WEBVTT
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Hi everybody and welcome to Ms.
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Behavior.
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We are the podcast for college student conduct professionals.
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My name is Colette.
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And I'm Kurt.
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Hi y'all.
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I'm Christy.
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Christy's coming back.
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You may have heard her a few weeks ago when we talked about a different topic than we're going to talk about today.
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We promised to have Christy back to talk about academic misconduct.
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And we're going to pull the rug out one more time because Dr.
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Christy Anthony comes from a background with some pretty significant sexual violence and Title IX experience, but also working really successfully with Greek chapters.
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We feel like we can't go much longer without talking about Cornell, but we're not going to talk about Cornell today.
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We want to talk about some broader issues that hopefully Jane Doe and the Cornell situation are making us all talk about.
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Welcome Christy and Kurt to this.
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I don't know, this is a tough conversation for me.
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I mean, I think it's it's really hard, right?
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There is so much pain everywhere.
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And we were talking beforehand about I think it's really tempting for a lot of people to dive into sort of the the true crime seems to trivialize it in a way I don't think anyone means to.
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That's sort of like the fact pattern of the case and and trying to be a detective and figure out what happened.
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And and I really appreciate a chance to take a different approach because the reality is none of us are gonna have all the information we would need to do that well.
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But I I do think a lot about how frustrating it is that it feels like the needle hasn't moved in the way we would have expected it to move.
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You know, I was at NASA Strategies in January and I was listening to Chris Linder, who's a truly like an amazing researcher in this area, and any chance anyone has an opportunity to hear her speak, you should.
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And she was pointing out the data hasn't changed really in 40 years.
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I think for people who work in or adjacent to sexual misconduct on campus, Jane's story is at an end of the spectrum, but it's not out of the realm.
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I don't know anyone who works in this area who thought this could never happen here.
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This is so extreme as to be unbelievable.
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And at some level, you know, while while there's very good emotional and data reasons to believe survivors, it's a little sad that so many of us find this so credible at the same time.
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I uh just a few mornings ago, I had a virtual coffee with one of the chi-fi alums from the last college I worked at.
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And I just disclosed to you all three years ago I was the Chi-Fi administrator of the year from their national office.
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And that was something I was really proud of.
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And I was proud of them.
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Them being the national and them being the chapter on our campus that came back from a significant hazing incident in a in an honorable way.
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But he's like, Calad, I'm I'm quitting.
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I can't, I just can't anymore seeing what happened at Cornell.
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And besides that, my wife, she would just kill me if I supported a fraternity chapter right now, let alone a chi-fi chapter.
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What do you think?
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I was like, Well, I would say that, you know, problems that led us to where we met each other, some of it was because alumni weren't involved and they didn't know our men.
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I can't, you know, you've got to do what is right for you, but walking away isn't going to make it better.
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But I have to confide to you two, I am wondering.
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I I think that Greek life might be broken enough, or this case is showing us why everything is such a fight to to try to have the good experiences we have, and there are lots and lots of them.
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So I I'm just sitting in this place of I I'm not sure where I stand anymore.
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Part of the difficulty is there aren't easy answers for any of this.
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Like, you know, we were talking about I I think about amazing fraternity men.
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I have known who were leading the anti-violence efforts on campuses I have been on.
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And in part, I think felt able to do that because of their fraternity affiliation.
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And also, I'm not affiliated, right?
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So and never have been.
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And so it it feels like me critiquing a culture I'm not a part of.
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And and I will be honest, don't feel like I deeply understand.
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But I I guess I haven't yet heard the reason that social fraternities, social IFC fraternities in particular, are making our campuses net better.
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I am confident there are chapters and and communities where that is happening.
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And it's worth being really clear what is being reported from Cornell could happen on a campus without fraternities.
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It does happen on campuses without fraternities.
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We know that.
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I think it's really time to think about it way past time to think about what we can do to really drive out groups that we know are at high risk.
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And that includes hyper-masculine identity groups and groups that base a lot of their socialization around alcohol.
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That isn't only social fraternities, but it is social fraternities.
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I think I'm in a very similar headspace to Christy because I I don't I've not worked in a Greek life area.
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I don't have any sort of affiliation with Greek life.
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So it is for me very much feeling like an outsider trying to assess something that I don't understand.
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And where I keep going is, you know, what system allowed for this to happen.
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And I don't think it's any one system.
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I think it is a Venn diagram of one particular chapter and a culture on a campus, and probably things that I don't even know.
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And I don't know what what pieces of that system are fixable and which ones need to be more closely examined.
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I think Chrissy, you made a great point about net net value to a college campus and to a college experience.
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I've heard lots of people come away from Creek Life experiences saying that, you know, they made some of the best friends they ever made in college.
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But how quickly does that get undone when something like this happens on any college campus?
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It's got national ripples to it that can't be ignored.
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I know enough healthy chapters where the net value was about belonging, where most of the men, or at least a lot of the men in those chapters, would tell similar stories about they didn't find their people when they came to campus.
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They felt like they were the outsider, and then they found this chapter where they they could just be themselves and be vulnerable with other men and feel accepted for who they totally were.
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Like a college should look at that.
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Like these were places of belonging.
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And then they they were the chapters that were trying to hold the line, holding their peers accountable for being just good men.
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If we got rid of fraternal life, we could do that.
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But where are those places of belonging that would take the place of that?
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But it's so hard, even for those chapters, trying to find a faculty and staff advisor that wanted to work with them and really know them and put in the time to visit the house and come to meetings with them.
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Oh no, I don't want to do it.
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It's a fraternity.
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I don't believe in fraternities.
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Uh well, do you believe in these men?
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If they don't have support, so that there's just the campus support, but all the other pieces of this of national chapter support, parents, like where are families in this stuff?
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I don't know if it's just too heavy a lift right now for institutions to just set the right things in motion for things to be successful.
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Having obviously grown up in the United States in the 70s and 80s, I I think of Greek life and fraternities and sororities as a feature of college campuses.
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That they, you know, when you think about college, it might be one of the top five things that people think about when they're naming off what you would find on a college campus.
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But as you're talking, it made me think, what if it's not a feature?
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What if it's a symptom of a void that we as employees at colleges, we have not fulfilled on something that makes people feel like they belong.
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So this system comes up to fill that void, then we spend decades wrangling with it and trying to figure out how did it, how do we control it or how do we how do we shape it?
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When the real question should have been like, why does it exist to begin with?
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And if it exists to make people feel like they have a place on campus, could we be doing something different?
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I'm not saying get rid of Greek life, but I'm saying if it is fulfilling something, is that something we can replicate and take out all the pieces that aren't working right now and replace them with things that we know work from a research perspective?
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I have no idea what that looks like, but uh feature versus symptom just jumped into my head.
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I keep going back to the episode with Craig Allen, the the model that he's using um at Texas Christian, where all the RAs, their only job is just to know, to know as many people as they can know.
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And then the next step is to connect those people so that they have more networks and then to empower them to be part of governance, but part of planning, part of everything, so that they truly are part of the fabric of that place.
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They have institutionalized caring.
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And I think when you have those places, I can only speculate that this kind of violence would be quite rare.
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You look skeptical, Christy.
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I am skeptical.
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It's interesting, right?
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I mean, sexual misconduct has been an almost accidental and constant part of my work, and it it is not what I went into student affairs to focus on, and it has been a focus.
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And and I don't, you know, I I think back to a very elite school where I worked, and they were launching their very first sexual misconduct climate survey.
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And it was a professor who was leading the team, who like had a background in statistics and social sciences, so well qualified, right?
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Um, and the professor was also an alum, and he said, Well, I'm sure we will have a much lower rate of sexual violence than any of the other institutions doing this survey.
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And I said, Tell me what you think that's really interesting.
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We're private institutions.
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Private institutions tend to run a little above the national average.
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We didn't have fraternities, but we had some similar social organizations that operated the same way.
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And and he said, Well, we're, you know, fill-in-the-blank elite school.
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And I just think our students are smarter than.
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And I was sort of like, Oh, I'll get you your whole salary per whole year, way more than I made, that will be slightly above the national average.
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And we were.
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I don't want to say, and I don't believe in my gut and in my heart that sexual violence cannot be defeated.
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And and maybe I'm wrong about that.
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Maybe I just need to believe that.
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And also, I don't see anything in research or my experience that says this one thing will be the cure, right?
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Kurt, I think you're right.
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I think it's several systems that are failing.
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I think fraternities are failing, not just the women around them, but the young men in them for sure.
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I I think back to a dean of mine from Semester C posted on Facebook, I am exhausted of seeing colleges and universities raked over the coals, but no one is calling out the national organization that is making money off of our students.
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So I think it's time to call out the national organizations more.
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I think of schools, including some I've worked with, where they poured a lot of resources into Title IX, thinking that that would solve it, forgetting that Title IX is the floor of what we need to do to address sex and gender-based discrimination.
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And the floor isn't nearly good enough.
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Part of me wonders how much of it is we got to a point where we were okay checking the box.
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We were okay saying everyone did their online module.
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There's not a ton of research indicating that the online modules make a lot of difference.
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There's some, I don't mean, and I don't think they're terrible, but it's not the same as having people practice bystander intervention.
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It's not the same as having students get used to discussing this with their peers and addressing what can seem to many of us like minor incidental moments that create a culture that says it's okay to ignore the humanity of your peer.
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I don't think it's one thing.
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I wish it was as easy as getting rid of fraternities, which isn't an easy thing to do, nor are we sure it's the right thing to do, but I don't think it's enough.
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I heard a student speaker at Cornell say, stop calling it the Cornell 7, because this happened because of a culture of sexual violence that is permissible, not just at Cornell, I think nationwide.
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But the fact that nobody took a step back from this situation and examined it critically.
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I sent Colette a text message about two weeks ago.
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I was in the middle of something I can't I said, I can't get into this now, but like I'm on fire about this.
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I I saw some of the initial stuff coming out about what was going on at Cornell, and I thought this is mind-boggling to me.
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I said to Colette when she reached out on doing this, I said, here's the thing, I actually haven't followed this in great detail.
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I have long suspected, having been on the inside of thankfully, blessedly, nothing that's high profile, but some high profile cases.
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I am guessing that some of what is coming out is lacking the nuance that would make it the whole truth.
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And here's the other thing that just sits unhappily with me as a citizen, as someone who believes in higher education, and as a parent of a girl, very few people have said, oh, that can't be true.
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There has to be more to it.
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Which says to me, we don't trust excellent schools.
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And Cornell's an excellent school, and I know really good people doing wonderful educational work there.
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But we don't trust them to take care of our kids in this way.
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Because whatever it is that actually happened, and we will probably never know the full dimension of this.
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Because I don't know if anyone ever gets to know the full dimension of anything like this.
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But we found we find it believable.
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The young men who facilitated sexual assault were assigned an essay.
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We find that believable.
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I'll say this.
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I've worked at schools that would never have done something like that.
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I've worked at schools that wouldn't have even given an essay.
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So I can believe there are schools that do that.
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I it doesn't sound like Cornell was bad.
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There is nuance, is what the breadcrumbs would say.
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But there are places that just don't get it.
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I'm gonna go back.
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You were talking about that um every school now probably has one of those online education courses that every first-year student has to take as a hoop to jump through before they start school, and it's about consent.
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And there is a a place for that of just some definitions of consent, knowing what that means.
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But this is not a consent education issue.
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What what happened is a violence issue.
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Even if this whole thing were a fiction and we were reading it, we should there's so many lessons we could all be learning from it instead of trying to pick it apart for its credibility.
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I wrote a little note to myself too.
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If we got rid of chapters, the really the great chapters that I worked with, one of the reasons I held them up is because it was not unusual after an interfraternity council meeting, after IFC, for students to say, like, hey, Dean Shaw, can we talk to you about something?
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We've got a guy that when he drinks, he gets really handsy with women.
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We're gonna need your help.
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He cannot be in our chapter.
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Or uh, if it was during new member processes, they'd have a little meeting with the other fraternity chapter presidents, like, you don't want this person.
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We're not gonna recruit this guy, and we think you should not either.
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And then that guy was gonna find another place to go be a predator.
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So it wasn't perfect that they had these secret meetings, but at least I knew for our students looking for a party on a Friday night, and like that's a house you could probably go to and feel like you would be pretty safe if we shut all those chapters down.
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I there would be a net loss to that.
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Call it, did you affiliate as an undergrad?
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I didn't.
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You know, I've got a t-shirt from the service fraternity I was in, Omicron Delta Kappa, and on um Where Your Letters Day for faculty and staff, I would pull that shirt out, but I felt like a poser because I'm I was an independent really.
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I was just thinking about like, okay, so so let's imagine if we wiped social fraternities, and I think we'd have to do sororities per Title IX, interestingly, what that would mean for our divine nine and NGC groups unless, um, unless sure of.
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I was just thinking about like, what would my undergrad experience have been like?
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I went to an undergraduate institution that was about 40% social Greek affiliates.
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Like it was a high percentage, and I didn't affiliate.
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And interestingly, almost none of my friends did.
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And I'm just I'm just under like, what was it about the social life I was in and choosing that made that feel just fine and like a rich social campus experience?
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And Kurt, I know you said congenital, and I don't know what the like Greek breakdown was at your alma mater, but I I just think it's sort of interesting of like, okay, alumni would be really mad.
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And as we've said, it wouldn't solve the sexual violence issues on our campuses because getting rid of the fraternity doesn't get rid of the rapists or the people who will silently tolerate it.
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I I think there's research to say that it would lower risk for sure.
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What really would happen to social life?
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Would there be other organizations that would fill that void and and would they be better?
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Or would the people who are seeking the worst of that environment find a way to replicate it somewhere else?
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I don't know.
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I mean, I have experiences that go both ways on that.
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I I never got involved in Greek life.
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I went to Penn State for my undergrad, big Greek life enterprise.
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As an introvert, it was not something I was interested in.
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Like the thought of living in what looked like chaos to me.
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My only experience was going to fraternity parties with friends and thinking this is every weekend that there is this level of chaos in a house, this amount of alcohol.
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I'd rather, you know, have a quiet evening in my room and have some jello shots with friends than have, you know, hundreds of strangers traipsing through my home and spilling stuff all over the place.
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So, really, for me, it was about not being messy.
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Um, but I do think a couple things come to mind with this.
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To what degree do students now come to campus expecting to have that kind of experience as part of their college experience?
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I keep seeing statistics about this group of students that are going through higher education right now are drinking less, uh, but they're also lonelier than any other generation of students that went through higher education.
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So this may be a good opportunity.
