Episode #018: From Apprentice to Mentor (Andrew Kessler)

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Winning the negotiation is not, I made 10 great points, you made one not good point, I win.
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Give me my deal.
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It doesn't work that way, right?
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Even if it's true, even if you feel like maybe it should, because ultimately you still need to come to an agreement and convince the other side to do to do the deal with you that you want to do and that and that they're willing to do.
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So so again, winning is having some finding agreement that works for both.
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Welcome to Negotiation Warriors.
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I am Cliff Stein, and I am on a never-ending quest to learn what it takes to be a great negotiator.
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In every episode, I will sit down with some of the greatest negotiators in professional sports who will share insights, knowledge, and develop on their real life negotiations.
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Negotiation Warriors is sponsored by Front Office 360.
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Premium and talk to where to find out how we are helping college athletic programs.
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Go to frontoffice360.com to schedule a demo.
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Welcome back to Negotiation Warriors, the podcast that features conversations with the greatest negotiators in professional sports.
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I am your host, Cliff Stein.
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Today on Negotiation Warriors, we are joined by NFL agent Andrew Kessler of Athletes First.
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Andrew has been an NFL PA certified contract advisor for two decades and has been part of negotiating over a billion dollars in contracts.
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Early in his career, he worked on some of the landmark quarterback deals, such as Peyton Manning and Eli Manning.
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And recently, he's negotiated the contract for Green Bay Packers quarterback Jordan Love, and he's also the agent for Colts quarterback Daniel Jones.
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Andrew comes from a sports law family.
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His father, Jeffrey Kessler, is one of the most prominent antitrust lawyers in the country in all sports.
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Andrew has built his own reputation as a trusted advisor for numerous NFL players throughout their careers.
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And he is also one of the most respected NFL agents by front offices.
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He serves as a mentor for other agents, even one of the most successful agents in the NFL.
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Today we're going to go inside the brilliant mind of an agent who negotiates big deals and also maintains strong relationships with NFL teams.
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Andrew, welcome to Negotiation Warriors.
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Pleasure to be here.
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Thanks, Cliff.
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Looking forward to some good good chats.
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Good to see you.
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It's been a lot of years.
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I've enjoyed getting to know you over the years.
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But before I even get to that, going back, like how did you start your career into sports?
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I know you did some stuff in basketball.
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Yeah, I star I star I started my career in sports.
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I realized probably around 12-13 um working with players was something that I wanted to do.
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You mentioned my dad and his background, so I had exposure to the unions in basketball and football specifically at that age in a lot of players' rights issue, and even directly, you know, to some players.
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I got to watch the Freeman McNeil trial for NFL players to get free agency as a young kid.
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And sat next to Gene Upshaw during, you know, a bunch of it, which is obviously at the time I knew it was cool and in hindsight, you know, even how much cooler that is and how unique it was.
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So I realized I wanted to work with players at a pretty young age, knew probably my limitations as an athlete myself would be high school, and I played Division III college football at Pomona College.
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So I knew that was going to end relatively early on on the playing side, aside from uh weekend warrior type stuff.
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So I and I interned at the NBPA, the Basketball Players Association, right when I graduated, um, my last two years, summers after junior and senior year of high school.
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And then in college, I interned with a basketball agent named Mark Fleischer, who was a great, great guy.
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And he was based out of Connecticut, and I grew up in New York City, so I could I could drive there.
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I was home for the summer from college.
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And uh and then once I graduated undergrad, I got so fortunate to get the opportunity to work full-time with Tom Condon, uh, who I had known a little bit growing up, not a ton, but certainly someone uh my dad always spoke extremely highly of.
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And he connected me with Tom.
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Tom was fortunately, coincidentally, looking to hire someone kind of in a junior apprenticeship type role.
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He hired me, uh, and I worked with Tom uh for about a year and a half until I went to law school.
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I went to law school at the University of Texas, kept working for Tom during law school the best I could.
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So more the second and third year than the first year.
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Texas at that time, not too dissimilar to now, but you know, had one of the best football teams in the country.
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They're really good in my three years, lost four games.
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It was uh Vince's last two years, national title, Colts' first year.
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So just really good team, loaded up with talent, got to know some of the players there pretty well, wound up representing a bunch of them over their career at different points.
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And uh then when I graduated law school, I went back with Tom, decided Tom at that point was had moved from Kansas City to St.
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Louis, Missouri, had gone from IMG to CIA, and I then got a really good opportunity to come with athletes first, which had only been going on for you know a number of years, but it really started in 2001, so this is 2007 now, to come out and work with Brian Murphy and Dave Dunn, you know, something which really really looked like it could grow.
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And I did like the idea of living back in in Southern California, and and I've been there ever since, really since the beginning of 2008 uh in my role and been fortunate to do a lot of deals, work with a lot of awesome people.
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You know, some people who were at A1 the day I got there are still there, and I was working with them this morning before we got on the phone, and then there are a lot of new people uh who've come in over the time.
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Some have been there for a while, some are newer, it's been really great.
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And uh, you know, I'm I'm fortunate that uh after 20 years I I still get to do what I want to do and and hopefully do it do it pretty well.
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Wow.
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Your story, okay, so many things that I want to follow up on.
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One is I don't know a lot of people knew you were college football player.
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Division three, yes.
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I don't care.
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So was uh so so was the offensive lineman who starts for the Denver Broncos, right?
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That's true, that's true.
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But you all right, so quarterback?
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I was a quarterback in high school and I had these really small little hands here, so I had to play safety in college because those little hands kind of limited my my arm strength a bit.
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But yeah, kind of an option quarterback in high school, and then I played safety in college.
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All right.
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Awesome.
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Got a good perspective on the game.
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I'm also gonna ask you, not right, uh you just mentioned the legendary name to me, Tom Condon.
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I'm gonna circle back to that.
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Before I do, and I'm sure you talk about look, it's I'm sure you have to talk about your dad a lot, which you know there's no way around it, he's super famous.
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But what was that like growing up?
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Was there an expectation?
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You had so much exposure to the sports world, some of the things you just said.
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Was there an expectation that you would become a sports lawyer?
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No, my dad is super good with that.
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My dad always like, do what you want to do, do what inter interests you, and I will, you know, reasonably help you however I can.
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But I never felt any any pressure to do it or anything specifically like that.
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It was something that I wanted to do.
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And in fact, I did go to law school, but had no desire to practice law.
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Uh and my dad never said to me, Well, if you're going to law school, maybe you should practice law a bit, because he he loves practicing law.
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That's his career, obviously, sports stuff and non-sports stuff.
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Um no, so there wasn't any pressure, but he's obviously, you know, as amazing a resource as as I could think of.
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We've gotten to legitimately work on some different things over the years, um, you know, with my clients or players athletes first represents, um, you know, in his work for the Players Association.
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Um, so he's a tremendous resource, super supportive, unbelievably helpful, but never any particular pressure you have to do this.
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And was something that I always like, I was never going to try to hide from that or like act like my dad's not my dad because I'm super proud of my dad and you know would never feel any different.
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I don't lead with it.
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Like if I sit down talking to a prospective client for the first time, it I it it it may come up, or certainly my background will come up, but it's not something that I that I open up with or lead with.
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And again, I feel like you know, I can stand on my own two feet or help I can after all this time.
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So I think, you know, when it naturally works itself in and is useful, or again, things you know, we've got been helpful with, like he did the uh, you know, the house settlement, which shaped the current college landscape with the current Rev share system.
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Two of the named plaintiffs in that case, the cases that got combined were two of my clients, Chuba Hubbard and Dwayne Carter.
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And uh, you know, I worked with him to to try to identify some guys who'd be one who would be wonderful, a uh wonderful plaintiffs form this year.
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The class rep this year for the house case is uh is one of my clients in this draft, uh, QB and Miller Moss.
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So, like, you know, it's been fun to get to work on different stuff.
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And then obviously, you know, we had some stuff directly, like when I came up, this is going back to the the Hutchinson poison pill contract, which is 20 years ago now, which is crazy.
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That was my idea and was challenged directly by the league.
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And you know, that that he directly defended for the PA and we won it.
