have a historical track record and not being so great on it.
00:40:07.760 --> 00:40:08.079
Yeah.
00:40:08.239 --> 00:40:11.440
But also a track record of saying we want to.
00:40:11.599 --> 00:40:11.840
Good.
00:40:12.079 --> 00:40:13.199
We want to move forward.
00:40:13.360 --> 00:40:13.519
Good.
00:40:13.679 --> 00:40:18.239
Whereas okay, you're saying, no, we want to take back what we what we did.
00:40:18.639 --> 00:40:21.599
And the UK has gone, hmm, I never know which way to go.
00:40:23.840 --> 00:40:25.039
That that does my heading.
00:40:25.199 --> 00:40:27.679
The UK is just like when you make your mind up, make a stand.
00:40:27.920 --> 00:40:28.400
Yeah.
00:40:30.239 --> 00:40:31.519
Yeah, yeah.
00:40:31.760 --> 00:40:41.920
I I've never felt as uh included or s or safe um in from public transportation to the buildings to theaters.
00:40:42.079 --> 00:40:57.199
It was the it's the only place I can wear the sunflower lanyard um showing non-apparent or invisible disabilities, however you say it, um, that it was immediately recognized by anyone and honored with deep compassion.
00:40:57.440 --> 00:40:58.800
I was so impressed.
00:40:59.679 --> 00:41:00.239
In Europe.
00:41:00.480 --> 00:41:01.440
In in the UK.
00:41:01.920 --> 00:41:02.480
Oh, okay.
00:41:02.559 --> 00:41:03.039
All right, right.
00:41:03.360 --> 00:41:04.320
Not anywhere else.
00:41:04.559 --> 00:41:10.880
Not anywhere else, not in any of the other European countries that uh that I had visited or places beyond.
00:41:11.119 --> 00:41:12.880
It's it's only been in the UK UK.
00:41:13.440 --> 00:41:16.559
Oh wow, yeah, I do recommend wearing if you're going on a plane.
00:41:16.639 --> 00:41:18.639
You can you can it helps, it helps.
00:41:18.719 --> 00:41:20.880
Yeah, yeah, we can spend all time with things, yeah.
00:41:21.119 --> 00:41:23.199
Um okay, all right.
00:41:23.280 --> 00:41:38.320
So we're coming to the end of this, and I guess I want to just give uh space for any questions you've got to ask, and if you have any burning ones, but but I I'm I'm really enjoying today's one because we're in a kind of a an interesting space.
00:41:38.480 --> 00:41:43.920
The World Cup is going on, you know, things in America bring that into a space.
00:41:44.639 --> 00:41:53.280
Um we're watching things happening about a you know, a lake being an international incident, which makes no sense to me.
00:41:53.440 --> 00:41:54.719
Um what is that?
00:41:54.800 --> 00:41:55.920
Say the last part again?
00:41:56.239 --> 00:41:58.639
Um, you know, the lake, the the the reflecting pool.
00:41:58.880 --> 00:41:59.920
Oh, the pool, yes.
00:42:00.239 --> 00:42:03.119
Yeah, and so I'm thinking, why is this making so much attention?
00:42:03.199 --> 00:42:05.679
But I I that's not something I understand.
00:42:05.920 --> 00:42:14.159
Um the the uh world wrestling happening in the White House, that's slightly funny, do you know?
00:42:14.800 --> 00:42:17.039
It's fairly humorous and disgusting, yeah.
00:42:17.360 --> 00:42:24.559
But then I'm thinking a year ago, you guys really trashed into Zelensky for not wearing a suit as if he were bringing bad decorum to the White House.
00:42:24.719 --> 00:42:26.719
Right here are having wrestling matches.
00:42:26.880 --> 00:42:34.800
So it's kind of all these sort of comical things that we're seeing, but the heart of it is still people trying to make their way safely through this work.
00:42:35.440 --> 00:42:49.280
So I guess if I could ask you one question is if we looked at neurodiversity pride this time next year in America a year from now, and it was awesome, that really good?
00:42:51.840 --> 00:42:52.239
Why?
00:42:52.400 --> 00:42:53.280
What did we do?
00:42:53.360 --> 00:42:57.440
I mean, not just you and me, but what did America do to make it awesome this time?
00:42:58.559 --> 00:43:01.840
What do you think that they did or would have done?
00:43:02.400 --> 00:43:04.960
Yeah, it's gonna it would be hard to do it within a year.
00:43:05.119 --> 00:43:08.880
Um, because I think there is the awareness.
00:43:09.360 --> 00:43:20.880
Um, I don't think yet that we're in a play, and there's a there's a little bit of like we've gone from awareness to affirming somewhat, affirming some forms of neurodivergence, but not all.
00:43:21.039 --> 00:43:27.840
And then there's this responsiveness that we're very, very far from, you know, and and action very, very far from.
00:43:27.920 --> 00:43:29.599
There's a lot of performative efforts.
00:43:29.760 --> 00:43:58.559
And so, you know, in a year, I guess what I would hope realistically is that some organizations with a lot of visibility and and power and influence would be not just awareness and affirming, but really, really responsive and and um proactive and um and strong in their uh advocating.
00:43:58.800 --> 00:44:04.400
And um and And pride, but but more so I want systemic change, you know.
00:44:04.480 --> 00:44:12.559
Like I think pride is great, but then if we have like pride and you know gay rights and gay marriages taken away, like that's that's not helpful.
00:44:12.639 --> 00:44:13.199
You know what I mean?
00:44:13.280 --> 00:44:17.119
Like I I want I want pride and action, neurodiversity and beyond.
00:44:17.360 --> 00:44:29.119
And so um yeah, I think it would I think it would look like policy change and and uh you know strategic change and systemic change.
00:44:29.760 --> 00:44:30.079
Good.
00:44:30.239 --> 00:44:40.960
Well, look, here's hoping, I think, for for for for so many ways, because whatever happens in your country, you do set the pace to an Well, I don't know.
00:44:41.039 --> 00:44:45.440
It sounds like the UK might need to set the pace on this one, like maybe Yeah, yeah.
00:44:45.599 --> 00:44:56.559
Like I said, I think the UK is is needs an awful lot of work to understand the barriers that really affect the lives of our neurodiversity folks and our disabled folks.
00:44:56.719 --> 00:45:04.000
And I think we have to do so much more in the UK to understand what is a disabling situation rather than who's got a disability.
00:45:04.400 --> 00:45:04.719
Yeah.
00:45:04.960 --> 00:45:15.679
Um and I think we're not even close to honouring what's enshrined in our own equalities act, even though that equality act came out in you know 2010.
00:45:16.960 --> 00:45:20.159
We're not even close to recognize what that actu actually means.
00:45:20.800 --> 00:45:27.519
But I also think, and I don't want us to compare good enough with bad practice.
00:45:27.760 --> 00:45:28.800
Right, right, right, right.
00:45:29.920 --> 00:45:34.719
I want to compare great, yeah, because great is deserved, yeah.
00:45:35.440 --> 00:45:45.519
Um, and so I think I'm just gonna finish this that great is deserved, whether it's in US or UK or Cameroon or Sudan or Ghana or anywhere, right?
00:45:45.920 --> 00:45:59.920
I think in a lot of the world, LGBTQIA plus pride has come a long way in beyond awareness and beyond affirmation and to a lot of really great systemic change.
00:46:00.320 --> 00:46:11.119
And I think that that's a wonderful model to follow as we look at neurodiversity pride or mad pride or disability pride, um, all the other movements.
00:46:11.679 --> 00:46:12.719
Yeah, yeah.
00:46:12.880 --> 00:46:13.599
All right, good.
00:46:13.760 --> 00:46:15.599
Well, look, we're gonna finish here, I think.
00:46:15.760 --> 00:46:23.760
And I'm gonna ask those watching is please reach out to us and tell us about anybody that you think should be a guest on this show.
00:46:23.920 --> 00:46:24.960
We're really interested.
00:46:25.280 --> 00:46:27.760
This is series, this is episode seven.
00:46:27.840 --> 00:46:35.199
Uh, and I promise Passion I that by the time we get to episode 10, what we're gonna start doing is having guests on this show.
00:46:35.360 --> 00:46:45.679
Um, we really want to hear from you folks if you think that somebody whose work particularly would challenge, I guess, some of the conversations that Pasha and I have, that would be great.
00:46:45.840 --> 00:46:53.679
And by challenge, I mean people who may be more traditionally into uh diagnostics or pathology models.
00:46:53.920 --> 00:47:01.360
But I suspect anyone really into that will probably be balanced to understand the joy of what Pasha brings to this and me about barriers.
00:47:01.599 --> 00:47:02.480
But I don't know.
00:47:02.719 --> 00:47:04.559
We want to throw this to you guys.
00:47:04.800 --> 00:47:10.639
We want to ask people: can we get a heads around that poverty changes how we understand neurodiversity?
