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Well, here we are on objection number three in our series of eight most common objections to church multiplication.
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And we're really excited to have my co-host again, Michael Bronson is joining.
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Michael, how are you today?
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Hey, Paul. Good to see/ hear you. It's always fun hanging out.
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It's good to see you too.
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I was thinking about, some things about my childhood recently, and one of the things I was thinking about, was this what I wanted to do when I grew up? And, I don't know, what did you want to do when you grew up?
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Do you remember that?
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Like, as a little kid?
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Oh, wow. Yeah, when I was a little kid. Like, are we talking really young? Like, this is-- Oh, I don't know.
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Mid--. Let's say mid- to upper- elementary.
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Okay. Well, the first thing I ever wanted to do when I first started school was I wanted to be a crossing guard because it had the word guard in it.
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And my plan was I was going to flip the stop sign upside down and use it as a sword, you know, keep people safe, you know? So that was that was my ambition as that my first career that I wanted.
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So --- And I think they still -- I think they even pay for that.
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It's not a lot but they do pay for the crossing guards.
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Oh yeah.
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That's kinda nice.
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That's right.
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When I grew up, I had lots of different things, probably professional athlete.
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But I remember like when-- Do you remember that-- So this was like when I was an adult, when the, when the show Suits came out? Do you remember Suits?
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Oh yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
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Harvey Specter, he's a legend.
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Yeah yeah yeah. Okay. Yeah.
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So I was like, I, I didn't watch when it first came out. Binged it like nine seasons in about nine hours.
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Like, like I just did it as fast as I could.
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And then I realized, no, no, no.
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What my real calling in life was to be a lawyer.
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Because what I wanted to say
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"I object".
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Which kind of ---which leads us--- and great segue, Paul -- It leads us into the objection that we are talking about today.
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And, so if I happen to say "I object" during this podcast, you'll know why.
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Here's the objection we're talking about today, Michael.
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We should be investing into revitalizing churches instead of planting new ones.
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Okay.
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Yes, that's right.
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Why is -- This this is a common objection that I've heard a lot since I've been in this role.
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Why has it got legs?
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Why is this?
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There's some merit here.
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Yeah, well, first off, there's probably many lawyers that become lawyers to do that.
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And they never have the chance to say "I object" so --.
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I object! All the sympathy to all those lawyers that are never able to say that but -- And all they do is write letters and get paid very well.
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Yes that's right.
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Oh yes.
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Yeah, yeah. We're all, we're all jealous of the finances there.
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Yeah. That's -- it's -- That's a common objection right?
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To multiplication.
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Why should we be starting new churches when there's churches that aren't growing and they're maybe plateaued or possibly even shrinking.
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So obviously we should be putting our effort into that.
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And I think, I think probably every single one of us knows some leaders that are leading really healthy churches that are really growing. And we probably all know leaders that are in churches that are the complete opposite of that.
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So at first glance, it makes sense.
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And can I tell you an analogy that I thought of Paul?
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I think this --.
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Yeah, go ahead.
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I think this works well with this.
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Because, I understand where people are coming from. And, you know, here on this podcast, we want to make sure we're still manning some arguments.
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We're not just giving the fluff and, you know, trying to dismantle the fluff. No, no, no. Like this.
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It's a legit argument.
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And it's almost like, imagine having a farmer who who has a field and the farmer's trying to bring in a harvest from that field. Imagine, this farmer is not bringing a return. Like, the field is just not working. There's no harvest.
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Why on earth would that farmer then go and buy another second field and try doing it again when the first one isn't working at all?
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And I feel like that's kind of the perspective that a lot of us have when we think about this argument. And it's true, if you think of it from that viewpoint.
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But much like the previous podcast, we're going to take a step back.
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And what we want to do is we want to look at that objection from a different angle and a different viewpoint. Because it doesn't have to be from that perspective.
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So I'm excited to talk about that today.
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This is perfect because we have got a guest that's going to help us think this through. His name is Jeremiah Raible.
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He's the Vitalization Coach or one of the visualization coaches in the Alberta Northwest Territories District of the Pentecostal Assemblies of Canada.
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He is a future thinker.
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He's great at all things tech.
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He was a polka band drummer once and he's super fun to be around.
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Jeremiah Raible, welcome to the podcast.
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Hey, thanks so much for having me, Paul.
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That was one of the best stories ever. That polka bad story.
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Perhaps another time.
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But, when when we think about this, objection to church multiplication, obviously, you're involved with visualization, working with all kinds of churches.
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When I say we should be investing into revitalizing churches instead of planting new ones, this is your world.
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Why does this carry some merit?
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Well, I think about the same objection I heard when I worked in international missions.
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Why are we sending people overseas when we need to send people here?
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And it's this either/or mentality.
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I don't -- I'm not quite, I don't quite understand where that comes from.
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And I think the reason why it has legs, though, is because there-- Seven out of ten existing churches are in decline, in plateau.
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You know, in 2019, the CBC reported that 10,000 churches will close in ten years.
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And that was before Covid.
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I think that's expedited.
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So there is you know, churches are closing. They're losing their land.
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I mean, this is land you'll never get back, zoning you'll never get back. So there is quite -- Yeah, there's quite a need here in Canada.
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For the last four decades, the church has been on the decline.
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And I think some of that has just-- What's happening with our existing churches, and when they see these new churches pop up or, in some cases, you go to one church and there's three other churches renting in one church.
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And it's just saying, okay, well, what's happening with the Canadian church? And again, I think the heart of it is we want to see more people come to Christ in Canada. We want to reverse the trend from decline to growth.
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But I don't know if that's the only way is simply to revitalize only.
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But I do think that that's coming out of a heart of looking at the current trajectory of the Canadian church and say, well, boy, something has to be done and is the only thing that we can do to close the existing church and plant new ones.
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Now, I'm not sure if that's the answer either.
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Right.
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And I do think that, for me, this objection-- I find myself agreeing with because I think healthy churches do multiply.
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Like at least they have the opportunity. It's embedded -- like the kingdom of God, multiplication, is embedded into the church that Jesus is building.
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But if it's not healthy -- You know, you reproduce often what you are. And so it makes sense to just say, hey, stop planting, stop planting, because we've got gotta, you know, we've got to make sure that our churches are vitalized.
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And there's a lot of truth in that. But it's a both/and conversation. It's like saying to someone, okay, everybody stay in grade seven until we all get to grade seven.
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There's some churches in -- like there's some churches that are ready to start multiplying.
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There's some churches that are healthy, growing, got good disciple making culture.
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They're ready to go.
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They're ready to launch.
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So for me, I think what we're going to center in on today is I think we're going to nod our heads and say, this is actually a legit point, except it's either/or thinking.
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And what we really need is both/and thinking.
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And I think that's where we're going to land today.
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Is there any other -- Michael, do you have any other things you want to add before we move on?
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Yeah. Well, Jeremiah, what was that stat you just said?
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It was seven out of ten churches?
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Seven out of ten churches are plateaued or declining.
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Yeah. Wow.
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And is that is that all Canadian churches or with PAOC specifically?
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Yeah, I mean 80% -- The general stat is 80% of Canadian churches are in plateau and decline.
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Wow.
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That's, that's-- Okay, so we got to do something about this.
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Okay. There you go.
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How could anyone say that vitalization -- Like, it like revitalization-- Like, we need it if we're sitting at 30%.
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And I think this was an Ed Stetzer stat, it was something like 85% of churches aren't -- No, 80% of churches, like you said, of that plateaued or declining, 15% are growing by-- Transfer. You're looking for the word transfer-- Transfer growth, thank you.
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And then there's only 3 to 5% that are growing through new conversions.
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Can we talk about that for a second too? Yeah. Because we all know that transfer growth is way, way easier than new conversion growth because, you know, if someone moves in from a different town or says, oh, I'm coming from this church and this sort of thing, what do they ask?
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Oh, so how do I start serving?
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And, oh, so how do you do your giving here?
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Oh, will you do it through tithely.
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Oh, you do it through e-transfer.
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Oh, you do it through cash.
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Perfect. All right.
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I'll set that up.
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And we've all had those conversations.
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And trust me, those are beautiful conversations, those are great days for our budgets and this sort of thing.
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But we probably have all been in that scenario, too, where there's this new Christian that says, you know, for the first time of, oh, I'm supposed to give to this? You know, and it's just the process of discipleship is hard work, and it takes a long, long time.
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And, you know, I'm just thinking of people in our, in my church context where, you know, it's they're years in and finally, finally after, you know, attempted mentoring and reaching out and phone calls and coffees and just it's finally taking these simple steps of, you know, you take it for granted.
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So I see why transfer, you know, a big chunk of the growth in the church is just transfer growth. But I think you said it before, Paul.
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You were challenged me on this, and a group of planters.
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It's we cannot be just aiming for transfers.
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It must be new conversion.
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Like this, this is what God wants right? For the kingdom.
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And the reality is, though, I mean, the reality is any church that's growing will grow, 75% will be transfer growth.
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And that could also be people, especially in Canada, coming into the nation from other Christian, predominately Christian nations.
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They'll come in and they'll attend a church.
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So you want to aim, you aim for, you know, new convert growth.
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It's a challenge because, you're right, because there is a bit of that shifting sheep mentality.
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Certainly in, you know, let's say North American church - I can't speak for the rest of the world - but certainly there is that, Hey, not really, you know, not really jiving with this or it's not working for my kids. And all of a sudden, you know, you're gone to somewhere else.
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But but the focus that we try to build in - and, Jeremiah, this is not -- I mean, you can talk to this as well because we talk about vitalization processes -- The focus is reaching people far from God. It's no different than a church plant.
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Right?
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100%.
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Yeah. So everything about visualization is moving towards the same things that a church plant is going towards.
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You know, Jesus told us, I think I've talked about this before, just told us to expand the kingdom and make disciples.
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And Paul the Apostle said that we're going to do that through planting local churches.
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And every, every one of our churches that we have in Canada was a church plant at one point, but has lost its, you know - if you've lost your missional mojo and become plateaued or declining, sometimes you need help. And one of the stats that I found fascinating when we talked about visualization/multiplication - and I want to talk about one process thinking in a little bit.
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Because I think visualization multiplication should just be one process in the timeline.
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But one of the things that I think that was super interesting to me was that a church plant, after three to four years, their new conversion rate drops to a level of existing church.
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And what I think should happen, and I've advocated for this, is that a church plant at three, four or five years should actually do a revitalization process, built right in.
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Right.
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So that's why I think this, it's not, you know, two tracks side by side, or, you know, they're veering off.
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It's the same process, that every church should be a multiplying church.
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But in order to do that, you need to be healthy.
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So any thoughts on those things, specifically around one process thinking?
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Yeah. Gears working together.
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Right.
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Both sides working together.
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And the focus is always missional.
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We use the term re-envisioning.
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We use the term replanting.
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You know, so it's a lot of the same.
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It's the, you know, a church planter could be a replanter or a revitalizer. A person who's revitalized the church could plant.
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The characteristics of those leaders are catalytic.
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They're the same, kind of you have to be a catalytic, vision caster, managing change, all of those things, that have to happen.
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So it's very similar.
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Yeah. Michael, we've talked about this before of, you know, thinking like a church planter is actually a great way to think about visualization, because the things you need to think about in vitalization are the same things you need to think about as a church planter.
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I mean, you've done that.
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You've done the church planting thing. Any thoughts on that?
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Yeah. And that's the thing, right?
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Like, in some cases, one of the best ways to revitalize a church is, is to really sometimes what we actually need to do is just say, you know, we're going to actually push pause on this church for about six months.