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So there's been some stuff very direct and intertwined, some stuff a little more tangential.
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But uh, yeah, I mean I it's it's um it's it's awesome to have my dad as my dad.
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I can't say it any other way.
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Yeah, that's amazing.
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It made me think of so I do some work with college front offices now in athletic departments, and we get in these discussions about well, I don't know if that will comply with a house settlement, and I don't know if that's within the terms or the intent.
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And then you know, if you were there, you know, you could just say, Dad, what's up here?
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Like that's amazing the access you have.
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I I've asked some questions sometimes, some ideas I have.
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And as you know, the um use this used to be able to be more creative with NFL contracts and the CBA.
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There's still some stuff you can do, but uh obviously the change in the rookie system then you know changed all that and uh particular language to not allow you to do a poison pill.
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So there's some of the creativity has has been taken away over the years as the parties agreed to it, but certainly there's still stuff that comes up, and yeah, it's it's a pretty it's a pretty good resource.
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I I can't uh can't say it any other way.
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I'm gonna pause you on that point because I teach the art of the player contract negotiation in at Northwestern and Miami law schools, and you mentioned poison pill.
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I think that's really a good education piece here.
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If you could just like just a really short explanation of of what that was.
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So what that was was, and actually it brings us back to uh the transition tag and the seldom used tag.
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So um Steve Hutchinson was uh was Tom Condon's client in 2006.
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He was a first round pick out of Michigan and uh hands down the uh the best guard in the NFL.
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I mean, he he was he was uh just you know the clear guy, as you know at times, sometimes at a position, it's debatable, you know, who the guy is, right?
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And then sometimes it's clear like he's the guy, right?
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So he was he he was the guy at guard.
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And uh his five-year rookie deal with the Seahawks expired.
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Tom's argument was he should be paid at that time pretty much like a starting left tackle because he's that good.
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And their view was no, he should be paid like a right tackle.
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And they went back and forth on it, and they said, you know what?
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If you can get left tackle type money, we'll pay it.
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We just don't think that's the market.
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So instead of doing the franchise tag, they did the transition tag, which is 500 grand less at the time.
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And we went on the market.
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Every, not every, but you know, 10 teams were interested.
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But everyone's like, whatever we do, they're gonna match, they're gonna match, they're gonna match.
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And uh I said, Well, I have an idea that might make it impossible for them to match, and therefore would draw out the best offer for for Hutch.
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And uh the Vikings were willing to be our partner.
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My very good friend, uh, we talked about collaboration with teams, Rob Brzezinski, who's who's now their their GM, and he's gonna do a fantastic job there.
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I'm just with him at the Combine this week doing doing meetings and talking.
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And uh, we came up with with the idea that uh, you know, he he would sign a contract, which would be one thing to the Vikings, which was a seven-year deal for$49 million uh for 21 guaranteed.
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And I'm sure some of the people watching or listening are like, well, that's that's not much of a deal.
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And at the time, that was a really big deal for an offensive lineman.
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It was it was starting left tackle money and a massive guarantee.
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We used to uh any player who got 20 million or more guaranteed, we would kind of put in a category as this is uh a plus plus plus contract because there were so few guys who had 20 million or more guaranteed.
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So that would be the deal for the Vikings, but it had a clause in it that said if he played more than two games in any season in the contract in the state of Washington, the entire$49 million would become guaranteed, right?
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And obviously that wouldn't be the case if he played for the Vikings.
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And it also had a clause as well that said he had to be the highest player in APY for his team uh for the first year of the contract, which would have been impossible with Seattle too, because they had uh they had Walter Jones, who was making a little more, he was a Hall of Fame left tackle.
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For the Vikings, it was seven for 49, 21 guaranteed.
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And if Seattle had matched, because that was called at the time considered a principal term, and on an offer sheet, you have to match all the principal terms of the contract.
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For Seattle, it would have been a seven-year, fully guaranteed$49 million contract, which would have been the highest guarantee for any player in the time.
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I think the the the current highest guarantee at that time was Peyton Mannon's deal, which which Tom had done too uh two years ago, and that was$35 million, right?
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So imagine adding on you know 50% almost to be the highest guarantee in the league for a guard.
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So Seattle wasn't gonna match it.
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The league challenged the contract as being you know a violation of the CBA, but it wasn't, and we won, and my dad did get to defend it.
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Uh, and then Seattle went back in Minnesota and took Nate Burleson, the receiver, who's now a TV star, I think, on the Today Show, or Good Morning America.
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He's he's known way more for that at the moment than this contract.
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But Seattle went back and did Nate Burleson, who I think was a restricted free agent because he was a third-round pick.
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He wasn't transitioned.
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And they took Nate back and uh he went on and played a number of years with Seattle, and Hutch played all seven years, I believe, with the Vikings.
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And it really was a complete win-win.
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So you talk about win-wins and contracts for both sides, and uh he's in the Hall of Fame.
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Uh he played a little bit after that with Tennessee, but it was a total win-win and a cool contract, and really the definition of collaboration because we knew we couldn't get the best offer from a team if a team didn't think they would actually get the player, right?
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I mean, you know that from from being in that seat, right?
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You know, you wouldn't want you, you make your best offer when you know you say, hey, I'll do if I if I say to you as the as a team negotiator, we're in if you do this, you're a lot more likely to say yes to that than I say, will you do this?
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Because you might say yes, and then I'm gonna say, well, can I get a little bit more, right?
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So once I say, Will you we are in for this, you often get your best offer from the team.
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So with Hutch, the team had to feel like if we do this, we're gonna get him, and we need to come up with a way that the team felt like we really would get him, and that was this.
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This is a great story because you know, when you think about it, you have really, really smart lawyers like Jeffrey Kessler and lawyers for the management councils that sit down and think of all the contingencies that could happen when they when they negotiate a collective bargaining agreement.
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Then you have other lawyers, in this case, it happens to be his son, who's all who's an agent.
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This is not an agent trying to convince a team to pay a certain amount of money.
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This is an agent actually trying to help one team get a player from another team by being really creative and structuring a contract, poison pill, hence putting things in this contract that makes it unpalatable for one side that they can't swallow it.
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Hence the poison pill.
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This is a great example when we talk about negotiation warriors, what a creative mind can do when they know the rules, and there's no way, no matter how smart the you know, the lawyers for the union and the management council are, there's always gonna be someone that finds a way to get something done if when they're cre when they're smart and creative.
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But going back to something else you said earlier, so when you were in law school at Texas, you knew that you didn't want to be a lawyer.
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What did you want to be?
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I wanted to be an agent.
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Uh I'd already worked with Tom for um I graduated undergrad in June of 2003.
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And then I worked with um I worked with Tom all the way until August of 2004, full time, right?
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So that's 14 months.
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And I I got exposed to the agent stuff with Tom.
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I he was amazing in terms of allowing me to be, you know, basically, you know, like an apprentice and sit with him while he would negotiate deals and do stuff.
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And uh, you know, you and I were chit-chat about Bill Polium before.
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I got to fly with him to Indianapolis to sit and you know watch him and build negotiate on that pay manning deal in 2004 and learn stuff and try to help out and assist Tom the way I could.
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So really, really like you know, firsthand learning.
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And so when I went to when I went to law school, um I already was very, very committed to to being an agent.
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That's great that you knew.
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All right.
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People call you Kess, right?
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Yes.
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That's people that know you well.
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I want to say the first time I met you, I cannot remember what the deal was, but I was I was impressed with how smart you were.
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You were to me, as an NFL executive, you were Jeffrey Kessler's son.
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Over time.
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Being called Jeffrey before inadvertently by people, and I just I just usually just let it roll, but it's it's happened.
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It's happened.
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All right.
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I didn't do that, but you definitely did not.
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No, you did not.
00:18:28.720 --> 00:18:29.440
No, you did not.
00:18:29.759 --> 00:18:42.000
But I'm a father of a son in law school now, and also I've gotten to see you evolve in the business, and also my peers have as well, and I don't see you that way at all.
00:18:42.640 --> 00:18:48.160
Um, but I I say that because I think that a lot of people don't know you.
