Equipping the Called: Carolyn Taketa on Women in the Church

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Welcome to Native Exiles Alderwood Community Churches podcast where we talk about following Jesus and the tension of being in the world, but not of it.
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And my guest today is Carolyn Takeda, who is currently an executive coach and also spent 17 years in church leadership after a career in law and also a stay-at-home mom.
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And she brings all of that history and all that wisdom today into a conversation around women in church leadership positions in the church.
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And this is kind of wrapping up our series here as we've been producing position papers and this last one, uh, you know, our recent paper on women in church leadership at Alderwood.
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Uh, this is just such a great follow-up conversation to that, and I think really puts some handles on what can be maybe some some more of a theoretical conversation.
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But we really get into the weeds today of what this looks like in the real world, and I can't wait to jump into it with you.
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Here we go.
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Well, Carolyn, thank you so much for joining us today.
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It's great to have you.
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Oh, thanks for having me.
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I'm excited about our conversation.
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Wait, can we just begin for people who aren't familiar with you?
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Uh, would you introduce yourself and tell us a little bit about your career and what you've been up to?
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Yes.
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So I am um, let's see, by trade, I'm an attorney.
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Um, I practiced litigation and employment law for a number of years.
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Then I was a stay-home mom because we were super blessed with two daughters.
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Uh, I may have learned more about uh equipping for ministry through my those five years of being home with the little ones, then perhaps my years as a lawyer.
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And then God called me into ministry, and now we're gonna unpack that a bit.
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Um, and I was at our church, which is a large um church in Southern California in the Westlake Village area for 17 plus years as a small groups pastor.
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Um, and then I stepped down from that at the end of uh 2022.
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And for the last three years, I've been using everything I've learned in leadership and all the different spheres, I've learned it to coach um leaders, primarily church leaders, nonprofit leaders, um also some corporate, uh, around emotional intelligence for leaders.
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Just how do we become better, healthier people so that we can lead people to be healthier and be better followers of Jesus.
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And so I've done gotten to do some work with Right Now Media on emotional intelligence for church leaders, do a curriculum there, gotten to do a lot of random things, what's seemingly random things.
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I don't know why, you probably have those in your life too.
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They're seemingly random, but then, you know, in God's design, they're not quite so random.
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So one of my passion areas is equipping and empowering and encouraging women leaders in the inside and outside the church.
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Well, I love that.
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And that's what we're gonna talk about today.
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Uh, I wonder if we can kind of go back towards the beginning of uh that story and talk a little bit about your transition into the church world.
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You said you're a lawyer by trade.
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Yes.
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And then uh I'm assuming your work as a lawyer was not in a Christian ministry context.
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Yeah, it was in the secular world.
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And uh, you know, you uh you describe yourself on your website as someone who's been a female leader in male-dominated contexts.
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Yes.
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I'm assuming that is referring to your church work.
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Was that also true in your work as a lawyer?
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Yeah, because back then, um, you know, I'm gonna date myself here, but like 30 years ago, there weren't that many women lawyers in um in large law firms where I was at.
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And so throughout the course of my careers, all three careers actually, my mentors have been men, my bosses have been men, my coworkers have been men.
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I've been saturated with male leadership, and that's been both a blessing and a challenge.
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Um, and so yeah, I think um I'm really comfortable in some ways in male spaces.
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I think because of my training, and I tend to be more direct, which I think got me a little trouble in the church world, but was really an asset in the lawyer world.
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And so, you know, I'm always I've always thought about that verse about being all things to all people, to win them to Christ.
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And that's been one of my cornerstone approaches to anything I've done is to go, okay, what do I, what does this person in front of me need the most to understand who God is and how God's equipped them and their divine design.
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And how do I help bring that out in them?
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Whether it's a small group leader, it's a small group pastor for so long, whether it's a woman on staff, whether they're younger, older, whatever it is, I just try to contextualize the principles that we we know and believe and have lived out into those contexts.
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I yeah, I I love that.
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That's really helpful.
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And um I I am curious about something you just said about how you are a direct person and you found that in the in the lawyer space that was uh an asset, and in the church space that maybe wasn't as much of an asset.
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I'm I I'm assuming, and and I would guess that there's there were a lot of changes that happened when you moved from the corporate world, from the law firm kind of context into the church world as a leader.
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Can you help us walk through that from your experience uh stepping into leading in a church context?
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Uh what was that like coming from the corporate world?
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Yeah, it was really different.
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I think um one of the first parts that were different.
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I was initially so excited.
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I'm like, wow, we get paid to pray.
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Like, what on earth is this?
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This is amazing.
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But then I also realized the pace of um change in a church is a lot slower.
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Um, you have to get consensus and build that and trust in a way that as a lawyer I could just um say it and make it be.
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Um there was just, it's a different organization, completely different animal together.
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Um but if I can back up and say, okay, I never intended to be a pastor at all.
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I grew up in the church.
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My parents are both incredibly devoted, um, followers of Jesus, and they're both bivocational.
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But we grew up in conservative churches.
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So my uh my parents both had seminary degrees bivocationally, but my dad was an elder and a pastor, and my mom was in the education space and a missionary, and uh she was a deaconess.
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So there was like different roles, not by gifting so much as by the hierarchy of it.
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So then growing up in that, I only saw male um leaders from the platform, and so I just thought this is just how it is.
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And then I went to law school and kind of was like, wait, how does this really work?
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And I was in my first egalitarian church and I was like, whoa, this is wild and different.
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So then fast forward, I married.
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Um, we are attending a large uh mega church in our area, and um all along I've been involved with small groups throughout my life.
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I led my first one when I was in high school, then I did it in college, then it with university, then I was just there's kind of this drumbeat of community, and I moved around a lot as a kid.
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So I think that's one of the passions God had in me.
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Anyway, so we're in this large church, like 5,000 people, and there are like virtually no small groups.
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And so I did what a lot of congregants do.
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I went to the top to complain.
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And um, I happened to have gotten not the senior pastor at the time, but somebody, first woman I ever saw in an executive team at a church.
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And um, so she had come out of Willow Creek, and so I met with her, and I said, Hey, there's this big back door because there's no community.
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How do we not have a community system here?
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It's something.
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Um and I said, This just seems really problematic.
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So you guys need to fix this.
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And then she said, Why don't you fix it?
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And I'm like, No, I'm a lawyer, I'm not a pastor, I have no desire to be a pastor.
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Um, and she's like, Why don't you think and pray on it?
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Which, you know, of course, is the Christian answer that you give to volunteers that you want to step up.
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So she gave, yes, and she knew I was a nerd, so she gave me some books to read on community.
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She encouraged me to pray.
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And so I did, I did like a deep dive on the one another's in the New Testament, 50 plus one another.
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And I read the books in small groups, and about I was so convicted that biblical community was a mandate, um, and you couldn't grow apart from community with one another.
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And I that really changed how I thought about small groups or fellowship.
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I thought that was more of like a nice thing to keep people in the church, but I was like, oh my gosh, this is a biblical command.
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And so that changed, blew my mind.
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And I was like, you know, I want to invest in people because they matter the most.
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I was we I was happy and comfortable as a lawyer moving money from one pocket to the next, large-scale litigation and stuff, but it wasn't really that meaningful.