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I'm not saying get rid of Greek life, but yeah, if we're going to introduce something that is meant to fill that void, now's a great time to do it because it is a group of students that maybe are hungry for connection and also less interested in having a drunk vendor be the cornerstone of their higher education experience.
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And I'd I also acknowledge that I think there are a percentage of people on college campuses that are sexual predators.
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And immediately, Colette, when you're think when you were talking about this secret meeting of we don't want this person, you don't want them either.
00:21:36.319 --> 00:21:48.319
To me, how do you intervene as an administrator and say, let's connect with this person and try to figure out like how we can help them be different on a college campus than that?
00:21:48.480 --> 00:21:57.119
Because I agree, I think they're going to find an outlet for that, unfortunately, and it's going to result badly for one or more people on a college campus.
00:21:57.359 --> 00:21:59.519
Well, I think some of their culture was.
00:22:00.079 --> 00:22:01.680
A bigger systemic problem.
00:22:02.079 --> 00:22:09.839
The way Title IX, and I can't even remember which flavor of Title IX over the last decade it was.
00:22:10.000 --> 00:22:23.440
And different institutions interpreted it differently, but making it a requirement that a a sexual assault case would only move forward if um an alleged victim made a formal complaint.
00:22:23.599 --> 00:22:27.440
Some campuses made what a formal complaint looked like.
00:22:27.680 --> 00:22:28.720
Very arduous.
00:22:28.799 --> 00:22:31.759
And so almost no one ever did it.
00:22:32.480 --> 00:22:39.759
And so the story then would become students go and make a complaint at Title IX and then nothing happens.
00:22:40.000 --> 00:22:42.160
So don't even bother to go there.
00:22:42.400 --> 00:22:49.599
If there was going to be justice, it was going to happen at the student org level that, like, well, at least we have standards.
00:22:49.759 --> 00:22:52.000
And we're the only parties in town.
00:22:52.160 --> 00:22:56.160
So if we kick you out, you know, we've taken care of business here.
00:22:56.400 --> 00:22:59.759
I do think there is a part of that that that was broken.
00:22:59.839 --> 00:23:04.240
And so students felt like they they had to just do it within their own power.
00:23:04.480 --> 00:23:11.279
And also, I think about times I've seen students do that and cause huge amounts of harm.
00:23:11.519 --> 00:23:16.400
So I was on a campus where that was happening multiple times a semester.
00:23:16.720 --> 00:23:26.720
And we had one group that told a complainant, choosing that word very deliberately, that she had to appear before them.
00:23:26.880 --> 00:23:30.400
And they questioned her like they were on law and order.
00:23:30.559 --> 00:23:32.799
And it was horrible for her.
00:23:33.039 --> 00:23:37.440
So much so the criminal case sort of then also fell apart.
00:23:37.599 --> 00:23:41.839
She'd been pursuing a criminal case and they ruined the criminal case.
00:23:42.079 --> 00:23:49.279
And that person, that respondent, did eventually leave campus, but the complainant was left more traumatized.
00:23:49.519 --> 00:23:50.720
The whole group was.
00:23:50.960 --> 00:23:54.319
The district attorney was furious, understandably.
00:23:54.559 --> 00:24:00.319
I mean, I think what I wish schools would do more, you know, put a pin in Title IX for a minute.
00:24:00.480 --> 00:24:11.279
Title IX is gonna do what it's gonna do, but it doesn't have to be the only a formal Title IX doesn't have to be the only option that's right to give our students.
00:24:11.839 --> 00:24:12.480
That's right.
00:24:12.799 --> 00:24:20.079
It's one of my frustrations with schools that for reasons I understand, they're like, all right, we've done everything we have to do under Title IX.
00:24:20.160 --> 00:24:25.920
I don't know any school that's doing it perfectly, but we've done it, we've checked all the boxes, so we're done here.
00:24:26.079 --> 00:24:40.640
We don't need to fund anything else, we don't need to educate in any other way, we don't need to organize anything else, and we definitely don't need another path of resolution when in reality, what we know is there's lots of complainants and respondents that want other alternatives.
00:24:40.799 --> 00:24:45.200
And I'm not saying that there shouldn't be a place for a form.
00:24:45.440 --> 00:24:48.559
I'm not one of the people who thinks like campuses shouldn't do this anymore.
00:24:48.799 --> 00:24:51.279
Because all the people who are saying this should be for the police.
00:24:51.519 --> 00:24:52.319
Oh, I know.
00:24:52.559 --> 00:24:53.359
Go look over there.
00:24:53.440 --> 00:24:56.079
I'm not sure that's going so great either, right?
00:24:56.240 --> 00:25:01.680
But I do think as campuses, we need to stop thinking that once we've done Title IX, we've done enough.
00:25:01.759 --> 00:25:10.960
Because Title IX doesn't require an informal resolution process, but that is an option that lots of students want and benefit from.
00:25:11.200 --> 00:25:11.440
Yes.
00:25:21.359 --> 00:25:27.039
I may have different, but that's an incredibly important resource for complainants and respondents.
00:25:27.440 --> 00:25:45.680
I think one of the things we as schools, and like I said, I think we should be holding lots of other entities accountable, including these national orgs, whether it's for a fraternity or whether it's for an honor society or whether it's for the kickball league, they should be stepping up also.
00:25:45.920 --> 00:25:47.680
But there's a gap to be filled in.
00:25:47.759 --> 00:26:04.160
And incidentally, a lot of that gap has been filled for generations by people doing victim advocacy work and grassroots anti-violence work, and they have been pushed out as that area became more professionalized and got more expensive for schools.
00:26:04.640 --> 00:26:10.799
And I think it's time to try to start bringing some of those folks back into our spaces.
00:26:11.119 --> 00:26:14.880
One of the groups that's being sued uh is the sorority.
00:26:15.119 --> 00:26:15.680
Yeah.
00:26:15.920 --> 00:26:19.599
I haven't read the basis for the suit against the sorority.
00:26:19.759 --> 00:26:21.119
I know they're being sued.
00:26:21.200 --> 00:26:24.720
I know it's by Jane Doe, and that's pretty much all I know.
00:26:25.039 --> 00:26:31.920
I'll do it a disservice here, some pregaming stuff, but let me pull the camera back even further.
00:26:32.079 --> 00:26:50.160
When I was talking about families, I do think there's some something to look at with money, with finances and cisgender white men who make a lot of money and really traditional gender family roles that students have seen played out.
00:26:50.319 --> 00:27:00.720
But I do think there is some complicit behavior that can generate as as tradition among sororities and fraternities that plays into this.
00:27:00.799 --> 00:27:09.039
So I I think that's not being talked about, but pretty interesting that maybe this is our chance to take a look at it.
00:27:09.279 --> 00:27:25.039
Yeah, I mean, I think it's interesting to think about how much that gender split replicates social norms that are not in and of themselves violent, but that have a very high correlation with violence.
00:27:25.279 --> 00:27:32.720
I'm thinking about the book The Secret Life of Sororities by uh oh gosh, Alexandra Robbins.
00:27:32.799 --> 00:27:36.400
I love her, and I'm a shame I didn't remember her name.
00:27:36.640 --> 00:27:54.799
But relationships between, you know, XYZ sorority and XYZ fraternity, and the tradition is we always take each other to the formals, and you don't want to make a report that's gonna look bad on XYZ fraternity because we want to make sure that we go to their formal because that's the best formal.
00:27:55.119 --> 00:28:19.680
So for bigger campuses where there are hierarchical um statuses of fraternities and sororities, I think it creates a pressure not to report, to drink as much as your chapter wants you to drink and wear what you're supposed to wear and like old, old stuff uh that we know is not healthy, but there's a home for it.
00:28:20.000 --> 00:28:26.400
Yeah, it's the sense, right, that that the organization is worth more than the individual.
00:28:26.880 --> 00:28:37.119
And not because the organization is made up of individuals, but just because like the organization has intrinsic value, and really the healthy organization, its value comes from the humans.
00:28:37.359 --> 00:29:03.039
And individuality, like the group pictures I see for sometimes are like, oh my god, they had to all buy the same matching silver sequin pumps and silver leather jackets and just for one photograph, and the money and the status, and I think of college as the place where you're exploring identity and getting to try on different identities to see like who is me?
00:29:03.279 --> 00:29:05.039
What is this thing called me?
00:29:05.440 --> 00:29:15.519
And being part of a group that's saying, here's what it is, you have to look like this and buy this and date this and sleep with this.
00:29:15.759 --> 00:29:18.319
I really like to disrupt some of that.
00:29:18.720 --> 00:29:30.319
I do wonder, thinking about colleges and universities as a system, but also Greek life, this whole idea of tradition and an investment in like here's how we do things, here's our culture.
00:29:30.559 --> 00:29:36.960
At what point does what what does it take for you to have to disrupt that culture and that tradition?
00:29:37.279 --> 00:29:55.839
How far does it need to go before somebody says we have to peel this back and really closely examine it and figure out what works in the year 2026 that we've carried forward from 1906, what no longer works, what are we prepared to give up, and what do we want to take with us that is the good of it?
00:29:56.000 --> 00:30:01.200
Because I do think there are probably, I imagine it wouldn't be still happening if there were good things that came out of it.
00:30:01.359 --> 00:30:04.480
What we see on the news is is the bad stuff, unfortunately.
00:30:04.720 --> 00:30:13.920
I also think about people like you, Colette, that remain committed to Greek life as part of their professional career, and they are also in some ways tied to this.
00:30:14.079 --> 00:30:26.960
How it must feel for you as a career professional who's put so much time and effort into uplifting Greek life to look at something that has failed so colossally in this one particular instance and others as well.
00:30:27.119 --> 00:30:28.640
Where is your head at with all that?
00:30:29.039 --> 00:30:36.400
The first part of what you said, I was thinking people are going to be looking to their conduct people and want things taken away.
00:30:36.559 --> 00:30:39.359
You messed up, so you don't get a chapter anymore.
00:30:39.519 --> 00:30:47.680
But there has to be equal, at least equal amount of time wondering where do we where do we create create the stuff that is good?
00:30:47.839 --> 00:30:48.079
Yeah.
00:30:48.319 --> 00:30:52.559
Christy, last time you were on um, we were talking about something completely different.
00:30:52.640 --> 00:30:57.440
And I had posted a little social media clip that just said, can't we be more creative?
00:30:58.000 --> 00:31:05.119
And a faculty person got on our social media and said, No, no, no, we cannot.
00:31:05.920 --> 00:31:07.440
No, that's not allowed.
00:31:07.680 --> 00:31:13.359
And they went on, no, I've put in 25 years and I'm exhausted, and students hate us.
00:31:13.519 --> 00:31:18.400
The society is anti-education and the administration is tearing us to pieces.
00:31:18.559 --> 00:31:22.160
Like, no, but I still would I would post that again.
00:31:22.319 --> 00:31:24.640
Like, can't we be more creative?
00:31:25.119 --> 00:31:28.480
I don't want to be told I have to do more.
00:31:28.640 --> 00:31:30.720
And I'm actually here for that.
00:31:31.359 --> 00:31:33.759
I'm here for let's not do more.
00:31:34.000 --> 00:31:36.400
I do think that you know what?
00:31:36.559 --> 00:31:40.640
Last time we were talking about that taking attendance doesn't create accountability.
00:31:40.720 --> 00:31:45.519
And also here, like clicking through a module doesn't create accountability in the way we want.
00:31:45.680 --> 00:31:47.039
And here's here's the other thing.
00:31:47.200 --> 00:31:49.920
Okay, this is my other soapbox about Cornell.
00:31:50.079 --> 00:31:50.880
I'm gonna get on.
00:31:51.039 --> 00:31:58.720
I am exhausted of hearing people, middle-aged people like me, say, why didn't anyone intervene?
00:31:58.880 --> 00:32:03.759
It's so easy because it's not easy, it's not that easy.
00:32:03.920 --> 00:32:09.119
And I say that as a middle-aged person who is like, I was never cool.
00:32:09.359 --> 00:32:11.680
I am so far from cool now.
00:32:11.839 --> 00:32:14.240
I have no coolness points I'm worried about.
00:32:15.200 --> 00:32:17.920
I literally do this for a living.
00:32:18.160 --> 00:32:22.559
I literally have written a dissertation on bystander intervention.
00:32:22.720 --> 00:32:33.599
And when I've intervened twice on Metro, which seems to be the main place I end up doing no three times on Metro, which seems to be the main place I'm doing bystander intervention in my life.
00:32:33.680 --> 00:32:35.920
Y'all, the Metro in DC are perfectly safe.
00:32:36.079 --> 00:32:36.559
Go there.
00:32:36.720 --> 00:32:37.920
This is happening everywhere.
00:32:38.160 --> 00:32:45.039
Every time I do it, my heart is in my throat and I feel nauseous and I can feel my pulse increasing, and I'm getting sweaty.
00:32:45.200 --> 00:32:56.799
I'm not saying we shouldn't do it, and I'm not saying we shouldn't expect it of each other, but let's stop pretending it's something that you get good at and comfortable with by watching someone do it in a 30-second clip.
00:32:56.960 --> 00:32:57.599
It's hard.
00:32:57.680 --> 00:33:01.200
And and again, I'm not worried about my peers disapproving of me.
00:33:01.440 --> 00:33:01.519
Right.
00:33:01.680 --> 00:33:05.039
For stars, my peers think it's pretty badass.
00:33:05.200 --> 00:33:07.920
But I have, you know, other people who don't.
00:33:08.160 --> 00:33:10.160
My tween doesn't think it's cool.
00:33:10.319 --> 00:33:12.319
And still it's hard for me to do.
00:33:12.480 --> 00:33:21.039
And so I don't think we should be pretending that bystander intervention is easy, but we should be acting like it's necessary and it's life-saving.
00:33:21.200 --> 00:33:22.640
That is what we should be doing.
00:33:22.799 --> 00:33:25.279
So I I think that's where I am for creativity.
00:33:25.359 --> 00:33:33.599
Like I want to see more creativity, but not in the sense of people telling us, here's exactly what you must create and how you must create it, fill out this worksheet.
00:33:33.759 --> 00:33:38.880
I want to see creativity in the sense of like, how do we engage students more?
00:33:39.359 --> 00:33:51.759
How do we have people who are younger and cooler than me, and there are lots of them out there, telling us how to do this in a way that reaches the folks we need it to reach?
00:33:52.000 --> 00:34:05.599
And how do we also find a way to say to students, you know, I saw this youth psychologist on, I don't know what social media platform the other day saying that there's no point in trying to tell a young person, like, don't worry about being cool.
00:34:05.759 --> 00:34:09.360
Okay, heard, but how then how do we make this cool?
00:34:09.440 --> 00:34:20.960
And I think that's gonna take more creativity, and that's the kind of thing that we need more flexible roles and flexible goals, that it can't just be Title IX, check the box.