00:18:48.400 --> 00:18:53.440
The people that you do business with, the teams and your agencies certainly know you.
00:18:53.680 --> 00:18:56.480
But the world, you're kind of a hidden gem out there.
00:18:56.559 --> 00:19:00.400
So I I want to just like get to know Kess, right?
00:19:00.559 --> 00:19:02.160
What are your core values?
00:19:02.640 --> 00:19:08.400
What is important for people to know about you that they can't just read in a bio of you?
00:19:08.720 --> 00:19:10.400
Oh, that's that's a great question.
00:19:10.559 --> 00:19:12.480
And I like to I like the way you ask it.
00:19:12.720 --> 00:19:16.960
I I think you know, and it sounds maybe a little a little tripe, but I hope not.
00:19:17.039 --> 00:19:23.200
I mean, I really, really enjoy being, you know, you know, being sort of an old school agent.
00:19:23.359 --> 00:19:28.720
Like I've had some people on the team side, oh, aren't you, you know, would you be interested in working for a team?
00:19:28.799 --> 00:19:31.680
And, you know, potentially in some capacity at some point.
00:19:31.839 --> 00:19:39.839
Nothing on I've ever thought of two series or on the horizon, or, you know, would you be interested in stuff, you know, running agencies, just other elements.
00:19:39.920 --> 00:19:51.200
And I, you know, there are interesting things, but I really, really enjoy um, you know, sort of like a lawyer who loves to practice law and doesn't necessarily want to run the law firm, right?
00:19:51.279 --> 00:19:54.559
Or make the business decisions of the firm or focus on on that.
00:19:54.720 --> 00:19:57.519
Um, you know, I really enjoy being an agent.
00:19:57.680 --> 00:20:01.039
I enjoy working with players, I enjoy the relationships.
00:20:01.200 --> 00:20:03.599
I love seeing, you know, guys have success.
00:20:03.759 --> 00:20:08.880
Sometimes, particularly guys who maybe one didn't think they would have that level of success.
00:20:08.960 --> 00:20:10.720
And that could be one didn't think in high school, right?
00:20:10.799 --> 00:20:12.240
Uh Jordan's love is an example.
00:20:12.400 --> 00:20:15.519
He was a first-round pick and you know was drafted to be the starting quarterback.
00:20:15.599 --> 00:20:28.640
So it's not like an underdog story, but Jordan had like two scholarship offers out of high school, and he he developed a little late, grew a little late, and obviously played at Utah State and you know, played in the pre-transfer era, so played at Utah State the whole time.
00:20:28.960 --> 00:20:35.759
So like I love seeing uh, you know, that type of, you know, that that that type of stuff and in in people like that, and then seeing them have success.
00:20:35.839 --> 00:20:38.000
And I like dealing with the different issues that come up.
00:20:38.160 --> 00:20:48.240
I mean, throughout my career, obviously there is a lot of dealing with medical stuff and negotiating contracts and making team decisions, but I've been involved in in a lot of other aspects of clients' lives.
00:20:48.400 --> 00:20:49.759
So I I really enjoy that.
00:20:50.000 --> 00:20:52.240
You know, the the work-life balance is important to me too.
00:20:52.319 --> 00:21:04.480
I mean, I I have two kids, uh Jordan who's 14 and and knows as much about uh the business of the NFL as uh many people who work in it, maybe more than some, even at times, and is interested in working in the sports business himself.
00:21:04.640 --> 00:21:11.839
I'm not sure what part, but at some part, my daughter Olivia, who's who's 11, who's great, and I've been married for almost 20 years to my wife Allison.
00:21:12.079 --> 00:21:14.319
And like you mentioned, my dad, I'm very close with my family.
00:21:14.400 --> 00:21:17.119
I have a lot of uh friends I grew up with, I'm close with.
00:21:17.200 --> 00:21:18.640
Um I live in Southern California.
00:21:18.720 --> 00:21:21.119
A lot of them live on the East Coast, but try to see them.
00:21:21.279 --> 00:21:22.720
So that stuff's important to me.
00:21:22.799 --> 00:21:29.920
And I think in sharing, you know, sharing the privileges that I get from my job with people I care about.
00:21:30.079 --> 00:21:40.319
Like many of my good friends have been with me to a Super Bowl, or this year, for example, you know, I'm at the Super Bowl with my dad, and my wife and son flew up after his hockey game that morning to meet us and go to the game.
00:21:40.400 --> 00:21:44.319
So trying to share and then you know, going with my wife to one of the team postgame parties afterwards.
00:21:44.400 --> 00:21:59.839
So I try to try to you know try to share in the uh the perks maybe is is a little bit of a cliche word, but you know, share in a lot of the fun or good stuff that comes that comes with the job, um, especially because I'm you know, I'm fortunate the people in my family are are interested in it, they like sports.
00:22:00.160 --> 00:22:06.720
They like football, but that's kind of that's kind of uh that's that's kind of that's kind of me, uh a little bit in uh in a nutshell, I guess.
00:22:06.960 --> 00:22:18.960
I'm very competitive, and like you know, I'm a five, ten, hundred sixty-pound guy, and I did play football as long as I could and you know still like to uh to do a lot of sports when I can and I run all the time, and that's that's that's pretty much me.
00:22:19.839 --> 00:22:23.279
Jordan and Olivia are your children.
00:22:23.519 --> 00:22:28.799
You represent a quarterback named Jordan Love, but you're Jordan 14 years old.
00:22:28.880 --> 00:22:31.359
There's no correlation between that, is there?
00:22:32.000 --> 00:22:32.319
No.
00:22:33.279 --> 00:22:37.359
Jordan Kessler uh uh precedes me knowing Jordan Love.
00:22:37.519 --> 00:22:40.720
I met Jordan Love in 2019 and Jordan was born in 11.
00:22:41.039 --> 00:22:45.519
But uh both Jordans know each other very well, and we do sometimes say big Jordan, little Jordan for that.
00:22:45.599 --> 00:22:46.880
So yeah, they know each other well.
00:22:47.200 --> 00:22:47.839
All right, good.
00:22:47.920 --> 00:22:50.240
I just wanted to set the record straight on that.
00:22:50.960 --> 00:23:00.720
In terms of mentors, obviously we know your dad, um, and you mentioned someone that I always looked up to, Tom Condon, who to me is legendary.
00:23:00.960 --> 00:23:01.920
Was he a mentor?
00:23:02.079 --> 00:23:03.279
What other mentors did you have?
00:23:03.359 --> 00:23:05.119
What was it like working for him?
00:23:05.200 --> 00:23:08.480
You've all you already said a little bit, but you can expand on that.
00:23:08.720 --> 00:23:11.839
I I I I cannot speak highly enough about Tom.
00:23:12.160 --> 00:23:20.480
So some of the guys I work with at times have joked because it'll be at a meeting with a prospective client and give your background, and I'll mention Tom and start talking about him.
00:23:20.559 --> 00:23:23.039
I'll be like, you know, man, Tom's not here in the meeting.
00:23:23.279 --> 00:23:25.119
Like, stop, stop talking about him so much.
00:23:25.279 --> 00:23:27.279
So, yeah, I'm more than happy to talk about Tom.
00:23:27.759 --> 00:23:29.279
Tom was great for a few reasons.
00:23:29.519 --> 00:23:33.440
One, because he was such a good agent and he did it in his way.
00:23:33.680 --> 00:23:41.039
He had such an understanding of what his strengths were as an agent, as a negotiator, as a person.
00:23:41.279 --> 00:23:44.880
And uh I think of it like Bill Belichick as a coach, right?
00:23:44.960 --> 00:23:49.920
Like Bill Belichick as a coach, he didn't have like one core philosophy.
00:23:50.160 --> 00:23:52.400
He would coach to the strengths of his team, right?
00:23:52.480 --> 00:23:54.000
And you know, people play against knowledge, right?
00:23:54.079 --> 00:23:56.880
If he had three great tight ends, they played 13 all the time.
00:23:57.039 --> 00:24:01.519
If he was a wide receiver loaded team, they'd go five wide uh and different stuff on defense.