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And I thought, I want to invest in what matters forever, and that's people.
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And so I was like, okay, so I went back to her and I said, okay, I'll do this part-time until you get a real pastor.
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I literally said real pastor.
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And then she said, okay, well, let's go a year at a time.
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And then it was 17 years later.
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Um, but within about five years, uh, my senior pastor came to me and said, Well, it looks like you are gonna be the real pastor, and um asked, said, Let's license you because you're already doing the work of a pastor, and that is a verb, not a noun.
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And our elders and I um would like you to consider this.
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And it that hadn't really been done in our church in a really long time.
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Wow.
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So that was a big step forward.
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You say that your church didn't have other women that were called pastor at that point.
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There was one, and she was kind of a carryover from a former time.
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So yeah, there was not, and we had a staff of maybe I'm gonna say like 50, 60 people.
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Um, so I was the first in a really long time.
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And then the other thing was so my church, former church, um, was um soft complementarian, is I think what you might call it, or soft egalitarian, perhaps.
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I don't know how you define these things.
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You were working at or the church that you grew up.
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Yeah, I was working at.
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The same church.
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So it was the church we were attending that I ended up working at um for that whole time.
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And so um they were, I guess, what I don't know what you would categorize it at.
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So basically, women were um allowed to lead in every area except for the pulpit and the elders.
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Okay.
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So we call that what software's so many names.
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Yeah.
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Uh soft commentarian, non-hierarchical commentarian, generous commentarian.
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Yeah, we're there's a lot of uh words that we like to throw at the beginning of complementarian to make it seem softer.
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Yes, okay.
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And so just so that your listeners know, um, I had um done some seminary work at Fuller, and where I landed after my study and thought and prayer was that I was a full egalitarian.
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Um, and so this to me to be in a church that was not um would seem like a conflict.
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And I know we're gonna dive into this in a bit, but I think to me it wasn't about the label, because it's not one of the um essential, essential pieces that we hold tied to, really to the gospel, right?
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And so to me, it was like, oh, it would be really lovely if women were equipped to do all the things.
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But could I do what God has called me to do in this framework of where they are theologically?
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And the answer was yes.
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And so I stayed and continued to um, you know, be the best I could be at what I was doing and open doors for other women and constantly be an influence if possible, but not having like an agenda.
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I didn't have this whole like, I'm gonna go be a feminist with this or whatever.
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I am a feminist, but that wasn't the goal.
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It was really like, how do I submit to the Lord here and what he's called me to do?
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But yet at the same time, part of what I bring to the table is that I am female.
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Like you can't separate that apart from me.
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So I bring that into whatever space I walk in.
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Um, and that includes settings where it's mostly men, our executive team was male for a long time.
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It was me and like seven guys, eight guys.
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Um then it was, you know, in the preaching teaching space.
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I couldn't teach, but I was invited to give input to it.
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Um, I wrote curriculum, I produced curriculum.
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Like I had, I went wherever I could to offer whatever gifts I had to build up our church.
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I well, I love that attitude so much.
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And that's you know, that's my heart for our church, and and what I love seeing just kingdomwide is can we both treat uh this conversation around women in leadership and what roles are appropriate and all of that as important and mattering, but at the same time recognize that this is not the thing, this is not the most important thing.
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We need to be brothers and sisters first and be able to talk that way.
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And I love the attitude that you had of just saying, um, this isn't actually where I land theologically.
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I would like to see some things differently, but I can work here in this context, and God's using me in this context, and I'm gonna stay faithful.
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And I just, you know, I would love for people on both sides of this conversation to have that kind of attitude when we're when we're partnering in the church and working and and advancing the kingdom together.
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Um your story, it uh r reminds me of a reality that you know I'm encountering myself as we're leading our church through this conversation, which is that uh, you know, your policies about women in leadership in the church and your reality about women in the church are not the same thing necessarily.
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We hope that they would be, but often they're not.
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And um, you know, in our in our context, I inherited a written position in women in leadership when I became the lead pastor here several years ago.
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And uh, you know, I I had some issues with it and some things that I thought were consistent, and that, you know, with our elders, that kind of began a process of updating that and in my opinion, making it a little bit more coherent ideologically.
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Uh, but regardless of where I thought the position was, one of the things I just noticed right away was, you know, this position allows for all kinds of things for women to be doing leadership that just aren't happening.
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You know, uh for some reason, every usher in our church is a man, and there's no theological purpose for that.
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Like that's not written anywhere, that's just a thing that is, you know, that exists.
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Um, and you know, we our our paper allowed for women leading mixed gender small groups and teaching in Bible study contexts and things like that, and those things weren't happening either.
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And it sounds like you kind of walked into a similar situation as well, where you're saying, like, the church's theology said, you know, maybe women can't teach from the pulpit and women can't be elders, but also you were the first woman in a long, long time to serve in a pastoral role.
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And uh, and I wonder if you could talk just a little bit about that disconnect or that kind of uh cultural reality that's different from what's written on paper.
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I did you face pushback from people when you took that role as pastor, even though it was something that on paper was allowed even before you got to?
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Yes.
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Yes, that's such an insightful question.
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Okay, so you said so much in there.
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I have so many thoughts.
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All right.
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So, first off, yes, I have worked with a lot of women pastors, both as a coach, and then for a um there's an organization called Small Group Network, and it was started by um Steve Um Glayton from Saddleback Church when he became a small group pastor.
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He was also a dear friend, was a small group pastor at our church.
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And when I got into this role, he was my first phone call to go, how do you do this ministry thing?
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Um, but he, because I was involved with the small group network, which started out with like 12 people and now has like 30,000.
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Um, I got to talk to a lot.
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Every year we would gather and I would have women gather separately with me because and I would ask for their stories.
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And so to your point, so many of the times I thought, if only the theology, and people think this, women think this.
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Oh, if only my church had an egalitarian theology, then we would flourish.
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No, sadly, no, because there were churches that had that on paper, exactly as you said, but none of it was being executed.
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So women were experiencing very similar types of limitations and gender stereotyping and um biases, conscious, unconscious biases, regardless of what their theological position paper said.
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And that was a big aha.
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And that's been consistent in women I have coached and women I've seen at conferences, and all it's just this is like if you ask the question, what is your experience as a woman in leadership at your church?
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You you really would not be able to guess theologically where they were at because their experiences are so across the board of just because it's allowed doesn't mean there's anybody.
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So you know, someone would say, um, you know, we're allowed that women can teach on paper.
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We've never had a single woman teach except for Mother's Day.
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So what people are actually doing in reality is setting this the culture so much more than what that position paper on the website is saying.
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And I guess that's one of the encouragements would be like, be really clear and have it match in integrity.
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And I had a chance to look at Alderwood, your church's um position paper, which is like, you know, shining, smoking new.
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And I was so impressed by it because it reflects and it's very clear without making apologies, without being like um having an agenda.
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Like, I think where you guys land, it is it is coherent, is the word I would use as well.
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And it's articulate.
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Um, and so I think where uh my former church and a lot of churches land is they kind of want to try to have it both ways, especially if you're on the West Coast like we are, um, to be more uh overtly complementarian is really a hard sell with the younger generation.
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Um, and so and the unchurched and the newly churched.
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Like it's because it's so smacks against all of our laws, even for you know, egalitarian or for um equality in the workplace.
