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Welcome to Murder Junction everyone. This week on the show,
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we are talking to former RAF military policeman turned met
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detective turned best selling crime writer Neil Lancaster. Neil, welcome
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to the show.
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Thank you for having me, gentlemen. It's wonderful to be here.
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All right, Lil Neil, that's the first time somebody's called
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us a called us a gentleman.
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Now we've been called many many things, ladies.
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One thing, but not a gentleman, which is right. But
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there you are, so, Neil, How the devil are you?
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My friend?
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I'm doing really well despite having to have multiple surgeries
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this year. You might see that my amazing good looks
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have been stymied by a big scar here.
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Oh it's not the plastic surgery pretty much getting plastic
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surgery as well. You know that, don't you? You are
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perfection fast. Look at that here? What is a little
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flick to it today? Have you been using timidate again?
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What tim if?
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I'm very jealous of you two with your lovely batchy hair,
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whereas I have this failing.
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But your plastic surgery has made you look like George Clooney.
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That's the difference.
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Yeah, kind and tell us tell us, why are you're
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having this plastic surgery?
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Can you tell us it's a It was a little
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bit of a too much sun not putting sun cream
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on a bit of a base or cell. But it's gone.
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It's fine. It took him three years to take it
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out off me, so I can't have been that urgent.
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Let's let's start, let's let's get let's just get the
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show on the road. So let's do that.
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Let's stop talking about my injuries.
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Do you want to ask a serious question?
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I want people I won't neel to tell us a
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bit about himself, where he grew up, where he now
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lives or might not be living for much longer, etcetera, etcetera.
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Okay, right, well, I was born in Liverpool, much as
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you won't hear it.
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Oh shut up, no, I was.
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I grew up the only member of my household that
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didn't sound like Luke of Esti.
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In the same way.
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In fact, here we go our mutual friend Imran, the
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mood where you pretend to like him or something like that.
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I know, you know, sometimes you don't even pretend. Obviously,
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my accent bears no resemblance to my upbringing. In the
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same way, that Imran's accent. Of course, he was born
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in Liverpool himself. In fact, we were born one street
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away from each other, which we didn't realize. His cousin
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I think it is lived in the same street that
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I was born in.
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So how come he sounds really posh and you sound
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like a member of the Baker Street are regulars?
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Well, this is true and obviously Imran turned up at court.
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He's told this story to me one day going and
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walked in and goes, eh, Jana, I'd like to make
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you know a supposition. Oh you know, and mister mamod,
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it's all very very impressive, but it's no use of
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the jury. Can't tuk the standard and I should.
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I should clarify for our American and foreign listeners that
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what you just did there was what is known as
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the Scouse accent, which is how people from Liverpool often sound.
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But not everybody.
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Well we have, we have examples. We carry on.
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So you were born in this I was born in Liverpool.
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My parents moved down to seven Oaks in Kent when
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I was just a wee baby, and I grew up
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in seven Oaks in Kent on a really rather nice
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counsel estate, had a lovely time that failed all my
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exams at school, literally all of them, and then age seventeen,
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joined the RAF, where I stayed for six years. I
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was a military policeman, just like Jack Reacher. Ah, yes,
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of course, almost exactly like that.
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The character is based on you.
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I think probably certainly we should ask Lee Child about it.
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Really, so you basically went around punching people very hard
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in the face until they confessed.
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Kind of but not at all. I was actually I
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was actually a dog handler. I was just guarded nuclear sights.
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It was really boring.
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What was the dog called? Did you have a favorite dog?
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Had a dog called Champ who was actually quite a
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nice dog, which was wasn't what you really wanted. But
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then I got another one called Prince, who was evil
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and wanted to kill everything. But yeah, that was.
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It, like Prince the rock Star.
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Then, right, almost exactly the same.
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So in one sense, in one sentence, you've gone, in
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my mind from Jack Reacher to Tom Hanks in the
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film K nine.
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I'll go with that as well. I'm happy with any
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of it.
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In my head, you were a Barbara woodhost.
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But anyway, okay, but now, so you did that for
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a while.
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I did that for six years and then I never
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joined the met Police.
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I left spies.
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When you have dogs and did you catch anybody?
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Oh? I could barely catch a cold. It was really freezing,
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and it was really freezing. It was in Germany. It
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was a bit of Germany I was in most of
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the time. Was absolutely Baltic. And then the Falkland. Well
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it was the Baltic, wasn't It might as well have been.
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And then I spent time in the Falkland Islands walking
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around with me dog.
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Do you enter uplands? Yeah?
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I did.
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I did four months in the Falklands, which was a
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great That was a really good place. I really enjoyed that.
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How many how many nuclear facilities does the Falklands have
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for you to guard? None? None?
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You would say that, you have to say that.
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Of course I could tell you more, but you know,
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you know what that how that would end up in but.
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Would fall asleep? Carry on?
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Yeah? Oh yeah, you really were. And again nothing much happened.
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It was then it was the eighties. You know, there
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was a Cold war on, but nothing was actually happening.
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So we watched videos. I there was a time we
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could basically recite scarface out and top gun most of
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us could recite.
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That's really impressive that you managed to get your dogs
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to speak English.
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Spoke way better than me, that's for sure.
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They didn't have Sko accents. So so what then, what happens?
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When did you lose the Sko accent? Was it?
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I never had it? I never had accent.
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Well, even because you grew up in seven Orks.
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Yeah, my parents and my sisters, both my sisters are
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older than me, had Scouse accents, and I grew up
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sounding like I do now, like this sort of mix
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of a bit posh but a bit history.
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You know.
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I think I think you sound like somebody with a
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trust fund who's trying to hate it.
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Yeah, exactly, Tony Again, Tony Kent, super plummy, super posh.
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But just listen to some of the little things. When
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he says he didn't say girls, he still says girls.
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He says Gills. Isn't it Gils?
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Gills?
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Gee? Where's the Gills? That's two?
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And it's my birthday?
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Yeah, yeah, where it's the girls? It's my birthday, that's what.
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It's not even his birthday. And he's still working for
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the girls, isn't he?
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I know? That you went when you when you went
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into the MET, you were a covert operative. I think
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we can talk about this. Did you have on a
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new accent for that.
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No, you don't do that. You don't really do that
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because it's too.
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No, because you've got to be as real as possible,
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right because the thing.
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Yes, I mean I joined the MET in nineteen ninety
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and I did the usual thing, went into you know,
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uniform for a number of years, and then I went
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into the c I D.
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I was.
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I went into the standard CID working in Islington, and
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then I went to the Homicide Command, and then I
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was working on I was a covert unit within a
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homicy command which was offered proactive support to murder investigations.
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So the big one that we did with man hunts.
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Did a lot of man hunts. Oh wow, so people
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who had gone to ground or you know, it'd always
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come in on a Friday afternoon and you're thinking, I'm
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going to go home and you know, it's been a
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busy all week because the hours were insane. I barely
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saw my kids for five years. And the phone would
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go and they'd say, we've had a murder in Peckham.
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We think we know he's done it, we can't find him,
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and we've just pegged his just tagged his phone going
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up the one you try and find him, get him back.
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So that that was a big part of it, which
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was good fun. And the other one was proactive investigations
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against people we believe were involved in homicide, so people
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we think had probably got away with murders, people we
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thought were had a predisposition to kill, so you know,
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big time drug dealers. I was also on the surveillance
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team behind Levi Bellfield, the fairly notorious serial killer who
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murdered Marsha McDonald, amily de Lagrange and later on we
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found out Millie Dowler, and a number of other jobs.
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Towards the end of my career, I was on an
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organized immigration crime team. I don't know you saw in
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this all in the news at the moment about immigration
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advisors advising their clients to pretend to be gay so
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that they you know, try and resist the being deported.
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And these were registered immigration advisors and solicitors and things
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like that who were helping them with that. That was
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my investigating, That was my job for about five years.
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Had some you know, fairly big success with that. With
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some corrupt solicitors and things like that that I managed
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to get locked up for facilitating breaches in immigration crime
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things like that, So yeah, I did. I stayed in
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the MET for twenty five years and then I retired
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in twenty fifteen, and for some reason I moved from
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Saint Aubans and we moved six hundred miles north to
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the Highlands of.
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Scotland, which, yeah, why did that?
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It was a number of things. Really, I decided I
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wanted to leave the MET. I was unwell for a
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little while. I had a condition called sarcoidosis, which is
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potentially quite serious, but I got lucky and it went
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into remission. But it kind of changed my attitude. I'd
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been all about work. I was always at work. I
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was always the big next job that I wanted to do,
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the next big villain. I wanted to catch the next
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big surveillance operation. Or I was planning to bug someone's
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house and there's a load of work involved in that.
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Or there was a new contract killing case coming in. Oh,
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that's so exciting. But then I got ill and I thought,
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why am I doing this? Why am I killing myself
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at work? Why am I literally killing myself at work.
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Why am I waking up at four in the morning
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stressed out about all the things I've got to do
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and et cetera, et cetera. And so I said, I said, Mark,
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I can retire. I could retire at forty nine because
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of my military service and things like that. And me
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and my wife we love we've fallen in love with
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the highlights of Scotland because's got some family up here.
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And we said, just do it, and we did it.
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We just we moved up ten years.