00:24:01.599 --> 00:24:10.079
So Tom, like he knew he would, he would negotiate to his strengths, to the strengths of the clients he was representing, right?
00:24:10.160 --> 00:24:16.319
Because representing Payton Manning is very different than representing, you know, Shane Leckler, who was the best punter at that time, right?
00:24:16.559 --> 00:24:17.759
Representing a receiver.
00:24:18.000 --> 00:24:22.160
And he would understand uh, you know, dealing with people is different, right?
00:24:22.240 --> 00:24:31.440
If he was dealing with, I'm just gonna give teams here, if he was dealing with the 49ers, the Bengals, the Bears, or the Giants, those are different, you know, different ways of doing business.
00:24:31.519 --> 00:24:35.200
I mean, one thing he told me was, hey, 32 teams, 32 different businesses, right?
00:24:35.279 --> 00:24:42.240
And it's a lot of the same rules and the same system and you know, the same salary cap, but but they do things, they do things differently.
00:24:42.480 --> 00:24:46.480
So um he really had an extremely good understanding of how to do that.
00:24:46.720 --> 00:24:52.480
And then he shared it all with me, like in the most sort of open, generous way.
00:24:52.640 --> 00:24:59.839
I mean, literally that first year and a half there, he would be on the phone and you know, this is we this isn't that long, you know, the internet existed, that stuff.
00:24:59.920 --> 00:25:07.839
It wasn't kind of the the center of things that it is now, and everyone had cell phones, but very little texting, mostly phone calls, emails, you know.
00:25:07.920 --> 00:25:16.160
So he'd be on the phone negotiating a contract, could have been doing this with with with you, perhaps, and and he would just say, Andrew, you know, come sit here.
00:25:16.319 --> 00:25:21.039
And I would just sit across from him at a desk and listen pretty much to the negotiation.
00:25:21.200 --> 00:25:24.079
Now, I also might have some sheets of paper that'd be helpful.
00:25:24.160 --> 00:25:33.759
Hey, we're doing a contract for center, here's the center market, or we're doing a contract, you know, with the bears, and you know, here's you know, injury guarantee language, the bears user stuff like that.
00:25:34.000 --> 00:25:37.759
But 90% I was in there so I could learn.
00:25:38.000 --> 00:25:40.960
And that was clear, and he was completely cool with that.
00:25:41.200 --> 00:25:47.279
And uh, and that was amazing, and I recognized that was pretty unique, that probably not a lot of people got that experience.
00:25:47.440 --> 00:25:51.039
You know, I tried to sh share some of that with people over the years, but Tom was so good at it.
00:25:51.200 --> 00:25:53.440
And then on top of that, he was just a great guy.
00:25:53.519 --> 00:26:10.799
I mean, he really you know treated me as well as as could be in in in in terms of you know how to interact with people, when to when to chill out, when to be more intense, you know, when you know there were times he felt and some you know people would sort of cross a line and then you would see another side of Tom, just all all around.
00:26:10.960 --> 00:26:17.599
But really the his his ability, his willingness to share it, and and then just he's very enjoyable, enjoyable to be around.
00:26:17.759 --> 00:26:31.119
You know, I learned a lot about football from him too, because obviously you said, you know, legendary agent, but you know, he played 11 years in the NFL, 10 or 11, and you know, was a starter and was a 10th round pick from Boston College or became a starting player for the Chiefs and played in the 70s and 80s.
00:26:31.200 --> 00:26:37.039
So just learned a lot about the history of the NFL and that era and just what it was like being around players.
00:26:37.200 --> 00:26:45.839
And and I and I can't mention Tom without mentioning uh Ken Kramer too, his partner, Fuzzy, who really I could say I could say all the same stuff about, too.
00:26:46.000 --> 00:26:52.640
Uh different personality, different style, but everything I said about Tom would be applicable to Fuzz too.
00:26:52.799 --> 00:26:56.880
And uh they were such a cool team together, and their friendship was awesome.
00:26:57.039 --> 00:27:02.319
And getting to a little bit third wheel with them for for a period of years really was was awesome.
00:27:02.640 --> 00:27:13.039
There's no team today that exists that matches Tom Condon and Ken Kramer, the two former teammates, the offensive line teammates that were a great tandem.
00:27:13.680 --> 00:27:14.880
No, oh oh no, oh, even better.
00:27:15.039 --> 00:27:15.839
O-line D-line.
00:27:16.079 --> 00:27:16.880
They went at each other.
00:27:17.039 --> 00:27:19.039
They went at each other in practice every day.
00:27:19.200 --> 00:27:22.720
That's they were O-line D-line, and they would, you know, so they would literally beat each other up.
00:27:22.799 --> 00:27:26.000
And yeah, they were they're yeah, they were there is that that is unique.
00:27:26.079 --> 00:27:27.920
I don't think we'll see that that duplicated.
00:27:28.319 --> 00:27:30.240
And the stories are unmatched.
00:27:30.400 --> 00:27:41.839
I mean, I can't even say half of them what they would tell, but the stories they could tell between in during the negotiations were were worth the price of admission alone.
00:27:42.160 --> 00:27:56.640
My first first round draft pick that I had to negotiate, which and I was never had one when I was an agent, but when I worked for the Bears, it was an offensive lineman from Boston College, Mark Columbo, and Tom Condon and Ken Kramer were the agents.
00:27:56.720 --> 00:27:58.480
You you always usually got them together.
00:27:58.640 --> 00:28:07.839
And the person that was you at the time behind the scenes, who went on to have tremendous success as a front office executive and negotiator was Eric Schaefer.
00:28:07.920 --> 00:28:09.279
Was he your predecessor?
00:28:09.599 --> 00:28:18.720
Yeah, so Eric, so I got hired, and Eric was still there and was not totally planning on leaving or anything at that moment.
00:28:18.880 --> 00:28:23.359
I again, I was kind of hired to do a bunch of different things, almost like an apprenticeship.
00:28:23.519 --> 00:28:29.920
I mean, in truth, like on paper, I wasn't qualified to replace Eric really at that time.
00:28:30.160 --> 00:28:53.279
And then Eric wound up getting uh the job with with the Redskins at the time, you know, about three or four months after I'd been there, he got hired um to be, you know, to be in that role, you know, initially, you know, as like, you know, lead negotiator, director of salary cap, all that stuff, and then went there and then stayed with Washington for a very long time, you know, basically rose up to you know everything, you know, just just short of president.
00:28:53.440 --> 00:28:55.519
He was involved in all elements of the team.
00:28:55.680 --> 00:29:02.319
So when Eric left, and again, this was awesome about Tom, he basically looked at me and was like, Well, Andrew, you think you can do this?
00:29:02.559 --> 00:29:02.799
Okay.
00:29:02.960 --> 00:29:06.720
You know, I mean it was very you know, very similar to if it was a team, right?
00:29:06.799 --> 00:29:13.119
Uh, you know, you're your your offensive coordinator left and you look at someone in in your building you like and say, Do you think you can do it?
00:29:13.279 --> 00:29:14.240
Yeah, okay.
00:29:14.400 --> 00:29:29.599
That that definitely for me was was good because I had to really up my game in terms of, hey, I wasn't just sort of learning and helping, but but yeah, do doing a lot of this, you know, the work on the background uh with the negotiations.
00:29:29.680 --> 00:29:33.519
And it what it allowed me to do was I knew the the CBA quite well.
00:29:33.680 --> 00:29:41.839
I I had studied that and I'd learned it, but it really gave me the familiarity with player contracts and all those things in the marketplaces and that.
00:29:42.000 --> 00:29:48.400
So yeah, I remember I remember Mark Mark uh Mark Columbo, because he was a client when I was playing, but yeah, I wasn't there for the rookie deal.
00:29:48.559 --> 00:29:51.440
And and yeah, I mean Eric uh and and Eric also was great.
00:29:51.599 --> 00:29:52.960
Eric and I are still friends.
00:29:53.039 --> 00:29:55.519
We we've done some some some stuff together on things too.
00:29:55.599 --> 00:29:58.240
He actually works with Joe Gibbs Racing in NASCAR now.