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And so my husband used to joke that the church gets away with stuff, he's an implement lawyer, gets away with things that you can never get away with in terms of gender discrimination in other places, right?
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And I'm like, yes, but the church is not, um is by and large, first of all, a mission.
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So it's it's not the same.
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So I think the transition to be like, okay, now we're gonna actually live out what we say.
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Um, and to go, okay, if women can, if your the church theology says women can lead at any level other than um the pulpit or eldership, then where are they?
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Are they leading your small groups?
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Are they leading missions?
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Are they, you know, and so when I would um often have younger women call me, either through the small group network or just because they would find out about me, I'd speak about things and they'd be like, should I leave my church because they're not egalitarian?
00:18:14.240 --> 00:18:16.240
And like, what do you feel called and led to do?
00:18:16.400 --> 00:18:24.160
If they're an MDiv and they feel like compelled to teach and preach, like that is their heartbeat, that was not mine.
00:18:24.240 --> 00:18:30.400
But if that is their heartbeat, then I'm like, yes, then you need to be in a church that equips and empowers that you can use all of your gifts.
00:18:30.559 --> 00:18:40.240
But if you're what you feel called and led to do is not to that extent, but is within your church's theological framework, then try that first.
00:18:41.200 --> 00:18:43.680
Yeah, well, I think that's it.
00:18:44.240 --> 00:18:45.920
Yes, and why not ask?
00:18:46.160 --> 00:18:48.319
And a lot of things, and we might get into this.
00:18:48.400 --> 00:18:53.200
Um, you asked one of your questions from the planning was, you know, what are some barriers for women?
00:18:53.359 --> 00:19:07.759
I think some of it is that women don't ask, and the staff around them assume that they don't want it, want the next level of leadership, or that they aren't interested, or they look at women like me that came out of the marketplace and they're not looking.
00:19:08.000 --> 00:19:10.880
Conventional churches aren't looking at women from the marketplace.
00:19:11.039 --> 00:19:15.839
And I coach women that typically go into ministry, not in the traditional way.
00:19:15.920 --> 00:19:34.319
Like you might have, I'm guessing why I don't know you well, but I'm guessing that you probably went through had a calling sometime in your life, went through Bible, you know, college or college and then seminary, and then you became a youth pastor, maybe, then an adult pastor, and eventually you're now the lead pastor, something to that effect.
00:19:34.559 --> 00:19:35.200
You got me pegged.
00:19:35.440 --> 00:19:40.400
I went straight from college to church ministry in youth, did that for a long time, moved into adult ministry.
00:19:40.799 --> 00:19:42.720
The only career I've ever had.
00:19:42.799 --> 00:19:44.240
I this is the only church I've ever been at.
00:19:44.319 --> 00:19:44.720
So yeah.
00:19:44.960 --> 00:19:47.119
So that is the classic trajectory, right?
00:19:47.279 --> 00:19:50.400
And a lot of men fit fit that, and which is lovely, right?
00:19:50.480 --> 00:19:51.839
That they have that clarity.
00:19:52.319 --> 00:19:59.759
What you find with women, um, high-level staff leaders, we're talking your director, pastor, people you'd want to equip for those roles.
00:19:59.920 --> 00:20:11.279
I'm not talking necessarily your um kind of your helper types, but more the ones that are in higher positions of spiritual authority and leadership, um, are people are women that are come, have developed those gifts in other places.
00:20:11.519 --> 00:20:17.440
Like I developed them as a mother and as a lawyer and being in boardrooms and those things.
00:20:17.599 --> 00:20:27.119
Um, there's a woman I coach, a really large church in the Midwest, and she has all this insecurity about can I be a pastor, a discipleship pastor?
00:20:27.200 --> 00:20:28.880
Like she's been a Christian for a long time.
00:20:29.039 --> 00:20:32.720
I'm like, wait, you led a team of like thousands.
00:20:32.880 --> 00:20:36.000
Like, what makes you wonder about your leadership?
00:20:36.160 --> 00:20:43.119
So part of my work is so fun to translate their leadership skills that God's given that they've exercised in the marketplace.
00:20:43.279 --> 00:20:48.720
And then go, what could that look like if you exercise that in the church space?
00:20:49.039 --> 00:21:03.279
And she's once like that got unlocked in her, like she's just doing so great, having such joy, and getting more and more um responsibility because her executive pastor sees the capacity that she's developed.
00:21:03.599 --> 00:21:08.960
And women have developed this in PTAs, in juggling their kids, mom's life.
00:21:09.119 --> 00:21:12.960
I mean, like, there's so many other gifts that don't come through the traditional method.
00:21:13.039 --> 00:21:20.240
And so one of the things, if if your church wants to find women to do things, because a lot of times the men are like, oh, we would have women, but there aren't any.
00:21:20.480 --> 00:21:22.640
Like, I don't, I don't buy that.
00:21:22.799 --> 00:21:25.680
You know, God gives us people for the harvest.
00:21:25.759 --> 00:21:28.640
So you haven't looked hard enough and they are there.
00:21:29.039 --> 00:21:29.359
Yeah.
00:21:29.680 --> 00:21:30.400
Well, that's good.
00:21:30.559 --> 00:21:44.160
And I, you know, I think one of the things I hope that everybody can agree on in this conversation, uh, wherever you land theologically on exactly what positions are open to women, is that the job of the church leadership is to equip the saints for the work of the ministry.
00:21:44.319 --> 00:21:44.640
Yes.
00:21:44.960 --> 00:21:51.039
And that uh every complimentarian needs to know that that is men and women.
00:21:51.200 --> 00:21:59.839
Uh, you know, and so whatever your leadership structure, you know, our job is to be uh helping women thrive in using how God created them and how he's gifted them.
00:22:00.240 --> 00:22:09.440
them to uh to bless the church and that our churches are lacking if we're really only doing that for the men in our church and not really doing that for the women as well.
00:22:09.599 --> 00:22:13.680
And so uh, you know, I appreciate the kind things that you had to say about our paper.
00:22:13.839 --> 00:22:19.200
I think, you know, from where I'm sitting right now, uh, we just kind of finished the easy part, which is getting the paper.
00:22:20.079 --> 00:22:27.279
And and now, you know, we need, we need to get after the task of living it out and of actually doing what we say we want to do.
00:22:27.440 --> 00:22:39.759
And so I wonder if we can go maybe into a little bit more of that of uh for churches who recognize like our our culture and what's actually happening isn't really lining up with what we say we want and what we say we believe.
00:22:40.000 --> 00:22:44.960
What have you seen from the inside of what is causing that to happen?
00:22:45.039 --> 00:22:47.119
What what do churches need to change?
00:22:47.200 --> 00:22:48.160
What do they need to look at?
00:22:48.319 --> 00:22:58.000
How do they need to be talking differently, thinking differently about uh equipping women and utilizing women in uh in whatever roles are available in their church context.
00:22:58.160 --> 00:23:06.640
Uh what would you want somebody in my chair to know and and to have my eyes on that I might be blind to yeah oh my gosh that's such a great question.
00:23:06.799 --> 00:23:15.519
I think first off the fact that you're asking the question puts you way ahead of most churches because you're asking how can I equip and empower?
00:23:15.680 --> 00:23:16.960
I think that would be number one.