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Wonderful. That's really really, it's great that you one you
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realized you caught yourself and that you had the flexibility
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to do that and to enjoy freedom and to enjoy
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your life.
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And of course that led to the next chapter, which
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is what we're here to talk about, which is your segue.
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See how we were we're professional, honestly, seamless, and let's
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talk about your debut, Dead Man's Grave. And I should say,
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for those who don't know, this is a police procedural
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series which has become incredibly successful in a very short
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period of time at a time when police procedurals are
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apparently it's quite tough to launch a new series so
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you've done amazingly well.
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Tell us about the debut.
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Well, actually it's not my debut. I wrote three books
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before that. I believe I wrote it.
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I did.
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I wrote three books of the very small publisher that
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were kind of sort of thriller the stroke police procedures,
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but more thriller than police procedures. They were with a
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very small publisher, so they didn't get massive attention, but
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they did sell quite well. I mean they still sell,
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you know, I quite loo.
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We've got a sacar researcher Aber who is the researcher.
249
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Yeah, But then I tell you what, I'd written these
250
00:12:27.440 --> 00:12:29.600
three books that were dis very small publisher. I mean,
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I think I'm really the only one of their authors
252
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who ever made a couple of quid.
253
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Out of it.
254
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But then I was it was Christmas. This is about now,
255
00:12:38.360 --> 00:12:40.120
you know. I'll stick with the with the plot and
256
00:12:40.320 --> 00:12:45.200
with the timeline. Here. I was at some friends house
257
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at Christmas in twenty nineteen, so not that long before
258
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COVID hit and I got chatted to an old guy
259
00:12:51.320 --> 00:12:54.080
who'd been a police officer in Scotland during the sixties,
260
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and he said, you're a writer, aren't there. He goes yeah,
261
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he I love Scottish crime books. He goes. He was
262
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a scott He was as Scottish as it's possible to be,
263
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but you know, with his accent. But he had lived
264
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in Australia for fifty years. But anyway, he was so
265
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keen to tell me, he goes, I've got to tell
266
00:13:09.840 --> 00:13:11.720
you a story of that be a good idea for
267
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a book. Now you've both heard those words and you've
268
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both gone, okay, carry on, all know what we're thinking.
269
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This is going to be crap.
270
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But it wasn't.
271
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It was a bagging story, he said. I went to
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this graveyard because I was researching my wife's family because
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they all herald from caith Ness. Now you'll know, I
274
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bet you know case Ness. It is properly wild, it
275
00:13:36.000 --> 00:13:39.519
is properly weak, he goes. I found this old graveyard.
276
00:13:39.759 --> 00:13:42.279
It wasn't attached to a chapel. It was this broken
277
00:13:42.320 --> 00:13:45.080
down graveyard with a dry stone wall around it, or
278
00:13:45.120 --> 00:13:47.000
a dry stone dik as they've called it up here,
279
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and it was mostly fallen down. The gates were all
280
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rusted and it was completely overgrown. But I went in
281
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because I heard this is where one of my wife's
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ancestors was buried. I went in and I found this
283
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grave on the ground and pulled all the undergrowth away
284
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from it, and it just said this grave never to
285
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be opened. It literally said those words, nothing else. He goes,
286
00:14:10.519 --> 00:14:11.960
do you think you can write a story with that?
287
00:14:12.039 --> 00:14:12.240
And that?
288
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Yeah?
289
00:14:14.480 --> 00:14:18.320
Absolutely? And I thought, I wonder if anyone's written about
290
00:14:18.360 --> 00:14:21.039
this before, so I asked. I thought, I didn't know
291
00:14:21.120 --> 00:14:24.879
that many people on the Scottish crime scene at this stage,
292
00:14:24.879 --> 00:14:27.120
so I thought I'll ask. So I asked Lynn Anderson
293
00:14:27.159 --> 00:14:30.399
and she said, I've not heard of that, but if
294
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you don't use it, can I? And I went no.
295
00:14:35.519 --> 00:14:37.399
So I came up with the idea for dead Man's Grave,
296
00:14:37.440 --> 00:14:39.639
which was going to be a contemporary crime thriller.
297
00:14:40.000 --> 00:14:42.120
And did you go up and see that grave? Did
298
00:14:42.120 --> 00:14:42.799
you ever find that?
299
00:14:43.120 --> 00:14:46.440
I did? Yeah. The thing is, as I was writing it,
300
00:14:46.440 --> 00:14:48.000
I couldn't really go up there because we were all
301
00:14:48.039 --> 00:14:51.720
locked down. Once it had been lifted, I went up
302
00:14:51.720 --> 00:14:54.600
there and it literally is exactly how this guy told me.
303
00:14:55.039 --> 00:14:58.799
It was up just outside a place called Lathern, which
304
00:14:58.840 --> 00:15:02.039
is just off the a writing the wild to case Ness,
305
00:15:02.080 --> 00:15:03.799
and I found it and it was literally as he
306
00:15:03.879 --> 00:15:09.039
said this derelic graveyard. But this grave was there that
307
00:15:09.279 --> 00:15:12.080
just said these these work that I understand from looking
308
00:15:12.120 --> 00:15:15.600
into it. It's probably to do with plague or something
309
00:15:15.679 --> 00:15:19.320
like that, but I just thought it was a really
310
00:15:19.360 --> 00:15:24.200
good hook. I wrote the book, or I got the
311
00:15:24.240 --> 00:15:26.639
idea for it, I wrote some of it. I wrote
312
00:15:26.639 --> 00:15:28.360
a snolps is for it. I got an agent because
313
00:15:28.360 --> 00:15:30.399
they hadn't had an agent by them, and then I
314
00:15:30.440 --> 00:15:34.000
wrote the book and it got pitched off and I
315
00:15:34.120 --> 00:15:36.799
got I think two or three offers, and I went
316
00:15:36.840 --> 00:15:39.679
with h Q, part of HarperCollins, and I was very
317
00:15:39.679 --> 00:15:42.080
fortunate to get my first dad. It was a guy
318
00:15:42.120 --> 00:15:44.639
called Finn Cotton, who I don't know if you've met him.
319
00:15:44.720 --> 00:15:47.759
He does do the rounds at festivals. He's a great guy.
320
00:15:48.679 --> 00:15:51.039
And there they sign me on a three book deal
321
00:15:51.159 --> 00:15:53.759
and the rest, as they say, is history.
322
00:15:54.039 --> 00:15:57.200
And the book not only garnered not only did the
323
00:15:57.240 --> 00:15:59.919
book garner amazing praise. You've got Ian Rankin on the
324
00:16:00.039 --> 00:16:02.360
cover saying grabbed me from the first page, but it
325
00:16:02.440 --> 00:16:04.919
went on to be long listed for the Macle of
326
00:16:04.960 --> 00:16:08.440
Any Prize for the Best Scottish Crime Book of the Year.
327
00:16:08.519 --> 00:16:11.360
And you were on your on your way and how
328
00:16:11.360 --> 00:16:12.679
many are we up to? So the book that you
329
00:16:12.720 --> 00:16:15.879
were that we're going to sort of plug today is
330
00:16:15.919 --> 00:16:22.559
the fifth seventh sack that research out, a sack that I'm.
331
00:16:22.440 --> 00:16:25.080
Telling you you're you're not on your game today. Yeah,
332
00:16:25.279 --> 00:16:28.200
normally knows everything, normally, Neil, I don't know what's wrong.
333
00:16:28.480 --> 00:16:30.080
Tell us about the new one. Neil, tell us about
334
00:16:30.120 --> 00:16:30.679
the new one.
335
00:16:31.039 --> 00:16:35.480
Well, the new one. I'm I'm a massive spy fan
336
00:16:35.799 --> 00:16:38.480
story fan. I just love spy stories, and I wanted
337
00:16:38.480 --> 00:16:40.360
to say if I could bring that in into a
338
00:16:40.480 --> 00:16:43.240
into a book, but keep it as a police procedural,
339
00:16:44.639 --> 00:16:47.519
because there is there is an intersection between intelligence work
340
00:16:47.600 --> 00:16:50.919
and policing, because you know, intelligence which is gather intelligence.
341
00:16:51.440 --> 00:16:54.159
When it comes to the crime, it's the police, the prosecutor.
342
00:16:54.399 --> 00:16:56.679
But you were at the nexus of that, really, weren't
343
00:16:56.720 --> 00:16:58.600
you for a long time in your career when you
344
00:16:58.600 --> 00:17:00.679
were with you know, when you run to cover with
345
00:17:00.720 --> 00:17:03.919
the CID and stuff, that is intelligence gathering, right, Oh.
346
00:17:03.879 --> 00:17:06.880
Yeah, it is intelligence, but this is it's criminal intelligence.
347
00:17:06.880 --> 00:17:12.240
It's intelligence on crime and criminals, not on intelligence on espionage.