00:47:10.800 --> 00:47:15.599
That hormones may change the way women get to share neurodiversity.
00:47:15.920 --> 00:47:18.159
Um, does that apply to men too?
00:47:18.239 --> 00:47:18.960
I I I don't know.
00:47:19.039 --> 00:47:20.079
I want to throw this out there.
00:47:20.320 --> 00:47:26.880
One thing I do know is that the Eurocentric modeling of neurodiversity cannot stay forever.
00:47:27.199 --> 00:47:48.639
I think it's not relevant, and I think that it is potentially, and I say this with love, if I can, if that's not a contradiction, but I I say this that it is at times reinforcing white supremacy because it's close to being curious about what neurodiversity looks like in other worlds or other places in the planet.
00:47:49.039 --> 00:47:56.400
It it mostly looks at how they should assimilate European models or Eurocentric ones and how they're supposed to assimilate it better.
00:47:56.639 --> 00:48:02.239
So that's going to change, and I suspect that we'll just have to, and I'm looking forward to that.
00:48:02.320 --> 00:48:08.000
I may not be around to really see the best of that, but I do think I'm playing a part in making it happen already.
00:48:08.239 --> 00:48:16.000
Um and so I just invite you all to join us in this conversation, this invitation, and tell us look, what would you like us to talk about?
00:48:16.159 --> 00:48:18.719
What guests would you really insist on us having?
00:48:18.800 --> 00:48:23.599
And what does Neurodiversity Pride 2030 look like for you?
00:48:25.440 --> 00:48:26.639
Good questions.
00:48:26.800 --> 00:48:29.599
I hope we get lots of uh feedback on that.
00:48:29.679 --> 00:48:37.039
And I I love that idea of uh bringing in guests that would challenge that would challenge us, not just mirror what we're saying.
00:48:37.280 --> 00:48:43.039
And the and guests beyond, you know, the UK and the United States and Europe.
00:48:43.199 --> 00:48:45.760
Uh it would be especially impactful.
00:48:46.719 --> 00:48:47.280
Brilliant.
00:48:47.440 --> 00:48:52.159
Okay, well, look, um, this is it for me, at least I think in my head and heart.
00:48:52.239 --> 00:48:54.239
Um Pasha, I suppose might be messed up.
00:48:54.639 --> 00:48:54.800
Yes.
00:48:55.360 --> 00:48:56.719
We're good, we're complete.
00:48:57.039 --> 00:48:57.599
Yeah.
00:48:57.920 --> 00:48:58.320
Great.
00:48:58.880 --> 00:49:01.039
Well done, folks, and thank you for joining us.
00:49:01.119 --> 00:49:05.440
And as ever, saying Tash, please reach out, please just shout what you need from us.
00:49:06.079 --> 00:49:07.679
Thank you, everybody, for joining us.
00:49:07.840 --> 00:49:08.719
See you soon.
00:00:02.720 --> 00:00:03.919
Hello, everybody.
00:00:04.080 --> 00:00:11.119
Welcome back to the Neuro Inclusion Conversations from the Pond and across the pond and beyond.
00:00:12.000 --> 00:00:13.039
Our own podcast.
00:00:13.199 --> 00:00:13.439
Yes.
00:00:13.599 --> 00:00:14.160
And I'm here.
00:00:14.240 --> 00:00:17.280
I'm Pasha Marlowe here with Atif Chattery.
00:00:17.440 --> 00:00:18.399
Hello, Atif.
00:00:18.879 --> 00:00:19.679
Hi, Tasha.
00:00:19.920 --> 00:00:20.320
How are you?
00:00:20.480 --> 00:00:22.000
Hi, everybody listening.
00:00:22.320 --> 00:00:24.160
Um, it is hot here.
00:00:24.399 --> 00:00:25.199
UK is hot.
00:00:25.280 --> 00:00:29.839
I know I'm talking to an American audience, and I know you get real climate weather.
00:00:29.920 --> 00:00:31.199
When it's summer, it's summer.
00:00:31.359 --> 00:00:33.200
When it's winter, it's winter.
00:00:33.600 --> 00:00:35.359
But wow, it is hot here.
00:00:35.439 --> 00:00:36.880
We've hit 92.
00:00:37.280 --> 00:00:38.399
Yeah, that is hot.
00:00:38.560 --> 00:00:39.039
That is hot.
00:00:39.119 --> 00:00:45.840
And especially hot because, like you said, you don't have uh AC there in as many of the homes and buildings.
00:00:45.920 --> 00:00:48.640
So I can imagine it's quite uncomfortable.
00:00:49.359 --> 00:00:50.320
Yeah, yeah.
00:00:50.560 --> 00:00:53.439
It's it's it's turning into a spikely film here.
00:00:54.880 --> 00:00:56.159
I suspect it might do.
00:00:56.240 --> 00:00:56.960
I'm not sure.
00:00:57.119 --> 00:00:59.759
But the schools are out today and tomorrow.
00:01:00.079 --> 00:01:00.399
Yeah.
00:01:02.000 --> 00:01:11.760
And you know, I could sort of spend a little bit of time thinking about neurodiversity and how we cope with change, particularly climate change and weather changes or even uh hormones.
00:01:12.000 --> 00:01:13.280
But I'm not sure I will.
00:01:13.519 --> 00:01:17.920
But I I think I could think about that a lot, but I'm not sure I will, at least for now.
00:01:18.079 --> 00:01:33.760
Um, I would just sort of say is that it's wonderful to have good hot weather when you need it and want it, but it's interesting what it brings out in people when it's too something, it's too cold for this or it's yes, you know, and and it's not it's of course we will never have a perfect suit spot, you know?
00:01:34.400 --> 00:01:35.439
At least I don't think so.
00:01:35.680 --> 00:01:45.760
Yeah, and people with sensitive nervous systems are likely going to be more impacted by too hot, too cold, too noisy, whatever it is, too crowded.
00:01:45.920 --> 00:01:53.680
And so um, yeah, I know here it's pride, it's pride month for most of the country who celebrates.
00:01:53.920 --> 00:02:09.520
And uh, and even though I love Pride and identify as queer, I don't even go to the Pride events, not only because it's hot out, but because it's crowded and it's loud and I don't love parades.
00:02:10.000 --> 00:02:13.280
And so it's just interesting, but I know that's my nervous system.
00:02:13.360 --> 00:02:19.120
And I used to force myself to go because it seemed like the right thing to do, but then I never felt good.
00:02:19.199 --> 00:02:34.560
It didn't energize me, it didn't, it didn't feel safe, and so I just think it's interesting, you know, to when we honor our nervous systems in different environments and and also recognize that you know the heat might be more challenging for you than somebody else.
00:02:34.800 --> 00:02:35.199
Yeah, yeah.
00:02:35.520 --> 00:02:38.719
Okay, but it's a provocation to the audience, yeah.
00:02:39.280 --> 00:02:40.159
I like this.
00:02:40.800 --> 00:02:45.520
If I honored my nervous system all the time, I don't think I'd get out of bed.
00:02:47.039 --> 00:02:49.439
You know, you would just stay in bed.
00:02:49.759 --> 00:03:04.000
Yeah, well, I'm not sure you know, a teeth would exist, really, you know, because by nature I am an introvert, and yet, you know, the world doesn't necessarily know that or even would probably accept not accept that.
00:03:04.159 --> 00:03:09.759
It may even really challenge me that and whatever I might have said there, that may have been a guy a long time ago.
00:03:10.000 --> 00:03:10.960
I don't really know.
00:03:11.199 --> 00:03:17.919
I just know that my happy spot isn't going to a party that was in the diary for a long time.
00:03:18.319 --> 00:03:23.599
But my happy spot is suddenly a party coming around me when I'm not expecting it.
00:03:24.639 --> 00:03:24.879
Yeah.
00:03:26.080 --> 00:03:27.680
So I don't know how to explain that.
00:03:27.759 --> 00:03:33.439
But other than if I know something is gonna be planned in advance, then it feels like an obligation.
00:03:33.840 --> 00:03:37.199
And my nervous system says, Hey man, what gives?
00:03:37.360 --> 00:03:38.240
Are you ready for this?
00:03:38.400 --> 00:03:39.360
No, not really.
00:03:39.520 --> 00:03:40.319
Are you dressing up?
00:03:40.479 --> 00:03:42.319
Oh no, are you gonna no?
00:03:43.280 --> 00:03:46.560
Whereas if it's just suddenly happening, then I'm super happy.
00:03:46.800 --> 00:03:50.000
Yeah, the spontaneity of it is good for you.
00:03:50.319 --> 00:03:52.240
I am the other way.
00:03:52.400 --> 00:03:59.280
I like to know ahead of time where I'm going, how to manage my energy before, during, and after.
00:03:59.439 --> 00:04:04.719
Uh, I like preparing what I'm gonna wear and uh what I'm gonna eat.
00:04:04.800 --> 00:04:08.479
And yeah, so just different, different, different nervous systems.