00:23:17.200 --> 00:23:23.839
Get curious how can I do this if how to make what we say we believe align up with what we're actually doing.
00:23:24.319 --> 00:23:28.319
And I think you do that by being willing to take some hits.
00:23:28.559 --> 00:23:42.079
Okay when you guys announce your white paper you're gonna have you're an old church like you're gonna have some people um it's I mean old as an established right so you're not you don't have a five year church where you work planting it and you can kind of shape it as you go.
00:23:42.240 --> 00:23:46.960
You have a history and it's deep and rich and so you have multiple generations.
00:23:47.200 --> 00:23:55.359
I think that also causes so then for example when um I became licensed I put it back when I was on Facebook.
00:23:55.519 --> 00:24:10.160
I had put my um uh my lanyard which had our key card and it now said pastor and I had shared on on Facebook just like I can't believe the journey God's had me on and what an honor um it is to be able to serve now.
00:24:10.319 --> 00:24:16.079
Nothing about what I do changes, but now I have I feel the weight of that responsibility.
00:24:16.240 --> 00:24:19.599
There's a spiritual weight beyond when I was an executive director.
00:24:19.759 --> 00:24:22.079
So I kind of wrote about it with that picture.
00:24:22.240 --> 00:24:27.440
And then one of the senior leaders said to me I really wish you hadn't made it public.
00:24:27.920 --> 00:24:39.920
And I and I was really hurt because I said I thought we were celebrating this like I'm the first in like 20 years and I actually am visible and I'm my hands are all over a lot of different things.
00:24:40.079 --> 00:24:44.720
I'm on the pulpit just allowed to preach and do announcements like people know that.
00:24:44.880 --> 00:25:03.759
So I was really hurt and his point was now we just invited people who are on the naysayer side to then you know we have to now defend ourselves and I said well the elders said this is the work you've already been doing and they unanimously voted this.
00:25:03.920 --> 00:25:13.839
So I'm like well don't you shouldn't have voted it if you weren't up for the fight because the fight's coming and so I said that really disappoints me because and I feel like I have to apologize.
00:25:14.000 --> 00:25:30.480
I'm like that I didn't even ask to be licensed like you guys came to me with this and so I think I would say if you are going to elevate women um to whatever un role that is newer in your church context that hasn't been seen before even calling them director kind of could be a a problem.
00:25:30.880 --> 00:25:46.240
Maybe having them as an usher or mission leader could be a problem or just because it's new and untested whoever is doing that whether you're the lead the executive pastor the ministry leader be prepared for some criticism and then be prepared to back it up with support.
00:25:46.559 --> 00:27:14.319
Yeah I mean one thing you've noticed um and we've had a position that was written on women in leadership it was not widely published and so it was uh not widely known in the church and and so what I walked into was um uh a culture where I think a lot of the norms and uh the beliefs about women in leadership were um they kind of felt like unwritten rules or things yes yeah that weren't talked about openly um and it wasn't necessarily that anybody was hiding anything but it just it wasn't being proactively led and and put forward and and as I even before our our position uh changed somewhat um as I just tried to invite women into areas of leadership where teaching where it was already allowed uh it just hadn't been happening what I what I saw firsthand was the way that these women were processing that invite recognizing a reality which is that if the leadership isn't public and talking about what they're doing and why um it's not that the controversy doesn't happen or that it goes away it's that it happens really with the women the women are the ones who have to pay the price they're the ones who have to have the conversations with the people who disagree or don't think it should be happening uh even more so than the conversation with the leaders and from my perspective I mean it's it is our job as the leaders to be the ones who are public who are clear who are the ones who are having the controversy come to us first.
00:27:14.559 --> 00:27:20.400
And uh you know it's not it's not the women or our congregation's job to defend our position on what it is.
00:27:20.480 --> 00:27:21.680
It's it's our job.
00:27:21.920 --> 00:27:23.359
And so we're trying to do that now.
00:27:23.519 --> 00:27:38.559
You know we're recording this podcast as a part of what we're doing you know we're not hiding and um and we haven't done we haven't had our our QA yet uh as we're having this conversation but by the time it's released we'll have had a public you know QA with our church to invite anybody to come and ask us about our position.
00:27:38.880 --> 00:28:12.960
Um but yeah I just I resonate with that so much that you have what whatever you do wherever you want to go uh as the leader you have to you have to step up you have to be clear you owe it to your congregation you owe it to the women in your church in in particular um in the women I and the women listening like if if God has stirred your heart towards leadership and you know you're gonna be the first or only which was often my case in every space then you have to develop that um anchor.
00:28:13.119 --> 00:28:19.759
I don't want to say thicker skin because I think empathy and compassion come from sensitivity and openness to the spirit.
00:28:19.920 --> 00:28:28.880
So I there were times I prayed for thicker skin as as criticism um came up but you just have to recognize you're gonna get a more spotlight on you.
00:28:29.839 --> 00:28:32.799
There's more assumptions made about you.
00:28:33.039 --> 00:28:36.400
Like there's questions about well who's taking care of her kids?
00:28:36.720 --> 00:28:43.920
Well you know it was that wasn't about me because I had a very flexible schedule which also would be a very concrete thing.
00:28:44.079 --> 00:28:53.839
If you want to include women higher levels of leadership you're gonna need to have some of a flexible schedule if they have young children or figure out a way because it's worth it they will work harder anyway.
00:28:54.000 --> 00:29:13.519
So they they had no trouble giving me a more flexible thing but that was an issue about some of the other women that didn't have that schedule kind of like well who's watching their kids well you know what that is not between for you to figure out congregant member this is between you know the woman and her spouse and um her boss to figure out how to make work.
00:29:13.599 --> 00:29:23.279
So I think sometimes we say no for women assuming that oh they're busy they have kids they have whatever um and we don't have that question for men.
00:29:23.359 --> 00:29:30.160
Whoever goes oh men have kids okay so maybe we should consider what we're burning them with, let them say no for themselves.
00:29:30.240 --> 00:29:34.160
They are adults invite them and see what God's stirring up in them.
00:29:34.240 --> 00:29:56.960
And I think our job again back to equipping the saints to do the work is that if we pay attention to what the women around us are doing and how God's leading them and growing them then we just come alongside that and then we just fan that into flame into more and not put artificial limits on but so within the construct of whatever theological background you have, there is place for more.
00:29:57.039 --> 00:30:29.519
And I think my senior pastor was really great at this he knew the constructs we had he himself wasn't fully egalitarian for a long time but he's like you're a terrific writer you're terrific at um oral communication a lot of different things and he goes I want that in um you know in the room and I want we have majority of our church is usually any church has more women anyway and he goes I want that voice I want to hear not just during Mother's Day planning Mother's Day but like all around like how is God speaking to you?
00:30:29.599 --> 00:30:30.160
What's he teaching?
00:30:30.319 --> 00:30:31.519
What do you see in this passage?
00:30:31.680 --> 00:30:37.119
Like I was invited to that space which is all men to be talking about hey what do I see there?
00:30:37.200 --> 00:30:50.559
And so he was able to use some of what God had put into me which I felt so valued by and I got to exercise some of those gifts without having it become a big deal in a way that that was outside of our theological framework.
