0108 Complex Trauma Explained: The Childhood Wounds You Can't Always See

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I definitely consider myself to be a childhood complex trauma survivor, but emotionally I felt left.
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I felt abandoned, I felt misattuned to, I felt misunderstood.
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That chronic feeling of like I have to figure all everything, the whole world out, all on my own.
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What I know to be true is like life is filled with nuance.
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Could you like, for our listeners, just sort of define what is complex trauma?
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And does it always stem from childhood?
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People are so profoundly hard on themselves.
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And it's really hard to heal and recover if like you're grabbing a hold of everything and making it your fault.
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Can you talk to me about that concept of control?
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When we feel helpless, we are likely to want more control.
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I want people to know that healing is possible and you deserve it.
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So, Danica, welcome to Multispec.
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I'm really, really excited to have you on air today to share your journey and your expertise with our listeners.
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So, how are you feeling today?
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How are you doing?
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Doing well.
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It's early for me, and I'm an early riser morning person.
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So this is like my sharpest, most vibrant time of the day.
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That's amazing.
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And whereabouts uh are you in the world?
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Yeah, I'm located in Dallas, Texas.
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Were you born and raised there, or was it some a place that you moved to later on in your life?
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I'm originally from California, but have lived in Texas most of my life.
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Okay.
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Um, I'm actually really curious, like, and before we get into your story a little bit, like how does, you know, because you're in the field of therapy, um, how does that work in the US?
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Is it like state by state?
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Do you have to kind of get a license everywhere you know you live or different states that you live in?
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And what how do they differ?
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Well, it's interesting because in the last couple of years this has shifted just a little bit.
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There's these like counseling and psychology compacts that have started to form.
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But traditionally, up until a couple years ago, it was like you, whatever state you get licensed in, so not necessarily where you go to school, but where you like complete your board requirements, that's where you're licensed to practice.
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But in the last few years, like for psychologists in particular, um, there's uh it's called SciPact, and it's a psychology compact where like basically there's reciprocity with a bunch of states.
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So, like psychologists, as long as you are part of the SciPAC paneling um or credentialing, you can see folks.
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I think now it's into 43 states.
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Okay, that's awesome.
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So, Donica, if you can sort of begin from the very beginning, like if you can tell us a little bit about your childhood and your upbringing, what was that like for you?
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It's so like I'm like, oh, there's so many things I could say.
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Um, things that feel relevant to me as I exist right now in this moment.
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Uh I am an eldest daughter, so I have a younger brother.
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I grew up with both of my parents in the household.
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Um, I definitely consider myself to be a childhood complex trauma survivor.
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And being a complex trauma survivor is a big part of my life because I think it informs not only how I exist as a human being, but how I show up professionally and my desire for advocacy and sharing knowledge and resources.
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Um, you know, I think as I also grew up working class, and so I there are pieces of my history related to like scarcity and urgency and pressure.
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Um, just like, are we gonna be okay?
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Like that was like a message that was really consistent in my household.
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Like, and the and I had this overwhelming sense as a child that like we were not gonna be okay, or we were just skating by all the time.
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And in addition to that, there, you know, I'm an elder millennial.
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I was born in 1983, and so I'm like right on that cusp and raised by boomer parents.
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And as is incredibly common with boomer parents raising, you know, millennial or even like um, you know, younger Gen X children, um, there was just a really significant amount of misattunment, emotional neglect.
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You know, my parents were, or at least my mom was um physically there.
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I could see her, I could, you know, she was present, both of my parents came home, that sort of thing.
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Um, and yet the emotional attunement was was lacking.
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And I I think that this is this is actually what has driven me to want to specialize in and um work with folks who have that same experience of like, yeah, they were physically there, I could see them with my eyes, but emotionally I felt left.
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I felt abandoned, I felt misattuned to, I felt misunderstood, that chronic feeling of like I have to figure all everything, the whole world out all on my own.
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Um, so I have lived experience of that, and that's that tends to be the sort of work that I do as well at this point.
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Did you feel like you had some kind of form of uh support system growing up?
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If it's if not parents, your siblings, your teachers, your peers at school, you know, did you kind of have a place where you could fall back on safely?
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I'm gonna say yes and no, because I think I think the truth of it is, and I uh years ago I would have told you no, I did not have support as a kid.
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Um as I have done my own healing work, as I sit with others who do their healing work, you know, what I know to be true is like life is filled with nuance and we have micro moments of connection.
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I am a very sensitive person, so I'm highly sensitive, um, very intuitive, can like, you know, take in, and a lot of complex trauma survivors will say this, of course.
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Um, you know, take in my surroundings.
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And I think because of that, I I couldn't easily identify like a consistent place where I felt met and attuned.
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Like I was a dancer, um, performance was like a an important thing in my childhood, and and that I mean that was a very overarching thing.
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Performance at school, performance and dance, um, performing being a good kid, performing, you know, being a my parents' peer.
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Um and so I wouldn't say I had that overarching experience of feeling like I had a place or a person to turn to, um, but I certainly had micro moments of it.
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And I think as most children who experience trauma are, I was I was resilient enough to continue looking for those places.
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Um, and certainly as I got into early adulthood, began to like pretty radically look for like where are my people, where is my community?
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And I should say, because this influenced my decision to want to be a therapist initially, um, I had a really good therapist when I was a teenager.
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That was one of the things like I come from a family of like we don't believe in therapy, um, sort of thing.
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And and yet when I was a teenager, I begged my mom, like, I have to go.
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I knew I needed to go, I knew my mental health was not good.
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Um, so I had a really great therapist that laid the groundwork for me of like, oh, like there can be a safe person.
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So I would say, like, in when I was an older teenager, like probably, you know, 16, 17, I had a really good therapist.
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Um, I think it's like especially when it comes to therapists, it can be so tricky, right?
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Some people, it's it's all about really connecting with that therapist as well.
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So um the fact that you've kind of felt like you had that safe place um must have given you even a concept of what safety looks like, what a healthy, you know, relationship can look like.
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What does it mean to really be able to fall back on someone and know that you're gonna get a soft landing?
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Could you like for our listeners just sort of define what is complex trauma?
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And does it always stem from childhood?
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That's a good question.
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So, no, I'm not gonna say it always stems from childhood.
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However, we often see that adult experiences of compounded trauma, meaning more than one trauma at a time or a trauma layering on top of another trauma, we often see that if that pattern exists in adulthood, it may have had its origins in childhood.
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Some of the exceptions I'll see to that is like if someone ends up in a like an intimate partner violence sort of relationship, like then it might be like, well, my childhood didn't really have this, but then in adulthood this established, and then that was like this cascade of other bad things, traumatic things that happened.
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Um, so no, not always, but I give this little like caveat of like, but how did childhood lay the foundation for these complex trauma experiences in adulthood?
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Complex trauma as prolonged, sustained, uh, profound exposure to anything.
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So any experience, any dynamic, any relationship that is too much, too fast, or not enough for too long for our nervous system.
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And so, more simply, you might think about an experience that is too much or too overwhelming or not attuned enough for my body.
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And so the when we think about complex trauma, what we're often talking about, especially when we're talking about childhood complex trauma, we're often talking about the daily occurrences of life where mis misattunement or too much activation is occurring.
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Um, so you know, a great like example of this would, and I see this a lot in the work that I do, it'll be someone that'll come in and say, Well, I think I have trauma or maybe I have trauma.
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And they're they're doing that because they're like, well, I can't identify like the one thing, you know, like if someone has a car accident um where or a sexual assault, you know, something where it's like the it is obvious, it'd be obvious to you, to me, to the world that this is a categorical trauma.
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You know, I specialize in um emotional neglect and misattunment and family aborgen stuff, and so sometimes it'll be like, well, it just hasn't felt right.
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I don't know, is it trauma?
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And you know, one of the questions I'll often ask people, and this kind of begins the conversation of understanding, well, what did attunement look like in your childhood?
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I'll say, like, if you were outside playing and you fell, you tripped and fell, and you scraped your knee, what happened next?
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Who was there to support you?
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And what did that support look like?
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And a lot of times what I hear is no one was there, or the person that was there comforted me for a mere moment, and then I was expected to brush it off, or I got in trouble for having fallen in the first place.
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And these are really distinct indicators that, like, okay, the care that you needed as a child, like I felt I hurt myself.
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The only reasonable and attuned response is care, I'm here, I take care of you.
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Um, if that wasn't just a pure and simple thing you could count on, then we're at least talking about there were times in your childhood where you were not met in the way that you should have been.
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And that that sets a you know a tone for how we exist in the world.
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Like, if I'm not sure I can rely on my caregivers, well, what does safety look like?
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What's my sense of self look like?
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And if we don't feel safe and we don't know our sense of self, that layers on top of other experiences we have.
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How could that manifest in an adult looking back on their lives?
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What awesome behaviors might you see in an adult coming in?
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I think two things stand out to me.
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I mean, of course, this could look like a lot of things, but two things I often see in almost everybody I've ever worked with in 15 years of doing this work.
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Uh, one thing is, um, and I'll I'm gonna be a little broad, like I'm gonna say relational instability.