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You know, the core who's a part of it, stay a part of it.
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Let's revision. Let's reimagine.
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And it's like what you said, Jeremiah, let's replant this and treat it like a church plant.
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You know, I can think of a couple examples where that's just what happened to a church.
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And, you know, it was kind of spinning some wheels.
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It just wasn't gaining traction.
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Let's try this idea.
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Let's try this idea.
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And what they needed to do, though, at the end of the day was, you know, let's just shut this down for a little bit and relaunch this. And I'm thinking of these examples and it's just, they're absolutely booming now.
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New disciples being made, people being baptized.
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And it's it's something that we -- Well, it's it's like what we said, right. It's not do we do this or do we do this.
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It's no, no, no. Let's do both of these. And sometimes it's merging them together and doing them at the same time. Right.
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A church will plateau when -- like, no church grows like this.
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A church always plateaus.
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And when it plateaus, what happens is the the activities that got them to that growth, they begin to double down on those activities, and then it begins to crust over and becomes the barrier for future growth.
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It doesn't matter if you're three years old or 20 or 100 years old. It's the same process.
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When you plateau, you actually, you keep reinforcing the things you did and it keeps you in plateau.
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Rather than re-imagining, re-envisioning and emerging to a new level of growth.
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And that's what happens in every church.
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Yeah.
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One of the things, Jeremiah, that - and this has happened to a couple different places I can think of Western Ontario district, in our movement - But in Alberta, where a larger, healthier church has taken on a replant, almost.
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Like what's working there?
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The church that needs to be replanted has to be humble enough to ask for help.
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That right across the board, hey?
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And when that happens, hopefully the church that comes in has a missional focus.
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And their focus isn't just to get bigger, but it's to multiply their ministries in that new locale.
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When that happens, it's amazing.
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We've certainly moved on to the dismantling of this objection.
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It didn't take us long because the reality is, is we actually agree with vitalization.
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If the word in -- The word is actually instead of, meaning that we pick one or the other.
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And Michael, you had a thought that I want to explore a little bit, because some people are actually--And Jeremiah, you'd know this and maybe you can give a comment as well-- that there are some leaders that are just geared better for visualization and others that are more, you know, focused on the multiplication side.
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There's just a different passion, maybe skill set.
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There's something that - maybe there's a more pastoral gifting versus an apostolic one, and they just seem to fit better.
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And so if we say you're either this or that, then what do we do with these leaders?
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They end up being on the outside looking in. Michael your thoughts?
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Yeah, I think it's important, especially with this conversation, to acknowledge God has wired us all differently.
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We're all unique people.
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Yeah. Like we said, different, different giftings, different perspectives on things.
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And it's really sad when someone's wired a certain way, and the church as a whole says, no, no, no, don't be like that.
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Be like this instead.
00:18:59.509 --> 00:19:08.375
And, you know, some people are just built, you know, they were just wired to be these fresh, blank page starters of - There's nothing there.
00:19:08.376 --> 00:19:11.118
I see what God could make this.
00:19:11.119 --> 00:19:12.828
And boom, you make that happen.
00:19:12.829 --> 00:19:20.989
Some people are wired to say, I see something right now that maybe isn't fully what God wants it to be, but oh, I see the beauty and the potential in this.
00:19:20.990 --> 00:19:27.019
And neither are wrong to be that. It's, let's discern who God has called us to be.
00:19:27.019 --> 00:19:40.140
And let's just -- Now, listen, sometimes we need to watch ourselves because sometimes it can be out of arrogance, of some people want to be, well, I want the story on the website to be, oh yes, it was 2000 and whatever when my name started this church plant and blah, blah.
00:19:39.140 --> 00:19:45.439
Versus, you know, 50 years ago this person did and this person came revitalized it.
00:19:45.440 --> 00:19:52.068
You know, sometimes it doesn't look as flashy. So I think we need to be careful of that and be self aware.
00:19:52.069 --> 00:19:55.038
But we need to we need to let people be who they are.
00:19:55.039 --> 00:19:58.398
And Paul, I remember you telling me a story years ago.
00:19:58.400 --> 00:20:13.219
I forget we are on a call of some sort. And you were telling, I can't remember the the pastor's name, but there was this pastor in Ontario that was going along the coast of the Hudson's Bay to these little, you know, fishing villages or, or this sort of thing.
00:20:13.220 --> 00:20:26.598
And he saw that these little villages didn't have a church, so he would stay there for a couple of months or something along those lines, start this new church, set up a pastor, and then go on to the next village. And he would just go throughout the Hudson's Bay.
00:20:26.599 --> 00:20:31.909
And it's just this beautiful picture of pioneering and adventure of just, you know, there's just nothing there. It's a blank page.
00:20:31.910 --> 00:20:46.098
And they're going, can you imagine going to this planter and saying, hey, this is great that you're doing this, but there's churches down south below that aren't as healthy as they need to be. So you have to stop doing what you're doing and come here.
00:20:46.099 --> 00:21:06.469
Like, that would just - it would be totally the opposite of what we should be saying. We need to be taking this person who's walking in their calling, walking in their gifting and say, run with this. So does that mean, though, that the churches down in the Toronto area at that time who maybe weren't the healthiest, does that mean they shouldn't revitalize, though, and get healthy? Absolutely not.
00:21:06.470 --> 00:21:12.348
Both of these are so, so important to do at the same time. At the same time, right?
00:21:12.349 --> 00:21:21.318
Yeah. We've seen pastors who who had led their church down, you know, who had into plateau, who have actually turned the church around.
00:21:21.319 --> 00:21:27.858
And that's an interesting thing, where they've learned new skills and they've taken on risk and they've stepped out in new things.
00:21:27.859 --> 00:21:35.689
And I, I think I want to acknowledge that reality is that there are pastors that, maybe think that's not their gift, but it actually is.
00:21:35.690 --> 00:21:39.439
80% of pastors can lead this with help.
00:21:39.440 --> 00:21:52.669
We've seen pastors in our province revitalize one church, and then after four years, leave that church and go to a church that's lower and plateaued and take on the same task.
00:21:52.670 --> 00:22:13.219
So it's an amazing thing when you see leaders step into those callings and giftings and even churches that are now growing, now these pastors are finding themselves - they've never planted before - now they're finding themselves having to think about, okay, I want to plant a church over here. We gotta get a campus over here. I got to raise up leaders.
00:22:13.220 --> 00:22:14.538
So the gift mix.
00:22:14.539 --> 00:22:16.969
The gift mix is incredible.
00:22:16.970 --> 00:22:19.939
But you do have - you can't just stay where you are.
00:22:19.940 --> 00:22:21.169
You cannot stay here.
00:22:21.170 --> 00:22:23.298
You've gotta move forward.
00:22:23.299 --> 00:22:24.318
Yeah.
00:22:24.319 --> 00:22:35.298
And and also, we believe just that with humility and, you know, walking in, you know, God's grace.
00:22:35.299 --> 00:22:42.048
Well, a lot of these leaders can turn things around and can plant churches. People think, well, I could never plant a church.
00:22:42.049 --> 00:22:44.209
Yeah, but you have the Holy Spirit.
00:22:44.210 --> 00:22:45.288
You've got God helping you.
00:22:45.289 --> 00:22:49.219
You've got people that will champion you. I can't revitalize a church.
00:22:49.220 --> 00:22:50.328
Yes you can.
00:22:50.329 --> 00:22:52.459
Holy spirit can help you.
00:22:52.460 --> 00:23:00.279
And so, you know, we we have to remind ourselves that we don't have these limiting thoughts around either of these things.
00:23:00.280 --> 00:23:06.709
Like, well, that's only for so-and-so or that's only -- For us to just say, God, what do you want to do?
00:23:06.710 --> 00:23:14.118
And I'm going to lean into your strength and your power and your wisdom to do it, because I can't do it on my own strength.
00:23:14.119 --> 00:23:21.348
There isn't a pastor out there that can vitalize a church on his own strength. There isn't a pastor out there that can plant a church on his own strength.
00:23:21.349 --> 00:23:31.969
It has to be that deep reliance on the moving of God's Spirit in your life and using the gifts that God has given you for His - that He has gifted you with - for His glory.
00:23:31.970 --> 00:23:35.179
And so it's like reminding ourselves of the body of Christ.
00:23:35.180 --> 00:23:38.449
It's like, how can you just say, we're just going to vitalize churches, we're just going to plant.
00:23:38.450 --> 00:23:43.878
No, there's different gifts to the body. How can one hand to the foot and say, we don't need you?
00:23:43.880 --> 00:23:45.078
That is just not going to work.
00:23:45.079 --> 00:23:51.888
So, one of the things, Jeremiah, we always like to do is bring in the Bible to this conversation.
00:23:51.890 --> 00:23:58.308
Like, is this actually true? Is this something that -- And, Michael, you have some thoughts.
00:23:58.309 --> 00:23:59.118
I have some thoughts.
00:23:59.119 --> 00:24:01.278
And then Jeremiah, we'll lean over to you.
00:24:01.279 --> 00:24:03.359
Michael, what are your thoughts about this?
00:24:04.880 --> 00:24:09.599
You know, I guess I want to restate the counter statement,
00:24:10.519 --> 00:24:19.489
We should be revitalizing churches and planting new churches at the same time.
00:24:19.490 --> 00:24:24.739
Planting new churches does not mean abandoning of the existing churches.
00:24:24.740 --> 00:24:27.378
So is that in the Bible, Michael?
00:24:27.380 --> 00:24:30.439
Yes, it's definitely modeled in Scripture.
00:24:30.440 --> 00:24:37.489
And I just believe that men and women across the country can look at this example and say, you know what?
00:24:37.490 --> 00:24:48.348
If that's in Scripture, I can do that too. So in Acts chapter 16, there's Paul the Apostle and his crew that are traveling around, you know, and
00:24:48.349 --> 00:24:57.679
4 it says, "As they traveled from town to town, they delivered the decisions, reached by the apostles and elders in Jerusalem for the people to obey.
00:24:57.680 --> 00:25:12.108
So the churches were strengthened in their faith and grew daily number." So you have this picture of Paul and this group traveling around building up existing churches, churches that are already established, getting even healthier than they are.
00:25:12.109 --> 00:25:17.749
And then look what happens right after. This famous dream happens, right, where Paul is sleeping.
00:25:17.750 --> 00:25:35.118
And it says during the night, Paul had a vision of a man from Macedonia standing and begging, come over and help us. So you have-- And right before that happened, Paul and his group, they're encouraging established churches and just, you know, making them better and and building them up.
00:25:35.119 --> 00:25:42.888
And then right after, you have Paul and his group going and going and starting brand new works, works that haven't happened before.
00:25:42.890 --> 00:25:50.838
And I think this is -- I love how it's not -- We didn't have to pick and choose like, here's one story of Paul doing this and here's another story of Paul.
00:25:50.839 --> 00:25:52.308
It's within the same story.
00:25:52.309 --> 00:25:53.989
Paul is doing both of these things.
00:25:53.990 --> 00:25:57.499
And it didn't say Paul only planted churches because that's what matters.
00:25:57.500 --> 00:26:01.128
And it doesn't say Paul only encouraged established churches because that's what mattered.
00:26:01.130 --> 00:26:02.808
No, no, Paul was doing both.
00:26:02.809 --> 00:26:05.549
And this is the model that God gives us in Scripture.
00:26:07.289 --> 00:26:08.669
That's excellent. Michael.