00:04:09.919 --> 00:04:13.520
We haven't talked much about this, but I really would like to do two things today.
00:04:13.680 --> 00:04:21.839
One is acknowledge neurodiversity pride for all of us around the world and recognize what an amazing thing happened, you know, in so many countries around the world.
00:04:22.879 --> 00:04:36.800
And I want to touch on that a little bit, but I also want to ask you personally, like I'm fascinated by the idea as a guy who I know I'm dyslexic in a Western diagnosis, I know I'm ADHD in the in all of the things that come with that.
00:04:37.519 --> 00:04:43.279
I also know or believe that not everybody with ADHD has dyslexia.
00:04:43.920 --> 00:04:53.439
But I do believe the nature of dyslexia or the impact of it in a life leaves everyone with dyslexia with ADHD.
00:04:53.920 --> 00:04:54.240
You know?
00:04:54.560 --> 00:04:57.040
So what they might use is comorbidity.
00:04:59.120 --> 00:05:01.199
So learning isolation, let's just use that word.
00:05:01.920 --> 00:05:03.680
And I'll get to my point around this.
00:05:04.000 --> 00:05:14.560
The learning isolation of being a kid in a world that expects you to read and write and absorb information and articulate it in written form because everyone is doing it.
00:05:15.120 --> 00:05:17.360
Even though it's a 20th century phenomenon.
00:05:20.319 --> 00:05:21.759
And I really challenge folks.
00:05:21.920 --> 00:05:26.399
I know you you will say, oh no, no, there are people who have been reading and writing for 300, 400 years.
00:05:26.560 --> 00:05:27.519
Well, I'll say no.
00:05:27.680 --> 00:05:32.399
A certain class of people have been reading and writing for 300 years, what 400 years.
00:05:32.720 --> 00:05:34.000
But this is not everybody.
00:05:34.480 --> 00:05:37.360
And so for everyone to do it, it's a 20th century phenomenon.
00:05:39.040 --> 00:05:45.120
The impact of a child life to say working memory and literacy skills is how I get to count in this life.
00:05:46.720 --> 00:05:54.319
It's a lonely place when that's not your those two things, working memory and literacy skills, they're not in your armory yet, you know.
00:05:54.480 --> 00:06:00.000
Yeah, and you could find yourself thinking, well, if they're not in my armory, then maybe nothing is.
00:06:00.319 --> 00:06:00.560
Yes.
00:06:00.800 --> 00:06:03.920
And then the whole world says, no, kid, tons of things are.
00:06:04.000 --> 00:06:04.959
Look at this, look at that.
00:06:05.120 --> 00:06:06.639
If you're lucky, if you're lucky.
00:06:06.879 --> 00:06:13.439
Yes, yes, yes, we so much value the the ability people have to read or write in schools.
00:06:13.680 --> 00:06:21.279
It seems like almost all the other classes and experiences are devalued in comparison.
00:06:21.519 --> 00:06:34.319
And so uh for for me, I was I really leaned into the art and the theater, and I struggled with math uh through dysgraphia, still do.
00:06:34.480 --> 00:06:38.399
Uh numbers, numbers are like a foreign language to me still.
00:06:38.639 --> 00:06:43.360
And um, and math was the most important, not just in my school, but to my family.
00:06:43.519 --> 00:06:46.879
And if you were not good at math, you were not intelligent.
00:06:47.040 --> 00:06:53.439
And there was never a sense of multiple intelligences or different ways of being intelligent.
00:06:53.759 --> 00:07:07.279
And when I married my um current husband, my my final husband, hopefully, um uh he studied multiple intelligences, and that's how he teaches.
00:07:07.439 --> 00:07:21.199
So if a child struggles with, let's say, reading, um, but is really, you know, spatially intelligent or emotionally intelligent or kinesthetically intelligent, he makes sure to phrase it as such so that they know there are many ways to be intelligent.
00:07:21.439 --> 00:07:35.040
Unfortunately, society just value certain societies value some more than others, but that doesn't mean that a that a child is not uh smart or capable of of learning or success.
00:07:35.199 --> 00:07:40.800
Uh, but it takes it takes a teacher or a parent or some influence to to tell us that.
00:07:40.959 --> 00:07:42.560
That was not the message I received.
00:07:43.120 --> 00:07:49.519
Yeah, well, we measured children through productivity long, long, long before they're ready to go into workplace.
00:07:49.680 --> 00:07:50.000
You know?
00:07:50.399 --> 00:07:53.680
We measure children through what they bring to a society.
00:07:53.920 --> 00:07:54.399
Mm-hmm.
00:07:55.040 --> 00:07:59.519
And functional way long before we even talk to them about a workplace.
00:07:59.759 --> 00:08:05.040
Um but no, so the reason I'm bringing this up is because yes, it's neurodiversity pride.
00:08:05.360 --> 00:08:11.279
So we should take pride in those moments and and those realities, the the way we learn.
00:08:11.920 --> 00:08:16.000
I want to say again what amazing thing to have happened around the world.
00:08:16.319 --> 00:08:18.480
Um, but I've got a couple questions.
00:08:19.439 --> 00:08:28.079
One is for you personally, because I am interested in comorbidity, and it's a really rubbish word, so overlapping impacts, conditions, barriers, call it what we want.
00:08:28.319 --> 00:08:30.480
You know, it's just coexisting.
00:08:30.639 --> 00:08:32.240
Sometimes I'll say coexisting.
00:08:32.639 --> 00:08:42.559
Yeah, so there's a whole bunch of cover, but like I said, let's stay on the spontaneity thing, because you've shared that you have ADHD and autism.
00:08:44.320 --> 00:08:50.240
To me, there's a wonderful contradiction in those spaces, but I don't know how it works for you.
00:08:50.399 --> 00:08:53.840
And I wondered if you would share something about that.
00:08:54.799 --> 00:08:57.120
Yeah, I and I think I might have shared this in the past.
00:08:57.200 --> 00:09:07.360
Like to me, it's that they're almost constantly in battle with each other, and and it really depends on which one is in the driver's seat on any particular day.
00:09:07.600 --> 00:09:16.559
Um, because when you said if you honored your nervous system, you would just stay in bed all day uh when my ADHD is in the driver's seat.
00:09:16.639 --> 00:09:17.919
That's more how I feel.
00:09:18.080 --> 00:09:22.159
Like, uh, just like I'm not gonna do anything well anyhow.
00:09:22.320 --> 00:09:23.519
It's gonna be overwhelming.
00:09:23.679 --> 00:09:26.000
It's like I should, I, I need rest.
00:09:26.320 --> 00:09:31.600
I um, you know, I I don't feel like work is easeful.
00:09:31.919 --> 00:09:34.720
I might, I might just get down that rabbit hole.
00:09:34.879 --> 00:09:46.000
But um, but autism is so funny because I actually over, I overwork, I overperform, I overextend more often than not.
00:09:46.159 --> 00:09:52.159
And so I would not allow myself to be in bed unless I was very, very sick.
00:09:52.320 --> 00:09:54.320
Um, this is not at all, this is not good.
00:09:54.399 --> 00:09:55.200
This is not healthy.
00:09:55.360 --> 00:09:56.159
I'm just letting you know.
00:09:56.240 --> 00:09:58.639
Like I will get up at 5 a.m.
00:09:59.039 --> 00:10:02.720
and work all day until 10 p.m.
00:10:02.879 --> 00:10:07.120
And very often my husband will walk in the room and he'll say, Why are you sitting in the dark?
00:10:07.279 --> 00:10:09.440
And I'll say, I didn't even know it was dark in the room.
00:10:09.600 --> 00:10:18.480
I'm just on my computer, which means for five hours as the sun was setting, I wasn't even aware of my surroundings because I was so consumed in my work.
00:10:18.639 --> 00:10:22.639
So that's for me how they're very different.
00:10:22.799 --> 00:10:30.480
And typically autism is in the driver's seat, unless rejection sensitivity is in the room and then all my ADHD comes back.
00:10:32.320 --> 00:10:34.240
Wow, yeah, it's interesting.
00:10:34.480 --> 00:10:45.279
I now understand how you listen to me speak at two in the morning at your time when I was speaking in Dubai, that you were literally awake because you would have to wake up.
00:10:46.720 --> 00:10:47.360
Yeah.
00:10:47.919 --> 00:10:51.279
So I was like, wow, she's keen.
00:10:51.440 --> 00:10:53.279
She's really tuning in for this.
00:10:53.840 --> 00:10:57.279
Um, so all right, so let's let's take that on.
00:10:57.360 --> 00:10:58.639
Because I I don't have autism.
00:10:58.799 --> 00:11:11.759
I don't as a practitioner and a teacher and uh in the field of neurodiversity, I've always looked at autism and ADHD and thought, hmm, that must be quite a thing, you know?
00:11:12.320 --> 00:11:15.840
And as far as I know, I don't have autism, as far as I know, right?
