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(Intro music) Hi there. Welcome to the Multiply Network. So glad you've tuned in today. I know you're going to be encouraged and inspired as we talk about how do we, as churches and leaders, best support newcomers to Canada?
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I know you're going to learn a lot from this interview and it'll be coming up in just a few moments.
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But I wanted to remind you that we also have another resource, our PAOCMultiply.com website that has many, many videos on all kinds of topics that are resources for you as leaders, for you as churches.
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They're free to use and we'd love for you to take advantage of them.
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PAOCMultiply.com. We also have on that same website - if you're interested in planting a church - some easy first steps to get you on the church planting journey.
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We have a two minute quiz that you need to take that will help us help you get on the right path for church multiplication.
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So make sure you check out that website if you have a few moments and hopefully you'll find something that will encourage you and support you in all your leadership activities.
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All right. Our guest this time is Charles Hermelink.
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He works for PAOC in the Mission Canada Department.
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He's the Cultural Language Guiding Group leader.
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He helps oversee Neighbours and Newcomers Network.
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He's working with Mission Canada Workers as the Onboarding Coordinator and Development Specialist.
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And in this podcast, we talk about newcomers to Canada, how churches need to respond.
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He said that there's well over 450,000 newcomers to Canada, and they're not just landing in Vancouver, Toronto.
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They're finding their way to smaller centers, and many of them upwards of 30% are already coming Christian.
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And so they're showing up in our churches. So how do we best respond and how do we best support them? And we talk about one big
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to not be accidentally multicultural, but being intentionally intercultural.
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So we talk about cross-cultural intelligence and he lays out so many great resources.
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Get out your notepad because it's going to be a great interview and it's coming up right now.
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Hi Charles, welcome to the podcast.
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Hi, Paul. Thanks for asking me to come on.
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Oh, so great that you're able to take some time for us on a really important topic today.
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But before we get into that, which ties to the topic, tell us a little bit about your role in Mission Canada and some of the things you're responsible for and maybe how you can help churches.
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Yeah. About a year and a half ago came back to Mission Canada on a full time basis.
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My role is like many, is a bit of a hybrid of three primary things there.
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One is cultural language guiding group coordinator.
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So Mission Canada has guiding groups for all of our various priorities and those are made up of actually district and pastoral leaders, ministry leaders, from all across the country. So mine is cultural language groups. Kind of a subset of that is what we call Neighbours and Newcomers Network, which is really sort of the RAN division.
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It's not as aggressive, you know, as somebody who is placed in a restricted access country, but it is for workers, especially among Muslims, but can be among other cultural groups here in Canada that need a bit more of a protected status. Because being labeled a missionary on the PAOC website would be problematic for them.
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So there's that.
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And then there's I'm also the onboarding coordinator.
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And onboarding for us is a little bit different than most of HR.
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Usually onboarding is, hey, we're going to hire you and here's your training and orientation.
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So, like when I was a missionary and before we went overseas, and same with Mission Canada, somebody comes to us and they say, hey, I'm feeling call of God and I want to do this.
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And we affirm that.
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Well, there can be a process from months to a year and a half, where somebody is onboarding. It's all the prep prior to deployment, which includes their fundraising - Which relates to the third area, which is I'm the development specialist, so the fundraising trainer and coach, although I very much dislike the term fundraising because the emphasis is in the wrong place.
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Right? I prefer partnership development.
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There you go.
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Which is really what it is.
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Boy, that sounds like a big job.
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And of course, Mission Canada for PAOC has both the guiding group side but also the agency side.
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The guiding group works with, you know, partners right across Canada trying to figure things out and reaching the missional gaps in Canada and then the agencies actually sending the workers and getting them ready.
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And so that's, incase some of you were wondering what Mission Canada does for PAOC.
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Charles has got his fingerprints in everything. Sounds like.
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One of the things -- Not everything, thankfully.
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(Laughter) Yeah, that's true, not everything.
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One of the things that -- from our last podcast you remarked about newcomers to Canada and we're going to talk quite a bit about that and how churches can prepare, respond, be proactive.
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It's a wonderful opportunity that God is bringing the world to Canada.
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But why don't you tell us a little bit about some of the things before we get there, some of the things you're noticing about newcomers to Canada and and how that may or may not have an impact on churches?
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Yeah, like, you know, I think anybody who's been watching any, you know, national news, reading national news, following anything, you know, it pops up so often, you know, annually here.
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You know, we'll talk about Canada, you know, and Toronto and other major urban centers nationwide as being the most multicultural in the world.
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You know, we kind of know that.
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Here's what here's what you don't hear.
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Well, this last year, they will have talked about it was the were figure was roughly 450,000 newcomers.
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So almost a half a million.
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Actually, the rate is almost double that because they are not counting all of the categories.
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And I asked somebody why that was, and they said, because the government doesn't want us to know.
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They don't, because people are getting upset about it.
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Right? But the implications
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every locale, even out beyond suburbia, you know, into smaller burbs everywhere it is affected. We're growing in multicultural dynamics and that affects congregations both internally and externally.
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Internally, because Christians - it's still around 30 to 35% of all newcomers to Canada are Christians.
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And so they're landing in our churches and they're coming out of their Christian cultural context.
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And so that's affecting congregations internally.
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And then there's the external with, well, they're landing in our community and how are we as churches engaging them?
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And that's what we want to talk about today, because this is not a new reality.
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But I know for some rural centers, maybe some smaller cities, this is in their churches.
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This is really starting to show up.
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So I want you to talk with us a little bit today.
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And I know you're gonna talk a little bit about your background and somehow and then how that all plays into your current role.
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But you wrote in an email to me about being not accidentally multicultural but being intentionally intercultural.
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So talk to us about this cultural competence and how this all plays together.
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Because I think there's a lot of pastors out there scratching their heads going, How do we do this better?
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Charles has all the answers! I know they are too! Because they're calling me, they're emailing me, they're getting referred to me, you know, and to Mission Canada and saying, uh-oh, this is a new reality, you know, kind of to your last question.
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Post COVID, it's a fascinating period of time, because it's as if there was pent up demand.
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People couldn't go to church.
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People didn't want to go to church.
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People went online.
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They're searching. Well, that includes all the newcomers that are here and arriving or people that through the pandemic, this has stirred, this made them question.
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And so they're asking about, you know, the big questions of life.
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Right? And so they're online.
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Well, when we sort of reopened end of last year, this first early this year, you know, I have more churches contacting me saying, Wow, my congregation now is not the same as it was before.
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They're talking literally and figuratively. Literally, you know, lots of people changed.
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I have all these newcomers and newcomers who are newcomers to Canada as well.
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And so it's entirely changed the dynamic.
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I was at a section meeting a couple of weeks ago and this pastor who I've known for years, actually said to me, What do I do with these Christians who've shown up from these other countries? And they're making demands of me, you know.
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And he says, I wasn't trained for this, you know. So I feel that for pastors, you know, on that on that level. So, yeah, you asked me about my background and why it why is it I'm passionate about this? Probably because God called me. Yeah, this is why. Otherwise I'd be off doing something else. So I was trained mission in missions academically and practically outside of Canada. So my training was very, very oriented in sociology, anthropology, intercultural communication, contextualization, without syncretism, language and culture learning not as a monocultural pastor at all.
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Now, I've been a pastor, I've been a Staff Pastor and I've been a Lead Pastor. And I always feel that I wasn't trained for this, right?
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Kind of a little bit of that feeling, but trained for our multicultural world today.
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So like I said, I really feel for pastors who are thrown into this increasingly multicultural dynamics within their congregation and outside in their communities.
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And so I you know, I'm a I'm a resource guy. I'm always looking at what's available to help all of us.
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So I wanted to mention two of those really quick.
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One is a book- and really anything written by David Livermore on CQ, on Cultural Intelligence. You know, years ago we would hear about IQ and then we started hearing about EQ, with emotional intelligence.
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Now we're hearing about CQ, which is cultural intelligence.
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Really, it's about cross-cultural intelligence.
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Do I have enough breadth of mind and spirit to - and experience too - to communicate cross culturally with somebody and be understood and understand them well.
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So he's got a book from just a few years ago called The Cultural Intelligence Difference.
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Now, he's got lots of books, but there there is one that is really good.
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Now, Livermore is in the U.S.
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and he is writing - and it doesn't come out strongly, but Livermore is actually a christian.
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But he has gone into the very business world and that. But his stuff is thoroughly accessible and great for us.
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Another one which is really helpful to pastors - And I tell pastors this, I recommend this book to every pastor that I'm talking to, because I says it'll change your preaching.
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It'll change your communication within your community, your congregation and outside.
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It's called Effective Cross-Cultural Evangelism.
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By IVP, you know, InterVarsity and just a few, couple of years ago - by Bud Simon and Jay Moon - and they're giving us, like in one small volume, almost a missions degree.
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Because I know, like we're, as pastors, we don't have time to go back to get a degree.
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Right. I just need some things that are going to help me understand.
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And so most of us in our Canadian context are coming out of the truth and guilt cultural worldview.
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And so we tend to proclaim the gospel in a truth and guilt worldview.
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However, as our congregation and as our community outside the church is increasingly multicultural, our style of communicating the gospel is missing the mark.
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And it's like, why am I communicating and they're not responding? Well, the gospel - this is a beautiful thing - the gospel communicates in all of the worldviews existent in the world.