00:29:58.400 --> 00:30:10.960
But uh Eric was awesome because when he knew he was taking the job with Washington, but before he left, he gave we spent about two weeks where we went six hours a day, five days a week, really preparing me for for for what the role would be.
00:30:11.039 --> 00:30:12.160
And that was super helpful.
00:30:12.400 --> 00:30:18.319
Everything you said about your experience there is a great lesson in not only mentorship, but leadership in general.
00:30:18.480 --> 00:30:26.480
I've talked to front office executives, especially the college level GMs, about what you said about willingness to share that experience.
00:30:26.640 --> 00:30:36.240
The fact that he let you sit in and listen to his conversations with team executives, whether they're negotiating or getting to know each other, I think is so valuable.
00:30:36.480 --> 00:30:39.039
Not everybody is secure enough to share that experience.
00:30:39.200 --> 00:30:40.559
So, two questions about that.
00:30:40.799 --> 00:30:54.559
One, was he also using you as eyes and ears, like that you would talk after just to see what did you observe, what did you hear, what were some of the clues you found, or was it just purely you just listening, taking notes, and learning?
00:30:54.880 --> 00:30:57.359
Yeah, yeah, he he he would, uh, which was cool.
00:30:57.519 --> 00:31:16.559
I mean, again, like there wasn't anything I was gonna teach him, of course, but he he would certainly ask my opinion, like he uh opinion on some stuff that was said or thoughts or ideas, or again, you know, when we were trying to work through stuff, that's how I came up with the Hutchinson idea, or and that was a few years later, so I I'd been doing it longer.
00:31:16.720 --> 00:31:26.880
But an earlier one, which I think was 04 or 05, you remember Drew Henson, who uh went to Michigan and was a high pick with the Yankees and then played with the Cowboys a little bit.
00:31:27.039 --> 00:31:28.240
So Tom represented Drew.
00:31:28.559 --> 00:31:33.359
Yeah, represented Drew, and the Cowboys took like a flyer draft pick on him in like the fifth or sixth round.
00:31:33.519 --> 00:31:47.759
And when Drew decided that he wanted to go from baseball back to football, but he had given up a bunch of money with the Yankees, we were like, well, he wants to do it, but but he needs to get, he's not gonna play for like a normal fifth or sixth round contract and no guarantees in the minimum.
00:31:47.920 --> 00:31:49.839
And again, this is when the rules were different.
00:31:50.000 --> 00:31:55.039
So Tom asked me, because he was talking to the Cowboys, like, yeah, he wants to come and but how can we do this?
00:31:55.119 --> 00:31:58.559
And kind of how can we make a square peg go through a round hole?
00:31:58.720 --> 00:32:02.000
And I came up with the idea because again, at that time there were no limits.
00:32:02.160 --> 00:32:06.720
We did basically like a 10 or 11 year rookie deal in the in the sixth round.
00:32:06.799 --> 00:32:09.440
I know this sounds crazy now, but we could do it.
00:32:09.519 --> 00:32:14.960
And because of the the 25% rule, you couldn't increase the base salaries very much.
00:32:15.119 --> 00:32:23.119
And because of the rookie pool, but what we could do was we basically gave them the minimum each year and we guaranteed the entire contract.
00:32:23.279 --> 00:32:27.200
So it was like, again, it added up to like a six million dollar guarantee.
00:32:27.359 --> 00:32:35.519
And then if he hit the minimum playtime requirement by the CBA, everything like the last seven years, six or seven years would void off.
00:32:35.680 --> 00:32:40.799
That would all become paid basically as an incentive bonus, and then it's a four-year contract.
00:32:40.960 --> 00:32:48.240
So basically, like and we the money, it was it sort of would have averaged out to like a at that time, like a late first-round contract.
00:32:48.400 --> 00:32:49.200
That was the idea.
00:32:49.440 --> 00:32:58.319
Well, Tom's point was to the Cowboys if you didn't he wasn't playing baseball and just said I'm playing football, he probably would have been a mid to late first round pick.
00:32:58.480 --> 00:33:02.720
So if he's gonna give up baseball and give up that money, he needs to get paid that way.
00:33:02.880 --> 00:33:04.559
And we we created it.
00:33:04.720 --> 00:33:07.920
Now, unfortunately, football didn't go great.
00:33:08.160 --> 00:33:17.119
He never wound up hitting that incentive, but he did get all that money from the Cowboys because eventually they released him and it all came forward and he made and he made the money.
00:33:17.200 --> 00:33:18.240
So the contract worked.
00:33:18.319 --> 00:33:23.680
But in terms of that, was something where you know Tom was negotiating with the Cowboys about what to do.
00:33:23.839 --> 00:33:35.519
And I remember he said to me, like, how can we how can we give him a first round contract with the restraints of the system, given he was picked, I guess I just can't remember if it was fifth or sixth round, but it was nowhere near the first round, and and that was something I came up with.
00:33:35.599 --> 00:33:38.480
So that there were, you know, again, that's a really good example of that.
00:33:38.559 --> 00:33:41.680
But the, you know, he would he would ask my my opinion for things.
00:33:41.759 --> 00:33:44.799
And as I gave some more good ideas like anything else, right?
00:33:44.880 --> 00:33:46.880
I got to, I got to offer more, right?
00:33:46.960 --> 00:33:55.680
It's like uh, you know, if you have an uh an assistant coach who calls some plays and they work, then then you might keep asking for ideas if they if they lead to failure, then then not so much.
00:33:55.920 --> 00:33:57.359
I I remember that well.
00:33:57.519 --> 00:33:59.599
I didn't know you were involved in it.
00:33:59.839 --> 00:34:06.000
Another just creative idea using your your mind to be how can we make this work for us?
00:34:06.160 --> 00:34:19.199
I remember Henson well because when I started working for the Bears in 2002, my brother was a longtime scout for the Houston Astros, and he kept calling me saying this baseball player should be a football player.
00:34:19.440 --> 00:34:19.760
That's right.
00:34:19.840 --> 00:34:20.320
And you know what?
00:34:20.480 --> 00:34:22.159
Now you you just reminded me, Cliff.
00:34:22.320 --> 00:34:27.039
He was actually drafted by the Texans and they traded him to the Cowboys for that contract.
00:34:27.199 --> 00:34:36.159
When you said Houston, that reminded me, I'm pretty sure he was drafted by the Texans, and then they traded, it was a smart move by Charlie Casterly, who was the GM.
00:34:36.320 --> 00:34:44.880
And I wonder if he talked to your brother, and uh he drafted Henson and then they traded him to the Cowboys that for for for like a third-round pick.
00:34:45.119 --> 00:34:54.239
Yeah, so my brother is from the day I walked into Bears offices, he was trying to convince me to convince the general manager that this was a football player.
00:34:54.400 --> 00:35:05.679
And his reasoning was he started in front of the guy that went to the the Patriots in the sixth round, Tom Brady, who wasn't established as much Tom Brady at that time.
00:35:05.920 --> 00:35:08.639
But he already but he already had like won the first Super Bowl.
00:35:08.960 --> 00:35:09.280
Yeah.
00:35:09.760 --> 00:35:13.360
He already was an NFL, you know, elite starting quarterback.
00:35:13.440 --> 00:35:14.719
That's that's all you needed to know.
00:35:14.800 --> 00:35:18.320
If you if you knew he was gonna be the GOAT, then then it would be even more so.
00:35:18.400 --> 00:35:22.639
But yes, he he already was clearly uh clearly a great NFL quarterback.
00:35:22.880 --> 00:35:24.480
Drew Henson's backup.
00:35:24.639 --> 00:35:29.440
He was they they split the backup and then they split, and yes, that's uh that's that's true.
00:35:29.519 --> 00:35:32.239
I mean, Drew Drew certainly had a ton of physical, physical ability.
00:35:32.320 --> 00:35:33.039
Yeah, that's that's true.
00:35:33.519 --> 00:35:34.880
That's a great that's a great story.
00:35:35.119 --> 00:35:38.320
Lead me back to just what you learned from Tom.
00:35:39.039 --> 00:35:43.440
Years later, you find yourself in a position to be a mentor.