00:11:16.080 --> 00:11:22.559
Um but I do know that I do not switch on until the afternoon.
00:11:24.159 --> 00:11:28.960
I don't and if I was to just then what go to bed till the afternoon, it's not gonna change anything, do you know?
00:11:29.120 --> 00:11:36.080
So uh I'm at my peak usually at this sort of time, which is now you know, quarter to seven in in the evening, you know.
00:11:36.240 --> 00:11:36.480
Yeah.
00:11:37.039 --> 00:11:40.159
My system is uh all guns firing right now.
00:11:41.120 --> 00:11:44.320
If you spoke to my colleagues and said, you know, how is it nine?
00:11:45.360 --> 00:11:46.879
Nine in the morning, yeah.
00:11:47.120 --> 00:11:50.320
So you should book Hati for keynotes at 7 p.m.
00:11:50.639 --> 00:11:51.600
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:11:51.679 --> 00:11:56.320
Because like at nine, seriously, I don't really talk much, not till 11, 12.
00:11:56.559 --> 00:11:56.879
Yeah.
00:11:57.039 --> 00:12:06.480
Um, well it's good listening, but also the brain is not, I can't recall things very well, names of things, people things, yeah.
00:12:06.799 --> 00:12:24.559
Yeah, well, to me, this speaks to you know capitalism and workplace expectations and honoring different uh energy levels and and you know, the cycles of energy that we're all on differently, and like the nine to five just isn't suitable for most people.
00:12:24.720 --> 00:12:39.919
And if you're in the workplace and hopefully you're in a more flexible schedule, if not an entrepreneur, you know, and and doing more project-based work so that you're not, you know, kind of forcing your nervous system to do something that that isn't in service to you.
00:12:41.120 --> 00:12:41.600
Absolutely.
00:12:41.679 --> 00:12:44.000
So this is a goes back to the point, right?
00:12:44.159 --> 00:12:52.559
That so much of our neurodiverse barriers and realities come do not come because we are autistic or ADHD or dyslexic.
00:12:52.960 --> 00:13:02.559
And yes, I know we're gonna spend a long time, and there's an industry on this about such things being okay and normal and part of our world, which is true.
00:13:02.879 --> 00:13:09.679
And that human condition is one of variety and differences and and and overlapping realities.
00:13:09.919 --> 00:13:21.039
But I think we don't spend enough time talking about, and I have touched on it before, so I'm not gonna elaborate too much on this course, that you know, and I've said in the UK and a mass disabling event happened.
00:13:21.360 --> 00:13:23.120
It was called the Industrial Revolution.
00:13:23.440 --> 00:13:23.840
Yes.
00:13:24.399 --> 00:13:30.799
And it wasn't just that we built factories, it was the entire change and makeup of the country.
00:13:30.960 --> 00:13:31.279
Yes.
00:13:31.519 --> 00:13:35.120
And uh death of communities, the death I mean, I think that J.R.
00:13:35.279 --> 00:13:39.600
Tolkien in a sense wrote Lord of Rings about that, you know, to a certain extent.
00:13:39.759 --> 00:13:46.240
That that we mobilized and people's sense of worth was based on how productive they were.
00:13:46.480 --> 00:13:52.080
Yeah, still Oh, and at the same time a light bulb was created, and it didn't just give light.
00:13:52.480 --> 00:13:57.279
It changed it was made by a diabetic, deaf, dyslexic man.
00:13:57.679 --> 00:14:01.519
You know, arguably Thomas Edison was not fun to be around.
00:14:01.679 --> 00:14:10.159
But but from his writing and his inventions and the way he worked, it does seem like a very dyslexic mindset.
00:14:10.559 --> 00:14:10.879
Interesting.
00:14:11.120 --> 00:14:16.480
But he didn't just give it light or create light in a world of candles, he changed economies.
00:14:16.879 --> 00:14:17.279
Yeah.
00:14:17.679 --> 00:14:24.639
You know, and so with it becomes what's productive, what's not, who is useful and who's not.
00:14:24.960 --> 00:14:25.120
Yeah.
00:14:25.360 --> 00:14:26.879
And we've touched on this a bit.
00:14:27.279 --> 00:14:30.480
But I'm throwing it back at you as a reminder to the audience.
00:14:33.039 --> 00:14:38.000
Does do you see a space, and I think I'm gonna ask the audience to think about it as well.
00:14:38.240 --> 00:14:44.080
Do you see a space around neurodiversity and how it can be understood outside of capitalism?
00:14:44.399 --> 00:14:44.879
Mm-hmm.
00:14:45.039 --> 00:14:45.519
Mm-hmm.
00:14:46.240 --> 00:14:48.399
Or productivity, if that's healthy to say.
00:14:48.720 --> 00:14:50.000
Well, I sure hope so.
00:14:50.159 --> 00:15:07.120
Uh if in the workplace in particular, it's going to be a more challenging road because I think still the workplace, most, if not all of them, are mostly focusing on productivity uh and profit, you know.
00:15:07.360 --> 00:15:30.000
And so uh I'm seeing, at least in my country, the United States, a resistance to um the human, the human case or just like inclusion for inclusion's sake, if there isn't a strong ROI to productivity or um engagement or retention or innovation.
00:15:30.080 --> 00:15:42.159
And I could argue till I'm blue in the face about innovation being like an easy um, you know, connection to diversity of thought, but um, but it's not enough right now.
00:15:42.320 --> 00:15:49.679
It seems that there's a very strong narrative about, and actually kind of gross.
00:15:49.840 --> 00:15:57.679
What I'm hearing is like we need to retention is not the goal, but we need to keep our best people because AI is going to take over so many jobs.
00:15:57.840 --> 00:16:01.600
So retention isn't so much the goal now, but we definitely need to keep our best people.
00:16:01.759 --> 00:16:04.080
And then you're like, what is a best person?
00:16:04.240 --> 00:16:06.559
What defines your best person?
00:16:06.799 --> 00:16:40.159
And then they say the person who is the most productive, um, the person, you know, who works the hardest with the most work ethic, you know, and and then that concerns me a great deal that that now there'll be less jobs and that the people who will be able to um, you know, stay in at work will have to even more so perhaps fit into these neurotypical capitalistic standards of what is a good or best worker, you know.
00:16:40.320 --> 00:16:45.200
And so I it's the opposite direction of what I'd like to see happen.
00:16:45.679 --> 00:16:46.480
Yeah, yeah.
00:16:46.720 --> 00:16:50.559
I am still in that um moment.
00:16:50.799 --> 00:16:55.120
Like I don't feel as dyslexic as I used to because of the way AI works.
00:16:56.000 --> 00:17:07.039
I I don't feel as lost in a list of emails that I need to deal with but won't deal with and wish I dealt with and then forget about them.
00:17:07.440 --> 00:17:09.039
Instead, I can just address them.
00:17:09.200 --> 00:17:15.680
I I I I speak to a machine and it fixes my grandma's burning for me, you know, and it does that so fast.
00:17:17.119 --> 00:17:19.440
It allows me to get on with other things.
00:17:19.519 --> 00:17:21.920
So AI in that sense is helpful, but I I absolutely agree.
00:17:22.160 --> 00:17:24.960
It's a younger generation that's going to take the toll here.
00:17:25.759 --> 00:17:41.839
But I I think like healthy children, and I think that's something I want to touch on for a second, but because healthy children by itself is an asset, you know, not for productivity, but just for uh fruction.
00:17:42.640 --> 00:17:44.240
Continuation of the human race.
00:17:44.480 --> 00:17:44.799
Yeah.
00:17:45.039 --> 00:17:47.920
But we don't we don't measure neurodiversity like that even.
00:17:49.359 --> 00:17:52.720
And I I was a dissecty guy, and I was like, yeah, you're really good at art.
00:17:52.880 --> 00:17:53.680
Well, I'm not.
00:17:53.920 --> 00:17:55.839
And I was like, it sucks to be me.
00:17:56.000 --> 00:17:57.680
I don't do art either.
00:17:58.079 --> 00:17:59.200
Not particularly.
00:17:59.440 --> 00:18:03.359
Um I think I've created things through a a kind of global canvas.
00:18:03.599 --> 00:18:04.880
When I look back on it.
00:18:06.319 --> 00:18:11.839
And I work as an artist of a kind, but I don't draw, you know.
00:18:12.079 --> 00:18:19.200
But I am able to visualize things and piece together a map that others struggled to see.
00:18:19.599 --> 00:18:20.000
Yeah.
00:18:20.240 --> 00:18:23.920
Your art is in your mind and heart, your vision.
00:18:24.240 --> 00:18:25.119
Yeah, yeah.
00:18:25.359 --> 00:18:31.839
And it's it's only when self-esteem can change that you can then see that as a value.
00:18:33.039 --> 00:18:35.039
Especially when others don't do that.