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It's just that we've been programed by our culture to see it and communicate in one way.
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So this book, they're going to help us understand, well, how do I speak to somebody who's coming out of a fear and power worldview, or how do I speak to somebody who's coming out of honor and shame?
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I love this.
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They talk about the emergent worldview today, which is millennials and younger.
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So this is our younger generations and it is a indifferent worldview.
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And also about issues - I and group, on group identity.
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I'm bonded to this group over this issue. And I want to be active in this particular area.
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So it makes me think of Greta Thunberg, who I just saw on the news last night, you know, some post about Greta Thunberg graduating from high school.
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You know, she's a great example of this, right?
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Of people who would be younger and indifferent to a spiritual worldview because it's not relevant to them. They don't perceive the world that way.
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Rather, they would say, why would I care about a spiritual worldview which may or may not exist when the world, to her, is burning, you know, and it's all going to fall right down around our ears.
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Now, whether you agree with her or not is indifferent.
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It's how do you communicate with people in that mental frame of reference.
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Right.
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So this is kind of where I'm coming from. These are resources that are that I try to create here.
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I'm all about the Church - big C, which boils down to means the local congregation, the local pastoral leadership team.
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Being healthy, being all that God is intended to be. And so I looked at a lot of, read totally into all the materials on, you know, church revitalization when I was at my church.
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Right. And, you know, I often heard the theme Healthy Things Grow, right?
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So you guys have probably talked a lot about that.
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Right? So, you know, here is to the question you asked specifically, are we growing unintentionally multicultural, which I give credit to David Wells for that. David Wells has probably been talking that for 20 years.
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Back when I was on staff at KRT, Kennedy Road Tabernacle in Brampton, you know, over 20 years ago, we saw that, we watched this happen in the almost ten years that I was there. We went from a median age, post 50, white congregation to a very multicultural.
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Now, I was recently back there this last year.
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Wow. It's just, you know, multiculturalism on steroids, right? But this is not the goal.
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This is -- multiculturalism is only a descriptive of the dynamic that is already, I see. I perceive.
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Rather are we aspiring to the always greater spiritual Spirit-led biblical goal of being intentionally intercultural?
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Now that's a different animal entirely.
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So yeah.
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So explain that, why that's maybe a better way to look at this.
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So the healthiest --- Here's my prime, the big idea as we would say did preaching, right, the prime premise here -- The healthiest and most growing churches are those who are intentionally engaging.
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They're reaching newcomers to Canada in their area.
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Hey, that's my central idea.
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What I want, if you takeaway anything else from this conversation, that's what I want people to take away.
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It is to my advantage for me, as a local church pastor, for my church to be healthy, my church to be growing, my church to have impact locally.
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Because it's relative to what's happening in the nation.
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And it's where the nation is going.
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Our rates of immigration just continue to increase.
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Ed Stetzer and Jerry Rankin wrote a book back in 2010 called Spiritual Warfare and Missions.
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they have discovered the key to spiritual vitality and local impact is a heart for God's kingdom work to the ends of the earth.
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Now, that's a fascinating quote to me, and we need to unpack a little bit right here.
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Jesus says - You know, we as Pentecostals love
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When the Spirit's power comes upon us, we will be his witnesses in Jerusalem.
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That's where we live, among people who are like us.
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And in all of Judea and Samaria.
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Now, that's in our region.
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But it's also the cultural difference among people, both like us and not like us. Samaritans are not like the Jews.
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And to the ends of the earth.
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So we as a Movement, we formed as a Movement because - and we've been sending missionaries for a hundred years right to the end of the earth.
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Our current challenge is not just with our Jerusalems and our Judaians, but we're really with our Samaritans, the people who are increasingly the ends of the earth who come and they moved into our neighborhoods and they live here among us, but they're not like us.
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Right? So this dynamic - reaching newcomers - I see is a key to revitalization and church growth.
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And I saw it.
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Right? So back to your question.
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How do we do this well as a local church? Well, a summary list really, really quick is ESL - English as a Second Language, light level, conversation circles.
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So I have never been trained in ESL, but I have started ESL at three different churches and maybe inspired more across the country as I talk about this.
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It's household setup and housing issues, jobs, job pre- and job hunting skills, you know, grocery shopping, navigating our medical system, our school system, even navigating government paperwork.
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There's an endless amount of ways in which we can engage and literally help people.
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But even more internally, we have to move beyond.
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Here would be a difference between unintentional multiculturalism or maybe first stages of intentional multiculturalism.
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We have to move beyond what might be perceived as - We could call it tokenism.
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Now, that's a little bit of a painful term, right?
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And assimilation. We don't want to be guilty of either of those.
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But sometimes if we're just like, wow, if I, you know, maybe we're thinking in the back of my head, if I have this person on the stage or on the board or in the staff or something, well now I'm having some visible diversity, right?
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And that's not bad, But that's not the end goal.
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That's only a step toward the goal.
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And so really, what we're talking about is an intentional integration.
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Cultural integration is not just assimilating them, not just having them visible minorities come in and be like us, but rather for them to come in and change us.
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And this is where it gets uncomfortable.
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That's a great point, though.
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Like that is a great point.
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We forget to position ourselves as learners here.
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If we're not learners, we're making mistakes.
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So we need to celebrate culture, Right?
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We're not celebrating just our culture, our Canadian culture.
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We're celebrating everyone's culture.
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Because all cultures come under the kingdom and under the gospel.
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All cultures need to change to become more like a heavenly culture. And so we want to integrate cultural forms into worship, cultural forms, into thought and processes, cross-cultural theological interpretations, not just our own. So we're changed in the process and we end up looking more like Revelation
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9 and we end up looking like what heaven is going to look at, right? Yeah.
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Now, here's the thing.
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I love this.
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The world stands up and take notice of us when we reach beyond ourselves and bless those in need outside our current congregation.
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So as William Temple said 150 years ago, the church exists primarily for the sake of those who are still outside of it.
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It is a mistake to suppose that God is only or even chiefly concerned with religion.
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And that's really the truth here.
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So preaching to the choir, perhaps for your listeners, Paul.
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You know, Matthew 5, you know - We're the light and we're the salt, right?
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In the same way, let your light shine before men that they may see your good deeds and glorify your father in heaven. That's got to be seen outside because otherwise they're not seeing what's happening inside the church. Ephesians 2, you know, we emphasize Ephesians
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8-9, but we forget verse ten, we are God's handiwork created in Christ years to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do. Right.
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First, Peter, Chapter 2.
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You know, I'm urging you on one hand, Holiness, to abstain from the desires of the flesh which wage war against your soul but - here - conduct yourselves in such a way to honor with such honor among the Gentiles that they would slander you as evil deals, that though they would slander you, they may see your good deeds and glorify your God on the day that He visits us.
00:23:33.309 --> 00:23:43.959
So the question really before us is, is our church being ignored by the world because we're only focused on the well-being of our own members?
00:23:43.960 --> 00:23:47.469
Or are we focused on internal issues only?
00:23:47.470 --> 00:23:56.679
Are we only intentionally ministering to those already ministered to and not those who are least reached and most vulnerable in our own neighborhoods?
00:23:56.680 --> 00:24:15.980
So are we simply reflecting the world around us with either convenient blindness to the needs of almost a million newcomers arriving annually and some literally who are almost starving on our campuses, international students and in our community.
00:24:16.869 --> 00:24:30.669
Literally. Or worse, are we reflecting the prejudicial attitudes of the world against newcomers to Canada, most of which there are not, they are lies, they're not truths that back up the prejudices that are there.
00:24:30.670 --> 00:24:43.778
So when I talk about these things, sometimes, you know, I'm almost on the edge of prophetic and really in the realm of apostolic, calling the church into the harvest fields that Jesus looked upon.
00:24:43.779 --> 00:24:45.159
Jesus wept over.
00:24:45.160 --> 00:24:53.409
Jesus commanded us to pray for, and then immediately sent his disciples into the very ripe harvest field.
00:24:53.410 --> 00:24:57.128
So Jesus says, as the Father sends me, so I'm sending you.
00:24:57.130 --> 00:25:04.607
Is there any other mistakes or landmines that we can watch out for to make sure that we're doing intentional intercultural well?
00:25:06.369 --> 00:25:12.909
Well those would be them - convenient blindness, comfortable mediocrity, reaching business as usual.
00:25:12.910 --> 00:25:16.659
And Jesus and the Spirit are calling us out of that apathy.
00:25:16.660 --> 00:25:25.509
So what should churches be doing and how can we ensure they're doing it well? You asked me that question, right?
00:25:25.509 --> 00:25:26.979
Well, I love this.
00:25:26.980 --> 00:25:33.098
I remember this right from one of the revitalization guys, and he was saying, Get up and do something.
00:25:33.099 --> 00:25:34.058
Anything.
00:25:34.059 --> 00:25:35.738
Stop thinking about it and do it.
00:25:35.739 --> 00:25:36.739
It is one.
00:25:37.960 --> 00:25:42.009
Rallying the troops, Share the vision, call them forward, equip them and release them.
00:25:42.009 --> 00:25:44.108
That's what we're here for as leaders, right?
00:25:44.109 --> 00:25:45.429
Go out and fail.
00:25:45.430 --> 00:25:48.289
Learn something, retool, try it again.
00:25:49.420 --> 00:25:56.378
At our PAOC staff chapel a couple of months ago, Tim Woodcock was asked to come and speak.