348
00:17:12.440 --> 00:17:15.319
But then I started, I remember the story came out
349
00:17:16.200 --> 00:17:20.160
in the news about there was a fire a warehouse
350
00:17:20.240 --> 00:17:23.880
in East London, and it looked like it was a
351
00:17:23.880 --> 00:17:26.839
big fire, and it was a warehouse that got burned
352
00:17:26.880 --> 00:17:29.640
to a crisp and at first we thought, you know,
353
00:17:29.920 --> 00:17:32.880
I think the locals just thought it was a standard
354
00:17:32.960 --> 00:17:35.359
sort of you know, vandalism or something like this, or
355
00:17:35.400 --> 00:17:38.480
an insurance job. But then it came to pass that
356
00:17:38.559 --> 00:17:42.839
it was the factory was owned by a Ukrainian company,
357
00:17:43.359 --> 00:17:46.599
and the Ukrainian company was sending humanitarian aid over to
358
00:17:46.920 --> 00:17:52.640
Ukraine for the conflict and also Starlink units to help
359
00:17:52.799 --> 00:17:57.279
with the drones. That changed the complexion altogether, especially when
360
00:17:57.319 --> 00:17:59.680
they found that the same company it had another warehouse
361
00:17:59.680 --> 00:18:04.519
burned down in Germany. So they looked into it, they
362
00:18:04.920 --> 00:18:07.279
uncovered what it was, and it turned out that the
363
00:18:07.279 --> 00:18:11.160
people had set the fire were what we did, what
364
00:18:11.200 --> 00:18:14.480
I would call useful idiots. They were criminals from East
365
00:18:14.480 --> 00:18:17.799
London who but one of them, a guy called Dilan Earl,
366
00:18:18.359 --> 00:18:21.839
had gone on to telegram the secure messaging channel and
367
00:18:21.920 --> 00:18:24.640
got in touch with the Wagner Group, who are as
368
00:18:24.640 --> 00:18:29.920
we know, Russian proxy private military contractors, and they were
369
00:18:29.960 --> 00:18:33.480
paying them to burn this factory down. They were also
370
00:18:33.559 --> 00:18:37.000
getting ready to pay them to kidnap a Russia and
371
00:18:37.039 --> 00:18:40.319
a Russian dissident from Mayfair and try and get him
372
00:18:40.319 --> 00:18:42.440
back to Russia. Now this just struck me as really
373
00:18:42.480 --> 00:18:45.200
really fascinating, So I wanted to do this. I wanted
374
00:18:45.240 --> 00:18:46.240
so that the idea for.
375
00:18:46.200 --> 00:18:46.960
The story was.
376
00:18:48.519 --> 00:18:51.680
An intelligence agent. So what you would you would have
377
00:18:51.680 --> 00:18:56.440
called him in the police, an informer dies in very
378
00:18:56.480 --> 00:19:00.559
mysterious circumstances. But then it turns out he was an
379
00:19:00.599 --> 00:19:04.160
agent working for m I five and the I five
380
00:19:04.599 --> 00:19:07.319
agent calls up one of his old contacts, Barney, who
381
00:19:07.480 --> 00:19:11.200
is the technical expert on Max Craigie's team, and says
382
00:19:11.839 --> 00:19:14.680
he was killed because people sold him out. So we've
383
00:19:14.680 --> 00:19:17.119
got this whole thing about what they call the criminal
384
00:19:17.119 --> 00:19:20.880
proxy model model of espionage about Max and his team
385
00:19:21.079 --> 00:19:22.640
wanted to get to the bottom of it. So that's
386
00:19:22.759 --> 00:19:24.200
that was the nexus of the book.
387
00:19:25.480 --> 00:19:27.319
You realize you haven't told us the book's title.
388
00:19:28.200 --> 00:19:32.279
It is called The Dark Heart. I'm not great that.
389
00:19:35.160 --> 00:19:37.240
It sounds really topical. It's the sort of thing that
390
00:19:37.279 --> 00:19:39.039
I think will do extremely well.
391
00:19:39.920 --> 00:19:42.759
Yeah, no, it's I'm really pleased with how it's gone.
392
00:19:43.599 --> 00:19:46.559
You know, it's selling really nicely, had a nice big
393
00:19:46.799 --> 00:19:49.440
you know, Philip the other day with you know, doing
394
00:19:49.480 --> 00:19:51.240
well in the charts and all that sort of stuff.
395
00:19:51.839 --> 00:19:54.519
I'm really pleased with how it's been received. The reviews
396
00:19:54.519 --> 00:19:57.240
are terrific. It's to get a really nice review in
397
00:19:57.279 --> 00:19:58.440
the time, so the first time.
398
00:19:59.079 --> 00:20:00.720
So yeah, I'm wonderful.
399
00:20:03.319 --> 00:20:05.880
How much of Max Craigie is you?
400
00:20:07.119 --> 00:20:07.279
Oh?
401
00:20:07.440 --> 00:20:12.799
Nothing, nothing. He is much harder worker much.
402
00:20:13.079 --> 00:20:15.279
Hang on you you used to work every hour God
403
00:20:15.359 --> 00:20:16.599
sends you told us this?
404
00:20:16.799 --> 00:20:20.119
Well, yeah, okay, but he's so. He is more competent
405
00:20:20.160 --> 00:20:23.200
than me and much harder than me.
406
00:20:24.200 --> 00:20:25.000
He is very much.
407
00:20:26.240 --> 00:20:28.640
He's a hard case. He's much harder than me. But
408
00:20:28.680 --> 00:20:30.720
he's a good man. He's a kind man. He's you know,
409
00:20:30.839 --> 00:20:33.400
he loves his wife and all that sort of stuff.
410
00:20:33.440 --> 00:20:35.599
In this current book, he's got he's got a baby
411
00:20:35.720 --> 00:20:37.799
or a two year old. I think, I don't know,
412
00:20:37.799 --> 00:20:39.400
I lose tracks. I'm right in the next I've just
413
00:20:39.440 --> 00:20:40.279
finished the next one.
414
00:20:40.480 --> 00:20:42.799
But he has a dog, right, he has a dog.
415
00:20:42.960 --> 00:20:45.160
He's got his dog who's called Nutmeg, who is like
416
00:20:45.279 --> 00:20:47.200
is actually my mate's got a dog called Nutmeg.
417
00:20:47.400 --> 00:20:51.880
So I just but his dog doesn't it cannot pick
418
00:20:51.960 --> 00:20:54.359
up sort of threats to nuclear facilities.
419
00:20:55.200 --> 00:21:01.759
No, not really a little cockapoo, which struck me as
420
00:21:01.839 --> 00:21:05.160
quite funny. But yeah, no, it's then that came out
421
00:21:05.160 --> 00:21:08.480
in March, and yeah, I'm really pleased with how it's gone.
422
00:21:09.000 --> 00:21:10.559
It seems to be, you know, people seem to be
423
00:21:10.640 --> 00:21:12.079
enjoying it, which is fantastic.
424
00:21:13.079 --> 00:21:17.240
That's wonderful. So I'll tell us. You just mentioned that
425
00:21:17.319 --> 00:21:18.880
you're working on the next one. Tell us a little
426
00:21:18.839 --> 00:21:19.440
bit about that.
427
00:21:20.160 --> 00:21:24.839
Well, the next one. I wanted to get into witness protection.
428
00:21:25.759 --> 00:21:29.119
Well personally, not personally, obviously I have done nothing wrong.
429
00:21:30.599 --> 00:21:32.839
You would say that, wouldn't you. You would say that.
430
00:21:32.680 --> 00:21:35.880
This means the plastic surgery.
431
00:21:35.720 --> 00:21:39.559
It's all coming together, actually, don't you.
432
00:21:42.480 --> 00:21:44.680
Well, it struck me. I haven't read much about that
433
00:21:45.039 --> 00:21:48.000
in books about the pros I mean. And the reason
434
00:21:48.039 --> 00:21:50.039
people don't lie about it is because it's such a
435
00:21:50.119 --> 00:21:53.119
it's really highly guarded secret. I was a police officer
436
00:21:53.160 --> 00:21:56.240
for twenty five years. I know basically nothing about it
437
00:21:56.640 --> 00:22:00.000
because it's dealt with by completely different units. It's it's
438
00:22:00.279 --> 00:22:04.279
by the National Crime Agency, even though some police forces
439
00:22:04.319 --> 00:22:05.880
have their own people who work in it. But it's
440
00:22:05.920 --> 00:22:08.039
a really it's a closed book. As of course it
441
00:22:08.079 --> 00:22:12.039
should be, But it just struck me, what would it
442
00:22:12.079 --> 00:22:17.319
be if somebody went into witness protection isn't very happy
443
00:22:17.319 --> 00:22:19.839
about it? Because people in witness protection are very often
444
00:22:20.039 --> 00:22:21.880
not very happy about it because they've had to leave
445
00:22:21.920 --> 00:22:26.039
their whole life behind them. They don't live in great luxury.
446
00:22:26.079 --> 00:22:28.680
The best they can expect is to mimic how they
447
00:22:28.680 --> 00:22:32.240
were living before they went into witness protection, because it
448
00:22:32.319 --> 00:22:35.799
can't seem to be an inducement. Well, what happens if
449
00:22:35.839 --> 00:22:39.160
one of them starts tiktoking? What happens with one of
450
00:22:39.200 --> 00:22:42.359
them from behind the mask decides he's going to TikTok
451
00:22:42.400 --> 00:22:45.559
about it? And of course what happens if he gets
452
00:22:45.559 --> 00:22:48.359
found and then there's a suspension? Is there a leak?
453
00:22:48.440 --> 00:22:50.480
How has he found? How has he been tracked down?