00:18:35.119 --> 00:18:36.960
And what they do is more methodical.
00:18:37.359 --> 00:18:37.920
Yes.
00:18:38.319 --> 00:18:40.319
Or not more methodical, I thought right.
00:18:41.279 --> 00:18:46.720
A more recognized method methodical in a more recognized way.
00:18:48.480 --> 00:18:58.720
And then we go back to those, we need those inventors, those, you know, those the wheel spinners, the the weavers, the the brains that do things that others haven't done.
00:18:59.119 --> 00:18:59.519
Yeah.
00:19:00.319 --> 00:19:01.599
My question to you.
00:19:02.319 --> 00:19:07.039
And I'm not gonna bring us down the road of talking about the orange man in power right now.
00:19:07.200 --> 00:19:11.839
But I'm gonna take us out of there for a second, because it doesn't live and die with him.
00:19:12.160 --> 00:19:13.519
Inclusion doesn't do that.
00:19:14.079 --> 00:19:15.279
But I have a question.
00:19:15.759 --> 00:19:18.880
Neurodiversity Pride was really big around the world.
00:19:19.200 --> 00:19:29.839
And I wanted to ask, given you are in the country with the largest economy in the world, was it big in America really, given?
00:19:30.400 --> 00:19:32.160
And if so, great, why?
00:19:32.400 --> 00:19:34.079
And if not, why?
00:19:35.759 --> 00:19:54.400
Neurodiversity Pride as the day and the event, I didn't see any visibility on it unless I went look, and I did proactively go looking for it because I knew it was that day, but I only knew it was that day because I'm connected to the people who who designed the day.
00:19:54.559 --> 00:20:02.640
And so it didn't come upon me like I think would be nice, you know, for it to be more in the consciousness of of the country.
00:20:02.799 --> 00:20:05.200
I didn't, I didn't sense that here.
00:20:05.599 --> 00:20:19.440
Um and and I don't know, and I and I don't know if the the bigger story is I also don't feel a sense of neurodiversity pride any day in this country.
00:20:19.599 --> 00:20:25.519
And I also don't see as much momentum in my neurodiversity work in this country as I do outside the country.
00:20:25.680 --> 00:20:33.119
Most all of my work is in Europe right now, and um, in terms of the organizations I'm working with uh for the most part.
00:20:33.359 --> 00:20:35.839
And so it's interesting to me.
00:20:36.000 --> 00:20:40.960
In fact, most of my clients, like the individuals and couples that I see, are in the states.
00:20:41.119 --> 00:20:49.759
And the reason why they need the mental health support is because they're challenged so much with the ableism at work and the lack of support.
00:20:50.000 --> 00:20:57.680
So my clients are increasing in the states, but the my work and awareness is actually increasing outside of the states.
00:20:57.759 --> 00:21:01.759
So it's not as supported on an organizational level.
00:21:02.720 --> 00:21:02.960
Okay.
00:21:03.599 --> 00:21:04.640
I'm gonna stay on you.
00:21:04.960 --> 00:21:05.599
Why?
00:21:06.000 --> 00:21:08.079
Why would that be?
00:21:08.720 --> 00:21:18.160
So my my guess is that my country, unfortunately, right now, is in a very uh fear-based place.
00:21:18.559 --> 00:21:36.960
Um, there's a lot of fear of what's gonna happen any given day that will impact our economy, our mental health, our safety every day because we have a reckless leader and government.
00:21:37.119 --> 00:21:38.880
And so there's that fear.
00:21:38.960 --> 00:21:44.000
There, what I'm hearing a lot is we're not gonna make any big moves from organizations.
00:21:44.079 --> 00:21:48.960
We're not gonna make any big moves now because it's very uncertain as to what the future will bring.
00:21:49.119 --> 00:21:59.759
Let's wait until November to see what the midterms bring, which will give us a little bit more sense of what the economy might be like, which might inform our budget to be able to bring out.
00:22:00.079 --> 00:22:01.200
Outside people in.
00:22:01.440 --> 00:22:26.480
Meanwhile, let's overwork the neurodivergent employees that we have who are willing to be advocates and let's in-house have them do all the presentations and ERD leads and workshops because we're going to just pull from the people with the lived experience, which is at least something, but I'm finding more often than not over a fear and a pause in general.
00:22:26.720 --> 00:22:30.559
In general, obviously there's a few that aren't like this.
00:22:31.440 --> 00:22:50.960
But just like with the kind of DEI backlash, I'm still seeing a lot of hesitancy for people to uh step into more work for organizations to be more inclusive and more equitable.
00:22:53.519 --> 00:23:11.359
Even to the extent that when I talk to organizations here, they'll say, we love the message, but we need you to do a workshop and not use any of these words, intersectionality, diversity, equity, inclusion, um, justice.
00:23:11.519 --> 00:23:13.680
Like, okay, but what do you want me to talk about in neurodiversity?
00:23:13.759 --> 00:23:15.039
This is gonna be really challenging.
00:23:15.200 --> 00:23:22.480
And so I say, okay, we could talk about it from the level of respect, like respecting all functioning styles, a needs base.
00:23:22.799 --> 00:23:28.000
So I so I have to accommodate quite a bit for that barrier.
00:23:28.319 --> 00:23:30.400
Yeah, okay, so let's stay on this.
00:23:30.480 --> 00:23:35.039
If I'm I'm hopefully not exhausting you, but I want to invite you to ask whatever you want.
00:23:35.119 --> 00:23:39.519
But I know, and it's really speaking to the cross the pond beyond, right?
00:23:39.920 --> 00:23:49.359
Because if we made it all about the big orange man, we would be understandable because that's where the power is right now.
00:23:50.480 --> 00:23:50.960
Alright.
00:23:51.119 --> 00:24:04.000
But in the UK, there is a stronger understanding on neurodiversity and poverty, not the way that I would like it, but certainly in a space where people are trying to understand it, and I get asked.
00:24:05.119 --> 00:24:18.960
And then I could be thinking much more about well, that poverty being an extension of what might be a school-to-prison pipeline, and how many people with ADHD, for example, are in prisons and unspeakable because of poverty and such and such.
00:24:19.279 --> 00:24:32.000
Now, that that's not the only reason someone's in prison, but it would be fair to say that prisons themselves are noticing this much more and choosing to lean into it more, regardless of who's in charge.
00:24:32.559 --> 00:24:44.960
Then you could say there's amazing work um being done in this field, you know, lots of great heroes that I I know I won't name properly, but but one that's close to my heart is uh Amanda Kirby, and she's a professor.
00:24:45.920 --> 00:24:53.440
Um but I might say, and Amanda Amanda will be a guest on the show, I'm sure, hopefully, uh in in heaven, I will ask that.
00:24:53.599 --> 00:24:59.279
But I think that Amanda will probably say, yes, prisoners are paying attention to yes, they are, but not the level they should be.
00:24:59.359 --> 00:25:01.440
And I think that's I would agree.
00:25:02.079 --> 00:25:23.519
And I might say But one thing is happening is we're seeing more neurodiversity specialists talking about the menopause and the specifics to women women have been historically, culturally, socially, economically deeply uh underrepresented in neurodiversity conversations and impact.
00:25:23.680 --> 00:25:25.599
And that's changing in the UK.
00:25:25.839 --> 00:25:33.359
More women's groups about neurodiversity and women specifically is changing.
00:25:33.599 --> 00:25:57.759
I'm gonna give a big shout out to Dear Friendly Brighton Jess Rad, who set up Neurocurious, which is about everybody, but in particular under uh a badge or allegiance to uh a concept of womenhood, you know, and how neurodiversity specifically impacts women and in part hormones and in part menopause and pre-menopause or post-menopause.
00:25:59.119 --> 00:26:06.240
I know I've said a lot there, but what I want to touching on is is America doing anything like that to your mind?
00:26:06.880 --> 00:26:08.400
And if not, why?
00:26:09.039 --> 00:26:13.200
Well, there's quite a bit of conversation about menopause.
00:26:13.279 --> 00:26:17.599
Um, this is the good news in in America, which is which is wonderful.
00:26:17.839 --> 00:26:30.000
Um I personally just did a uh keynote and a talk connecting neurodivergence and menopause, and I've never seen another talk here that connected the two.
00:26:30.160 --> 00:26:34.880
So I don't think that that connection um is very frequently talked about.
00:26:35.039 --> 00:26:48.720
Um certainly there's a lot of people talking about how ADHD in particular um as with hormonal changes and estrogen changes, it impacts uh ADHD and and other forms of neurodivergence.
00:26:48.880 --> 00:27:15.279
But um, but I personally, and I know we might disagree on this, if the in my opinion, the definition of neurodivergence is um is anyone whose functioning diverges from neuronormativity, society's idea of what is normal or ideal, um, which includes all the mental health challenges and includes a lot, a lot of um things way beyond autism, dyslexia, ADHD.
00:27:15.440 --> 00:27:17.119
But I believe it includes menopause.