00:26:08.670 --> 00:26:12.719
I was reading, just picking up on that, a blog by John Beeson,
00:26:12.720 --> 00:26:19.648
Churches, like people, are intended to be streams, not ponds; Highways, not cul de sacs.
00:26:19.650 --> 00:26:25.078
The book of Acts shows us a healthy church multiplying itself across the Roman Empire and beyond.
00:26:25.079 --> 00:26:26.368
Paul is a church planter.
00:26:26.369 --> 00:26:35.459
Paul's letters to Timothy and Titus are coaching documents -- so we talk about coaching all the time, Jeremiah, for these elder pastors.
00:26:35.460 --> 00:26:38.278
So Paul's taking care of the existing churches.
00:26:38.279 --> 00:26:41.999
He's making sure that they haven't lost their their true north.
00:26:43.440 --> 00:26:46.558
Many forget these letters weren't letters to a single church.
00:26:46.559 --> 00:26:51.269
Paul wrote to one city church, and he didn't write just to one.
00:26:51.269 --> 00:26:53.939
He wrote to a network of churches.
00:26:53.940 --> 00:27:05.128
And these churches were so connected that Paul could write one letter and they would be read by all of them. And as you look at some of the church planting journey, as he strengthened these churches, guess what they did?
00:27:05.130 --> 00:27:26.413
Jerusalem started churches in Samaria and Caesarea, who started grandaughter churches in Antioch, who birthed great granddaughter churches in Galatia and Ephesus, and then the Ephesians, then multiplied, great great granddaughter churches in the cities of Colosse, Hierpolis, and Laodicea.
00:27:28.140 --> 00:27:32.338
So there was a strengthening of the church for multiplication.
00:27:32.339 --> 00:27:35.098
Jeremiah, any thoughts around this?
00:27:35.099 --> 00:27:45.449
Thing that gets me when I go to Revelation, and I see the Lord of the church blowing out the candle of the churches, and I wonder, where are those churches in Revelation?
00:27:45.450 --> 00:27:46.469
Like, did they close?
00:27:48.299 --> 00:27:49.299
And why?
00:27:50.250 --> 00:27:52.828
Disobedience, disobedience.
00:27:52.829 --> 00:27:58.769
And I, again, I don't care if you're one year old or 100 years old as a church, you have got to be obedient.
00:27:58.769 --> 00:28:04.858
Jesus said that you will bear fruit, right? John 15 and what's the fruit?
00:28:04.859 --> 00:28:06.778
The fruit is kingdom expansion.
00:28:06.779 --> 00:28:10.469
Witness. People coming to Christ. People following Jesus.
00:28:10.470 --> 00:28:11.489
Jesus says, I came.
00:28:11.490 --> 00:28:21.509
Why? To seek and save those who were lost. If the church is not about Christ's business, He will not bless that church because that's not His church.
00:28:21.509 --> 00:28:26.759
So I think it's also a call to be obedient no matter what.
00:28:26.759 --> 00:28:30.179
Health is a choice, and it's a hard choice.
00:28:30.180 --> 00:28:35.038
When I want to lose weight, I have to forego that donut from Tim Hortons.
00:28:35.039 --> 00:28:37.108
That's a tough choice for me.
00:28:37.109 --> 00:28:50.759
Health is a choice, and a lot of pastors have to make, and churches have to make, tough choices to be healthy. To follow Christ, even when He leads into places that are scary, even when He leads places that are hard.
00:28:52.130 --> 00:29:09.148
One of the things that, I know that in the vitalization process, one of the very first things that you and others across our nation, in other districts, they walk the church through a time of repentance.
00:29:09.150 --> 00:29:12.388
For disobedience, for not expanding the kingdom.
00:29:12.390 --> 00:29:14.859
For not focusing on making disciples.
00:29:15.450 --> 00:29:19.318
There's a sense of acknowledgment that has to happen first.
00:29:19.319 --> 00:29:36.989
And I think what can happen too, even in church planting world, is there is that initial push for reaching people, reaching people. But once you start growing - Michael, you would know this - once you start growing and expanding and managing some of those things, it's like, I just want to manage the people I have.
00:29:36.990 --> 00:29:38.788
It's really hard to reach more.
00:29:38.789 --> 00:29:41.578
Why would I want to make more work for me?
00:29:41.579 --> 00:29:45.239
But there has to be this sense of because we're obedient.
00:29:45.240 --> 00:29:51.919
And if we're disobedient, well, what do we got to do? We have to confess and repent.
00:29:51.920 --> 00:29:54.048
There's no way around it.
00:29:54.049 --> 00:29:55.038
There's no way around it.
00:29:55.039 --> 00:29:55.848
Thanks for sharing that.
00:29:55.849 --> 00:30:00.469
Because that's really important. This is all about obedience in the end.
00:30:00.470 --> 00:30:03.259
What is Jesus asking us to do?
00:30:03.259 --> 00:30:05.358
So the counter statement is
00:30:05.359 --> 00:30:10.759
We should be revitalizing churches and planting new ones at the same time.
00:30:10.759 --> 00:30:16.308
Planting new churches does not mean abandoning of existing churches.
00:30:16.309 --> 00:30:23.598
So since we believe this is our counter statement, what are some next steps, some practical things that we could do?
00:30:23.599 --> 00:30:25.249
Michael, pass it over to you.
00:30:25.250 --> 00:30:27.169
What can we do here?
00:30:27.170 --> 00:30:28.640
If we believe this to be true?
00:30:29.740 --> 00:30:33.249
Yeah. It takes a different mindset. Right.
00:30:33.250 --> 00:30:34.578
We're not choosing planting.
00:30:34.579 --> 00:30:39.249
We're not saying we're going to only church plant. We're not saying we're going to only revitalize.
00:30:39.250 --> 00:30:47.108
We're going to do both of these things. And kind of tying back to that original analogy that I gave at the beginning of, you know, you have someone has a field.
00:30:47.109 --> 00:30:48.278
It's not bringing in a harvest.
00:30:48.279 --> 00:30:50.979
You definitely don't add a second field. That's true.
00:30:50.980 --> 00:30:54.308
But the good news is, it's not just one person with the field.
00:30:54.309 --> 00:31:02.409
It's an entire community of, you know, stick with the -- we're really going with the farming analogy here -- but it's a whole community of farmers.
00:31:02.410 --> 00:31:05.618
And if some aren't doing well, true, maybe they shouldn't add a second.
00:31:05.619 --> 00:31:16.749
But the truth is, some farmers have some fields that are bringing in a huge return, and those farmers need to keep buying and need to keep expanding and maybe can go and help build others.
00:31:16.750 --> 00:31:19.509
And, you know, it's this false dichotomy, right?
00:31:19.509 --> 00:31:21.278
Do we revitalize or do we plant?
00:31:21.279 --> 00:31:30.939
There's lots of things that are both-and, right. And, like, investing into your relationship with your child and also investing into your relationship with your spouse.
00:31:30.940 --> 00:31:33.278
Right. Both of those need to be invested into.
00:31:33.279 --> 00:31:34.388
You can't choose one.
00:31:34.390 --> 00:31:37.388
Or do we eat healthy or do we exercise?
00:31:37.390 --> 00:31:38.318
Which one do we do?
00:31:38.319 --> 00:31:39.338
Well, no.
00:31:39.339 --> 00:31:40.628
We want to be healthy.
00:31:40.630 --> 00:31:42.848
We do both of those things, right.
00:31:42.849 --> 00:31:46.898
And we have examples of churches that do both.
00:31:46.900 --> 00:31:53.288
And our movement is a movement that does both. And I would just-- yeah, I would just challenge the mindset of all of us.
00:31:53.289 --> 00:31:58.239
I think we all get caught up into kind of where our default bias would lead us to.
00:31:58.240 --> 00:32:05.888
And I think it's just, you know what? Let's be okay with doing both of those and just celebrating and cheering on both of those, right?
00:32:05.890 --> 00:32:08.078
Yeah, 100%.
00:32:08.079 --> 00:32:09.038
Jeremiah, what do you think?
00:32:09.039 --> 00:32:19.028
What can we what are some practical things leaders can do out there to just kind of break down this mindset of either-or thinking and adopt a more both-and mindset.
00:32:19.029 --> 00:32:21.818
Community, exactly what was mentioned.
00:32:21.819 --> 00:32:23.558
You know, we are a family.
00:32:23.559 --> 00:32:24.519
We work together.
00:32:24.519 --> 00:32:29.949
We we are -- We have one mission, and that is to go and make disciples who make disciples.
00:32:29.950 --> 00:32:35.888
So whether you're taking on an existing church or planting a new church, you should be of the same mind.
00:32:35.890 --> 00:32:43.239
Church planters, multipliers, please keep doing what you're doing and celebrate when you're seeing new people come to Christ.
00:32:43.240 --> 00:32:53.318
When you're seeing -- Because you're speaking life into existing churches that haven't seen that for five, ten, 15 years and you're telling them, hey, it's possible.
00:32:53.319 --> 00:32:57.338
Don't just silo. Don't silo. Everybody work together.
00:32:57.339 --> 00:33:05.199
I don't like when I see some newer churches kind of treat the older churches like, Well, that's a has been.
00:33:05.200 --> 00:33:07.479
Please come back.
00:33:08.769 --> 00:33:09.878
Help.
00:33:09.880 --> 00:33:10.880
Exactly, help. Come back and help.
00:33:11.920 --> 00:33:13.479
Lean in.
00:33:13.480 --> 00:33:15.048
Don't just dismiss.
00:33:15.049 --> 00:33:20.409
And older churches shouldn't be getting defensive.
00:33:20.410 --> 00:33:21.459
I hear this all the time.
00:33:21.460 --> 00:33:22.719
Why do we need more churches?
00:33:22.720 --> 00:33:35.288
Let me tell you something, in Canada, if you filled up all the churches in every city, you still wouldn't have enough room for the people in the city, in the area, to come to Christ.
00:33:35.289 --> 00:33:37.719
So please don't limit.
00:33:37.720 --> 00:33:40.989
So I just think, I think the mission is clear.
00:33:40.990 --> 00:33:46.058
I don't care what your church looks like. Micro church, Mega church, home church.
00:33:46.059 --> 00:33:47.229
The mission is clear.
00:33:47.230 --> 00:33:52.388
Go and make disciples who make disciples. And if you're not doing that, you're plateaued.
00:33:52.390 --> 00:33:54.939
You're not doing that, you've mission drifted.
00:33:54.940 --> 00:34:01.959
So please keep a record of who's coming to Christ, you know, who's getting baptized, and then face those facts.
00:34:01.960 --> 00:34:07.239
If it's not happening, make the adjustments so that it happens.
00:34:07.240 --> 00:34:14.858
If people aren't becoming disciples and they're just staying as babies who are believers who act like babies, make the adjustments.
00:34:14.860 --> 00:34:24.878
Any church can do this, whether they're three months old or 100 years old, but you have to have a commitment to obedience and a commitment to the mission.
00:34:24.880 --> 00:34:38.987
Celebrating the win is so important, I think, because, when we see ourselves like--talking about the body of Christ, and you know just how we all work together --when one wins, we actually all win.
00:34:38.989 --> 00:34:45.648
Because we're all -- like, we're talking in our --we're launching a Multiple Network initiative 'Every Church a Multiplying Church'.
00:34:45.650 --> 00:34:46.608
And there's two ways.
00:34:46.610 --> 00:34:49.818
Some are going to plant, but everyone can partner.
00:34:49.820 --> 00:34:52.099
Because we're all in this together.