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And so what I mean by that is relationships that are not fulfilling, relationships with, I'm gonna like use air quotes like the wrong person, um wrong for you person.
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Um, you know, I'll also talk about this as like you feel like you're in the same relationship over and over, it's just a new actor.
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You know, it's like, oh, here I am again in the same dynamic, but it's a new person.
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Um, and it's not working.
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It didn't work before and it doesn't work now.
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Um so any of any of that sort of instability where it's like my relational meet needs are going unmet, I find myself like repeating patterns.
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Um, a lot of us without attending to the trauma, if we don't attend to the trauma, will repeat the patterns of our childhood.
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So, like if we had a a pretty misattuned caregiver, we're likely to have a misattuned partner and that and friends and you know that sort of thing.
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So I would say like the relational instability piece is big.
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Um, the other thing I see, and this it breaks my heart, and it like really is like the foundation of like why I do the work that I do and why I've made the pivots I've made, even in my business over the last few years.
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Um people are so profoundly hard on themselves.
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So, so hard on themselves, and no one is harder on themselves or more self-critical than a complex trauma survivor.
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What do you mean when you say very hard on themselves?
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Like every single thing, uh what I will find, and it's not even necessarily that they know they're being hard on themselves.
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A lot of times people will say, Oh, I'm not, I'm not being hard, and I'm like, Woo.
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Uh we, you know, a lot of times if what I'll hear from people is this like reorientation back to self.
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So let's say you and I are hanging out, and maybe, maybe you're just not having a great day, like what which is reasonable.
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You're a human, some days are not great days.
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Um, but I might internalize that you're acting a little bit different today.
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And so, you know, if we are someone who doesn't have a strong sense of self because our agency was kind of hijacked in our childhood because of these relational dynamics and with our caregivers, um, I might be quick to assume, well, if you're having a bad day or I'm I'm observing your behavior is different, it must be because you're mad at me.
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It must be because I've done something wrong.
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So now it's not only you're mad at me, it's I've done something wrong, and uh-oh, now I need to change so I can please you.
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Well, one, that's gonna fuel some of that relational instability because you're not a part of that story.
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Actually, that's a story all about me.
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I'm taking something about you and making it about me.
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So it's like uh what I find will happen is they they will use any stimuli in their environment to make it like some sort of weapon against themselves.
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Right.
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And it's really hard to to heal and recover if like you're grabbing hold of everything and making it your fault.
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And I understand, I mean, this isn't like to say you're doing anything wrong or bad.
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Like, this is a common pattern, something that happens.
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It and as a child, it was super, super protective to imagine everything was your fault because you're relying on a caregiver.
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So if you see that it's their fault, like, well, then we're cooked, right?
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Like, if I can't, if I see like, uh-oh, mom or dad is the problem, now I'm stuck with them.
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I'm stuck with the problem, I would feel helpless.
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So a child growing up in an environment like that tends to think it's all their fault.
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Because then it's like, well, then I have a sense of control.
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If it's all my fault, I can change something.
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If it's all my fault, I can do something different and the environmental change.
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I'll be safer.
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And so then we like take that into adulthood and we assume like I have a lot of control over my environment, which means any little thing that goes wrong must be because of me.
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And that's that is a pattern we have to break.
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And that that is a hard pattern to break for people.
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I find that takes years to unwind.
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Can you talk to me about that concept of control?
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Um, how often do they act from that place of control?
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Like, okay, I I'm like you mentioned earlier, they get this sense of like, okay, this has got to be my fault.
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So I can have someone to blame.
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I can kind of, in a sense, protect myself by knowing that I'm the one at fault and I have control over that.
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Um, what other areas might you see them kind of trying to assert a certain control to have a sense of a balance in their lives?
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When we feel helpless, we are likely to want more control.
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I I see this in um the way people will meet their basic needs, like not eating enough or not noticing when they have a need to go to the bathroom or depriving themselves water.
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And it may not even be intentional.
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Sometimes I think it is, um, but it may not always even be intentional.
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It'll be like, it'll be like, well, I can power through.
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I don't need it.
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It'll be like these conditions, these stories about yourself.
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Like, I don't need breakfast.
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Well, that's a story.
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I mean, because people need to eat, like that, that's just a truth.
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Food is survival, uh, it is crucial for survival.
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And so sometimes people will write these stories about what their intake should be based on either a norm in their family system, a cultural or societal norm, um, some way they're trying to like override like hunger cues.
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It'll be like the control, even about that.
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Like, I'm overriding my hunger cues so that I can function or so that I can like look a certain way or an attempt to look a certain way.
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Um, and I think that that like that is definitely one place.
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I see the control.
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Um, another will be like I think a lot of like well, people pleasing perfectionism, I think those are both functions of control as well.
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Yeah.
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Where it's like they're attempting to, like, you know, kind of the example I gave a moment ago, like if I if I assess that you might be having an off day and I make it about me, now I might go out of my way to try to please you, right?
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So, like that is me attempting to control the situation between you and me.
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I'm attempting to control your mood by by showing up differently, you know?
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Um, perfectionism is obviously a another factor here.
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So, like, I will do it all.
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I don't need help from anyone, I will clean the whole house, I will do every task, and and then resentment builds, you know?
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So it's like I I control it, I want it all to be my way.
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I don't I want to maybe be seen as super capable, but like secretly I'm really resentful about that.
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Yeah, control can be such a complicated thing on its own, right?
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And like feeling that you've kind of gained that sense of control when everything is sort of crumbling around you can be uh sort of your own kind of calming in the storm.
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Um, and so what happens to individuals that lose that control, say they they do find themselves like unable to change that dynamic in that relationship that they've worked so hard to like maintain.
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A lot of times that's what brings people to therapy or to healing work in general, is like I'm feeling out of control.
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I mean, the number of times I've heard that from a client.
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Um, and and so then I really, you know, what does control mean?
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And often what people are they'll use the word control, but really what they're looking for is containment.
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So it's I feel what they really mean if we give them more words and we we teach them about their body, the nervous system, what's happening, what they really mean to say is not I feel out of control, it's I feel dysregulated.
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And it's not that I need control, I need containment.
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Healthy, reasonable containment, you know, like and and when we can work with those things, dysregulation and containment, then we can help someone to understand that like not every we can actually weather some activation.
00:17:42.480 --> 00:17:51.359
We can weather and tolerate ambiguity, but a traumatized nervous system struggles with ambiguity because ambiguity feels unsafe, looks unsafe.
00:17:51.519 --> 00:17:52.960
I don't know what to expect here.
00:17:53.200 --> 00:17:59.759
And complex trauma survivors, particularly those that experience childhood trauma, thrive, live on predictability.
00:18:00.000 --> 00:18:02.079
If I do XYZ, it becomes a math problem.
00:18:02.240 --> 00:18:06.319
If I do XYZ in my childhood, my parents will respond A B C.
00:18:06.880 --> 00:18:07.680
So I know what to do.
00:18:07.759 --> 00:18:08.880
I create a formula.
00:18:09.200 --> 00:18:11.279
And as long as I do that formula, everything works.
00:18:11.359 --> 00:18:13.759
Well, that's how we apply that's that's control.
00:18:14.000 --> 00:18:15.519
I do this, this is the outcome.
00:18:15.680 --> 00:18:18.319
Well, what about when I do this and the outcome isn't that?
00:18:18.480 --> 00:18:20.880
Now I have to assume, oh, I've messed up, right?
00:18:21.039 --> 00:18:25.759
So now if I've messed up, again, using air quotes, I'm I'm dysregulated.
00:18:25.920 --> 00:18:28.640
Because I'm like, uh-oh, my formula didn't work.
00:18:28.799 --> 00:18:29.599
Now what?
00:18:30.000 --> 00:18:33.119
So really we have to kind of we are we honor that.
00:18:33.279 --> 00:18:38.720
This is this is adaptive coping, it makes sense, your body's doing whatever it has to do to survive.
00:18:39.039 --> 00:18:41.440
And really what we're looking for is not control.
00:18:41.680 --> 00:18:44.720
We're not looking for I can predict this exact thing.
00:18:44.960 --> 00:18:47.279
And uh, if I predict it exactly, I'll be okay.
00:18:47.440 --> 00:18:53.440
What we're looking for is I can trust me to navigate anything that comes in front of me.
00:18:53.599 --> 00:18:55.279
And that's such a paradigm shift.
00:18:55.359 --> 00:19:01.839
It's being able to really like embody self-trust and know that, like, okay, I don't have to have a math equation between you and I.
00:19:02.000 --> 00:19:09.119
I can trust that no matter how you show up and no matter how I shop show up, we'll be okay because we're gonna be in the conversation together.
00:19:09.279 --> 00:19:18.720
And so rather than you acting different, me saying nothing, internalizing it, making about me, then acting different to try to control your behavior, I might say, like, hey, Jenica, are you doing okay?
00:19:19.039 --> 00:19:20.079
How are you today?
00:19:21.039 --> 00:19:26.160
And I invite a conversation between you and me, and then you get to feel seen and heard.
00:19:26.720 --> 00:19:29.759
I don't have to carry it as something that's wrong with me.