454
00:22:50.559 --> 00:22:52.599
This guy in witness protection? And it's all to do
455
00:22:52.680 --> 00:22:59.279
with drug importation into the southwest coast of England and
456
00:22:59.319 --> 00:23:04.759
it's links with Scotland and people trying to find protected
457
00:23:04.799 --> 00:23:06.119
people that are in with this protection.
458
00:23:07.599 --> 00:23:11.240
That brings us full circle because you've been living in
459
00:23:11.240 --> 00:23:14.599
Scotland but you are moving? Are you am?
460
00:23:15.200 --> 00:23:18.799
I am moving? I've got my son is a rum
461
00:23:18.839 --> 00:23:24.799
Marine commando who lives in Devon as many most rural
462
00:23:24.839 --> 00:23:26.880
marine commandos tend to live in Devon because most of
463
00:23:26.920 --> 00:23:30.839
our Raal Marines are based there. He's been in twenty years.
464
00:23:31.319 --> 00:23:34.200
He was always this sort of shall we say gad
465
00:23:34.240 --> 00:23:37.079
about who If he wasn't off on tour with the
466
00:23:37.119 --> 00:23:40.400
Royal Marines, was off traveling somewhere around the world surfing
467
00:23:40.559 --> 00:23:44.400
or whatever, parachuting or whatever he does, then he's met
468
00:23:44.480 --> 00:23:46.759
the person, the one he settled down and I've got
469
00:23:46.759 --> 00:23:50.440
a grandson, so we want to watch our grandson grow up.
470
00:23:51.799 --> 00:23:55.599
So yes, we are moving in probably about six weeks.
471
00:23:55.839 --> 00:23:58.039
So basically, you're younger than me and Vass and you've
472
00:23:58.039 --> 00:23:59.960
got a grand kid because you've done stuff at the right.
473
00:24:00.200 --> 00:24:03.200
Not younger than you, you are younger than that.
474
00:24:03.359 --> 00:24:04.599
I mean you look younger than Veas.
475
00:24:05.000 --> 00:24:08.880
That's the plastic surgery, as we've seed, that's the vastic surgery.
476
00:24:09.079 --> 00:24:11.960
I am really really old. I'm in my seventh I've
477
00:24:12.039 --> 00:24:13.400
just hit my seventh des.
478
00:24:13.759 --> 00:24:20.960
Shut up, yes, I'm six. No, I don't believe that
479
00:24:21.559 --> 00:24:22.200
you did.
480
00:24:22.200 --> 00:24:24.599
You hit the seventh decade in the face because you're
481
00:24:24.880 --> 00:24:26.279
like the British Jack preacher.
482
00:24:27.240 --> 00:24:28.200
Basically, would you.
483
00:24:28.119 --> 00:24:30.200
Say seventh decade? What do you mean you're seventy?
484
00:24:30.599 --> 00:24:34.240
No, I'm no. I've just entered my seventh decade sixty.
485
00:24:34.680 --> 00:24:35.559
I turned sixteen.
486
00:24:35.920 --> 00:24:39.000
Okay, okay, okay, that's when you say seventies, like, don't
487
00:24:39.160 --> 00:24:42.519
do that. It's just makes you sounding older than you.
488
00:24:42.599 --> 00:24:44.839
I can't believe you're sixty, but I mean I really
489
00:24:44.839 --> 00:24:46.240
didn't believe you were seventy.
490
00:24:46.440 --> 00:24:47.759
Anyway, here's a question.
491
00:24:47.759 --> 00:24:50.240
These are the joys of a of a voice only podcast.
492
00:24:50.279 --> 00:24:53.240
The audience is thinking what does it actually look like? Well,
493
00:24:53.319 --> 00:24:54.720
ladies and gentlemen, if you want to see what it
494
00:24:54.799 --> 00:24:57.680
looks like, go along to one of the many events
495
00:24:57.720 --> 00:24:59.160
he's doing this year. What are you doing this year?
496
00:25:00.039 --> 00:25:00.640
And events?
497
00:25:01.440 --> 00:25:03.799
I've done a load of events. I was in Denmark
498
00:25:04.519 --> 00:25:08.039
earlier for the festival at Hawss in the old Prison,
499
00:25:08.079 --> 00:25:13.559
which was amazing. I've never seen so many people at
500
00:25:13.559 --> 00:25:15.519
the festival. I mean, you go to Harrogut, you think
501
00:25:15.559 --> 00:25:20.640
it's big. I did a panel with Elie Griffiths and
502
00:25:21.319 --> 00:25:24.960
Sam Holland I really like it, like a thousand people
503
00:25:25.000 --> 00:25:25.319
in there.
504
00:25:25.440 --> 00:25:29.359
Are you? Are you big in Denmark? You like not
505
00:25:29.480 --> 00:25:30.440
bigging myself up.
506
00:25:30.440 --> 00:25:31.960
You don't like to say this sort of thing, but
507
00:25:32.000 --> 00:25:37.039
I am quite big in denmarkt they love swearing and
508
00:25:37.119 --> 00:25:38.599
my books are full of swearing.
509
00:25:39.400 --> 00:25:43.839
They love We're going wrong. I must say I'm big
510
00:25:43.839 --> 00:25:47.799
in Lithuania. I've got a cocktail named after one of
511
00:25:47.880 --> 00:25:51.039
the books in Lithuania, Mane, I'm big, big in Lithuania.
512
00:25:53.119 --> 00:25:57.039
Which major? Which major nationination of you? Are you big
513
00:25:57.039 --> 00:25:59.880
in Mongolia? Good one?
514
00:26:00.079 --> 00:26:03.119
Actually, I've had both series published in Japan. I wouldn't
515
00:26:03.119 --> 00:26:05.319
say big out there, but yeah, it's nice to have
516
00:26:05.400 --> 00:26:07.960
because they have a maybe you both had Japanese editions,
517
00:26:07.960 --> 00:26:10.440
but they do sort of all sort of slightly Arabic
518
00:26:10.519 --> 00:26:13.079
where you open it from the other side the books
519
00:26:13.160 --> 00:26:15.039
and the writing goes up and down the page rather
520
00:26:15.079 --> 00:26:15.640
than the cross.
521
00:26:16.319 --> 00:26:18.839
I am quite jealous because they I'm not not published
522
00:26:18.839 --> 00:26:20.680
in Japan, but their covers.
523
00:26:20.359 --> 00:26:24.200
Up, Yeah, they are love. I love Japanese covers full stock.
524
00:26:24.319 --> 00:26:27.119
They are really really It's funny how covers are different
525
00:26:27.200 --> 00:26:29.559
round the world. Where can people in the UK see
526
00:26:29.599 --> 00:26:29.960
you soon?
527
00:26:30.000 --> 00:26:30.240
Are you?
528
00:26:30.279 --> 00:26:31.599
Are you going to any festivals?
529
00:26:31.960 --> 00:26:37.440
I'm a festival in Dundee next week. I am then
530
00:26:37.559 --> 00:26:43.160
at incan Quill in Montrose in the following day, twenty third,
531
00:26:43.200 --> 00:26:45.440
I believe it is and I'll be a capital crime.
532
00:26:45.640 --> 00:26:47.079
I'm on a capital crime.
533
00:26:47.400 --> 00:26:51.440
Were a fair covering of the nation, Yeah, not bad,
534
00:26:51.599 --> 00:26:55.480
can't complain, and of course you can be tracked down
535
00:26:56.200 --> 00:26:58.519
in Devon if, of course people can recognize you behind
536
00:26:58.559 --> 00:26:59.480
the altered.
537
00:26:59.759 --> 00:27:03.559
Yeah, our mother wouldn't recognize me now.
538
00:27:05.240 --> 00:27:06.519
My own mother never does.
539
00:27:08.359 --> 00:27:12.960
Because she prefers me. Do you everyone, can you lead
540
00:27:13.000 --> 00:27:13.640
us out? My friend?
541
00:27:14.200 --> 00:27:16.839
Well, I suppose so. Well. This is good fun, ladies
542
00:27:16.880 --> 00:27:19.680
and gentlemen. That brings us to the close of another episode.
543
00:27:19.920 --> 00:27:24.960
If you've enjoyed the podcast, please do write and tell
544
00:27:25.000 --> 00:27:31.000
your friends, and please do spread the word. So vas
545
00:27:32.160 --> 00:27:36.720
if we went undercover, how would we disguise ourselves?
546
00:27:37.720 --> 00:27:40.200
Oh, keep a bag over the head.
547
00:27:40.880 --> 00:27:44.160
I think you don't think that would draw a tent.
548
00:27:44.319 --> 00:27:46.599
Well in your case, you should do that anyway, whether
549
00:27:46.640 --> 00:27:48.880
it's sort of disguise or just for you know, mental
550
00:27:48.920 --> 00:27:53.359
health purposes. And on that rather surreal nod. Ladies and gentlemen,
551
00:27:53.400 --> 00:27:55.680
we have been your friends the Red Hot Chilly writers
552
00:27:55.720 --> 00:27:58.559
on Murder Junction. Tune in next time
553
00:28:01.119 --> 00:28:01.160
On
1
00:00:04.080 --> 00:00:06.480
Welcome to Murder Junction everyone. This week on the show,
2
00:00:06.519 --> 00:00:10.160
we are talking to former RAF military policeman turned met
3
00:00:10.199 --> 00:00:15.359
detective turned best selling crime writer Neil Lancaster. Neil, welcome
4
00:00:15.400 --> 00:00:15.800
to the show.