00:34:52.099 --> 00:34:53.838
There's no us and them.
00:34:53.840 --> 00:34:56.898
It's just we're all in it together.
00:34:56.900 --> 00:34:58.224
Getting back to the farming analogy.
00:34:58.226 --> 00:35:05.659
I heard this story. My grandpa had gotten sick. He was a farmer.
00:35:05.659 --> 00:35:14.909
And some neighbors in the farming community heard that he was sick and they stopped harvesting their crops.
00:35:15.800 --> 00:35:25.548
And made sure all of my grandpa's crops were in the storehouse before they even started on theirs.
00:35:25.550 --> 00:35:32.329
And this would be like-- When I heard that story, I'm just like, that's what church should be.
00:35:32.329 --> 00:35:37.806
If there's one church that's struggling, there should be other churches that come in and go, hey, we're here to help.
00:35:37.807 --> 00:35:42.108
And then celebrate each other's wins.
00:35:42.110 --> 00:35:42.498
Yes.
00:35:42.500 --> 00:35:43.818
Not be competitive.
00:35:43.820 --> 00:35:44.989
I don't like that.
00:35:44.989 --> 00:35:46.639
Jeremiah, you were on fire there.
00:35:46.639 --> 00:35:49.789
Like we can't be competitive.
00:35:49.789 --> 00:35:57.244
We're all in this together, and we have to see that one church winning means that we're all winning with them, and they're with us.
00:35:57.244 --> 00:36:01.789
And we're not doing well, then they feel the pain, too.
00:36:01.789 --> 00:36:06.378
Instead of these silos that just--- No, no, no, that's that's got to go.
00:36:06.380 --> 00:36:10.369
This both-and thinking really has to come to the forefront.
00:36:10.369 --> 00:36:12.498
Jeremiah, did you have something else to add?
00:36:12.500 --> 00:36:22.818
My 25 person church in downtown Edmonton here just recently participated in a plan to have a church in Calgary, and that to me should tell
00:36:22.820 --> 00:36:29.929
Don't wait. Like just get involved somehow in multiplication.
00:36:29.929 --> 00:36:39.829
Find a way to invest in somebody who's got a vision and a dream to reach lost people in a different locale and get behind it.
00:36:39.829 --> 00:36:44.059
We didn't spend big, big money. We did some consultation.
00:36:44.059 --> 00:36:47.568
We supported in different ways financially, in prayer.
00:36:47.570 --> 00:36:49.548
But that's a part of us now.
00:36:49.550 --> 00:36:56.389
And we celebrate that church and our people are like looking around at the 25 of us going, well, why?
00:36:56.389 --> 00:36:58.759
Why would we plant a church in Calgary?
00:36:58.760 --> 00:37:02.329
And my answer to that is why not? Why not?
00:37:02.329 --> 00:37:03.528
Yeah, why not?
00:37:03.530 --> 00:37:05.329
We can all partner.
00:37:05.329 --> 00:37:07.219
Every single one of us can partner.
00:37:07.219 --> 00:37:08.389
Love that.
00:37:08.389 --> 00:37:13.699
And I know your church and I know the church you're talking about, and it's absolutely brilliant.
00:37:13.699 --> 00:37:14.809
Wow.
00:37:14.809 --> 00:37:16.398
That's so cool.
00:37:16.400 --> 00:37:20.599
Because even a partnership in a small way is saying, we're behind you.
00:37:20.599 --> 00:37:22.489
We're going to win together.
00:37:22.489 --> 00:37:23.688
I love that.
00:37:23.690 --> 00:37:27.559
Michael, do you have any closing thoughts before we sign off today?
00:37:27.559 --> 00:37:31.369
Yeah. Well, just summarizing what you two were just talking about.
00:37:31.369 --> 00:37:39.679
At the end of the day, it's not about, Oh, is it a new church? Is it a revitalized church? Honestly, like, who cares what the label.
00:37:39.679 --> 00:37:41.239
Is it making disciples?
00:37:41.239 --> 00:37:43.938
Is the kingdom moving forward?
00:37:43.940 --> 00:37:44.922
Then do it, you know.
00:37:44.922 --> 00:37:50.179
And guess what, that means taking new ground with, you know, the blank page.
00:37:50.179 --> 00:37:51.168
A community without a church.
00:37:51.170 --> 00:37:52.009
It means that.
00:37:52.010 --> 00:37:55.068
But it also means, hey, this church probably isn't the healthiest.
00:37:55.070 --> 00:37:57.048
Let's make sure we can get it healthy. It's both.
00:37:57.050 --> 00:37:58.938
It's both of those things together.
00:37:58.940 --> 00:38:03.750
And if we can live with that mindset, our fellowship has a beautiful future.
00:38:04.980 --> 00:38:06.128
I agree.
00:38:06.130 --> 00:38:08.579
Jeremiah, you guys have created a ton of resources.
00:38:08.579 --> 00:38:09.539
Where can we find them?
00:38:09.539 --> 00:38:11.369
How can we get access to them?
00:38:11.369 --> 00:38:16.449
ChurchVitalization.ca is kind of our hub for all things church vitalization.
00:38:16.619 --> 00:38:27.275
We also have a vitalization course on Thinkific. So if you just go ABNWTThinkific you'll find a free course there.
00:38:27.275 --> 00:38:28.918
Everything's free.
00:38:28.920 --> 00:38:36.909
We want to assist and help. And all of our articles and blogs on reaching lost people and training is all found on ABNWT.com.
00:38:39.090 --> 00:38:45.059
Yeah. And just because you're a church plant doesn't mean you can't take advantage of those great resources there.
00:38:45.059 --> 00:38:52.349
Like it's -- there's a lot of things that are going to help you grow your church and see people get saved.
00:38:52.349 --> 00:38:57.119
We have a website as well, PAOCMultiply.com. Lots of resources there.
00:38:58.739 --> 00:38:59.739
EveryChurch.ca.
00:39:01.260 --> 00:39:06.449
We're putting some new resources on that landing page as well.
00:39:06.449 --> 00:39:09.478
So we want to help you however we can.
00:39:09.480 --> 00:39:17.548
Thanks, Jeremiah, for jumping on today, Michael, for co-hosting as well. And just, thanks for your time, effort and thoughts.
00:39:17.550 --> 00:39:21.059
And, we're excited about great days ahead in Canada.
00:39:21.059 --> 00:39:22.679
Thanks, guys, for jumping on today.
00:39:22.679 --> 00:39:23.398
See ya.
00:39:23.400 --> 00:39:24.838
Thank you, Paul, for all you do.
00:39:24.840 --> 00:39:25.840
Thank you.
00:39:26.760 --> 00:39:28.018
Well, thanks for listening today.
00:39:28.019 --> 00:39:30.539
We trust this conversation was encouraging.
00:39:30.539 --> 00:39:36.958
If you want more information on church multiplication resources, or if you think we can help you in your church multiplication journey,
00:39:37.942 --> 00:39:38.942
MultiplyNetwork@paoc.org.
00:39:41.820 --> 00:39:42.820
Until next time.
00:00:04.860 --> 00:00:14.128
Well, here we are on objection number three in our series of eight most common objections to church multiplication.
00:00:14.130 --> 00:00:19.018
And we're really excited to have my co-host again, Michael Bronson is joining.
00:00:19.019 --> 00:00:20.849
Michael, how are you today?
00:00:20.850 --> 00:00:24.969
Hey, Paul. Good to see/ hear you. It's always fun hanging out.
00:00:25.620 --> 00:00:27.599
It's good to see you too.
00:00:27.600 --> 00:00:42.118
I was thinking about, some things about my childhood recently, and one of the things I was thinking about, was this what I wanted to do when I grew up? And, I don't know, what did you want to do when you grew up?
00:00:42.119 --> 00:00:43.048
Do you remember that?
00:00:43.049 --> 00:00:44.308
Like, as a little kid?
00:00:44.310 --> 00:00:50.459
Oh, wow. Yeah, when I was a little kid. Like, are we talking really young? Like, this is-- Oh, I don't know.
00:00:50.460 --> 00:00:53.848
Mid--. Let's say mid- to upper- elementary.
00:00:53.850 --> 00:01:02.908
Okay. Well, the first thing I ever wanted to do when I first started school was I wanted to be a crossing guard because it had the word guard in it.
00:01:02.909 --> 00:01:13.138
And my plan was I was going to flip the stop sign upside down and use it as a sword, you know, keep people safe, you know? So that was that was my ambition as that my first career that I wanted.
00:01:13.140 --> 00:01:17.429
So --- And I think they still -- I think they even pay for that.
00:01:17.430 --> 00:01:19.513
It's not a lot but they do pay for the crossing guards.
00:01:19.515 --> 00:01:20.515
Oh yeah.
00:01:21.808 --> 00:01:22.084
That's kinda nice.
00:01:22.085 --> 00:01:22.918
That's right.
00:01:22.920 --> 00:01:26.849
When I grew up, I had lots of different things, probably professional athlete.
00:01:26.849 --> 00:01:35.608
But I remember like when-- Do you remember that-- So this was like when I was an adult, when the, when the show Suits came out? Do you remember Suits?
00:01:35.609 --> 00:01:36.918
Oh yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:01:36.920 --> 00:01:38.899
Harvey Specter, he's a legend.
00:01:38.900 --> 00:01:40.168
Yeah yeah yeah. Okay. Yeah.
00:01:40.170 --> 00:01:46.618
So I was like, I, I didn't watch when it first came out. Binged it like nine seasons in about nine hours.
00:01:46.620 --> 00:01:49.588
Like, like I just did it as fast as I could.
00:01:49.590 --> 00:01:51.118
And then I realized, no, no, no.
00:01:51.120 --> 00:01:54.239
What my real calling in life was to be a lawyer.
00:01:54.239 --> 00:01:56.459
Because what I wanted to say
00:01:56.459 --> 00:01:59.379
"I object".
00:02:01.200 --> 00:02:10.739
Which kind of ---which leads us--- and great segue, Paul -- It leads us into the objection that we are talking about today.
00:02:10.740 --> 00:02:16.618
And, so if I happen to say "I object" during this podcast, you'll know why.
00:02:16.620 --> 00:02:19.229
Here's the objection we're talking about today, Michael.
00:02:19.229 --> 00:02:27.718
We should be investing into revitalizing churches instead of planting new ones.
00:02:27.719 --> 00:02:28.288
Okay.
00:02:28.288 --> 00:02:29.127
Yes, that's right.
00:02:29.128 --> 00:02:35.128
Why is -- This this is a common objection that I've heard a lot since I've been in this role.
00:02:35.129 --> 00:02:36.359
Why has it got legs?
00:02:36.360 --> 00:02:37.528
Why is this?
00:02:37.530 --> 00:02:38.968
There's some merit here.
00:02:38.969 --> 00:02:43.258
Yeah, well, first off, there's probably many lawyers that become lawyers to do that.
00:02:43.259 --> 00:02:45.301
And they never have the chance to say "I object" so --.
00:02:45.302 --> 00:02:54.088
I object! All the sympathy to all those lawyers that are never able to say that but -- And all they do is write letters and get paid very well.
00:02:54.090 --> 00:02:55.109
Yes that's right.
00:02:55.110 --> 00:02:56.429
Oh yes.
00:02:56.430 --> 00:03:00.028
Yeah, yeah. We're all, we're all jealous of the finances there.
00:03:00.030 --> 00:03:03.038
Yeah. That's -- it's -- That's a common objection right?
00:03:03.039 --> 00:03:04.039
To multiplication.
