E24 - Humanitarian Applications of TRE: Disaster Response & Finding Local Champions with Sae Kani

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Welcome to the Neurogenic Integration Podcast, where we explore the incredible potential of neurogenic tremoring beyond the basics.
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I'm Alex Green.
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And I am Sebia Sun Shields.
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Together, we'll be diving into how this natural innate process can be seen and applied across different professions, healing modalities, and in scientific research.
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Whether you're a practitioner, a coach, a therapist, a body worker, or a researcher, this podcast is for you.
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Join us as we uncover the science, share experiences, and explore how neurogenic integration is revolutionizing the way we approach stress, trauma, and well-being.
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So take a breath, get comfortable, and let's dive in.
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All right, welcome everybody.
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Today I'm very excited to be sitting down with my colleague Sai Kani.
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And Sai is a TRE certification trainer and provider, of course, based outside of Mount Fuji in Japan, in Yamanashi Prefecture, outside of Tokyo.
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And uh I first met Sai about almost 10 years ago when I was fortunate to travel to an event that she coordinated at uh Koyasan outside of Osaka in Japan.
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This was sort of like an advanced training with Dr.
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Braseli and many other providers, and it was a unique uh training experience because the setting was at a Buddhist temple up in a sort of a famous Buddhist mountain area, and it was uh quite cool in all ways.
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And that sort of coincided with, if I remember correctly, Csai, that was about the time that you became a certification trainer, because it was right at the end of your journey in that.
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Yeah.
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Um, so in any case, so Cai is um has a really uh fascinating background uh even even before her work in TRE, working with NGO uh organizations with an emphasis on humanitarian work.
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And that's really the major theme that we're gonna be discussing today, in addition to hearing, you know, just about SI's connection to TRE and how she how she became so committed to it.
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Um and uh because Psy has been very involved with uh humanitarian applications of TRE, and so today I would really like to discuss that um journey, some of the sort of unique um uh projects uh that Sai has been involved with TRE in a humanitarian context.
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And then every time I talk with Sai, she has really great ideas, or even I would say a vision around uh we could almost call it the do's and don'ts of of uh bringing or or the best practices or or better practices, uh what works and doesn't work very well uh in terms of supporting things like disasters and things like that based upon her uh her experience over her career.
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So, this is um what I'm really hoping that we can discuss today, Sai.
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And thank you so much for taking some time on a what a Tuesday morning for you.
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Yeah?
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Right.
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Yeah.
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Good welcome.
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Thank you.
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Thank you very much.
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Good.
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Well, Cai, could we just sort of I always like to hear somebody's kind of like their why or their their background, like uh not even the why for TRE, I do want to hear that, but like what you know, I you're you're born and raised in Japan, but you've spent a lot of time, uh some of some of your education and career has been overseas.
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Could you just sort of take us through kind of, you know, as you began your professional career, what what you were wanting to achieve and and be a part of, and uh eventually how that led you into the work you did with NGOs and ultimately to TRE.
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So yeah, just sort of take us on your background journey if you're if you're willing to.
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All right.
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So uh thank you very much um for the invitation.
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Um I was born and raised in Japan until I was 18.
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But um since I was quite young, I was very interested in working in developing countries like Africa and Asia.
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Um I don't know if you were around the same age as me, you might remember this feminine Ethiopia, you know, the UNICEF is raising funds in schools and you bring your pocket money and all that.
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It was something about working in the environment completely different from mine.
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I don't know why I was so fascinated.
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Um, but at the time when I had to choose my direction to the university in Japan or whatever, I realized that there was nothing I wanted to study in Japan.
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You know, development studied something more towards development of economy, you know, so that there was a with a department of economics and then you you study about economic development, which was not part of my interest.
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And I happened to find this university in the UK.
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I mean, UK was very advanced in terms of uh community-based development studies.
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So I went to UK and studied the development studies in my my undergraduate and master's.
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So um nearly 10 years I was working studying in a development field.
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Um 2006, well, before that I was a photojournalist, by the way.
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Okay, cool.
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Four or five years.
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Um, I've got another master's in photojournalism.
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So I was traveling around the post-conflict, post-disaster area, taking photos, writing articles as a freelance journalist.
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I don't I don't want to skip over, I mean, that part sounds very, very relevant.
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Maybe perhaps maybe let's not skip too quickly past that.
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Uh maybe could you just share some of the places and locations that you that you did that photojournalism in?
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Ah, okay.
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So um after I studied my development studies, um I already got a little bit disappointed about the how aid agencies operate in terms of really knowing the the things behind the scene.
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So I'm already not so enthusiastic, I'm not so euphoric about oh, you know, helping poor people.
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That kind of perspective is already.
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I mean, without maybe without if you don't want to name names, that's okay, but like just aid organizations in general, like or yes, yes, yes.
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Well, we all know nowadays, right?
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Yeah.
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Aid agency collect a lot of money, and a lot of money doesn't go to the community directly.
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Right.
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A lot of the money is spent for the managing the institutions.
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Right.
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Which is the same way as corporate.
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I mean, sure.
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You know?
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So I am not looking, I was not looking for the the the path of being elite in the development.
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So I never wanted to get a job in World Bank, IMF, that kind of uh developmental elite.
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Okay.
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I was always interested in the community-based grassroots work.
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I see.
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So I'm kind of rebel.
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Okay.
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As always.
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Um, yeah.
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So when I finished my master's degree, I got a little bit disappointed about that.
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And then I loved photography, so I took the path of studying journalism, photojournalism.
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And um basically I was doing a very small project around northern England where I was living.
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I was focusing on the project on asylum seekers, female asylum seekers.
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Um I am kind of unique, you know, I am not white, but I am not South Asian, which was a major conflict in North England.
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Okay.
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You know, the Asian community, Indian Pakistan, and then the white English community.
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Right.
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And there was almost no friendly contact in the middle.
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There's a lot of conflict between those two communities.
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Exactly.
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But I am not belonging either.
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So I could go in between, and I'm female, so I could reach out to the female Islamic asylum seeker community in northern England and how they are home schooling the girls and children there.
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So it was a very interesting experience as a startup.
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And then I started to travel abroad.
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I was in Indonesia mainly, and I was also covering a story of independence of East Timo, the Timo Leste, in 2002.
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Um, I was also joining in a local media team to go along with the first president of Istimo, Shanana Gusmao.
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So again, because I have a local contact and I studied Indonesian language, so I spoke Indonesian quite well at the time.
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So instead of going to the major um news agency, I could operate quite independently around those areas with a local journalist.
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So I could see a lot of um stories behind the scene, it doesn't show up in the major media.
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You see, that's the kind of interest I just want to see the the authenticity of people and stories, and even it never shows up to the major uh media, you know.
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I still have uh uh like 10,000 photographs from those times, and a lot of the picture weren't accepted by the agency.
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Very simple reason.
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Oh, the president is smoking, you know, we are not allowed to show the cigarettes in our news, like silly.
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Right, interesting.
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Anyway, it's okay, you know.
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So I I was not very successful journalist to make a living, right?
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Right, but it really nurtured me as a person.
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Okay, and 2004 there was a massive tsunami in Thailand, you know, that the northern religious mantra.
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Yeah, I was in Bali at the time, so I just gathered my things and I just flew to uh Aceh, which is uh the epicenter of that tsunami area.
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So again, I was alone.
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I met a local journalist along the way in the airplane.
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So again, it was quite a you know, a journey, it's adventure.
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Because at the time that North Sumatra, it's a region called Ace, autonomous province, was not uh accessible by foreign journalists because there was an internal fight going on.
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But uh because this is an I this is a region or in Indonesia, is that correct?
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Yeah, it's a the top of Sumatra, it's called Ace, it's a separate region, autonomous region.
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It's like Istimo, it's the same political context at the time.
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The two of them wanted to be independent from Indonesia.
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Okay, so that there was a lot of uh sensitivity, political sensitivity around that area.
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Yeah, you know, so so yeah, at the time that the tsunami hit, it was still a lot of um difficulty accessing.
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That's why the story didn't come out immediately from Aceh at the time of the tsunami.
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So I was with a local journalist, I look agent, I put the head scarf like a Muslim scarf, and I just went.
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Wow.
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Uh on on the road, not by plane.
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And and what were you were you photographing, were you interviewing?
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What what were you doing?
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I was photographing of interviewing.
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I was writing a story to the Japanese um uh new web web agency.
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Web news agency.
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Yeah.
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So so that also was my encounter with disaster, big disaster.
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I mean, that sounds intense probably in lots of ways.
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How long were you on the ground and how yeah, how did that how did that affect you?
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I imagine that was I imagine you saw uh firsthand a lot of the destruction and devastation.
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Yes, yes.
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Um I was there about three weeks on the ground.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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And and and eventually I got exhausted and I came home and I was diagnosed as PTSD.
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Oh, really?
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Really?
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It's interesting.
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Yeah, it's very interesting because when I was there, I felt nothing.
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I was probably now I know, I disconnected my emotions, yeah, and I was just going, going, going, you know.
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Absolutely, absolutely.
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It it it's it's intense.
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It's intense, you know.
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It's it's Indonesia and it was like people, like whole village, 5,000 people disappeared, and I was dropped by the uh US helicopter, and just be by myself walking around, taking photos, interviewing people.
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Yeah, it was very intense, but also very touching experience as well.
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I met one guy, he just happened to be in another town, went to Tunami Head, and he came back to the village, and the entire village is gone.
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He's like almost 57 family members disappeared.
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He's alone.
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Wow.
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Right?
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And I was thinking if it was Japan, everybody started kidding themselves, you know?
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But he just like, okay, I'm alone, nothing to do, nothing to eat.
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I will join the Red Cross and I will start helping other people.
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So he came and then joined in a Red Cross and just go out with other volunteers, not helping other people.
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This kind of resilience, the strength was something beyond what I could imagine.
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Wow.
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You know?
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So that that this whole experience with the steamer and then all this it really um made my life rich in a way that understanding humanity both light and shadow.
