WEBVTT
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I assume you all edit.
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Wait, I should have said that before you started, but great.
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Hello and welcome to Ms.
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Behavior, the podcast for college student conduct professionals.
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My name is Colette.
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And I'm Kurt.
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And we have another host today that is joining us.
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Dr.
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Anthony, why don't you tell us who you are and how have you infiltrated our ranks?
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Hi, y'all.
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My name is Christy Anthony.
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I use she, her pronouns.
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And preferred formality is first name.
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So Christy.
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Um and Colette and I started talking last year, I think after the conference, Colette, but I honestly can't quite.
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Oh, we got connected because John Lowry did a case study that we both sat in and had lots of thoughts on.
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And you kindly reached out to me.
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And we just sort of continued the conversation and found that we have a number of like different career bits in common.
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Yeah.
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That was fun.
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Yeah, we were guest judges in a case study competition for grad students.
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And I I had feelings about it.
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And I just I'd always seen Christy your posts on conduct community threads.
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Yes.
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I think I told you, like, I always want to weigh in, but if you've gotten there first, you usually have already said what I was going to say.
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I'll appreciate all the seconding because sometimes I'm like, am I out here solo on this thought?
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I don't know.
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Yeah, I just needed to like another soul to tell me if I was am I missing something big?
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But also, like you are one of our celebrities in our upcoming Halloween program, the Ms.
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Betraiters Halloween event.
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And we're coming in costume if we want, right?
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Oh, yes.
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I am encouraged, highly encouraged.
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Uh, for those of you who have not heard yet, uh, we are developing an online Zoom-based version of the Traitors.
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Uh, you don't have to have watched The Traders ever, but it certainly could help.
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And uh, we're doing this in October, which is, as we've discussed previously, kind of a crazy time of year in the higher education student conduct world.
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Uh, so just offering an online social outlet for people who might want a little bit of levity during uh a crazy time.
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And uh, I've seen Collette's outfit, uh, her Claudia Winkleman outfit.
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It is Primo.
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Claudia Winkleman.
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Should I know the reference?
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She is the host of the UK version.
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Um, she's the Alan Cumming of the UK version.
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She is phenomenal.
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She has a very distinctive physical look with her makeup and hair and bangs.
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And um fashion.
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My sweater has arrived.
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Oh, nice.
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And Kurt, I didn't tell you to my very first uh boss in student affairs, the woman that hired me to be an orientation director, my sophomore year of college, was in town and she wanted to go tour the Hershey factory.
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Yeah.
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And what a good time of year to go to Hershey, is right before Halloween.
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So we went and we did the make your own um chocolate bar experience.
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And I have a misbehavior chocolate bar that we could give away as a prize to the winners.
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That's amazing.
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Or faithful, whoever wins.
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Right now, though, everyone that has signed up wants to be a competitor.
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So we actually, if you're listening and you're feeling nervous, we actually need some people that are just gonna join the Zoom as observers who are like bystanders, who get in the Zoom um chat and can say, like, I think Christy's lying because her eye was twitching when she talked, and I think Kurt's lying.
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And so we need people that can kind of be like prices right, shouting out what they're picking up on.
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I'm very excited.
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So this is uh Wednesday, October 28th at 7 p.m.
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It's a live event and uh free, free, free.
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And we are considering it professional development because it is testing your ability to sniff out credibility, ask good questions, all the good stuff.
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I'm hoping that somebody puts in for professional development leave for this and uh reports back.
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Uh yeah.
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We'll see what happens.
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Can you um prove that I was at your workshop?
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How many CEUs do I get for this, right?
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At least one.
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And I think we have to have a badge for it as well that you can put in on LinkedIn.
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So yeah.
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Oh.
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All right, that's on you, man.
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Okay.
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I think we really should.
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That would be amazing.
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Okay.
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Well, I've got two things that uh we've got Christy here for that we're gonna break down.
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And one is the concept of the gig job.
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Yeah.
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So I believe Christy, you and I are both in in gig work right now, correct?
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Yeah.
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So I've done it on and off since this came to me accidentally, truly, in 2013.
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I was in a job I loved.
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Um, and I decided to do a crazy thing and quit that job without another job to do semester at C, which was amazing.
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And someone reached out to me, Colleen Ryan, and said, Hey, some folks at Curry are due to go on family leave right after you get back.
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So how about you cover for them for a semester?
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And I said, I don't know.
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That sounds weird.
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How would that work exactly?
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And Rachel King, who was one of the two people who was going on leave, reached out to me and said, You you really can do this, it will be great.
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And I loved it.
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So I filled in for those two folks at Curry, and then I filled in for folks at Absen, and I just sort of kept doing that for a little bit.