00:19:29.920 --> 00:19:36.720
Because most of the time, if we're talking about, you know, these sorts of situations, it it's not something we should be internalizing, first and foremost.
00:19:36.880 --> 00:19:37.920
We should be checking in.
00:19:38.079 --> 00:19:38.960
Maybe you are upset.
00:19:39.039 --> 00:19:43.440
Maybe I said about me, maybe I said something that was hurtful or that didn't land well for you.
00:19:43.519 --> 00:19:47.519
But maybe you're like, yeah, I didn't sleep well last night and I just feel a little on edge.
00:19:47.680 --> 00:19:50.319
And I can say, Oh, I'm sorry, that sucks.
00:19:50.480 --> 00:19:52.240
Do you do you want to end our hangout early?
00:19:52.319 --> 00:19:53.519
Do you feel okay to do this?
00:19:53.680 --> 00:20:01.200
You know, and now we've we have strengthened a relational bond between you and me instead of me going home holding like you must be mad at me.
00:20:01.279 --> 00:20:03.279
And now you and I are even further apart, right?
00:20:03.359 --> 00:20:07.039
So that's part of that recapitulation of that like relational disturbance.
00:20:07.359 --> 00:20:21.279
In some kind of previous episodes, they've touched on this, maybe not using the exact same terminologies, but they've talked a lot about like um a very on a very spiritual level, like getting in touch with your higher self or you know, trusting in the universe beyond us.
00:20:21.440 --> 00:20:30.559
And um, and what you're kind of saying is that in a way it's this it's similar in that you're choosing to let go of that control into trusting yourself.
00:20:30.720 --> 00:20:36.640
Whereas, you know, a lot of these spiritual healers are like, okay, trust in, you know, the the wider kind of world.
00:20:36.799 --> 00:20:45.440
Um, so what are some of the things that you work on with these clients that are having this kind of really, really rigid uh outlook on life and that sense of control?
00:20:45.599 --> 00:20:50.880
Are you are you kind of teaching them things like affirmations or like is it like a certain technique?
00:20:51.039 --> 00:20:53.359
Yeah, how how do you teach them this?
00:20:53.680 --> 00:20:57.279
Yeah, I mean, I this so I refer to my like way of being with people.
00:20:57.359 --> 00:21:00.400
So I'm actually I don't see clients in it for therapy any longer.
00:21:00.480 --> 00:21:05.759
I I'm also a somatic experiencing practitioner, so I do more of the body-based healing work.
00:21:05.920 --> 00:21:09.440
Um, you know, I fit 15 years experience as a therapist.
00:21:09.519 --> 00:21:13.680
I'm EMDR trained, definitely feel like a complex trauma expert in many ways.
00:21:13.839 --> 00:21:28.240
Um, but just over the the last few years, I feel my work has shifted to be more in the like, um, certainly we're we're talking, we're talking about someone's experience, but it feels much more like meeting someone human to human as opposed to like therapist to client.
00:21:28.319 --> 00:21:31.759
Um, and that that's just that has felt like an important shift in my work.
00:21:31.839 --> 00:21:41.759
And I think I I'm saying that to say, like, for me, it was there was something about like I want to join with this person in in their lived experience of their body.
00:21:42.079 --> 00:21:47.519
Because most of us don't live in our bodies, we live in our heads, we live in the past, we live in the future.
00:21:47.759 --> 00:21:51.039
Um, you know, we're thinking about what's next, we're ruminating on the past.
00:21:51.200 --> 00:21:52.799
But what about like right now?
00:21:53.599 --> 00:21:57.839
You know, and even as I say that, I find myself slowing down.
00:21:58.079 --> 00:21:59.759
Like, what about right now?
00:22:00.240 --> 00:22:00.400
Now.
00:22:00.559 --> 00:22:06.720
And so I'll really think of my approach with clients as like ferocious gentleness bringing them into the moment.
00:22:06.960 --> 00:22:10.799
Like I will be so on your side until you're ready to be on your side.
00:22:11.119 --> 00:22:17.839
It's a hard sell for someone to come in and trust themselves when they have been taught that the world is not safe.
00:22:18.640 --> 00:22:21.359
You know, they've had to make themselves a problem their whole life.
00:22:21.519 --> 00:22:37.039
So I'm slowly, ferociously, we're gonna with with lots of validation and lots of dedication to the work, but we're gonna slowly help them build their relationship with themselves so that they can see like, oh, I actually can navigate anything I come into contact with.
00:22:37.200 --> 00:22:40.000
And the things I can't navigate, no one would be able to navigate.
00:22:40.160 --> 00:22:41.519
So it's not just me.
00:22:41.839 --> 00:22:48.960
It's it's that I actually day to day don't experience things that are outside of what I can handle.
00:22:49.279 --> 00:22:52.160
Now, that again, that's that we do that slowly over time.
00:22:52.319 --> 00:23:06.319
And what we're trying to do is help someone to see one, see themselves more fully, more comprehensively, not just as good or bad, not just as controlled or out of control, um, you know, we might in nervous system terms, not just as like regulated, dysregulated.
00:23:06.400 --> 00:23:10.079
I mean, we become, you know, activated all like various times throughout the day.
00:23:10.160 --> 00:23:14.000
So this idea that we're like chasing a calm, like, well, we're not doing that either.
00:23:14.240 --> 00:23:18.480
What we're saying is I can be dysregulated and work back towards my baseline.
00:23:18.559 --> 00:23:21.279
It's like, how quickly do I recover from dysregulation?
00:23:21.440 --> 00:23:21.680
Yeah.
00:23:21.839 --> 00:23:27.599
You know, like if if we're sitting here, like I have a window behind me, if something hit my window, I would startle.
00:23:27.839 --> 00:23:29.039
Well, that's a reasonable response.
00:23:29.119 --> 00:23:30.559
That doesn't mean I'm out of control.
00:23:30.880 --> 00:23:34.240
That means I'm having a proportionate response to my environment.
00:23:34.480 --> 00:23:41.200
When people are living in the past and in the future, a lot of times their responses to the right now are not proportionate.
00:23:41.519 --> 00:23:47.680
And so if we can help them slow down and be in this present moment, then we can have more proportionate responses.
00:23:47.839 --> 00:23:49.839
Someone will feel like they can trust themselves more.
00:23:50.000 --> 00:23:56.960
So there's really this like relationship between can I slow down and be right here, right now, and can I notice that actually I handle it okay?
00:23:57.119 --> 00:24:00.079
So like if something hits my window, I have some agency.
00:24:00.240 --> 00:24:09.839
I could like get up and I can go look and see, oh, it was a bird that was pecking on my window, and I can see the bird and the they've moved away, and now I know that there's not a threat.
00:24:10.000 --> 00:24:12.799
Something isn't trying to come into my house and and harm me.
00:24:12.960 --> 00:24:28.000
Um, and so ideally, because I've noticed what happened in the present moment, I attended to it, I turned towards it, and then I can see, oh, it was okay, or I'm okay, then ideally my body will begin to return back to a non-activated baseline.
00:24:28.319 --> 00:24:37.680
And so, you know, it's it's trusting yourself to do that though, to slow down enough to look at what's real and what's happening right here, right now, without the influence of trauma.
00:24:37.839 --> 00:24:38.799
But that takes time.
00:24:38.960 --> 00:24:43.680
You know, we're changing the relationship we have with the outcomes of our experiences.
00:24:43.759 --> 00:24:46.880
So yeah, I can't change the outcome, but I can change my relationship to it.
00:24:47.039 --> 00:24:54.400
So, like in your example, I might even say to someone, well, well, you weren't rejected, you just weren't progressed to the position because they don't know you.
00:24:54.640 --> 00:25:02.640
So maybe they rejected your application, maybe they re rejected what you shared in a one-hour interview, but they don't they don't know you.
00:25:02.880 --> 00:25:04.079
You were not rejected.
00:25:04.240 --> 00:25:09.119
And in fact, we you know, we can't take that on as like a categorical I was rejected by this company.
00:25:09.200 --> 00:25:13.599
It has to be like this company didn't assess me as a good fit for whatever they're looking for.
00:25:13.759 --> 00:25:15.920
I can't know exactly what they're looking for.
00:25:16.160 --> 00:25:26.480
You know, even if someone puts up job requirements and I think I meet all of them, they may have an idea that they're not communicating on paper, you know, and so this is where I think the nuance has to also come in.
00:25:26.559 --> 00:25:36.720
Like we don't actually know the totality of anything that's going on, you know, and so like the person who doesn't you you send the email and you're like, oh, I like why didn't I get the position?
00:25:36.880 --> 00:25:41.519
Like I want the feedback, and the person doesn't respond, they might that might not be their practice.
00:25:41.680 --> 00:25:45.200
It might not be like they're like, oh, well, she was a particularly bad candidate.
00:25:45.279 --> 00:25:46.559
I don't want to tell her, right?
00:25:46.640 --> 00:25:49.200
But like again, when we're hard on ourselves, that's the story we write.
00:25:49.359 --> 00:25:53.039
I suck, I'm awful, I'm never gonna get a job, I'm never gonna be paid well.
00:25:53.279 --> 00:25:58.160
And and I'm not saying like, I mean, believe me, I understand like our social location influences this.