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Wow.
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W you you know, with your PTSD diagnosis when you got home, d do you feel that that was the result of a of a a longer stretch of time, or do you feel that that was directly connected to the intensity of the three weeks in in that?
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I think it was intensity of three weeks.
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Okay.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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Because I recovered quite fast.
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Okay.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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How did you successfully recover at that time?
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I just rested.
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Took two time.
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I had some, yeah, I had some counseling.
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Yeah.
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Um I I practiced meditation at the time already.
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So just the understanding that I needed to process this.
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And you know, obviously, as a photojournalist, I had this huge pile of photographs I needed to process.
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So going through these photographs on my own pace, creating stories, writing about my experiences, this layer of experience, you know, that was helping me to process what happened.
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So, first one month I was like terrible.
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As soon as I left the the Acheh, being on the plane, I felt my energy was like a collapsing.
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I couldn't stand up anymore.
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And as soon as I get home, I was throwing up, I had diarrhea, I had nightmares, I was shaking.
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Wow.
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So so I I kind of knew what was happening, you know.
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It took me about one month physically recovered.
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And then after that, I had these three months, very carefully going through this process, yeah.
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Not go out, not do too much.
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And slowly, slowly um I got better.
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Okay.
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Wow.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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And did and then did you w where yeah, where did after that recovery process and and the careful sorting through of all your materials at your pace, w did you sort of stay in that work for a while or did or did did you start to shift your did your career shift in any direction at that point?
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Or um so uh after that, um I realized, well, photojournal itself is not gonna be able to sustain my living.
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I love the work, I love what I do, but I had to make a lot of compromise.
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If I want to make money from it, I have to work for agencies.
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I have to, you know, sometimes sell my souls, you know?
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Yeah, to make to make enough money, to make myself and and I was also taking photographs in the restaurant and then spa and hotels and writing a travel piece.
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That was fun.
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But when the agencies own my photographs, they have a right to use for whatever.
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You see?
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Yeah, yeah.
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But I didn't want my photographs to be taken out of context.
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Yep.
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And then using the the photographs of the children I took in eastern mode to be advertising something else.
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Right, right, right.
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So this is kind of compromise I couldn't make.
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I see.
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Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
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So so I said, okay, fine.
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So I went back to London and then start working in a normal company for less than a year.
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Something happened again.
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My life is determined by by the disaster.
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So um, and then another big uh disaster happened in Indonesia 2006.
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It's a Dr.
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Carter earthquake.
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Okay.
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And um me and my partner at the time, we both spoke Indonesia and we had development background.
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Yeah, we were sent to Indonesia to start up that new NGO office.
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I see, okay.
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So we started the new office.
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It was a German NGO, but we started the Indonesian branch there in 2006.
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And I worked as a humanitarian aid specialist, disaster management specialist since then for 10 years after.
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I within that organ that within that organization.
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That NGO that you kind of set up with your partner.
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Yes, yes.
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I see.
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That's how it started.
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Tell us a little, I mean, that that's a long 10-year stretch.
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Tell us just a little bit about what your role, what did that mean to be a development specialist or a or or whatever uh I missed what your title was exactly, but yeah.
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So um initially we entered uh the disaster relief, right?
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And set up the office.
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But the disaster relief period is up to six months.
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It's a the project cycle.
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And then the aid starts moving into more midterm development phase, right?
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So the first the all the house is a collapse, you need to give us shelters, you need to set up the toilet, wash, you know, or this kind of the typical um UN-led disaster relief phase.
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Once it's over, some organization would leave.
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The disaster relief special specialists, they would leave then.
00:20:12.799 --> 00:20:19.759
But my background is not so much about the emergency relief, it's more about midterm community-based development.
00:20:19.920 --> 00:20:21.039
That was my background.
00:20:21.359 --> 00:20:21.839
I see.
00:20:22.000 --> 00:20:22.319
Okay.
00:20:22.559 --> 00:20:34.559
So I started to find the gaps in between Indonesian education system, there was no education about disaster preparedness in school.
00:20:34.880 --> 00:20:40.319
For example, I was brought up in Japan, and since kindergarten, we are practicing drills.
00:20:41.279 --> 00:20:43.440
You know, the the earthquake drills.
00:20:43.680 --> 00:20:44.559
Right, yeah, yeah, sure.
00:20:44.880 --> 00:20:47.200
It's part of our education, right?
00:20:47.440 --> 00:20:48.000
Right, right.
00:20:48.319 --> 00:20:56.079
Indonesia is also a supermarket of natural disasters, but they never had any educational curriculum around the disaster preparedness.
00:20:56.480 --> 00:20:56.960
Oh, I see.
00:20:57.119 --> 00:20:57.440
Interesting.
00:20:57.519 --> 00:20:58.079
Okay, yeah.
00:20:58.319 --> 00:21:00.240
So I saw that was a gap.
00:21:00.400 --> 00:21:09.839
So I started to develop the primary school uh curriculum on the disaster preparedness for the schools, and then the training of teachers.
00:21:11.119 --> 00:21:15.599
So that was a beginning, and I'm quite good at finding gaps in between everything.
00:21:15.759 --> 00:21:19.359
So I'm a rebel, I don't want to go to the mainstream, right?
00:21:20.000 --> 00:21:24.079
So uh then I started to realize there was a special needs school there.
00:21:24.400 --> 00:21:33.200
Uh the material I was developing is for the mainstream schools, it was not uh usable for blind or hearing impaired.
00:21:33.680 --> 00:21:40.640
So then I thought I had experience volunteering in Kenya when I was 18 in the school for the deaf.
00:21:40.960 --> 00:21:46.720
So I had that interest in in the disability area also.
00:21:47.200 --> 00:21:49.599
Accessibility Yes, exactly.
00:21:49.839 --> 00:21:59.359
So I started to develop the the teaching material for children with a visually impaired and hearing impaired and intellectual um disability also.
00:22:00.559 --> 00:22:02.640
Working with the school teachers there.
00:22:03.839 --> 00:22:15.680
And at the time, really, the whole Asian region just started to develop this kind of curriculum development with a bigger framework.
00:22:15.759 --> 00:22:17.599
It's called the Hyogo Framework of Action.
00:22:17.680 --> 00:22:23.440
So the whole world started to take this disaster preparedness part seriously.
00:22:24.000 --> 00:22:27.839
Prior to that, it was all about response, response, response.
00:22:28.640 --> 00:22:29.200
Right?
00:22:29.440 --> 00:22:33.680
So just spending money to respond, but there's a no-preparedness in those regions.
00:22:33.759 --> 00:22:37.200
So the another disaster strike, it's the resilience is the same as before.
00:22:37.440 --> 00:22:38.319
Back to square one.
00:22:38.400 --> 00:22:38.640
Yeah.
00:22:38.880 --> 00:22:39.359
Exactly.
00:22:39.920 --> 00:22:48.880
So the whole world started to notice the need to build the capacity to prepare and respond from the community itself.
00:22:49.759 --> 00:22:52.319
So I was in the timing as well.
00:22:52.799 --> 00:23:02.240
Then the material for the disability uh population got a big hit because there was nobody else who was doing it.
00:23:02.400 --> 00:23:11.599
So my material from our organization was showcased in UN and then internationally, and then ASEAN and all this this this.
00:23:11.839 --> 00:23:14.400
So the project got kind of spread.
00:23:15.920 --> 00:23:17.759
So that was my background.
00:23:17.920 --> 00:23:28.000
So I was doing a lot of uh teacher training, a lot of community outreach, uh producing the radio drama around the community preparedness.
00:23:28.240 --> 00:23:32.640
So there is a lot of creative ways to reach the community.
00:23:32.880 --> 00:23:33.359
Wow.
00:23:33.599 --> 00:23:46.400
You see, it was very interesting because when the UN was trying to do the disaster preparedness, it was such a tech-oriented you know, the people we are trying to reach has hasn't got an internet access.
00:23:46.799 --> 00:23:48.000
They're not tech oriented, yeah.
00:23:48.720 --> 00:23:49.119
Right.
00:23:49.440 --> 00:23:55.440
What is the point of producing hundreds of PDF posters that nobody had uh access?
00:23:56.160 --> 00:23:56.640
Right?
00:23:56.880 --> 00:24:06.559
So this is a kind of um disappointment that I experienced when I was in the master's degree, this this disparity of consciousness.
00:24:07.039 --> 00:24:12.480
Like it's obvious gap to me, but a lot of people don't even notice.
00:24:12.880 --> 00:24:22.799
And a lot of money was spent on this kind of high-tech interventions that wasn't going to be the best way to spread information.
00:24:23.119 --> 00:24:23.839
Exactly.
00:24:24.079 --> 00:24:24.559
Exactly.
00:24:24.799 --> 00:24:30.160
So the information outreach was one of my interests because I also as a journalist, right?
00:24:30.319 --> 00:24:31.519
The journalism background.
00:24:31.680 --> 00:24:39.440
So using the the creative media to try to reach out to the community was very interesting.
00:24:39.920 --> 00:24:40.720
Yeah, wow.
00:24:40.960 --> 00:24:46.160
So then so you were in that role and organization, I think you said for 10 years.
00:24:46.400 --> 00:24:50.880
What what what represented the the completion or the decision?
00:24:51.039 --> 00:24:54.720
Like what how did you know when it was time to do something different?
00:24:55.119 --> 00:24:55.599
Right.
00:24:55.839 --> 00:25:01.119
So I was in Indonesia about six years, and then I was in Istimo one year.
00:25:01.200 --> 00:25:03.680
It's all the same job, disaster preparedness.
00:25:03.920 --> 00:25:04.240
I see.
00:25:04.400 --> 00:25:09.200
And then another disaster struck, of course, 2011 in Japan.
00:25:09.519 --> 00:25:10.240
Okay, okay.
00:25:10.480 --> 00:25:17.279
So when tsunami hit to Japan, yeah, my country, I obviously thought I had to be there.