00:27:17.359 --> 00:27:23.519
I believe it includes PMDD, uh, you know, which is a hormonal shift um during menstruation and a lot of challenges.
00:27:23.680 --> 00:27:33.119
But menopause, um, the the mind changes, not just for women, but non-binary and and trans uh people as well, experience menopause.
00:27:33.279 --> 00:27:54.400
Um and that that the impacts of our mind, but also body, but also the fact that we're marginalized similarly uh through ageism and ableism, um, and you could throw in sexism and a lot of other isms in there, um, make it a neurodivergence, a form of neurodivergence.
00:27:54.559 --> 00:27:59.359
So I consider menopause as under the neurodivergent umbrella.
00:27:59.519 --> 00:28:02.000
Um, and that I don't hear very often.
00:28:02.160 --> 00:28:10.240
And in fact, I I get a lot of challenge from it, but it's the same people who challenge me on bipolar being under or or traumatic brain injury.
00:28:10.319 --> 00:28:14.319
It's just it's just a more expansive, inclusive umbrella that I'm yeah.
00:28:14.400 --> 00:28:17.279
No, I I'm I'm I'm with you.
00:28:18.079 --> 00:28:19.519
Um I'm very with you.
00:28:19.759 --> 00:28:23.039
Um yeah, I know, I know I've said it before, I'm gonna say it again.
00:28:23.119 --> 00:28:28.799
That that I think human experience makes us all neurodiverse, but but we're not all marginalized because of it.
00:28:28.880 --> 00:28:30.720
And and and that's the work, right?
00:28:31.119 --> 00:28:31.519
Yeah.
00:28:31.759 --> 00:28:32.960
And to me, that's a difference.
00:28:33.119 --> 00:28:42.559
Like we're all as a human species neurodiverse, um, but neurodivergent speaks to the people who are marginalized.
00:28:43.119 --> 00:28:45.200
Yeah, I I I agree with you.
00:28:45.519 --> 00:28:51.680
My hesitation, and I think that's and it's delicious that we have that slight difference, but not much.
00:28:51.759 --> 00:28:56.799
In your in in some what I know of, and the joy I've had in getting to know you, it's not much of a difference.
00:28:56.960 --> 00:29:18.400
I suppose because I think as a person of colour, I'm already divergent from a lot of power modelling, with or without a diagnosis for something, or we've even without a need for a diagnosis, we're just divergent from power relationships, and I think that there's not a woman in the world that couldn't testify to that at some point as well.
00:29:18.720 --> 00:29:24.880
Um so I suppose my problem is probably I'm being a stickler, but I do struggle with the term neurodivergent.
00:29:25.279 --> 00:29:29.200
But what in the absence of a better word, I don't really have one right now.
00:29:29.599 --> 00:29:38.160
So, but what I do think is there are people whose way of learning and teaching have been welcomed, particularly in the 20th century.
00:29:38.960 --> 00:29:54.319
Uh, that may not have been welcomed before that, but they've particularly been welcomed in the 20th century, and I think the people's skills and different assets that were welcomed hundreds and hundreds of years ago and probably deeply, deeply needed uh are less welcomed now.
00:29:56.880 --> 00:29:58.240
Just as deeply needed.
00:29:58.720 --> 00:29:59.200
Yeah.
00:29:59.599 --> 00:30:13.519
Um, but I don't know if I would call that divergent because I like I said, the social structures and the super social structures make people of color divergent by the very nature of their colourless skin and how they access power in the world.
00:30:14.000 --> 00:30:19.759
And and whilst I can say that we are global majority voices by the virtue of our colour skin.
00:30:20.079 --> 00:30:24.559
Yeah, I think the majority of people are neurodivergent as well.
00:30:24.720 --> 00:30:28.720
Like, I don't think it's neurodivergent from a statistical norm or a bell curve.
00:30:28.799 --> 00:30:32.160
It's I think most people are neurodivergent for a variety of reasons.
00:30:32.319 --> 00:30:42.880
Some are intersectional, marginalized identities, and that very few people are neurotypical if they are even truly neurotypical, if they're not masked neurotypical.
00:30:43.039 --> 00:30:56.480
Um, and at any point, somebody will become neurodivergent, and most people do become neurodivergent as they as they age, uh, um, just like we all become disabled in some way.
00:30:56.640 --> 00:30:58.000
Uh yeah, yeah, absolutely.
00:30:58.079 --> 00:31:01.200
And it brings us back to the barriers that we face rather than labels.
00:31:01.279 --> 00:31:02.480
Yeah, no, absolutely.
00:31:02.640 --> 00:31:09.200
Um, so I want to ask this question then in the context, I'm again, I want to ask to really park Trump for a second.
00:31:09.599 --> 00:31:14.240
Because I still would say, how is this different under Biden or even Obama?
00:31:14.480 --> 00:31:14.960
Mm-hmm.
00:31:15.119 --> 00:31:15.599
Mm-hmm.
00:31:16.319 --> 00:31:27.519
Maybe I wouldn't like to go further than that because I'm not sure we'd get very far, particularly under Reagan issues.
00:31:28.160 --> 00:31:33.200
But I think you could look at Obama and say, well, there was a kind of hope for an egal.
00:31:33.519 --> 00:31:42.000
I'm maybe dressing this up, but at least for the U US internally, there was a kind of hope for an egalitarianism to happen in America.
00:31:42.240 --> 00:31:46.640
Maybe not with foreign policy, but certainly for US citizens.
00:31:50.319 --> 00:31:57.039
It wasn't like, hey, there's a major space around how people partake in autism or ADHD under the Obama time, right?
00:31:57.279 --> 00:31:57.519
No.
00:31:58.720 --> 00:32:02.880
And and and would it be fair to say there was a conversation about prison, to your knowledge?
00:32:02.960 --> 00:32:05.839
I mean, it might prison services and things like that.
00:32:06.400 --> 00:32:22.480
I did hear more about the school to prison pipeline during Obama years, but I think it's interesting to note that once you and in interesting, like with Biden, he was very much pro-um LGBTQIA rights.
00:32:22.720 --> 00:32:26.640
And and I think all these liberation movements are certainly connected.
00:32:26.880 --> 00:32:46.160
And so when you have leadership that's trying to reduce the barriers around racism or leadership that's trying to reduce the barriers around sexuality or gender identity, then you're also going to start to um organically unlike unravel and challenge the barriers around neurodiversity.
00:32:46.400 --> 00:33:06.000
And so I feel like I feel like right now that's why we're at a bit of a standstill, because we're not getting any uh progress in any liberation movement of any kind, you know, other than like this this white man in power with a lot of money.
00:33:06.160 --> 00:33:41.119
And so so I so I believe and hope that whoever's coming into power next, like like this is this is my dream, you know, like uh somebody like Pete Buddhej, who's a a brilliant uh thinker, uh gay man, married to a man, raising beautiful children, like has like an excellent uh way to really get to the root of it, saying, you know, not only do we need the diversity um of people and and thought and functioning styles, but like that that's that's what makes you know humanity beautiful and is our strength.
00:33:41.200 --> 00:33:47.839
And like anytime people challenge him about his sexuality, he turns it right back around to like just any difference, any difference.
00:33:48.079 --> 00:34:16.400
And um, I'm not quoting him at all ill eloquently, but um, but I think if we had a leader who's who's just like, it doesn't matter what label we're talking about, whether we're talking about somebody who's gay or autistic or or black or an immigrant or whatever, like we're talking about different, different people and honoring and respecting and not dehumanizing and stigmatizing and pathologizing anybody.
00:34:16.559 --> 00:34:33.679
Like just like, and so I I'm I'm not holding my breath, but that's that's you know, and I think people can still do that within the leadership that we have right now on a smaller scale, personally and individually, and in small groups and in small, you know, it's communities.
00:34:33.920 --> 00:34:43.760
But um, but I think it will be helpful when we have somebody in leadership who's consistently giving that message and challenging the yeah, for sure, for sure.
00:34:44.000 --> 00:34:52.960
I mean, I think what you've just said there is the nicest part of and most nicest part of neurodiversity pride I've I think I'm gonna hear this this month, right?
00:34:53.199 --> 00:35:03.440
Um, because what you're touching on is our and you know, and those of you who are new to the podcast, I'm just gonna say, but those of you who've heard it or following us because we talk about this.
00:35:03.760 --> 00:35:05.360
This is our collective liberation.
00:35:05.519 --> 00:35:05.840
Yeah.
00:35:06.000 --> 00:35:11.199
That you cannot be well if people of colour in your nation are not well and not safe, not welcomed.
00:35:11.440 --> 00:35:19.840
You cannot be well, and nor can your children be well if people who are gay are not welcomed or made to feel safe in the world that you share with them.
00:35:20.480 --> 00:35:35.519
I I truly think this is the evolution of this, and I truly think that a generation after us will be able to hold on to that, you know, in a stronger way, and perhaps in a way that we haven't really seen since the civil rights movements in the 60s.