00:25:56.380 --> 00:25:57.699
Here's a Canadian.
00:25:57.700 --> 00:26:00.429
He's now a Glad Tidings in Burlington.
00:26:00.430 --> 00:26:05.949
And he was, for a couple of decades, in ministry in the United States.
00:26:05.950 --> 00:26:13.298
And he was asked as he's come back, you know what's the difference and lay the finger on the difference between Americans and Canadians.
00:26:13.299 --> 00:26:20.558
And I know that the comparison alone makes many Canadians start to bristle. You know, we got our back up over this.
00:26:20.559 --> 00:26:27.548
But we're just talking about cultural differences that we perceive. And I think this is valuable to us.
00:26:27.549 --> 00:26:31.568
One is Americans are not afraid to fail.
00:26:31.569 --> 00:26:38.108
Go out, do something, fail, learn, retool, do it again, you know, and try again.
00:26:38.109 --> 00:26:41.288
Canadians, we're afraid to offend.
00:26:42.640 --> 00:26:46.210
And that lends us toward are we afraid of failure?
00:26:47.289 --> 00:26:54.489
And so we don't put ourselves out there socially in a conversation or organizationally.
00:26:54.490 --> 00:26:55.568
So we don't.
00:26:55.569 --> 00:26:59.259
But we're right back to if there's no risk, there's no reward.
00:27:00.490 --> 00:27:15.338
And so the irony to me is that as Canadians, the Church, not the government, but the Church, we offend exactly because we're not doing enough to throw open our arms and our doors and our buildings and our bank accounts.
00:27:15.339 --> 00:27:21.818
And even more than that, Our time and our hearts to newcomers, right?
00:27:21.819 --> 00:27:33.269
So to ensure we're doing this, well, what do we do? We risk, we vision cast. We lead in new ways. Then our congregation is going to be healthy. They're going to be outwardly focused, grow.
00:27:33.269 --> 00:27:37.349
I saw this at my 100 year old church in Toronto.
00:27:39.029 --> 00:27:47.398
That only ESL was the only thing I found that actually brought newcomers in.
00:27:47.400 --> 00:27:54.538
We saw people transition from ESL classes in mid-week to church on Sunday.
00:27:54.539 --> 00:27:59.248
Just, it was a natural, wasn't even that intentional on our part you know they naturally. Salvations.
00:28:00.900 --> 00:28:05.878
Joy and excitement in the church growth, before Covid shut it all down.
00:28:05.880 --> 00:28:32.769
I know I got you connected with my friend just out east there and you're able to chat with him and he's, he's been, you know, saying to me, you know, this is one of the most fruitful things we do is ESL or a Bible study for those that have moved to his community that are just looking for relationship. Not Christians, but just looking for relationship, other people that they can share language with.
00:28:33.900 --> 00:28:34.888
It's a beautiful thing.
00:28:34.890 --> 00:28:44.549
And for us, I like how you said that, maybe we're offending culture more by not throwing open our arms and our wallets and our schedules and you know.
00:28:44.550 --> 00:28:47.788
That was a really, really great thought.
00:28:47.789 --> 00:28:59.739
We have -- I spend a lot of time with new church plants, you know, either pre-launch up to 3 to 5 years, somewhere in there.
00:28:59.740 --> 00:29:06.219
They're scrambling to find people on Sundays to help, small groups on Wednesdays. So when, you know, like they're the solo pastor.
00:29:06.220 --> 00:29:15.729
And so, you know, there's other solo pastors out there that don't have staff, don't have someone to oversee this, and they are already taxed.
00:29:15.730 --> 00:29:19.179
They don't have a lot of extra time or money.
00:29:19.180 --> 00:29:29.798
What are some what things that you could encourage them with that would just be like, yeah, here's something that you can do or here's some thoughts for you to consider.
00:29:29.799 --> 00:29:35.499
You're a solo pastor, rural church plant, maybe smaller city, whatever.
00:29:35.500 --> 00:29:39.578
What can they do that would produce some fruit?
00:29:39.579 --> 00:29:42.259
Help them move their church in the right direction?
00:29:42.259 --> 00:29:43.338
Yeah. Yeah.
00:29:43.339 --> 00:29:44.709
Great question.
00:29:44.710 --> 00:29:49.568
Really, what we're looking for -- we're not looking for pastors to lead ESL programs, right?
00:29:49.569 --> 00:29:54.068
We're looking for pastors to be instigators, right?
00:29:54.069 --> 00:29:55.269
To be catalysts.
00:29:55.269 --> 00:29:59.798
You know, and I'm not looking for pastors, you know, to do more.
00:29:59.799 --> 00:30:06.159
In fact, we did ours on Wednesday nights, and I ran the Wednesday night Bible study.
00:30:06.160 --> 00:30:11.618
And I you know, I had this core group. It would be anywhere from 6 to 15 people.
00:30:11.619 --> 00:30:17.000
And I actually said to them, I would rather you didn't come to my mid-week Bible study.
00:30:17.980 --> 00:30:24.189
I would rather you go volunteer in the ESL, which we started on the same night at the same time.
00:30:24.190 --> 00:30:28.028
And they ran - they had the big venue in the church building, you know, downstairs.
00:30:28.029 --> 00:30:30.788
And it was three times as big as my class.
00:30:30.789 --> 00:30:37.028
And I did. I had people leave and go do that. And that made me joyful as a pastor. So what's the point?
00:30:37.029 --> 00:30:42.969
You have resources in your church called your members, right?
00:30:42.970 --> 00:30:49.209
Who actually, many of them are passionate about this. They're experienced.
00:30:49.210 --> 00:30:57.909
So we've just launched this at my church that I've been going to for a year and a half to it now. And, you know, I say my church - I'm just a member.
00:30:57.910 --> 00:30:59.108
I'm not on staff.
00:30:59.109 --> 00:31:02.019
I don't have any official positions, none of those sort of things.
00:31:02.019 --> 00:31:05.618
I'm just a life group leader who is passionate about this area.
00:31:05.619 --> 00:31:11.769
We have more people who actually are already certified in ESL.
00:31:11.769 --> 00:31:20.739
I have a guy who's a certified translator, certified job coach for cross-cultural things, you know, and people have past experience.
00:31:20.740 --> 00:31:29.378
And then I have people coming out of the woodwork who are saying, well, these are my language backgrounds and I'm willing to help anybody who shows up.
00:31:29.380 --> 00:31:33.578
So we've got half a dozen languages skills all represented.
00:31:33.579 --> 00:31:35.229
You know, it's it's fabulous.
00:31:35.230 --> 00:31:36.969
And they're doing it.
00:31:36.970 --> 00:31:38.409
I'm just celebrating them.
00:31:38.410 --> 00:31:39.729
They're the ones running it.
00:31:39.730 --> 00:31:42.128
So here's a practical way.
00:31:42.130 --> 00:31:57.189
I love this. I noticed this on Sunday. So our church uses a little QR code on the back of the seat and they have it on the slides to sort of register because everything is digital and not analog and written, you know, nowadays.
00:31:57.190 --> 00:31:59.979
Well, they've changed that attendance form.
00:31:59.980 --> 00:32:07.449
It actually now asks everybody every Sunday, do you have other languages, Do you have other language skills?
00:32:07.450 --> 00:32:10.298
Would you like to be involved in this ministry?
00:32:10.299 --> 00:32:12.368
Yeah, they're actually serving every single week.
00:32:12.369 --> 00:32:13.369
It's a great idea. Great idea.
00:32:15.160 --> 00:32:18.308
They use Wufoo! I didn't even know what Wufoo was.
00:32:19.479 --> 00:32:21.380
(Laughter) Now you're aging yourself, Charles.
00:32:22.058 --> 00:32:30.038
And it populates this form and it downloads through a Google spreadsheet. We all access it, right? You know, and now I got them signed up to Meet Up.
00:32:30.039 --> 00:32:37.479
And so now we have people from Meet Up, which is an app and a website, so we're broadcasting it to our greater area.
00:32:37.480 --> 00:32:40.328
We have people driving from other cities, right?
00:32:40.329 --> 00:32:45.909
Are saying, I just want to come and connect with people and speak and talk. And fellowship.
00:32:45.910 --> 00:32:48.219
Because, you know, Paul, you touched on it a moment ago.
00:32:48.220 --> 00:32:51.818
A lot of newcomers are really lonely.
00:32:52.930 --> 00:32:54.057
They're isolated.
00:32:54.058 --> 00:32:54.608
Right?
00:32:54.609 --> 00:32:55.598
Totally.
00:32:55.599 --> 00:33:00.608
And, you know, it used to be said three months to six months to reach a newcomer.
00:33:00.609 --> 00:33:10.239
Now it's less than 90 days to reach a newcomer before they get integrated into their home cultural group here in Canada.
00:33:10.240 --> 00:33:23.769
Well, if you're talking about somebody who's from a different worldview, Muslim, Hindu, Sikh, Buddhist, you know, whatever, they can integrate into that community. We have lost our prime window for reaching them.
00:33:23.769 --> 00:33:28.670
Missions has come home to our local churches and we really are
00:33:29.769 --> 00:33:32.679
2 right now in our local church.
00:33:32.680 --> 00:33:41.048
The Spirit is given to us to be our witness to these people and to embrace them because the uttermost parts of the earth come home.
00:33:41.049 --> 00:33:43.058
So you asked about resources.
