WEBVTT
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Hello and welcome to the Ms.
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Behavior Podcast.
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My name is Colette.
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And I'm Kurt.
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And we are here to talk about all things college student conduct.
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We welcome you and Kurt.
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I wanted to let you know we have nine people signed up for the Ms.
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Behavior Halloween Live Traitors event.
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Oh, that's exciting.
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Uh, are you prepared for the season premiere?
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I am.
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And you know I've been practicing with my Claudia Winkleman costume.
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We encourage costumes.
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How are you doing with your uh preparation?
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I uh I have a couple of options picked out, but uh my bandwidth right now is focused on a festival that we're planning.
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So I'm gonna devote immediately after that full creativity to this because folks, I've seen Colette's outfit and uh it's gonna be tough to top this.
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I'm feeling good.
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Uh if you're new to the podcast and don't know what we're talking about, we are going to host a live event on Zoom.
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It's sort of like a party game to give people and student conduct a little levity at a time of year that is often really hard.
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And so this is going to be Wednesday, October 28th at 7 p.m.
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It's free.
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And we are really gonna test people's student conduct skills of questioning, making decisions about who they think is lying and who's telling the truth.
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And if you've never seen the traders, the brand new season is starting.
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And also you don't have to have ever watched the traders to join in and play.
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It'll be fun.
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You mentioned uh a difficult time of year.
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You and I both grew up with parents who had uh who worked in education, and I feel like every year my parents had this sense of dread around Halloween because all the kids were about to be on a massive sugar high, and then following that, a massive sugar depletion of some kind.
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So there was like a solid two weeks of concerns about behavior and what that classroom environment was going to be like.
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And I'm guessing that doesn't change in higher education.
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Now that I think about it, that's sort of a crazy time to go out and party a little more than maybe you would normally party.
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Party and then judgment about costume decisions and the ramifications of the hat.
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I want to just send some kudos out.
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I have gotten word that one of our colleagues, Danielle Remigo McGrath, just defended successfully uh her dissertation about student conduct.
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And we just had an episode with Tiffany Shierling, who also just successfully defended.
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So thank you to all our researchers out there that are helping us be better practitioners.
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All these smarties out in the world.
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I love it.
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And one last information, Kurt, I don't know if you read.
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There's an update to the legal case we talked about recently at Florida International.
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I did not see it.
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Tell me.
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There's a judge who just made a quick decision that agreed with you that the FIU had been overreaching in their strict requirements regarding student protests.
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Uh, it looks like the students are on the winning side for right now, anyway.
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So I know you had very strong opinions.
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And listeners, if you have not listened to the episode about FIU and their protesters, I think that is a really good starter episode for you of misbehavior.
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But Kurt, I thought of you as I was reading the judge's decision.
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I I don't normally swear that much, uh, but that did piss me off quite a bit.
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So I'm happy for the outcome, absolutely.
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And I'm not gonna lie, I'm a little surprised that it went in favor of the students given the environment right now.
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So, but I'm I'm gonna mark that to read tonight.
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Thank you.
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Very nice.
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Well, as a the episode editor, I learned how to bleep for that episode.
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So you did me a favor in uh stretching my expertise.
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Is there an unredacted version uh that I can send to my dad?
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The director's cut.
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Yeah.
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Well, let's uh get right into.
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We have a uh guest today that I think um Craig Allen.
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I believe I met you at MACUHO in 1999.
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Is that possible?
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That that could be about right, yeah.
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So we usually, this is probably pretty lazy, but we have our guests introduced themselves so you can tell the world what you would want them to know about you, and then I'll do a little gushing about what I know about you.
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Thank you.
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So uh my name is Craig Allen.
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I am uh currently the executive director for housing and for me and sporty life of Texas Christian University, well known by TCU, uh to many outside of this area.
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But uh I've been here now for 21 years.
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Uh I came from the Mid-Atlantic region, Seton Hall, where it is when I was working there when I met you.
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And prior to that, I worked at the University of Arizona.
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Um I have three children, um, one still at TCU, the other ones graduated and are out adulting, which is exciting.
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And I am uh completed my doctorate about one year ago and studied uh the residential model to be used here at TCU, a model that we call KCE mean Know Connect and Empower, which was a relationship-based model for residential education.
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Um we've had great success.
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We haven't done our little icebreaker in a while.
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Oh, yeah.
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Yes.
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So, Craig, um we like to ask our guests, is there a time that you can tell us about that you got in trouble as an undergraduate student and and what did that look like?
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Oh one of the times I got in trouble was when a small metal trash can was tossed from a window of a study lounge.
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Turns out I actually didn't do it, but I was in the room with the person who did.
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And that person, an older student, I was a freshman at the time.
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He uh he tried to pin it on me because he was found but severely pits and unbound just from a six-story window.
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And interestingly enough, uh, I often sometimes tell that story about I'd had to go to a hear
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ing and testify that he was the one who did this.
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And uh, he was not too happy that I just wanted to share that he was responsible.
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And so, um I I learned how to have to stand up to yourself and and do what's right, even when prevent that you might face an from peers.
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Um now, that being said, I I can remember being in Marines where alcohol was present.
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I like to think that was big training to become an RA to know how students do made and how they tried to hide what they had.
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Um, but I also went to school and at the time the drinking age was still 18, because it was a very different kind of environment.
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Unless he was smallest than he is today.
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Good question.
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Hadn't thought about that in a while.
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So he threw the trash can and tried to pin it on you and then was uh not happy that you told the truth.
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That's correct.
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That's crazy.
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You know, I think we talk a lot about uh lessons learned outside of the classroom.
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Uh and I think this is a great example of you your takeaway was you had to learn how to stand up for yourself.
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Uh that's a tough choice at 18, I think.
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It was.
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Um now I was fortunate that there were other kids on my floor who didn't really like him anyway.
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I mean and so while he tried to be a little bit of a bully, I had other guys on the floor.
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I lived in the floor where I was born in a woman sixth freshman, and all the other guys were sophomores and seniors.
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And I was fortunate that they had got bot.
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And so I was never really worried that I was gonna be corporately I got but uh but he was definitely not having my student with quite a while.
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Wonder where he is now.
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I don't know.
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You know, the thing is that as the year went on, because he didn't get thrown out and he got in trouble, but he he wasn't expelled or anything like that.
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And probably by the middle of that semester, because he was really in the car.
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Um he and I would hang out and be things scary.
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So it's like we you moved past her, which is also I think a valuable lesson, right?
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Yeah.
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That you can have a really uncomfortable situation like that, but you can still move past it and and be friendly with someone and and ultimately that a fine move.
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I think about the way conduct officers too handle those cases when people are pointing the finger at each other and it's not always positive.
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So you went into that as a young person, really having to trust a system that you didn't know and hope that they would find you credible.
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Yeah.
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I was in the administration building in a conference room table with all these important people.
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I had no idea who they were.
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Um now I work for those people and I know they're good people, but at the time I I didn't know what I was doing, what I'd gotten myself to have to do.
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At that time in your life, would you have ever imagined in a million years that you would be the person on the other side of the table someday?
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No, not at all.
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Uh it was many years later before I really recognized that this was even a career opportunity.
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Um and at that moment, no, I've never thought that I mean a function to do.
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We we brought you on to talk about something specific, but I already feel like hijacking it for just a minute.
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Yeah, that's fine.
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I um Kurt and I both worked uh in a system where we implemented what you might remember as the UNLV model of community standards in residence, which was also a relational governance model where students met once a week on their floor and they made decisions and held each other accountable for how they wanted to be as a community.
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It sounds like you are trying to keep that practice going, but I can tell you I've talked about on this show, that's a hard sell these days.
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It is, yeah.
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I think students don't want to they don't want to hold their neighbors accountable and they don't want to turn somebody into something.
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I I think those are hard conversations.
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What we have done is not so much to put students in that position, but to focus on it in a very short time, uh, knowing students well and helping them know everyone around them.
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And the idea being that a neighbor will interact and a community that cares about each other is what's what we do do things that would be infringe upon each other, right?
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When you know your neighbors and you like them, you're not gonna [indistinguishable] something.
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Um we talk about an i I share a pick and a boss we don't do room condition reports and we all check because we don't have problems with damage and uh I really believe it's because of how we approach this relationship building us good students and students with each other.
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Um and it and it works really well.
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Was that a model that you created or that you adopted from someplace else?
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Um, very good question.
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It's something we created, but it was very much adapted from a model that we found in Shreveport, Louisiana, called Community Renewal International.
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And it was an alum, a former pastor, who knew our Vice President for Student Affairs. And our VP said, let's you need to go out, you see what they're doing there.
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And we went, and they essentially this community created between people, and they would move into neighborhoods, high crime, poverty, um poor educational status, but center of mobile homeownership, and they would literally move into a neighborhood build a house, and they paid people to just get to know neighbors and help neighbors get to know each other.
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And we and we and we were like, wait a minute, that's kinda like what you did before.
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Now, we didn't have poor impoverished neighborhoods we have nice residence halls.
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But they weren't connected, they weren't, but we might damage we had students who recorded the area for police, and it was just it wasn't as positive and I knew it could be.
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And so we, I, I I say myself and many other team members that I networked to me created a model and said we're gonna call it net and took us a couple years of eating and trying.
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Um that the model was there we've got to know, connect and empower students.
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And so our RAs, we tell them your job is to know students, care about them and help them know and care about each other.
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That's about it.
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They still do rounds, you still got desk hours, they do programs, uh, but even in the even the program, if with focus, we've all like just bring people together to know each other and care about each other.
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So it's everything we do.
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I love that this conversation is happening, I think across higher education, because uh we talk a lot about fostering student belonging uh in a community college.
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We don't have a residential component, but when you look at some of the news nationwide about this epidemic of loneliness that's happening right now, uh it is nice to see that higher education is helping to address and and fill that void.
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I saw some statistics about uh just basic socialization is down significantly.
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People um participating in social connection activities is down significantly over the past 20 years.
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So the fact that higher education can help fill that void is I think amazing.
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Yeah.
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You're exactly right.
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And uh you might be familiar with there is uh that used to be called educational benchmarking, not use called Sky Factor, they do need residential satisfaction so both staying new on them since I've been playing items.
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And we participate on that survey, so we see how we benchmark the base to over 300 other schools.
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And round about 2014, the keyboard that DBI called me, and they said, Hey Craig, we want to talk to you about tier owner options.
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And I said, okay, yeah, what about it?
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He said, well we've been trapping this data, cost of punching, long-to-tuning students are reporting lessons of satisfaction to beginner options to their peers, and less was awesome.
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And uh, but you are training you opposite directions.
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But like you're an outlier, what are you doing?
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Why are you different?
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And I was like, Oh, we got a book of model, no symbols talked about it.
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And and I very much believe that our students across the board report they are wildly satisfied that their residence hall contributes to their interactions with their peers.
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And you're right, this is something that students crave.
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But not everybody has, and I think as higher ed professionals, we all want students to interact with each other.
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But we don't necessarily have a good systematic intentional way and what we've done in our model is say we're gonna create that very systematic and intential model for building these relationships and agreed in our communities support on each other.
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How many times do we say on here, like, it's just about the relationship?
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No matter what the topic is for that given week, it's always just about the relationship.
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But that's an intentional thing.
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Oh, I'm so glad.
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I am so glad.
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As people are jumping ship from higher education, Craig, I'm glad that you are not not just sticking around, making it better.
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That's that's the dream.
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Yeah.
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I um I asked heard about inviting you uh because you experienced something maybe the most awful experience I know of of a colleague having to deal with uh back in 2000.
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So that was not long after I would have met you.
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Um you were at Seton Hall when you all had a a residential fire that killed three students and injured dozens more.
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Yeah.
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Um was started by students who started a fire as a prank with no intent to to do harm.
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Um and I I went to a workshop that you did in the aftermath of that to help us prepare for a, you know, God forbid, crisis on our campus.
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So I wanted to talk to you about first of all, the trend we're seeing among leadership in higher education where everything is defined as a crisis and very few things really are a crisis, and you've seen a crisis up up close.
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Um so I'd imagine even 26 years later, it's hard to talk about, but I think there's still so many lessons for us to learn.
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Yeah, I'm afraid.
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Um so uh is there anything so we know like the newspaper version of the story, but can you tell us what it was like to be on the ground there working there and the things that your staff had to deal with?
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Yeah.
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I think uh the thing that I always when I tell people about it, but I it always starts me at 4:30 in the morning getting a phone call.