00:35:36.960 --> 00:35:42.800
Um I do kind of like action and reaction being equal and opposite.
00:35:43.280 --> 00:35:44.079
I wish that was true.
00:35:44.239 --> 00:35:45.840
It's Newton's fourth law.
00:35:46.639 --> 00:35:48.719
Action and reaction are equal and opposite.
00:35:49.840 --> 00:35:53.440
They're actually not though, are they, in terms of social outcries.
00:35:53.840 --> 00:35:57.360
Some social outcries can change a president's mind.
00:35:57.760 --> 00:35:59.280
Yeah, and some won't.
00:35:59.679 --> 00:36:00.239
Yeah.
00:36:01.199 --> 00:36:03.840
And some can be so egregious that lives are lost.
00:36:04.000 --> 00:36:04.079
Yeah.
00:36:04.320 --> 00:36:06.400
And despite the number of lives lost.
00:36:06.639 --> 00:36:06.960
Yeah.
00:36:07.440 --> 00:36:09.039
It still doesn't move a president.
00:36:09.199 --> 00:36:11.039
I I'm not talking about this specific one.
00:36:11.119 --> 00:36:11.360
I know.
00:36:12.400 --> 00:36:13.119
In in general.
00:36:13.599 --> 00:36:14.239
Yeah.
00:36:14.960 --> 00:36:21.599
And I look at America and I think you it has one of its economies, one of its largest manufacturing economies, is those prisons themselves.
00:36:21.840 --> 00:36:25.119
They are a punitive sentence of a kind.
00:36:25.199 --> 00:36:26.880
I don't I hope I'm saying that right.
00:36:27.199 --> 00:36:31.760
But it's actually an extended form of slave economy.
00:36:32.159 --> 00:36:32.400
Yeah.
00:36:33.199 --> 00:36:39.840
And now with the detention centers beyond prisons, specifically detention centers for uh for immigrants.
00:36:40.000 --> 00:37:04.320
And also, I'm hearing currently um a push to institutionalize uh disabled people, uh, specifically intellectually, developmentally disabled people, and and taking rights away from families and schools and communities that would that would typically be able to, you know, provide resources.
00:37:04.480 --> 00:37:18.400
Like so people are quite scared right now about, and that's going back to like many, many decades ago, but but also eugenics, um, you know, and in in just like who's worthy of freedom.
00:37:18.719 --> 00:37:19.679
Yeah, yeah.
00:37:20.559 --> 00:37:22.079
Yeah, this is true, all right.
00:37:22.159 --> 00:37:28.639
And this is exactly um, you know, uh I think the uh mention I wasn't gonna say his name.
00:37:28.960 --> 00:37:34.480
The only thing the only honest thing he did or say was that I'm gonna come for EDI, and he did, right?
00:37:34.639 --> 00:37:34.719
Yeah.
00:37:39.360 --> 00:37:45.679
Um, but I do think that says more about us, where we were at, and we're willing to fold in three months.
00:37:45.840 --> 00:37:49.039
And I know that's not all of us, I know a lot of companies said no, we're gonna.
00:37:49.199 --> 00:37:53.280
I've just come back from speaking in Barcelona for the Working Futures Conference, and it was great.
00:37:53.440 --> 00:37:57.039
Um and I was deliciously reminding my audience is Europeans.
00:37:57.119 --> 00:38:10.159
We talked a little bit about the big man in the White House, but what what I loved, and I was very conscious suddenly and awakened to it, that I'm not speaking to an English audience.
00:38:10.239 --> 00:38:17.519
Uh you know, I was speaking to an international audience and they're Europeans, and they said, and a French guy said, Oh, yeah, but we are Europeans.
00:38:17.679 --> 00:38:24.159
Now it's really nice to hear that because English people can after Brexit, particularly, it it doesn't do that well.
00:38:24.320 --> 00:38:25.440
We should, but we don't.
00:38:25.519 --> 00:38:28.960
And hearing a French man, he didn't say, Um, well, yeah, but we're French, we don't care about Trump.
00:38:29.199 --> 00:38:36.800
He said, No, but we are Europeans, you know, and as Europeans, we think as a community, to you know, of what inclusion looks like, what fairness looks like.
00:38:37.280 --> 00:38:39.039
And I was just like, wow, this is just nice.
00:38:39.119 --> 00:38:40.079
I love the vigour.
00:38:40.480 --> 00:38:44.000
I loved not having to tiptoe around the conversation.
00:38:44.559 --> 00:38:54.480
And I could show his picture and say, look, either he sets the pace of the world and the world says that's okay, or the world says no.
00:38:55.840 --> 00:39:02.719
And and but I also look at Europeans and think, well, I'm in Brighton, I know that's geography-wise, it's on the coast.
00:39:03.679 --> 00:39:07.920
I'm closer, just 20 miles across that water, and I hit France.
00:39:09.280 --> 00:39:11.679
I hit London than 60 miles.
00:39:12.000 --> 00:39:17.039
I promise you, we have a better Equality Act in the UK than anything in France.
00:39:17.360 --> 00:39:26.559
We have a better inclusion and fairness for marginalized people, be they gay, disabled, elderly, queer, born diverse or divergent.
00:39:27.599 --> 00:39:28.719
Yeah, better.
00:39:29.440 --> 00:39:33.199
And I'm not trying to say this because I want to ride France down.
00:39:33.599 --> 00:39:46.239
I'm saying because if I look at the ADA, I'd even American discrimination uh discrimination I'd still say that's better than a lot what Europe has, be it holding on to itself by Freds.
00:39:46.719 --> 00:39:47.119
Mm-hmm.
00:39:47.280 --> 00:39:49.920
Yeah, yeah, from an accessibility standpoint for sure.
00:39:50.159 --> 00:39:54.079
France is kind of known, unfortunately, for being inaccessible for the disabled people.
00:39:54.239 --> 00:39:54.800
Yeah, yeah.
00:39:55.039 --> 00:40:07.599
Yeah, and and and this was the rest of the audience was not just French, but it was, you know, uh a group of good committed people, but they were from countries that have a historical track record and not being so great on it.
00:40:07.760 --> 00:40:08.079
Yeah.
00:40:08.239 --> 00:40:11.440
But also a track record of saying we want to.
00:40:11.599 --> 00:40:11.840
Good.
00:40:12.079 --> 00:40:13.199
We want to move forward.
00:40:13.360 --> 00:40:13.519
Good.
00:40:13.679 --> 00:40:18.239
Whereas okay, you're saying, no, we want to take back what we what we did.
00:40:18.639 --> 00:40:21.599
And the UK has gone, hmm, I never know which way to go.
00:40:23.840 --> 00:40:25.039
That that does my heading.
00:40:25.199 --> 00:40:27.679
The UK is just like when you make your mind up, make a stand.
00:40:27.920 --> 00:40:28.400
Yeah.
00:40:30.239 --> 00:40:31.519
Yeah, yeah.
00:40:31.760 --> 00:40:41.920
I I've never felt as uh included or s or safe um in from public transportation to the buildings to theaters.
00:40:42.079 --> 00:40:57.199
It was the it's the only place I can wear the sunflower lanyard um showing non-apparent or invisible disabilities, however you say it, um, that it was immediately recognized by anyone and honored with deep compassion.
00:40:57.440 --> 00:40:58.800
I was so impressed.
00:40:59.679 --> 00:41:00.239
In Europe.
00:41:00.480 --> 00:41:01.440
In in the UK.
00:41:01.920 --> 00:41:02.480
Oh, okay.
00:41:02.559 --> 00:41:03.039
All right, right.
00:41:03.360 --> 00:41:04.320
Not anywhere else.
00:41:04.559 --> 00:41:10.880
Not anywhere else, not in any of the other European countries that uh that I had visited or places beyond.
00:41:11.119 --> 00:41:12.880
It's it's only been in the UK UK.
00:41:13.440 --> 00:41:16.559
Oh wow, yeah, I do recommend wearing if you're going on a plane.
00:41:16.639 --> 00:41:18.639
You can you can it helps, it helps.
00:41:18.719 --> 00:41:20.880
Yeah, yeah, we can spend all time with things, yeah.
00:41:21.119 --> 00:41:23.199
Um okay, all right.
00:41:23.280 --> 00:41:38.320
So we're coming to the end of this, and I guess I want to just give uh space for any questions you've got to ask, and if you have any burning ones, but but I I'm I'm really enjoying today's one because we're in a kind of a an interesting space.
00:41:38.480 --> 00:41:43.920
The World Cup is going on, you know, things in America bring that into a space.
00:41:44.639 --> 00:41:53.280
Um we're watching things happening about a you know, a lake being an international incident, which makes no sense to me.
00:41:53.440 --> 00:41:54.719
Um what is that?
00:41:54.800 --> 00:41:55.920
Say the last part again?