00:33:43.059 --> 00:33:46.808
So I have a vision and resource document that I'm always working on.
00:33:46.809 --> 00:33:48.249
It's a Kickstarter.
00:33:48.250 --> 00:33:49.358
It's going to get you going.
00:33:49.359 --> 00:33:53.469
It's called filoxenía, which is actually the Greek word for hospitality.
00:33:53.470 --> 00:33:59.388
I love it because it's this mash up of stranger and love.
00:33:59.390 --> 00:34:05.160
Love, you know, Philadelphia, you know, brotherly love, philos here.
00:34:05.269 --> 00:34:09.858
I'll provide that to you, Paul, and you can attach it or provide a link to it in your show notes.
00:34:11.210 --> 00:34:18.197
Because it then goes through - it's philosophy and vision - but it's also, the last several pages, are all resources.
00:34:18.199 --> 00:34:21.108
Here's how to think about your website.
00:34:21.110 --> 00:34:47.268
You know, one of the easiest things that are not going to cost the church anything to do is actually add -- it doesn't have to be visible-- add some languages in the the metadata of your website so that when somebody in Spanish, somebody in an in Tagalog or Urdu or Ukrainian is looking, your church now shows up in the web results because you've got that language on your website.
00:34:48.289 --> 00:34:48.748
Okay.
00:34:48.750 --> 00:34:55.518
You know easy, easy to do. It's got people on there who are doing fantastic things.
00:34:55.519 --> 00:35:01.219
It's got worship ideas, ministry ideas, ESL resource, all kinds of stuff.
00:35:01.219 --> 00:35:04.398
And then the other, like you say, is this is what I'm here for.
00:35:04.400 --> 00:35:10.009
We're here for to help churches, coach churches, act as a consultant.
00:35:10.010 --> 00:35:20.929
And that's - we would say because the life, the love of Christ compels us, is why Mission Canada's motto is because We Must.
00:35:20.929 --> 00:35:21.719
Yeah, we have to do it.
00:35:21.719 --> 00:35:23.838
The love of Christ is compelling us.
00:35:23.840 --> 00:35:24.798
So we must.
00:35:24.800 --> 00:35:25.309
Right?
00:35:25.309 --> 00:35:28.579
Well, Charles, this has been a rich time, man.
00:35:28.579 --> 00:35:31.869
Thanks for being a resource for me.
00:35:31.869 --> 00:35:37.548
Appreciated our conversations offline and how you've been a resource for church planters.
00:35:37.550 --> 00:35:39.708
I've directed you to a few.
00:35:39.710 --> 00:35:41.568
And love your servant heart.
00:35:41.570 --> 00:35:49.219
We'll attach that document in our show notes, as well as I'll put your contact information up there.
00:35:49.219 --> 00:35:50.659
What's the email again?
00:35:50.659 --> 00:35:52.579
Just in case people want to write it down now?
00:35:52.579 --> 00:35:55.969
Well, if you can spell it.
00:35:55.969 --> 00:35:56.969
Charles.Hermelink@paoc.org.
00:35:59.570 --> 00:36:01.938
Hermalink is not quite as bad as it first sounds.
00:36:01.940 --> 00:36:03.708
It's really just three little words.
00:36:03.710 --> 00:36:04.518
Her.
00:36:04.519 --> 00:36:05.478
Me.
00:36:05.480 --> 00:36:05.646
Link.
00:36:05.648 --> 00:36:06.648
Her. Me. Link.
00:36:08.269 --> 00:36:10.909
Her. Me. Link. That's my whole last name. Her. Me. Link.
00:36:11.885 --> 00:36:14.989
her, me, link! I know that's it.
00:36:16.074 --> 00:36:18.168
(Laughter) That's a senior pastor joke right there.
00:36:18.170 --> 00:36:21.588
You just cracked one open. I love it. Well, that's great.
00:36:21.590 --> 00:36:27.858
And I know that some people need -- We need to talk about this more because this isn't going away.
00:36:27.860 --> 00:36:58.190
And this is only going to be something that churches and leaders have to be intentional about. I was talking with a friend of mine who had, you know, gone to a retreat, sat down with the leadership team and said, Yeah, I thought we were doing good in this area until one of our board members who mentioned some things that just left him speechless, that that kind of stuff was still going on in his church.
00:36:59.539 --> 00:37:11.628
And so it's just like you have to be aware, you have to evaluate, you have to take time to think through things and you have to ask a ton of questions and be a learner.
00:37:11.630 --> 00:37:13.458
Well, yeah, we do.
00:37:13.460 --> 00:37:14.478
We do.
00:37:14.480 --> 00:37:33.438
Well, like I said, this is really, this is really important stuff we're talking about and what a wonderful opportunity that we have, that God has positioned Canada, and you as a leader and me as a leader, and our churches, in prime places to see the Kingdom of God advance here.
00:37:33.440 --> 00:37:36.438
So thank you for all your work, Charles. You're doing a great job.
00:37:36.440 --> 00:37:49.548
26 and 27 is one of the most fantastic missions verses relevant to us today. Because here's where we understand immigration.
00:37:49.550 --> 00:37:58.320
God is behind immigration so that they will perhaps seek him and find him, even though he is not very far from any one of them.
00:37:59.150 --> 00:38:00.827
Amen. Amen?
00:38:00.829 --> 00:38:02.003
Amen. Thanks, Charles! Thanks, Paul! Bless you.
00:00:00.001 --> 00:00:26.458
(Intro music) Hi there. Welcome to the Multiply Network. So glad you've tuned in today. I know you're going to be encouraged and inspired as we talk about how do we, as churches and leaders, best support newcomers to Canada?
00:00:26.460 --> 00:00:31.439
I know you're going to learn a lot from this interview and it'll be coming up in just a few moments.
00:00:31.440 --> 00:00:49.018
But I wanted to remind you that we also have another resource, our PAOCMultiply.com website that has many, many videos on all kinds of topics that are resources for you as leaders, for you as churches.
00:00:49.020 --> 00:00:53.649
They're free to use and we'd love for you to take advantage of them.
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PAOCMultiply.com. We also have on that same website - if you're interested in planting a church - some easy first steps to get you on the church planting journey.
00:01:04.079 --> 00:01:11.468
We have a two minute quiz that you need to take that will help us help you get on the right path for church multiplication.
00:01:11.469 --> 00:01:23.218
So make sure you check out that website if you have a few moments and hopefully you'll find something that will encourage you and support you in all your leadership activities.
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All right. Our guest this time is Charles Hermelink.
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He works for PAOC in the Mission Canada Department.
00:01:31.500 --> 00:01:34.468
He's the Cultural Language Guiding Group leader.
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He helps oversee Neighbours and Newcomers Network.
00:01:37.230 --> 00:01:43.528
He's working with Mission Canada Workers as the Onboarding Coordinator and Development Specialist.
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And in this podcast, we talk about newcomers to Canada, how churches need to respond.
00:01:49.349 --> 00:01:56.849
He said that there's well over 450,000 newcomers to Canada, and they're not just landing in Vancouver, Toronto.
00:01:56.849 --> 00:02:04.438
They're finding their way to smaller centers, and many of them upwards of 30% are already coming Christian.
00:02:04.439 --> 00:02:11.848
And so they're showing up in our churches. So how do we best respond and how do we best support them? And we talk about one big
00:02:11.849 --> 00:02:18.748
to not be accidentally multicultural, but being intentionally intercultural.
00:02:18.750 --> 00:02:24.658
So we talk about cross-cultural intelligence and he lays out so many great resources.
00:02:24.659 --> 00:02:31.509
Get out your notepad because it's going to be a great interview and it's coming up right now.
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Hi Charles, welcome to the podcast.
00:02:40.650 --> 00:02:43.429
Hi, Paul. Thanks for asking me to come on.
00:02:43.430 --> 00:02:48.598
Oh, so great that you're able to take some time for us on a really important topic today.
00:02:48.599 --> 00:03:01.719
But before we get into that, which ties to the topic, tell us a little bit about your role in Mission Canada and some of the things you're responsible for and maybe how you can help churches.
00:03:02.919 --> 00:03:07.269
Yeah. About a year and a half ago came back to Mission Canada on a full time basis.
00:03:07.270 --> 00:03:12.489
My role is like many, is a bit of a hybrid of three primary things there.
00:03:12.490 --> 00:03:16.628
One is cultural language guiding group coordinator.
00:03:16.629 --> 00:03:42.968
So Mission Canada has guiding groups for all of our various priorities and those are made up of actually district and pastoral leaders, ministry leaders, from all across the country. So mine is cultural language groups. Kind of a subset of that is what we call Neighbours and Newcomers Network, which is really sort of the RAN division.
00:03:42.969 --> 00:04:07.209
It's not as aggressive, you know, as somebody who is placed in a restricted access country, but it is for workers, especially among Muslims, but can be among other cultural groups here in Canada that need a bit more of a protected status. Because being labeled a missionary on the PAOC website would be problematic for them.
00:04:07.210 --> 00:04:08.199
So there's that.
00:04:08.199 --> 00:04:11.919
And then there's I'm also the onboarding coordinator.
00:04:11.919 --> 00:04:16.879
And onboarding for us is a little bit different than most of HR.
00:04:17.528 --> 00:04:22.449
Usually onboarding is, hey, we're going to hire you and here's your training and orientation.