00:34:21.039 --> 00:34:23.039
That's essential, but it's not getting it done.
00:34:23.360 --> 00:34:25.440
That's not meeting the moment our students ran.
00:34:25.760 --> 00:34:32.159
You know, the irony, the alum that contacted me to say, Yeah, I'm I'm quitting the chapter.
00:34:32.239 --> 00:34:33.679
I just I can't anymore.
00:34:33.840 --> 00:34:41.760
He's for the past two years, he's been teaching this little leadership course for the actives and coming back to campus to teach the class.
00:34:41.920 --> 00:34:45.599
And he had called me two weeks ago to see if I could connect him.
00:34:45.679 --> 00:34:50.639
He's like, Remember that speaker you had, come talk to the alumni and do a little workshop for us.
00:34:50.880 --> 00:34:52.320
Like, yeah, I remember him, Cal.
00:34:52.639 --> 00:34:57.519
He was one of the peer health educators, and he did a bystander workshop for the alums.
00:34:57.840 --> 00:35:04.639
And uh, he's like, Yeah, I'd really like to connect and uh I'd like to make sure we do that workshop for the brothers.
00:35:04.800 --> 00:35:08.400
And then the Cornell news came out, and he's like, I quit.
00:35:08.480 --> 00:35:16.480
And I'm like, the thing they need most of all is your bystander education that you were just about to do, not walking away.
00:35:16.719 --> 00:35:16.960
Yeah.
00:35:17.119 --> 00:35:27.039
Well, and this is one of the reasons I think campuses would do well to talk to their local victim advocacy group and say, like, what can you come do for us?
00:35:27.679 --> 00:35:31.360
Those people have been in the trenches of this for years.
00:35:31.599 --> 00:35:32.639
They know the work.
00:35:32.800 --> 00:35:40.800
At some level, to the betterment of our communities, they're not interested in checking off the box for the floor of Title IX, right?
00:35:41.039 --> 00:35:45.760
And and again, uh, I wouldn't say like they're amazing people doing Title IX work.
00:35:45.920 --> 00:35:47.360
I'm not denigrating the work.
00:35:47.440 --> 00:35:49.039
I'm just saying it's not sufficient.
00:35:49.199 --> 00:35:49.440
Right.
00:35:49.599 --> 00:36:04.400
And I think the more we look to attorneys and compliance managers whose job is an important one to satisfy the federal requirements for the institution, the less we're looking at what else can we do?
00:36:04.559 --> 00:36:08.000
Because we can we can do more than we have done for sure.
00:36:08.159 --> 00:36:16.079
I have seen a Title IX or whatever the office is called job description, and it was pretty much keep us in compliance.
00:36:16.239 --> 00:36:16.480
Yep.
00:36:16.639 --> 00:36:21.920
Like, oh no, my idealism was I felt so naive.
00:36:22.079 --> 00:36:22.239
Yeah.
00:36:22.400 --> 00:36:23.199
Like, really?
00:36:23.679 --> 00:36:24.800
Oh crap.
00:36:25.039 --> 00:36:33.440
I mean, listen, the the best Title IX coordinator in the world is not survivor-centered and they're not respondent-centered.
00:36:33.599 --> 00:36:38.880
I remember explaining that to a student once when they were like, so, so you're on my side, right?
00:36:38.960 --> 00:36:40.719
I was wanting a Title IX process.
00:36:40.800 --> 00:36:44.079
And I was like, the side I'm on is the institution's side.
00:36:44.239 --> 00:36:47.039
Well, that doesn't sound great right now.
00:36:47.519 --> 00:36:51.119
And it's not honestly reassuring to either party.
00:36:51.280 --> 00:36:52.719
And I'm not saying it should be.
00:36:52.800 --> 00:36:57.760
There is value to that neutral, impartial, highly structured process.
00:36:57.920 --> 00:36:59.039
It's just not enough.
00:36:59.280 --> 00:36:59.760
That's all.
00:36:59.920 --> 00:37:14.559
And I think a lot of schools have hoped from 2011, from April 2011 onward, that complying with the federal government would also be enough to end sexual misconduct.
00:37:14.639 --> 00:37:19.440
But when it comes to choosing, if they have to choose, they're going to comply with the federal government.
00:37:19.599 --> 00:37:22.159
And I guess I'm saying I don't think it's enough to make choice.
00:37:22.559 --> 00:37:38.159
I'm a big advocate for the creativity idea because I I don't think this is, I can almost feel the tension of, you know, you've got people clinging to the past and tradition and a group that wants to move forward and make things better.
00:37:38.320 --> 00:37:43.760
And when you've got that tension on both sides, the only thing that's going to happen is it's going to get ripped apart anyway.
00:37:44.000 --> 00:37:49.440
So why not collaborate and work together and figure out creative solutions to these issues?
00:37:49.599 --> 00:37:52.480
I'm that's maybe that's too uh optimistic.
00:37:52.639 --> 00:37:55.199
What's the name of the optimistic woman?
00:37:57.360 --> 00:37:58.880
Oh Pollyanna?
00:37:58.960 --> 00:37:59.599
Yeah, Pollyanna.
00:37:59.840 --> 00:38:00.320
Pollyanna.
00:38:01.199 --> 00:38:01.760
That chick.
00:38:02.079 --> 00:38:05.760
See, I was hearing a very different tone of that at the beginning of that censor.
00:38:06.159 --> 00:38:11.440
I was hearing about like um creative destruction.
00:38:11.679 --> 00:38:13.840
Like smash it all down.
00:38:14.159 --> 00:38:14.400
Yeah.
00:38:14.480 --> 00:38:15.840
I mean build something different.
00:38:16.079 --> 00:38:23.920
I thought that that should be the topic of this episode is that if we were going to start this from the beginning again.
00:38:24.159 --> 00:38:25.920
And I kept getting stuck.
00:38:26.079 --> 00:38:29.280
There are so many forces at play here.
00:38:29.519 --> 00:38:32.000
And then my mind is always like, what is the simplest?
00:38:32.159 --> 00:38:34.320
Like, don't overcomplicate it.
00:38:34.480 --> 00:38:37.840
But a successful model is is challenging.
00:38:38.159 --> 00:38:39.760
A successful model is challenging.
00:38:40.000 --> 00:38:47.519
And also, I mean, so here is the thing I think in the moments when I do not feel very hopeful about this work.
00:38:47.760 --> 00:39:05.280
Um, a really, really good friend of mine, whose name is Shannon, who has been doing victim advocacy work for we've got to be going on 30 years now, and is still doing it, said really early on, we were working together and we were like, little baby student affairs people.
00:39:06.239 --> 00:39:12.800
And this was before the 2011 deer colleague letter and and all that, right?
00:39:13.280 --> 00:39:18.159
We were working with the student conduct director who just sort of said, I don't know what you want us to do.
00:39:18.320 --> 00:39:19.920
The system is the system.
00:39:20.079 --> 00:39:21.280
And bless her.
00:39:21.440 --> 00:39:26.480
My my 25-year-old friend said, Well, that's the thing about systems.
00:39:26.800 --> 00:39:29.679
We built them and we can build them differently.
00:39:29.840 --> 00:39:31.760
And I think it's something we forget.
00:39:31.840 --> 00:39:34.719
Like, I I just think about her saying that to me all the time.
00:39:34.800 --> 00:39:36.400
It was a life-changing thing.
00:39:36.639 --> 00:39:40.239
Because I was like, Oh my god, all the broken systems are things we built.
00:39:40.559 --> 00:39:42.239
We can build them differently.
00:39:42.480 --> 00:39:49.360
It's work and it's hard, and it, you know, we don't necessarily know where it will go or how it will turn out.
00:39:49.519 --> 00:39:50.480
But you know what?
00:39:50.639 --> 00:39:57.599
Humans built Cornell, humans built Kai-Fi, humans built all of these places.
00:39:57.760 --> 00:39:59.280
We can build them differently.
00:39:59.599 --> 00:40:02.480
I remember a few years ago, a local chapter.
00:40:02.719 --> 00:40:11.760
I don't think they sued their national, but they may have written an open letter to their national and said, We need you to be better.
00:40:12.000 --> 00:40:12.880
You are not.
00:40:13.039 --> 00:40:14.320
I I what's that?
00:40:14.719 --> 00:40:17.760
And I think it had to do with race equity.
00:40:17.920 --> 00:40:19.360
Um I think it did.
00:40:19.519 --> 00:40:21.119
Was it was it SAE?
00:40:21.199 --> 00:40:23.840
That feels like an SAE thing or a hold on.
00:40:24.079 --> 00:40:28.400
And that the the national chapter failed to meet the moment at the time.
00:40:28.559 --> 00:40:30.719
Now I don't know what has happened since.
00:40:30.880 --> 00:40:33.280
But I was so proud of those young men.
00:40:33.440 --> 00:40:35.599
Like that was something.
00:40:35.760 --> 00:40:46.159
And I have worked with men that I think would do that, that would hold their national to a higher standard if they knew choices or had options.
00:40:46.480 --> 00:40:47.760
Now I'm like, who was this?
00:40:47.840 --> 00:40:48.800
I do remember this.
00:40:48.960 --> 00:40:49.519
Hold on.
00:40:49.840 --> 00:40:50.719
I might have it.
00:40:50.880 --> 00:40:53.199
So I think this is what you were talking about.
00:40:53.360 --> 00:40:58.719
Um this is from Jeffelle to cite my sources, December 11th, 2014.
00:40:58.880 --> 00:41:00.320
No, this was too early.
00:41:00.639 --> 00:41:09.519
But it was um Alpha Kappa Alpha had advised members not to wear their Greek letters while protesting police brutality.
00:41:09.840 --> 00:41:13.199
And then the national changed their position.
00:41:13.440 --> 00:41:14.639
But there's something else.
00:41:14.960 --> 00:41:19.519
It was a group that if you just saw their letters, you would think atypical frat.
00:41:19.920 --> 00:41:23.199
But uh, it was like, wait a minute, what did they do?
00:41:23.360 --> 00:41:25.920
This is a they all used action.
00:41:26.239 --> 00:41:39.119
Kappa Alpha Order at Southwestern in 2020, August 2020, tried to end their Confederate traditions, and then national organizations suspended them.
00:41:39.199 --> 00:41:40.239
This was at Southwestern.
00:41:40.639 --> 00:41:41.199
That's right.
00:41:41.280 --> 00:41:42.400
They suspended them.
00:41:42.639 --> 00:41:43.360
That's what it was.
00:41:43.519 --> 00:41:43.920
Yes.
00:41:44.239 --> 00:41:48.400
And the chapter said that's fine, we're not doing this anymore.
00:41:48.559 --> 00:41:49.119
That's what it was.
00:41:49.440 --> 00:41:57.599
You know, we've had a lot of conversations lately about how higher education has to evolve in the face of changing demographics.
00:41:57.760 --> 00:42:02.639
That, you know, there aren't as many students, so we have to change the way we do business.
00:42:02.800 --> 00:42:09.119
I spend a lot of time on TikTok, probably more than a 50-plus year old person should.
00:42:09.280 --> 00:42:18.400
What impresses me the most about this generation of students that's entering into college is their focus on advocacy and inclusion.
00:42:18.719 --> 00:42:28.559
And I do think part of this moment that we're talking about is will Greek life be a fulfilling thing for them, or is it gonna be something that rubs against the grain of who they are?
00:42:28.719 --> 00:42:33.679
Or will they look at it and say, there's some good stuff about it, but some of these policies are gross.
00:42:33.840 --> 00:42:41.679
They're either gonna push for change or they're going to find something that fits more with how this generation is identifying, I think.
00:42:41.920 --> 00:42:44.159
Gen Alpha is not to be messed with.
00:42:47.679 --> 00:42:50.400
I mean, Colonel, I think that's a really interesting challenge, right?
00:42:50.480 --> 00:42:53.119
And and to the point we've been making throughout, right?
00:42:53.199 --> 00:43:01.039
It's not only fraternities and also it is a little bit of a challenge, I want to say fraternities, especially to the alum in the headquarters.
00:43:01.280 --> 00:43:08.320
You're telling us that you deserve to stay in spite of litany of observations and incidents.
00:43:08.960 --> 00:43:09.519
Prove it.
00:43:10.239 --> 00:43:11.119
Prove it right now.
00:43:11.280 --> 00:43:12.880
This is a moment you can step up.
00:43:13.920 --> 00:43:20.559
You can take all that power, all that money, all that positionality, and you can start making our campuses a better way.
00:43:20.639 --> 00:43:26.480
But part of that will mean undermining some of the gender hegemony that you have profited off of.
00:43:26.960 --> 00:43:28.079
So prove it.
00:43:28.320 --> 00:43:30.079
That could be really powerful.
00:43:30.400 --> 00:43:35.760
There's something about money that's tied into that too, that's making me money and power.
00:43:36.000 --> 00:43:46.880
Christy, when you were talking about working at an elite place, the more elite places I worked at, the more the gender stuff was tied to money.
00:43:47.039 --> 00:43:47.280
Yeah.
00:43:47.440 --> 00:43:59.760
And I even remember in my history of higher ed class from a million years ago, learning how at college graduations, at the beginning of American higher ed, the graduates who were all men were lined.
00:44:00.159 --> 00:44:03.840
Up according to how rich their parents, their fathers were.
00:44:04.079 --> 00:44:09.039
And then when that got mixed up, uh fraternities were created.
00:44:09.119 --> 00:44:15.440
And it was a sort of a marker of how much you made, depending on which chapter you joined.
00:44:15.519 --> 00:44:18.639
So you could still keep your financial status.
00:44:18.800 --> 00:44:27.440
And I feel like there's something in this that where capitalism is at the root of what is going on.
00:44:27.760 --> 00:44:37.119
I mean, right, capitalism says you're as valuable as your contribution to GDP, says the person who never took econ.
00:44:37.440 --> 00:44:40.000
So I'm probably using all the words wrong.
00:44:40.400 --> 00:44:50.960
And let's be honest, for a long time, women's contribution to GvP was always very significant, but wasn't counted in the same way.
00:44:51.199 --> 00:44:59.039
And yeah, I mean, I do think it's this moment of like, how much do you value each other's humanity and how much do you see that?
00:44:59.360 --> 00:45:01.679
And how much do you think you can get away with it?
00:45:01.840 --> 00:45:08.159
There's a whole lot of research that says very, very privileged people think they can get away with it.
00:45:08.320 --> 00:45:14.159
Not not necessarily that they think it's something that everyone should be doing, but they won't get caught or they won't get punished.
00:45:14.320 --> 00:45:14.880
And they do.