00:35:43.679 --> 00:35:52.400
Did you take some of that teaching and tell us about I I know one example at least where you've definitely helped some people become very successful as an NFL agent.
00:35:52.480 --> 00:35:53.760
Can you talk about that a little bit?
00:35:54.159 --> 00:35:57.760
Yeah, well, I think probably what what you're getting at would be with David, right?
00:35:57.840 --> 00:35:59.119
Well, with David David Mulgeta.
00:35:59.360 --> 00:36:12.000
So yeah, so David, who uh, you know, I think it's empirical, it's it's unequivocal, has, you know, been the most successful NFL agent of the the past of the past 10 years, um, certainly of the past five, five, six years.
00:36:12.159 --> 00:36:14.719
And as good an agent as he's even an even better guy.
00:36:14.800 --> 00:36:19.280
You know, he's he's one of my closest friends in in the industry and is just you know awesome.
00:36:19.360 --> 00:36:23.360
I've I'm again fortunate to work with some some some really high quality people.
00:36:23.519 --> 00:36:24.880
So yeah, I met David.
00:36:24.960 --> 00:36:30.880
I won't kind of go into the entire story uh just because it'll take a while, but I met David through Jamal Charles, who I represent his whole career.
00:36:31.039 --> 00:36:33.119
I think you can see one of his jerseys in the back here.
00:36:33.360 --> 00:36:35.679
David wanted to be wanted to be an agent.
00:36:35.920 --> 00:36:37.440
I thought he'd be outstanding at it.
00:36:37.519 --> 00:36:42.480
I recommended he'd go to law school, told him, you know, we could do an internship form and all that stuff.
00:36:42.639 --> 00:36:53.840
When I when he started representing players and having a ton of success signing players and everything, I tried to do pretty much everything with him that Tom had done with me.
00:36:53.920 --> 00:36:55.599
Uh now there were a lot of differences.
00:36:55.760 --> 00:37:00.400
You know, David and I are are almost the exact same age, so it's a different type of relationship.
00:37:00.559 --> 00:37:09.039
You know, I, you know, obviously had a good career, but you know, when I was doing that with David, I was not at the level that Tom was when he was doing it with me.
00:37:09.199 --> 00:37:11.199
Um, you know, so just just some some differences.
00:37:11.280 --> 00:37:16.239
The setup of A1 is different than the setup of of how it was with Tom when he was at IMG at that time.
00:37:16.480 --> 00:37:22.800
But I I tried to teach David as much as I could about every element of the business.
00:37:22.960 --> 00:37:24.719
I think that's that's been helpful to him.
00:37:24.960 --> 00:37:31.760
Again, we're very close friends, but you know, he is now the mentor himself to numerous people and extremely successful successful.
00:37:31.920 --> 00:37:33.599
I have nothing but great stuff to say about him.
00:37:33.760 --> 00:37:35.679
He's generous when he speaks about me too.
00:37:35.840 --> 00:37:41.679
But yes, I tried to do the same stuff with him specifically and some other people I've worked with over the years as well.
00:37:41.920 --> 00:37:45.440
That Tom did for me, just hey, like you have questions, ask me.
00:37:45.599 --> 00:37:48.000
Watch me do some stuff, listen to me do some stuff.
00:37:48.159 --> 00:37:49.199
This is why I'm doing it.
00:37:49.360 --> 00:37:49.920
What do you think?
00:37:50.079 --> 00:37:51.039
Does this make sense to you?
00:37:51.280 --> 00:37:56.000
Particularly obviously on stuff with, you know, with dealing with teams, negotiating, all those things.
00:37:56.079 --> 00:37:58.960
And to the extent it's helpful, that's that's that's that's awesome.
00:37:59.039 --> 00:38:03.679
But I I I tried to emulate what I what I saw from Tom, you know, the bet the best I could.
00:38:03.760 --> 00:38:06.639
I I don't think I could do it as well as Tom did, but I but I tried to.
00:38:06.960 --> 00:38:11.599
I love hell hearing that how you pass it on, and I'm sure David's doing the same thing now too.
00:38:11.840 --> 00:38:20.480
You know, we talk about all the things about being a great negotiator, and everyone, everyone says preparation, which doesn't necessarily mean the same to everyone.
00:38:20.719 --> 00:38:23.679
You've been involved in high-stakes negotiations.
00:38:23.760 --> 00:38:24.719
You you are right now.
00:38:24.880 --> 00:38:37.920
I'm not going to ask you about specifics, but the quarterback specifically is the most important position, the highest value position, usually when you should have the most leverage, and I know you don't always have leverage.
00:38:38.159 --> 00:38:48.159
Is there anything in the preparation process you do specifically that you're able to share when you're getting ready for a high stake negotiation like a quarterback?
00:38:48.480 --> 00:38:56.239
Yeah, and um you make a great point because preparing is a uh is different things for different for different people.
00:38:56.400 --> 00:39:01.440
Some people like to have you know a huge amount of information in front of them.
00:39:01.599 --> 00:39:06.719
Some people like to have very long sort of memos or things like that.
00:39:06.880 --> 00:39:13.039
And I do like, at least initially in a negotiation, I think some written correspondence can be very helpful.
00:39:13.280 --> 00:39:20.880
I'm a little more of an instinctual negotiator and kind of like to read the situation and see what's going on.
00:39:21.039 --> 00:39:29.119
Um, I do think I'm fortunate that, you know, one of my skills is a pretty good memory and recall of deals and contracts.
00:39:29.199 --> 00:39:38.239
I don't necessarily need everything sitting right there in front of me and you know, both historically and recent ones, but I certainly have, you know, some core notes that I'll take into negotiation.
00:39:38.400 --> 00:39:41.440
And I usually have a pretty good idea in my head of what I want to achieve.
00:39:41.599 --> 00:39:57.199
But yeah, I like I said, I'm a little more instinctual, reactive if I pick up on something that someone says in a negotiation, and then I think I can use it to make a point or a trap is certainly the wrong word, but kind of be like, well, wait a minute.
00:39:57.280 --> 00:40:01.360
You said A, now you're saying B, it's gotta be one or the other, right?
00:40:01.519 --> 00:40:03.760
Or you said A, now you're saying B.
00:40:04.000 --> 00:40:08.480
A can't be true if B is you just said this, and that's really the same thing I said.
00:40:08.559 --> 00:40:10.000
So you're agreeing with me here.
00:40:10.079 --> 00:40:13.679
That that that's kind of more my style, and try to work that way.
00:40:13.760 --> 00:40:15.199
Because here's here's the bottom line, right?
00:40:15.280 --> 00:40:16.159
And you know this.
00:40:16.320 --> 00:40:20.320
If you have an unrestricted free agent, you have a lot of leverage if if if teams want them.
00:40:20.400 --> 00:40:24.639
And that leverage is typically, you know, old-fashioned supply and demand, right?
00:40:24.719 --> 00:40:28.239
And then it's figuring out with your client which situation makes the most sense.
00:40:28.480 --> 00:40:45.760
When you're negotiation, when you're negotiating an extension or a player who doesn't have the leverage to leave, you obviously have leverage and different things you can do, but it's not necessarily about winning because you can't force what you want to happen to happen, right?
00:40:45.920 --> 00:40:55.840
You may be able to force some things to happen that won't be good for the team or maybe won't be good for anybody, but you can't force exactly what you want to happen to happen.
00:40:55.920 --> 00:41:00.079
That that that's impossible with a player who who, again, who's not a free agent.
00:41:00.239 --> 00:41:08.639
With a free agent, again, you can't you can't say, well, I want this contract, I'm gonna get it, but but the market bears it out, you you you can get it and you know, you get your true market value.
00:41:08.800 --> 00:41:18.480
But I think, again, so like winning the negotiation is is not, I made 10 great points, you made one not good point, I win.
00:41:18.639 --> 00:41:19.440
Give me my deal.
00:41:19.599 --> 00:41:21.119
It doesn't work that way, right?
00:41:21.199 --> 00:41:34.880
Even if it's true, even if you feel like maybe it should, because ultimately you still need to come to an agreement and convince the other side to do to do the deal with you that that that you want to do and that that and that they're willing to do.