00:25:58.319 --> 00:26:07.599
Like, if we have less resources, if we're working class, if we're a person of color, if we're queer, like that that is going to influence how the world experiences us and how we experience the world.
00:26:07.680 --> 00:26:08.400
So that is real.
00:26:08.480 --> 00:26:10.960
I would never take that out of the conversation.
00:26:11.200 --> 00:26:15.119
And it's not the case that you are just awful to everyone all the time.
00:26:15.680 --> 00:26:23.200
You know, it might be that that person who's not responding to you has a thousand emails and like your email got lost in in the shuffle.
00:26:23.440 --> 00:26:27.200
It might be that like their company doesn't permit them to send the feedback.
00:26:27.359 --> 00:26:29.839
It might be um, you know, any anything, right?
00:26:29.920 --> 00:26:33.200
It could be there's so many things that actually could be happening for that person.
00:26:33.359 --> 00:26:38.880
They might, you know, they might have their own people pleasing stuff and say, like, oh gosh, I'm uncomfortable, I don't know what to say to this person.
00:26:39.119 --> 00:26:46.720
Um, and we have to allow room for like more story to exist than the the traumatic story we've, you know, had to hold on to for safety.
00:26:47.039 --> 00:26:59.359
Can you tell me a little bit more about that nervous system that you kind of like uh told us a little bit about and what might that look like for a person who's living in that complex trauma versus coming out of it and rewiring that narrative for themselves?
00:26:59.599 --> 00:27:09.279
Yeah, so someone who experiences, you know, the too much too fast or not enough for too long, um, their nervous system is likely to be more reactive to their environment.
00:27:09.519 --> 00:27:14.640
Um, so so like we'll stick with my example of like something hitting the window and startling me.
00:27:14.799 --> 00:27:29.200
Um, a traumatized nervous system will experience something like that, like, oh, I hear this loud sound, and the nervous system is gonna become like the sympathetic nervous system is going to like and I and I'm simplifying this a little bit, it's gonna be different in everybody's system.
00:27:29.359 --> 00:27:34.400
But um in a traumatized nervous nervous system, what we're likely to see is that sympathetic dominance come on.
00:27:34.559 --> 00:27:38.160
So, like that people will often refer to this as your fight-flight response.
00:27:38.319 --> 00:27:40.880
Um, you know, we also see freeze as a function of that.
00:27:40.960 --> 00:27:56.079
That often gets left out of the equation when we're talking about activation, but freeze is part of activation as well, um, that we'll see that the person becomes highly activated, and even it even once the stimuli has ended, so there's no longer, you know, the sound at the window.
00:27:56.240 --> 00:28:05.359
I I can look and see there's no one out there, even after the threat or the perceived threat has been alleviated, the system does not settle.
00:28:05.759 --> 00:28:13.119
How have you kind of noticed over the um course of maybe your treatment with a client, how have you noticed that that sort of like change as well?
00:28:13.279 --> 00:28:15.200
And what physical ways have that change for them?
00:28:15.440 --> 00:28:22.559
One of the things I'll often notice in clients before they notice in themselves is that they will be more present even with me.
00:28:22.640 --> 00:28:24.400
Like I can get away with more.
00:28:24.559 --> 00:28:26.240
I can push a little bit more.
00:28:26.400 --> 00:28:29.039
I can and when I say push, what I mean is like in their favor.
00:28:29.119 --> 00:28:31.279
Like I'm not trying to activate my clients.
00:28:31.440 --> 00:28:34.559
Um, but it's like they'll allow me to support them a little bit more.
00:28:34.799 --> 00:28:40.960
I can get a little relationally closer to them without them feeling like they need to like defend or push away.
00:28:41.119 --> 00:28:44.319
Um, you know, so it'll start to show up in our work together.
00:28:44.640 --> 00:28:55.119
Or the other way I see it is like they'll come in and they'll tell me something like um they'll tell me a story that, you know, a year ago, if they had told me the same story, their reaction would have been really different.
00:28:55.279 --> 00:28:57.039
And sometimes I'll see it and they won't.
00:28:57.119 --> 00:29:03.359
Like they'll tell me a I can think of a client is coming to mind right now that told me about an experience I'd had with their mom.
00:29:04.079 --> 00:29:08.799
And I was like, in the moment, like, wow, she handled this really, really well.
00:29:08.880 --> 00:29:10.480
Um, that's what's happening in my mind.
00:29:10.559 --> 00:29:13.920
And and and the client was pretty quick to like dismiss how they handled it.
00:29:14.000 --> 00:29:20.160
And I was like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, a year ago, two years ago, you would not have handled this this way.
00:29:20.240 --> 00:29:24.880
And so like I brought the past into the conversation to say, like, look at the growth you've had.
00:29:25.119 --> 00:29:38.000
And, you know, we're handling things better because of the nervous system work we're doing, you know, because I'm not as reactive, I'm not, you know, my nervous system isn't in such extreme activation all the time, then I'm able to be more present.
00:29:38.160 --> 00:29:41.759
I can be, you know, the threat doesn't feel like it's as high.
00:29:41.920 --> 00:29:44.799
So now I can handle my situations better.
00:29:44.880 --> 00:29:47.920
Um, and so I remember bringing that into the conversation for the client.
00:29:48.000 --> 00:29:56.240
Like, let's let's remember, okay, you may not love how you handled this, that's fair, but like, did you or did you not handle this differently than you would have a year or two years ago?
00:29:56.400 --> 00:29:59.839
And she was like, oh yeah, I I definitely handled it differently.
00:30:00.000 --> 00:30:00.960
And so that's it too.
00:30:01.039 --> 00:30:04.720
It's like we're looking to track like how it's not about perfection.
00:30:04.799 --> 00:30:06.960
It's not about I handled it wrong, now I'm handling it right.
00:30:07.039 --> 00:30:12.799
It's about, did I handle this differently and in my favor more so than I did previously?
00:30:13.119 --> 00:30:16.720
What about in terms of like attachment and attachment styles?
00:30:16.960 --> 00:30:25.920
You know, I would assume that a person that's coming from complex kind of trauma has got a bit of a warped attachment style, either really avoidant or really uh anxious.
00:30:26.079 --> 00:30:28.720
Um, have you noticed that and have you noticed that change?
00:30:28.960 --> 00:30:30.000
Absolutely, yeah.
00:30:30.240 --> 00:30:33.519
Um, I see a lot of insecure attachment in the work that I do.
00:30:33.599 --> 00:30:39.680
And, you know, here's something I will say is um I don't so I really like the work of Diane Poole Heller.
00:30:40.079 --> 00:30:43.519
Um, she talks about attachment as attachment adaptations.
00:30:43.759 --> 00:30:58.400
Um, and so that we have these like ways of responding and engaging that have formed, but that it's not a discrete, like, I am anxiously attached, but rather that like I have anxiety in my attachment style or there's insecurity in this, right?
00:30:58.559 --> 00:31:05.920
Um, and so I really like thinking about attachment from that lens that like, well, most of us have some security in our attachment.
00:31:06.240 --> 00:31:13.200
And what we're needing to do, in my opinion, is to amplify where we feel that security so that the insecurity can settle some.
00:31:13.440 --> 00:31:21.200
So one thing I'll see in my work a lot, and I I I would say over the last um, I've been in private practice since 2019.
00:31:21.359 --> 00:31:27.039
Um, so seeing clients one-on-one in one sh one way or another since then, um, doing the work that I like to do.
00:31:27.119 --> 00:31:30.319
So, like outside of a an academic setting or what have you.
00:31:30.559 --> 00:31:42.000
Um and what I think I see a lot is that my clients will feel insecurely attached when it comes to like romantic partners, maybe even friendship.
00:31:42.240 --> 00:31:47.359
Um, but a lot of them will have like great security with work, for instance.
00:31:48.079 --> 00:31:58.880
So it's like they can they can interview, they can get a job, they can keep a job, they can interact with their coworkers, all of that's fine, but it's romantic relationships where it goes wrong, or it's like I can't make friendship.
00:31:58.960 --> 00:32:02.559
And so what that tells me is well, and also you were able to get a job and maintain a job.
00:32:02.720 --> 00:32:05.920
So you have some security, relational security, you know.
00:32:06.000 --> 00:32:11.039
So I so then I'm trying to understand with the client, like, well, what's different in this environment than that environment?
00:32:11.119 --> 00:32:13.680
And a lot of times it comes down to intimacy, you know.
00:32:13.759 --> 00:32:17.200
So, like at work, I'm not as intimate as I am with like a partner or someone I'm dating.
00:32:17.279 --> 00:32:19.039
So, well, then we can look at the dating patterns.
00:32:19.200 --> 00:32:20.880
Well, what's what's happening with intimacy there?
00:32:20.960 --> 00:32:26.160
Are we doing slow over time, or is it like we're telling our entire trauma story on date one?
00:32:26.319 --> 00:32:32.640
Are we having a date that's seven hours long, we're blowing out our nervous system, and now we're not even assessing is this person a good fit for me?
00:32:32.880 --> 00:32:36.079
You know, so I would say, you know, my work is skewed.