00:03:04.469 --> 00:03:14.308
Why should we be starting new churches when there's churches that aren't growing and they're maybe plateaued or possibly even shrinking.
00:03:14.310 --> 00:03:17.878
So obviously we should be putting our effort into that.
00:03:17.879 --> 00:03:29.609
And I think, I think probably every single one of us knows some leaders that are leading really healthy churches that are really growing. And we probably all know leaders that are in churches that are the complete opposite of that.
00:03:29.610 --> 00:03:32.549
So at first glance, it makes sense.
00:03:32.550 --> 00:03:35.368
And can I tell you an analogy that I thought of Paul?
00:03:35.370 --> 00:03:36.299
I think this --.
00:03:36.300 --> 00:03:36.312
Yeah, go ahead.
00:03:36.313 --> 00:03:37.481
I think this works well with this.
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Because, I understand where people are coming from. And, you know, here on this podcast, we want to make sure we're still manning some arguments.
00:03:45.810 --> 00:03:49.718
We're not just giving the fluff and, you know, trying to dismantle the fluff. No, no, no. Like this.
00:03:49.719 --> 00:03:51.028
It's a legit argument.
00:03:51.030 --> 00:04:06.449
And it's almost like, imagine having a farmer who who has a field and the farmer's trying to bring in a harvest from that field. Imagine, this farmer is not bringing a return. Like, the field is just not working. There's no harvest.
00:04:06.449 --> 00:04:13.378
Why on earth would that farmer then go and buy another second field and try doing it again when the first one isn't working at all?
00:04:13.379 --> 00:04:22.559
And I feel like that's kind of the perspective that a lot of us have when we think about this argument. And it's true, if you think of it from that viewpoint.
00:04:22.560 --> 00:04:26.639
But much like the previous podcast, we're going to take a step back.
00:04:26.639 --> 00:04:33.809
And what we want to do is we want to look at that objection from a different angle and a different viewpoint. Because it doesn't have to be from that perspective.
00:04:33.810 --> 00:04:36.389
So I'm excited to talk about that today.
00:04:36.389 --> 00:04:45.430
This is perfect because we have got a guest that's going to help us think this through. His name is Jeremiah Raible.
00:04:45.600 --> 00:04:54.538
He's the Vitalization Coach or one of the visualization coaches in the Alberta Northwest Territories District of the Pentecostal Assemblies of Canada.
00:04:54.540 --> 00:04:57.598
He is a future thinker.
00:04:57.600 --> 00:05:00.309
He's great at all things tech.
00:05:00.310 --> 00:05:04.478
He was a polka band drummer once and he's super fun to be around.
00:05:04.480 --> 00:05:07.298
Jeremiah Raible, welcome to the podcast.
00:05:07.300 --> 00:05:09.939
Hey, thanks so much for having me, Paul.
00:05:09.939 --> 00:05:12.879
That was one of the best stories ever. That polka bad story.
00:05:12.879 --> 00:05:14.108
Perhaps another time.
00:05:14.110 --> 00:05:26.350
But, when when we think about this, objection to church multiplication, obviously, you're involved with visualization, working with all kinds of churches.
00:05:27.399 --> 00:05:33.129
When I say we should be investing into revitalizing churches instead of planting new ones, this is your world.
00:05:33.129 --> 00:05:35.559
Why does this carry some merit?
00:05:35.560 --> 00:05:39.819
Well, I think about the same objection I heard when I worked in international missions.
00:05:39.819 --> 00:05:44.439
Why are we sending people overseas when we need to send people here?
00:05:44.439 --> 00:05:48.428
And it's this either/or mentality.
00:05:48.430 --> 00:05:52.478
I don't -- I'm not quite, I don't quite understand where that comes from.
00:05:52.480 --> 00:06:01.069
And I think the reason why it has legs, though, is because there-- Seven out of ten existing churches are in decline, in plateau.
00:06:01.689 --> 00:06:09.399
You know, in 2019, the CBC reported that 10,000 churches will close in ten years.
00:06:09.399 --> 00:06:10.759
And that was before Covid.
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I think that's expedited.
00:06:13.180 --> 00:06:18.459
So there is you know, churches are closing. They're losing their land.
00:06:18.459 --> 00:06:28.730
I mean, this is land you'll never get back, zoning you'll never get back. So there is quite -- Yeah, there's quite a need here in Canada.
00:06:29.649 --> 00:06:32.889
For the last four decades, the church has been on the decline.
00:06:32.889 --> 00:06:45.369
And I think some of that has just-- What's happening with our existing churches, and when they see these new churches pop up or, in some cases, you go to one church and there's three other churches renting in one church.
00:06:45.370 --> 00:06:57.338
And it's just saying, okay, well, what's happening with the Canadian church? And again, I think the heart of it is we want to see more people come to Christ in Canada. We want to reverse the trend from decline to growth.
00:06:59.199 --> 00:07:05.259
But I don't know if that's the only way is simply to revitalize only.
00:07:05.259 --> 00:07:19.658
But I do think that that's coming out of a heart of looking at the current trajectory of the Canadian church and say, well, boy, something has to be done and is the only thing that we can do to close the existing church and plant new ones.
00:07:19.660 --> 00:07:22.038
Now, I'm not sure if that's the answer either.
00:07:22.040 --> 00:07:23.228
Right.
00:07:23.230 --> 00:07:32.629
And I do think that, for me, this objection-- I find myself agreeing with because I think healthy churches do multiply.
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Like at least they have the opportunity. It's embedded -- like the kingdom of God, multiplication, is embedded into the church that Jesus is building.
00:07:43.449 --> 00:07:58.538
But if it's not healthy -- You know, you reproduce often what you are. And so it makes sense to just say, hey, stop planting, stop planting, because we've got gotta, you know, we've got to make sure that our churches are vitalized.
00:07:59.589 --> 00:08:09.189
And there's a lot of truth in that. But it's a both/and conversation. It's like saying to someone, okay, everybody stay in grade seven until we all get to grade seven.
00:08:09.189 --> 00:08:14.139
There's some churches in -- like there's some churches that are ready to start multiplying.
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There's some churches that are healthy, growing, got good disciple making culture.
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They're ready to go.
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They're ready to launch.
00:08:21.370 --> 00:08:34.149
So for me, I think what we're going to center in on today is I think we're going to nod our heads and say, this is actually a legit point, except it's either/or thinking.
00:08:34.149 --> 00:08:37.839
And what we really need is both/and thinking.
00:08:37.840 --> 00:08:40.389
And I think that's where we're going to land today.
00:08:40.389 --> 00:08:43.899
Is there any other -- Michael, do you have any other things you want to add before we move on?
00:08:45.120 --> 00:08:47.519
Yeah. Well, Jeremiah, what was that stat you just said?
00:08:47.519 --> 00:08:49.879
It was seven out of ten churches?
00:08:49.880 --> 00:08:52.828
Seven out of ten churches are plateaued or declining.
00:08:52.830 --> 00:08:53.818
Yeah. Wow.
00:08:53.820 --> 00:08:56.793
And is that is that all Canadian churches or with PAOC specifically?
00:08:58.320 --> 00:09:03.928
Yeah, I mean 80% -- The general stat is 80% of Canadian churches are in plateau and decline.
00:09:05.370 --> 00:09:06.509
Wow.
00:09:06.509 --> 00:09:10.048
That's, that's-- Okay, so we got to do something about this.
00:09:10.049 --> 00:09:11.049
Okay. There you go.
00:09:12.153 --> 00:09:18.479
How could anyone say that vitalization -- Like, it like revitalization-- Like, we need it if we're sitting at 30%.
00:09:18.480 --> 00:09:44.769
And I think this was an Ed Stetzer stat, it was something like 85% of churches aren't -- No, 80% of churches, like you said, of that plateaued or declining, 15% are growing by-- Transfer. You're looking for the word transfer-- Transfer growth, thank you.
00:09:44.769 --> 00:09:50.678
And then there's only 3 to 5% that are growing through new conversions.
00:09:50.679 --> 00:10:11.168
Can we talk about that for a second too? Yeah. Because we all know that transfer growth is way, way easier than new conversion growth because, you know, if someone moves in from a different town or says, oh, I'm coming from this church and this sort of thing, what do they ask?
00:10:11.169 --> 00:10:13.298
Oh, so how do I start serving?
00:10:13.299 --> 00:10:16.719
And, oh, so how do you do your giving here?
00:10:16.720 --> 00:10:18.489
Oh, will you do it through tithely.
00:10:18.490 --> 00:10:20.019
Oh, you do it through e-transfer.
00:10:20.019 --> 00:10:21.249
Oh, you do it through cash.
00:10:21.250 --> 00:10:22.028
Perfect. All right.
00:10:22.029 --> 00:10:22.869
I'll set that up.
00:10:22.870 --> 00:10:24.428
And we've all had those conversations.
00:10:24.429 --> 00:10:30.308
And trust me, those are beautiful conversations, those are great days for our budgets and this sort of thing.
00:10:30.309 --> 00:10:50.229
But we probably have all been in that scenario, too, where there's this new Christian that says, you know, for the first time of, oh, I'm supposed to give to this? You know, and it's just the process of discipleship is hard work, and it takes a long, long time.
00:10:50.230 --> 00:11:11.469
And, you know, I'm just thinking of people in our, in my church context where, you know, it's they're years in and finally, finally after, you know, attempted mentoring and reaching out and phone calls and coffees and just it's finally taking these simple steps of, you know, you take it for granted.
00:11:11.470 --> 00:11:20.089
So I see why transfer, you know, a big chunk of the growth in the church is just transfer growth. But I think you said it before, Paul.
00:11:20.090 --> 00:11:22.298
You were challenged me on this, and a group of planters.
00:11:22.299 --> 00:11:25.389
It's we cannot be just aiming for transfers.
00:11:25.389 --> 00:11:26.798
It must be new conversion.
00:11:26.799 --> 00:11:29.619
Like this, this is what God wants right? For the kingdom.
00:11:29.620 --> 00:11:35.828
And the reality is, though, I mean, the reality is any church that's growing will grow, 75% will be transfer growth.
00:11:35.830 --> 00:11:43.599
And that could also be people, especially in Canada, coming into the nation from other Christian, predominately Christian nations.
00:11:43.600 --> 00:11:47.619
They'll come in and they'll attend a church.
00:11:47.620 --> 00:11:52.808
So you want to aim, you aim for, you know, new convert growth.
00:11:52.809 --> 00:11:58.600
It's a challenge because, you're right, because there is a bit of that shifting sheep mentality.
00:11:59.740 --> 00:12:15.009
Certainly in, you know, let's say North American church - I can't speak for the rest of the world - but certainly there is that, Hey, not really, you know, not really jiving with this or it's not working for my kids. And all of a sudden, you know, you're gone to somewhere else.
00:12:15.009 --> 00:12:31.798
But but the focus that we try to build in - and, Jeremiah, this is not -- I mean, you can talk to this as well because we talk about vitalization processes -- The focus is reaching people far from God. It's no different than a church plant.
00:12:31.799 --> 00:12:32.788
Right?
00:12:32.789 --> 00:12:34.288
100%.
00:12:34.289 --> 00:12:41.188
Yeah. So everything about visualization is moving towards the same things that a church plant is going towards.
00:12:41.190 --> 00:12:46.828
You know, Jesus told us, I think I've talked about this before, just told us to expand the kingdom and make disciples.
00:12:46.830 --> 00:12:50.639
And Paul the Apostle said that we're going to do that through planting local churches.