5
00:00:16.920 --> 00:00:19.920
Thank you for having me, gentlemen. It's wonderful to be here.
6
00:00:20.199 --> 00:00:23.440
All right, Lil Neil, that's the first time somebody's called
7
00:00:23.519 --> 00:00:25.519
us a called us a gentleman.
8
00:00:25.960 --> 00:00:29.039
Now we've been called many many things, ladies.
9
00:00:29.239 --> 00:00:31.920
One thing, but not a gentleman, which is right. But
10
00:00:31.920 --> 00:00:35.039
there you are, so, Neil, How the devil are you?
11
00:00:35.119 --> 00:00:35.600
My friend?
12
00:00:35.960 --> 00:00:40.520
I'm doing really well despite having to have multiple surgeries
13
00:00:40.520 --> 00:00:43.640
this year. You might see that my amazing good looks
14
00:00:43.640 --> 00:00:46.079
have been stymied by a big scar here.
15
00:00:46.600 --> 00:00:51.640
Oh it's not the plastic surgery pretty much getting plastic
16
00:00:51.679 --> 00:00:53.799
surgery as well. You know that, don't you? You are
17
00:00:53.880 --> 00:00:56.560
perfection fast. Look at that here? What is a little
18
00:00:56.600 --> 00:00:59.039
flick to it today? Have you been using timidate again?
19
00:00:59.200 --> 00:01:04.480
What tim if?
20
00:01:04.519 --> 00:01:08.760
I'm very jealous of you two with your lovely batchy hair,
21
00:01:08.799 --> 00:01:10.760
whereas I have this failing.
22
00:01:10.920 --> 00:01:13.519
But your plastic surgery has made you look like George Clooney.
23
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That's the difference.
24
00:01:14.920 --> 00:01:16.519
Yeah, kind and tell us tell us, why are you're
25
00:01:16.519 --> 00:01:17.560
having this plastic surgery?
26
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Can you tell us it's a It was a little
27
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bit of a too much sun not putting sun cream
28
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on a bit of a base or cell. But it's gone.
29
00:01:27.239 --> 00:01:30.239
It's fine. It took him three years to take it
30
00:01:30.319 --> 00:01:32.000
out off me, so I can't have been that urgent.
31
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Let's let's start, let's let's get let's just get the
32
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show on the road. So let's do that.
33
00:01:36.280 --> 00:01:38.079
Let's stop talking about my injuries.
34
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Do you want to ask a serious question?
35
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I want people I won't neel to tell us a
36
00:01:43.439 --> 00:01:45.719
bit about himself, where he grew up, where he now
37
00:01:46.359 --> 00:01:51.680
lives or might not be living for much longer, etcetera, etcetera.
38
00:01:52.400 --> 00:01:55.799
Okay, right, well, I was born in Liverpool, much as
39
00:01:55.840 --> 00:01:56.519
you won't hear it.
40
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Oh shut up, no, I was.
41
00:01:58.959 --> 00:02:02.079
I grew up the only member of my household that
42
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didn't sound like Luke of Esti.
43
00:02:06.239 --> 00:02:06.959
In the same way.
44
00:02:06.959 --> 00:02:10.520
In fact, here we go our mutual friend Imran, the
45
00:02:10.599 --> 00:02:13.840
mood where you pretend to like him or something like that.
46
00:02:13.919 --> 00:02:17.120
I know, you know, sometimes you don't even pretend. Obviously,
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my accent bears no resemblance to my upbringing. In the
48
00:02:20.599 --> 00:02:24.879
same way, that Imran's accent. Of course, he was born
49
00:02:24.919 --> 00:02:28.520
in Liverpool himself. In fact, we were born one street
50
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away from each other, which we didn't realize. His cousin
51
00:02:32.719 --> 00:02:34.599
I think it is lived in the same street that
52
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I was born in.
53
00:02:35.719 --> 00:02:38.240
So how come he sounds really posh and you sound
54
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like a member of the Baker Street are regulars?
55
00:02:40.400 --> 00:02:44.639
Well, this is true and obviously Imran turned up at court.
56
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He's told this story to me one day going and
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walked in and goes, eh, Jana, I'd like to make
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you know a supposition. Oh you know, and mister mamod,
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it's all very very impressive, but it's no use of
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the jury. Can't tuk the standard and I should.
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I should clarify for our American and foreign listeners that
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what you just did there was what is known as
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the Scouse accent, which is how people from Liverpool often sound.
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But not everybody.
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00:03:16.360 --> 00:03:18.800
Well we have, we have examples. We carry on.
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So you were born in this I was born in Liverpool.
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00:03:21.800 --> 00:03:27.439
My parents moved down to seven Oaks in Kent when
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I was just a wee baby, and I grew up
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00:03:31.520 --> 00:03:33.879
in seven Oaks in Kent on a really rather nice
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00:03:33.919 --> 00:03:38.280
counsel estate, had a lovely time that failed all my
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exams at school, literally all of them, and then age seventeen,
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00:03:43.039 --> 00:03:48.159
joined the RAF, where I stayed for six years. I
73
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was a military policeman, just like Jack Reacher. Ah, yes,
74
00:03:52.560 --> 00:03:56.879
of course, almost exactly like that.
75
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The character is based on you.
76
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I think probably certainly we should ask Lee Child about it.
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Really, so you basically went around punching people very hard
78
00:04:06.719 --> 00:04:08.719
in the face until they confessed.
79
00:04:10.039 --> 00:04:13.439
Kind of but not at all. I was actually I
80
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was actually a dog handler. I was just guarded nuclear sights.
81
00:04:19.160 --> 00:04:20.319
It was really boring.
82
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What was the dog called? Did you have a favorite dog?
83
00:04:24.240 --> 00:04:27.879
Had a dog called Champ who was actually quite a
84
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nice dog, which was wasn't what you really wanted. But
85
00:04:30.759 --> 00:04:33.279
then I got another one called Prince, who was evil
86
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and wanted to kill everything. But yeah, that was.
87
00:04:37.000 --> 00:04:39.639
It, like Prince the rock Star.
88
00:04:39.759 --> 00:04:41.759
Then, right, almost exactly the same.
89
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So in one sense, in one sentence, you've gone, in
90
00:04:45.959 --> 00:04:49.360
my mind from Jack Reacher to Tom Hanks in the
91
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film K nine.
92
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I'll go with that as well. I'm happy with any
93
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of it.
94
00:04:54.160 --> 00:04:55.600
In my head, you were a Barbara woodhost.
95
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But anyway, okay, but now, so you did that for
96
00:05:00.519 --> 00:05:00.959
a while.
97
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I did that for six years and then I never
98
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joined the met Police.
99
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I left spies.
100
00:05:06.720 --> 00:05:09.000
When you have dogs and did you catch anybody?
101
00:05:09.120 --> 00:05:12.240
Oh? I could barely catch a cold. It was really freezing,
102
00:05:12.360 --> 00:05:15.480
and it was really freezing. It was in Germany. It
103
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was a bit of Germany I was in most of
104
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the time. Was absolutely Baltic. And then the Falkland. Well
105
00:05:20.240 --> 00:05:23.040
it was the Baltic, wasn't It might as well have been.
106
00:05:23.519 --> 00:05:25.920
And then I spent time in the Falkland Islands walking
107
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around with me dog.
108
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Do you enter uplands? Yeah?
109
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I did.
110
00:05:29.519 --> 00:05:31.839
I did four months in the Falklands, which was a
111
00:05:31.839 --> 00:05:34.120
great That was a really good place. I really enjoyed that.
112
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How many how many nuclear facilities does the Falklands have
113
00:05:38.240 --> 00:05:40.240
for you to guard? None? None?
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You would say that, you have to say that.
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Of course I could tell you more, but you know,
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you know what that how that would end up in but.
117
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Would fall asleep? Carry on?
118
00:05:49.240 --> 00:05:52.480
Yeah? Oh yeah, you really were. And again nothing much happened.
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00:05:52.480 --> 00:05:54.279
It was then it was the eighties. You know, there
120
00:05:54.319 --> 00:05:56.920
was a Cold war on, but nothing was actually happening.
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So we watched videos. I there was a time we
122
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could basically recite scarface out and top gun most of
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00:06:08.120 --> 00:06:09.199
us could recite.
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That's really impressive that you managed to get your dogs
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to speak English.
126
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Spoke way better than me, that's for sure.
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They didn't have Sko accents. So so what then, what happens?
128
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When did you lose the Sko accent? Was it?
129
00:06:21.879 --> 00:06:24.040
I never had it? I never had accent.
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Well, even because you grew up in seven Orks.
131
00:06:26.120 --> 00:06:29.519
Yeah, my parents and my sisters, both my sisters are
132
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older than me, had Scouse accents, and I grew up
133
00:06:33.519 --> 00:06:35.720
sounding like I do now, like this sort of mix
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00:06:35.800 --> 00:06:39.680
of a bit posh but a bit history.
135
00:06:40.360 --> 00:06:40.560
You know.