00:32:36.160 --> 00:32:37.759
I see a lot of insecure attachment.
00:32:37.920 --> 00:32:49.119
A lot of times in my work, it'll be someone who's like maybe more disorganized in how they present, um, but certainly with elements or features of anxiety, like anxious attachment or avoidant.
00:32:49.279 --> 00:33:01.599
Um, but really the way I try to think about it is like, well, we're working with these adaptations and we're trying to gently encourage someone to find some earned security in these connections and also earned security with themselves.
00:33:02.079 --> 00:33:02.319
Yeah.
00:33:02.400 --> 00:33:10.079
And I was just about to ask it, do you feel like it's more important or most important for them to sort of work on their security with themselves, on their relationships with themselves?
00:33:10.160 --> 00:33:18.880
And then everything kind of stems after that, like all the external relationships kind of build on that, on that foundation of like, okay, I've built my self-love and self-efficacy.
00:33:19.039 --> 00:33:20.799
Or can it be the other way around as well?
00:33:21.599 --> 00:33:25.599
I think it's a both and, you know, I I we heal in relationship.
00:33:25.680 --> 00:33:26.880
I mean, I think that's the truth.
00:33:26.960 --> 00:33:29.359
And we can't overlook the relationship with ourselves.
00:33:29.519 --> 00:33:35.839
So I always want someone tending to themselves, but but I'm not one of the believers that's like work on you first before you go date.
00:33:35.920 --> 00:33:38.319
No, I mean we have to experiment, we want to learn, right?
00:33:38.400 --> 00:33:41.119
So, what I would say is important is the titration.
00:33:41.200 --> 00:33:44.400
So that's that's a term utilized a lot with somatic experiencing.
00:33:44.559 --> 00:33:46.799
Like, we want to take things in small doses.
00:33:46.960 --> 00:33:53.759
You know, that's why I'll like a client who's dating, I'll say, let's do a two-hour date at max for the first date, first few dates.
00:33:53.920 --> 00:33:56.079
Um, don't go to someone's house on the first date.
00:33:56.160 --> 00:33:58.960
Like, and this isn't like, I mean, I'm a sex positive person.
00:33:59.039 --> 00:34:01.519
This is not about like, oh, don't, don't hook up with someone.
00:34:01.680 --> 00:34:07.680
But if we're if we have a traumatized nervous system and we're wanting to do something different, then we have to have some different behaviors.
00:34:07.839 --> 00:34:10.239
So we don't need to be too much too fast either.
00:34:10.400 --> 00:34:11.360
And that's what happens.
00:34:11.519 --> 00:34:14.000
If something was too much too fast for my system, well, guess what?
00:34:14.079 --> 00:34:15.760
Now I run with urgency in my life.
00:34:15.920 --> 00:34:18.800
And I'm like, oh, a little feels good, a lot'll feel better.
00:34:19.039 --> 00:34:20.480
Well, that's not actually true.
00:34:20.639 --> 00:34:22.559
A lot will overwhelm the system.
00:34:22.639 --> 00:34:24.880
And now our brain goes offline and we have no idea.
00:34:24.960 --> 00:34:26.239
Is this person a good fit for us?
00:34:26.400 --> 00:34:27.440
Do I feel safe with them?
00:34:27.599 --> 00:34:30.559
We're like running on endorphins and a high activation.
00:34:30.719 --> 00:34:32.320
So it's low and slow.
00:34:32.559 --> 00:34:39.039
Can we do something a little bit different in our daily life that helps our system to experience something different?
00:34:39.280 --> 00:34:46.239
And that relationship is really, I think, where we see a change in like, you know, our relationship with ourselves and our relationship with others.
00:34:46.320 --> 00:34:51.119
So I think we can do both at the same time, but never neglecting ourselves and the relationship with ourselves.
00:34:51.360 --> 00:34:57.119
What are some ways that you sort of like build on those habits of like self-love, self-care, self, you know, relationship building?
00:34:57.360 --> 00:35:02.239
A lot of times I'll start with like getting your basic needs met because a because many of us are not very good at that.
00:35:02.320 --> 00:35:16.480
And you know, whether that's trauma influenced or if it's just like our culture says we have to like work, work, work, um, you know, and never take breaks, uh, you know, I'm I'm wanting to encourage someone to begin to listen to their body in ways that feel accessible to them.
00:35:16.639 --> 00:35:22.400
Um, so one of the things I'll sometimes have clients check in about is like, how do you know when you're thirsty?
00:35:22.719 --> 00:35:24.960
What cues do you get that you're thirsty?
00:35:25.199 --> 00:35:27.119
And you know, a lot of times people don't know.
00:35:27.199 --> 00:35:30.400
And so I'm wanting to like strengthen that that knowing.
00:35:30.559 --> 00:35:35.519
So, you know, like I might share, like, well, when I'm thirsty, my mouth begins to get a little bit dry.
00:35:35.840 --> 00:35:44.719
And I can tell that it's dry because like as I'm talking, I start making this sound, you know, where it's like uh a new a new mouth sound is formed, right?
00:35:44.880 --> 00:35:48.159
Um, I might notice that my throat feels a little bit scratchy.
00:35:48.480 --> 00:35:50.079
These are cues that I'm thirsty.
00:35:50.239 --> 00:35:52.960
So what do I I feel that I notice the cue, what do I do?
00:35:53.119 --> 00:35:53.840
I drink water.
00:35:54.000 --> 00:35:56.480
So in that moment, I'm meeting my own need.
00:35:57.039 --> 00:36:07.039
And it's micro, and people don't necessarily think about that sort of stuff as nervous system work, but when we've been conditioned out of our bodies, we have to heal back into them.
00:36:07.119 --> 00:36:24.000
And so if we're not drinking water, we're not eating, we're not going to the bathroom when we're supposed to, we're not moving our body in in healthy and gentle ways, safe ways, um, if we're not um resting in the way that we ought to, well, our body doesn't know that we're in relationship with it.
00:36:24.159 --> 00:36:31.440
You know, I can I could sit here at my desk for 12 hours, like I could do that um without ever getting up, but how am I gonna feel on the other side of it?
00:36:31.519 --> 00:36:33.119
And I need to be tending to that.
00:36:33.360 --> 00:36:40.639
So at the end of my workday, if my back hurts and I'm thirsty and I'm like, oh, I didn't eat all day, well, that's a sign I've ignored my body all day.
00:36:40.880 --> 00:36:43.119
And our body is not gonna teach us new things.
00:36:43.199 --> 00:36:47.679
We're not gonna be in the present moment if we're starving, if we're dissociated, if we're thirsty and ignoring it.
00:36:47.840 --> 00:36:52.880
Um, you know, so what I'll say is like if you feel the urge to go to the bathroom, you get up and you go right then.
00:36:53.199 --> 00:36:54.960
If you feel thirsty, you drink water.
00:36:55.039 --> 00:37:00.159
I keep a water bottle with me like a hundred percent of the time, and I encourage clients to do that too.
00:37:00.400 --> 00:37:18.320
Um, if they are disconnected from their hunger cues, either because of like prolonged exposure to diet culture or dieting or what have you, I say, okay, well, like let's decide some like meal times and set timers on in your phone, and we're gonna begin to show the body that it's safe to eat again, and then hunger will come back.
00:37:18.559 --> 00:37:21.519
You know, hunger cues don't come when we've been ignoring the body.
00:37:21.599 --> 00:37:24.000
So we can't expect the the cue to come first.
00:37:24.079 --> 00:37:25.920
We have to encourage the cue to come back.
00:37:26.159 --> 00:37:35.920
And then before we know it, we're we're able to move outside of the very important work of meeting our basic needs into like a more relational sort of experimentation, right?
00:37:36.000 --> 00:37:48.159
So, like, um, you know, if someone's like getting upset about like, oh, I haven't heard from my friend or I text my friend and they haven't texted back, we might work with like, well, what are all the things, all of the reasons why this person hasn't texted you back that's not about you?
00:37:48.559 --> 00:37:54.800
You know, and that's it's hard to do because we're like, we're still kind of guessing, but we're not looking to get to the bottom of it.
00:37:54.880 --> 00:37:56.800
It's not like, oh, okay, here's the right answer.
00:37:56.960 --> 00:38:09.119
It's like, oh, I'm just looking for flexibility in my thinking and flexibility in my narrative that like more than one thing could be happening, and I may not be like uh like the the reason something is not going well.
00:38:09.360 --> 00:38:11.440
I also really liked what you said about that somatic thing.
00:38:11.519 --> 00:38:16.480
And you know, you you you focused a lot on the survival aspect, you know, you're hungry, you're thirsty, you need rest.
00:38:16.559 --> 00:38:19.119
So it's like our physical body is in need of these things.
00:38:19.280 --> 00:38:22.000
Can you talk to me a little bit about like the emotional aspect?
00:38:22.159 --> 00:38:34.880
So if you're feeling um, if you're feeling lonely, you're experiencing that feeling of loneliness, um are your clients able to sort of tell what does that feel like, where can they feel it, what might it look like?
00:38:35.119 --> 00:38:39.440
Yeah, and it's I was I was taught a similar sort of like you go to where do you feel that in your body.