00:12:50.639 --> 00:13:15.208
And every, every one of our churches that we have in Canada was a church plant at one point, but has lost its, you know - if you've lost your missional mojo and become plateaued or declining, sometimes you need help. And one of the stats that I found fascinating when we talked about visualization/multiplication - and I want to talk about one process thinking in a little bit.
00:13:15.210 --> 00:13:21.389
Because I think visualization multiplication should just be one process in the timeline.
00:13:21.389 --> 00:13:34.599
But one of the things that I think that was super interesting to me was that a church plant, after three to four years, their new conversion rate drops to a level of existing church.
00:13:34.600 --> 00:13:45.129
And what I think should happen, and I've advocated for this, is that a church plant at three, four or five years should actually do a revitalization process, built right in.
00:13:45.129 --> 00:13:46.328
Right.
00:13:46.330 --> 00:13:55.019
So that's why I think this, it's not, you know, two tracks side by side, or, you know, they're veering off.
00:13:55.020 --> 00:13:59.948
It's the same process, that every church should be a multiplying church.
00:13:59.950 --> 00:14:04.119
But in order to do that, you need to be healthy.
00:14:04.120 --> 00:14:09.908
So any thoughts on those things, specifically around one process thinking?
00:14:09.909 --> 00:14:11.438
Yeah. Gears working together.
00:14:11.440 --> 00:14:12.440
Right.
00:14:13.600 --> 00:14:15.428
Both sides working together.
00:14:15.429 --> 00:14:18.609
And the focus is always missional.
00:14:18.610 --> 00:14:20.798
We use the term re-envisioning.
00:14:20.799 --> 00:14:21.798
We use the term replanting.
00:14:21.799 --> 00:14:25.839
You know, so it's a lot of the same.
00:14:25.840 --> 00:14:33.969
It's the, you know, a church planter could be a replanter or a revitalizer. A person who's revitalized the church could plant.
00:14:33.970 --> 00:14:37.509
The characteristics of those leaders are catalytic.
00:14:37.509 --> 00:14:46.149
They're the same, kind of you have to be a catalytic, vision caster, managing change, all of those things, that have to happen.
00:14:46.149 --> 00:14:48.219
So it's very similar.
00:14:48.220 --> 00:15:06.469
Yeah. Michael, we've talked about this before of, you know, thinking like a church planter is actually a great way to think about visualization, because the things you need to think about in vitalization are the same things you need to think about as a church planter.
00:15:06.470 --> 00:15:07.788
I mean, you've done that.
00:15:07.789 --> 00:15:10.250
You've done the church planting thing. Any thoughts on that?
00:15:11.360 --> 00:15:12.828
Yeah. And that's the thing, right?
00:15:12.830 --> 00:15:25.339
Like, in some cases, one of the best ways to revitalize a church is, is to really sometimes what we actually need to do is just say, you know, we're going to actually push pause on this church for about six months.
00:15:25.340 --> 00:15:28.729
You know, the core who's a part of it, stay a part of it.
00:15:28.730 --> 00:15:30.379
Let's revision. Let's reimagine.
00:15:30.379 --> 00:15:35.719
And it's like what you said, Jeremiah, let's replant this and treat it like a church plant.
00:15:35.720 --> 00:15:40.519
You know, I can think of a couple examples where that's just what happened to a church.
00:15:40.519 --> 00:15:43.339
And, you know, it was kind of spinning some wheels.
00:15:43.340 --> 00:15:45.168
It just wasn't gaining traction.
00:15:45.169 --> 00:15:46.038
Let's try this idea.
00:15:46.039 --> 00:15:47.359
Let's try this idea.
00:15:47.360 --> 00:15:57.438
And what they needed to do, though, at the end of the day was, you know, let's just shut this down for a little bit and relaunch this. And I'm thinking of these examples and it's just, they're absolutely booming now.
00:15:57.440 --> 00:15:59.989
New disciples being made, people being baptized.
00:15:59.990 --> 00:16:06.739
And it's it's something that we -- Well, it's it's like what we said, right. It's not do we do this or do we do this.
00:16:06.740 --> 00:16:12.979
It's no, no, no. Let's do both of these. And sometimes it's merging them together and doing them at the same time. Right.
00:16:12.980 --> 00:16:18.019
A church will plateau when -- like, no church grows like this.
00:16:18.019 --> 00:16:19.399
A church always plateaus.
00:16:19.399 --> 00:16:33.469
And when it plateaus, what happens is the the activities that got them to that growth, they begin to double down on those activities, and then it begins to crust over and becomes the barrier for future growth.
00:16:33.470 --> 00:16:38.328
It doesn't matter if you're three years old or 20 or 100 years old. It's the same process.
00:16:38.330 --> 00:16:44.928
When you plateau, you actually, you keep reinforcing the things you did and it keeps you in plateau.
00:16:44.929 --> 00:16:51.139
Rather than re-imagining, re-envisioning and emerging to a new level of growth.
00:16:51.139 --> 00:16:54.288
And that's what happens in every church.
00:16:54.289 --> 00:16:55.129
Yeah.
00:16:55.129 --> 00:17:12.229
One of the things, Jeremiah, that - and this has happened to a couple different places I can think of Western Ontario district, in our movement - But in Alberta, where a larger, healthier church has taken on a replant, almost.
00:17:12.230 --> 00:17:14.719
Like what's working there?
00:17:14.720 --> 00:17:21.077
The church that needs to be replanted has to be humble enough to ask for help.
00:17:21.078 --> 00:17:22.628
That right across the board, hey?
00:17:24.950 --> 00:17:29.808
And when that happens, hopefully the church that comes in has a missional focus.
00:17:29.809 --> 00:17:36.439
And their focus isn't just to get bigger, but it's to multiply their ministries in that new locale.
00:17:36.440 --> 00:17:39.450
When that happens, it's amazing.
00:17:42.680 --> 00:17:46.459
We've certainly moved on to the dismantling of this objection.
00:17:46.460 --> 00:17:52.069
It didn't take us long because the reality is, is we actually agree with vitalization.
00:17:53.690 --> 00:18:01.278
If the word in -- The word is actually instead of, meaning that we pick one or the other.
00:18:01.279 --> 00:18:19.578
And Michael, you had a thought that I want to explore a little bit, because some people are actually--And Jeremiah, you'd know this and maybe you can give a comment as well-- that there are some leaders that are just geared better for visualization and others that are more, you know, focused on the multiplication side.
00:18:19.579 --> 00:18:22.729
There's just a different passion, maybe skill set.
00:18:22.730 --> 00:18:29.509
There's something that - maybe there's a more pastoral gifting versus an apostolic one, and they just seem to fit better.
00:18:29.509 --> 00:18:33.618
And so if we say you're either this or that, then what do we do with these leaders?
00:18:33.619 --> 00:18:36.410
They end up being on the outside looking in. Michael your thoughts?
00:18:37.789 --> 00:18:44.598
Yeah, I think it's important, especially with this conversation, to acknowledge God has wired us all differently.
00:18:44.599 --> 00:18:46.219
We're all unique people.
00:18:46.220 --> 00:18:50.509
Yeah. Like we said, different, different giftings, different perspectives on things.
00:18:50.509 --> 00:18:57.888
And it's really sad when someone's wired a certain way, and the church as a whole says, no, no, no, don't be like that.
00:18:57.890 --> 00:18:59.509
Be like this instead.
00:18:59.509 --> 00:19:08.375
And, you know, some people are just built, you know, they were just wired to be these fresh, blank page starters of - There's nothing there.
00:19:08.376 --> 00:19:11.118
I see what God could make this.
00:19:11.119 --> 00:19:12.828
And boom, you make that happen.
00:19:12.829 --> 00:19:20.989
Some people are wired to say, I see something right now that maybe isn't fully what God wants it to be, but oh, I see the beauty and the potential in this.
00:19:20.990 --> 00:19:27.019
And neither are wrong to be that. It's, let's discern who God has called us to be.
00:19:27.019 --> 00:19:40.140
And let's just -- Now, listen, sometimes we need to watch ourselves because sometimes it can be out of arrogance, of some people want to be, well, I want the story on the website to be, oh yes, it was 2000 and whatever when my name started this church plant and blah, blah.
00:19:39.140 --> 00:19:45.439
Versus, you know, 50 years ago this person did and this person came revitalized it.
00:19:45.440 --> 00:19:52.068
You know, sometimes it doesn't look as flashy. So I think we need to be careful of that and be self aware.
00:19:52.069 --> 00:19:55.038
But we need to we need to let people be who they are.
00:19:55.039 --> 00:19:58.398
And Paul, I remember you telling me a story years ago.
00:19:58.400 --> 00:20:13.219
I forget we are on a call of some sort. And you were telling, I can't remember the the pastor's name, but there was this pastor in Ontario that was going along the coast of the Hudson's Bay to these little, you know, fishing villages or, or this sort of thing.
00:20:13.220 --> 00:20:26.598
And he saw that these little villages didn't have a church, so he would stay there for a couple of months or something along those lines, start this new church, set up a pastor, and then go on to the next village. And he would just go throughout the Hudson's Bay.
00:20:26.599 --> 00:20:31.909
And it's just this beautiful picture of pioneering and adventure of just, you know, there's just nothing there. It's a blank page.
00:20:31.910 --> 00:20:46.098
And they're going, can you imagine going to this planter and saying, hey, this is great that you're doing this, but there's churches down south below that aren't as healthy as they need to be. So you have to stop doing what you're doing and come here.
00:20:46.099 --> 00:21:06.469
Like, that would just - it would be totally the opposite of what we should be saying. We need to be taking this person who's walking in their calling, walking in their gifting and say, run with this. So does that mean, though, that the churches down in the Toronto area at that time who maybe weren't the healthiest, does that mean they shouldn't revitalize, though, and get healthy? Absolutely not.
00:21:06.470 --> 00:21:12.348
Both of these are so, so important to do at the same time. At the same time, right?
00:21:12.349 --> 00:21:21.318
Yeah. We've seen pastors who who had led their church down, you know, who had into plateau, who have actually turned the church around.
00:21:21.319 --> 00:21:27.858
And that's an interesting thing, where they've learned new skills and they've taken on risk and they've stepped out in new things.
00:21:27.859 --> 00:21:35.689
And I, I think I want to acknowledge that reality is that there are pastors that, maybe think that's not their gift, but it actually is.
00:21:35.690 --> 00:21:39.439
80% of pastors can lead this with help.
00:21:39.440 --> 00:21:52.669
We've seen pastors in our province revitalize one church, and then after four years, leave that church and go to a church that's lower and plateaued and take on the same task.
00:21:52.670 --> 00:22:13.219
So it's an amazing thing when you see leaders step into those callings and giftings and even churches that are now growing, now these pastors are finding themselves - they've never planted before - now they're finding themselves having to think about, okay, I want to plant a church over here. We gotta get a campus over here. I got to raise up leaders.
00:22:13.220 --> 00:22:14.538
So the gift mix.
00:22:14.539 --> 00:22:16.969
The gift mix is incredible.
00:22:16.970 --> 00:22:19.939
But you do have - you can't just stay where you are.
00:22:19.940 --> 00:22:21.169
You cannot stay here.
00:22:21.170 --> 00:22:23.298
You've gotta move forward.
00:22:23.299 --> 00:22:24.318
Yeah.
00:22:24.319 --> 00:22:35.298
And and also, we believe just that with humility and, you know, walking in, you know, God's grace.
00:22:35.299 --> 00:22:42.048
Well, a lot of these leaders can turn things around and can plant churches. People think, well, I could never plant a church.