00:25:17.519 --> 00:25:17.759
Right.
00:25:17.920 --> 00:25:21.440
So I left Indonesia, I came back to Japan.
00:25:21.599 --> 00:25:25.759
That was the first time I lived in Japan after 16 years being abroad.
00:25:26.720 --> 00:25:27.119
Wow.
00:25:27.359 --> 00:25:35.279
So then I started to respond in the north of Japan with the tsunami the nuclear disasters, that the tsunami, the leader.
00:25:35.519 --> 00:25:36.720
Tsunami and nuclear, yeah.
00:25:36.799 --> 00:25:38.480
The tsunami first and then nuclear.
00:25:38.640 --> 00:25:39.200
Right, right.
00:25:39.359 --> 00:25:44.400
So I was involved in the reconstruction of the orphanage there.
00:25:44.720 --> 00:25:45.839
Ah, okay.
00:25:46.160 --> 00:25:52.720
Yes, and then try to create it more sustainable um system.
00:25:53.359 --> 00:26:01.440
So when the electricity and water cut off, the the whole building can sustain themselves.
00:26:01.599 --> 00:26:03.359
So renewable energy system.
00:26:03.519 --> 00:26:07.759
So I was a project managing that project when I was in Japan.
00:26:08.400 --> 00:26:16.319
And it's coincidentally, the the last year of that, they were this uh UN conference on disaster in Sendai in Japan.
00:26:16.559 --> 00:26:24.720
And that was for me the completion of these 10 years of my work as a disaster management person.
00:26:25.440 --> 00:26:38.960
Um I organized the group, I already created the disability uh rights movement in the participation in the decision making of humanitarian preparedness and response.
00:26:39.039 --> 00:26:41.839
So I did so much advocacy work at the point.
00:26:42.000 --> 00:26:52.640
I was already sort of, you know, middle management, so not what directly working in the field, but I was more in the the international advocacy area.
00:26:52.880 --> 00:26:53.519
Right.
00:26:54.079 --> 00:27:01.839
And um, it was successfully done, and the the people with disability was directly involved in decision making.
00:27:02.000 --> 00:27:06.799
So for me, my job was done, I felt, at the time.
00:27:08.000 --> 00:27:10.480
I didn't know what to do next.
00:27:10.799 --> 00:27:18.559
Then another disaster struck, which was 2015 April, there's a massive earthquake in Nepal.
00:27:19.039 --> 00:27:20.079
Ah, okay.
00:27:20.400 --> 00:27:21.119
Do you remember?
00:27:21.279 --> 00:27:23.519
I was already TRE provider then.
00:27:23.839 --> 00:27:24.799
Okay, okay.
00:27:25.039 --> 00:27:25.759
Well, okay.
00:27:26.160 --> 00:27:26.559
Ah, okay.
00:27:26.640 --> 00:27:28.480
I need to go back to where we better go.
00:27:28.559 --> 00:27:30.720
Yeah, we better we better we better cover that part then.
00:27:31.279 --> 00:27:31.599
Oh, right.
00:27:31.920 --> 00:27:32.240
Yeah, yeah.
00:27:32.640 --> 00:27:32.880
Right.
00:27:32.960 --> 00:27:41.680
So I uh so when I arrived back in Japan after you know the the tsunami in Japan, it was 2011, April.
00:27:41.920 --> 00:27:42.240
Okay.
00:27:42.480 --> 00:27:54.400
And 2000, beginning of 2012, I discover David Burselli was coming to Japan to help this response.
00:27:54.720 --> 00:27:56.799
To help the Fukushima disaster?
00:27:57.039 --> 00:28:03.359
Uh uh yeah, if Fukushima is is a the nuclear disaster, but uh it's more like a tsunami disaster of the city.
00:28:03.599 --> 00:28:04.000
Oh, I see.
00:28:04.079 --> 00:28:06.960
The tsunami was a bigger a bigger region, yeah.
00:28:07.200 --> 00:28:08.480
Yeah, Tohoku region.
00:28:08.960 --> 00:28:10.559
I see, okay, yeah.
00:28:11.200 --> 00:28:20.480
So um when I read about TRE first time, because David was also the humanitarian worker, right?
00:28:20.720 --> 00:28:21.200
For sure.
00:28:21.440 --> 00:28:38.960
And it really resonated with me because I was working in disaster area for a long time as a journalist and as a as a you know aid worker, I always felt something was missing that was a trauma uh response.
00:28:39.200 --> 00:28:44.400
Okay, you know, international agencies pay for something it's quantifiable.
00:28:44.799 --> 00:28:54.160
For example, two thousand houses was built, 40,000 the tapollings was distributed, all these quantifiable measures.
00:28:54.400 --> 00:28:55.039
I see.
00:28:55.839 --> 00:29:01.119
But trauma care is something not quantifiable.
00:29:01.839 --> 00:29:02.079
Right?
00:29:02.240 --> 00:29:04.720
We cannot measure the progress.
00:29:05.200 --> 00:29:08.720
And it cannot measure the progress in three years.
00:29:09.279 --> 00:29:10.400
Right, right.
00:29:11.200 --> 00:29:17.119
So it's not the kind of subject that eight agency want to give money to.
00:29:17.440 --> 00:29:17.759
Okay.
00:29:18.400 --> 00:29:30.640
Of course, they do things like a child safe place and then create the playground, do the little bit of art therapy here and there, but it's nothing significant enough to change the life of people.
00:29:31.039 --> 00:29:31.359
Okay.
00:29:32.160 --> 00:29:35.279
So I always noticed that something was missing there.
00:29:35.599 --> 00:29:36.240
Something was missing.
00:29:36.640 --> 00:29:46.720
I was in Aceh 2004 and Aceh, Indonesia, you know, after the big big uh tsunami, and I was back there 2014, 10 years later.
00:29:49.119 --> 00:29:52.480
So the change is magnificent, you know.
00:29:52.720 --> 00:30:02.880
Before Aceh was like very, very underdeveloped, constantly with uh fighting and and you know, war and completely torn apart.
00:30:03.200 --> 00:30:15.680
But uh there is a billions of money went in after tsunami in Aceh, and they rebuilt that city completely, you know, so it's it's like new hotels, new houses, new roads, new everything.
00:30:16.799 --> 00:30:24.480
But when I was really reaching out to the community level people talking, the story is is completely different, right?
00:30:24.720 --> 00:30:25.680
Interesting, yeah.
00:30:26.000 --> 00:30:37.920
The aid agency, look at US coming here, build 1000 houses, okay, UK coming here, you know, building another 500 houses sectioned, you know?
00:30:38.000 --> 00:30:43.680
Yeah, there is no coordination with the local community, the web of the community.
00:30:44.079 --> 00:30:46.559
What they needed the most or that sort of thing.
00:30:46.720 --> 00:30:47.680
Yes, yeah, yeah.
00:30:48.480 --> 00:30:50.720
How they needed that aid.
00:30:52.079 --> 00:30:55.519
You know, because it's all about the efficiency.
00:30:55.839 --> 00:31:07.119
So you just give the house to the old man who whose everybody else died and he was only one living there, and they're giving this house, he's not gonna live there alone.
00:31:07.359 --> 00:31:08.000
Right, right.
00:31:08.240 --> 00:31:14.240
You know, so he just moved to the another relative's house in another part of Indonesia and house is abandoned.
00:31:14.480 --> 00:31:15.119
Right.
00:31:15.519 --> 00:31:16.480
You see, it's just a lot of people.
00:31:16.720 --> 00:31:18.960
So just things that don't make that just don't make sense, yeah.
00:31:19.440 --> 00:31:20.079
Exactly.
00:31:20.319 --> 00:31:24.319
I mean, if you work in the field, you see so much of the waste.
00:31:24.559 --> 00:31:24.720
Okay.
00:31:25.119 --> 00:31:28.559
The lack of coordination, top-down intervention.
00:31:28.880 --> 00:31:29.440
Yeah.
00:31:29.759 --> 00:31:30.400
Right.
00:31:31.279 --> 00:31:39.519
So so I knew the the the scars of the people from that incident 10 years ago isn't healing.
00:31:40.480 --> 00:31:51.519
Same in Timo Leste and Istimo, there was a 24 years of internal war and two generations already severely wounded.
00:31:51.839 --> 00:32:00.640
2000 and one uh 1999, there was this big militia killing one-third of population.
00:32:00.880 --> 00:32:01.039
Okay.
00:32:01.359 --> 00:32:08.480
Then 2002 independent, and then wh a lot of money came in, and then many things built up.
00:32:08.799 --> 00:32:14.400
But there was a more domestic violence, you know, there was a gangs.
00:32:14.880 --> 00:32:27.519
So this imbalance of the development, you know, without taking care of their mentality, their trauma, their generational issues.
00:32:27.839 --> 00:32:28.480
Yeah.
00:32:28.960 --> 00:32:29.279
Yeah.
00:32:29.440 --> 00:32:33.519
So I always thought trauma thing was missing from the international aid.
00:32:33.759 --> 00:32:34.799
So so so Dr.
00:32:34.880 --> 00:32:43.200
Braseli went to that region in Japan, and then did you meet him then, or what was your participation in that?
00:32:43.680 --> 00:32:49.440
Um I I met he did a several workshop across Japan then.
00:32:50.000 --> 00:32:59.279
So I went to the one in Yokohama when he visited, and me and my mom and and and my little niece, we all went there and then we did shaking.
00:32:59.440 --> 00:33:00.720
Ah, I was in Kobe.
00:33:00.799 --> 00:33:01.440
Sorry, nothing else.
00:33:01.599 --> 00:33:02.880
Yokohama, it was Kobe.
00:33:03.200 --> 00:33:03.359
Yeah.
00:33:04.000 --> 00:33:05.599
Yeah, then I met him.
00:33:05.839 --> 00:33:09.599
And um, yeah, I was like, wow.