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You know, we all um when you go into this field and you're on call, you expect that and you train for what you're gonna have to do.
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But you don't ever really think you're gonna get that kind of call.
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And I remember when I when I got that call from my hall director, um she was a wonderful hall director, but at times she got a little excited about things.
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But I could tell what she called me and said "Craig there was a fire," and I listened to her.
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I said, okay, and I asked her some questions when I'd hung up, my wife now awake.
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And she said, What is it?
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I said, Well, it was a fire, but I said, "It doesn't sound good." And so I called back to campus and caught the public safety.
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And they said, Yeah, and the fire department's on the way.
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Um the building was evacuating.
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And right away I I was like, I could just I knew something wasn't right, and so I called one of my staff and no said, um hey, we need to start getting people to campus.
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I got a phone call then like one after another after an other from our associate vice president of, Bob Myer, and talked to Bob who said "Hey, Craig, this isn't good," yeah, get everybody here as fast as you can.
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And so I I've remember driving to campus it was a very surreal thing.
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I would slow down at red lights and it just keep going.
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And I got the campus and it was like something we can see on television is what I thought of maybe in a movie or something.
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All these helicopters up ahead lights.
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All kinds of lights.
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Um so it pretty quick I knew I was going into something that must not be too good.
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Uh the immediate response was No, it was kind of a blur for a while.
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I the first thing I really remember around 6 or 7 in the morning you were all sitting in a conference room of university leaders.
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And uh you're all getting debriefed from the fire department and knew at that point we knew the dual fatalities.
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Um that hard to hear.
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Um and then it is immediately we'd be asked questions about you know how do we evacuate and what we wanna be doing.
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Um After getting out of that meeting, my first job then was to go.
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We were already getting lots of phone calls and parents who would just showing up on campus.
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And this is before Twitter and social media and but there were cell phones.
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And it was all over the morning news we instantly it was on the 6:00 news, 7:00 news.
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And so, parents of students are just driving to campus.
00:21:59.680 --> 00:22:02.160
Because they couldn't reach their kids.
00:22:02.160 --> 00:22:05.519
Not all of them even had cell phones at that point.
00:22:05.519 --> 00:22:25.759
And uh and my first goal is was to just touch base with my staff, the staff we worked [indistinguishable] um some of them or I think they were in shock, uh, and helping them, getting them to save place with the people with to help them.
00:22:25.759 --> 00:22:52.720
Um and then we kind of s yeah, by mid-morning press conference, um our president at the time spoke I thought this message was was right on he basically said right now, we just experienced a terrible tragedy, and our only focus our only priority is to take care of our students and their families.
00:22:52.720 --> 00:22:55.359
And so that was our job.
00:22:55.359 --> 00:22:58.319
We were told to be whatever.
00:22:58.319 --> 00:23:02.160
For some people it meant walking to be a cafeteria and just talk to student.
00:23:03.039 --> 00:23:15.680
For some of us it was planning for, uh people who needed toiletries or had to get in to get medicines and they was just started dividing things up and our vice president.
00:23:15.680 --> 00:23:36.960
I think for this very skilled leader, and quickly identified if this was much bigger than a housing issue and much bigger than any one office to [indistinguishable], and that she started organizing all this team of student affairs and giving us different responsibilities, for uh helping, and a short [indistinguishable] .
00:23:48.799 --> 00:23:50.799
Sorry, I'm just digesting all this.
00:23:50.799 --> 00:23:51.759
Yeah.
00:23:52.880 --> 00:24:00.160
I have um I uh used to teach a class um for doctoral students.
00:24:00.160 --> 00:24:24.720
It was a crisis communication class, and one of the activities was um that they would do a group project, they would research a um, and I taught this for three years in a row, um, research, find a crisis that happened in higher education, and look at the communication that happened around it and dissect it, what went well, what didn't go well.
00:24:24.720 --> 00:24:31.359
And every year this was uh a group found this and picked it.
00:24:31.359 --> 00:24:58.799
And I think it was so difficult for some of them to wrap their heads around the fact that this happened before social media and uh their inability to find um a lot of communication around it led them to believe that the communication had not been good uh because they couldn't go in and find a social media post or um a video about it.
00:24:58.799 --> 00:25:10.799
It was really just uh, to your point, what the uh university president had shared and also uh what local news media um had had covered.
00:25:10.799 --> 00:25:19.519
So for me, it was an opportunity to help people understand how um reporting and communication shift across time.
00:25:19.519 --> 00:25:24.160
And just because they don't have access to something doesn't mean it didn't happen.
00:25:24.160 --> 00:25:37.279
Um so all that to say, I think, you know, in any tragedy, I think the hope is that you can learn from it and um have it inform how you move forward.
00:25:37.279 --> 00:25:48.319
And you know, 20 plus years later, this is still something that um students are finding and using as a learning example and talking about.
00:25:48.720 --> 00:25:49.279
Yeah.
00:25:49.279 --> 00:25:51.519
I think that you're right.
00:25:51.519 --> 00:25:53.200
It was very different.
00:25:53.200 --> 00:26:07.119
And I I can imagine that other than some uh video, maybe from local media or newspaper clippings, you wouldn't find a lot because they're mostly in other media outlets.
00:26:07.119 --> 00:26:24.799
Um I think what I what I remember learning, and I was fortunate that the person on our campus was kind of like the charge of public relations, um, was actually my wife worked for her and university advancement.
00:26:25.279 --> 00:26:29.519
Um my wife was a writer and editor for the university magazine.
00:26:29.519 --> 00:26:59.680
And the person being became our spokesperson along with uh her name is, Lisa and Lisa had I think understood that uh in a media has a story they want to tell, and what she would say is, "We have to share our story and then answer questions." But every time you get a question, she's like, you always want to repeat your message.
00:26:59.680 --> 00:27:04.400
And that was something I've learned in beginning, any kind of student issue, you know.
00:27:04.400 --> 00:27:08.000
But I get asked now about triples and overcounting.
00:27:08.000 --> 00:27:14.880
I always start with, you know, yes, you know, we acknowledge it, and then yes, these are some of the things we're doing.
00:27:15.200 --> 00:27:22.160
And now let me tell you about the great relationships you know there was, and I come right back to our message and our story.
00:27:22.160 --> 00:27:31.200
And I think that you all think you'd a lot of credit for how we've handled that part of uh message and adapting in that era.
00:27:31.200 --> 00:27:48.079
Uh probably harder to evaluate that now, but in that time period, um we have received a lot of praise from families, uh, from uh respective students and others that we were very open and transparent.
00:27:48.079 --> 00:27:53.759
And that when we said that our priority was caring for students, we meant it.
00:27:53.759 --> 00:27:59.839
And that's the other thing when your action hasn't backed up when we say, and our actions did.
00:27:59.839 --> 00:28:03.039
And I think I attribute a lot of that to the leadership.
00:28:04.240 --> 00:28:06.079
They understood what was our priority.
00:28:08.319 --> 00:28:18.799
I think uh the phrase um driving the narrative or you know, pushing a narrative, I think there is a negative connotation to it.
00:28:18.799 --> 00:28:27.039
But I think at the end of the day, um what it boils down to is if you don't share the the news needs to sell.
00:28:27.039 --> 00:28:34.400
They're they're getting ads based on clicks, they want you know a viral moment that they're sharing.
00:28:34.400 --> 00:28:38.960
Um and what you share with the news media is going to be different.
00:28:38.960 --> 00:28:41.759
There's never going to be one message.
00:28:41.759 --> 00:28:43.519
What do your students need?
00:28:43.519 --> 00:28:45.039
What do your employees need?
00:28:45.039 --> 00:28:46.559
What do your families need?
00:28:46.559 --> 00:28:48.720
And what does the public need to know?
00:28:48.720 --> 00:28:51.119
The facts are probably all the same.
00:28:51.119 --> 00:28:56.319
How you package them is going to need to be different based on the population that you're working with.
00:28:56.319 --> 00:29:03.359
So it is, I think, a lot more complicated than just um standing in front of a press conference.
00:29:03.359 --> 00:29:13.279
There's a lot of work that goes into the back end of that to make sure that people are taken care of and that they receive the information because if they don't, then it can become a crisis.
00:29:13.279 --> 00:29:21.519
Uh, you know, the story becomes not about the thing that happened, but how the college or university handled it or mishandled it.
00:29:21.519 --> 00:29:25.920
Um, and that could be the situation or the communication around it, unfortunately.
00:29:26.160 --> 00:29:27.359
Yeah, absolutely.
00:29:27.359 --> 00:29:28.160
Yeah.
00:29:28.160 --> 00:29:39.680
And again, I think what I was taught, and I think what we tried to do was um to always answer the questions too.
00:29:39.680 --> 00:29:43.440
When they ask a question, we can't not answer them.
00:29:43.440 --> 00:29:47.920
Um you say there's limits sometimes as to what people say.
00:29:47.920 --> 00:29:57.599
But I think today I often, even now, I get frustrated with some uh things I hear on our campus where we just don't answer something.
00:29:57.599 --> 00:30:01.759
And I'm like, if you won't answer it, then I'm filling in the blanks until they answer it.
00:30:02.880 --> 00:30:09.359
So we have to answer the question, but then you can what do you want to get people to learn about whatever it's going about?
00:30:10.559 --> 00:30:30.480
You know, and I think if part of our um value proposition is that we are a caring institution, um, that means being transparent, even if and communicating with people, saying that, you know, the no comment or we're not going to share that, there may be a very good reason sometimes.
00:30:30.480 --> 00:30:33.440
Uh, but you've got to say we can't share that right now because of X.
00:30:33.440 --> 00:30:42.480
You can't just say we're not telling you, uh, because it it conflicts with that value of belonging and caring.
00:30:42.799 --> 00:30:43.119
Right.
00:30:43.119 --> 00:30:44.240
Absolutely.
00:30:44.559 --> 00:30:56.720
Um You took what was probably the worst thing that ever happened in your career and used it as an opportunity to teach us um lessons that you had learned.
00:30:56.720 --> 00:31:06.799
So the one you just said was know your message and stay on message, which now I hear all the time on TV or if it stay on message.
00:31:06.799 --> 00:31:14.400
And I had probably heard it hundreds of times before that, but until your workshop, I it wasn't part of me.
00:31:14.400 --> 00:31:22.319
But the second thing was learning to stay off the record that you can talk to reporters.
00:31:22.319 --> 00:31:36.079
Um, I loved having student journalists in my office and know that I could just say off the record, here are some things that are happening behind the scenes, and I am entrusting you with this information.
00:31:36.079 --> 00:31:39.119
And when it can be public, I will let you know.
00:31:39.119 --> 00:31:44.960
But right now I'm just sharing, you know, we're building a relationship of trust.
00:31:44.960 --> 00:31:50.240
And I'm gonna trust you with some details that we're not sharing publicly.
00:31:50.240 --> 00:32:03.759
And if I hadn't learned that from you, I think I might be like colleagues I have that just have a they will ghost uh requests for interviews or requests for quotes.
00:32:03.759 --> 00:32:12.240
And I feel like you armed me with an ability to be transparent that I I hadn't had before.
00:32:12.640 --> 00:32:13.839
Yeah, I appreciate that.
00:32:13.839 --> 00:32:19.519
I mean, like I said, I I learned a lot from the people who helped train me.
00:32:19.519 --> 00:32:23.839
I can't remember if I even if I did that session with Lisa.
00:32:23.839 --> 00:32:29.519
There was one that I brought, she was with me uh at MACUHO that we presented together.
00:32:29.519 --> 00:32:33.119
But um there were many things I learned.
00:32:33.119 --> 00:32:35.200
I I I still try to learn those.
00:32:35.200 --> 00:32:44.480
And and and about the part about being prepared is very important, because she would tell us in subsequent years of training.
00:32:44.480 --> 00:32:52.000
Um that even when the student reporter comes in, we need to quiet our thoughts for at least five minutes prior.
00:32:52.000 --> 00:32:56.559
And know what is it that they want to talk about and what is it that I would want one to feel.
00:32:56.559 --> 00:33:24.079
And I try to remember that even today, and you know I need the students because uh the truth is that today, um, there are all kinds of media outposts that will follow student media, looking for something that can be scandal ous and they can take and blow up and be the story and so e ven when we're talking to students, um maybe the exception being the ones was good to only [indistinguishable].
00:33:25.440 --> 00:33:37.440
But if it's hidden in student media somewhere, there are many other news outlets that are looking at that, and story leaks and so, it is so important what we think about what we want to sell.