00:41:35.039 --> 00:41:39.519
So so again, winning is having some finding agreement that works for both.
00:41:39.599 --> 00:41:43.119
So again, if it's like, hey, I need this in the deal, okay?
00:41:43.280 --> 00:41:47.199
I need this, and here's why, and you need to understand why I need it, okay?
00:41:47.440 --> 00:41:50.880
If you're gonna give me this, what do you need in return?
00:41:51.119 --> 00:41:53.199
And let's see if if we have agreement there.
00:41:53.440 --> 00:41:54.880
We do have agreement there, okay.
00:41:54.960 --> 00:41:56.320
Then let's go to other parts, right?
00:41:56.480 --> 00:42:00.320
And that person may say to me, hey, I absolutely understand you say you need it.
00:42:00.400 --> 00:42:01.280
I can't do that.
00:42:01.440 --> 00:42:06.480
Is there anything else I can do that you could do the deal without this or only with part of this?
00:42:06.639 --> 00:42:08.000
Well, maybe there is, maybe there isn't.
00:42:08.079 --> 00:42:11.280
It's limited you don't do a deal over that, but sometimes you do.
00:42:11.519 --> 00:42:36.159
I've also found, you know, not to give anything away, but at times in negotiations, when one side is too fixated on one element, that oftentimes, in my opinion, the other side will wind up with a better deal because that one side can take their one element, and then to get that one element, they'll give 10 other things away, which wind up being more valuable.
00:42:36.320 --> 00:42:37.920
And I've seen that happen both ways.
00:42:38.239 --> 00:42:43.199
What I'm hearing is, first of all, I'm hearing a very high level of emotional intelligence.
00:42:43.440 --> 00:42:48.559
When I hear you say instinctual, I read the situation, it's not about winning.
00:42:48.719 --> 00:42:54.960
These are these are things that really strike hard with uh the core philosophy of being a negotiation warrior.
00:42:55.199 --> 00:43:04.960
I never loved, nor did I ever really appreciate when someone came to negotiation with just like a ton of stats or they were sending sheets and sheets and sheets of stats.
00:43:05.119 --> 00:43:14.960
I also felt I felt like that was a situation where they definitely weren't reading the situation and more talking at us to force what you just said to happen.
00:43:15.199 --> 00:43:17.599
What's your view on that, on that style?
00:43:18.000 --> 00:43:19.760
It is not exactly my style.
00:43:19.920 --> 00:43:23.599
I think again, football particularly, you know, it's not baseball.
00:43:23.840 --> 00:43:31.360
People try to make it, you know, some of the and and I'm not against analytics, I'm not against stats, obviously, but I mean it is an ultimate team game.
00:43:31.519 --> 00:43:34.400
It's been described to me as people who played at the highest level.
00:43:34.480 --> 00:43:39.840
I mean, you mentioned I played it at a radically different level, but still play it as, you know, somewhat organized chaos.
00:43:40.079 --> 00:43:44.719
There's a lot going on there, there's a lot of moving parts, it's not a lot of isolated stuff.
00:43:44.880 --> 00:43:49.039
And obviously, you know, anyone can tell you Tom Brady's an amazing quarterback, right?
00:43:49.199 --> 00:43:56.880
Barry Sanders is an amazing running back, Jerry Rice is an amazing receiver, Walter Jones is an amazing tackle, but uh it's not just because of statistics, right?
00:43:56.960 --> 00:44:00.800
And in some positions are more statistical than others, and there's so many factors.
00:44:00.880 --> 00:44:03.760
So I I do think there's there's there's an element of that.
00:44:04.000 --> 00:44:11.360
But again I try to take the more of a of a of a big picture approach and it's not just it's not just like stats, numbers, stats, numbers.
00:44:11.440 --> 00:44:13.199
Because here's everything too with stats and numbers.
00:44:13.440 --> 00:44:19.599
Smart people to an extent can you know manipulate those numbers to make their point.
00:44:19.840 --> 00:44:24.320
So I think if you if you know you got to be cognizant of that and it's more the more the biggest factor.
00:44:24.400 --> 00:44:28.719
And again if like you know if you're doing a deal for a receiver that's a statistical position.
00:44:28.880 --> 00:44:30.400
Statistics do matter, right?
00:44:30.480 --> 00:44:40.000
Like no one's going to say a player with 15 catches in a season is going to be the high one of the high you know who's averaged 15 catches a season for three years is going to be one of the highest paid receivers.
00:44:40.239 --> 00:44:42.159
Like no one was going to say that, right?
00:44:42.320 --> 00:44:49.679
And if a guy averages a hundred catches a year for three years, no one's going to say that guy's not a really productive player because definitionally he is.
00:44:49.920 --> 00:45:06.559
So I think you really need to understand you know what you're dealing with and that this guy may be a phenomenal receiver, but because of the quarterback situation or the O-line situation or the type of offense they run, the numbers aren't what this guy is who's good but not actually as good, right?
00:45:06.719 --> 00:45:20.159
Or I mean again I mean to me like some of the most overblown stats are sacks and interceptions because a defensive player can be doing his job super well and not necessarily get interceptions or sacks.
00:45:20.239 --> 00:45:28.880
Or he could be doing his job not poorly but at a very average level and wind up you know with a decent number depending on what happens.
00:45:29.039 --> 00:45:35.920
Obviously if there are stats that help one of my clients of course I'm going to use them and if they don't favor them I'm going to you know not want to use them.
00:45:36.079 --> 00:45:41.199
But I don't think that's really the basis of uh of most negotiations for for for most players.
00:45:41.280 --> 00:45:45.280
I I really I don't I think there's there's there's there's other other stuff there.
00:45:45.760 --> 00:46:02.239
And what I'm hearing too especially I'm glad you brought up like baseball that there is a difference because there's nothing when it comes to evaluating talent with NFL players there's nothing that can really it can supplement but nothing that can replace the human eye evaluation.
00:46:02.800 --> 00:46:09.280
And a great example that like you know you know David did all this he's the only one client you know with with Micah Parsons last year, right?
00:46:09.440 --> 00:46:22.880
Like whether he has 10 sacks, 12 sacks, 14 sacks like you watch Micah Parsons play you see the impact he has on the game like you see how he impacts the game and that may result in other players getting sacks.
00:46:23.039 --> 00:46:25.599
That may result in the quarterback throwing interceptions.
00:46:25.760 --> 00:46:37.360
That may result in them running the ball more right but you see the impact and that's not uh you know that that's not just because he, you know, he's not a better player because he has 11 sacks or 13 sacks in a season.
00:46:37.440 --> 00:46:40.880
He's a phenomenal player because of what you know because of what you see.
00:46:40.960 --> 00:46:42.400
And that that that's that's a difference.
00:46:42.480 --> 00:46:52.480
I think that's important to important to I love that because people read you know these things all the time and then they see valuations but no one really talks about what you just said.
00:46:52.559 --> 00:46:59.679
So I'm really glad you made that point, especially from the agent side where they have the stats in their favor and they're still telling you you got to look at the whole thing.
00:47:00.000 --> 00:47:18.480
Yeah well and sometimes and sometimes the stats aren't in our favor, you know I mean sometimes they are sometimes they're not because you know we'll have guys who make a huge impact and it doesn't you know particularly like in the secondary um you know with DBs like if you're if you're a lockdown corner I mean typically you might have one year and then teams stop throwing at you, right?
00:47:18.559 --> 00:47:22.239
So sometimes, you know, like I've had teams tell me oh well we need more ball production.
00:47:22.480 --> 00:47:23.599
How can he get ball production?
00:47:23.679 --> 00:47:27.199
The ball never comes anywhere near him right like what do what do you want him what do you want him to do?
00:47:27.280 --> 00:47:29.519
You want him to you know to play outside the system?
00:47:29.599 --> 00:47:30.800
So it goes both ways.
00:47:30.880 --> 00:47:39.840
But yeah you gotta gotta see what's you know see what's going on and and again baseball or even basketball some some other games are are are you know are are different for for for different guys.