00:33:09.839 --> 00:33:23.359
Yeah, what what what was your initial impression, both because it sounds like you personally practiced it, maybe you had a maybe I I'm curious about that, but then of course you were you probably spoke with him and learned more about his work.
00:33:23.519 --> 00:33:26.079
So yeah, what what what was your impression?
00:33:26.160 --> 00:33:30.160
What what yeah, what happened for you in that initial time period?
00:33:31.119 --> 00:33:40.880
Um so first of all, the whole idea of PRE really appealed to me because it was like a missing piece of my last work.
00:33:41.920 --> 00:33:52.319
You know, you can do it without language, you can do it without education, you can do it in a group, you just it's exercise so simple, anybody, any human can do it.
00:33:52.559 --> 00:33:55.599
It for me was like, wow, this is incredible.
00:33:55.759 --> 00:34:00.480
So my interest was not really about me, but about others.
00:34:00.960 --> 00:34:02.640
How it could be applied so readily.
00:34:03.039 --> 00:34:03.839
Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:34:03.920 --> 00:34:04.240
Yeah.
00:34:04.559 --> 00:34:14.800
So, and then he talked about firefighters, and then he talked about military and and then the PTSD for the military and things like, and I was like, wow, this is it, I want to learn this.
00:34:15.360 --> 00:34:15.599
Cool.
00:34:16.079 --> 00:34:20.719
My body was very happy shaking from day one.
00:34:21.760 --> 00:34:24.000
Yeah, it was very fascinating.
00:34:24.239 --> 00:34:30.400
Yeah, but I was more, I don't know, grabbed by the idea of how can I use this in my work?
00:34:30.719 --> 00:34:34.960
Yeah, you saw the application the need for it and how it could be used so clearly.
00:34:35.039 --> 00:34:35.840
Yeah, exactly.
00:34:36.000 --> 00:34:37.280
Exactly, exactly.
00:34:37.440 --> 00:34:38.000
Yeah, yeah.
00:34:38.159 --> 00:34:43.360
So I'm the first batch in Japan that started learning TRE in 2012.
00:34:43.679 --> 00:34:48.480
How did you be at that time, I imagine there were how how did you become certified?
00:34:48.559 --> 00:34:50.880
Um, I mean, who was did you have to travel for that?
00:34:50.960 --> 00:34:56.639
Or no, there was uh the couple who were teaching um in Japan at the time.
00:34:56.880 --> 00:34:57.599
Oh, okay.
00:34:58.000 --> 00:35:00.880
Yeah, but then there was this uh issue.
00:35:01.760 --> 00:35:09.679
I don't want to say in detail, but there was the issue happened, and then that they were out, and I got in as a trainer.
00:35:10.239 --> 00:35:29.119
Okay, but okay, but you were able to learn in Japan in Japan the the module one, but uh had a little difficulty with this uh trainer, so I went to Thailand and then my my final certified trainer with the John MacDonald that I went to Thailand and learned from her from module two onwards, and I was certified by her.
00:35:29.280 --> 00:35:31.360
Yes, yes, yeah, cool.
00:35:31.599 --> 00:35:32.239
Yeah.
00:35:32.480 --> 00:35:49.920
Then then you know John and I got on really well because she's also interested in the the humanitarian, he was working for the indigenous in Canada, so we were just no expectation, just talking around the how TRE can be used in humanitarian aid.
00:35:50.159 --> 00:35:50.400
Right.
00:35:50.559 --> 00:35:56.960
So I was certified in 2013, and then Nepal earthquake happened in 2015.
00:35:57.440 --> 00:35:57.760
Yeah.
00:35:58.000 --> 00:36:04.480
And then John sent me a message say, where shall I donate the money to in Nepal?
00:36:04.880 --> 00:36:05.199
Right.
00:36:05.360 --> 00:36:05.920
You know?
00:36:06.159 --> 00:36:06.400
Yeah.
00:36:06.800 --> 00:36:10.880
And and I said, without thinking, John, we are going there.
00:36:13.599 --> 00:36:15.119
So that's how it happened.
00:36:15.199 --> 00:36:15.760
The Nepal.
00:36:16.320 --> 00:36:16.800
Wow, okay.
00:36:16.960 --> 00:36:18.800
Yeah, I said, okay, John, we are going there.
00:36:19.039 --> 00:36:22.400
And then at the time I wasn't thinking of quitting job or anything.
00:36:22.559 --> 00:36:27.440
I just thought we have to go there, maybe using some holidays, and then we go there.
00:36:27.679 --> 00:36:28.000
Right.
00:36:28.159 --> 00:36:32.800
But as I was already thinking about leaving that job, right?
00:36:32.960 --> 00:36:36.400
And then the this Nepal thing happened at the same time.
00:36:36.639 --> 00:36:36.960
Yeah.
00:36:37.280 --> 00:36:41.199
And as we are talking, nothing major response, nothing.
00:36:41.280 --> 00:36:45.440
We just personally go there and then teach DRE to people a little bit.
00:36:45.679 --> 00:36:46.000
Okay.
00:36:46.159 --> 00:36:55.920
But then we had this uh invitation from the non-school by the Tsokni Rinpoche from Nepal came.
00:36:56.639 --> 00:37:01.199
The school was inviting us to go there and teach children TRE.
00:37:01.519 --> 00:37:01.840
Okay.
00:37:02.480 --> 00:37:06.639
And that was bigger than why what but bigger than I thought, right?
00:37:06.880 --> 00:37:07.519
Right, right.
00:37:07.679 --> 00:37:08.719
And that was a call.
00:37:08.800 --> 00:37:10.239
I said, okay, I quit.
00:37:10.400 --> 00:37:14.880
I quit everything, I sold everything, boon, I went.
00:37:15.199 --> 00:37:15.519
Okay.
00:37:16.000 --> 00:37:20.559
I was thinking I'm gonna be there for the next five years, ten years, I'm just gonna go.
00:37:20.800 --> 00:37:23.840
So everything was gone, and then boon, I went.
00:37:24.000 --> 00:37:40.559
And I landed, and then I was in school teaching all the little nuns, children, and students, teachers, and then uh Joan joined me afterwards, and we are reaching out to the therapist in Kathmandu.
00:37:40.960 --> 00:37:41.280
Yeah.
00:37:41.440 --> 00:37:49.760
Um, so we started to the training of trainers, not trainer, training of providers who can reach out to the wider community.
00:37:50.000 --> 00:37:54.239
So that's the beginning of our concept of community-based community.
00:37:54.559 --> 00:37:55.679
Community facilitator?
00:37:56.159 --> 00:37:58.159
Yeah, community facilitator model.
00:37:58.639 --> 00:37:58.960
Okay.
00:37:59.679 --> 00:38:06.880
So how in that the time with when uh you and Joan were there, how long was that time period?
00:38:07.840 --> 00:38:12.800
So Joan was there about six months, and I was there for one year.
00:38:14.239 --> 00:38:23.440
Then, funny enough, this issue about the TRE Japan started, and my visa in Nepal wasn't renewed.
00:38:23.679 --> 00:38:26.559
Okay, and I was forced back to Japan.
00:38:26.719 --> 00:38:48.480
Yeah, and I had to start from zero new organization, now we call it TFA Japan, started 2016, and then this is this wasn't something I wanted or expected, because I was always wanted to work in a field in developing countries.
00:38:48.719 --> 00:38:49.280
Right.
00:38:49.440 --> 00:38:52.559
Um, and I sold everything, I didn't have my home anymore.
00:38:53.039 --> 00:39:02.960
After one year, I had to go back to my parents' house, renting a room from my parents, and then starting no job, nothing started disorganization from scratch.
00:39:03.199 --> 00:39:04.239
So that was a bit tough.
00:39:04.480 --> 00:39:04.960
Yeah, yeah.
00:39:05.199 --> 00:39:08.960
But everything was meant to be, you know?
00:39:09.199 --> 00:39:09.840
Yeah.
00:39:10.239 --> 00:39:14.639
But we continuing helping Nepal from remote, right?
00:39:14.800 --> 00:39:21.360
And then went back to Nepal with uh some of the volunteers from TFA joining us, yeah.
00:39:21.679 --> 00:39:29.280
And um with the group of us went out and then reaching out, but it's still a lot of try and error.
00:39:31.519 --> 00:39:36.719
Then I had a friend who is my previous job colleague in Vietnam.
00:39:36.960 --> 00:39:40.639
She reached out to me and said, I think what you're doing is very interesting.
00:39:40.800 --> 00:39:42.320
Can you teach us TRE?
00:39:42.880 --> 00:39:53.360
So she invited me to go to Vietnam, and I started to teaching TRE in Vietnam, and then from there now almost 10 years again.
00:39:53.840 --> 00:40:00.320
Now there is this wonderful community-based uh community facilitator project is happening in Vietnam.
00:40:00.639 --> 00:40:01.199
In Vietnam.
00:40:01.440 --> 00:40:02.239
Yeah, cool.
00:40:02.639 --> 00:40:06.400
So these are the two areas that I wanted to showcase.
00:40:06.719 --> 00:40:08.159
Yeah, wonderful.
00:40:08.480 --> 00:40:10.719
What did you also do some work in Pakistan?
00:40:10.800 --> 00:40:16.800
I mean, I know you supported you supported the development of a of a trainer there ongoing.
00:40:17.440 --> 00:40:23.360
But but do any any any humanitarian type work there or was that a different role?
00:40:23.920 --> 00:40:29.039
No, I am in Pakistan, we are mainly focusing on the therapist right now.
00:40:29.280 --> 00:40:29.519
I see.
00:40:30.079 --> 00:40:32.559
The very professional uh trauma therapist.
00:40:32.800 --> 00:40:33.039
Yeah.
00:40:33.280 --> 00:40:36.880
So from more like a talk therapy, they are learning the body-based method.
00:40:37.039 --> 00:40:47.440
So it's it's kind of another category, but eventually we are hoping we can create some strategy to reach out because TRD is a big hit in Pakistan right now.