00:33:42.079 --> 00:33:57.279
As I was reading the 25-year retrospective uh information from Seton Hall, um there were stories about the two young men that um eventually took responsibility for starting the fire.
00:33:57.279 --> 00:33:58.000
Uh-huh.
00:33:58.000 --> 00:34:06.000
And I'm sure my thoughts 20 years ago would be different from now.
00:34:06.000 --> 00:34:09.119
Because now they break my heart.
00:34:09.119 --> 00:34:16.960
Um, I saw a quote from a faculty member that said, I don't know why they would have not come forward right away.
00:34:16.960 --> 00:34:25.440
And I was thinking, I I know why I can think of a hundred reasons why they wouldn't have come forward right away.
00:34:25.440 --> 00:34:38.079
Um and now I I wonder about them and I don't want that to diminish the pain that other people have gone through.
00:34:38.079 --> 00:34:49.599
But um were you part of any disciplinary process or how how do you do something that makes sense in a situation like that?
00:34:50.400 --> 00:34:51.920
That process, no.
00:34:51.920 --> 00:35:00.719
That honestly was it was several years after the fire before that trial.
00:35:00.719 --> 00:35:08.719
Um they the investigation I wanna say it went on at least to 2003 or 2004.
00:35:10.000 --> 00:35:16.960
Um, because I can remember I had already moved here in 2005.
00:35:16.960 --> 00:35:29.840
Because when the trial was going on, and so I I actually was asked at one point it to write a statement for when some of the people we were found guilty.....
00:35:30.639 --> 00:35:41.920
Sentencing statements. Um that was after I'd left, so that process went on a long long time and it was n't something I was a part of.
00:35:46.480 --> 00:35:47.760
I I have a job now.
00:35:47.760 --> 00:35:55.199
I was sort of retired out of full-time work, and I have a sweet little position where all I do is student conduct.
00:35:55.199 --> 00:35:59.280
It's the greatest job in the whole world.
00:35:59.280 --> 00:36:12.960
And I get to hear, I mean, back to like the easiest of cases of stuff that's found during the health and safety checks or move in, move out checks.
00:36:12.960 --> 00:36:33.199
And um it's I my style tends to be to end meetings saying to students, like, I'm gonna trust you, like you're gonna make decisions, you're gonna be around substances and you're gonna make adult decisions about whether you want to try it or not, and where and when, and if.
00:36:33.199 --> 00:36:39.119
And the only thing that I'm not like that for is fire.
00:36:39.119 --> 00:36:45.039
Um, the unlit candles, the covered smoke detector.
00:36:45.039 --> 00:36:59.440
Um and I'm always trying to find that sweet spot because your experience still lives with everybody I think that has ever read about it, seen it.
00:36:59.440 --> 00:37:13.039
Um, and I'm always trying to find that sweet spot of not like you're gonna start a fire and kill people, but also to really instill like a reality for them.
00:37:13.039 --> 00:37:17.920
Like you do not want like this must never happen again.
00:37:18.239 --> 00:37:52.159
And I I wonder how did you internalize that stuff and yeah, I well I I very much believe that after, you know, we we learned a lot uh about what we had, about what others perceived we had done wrong, about how we did uh health and safety inspections, or how we even evacuated and practiced evacuating, um, or things that we got to change.
00:37:52.159 --> 00:38:02.159
Um But I think the most uh thing that stuck with me the most great that I internalized right away was just the seriousness of alarms.
00:38:02.800 --> 00:38:07.280
And the seriousness and knowing how to be safe.
00:38:07.280 --> 00:38:28.639
Um, because uh those students who were injured uh can't say for sure how the students who were killed, but uh in many instances we know from talking students that they turned and walked directly towards the fire when they could have gone an opposite direction.
00:38:28.639 --> 00:38:34.639
Um there were many who delayed their reaction because they didn't take it seriously.
00:38:34.639 --> 00:38:40.960
And so uh to this day, in fact.
00:38:40.960 --> 00:38:47.039
Two nights ago, I was on campus for fire girls.
00:38:47.039 --> 00:38:56.000
I still come to campus and watch our halls and I'm for practices for Uh at least a few days a year I won't come in for every one.
00:38:56.000 --> 00:39:03.360
But I still come in and watch and I observe Uh because it's that important.
00:39:03.360 --> 00:39:14.960
And so I think I learned a lot and the thing I internalize first was how important, it was to take places in serious faith, and I have a plan where what we're gonna do in an emergency.
00:39:14.960 --> 00:39:28.320
Uh even in my most personal life, um, I've been in hotels and restaurants where an alarm would go off when I look at my why I know where the exit is, I'm like "Let's go," Let's start walking.
00:39:28.320 --> 00:39:30.800
Everybody else is just ho hum ho hum.
00:39:30.800 --> 00:39:32.480
And I'm like, no no no, Let's not...
00:39:33.440 --> 00:39:34.719
with the situation.
00:39:34.719 --> 00:39:37.519
Uh I was recently up.
00:39:37.519 --> 00:39:43.280
In June was at a hotel, and the hotel had an alarm at like 11 o'clock at night.
00:39:43.280 --> 00:39:44.480
I walked out.
00:39:44.480 --> 00:39:47.840
And was walking, and there were people walking toward the elevator.
00:39:48.559 --> 00:39:51.840
I just looked the moment I said "What are you doing? The stairs are right there.
00:39:52.320 --> 00:39:57.039
And I as I got outside, I thought, oh, I guess that I was not a very nice person.
00:39:57.039 --> 00:39:59.920
But I'm proud.
00:39:59.920 --> 00:40:13.199
It just was uh what reaction for me when I well, I knew it was like a thing to be worried about, but uh, I was miffed at them that they would be walking to go get the elevator.
00:40:14.239 --> 00:40:20.320
I'm like "What are you doing?" Uh so I think I internalized that for sure.
00:40:20.320 --> 00:40:29.440
Uh and then I'm paying attention to all the aspects of part of safety to me, oh that's something that we would have a [indistinguishable] .
00:40:30.320 --> 00:40:34.320
Um I think it's something I write about present on.
00:40:35.039 --> 00:40:38.480
Uh and I did fortunately.
00:40:38.480 --> 00:40:49.280
A big thing and came from the fire was the lack of uh sprinkler system convinced in the build up this and of course with legislation passed, but I didn't have retrofit.
00:40:49.840 --> 00:40:53.840
Today and today's construction and it's required by [indistinguishable].
00:40:56.000 --> 00:41:11.599
The good news is, uh the colleges and universities is that hopefully, what happened at Seton Hall 26 years ago is not something that should likely happen on a campus, simply because of the facilities.
00:41:11.599 --> 00:41:16.719
But the facilities alone, shout out to my are not going to save everyone.
00:41:16.719 --> 00:41:22.639
Uh, or help prevent injury, if people don't care about community, a body more.
00:41:22.639 --> 00:41:23.280
[indistinguishable] .
00:41:33.280 --> 00:41:43.199
I'd say your um demeanor at the hotel may not have been friendly, but I would also call it a kindness to keep the people off the elevator.
00:41:43.599 --> 00:41:44.880
That's how I'll look at it.
00:41:45.599 --> 00:41:46.239
Yeah.
00:41:46.239 --> 00:41:52.960
Uh I'm gonna go back to relationship again.
00:41:52.960 --> 00:42:07.199
Uh my current campus last year had an epidemic of students in a particular one of our biggest buildings, uh stealing directional signs, like exit signs in buildings.
00:42:07.199 --> 00:42:14.960
And the default reaction, of course, is polices and threats to students.
00:42:14.960 --> 00:42:39.599
And I'm gonna double down this year, like I think relationships are like appealing to people about safety, and we don't want first responders coming into a building and not knowing how to find the exit doors and or people not being able to find the exit in a smoky hallway.
00:42:39.599 --> 00:42:48.159
Uh, but the more they care about each other, the the signs aren't gonna be stolen.
00:42:48.639 --> 00:42:50.320
I I absolutely agree with that.
00:42:50.320 --> 00:42:55.039
We that was one of the bigger problems, you know, prior our model when I first got here.
00:42:55.039 --> 00:43:00.639
Um, exit signs apparently were like a trophy thing to knock down.
00:43:00.639 --> 00:43:34.239
Um we had constant problems, in our buildings um that and and they also damaged water fountains but um I I I agree that things happen, but when they care about each other they care about [indistinguishable] , uh that included stops, plus it becomes such a uh becomes so unaccepted by them that it it makes the person who might do it question themselves and stop.
00:43:38.239 --> 00:43:42.880
That reminds me of when we did community standards, uh the self-governance model.
00:43:42.880 --> 00:43:47.679
Uh one of our the issues that we were dealing with was pulled fire alarms.
00:43:47.920 --> 00:43:48.320
Yep.
00:43:48.719 --> 00:44:11.199
Uh there was a tradition the night before the MCAT exam that they would pull alarms, and um those all went away when w students had community uh accountability in positive and yeah, it it's all in positive ways, whether it's because of problems or just out of love.
00:44:11.199 --> 00:44:22.559
Like you care, you're worried about a friend, but things like damaged um vending machines, furniture being thrown out windows, but the big one was the fire alarms.
00:44:23.519 --> 00:44:30.719
One of my stories that was back to my very first full-spent professional job at the University of Arizona.
00:44:30.719 --> 00:44:40.880
I worked in a high rise nine- story building, and it had a reputation as well and things you got to think about.
00:44:40.880 --> 00:44:47.360
And so I won't say it was uh And I was determined that we could change that.
00:44:47.360 --> 00:44:52.079
And so same thing to the This is gonna be known as the fun place to be.
00:44:54.559 --> 00:44:59.039
I didn't know I was doing what I just do today, but that was my approach.
00:44:59.039 --> 00:45:04.480
And the final one started happening because it was traditionally what's was supposed to happen here.
00:45:04.480 --> 00:45:13.440
And students started getting very frustrated because they liked to go out at one in the morning and play together two in the morning and get a four in the morning.
00:45:13.440 --> 00:45:20.079
And I remember talking to students and I, uh addressing them and saying, You are the ones who can stop this.
00:45:23.039 --> 00:45:28.800
You decide because it's no longer accepted then you can stop this.
00:45:28.800 --> 00:45:42.880
And a lot of you just looked at me and said "We need more RAs, why aren't police here?" and I'm like "That's not gonna do it." You all can do this because I know somebody knows who's doing that.
00:45:42.880 --> 00:45:48.320
And you can stop this and you all decide that this is no longer so much of fun.
00:45:48.320 --> 00:46:03.679
And sure enough, uh up when a week or two later, I was in my apartment and I heard this noise and I thought, they know what's happened, and I thought it was the firewall.
00:46:03.679 --> 00:46:11.360
But the strobe wasn't going on, and so I walked out of my apartment, and I realized that's not the alarm, but I could hear that noise.
00:46:11.360 --> 00:46:17.840
And then I walked outside, and I see a group of about 20 students.
00:46:17.840 --> 00:46:26.000
And they have a kid sitting in a chair and being quite literally duct taped to that chair.
00:46:26.000 --> 00:46:28.800
And they're carrying them, making the noise.
00:46:29.360 --> 00:46:32.320
Because they found out you know who pulled the alarm.
00:46:32.320 --> 00:46:34.719
They carried them out.
00:46:34.719 --> 00:46:38.800
I see the police, the police pull up to like the pit what's gone out.
00:46:38.800 --> 00:46:47.119
I'm like, well, got some students figured out to who the alarm puller and they told us, but taking them up to the duck pond and they're going to dunk him.
00:46:48.239 --> 00:46:54.639
And they walked up a block or two, and the police were like, "We'll just follow along and make sure no one gets hurt." Awesome.
00:46:54.639 --> 00:47:00.880
And so the police literally followed this group of students making that noise up the sidewalk what they dunked the kid in.
00:47:00.880 --> 00:47:06.480
And then the police escorted him out of the place and down to the station, and he was suspended.
00:47:06.480 --> 00:47:10.159
But um there were no more alarms after.
00:47:11.679 --> 00:47:16.960
I don't know if I have a strong opinion about vigilante justice, but that uh that made me happy.
00:47:17.360 --> 00:47:20.079
It was, it was I knew, and I and I did.
00:47:20.239 --> 00:47:21.199
I would talk to police.
00:47:21.199 --> 00:47:25.440
I'm like, we need people like, well, we'll we'll make sure no one gets hurt.
00:47:25.440 --> 00:47:27.840
And obviously that that is an issue.