136
00:06:40.600 --> 00:06:42.160
I think I think you sound like somebody with a
137
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trust fund who's trying to hate it.
138
00:06:44.720 --> 00:06:49.480
Yeah, exactly, Tony Again, Tony Kent, super plummy, super posh.
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00:06:49.519 --> 00:06:51.319
But just listen to some of the little things. When
140
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he says he didn't say girls, he still says girls.
141
00:06:55.759 --> 00:06:57.600
He says Gills. Isn't it Gils?
142
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Gills?
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00:06:58.279 --> 00:06:59.920
Gee? Where's the Gills? That's two?
144
00:07:00.040 --> 00:07:00.959
And it's my birthday?
145
00:07:01.800 --> 00:07:04.879
Yeah, yeah, where it's the girls? It's my birthday, that's what.
146
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It's not even his birthday. And he's still working for
147
00:07:09.279 --> 00:07:10.040
the girls, isn't he?
148
00:07:12.199 --> 00:07:14.120
I know? That you went when you when you went
149
00:07:14.160 --> 00:07:16.920
into the MET, you were a covert operative. I think
150
00:07:16.920 --> 00:07:19.079
we can talk about this. Did you have on a
151
00:07:19.120 --> 00:07:20.079
new accent for that.
152
00:07:21.199 --> 00:07:24.040
No, you don't do that. You don't really do that
153
00:07:24.079 --> 00:07:24.959
because it's too.
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00:07:25.800 --> 00:07:27.920
No, because you've got to be as real as possible,
155
00:07:28.000 --> 00:07:30.160
right because the thing.
156
00:07:30.360 --> 00:07:32.199
Yes, I mean I joined the MET in nineteen ninety
157
00:07:32.240 --> 00:07:33.920
and I did the usual thing, went into you know,
158
00:07:34.079 --> 00:07:36.680
uniform for a number of years, and then I went
159
00:07:36.720 --> 00:07:37.360
into the c I D.
160
00:07:39.240 --> 00:07:39.560
I was.
161
00:07:40.680 --> 00:07:44.399
I went into the standard CID working in Islington, and
162
00:07:44.399 --> 00:07:46.680
then I went to the Homicide Command, and then I
163
00:07:46.759 --> 00:07:50.199
was working on I was a covert unit within a
164
00:07:50.199 --> 00:07:54.160
homicy command which was offered proactive support to murder investigations.
165
00:07:54.879 --> 00:07:56.959
So the big one that we did with man hunts.
166
00:07:57.000 --> 00:07:59.240
Did a lot of man hunts. Oh wow, so people
167
00:07:59.240 --> 00:08:01.399
who had gone to ground or you know, it'd always
168
00:08:01.439 --> 00:08:04.279
come in on a Friday afternoon and you're thinking, I'm
169
00:08:04.279 --> 00:08:06.120
going to go home and you know, it's been a
170
00:08:06.120 --> 00:08:09.839
busy all week because the hours were insane. I barely
171
00:08:09.839 --> 00:08:13.959
saw my kids for five years. And the phone would
172
00:08:14.000 --> 00:08:18.319
go and they'd say, we've had a murder in Peckham.
173
00:08:18.759 --> 00:08:21.360
We think we know he's done it, we can't find him,
174
00:08:21.600 --> 00:08:24.800
and we've just pegged his just tagged his phone going
175
00:08:24.879 --> 00:08:29.000
up the one you try and find him, get him back.
176
00:08:29.600 --> 00:08:31.439
So that that was a big part of it, which
177
00:08:31.519 --> 00:08:34.759
was good fun. And the other one was proactive investigations
178
00:08:34.799 --> 00:08:39.039
against people we believe were involved in homicide, so people
179
00:08:39.039 --> 00:08:41.759
we think had probably got away with murders, people we
180
00:08:41.840 --> 00:08:44.840
thought were had a predisposition to kill, so you know,
181
00:08:44.919 --> 00:08:48.600
big time drug dealers. I was also on the surveillance
182
00:08:48.600 --> 00:08:54.200
team behind Levi Bellfield, the fairly notorious serial killer who
183
00:08:54.320 --> 00:08:57.639
murdered Marsha McDonald, amily de Lagrange and later on we
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found out Millie Dowler, and a number of other jobs.
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Towards the end of my career, I was on an
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organized immigration crime team. I don't know you saw in
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this all in the news at the moment about immigration
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advisors advising their clients to pretend to be gay so
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that they you know, try and resist the being deported.
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And these were registered immigration advisors and solicitors and things
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like that who were helping them with that. That was
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my investigating, That was my job for about five years.
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Had some you know, fairly big success with that. With
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some corrupt solicitors and things like that that I managed
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to get locked up for facilitating breaches in immigration crime
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things like that, So yeah, I did. I stayed in
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the MET for twenty five years and then I retired
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in twenty fifteen, and for some reason I moved from
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Saint Aubans and we moved six hundred miles north to
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the Highlands of.
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Scotland, which, yeah, why did that?
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It was a number of things. Really, I decided I
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wanted to leave the MET. I was unwell for a
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little while. I had a condition called sarcoidosis, which is
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potentially quite serious, but I got lucky and it went
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into remission. But it kind of changed my attitude. I'd
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been all about work. I was always at work. I
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was always the big next job that I wanted to do,
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the next big villain. I wanted to catch the next
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big surveillance operation. Or I was planning to bug someone's
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house and there's a load of work involved in that.
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Or there was a new contract killing case coming in. Oh,
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that's so exciting. But then I got ill and I thought,
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why am I doing this? Why am I killing myself
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at work? Why am I literally killing myself at work.
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Why am I waking up at four in the morning
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stressed out about all the things I've got to do
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and et cetera, et cetera. And so I said, I said, Mark,
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I can retire. I could retire at forty nine because
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of my military service and things like that. And me
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and my wife we love we've fallen in love with
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the highlights of Scotland because's got some family up here.
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And we said, just do it, and we did it.
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We just we moved up ten years.
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Wonderful. That's really really, it's great that you one you
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realized you caught yourself and that you had the flexibility
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to do that and to enjoy freedom and to enjoy
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your life.
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And of course that led to the next chapter, which
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is what we're here to talk about, which is your segue.
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See how we were we're professional, honestly, seamless, and let's
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talk about your debut, Dead Man's Grave. And I should say,
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for those who don't know, this is a police procedural
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series which has become incredibly successful in a very short
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period of time at a time when police procedurals are
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apparently it's quite tough to launch a new series so
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you've done amazingly well.
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Tell us about the debut.
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Well, actually it's not my debut. I wrote three books
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before that. I believe I wrote it.
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I did.
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I wrote three books of the very small publisher that
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were kind of sort of thriller the stroke police procedures,
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but more thriller than police procedures. They were with a
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very small publisher, so they didn't get massive attention, but
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they did sell quite well. I mean they still sell,
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you know, I quite loo.
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We've got a sacar researcher Aber who is the researcher.
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Yeah, But then I tell you what, I'd written these
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three books that were dis very small publisher. I mean,
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I think I'm really the only one of their authors
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who ever made a couple of quid.
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Out of it.
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But then I was it was Christmas. This is about now,
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you know. I'll stick with the with the plot and
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with the timeline. Here. I was at some friends house
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at Christmas in twenty nineteen, so not that long before
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COVID hit and I got chatted to an old guy
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who'd been a police officer in Scotland during the sixties,
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and he said, you're a writer, aren't there. He goes yeah,
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he I love Scottish crime books. He goes. He was
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a scott He was as Scottish as it's possible to be,
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but you know, with his accent. But he had lived
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in Australia for fifty years. But anyway, he was so
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keen to tell me, he goes, I've got to tell
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you a story of that be a good idea for
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a book. Now you've both heard those words and you've
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both gone, okay, carry on, all know what we're thinking.
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This is going to be crap.
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But it wasn't.
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It was a bagging story, he said. I went to
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this graveyard because I was researching my wife's family because
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they all herald from caith Ness. Now you'll know, I
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bet you know case Ness. It is properly wild, it
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is properly weak, he goes. I found this old graveyard.
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It wasn't attached to a chapel. It was this broken
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down graveyard with a dry stone wall around it, or
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a dry stone dik as they've called it up here,
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and it was mostly fallen down. The gates were all
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rusted and it was completely overgrown. But I went in
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because I heard this is where one of my wife's
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ancestors was buried. I went in and I found this
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grave on the ground and pulled all the undergrowth away
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from it, and it just said this grave never to
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be opened. It literally said those words, nothing else. He goes,
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do you think you can write a story with that?
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And that?
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Yeah?
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Absolutely? And I thought, I wonder if anyone's written about
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this before, so I asked. I thought, I didn't know
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that many people on the Scottish crime scene at this stage,
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so I thought I'll ask. So I asked Lynn Anderson
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and she said, I've not heard of that, but if
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you don't use it, can I? And I went no.
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So I came up with the idea for dead Man's Grave,
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which was going to be a contemporary crime thriller.
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And did you go up and see that grave? Did
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you ever find that?
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I did? Yeah. The thing is, as I was writing it,
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I couldn't really go up there because we were all
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locked down. Once it had been lifted, I went up
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there and it literally is exactly how this guy told me.