00:40:47.679 --> 00:40:49.519
A lot of people are interested.
00:40:50.320 --> 00:40:51.840
The simplicity of it.
00:40:52.079 --> 00:40:52.480
Yeah.
00:40:53.199 --> 00:40:53.920
Amazing.
00:40:54.159 --> 00:40:54.480
Wow.
00:40:54.639 --> 00:41:00.000
Well, okay, so I mean, there's a lot of questions, but maybe here's one question.
00:41:00.159 --> 00:41:09.119
So, you know, Nepal, you had a very long-term engagement, and that was the beginning of a kind of a community facilitation type model.
00:41:09.360 --> 00:41:12.000
And then Vietnam was another major one.
00:41:12.719 --> 00:41:18.639
When you look at those two examples, uh what what do you feel what did you learn?
00:41:18.719 --> 00:41:22.400
Like what what uh what were some of the best ideas?
00:41:22.559 --> 00:41:24.719
Were there any ideas that you've abandoned?
00:41:24.880 --> 00:41:28.719
Like what what what what has been the learning curve from those two projects?
00:41:29.280 --> 00:41:34.079
Yeah, so in in Nepal, um I learned a lot from failure.
00:41:34.880 --> 00:41:42.880
So a group of us international went in to teach Tiari very very very quickly.
00:41:43.119 --> 00:41:43.440
Yeah.
00:41:43.840 --> 00:41:46.239
Like like disaster response way.
00:41:46.480 --> 00:41:47.039
Yeah, yeah.
00:41:47.360 --> 00:41:47.840
Right?
00:41:48.159 --> 00:41:51.119
But after we left, nothing stayed.
00:41:51.360 --> 00:41:51.519
Okay.
00:41:52.079 --> 00:41:54.159
People scattered, they go all over.
00:41:55.039 --> 00:41:56.079
What happened?
00:41:56.400 --> 00:41:56.639
Yeah.
00:41:56.880 --> 00:41:57.440
Right?
00:41:57.679 --> 00:41:58.079
Yeah.
00:41:58.400 --> 00:42:05.360
Um and this is a typical mistake the humanitarian aid makes.
00:42:05.760 --> 00:42:06.320
In general.
00:42:06.480 --> 00:42:07.679
Like this is a common okay.
00:42:08.159 --> 00:42:09.519
In general, in general.
00:42:09.920 --> 00:42:15.039
You do something too too fast or something with no plan beyond the immediate and then it kind of dissipates.
00:42:16.000 --> 00:42:16.239
Okay.
00:42:16.639 --> 00:42:20.320
Yeah, there is no institutional structure to support that.
00:42:20.639 --> 00:42:20.960
Okay.
00:42:22.159 --> 00:42:37.840
So we taught about six community facilitators of the therapist, and three were certified international providership afterwards.
00:42:39.599 --> 00:42:47.119
And then one person only now she continuously taught TRD since then, ten years.
00:42:47.360 --> 00:42:48.480
Her name is Amuna.
00:42:49.119 --> 00:42:49.360
Yeah.
00:42:50.159 --> 00:43:02.400
And she was a a therapist for uh mainly women on the survivor of human trafficking and and uh abuse and things like that.
00:43:02.639 --> 00:43:04.960
So very heavy, heavy cases.
00:43:05.679 --> 00:43:09.519
But she had this insight that TRE can help them.
00:43:10.320 --> 00:43:22.239
And some of the videos she sent us, me John horrified, said don't don't do TRE with this population because it was so severe, the trauma, you know, human trafficking survivors.
00:43:22.639 --> 00:43:23.280
Sure, of course.
00:43:23.440 --> 00:43:23.599
Right.
00:43:24.239 --> 00:43:27.199
I said, don't do it, that's gonna be too much.
00:43:27.519 --> 00:43:31.199
Yeah, but she believed she can hold a space.
00:43:31.599 --> 00:43:34.000
Okay, and she can use TRE.
00:43:34.639 --> 00:43:37.920
So we were just supporting her.
00:43:38.079 --> 00:43:43.920
It was not because of us that she managed, she had the capacity to hold a space for these people.
00:43:44.239 --> 00:43:44.719
I see.
00:43:44.880 --> 00:43:47.920
So she really believed that TRE can help.
00:43:48.400 --> 00:43:54.239
So she was using TRE consistently, regardless of we say yes or no, she just kept going.
00:43:54.559 --> 00:43:55.280
She was gonna do it.
00:43:55.360 --> 00:43:56.400
Well, what what is her name?
00:43:56.639 --> 00:43:57.199
What is her name again?
00:43:57.280 --> 00:43:57.519
I'm sorry.
00:43:59.199 --> 00:44:05.360
She came to Vietnam uh last year and she showcased uh one of the videos.
00:44:05.440 --> 00:44:07.760
Yeah, it was incredible, incredible.
00:44:08.239 --> 00:44:09.840
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:44:10.239 --> 00:44:11.840
So we are still continuing.
00:44:12.000 --> 00:44:13.679
She's in the trainers track now.
00:44:13.840 --> 00:44:15.360
We are supporting her.
00:44:15.760 --> 00:44:21.039
And um, you know, we are not having any funding for it.
00:44:24.079 --> 00:44:27.920
So we are just waiting, supporting.
00:44:28.079 --> 00:44:30.639
When she's ready, she will do it.
00:44:30.800 --> 00:44:31.840
We support her.
00:44:32.000 --> 00:44:34.719
No, supporting doesn't mean financially, right?
00:44:34.880 --> 00:44:43.280
We are just be there for her, and then for her, that is already enough, she said, for her to keep going.
00:44:44.800 --> 00:44:52.000
You know, I am a very busy person, so I am hardly engaging, but I am there for her.
00:44:52.320 --> 00:44:56.239
John is there for her, colleagues in Vietnam is there for her.
00:44:56.400 --> 00:45:05.440
We are supporting her way, the speed, the expansion, you know.
00:45:05.760 --> 00:45:08.800
This is the important thing about community-based development.
00:45:08.960 --> 00:45:10.480
You can bring external money.
00:45:10.639 --> 00:45:15.920
Okay, I give you this money, do it, do more, do fast, right?
00:45:16.400 --> 00:45:19.679
And then local people, they want money anyway.
00:45:20.559 --> 00:45:22.719
You know, we want money too.
00:45:22.960 --> 00:45:30.800
So they always happy to receive, but it doesn't mean it's make the process better, right?
00:45:31.199 --> 00:45:32.400
More sustainable.
00:45:32.880 --> 00:45:37.039
Yeah, it is our ego, and this is our frustration.
00:45:37.199 --> 00:45:41.039
You want to see the result quickly and see in a big scale.
00:45:42.000 --> 00:45:42.559
Yeah.
00:45:44.400 --> 00:45:50.639
So in this humanitarian project, I'm doing it as my my life work.
00:45:51.599 --> 00:45:56.320
Nothing of me, my stake involved, I'm not financially paying for it.
00:45:56.400 --> 00:45:59.199
I am not having any donor to report to.
00:45:59.840 --> 00:46:00.480
You know?
00:46:01.519 --> 00:46:18.400
I feel really liberated to be able to be in this position and then go along, walk along with this group of people who are doing completely with their own will, completely with their own capacity, financially, time, everything.
00:46:18.639 --> 00:46:18.800
Yeah.
00:46:19.039 --> 00:46:22.800
We're just only there to support when she needs help.
00:46:23.039 --> 00:46:23.679
Yeah.
00:46:25.039 --> 00:46:32.079
And I think this is important part of community outreach.
00:46:32.639 --> 00:46:53.920
Well, it sounds to me like one of the key ingredients in the sustainability in Vietnam and Nepal is this idea that if there are, in a sense, key individuals who have the who are who who can be developed, they need to have the the uh the motivation intrinsically.
00:46:54.000 --> 00:47:03.360
They need to be dedicated, ideal uh local, um in it for the long haul, and then they need sufficient mentoring support.
00:47:03.599 --> 00:47:03.760
Yes.
00:47:04.000 --> 00:47:34.159
But but without these people like um this woman who are carrying kind of this uh desire to serve in this way, I mean, external interventions, you know, if they're designed well, may I'm sure there's probably some effectiveness that can happen, but that's totally different than if there's a dedicated uh local person who has the right qualities and the right support to to develop.
00:47:34.880 --> 00:47:36.719
Does that match your your thing?
00:47:37.280 --> 00:47:37.760
Exactly.
00:47:38.000 --> 00:47:39.360
Exactly, exactly.
00:47:39.519 --> 00:47:41.519
It has to come from them, yeah.
00:47:41.920 --> 00:47:43.039
Their desire.
00:47:43.360 --> 00:47:48.480
And a lot of international aid, we bring the issue that they should be working on.
00:47:48.639 --> 00:47:51.280
We tell them you need this, you need to work on this.
00:47:51.519 --> 00:47:51.840
Right.
00:47:52.079 --> 00:47:52.719
Right?
00:47:53.920 --> 00:47:58.639
So that is not gonna be sustainable unless they see it, the value in it.
00:47:58.800 --> 00:47:58.960
Yeah.
00:47:59.199 --> 00:48:01.679
For themselves and then for their community.
00:48:03.280 --> 00:48:03.920
Yeah.
00:48:04.159 --> 00:48:18.000
So do is you know, you're you're you and you can support as many people, and you have, you know, you have your colleagues, and Joan has been a uh a major um partner, and then people have developed.
00:48:18.239 --> 00:48:29.519
Um is this and I imagine you're not, you know, you're you're you're you're I you know hopefully you're still early in your in your career here.
00:48:29.840 --> 00:48:32.719
Um so so you have a lot of time ahead of you.
00:48:33.039 --> 00:48:47.840
But but what would be the prerequisites for this model to start to work in in many places um or to grow besides only you and several others?
00:48:48.079 --> 00:49:03.760
How could this model be how how could other TRE trainers, providers, how how could they learn more of some of these principles in a way that that this could become a more common way of uh evolution?