00:47:28.239 --> 00:47:32.960
I am I would say in general not uh let's go and be vigilante as about stuff.
00:47:32.960 --> 00:47:37.840
But what it illustrated in the bigger sense for me was that the students had had enough.
00:47:38.719 --> 00:47:40.559
And they said, we'll no longer go.
00:47:40.559 --> 00:47:44.239
We don't want this, we don't want this. This is not who we want to be in our hall.
00:47:44.239 --> 00:47:48.719
And they took care of it and it never happened again.
00:47:50.000 --> 00:47:55.599
Our field has now stepped into restorative practice as part of our vocabulary.
00:47:55.599 --> 00:48:08.800
But you are talking about *transformative* uh justice, it's called when you don't need authorities anymore because people are taking care of their own stuff.
00:48:08.800 --> 00:48:11.840
And maybe it's a little rough around the edges.
00:48:12.079 --> 00:48:12.639
Yeah.
00:48:12.960 --> 00:48:16.880
But they were passionate about safety.
00:48:16.880 --> 00:48:22.480
They weren't and they weren't calling somebody else in to fix it for them.
00:48:22.480 --> 00:48:31.679
Craig, can you say one more time what the name of the program was that you modeled your program after the one in New Orleans?
00:48:32.159 --> 00:48:35.360
So, yeah, the one in New York, uh it was Shreveport Louisiana.
00:48:35.679 --> 00:48:36.800
Oh, Shreveport.
00:48:37.039 --> 00:48:41.119
Yeah, that's called Community Renewal International, CRI.
00:48:41.119 --> 00:48:44.159
And I encourage anyone to go look it up.
00:48:44.159 --> 00:48:47.840
It's an amazing program, and it's it's now all over the country.
00:48:47.840 --> 00:48:50.639
They have offices in DC and other places.
00:48:50.639 --> 00:48:56.239
Um, but our model is called K CE, uh, which is knowing, connecting, empowering.
00:48:56.880 --> 00:49:06.639
And we very much believe we've actually hosted um the last two years a symposium on and invited people to come learn about our model.
00:49:06.639 --> 00:49:10.639
And we've had institutions, uh, thirty institutions each year.
00:49:10.639 --> 00:49:21.760
From all over the country come and learn about our model so, um, we would love for it to become a standard practice in student housing everywhere.
00:49:21.760 --> 00:49:24.400
Uh because it works.
00:49:24.400 --> 00:49:29.280
And because um staff love it, and the students love it.
00:49:29.280 --> 00:49:36.480
Um they're they're building and creating new senses of belonging new communities of caring to each other [indistinguishable] .
00:49:42.480 --> 00:49:43.840
I am on board.
00:49:43.840 --> 00:49:48.079
I you're you're making my heart sing right now.
00:49:48.079 --> 00:49:54.639
I am going to look it up, and folks, I'm gonna put a link in our um podcast notes to that program.
00:49:54.639 --> 00:49:59.679
But also, Craig, if there's anything that you would want to send that I could link on.
00:49:59.679 --> 00:50:03.599
I'm just, Lord help me, gotten involved in local politics.
00:50:03.599 --> 00:50:04.239
Oh boy.
00:50:04.239 --> 00:50:08.880
And going to the the local council meeting each time.
00:50:08.880 --> 00:50:14.400
It's remarkable how similar the issues are to the things that students are dealing with.
00:50:14.400 --> 00:50:18.719
Like my neighbors are too noisy, and the council needs to fix it.
00:50:18.719 --> 00:50:21.280
The town needs to fix it for me.
00:50:21.280 --> 00:50:27.519
Your model could work for me on my campus and it could work for me in my own neighborhood.
00:50:27.519 --> 00:50:31.440
It's fortuitous that you are our guest today.
00:50:31.840 --> 00:50:33.039
Glad to do it.
00:50:33.360 --> 00:50:37.119
Craig, I know you've been part of a really innovative program too.
00:50:37.119 --> 00:50:47.760
I'm just gonna plant the seed and I will post a link to another podcast you were on once where I heard you talking about a program called Ship Shape Sherley that you did during COVID.
00:50:47.760 --> 00:50:53.679
And if you would be so kind as to come back someday, um I would love to, yeah.
00:50:53.679 --> 00:51:01.199
I'd like to keep this thread about the relationship model going, and for me, that was a really inspiring story.
00:51:01.519 --> 00:51:06.239
It's a it's a fun one and uh took me back to my in-hall.
00:51:06.239 --> 00:51:09.039
And uh I would love talk about it sometime.
00:51:09.599 --> 00:51:13.039
You know, I was thinking this was gonna be a gloom and doom episode.
00:51:13.039 --> 00:51:22.639
And I feel really excited and energized by what you shared and how we can actually use this to better ourselves.
00:51:22.960 --> 00:51:23.599
Thank you.
00:51:23.840 --> 00:51:27.519
Yeah, we don't read not on not on Ms. Behavior.
00:51:28.079 --> 00:51:30.639
No, you're doing magnificent work.
00:51:30.639 --> 00:51:32.880
I'm I'm so glad you're one of us.
00:51:32.880 --> 00:51:34.480
Any final thoughts, y'all?
00:51:34.800 --> 00:51:43.519
Well, I just want to thank those of you who are doing the conduct work because uh my goal is to try to keep them from getting to your office.
00:51:43.519 --> 00:51:55.760
But uh I often, when I sit down with my colleagues who work at our dean of students' office, um it's interesting how we all kind of find our place in time, right?
00:51:55.760 --> 00:51:57.920
And I'm not gonna talk to one of them.
00:51:58.480 --> 00:52:17.119
He said things like, I just can't imagine how you deal with sign it some parents and all these things we do all the time, and I said, Well, I can't imagine doing student conduct kinds of things, and and clearly what I realized in that conversation is that I want what I do, and he wants what he does.
00:52:17.119 --> 00:52:19.199
We all have a little bit of...
00:52:19.199 --> 00:52:20.960
he had worked in housing at one time, too.
00:52:20.960 --> 00:52:35.039
So he really what I was doing when I've done some conduct, so I know a little bit about what he does, but uh we all kind of find our path, and it's great to know that there are exceptional people in all these different parts of student affairs.
00:52:36.559 --> 00:52:44.320
And when you're all sharing a philosophy and a mission, it's all the same work, whatever you call it, and whatever the X's and O's are.
00:52:44.320 --> 00:52:47.599
We're all just doing the good work of students.
00:52:47.920 --> 00:52:49.039
Yeah, absolutely.
00:52:49.360 --> 00:52:50.800
That's a good place to leave.
00:52:50.800 --> 00:52:53.280
I sure thank everybody who's listening.
00:52:53.280 --> 00:52:57.280
We are still a fairly new, we just started season two of this podcast.
00:52:57.280 --> 00:53:05.840
If you enjoyed this episode, I hope you'll share it with a friend or leave us a review, send us a little fan mail to tell us that you're listening.
00:53:05.840 --> 00:53:08.800
We live for that stuff right now, we're still learning.
00:53:08.800 --> 00:53:11.920
Um, but we really thank you for being part of this today.
00:53:11.920 --> 00:53:13.280
And thank you, Craig Allen.
00:53:14.239 --> 00:53:15.280
Thank you, Colette.
00:53:15.280 --> 00:53:16.559
It was pleasure.
00:53:17.199 --> 00:53:23.360
Yes, Ms.
00:53:23.360 --> 00:53:27.599
Behavior is written and produced by Colette Shaw and Kurt Doan.
00:53:27.599 --> 00:53:33.760
Theme music was written and performed by Kevin McLeod from InCopitech.com.
00:53:33.760 --> 00:53:35.119
You can contact Ms.
00:53:35.119 --> 00:53:36.480
Behavior at Ms.
00:53:36.480 --> 00:53:39.199
Behavior College at gmail.com.
00:53:39.199 --> 00:53:43.519
That's M S BehaviorCollege at gmail.com.
00:00:09.759 --> 00:00:11.359
Hello and welcome to the Ms.
00:00:11.359 --> 00:00:12.640
Behavior Podcast.
00:00:12.640 --> 00:00:13.839
My name is Colette.
00:00:14.160 --> 00:00:14.720
And I'm Kurt.
00:00:14.960 --> 00:00:18.399
And we are here to talk about all things college student conduct.
00:00:18.399 --> 00:00:20.879
We welcome you and Kurt.
00:00:20.879 --> 00:00:24.719
I wanted to let you know we have nine people signed up for the Ms.
00:00:24.719 --> 00:00:28.640
Behavior Halloween Live Traitors event.
00:00:28.879 --> 00:00:30.160
Oh, that's exciting.
00:00:30.160 --> 00:00:32.960
Uh, are you prepared for the season premiere?
00:00:33.200 --> 00:00:33.840
I am.
00:00:33.840 --> 00:00:38.320
And you know I've been practicing with my Claudia Winkleman costume.
00:00:38.320 --> 00:00:40.880
We encourage costumes.
00:00:40.880 --> 00:00:43.759
How are you doing with your uh preparation?
00:00:44.479 --> 00:00:52.560
I uh I have a couple of options picked out, but uh my bandwidth right now is focused on a festival that we're planning.
00:00:52.560 --> 00:01:01.600
So I'm gonna devote immediately after that full creativity to this because folks, I've seen Colette's outfit and uh it's gonna be tough to top this.
00:01:01.759 --> 00:01:02.799
I'm feeling good.
00:01:02.799 --> 00:01:09.760
Uh if you're new to the podcast and don't know what we're talking about, we are going to host a live event on Zoom.
00:01:09.760 --> 00:01:17.760
It's sort of like a party game to give people and student conduct a little levity at a time of year that is often really hard.
00:01:17.760 --> 00:01:22.400
And so this is going to be Wednesday, October 28th at 7 p.m.
00:01:22.400 --> 00:01:23.760
It's free.
00:01:23.760 --> 00:01:33.920
And we are really gonna test people's student conduct skills of questioning, making decisions about who they think is lying and who's telling the truth.
00:01:33.920 --> 00:01:38.640
And if you've never seen the traders, the brand new season is starting.
00:01:38.640 --> 00:01:44.159
And also you don't have to have ever watched the traders to join in and play.
00:01:44.159 --> 00:01:44.959
It'll be fun.
00:01:45.280 --> 00:01:47.680
You mentioned uh a difficult time of year.
00:01:47.680 --> 00:02:06.000
You and I both grew up with parents who had uh who worked in education, and I feel like every year my parents had this sense of dread around Halloween because all the kids were about to be on a massive sugar high, and then following that, a massive sugar depletion of some kind.
00:02:06.000 --> 00:02:12.560
So there was like a solid two weeks of concerns about behavior and what that classroom environment was going to be like.
00:02:12.560 --> 00:02:15.599
And I'm guessing that doesn't change in higher education.
00:02:15.599 --> 00:02:22.080
Now that I think about it, that's sort of a crazy time to go out and party a little more than maybe you would normally party.
00:02:22.400 --> 00:02:29.120
Party and then judgment about costume decisions and the ramifications of the hat.
00:02:29.120 --> 00:02:31.120
I want to just send some kudos out.
00:02:31.120 --> 00:02:40.960
I have gotten word that one of our colleagues, Danielle Remigo McGrath, just defended successfully uh her dissertation about student conduct.
00:02:40.960 --> 00:02:46.159
And we just had an episode with Tiffany Shierling, who also just successfully defended.
00:02:46.159 --> 00:02:52.080
So thank you to all our researchers out there that are helping us be better practitioners.
00:02:52.400 --> 00:02:54.080
All these smarties out in the world.
00:02:54.080 --> 00:02:54.560
I love it.
00:02:54.800 --> 00:02:58.319
And one last information, Kurt, I don't know if you read.
00:02:58.319 --> 00:03:03.680
There's an update to the legal case we talked about recently at Florida International.
00:03:03.919 --> 00:03:04.719
I did not see it.
00:03:04.719 --> 00:03:05.199
Tell me.
00:03:05.439 --> 00:03:19.280
There's a judge who just made a quick decision that agreed with you that the FIU had been overreaching in their strict requirements regarding student protests.
00:03:19.280 --> 00:03:24.080
Uh, it looks like the students are on the winning side for right now, anyway.
00:03:24.080 --> 00:03:27.520
So I know you had very strong opinions.
00:03:27.520 --> 00:03:37.599
And listeners, if you have not listened to the episode about FIU and their protesters, I think that is a really good starter episode for you of misbehavior.
00:03:37.599 --> 00:03:41.759
But Kurt, I thought of you as I was reading the judge's decision.