00:47:40.000 --> 00:48:00.400
You know I get told my uh I may mention my fortune he's a b he's a big ice hockey player and I've I've learned a lot more about ice hockey since he's played you know hockey again for more like football like yes if someone scores a lot of goals it's like scoring a lot of touchdowns like that's good you can't argue it kind of like football hockey is a bit of organized chaos and it's not all statistically driven.
00:48:00.559 --> 00:48:18.320
A guy could have a phenomenal game and have no points and a guy could really not have much of a game and he knocked in one goal because he was in the right spot at the right time but he didn't really play well the same way you know a guy could have no sacks and dominate and a guy could have a sack because you know another guy pushed him into him but he didn't have a good game.
00:48:18.559 --> 00:48:22.960
Speaking of hockey I'm so glad that uh Jordan got to live through the U.S.
00:48:23.039 --> 00:48:25.760
team winning the gold medal how excited is he?
00:48:26.000 --> 00:49:31.679
We were very excited he actually uh told me to get away from football so his team had a game uh that morning very early so we were on the way to a rink watching it the kids are all watching in the locker room getting ready and then it's basically just about heading overtime they all get on the ice the game's still going on obviously it's a hockey rink it's all hockey parents everybody's watching the game the game's on in you know the USA won during the period and I mean the kid the kids knew you know after the game I said I was like you guys knew he's like oh yeah we're word got to the bench fast and yeah is it is a it's a cool thing it's cool for hockey it's cool for for the US and uh yeah a lot of people you know who don't know hockey like oh like did you know this or this about this player I was like yeah man we're hockey fans like we know all these players two more questions one you know and you touched on you're being very you were showing how you're an advocate for your clients but also very honest you know when doing this podcast I'm gonna you know I'm interviewing people from both sides so I have some front office executives current and former but agents and I did ask a lot of front office executives like hey who's the best agent that you ever had a deal with or who's the best agent that does the best deals different things like that.
00:49:31.920 --> 00:49:35.599
And many of them had you in the top two or three.
00:49:35.760 --> 00:49:53.440
Again I think this is an opportunity for people to get to know Kess more but what is your how do you explain this that they're they're mentioning you what's your secret to building strong relationships while also being able to be a passionate advocate for your clients?
00:49:53.920 --> 00:50:10.000
Again I appreciate them saying it um and I was appreciate all the you know really really nice words throughout this I think it's this right I'm you know I'm an ultimate player guy I grew up around it you know I mentioned earlier working for a team would be interesting but you know could I actually work on the team side?
00:50:10.079 --> 00:50:17.119
I I don't know because I'm so player centric and if I did it certainly couldn't like I could have not done your I could never do the job that you do with the Bears.
00:50:17.199 --> 00:50:18.960
I couldn't sort of negotiate against players.
00:50:19.119 --> 00:50:28.320
Like could I do something on the team side that wasn't involved in that perhaps but that that for me I I couldn't do just just because again because I've couldn't I back up but you know some other stuff.
00:50:28.400 --> 00:50:30.400
The idea of roster and team building is cool.
00:50:30.639 --> 00:50:37.840
But to answer the question I think and I hope you know is that they understand how passionately I advocate and how much I care.
00:50:38.159 --> 00:50:49.599
But I do see both sides to the coin and and and I try to understand where the team is coming from and why and find a solution that works for both sides.
00:50:49.760 --> 00:51:13.920
Because like sure you know would I love my player to make a hundred million dollars in a season of course I I understand why that can't work and that's a silly example just to be extreme or even the nature of stuff with guarantees you know like I you know this is a deeper conversation but you know football because it's different than the other sports like the amount of guaranteed money players get cumulatively you know is is is is is is very high.
00:51:14.079 --> 00:51:18.960
Like one guy gets released with a non-guaranteed deal that money doesn't go into the owner's pocket.
00:51:19.039 --> 00:51:22.639
That money goes to another player and often becomes a guaranteed payment.
00:51:22.800 --> 00:51:58.719
So trying to understand it from both sides and then find some that works for both sides in doing it in a way where again I I I see I may disagree right I may disagree you know one thing that you know I I've I often get into it with teams disagree is is you know it's you know the cash budget and obviously I never worked for a team so I don't factor that in but I'm like well you know your team's worth seven billion dollars you know your owner has the money like you should be able to expand the cash budget and the person I'm talking with for example would like to expand the cash budget right because that gives that allows them to do their job better.
00:51:58.880 --> 00:52:02.400
This could be a GM or or a lead negotiator, but it's not their decision.
00:52:02.480 --> 00:52:12.559
So like trying to understand things like that and understand their pers their perspectives maybe more than some other agents who at times are more just no, this is what I want.
00:52:12.719 --> 00:52:16.480
I want it for this reason and understanding how different teams operate too.
00:52:16.719 --> 00:52:23.119
Green Bay Packers without an owner are are different than dealing with a team that has an owner who's very, very involved.
00:52:23.360 --> 00:52:24.639
Everybody knows it's not a secret.
00:52:24.880 --> 00:52:27.280
Jerry Jones is really involved with the Cowboys, right?
00:52:27.360 --> 00:52:30.000
The Brown family is really involved with the Bengals, right?
00:52:30.159 --> 00:52:35.280
And then you have teams who have an owner who is not day to day involved right and it's the people there.
00:52:35.360 --> 00:53:17.760
It's obviously still their team their money but dealing with the Packers dealing with the Cowboys and dealing with the Bears we'll just use your old team for example uh right where the owner is not like day-to-day involved with the with the football side of it are three are three very different things and in understanding those differences and recognizing kind of hey look well if you guys are are limited by this then then you got to do this or or you know or you got you know f finding ways to find that compromise and doing it you know in a in a respectful way which I I imagine most people would say but I I think maybe maybe it's that a little more which is ironic because I again I'm I'm so player centric and I grew up with it but but understanding it from from their side understanding it from their side.
00:53:17.840 --> 00:53:21.119
Again maybe don't don't agree but understanding it from their side.
00:53:21.199 --> 00:53:27.039
But like anyone else I've had my times where I'm like you know I can't believe you're saying that or that makes no sense or I think that's ridiculous.
00:53:27.199 --> 00:53:29.039
But but trying to understand it from their side.
00:53:29.360 --> 00:53:30.000
No that's great.
00:53:30.159 --> 00:53:41.119
And I really think that answers even my last question because you said it earlier it's not about winning and you're trying to find a solution and that's what being a negotiator is.
00:53:41.280 --> 00:53:44.320
A negotiator is someone that is not trying to win.
00:53:44.480 --> 00:53:48.719
It's a strategic pro communication process to solve a problem.
00:53:48.800 --> 00:53:52.639
And that's pretty much what you explained during this whole podcast episode.
00:53:52.719 --> 00:53:54.400
So I really really appreciate that.
00:53:54.559 --> 00:53:55.920
And I appreciate your time.
00:53:56.079 --> 00:53:57.199
You know you've been great.
00:53:57.360 --> 00:53:58.400
Thank you for coming on.
00:53:58.480 --> 00:54:02.400
I know Yeah it's it's been fun a good good conversation I've uh I've enjoyed it.
00:54:02.559 --> 00:54:17.360
Well you're great I'm a big fan uh we look forward to seeing the next thing that uh Andrew Kessler does and athletes first but you do great deals and helped improve the game change the game brought some pull back the curtain though a little bit and see how it happened.
00:54:17.519 --> 00:54:18.800
So thank you for that.
00:54:19.119 --> 00:54:25.119
Awesome thanks Cliff I I appreciate it and uh again a lot of fun and um you know good luck to you with everything that that you're doing.
00:54:25.760 --> 00:54:26.159
Cool stuff.
00:54:26.320 --> 00:54:26.800
Appreciate it.
00:54:26.880 --> 00:54:27.519
We'll talk to you soon.
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Thanks Andrew take care bye bye thank you for listening to Negotiation Warriors I hope you enjoyed this episode and if you like what you heard please subscribe on the Negotiation Warriors YouTube channel and follow us at FrontOffice 360 on Instagram and X.
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And to find out our helping college athletic programs go to frontoffice three sixty dot com