00:04:22.449 --> 00:04:32.199
So, like when I was a missionary and before we went overseas, and same with Mission Canada, somebody comes to us and they say, hey, I'm feeling call of God and I want to do this.
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And we affirm that.
00:04:33.244 --> 00:04:56.829
Well, there can be a process from months to a year and a half, where somebody is onboarding. It's all the prep prior to deployment, which includes their fundraising - Which relates to the third area, which is I'm the development specialist, so the fundraising trainer and coach, although I very much dislike the term fundraising because the emphasis is in the wrong place.
00:04:56.829 --> 00:04:59.439
Right? I prefer partnership development.
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There you go.
00:05:00.370 --> 00:05:01.420
Which is really what it is.
00:05:02.529 --> 00:05:04.209
Boy, that sounds like a big job.
00:05:04.209 --> 00:05:11.139
And of course, Mission Canada for PAOC has both the guiding group side but also the agency side.
00:05:11.139 --> 00:05:22.569
The guiding group works with, you know, partners right across Canada trying to figure things out and reaching the missional gaps in Canada and then the agencies actually sending the workers and getting them ready.
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And so that's, incase some of you were wondering what Mission Canada does for PAOC.
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Charles has got his fingerprints in everything. Sounds like.
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One of the things -- Not everything, thankfully.
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(Laughter) Yeah, that's true, not everything.
00:05:36.579 --> 00:05:54.009
One of the things that -- from our last podcast you remarked about newcomers to Canada and we're going to talk quite a bit about that and how churches can prepare, respond, be proactive.
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It's a wonderful opportunity that God is bringing the world to Canada.
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But why don't you tell us a little bit about some of the things before we get there, some of the things you're noticing about newcomers to Canada and and how that may or may not have an impact on churches?
00:06:09.610 --> 00:06:20.694
Yeah, like, you know, I think anybody who's been watching any, you know, national news, reading national news, following anything, you know, it pops up so often, you know, annually here.
00:06:20.696 --> 00:06:31.178
You know, we'll talk about Canada, you know, and Toronto and other major urban centers nationwide as being the most multicultural in the world.
00:06:31.180 --> 00:06:32.978
You know, we kind of know that.
00:06:32.980 --> 00:06:35.649
Here's what here's what you don't hear.
00:06:35.649 --> 00:06:42.129
Well, this last year, they will have talked about it was the were figure was roughly 450,000 newcomers.
00:06:42.129 --> 00:06:43.749
So almost a half a million.
00:06:43.750 --> 00:06:53.379
Actually, the rate is almost double that because they are not counting all of the categories.
00:06:53.379 --> 00:07:00.158
And I asked somebody why that was, and they said, because the government doesn't want us to know.
00:07:00.160 --> 00:07:02.509
They don't, because people are getting upset about it.
00:07:02.509 --> 00:07:04.778
Right? But the implications
00:07:04.779 --> 00:07:21.939
every locale, even out beyond suburbia, you know, into smaller burbs everywhere it is affected. We're growing in multicultural dynamics and that affects congregations both internally and externally.
00:07:21.939 --> 00:07:29.108
Internally, because Christians - it's still around 30 to 35% of all newcomers to Canada are Christians.
00:07:29.110 --> 00:07:34.869
And so they're landing in our churches and they're coming out of their Christian cultural context.
00:07:34.870 --> 00:07:37.358
And so that's affecting congregations internally.
00:07:37.360 --> 00:07:43.809
And then there's the external with, well, they're landing in our community and how are we as churches engaging them?
00:07:43.810 --> 00:07:49.178
And that's what we want to talk about today, because this is not a new reality.
00:07:49.180 --> 00:07:55.598
But I know for some rural centers, maybe some smaller cities, this is in their churches.
00:07:55.600 --> 00:07:59.678
This is really starting to show up.
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So I want you to talk with us a little bit today.
00:08:03.360 --> 00:08:09.538
And I know you're gonna talk a little bit about your background and somehow and then how that all plays into your current role.
00:08:09.540 --> 00:08:21.238
But you wrote in an email to me about being not accidentally multicultural but being intentionally intercultural.
00:08:21.240 --> 00:08:25.889
So talk to us about this cultural competence and how this all plays together.
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Because I think there's a lot of pastors out there scratching their heads going, How do we do this better?
00:08:31.829 --> 00:08:45.298
Charles has all the answers! I know they are too! Because they're calling me, they're emailing me, they're getting referred to me, you know, and to Mission Canada and saying, uh-oh, this is a new reality, you know, kind of to your last question.
00:08:45.299 --> 00:08:51.958
Post COVID, it's a fascinating period of time, because it's as if there was pent up demand.
00:08:51.960 --> 00:08:52.937
People couldn't go to church.
00:08:52.937 --> 00:08:54.688
People didn't want to go to church.
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People went online.
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They're searching. Well, that includes all the newcomers that are here and arriving or people that through the pandemic, this has stirred, this made them question.
00:09:06.059 --> 00:09:10.589
And so they're asking about, you know, the big questions of life.
00:09:10.590 --> 00:09:12.028
Right? And so they're online.
00:09:12.029 --> 00:09:27.839
Well, when we sort of reopened end of last year, this first early this year, you know, I have more churches contacting me saying, Wow, my congregation now is not the same as it was before.
00:09:27.840 --> 00:09:32.759
They're talking literally and figuratively. Literally, you know, lots of people changed.
00:09:32.759 --> 00:09:38.129
I have all these newcomers and newcomers who are newcomers to Canada as well.
00:09:38.129 --> 00:09:41.339
And so it's entirely changed the dynamic.
00:09:41.340 --> 00:09:46.667
I was at a section meeting a couple of weeks ago and this pastor who I've known for years, actually said to me, What do I do with these Christians who've shown up from these other countries? And they're making demands of me, you know.
00:09:46.668 --> 00:10:37.048
And he says, I wasn't trained for this, you know. So I feel that for pastors, you know, on that on that level. So, yeah, you asked me about my background and why it why is it I'm passionate about this? Probably because God called me. Yeah, this is why. Otherwise I'd be off doing something else. So I was trained mission in missions academically and practically outside of Canada. So my training was very, very oriented in sociology, anthropology, intercultural communication, contextualization, without syncretism, language and culture learning not as a monocultural pastor at all.
00:10:37.049 --> 00:10:44.339
Now, I've been a pastor, I've been a Staff Pastor and I've been a Lead Pastor. And I always feel that I wasn't trained for this, right?
00:10:44.340 --> 00:10:50.369
Kind of a little bit of that feeling, but trained for our multicultural world today.
00:10:51.389 --> 00:11:02.938
So like I said, I really feel for pastors who are thrown into this increasingly multicultural dynamics within their congregation and outside in their communities.
00:11:02.940 --> 00:11:09.509
And so I you know, I'm a I'm a resource guy. I'm always looking at what's available to help all of us.
00:11:09.509 --> 00:11:11.839
So I wanted to mention two of those really quick.
00:11:11.840 --> 00:11:27.899
One is a book- and really anything written by David Livermore on CQ, on Cultural Intelligence. You know, years ago we would hear about IQ and then we started hearing about EQ, with emotional intelligence.
00:11:27.899 --> 00:11:32.399
Now we're hearing about CQ, which is cultural intelligence.
00:11:32.399 --> 00:11:35.428
Really, it's about cross-cultural intelligence.
00:11:35.429 --> 00:11:49.139
Do I have enough breadth of mind and spirit to - and experience too - to communicate cross culturally with somebody and be understood and understand them well.
00:11:49.139 --> 00:11:54.119
So he's got a book from just a few years ago called The Cultural Intelligence Difference.
00:11:54.120 --> 00:11:58.739
Now, he's got lots of books, but there there is one that is really good.
00:11:58.740 --> 00:12:00.839
Now, Livermore is in the U.S.
00:12:00.840 --> 00:12:07.438
and he is writing - and it doesn't come out strongly, but Livermore is actually a christian.
00:12:07.440 --> 00:12:16.318
But he has gone into the very business world and that. But his stuff is thoroughly accessible and great for us.
00:12:16.320 --> 00:12:26.339
Another one which is really helpful to pastors - And I tell pastors this, I recommend this book to every pastor that I'm talking to, because I says it'll change your preaching.
00:12:26.340 --> 00:12:31.288
It'll change your communication within your community, your congregation and outside.
00:12:31.289 --> 00:12:34.750
It's called Effective Cross-Cultural Evangelism.
00:12:36.000 --> 00:12:49.196
By IVP, you know, InterVarsity and just a few, couple of years ago - by Bud Simon and Jay Moon - and they're giving us, like in one small volume, almost a missions degree.
00:12:49.197 --> 00:12:54.389
Because I know, like we're, as pastors, we don't have time to go back to get a degree.
00:12:54.389 --> 00:12:57.958
Right. I just need some things that are going to help me understand.
00:12:57.960 --> 00:13:05.879
And so most of us in our Canadian context are coming out of the truth and guilt cultural worldview.
00:13:05.879 --> 00:13:10.969
And so we tend to proclaim the gospel in a truth and guilt worldview.
00:13:10.970 --> 00:13:24.318
However, as our congregation and as our community outside the church is increasingly multicultural, our style of communicating the gospel is missing the mark.
00:13:24.320 --> 00:13:36.198
And it's like, why am I communicating and they're not responding? Well, the gospel - this is a beautiful thing - the gospel communicates in all of the worldviews existent in the world.