00:45:15.119 --> 00:45:17.039
Yeah, no, there's plenty of evidence to say.
00:45:17.440 --> 00:45:27.760
I'll just say in a hypothetical case, if the men in this particular type of situation aren't prosecuted, they will probably be fine financially.
00:45:28.320 --> 00:45:31.920
I think it's interesting the school newspaper published their names.
00:45:32.000 --> 00:45:46.559
And and I've made a choice not to look at their names, but I'm not gonna lie, if I was hiring uh I had a Cornell male graduate in my queue of potential employees, I would be going to find those names.
00:45:46.800 --> 00:45:48.400
I still think they would be fine.
00:45:48.559 --> 00:45:50.559
Oh, I I think you're right for sure.
00:45:50.880 --> 00:45:55.440
There are employers that would say, Oh, you were one of the ones that was railroaded.
00:45:55.679 --> 00:45:56.239
Yeah.
00:45:56.480 --> 00:45:56.960
Mm-hmm.
00:45:57.199 --> 00:45:57.519
Yeah.
00:45:57.920 --> 00:46:05.679
I do uh wonder what all this looks like in the age of digital and social media vigil vigilanteism.
00:46:06.079 --> 00:46:11.360
Uh I I mean, Claude, I sent you a screen video that I took.
00:46:11.440 --> 00:46:15.119
Uh Cornell left all their comments on social media open.
00:46:15.280 --> 00:46:23.519
And doesn't matter what the video clip was that they shared, the comments were overwhelmingly about this incident.
00:46:23.679 --> 00:46:30.320
There's, and rightfully so, a lot of rage around what happened, and people are not editing themselves.
00:46:30.480 --> 00:46:31.280
So I don't know.
00:46:31.440 --> 00:46:32.960
They might be okay financially.
00:46:33.440 --> 00:46:46.880
Socially, I do wonder in this new digital world, having your name out there and having people just doxing folks, I think there is a court of public opinion that is starting to look very different than maybe it did 15 or 20 years ago.
00:46:47.199 --> 00:46:50.639
But then I'm that restorative practice is part of me.
00:46:50.800 --> 00:46:52.159
They're all humans.
00:46:52.400 --> 00:46:54.400
They have to want to repair their harm.
00:46:54.639 --> 00:46:55.360
They do.
00:46:55.599 --> 00:46:59.440
And first it starts with acknowledging that there was harm.
00:46:59.679 --> 00:47:16.800
Right now, people are breaking it into, well, you know, this one was the worst, but this one only did this, and this person only texted, and this person only replied to the text, and this like it's all it's it's and it's one thing that we all that's that we need to look at.
00:47:16.960 --> 00:47:22.079
This was it's all a system with different parts, different machinery.
00:47:22.320 --> 00:47:22.480
Yeah.
00:47:22.639 --> 00:47:24.000
I mean, Claude, I agree with you.
00:47:24.079 --> 00:47:28.400
I think restorative work has a place in sexual miscontact work.
00:47:28.639 --> 00:47:31.440
And also they have to want to repair the harm.
00:47:31.599 --> 00:47:36.800
And to your point, I think that gets harder when the stakes are raised in the way Kurt described.
00:47:37.360 --> 00:47:37.679
Right?
00:47:37.840 --> 00:47:53.760
If I have to if I have to acknowledge my harm to the person I harmed and a few people adjacent to them, that is entirely different than if I, a 20-year-old, have to acknowledge my harm to the world.
00:47:54.239 --> 00:48:02.400
And right now they're having to navigate a a criminal justice system that is by definition an adversarial system.
00:48:02.639 --> 00:48:06.800
So they the rules are you must deny.
00:48:06.960 --> 00:48:14.880
I mean, you don't have to, but for the most part, you are expected to deny this and fight that to the very end.
00:48:15.280 --> 00:48:19.039
And I'm sure lawyers and their parents are telling them that.
00:48:19.360 --> 00:48:20.000
Right.
00:48:20.400 --> 00:48:20.800
Yeah.
00:48:21.199 --> 00:48:31.840
And so this is the story arc I'm talking about could be decades long if if there's any possibility at all.
00:48:32.079 --> 00:48:36.639
I don't want to read about somebody killing themselves because of this.
00:48:38.559 --> 00:48:40.000
I thought a lot about that.
00:48:40.320 --> 00:48:41.119
Could we be better?
00:48:41.199 --> 00:48:50.639
I mean, could could we just be better in all aspects of how these things are prevented, dealt with, dealt with it in the long term?
00:48:50.960 --> 00:48:53.280
I have a feeling we'll be back to revisit.
00:48:53.519 --> 00:48:55.119
I don't think we fixed it.
00:48:55.440 --> 00:49:02.400
No, but I'd like to see even in six months or in a year when the next hot thing is on the headlines.
00:49:02.719 --> 00:49:09.920
Did any campuses use this as a proactive and an opportunity to look at themselves in the mirror?
00:49:10.000 --> 00:49:12.239
And of course this is happening.
00:49:12.559 --> 00:49:14.480
Could we prevent more of this?
00:49:14.719 --> 00:49:17.039
Do you think campuses, did any fraternities?
00:49:17.119 --> 00:49:18.159
I mean, truly, I mean it.
00:49:18.400 --> 00:49:23.920
I would love to see a fraternity come out and say, this is now our mission.
00:49:24.079 --> 00:49:32.800
Our whole mission is to acculturate and nurture and support men to being anti-violence leaders.
00:49:32.960 --> 00:49:35.760
And that's all we're doing from now on.
00:49:35.920 --> 00:49:37.679
We're not that that's it.
00:49:37.840 --> 00:49:46.400
Now, I don't know what their membership looks like because I know that there are men who would be very attracted to that mission, and I know there are men who wouldn't be.
00:49:46.559 --> 00:49:51.920
But part of me is like, IFC, this could be such a moment for you to be transformed.
00:49:52.159 --> 00:50:09.119
I know one of those chapters, and they were right out of the box, right out of the gate with a social media post that just said, this is how we feel about this horrible incident, and you should know if you come to our house, you will be safe.
00:50:09.360 --> 00:50:18.320
And it wasn't just uh platitudes, not the right word, but it wasn't just a defensive, like, we're gonna get ahead of this with the messaging.
00:50:18.559 --> 00:50:19.840
Like, I know them.
00:50:20.159 --> 00:50:24.960
And when you said you don't, I you wonder what what do they look like?
00:50:25.519 --> 00:50:30.800
You you can kind of tell they're more diverse and who they recruit.
00:50:30.960 --> 00:50:32.320
Um, they're kind.
00:50:32.639 --> 00:50:41.360
They were quick to report things and do care reports for their members and admit when things weren't good.
00:50:41.519 --> 00:50:43.440
So I see little sparks of hope.
00:50:43.599 --> 00:50:46.480
I started this kind of in the dumps, but there's hope.
00:50:46.719 --> 00:50:55.199
And I guess what I want to see is the national orgs doing that six months, eighteen months, 32 months from now, right?
00:50:55.280 --> 00:51:01.039
Like I want them to see the moment, but I don't want them to rest in the moment.
00:51:01.440 --> 00:51:01.840
Dr.
00:51:02.000 --> 00:51:05.679
Anthony, sure do appreciate you coming back so soon.
00:51:06.000 --> 00:51:08.079
Oh, thanks for letting me come back.
00:51:08.159 --> 00:51:12.639
It was funny when you emailed me, and I I initially got your email and I was like, oh, I don't know.
00:51:12.800 --> 00:51:15.440
That feels like touching a hot stove.
00:51:15.599 --> 00:51:17.440
I don't know if I need to touch a hot stove.
00:51:17.519 --> 00:51:21.360
And then as I was replying, I was like, oh, I got some things to say here.
00:51:22.000 --> 00:51:22.239
Yeah.
00:51:22.559 --> 00:51:23.920
As it turns out.
00:51:24.400 --> 00:51:27.679
I was trying to avoid it, and then Kurt texted me.
00:51:27.920 --> 00:51:29.360
I'm like, oh yeah.
00:51:30.320 --> 00:51:34.400
No, I think you're right not to avoid it, but I I also think it's right.
00:51:34.559 --> 00:51:48.159
Like I said, I just I don't want to spend any more energy playing investigator on I don't want to spend any energy playing investigator on a case where I am not positioned to do it well, and there's too much good work to do.
00:51:48.400 --> 00:51:52.320
There's too much good work that's already right in my neighborhood to do.
00:51:52.800 --> 00:51:53.199
Yeah.
00:51:53.840 --> 00:51:54.159
Yep.
00:51:54.480 --> 00:51:55.039
And you are.
00:51:55.360 --> 00:51:55.840
We'll see.
00:51:56.079 --> 00:51:58.079
But we've all got good work to do.
00:51:58.400 --> 00:51:59.360
Y'all are doing good work.
00:51:59.440 --> 00:52:04.079
I really appreciate these convers I really appreciate being part of them, but I appreciate listening to them.
00:52:04.320 --> 00:52:13.360
Like it's really good, authentic conversation, and I feel like there's not enough spaces for that.
00:52:13.679 --> 00:52:14.480
I agree.
00:52:14.639 --> 00:52:15.119
Yeah.
00:52:15.599 --> 00:52:21.840
The conversations for me still feel endless when people ask, like, aren't you gonna run out of things to talk about?
00:52:22.000 --> 00:52:24.719
Like as long as there's a world.
00:52:26.159 --> 00:52:27.440
Still things to talk about.
00:52:27.679 --> 00:52:28.559
Always something new.
00:52:28.960 --> 00:52:29.360
Yeah.
00:52:29.519 --> 00:52:31.280
Well, thank you all so much.
00:52:36.159 --> 00:52:36.559
Ms.
00:52:36.719 --> 00:52:40.719
Behavior is written and produced by Colette Shaw and Kurt Doan.
00:52:40.880 --> 00:52:46.880
Theme music was written and performed by Kevin McLeod from NCompotech.com.
00:52:47.199 --> 00:52:48.320
You can contact Ms.
00:52:48.480 --> 00:52:49.599
Behavior at Ms.
00:52:49.760 --> 00:52:52.320
BehaviorCollege at gmail.com.
00:52:52.559 --> 00:52:56.559
That's msbehaviorcollege at gmail.com.
00:00:09.759 --> 00:00:11.679
Hi everybody and welcome to Ms.
00:00:11.839 --> 00:00:12.480
Behavior.
00:00:12.640 --> 00:00:16.079
We are the podcast for college student conduct professionals.
00:00:16.320 --> 00:00:17.440
My name is Colette.
00:00:17.920 --> 00:00:18.480
And I'm Kurt.
00:00:18.800 --> 00:00:19.199
Hi y'all.
00:00:19.280 --> 00:00:19.760
I'm Christy.
00:00:20.079 --> 00:00:20.960
Christy's coming back.
00:00:21.120 --> 00:00:27.679
You may have heard her a few weeks ago when we talked about a different topic than we're going to talk about today.
00:00:27.839 --> 00:00:31.679
We promised to have Christy back to talk about academic misconduct.
00:00:31.760 --> 00:00:35.439
And we're going to pull the rug out one more time because Dr.
00:00:35.520 --> 00:00:47.600
Christy Anthony comes from a background with some pretty significant sexual violence and Title IX experience, but also working really successfully with Greek chapters.
00:00:47.840 --> 00:00:56.399
We feel like we can't go much longer without talking about Cornell, but we're not going to talk about Cornell today.
00:00:56.479 --> 00:01:04.239
We want to talk about some broader issues that hopefully Jane Doe and the Cornell situation are making us all talk about.
00:01:04.480 --> 00:01:06.640
Welcome Christy and Kurt to this.
00:01:06.799 --> 00:01:09.359
I don't know, this is a tough conversation for me.
00:01:09.599 --> 00:01:14.000
I mean, I think it's it's really hard, right?
00:01:14.159 --> 00:01:15.920
There is so much pain everywhere.
00:01:16.079 --> 00:01:29.120
And we were talking beforehand about I think it's really tempting for a lot of people to dive into sort of the the true crime seems to trivialize it in a way I don't think anyone means to.
00:01:29.200 --> 00:01:35.920
That's sort of like the fact pattern of the case and and trying to be a detective and figure out what happened.
00:01:36.000 --> 00:01:45.120
And and I really appreciate a chance to take a different approach because the reality is none of us are gonna have all the information we would need to do that well.
00:01:45.519 --> 00:01:57.760
But I I do think a lot about how frustrating it is that it feels like the needle hasn't moved in the way we would have expected it to move.
00:01:57.920 --> 00:02:10.560
You know, I was at NASA Strategies in January and I was listening to Chris Linder, who's a truly like an amazing researcher in this area, and any chance anyone has an opportunity to hear her speak, you should.
00:02:10.879 --> 00:02:15.439
And she was pointing out the data hasn't changed really in 40 years.
00:02:15.680 --> 00:02:28.080
I think for people who work in or adjacent to sexual misconduct on campus, Jane's story is at an end of the spectrum, but it's not out of the realm.
00:02:28.240 --> 00:02:33.840
I don't know anyone who works in this area who thought this could never happen here.
00:02:34.000 --> 00:02:36.879
This is so extreme as to be unbelievable.
00:02:36.960 --> 00:02:49.599
And at some level, you know, while while there's very good emotional and data reasons to believe survivors, it's a little sad that so many of us find this so credible at the same time.
00:02:49.919 --> 00:02:59.439
I uh just a few mornings ago, I had a virtual coffee with one of the chi-fi alums from the last college I worked at.
00:03:00.159 --> 00:03:07.919
And I just disclosed to you all three years ago I was the Chi-Fi administrator of the year from their national office.
00:03:08.080 --> 00:03:10.080
And that was something I was really proud of.
00:03:10.159 --> 00:03:11.360
And I was proud of them.
00:03:11.520 --> 00:03:20.080
Them being the national and them being the chapter on our campus that came back from a significant hazing incident in a in an honorable way.
00:03:20.159 --> 00:03:22.319
But he's like, Calad, I'm I'm quitting.
00:03:22.479 --> 00:03:26.639
I can't, I just can't anymore seeing what happened at Cornell.
00:03:26.879 --> 00:03:35.520
And besides that, my wife, she would just kill me if I supported a fraternity chapter right now, let alone a chi-fi chapter.
00:03:35.680 --> 00:03:36.560
What do you think?
00:03:36.879 --> 00:03:48.080
I was like, Well, I would say that, you know, problems that led us to where we met each other, some of it was because alumni weren't involved and they didn't know our men.
00:03:48.240 --> 00:03:55.680
I can't, you know, you've got to do what is right for you, but walking away isn't going to make it better.