00:38:39.519 --> 00:38:43.679
That was that's definitely an intervention that psychology utilizes as well.
00:38:43.920 --> 00:38:47.039
Uh I really like asking people instead of like where do you feel that?
00:38:47.119 --> 00:38:51.360
I think we can get to that, but that's not often a first place people can go.
00:38:51.599 --> 00:38:56.559
Um, I might really get curious about well, what does happiness feel like?
00:38:56.960 --> 00:38:58.880
And how do you know you're feeling it?
00:38:59.840 --> 00:39:04.239
Because it's a different now we're in a different conversation because I don't know what happiness feels like to you.
00:39:04.480 --> 00:39:06.320
I know what happiness feels like to me.
00:39:07.280 --> 00:39:16.239
To me, happiness feels warm and it feels vibrant and it and it feels a little tingly, but in a comfortable way, not overly tingly.
00:39:16.559 --> 00:39:19.440
Um, because I'm not thinking excitement, I'm thinking just happiness.
00:39:19.760 --> 00:39:24.960
Um, I I feel like with happiness my eyes widen because they can soften, I can take more in.
00:39:25.199 --> 00:39:33.360
And as I'm telling you, I begin to feel like in my solar plexus, I can feel like, oh yeah, that's where happiness resides often inside of me.
00:39:34.079 --> 00:39:38.639
You know, but but we're taking it out of just like, you know, where do you feel that?
00:39:38.719 --> 00:39:46.400
That's we're cause we're kind of asking the brain to decide, as opposed to like letting the sensation decide where it wants to reside.
00:39:46.719 --> 00:39:47.039
Right.
00:39:47.760 --> 00:39:47.920
Yeah.
00:39:48.239 --> 00:39:48.559
Yeah.
00:39:48.719 --> 00:39:51.039
So I I kind of like this exploration around feelings.
00:39:51.119 --> 00:39:53.920
Like, like you mentioned loneliness um as a feeling.
00:39:54.239 --> 00:39:58.079
I I mean, I think a lot of us are chronically lonely um and feeling disconnected.
00:39:58.159 --> 00:40:02.480
And you know, so what I'm gonna get curious about with my client is like, what does loneliness feel like to them?
00:40:02.800 --> 00:40:03.119
Yeah.
00:40:03.360 --> 00:40:05.199
How do they know when they're lonely?
00:40:06.000 --> 00:40:08.719
How do they know when they're not feeling that loneliness?
00:40:08.800 --> 00:40:11.519
So again, we're looking for that differentiation in the body.
00:40:11.920 --> 00:40:18.559
And then, you know, really the goal before we ever try to change a feeling or a sensation or emotion is to be with it.
00:40:18.800 --> 00:40:20.639
Can you be with that loneliness?
00:40:20.960 --> 00:40:26.559
A lot of times what'll happen is our feelings will become amplified because we're quick to move past them.
00:40:26.800 --> 00:40:31.199
So a lot of us are like shoving loneliness and especially grief, shoving it down.
00:40:31.280 --> 00:40:35.360
It's like, oh, it's there, okay, I don't want to feel it, hide it away.
00:40:35.519 --> 00:40:38.079
Well, we can't actually do that with feelings and sensations.
00:40:38.159 --> 00:40:39.760
They they remain inside of us.
00:40:39.920 --> 00:40:50.880
And so, you know, the I I mean this sounds so cliche to say, but like when people say the only way out is through, I I think they're talking about emotions and sensations because it's not until we feel it that it can move on, you know.
00:40:50.960 --> 00:40:54.320
So I might say, can we be with that loneliness together in here?
00:40:54.480 --> 00:41:02.079
Like if you can't be with it on your own, can you and I be with it together first so that you see you can actually hold loneliness on your own?
00:41:02.239 --> 00:41:05.679
The feeling loneliness or feeling grief is not a threat to your existence.
00:41:05.760 --> 00:41:11.440
And in fact, these are real human experiences that if we push them off, then we're not letting ourselves be fully human.
00:41:12.000 --> 00:41:12.719
And it sucks.
00:41:12.800 --> 00:41:16.800
We don't want to feel lonely, we don't want to feel grief, and it's a reality of our lived experience.
00:41:16.960 --> 00:41:27.039
And if we allow ourselves to feel that end of the spectrum, then we'll also allow ourselves to feel things like excitement and joy and awe and those things that are also a part of our human condition.
00:41:27.360 --> 00:41:32.320
Uh, what do you say to people who get stuck in the narrative?
00:41:32.480 --> 00:41:35.440
They they get stuck in the story as opposed to the feeling.
00:41:35.840 --> 00:41:37.199
How do you help people move through that?
00:41:37.760 --> 00:41:39.519
I think uh a couple of different ways.
00:41:39.599 --> 00:41:43.599
The first thing that comes to mind is like we're just trying to expand the narrative a little bit then.
00:41:44.239 --> 00:41:52.239
Like, we're not gonna say the narrative doesn't count, we're not gonna discard the narrative, but I might I might ask them to like expand it just a little bit.
00:41:52.639 --> 00:41:57.519
Like, like maybe this isn't uh the one and only thing that could be occurring here.
00:41:57.760 --> 00:42:00.639
And and a lot of times I'll do that with like sharing my own reactions.
00:42:00.719 --> 00:42:08.239
So, you know, someone will come in and they'll say, This this thing happened between me and a friend, um, so it means XYZ.
00:42:08.639 --> 00:42:12.559
You know, they'll have like a very particular, like, well, this happened, so it's this.
00:42:12.719 --> 00:42:15.599
And I might say, Wow, help me see that how you see it.
00:42:15.840 --> 00:42:20.000
Because that's not I don't get the same, I'm not getting to the same place you are.
00:42:20.239 --> 00:42:20.559
Interesting.
00:42:20.719 --> 00:42:22.800
Um, and that's that's often very shocking, you know.
00:42:22.880 --> 00:42:24.159
Clients will be like, What is this?
00:42:24.239 --> 00:42:24.639
Is obvious.
00:42:24.719 --> 00:42:26.639
Well, this is the one obvious way it's supposed to go.
00:42:26.880 --> 00:42:30.320
And and I'm like, well, it's it is one way, it is one option.
00:42:30.480 --> 00:42:34.159
Um, but my mind says, Well, it could be this, it could be that, it could be this.
00:42:34.320 --> 00:42:42.079
And even if they don't adopt any of the things I'm saying, I'm gently nudging them to see this is maybe not the totality of the story.
00:42:42.239 --> 00:42:45.599
Just like the totality of their story isn't that they're a trauma survivor.
00:42:45.679 --> 00:42:47.840
That's a piece of them, that's a piece of their life.
00:42:48.079 --> 00:42:56.480
But they are also many other things, and I want them to be many other things because that's how we build healthy, sustainable lives that we actually want to live in.
00:42:56.800 --> 00:43:10.559
How how have you have you navigated or worked with um either uh adults who've had narcissistic parents, family members, caregivers, or who might present with narcissistic tendencies themselves?
00:43:10.719 --> 00:43:18.320
Uh, you know, you you mentioned that it can be like a very, very overload sensory kind of childhood experience uh that leads to a sort of trauma.
00:43:18.480 --> 00:43:33.360
Is it possible that um a child could experience an overload of like loves loving sensations of an overhyping of their um sense of concept, the sense of self that can lead to narcissistic tendencies?
00:43:33.440 --> 00:43:35.920
And would you characterize that as trauma?
00:43:36.320 --> 00:43:38.480
I would absolutely characterize it as trauma.
00:43:38.639 --> 00:43:39.280
I would.
00:43:39.519 --> 00:43:41.760
Because to me, that would be the too much too fast.
00:43:42.079 --> 00:43:42.480
Yeah.
00:43:42.639 --> 00:43:42.960
Yeah.
00:43:43.119 --> 00:43:43.360
Yeah.
00:43:43.599 --> 00:43:45.360
Yeah, it'd be flooding the child system.
00:43:45.519 --> 00:43:50.719
You know, if we don't have a pr a proportionate experience in childhood, we're probably going to have some symptomology.
00:43:50.880 --> 00:43:53.280
And and I say that in like the least pathologizing way.
00:43:53.360 --> 00:43:54.320
I mean, it just makes sense.
00:43:54.400 --> 00:43:59.760
If our environment is not safe and we don't get to learn how to just be and explore and and grow.
00:44:00.159 --> 00:44:03.199
And be in like a kind of normative developmental process.
00:44:03.360 --> 00:44:05.199
Well, yeah, we're gonna have an outcome for that.
00:44:05.440 --> 00:44:12.400
You know, I also think I I tend to conceptualize like anything in that, like, you know, we would in the DSM, we would think about this.
00:44:12.480 --> 00:44:19.840
So the diagnostic manual for psychologists and psychiatry, we would think about this um as like the cluster B presentation.
00:44:19.920 --> 00:44:26.400
So this is like narcissism, borderline personality disorder, a historianic personality disorder, antisocial personality disorder.
00:44:26.559 --> 00:44:30.239
Um, I conceptualize all of those from a trauma lens or through a trauma lens.
00:44:30.320 --> 00:44:32.400
Again, not everyone will agree with me on this.