00:30:50.720 --> 00:31:05.039
And I also got permission from our executive pastor who's who is my boss and I said if you ever send women to me after the Discover Our Church class and they have is they have a question about egalitarianism, why doesn't women get to do this?
00:31:05.200 --> 00:31:11.200
What or why do women get to do if they have any of those questions as the executive member I'm happy to field it.
00:31:11.359 --> 00:31:24.480
But you must know that if they ask me personally what do I believe, I will say what I believe and then I will say why I submit to what the church believes and I said are you guys okay with that because I can't be disingenuous about it.
00:31:24.720 --> 00:31:38.559
And they were like yes but at the same time I'm very clear on here's here's what what it is so I think it's a tightrope for women um in many ways because you kind of have to navigate some of the stuff that just doesn't come up for men.
00:31:38.960 --> 00:31:58.640
And the whole emotional the likability dilemma is kind of what Harvard Business Review calls it for women it's in corporate it's everywhere in our culture but for women it's extra in church it's extra it's the idea that you have to be both warm, nurturing and be you know assertive and commanding as a leader.
00:31:58.880 --> 00:32:02.240
And those two things are really hard to have together.
00:32:02.319 --> 00:32:11.119
So sometimes that was the criticism that I had to to dig in and go, okay Lord is this true about me is this you know and ask for feedback from people around me.
00:32:11.200 --> 00:32:13.279
Are you seeing this in me?
00:32:13.440 --> 00:32:18.240
How could I do this differently but then also not take criticism that wasn't from the Lord and wasn't true.
00:32:18.559 --> 00:32:58.960
Yeah yeah yeah I mean that is uh that is a conversation that I see so much more uh around women leaders than male um you know I uh no one really ever accuses me of not being warm enough and nurturing enough uh not because I'm overwhelmingly that way uh you know um it's just not the framework that people have when they think of you get points for it you get points for it white so can I tell you a quick story yes um because this could have taken me out but by God's grace it did not so early on I think it was my first year I'm like brand new right trying to figure out my way in this whole ministry world thing and I've been in vocation in you know as a volunteer for years but this was so different.
00:32:59.119 --> 00:33:03.920
So anyway so I do my first training and there's some elders sitting in the training because they're small group leaders.
00:33:04.720 --> 00:33:09.279
So they're okay to be taught in that training by me in that context.
00:33:09.359 --> 00:33:21.200
So they're in there and I'm nervous my first time and I'm talking through and part of what I shared as part of my introduction was how did I come to be convinced of you know of the love of the Lord and my testimony.
00:33:21.359 --> 00:33:27.839
So I share my testimony really briefly and then I get choked up because I'm talking about the grace of God and how he met me.
00:33:28.000 --> 00:33:31.279
And I get choked up it takes me a minute to collect myself.
00:33:31.440 --> 00:33:41.119
Okay so then the rest of the evening goes then one of the very influential elders tells my boss the executive pastor and says yeah Carolyn's really passionate about groups which is great.
00:33:41.519 --> 00:33:47.599
She seems really smart and knowledgeable about um strategy that's good but I think she's just too emotional.
00:33:48.880 --> 00:33:59.759
And I and then he relayed this to me and I was crushed because typically I mean I was a lawyer this was not I'm not that emotional in public studies.
00:34:00.240 --> 00:34:01.440
And then I was like what?
00:34:01.759 --> 00:34:11.840
And then what he said to me was he said you know I told him and I will tell you that when you stop getting emotional about the grace of God you shouldn't be in ministry.
00:34:12.639 --> 00:34:31.840
Yeah and that just I just anchored my heart into that and I stopped apologizing if I got emotional and in fact I started to I tell um women leaders in the coaching to say if they are more emotionally wired, if they find themselves getting emotional just to take a moment don't apologize for it.
00:34:32.000 --> 00:34:36.719
And sometimes emotion tells us something really important like that the issue really matters to us.
00:34:37.039 --> 00:34:52.719
And I said if men are wigging out because they're trying to fix you because they go into husband mode or something then you just explain I did this to the execute and I said you know when I start tearing up or getting emotional said that's not a signal for you to fix me or to like they're there, you know, pat me on the back.
00:34:52.800 --> 00:34:56.320
That's just your signal to know that I care deeply about what I'm talking about.
00:34:56.559 --> 00:35:03.679
And it's it's more out of conviction when I get worked up emotionally than it is about I'm sad and now I'm hurt.
00:35:03.760 --> 00:35:05.519
Like it's not about that.
00:35:05.760 --> 00:35:11.519
And so they're like oh that's helpful because they're you know they're nice guys and they want to like you know have peace.
00:35:11.840 --> 00:35:21.280
It's such a common pitfall of like a male dominated culture in leadership where you know uh emotion is bad like or scary we need to shut that down shouldn't be happening.
00:35:21.440 --> 00:36:17.760
Uh and yet the reality is that uh everybody in your in your training everybody on a Sunday morning in the congregation male and female are also created by God to be emotional creatures who resonate with emotion actually who need emotion uh as a part of uh the human experience that we're living that we're trying to learn that we're trying to dive into and so uh yeah I'm sorry that you had to experience that and I But it was good though because it was good though because it it anchored me and I think if you are gonna go the this more challenging route of being a woman of vocational ministry like you got to keep coming back to the well um and dig in maybe in a way that's even more um just more tender and vulnerable because you are gonna be a little more vulnerable um in even in egalitarian settings because our culture is so embedded in these biases and unconscious subconscious assumptions.
00:36:17.840 --> 00:36:22.000
And so you kind of almost have to have that and sometimes women are the hardest on each other.
00:36:22.239 --> 00:36:55.920
I had a client who told me that it's the wives and the that the lead pastor was so supportive but it was his wife that was not as supportive and that some of the other women were not as supportive and there was a sense of tension or um competition or why you why I mean it just got like ugly and I was like let's cut through all of that and go okay what is God calling you to what is your supervisor your pastor vision like what is that calling you to and do you have something to offer then you got to let that other stuff go because that'll just make you crazy.
00:36:56.239 --> 00:37:13.119
Yeah absolutely well let's let's actually talk to women in that context for a moment women who are going to step in and be one of the first to uh take a leadership role or to do something in a church that either by policy or just by culture has not been done by women in the past.
00:37:13.280 --> 00:37:38.239
You know like in our in our context here um you know we are still we still adopt a complementarian position uh not maybe the most common version of a complimentary position but still a complementarian position and really the two biggest changes are saying that uh that we're okay with the title of pastor being given to women and that we're okay with women teaching even from the pulpit on Sunday morning morning uh since we have non-elders doing that already.
00:37:38.960 --> 00:38:21.039
So at some point here uh in the future there's gonna be the first woman to do those things there'll be the first women to be called pastor at our church there's gonna be you know the first woman the first women to teach on a Sunday morning and uh if you're speaking to women in that kind of context uh what advice would you give them what what coaching what encouragement would you give somebody who's walking into that kind of situation yeah I'm so excited for your church by the way um and for the first woman to walk into that I guess I want to say don't be afraid because you can look at the Bible almost every leader in the Bible Wyatt like they wanted to say no or they just said no sometimes they said no multiple times.