00:03:42.159 --> 00:03:47.439
I I don't normally swear that much, uh, but that did piss me off quite a bit.
00:03:47.439 --> 00:03:50.240
So I'm happy for the outcome, absolutely.
00:03:50.240 --> 00:03:56.000
And I'm not gonna lie, I'm a little surprised that it went in favor of the students given the environment right now.
00:03:56.000 --> 00:03:58.800
So, but I'm I'm gonna mark that to read tonight.
00:03:58.800 --> 00:03:59.199
Thank you.
00:03:59.199 --> 00:03:59.919
Very nice.
00:04:00.080 --> 00:04:06.879
Well, as a the episode editor, I learned how to bleep for that episode.
00:04:06.879 --> 00:04:11.280
So you did me a favor in uh stretching my expertise.
00:04:11.599 --> 00:04:15.120
Is there an unredacted version uh that I can send to my dad?
00:04:15.520 --> 00:04:16.959
The director's cut.
00:04:16.959 --> 00:04:20.319
Yeah.
00:04:20.319 --> 00:04:22.720
Well, let's uh get right into.
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We have a uh guest today that I think um Craig Allen.
00:04:28.000 --> 00:04:34.160
I believe I met you at MACUHO in 1999.
00:04:34.160 --> 00:04:36.240
Is that possible?
00:04:36.560 --> 00:04:39.199
That that could be about right, yeah.
00:04:39.759 --> 00:04:54.079
So we usually, this is probably pretty lazy, but we have our guests introduced themselves so you can tell the world what you would want them to know about you, and then I'll do a little gushing about what I know about you.
00:04:54.480 --> 00:04:55.120
Thank you.
00:04:55.120 --> 00:04:58.480
So uh my name is Craig Allen.
00:04:58.480 --> 00:05:10.000
I am uh currently the executive director for housing and for me and sporty life of Texas Christian University, well known by TCU, uh to many outside of this area.
00:05:10.000 --> 00:05:13.120
But uh I've been here now for 21 years.
00:05:13.120 --> 00:05:20.000
Uh I came from the Mid-Atlantic region, Seton Hall, where it is when I was working there when I met you.
00:05:20.000 --> 00:05:24.079
And prior to that, I worked at the University of Arizona.
00:05:24.079 --> 00:05:33.680
Um I have three children, um, one still at TCU, the other ones graduated and are out adulting, which is exciting.
00:05:33.680 --> 00:05:53.040
And I am uh completed my doctorate about one year ago and studied uh the residential model to be used here at TCU, a model that we call KCE mean Know Connect and Empower, which was a relationship-based model for residential education.
00:05:53.040 --> 00:05:55.519
Um we've had great success.
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We haven't done our little icebreaker in a while.
00:05:59.439 --> 00:05:59.839
Oh, yeah.
00:05:59.839 --> 00:06:01.839
Yes.
00:06:01.839 --> 00:06:14.160
So, Craig, um we like to ask our guests, is there a time that you can tell us about that you got in trouble as an undergraduate student and and what did that look like?
00:06:14.480 --> 00:06:25.519
Oh one of the times I got in trouble was when a small metal trash can was tossed from a window of a study lounge.
00:06:25.519 --> 00:06:30.639
Turns out I actually didn't do it, but I was in the room with the person who did.
00:06:30.639 --> 00:06:34.959
And that person, an older student, I was a freshman at the time.
00:06:34.959 --> 00:06:44.879
He uh he tried to pin it on me because he was found but severely pits and unbound just from a six-story window.
00:06:44.879 --> 00:06:51.610
And interestingly enough, uh, I often sometimes tell that story about I'd had to go to a hear
00:06:51.610 --> 00:06:55.759
ing and testify that he was the one who did this.
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And uh, he was not too happy that I just wanted to share that he was responsible.
00:07:01.519 --> 00:07:14.560
And so, um I I learned how to have to stand up to yourself and and do what's right, even when prevent that you might face an from peers.
00:07:14.560 --> 00:07:21.759
Um now, that being said, I I can remember being in Marines where alcohol was present.
00:07:21.759 --> 00:07:28.800
I like to think that was big training to become an RA to know how students do made and how they tried to hide what they had.
00:07:28.800 --> 00:07:35.279
Um, but I also went to school and at the time the drinking age was still 18, because it was a very different kind of environment.
00:07:35.519 --> 00:07:37.759
Unless he was smallest than he is today.
00:07:40.480 --> 00:07:41.199
Good question.
00:07:41.199 --> 00:07:42.800
Hadn't thought about that in a while.
00:07:43.360 --> 00:07:50.959
So he threw the trash can and tried to pin it on you and then was uh not happy that you told the truth.
00:07:50.959 --> 00:07:52.000
That's correct.
00:07:52.000 --> 00:07:53.680
That's crazy.
00:07:53.680 --> 00:08:00.240
You know, I think we talk a lot about uh lessons learned outside of the classroom.
00:08:00.240 --> 00:08:06.079
Uh and I think this is a great example of you your takeaway was you had to learn how to stand up for yourself.
00:08:06.079 --> 00:08:09.839
Uh that's a tough choice at 18, I think.
00:08:10.160 --> 00:08:10.560
It was.
00:08:10.560 --> 00:08:15.759
Um now I was fortunate that there were other kids on my floor who didn't really like him anyway.
00:08:15.759 --> 00:08:21.439
I mean and so while he tried to be a little bit of a bully, I had other guys on the floor.
00:08:21.439 --> 00:08:26.800
I lived in the floor where I was born in a woman sixth freshman, and all the other guys were sophomores and seniors.
00:08:26.800 --> 00:08:30.079
And I was fortunate that they had got bot.
00:08:30.079 --> 00:08:39.200
And so I was never really worried that I was gonna be corporately I got but uh but he was definitely not having my student with quite a while.
00:08:39.200 --> 00:08:41.919
Wonder where he is now.
00:08:41.919 --> 00:08:43.039
I don't know.
00:08:43.039 --> 00:08:49.759
You know, the thing is that as the year went on, because he didn't get thrown out and he got in trouble, but he he wasn't expelled or anything like that.
00:08:49.759 --> 00:08:55.120
And probably by the middle of that semester, because he was really in the car.
00:08:55.120 --> 00:08:58.799
Um he and I would hang out and be things scary.
00:08:58.799 --> 00:09:03.279
So it's like we you moved past her, which is also I think a valuable lesson, right?
00:09:03.279 --> 00:09:03.679
Yeah.
00:09:03.679 --> 00:09:14.879
That you can have a really uncomfortable situation like that, but you can still move past it and and be friendly with someone and and ultimately that a fine move.
00:09:15.200 --> 00:09:23.360
I think about the way conduct officers too handle those cases when people are pointing the finger at each other and it's not always positive.
00:09:23.360 --> 00:09:33.120
So you went into that as a young person, really having to trust a system that you didn't know and hope that they would find you credible.
00:09:33.519 --> 00:09:34.080
Yeah.
00:09:34.080 --> 00:09:38.879
I was in the administration building in a conference room table with all these important people.
00:09:38.879 --> 00:09:40.240
I had no idea who they were.
00:09:40.240 --> 00:09:48.480
Um now I work for those people and I know they're good people, but at the time I I didn't know what I was doing, what I'd gotten myself to have to do.
00:09:49.360 --> 00:09:57.360
At that time in your life, would you have ever imagined in a million years that you would be the person on the other side of the table someday?
00:09:57.759 --> 00:09:58.879
No, not at all.
00:09:58.879 --> 00:10:05.679
Uh it was many years later before I really recognized that this was even a career opportunity.
00:10:05.679 --> 00:10:09.759
Um and at that moment, no, I've never thought that I mean a function to do.
00:10:10.879 --> 00:10:17.200
We we brought you on to talk about something specific, but I already feel like hijacking it for just a minute.
00:10:17.519 --> 00:10:18.399
Yeah, that's fine.
00:10:18.799 --> 00:10:45.200
I um Kurt and I both worked uh in a system where we implemented what you might remember as the UNLV model of community standards in residence, which was also a relational governance model where students met once a week on their floor and they made decisions and held each other accountable for how they wanted to be as a community.
00:10:45.200 --> 00:10:55.679
It sounds like you are trying to keep that practice going, but I can tell you I've talked about on this show, that's a hard sell these days.
00:10:56.240 --> 00:10:57.200
It is, yeah.
00:10:57.200 --> 00:11:06.799
I think students don't want to they don't want to hold their neighbors accountable and they don't want to turn somebody into something.
00:11:06.799 --> 00:11:09.360
I I think those are hard conversations.
00:11:09.360 --> 00:11:24.320
What we have done is not so much to put students in that position, but to focus on it in a very short time, uh, knowing students well and helping them know everyone around them.
00:11:24.320 --> 00:11:36.639
And the idea being that a neighbor will interact and a community that cares about each other is what's what we do do things that would be infringe upon each other, right?
00:11:36.639 --> 00:11:41.200
When you know your neighbors and you like them, you're not gonna [indistinguishable] something.
00:11:41.200 --> 00:12:05.120
Um we talk about an i I share a pick and a boss we don't do room condition reports and we all check because we don't have problems with damage and uh I really believe it's because of how we approach this relationship building us good students and students with each other.
00:12:05.120 --> 00:12:08.320
Um and it and it works really well.
00:12:09.360 --> 00:12:14.960
Was that a model that you created or that you adopted from someplace else?
00:12:15.360 --> 00:12:16.960
Um, very good question.
00:12:16.960 --> 00:12:27.279
It's something we created, but it was very much adapted from a model that we found in Shreveport, Louisiana, called Community Renewal International.
00:12:27.279 --> 00:12:39.120
And it was an alum, a former pastor, who knew our Vice President for Student Affairs. And our VP said, let's you need to go out, you see what they're doing there.
00:12:39.120 --> 00:13:04.080
And we went, and they essentially this community created between people, and they would move into neighborhoods, high crime, poverty, um poor educational status, but center of mobile homeownership, and they would literally move into a neighborhood build a house, and they paid people to just get to know neighbors and help neighbors get to know each other.
00:13:04.080 --> 00:13:09.200
And we and we and we were like, wait a minute, that's kinda like what you did before.
00:13:09.200 --> 00:13:13.200
Now, we didn't have poor impoverished neighborhoods we have nice residence halls.
00:13:13.759 --> 00:13:24.480
But they weren't connected, they weren't, but we might damage we had students who recorded the area for police, and it was just it wasn't as positive and I knew it could be.
00:13:24.480 --> 00:13:37.759
And so we, I, I I say myself and many other team members that I networked to me created a model and said we're gonna call it net and took us a couple years of eating and trying.
00:13:37.759 --> 00:13:42.159
Um that the model was there we've got to know, connect and empower students.
00:13:42.159 --> 00:13:49.679
And so our RAs, we tell them your job is to know students, care about them and help them know and care about each other.
00:13:49.679 --> 00:13:51.120
That's about it.
00:13:51.120 --> 00:14:03.519
They still do rounds, you still got desk hours, they do programs, uh, but even in the even the program, if with focus, we've all like just bring people together to know each other and care about each other.
00:14:03.519 --> 00:14:06.320
So it's everything we do.
00:14:07.200 --> 00:14:17.519
I love that this conversation is happening, I think across higher education, because uh we talk a lot about fostering student belonging uh in a community college.
00:14:17.519 --> 00:14:33.759
We don't have a residential component, but when you look at some of the news nationwide about this epidemic of loneliness that's happening right now, uh it is nice to see that higher education is helping to address and and fill that void.
00:14:33.759 --> 00:14:40.799
I saw some statistics about uh just basic socialization is down significantly.
00:14:40.799 --> 00:14:49.519
People um participating in social connection activities is down significantly over the past 20 years.
00:14:49.519 --> 00:14:55.519
So the fact that higher education can help fill that void is I think amazing.
00:14:55.759 --> 00:14:56.080
Yeah.
00:14:56.080 --> 00:14:57.440
You're exactly right.
00:14:57.440 --> 00:15:10.879
And uh you might be familiar with there is uh that used to be called educational benchmarking, not use called Sky Factor, they do need residential satisfaction so both staying new on them since I've been playing items.
00:15:10.879 --> 00:15:17.440
And we participate on that survey, so we see how we benchmark the base to over 300 other schools.
00:15:17.440 --> 00:15:27.120
And round about 2014, the keyboard that DBI called me, and they said, Hey Craig, we want to talk to you about tier owner options.