00:03:56.000 --> 00:04:00.560
But I have to confide to you two, I am wondering.
00:04:00.719 --> 00:04:14.560
I I think that Greek life might be broken enough, or this case is showing us why everything is such a fight to to try to have the good experiences we have, and there are lots and lots of them.
00:04:14.719 --> 00:04:19.920
So I I'm just sitting in this place of I I'm not sure where I stand anymore.
00:04:20.240 --> 00:04:26.000
Part of the difficulty is there aren't easy answers for any of this.
00:04:26.160 --> 00:04:31.120
Like, you know, we were talking about I I think about amazing fraternity men.
00:04:31.279 --> 00:04:39.199
I have known who were leading the anti-violence efforts on campuses I have been on.
00:04:39.360 --> 00:04:44.399
And in part, I think felt able to do that because of their fraternity affiliation.
00:04:44.639 --> 00:04:47.519
And also, I'm not affiliated, right?
00:04:47.680 --> 00:04:48.879
So and never have been.
00:04:49.040 --> 00:04:53.680
And so it it feels like me critiquing a culture I'm not a part of.
00:04:53.839 --> 00:04:58.000
And and I will be honest, don't feel like I deeply understand.
00:04:58.160 --> 00:05:11.439
But I I guess I haven't yet heard the reason that social fraternities, social IFC fraternities in particular, are making our campuses net better.
00:05:11.680 --> 00:05:16.000
I am confident there are chapters and and communities where that is happening.
00:05:16.240 --> 00:05:24.879
And it's worth being really clear what is being reported from Cornell could happen on a campus without fraternities.
00:05:25.120 --> 00:05:29.120
It does happen on campuses without fraternities.
00:05:29.439 --> 00:05:30.240
We know that.
00:05:30.480 --> 00:05:43.600
I think it's really time to think about it way past time to think about what we can do to really drive out groups that we know are at high risk.
00:05:43.759 --> 00:05:52.720
And that includes hyper-masculine identity groups and groups that base a lot of their socialization around alcohol.
00:05:52.959 --> 00:05:58.160
That isn't only social fraternities, but it is social fraternities.
00:05:58.399 --> 00:06:05.279
I think I'm in a very similar headspace to Christy because I I don't I've not worked in a Greek life area.
00:06:05.519 --> 00:06:08.879
I don't have any sort of affiliation with Greek life.
00:06:08.959 --> 00:06:15.360
So it is for me very much feeling like an outsider trying to assess something that I don't understand.
00:06:15.519 --> 00:06:21.199
And where I keep going is, you know, what system allowed for this to happen.
00:06:21.360 --> 00:06:23.519
And I don't think it's any one system.
00:06:23.759 --> 00:06:33.920
I think it is a Venn diagram of one particular chapter and a culture on a campus, and probably things that I don't even know.
00:06:34.160 --> 00:06:41.360
And I don't know what what pieces of that system are fixable and which ones need to be more closely examined.
00:06:41.680 --> 00:06:47.439
I think Chrissy, you made a great point about net net value to a college campus and to a college experience.
00:06:47.600 --> 00:06:55.439
I've heard lots of people come away from Creek Life experiences saying that, you know, they made some of the best friends they ever made in college.
00:06:55.600 --> 00:07:01.120
But how quickly does that get undone when something like this happens on any college campus?
00:07:01.360 --> 00:07:05.199
It's got national ripples to it that can't be ignored.
00:07:05.519 --> 00:07:22.399
I know enough healthy chapters where the net value was about belonging, where most of the men, or at least a lot of the men in those chapters, would tell similar stories about they didn't find their people when they came to campus.
00:07:22.560 --> 00:07:33.920
They felt like they were the outsider, and then they found this chapter where they they could just be themselves and be vulnerable with other men and feel accepted for who they totally were.
00:07:34.079 --> 00:07:36.000
Like a college should look at that.
00:07:36.079 --> 00:07:38.160
Like these were places of belonging.
00:07:38.319 --> 00:07:47.439
And then they they were the chapters that were trying to hold the line, holding their peers accountable for being just good men.
00:07:47.680 --> 00:07:51.120
If we got rid of fraternal life, we could do that.
00:07:51.279 --> 00:07:56.240
But where are those places of belonging that would take the place of that?
00:07:56.399 --> 00:08:09.920
But it's so hard, even for those chapters, trying to find a faculty and staff advisor that wanted to work with them and really know them and put in the time to visit the house and come to meetings with them.
00:08:10.639 --> 00:08:11.920
Oh no, I don't want to do it.
00:08:12.000 --> 00:08:12.879
It's a fraternity.
00:08:13.040 --> 00:08:15.279
I don't believe in fraternities.
00:08:15.360 --> 00:08:17.600
Uh well, do you believe in these men?
00:08:17.759 --> 00:08:30.720
If they don't have support, so that there's just the campus support, but all the other pieces of this of national chapter support, parents, like where are families in this stuff?
00:08:30.879 --> 00:08:39.200
I don't know if it's just too heavy a lift right now for institutions to just set the right things in motion for things to be successful.
00:08:39.600 --> 00:08:50.559
Having obviously grown up in the United States in the 70s and 80s, I I think of Greek life and fraternities and sororities as a feature of college campuses.
00:08:50.720 --> 00:08:58.399
That they, you know, when you think about college, it might be one of the top five things that people think about when they're naming off what you would find on a college campus.
00:08:58.559 --> 00:09:01.600
But as you're talking, it made me think, what if it's not a feature?
00:09:01.679 --> 00:09:11.679
What if it's a symptom of a void that we as employees at colleges, we have not fulfilled on something that makes people feel like they belong.
00:09:11.840 --> 00:09:23.840
So this system comes up to fill that void, then we spend decades wrangling with it and trying to figure out how did it, how do we control it or how do we how do we shape it?
00:09:24.080 --> 00:09:28.159
When the real question should have been like, why does it exist to begin with?
00:09:28.320 --> 00:09:34.080
And if it exists to make people feel like they have a place on campus, could we be doing something different?
00:09:34.159 --> 00:09:46.320
I'm not saying get rid of Greek life, but I'm saying if it is fulfilling something, is that something we can replicate and take out all the pieces that aren't working right now and replace them with things that we know work from a research perspective?
00:09:46.559 --> 00:09:51.600
I have no idea what that looks like, but uh feature versus symptom just jumped into my head.
00:09:52.240 --> 00:10:06.480
I keep going back to the episode with Craig Allen, the the model that he's using um at Texas Christian, where all the RAs, their only job is just to know, to know as many people as they can know.
00:10:06.559 --> 00:10:23.200
And then the next step is to connect those people so that they have more networks and then to empower them to be part of governance, but part of planning, part of everything, so that they truly are part of the fabric of that place.
00:10:23.519 --> 00:10:26.480
They have institutionalized caring.
00:10:26.639 --> 00:10:34.559
And I think when you have those places, I can only speculate that this kind of violence would be quite rare.
00:10:34.799 --> 00:10:36.480
You look skeptical, Christy.
00:10:36.720 --> 00:10:37.679
I am skeptical.
00:10:38.159 --> 00:10:39.200
It's interesting, right?
00:10:39.279 --> 00:10:52.080
I mean, sexual misconduct has been an almost accidental and constant part of my work, and it it is not what I went into student affairs to focus on, and it has been a focus.
00:10:52.240 --> 00:11:01.360
And and I don't, you know, I I think back to a very elite school where I worked, and they were launching their very first sexual misconduct climate survey.
00:11:01.600 --> 00:11:11.519
And it was a professor who was leading the team, who like had a background in statistics and social sciences, so well qualified, right?
00:11:11.919 --> 00:11:25.039
Um, and the professor was also an alum, and he said, Well, I'm sure we will have a much lower rate of sexual violence than any of the other institutions doing this survey.
00:11:25.200 --> 00:11:28.720
And I said, Tell me what you think that's really interesting.
00:11:28.960 --> 00:11:30.240
We're private institutions.
00:11:30.399 --> 00:11:33.840
Private institutions tend to run a little above the national average.
00:11:34.159 --> 00:11:40.159
We didn't have fraternities, but we had some similar social organizations that operated the same way.
00:11:40.320 --> 00:11:44.159
And and he said, Well, we're, you know, fill-in-the-blank elite school.
00:11:44.320 --> 00:11:46.480
And I just think our students are smarter than.
00:11:46.559 --> 00:11:56.240
And I was sort of like, Oh, I'll get you your whole salary per whole year, way more than I made, that will be slightly above the national average.
00:11:56.480 --> 00:11:57.200
And we were.
00:11:57.440 --> 00:12:05.279
I don't want to say, and I don't believe in my gut and in my heart that sexual violence cannot be defeated.
00:12:05.360 --> 00:12:07.440
And and maybe I'm wrong about that.
00:12:07.519 --> 00:12:09.279
Maybe I just need to believe that.
00:12:09.600 --> 00:12:20.240
And also, I don't see anything in research or my experience that says this one thing will be the cure, right?
00:12:20.399 --> 00:12:21.600
Kurt, I think you're right.
00:12:21.679 --> 00:12:24.639
I think it's several systems that are failing.
00:12:24.879 --> 00:12:31.519
I think fraternities are failing, not just the women around them, but the young men in them for sure.
00:12:31.759 --> 00:12:47.039
I I think back to a dean of mine from Semester C posted on Facebook, I am exhausted of seeing colleges and universities raked over the coals, but no one is calling out the national organization that is making money off of our students.
00:12:47.279 --> 00:12:50.879
So I think it's time to call out the national organizations more.
00:12:51.120 --> 00:13:07.679
I think of schools, including some I've worked with, where they poured a lot of resources into Title IX, thinking that that would solve it, forgetting that Title IX is the floor of what we need to do to address sex and gender-based discrimination.
00:13:07.840 --> 00:13:10.080
And the floor isn't nearly good enough.
00:13:10.399 --> 00:13:16.879
Part of me wonders how much of it is we got to a point where we were okay checking the box.
00:13:17.039 --> 00:13:20.480
We were okay saying everyone did their online module.
00:13:20.639 --> 00:13:25.200
There's not a ton of research indicating that the online modules make a lot of difference.
00:13:25.440 --> 00:13:32.879
There's some, I don't mean, and I don't think they're terrible, but it's not the same as having people practice bystander intervention.
00:13:33.120 --> 00:13:50.879
It's not the same as having students get used to discussing this with their peers and addressing what can seem to many of us like minor incidental moments that create a culture that says it's okay to ignore the humanity of your peer.
00:13:51.039 --> 00:13:52.080
I don't think it's one thing.
00:13:52.240 --> 00:14:00.879
I wish it was as easy as getting rid of fraternities, which isn't an easy thing to do, nor are we sure it's the right thing to do, but I don't think it's enough.
00:14:01.200 --> 00:14:16.320
I heard a student speaker at Cornell say, stop calling it the Cornell 7, because this happened because of a culture of sexual violence that is permissible, not just at Cornell, I think nationwide.
00:14:16.480 --> 00:14:23.120
But the fact that nobody took a step back from this situation and examined it critically.
00:14:23.440 --> 00:14:27.360
I sent Colette a text message about two weeks ago.
00:14:27.519 --> 00:14:32.320
I was in the middle of something I can't I said, I can't get into this now, but like I'm on fire about this.
00:14:32.480 --> 00:14:38.240
I I saw some of the initial stuff coming out about what was going on at Cornell, and I thought this is mind-boggling to me.
00:14:38.559 --> 00:14:44.399
I said to Colette when she reached out on doing this, I said, here's the thing, I actually haven't followed this in great detail.
00:14:44.720 --> 00:14:53.600
I have long suspected, having been on the inside of thankfully, blessedly, nothing that's high profile, but some high profile cases.
00:14:53.919 --> 00:15:00.080
I am guessing that some of what is coming out is lacking the nuance that would make it the whole truth.
00:15:01.360 --> 00:15:15.360
And here's the other thing that just sits unhappily with me as a citizen, as someone who believes in higher education, and as a parent of a girl, very few people have said, oh, that can't be true.
00:15:15.600 --> 00:15:17.200
There has to be more to it.
00:15:17.440 --> 00:15:20.720
Which says to me, we don't trust excellent schools.
00:15:20.799 --> 00:15:26.559
And Cornell's an excellent school, and I know really good people doing wonderful educational work there.
00:15:26.799 --> 00:15:30.240
But we don't trust them to take care of our kids in this way.
00:15:30.559 --> 00:15:37.039
Because whatever it is that actually happened, and we will probably never know the full dimension of this.
00:15:37.120 --> 00:15:41.039
Because I don't know if anyone ever gets to know the full dimension of anything like this.
00:15:41.200 --> 00:15:43.039
But we found we find it believable.
00:15:43.200 --> 00:15:47.600
The young men who facilitated sexual assault were assigned an essay.
00:15:47.759 --> 00:15:49.120
We find that believable.
00:15:49.279 --> 00:15:50.240
I'll say this.
00:15:50.399 --> 00:15:54.080
I've worked at schools that would never have done something like that.
00:15:54.240 --> 00:15:58.559
I've worked at schools that wouldn't have even given an essay.
00:15:58.720 --> 00:16:02.399
So I can believe there are schools that do that.
00:16:02.559 --> 00:16:05.039
I it doesn't sound like Cornell was bad.
00:16:05.360 --> 00:16:09.279
There is nuance, is what the breadcrumbs would say.
00:16:09.519 --> 00:16:12.720
But there are places that just don't get it.
00:16:12.879 --> 00:16:13.679
I'm gonna go back.
00:16:13.919 --> 00:16:25.600
You were talking about that um every school now probably has one of those online education courses that every first-year student has to take as a hoop to jump through before they start school, and it's about consent.
00:16:25.840 --> 00:16:32.080
And there is a a place for that of just some definitions of consent, knowing what that means.
00:16:32.320 --> 00:16:35.279
But this is not a consent education issue.
00:16:35.440 --> 00:16:38.799
What what happened is a violence issue.
00:16:39.200 --> 00:16:50.320
Even if this whole thing were a fiction and we were reading it, we should there's so many lessons we could all be learning from it instead of trying to pick it apart for its credibility.
00:16:50.480 --> 00:16:52.480
I wrote a little note to myself too.
00:16:53.039 --> 00:17:11.839
If we got rid of chapters, the really the great chapters that I worked with, one of the reasons I held them up is because it was not unusual after an interfraternity council meeting, after IFC, for students to say, like, hey, Dean Shaw, can we talk to you about something?
00:17:12.079 --> 00:17:17.119
We've got a guy that when he drinks, he gets really handsy with women.
00:17:17.279 --> 00:17:18.559
We're gonna need your help.