00:22:42.049 --> 00:22:44.209
Yeah, but you have the Holy Spirit.
00:22:44.210 --> 00:22:45.288
You've got God helping you.
00:22:45.289 --> 00:22:49.219
You've got people that will champion you. I can't revitalize a church.
00:22:49.220 --> 00:22:50.328
Yes you can.
00:22:50.329 --> 00:22:52.459
Holy spirit can help you.
00:22:52.460 --> 00:23:00.279
And so, you know, we we have to remind ourselves that we don't have these limiting thoughts around either of these things.
00:23:00.280 --> 00:23:06.709
Like, well, that's only for so-and-so or that's only -- For us to just say, God, what do you want to do?
00:23:06.710 --> 00:23:14.118
And I'm going to lean into your strength and your power and your wisdom to do it, because I can't do it on my own strength.
00:23:14.119 --> 00:23:21.348
There isn't a pastor out there that can vitalize a church on his own strength. There isn't a pastor out there that can plant a church on his own strength.
00:23:21.349 --> 00:23:31.969
It has to be that deep reliance on the moving of God's Spirit in your life and using the gifts that God has given you for His - that He has gifted you with - for His glory.
00:23:31.970 --> 00:23:35.179
And so it's like reminding ourselves of the body of Christ.
00:23:35.180 --> 00:23:38.449
It's like, how can you just say, we're just going to vitalize churches, we're just going to plant.
00:23:38.450 --> 00:23:43.878
No, there's different gifts to the body. How can one hand to the foot and say, we don't need you?
00:23:43.880 --> 00:23:45.078
That is just not going to work.
00:23:45.079 --> 00:23:51.888
So, one of the things, Jeremiah, we always like to do is bring in the Bible to this conversation.
00:23:51.890 --> 00:23:58.308
Like, is this actually true? Is this something that -- And, Michael, you have some thoughts.
00:23:58.309 --> 00:23:59.118
I have some thoughts.
00:23:59.119 --> 00:24:01.278
And then Jeremiah, we'll lean over to you.
00:24:01.279 --> 00:24:03.359
Michael, what are your thoughts about this?
00:24:04.880 --> 00:24:09.599
You know, I guess I want to restate the counter statement,
00:24:10.519 --> 00:24:19.489
We should be revitalizing churches and planting new churches at the same time.
00:24:19.490 --> 00:24:24.739
Planting new churches does not mean abandoning of the existing churches.
00:24:24.740 --> 00:24:27.378
So is that in the Bible, Michael?
00:24:27.380 --> 00:24:30.439
Yes, it's definitely modeled in Scripture.
00:24:30.440 --> 00:24:37.489
And I just believe that men and women across the country can look at this example and say, you know what?
00:24:37.490 --> 00:24:48.348
If that's in Scripture, I can do that too. So in Acts chapter 16, there's Paul the Apostle and his crew that are traveling around, you know, and
00:24:48.349 --> 00:24:57.679
4 it says, "As they traveled from town to town, they delivered the decisions, reached by the apostles and elders in Jerusalem for the people to obey.
00:24:57.680 --> 00:25:12.108
So the churches were strengthened in their faith and grew daily number." So you have this picture of Paul and this group traveling around building up existing churches, churches that are already established, getting even healthier than they are.
00:25:12.109 --> 00:25:17.749
And then look what happens right after. This famous dream happens, right, where Paul is sleeping.
00:25:17.750 --> 00:25:35.118
And it says during the night, Paul had a vision of a man from Macedonia standing and begging, come over and help us. So you have-- And right before that happened, Paul and his group, they're encouraging established churches and just, you know, making them better and and building them up.
00:25:35.119 --> 00:25:42.888
And then right after, you have Paul and his group going and going and starting brand new works, works that haven't happened before.
00:25:42.890 --> 00:25:50.838
And I think this is -- I love how it's not -- We didn't have to pick and choose like, here's one story of Paul doing this and here's another story of Paul.
00:25:50.839 --> 00:25:52.308
It's within the same story.
00:25:52.309 --> 00:25:53.989
Paul is doing both of these things.
00:25:53.990 --> 00:25:57.499
And it didn't say Paul only planted churches because that's what matters.
00:25:57.500 --> 00:26:01.128
And it doesn't say Paul only encouraged established churches because that's what mattered.
00:26:01.130 --> 00:26:02.808
No, no, Paul was doing both.
00:26:02.809 --> 00:26:05.549
And this is the model that God gives us in Scripture.
00:26:07.289 --> 00:26:08.669
That's excellent. Michael.
00:26:08.670 --> 00:26:12.719
I was reading, just picking up on that, a blog by John Beeson,
00:26:12.720 --> 00:26:19.648
Churches, like people, are intended to be streams, not ponds; Highways, not cul de sacs.
00:26:19.650 --> 00:26:25.078
The book of Acts shows us a healthy church multiplying itself across the Roman Empire and beyond.
00:26:25.079 --> 00:26:26.368
Paul is a church planter.
00:26:26.369 --> 00:26:35.459
Paul's letters to Timothy and Titus are coaching documents -- so we talk about coaching all the time, Jeremiah, for these elder pastors.
00:26:35.460 --> 00:26:38.278
So Paul's taking care of the existing churches.
00:26:38.279 --> 00:26:41.999
He's making sure that they haven't lost their their true north.
00:26:43.440 --> 00:26:46.558
Many forget these letters weren't letters to a single church.
00:26:46.559 --> 00:26:51.269
Paul wrote to one city church, and he didn't write just to one.
00:26:51.269 --> 00:26:53.939
He wrote to a network of churches.
00:26:53.940 --> 00:27:05.128
And these churches were so connected that Paul could write one letter and they would be read by all of them. And as you look at some of the church planting journey, as he strengthened these churches, guess what they did?
00:27:05.130 --> 00:27:26.413
Jerusalem started churches in Samaria and Caesarea, who started grandaughter churches in Antioch, who birthed great granddaughter churches in Galatia and Ephesus, and then the Ephesians, then multiplied, great great granddaughter churches in the cities of Colosse, Hierpolis, and Laodicea.
00:27:28.140 --> 00:27:32.338
So there was a strengthening of the church for multiplication.
00:27:32.339 --> 00:27:35.098
Jeremiah, any thoughts around this?
00:27:35.099 --> 00:27:45.449
Thing that gets me when I go to Revelation, and I see the Lord of the church blowing out the candle of the churches, and I wonder, where are those churches in Revelation?
00:27:45.450 --> 00:27:46.469
Like, did they close?
00:27:48.299 --> 00:27:49.299
And why?
00:27:50.250 --> 00:27:52.828
Disobedience, disobedience.
00:27:52.829 --> 00:27:58.769
And I, again, I don't care if you're one year old or 100 years old as a church, you have got to be obedient.
00:27:58.769 --> 00:28:04.858
Jesus said that you will bear fruit, right? John 15 and what's the fruit?
00:28:04.859 --> 00:28:06.778
The fruit is kingdom expansion.
00:28:06.779 --> 00:28:10.469
Witness. People coming to Christ. People following Jesus.
00:28:10.470 --> 00:28:11.489
Jesus says, I came.
00:28:11.490 --> 00:28:21.509
Why? To seek and save those who were lost. If the church is not about Christ's business, He will not bless that church because that's not His church.
00:28:21.509 --> 00:28:26.759
So I think it's also a call to be obedient no matter what.
00:28:26.759 --> 00:28:30.179
Health is a choice, and it's a hard choice.
00:28:30.180 --> 00:28:35.038
When I want to lose weight, I have to forego that donut from Tim Hortons.
00:28:35.039 --> 00:28:37.108
That's a tough choice for me.
00:28:37.109 --> 00:28:50.759
Health is a choice, and a lot of pastors have to make, and churches have to make, tough choices to be healthy. To follow Christ, even when He leads into places that are scary, even when He leads places that are hard.
00:28:52.130 --> 00:29:09.148
One of the things that, I know that in the vitalization process, one of the very first things that you and others across our nation, in other districts, they walk the church through a time of repentance.
00:29:09.150 --> 00:29:12.388
For disobedience, for not expanding the kingdom.
00:29:12.390 --> 00:29:14.859
For not focusing on making disciples.
00:29:15.450 --> 00:29:19.318
There's a sense of acknowledgment that has to happen first.
00:29:19.319 --> 00:29:36.989
And I think what can happen too, even in church planting world, is there is that initial push for reaching people, reaching people. But once you start growing - Michael, you would know this - once you start growing and expanding and managing some of those things, it's like, I just want to manage the people I have.
00:29:36.990 --> 00:29:38.788
It's really hard to reach more.
00:29:38.789 --> 00:29:41.578
Why would I want to make more work for me?
00:29:41.579 --> 00:29:45.239
But there has to be this sense of because we're obedient.
00:29:45.240 --> 00:29:51.919
And if we're disobedient, well, what do we got to do? We have to confess and repent.
00:29:51.920 --> 00:29:54.048
There's no way around it.
00:29:54.049 --> 00:29:55.038
There's no way around it.
00:29:55.039 --> 00:29:55.848
Thanks for sharing that.
00:29:55.849 --> 00:30:00.469
Because that's really important. This is all about obedience in the end.
00:30:00.470 --> 00:30:03.259
What is Jesus asking us to do?
00:30:03.259 --> 00:30:05.358
So the counter statement is
00:30:05.359 --> 00:30:10.759
We should be revitalizing churches and planting new ones at the same time.
00:30:10.759 --> 00:30:16.308
Planting new churches does not mean abandoning of existing churches.
00:30:16.309 --> 00:30:23.598
So since we believe this is our counter statement, what are some next steps, some practical things that we could do?
00:30:23.599 --> 00:30:25.249
Michael, pass it over to you.
00:30:25.250 --> 00:30:27.169
What can we do here?
00:30:27.170 --> 00:30:28.640
If we believe this to be true?
00:30:29.740 --> 00:30:33.249
Yeah. It takes a different mindset. Right.
00:30:33.250 --> 00:30:34.578
We're not choosing planting.
00:30:34.579 --> 00:30:39.249
We're not saying we're going to only church plant. We're not saying we're going to only revitalize.
00:30:39.250 --> 00:30:47.108
We're going to do both of these things. And kind of tying back to that original analogy that I gave at the beginning of, you know, you have someone has a field.
00:30:47.109 --> 00:30:48.278
It's not bringing in a harvest.
00:30:48.279 --> 00:30:50.979
You definitely don't add a second field. That's true.
00:30:50.980 --> 00:30:54.308
But the good news is, it's not just one person with the field.
00:30:54.309 --> 00:31:02.409
It's an entire community of, you know, stick with the -- we're really going with the farming analogy here -- but it's a whole community of farmers.
00:31:02.410 --> 00:31:05.618
And if some aren't doing well, true, maybe they shouldn't add a second.
00:31:05.619 --> 00:31:16.749
But the truth is, some farmers have some fields that are bringing in a huge return, and those farmers need to keep buying and need to keep expanding and maybe can go and help build others.
00:31:16.750 --> 00:31:19.509
And, you know, it's this false dichotomy, right?
00:31:19.509 --> 00:31:21.278
Do we revitalize or do we plant?
00:31:21.279 --> 00:31:30.939
There's lots of things that are both-and, right. And, like, investing into your relationship with your child and also investing into your relationship with your spouse.
00:31:30.940 --> 00:31:33.278
Right. Both of those need to be invested into.
00:31:33.279 --> 00:31:34.388
You can't choose one.