00:15:27.120 --> 00:15:29.600
And I said, okay, yeah, what about it?
00:15:29.600 --> 00:15:41.360
He said, well we've been trapping this data, cost of punching, long-to-tuning students are reporting lessons of satisfaction to beginner options to their peers, and less was awesome.
00:15:41.360 --> 00:15:45.120
And uh, but you are training you opposite directions.
00:15:45.120 --> 00:15:47.679
But like you're an outlier, what are you doing?
00:15:47.679 --> 00:15:48.879
Why are you different?
00:15:48.879 --> 00:15:53.039
And I was like, Oh, we got a book of model, no symbols talked about it.
00:15:53.039 --> 00:16:04.240
And and I very much believe that our students across the board report they are wildly satisfied that their residence hall contributes to their interactions with their peers.
00:16:04.240 --> 00:16:07.919
And you're right, this is something that students crave.
00:16:07.919 --> 00:16:15.519
But not everybody has, and I think as higher ed professionals, we all want students to interact with each other.
00:16:15.519 --> 00:16:32.240
But we don't necessarily have a good systematic intentional way and what we've done in our model is say we're gonna create that very systematic and intential model for building these relationships and agreed in our communities support on each other.
00:16:36.080 --> 00:16:40.080
How many times do we say on here, like, it's just about the relationship?
00:16:40.080 --> 00:16:46.720
No matter what the topic is for that given week, it's always just about the relationship.
00:16:46.720 --> 00:16:50.399
But that's an intentional thing.
00:16:50.399 --> 00:16:52.000
Oh, I'm so glad.
00:16:52.000 --> 00:16:53.039
I am so glad.
00:16:53.039 --> 00:17:02.159
As people are jumping ship from higher education, Craig, I'm glad that you are not not just sticking around, making it better.
00:17:03.279 --> 00:17:04.480
That's that's the dream.
00:17:05.599 --> 00:17:05.920
Yeah.
00:17:05.920 --> 00:17:26.880
I um I asked heard about inviting you uh because you experienced something maybe the most awful experience I know of of a colleague having to deal with uh back in 2000.
00:17:26.880 --> 00:17:30.000
So that was not long after I would have met you.
00:17:30.000 --> 00:17:42.000
Um you were at Seton Hall when you all had a a residential fire that killed three students and injured dozens more.
00:17:42.000 --> 00:17:42.480
Yeah.
00:17:42.480 --> 00:17:51.759
Um was started by students who started a fire as a prank with no intent to to do harm.
00:17:51.759 --> 00:18:06.720
Um and I I went to a workshop that you did in the aftermath of that to help us prepare for a, you know, God forbid, crisis on our campus.
00:18:06.720 --> 00:18:26.079
So I wanted to talk to you about first of all, the trend we're seeing among leadership in higher education where everything is defined as a crisis and very few things really are a crisis, and you've seen a crisis up up close.
00:18:26.079 --> 00:18:38.559
Um so I'd imagine even 26 years later, it's hard to talk about, but I think there's still so many lessons for us to learn.
00:18:40.319 --> 00:18:41.599
Yeah, I'm afraid.
00:18:43.440 --> 00:18:58.799
Um so uh is there anything so we know like the newspaper version of the story, but can you tell us what it was like to be on the ground there working there and the things that your staff had to deal with?
00:18:59.200 --> 00:18:59.759
Yeah.
00:18:59.759 --> 00:19:10.720
I think uh the thing that I always when I tell people about it, but I it always starts me at 4:30 in the morning getting a phone call.
00:19:10.720 --> 00:19:19.839
You know, we all um when you go into this field and you're on call, you expect that and you train for what you're gonna have to do.
00:19:19.839 --> 00:19:23.279
But you don't ever really think you're gonna get that kind of call.
00:19:23.279 --> 00:19:34.640
And I remember when I when I got that call from my hall director, um she was a wonderful hall director, but at times she got a little excited about things.
00:19:34.640 --> 00:19:39.599
But I could tell what she called me and said "Craig there was a fire," and I listened to her.
00:19:39.599 --> 00:19:46.079
I said, okay, and I asked her some questions when I'd hung up, my wife now awake.
00:19:46.079 --> 00:19:47.279
And she said, What is it?
00:19:47.279 --> 00:19:57.839
I said, Well, it was a fire, but I said, "It doesn't sound good." And so I called back to campus and caught the public safety.
00:19:57.839 --> 00:20:00.720
And they said, Yeah, and the fire department's on the way.
00:20:00.720 --> 00:20:04.160
Um the building was evacuating.
00:20:04.160 --> 00:20:14.720
And right away I I was like, I could just I knew something wasn't right, and so I called one of my staff and no said, um hey, we need to start getting people to campus.
00:20:14.720 --> 00:20:28.799
I got a phone call then like one after another after an other from our associate vice president of, Bob Myer, and talked to Bob who said "Hey, Craig, this isn't good," yeah, get everybody here as fast as you can.
00:20:28.799 --> 00:20:32.720
And so I I've remember driving to campus it was a very surreal thing.
00:20:32.720 --> 00:20:36.000
I would slow down at red lights and it just keep going.
00:20:36.000 --> 00:20:43.839
And I got the campus and it was like something we can see on television is what I thought of maybe in a movie or something.
00:20:43.839 --> 00:20:47.359
All these helicopters up ahead lights.
00:20:47.359 --> 00:20:49.599
All kinds of lights.
00:20:49.599 --> 00:20:56.960
Um so it pretty quick I knew I was going into something that must not be too good.
00:20:56.960 --> 00:21:07.039
Uh the immediate response was No, it was kind of a blur for a while.
00:21:07.039 --> 00:21:13.200
I the first thing I really remember around 6 or 7 in the morning you were all sitting in a conference room of university leaders.
00:21:15.279 --> 00:21:22.480
And uh you're all getting debriefed from the fire department and knew at that point we knew the dual fatalities.
00:21:22.480 --> 00:21:23.920
Um that hard to hear.
00:21:24.559 --> 00:21:32.720
Um and then it is immediately we'd be asked questions about you know how do we evacuate and what we wanna be doing.
00:21:32.720 --> 00:21:38.880
Um After getting out of that meeting, my first job then was to go.
00:21:38.880 --> 00:21:44.000
We were already getting lots of phone calls and parents who would just showing up on campus.
00:21:44.000 --> 00:21:49.519
And this is before Twitter and social media and but there were cell phones.
00:21:49.519 --> 00:21:52.880
And it was all over the morning news we instantly it was on the 6:00 news, 7:00 news.
00:21:54.960 --> 00:21:59.680
And so, parents of students are just driving to campus.
00:21:59.680 --> 00:22:02.160
Because they couldn't reach their kids.
00:22:02.160 --> 00:22:05.519
Not all of them even had cell phones at that point.
00:22:05.519 --> 00:22:25.759
And uh and my first goal is was to just touch base with my staff, the staff we worked [indistinguishable] um some of them or I think they were in shock, uh, and helping them, getting them to save place with the people with to help them.
00:22:25.759 --> 00:22:52.720
Um and then we kind of s yeah, by mid-morning press conference, um our president at the time spoke I thought this message was was right on he basically said right now, we just experienced a terrible tragedy, and our only focus our only priority is to take care of our students and their families.
00:22:52.720 --> 00:22:55.359
And so that was our job.
00:22:55.359 --> 00:22:58.319
We were told to be whatever.
00:22:58.319 --> 00:23:02.160
For some people it meant walking to be a cafeteria and just talk to student.
00:23:03.039 --> 00:23:15.680
For some of us it was planning for, uh people who needed toiletries or had to get in to get medicines and they was just started dividing things up and our vice president.
00:23:15.680 --> 00:23:36.960
I think for this very skilled leader, and quickly identified if this was much bigger than a housing issue and much bigger than any one office to [indistinguishable], and that she started organizing all this team of student affairs and giving us different responsibilities, for uh helping, and a short [indistinguishable] .
00:23:48.799 --> 00:23:50.799
Sorry, I'm just digesting all this.
00:23:50.799 --> 00:23:51.759
Yeah.
00:23:52.880 --> 00:24:00.160
I have um I uh used to teach a class um for doctoral students.
00:24:00.160 --> 00:24:24.720
It was a crisis communication class, and one of the activities was um that they would do a group project, they would research a um, and I taught this for three years in a row, um, research, find a crisis that happened in higher education, and look at the communication that happened around it and dissect it, what went well, what didn't go well.
00:24:24.720 --> 00:24:31.359
And every year this was uh a group found this and picked it.
00:24:31.359 --> 00:24:58.799
And I think it was so difficult for some of them to wrap their heads around the fact that this happened before social media and uh their inability to find um a lot of communication around it led them to believe that the communication had not been good uh because they couldn't go in and find a social media post or um a video about it.
00:24:58.799 --> 00:25:10.799
It was really just uh, to your point, what the uh university president had shared and also uh what local news media um had had covered.
00:25:10.799 --> 00:25:19.519
So for me, it was an opportunity to help people understand how um reporting and communication shift across time.
00:25:19.519 --> 00:25:24.160
And just because they don't have access to something doesn't mean it didn't happen.
00:25:24.160 --> 00:25:37.279
Um so all that to say, I think, you know, in any tragedy, I think the hope is that you can learn from it and um have it inform how you move forward.
00:25:37.279 --> 00:25:48.319
And you know, 20 plus years later, this is still something that um students are finding and using as a learning example and talking about.
00:25:48.720 --> 00:25:49.279
Yeah.
00:25:49.279 --> 00:25:51.519
I think that you're right.
00:25:51.519 --> 00:25:53.200
It was very different.
00:25:53.200 --> 00:26:07.119
And I I can imagine that other than some uh video, maybe from local media or newspaper clippings, you wouldn't find a lot because they're mostly in other media outlets.
00:26:07.119 --> 00:26:24.799
Um I think what I what I remember learning, and I was fortunate that the person on our campus was kind of like the charge of public relations, um, was actually my wife worked for her and university advancement.
00:26:25.279 --> 00:26:29.519
Um my wife was a writer and editor for the university magazine.
00:26:29.519 --> 00:26:59.680
And the person being became our spokesperson along with uh her name is, Lisa and Lisa had I think understood that uh in a media has a story they want to tell, and what she would say is, "We have to share our story and then answer questions." But every time you get a question, she's like, you always want to repeat your message.
00:26:59.680 --> 00:27:04.400
And that was something I've learned in beginning, any kind of student issue, you know.
00:27:04.400 --> 00:27:08.000
But I get asked now about triples and overcounting.
00:27:08.000 --> 00:27:14.880
I always start with, you know, yes, you know, we acknowledge it, and then yes, these are some of the things we're doing.
00:27:15.200 --> 00:27:22.160
And now let me tell you about the great relationships you know there was, and I come right back to our message and our story.
00:27:22.160 --> 00:27:31.200
And I think that you all think you'd a lot of credit for how we've handled that part of uh message and adapting in that era.
00:27:31.200 --> 00:27:48.079
Uh probably harder to evaluate that now, but in that time period, um we have received a lot of praise from families, uh, from uh respective students and others that we were very open and transparent.
00:27:48.079 --> 00:27:53.759
And that when we said that our priority was caring for students, we meant it.
00:27:53.759 --> 00:27:59.839
And that's the other thing when your action hasn't backed up when we say, and our actions did.
00:27:59.839 --> 00:28:03.039
And I think I attribute a lot of that to the leadership.
00:28:04.240 --> 00:28:06.079
They understood what was our priority.
00:28:08.319 --> 00:28:18.799
I think uh the phrase um driving the narrative or you know, pushing a narrative, I think there is a negative connotation to it.
00:28:18.799 --> 00:28:27.039
But I think at the end of the day, um what it boils down to is if you don't share the the news needs to sell.
00:28:27.039 --> 00:28:34.400
They're they're getting ads based on clicks, they want you know a viral moment that they're sharing.
00:28:34.400 --> 00:28:38.960
Um and what you share with the news media is going to be different.
00:28:38.960 --> 00:28:41.759
There's never going to be one message.
00:28:41.759 --> 00:28:43.519
What do your students need?
00:28:43.519 --> 00:28:45.039
What do your employees need?
00:28:45.039 --> 00:28:46.559
What do your families need?
00:28:46.559 --> 00:28:48.720
And what does the public need to know?
00:28:48.720 --> 00:28:51.119
The facts are probably all the same.
00:28:51.119 --> 00:28:56.319
How you package them is going to need to be different based on the population that you're working with.