00:49:04.079 --> 00:49:05.599
What do you think about that?
00:49:06.800 --> 00:49:17.519
You know, up until now, this uh typical uh certification program is not designed for this kind of project, right?
00:49:17.679 --> 00:49:18.880
Not at all, right?
00:49:19.119 --> 00:49:23.199
It's too long, too expensive, too complicated, right?
00:49:23.679 --> 00:49:30.639
So we have to get out of this paradigm from this our standard certification program, right?
00:49:31.360 --> 00:49:48.800
And you know, people who are training other people to be a provider right now, and maybe some people argue with me about it, but mostly they're training people who can afford it.
00:49:49.440 --> 00:49:58.639
Definitely, right which means in in the developing country context, it's a very privileged class of people.
00:49:58.960 --> 00:49:59.119
Right.
00:49:59.280 --> 00:49:59.920
Yeah, exactly.
00:50:00.559 --> 00:50:11.519
Yeah, so it's not so easy to find the local champion that I'm talking about directly from that population.
00:50:12.000 --> 00:50:12.480
Right.
00:50:12.719 --> 00:50:13.039
Okay.
00:50:14.960 --> 00:50:22.719
Um so the question is how are we going to find these dedicated humans at the grassroots?
00:50:24.639 --> 00:50:26.960
That is a most important question.
00:50:27.280 --> 00:50:31.119
Because if we keep targeting the wrong people, wrong layers.
00:50:33.599 --> 00:50:34.320
Yeah, yeah.
00:50:34.800 --> 00:50:42.239
You might put the flag TRE in this country, but it doesn't mean anything.
00:50:43.679 --> 00:50:52.239
It doesn't reach out to the community, the nationals, yeah, the majority of population who need TRE.
00:50:52.480 --> 00:50:52.639
Okay.
00:50:52.880 --> 00:51:01.599
TRE is not about sticking the flag in one country, saying, hey, I have I'm a trainer, I have providers, here we do TRE.
00:51:02.239 --> 00:51:03.039
In my opinion.
00:51:03.360 --> 00:51:04.480
Yeah, I agree.
00:51:04.800 --> 00:51:07.599
I mean, I think, I mean, just brief pausing for a moment.
00:51:07.760 --> 00:51:27.679
I mean, I even here here in the United States where TRE was uh I mean, I'm not sure it was founded here because so much of David's work was international, but nevertheless, he's based here, the not for private, but even here, um, you know, if I had to take an honest appraisal, how well is TRE serving the grassroots?
00:51:27.840 --> 00:51:37.519
I mean, some, there have been some, you know, there were projects in North Carolina after the hurricane that we've worked with um intercity situations around Detroit.
00:51:37.679 --> 00:51:41.840
So some, but but is that but in a truly effective way?
00:51:42.000 --> 00:51:42.800
Not really.
00:51:43.280 --> 00:51:44.480
So, so yeah.
00:51:44.639 --> 00:51:45.920
Um, so I agree with you.
00:51:46.000 --> 00:51:50.800
It's it's it's um yeah, we're not we're not there yet uh in many places.
00:51:50.960 --> 00:51:51.920
Yeah, yeah.
00:51:52.159 --> 00:52:02.480
And then most of us think humanitarian aid is just the response, the disaster response, crisis response, the short term.
00:52:02.960 --> 00:52:04.480
Go in and get out.
00:52:05.679 --> 00:52:14.639
But the reality is TRE cannot grow with that short intervention as a community-based model, right?
00:52:14.800 --> 00:52:15.599
What I was saying.
00:52:16.239 --> 00:52:16.719
You know?
00:52:17.280 --> 00:52:28.079
Of course, there is this uh shock trauma from the military and then the the police, you know, you can just go and then teach TRE and then something will come out from there.
00:52:28.320 --> 00:52:32.880
But it's gonna be better if it's institutionalized, right?
00:52:32.960 --> 00:52:33.679
Right, right.
00:52:33.920 --> 00:52:34.239
Right?
00:52:34.320 --> 00:52:35.760
And that takes time.
00:52:36.000 --> 00:52:36.559
Yeah.
00:52:37.519 --> 00:52:48.079
And and then bringing the leaders out of this institution and continue that providership within that institution is very rare.
00:52:50.320 --> 00:53:07.519
So it's the same way in the community, this individual alone cannot do a lot, but if there is a the several other community facilitators working together in the community level, it can spread.
00:53:07.599 --> 00:53:12.159
And TRE is beautifully designed, it works for the community, it works for the groups.
00:53:13.039 --> 00:53:13.360
Right?
00:53:13.519 --> 00:53:16.880
It's not one-to-one clinical intervention.
00:53:17.199 --> 00:53:17.519
Right.
00:53:17.760 --> 00:53:28.400
So that's why I believed that community setting has even more powerful than clinical setting in TRE.
00:53:29.119 --> 00:53:40.000
One example, um Jun, the the trainer in Vietnam, uh, we started this disability project in Vietnam.
00:53:40.159 --> 00:53:47.360
It was 2018, 19, I think, the time.
00:53:48.079 --> 00:53:54.639
Uh one of our common colleagues, uh Brian, also went there, you know, to support the project, the initial.
00:53:55.199 --> 00:54:04.719
Um so we targeted, I think it's about 20, 10 male, 10 female people with disability.
00:54:05.519 --> 00:54:20.880
Many uh people with disability in Vietnam was from the war, war veterans, okay, uh, amputation, also the the agent orange, so it's more like a neurological uh disability damage, right?
00:54:21.119 --> 00:54:24.159
Um, so it's kind of quite severe group.
00:54:24.480 --> 00:54:31.440
Um and also elderly as well, they are, you know, they're already over 70s.
00:54:32.239 --> 00:54:42.880
So we went out and then start working with the group, we modify the exercise, whatever they can do to tire these muscles that we are targeting.
00:54:43.199 --> 00:54:46.480
We didn't uh teach the standard exercise because they can't do it.
00:54:46.800 --> 00:54:47.920
Sure, sure, sure, sure.
00:54:48.159 --> 00:54:56.559
So they started to innovate among themselves the exercise that we suit to their own bodies, and everybody shook.
00:54:59.039 --> 00:55:00.719
Even people without legs.
00:55:00.960 --> 00:55:01.760
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:55:01.840 --> 00:55:02.400
Very cool.
00:55:02.559 --> 00:55:02.880
Yeah.
00:55:03.039 --> 00:55:03.519
Yeah.
00:55:03.760 --> 00:55:04.079
Yeah.
00:55:04.400 --> 00:55:08.400
So we went back, I think about eight times over three months.
00:55:09.280 --> 00:55:16.800
And then also we're giving them uh homework as a group to shake together regularly.
00:55:19.360 --> 00:55:22.320
Then what happened after three months?
00:55:22.559 --> 00:55:30.639
The guy with a fountain pain for 40 years since the end of the war, he could get up on the wheelchair by himself.
00:55:30.800 --> 00:55:32.400
He didn't need to be carried.
00:55:32.639 --> 00:55:38.719
And because of this pain, he had a depression for 30 years, it was gone.
00:55:38.960 --> 00:55:39.280
Wow.
00:55:39.519 --> 00:55:55.840
He could move, he can mobilize himself, he could use his wheelchair to go to the market, he can start selling the lottery ticket, he can have some money, he feels he's a useful human being, his self-esteem went up, he connected with other guys with a disability.
00:55:55.920 --> 00:56:00.400
We they share the same painful stories, you know.
00:56:00.719 --> 00:56:07.280
Share the the the encouragement, all this, it happened in three months.
00:56:07.599 --> 00:56:08.239
Wow.
00:56:09.039 --> 00:56:11.760
That was incredible, incredible change.
00:56:11.920 --> 00:56:16.079
I was only there two to two over maybe two times.
00:56:16.719 --> 00:56:20.639
The first part, and then the ending part.
00:56:21.280 --> 00:56:23.679
But the change was incredible.
00:56:23.920 --> 00:56:31.440
And and this person said, We wanted to showcase this project in um Ministry of Health in Hanoi.
00:56:32.000 --> 00:56:36.000
So I said, okay, we're going to Hanoi, talk to the government, show our our result.
00:56:36.480 --> 00:56:39.599
And this guy, three months ago, he didn't want to leave his home.
00:56:39.920 --> 00:56:41.920
Said, I'm gonna come with you.
00:56:42.800 --> 00:56:46.000
I want to talk to the people, the government people.
00:56:46.320 --> 00:56:49.519
Can you imagine the level of self-esteem?
00:56:49.840 --> 00:56:57.360
So the group of us went to Hanoi, hit the government building, and then they all share their stories, their experience.
00:56:57.599 --> 00:57:01.840
They're asking government to help people with disability more.
00:57:01.920 --> 00:57:09.920
So all this um change happened because of the community uh connection.
00:57:10.079 --> 00:57:20.400
This is a ventral vagal connection with the TRE, the releasing, the tension from the body, the phantom pain disappearing, and all this.
00:57:21.039 --> 00:57:29.280
So I saw this first hand, you know the power of TRE and power of community working together.
00:57:30.320 --> 00:57:36.400
So so from this onwards, Yun, she totally dedicated to teach TR.
00:57:36.639 --> 00:57:45.599
She also left NGO, good pay job, and doing this with uh very uh humble uh living.
00:57:45.920 --> 00:57:46.960
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:57:47.199 --> 00:58:00.719
Yeah, but she's she said in NGO I was doing uh work, uh it was good work, but she didn't see as much direct impact to people's life.
00:58:01.360 --> 00:58:02.559
Like in TRE.
00:58:03.440 --> 00:58:04.079
Wow.
00:58:05.440 --> 00:58:05.679
Yeah.
00:58:06.639 --> 00:58:07.280
Wow.
00:58:09.280 --> 00:58:16.639
So are there any so so if we were going to extract I mean you've already shared some principles.