00:17:18.720 --> 00:17:20.960
He cannot be in our chapter.
00:17:21.279 --> 00:17:31.359
Or uh, if it was during new member processes, they'd have a little meeting with the other fraternity chapter presidents, like, you don't want this person.
00:17:31.519 --> 00:17:35.759
We're not gonna recruit this guy, and we think you should not either.
00:17:35.920 --> 00:17:40.079
And then that guy was gonna find another place to go be a predator.
00:17:40.400 --> 00:17:56.079
So it wasn't perfect that they had these secret meetings, but at least I knew for our students looking for a party on a Friday night, and like that's a house you could probably go to and feel like you would be pretty safe if we shut all those chapters down.
00:17:56.240 --> 00:17:58.559
I there would be a net loss to that.
00:17:59.039 --> 00:18:01.359
Call it, did you affiliate as an undergrad?
00:18:01.599 --> 00:18:02.000
I didn't.
00:18:02.079 --> 00:18:16.480
You know, I've got a t-shirt from the service fraternity I was in, Omicron Delta Kappa, and on um Where Your Letters Day for faculty and staff, I would pull that shirt out, but I felt like a poser because I'm I was an independent really.
00:18:16.799 --> 00:18:36.480
I was just thinking about like, okay, so so let's imagine if we wiped social fraternities, and I think we'd have to do sororities per Title IX, interestingly, what that would mean for our divine nine and NGC groups unless, um, unless sure of.
00:18:36.640 --> 00:18:39.759
I was just thinking about like, what would my undergrad experience have been like?
00:18:39.920 --> 00:18:44.960
I went to an undergraduate institution that was about 40% social Greek affiliates.
00:18:45.039 --> 00:18:48.000
Like it was a high percentage, and I didn't affiliate.
00:18:48.079 --> 00:18:51.039
And interestingly, almost none of my friends did.
00:18:51.200 --> 00:19:04.160
And I'm just I'm just under like, what was it about the social life I was in and choosing that made that feel just fine and like a rich social campus experience?
00:19:04.400 --> 00:19:15.119
And Kurt, I know you said congenital, and I don't know what the like Greek breakdown was at your alma mater, but I I just think it's sort of interesting of like, okay, alumni would be really mad.
00:19:15.279 --> 00:19:28.319
And as we've said, it wouldn't solve the sexual violence issues on our campuses because getting rid of the fraternity doesn't get rid of the rapists or the people who will silently tolerate it.
00:19:28.559 --> 00:19:32.240
I I think there's research to say that it would lower risk for sure.
00:19:32.559 --> 00:19:34.559
What really would happen to social life?
00:19:34.720 --> 00:19:39.359
Would there be other organizations that would fill that void and and would they be better?
00:19:39.519 --> 00:19:46.160
Or would the people who are seeking the worst of that environment find a way to replicate it somewhere else?
00:19:46.319 --> 00:19:46.720
I don't know.
00:19:46.799 --> 00:19:49.920
I mean, I have experiences that go both ways on that.
00:19:50.240 --> 00:19:53.440
I I never got involved in Greek life.
00:19:53.599 --> 00:19:58.400
I went to Penn State for my undergrad, big Greek life enterprise.
00:19:58.559 --> 00:20:02.000
As an introvert, it was not something I was interested in.
00:20:02.079 --> 00:20:05.039
Like the thought of living in what looked like chaos to me.
00:20:05.200 --> 00:20:16.240
My only experience was going to fraternity parties with friends and thinking this is every weekend that there is this level of chaos in a house, this amount of alcohol.
00:20:16.400 --> 00:20:27.839
I'd rather, you know, have a quiet evening in my room and have some jello shots with friends than have, you know, hundreds of strangers traipsing through my home and spilling stuff all over the place.
00:20:28.000 --> 00:20:30.400
So, really, for me, it was about not being messy.
00:20:30.559 --> 00:20:37.039
Um, but I do think a couple things come to mind with this.
00:20:37.279 --> 00:20:45.200
To what degree do students now come to campus expecting to have that kind of experience as part of their college experience?
00:20:45.359 --> 00:20:58.799
I keep seeing statistics about this group of students that are going through higher education right now are drinking less, uh, but they're also lonelier than any other generation of students that went through higher education.
00:20:58.960 --> 00:21:01.759
So this may be a good opportunity.
00:21:02.000 --> 00:21:22.160
I'm not saying get rid of Greek life, but yeah, if we're going to introduce something that is meant to fill that void, now's a great time to do it because it is a group of students that maybe are hungry for connection and also less interested in having a drunk vendor be the cornerstone of their higher education experience.
00:21:22.319 --> 00:21:29.759
And I'd I also acknowledge that I think there are a percentage of people on college campuses that are sexual predators.
00:21:29.839 --> 00:21:36.079
And immediately, Colette, when you're think when you were talking about this secret meeting of we don't want this person, you don't want them either.
00:21:36.319 --> 00:21:48.319
To me, how do you intervene as an administrator and say, let's connect with this person and try to figure out like how we can help them be different on a college campus than that?
00:21:48.480 --> 00:21:57.119
Because I agree, I think they're going to find an outlet for that, unfortunately, and it's going to result badly for one or more people on a college campus.
00:21:57.359 --> 00:21:59.519
Well, I think some of their culture was.
00:22:00.079 --> 00:22:01.680
A bigger systemic problem.
00:22:02.079 --> 00:22:09.839
The way Title IX, and I can't even remember which flavor of Title IX over the last decade it was.
00:22:10.000 --> 00:22:23.440
And different institutions interpreted it differently, but making it a requirement that a a sexual assault case would only move forward if um an alleged victim made a formal complaint.
00:22:23.599 --> 00:22:27.440
Some campuses made what a formal complaint looked like.
00:22:27.680 --> 00:22:28.720
Very arduous.
00:22:28.799 --> 00:22:31.759
And so almost no one ever did it.
00:22:32.480 --> 00:22:39.759
And so the story then would become students go and make a complaint at Title IX and then nothing happens.
00:22:40.000 --> 00:22:42.160
So don't even bother to go there.
00:22:42.400 --> 00:22:49.599
If there was going to be justice, it was going to happen at the student org level that, like, well, at least we have standards.
00:22:49.759 --> 00:22:52.000
And we're the only parties in town.
00:22:52.160 --> 00:22:56.160
So if we kick you out, you know, we've taken care of business here.
00:22:56.400 --> 00:22:59.759
I do think there is a part of that that that was broken.
00:22:59.839 --> 00:23:04.240
And so students felt like they they had to just do it within their own power.
00:23:04.480 --> 00:23:11.279
And also, I think about times I've seen students do that and cause huge amounts of harm.
00:23:11.519 --> 00:23:16.400
So I was on a campus where that was happening multiple times a semester.
00:23:16.720 --> 00:23:26.720
And we had one group that told a complainant, choosing that word very deliberately, that she had to appear before them.
00:23:26.880 --> 00:23:30.400
And they questioned her like they were on law and order.
00:23:30.559 --> 00:23:32.799
And it was horrible for her.
00:23:33.039 --> 00:23:37.440
So much so the criminal case sort of then also fell apart.
00:23:37.599 --> 00:23:41.839
She'd been pursuing a criminal case and they ruined the criminal case.
00:23:42.079 --> 00:23:49.279
And that person, that respondent, did eventually leave campus, but the complainant was left more traumatized.
00:23:49.519 --> 00:23:50.720
The whole group was.
00:23:50.960 --> 00:23:54.319
The district attorney was furious, understandably.
00:23:54.559 --> 00:24:00.319
I mean, I think what I wish schools would do more, you know, put a pin in Title IX for a minute.
00:24:00.480 --> 00:24:11.279
Title IX is gonna do what it's gonna do, but it doesn't have to be the only a formal Title IX doesn't have to be the only option that's right to give our students.
00:24:11.839 --> 00:24:12.480
That's right.
00:24:12.799 --> 00:24:20.079
It's one of my frustrations with schools that for reasons I understand, they're like, all right, we've done everything we have to do under Title IX.
00:24:20.160 --> 00:24:25.920
I don't know any school that's doing it perfectly, but we've done it, we've checked all the boxes, so we're done here.
00:24:26.079 --> 00:24:40.640
We don't need to fund anything else, we don't need to educate in any other way, we don't need to organize anything else, and we definitely don't need another path of resolution when in reality, what we know is there's lots of complainants and respondents that want other alternatives.
00:24:40.799 --> 00:24:45.200
And I'm not saying that there shouldn't be a place for a form.
00:24:45.440 --> 00:24:48.559
I'm not one of the people who thinks like campuses shouldn't do this anymore.
00:24:48.799 --> 00:24:51.279
Because all the people who are saying this should be for the police.
00:24:51.519 --> 00:24:52.319
Oh, I know.
00:24:52.559 --> 00:24:53.359
Go look over there.
00:24:53.440 --> 00:24:56.079
I'm not sure that's going so great either, right?
00:24:56.240 --> 00:25:01.680
But I do think as campuses, we need to stop thinking that once we've done Title IX, we've done enough.
00:25:01.759 --> 00:25:10.960
Because Title IX doesn't require an informal resolution process, but that is an option that lots of students want and benefit from.
00:25:11.200 --> 00:25:11.440
Yes.
00:25:21.359 --> 00:25:27.039
I may have different, but that's an incredibly important resource for complainants and respondents.
00:25:27.440 --> 00:25:45.680
I think one of the things we as schools, and like I said, I think we should be holding lots of other entities accountable, including these national orgs, whether it's for a fraternity or whether it's for an honor society or whether it's for the kickball league, they should be stepping up also.
00:25:45.920 --> 00:25:47.680
But there's a gap to be filled in.
00:25:47.759 --> 00:26:04.160
And incidentally, a lot of that gap has been filled for generations by people doing victim advocacy work and grassroots anti-violence work, and they have been pushed out as that area became more professionalized and got more expensive for schools.
00:26:04.640 --> 00:26:10.799
And I think it's time to try to start bringing some of those folks back into our spaces.
00:26:11.119 --> 00:26:14.880
One of the groups that's being sued uh is the sorority.
00:26:15.119 --> 00:26:15.680
Yeah.
00:26:15.920 --> 00:26:19.599
I haven't read the basis for the suit against the sorority.
00:26:19.759 --> 00:26:21.119
I know they're being sued.
00:26:21.200 --> 00:26:24.720
I know it's by Jane Doe, and that's pretty much all I know.
00:26:25.039 --> 00:26:31.920
I'll do it a disservice here, some pregaming stuff, but let me pull the camera back even further.
00:26:32.079 --> 00:26:50.160
When I was talking about families, I do think there's some something to look at with money, with finances and cisgender white men who make a lot of money and really traditional gender family roles that students have seen played out.
00:26:50.319 --> 00:27:00.720
But I do think there is some complicit behavior that can generate as as tradition among sororities and fraternities that plays into this.
00:27:00.799 --> 00:27:09.039
So I I think that's not being talked about, but pretty interesting that maybe this is our chance to take a look at it.
00:27:09.279 --> 00:27:25.039
Yeah, I mean, I think it's interesting to think about how much that gender split replicates social norms that are not in and of themselves violent, but that have a very high correlation with violence.
00:27:25.279 --> 00:27:32.720
I'm thinking about the book The Secret Life of Sororities by uh oh gosh, Alexandra Robbins.
00:27:32.799 --> 00:27:36.400
I love her, and I'm a shame I didn't remember her name.
00:27:36.640 --> 00:27:54.799
But relationships between, you know, XYZ sorority and XYZ fraternity, and the tradition is we always take each other to the formals, and you don't want to make a report that's gonna look bad on XYZ fraternity because we want to make sure that we go to their formal because that's the best formal.
00:27:55.119 --> 00:28:19.680
So for bigger campuses where there are hierarchical um statuses of fraternities and sororities, I think it creates a pressure not to report, to drink as much as your chapter wants you to drink and wear what you're supposed to wear and like old, old stuff uh that we know is not healthy, but there's a home for it.
00:28:20.000 --> 00:28:26.400
Yeah, it's the sense, right, that that the organization is worth more than the individual.
00:28:26.880 --> 00:28:37.119
And not because the organization is made up of individuals, but just because like the organization has intrinsic value, and really the healthy organization, its value comes from the humans.
00:28:37.359 --> 00:29:03.039
And individuality, like the group pictures I see for sometimes are like, oh my god, they had to all buy the same matching silver sequin pumps and silver leather jackets and just for one photograph, and the money and the status, and I think of college as the place where you're exploring identity and getting to try on different identities to see like who is me?
00:29:03.279 --> 00:29:05.039
What is this thing called me?
00:29:05.440 --> 00:29:15.519
And being part of a group that's saying, here's what it is, you have to look like this and buy this and date this and sleep with this.
00:29:15.759 --> 00:29:18.319
I really like to disrupt some of that.
00:29:18.720 --> 00:29:30.319
I do wonder, thinking about colleges and universities as a system, but also Greek life, this whole idea of tradition and an investment in like here's how we do things, here's our culture.
00:29:30.559 --> 00:29:36.960
At what point does what what does it take for you to have to disrupt that culture and that tradition?
00:29:37.279 --> 00:29:55.839
How far does it need to go before somebody says we have to peel this back and really closely examine it and figure out what works in the year 2026 that we've carried forward from 1906, what no longer works, what are we prepared to give up, and what do we want to take with us that is the good of it?
00:29:56.000 --> 00:30:01.200
Because I do think there are probably, I imagine it wouldn't be still happening if there were good things that came out of it.
00:30:01.359 --> 00:30:04.480
What we see on the news is is the bad stuff, unfortunately.
00:30:04.720 --> 00:30:13.920
I also think about people like you, Colette, that remain committed to Greek life as part of their professional career, and they are also in some ways tied to this.
00:30:14.079 --> 00:30:26.960
How it must feel for you as a career professional who's put so much time and effort into uplifting Greek life to look at something that has failed so colossally in this one particular instance and others as well.
00:30:27.119 --> 00:30:28.640
Where is your head at with all that?
00:30:29.039 --> 00:30:36.400
The first part of what you said, I was thinking people are going to be looking to their conduct people and want things taken away.
00:30:36.559 --> 00:30:39.359
You messed up, so you don't get a chapter anymore.
00:30:39.519 --> 00:30:47.680
But there has to be equal, at least equal amount of time wondering where do we where do we create create the stuff that is good?
00:30:47.839 --> 00:30:48.079
Yeah.
00:30:48.319 --> 00:30:52.559
Christy, last time you were on um, we were talking about something completely different.
00:30:52.640 --> 00:30:57.440
And I had posted a little social media clip that just said, can't we be more creative?