00:44:32.559 --> 00:44:39.039
Um, but I do think that these personality traits and characteristics form as a response to the environment.
00:44:39.199 --> 00:44:41.360
Now, is there some predisposition?
00:44:41.519 --> 00:44:41.840
Sure.
00:44:41.920 --> 00:44:44.719
Like of course, it's there's nature plus nurture all the time.
00:44:44.880 --> 00:44:52.559
But if we live in an environment where no part of our self-agency gets to be honored, well, that's going to disrupt our personality.
00:44:52.800 --> 00:45:01.280
What I will say in the work that I've done is um over the years, you know, and I think disorganized attachment is pretty categorically a cluster B presentation.
00:45:01.360 --> 00:45:05.760
So uh that often to me and my work has looked like borderline personality disorder.
00:45:05.920 --> 00:45:14.480
What I'll say is, and and I'm not working in a diagnostic, you know, system any longer, but you know, conceptually, a client might say, like, do you think I have borderline personality disorder?
00:45:14.639 --> 00:45:22.159
And I'll I'll say, I think you are displaying some of the traits, and I think that makes a lot of sense given this disorganization in your attachment.
00:45:22.320 --> 00:45:26.960
And so it's not that I would ever like discount someone's diagnosis by any means.
00:45:27.039 --> 00:45:30.000
Um, but I really want them to, again, this is part of expanding the narrative.
00:45:30.079 --> 00:45:33.840
You are not simply a diagnosis, you arrived here because of a lot of experiences.
00:45:34.000 --> 00:45:37.280
So if we change the experiences, might some of those symptoms alleviate?
00:45:37.519 --> 00:45:39.119
And I have seen it time and time again.
00:45:39.280 --> 00:45:54.559
Where like absolutely, and I especially think when I was like um working in um, I worked in a veterans affair system, um, medical system, where clients were coming in with like pretty major personality, like many diagnoses.
00:45:54.639 --> 00:45:56.079
I was the kind of medical model.
00:45:56.239 --> 00:46:06.880
Um, and I can think about in our work together over a year, some of my clients would begin to have like alleviated symptomology related to these, like kind of what we classically think of as personality disorders.
00:46:06.960 --> 00:46:09.199
And and I knew it's because we were tending to the trauma.
00:46:09.280 --> 00:46:13.679
So if we tend to the trauma and the full person, then some of the symptoms alleviate.
00:46:13.760 --> 00:46:17.280
So I'm not real sold on like I think diagnosis is important.
00:46:17.360 --> 00:46:26.559
I don't know how much we need to be diagnosing, like we can have the framework of like, oh, there's narcissistic traits here, or maybe this person meets criteria for narcissistic personality disorder.
00:46:26.719 --> 00:46:27.840
But really, what do we do with it?
00:46:27.920 --> 00:46:30.000
That's the thing that's more important to me than like what is it?
00:46:30.079 --> 00:46:31.519
It's well, what do we do now?
00:46:32.159 --> 00:46:32.800
Yeah.
00:46:33.360 --> 00:46:42.719
I I find that really interesting because like um, you know, I think there is so much uh opinion out there right now on social media regarding, you know, narcissistic personality disorder.
00:46:42.960 --> 00:46:45.840
So many people, more victims than anything, right?
00:46:46.000 --> 00:46:51.519
People we would say victims, people who've kind of been in relationships or been raised by someone who's a narcissist.
00:46:51.599 --> 00:46:57.920
So there's so much of that going around, and then the comments of being like, yep, this person is a narcissist, like hate, hate, hate on them.
00:46:58.079 --> 00:47:09.360
Um, and the there have been a lot of times where, you know, and there are, I guess, some accounts out there that kind of do try to share the other side of it, you know, like, okay, but that is also coming from some form of trauma.
00:47:09.599 --> 00:47:13.679
But um, I I kind of find it interesting how it is very skewed one way.
00:47:13.920 --> 00:47:32.960
Um, so I I I've kind of really wanted to understand this really from a professional perspective, something that's more objective, something that can kind of really uh help to understand it on a more uh professional sort of like um well, you're highlighting something really important, which is like when something becomes mainstream, everyone starts talking about it.
00:47:33.119 --> 00:47:35.440
And like, you know, and I feel really mixed about this.
00:47:35.519 --> 00:47:50.880
Like, we're talking about trauma, complex trauma, the nervous system, somatic experiencing way more today than we were when I got into the field initially, and certainly even over the last five years, people's like knowledge and exposure, and you know, social media is really uh at the crux of why that is.
00:47:51.280 --> 00:47:58.320
What I don't like that happens is this like over-identifying with the terms, you know.
00:47:58.400 --> 00:48:04.880
So, like the truth of the matter is there are not as many narcissists, people with narcissistic personality disorder as people claim.
00:48:05.199 --> 00:48:06.960
Like it that is just not the case.
00:48:07.199 --> 00:48:12.800
Now, does everybody have the capacity and potential to display some narcissistic traits?
00:48:13.199 --> 00:48:15.039
Yeah, of course we do.
00:48:15.360 --> 00:48:19.119
Of course, and I think what ends up happening, and I'm not narcissism is real.
00:48:19.199 --> 00:48:23.039
I'm not ever going to tell someone who's experienced harm that they haven't experienced harm.
00:48:23.280 --> 00:48:26.880
But sometimes we experience harm and so does the other person.
00:48:27.039 --> 00:48:30.000
You know, sometimes there's not a perpetrator in a dynamic.
00:48:30.239 --> 00:48:32.159
There absolutely sometimes there absolutely is.
00:48:32.320 --> 00:48:38.000
But you know, if you and I are in a relationship and I feel hurt by you, that doesn't make you, that doesn't immediately make you a narcissist.
00:48:38.079 --> 00:48:39.679
You might also feel hurt by me.
00:48:39.840 --> 00:48:48.000
And I think a better conversation for us to be having is how do I connect and collide with people in my own life and who am I drawn to?
00:48:48.159 --> 00:48:55.840
Because now we're looking at both our role, our responsibility, our traits, and also the traits of the people we're drawn to, which highlights our patterns.
00:48:56.000 --> 00:48:58.559
You shouldn't be in a relationship with someone who causes you harm.
00:48:58.719 --> 00:48:59.119
Of course.
00:48:59.199 --> 00:49:00.880
I believe that wholeheartedly.
00:49:01.039 --> 00:49:03.920
And you play a role in your relationships as well.
00:49:04.079 --> 00:49:08.320
And I really don't want anyone to hear me, I'm not, or hear me as victim blaming or anything like that.
00:49:08.559 --> 00:49:09.440
I'm absolutely not.
00:49:09.519 --> 00:49:13.119
I'm and in fact, someone who's being victimized by someone, there's never to blame.
00:49:13.199 --> 00:49:14.719
There's no responsibility on them.
00:49:14.880 --> 00:49:24.480
But but if we're talking about a an otherwise healthy dynamic, it's just not the case that every ex you have is a narcissist and every person who's harmed you is a narcissist.
00:49:24.559 --> 00:49:36.880
And I think that narrative ends up overriding the truth, which is that like actually we need to look at like what is drawing us to the same person over and over, particularly if the traits these people have are hurtful to us.
00:49:37.199 --> 00:49:39.199
Like, that's a conversation we can do something with.
00:49:39.280 --> 00:49:44.960
When we're quick to label another person, it's like, yeah, you know, a client might say to me, like, oh, all my exes are narcissists.
00:49:45.039 --> 00:49:46.719
And I'm like, yeah, that might be true.
00:49:47.039 --> 00:49:51.039
And what's happening where you're drawn to the same pattern over and over?
00:49:51.199 --> 00:49:53.280
Because that's what I can do with someone who's sitting in the room.
00:49:53.360 --> 00:49:57.840
What I can't do is is know about all of these other people and all of their specific traits, you know.
00:49:57.920 --> 00:50:02.480
So I think it's not about like dismissing the story, but I think it's about shifting it again.
00:50:02.559 --> 00:50:04.719
It's like I'm I'm saying the same thing again, right?
00:50:04.800 --> 00:50:07.280
Like expanding the narrative, shifting it back to you.
00:50:07.360 --> 00:50:09.039
Like what can we work with here?
00:50:09.199 --> 00:50:16.800
Because the relief will come when you feel like you're choosing different people, not by like, you know, getting validation that, like, yes, your ex was a narcissist.
00:50:16.880 --> 00:50:22.559
Like, you know, and and I'm I'm like, I don't know, I don't know that person, but if you feel harmed by the experience you had, I believe that.
00:50:22.800 --> 00:50:33.119
Can you just kind of tell me a little bit about how like CPTSD can be different from C T, like complex trauma?
00:50:33.440 --> 00:50:35.519
Oh, complex trauma from complex PTSD.
00:50:35.760 --> 00:50:39.920
Yeah, so I think of like complex trauma as the experience.
00:50:40.079 --> 00:50:47.199
So, like we talked about at the beginning, um, the any anything that's too much for or not enough for your nervous system for your body to handle.
00:50:47.360 --> 00:50:51.599
Um, complex PTSD, we're we're more looking at symptomology.