00:13:36.200 --> 00:13:40.948
It's just that we've been programed by our culture to see it and communicate in one way.
00:13:40.950 --> 00:13:52.288
So this book, they're going to help us understand, well, how do I speak to somebody who's coming out of a fear and power worldview, or how do I speak to somebody who's coming out of honor and shame?
00:13:52.289 --> 00:13:53.448
I love this.
00:13:53.450 --> 00:13:59.479
They talk about the emergent worldview today, which is millennials and younger.
00:13:59.480 --> 00:14:06.798
So this is our younger generations and it is a indifferent worldview.
00:14:06.799 --> 00:14:12.708
And also about issues - I and group, on group identity.
00:14:12.710 --> 00:14:18.528
I'm bonded to this group over this issue. And I want to be active in this particular area.
00:14:18.529 --> 00:14:27.678
So it makes me think of Greta Thunberg, who I just saw on the news last night, you know, some post about Greta Thunberg graduating from high school.
00:14:27.679 --> 00:14:30.419
You know, she's a great example of this, right?
00:14:31.460 --> 00:14:40.129
Of people who would be younger and indifferent to a spiritual worldview because it's not relevant to them. They don't perceive the world that way.
00:14:40.129 --> 00:14:53.359
Rather, they would say, why would I care about a spiritual worldview which may or may not exist when the world, to her, is burning, you know, and it's all going to fall right down around our ears.
00:14:53.360 --> 00:14:55.879
Now, whether you agree with her or not is indifferent.
00:14:55.879 --> 00:15:01.948
It's how do you communicate with people in that mental frame of reference.
00:15:01.950 --> 00:15:02.749
Right.
00:15:02.750 --> 00:15:10.038
So this is kind of where I'm coming from. These are resources that are that I try to create here.
00:15:10.039 --> 00:15:19.158
I'm all about the Church - big C, which boils down to means the local congregation, the local pastoral leadership team.
00:15:19.159 --> 00:15:32.808
Being healthy, being all that God is intended to be. And so I looked at a lot of, read totally into all the materials on, you know, church revitalization when I was at my church.
00:15:32.809 --> 00:15:38.568
Right. And, you know, I often heard the theme Healthy Things Grow, right?
00:15:38.570 --> 00:15:40.980
So you guys have probably talked a lot about that.
00:15:41.929 --> 00:15:54.918
Right? So, you know, here is to the question you asked specifically, are we growing unintentionally multicultural, which I give credit to David Wells for that. David Wells has probably been talking that for 20 years.
00:15:54.919 --> 00:16:13.788
Back when I was on staff at KRT, Kennedy Road Tabernacle in Brampton, you know, over 20 years ago, we saw that, we watched this happen in the almost ten years that I was there. We went from a median age, post 50, white congregation to a very multicultural.
00:16:13.789 --> 00:16:16.399
Now, I was recently back there this last year.
00:16:16.399 --> 00:16:24.109
Wow. It's just, you know, multiculturalism on steroids, right? But this is not the goal.
00:16:24.110 --> 00:16:31.308
This is -- multiculturalism is only a descriptive of the dynamic that is already, I see. I perceive.
00:16:31.309 --> 00:16:41.490
Rather are we aspiring to the always greater spiritual Spirit-led biblical goal of being intentionally intercultural?
00:16:42.590 --> 00:16:46.519
Now that's a different animal entirely.
00:16:46.519 --> 00:16:47.308
So yeah.
00:16:47.309 --> 00:16:52.158
So explain that, why that's maybe a better way to look at this.
00:16:52.159 --> 00:17:06.558
So the healthiest --- Here's my prime, the big idea as we would say did preaching, right, the prime premise here -- The healthiest and most growing churches are those who are intentionally engaging.
00:17:06.559 --> 00:17:09.648
They're reaching newcomers to Canada in their area.
00:17:09.650 --> 00:17:11.538
Hey, that's my central idea.
00:17:11.539 --> 00:17:17.327
What I want, if you takeaway anything else from this conversation, that's what I want people to take away.
00:17:17.328 --> 00:17:29.990
It is to my advantage for me, as a local church pastor, for my church to be healthy, my church to be growing, my church to have impact locally.
00:17:29.991 --> 00:17:34.459
Because it's relative to what's happening in the nation.
00:17:34.460 --> 00:17:36.348
And it's where the nation is going.
00:17:36.349 --> 00:17:38.450
Our rates of immigration just continue to increase.
00:17:38.451 --> 00:17:44.868
Ed Stetzer and Jerry Rankin wrote a book back in 2010 called Spiritual Warfare and Missions.
00:17:44.869 --> 00:17:57.439
they have discovered the key to spiritual vitality and local impact is a heart for God's kingdom work to the ends of the earth.
00:17:57.440 --> 00:18:02.699
Now, that's a fascinating quote to me, and we need to unpack a little bit right here.
00:18:02.700 --> 00:18:05.349
Jesus says - You know, we as Pentecostals love
00:18:07.690 --> 00:18:14.919
When the Spirit's power comes upon us, we will be his witnesses in Jerusalem.
00:18:14.920 --> 00:18:18.838
That's where we live, among people who are like us.
00:18:18.839 --> 00:18:21.628
And in all of Judea and Samaria.
00:18:21.630 --> 00:18:23.249
Now, that's in our region.
00:18:23.250 --> 00:18:33.689
But it's also the cultural difference among people, both like us and not like us. Samaritans are not like the Jews.
00:18:33.690 --> 00:18:35.138
And to the ends of the earth.
00:18:35.140 --> 00:18:43.739
So we as a Movement, we formed as a Movement because - and we've been sending missionaries for a hundred years right to the end of the earth.
00:18:43.740 --> 00:18:57.209
Our current challenge is not just with our Jerusalems and our Judaians, but we're really with our Samaritans, the people who are increasingly the ends of the earth who come and they moved into our neighborhoods and they live here among us, but they're not like us.
00:18:57.210 --> 00:19:05.878
Right? So this dynamic - reaching newcomers - I see is a key to revitalization and church growth.
00:19:05.880 --> 00:19:06.659
And I saw it.
00:19:06.660 --> 00:19:08.608
Right? So back to your question.
00:19:08.609 --> 00:19:20.009
How do we do this well as a local church? Well, a summary list really, really quick is ESL - English as a Second Language, light level, conversation circles.
00:19:20.009 --> 00:19:29.074
So I have never been trained in ESL, but I have started ESL at three different churches and maybe inspired more across the country as I talk about this.
00:19:29.075 --> 00:19:45.449
It's household setup and housing issues, jobs, job pre- and job hunting skills, you know, grocery shopping, navigating our medical system, our school system, even navigating government paperwork.
00:19:45.450 --> 00:19:51.749
There's an endless amount of ways in which we can engage and literally help people.
00:19:51.750 --> 00:19:55.709
But even more internally, we have to move beyond.
00:19:55.710 --> 00:20:04.409
Here would be a difference between unintentional multiculturalism or maybe first stages of intentional multiculturalism.
00:20:04.410 --> 00:20:13.138
We have to move beyond what might be perceived as - We could call it tokenism.
00:20:13.140 --> 00:20:16.078
Now, that's a little bit of a painful term, right?
00:20:16.079 --> 00:20:21.239
And assimilation. We don't want to be guilty of either of those.
00:20:21.240 --> 00:20:36.148
But sometimes if we're just like, wow, if I, you know, maybe we're thinking in the back of my head, if I have this person on the stage or on the board or in the staff or something, well now I'm having some visible diversity, right?
00:20:36.150 --> 00:20:39.419
And that's not bad, But that's not the end goal.
00:20:39.420 --> 00:20:43.048
That's only a step toward the goal.
00:20:43.049 --> 00:20:48.088
And so really, what we're talking about is an intentional integration.
00:20:48.089 --> 00:21:00.298
Cultural integration is not just assimilating them, not just having them visible minorities come in and be like us, but rather for them to come in and change us.
00:21:00.299 --> 00:21:02.528
And this is where it gets uncomfortable.
00:21:02.529 --> 00:21:03.778
That's a great point, though.
00:21:03.779 --> 00:21:06.209
Like that is a great point.
00:21:06.210 --> 00:21:09.419
We forget to position ourselves as learners here.
00:21:09.420 --> 00:21:12.148
If we're not learners, we're making mistakes.
00:21:12.150 --> 00:21:16.809
So we need to celebrate culture, Right?
00:21:17.339 --> 00:21:21.358
We're not celebrating just our culture, our Canadian culture.
00:21:21.359 --> 00:21:23.969
We're celebrating everyone's culture.
00:21:23.970 --> 00:21:28.888
Because all cultures come under the kingdom and under the gospel.
00:21:28.890 --> 00:21:52.558
All cultures need to change to become more like a heavenly culture. And so we want to integrate cultural forms into worship, cultural forms, into thought and processes, cross-cultural theological interpretations, not just our own. So we're changed in the process and we end up looking more like Revelation
00:21:52.559 --> 00:21:56.348
9 and we end up looking like what heaven is going to look at, right? Yeah.
00:21:56.349 --> 00:21:57.778
Now, here's the thing.
00:21:57.779 --> 00:21:58.769
I love this.
00:21:58.769 --> 00:22:11.459
The world stands up and take notice of us when we reach beyond ourselves and bless those in need outside our current congregation.