00:30:58.000 --> 00:31:05.119
And a faculty person got on our social media and said, No, no, no, we cannot.
00:31:05.920 --> 00:31:07.440
No, that's not allowed.
00:31:07.680 --> 00:31:13.359
And they went on, no, I've put in 25 years and I'm exhausted, and students hate us.
00:31:13.519 --> 00:31:18.400
The society is anti-education and the administration is tearing us to pieces.
00:31:18.559 --> 00:31:22.160
Like, no, but I still would I would post that again.
00:31:22.319 --> 00:31:24.640
Like, can't we be more creative?
00:31:25.119 --> 00:31:28.480
I don't want to be told I have to do more.
00:31:28.640 --> 00:31:30.720
And I'm actually here for that.
00:31:31.359 --> 00:31:33.759
I'm here for let's not do more.
00:31:34.000 --> 00:31:36.400
I do think that you know what?
00:31:36.559 --> 00:31:40.640
Last time we were talking about that taking attendance doesn't create accountability.
00:31:40.720 --> 00:31:45.519
And also here, like clicking through a module doesn't create accountability in the way we want.
00:31:45.680 --> 00:31:47.039
And here's here's the other thing.
00:31:47.200 --> 00:31:49.920
Okay, this is my other soapbox about Cornell.
00:31:50.079 --> 00:31:50.880
I'm gonna get on.
00:31:51.039 --> 00:31:58.720
I am exhausted of hearing people, middle-aged people like me, say, why didn't anyone intervene?
00:31:58.880 --> 00:32:03.759
It's so easy because it's not easy, it's not that easy.
00:32:03.920 --> 00:32:09.119
And I say that as a middle-aged person who is like, I was never cool.
00:32:09.359 --> 00:32:11.680
I am so far from cool now.
00:32:11.839 --> 00:32:14.240
I have no coolness points I'm worried about.
00:32:15.200 --> 00:32:17.920
I literally do this for a living.
00:32:18.160 --> 00:32:22.559
I literally have written a dissertation on bystander intervention.
00:32:22.720 --> 00:32:33.599
And when I've intervened twice on Metro, which seems to be the main place I end up doing no three times on Metro, which seems to be the main place I'm doing bystander intervention in my life.
00:32:33.680 --> 00:32:35.920
Y'all, the Metro in DC are perfectly safe.
00:32:36.079 --> 00:32:36.559
Go there.
00:32:36.720 --> 00:32:37.920
This is happening everywhere.
00:32:38.160 --> 00:32:45.039
Every time I do it, my heart is in my throat and I feel nauseous and I can feel my pulse increasing, and I'm getting sweaty.
00:32:45.200 --> 00:32:56.799
I'm not saying we shouldn't do it, and I'm not saying we shouldn't expect it of each other, but let's stop pretending it's something that you get good at and comfortable with by watching someone do it in a 30-second clip.
00:32:56.960 --> 00:32:57.599
It's hard.
00:32:57.680 --> 00:33:01.200
And and again, I'm not worried about my peers disapproving of me.
00:33:01.440 --> 00:33:01.519
Right.
00:33:01.680 --> 00:33:05.039
For stars, my peers think it's pretty badass.
00:33:05.200 --> 00:33:07.920
But I have, you know, other people who don't.
00:33:08.160 --> 00:33:10.160
My tween doesn't think it's cool.
00:33:10.319 --> 00:33:12.319
And still it's hard for me to do.
00:33:12.480 --> 00:33:21.039
And so I don't think we should be pretending that bystander intervention is easy, but we should be acting like it's necessary and it's life-saving.
00:33:21.200 --> 00:33:22.640
That is what we should be doing.
00:33:22.799 --> 00:33:25.279
So I I think that's where I am for creativity.
00:33:25.359 --> 00:33:33.599
Like I want to see more creativity, but not in the sense of people telling us, here's exactly what you must create and how you must create it, fill out this worksheet.
00:33:33.759 --> 00:33:38.880
I want to see creativity in the sense of like, how do we engage students more?
00:33:39.359 --> 00:33:51.759
How do we have people who are younger and cooler than me, and there are lots of them out there, telling us how to do this in a way that reaches the folks we need it to reach?
00:33:52.000 --> 00:34:05.599
And how do we also find a way to say to students, you know, I saw this youth psychologist on, I don't know what social media platform the other day saying that there's no point in trying to tell a young person, like, don't worry about being cool.
00:34:05.759 --> 00:34:09.360
Okay, heard, but how then how do we make this cool?
00:34:09.440 --> 00:34:20.960
And I think that's gonna take more creativity, and that's the kind of thing that we need more flexible roles and flexible goals, that it can't just be Title IX, check the box.
00:34:21.039 --> 00:34:23.039
That's essential, but it's not getting it done.
00:34:23.360 --> 00:34:25.440
That's not meeting the moment our students ran.
00:34:25.760 --> 00:34:32.159
You know, the irony, the alum that contacted me to say, Yeah, I'm I'm quitting the chapter.
00:34:32.239 --> 00:34:33.679
I just I can't anymore.
00:34:33.840 --> 00:34:41.760
He's for the past two years, he's been teaching this little leadership course for the actives and coming back to campus to teach the class.
00:34:41.920 --> 00:34:45.599
And he had called me two weeks ago to see if I could connect him.
00:34:45.679 --> 00:34:50.639
He's like, Remember that speaker you had, come talk to the alumni and do a little workshop for us.
00:34:50.880 --> 00:34:52.320
Like, yeah, I remember him, Cal.
00:34:52.639 --> 00:34:57.519
He was one of the peer health educators, and he did a bystander workshop for the alums.
00:34:57.840 --> 00:35:04.639
And uh, he's like, Yeah, I'd really like to connect and uh I'd like to make sure we do that workshop for the brothers.
00:35:04.800 --> 00:35:08.400
And then the Cornell news came out, and he's like, I quit.
00:35:08.480 --> 00:35:16.480
And I'm like, the thing they need most of all is your bystander education that you were just about to do, not walking away.
00:35:16.719 --> 00:35:16.960
Yeah.
00:35:17.119 --> 00:35:27.039
Well, and this is one of the reasons I think campuses would do well to talk to their local victim advocacy group and say, like, what can you come do for us?
00:35:27.679 --> 00:35:31.360
Those people have been in the trenches of this for years.
00:35:31.599 --> 00:35:32.639
They know the work.
00:35:32.800 --> 00:35:40.800
At some level, to the betterment of our communities, they're not interested in checking off the box for the floor of Title IX, right?
00:35:41.039 --> 00:35:45.760
And and again, uh, I wouldn't say like they're amazing people doing Title IX work.
00:35:45.920 --> 00:35:47.360
I'm not denigrating the work.
00:35:47.440 --> 00:35:49.039
I'm just saying it's not sufficient.
00:35:49.199 --> 00:35:49.440
Right.
00:35:49.599 --> 00:36:04.400
And I think the more we look to attorneys and compliance managers whose job is an important one to satisfy the federal requirements for the institution, the less we're looking at what else can we do?
00:36:04.559 --> 00:36:08.000
Because we can we can do more than we have done for sure.
00:36:08.159 --> 00:36:16.079
I have seen a Title IX or whatever the office is called job description, and it was pretty much keep us in compliance.
00:36:16.239 --> 00:36:16.480
Yep.
00:36:16.639 --> 00:36:21.920
Like, oh no, my idealism was I felt so naive.
00:36:22.079 --> 00:36:22.239
Yeah.
00:36:22.400 --> 00:36:23.199
Like, really?
00:36:23.679 --> 00:36:24.800
Oh crap.
00:36:25.039 --> 00:36:33.440
I mean, listen, the the best Title IX coordinator in the world is not survivor-centered and they're not respondent-centered.
00:36:33.599 --> 00:36:38.880
I remember explaining that to a student once when they were like, so, so you're on my side, right?
00:36:38.960 --> 00:36:40.719
I was wanting a Title IX process.
00:36:40.800 --> 00:36:44.079
And I was like, the side I'm on is the institution's side.
00:36:44.239 --> 00:36:47.039
Well, that doesn't sound great right now.
00:36:47.519 --> 00:36:51.119
And it's not honestly reassuring to either party.
00:36:51.280 --> 00:36:52.719
And I'm not saying it should be.
00:36:52.800 --> 00:36:57.760
There is value to that neutral, impartial, highly structured process.
00:36:57.920 --> 00:36:59.039
It's just not enough.
00:36:59.280 --> 00:36:59.760
That's all.
00:36:59.920 --> 00:37:14.559
And I think a lot of schools have hoped from 2011, from April 2011 onward, that complying with the federal government would also be enough to end sexual misconduct.
00:37:14.639 --> 00:37:19.440
But when it comes to choosing, if they have to choose, they're going to comply with the federal government.
00:37:19.599 --> 00:37:22.159
And I guess I'm saying I don't think it's enough to make choice.
00:37:22.559 --> 00:37:38.159
I'm a big advocate for the creativity idea because I I don't think this is, I can almost feel the tension of, you know, you've got people clinging to the past and tradition and a group that wants to move forward and make things better.
00:37:38.320 --> 00:37:43.760
And when you've got that tension on both sides, the only thing that's going to happen is it's going to get ripped apart anyway.
00:37:44.000 --> 00:37:49.440
So why not collaborate and work together and figure out creative solutions to these issues?
00:37:49.599 --> 00:37:52.480
I'm that's maybe that's too uh optimistic.
00:37:52.639 --> 00:37:55.199
What's the name of the optimistic woman?
00:37:57.360 --> 00:37:58.880
Oh Pollyanna?
00:37:58.960 --> 00:37:59.599
Yeah, Pollyanna.
00:37:59.840 --> 00:38:00.320
Pollyanna.
00:38:01.199 --> 00:38:01.760
That chick.
00:38:02.079 --> 00:38:05.760
See, I was hearing a very different tone of that at the beginning of that censor.
00:38:06.159 --> 00:38:11.440
I was hearing about like um creative destruction.
00:38:11.679 --> 00:38:13.840
Like smash it all down.
00:38:14.159 --> 00:38:14.400
Yeah.
00:38:14.480 --> 00:38:15.840
I mean build something different.
00:38:16.079 --> 00:38:23.920
I thought that that should be the topic of this episode is that if we were going to start this from the beginning again.
00:38:24.159 --> 00:38:25.920
And I kept getting stuck.
00:38:26.079 --> 00:38:29.280
There are so many forces at play here.
00:38:29.519 --> 00:38:32.000
And then my mind is always like, what is the simplest?
00:38:32.159 --> 00:38:34.320
Like, don't overcomplicate it.
00:38:34.480 --> 00:38:37.840
But a successful model is is challenging.
00:38:38.159 --> 00:38:39.760
A successful model is challenging.
00:38:40.000 --> 00:38:47.519
And also, I mean, so here is the thing I think in the moments when I do not feel very hopeful about this work.
00:38:47.760 --> 00:39:05.280
Um, a really, really good friend of mine, whose name is Shannon, who has been doing victim advocacy work for we've got to be going on 30 years now, and is still doing it, said really early on, we were working together and we were like, little baby student affairs people.
00:39:06.239 --> 00:39:12.800
And this was before the 2011 deer colleague letter and and all that, right?
00:39:13.280 --> 00:39:18.159
We were working with the student conduct director who just sort of said, I don't know what you want us to do.
00:39:18.320 --> 00:39:19.920
The system is the system.
00:39:20.079 --> 00:39:21.280
And bless her.
00:39:21.440 --> 00:39:26.480
My my 25-year-old friend said, Well, that's the thing about systems.
00:39:26.800 --> 00:39:29.679
We built them and we can build them differently.
00:39:29.840 --> 00:39:31.760
And I think it's something we forget.
00:39:31.840 --> 00:39:34.719
Like, I I just think about her saying that to me all the time.
00:39:34.800 --> 00:39:36.400
It was a life-changing thing.
00:39:36.639 --> 00:39:40.239
Because I was like, Oh my god, all the broken systems are things we built.
00:39:40.559 --> 00:39:42.239
We can build them differently.
00:39:42.480 --> 00:39:49.360
It's work and it's hard, and it, you know, we don't necessarily know where it will go or how it will turn out.
00:39:49.519 --> 00:39:50.480
But you know what?
00:39:50.639 --> 00:39:57.599
Humans built Cornell, humans built Kai-Fi, humans built all of these places.
00:39:57.760 --> 00:39:59.280
We can build them differently.
00:39:59.599 --> 00:40:02.480
I remember a few years ago, a local chapter.
00:40:02.719 --> 00:40:11.760
I don't think they sued their national, but they may have written an open letter to their national and said, We need you to be better.
00:40:12.000 --> 00:40:12.880
You are not.
00:40:13.039 --> 00:40:14.320
I I what's that?
00:40:14.719 --> 00:40:17.760
And I think it had to do with race equity.
00:40:17.920 --> 00:40:19.360
Um I think it did.
00:40:19.519 --> 00:40:21.119
Was it was it SAE?
00:40:21.199 --> 00:40:23.840
That feels like an SAE thing or a hold on.
00:40:24.079 --> 00:40:28.400
And that the the national chapter failed to meet the moment at the time.
00:40:28.559 --> 00:40:30.719
Now I don't know what has happened since.
00:40:30.880 --> 00:40:33.280
But I was so proud of those young men.
00:40:33.440 --> 00:40:35.599
Like that was something.
00:40:35.760 --> 00:40:46.159
And I have worked with men that I think would do that, that would hold their national to a higher standard if they knew choices or had options.
00:40:46.480 --> 00:40:47.760
Now I'm like, who was this?
00:40:47.840 --> 00:40:48.800
I do remember this.
00:40:48.960 --> 00:40:49.519
Hold on.
00:40:49.840 --> 00:40:50.719
I might have it.
00:40:50.880 --> 00:40:53.199
So I think this is what you were talking about.
00:40:53.360 --> 00:40:58.719
Um this is from Jeffelle to cite my sources, December 11th, 2014.
00:40:58.880 --> 00:41:00.320
No, this was too early.
00:41:00.639 --> 00:41:09.519
But it was um Alpha Kappa Alpha had advised members not to wear their Greek letters while protesting police brutality.
00:41:09.840 --> 00:41:13.199
And then the national changed their position.
00:41:13.440 --> 00:41:14.639
But there's something else.
00:41:14.960 --> 00:41:19.519
It was a group that if you just saw their letters, you would think atypical frat.
00:41:19.920 --> 00:41:23.199
But uh, it was like, wait a minute, what did they do?
00:41:23.360 --> 00:41:25.920
This is a they all used action.
00:41:26.239 --> 00:41:39.119
Kappa Alpha Order at Southwestern in 2020, August 2020, tried to end their Confederate traditions, and then national organizations suspended them.