00:28:56.319 --> 00:29:03.359
So it is, I think, a lot more complicated than just um standing in front of a press conference.
00:29:03.359 --> 00:29:13.279
There's a lot of work that goes into the back end of that to make sure that people are taken care of and that they receive the information because if they don't, then it can become a crisis.
00:29:13.279 --> 00:29:21.519
Uh, you know, the story becomes not about the thing that happened, but how the college or university handled it or mishandled it.
00:29:21.519 --> 00:29:25.920
Um, and that could be the situation or the communication around it, unfortunately.
00:29:26.160 --> 00:29:27.359
Yeah, absolutely.
00:29:27.359 --> 00:29:28.160
Yeah.
00:29:28.160 --> 00:29:39.680
And again, I think what I was taught, and I think what we tried to do was um to always answer the questions too.
00:29:39.680 --> 00:29:43.440
When they ask a question, we can't not answer them.
00:29:43.440 --> 00:29:47.920
Um you say there's limits sometimes as to what people say.
00:29:47.920 --> 00:29:57.599
But I think today I often, even now, I get frustrated with some uh things I hear on our campus where we just don't answer something.
00:29:57.599 --> 00:30:01.759
And I'm like, if you won't answer it, then I'm filling in the blanks until they answer it.
00:30:02.880 --> 00:30:09.359
So we have to answer the question, but then you can what do you want to get people to learn about whatever it's going about?
00:30:10.559 --> 00:30:30.480
You know, and I think if part of our um value proposition is that we are a caring institution, um, that means being transparent, even if and communicating with people, saying that, you know, the no comment or we're not going to share that, there may be a very good reason sometimes.
00:30:30.480 --> 00:30:33.440
Uh, but you've got to say we can't share that right now because of X.
00:30:33.440 --> 00:30:42.480
You can't just say we're not telling you, uh, because it it conflicts with that value of belonging and caring.
00:30:42.799 --> 00:30:43.119
Right.
00:30:43.119 --> 00:30:44.240
Absolutely.
00:30:44.559 --> 00:30:56.720
Um You took what was probably the worst thing that ever happened in your career and used it as an opportunity to teach us um lessons that you had learned.
00:30:56.720 --> 00:31:06.799
So the one you just said was know your message and stay on message, which now I hear all the time on TV or if it stay on message.
00:31:06.799 --> 00:31:14.400
And I had probably heard it hundreds of times before that, but until your workshop, I it wasn't part of me.
00:31:14.400 --> 00:31:22.319
But the second thing was learning to stay off the record that you can talk to reporters.
00:31:22.319 --> 00:31:36.079
Um, I loved having student journalists in my office and know that I could just say off the record, here are some things that are happening behind the scenes, and I am entrusting you with this information.
00:31:36.079 --> 00:31:39.119
And when it can be public, I will let you know.
00:31:39.119 --> 00:31:44.960
But right now I'm just sharing, you know, we're building a relationship of trust.
00:31:44.960 --> 00:31:50.240
And I'm gonna trust you with some details that we're not sharing publicly.
00:31:50.240 --> 00:32:03.759
And if I hadn't learned that from you, I think I might be like colleagues I have that just have a they will ghost uh requests for interviews or requests for quotes.
00:32:03.759 --> 00:32:12.240
And I feel like you armed me with an ability to be transparent that I I hadn't had before.
00:32:12.640 --> 00:32:13.839
Yeah, I appreciate that.
00:32:13.839 --> 00:32:19.519
I mean, like I said, I I learned a lot from the people who helped train me.
00:32:19.519 --> 00:32:23.839
I can't remember if I even if I did that session with Lisa.
00:32:23.839 --> 00:32:29.519
There was one that I brought, she was with me uh at MACUHO that we presented together.
00:32:29.519 --> 00:32:33.119
But um there were many things I learned.
00:32:33.119 --> 00:32:35.200
I I I still try to learn those.
00:32:35.200 --> 00:32:44.480
And and and about the part about being prepared is very important, because she would tell us in subsequent years of training.
00:32:44.480 --> 00:32:52.000
Um that even when the student reporter comes in, we need to quiet our thoughts for at least five minutes prior.
00:32:52.000 --> 00:32:56.559
And know what is it that they want to talk about and what is it that I would want one to feel.
00:32:56.559 --> 00:33:24.079
And I try to remember that even today, and you know I need the students because uh the truth is that today, um, there are all kinds of media outposts that will follow student media, looking for something that can be scandal ous and they can take and blow up and be the story and so e ven when we're talking to students, um maybe the exception being the ones was good to only [indistinguishable].
00:33:25.440 --> 00:33:37.440
But if it's hidden in student media somewhere, there are many other news outlets that are looking at that, and story leaks and so, it is so important what we think about what we want to sell.
00:33:42.079 --> 00:33:57.279
As I was reading the 25-year retrospective uh information from Seton Hall, um there were stories about the two young men that um eventually took responsibility for starting the fire.
00:33:57.279 --> 00:33:58.000
Uh-huh.
00:33:58.000 --> 00:34:06.000
And I'm sure my thoughts 20 years ago would be different from now.
00:34:06.000 --> 00:34:09.119
Because now they break my heart.
00:34:09.119 --> 00:34:16.960
Um, I saw a quote from a faculty member that said, I don't know why they would have not come forward right away.
00:34:16.960 --> 00:34:25.440
And I was thinking, I I know why I can think of a hundred reasons why they wouldn't have come forward right away.
00:34:25.440 --> 00:34:38.079
Um and now I I wonder about them and I don't want that to diminish the pain that other people have gone through.
00:34:38.079 --> 00:34:49.599
But um were you part of any disciplinary process or how how do you do something that makes sense in a situation like that?
00:34:50.400 --> 00:34:51.920
That process, no.
00:34:51.920 --> 00:35:00.719
That honestly was it was several years after the fire before that trial.
00:35:00.719 --> 00:35:08.719
Um they the investigation I wanna say it went on at least to 2003 or 2004.
00:35:10.000 --> 00:35:16.960
Um, because I can remember I had already moved here in 2005.
00:35:16.960 --> 00:35:29.840
Because when the trial was going on, and so I I actually was asked at one point it to write a statement for when some of the people we were found guilty.....
00:35:30.639 --> 00:35:41.920
Sentencing statements. Um that was after I'd left, so that process went on a long long time and it was n't something I was a part of.
00:35:46.480 --> 00:35:47.760
I I have a job now.
00:35:47.760 --> 00:35:55.199
I was sort of retired out of full-time work, and I have a sweet little position where all I do is student conduct.
00:35:55.199 --> 00:35:59.280
It's the greatest job in the whole world.
00:35:59.280 --> 00:36:12.960
And I get to hear, I mean, back to like the easiest of cases of stuff that's found during the health and safety checks or move in, move out checks.
00:36:12.960 --> 00:36:33.199
And um it's I my style tends to be to end meetings saying to students, like, I'm gonna trust you, like you're gonna make decisions, you're gonna be around substances and you're gonna make adult decisions about whether you want to try it or not, and where and when, and if.
00:36:33.199 --> 00:36:39.119
And the only thing that I'm not like that for is fire.
00:36:39.119 --> 00:36:45.039
Um, the unlit candles, the covered smoke detector.
00:36:45.039 --> 00:36:59.440
Um and I'm always trying to find that sweet spot because your experience still lives with everybody I think that has ever read about it, seen it.
00:36:59.440 --> 00:37:13.039
Um, and I'm always trying to find that sweet spot of not like you're gonna start a fire and kill people, but also to really instill like a reality for them.
00:37:13.039 --> 00:37:17.920
Like you do not want like this must never happen again.
00:37:18.239 --> 00:37:52.159
And I I wonder how did you internalize that stuff and yeah, I well I I very much believe that after, you know, we we learned a lot uh about what we had, about what others perceived we had done wrong, about how we did uh health and safety inspections, or how we even evacuated and practiced evacuating, um, or things that we got to change.
00:37:52.159 --> 00:38:02.159
Um But I think the most uh thing that stuck with me the most great that I internalized right away was just the seriousness of alarms.
00:38:02.800 --> 00:38:07.280
And the seriousness and knowing how to be safe.
00:38:07.280 --> 00:38:28.639
Um, because uh those students who were injured uh can't say for sure how the students who were killed, but uh in many instances we know from talking students that they turned and walked directly towards the fire when they could have gone an opposite direction.
00:38:28.639 --> 00:38:34.639
Um there were many who delayed their reaction because they didn't take it seriously.
00:38:34.639 --> 00:38:40.960
And so uh to this day, in fact.
00:38:40.960 --> 00:38:47.039
Two nights ago, I was on campus for fire girls.
00:38:47.039 --> 00:38:56.000
I still come to campus and watch our halls and I'm for practices for Uh at least a few days a year I won't come in for every one.
00:38:56.000 --> 00:39:03.360
But I still come in and watch and I observe Uh because it's that important.
00:39:03.360 --> 00:39:14.960
And so I think I learned a lot and the thing I internalize first was how important, it was to take places in serious faith, and I have a plan where what we're gonna do in an emergency.
00:39:14.960 --> 00:39:28.320
Uh even in my most personal life, um, I've been in hotels and restaurants where an alarm would go off when I look at my why I know where the exit is, I'm like "Let's go," Let's start walking.
00:39:28.320 --> 00:39:30.800
Everybody else is just ho hum ho hum.
00:39:30.800 --> 00:39:32.480
And I'm like, no no no, Let's not...
00:39:33.440 --> 00:39:34.719
with the situation.
00:39:34.719 --> 00:39:37.519
Uh I was recently up.
00:39:37.519 --> 00:39:43.280
In June was at a hotel, and the hotel had an alarm at like 11 o'clock at night.
00:39:43.280 --> 00:39:44.480
I walked out.
00:39:44.480 --> 00:39:47.840
And was walking, and there were people walking toward the elevator.
00:39:48.559 --> 00:39:51.840
I just looked the moment I said "What are you doing? The stairs are right there.
00:39:52.320 --> 00:39:57.039
And I as I got outside, I thought, oh, I guess that I was not a very nice person.
00:39:57.039 --> 00:39:59.920
But I'm proud.
00:39:59.920 --> 00:40:13.199
It just was uh what reaction for me when I well, I knew it was like a thing to be worried about, but uh, I was miffed at them that they would be walking to go get the elevator.
00:40:14.239 --> 00:40:20.320
I'm like "What are you doing?" Uh so I think I internalized that for sure.
00:40:20.320 --> 00:40:29.440
Uh and then I'm paying attention to all the aspects of part of safety to me, oh that's something that we would have a [indistinguishable] .
00:40:30.320 --> 00:40:34.320
Um I think it's something I write about present on.
00:40:35.039 --> 00:40:38.480
Uh and I did fortunately.
00:40:38.480 --> 00:40:49.280
A big thing and came from the fire was the lack of uh sprinkler system convinced in the build up this and of course with legislation passed, but I didn't have retrofit.
00:40:49.840 --> 00:40:53.840
Today and today's construction and it's required by [indistinguishable].
00:40:56.000 --> 00:41:11.599
The good news is, uh the colleges and universities is that hopefully, what happened at Seton Hall 26 years ago is not something that should likely happen on a campus, simply because of the facilities.
00:41:11.599 --> 00:41:16.719
But the facilities alone, shout out to my are not going to save everyone.
00:41:16.719 --> 00:41:22.639
Uh, or help prevent injury, if people don't care about community, a body more.
00:41:22.639 --> 00:41:23.280
[indistinguishable] .
00:41:33.280 --> 00:41:43.199
I'd say your um demeanor at the hotel may not have been friendly, but I would also call it a kindness to keep the people off the elevator.
00:41:43.599 --> 00:41:44.880
That's how I'll look at it.
00:41:45.599 --> 00:41:46.239
Yeah.
00:41:46.239 --> 00:41:52.960
Uh I'm gonna go back to relationship again.
00:41:52.960 --> 00:42:07.199
Uh my current campus last year had an epidemic of students in a particular one of our biggest buildings, uh stealing directional signs, like exit signs in buildings.
00:42:07.199 --> 00:42:14.960
And the default reaction, of course, is polices and threats to students.
00:42:14.960 --> 00:42:39.599
And I'm gonna double down this year, like I think relationships are like appealing to people about safety, and we don't want first responders coming into a building and not knowing how to find the exit doors and or people not being able to find the exit in a smoky hallway.
00:42:39.599 --> 00:42:48.159
Uh, but the more they care about each other, the the signs aren't gonna be stolen.