00:41:56.239 --> 00:41:58.639
Um, you know, the lake, the the the reflecting pool.
00:41:58.880 --> 00:41:59.920
Oh, the pool, yes.
00:42:00.239 --> 00:42:03.119
Yeah, and so I'm thinking, why is this making so much attention?
00:42:03.199 --> 00:42:05.679
But I I that's not something I understand.
00:42:05.920 --> 00:42:14.159
Um the the uh world wrestling happening in the White House, that's slightly funny, do you know?
00:42:14.800 --> 00:42:17.039
It's fairly humorous and disgusting, yeah.
00:42:17.360 --> 00:42:24.559
But then I'm thinking a year ago, you guys really trashed into Zelensky for not wearing a suit as if he were bringing bad decorum to the White House.
00:42:24.719 --> 00:42:26.719
Right here are having wrestling matches.
00:42:26.880 --> 00:42:34.800
So it's kind of all these sort of comical things that we're seeing, but the heart of it is still people trying to make their way safely through this work.
00:42:35.440 --> 00:42:49.280
So I guess if I could ask you one question is if we looked at neurodiversity pride this time next year in America a year from now, and it was awesome, that really good?
00:42:51.840 --> 00:42:52.239
Why?
00:42:52.400 --> 00:42:53.280
What did we do?
00:42:53.360 --> 00:42:57.440
I mean, not just you and me, but what did America do to make it awesome this time?
00:42:58.559 --> 00:43:01.840
What do you think that they did or would have done?
00:43:02.400 --> 00:43:04.960
Yeah, it's gonna it would be hard to do it within a year.
00:43:05.119 --> 00:43:08.880
Um, because I think there is the awareness.
00:43:09.360 --> 00:43:20.880
Um, I don't think yet that we're in a play, and there's a there's a little bit of like we've gone from awareness to affirming somewhat, affirming some forms of neurodivergence, but not all.
00:43:21.039 --> 00:43:27.840
And then there's this responsiveness that we're very, very far from, you know, and and action very, very far from.
00:43:27.920 --> 00:43:29.599
There's a lot of performative efforts.
00:43:29.760 --> 00:43:58.559
And so, you know, in a year, I guess what I would hope realistically is that some organizations with a lot of visibility and and power and influence would be not just awareness and affirming, but really, really responsive and and um proactive and um and strong in their uh advocating.
00:43:58.800 --> 00:44:04.400
And um and And pride, but but more so I want systemic change, you know.
00:44:04.480 --> 00:44:12.559
Like I think pride is great, but then if we have like pride and you know gay rights and gay marriages taken away, like that's that's not helpful.
00:44:12.639 --> 00:44:13.199
You know what I mean?
00:44:13.280 --> 00:44:17.119
Like I I want I want pride and action, neurodiversity and beyond.
00:44:17.360 --> 00:44:29.119
And so um yeah, I think it would I think it would look like policy change and and uh you know strategic change and systemic change.
00:44:29.760 --> 00:44:30.079
Good.
00:44:30.239 --> 00:44:40.960
Well, look, here's hoping, I think, for for for for so many ways, because whatever happens in your country, you do set the pace to an Well, I don't know.
00:44:41.039 --> 00:44:45.440
It sounds like the UK might need to set the pace on this one, like maybe Yeah, yeah.
00:44:45.599 --> 00:44:56.559
Like I said, I think the UK is is needs an awful lot of work to understand the barriers that really affect the lives of our neurodiversity folks and our disabled folks.
00:44:56.719 --> 00:45:04.000
And I think we have to do so much more in the UK to understand what is a disabling situation rather than who's got a disability.
00:45:04.400 --> 00:45:04.719
Yeah.
00:45:04.960 --> 00:45:15.679
Um and I think we're not even close to honouring what's enshrined in our own equalities act, even though that equality act came out in you know 2010.
00:45:16.960 --> 00:45:20.159
We're not even close to recognize what that actu actually means.
00:45:20.800 --> 00:45:27.519
But I also think, and I don't want us to compare good enough with bad practice.
00:45:27.760 --> 00:45:28.800
Right, right, right, right.
00:45:29.920 --> 00:45:34.719
I want to compare great, yeah, because great is deserved, yeah.
00:45:35.440 --> 00:45:45.519
Um, and so I think I'm just gonna finish this that great is deserved, whether it's in US or UK or Cameroon or Sudan or Ghana or anywhere, right?
00:45:45.920 --> 00:45:59.920
I think in a lot of the world, LGBTQIA plus pride has come a long way in beyond awareness and beyond affirmation and to a lot of really great systemic change.
00:46:00.320 --> 00:46:11.119
And I think that that's a wonderful model to follow as we look at neurodiversity pride or mad pride or disability pride, um, all the other movements.
00:46:11.679 --> 00:46:12.719
Yeah, yeah.
00:46:12.880 --> 00:46:13.599
All right, good.
00:46:13.760 --> 00:46:15.599
Well, look, we're gonna finish here, I think.
00:46:15.760 --> 00:46:23.760
And I'm gonna ask those watching is please reach out to us and tell us about anybody that you think should be a guest on this show.
00:46:23.920 --> 00:46:24.960
We're really interested.
00:46:25.280 --> 00:46:27.760
This is series, this is episode seven.
00:46:27.840 --> 00:46:35.199
Uh, and I promise Passion I that by the time we get to episode 10, what we're gonna start doing is having guests on this show.
00:46:35.360 --> 00:46:45.679
Um, we really want to hear from you folks if you think that somebody whose work particularly would challenge, I guess, some of the conversations that Pasha and I have, that would be great.
00:46:45.840 --> 00:46:53.679
And by challenge, I mean people who may be more traditionally into uh diagnostics or pathology models.
00:46:53.920 --> 00:47:01.360
But I suspect anyone really into that will probably be balanced to understand the joy of what Pasha brings to this and me about barriers.
00:47:01.599 --> 00:47:02.480
But I don't know.
00:47:02.719 --> 00:47:04.559
We want to throw this to you guys.
00:47:04.800 --> 00:47:10.639
We want to ask people: can we get a heads around that poverty changes how we understand neurodiversity?
00:47:10.800 --> 00:47:15.599
That hormones may change the way women get to share neurodiversity.
00:47:15.920 --> 00:47:18.159
Um, does that apply to men too?
00:47:18.239 --> 00:47:18.960
I I I don't know.
00:47:19.039 --> 00:47:20.079
I want to throw this out there.
00:47:20.320 --> 00:47:26.880
One thing I do know is that the Eurocentric modeling of neurodiversity cannot stay forever.
00:47:27.199 --> 00:47:48.639
I think it's not relevant, and I think that it is potentially, and I say this with love, if I can, if that's not a contradiction, but I I say this that it is at times reinforcing white supremacy because it's close to being curious about what neurodiversity looks like in other worlds or other places in the planet.
00:47:49.039 --> 00:47:56.400
It it mostly looks at how they should assimilate European models or Eurocentric ones and how they're supposed to assimilate it better.
00:47:56.639 --> 00:48:02.239
So that's going to change, and I suspect that we'll just have to, and I'm looking forward to that.
00:48:02.320 --> 00:48:08.000
I may not be around to really see the best of that, but I do think I'm playing a part in making it happen already.
00:48:08.239 --> 00:48:16.000
Um and so I just invite you all to join us in this conversation, this invitation, and tell us look, what would you like us to talk about?
00:48:16.159 --> 00:48:18.719
What guests would you really insist on us having?
00:48:18.800 --> 00:48:23.599
And what does Neurodiversity Pride 2030 look like for you?
00:48:25.440 --> 00:48:26.639
Good questions.
00:48:26.800 --> 00:48:29.599
I hope we get lots of uh feedback on that.
00:48:29.679 --> 00:48:37.039
And I I love that idea of uh bringing in guests that would challenge that would challenge us, not just mirror what we're saying.
00:48:37.280 --> 00:48:43.039
And the and guests beyond, you know, the UK and the United States and Europe.
00:48:43.199 --> 00:48:45.760
Uh it would be especially impactful.
00:48:46.719 --> 00:48:47.280
Brilliant.
00:48:47.440 --> 00:48:52.159
Okay, well, look, um, this is it for me, at least I think in my head and heart.
00:48:52.239 --> 00:48:54.239
Um Pasha, I suppose might be messed up.
00:48:54.639 --> 00:48:54.800
Yes.
00:48:55.360 --> 00:48:56.719
We're good, we're complete.
00:48:57.039 --> 00:48:57.599
Yeah.
00:48:57.920 --> 00:48:58.320
Great.
00:48:58.880 --> 00:49:01.039
Well done, folks, and thank you for joining us.
00:49:01.119 --> 00:49:05.440
And as ever, saying Tash, please reach out, please just shout what you need from us.
00:49:06.079 --> 00:49:07.679
Thank you, everybody, for joining us.
00:49:07.840 --> 00:49:08.719
See you soon.