00:50:51.679 --> 00:50:54.880
So, like what happened in response to the complex trauma?
00:50:55.199 --> 00:51:00.239
Ah, so they do kind of go hand in hand, like CPTSC would happen sort of after.
00:51:00.559 --> 00:51:05.440
Can something like like war veterans, like being in war, can that also be similar?
00:51:05.599 --> 00:51:12.320
Like have you had like war veterans come in as well with and you help them and treat them with like complex trauma in the same way?
00:51:12.719 --> 00:51:25.519
Yeah, it's interesting because the way the diagnostic manual for psychologists and psychiatrists is written, um, it's really written more for single, like PTSD as it's classically thought of, um, is written more for single incident trauma.
00:51:25.679 --> 00:51:27.679
This thing happened, here's the outcome.
00:51:27.840 --> 00:51:35.679
Um, I absolutely think for people who are deployed in wartime or act, you know, whatever.
00:51:36.079 --> 00:51:39.039
I I can't even imagine what that human experience is like.
00:51:39.199 --> 00:51:41.039
How could that not be complex trauma?
00:51:41.199 --> 00:51:51.599
Yeah, you know, and again, this is just my opinion, but like that person, it's we're not just talking about like if you're deployed for months or years, like that how is that not complex?
00:51:51.840 --> 00:51:53.519
Like that's not a single incident, right?
00:51:53.599 --> 00:51:56.000
Like we're talking about many repeated instances.
00:51:56.159 --> 00:52:00.800
So I tend to think a lot of things are complex in if we're talking about trauma.
00:52:01.039 --> 00:52:08.960
I think, you know, when we're talking about single incident, we're sometimes talking about um something that has a designated start and end time that is brief.
00:52:09.039 --> 00:52:17.679
We're not often talking about a sustained, prolonged, you know, because then we you know, like the deployment, we're getting into that like sustained, prolonged, profound experience.
00:52:18.000 --> 00:52:19.039
This is really, really interesting.
00:52:19.119 --> 00:52:21.280
I'm gonna end this interview with one last question.
00:52:21.519 --> 00:52:30.480
If you can tell me about a case that you've worked on that really stands out to you where you've really made a change on a person's life, uh, yeah, please share something along those lines.
00:52:30.800 --> 00:52:33.119
I'm so proud of so many clients that I have worked with.
00:52:33.199 --> 00:52:35.679
I mean, with all of my clients, because healing is hard work.
00:52:35.920 --> 00:52:43.519
Um, when I think about something like notable to share, I I actually can like almost put a couple clients together for this story.
00:52:43.679 --> 00:52:43.840
Yeah.
00:52:44.000 --> 00:53:00.079
Um, watching someone who, you know, I think about people I've worked with for many years, which that's a lot of my clients, come in and be, like I said earlier, like really against themselves, lots of relational instability, lots of self-blame, neglecting their own body in terms of basic needs.
00:53:00.239 --> 00:53:02.719
Um, that's how a lot of my clients have started.
00:53:02.960 --> 00:53:07.360
Um and I can think about the folks that get to a stage where they're like, you know what?
00:53:07.440 --> 00:53:09.280
I think I could come less often.
00:53:09.519 --> 00:53:13.840
And they're beginning to like assess themselves as like, I can handle it without you.
00:53:14.079 --> 00:53:15.199
I could do this on my own.
00:53:15.360 --> 00:53:20.239
And then, you know, the folks that have gotten to the day where they're like, uh, I could stop coming.
00:53:20.400 --> 00:53:21.760
I'm doing this well enough on my own.
00:53:21.920 --> 00:53:23.119
Like, like, I'm pretty okay.
00:53:23.280 --> 00:53:27.360
Or, you know, they'll start coming into sessions and being like, I don't have any idea what to talk about.
00:53:27.440 --> 00:53:29.199
It was all pretty fine since I saw you last.
00:53:29.280 --> 00:53:33.760
And it's like, wow, that's like huge growth over what hand what happened before.
00:53:33.920 --> 00:53:41.039
And sometimes it's that people's circumstances change a little bit, but it's so often that like their experience of their circumstances is what's changed.
00:53:41.199 --> 00:53:47.119
It's like your life doesn't look that different today than it did the day I met you, and yet look at how much differently you're living.
00:53:47.360 --> 00:53:48.880
And that to me is such a beautiful thing.
00:53:48.960 --> 00:53:59.119
I could like get tearful even now thinking about like watching someone live their life, be in their own life day to day, is such a freaking beautiful thing and really motivates me to do this work.
00:53:59.280 --> 00:54:06.239
Um, and because really I'm helping someone see what's possible for themselves and what they are capable of, and that's just the coolest thing.
00:54:06.480 --> 00:54:07.840
Yeah, that's amazing.
00:54:08.079 --> 00:54:14.000
And usually, like, how long sort of would it potentially take uh to kind of go through the whole thing from the beginning to the end?
00:54:14.320 --> 00:54:20.239
You know, I I I struggle to to answer that because it's like it's so different depending on what your system could handle.
00:54:20.480 --> 00:54:30.960
What I will say is I really believe that complex trauma healing is not brief work, it's not something we're gonna accomplish in 10 to 15 sessions, um, you know, because what needs to happen first is safety.
00:54:31.039 --> 00:54:35.360
So how long does it take you and I to establish safety between us, however long that takes.
00:54:35.440 --> 00:54:45.679
And then once you feel safe enough with me, um, then your system will begin to do some things differently in in your sessions with me, and then you're ready to experiment with how you show up differently in your life.
00:54:45.920 --> 00:54:48.320
Also, new stressors will like delay this, right?
00:54:48.480 --> 00:54:58.480
So if like you're you're on the right trajectory, you're feeling a little bit more resourced, and then a new trauma occurs or a new stressor happens, um, people are are likely to experience like a little bit of a setback in that.
00:54:58.559 --> 00:55:01.280
And that, you know, as I'll always say, a setback is not a start over.
00:55:01.360 --> 00:55:03.920
We're we're just like learning something new about your system.
00:55:04.079 --> 00:55:09.679
So um I would most of my clients I I've seen for a handful of years, and that that varies anywhere.
00:55:09.840 --> 00:55:14.639
Typically, I would say on the lower end, um, two-ish years, higher end.
00:55:14.719 --> 00:55:17.519
Some of my clients I've been seeing over six years at this point.
00:55:17.840 --> 00:55:18.800
Wow, yeah.
00:55:19.039 --> 00:55:28.000
I think that's also really important for people to sort of like hear, because like I think, you know, we really live in a world where everyone wants that sort of immediate gratification, that immediate result.
00:55:28.159 --> 00:55:48.079
And so it's important to understand that all good things take time and it takes trust, especially when you're coming in with low sense of low efficacy or a sense of like low sense of self, it can be really hard to feel like okay, that it's worth to continue to do this, but just to kind of trust in the process and trust that you know you will get there at some point and your life will get much better.
00:55:48.320 --> 00:55:54.400
And you know, no matter how long that takes, you just have to trust your your mind and your body that it'll happen when it's ready, right?
00:55:54.719 --> 00:55:55.199
Exactly.
00:55:55.360 --> 00:55:55.679
Yep.
00:55:55.920 --> 00:55:56.079
Yeah.
00:55:56.320 --> 00:56:00.480
Final words, anything else you'd like to share to our listeners before we uh end the interview?
00:56:00.800 --> 00:56:05.039
I want people to know that healing is possible and you deserve it.
00:56:05.280 --> 00:56:18.800
And so even if it's been hard to come by or you have moments of feeling hopeless, or um, you know, you feel unsure if it'll help ever happen for you, you desiring to heal, you desiring to feel better means you are already doing the work.
00:56:19.039 --> 00:56:23.039
And most of us are so afraid that we are like, you know, we haven't started yet.
00:56:23.119 --> 00:56:24.639
Like, when will I start to feel better?
00:56:24.960 --> 00:56:33.519
You'll start to feel better when you begin to acknowledge that you're already healing because you survived the thing or the many things that you had to endure.
00:56:33.679 --> 00:56:34.480
I love that.
00:56:34.800 --> 00:56:40.000
Such a beautiful sort of like final validation to give to listeners as well.
00:56:40.400 --> 00:56:46.800
Yeah, thank you so much for being on the podcast and sharing such useful information with us today and with our listeners.
00:56:47.360 --> 00:56:48.880
Sure, thanks for having me.
00:56:49.280 --> 00:56:53.920
If you enjoyed the episode and would like to help support the show, please follow and subscribe.
00:56:54.159 --> 00:56:58.400
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00:56:58.719 --> 00:57:03.440
I'd like to recognize our guests who are vulnerable and open to share their life experiences with us.
00:57:03.679 --> 00:57:05.840
Thank you for showing us we're human.
00:57:06.559 --> 00:57:10.239
Also, a thank you to our team who works so hard behind the scenes to make it happen.
00:57:10.559 --> 00:57:12.880
Lucas theory, Stefan Menzel.
00:57:13.519 --> 00:57:15.119
The show would be nothing without you.
00:57:15.599 --> 00:57:20.239
I'm Jenica, host and writer of the show, and you're listening to Multispective.