00:22:11.460 --> 00:22:21.419
So as William Temple said 150 years ago, the church exists primarily for the sake of those who are still outside of it.
00:22:21.420 --> 00:22:27.598
It is a mistake to suppose that God is only or even chiefly concerned with religion.
00:22:28.660 --> 00:22:30.338
And that's really the truth here.
00:22:30.339 --> 00:22:33.939
So preaching to the choir, perhaps for your listeners, Paul.
00:22:33.940 --> 00:22:39.009
You know, Matthew 5, you know - We're the light and we're the salt, right?
00:22:39.009 --> 00:22:56.558
In the same way, let your light shine before men that they may see your good deeds and glorify your father in heaven. That's got to be seen outside because otherwise they're not seeing what's happening inside the church. Ephesians 2, you know, we emphasize Ephesians
00:22:56.559 --> 00:23:07.868
8-9, but we forget verse ten, we are God's handiwork created in Christ years to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do. Right.
00:23:07.869 --> 00:23:09.519
First, Peter, Chapter 2.
00:23:09.519 --> 00:23:33.308
You know, I'm urging you on one hand, Holiness, to abstain from the desires of the flesh which wage war against your soul but - here - conduct yourselves in such a way to honor with such honor among the Gentiles that they would slander you as evil deals, that though they would slander you, they may see your good deeds and glorify your God on the day that He visits us.
00:23:33.309 --> 00:23:43.959
So the question really before us is, is our church being ignored by the world because we're only focused on the well-being of our own members?
00:23:43.960 --> 00:23:47.469
Or are we focused on internal issues only?
00:23:47.470 --> 00:23:56.679
Are we only intentionally ministering to those already ministered to and not those who are least reached and most vulnerable in our own neighborhoods?
00:23:56.680 --> 00:24:15.980
So are we simply reflecting the world around us with either convenient blindness to the needs of almost a million newcomers arriving annually and some literally who are almost starving on our campuses, international students and in our community.
00:24:16.869 --> 00:24:30.669
Literally. Or worse, are we reflecting the prejudicial attitudes of the world against newcomers to Canada, most of which there are not, they are lies, they're not truths that back up the prejudices that are there.
00:24:30.670 --> 00:24:43.778
So when I talk about these things, sometimes, you know, I'm almost on the edge of prophetic and really in the realm of apostolic, calling the church into the harvest fields that Jesus looked upon.
00:24:43.779 --> 00:24:45.159
Jesus wept over.
00:24:45.160 --> 00:24:53.409
Jesus commanded us to pray for, and then immediately sent his disciples into the very ripe harvest field.
00:24:53.410 --> 00:24:57.128
So Jesus says, as the Father sends me, so I'm sending you.
00:24:57.130 --> 00:25:04.607
Is there any other mistakes or landmines that we can watch out for to make sure that we're doing intentional intercultural well?
00:25:06.369 --> 00:25:12.909
Well those would be them - convenient blindness, comfortable mediocrity, reaching business as usual.
00:25:12.910 --> 00:25:16.659
And Jesus and the Spirit are calling us out of that apathy.
00:25:16.660 --> 00:25:25.509
So what should churches be doing and how can we ensure they're doing it well? You asked me that question, right?
00:25:25.509 --> 00:25:26.979
Well, I love this.
00:25:26.980 --> 00:25:33.098
I remember this right from one of the revitalization guys, and he was saying, Get up and do something.
00:25:33.099 --> 00:25:34.058
Anything.
00:25:34.059 --> 00:25:35.738
Stop thinking about it and do it.
00:25:35.739 --> 00:25:36.739
It is one.
00:25:37.960 --> 00:25:42.009
Rallying the troops, Share the vision, call them forward, equip them and release them.
00:25:42.009 --> 00:25:44.108
That's what we're here for as leaders, right?
00:25:44.109 --> 00:25:45.429
Go out and fail.
00:25:45.430 --> 00:25:48.289
Learn something, retool, try it again.
00:25:49.420 --> 00:25:56.378
At our PAOC staff chapel a couple of months ago, Tim Woodcock was asked to come and speak.
00:25:56.380 --> 00:25:57.699
Here's a Canadian.
00:25:57.700 --> 00:26:00.429
He's now a Glad Tidings in Burlington.
00:26:00.430 --> 00:26:05.949
And he was, for a couple of decades, in ministry in the United States.
00:26:05.950 --> 00:26:13.298
And he was asked as he's come back, you know what's the difference and lay the finger on the difference between Americans and Canadians.
00:26:13.299 --> 00:26:20.558
And I know that the comparison alone makes many Canadians start to bristle. You know, we got our back up over this.
00:26:20.559 --> 00:26:27.548
But we're just talking about cultural differences that we perceive. And I think this is valuable to us.
00:26:27.549 --> 00:26:31.568
One is Americans are not afraid to fail.
00:26:31.569 --> 00:26:38.108
Go out, do something, fail, learn, retool, do it again, you know, and try again.
00:26:38.109 --> 00:26:41.288
Canadians, we're afraid to offend.
00:26:42.640 --> 00:26:46.210
And that lends us toward are we afraid of failure?
00:26:47.289 --> 00:26:54.489
And so we don't put ourselves out there socially in a conversation or organizationally.
00:26:54.490 --> 00:26:55.568
So we don't.
00:26:55.569 --> 00:26:59.259
But we're right back to if there's no risk, there's no reward.
00:27:00.490 --> 00:27:15.338
And so the irony to me is that as Canadians, the Church, not the government, but the Church, we offend exactly because we're not doing enough to throw open our arms and our doors and our buildings and our bank accounts.
00:27:15.339 --> 00:27:21.818
And even more than that, Our time and our hearts to newcomers, right?
00:27:21.819 --> 00:27:33.269
So to ensure we're doing this, well, what do we do? We risk, we vision cast. We lead in new ways. Then our congregation is going to be healthy. They're going to be outwardly focused, grow.
00:27:33.269 --> 00:27:37.349
I saw this at my 100 year old church in Toronto.
00:27:39.029 --> 00:27:47.398
That only ESL was the only thing I found that actually brought newcomers in.
00:27:47.400 --> 00:27:54.538
We saw people transition from ESL classes in mid-week to church on Sunday.
00:27:54.539 --> 00:27:59.248
Just, it was a natural, wasn't even that intentional on our part you know they naturally. Salvations.
00:28:00.900 --> 00:28:05.878
Joy and excitement in the church growth, before Covid shut it all down.
00:28:05.880 --> 00:28:32.769
I know I got you connected with my friend just out east there and you're able to chat with him and he's, he's been, you know, saying to me, you know, this is one of the most fruitful things we do is ESL or a Bible study for those that have moved to his community that are just looking for relationship. Not Christians, but just looking for relationship, other people that they can share language with.
00:28:33.900 --> 00:28:34.888
It's a beautiful thing.
00:28:34.890 --> 00:28:44.549
And for us, I like how you said that, maybe we're offending culture more by not throwing open our arms and our wallets and our schedules and you know.
00:28:44.550 --> 00:28:47.788
That was a really, really great thought.
00:28:47.789 --> 00:28:59.739
We have -- I spend a lot of time with new church plants, you know, either pre-launch up to 3 to 5 years, somewhere in there.
00:28:59.740 --> 00:29:06.219
They're scrambling to find people on Sundays to help, small groups on Wednesdays. So when, you know, like they're the solo pastor.
00:29:06.220 --> 00:29:15.729
And so, you know, there's other solo pastors out there that don't have staff, don't have someone to oversee this, and they are already taxed.
00:29:15.730 --> 00:29:19.179
They don't have a lot of extra time or money.
00:29:19.180 --> 00:29:29.798
What are some what things that you could encourage them with that would just be like, yeah, here's something that you can do or here's some thoughts for you to consider.
00:29:29.799 --> 00:29:35.499
You're a solo pastor, rural church plant, maybe smaller city, whatever.
00:29:35.500 --> 00:29:39.578
What can they do that would produce some fruit?
00:29:39.579 --> 00:29:42.259
Help them move their church in the right direction?
00:29:42.259 --> 00:29:43.338
Yeah. Yeah.
00:29:43.339 --> 00:29:44.709
Great question.
00:29:44.710 --> 00:29:49.568
Really, what we're looking for -- we're not looking for pastors to lead ESL programs, right?
00:29:49.569 --> 00:29:54.068
We're looking for pastors to be instigators, right?
00:29:54.069 --> 00:29:55.269
To be catalysts.
00:29:55.269 --> 00:29:59.798
You know, and I'm not looking for pastors, you know, to do more.
00:29:59.799 --> 00:30:06.159
In fact, we did ours on Wednesday nights, and I ran the Wednesday night Bible study.
00:30:06.160 --> 00:30:11.618
And I you know, I had this core group. It would be anywhere from 6 to 15 people.
00:30:11.619 --> 00:30:17.000
And I actually said to them, I would rather you didn't come to my mid-week Bible study.
00:30:17.980 --> 00:30:24.189
I would rather you go volunteer in the ESL, which we started on the same night at the same time.
00:30:24.190 --> 00:30:28.028
And they ran - they had the big venue in the church building, you know, downstairs.
00:30:28.029 --> 00:30:30.788
And it was three times as big as my class.
00:30:30.789 --> 00:30:37.028
And I did. I had people leave and go do that. And that made me joyful as a pastor. So what's the point?