00:38:21.280 --> 00:39:07.280
Yes yeah right and God still you know equipped them and the idea there's this um quote that uh the McKinsey did for did a study um it's a consulting group and they said that men are hired um women are hired for what they can do men are hired for what they can't um do later so men are hired for potential women are hired for demonstrated expertise I think that has to be flipped um women could need also need to be hired for potential because God has put that divine design in them and women have are carrying those leadership gifts so I think I have told women one get over yourself it's not about you it's about what the church needs and so if there was a woman Elderwood I'd be like honey it's it is about you but it's also really not about you.
00:39:07.360 --> 00:39:34.159
It's about God's doing in the kingdom and um you standing up and doing something for the first time there's a whole generation generations of women seeing that my I have two young two daughters and they're young adults now 25 and 27 and I am sad that they never got to see a woman preach from the pulpit until um because they grew up in our church right so until they got to college and they chose a church that that was egalitarian.
00:39:34.239 --> 00:39:38.159
Like they didn't get to see that um they didn't get to see me preach until the last few years.
00:39:38.400 --> 00:39:46.000
That's beencome part of what God's equipped me to do now which is so fun but such a heavy responsibility I would never want to do it every week like you do.
00:39:46.239 --> 00:39:49.760
But it's just fun to to kind of use those gifts in that way.
00:39:49.920 --> 00:39:56.480
And every time I do that people will um at other churches they will stop by and they'll be like I've never seen a woman do that.
00:39:56.639 --> 00:39:58.639
Like I feel like I could do that.
00:39:58.800 --> 00:40:10.639
Like that it gives them hope right so I think again for the woman to say hey when you're stepping into that role it's it's really about what is God calling our church to and how can I be part of that.
00:40:10.880 --> 00:40:15.119
Yeah and and then also develop a really strong support system.
00:40:15.679 --> 00:40:36.320
And you have to make sure don't step into that role unless your um your supervisor your church your boss whatever whoever is above is submitting to is going to have your back I've seen women um go out be pushed out there and not and and the pastor didn't support them and then they were then they just left because then there were just all that church damage.
00:40:36.400 --> 00:40:46.320
You know there's no church like church there's no pain like church pain and there's a lot of of people men and women who've been really hurt by bad um leaders within the church like that.
00:40:46.480 --> 00:40:54.559
So if they are going to go there make sure they're gonna support you out there as well and take the, you know, and and continue to be clear about it.
00:40:54.719 --> 00:41:10.400
But I think to have a support group I had a my small group knew I had a spiritual director would not have lasted in ministry without her and she specialized in um uh vocational ministry men and women so she knew the context really well so that was really helpful.
00:41:10.559 --> 00:41:28.800
I had um male pastors and I have to say they were all men outside of our church that were different ages um from like people I really respected that wrote the books and with the experts on the My Ministry to like young guys that I met at conferences that were like I want to learn from you and I'm like I want to learn from you.
00:41:29.039 --> 00:41:33.679
And so I had like a support group of sorts that was multi-generational.
00:41:33.840 --> 00:41:52.239
So I found support outside of my church some inside and I had the sweetest older I mean she was in her mid 80s when I became a pastor she was an elder's wife her husband was not egalitarian firmly against what was happening until he was like oh but it's Carolyn we already know what she can do.
00:41:52.320 --> 00:41:56.079
This doesn't seem risky that was his thought I can vote for this it doesn't seem risky.
00:41:56.159 --> 00:42:20.639
We already know her he'd led a small group under um my supervision for years so he didn't feel threatened by that and I think that would be the other piece to say do your work do it really well um not to prove it to anybody else but is work unto the Lord which then people you gain credibility and I think um one of I teach a leadership cohort for women and one of the things I talked about early on is the four types of authority.
00:42:20.800 --> 00:42:42.079
I don't know if you've heard of this so basically there's four types of authority and there's organizational position kind of positional authority by your title then there's a relational authority that's the influence who you have then there's expertise because you're very you know the topic you know that content um you actually become the authority and then there's a spiritual authority.
00:42:42.239 --> 00:42:53.519
And so I challenge women to figure out which lane are which of those authorities are you overleaning on and typically almost always it's the relational because that's what they're used to using because they haven't had the positional.
00:42:53.679 --> 00:42:56.719
So for some of them they can start using the positional.
00:42:56.880 --> 00:43:16.239
And so there were times where we would have someone from a really conservative church come to ours and they'd be like well we're not comfortable with submitting to Carolyn's leadership because she's a woman and um then my executive pastor would say well then you will not be leading a small group but you're welcome to to um be a leader in these other areas that are led by men.
00:43:16.559 --> 00:43:43.519
But if you're gonna lead a small group you will not be leading under and they were like whoa but that was positional is appropriate in that type of scenario right I didn't have to try to win them over relationally it was like this is our position we trust right and then eventually you want to be a place of spiritual authority always right but you kind of have to look through um and I would encourage women to figure out like how to use the different types of authority we have and be wise about when one is appropriate over another.
00:43:44.000 --> 00:43:57.920
And for a lot of people that were kind of more naysayers earlier on, I just waited and continued to serve them and love them the best I could and have conversations and hopefully win them over eventually.
00:43:58.079 --> 00:44:01.119
But the winning them over that's the Holy Spirit Job anyway.
00:44:01.440 --> 00:44:06.159
So I try to do what I can on my part and then allow God to do the rest.
00:44:06.320 --> 00:44:09.119
And I think that is probably my best encouragement.
00:44:09.519 --> 00:44:14.079
But to not be afraid, I just think so many women say no because they're like, I'm not this enough.
00:44:14.159 --> 00:44:14.559
I'm not.
00:44:14.719 --> 00:44:16.320
I said I wasn't spiritual enough.
00:44:16.480 --> 00:44:18.320
I wasn't biblically literate enough.
00:44:18.400 --> 00:44:19.920
And I'm like, okay, I grew up in the church.
00:44:20.000 --> 00:44:21.679
I didn't know the Bible pretty well.
00:44:21.840 --> 00:44:25.039
But I just, there was a lot of not enough, whatever that thing is.
00:44:25.199 --> 00:44:32.480
And a lot of times I hear women take themselves out of the equation and say, Oh, I was really flattered they asked me, but I'm not ex enough.
00:44:32.639 --> 00:44:34.800
And I'm like, God will equip the call.
00:44:35.039 --> 00:44:40.639
The ex part, um, you figure out, and then you figure how it works with your life.
00:44:41.760 --> 00:44:48.159
Well, it's a pretty good segue from what you said about making sure that your leadership is really gonna have your back.
00:44:48.239 --> 00:45:00.960
Uh, because I think the last question I'll I would love to dive into with you is just if we can kind of flip that script and say, okay, if you want to if if you could speak to uh the leadership over these women who are gonna step into these roles.
00:45:01.039 --> 00:45:19.199
So myself, our elders, and especially men who are in those roles of leading and supervising women leaders, uh, what would you have to say to us about um about supporting these uh women leaders, many of whom are young, many of whom have not had this kind of experience in the church because it hasn't been available.
00:45:19.360 --> 00:45:21.840
Uh what what what do we need to hear most?
00:45:22.480 --> 00:45:25.360
Yeah, I think you ask them first, what do you need?
00:45:25.679 --> 00:45:26.639
Um, what do you need?
00:45:26.719 --> 00:45:28.400
And that's true about any development, right?