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It was up just outside a place called Lathern, which
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is just off the a writing the wild to case Ness,
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and I found it and it was literally as he
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said this derelic graveyard. But this grave was there that
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just said these these work that I understand from looking
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into it. It's probably to do with plague or something
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like that, but I just thought it was a really
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good hook. I wrote the book, or I got the
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idea for it, I wrote some of it. I wrote
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a snolps is for it. I got an agent because
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they hadn't had an agent by them, and then I
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wrote the book and it got pitched off and I
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got I think two or three offers, and I went
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with h Q, part of HarperCollins, and I was very
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fortunate to get my first dad. It was a guy
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called Finn Cotton, who I don't know if you've met him.
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He does do the rounds at festivals. He's a great guy.
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And there they sign me on a three book deal
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and the rest, as they say, is history.
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And the book not only garnered not only did the
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book garner amazing praise. You've got Ian Rankin on the
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cover saying grabbed me from the first page, but it
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went on to be long listed for the Macle of
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Any Prize for the Best Scottish Crime Book of the Year.
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And you were on your on your way and how
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many are we up to? So the book that you
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were that we're going to sort of plug today is
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the fifth seventh sack that research out, a sack that I'm.
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Telling you you're you're not on your game today. Yeah,
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normally knows everything, normally, Neil, I don't know what's wrong.
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Tell us about the new one. Neil, tell us about
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the new one.
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Well, the new one. I'm I'm a massive spy fan
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story fan. I just love spy stories, and I wanted
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to say if I could bring that in into a
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into a book, but keep it as a police procedural,
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because there is there is an intersection between intelligence work
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and policing, because you know, intelligence which is gather intelligence.
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When it comes to the crime, it's the police, the prosecutor.
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But you were at the nexus of that, really, weren't
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you for a long time in your career when you
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were with you know, when you run to cover with
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the CID and stuff, that is intelligence gathering, right, Oh.
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Yeah, it is intelligence, but this is it's criminal intelligence.
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It's intelligence on crime and criminals, not on intelligence on espionage.
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But then I started, I remember the story came out
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in the news about there was a fire a warehouse
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in East London, and it looked like it was a
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big fire, and it was a warehouse that got burned
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to a crisp and at first we thought, you know,
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I think the locals just thought it was a standard
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sort of you know, vandalism or something like this, or
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an insurance job. But then it came to pass that
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it was the factory was owned by a Ukrainian company,
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and the Ukrainian company was sending humanitarian aid over to
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Ukraine for the conflict and also Starlink units to help
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with the drones. That changed the complexion altogether, especially when
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they found that the same company it had another warehouse
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burned down in Germany. So they looked into it, they
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uncovered what it was, and it turned out that the
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people had set the fire were what we did, what
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I would call useful idiots. They were criminals from East
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London who but one of them, a guy called Dilan Earl,
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had gone on to telegram the secure messaging channel and
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got in touch with the Wagner Group, who are as
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we know, Russian proxy private military contractors, and they were
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paying them to burn this factory down. They were also
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getting ready to pay them to kidnap a Russia and
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a Russian dissident from Mayfair and try and get him
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back to Russia. Now this just struck me as really
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really fascinating, So I wanted to do this. I wanted
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so that the idea for.
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The story was.
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An intelligence agent. So what you would you would have
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called him in the police, an informer dies in very
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mysterious circumstances. But then it turns out he was an
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agent working for m I five and the I five
380
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agent calls up one of his old contacts, Barney, who
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is the technical expert on Max Craigie's team, and says
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he was killed because people sold him out. So we've
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got this whole thing about what they call the criminal
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proxy model model of espionage about Max and his team
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wanted to get to the bottom of it. So that's
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that was the nexus of the book.
387
00:19:25.480 --> 00:19:27.319
You realize you haven't told us the book's title.
388
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It is called The Dark Heart. I'm not great that.
389
00:19:35.160 --> 00:19:37.240
It sounds really topical. It's the sort of thing that
390
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I think will do extremely well.
391
00:19:39.920 --> 00:19:42.759
Yeah, no, it's I'm really pleased with how it's gone.
392
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You know, it's selling really nicely, had a nice big
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you know, Philip the other day with you know, doing
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well in the charts and all that sort of stuff.
395
00:19:51.839 --> 00:19:54.519
I'm really pleased with how it's been received. The reviews
396
00:19:54.519 --> 00:19:57.240
are terrific. It's to get a really nice review in
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the time, so the first time.
398
00:19:59.079 --> 00:20:00.720
So yeah, I'm wonderful.
399
00:20:03.319 --> 00:20:05.880
How much of Max Craigie is you?
400
00:20:07.119 --> 00:20:07.279
Oh?
401
00:20:07.440 --> 00:20:12.799
Nothing, nothing. He is much harder worker much.
402
00:20:13.079 --> 00:20:15.279
Hang on you you used to work every hour God
403
00:20:15.359 --> 00:20:16.599
sends you told us this?
404
00:20:16.799 --> 00:20:20.119
Well, yeah, okay, but he's so. He is more competent
405
00:20:20.160 --> 00:20:23.200
than me and much harder than me.
406
00:20:24.200 --> 00:20:25.000
He is very much.
407
00:20:26.240 --> 00:20:28.640
He's a hard case. He's much harder than me. But
408
00:20:28.680 --> 00:20:30.720
he's a good man. He's a kind man. He's you know,
409
00:20:30.839 --> 00:20:33.400
he loves his wife and all that sort of stuff.
410
00:20:33.440 --> 00:20:35.599
In this current book, he's got he's got a baby
411
00:20:35.720 --> 00:20:37.799
or a two year old. I think, I don't know,
412
00:20:37.799 --> 00:20:39.400
I lose tracks. I'm right in the next I've just
413
00:20:39.440 --> 00:20:40.279
finished the next one.
414
00:20:40.480 --> 00:20:42.799
But he has a dog, right, he has a dog.
415
00:20:42.960 --> 00:20:45.160
He's got his dog who's called Nutmeg, who is like
416
00:20:45.279 --> 00:20:47.200
is actually my mate's got a dog called Nutmeg.
417
00:20:47.400 --> 00:20:51.880
So I just but his dog doesn't it cannot pick
418
00:20:51.960 --> 00:20:54.359
up sort of threats to nuclear facilities.
419
00:20:55.200 --> 00:21:01.759
No, not really a little cockapoo, which struck me as
420
00:21:01.839 --> 00:21:05.160
quite funny. But yeah, no, it's then that came out
421
00:21:05.160 --> 00:21:08.480
in March, and yeah, I'm really pleased with how it's gone.
422
00:21:09.000 --> 00:21:10.559
It seems to be, you know, people seem to be
423
00:21:10.640 --> 00:21:12.079
enjoying it, which is fantastic.
424
00:21:13.079 --> 00:21:17.240
That's wonderful. So I'll tell us. You just mentioned that
425
00:21:17.319 --> 00:21:18.880
you're working on the next one. Tell us a little
426
00:21:18.839 --> 00:21:19.440
bit about that.
427
00:21:20.160 --> 00:21:24.839
Well, the next one. I wanted to get into witness protection.
428
00:21:25.759 --> 00:21:29.119
Well personally, not personally, obviously I have done nothing wrong.
429
00:21:30.599 --> 00:21:32.839
You would say that, wouldn't you. You would say that.
430
00:21:32.680 --> 00:21:35.880
This means the plastic surgery.
431
00:21:35.720 --> 00:21:39.559
It's all coming together, actually, don't you.
432
00:21:42.480 --> 00:21:44.680
Well, it struck me. I haven't read much about that
433
00:21:45.039 --> 00:21:48.000
in books about the pros I mean. And the reason
434
00:21:48.039 --> 00:21:50.039
people don't lie about it is because it's such a
435
00:21:50.119 --> 00:21:53.119
it's really highly guarded secret. I was a police officer
436
00:21:53.160 --> 00:21:56.240
for twenty five years. I know basically nothing about it
437
00:21:56.640 --> 00:22:00.000
because it's dealt with by completely different units. It's it's
438
00:22:00.279 --> 00:22:04.279
by the National Crime Agency, even though some police forces
439
00:22:04.319 --> 00:22:05.880
have their own people who work in it. But it's
440
00:22:05.920 --> 00:22:08.039
a really it's a closed book. As of course it
441
00:22:08.079 --> 00:22:12.039
should be, But it just struck me, what would it
442
00:22:12.079 --> 00:22:17.319
be if somebody went into witness protection isn't very happy
443
00:22:17.319 --> 00:22:19.839
about it? Because people in witness protection are very often
444
00:22:20.039 --> 00:22:21.880
not very happy about it because they've had to leave
445
00:22:21.920 --> 00:22:26.039
their whole life behind them. They don't live in great luxury.
446
00:22:26.079 --> 00:22:28.680
The best they can expect is to mimic how they
447
00:22:28.680 --> 00:22:32.240
were living before they went into witness protection, because it
448
00:22:32.319 --> 00:22:35.799
can't seem to be an inducement. Well, what happens if
449
00:22:35.839 --> 00:22:39.160
one of them starts tiktoking? What happens with one of
450
00:22:39.200 --> 00:22:42.359
them from behind the mask decides he's going to TikTok
451
00:22:42.400 --> 00:22:45.559
about it? And of course what happens if he gets
452
00:22:45.559 --> 00:22:48.359
found and then there's a suspension? Is there a leak?