00:31:34.390 --> 00:31:37.388
Or do we eat healthy or do we exercise?
00:31:37.390 --> 00:31:38.318
Which one do we do?
00:31:38.319 --> 00:31:39.338
Well, no.
00:31:39.339 --> 00:31:40.628
We want to be healthy.
00:31:40.630 --> 00:31:42.848
We do both of those things, right.
00:31:42.849 --> 00:31:46.898
And we have examples of churches that do both.
00:31:46.900 --> 00:31:53.288
And our movement is a movement that does both. And I would just-- yeah, I would just challenge the mindset of all of us.
00:31:53.289 --> 00:31:58.239
I think we all get caught up into kind of where our default bias would lead us to.
00:31:58.240 --> 00:32:05.888
And I think it's just, you know what? Let's be okay with doing both of those and just celebrating and cheering on both of those, right?
00:32:05.890 --> 00:32:08.078
Yeah, 100%.
00:32:08.079 --> 00:32:09.038
Jeremiah, what do you think?
00:32:09.039 --> 00:32:19.028
What can we what are some practical things leaders can do out there to just kind of break down this mindset of either-or thinking and adopt a more both-and mindset.
00:32:19.029 --> 00:32:21.818
Community, exactly what was mentioned.
00:32:21.819 --> 00:32:23.558
You know, we are a family.
00:32:23.559 --> 00:32:24.519
We work together.
00:32:24.519 --> 00:32:29.949
We we are -- We have one mission, and that is to go and make disciples who make disciples.
00:32:29.950 --> 00:32:35.888
So whether you're taking on an existing church or planting a new church, you should be of the same mind.
00:32:35.890 --> 00:32:43.239
Church planters, multipliers, please keep doing what you're doing and celebrate when you're seeing new people come to Christ.
00:32:43.240 --> 00:32:53.318
When you're seeing -- Because you're speaking life into existing churches that haven't seen that for five, ten, 15 years and you're telling them, hey, it's possible.
00:32:53.319 --> 00:32:57.338
Don't just silo. Don't silo. Everybody work together.
00:32:57.339 --> 00:33:05.199
I don't like when I see some newer churches kind of treat the older churches like, Well, that's a has been.
00:33:05.200 --> 00:33:07.479
Please come back.
00:33:08.769 --> 00:33:09.878
Help.
00:33:09.880 --> 00:33:10.880
Exactly, help. Come back and help.
00:33:11.920 --> 00:33:13.479
Lean in.
00:33:13.480 --> 00:33:15.048
Don't just dismiss.
00:33:15.049 --> 00:33:20.409
And older churches shouldn't be getting defensive.
00:33:20.410 --> 00:33:21.459
I hear this all the time.
00:33:21.460 --> 00:33:22.719
Why do we need more churches?
00:33:22.720 --> 00:33:35.288
Let me tell you something, in Canada, if you filled up all the churches in every city, you still wouldn't have enough room for the people in the city, in the area, to come to Christ.
00:33:35.289 --> 00:33:37.719
So please don't limit.
00:33:37.720 --> 00:33:40.989
So I just think, I think the mission is clear.
00:33:40.990 --> 00:33:46.058
I don't care what your church looks like. Micro church, Mega church, home church.
00:33:46.059 --> 00:33:47.229
The mission is clear.
00:33:47.230 --> 00:33:52.388
Go and make disciples who make disciples. And if you're not doing that, you're plateaued.
00:33:52.390 --> 00:33:54.939
You're not doing that, you've mission drifted.
00:33:54.940 --> 00:34:01.959
So please keep a record of who's coming to Christ, you know, who's getting baptized, and then face those facts.
00:34:01.960 --> 00:34:07.239
If it's not happening, make the adjustments so that it happens.
00:34:07.240 --> 00:34:14.858
If people aren't becoming disciples and they're just staying as babies who are believers who act like babies, make the adjustments.
00:34:14.860 --> 00:34:24.878
Any church can do this, whether they're three months old or 100 years old, but you have to have a commitment to obedience and a commitment to the mission.
00:34:24.880 --> 00:34:38.987
Celebrating the win is so important, I think, because, when we see ourselves like--talking about the body of Christ, and you know just how we all work together --when one wins, we actually all win.
00:34:38.989 --> 00:34:45.648
Because we're all -- like, we're talking in our --we're launching a Multiple Network initiative 'Every Church a Multiplying Church'.
00:34:45.650 --> 00:34:46.608
And there's two ways.
00:34:46.610 --> 00:34:49.818
Some are going to plant, but everyone can partner.
00:34:49.820 --> 00:34:52.099
Because we're all in this together.
00:34:52.099 --> 00:34:53.838
There's no us and them.
00:34:53.840 --> 00:34:56.898
It's just we're all in it together.
00:34:56.900 --> 00:34:58.224
Getting back to the farming analogy.
00:34:58.226 --> 00:35:05.659
I heard this story. My grandpa had gotten sick. He was a farmer.
00:35:05.659 --> 00:35:14.909
And some neighbors in the farming community heard that he was sick and they stopped harvesting their crops.
00:35:15.800 --> 00:35:25.548
And made sure all of my grandpa's crops were in the storehouse before they even started on theirs.
00:35:25.550 --> 00:35:32.329
And this would be like-- When I heard that story, I'm just like, that's what church should be.
00:35:32.329 --> 00:35:37.806
If there's one church that's struggling, there should be other churches that come in and go, hey, we're here to help.
00:35:37.807 --> 00:35:42.108
And then celebrate each other's wins.
00:35:42.110 --> 00:35:42.498
Yes.
00:35:42.500 --> 00:35:43.818
Not be competitive.
00:35:43.820 --> 00:35:44.989
I don't like that.
00:35:44.989 --> 00:35:46.639
Jeremiah, you were on fire there.
00:35:46.639 --> 00:35:49.789
Like we can't be competitive.
00:35:49.789 --> 00:35:57.244
We're all in this together, and we have to see that one church winning means that we're all winning with them, and they're with us.
00:35:57.244 --> 00:36:01.789
And we're not doing well, then they feel the pain, too.
00:36:01.789 --> 00:36:06.378
Instead of these silos that just--- No, no, no, that's that's got to go.
00:36:06.380 --> 00:36:10.369
This both-and thinking really has to come to the forefront.
00:36:10.369 --> 00:36:12.498
Jeremiah, did you have something else to add?
00:36:12.500 --> 00:36:22.818
My 25 person church in downtown Edmonton here just recently participated in a plan to have a church in Calgary, and that to me should tell
00:36:22.820 --> 00:36:29.929
Don't wait. Like just get involved somehow in multiplication.
00:36:29.929 --> 00:36:39.829
Find a way to invest in somebody who's got a vision and a dream to reach lost people in a different locale and get behind it.
00:36:39.829 --> 00:36:44.059
We didn't spend big, big money. We did some consultation.
00:36:44.059 --> 00:36:47.568
We supported in different ways financially, in prayer.
00:36:47.570 --> 00:36:49.548
But that's a part of us now.
00:36:49.550 --> 00:36:56.389
And we celebrate that church and our people are like looking around at the 25 of us going, well, why?
00:36:56.389 --> 00:36:58.759
Why would we plant a church in Calgary?
00:36:58.760 --> 00:37:02.329
And my answer to that is why not? Why not?
00:37:02.329 --> 00:37:03.528
Yeah, why not?
00:37:03.530 --> 00:37:05.329
We can all partner.
00:37:05.329 --> 00:37:07.219
Every single one of us can partner.
00:37:07.219 --> 00:37:08.389
Love that.
00:37:08.389 --> 00:37:13.699
And I know your church and I know the church you're talking about, and it's absolutely brilliant.
00:37:13.699 --> 00:37:14.809
Wow.
00:37:14.809 --> 00:37:16.398
That's so cool.
00:37:16.400 --> 00:37:20.599
Because even a partnership in a small way is saying, we're behind you.
00:37:20.599 --> 00:37:22.489
We're going to win together.
00:37:22.489 --> 00:37:23.688
I love that.
00:37:23.690 --> 00:37:27.559
Michael, do you have any closing thoughts before we sign off today?
00:37:27.559 --> 00:37:31.369
Yeah. Well, just summarizing what you two were just talking about.
00:37:31.369 --> 00:37:39.679
At the end of the day, it's not about, Oh, is it a new church? Is it a revitalized church? Honestly, like, who cares what the label.
00:37:39.679 --> 00:37:41.239
Is it making disciples?
00:37:41.239 --> 00:37:43.938
Is the kingdom moving forward?
00:37:43.940 --> 00:37:44.922
Then do it, you know.
00:37:44.922 --> 00:37:50.179
And guess what, that means taking new ground with, you know, the blank page.
00:37:50.179 --> 00:37:51.168
A community without a church.
00:37:51.170 --> 00:37:52.009
It means that.
00:37:52.010 --> 00:37:55.068
But it also means, hey, this church probably isn't the healthiest.
00:37:55.070 --> 00:37:57.048
Let's make sure we can get it healthy. It's both.
00:37:57.050 --> 00:37:58.938
It's both of those things together.
00:37:58.940 --> 00:38:03.750
And if we can live with that mindset, our fellowship has a beautiful future.
00:38:04.980 --> 00:38:06.128
I agree.
00:38:06.130 --> 00:38:08.579
Jeremiah, you guys have created a ton of resources.
00:38:08.579 --> 00:38:09.539
Where can we find them?
00:38:09.539 --> 00:38:11.369
How can we get access to them?
00:38:11.369 --> 00:38:16.449
ChurchVitalization.ca is kind of our hub for all things church vitalization.
00:38:16.619 --> 00:38:27.275
We also have a vitalization course on Thinkific. So if you just go ABNWTThinkific you'll find a free course there.
00:38:27.275 --> 00:38:28.918
Everything's free.
00:38:28.920 --> 00:38:36.909
We want to assist and help. And all of our articles and blogs on reaching lost people and training is all found on ABNWT.com.
00:38:39.090 --> 00:38:45.059
Yeah. And just because you're a church plant doesn't mean you can't take advantage of those great resources there.
00:38:45.059 --> 00:38:52.349
Like it's -- there's a lot of things that are going to help you grow your church and see people get saved.
00:38:52.349 --> 00:38:57.119
We have a website as well, PAOCMultiply.com. Lots of resources there.
00:38:58.739 --> 00:38:59.739
EveryChurch.ca.
00:39:01.260 --> 00:39:06.449
We're putting some new resources on that landing page as well.
00:39:06.449 --> 00:39:09.478
So we want to help you however we can.
00:39:09.480 --> 00:39:17.548
Thanks, Jeremiah, for jumping on today, Michael, for co-hosting as well. And just, thanks for your time, effort and thoughts.
00:39:17.550 --> 00:39:21.059
And, we're excited about great days ahead in Canada.
00:39:21.059 --> 00:39:22.679
Thanks, guys, for jumping on today.
00:39:22.679 --> 00:39:23.398
See ya.
00:39:23.400 --> 00:39:24.838
Thank you, Paul, for all you do.
00:39:24.840 --> 00:39:25.840
Thank you.
00:39:26.760 --> 00:39:28.018
Well, thanks for listening today.
00:39:28.019 --> 00:39:30.539
We trust this conversation was encouraging.
00:39:30.539 --> 00:39:36.958
If you want more information on church multiplication resources, or if you think we can help you in your church multiplication journey,
00:39:37.942 --> 00:39:38.942
MultiplyNetwork@paoc.org.
00:39:41.820 --> 00:39:42.820
Until next time.