00:45:28.559 --> 00:45:32.960
Anytime you develop anybody, you're gonna try to see where are you strong, where are you not.
00:45:33.119 --> 00:45:39.199
Maybe you do give them some coaching or a cohort or a mentor or somebody within the church that can help them with that.
00:45:39.360 --> 00:45:42.320
But initially, I think you start off saying, where do you feel?
00:45:42.480 --> 00:45:44.400
And you spend that time developing.
00:45:44.559 --> 00:45:46.000
Development takes takes a long time.
00:45:46.159 --> 00:45:47.039
I mean, Jesus what?
00:45:47.119 --> 00:45:49.280
He picked three out of the 12 out of the 70.
00:45:49.440 --> 00:45:51.519
Like, so I would say three things.
00:45:51.760 --> 00:45:54.079
Identify who the who it is.
00:45:54.239 --> 00:46:02.400
I'm not saying um at all, and I hope nobody misunderstands, I'm not saying, you know, you need to stick women everywhere, whether or not they're qualified.
00:46:02.559 --> 00:46:03.599
Absolutely not.
00:46:03.760 --> 00:46:05.840
There's churches that are so in a rush.
00:46:05.920 --> 00:46:16.880
Um, back during COVID when this was like happening in our culture generally, where the DI stuff was happening and people were in a rush to put women in those positions because they didn't want to get canceled.
00:46:17.039 --> 00:46:22.960
Um, that was less in the church world, but there was some like, oh, there's a woman, let's go get them, or there's a person of color, let's go get them.
00:46:23.119 --> 00:46:26.639
I'm not talking about um presentational tokenism.
00:46:26.719 --> 00:46:32.159
I think that's actually hurts more the cause for women long-term, so much more.
00:46:32.320 --> 00:46:41.360
We're talking about people you identify because they have spiritual leadership, they have spiritual um authority, they've demonstrated it by how they serve, they have character.
00:46:41.519 --> 00:46:47.519
So the same qualifications you would look for in, you know, in anybody in that position of leadership.
00:46:47.679 --> 00:46:54.480
If you're looking for it in a man, then look for the same things in a woman and don't put additional barriers on for the woman, like say no for them.
00:46:54.559 --> 00:46:55.519
Like, don't.
00:46:55.599 --> 00:47:13.679
And and I've heard from younger women, especially attractive single women, one of the big barriers is um this fear that sometimes in church world that they're gonna be a to quote temptress, or the fear that um some of the Billy Graham rule, for example, has been a barrier traditionally.
00:47:13.920 --> 00:47:25.840
And my simple answer to the Billy Graham rule, which basically says, um, and really I'm so glad Billy Graham had that role because I think he needed it for the amount he was traveling, is basically that you won't be alone with a woman, not your wife.
00:47:26.079 --> 00:47:28.639
Well, the simple answer of that is just bring another person.
00:47:28.800 --> 00:47:30.000
It's not hard.
00:47:30.079 --> 00:47:30.800
Yeah, right?
00:47:31.039 --> 00:47:35.920
But I've had um, I did this, I've done this talk for men and women working together in the church.
00:47:36.000 --> 00:47:43.519
I've done a workshop around it, and then I will separate men and women and I will sit with the men and I'll say, What are what are the concerns you have?
00:47:43.760 --> 00:47:48.960
And inevitably someone will say, Because I said this is confidential, no one from your church is here.
00:47:49.039 --> 00:47:51.599
It's usually a conference setting, so it's more vulnerable.
00:47:51.760 --> 00:47:52.719
And I said, What is it?
00:47:52.800 --> 00:48:01.599
And then usually it's somebody in saying, you know, my wife is not comfortable with me uh investing and developing leadership for a woman, mentoring a woman.
00:48:01.760 --> 00:48:03.440
Um, and so what do I do with that?
00:48:03.679 --> 00:48:05.280
And so that's a legitimate thing.
00:48:05.360 --> 00:48:09.280
Okay, then you have that's an issue about your marriage that's really separate from the woman.
00:48:09.679 --> 00:48:17.599
But a lot of times the women in the work um leadership position feel like they have to somehow make it okay.
00:48:17.679 --> 00:48:21.519
And it's like, no, the men have to make that okay within their marriage.
00:48:21.679 --> 00:48:32.400
And if the answer is, oh yeah, I'm not comfortable with you being alone with this person or whoever, whatever, um, then you honor that in your marriage and you figure out other ways to equip that person.
00:48:32.639 --> 00:48:34.639
Maybe bring other people into that.
00:48:34.800 --> 00:48:40.159
Um, but and then, you know, one of the tip I usually give the women leaders is, you know, I did this.
00:48:40.320 --> 00:48:50.320
If you're ever in a context where the wife is there, ignore the husband, get to know the wife, make them your friend, like let them know you so they're not threatened by you, if that's an issue.
00:48:50.480 --> 00:48:54.880
And typically it's only an issue a lot of times for the younger and unmarried.
00:48:55.119 --> 00:48:58.719
I think once you get older, it's really not an issue for a lot, anyways.
00:48:59.039 --> 00:49:01.840
The joke, like with men, like, okay, it's just not an issue for all of you.
00:49:01.920 --> 00:49:03.760
It's only gonna be an issue for some of you.
00:49:03.920 --> 00:49:23.039
Um, but the Billy Graham rule, I mean, that often comes up and they just want to be really above reproach and they want to like make sure there's not because for sure we've seen too many, right, white, of leaders have got taken out by, you know, what looks misperceptions, even if they are not doing anything wrong, that could be a thing, then just take another person.
00:49:23.199 --> 00:49:32.960
So just look at the practices, the unwritten rules, as you said, and go, which of these unwritten rules are not applying even-handedly across men and women?
00:49:33.199 --> 00:49:40.159
If you're gonna take all the men, I had this in a church, all the um the lead pastor took all the men out for coffee on a regular rotation.
00:49:40.239 --> 00:49:41.840
He wanted to equip and develop them.
00:49:42.000 --> 00:49:43.679
He never took any of the women out.
00:49:43.840 --> 00:49:45.280
And I said, Why is that?
00:49:45.440 --> 00:49:47.039
Because what message is that sending?
00:49:47.199 --> 00:49:48.960
They're also directors and pastors.
00:49:49.039 --> 00:49:53.840
This what and he's like, Well, you know, they that's for other women to empower.
00:49:53.920 --> 00:49:56.960
And I said, but you're there's only one lead pastor, and it's you.
00:49:57.199 --> 00:50:11.599
So you can call them together in in a group if you like, but it sends a message and make sure the message you're sending by your behavior, who's invited into a room, invited to a meeting, who's not invited, when possible, lean towards inclusion.
00:50:11.679 --> 00:50:20.079
So you identify and you invite, let them say no, let them choose for themselves, um, and figure out ways they can still give input.
00:50:20.159 --> 00:50:22.480
It doesn't have to be like you invite them to your preaching team forever.
00:50:22.559 --> 00:50:25.679
It can be, hey, for this next teaching series, try it out.
00:50:25.760 --> 00:50:28.960
I think for the men, don't be scared to just experiment with it.
00:50:29.119 --> 00:50:35.440
If you think somebody has kind of more of that theological bent, has an interest, invite them in.