00:58:16.719 --> 00:58:21.039
It's about the long term, it's around on the ground people who are motivated.
00:58:21.119 --> 00:58:35.360
Um fine, not not if you stop at the the layer of the population that can afford uh a standard certification training, you're probably not going to connect with the kinds of people who will become community leaders.
00:58:35.760 --> 00:58:38.480
Um I'm kind of hearing some of these ideas.
00:58:38.559 --> 00:58:45.920
So but if we were going to sort of summarize, I don't know, I guess some of the key principles or concepts.
00:58:46.079 --> 00:59:16.000
If if if if other TRE providers, listeners, TRE pre people who just are, you know, who that who are the people who listen to this podcast, if if if if if we were going to distill some of your thinking of how this could uh this this type this types of approach could start to gain more traction, how would you, yeah, what I do how would you inspire people to start to to follow in this direction?
00:59:17.679 --> 00:59:19.920
I don't have like perfect answer, right?
00:59:20.079 --> 00:59:27.840
Because I am still in the way, try to continue and become more successful.
00:59:28.480 --> 00:59:52.480
Um but two individuals, Nepal and and Vietnam, what common is that they both have passion and expertise in the humanitarian support and have an institutional background previously, and now they set up their own organization, and some connection to the government.
00:59:52.960 --> 00:59:55.599
Okay, wait, just uh this just to double check.
00:59:55.679 --> 01:00:08.480
So you're saying that the the people who became the key leaders, champions, champions in Vietnam and in Nepal, they had an institutional background and some connection to the government.
01:00:08.719 --> 01:00:08.960
Yes.
01:00:09.119 --> 01:00:14.159
These were these seem to be useful ingredients for what you're describing.
01:00:14.320 --> 01:00:14.559
Okay?
01:00:14.800 --> 01:00:15.119
Yes.
01:00:15.280 --> 01:00:15.440
Okay.
01:00:15.760 --> 01:00:18.559
Because they both worked from international NGO.
01:00:18.800 --> 01:00:18.960
Yeah.
01:00:19.199 --> 01:00:22.239
So they have this international framework thinking.
01:00:22.559 --> 01:00:22.880
Okay.
01:00:23.280 --> 01:00:27.840
And they understand the aid principle from within and from outside.
01:00:28.400 --> 01:00:28.960
Right?
01:00:29.199 --> 01:00:29.519
Yeah.
01:00:29.679 --> 01:00:34.400
But they choose to be grassroots for for their own principle.
01:00:34.800 --> 01:00:35.119
Okay.
01:00:36.800 --> 01:00:40.320
But from previous work, they have a connection.
01:00:41.679 --> 01:00:45.280
For example, in Vietnam, she had a connection in the Ministry of Health.
01:00:45.440 --> 01:00:48.239
She had a connection with Ministry of Disaster Management.
01:00:48.559 --> 01:00:56.159
So whatever she's doing very small scale, she could communicate that to the bigger stakeholders.
01:00:58.239 --> 01:01:10.800
And started getting more and more genuine interest, domestic interest, because everything has to be fostered domestically.
01:01:12.079 --> 01:01:20.480
International support can ignite that beginning, but it cannot continue sustainably.
01:01:22.559 --> 01:01:32.880
So she started with our support, but now she's creating her own connection domestically, and that is supporting her initiative.
01:01:34.000 --> 01:01:42.400
So we as international trainers, of course, we have a huge enthusiasm to help the world.
01:01:42.880 --> 01:01:46.079
But what we can do is actually so little.
01:01:57.840 --> 01:02:06.800
If you're committed to be engaged with the same group of people over 10 years, even your your contact with them is very small.
01:02:07.920 --> 01:02:12.079
Maybe you only go there once in a year, once in a couple of years.
01:02:26.239 --> 01:02:26.800
I see.
01:02:27.199 --> 01:02:31.840
It's it's an expectation we we create from outside.
01:02:32.159 --> 01:02:32.639
Yeah.
01:02:32.880 --> 01:02:36.159
You know, you just like we want to do this big thing.
01:02:36.400 --> 01:02:37.039
Yeah.
01:02:37.440 --> 01:02:39.360
But I think it's a false expectation.
01:02:40.079 --> 01:02:41.360
It takes takes takes time.
01:02:41.519 --> 01:02:41.760
Yeah.
01:02:42.000 --> 01:02:42.639
Yeah.
01:02:43.280 --> 01:02:49.360
I'm not denying other people get a big project from corporate, then boom, they do big job.
01:02:49.519 --> 01:02:50.639
I think that's wonderful.
01:02:50.800 --> 01:02:52.719
Anything is better than nothing.
01:02:53.599 --> 01:02:54.239
You know?
01:02:54.480 --> 01:03:00.639
But my interest and my expertise is really fostering that community initiative.
01:03:01.280 --> 01:03:01.920
Right.
01:03:02.639 --> 01:03:07.039
And they eventually reach out to the people who cannot even pay a dollar.
01:03:07.599 --> 01:03:08.239
Right.
01:03:08.800 --> 01:03:15.920
Do you do you think that there's a um, and I I hear what you just said, all all it's all good.
01:03:16.000 --> 01:03:18.639
All is better than all is better than nothing.
01:03:18.960 --> 01:03:24.800
But you have a particular lane that feels most impactful from your from your experience.
01:03:24.880 --> 01:03:28.159
So and the population that I'm interested in reaching.
01:03:28.559 --> 01:03:29.599
In reaching, getting to.
01:03:29.760 --> 01:03:31.039
But so here's my question for you.
01:03:31.199 --> 01:03:44.480
Do do you feel that there's there is there a place, do you do um in terms of more, I'm wondering if there's is there room for any sort of um a both and or a hybrid approach?
01:03:44.559 --> 01:03:59.679
And what I mean is for in the more immediate term types of disaster responses, uh, you know, um, you know, we're at a a new phase in TRE for all and um with some new governance and things like that.
01:03:59.920 --> 01:04:10.400
If you and something that, you know, us as trainers and a provider, everybody, we've we've all of us have felt we would love to be have more effective responses.
01:04:10.559 --> 01:04:14.559
And sometimes projects emerge that do that respond.
01:04:14.960 --> 01:04:22.719
So it's not as though nothing happens, but many of us feel it could be more it could be more supported, it could be more organized.
01:04:22.880 --> 01:04:24.880
You know, there's room for being better.
01:04:24.960 --> 01:04:26.719
That's that's no question about it.
01:04:26.960 --> 01:05:06.639
So my question for you, if we if like if we look out over, say, the next 10 years, as hopefully you know, TRE as a modality in all disciplines becomes more and more useful and effective and et cetera, could there be a s could there be a model where collective where we where we do do some uh short-term types of disaster responses more effectively, but but with an idea towards developing into something that carries more into the direction that the the long-term kinds of infrastructure.
01:05:07.119 --> 01:05:11.119
Could could could could could that be linked together, do you think?
01:05:11.760 --> 01:05:12.960
Um definitely.
01:05:13.360 --> 01:05:17.280
For example, like just look at the US, you know, it's it's huge.
01:05:17.519 --> 01:05:21.440
There is a huge population need to be served, right?
01:05:21.599 --> 01:05:21.760
Right.
01:05:21.920 --> 01:05:29.119
And there is a lot of small institutions that specializing in a certain population who need support.
01:05:29.360 --> 01:05:39.280
So I think institutional link is definitely um very important because individual they disappear, right?
01:05:39.760 --> 01:05:50.960
So if you if the TFA or TRE community can find the institution, it doesn't have to be massive, you know, the city base is enough, right?
01:05:52.000 --> 01:05:58.639
And we support this uh agency based program for those institution based.
01:05:59.119 --> 01:05:59.280
Yeah.
01:06:00.159 --> 01:06:02.079
Within their range of work.
01:06:02.400 --> 01:06:03.039
Yeah.
01:06:03.599 --> 01:06:06.079
And then ongoing support.
01:06:06.239 --> 01:06:08.320
I wouldn't call it supervision even.
01:06:08.639 --> 01:06:09.360
Right, right.
01:06:09.599 --> 01:06:09.840
Right.
01:06:10.079 --> 01:06:10.320
Support.
01:06:10.559 --> 01:06:19.199
For example, I am starting now the the supporting the survivor of uh sexual violence and then the domestic violence in Japan.
01:06:19.920 --> 01:06:21.360
It's a group of women.
01:06:21.599 --> 01:06:24.880
They they have their own group to support them.
01:06:24.960 --> 01:06:26.480
It's a peer support group.
01:06:27.199 --> 01:06:33.760
So we go there, we teach TRE, we wait until they they think they can manage it, you know.
01:06:35.760 --> 01:06:39.519
Then afterwards, we are just remotely supporting them.
01:06:39.679 --> 01:06:40.000
Yeah.
01:06:40.159 --> 01:06:41.679
And they support each other.
01:06:41.840 --> 01:06:44.639
It's a peer community, peer support community.
01:06:45.199 --> 01:06:50.159
But I want to see, you know, it's a very sensitive population.
01:06:50.400 --> 01:06:56.239
Sometimes, you know, they have this um in incompatibility with TRE.
01:06:56.320 --> 01:07:02.880
You know, they have very strong reaction after TRE, flat rate association, and then no, you know, retraumatization.
01:07:02.960 --> 01:07:06.079
So we are a little bit scared of this uh group of population.
01:07:06.400 --> 01:07:14.960
But I want to see if the peer group is working well, TRE's original intention may work in this community.
01:07:15.280 --> 01:07:27.119
So I just want to try it and see how we can support this peer community, peer support group from a little distance, but they continue to serve themselves.
01:07:27.360 --> 01:07:32.800
Eventually, there will be a community facilitator being born, I don't know yet.
01:07:33.199 --> 01:07:35.840
But then they can reach out to the new members.
01:07:38.000 --> 01:07:38.559
Right?
01:07:38.960 --> 01:07:39.280
Yeah.
01:07:40.559 --> 01:07:47.119
Um I think this is the way I think someone must be doing it.