00:30:37.029 --> 00:30:42.969
You have resources in your church called your members, right?
00:30:42.970 --> 00:30:49.209
Who actually, many of them are passionate about this. They're experienced.
00:30:49.210 --> 00:30:57.909
So we've just launched this at my church that I've been going to for a year and a half to it now. And, you know, I say my church - I'm just a member.
00:30:57.910 --> 00:30:59.108
I'm not on staff.
00:30:59.109 --> 00:31:02.019
I don't have any official positions, none of those sort of things.
00:31:02.019 --> 00:31:05.618
I'm just a life group leader who is passionate about this area.
00:31:05.619 --> 00:31:11.769
We have more people who actually are already certified in ESL.
00:31:11.769 --> 00:31:20.739
I have a guy who's a certified translator, certified job coach for cross-cultural things, you know, and people have past experience.
00:31:20.740 --> 00:31:29.378
And then I have people coming out of the woodwork who are saying, well, these are my language backgrounds and I'm willing to help anybody who shows up.
00:31:29.380 --> 00:31:33.578
So we've got half a dozen languages skills all represented.
00:31:33.579 --> 00:31:35.229
You know, it's it's fabulous.
00:31:35.230 --> 00:31:36.969
And they're doing it.
00:31:36.970 --> 00:31:38.409
I'm just celebrating them.
00:31:38.410 --> 00:31:39.729
They're the ones running it.
00:31:39.730 --> 00:31:42.128
So here's a practical way.
00:31:42.130 --> 00:31:57.189
I love this. I noticed this on Sunday. So our church uses a little QR code on the back of the seat and they have it on the slides to sort of register because everything is digital and not analog and written, you know, nowadays.
00:31:57.190 --> 00:31:59.979
Well, they've changed that attendance form.
00:31:59.980 --> 00:32:07.449
It actually now asks everybody every Sunday, do you have other languages, Do you have other language skills?
00:32:07.450 --> 00:32:10.298
Would you like to be involved in this ministry?
00:32:10.299 --> 00:32:12.368
Yeah, they're actually serving every single week.
00:32:12.369 --> 00:32:13.369
It's a great idea. Great idea.
00:32:15.160 --> 00:32:18.308
They use Wufoo! I didn't even know what Wufoo was.
00:32:19.479 --> 00:32:21.380
(Laughter) Now you're aging yourself, Charles.
00:32:22.058 --> 00:32:30.038
And it populates this form and it downloads through a Google spreadsheet. We all access it, right? You know, and now I got them signed up to Meet Up.
00:32:30.039 --> 00:32:37.479
And so now we have people from Meet Up, which is an app and a website, so we're broadcasting it to our greater area.
00:32:37.480 --> 00:32:40.328
We have people driving from other cities, right?
00:32:40.329 --> 00:32:45.909
Are saying, I just want to come and connect with people and speak and talk. And fellowship.
00:32:45.910 --> 00:32:48.219
Because, you know, Paul, you touched on it a moment ago.
00:32:48.220 --> 00:32:51.818
A lot of newcomers are really lonely.
00:32:52.930 --> 00:32:54.057
They're isolated.
00:32:54.058 --> 00:32:54.608
Right?
00:32:54.609 --> 00:32:55.598
Totally.
00:32:55.599 --> 00:33:00.608
And, you know, it used to be said three months to six months to reach a newcomer.
00:33:00.609 --> 00:33:10.239
Now it's less than 90 days to reach a newcomer before they get integrated into their home cultural group here in Canada.
00:33:10.240 --> 00:33:23.769
Well, if you're talking about somebody who's from a different worldview, Muslim, Hindu, Sikh, Buddhist, you know, whatever, they can integrate into that community. We have lost our prime window for reaching them.
00:33:23.769 --> 00:33:28.670
Missions has come home to our local churches and we really are
00:33:29.769 --> 00:33:32.679
2 right now in our local church.
00:33:32.680 --> 00:33:41.048
The Spirit is given to us to be our witness to these people and to embrace them because the uttermost parts of the earth come home.
00:33:41.049 --> 00:33:43.058
So you asked about resources.
00:33:43.059 --> 00:33:46.808
So I have a vision and resource document that I'm always working on.
00:33:46.809 --> 00:33:48.249
It's a Kickstarter.
00:33:48.250 --> 00:33:49.358
It's going to get you going.
00:33:49.359 --> 00:33:53.469
It's called filoxenía, which is actually the Greek word for hospitality.
00:33:53.470 --> 00:33:59.388
I love it because it's this mash up of stranger and love.
00:33:59.390 --> 00:34:05.160
Love, you know, Philadelphia, you know, brotherly love, philos here.
00:34:05.269 --> 00:34:09.858
I'll provide that to you, Paul, and you can attach it or provide a link to it in your show notes.
00:34:11.210 --> 00:34:18.197
Because it then goes through - it's philosophy and vision - but it's also, the last several pages, are all resources.
00:34:18.199 --> 00:34:21.108
Here's how to think about your website.
00:34:21.110 --> 00:34:47.268
You know, one of the easiest things that are not going to cost the church anything to do is actually add -- it doesn't have to be visible-- add some languages in the the metadata of your website so that when somebody in Spanish, somebody in an in Tagalog or Urdu or Ukrainian is looking, your church now shows up in the web results because you've got that language on your website.
00:34:48.289 --> 00:34:48.748
Okay.
00:34:48.750 --> 00:34:55.518
You know easy, easy to do. It's got people on there who are doing fantastic things.
00:34:55.519 --> 00:35:01.219
It's got worship ideas, ministry ideas, ESL resource, all kinds of stuff.
00:35:01.219 --> 00:35:04.398
And then the other, like you say, is this is what I'm here for.
00:35:04.400 --> 00:35:10.009
We're here for to help churches, coach churches, act as a consultant.
00:35:10.010 --> 00:35:20.929
And that's - we would say because the life, the love of Christ compels us, is why Mission Canada's motto is because We Must.
00:35:20.929 --> 00:35:21.719
Yeah, we have to do it.
00:35:21.719 --> 00:35:23.838
The love of Christ is compelling us.
00:35:23.840 --> 00:35:24.798
So we must.
00:35:24.800 --> 00:35:25.309
Right?
00:35:25.309 --> 00:35:28.579
Well, Charles, this has been a rich time, man.
00:35:28.579 --> 00:35:31.869
Thanks for being a resource for me.
00:35:31.869 --> 00:35:37.548
Appreciated our conversations offline and how you've been a resource for church planters.
00:35:37.550 --> 00:35:39.708
I've directed you to a few.
00:35:39.710 --> 00:35:41.568
And love your servant heart.
00:35:41.570 --> 00:35:49.219
We'll attach that document in our show notes, as well as I'll put your contact information up there.
00:35:49.219 --> 00:35:50.659
What's the email again?
00:35:50.659 --> 00:35:52.579
Just in case people want to write it down now?
00:35:52.579 --> 00:35:55.969
Well, if you can spell it.
00:35:55.969 --> 00:35:56.969
Charles.Hermelink@paoc.org.
00:35:59.570 --> 00:36:01.938
Hermalink is not quite as bad as it first sounds.
00:36:01.940 --> 00:36:03.708
It's really just three little words.
00:36:03.710 --> 00:36:04.518
Her.
00:36:04.519 --> 00:36:05.478
Me.
00:36:05.480 --> 00:36:05.646
Link.
00:36:05.648 --> 00:36:06.648
Her. Me. Link.
00:36:08.269 --> 00:36:10.909
Her. Me. Link. That's my whole last name. Her. Me. Link.
00:36:11.885 --> 00:36:14.989
her, me, link! I know that's it.
00:36:16.074 --> 00:36:18.168
(Laughter) That's a senior pastor joke right there.
00:36:18.170 --> 00:36:21.588
You just cracked one open. I love it. Well, that's great.
00:36:21.590 --> 00:36:27.858
And I know that some people need -- We need to talk about this more because this isn't going away.
00:36:27.860 --> 00:36:58.190
And this is only going to be something that churches and leaders have to be intentional about. I was talking with a friend of mine who had, you know, gone to a retreat, sat down with the leadership team and said, Yeah, I thought we were doing good in this area until one of our board members who mentioned some things that just left him speechless, that that kind of stuff was still going on in his church.
00:36:59.539 --> 00:37:11.628
And so it's just like you have to be aware, you have to evaluate, you have to take time to think through things and you have to ask a ton of questions and be a learner.
00:37:11.630 --> 00:37:13.458
Well, yeah, we do.
00:37:13.460 --> 00:37:14.478
We do.
00:37:14.480 --> 00:37:33.438
Well, like I said, this is really, this is really important stuff we're talking about and what a wonderful opportunity that we have, that God has positioned Canada, and you as a leader and me as a leader, and our churches, in prime places to see the Kingdom of God advance here.
00:37:33.440 --> 00:37:36.438
So thank you for all your work, Charles. You're doing a great job.
00:37:36.440 --> 00:37:49.548
26 and 27 is one of the most fantastic missions verses relevant to us today. Because here's where we understand immigration.
00:37:49.550 --> 00:37:58.320
God is behind immigration so that they will perhaps seek him and find him, even though he is not very far from any one of them.
00:37:59.150 --> 00:38:00.827
Amen. Amen?
00:38:00.829 --> 00:38:02.003
Amen. Thanks, Charles! Thanks, Paul! Bless you.