00:50:35.519 --> 00:50:38.000
And you can even tell them, hey, you're the first woman in here.
00:50:38.079 --> 00:50:41.360
I know it can be a little awkward, you know, you can just get the lay the land first.
00:50:41.440 --> 00:50:42.639
You don't have to say anything.
00:50:42.800 --> 00:50:44.079
Let me know when you want to say more.
00:50:44.159 --> 00:50:47.840
You kind of have to coach them step by step if they're the first and only.
00:50:48.079 --> 00:50:51.920
Um, and so when you are inviting them, then you have to be willing to invest.
00:50:52.239 --> 00:50:59.440
And by investing, it is that it's that coaching, it's the checking in, like, hey, that conversation, when they made that comment, that was kind of sexist.
00:50:59.599 --> 00:51:00.320
How did that hit you?
00:51:00.400 --> 00:51:01.360
Are you okay with it?
00:51:01.519 --> 00:51:03.199
Or is that something you'd like me to address?
00:51:03.360 --> 00:51:04.400
Do you want to address it?
00:51:04.559 --> 00:51:06.960
Like, there needs to be a lot more conversation.
00:51:07.039 --> 00:51:10.079
And sometimes the guys tell me, oh, it's just so messy.
00:51:10.159 --> 00:51:10.960
I just don't want to do it.
00:51:11.119 --> 00:51:13.599
I'm like, but then the kingdom misses out.
00:51:14.000 --> 00:51:17.920
Um, then all the gifts are not brought to the table and Satan wins.
00:51:18.079 --> 00:51:19.360
So is that what you want?
00:51:19.440 --> 00:51:29.599
I mean, typically I tend to joke with them, but like, I know it's messier, I know it's harder, I know there's more potential pitfalls than staying with the status quo.
00:51:29.760 --> 00:51:32.800
But the upside why it is just so great.
00:51:32.960 --> 00:51:35.920
You will have so much more engagement, especially the younger generation.
00:51:36.079 --> 00:51:36.800
They will see that.
00:51:36.960 --> 00:51:46.639
They will see if you have a woman preaching from the same passage as a man, they're going to have some different life experiences that are going to be different and come out differently.
00:51:46.719 --> 00:51:52.239
And that's going to resonate with an audience that maybe wouldn't resonate as easily with you.
00:51:52.400 --> 00:51:58.239
And so, why wouldn't we want more of that for the kingdom's sake and for the church's sake?
00:51:58.400 --> 00:52:02.320
And so I think for the men to kind of go, oh, why do I have any unwritten rules?
00:52:02.480 --> 00:52:05.760
And to have that self-awareness around it.
00:52:05.920 --> 00:52:13.360
I've also done surveys for men for a church setting staff, and I've sat with men and said, okay, here's what the women have said.
00:52:13.519 --> 00:52:18.079
And I'm like, you guys could do this yourself and ask them, what is it, your experience as a woman here?
00:52:18.239 --> 00:52:20.480
And then it'd be something like Jeremy, he's your executive pastor.
00:52:20.559 --> 00:52:24.559
He could say, and they seem very comfortable with him to say, Hey, what's your experience been like?
00:52:24.639 --> 00:52:26.559
And how can we support you better?
00:52:26.800 --> 00:52:36.320
Like that question, just being asked that alone, puts you ahead and shares your heart and your willingness to back it up and say, hey, here is the paper.
00:52:36.400 --> 00:52:42.880
I'm not trying to play hide the ball so that people think there's leadership and it's okay, but then there's not.
00:52:43.039 --> 00:52:51.119
Like, I think have the integrity of that position and go, yeah, we're all exploring this together and walk into it step by step together.
00:52:51.199 --> 00:52:52.239
And it's gonna be messy.
00:52:52.320 --> 00:52:53.440
You're gonna make some mistakes.
00:52:53.519 --> 00:52:55.920
You might not pick the right people to invest in.
00:52:56.000 --> 00:53:05.199
And we don't know what investment might look like, but that should not scare us from um from having the church be more fully what it was designed to be together.
00:53:05.519 --> 00:53:05.760
Yeah.
00:53:05.920 --> 00:53:08.719
Well, Carolyn, I think that's a great place to leave us today.
00:53:08.960 --> 00:53:09.760
Thank you so much.
00:53:09.920 --> 00:53:13.760
I this has been really helpful for me, and you know, I've got a lot of work ahead.
00:53:13.920 --> 00:53:17.920
Uh, and I am gonna come back to this conversation, I think, multiple times.
00:53:18.000 --> 00:53:18.719
Uh, so thank you.
00:53:18.800 --> 00:53:21.119
I know it'll be helpful to those who are listening as well.
00:53:21.280 --> 00:53:23.039
And we just really appreciate you joining us.
00:53:23.360 --> 00:53:25.280
Oh my gosh, thank you so much for having me.
00:53:25.360 --> 00:53:27.679
As you can say, I'm I'm just a tad passionate about this.
00:53:28.079 --> 00:53:28.639
Oh, great.
00:53:28.800 --> 00:53:37.280
Yeah, it's good and White, I I so appreciate your heart and you know, just how you're approaching this with so much wisdom and thought.
00:53:37.440 --> 00:53:39.360
And I like that you're going slow.
00:53:39.519 --> 00:53:56.159
Like I understand you've been at the church a few years now, but you got the lay the lance, the land where you grew up, and you're not, I think if you're gonna, if this is a topic that's going to cause some ripples, then to to be really thoughtful and take time and make sure you can stand behind what you're what you're saying.
00:53:56.320 --> 00:53:57.599
I think that's really wise.
00:53:57.679 --> 00:53:59.039
So I just really commend you.
00:53:59.119 --> 00:54:04.800
I'm excited to see how Alderwood does this, and I think that can be a role model for other churches to follow.
00:54:04.880 --> 00:54:06.239
So thank you for inviting me.
00:54:06.320 --> 00:54:06.800
It's so fun.
00:54:07.280 --> 00:54:07.440
So much.
00:54:07.599 --> 00:54:08.480
Yeah, we'll keep you posted.
00:54:08.559 --> 00:54:10.000
We'll know how it goes.
00:54:11.199 --> 00:54:11.840
Okay, thanks.
00:54:11.920 --> 00:54:12.480
See you later.
00:54:12.719 --> 00:54:13.599
Okay, you too.
00:54:13.679 --> 00:54:14.480
Bye-bye.
00:54:20.239 --> 00:54:22.239
Well, once again, that was Carolyn Takeda.
00:54:22.480 --> 00:54:29.280
And if you are interested in following along with her, seeing her work in more depth, you can find her online at Carolyn Takeda.com.
00:54:29.360 --> 00:54:32.320
We'll throw a link into our show notes with that.
00:54:32.559 --> 00:54:34.480
I hope that this was an encouragement to you.
00:54:34.559 --> 00:54:50.480
And wherever you find yourself on this conversation from a theological standpoint, uh, I hope that this is more just practical and helpful of how in every different kind of context we can see women flourishing in our churches and using the gifts that God's given them to bless our people.
00:54:50.639 --> 00:54:57.360
And so, uh, yeah, if this has been thought provoking for you, share it with a friend and we appreciate that.
00:54:57.519 --> 00:55:00.400
We'll see you next time when we get back here for Native Exiles.