00:41:39.199 --> 00:41:40.239
This was at Southwestern.
00:41:40.639 --> 00:41:41.199
That's right.
00:41:41.280 --> 00:41:42.400
They suspended them.
00:41:42.639 --> 00:41:43.360
That's what it was.
00:41:43.519 --> 00:41:43.920
Yes.
00:41:44.239 --> 00:41:48.400
And the chapter said that's fine, we're not doing this anymore.
00:41:48.559 --> 00:41:49.119
That's what it was.
00:41:49.440 --> 00:41:57.599
You know, we've had a lot of conversations lately about how higher education has to evolve in the face of changing demographics.
00:41:57.760 --> 00:42:02.639
That, you know, there aren't as many students, so we have to change the way we do business.
00:42:02.800 --> 00:42:09.119
I spend a lot of time on TikTok, probably more than a 50-plus year old person should.
00:42:09.280 --> 00:42:18.400
What impresses me the most about this generation of students that's entering into college is their focus on advocacy and inclusion.
00:42:18.719 --> 00:42:28.559
And I do think part of this moment that we're talking about is will Greek life be a fulfilling thing for them, or is it gonna be something that rubs against the grain of who they are?
00:42:28.719 --> 00:42:33.679
Or will they look at it and say, there's some good stuff about it, but some of these policies are gross.
00:42:33.840 --> 00:42:41.679
They're either gonna push for change or they're going to find something that fits more with how this generation is identifying, I think.
00:42:41.920 --> 00:42:44.159
Gen Alpha is not to be messed with.
00:42:47.679 --> 00:42:50.400
I mean, Colonel, I think that's a really interesting challenge, right?
00:42:50.480 --> 00:42:53.119
And and to the point we've been making throughout, right?
00:42:53.199 --> 00:43:01.039
It's not only fraternities and also it is a little bit of a challenge, I want to say fraternities, especially to the alum in the headquarters.
00:43:01.280 --> 00:43:08.320
You're telling us that you deserve to stay in spite of litany of observations and incidents.
00:43:08.960 --> 00:43:09.519
Prove it.
00:43:10.239 --> 00:43:11.119
Prove it right now.
00:43:11.280 --> 00:43:12.880
This is a moment you can step up.
00:43:13.920 --> 00:43:20.559
You can take all that power, all that money, all that positionality, and you can start making our campuses a better way.
00:43:20.639 --> 00:43:26.480
But part of that will mean undermining some of the gender hegemony that you have profited off of.
00:43:26.960 --> 00:43:28.079
So prove it.
00:43:28.320 --> 00:43:30.079
That could be really powerful.
00:43:30.400 --> 00:43:35.760
There's something about money that's tied into that too, that's making me money and power.
00:43:36.000 --> 00:43:46.880
Christy, when you were talking about working at an elite place, the more elite places I worked at, the more the gender stuff was tied to money.
00:43:47.039 --> 00:43:47.280
Yeah.
00:43:47.440 --> 00:43:59.760
And I even remember in my history of higher ed class from a million years ago, learning how at college graduations, at the beginning of American higher ed, the graduates who were all men were lined.
00:44:00.159 --> 00:44:03.840
Up according to how rich their parents, their fathers were.
00:44:04.079 --> 00:44:09.039
And then when that got mixed up, uh fraternities were created.
00:44:09.119 --> 00:44:15.440
And it was a sort of a marker of how much you made, depending on which chapter you joined.
00:44:15.519 --> 00:44:18.639
So you could still keep your financial status.
00:44:18.800 --> 00:44:27.440
And I feel like there's something in this that where capitalism is at the root of what is going on.
00:44:27.760 --> 00:44:37.119
I mean, right, capitalism says you're as valuable as your contribution to GDP, says the person who never took econ.
00:44:37.440 --> 00:44:40.000
So I'm probably using all the words wrong.
00:44:40.400 --> 00:44:50.960
And let's be honest, for a long time, women's contribution to GvP was always very significant, but wasn't counted in the same way.
00:44:51.199 --> 00:44:59.039
And yeah, I mean, I do think it's this moment of like, how much do you value each other's humanity and how much do you see that?
00:44:59.360 --> 00:45:01.679
And how much do you think you can get away with it?
00:45:01.840 --> 00:45:08.159
There's a whole lot of research that says very, very privileged people think they can get away with it.
00:45:08.320 --> 00:45:14.159
Not not necessarily that they think it's something that everyone should be doing, but they won't get caught or they won't get punished.
00:45:14.320 --> 00:45:14.880
And they do.
00:45:15.119 --> 00:45:17.039
Yeah, no, there's plenty of evidence to say.
00:45:17.440 --> 00:45:27.760
I'll just say in a hypothetical case, if the men in this particular type of situation aren't prosecuted, they will probably be fine financially.
00:45:28.320 --> 00:45:31.920
I think it's interesting the school newspaper published their names.
00:45:32.000 --> 00:45:46.559
And and I've made a choice not to look at their names, but I'm not gonna lie, if I was hiring uh I had a Cornell male graduate in my queue of potential employees, I would be going to find those names.
00:45:46.800 --> 00:45:48.400
I still think they would be fine.
00:45:48.559 --> 00:45:50.559
Oh, I I think you're right for sure.
00:45:50.880 --> 00:45:55.440
There are employers that would say, Oh, you were one of the ones that was railroaded.
00:45:55.679 --> 00:45:56.239
Yeah.
00:45:56.480 --> 00:45:56.960
Mm-hmm.
00:45:57.199 --> 00:45:57.519
Yeah.
00:45:57.920 --> 00:46:05.679
I do uh wonder what all this looks like in the age of digital and social media vigil vigilanteism.
00:46:06.079 --> 00:46:11.360
Uh I I mean, Claude, I sent you a screen video that I took.
00:46:11.440 --> 00:46:15.119
Uh Cornell left all their comments on social media open.
00:46:15.280 --> 00:46:23.519
And doesn't matter what the video clip was that they shared, the comments were overwhelmingly about this incident.
00:46:23.679 --> 00:46:30.320
There's, and rightfully so, a lot of rage around what happened, and people are not editing themselves.
00:46:30.480 --> 00:46:31.280
So I don't know.
00:46:31.440 --> 00:46:32.960
They might be okay financially.
00:46:33.440 --> 00:46:46.880
Socially, I do wonder in this new digital world, having your name out there and having people just doxing folks, I think there is a court of public opinion that is starting to look very different than maybe it did 15 or 20 years ago.
00:46:47.199 --> 00:46:50.639
But then I'm that restorative practice is part of me.
00:46:50.800 --> 00:46:52.159
They're all humans.
00:46:52.400 --> 00:46:54.400
They have to want to repair their harm.
00:46:54.639 --> 00:46:55.360
They do.
00:46:55.599 --> 00:46:59.440
And first it starts with acknowledging that there was harm.
00:46:59.679 --> 00:47:16.800
Right now, people are breaking it into, well, you know, this one was the worst, but this one only did this, and this person only texted, and this person only replied to the text, and this like it's all it's it's and it's one thing that we all that's that we need to look at.
00:47:16.960 --> 00:47:22.079
This was it's all a system with different parts, different machinery.
00:47:22.320 --> 00:47:22.480
Yeah.
00:47:22.639 --> 00:47:24.000
I mean, Claude, I agree with you.
00:47:24.079 --> 00:47:28.400
I think restorative work has a place in sexual miscontact work.
00:47:28.639 --> 00:47:31.440
And also they have to want to repair the harm.
00:47:31.599 --> 00:47:36.800
And to your point, I think that gets harder when the stakes are raised in the way Kurt described.
00:47:37.360 --> 00:47:37.679
Right?
00:47:37.840 --> 00:47:53.760
If I have to if I have to acknowledge my harm to the person I harmed and a few people adjacent to them, that is entirely different than if I, a 20-year-old, have to acknowledge my harm to the world.
00:47:54.239 --> 00:48:02.400
And right now they're having to navigate a a criminal justice system that is by definition an adversarial system.
00:48:02.639 --> 00:48:06.800
So they the rules are you must deny.
00:48:06.960 --> 00:48:14.880
I mean, you don't have to, but for the most part, you are expected to deny this and fight that to the very end.
00:48:15.280 --> 00:48:19.039
And I'm sure lawyers and their parents are telling them that.
00:48:19.360 --> 00:48:20.000
Right.
00:48:20.400 --> 00:48:20.800
Yeah.
00:48:21.199 --> 00:48:31.840
And so this is the story arc I'm talking about could be decades long if if there's any possibility at all.
00:48:32.079 --> 00:48:36.639
I don't want to read about somebody killing themselves because of this.
00:48:38.559 --> 00:48:40.000
I thought a lot about that.
00:48:40.320 --> 00:48:41.119
Could we be better?
00:48:41.199 --> 00:48:50.639
I mean, could could we just be better in all aspects of how these things are prevented, dealt with, dealt with it in the long term?
00:48:50.960 --> 00:48:53.280
I have a feeling we'll be back to revisit.
00:48:53.519 --> 00:48:55.119
I don't think we fixed it.
00:48:55.440 --> 00:49:02.400
No, but I'd like to see even in six months or in a year when the next hot thing is on the headlines.
00:49:02.719 --> 00:49:09.920
Did any campuses use this as a proactive and an opportunity to look at themselves in the mirror?
00:49:10.000 --> 00:49:12.239
And of course this is happening.
00:49:12.559 --> 00:49:14.480
Could we prevent more of this?
00:49:14.719 --> 00:49:17.039
Do you think campuses, did any fraternities?
00:49:17.119 --> 00:49:18.159
I mean, truly, I mean it.
00:49:18.400 --> 00:49:23.920
I would love to see a fraternity come out and say, this is now our mission.
00:49:24.079 --> 00:49:32.800
Our whole mission is to acculturate and nurture and support men to being anti-violence leaders.
00:49:32.960 --> 00:49:35.760
And that's all we're doing from now on.
00:49:35.920 --> 00:49:37.679
We're not that that's it.
00:49:37.840 --> 00:49:46.400
Now, I don't know what their membership looks like because I know that there are men who would be very attracted to that mission, and I know there are men who wouldn't be.
00:49:46.559 --> 00:49:51.920
But part of me is like, IFC, this could be such a moment for you to be transformed.
00:49:52.159 --> 00:50:09.119
I know one of those chapters, and they were right out of the box, right out of the gate with a social media post that just said, this is how we feel about this horrible incident, and you should know if you come to our house, you will be safe.
00:50:09.360 --> 00:50:18.320
And it wasn't just uh platitudes, not the right word, but it wasn't just a defensive, like, we're gonna get ahead of this with the messaging.
00:50:18.559 --> 00:50:19.840
Like, I know them.
00:50:20.159 --> 00:50:24.960
And when you said you don't, I you wonder what what do they look like?
00:50:25.519 --> 00:50:30.800
You you can kind of tell they're more diverse and who they recruit.
00:50:30.960 --> 00:50:32.320
Um, they're kind.
00:50:32.639 --> 00:50:41.360
They were quick to report things and do care reports for their members and admit when things weren't good.
00:50:41.519 --> 00:50:43.440
So I see little sparks of hope.
00:50:43.599 --> 00:50:46.480
I started this kind of in the dumps, but there's hope.
00:50:46.719 --> 00:50:55.199
And I guess what I want to see is the national orgs doing that six months, eighteen months, 32 months from now, right?
00:50:55.280 --> 00:51:01.039
Like I want them to see the moment, but I don't want them to rest in the moment.
00:51:01.440 --> 00:51:01.840
Dr.
00:51:02.000 --> 00:51:05.679
Anthony, sure do appreciate you coming back so soon.
00:51:06.000 --> 00:51:08.079
Oh, thanks for letting me come back.
00:51:08.159 --> 00:51:12.639
It was funny when you emailed me, and I I initially got your email and I was like, oh, I don't know.
00:51:12.800 --> 00:51:15.440
That feels like touching a hot stove.
00:51:15.599 --> 00:51:17.440
I don't know if I need to touch a hot stove.
00:51:17.519 --> 00:51:21.360
And then as I was replying, I was like, oh, I got some things to say here.
00:51:22.000 --> 00:51:22.239
Yeah.
00:51:22.559 --> 00:51:23.920
As it turns out.
00:51:24.400 --> 00:51:27.679
I was trying to avoid it, and then Kurt texted me.
00:51:27.920 --> 00:51:29.360
I'm like, oh yeah.
00:51:30.320 --> 00:51:34.400
No, I think you're right not to avoid it, but I I also think it's right.
00:51:34.559 --> 00:51:48.159
Like I said, I just I don't want to spend any more energy playing investigator on I don't want to spend any energy playing investigator on a case where I am not positioned to do it well, and there's too much good work to do.
00:51:48.400 --> 00:51:52.320
There's too much good work that's already right in my neighborhood to do.
00:51:52.800 --> 00:51:53.199
Yeah.
00:51:53.840 --> 00:51:54.159
Yep.
00:51:54.480 --> 00:51:55.039
And you are.
00:51:55.360 --> 00:51:55.840
We'll see.
00:51:56.079 --> 00:51:58.079
But we've all got good work to do.
00:51:58.400 --> 00:51:59.360
Y'all are doing good work.
00:51:59.440 --> 00:52:04.079
I really appreciate these convers I really appreciate being part of them, but I appreciate listening to them.
00:52:04.320 --> 00:52:13.360
Like it's really good, authentic conversation, and I feel like there's not enough spaces for that.
00:52:13.679 --> 00:52:14.480
I agree.
00:52:14.639 --> 00:52:15.119
Yeah.
00:52:15.599 --> 00:52:21.840
The conversations for me still feel endless when people ask, like, aren't you gonna run out of things to talk about?
00:52:22.000 --> 00:52:24.719
Like as long as there's a world.
00:52:26.159 --> 00:52:27.440
Still things to talk about.
00:52:27.679 --> 00:52:28.559
Always something new.
00:52:28.960 --> 00:52:29.360
Yeah.
00:52:29.519 --> 00:52:31.280
Well, thank you all so much.
00:52:36.159 --> 00:52:36.559
Ms.
00:52:36.719 --> 00:52:40.719
Behavior is written and produced by Colette Shaw and Kurt Doan.
00:52:40.880 --> 00:52:46.880
Theme music was written and performed by Kevin McLeod from NCompotech.com.
00:52:47.199 --> 00:52:48.320
You can contact Ms.
00:52:48.480 --> 00:52:49.599
Behavior at Ms.
00:52:49.760 --> 00:52:52.320
BehaviorCollege at gmail.com.
00:52:52.559 --> 00:52:56.559
That's msbehaviorcollege at gmail.com.