00:42:48.639 --> 00:42:50.320
I I absolutely agree with that.
00:42:50.320 --> 00:42:55.039
We that was one of the bigger problems, you know, prior our model when I first got here.
00:42:55.039 --> 00:43:00.639
Um, exit signs apparently were like a trophy thing to knock down.
00:43:00.639 --> 00:43:34.239
Um we had constant problems, in our buildings um that and and they also damaged water fountains but um I I I agree that things happen, but when they care about each other they care about [indistinguishable] , uh that included stops, plus it becomes such a uh becomes so unaccepted by them that it it makes the person who might do it question themselves and stop.
00:43:38.239 --> 00:43:42.880
That reminds me of when we did community standards, uh the self-governance model.
00:43:42.880 --> 00:43:47.679
Uh one of our the issues that we were dealing with was pulled fire alarms.
00:43:47.920 --> 00:43:48.320
Yep.
00:43:48.719 --> 00:44:11.199
Uh there was a tradition the night before the MCAT exam that they would pull alarms, and um those all went away when w students had community uh accountability in positive and yeah, it it's all in positive ways, whether it's because of problems or just out of love.
00:44:11.199 --> 00:44:22.559
Like you care, you're worried about a friend, but things like damaged um vending machines, furniture being thrown out windows, but the big one was the fire alarms.
00:44:23.519 --> 00:44:30.719
One of my stories that was back to my very first full-spent professional job at the University of Arizona.
00:44:30.719 --> 00:44:40.880
I worked in a high rise nine- story building, and it had a reputation as well and things you got to think about.
00:44:40.880 --> 00:44:47.360
And so I won't say it was uh And I was determined that we could change that.
00:44:47.360 --> 00:44:52.079
And so same thing to the This is gonna be known as the fun place to be.
00:44:54.559 --> 00:44:59.039
I didn't know I was doing what I just do today, but that was my approach.
00:44:59.039 --> 00:45:04.480
And the final one started happening because it was traditionally what's was supposed to happen here.
00:45:04.480 --> 00:45:13.440
And students started getting very frustrated because they liked to go out at one in the morning and play together two in the morning and get a four in the morning.
00:45:13.440 --> 00:45:20.079
And I remember talking to students and I, uh addressing them and saying, You are the ones who can stop this.
00:45:23.039 --> 00:45:28.800
You decide because it's no longer accepted then you can stop this.
00:45:28.800 --> 00:45:42.880
And a lot of you just looked at me and said "We need more RAs, why aren't police here?" and I'm like "That's not gonna do it." You all can do this because I know somebody knows who's doing that.
00:45:42.880 --> 00:45:48.320
And you can stop this and you all decide that this is no longer so much of fun.
00:45:48.320 --> 00:46:03.679
And sure enough, uh up when a week or two later, I was in my apartment and I heard this noise and I thought, they know what's happened, and I thought it was the firewall.
00:46:03.679 --> 00:46:11.360
But the strobe wasn't going on, and so I walked out of my apartment, and I realized that's not the alarm, but I could hear that noise.
00:46:11.360 --> 00:46:17.840
And then I walked outside, and I see a group of about 20 students.
00:46:17.840 --> 00:46:26.000
And they have a kid sitting in a chair and being quite literally duct taped to that chair.
00:46:26.000 --> 00:46:28.800
And they're carrying them, making the noise.
00:46:29.360 --> 00:46:32.320
Because they found out you know who pulled the alarm.
00:46:32.320 --> 00:46:34.719
They carried them out.
00:46:34.719 --> 00:46:38.800
I see the police, the police pull up to like the pit what's gone out.
00:46:38.800 --> 00:46:47.119
I'm like, well, got some students figured out to who the alarm puller and they told us, but taking them up to the duck pond and they're going to dunk him.
00:46:48.239 --> 00:46:54.639
And they walked up a block or two, and the police were like, "We'll just follow along and make sure no one gets hurt." Awesome.
00:46:54.639 --> 00:47:00.880
And so the police literally followed this group of students making that noise up the sidewalk what they dunked the kid in.
00:47:00.880 --> 00:47:06.480
And then the police escorted him out of the place and down to the station, and he was suspended.
00:47:06.480 --> 00:47:10.159
But um there were no more alarms after.
00:47:11.679 --> 00:47:16.960
I don't know if I have a strong opinion about vigilante justice, but that uh that made me happy.
00:47:17.360 --> 00:47:20.079
It was, it was I knew, and I and I did.
00:47:20.239 --> 00:47:21.199
I would talk to police.
00:47:21.199 --> 00:47:25.440
I'm like, we need people like, well, we'll we'll make sure no one gets hurt.
00:47:25.440 --> 00:47:27.840
And obviously that that is an issue.
00:47:28.239 --> 00:47:32.960
I am I would say in general not uh let's go and be vigilante as about stuff.
00:47:32.960 --> 00:47:37.840
But what it illustrated in the bigger sense for me was that the students had had enough.
00:47:38.719 --> 00:47:40.559
And they said, we'll no longer go.
00:47:40.559 --> 00:47:44.239
We don't want this, we don't want this. This is not who we want to be in our hall.
00:47:44.239 --> 00:47:48.719
And they took care of it and it never happened again.
00:47:50.000 --> 00:47:55.599
Our field has now stepped into restorative practice as part of our vocabulary.
00:47:55.599 --> 00:48:08.800
But you are talking about *transformative* uh justice, it's called when you don't need authorities anymore because people are taking care of their own stuff.
00:48:08.800 --> 00:48:11.840
And maybe it's a little rough around the edges.
00:48:12.079 --> 00:48:12.639
Yeah.
00:48:12.960 --> 00:48:16.880
But they were passionate about safety.
00:48:16.880 --> 00:48:22.480
They weren't and they weren't calling somebody else in to fix it for them.
00:48:22.480 --> 00:48:31.679
Craig, can you say one more time what the name of the program was that you modeled your program after the one in New Orleans?
00:48:32.159 --> 00:48:35.360
So, yeah, the one in New York, uh it was Shreveport Louisiana.
00:48:35.679 --> 00:48:36.800
Oh, Shreveport.
00:48:37.039 --> 00:48:41.119
Yeah, that's called Community Renewal International, CRI.
00:48:41.119 --> 00:48:44.159
And I encourage anyone to go look it up.
00:48:44.159 --> 00:48:47.840
It's an amazing program, and it's it's now all over the country.
00:48:47.840 --> 00:48:50.639
They have offices in DC and other places.
00:48:50.639 --> 00:48:56.239
Um, but our model is called K CE, uh, which is knowing, connecting, empowering.
00:48:56.880 --> 00:49:06.639
And we very much believe we've actually hosted um the last two years a symposium on and invited people to come learn about our model.
00:49:06.639 --> 00:49:10.639
And we've had institutions, uh, thirty institutions each year.
00:49:10.639 --> 00:49:21.760
From all over the country come and learn about our model so, um, we would love for it to become a standard practice in student housing everywhere.
00:49:21.760 --> 00:49:24.400
Uh because it works.
00:49:24.400 --> 00:49:29.280
And because um staff love it, and the students love it.
00:49:29.280 --> 00:49:36.480
Um they're they're building and creating new senses of belonging new communities of caring to each other [indistinguishable] .
00:49:42.480 --> 00:49:43.840
I am on board.
00:49:43.840 --> 00:49:48.079
I you're you're making my heart sing right now.
00:49:48.079 --> 00:49:54.639
I am going to look it up, and folks, I'm gonna put a link in our um podcast notes to that program.
00:49:54.639 --> 00:49:59.679
But also, Craig, if there's anything that you would want to send that I could link on.
00:49:59.679 --> 00:50:03.599
I'm just, Lord help me, gotten involved in local politics.
00:50:03.599 --> 00:50:04.239
Oh boy.
00:50:04.239 --> 00:50:08.880
And going to the the local council meeting each time.
00:50:08.880 --> 00:50:14.400
It's remarkable how similar the issues are to the things that students are dealing with.
00:50:14.400 --> 00:50:18.719
Like my neighbors are too noisy, and the council needs to fix it.
00:50:18.719 --> 00:50:21.280
The town needs to fix it for me.
00:50:21.280 --> 00:50:27.519
Your model could work for me on my campus and it could work for me in my own neighborhood.
00:50:27.519 --> 00:50:31.440
It's fortuitous that you are our guest today.
00:50:31.840 --> 00:50:33.039
Glad to do it.
00:50:33.360 --> 00:50:37.119
Craig, I know you've been part of a really innovative program too.
00:50:37.119 --> 00:50:47.760
I'm just gonna plant the seed and I will post a link to another podcast you were on once where I heard you talking about a program called Ship Shape Sherley that you did during COVID.
00:50:47.760 --> 00:50:53.679
And if you would be so kind as to come back someday, um I would love to, yeah.
00:50:53.679 --> 00:51:01.199
I'd like to keep this thread about the relationship model going, and for me, that was a really inspiring story.
00:51:01.519 --> 00:51:06.239
It's a it's a fun one and uh took me back to my in-hall.
00:51:06.239 --> 00:51:09.039
And uh I would love talk about it sometime.
00:51:09.599 --> 00:51:13.039
You know, I was thinking this was gonna be a gloom and doom episode.
00:51:13.039 --> 00:51:22.639
And I feel really excited and energized by what you shared and how we can actually use this to better ourselves.
00:51:22.960 --> 00:51:23.599
Thank you.
00:51:23.840 --> 00:51:27.519
Yeah, we don't read not on not on Ms. Behavior.
00:51:28.079 --> 00:51:30.639
No, you're doing magnificent work.
00:51:30.639 --> 00:51:32.880
I'm I'm so glad you're one of us.
00:51:32.880 --> 00:51:34.480
Any final thoughts, y'all?
00:51:34.800 --> 00:51:43.519
Well, I just want to thank those of you who are doing the conduct work because uh my goal is to try to keep them from getting to your office.
00:51:43.519 --> 00:51:55.760
But uh I often, when I sit down with my colleagues who work at our dean of students' office, um it's interesting how we all kind of find our place in time, right?
00:51:55.760 --> 00:51:57.920
And I'm not gonna talk to one of them.
00:51:58.480 --> 00:52:17.119
He said things like, I just can't imagine how you deal with sign it some parents and all these things we do all the time, and I said, Well, I can't imagine doing student conduct kinds of things, and and clearly what I realized in that conversation is that I want what I do, and he wants what he does.
00:52:17.119 --> 00:52:19.199
We all have a little bit of...
00:52:19.199 --> 00:52:20.960
he had worked in housing at one time, too.
00:52:20.960 --> 00:52:35.039
So he really what I was doing when I've done some conduct, so I know a little bit about what he does, but uh we all kind of find our path, and it's great to know that there are exceptional people in all these different parts of student affairs.
00:52:36.559 --> 00:52:44.320
And when you're all sharing a philosophy and a mission, it's all the same work, whatever you call it, and whatever the X's and O's are.
00:52:44.320 --> 00:52:47.599
We're all just doing the good work of students.
00:52:47.920 --> 00:52:49.039
Yeah, absolutely.
00:52:49.360 --> 00:52:50.800
That's a good place to leave.
00:52:50.800 --> 00:52:53.280
I sure thank everybody who's listening.
00:52:53.280 --> 00:52:57.280
We are still a fairly new, we just started season two of this podcast.
00:52:57.280 --> 00:53:05.840
If you enjoyed this episode, I hope you'll share it with a friend or leave us a review, send us a little fan mail to tell us that you're listening.
00:53:05.840 --> 00:53:08.800
We live for that stuff right now, we're still learning.
00:53:08.800 --> 00:53:11.920
Um, but we really thank you for being part of this today.
00:53:11.920 --> 00:53:13.280
And thank you, Craig Allen.
00:53:14.239 --> 00:53:15.280
Thank you, Colette.
00:53:15.280 --> 00:53:16.559
It was pleasure.
00:53:17.199 --> 00:53:23.360
Yes, Ms.
00:53:23.360 --> 00:53:27.599
Behavior is written and produced by Colette Shaw and Kurt Doan.
00:53:27.599 --> 00:53:33.760
Theme music was written and performed by Kevin McLeod from InCopitech.com.
00:53:33.760 --> 00:53:35.119
You can contact Ms.
00:53:35.119 --> 00:53:36.480
Behavior at Ms.
00:53:36.480 --> 00:53:39.199
Behavior College at gmail.com.
00:53:39.199 --> 00:53:43.519
That's M S BehaviorCollege at gmail.com.