453
00:22:48.440 --> 00:22:50.480
How has he found? How has he been tracked down?
454
00:22:50.559 --> 00:22:52.599
This guy in witness protection? And it's all to do
455
00:22:52.680 --> 00:22:59.279
with drug importation into the southwest coast of England and
456
00:22:59.319 --> 00:23:04.759
it's links with Scotland and people trying to find protected
457
00:23:04.799 --> 00:23:06.119
people that are in with this protection.
458
00:23:07.599 --> 00:23:11.240
That brings us full circle because you've been living in
459
00:23:11.240 --> 00:23:14.599
Scotland but you are moving? Are you am?
460
00:23:15.200 --> 00:23:18.799
I am moving? I've got my son is a rum
461
00:23:18.839 --> 00:23:24.799
Marine commando who lives in Devon as many most rural
462
00:23:24.839 --> 00:23:26.880
marine commandos tend to live in Devon because most of
463
00:23:26.920 --> 00:23:30.839
our Raal Marines are based there. He's been in twenty years.
464
00:23:31.319 --> 00:23:34.200
He was always this sort of shall we say gad
465
00:23:34.240 --> 00:23:37.079
about who If he wasn't off on tour with the
466
00:23:37.119 --> 00:23:40.400
Royal Marines, was off traveling somewhere around the world surfing
467
00:23:40.559 --> 00:23:44.400
or whatever, parachuting or whatever he does, then he's met
468
00:23:44.480 --> 00:23:46.759
the person, the one he settled down and I've got
469
00:23:46.759 --> 00:23:50.440
a grandson, so we want to watch our grandson grow up.
470
00:23:51.799 --> 00:23:55.599
So yes, we are moving in probably about six weeks.
471
00:23:55.839 --> 00:23:58.039
So basically, you're younger than me and Vass and you've
472
00:23:58.039 --> 00:23:59.960
got a grand kid because you've done stuff at the right.
473
00:24:00.200 --> 00:24:03.200
Not younger than you, you are younger than that.
474
00:24:03.359 --> 00:24:04.599
I mean you look younger than Veas.
475
00:24:05.000 --> 00:24:08.880
That's the plastic surgery, as we've seed, that's the vastic surgery.
476
00:24:09.079 --> 00:24:11.960
I am really really old. I'm in my seventh I've
477
00:24:12.039 --> 00:24:13.400
just hit my seventh des.
478
00:24:13.759 --> 00:24:20.960
Shut up, yes, I'm six. No, I don't believe that
479
00:24:21.559 --> 00:24:22.200
you did.
480
00:24:22.200 --> 00:24:24.599
You hit the seventh decade in the face because you're
481
00:24:24.880 --> 00:24:26.279
like the British Jack preacher.
482
00:24:27.240 --> 00:24:28.200
Basically, would you.
483
00:24:28.119 --> 00:24:30.200
Say seventh decade? What do you mean you're seventy?
484
00:24:30.599 --> 00:24:34.240
No, I'm no. I've just entered my seventh decade sixty.
485
00:24:34.680 --> 00:24:35.559
I turned sixteen.
486
00:24:35.920 --> 00:24:39.000
Okay, okay, okay, that's when you say seventies, like, don't
487
00:24:39.160 --> 00:24:42.519
do that. It's just makes you sounding older than you.
488
00:24:42.599 --> 00:24:44.839
I can't believe you're sixty, but I mean I really
489
00:24:44.839 --> 00:24:46.240
didn't believe you were seventy.
490
00:24:46.440 --> 00:24:47.759
Anyway, here's a question.
491
00:24:47.759 --> 00:24:50.240
These are the joys of a of a voice only podcast.
492
00:24:50.279 --> 00:24:53.240
The audience is thinking what does it actually look like? Well,
493
00:24:53.319 --> 00:24:54.720
ladies and gentlemen, if you want to see what it
494
00:24:54.799 --> 00:24:57.680
looks like, go along to one of the many events
495
00:24:57.720 --> 00:24:59.160
he's doing this year. What are you doing this year?
496
00:25:00.039 --> 00:25:00.640
And events?
497
00:25:01.440 --> 00:25:03.799
I've done a load of events. I was in Denmark
498
00:25:04.519 --> 00:25:08.039
earlier for the festival at Hawss in the old Prison,
499
00:25:08.079 --> 00:25:13.559
which was amazing. I've never seen so many people at
500
00:25:13.559 --> 00:25:15.519
the festival. I mean, you go to Harrogut, you think
501
00:25:15.559 --> 00:25:20.640
it's big. I did a panel with Elie Griffiths and
502
00:25:21.319 --> 00:25:24.960
Sam Holland I really like it, like a thousand people
503
00:25:25.000 --> 00:25:25.319
in there.
504
00:25:25.440 --> 00:25:29.359
Are you? Are you big in Denmark? You like not
505
00:25:29.480 --> 00:25:30.440
bigging myself up.
506
00:25:30.440 --> 00:25:31.960
You don't like to say this sort of thing, but
507
00:25:32.000 --> 00:25:37.039
I am quite big in denmarkt they love swearing and
508
00:25:37.119 --> 00:25:38.599
my books are full of swearing.
509
00:25:39.400 --> 00:25:43.839
They love We're going wrong. I must say I'm big
510
00:25:43.839 --> 00:25:47.799
in Lithuania. I've got a cocktail named after one of
511
00:25:47.880 --> 00:25:51.039
the books in Lithuania, Mane, I'm big, big in Lithuania.
512
00:25:53.119 --> 00:25:57.039
Which major? Which major nationination of you? Are you big
513
00:25:57.039 --> 00:25:59.880
in Mongolia? Good one?
514
00:26:00.079 --> 00:26:03.119
Actually, I've had both series published in Japan. I wouldn't
515
00:26:03.119 --> 00:26:05.319
say big out there, but yeah, it's nice to have
516
00:26:05.400 --> 00:26:07.960
because they have a maybe you both had Japanese editions,
517
00:26:07.960 --> 00:26:10.440
but they do sort of all sort of slightly Arabic
518
00:26:10.519 --> 00:26:13.079
where you open it from the other side the books
519
00:26:13.160 --> 00:26:15.039
and the writing goes up and down the page rather
520
00:26:15.079 --> 00:26:15.640
than the cross.
521
00:26:16.319 --> 00:26:18.839
I am quite jealous because they I'm not not published
522
00:26:18.839 --> 00:26:20.680
in Japan, but their covers.
523
00:26:20.359 --> 00:26:24.200
Up, Yeah, they are love. I love Japanese covers full stock.
524
00:26:24.319 --> 00:26:27.119
They are really really It's funny how covers are different
525
00:26:27.200 --> 00:26:29.559
round the world. Where can people in the UK see
526
00:26:29.599 --> 00:26:29.960
you soon?
527
00:26:30.000 --> 00:26:30.240
Are you?
528
00:26:30.279 --> 00:26:31.599
Are you going to any festivals?
529
00:26:31.960 --> 00:26:37.440
I'm a festival in Dundee next week. I am then
530
00:26:37.559 --> 00:26:43.160
at incan Quill in Montrose in the following day, twenty third,
531
00:26:43.200 --> 00:26:45.440
I believe it is and I'll be a capital crime.
532
00:26:45.640 --> 00:26:47.079
I'm on a capital crime.
533
00:26:47.400 --> 00:26:51.440
Were a fair covering of the nation, Yeah, not bad,
534
00:26:51.599 --> 00:26:55.480
can't complain, and of course you can be tracked down
535
00:26:56.200 --> 00:26:58.519
in Devon if, of course people can recognize you behind
536
00:26:58.559 --> 00:26:59.480
the altered.
537
00:26:59.759 --> 00:27:03.559
Yeah, our mother wouldn't recognize me now.
538
00:27:05.240 --> 00:27:06.519
My own mother never does.
539
00:27:08.359 --> 00:27:12.960
Because she prefers me. Do you everyone, can you lead
540
00:27:13.000 --> 00:27:13.640
us out? My friend?
541
00:27:14.200 --> 00:27:16.839
Well, I suppose so. Well. This is good fun, ladies
542
00:27:16.880 --> 00:27:19.680
and gentlemen. That brings us to the close of another episode.
543
00:27:19.920 --> 00:27:24.960
If you've enjoyed the podcast, please do write and tell
544
00:27:25.000 --> 00:27:31.000
your friends, and please do spread the word. So vas
545
00:27:32.160 --> 00:27:36.720
if we went undercover, how would we disguise ourselves?
546
00:27:37.720 --> 00:27:40.200
Oh, keep a bag over the head.
547
00:27:40.880 --> 00:27:44.160
I think you don't think that would draw a tent.
548
00:27:44.319 --> 00:27:46.599
Well in your case, you should do that anyway, whether
549
00:27:46.640 --> 00:27:48.880
it's sort of disguise or just for you know, mental
550
00:27:48.920 --> 00:27:53.359
health purposes. And on that rather surreal nod. Ladies and gentlemen,
551
00:27:53.400 --> 00:27:55.680
we have been your friends the Red Hot Chilly writers
552
00:27:55.720 --> 00:27:58.559
on Murder Junction. Tune in next time
553
00:28:01.119 --> 00:28:01.160
On