01:07:47.280 --> 01:07:48.400
I just don't know it.
01:07:48.880 --> 01:07:49.280
Yeah.
01:07:51.440 --> 01:07:53.920
But there is no shortcut.
01:07:56.400 --> 01:08:00.880
It's it's it's a trauma healing require decades.
01:08:00.960 --> 01:08:03.039
That's how we teach in our program, right?
01:08:03.199 --> 01:08:03.440
Right.
01:08:04.079 --> 01:08:07.840
There's no shortcut, there is no magic wand.
01:08:09.199 --> 01:08:09.840
Yeah.
01:08:10.559 --> 01:08:14.880
Takes time, yeah, takes often time, takes a solid community.
01:08:15.119 --> 01:08:15.599
Yeah.
01:08:16.079 --> 01:08:16.479
Yeah.
01:08:17.119 --> 01:08:21.680
So supporting the group as a whole rather than individuals.
01:08:22.800 --> 01:08:23.760
And that's the key.
01:08:23.840 --> 01:08:27.600
And of course it's our relationship with these people is the key.
01:08:27.840 --> 01:08:28.159
Yeah.
01:08:29.119 --> 01:08:33.039
They trust in us that we're not gonna abandon them.
01:08:35.600 --> 01:08:37.359
That that is so important.
01:08:38.399 --> 01:08:44.159
Whenever they need support, they can come back to us for whatever.
01:08:44.479 --> 01:08:44.800
Yeah.
01:08:45.039 --> 01:08:50.560
I I I mean, uh I I liked how you said it's not I don't even call it supervision, I call it support.
01:08:50.800 --> 01:08:52.239
Um I I I like that.
01:08:52.560 --> 01:09:05.359
It's a subtlety in a way, but you know, the term supervision comes, you know, from a therapy model, uh, uh and you know, a psychotherapy model, and vi it's it's an appropriate word, and sometimes it means exactly what it does.
01:09:05.600 --> 01:09:11.119
Um but uh I appreciate the idea, you know, there's you know, even from Dr.
01:09:11.199 --> 01:09:23.840
Briselli himself, a little bit of a uh a move away from let's let's not let's not try to have all of our uh anchor our methodology uh as a as a psychotherapy.
01:09:24.159 --> 01:09:32.640
It could be in theory, but that's that has that but but it but it might be more effective not to uh um always link it into that.
01:09:33.039 --> 01:09:35.279
Um yeah, yeah.
01:09:35.439 --> 01:09:37.039
So I just was thinking about that.
01:09:37.199 --> 01:09:37.920
Yeah, I agree.
01:09:38.000 --> 01:09:41.840
I think there's there's a time and a place for that word, but not all settings.
01:09:41.920 --> 01:09:42.880
It's not appropriate.
01:09:43.199 --> 01:09:47.039
Yeah, it's like uh presence is their shadow at the background.
01:09:47.279 --> 01:09:47.760
Yeah.
01:09:48.000 --> 01:09:51.439
You know, they know the ownership is is theirs.
01:09:51.840 --> 01:09:52.640
Theirs.
01:09:53.520 --> 01:09:56.640
And they are responsible, accountable for each other.
01:09:56.880 --> 01:09:57.199
Yeah.
01:09:57.600 --> 01:09:59.760
It's not me, it's not us.
01:10:00.000 --> 01:10:07.840
Yeah, but if there is a trouble, they can always access that support from us.
01:10:08.159 --> 01:10:15.359
And that knowing is already big enough encouragement for them to keep going with their own activity.
01:10:18.000 --> 01:10:18.560
Cool.
01:10:19.279 --> 01:10:50.239
Well, Cy, I wonder if maybe um just you know, kind of a closing topic could be I'm curious, just if you think about yourself personally and you say look forward five or ten years or or longer, whatever time frame you want to look at, but if you kind of look ahead, do you have any um of I don't I don't know if I would use the term goals or a vision or uh uh what what where do you hope you this path continues to take you?
01:10:52.239 --> 01:11:02.000
You know, as far as my humanitarian um career is concerned, I feel it's finished.
01:11:02.880 --> 01:11:03.199
Okay.
01:11:03.760 --> 01:11:05.680
As as as an occupation.
01:11:06.079 --> 01:11:06.880
Okay, okay.
01:11:07.199 --> 01:11:07.359
Yeah.
01:11:07.680 --> 01:11:12.560
I'm living with that experience, but I am not doing it to to live.
01:11:12.960 --> 01:11:15.279
Okay, and I like that.
01:11:15.439 --> 01:11:23.359
I'm very comfortable with that position because I I have a knowledge, I have experience, I can advise people.
01:11:23.840 --> 01:11:24.159
Yeah.
01:11:24.640 --> 01:11:28.319
But I am not doing it directly hands-on like before.
01:11:28.880 --> 01:11:32.960
Because I believe that ownership is not mine, it's them.
01:11:34.079 --> 01:11:39.840
So whoever reach out to me and want to start something, I'm happy to give a support.
01:11:40.319 --> 01:11:44.960
But I am not thinking that career development along this line at all.
01:11:45.199 --> 01:11:45.359
Okay.
01:11:45.600 --> 01:11:47.840
I think I've already done enough hard work.
01:11:48.880 --> 01:11:49.439
Yeah.
01:11:49.680 --> 01:12:05.840
So yeah, so I am kind of um working on other element uh right now, which is um personal development path, and also um I I love being a trainer.
01:12:06.079 --> 01:12:10.560
I mean, I've been doing this the train, I have been a trainer all my career almost.
01:12:10.960 --> 01:12:16.319
So just another modality to teach, and then the more I teach, deeper it became now.
01:12:16.399 --> 01:12:29.520
So I really enjoy doing uh certification training, and um my style is always small, is better, so I only do like very small groups, but I do 100% supervisions.
01:12:29.920 --> 01:12:47.119
Um I also really enjoy being a provider as well, and and I am developing uh a certain intervention techniques, which is more working with a more subtle body rather than directly on the physical body.
01:12:47.359 --> 01:12:51.840
So there's a many new elements I'm really enjoying developing right now.
01:12:52.239 --> 01:12:55.840
And I am also developing my past as a meditator.
01:12:56.640 --> 01:13:06.800
Um, I am working, um uh I am teaching and facilitating tantra, which is completely another realm to the humanitarian work.
01:13:06.960 --> 01:13:18.479
But yeah, it's for me, it's all connected, it's about humanity and about expanding our energy, not to be stuck in this, you know, trauma, right?
01:13:18.720 --> 01:13:24.800
The sexual trauma, you know, relational trauma, all this release and expansion.
01:13:24.960 --> 01:13:39.119
This I I do that with a workshop with combination with uh with a meditation, breathing, TRE, uh, understanding uh of Tantra, all this it's coming to me now as a main interest.
01:13:39.760 --> 01:13:41.680
I'm doing the couples work.
01:13:42.239 --> 01:13:44.319
Um yeah.
01:13:44.640 --> 01:13:47.119
So wonderful, diverse.
01:13:47.279 --> 01:13:47.680
Yeah.
01:13:48.000 --> 01:13:48.319
Cool.
01:13:48.479 --> 01:13:49.520
Well, well, all right.
01:13:49.600 --> 01:14:12.560
Well, then I would like to invite you when you're ready, we'll take a little breather, but uh at some point, let's let's do another conversation because I at some at some future time, um, some of those things, you know, TRE and Tantra would be, I haven't, that's not a topic that I've explored in the podcast, or what you're referring to as some kind of uh the subtle body interventions.
01:14:12.720 --> 01:14:15.119
Um all of that would be would be cool.
01:14:15.199 --> 01:14:18.239
So so can I can can we can we do a future conversation?
01:14:18.880 --> 01:14:22.800
I'm doing the first uh workshop for uh TRE for couples.
01:14:23.199 --> 01:14:30.319
Uh well, in in principle, combination TRE and tantric approach uh July 20th in Japan.
01:14:30.640 --> 01:14:31.279
Oh wonderful.
01:14:31.439 --> 01:14:31.680
Yeah.
01:14:31.920 --> 01:14:36.000
So the coming up in July in Japan, in Tokyo, or where where will it be?
01:14:36.399 --> 01:14:37.279
Yeah, wonderful.
01:14:37.760 --> 01:14:38.319
Oh, cool.
01:14:38.479 --> 01:14:40.000
Yes, very cool.
01:14:40.399 --> 01:14:54.079
Uh well, Sai, this has been really informative and so interesting just to hear that you, you know, the the the how your path unfolded and then what basically what you've learned through all that of experience.
01:14:54.239 --> 01:14:56.720
So really, really interesting to hear all of that.
01:14:56.880 --> 01:14:58.319
Do you feel that we missed anything?
01:14:58.399 --> 01:15:05.840
Is there something is there something that's left unsaid or that that we're just I can talk about things forever.
01:15:05.920 --> 01:15:07.119
I love talking.
01:15:07.840 --> 01:15:08.399
Right.
01:15:08.720 --> 01:15:14.239
You know, so yeah, today should be enough, and maybe you know, it's another topic, and another day will be wonderful.
01:15:14.560 --> 01:15:15.039
Another time.
01:15:15.199 --> 01:15:16.560
Yeah, that sounds good.
01:15:16.800 --> 01:15:18.800
All right, well, Cy, thank you so much.
01:15:18.880 --> 01:15:19.520
I appreciate you.
01:15:20.000 --> 01:15:20.239
Thank you.
01:15:20.720 --> 01:15:22.560
Thank you so much for listening.
01:15:22.720 --> 01:15:27.439
Oh my very good.
01:15:29.279 --> 01:15:31.279
That's it for today's episode.
01:15:31.439 --> 01:15:36.399
We hope you found inspiration and new insights into the power of neurogenic drawing.
01:15:36.640 --> 01:15:41.600
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01:15:41.760 --> 01:15:46.079
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01:15:46.319 --> 01:15:57.039
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