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And then I had to take leave from work entirely to deal with some family stuff with my parents and having a new baby, um, and all those like things.
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And then someone came to me and said, Well, how about if you work part-time for us instead of full-time?
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And again, I was sort of thinking, is that how this works?
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Can we do this?
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But it was great, it was a perfect fit for my life at that time.
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I actually never would have left that job, but got the opportunity to move back home to the DC area and worked remotely, and that was in 2017 and 18.
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I worked remotely part-time for an academic year and then started leading a team and really took that as an opportunity to build that, just as people had done for me.
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So when I had folks who were going on family leave or taking a semester and needed to work part-time so they could do a graduate assistantship or you know, whatever it was, I found I could hire really great, overqualified people who, like me, had just been in a stage of life where full-time permanent work wasn't a great fit.
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And that got our team some fresh blood, some external critique that wasn't part of the intended package, but was a great side benefit and really just broadened everyone's network.
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I'm no longer working on a campus doing independent consulting, and some of that has been gig work.
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Less of that than I thought it might be a tend to do more like investigations or project work, but even so, it's some of the same idea of like, hey, can you just come in and do a smaller work commitment to the university or to the college or to the nonprofit?
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And we will benefit from that, and hopefully you will too.
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So it has become something I just think, gosh, especially as we're all seeing these budget crunches between federal research dollars and loss of international students.
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I was able to do it in a way that was budget neutral when I was leading a team, but I think I I think that it just could be a huge budgetary option for places to consider.
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But but it's interesting to think how many people, just like me, sort of have.
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I mean, I think I had a failure of imagination, right?
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Like I I couldn't picture it, I didn't know it.
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And so I was hesitant to do it when it first fell into my lap.
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I agree.
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I I thought I was retiring.
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Yeah.
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And I've heard that.
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I was open, like if some if the universe brought me something that was like really interesting, great.
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And a friend was like, Oh, you could work part-time, you can work on Zoom.
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And I told a friend, I'm like, Yeah, I'll only do it if I don't have to move, and I'll only do it part-time.
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And the very next day, somebody reached out to her, like, do you know anybody that would do student conduct?
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And I also only wanted to do conduct, I didn't want to do all the other the bit team, all that other stuff.
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I am happier than I ever remember.
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And like you did um, you did an online webinar earlier this year about just let's get creative, folks, about different work environments.
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So there's this, there's the us, like, hey, we're doing it, we're doing creative stuff, and it works for the school, it works for us, works for the students.
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And I want to talk about they uh like I think there are a lot of advantages for students for us being online.
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But then I have friends too that are being told you better get back to work.
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And I I sent you all, I don't know if you saw the article this week.
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It's called the FaceTime Ultimatum, and it was mainly about faculty.
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This was from it was from the Chronicle, talking about faculty members who were told you have to be back five days a week, 40 hours.
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And um, some of them were adjuncts that were commuting into hours one way to be on campus.
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And so they're just quitting.
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They like the gig work, and it works for them as adjuncts because a lot of times they're trying to cobble together multiple jobs into one amount of money that can pay the rent, pay the grocery bill.
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So I feel like there's this tug of war right now in our industry.
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So if you had, I don't know, if you had to make a plug in favor of getting more creative.
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Or well, first, I don't want to exclude Kurt, do you have thoughts on this?
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Because you're in a unique vantage point.
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It's complicated because I know that you know, at our school we have this whole rule about uh remote work in contiguous states, and there are policy-related issues at play at all times.
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But I think for me, if the work can be done remotely, you know, there are accountabilities built in, then why not let it?
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I I think the I only skimmed part of that article, but the weird part for me was that it applied even to professors that were working fully, like they were teaching entirely online.
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So the logic is just not there uh for me.
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There were so many moments in that Kurt, I completely agree, where it's like no one has thought very critically or in a nuanced way or in a complex way about this, right?
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I fully understand the benefits for some people of being in person.
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And so I think if you're teaching students who are on campus or who come to campus, having some in-person presence is really, really important.
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And also there are plenty of students who never come to campus or who rarely come to campus or who live on campus, but for one reason or another, going to an in-person office hour is significantly harder than going to a remote one.
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So Callett, I think you're right.
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There are real benefits to students for being able to access us remotely.
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I think of a so this was again when I was working remotely in 2017-2018, before anyone thought this was normal.
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I was working for a university in Massachusetts and I was living in Virginia, and I was doing an interview with a complainant in a sexual misconduct case.
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And I was asking the student to tell me sequence of events, right?
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It was an investigative interview, and they said, I I forget what they said, but they were describing what happened in the room.
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And I asked a clarifying question, and they they were in the room where it had happened, in their residence hall room.
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And they said, Do you just want me to show you?
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And they sort of stepped aside and could take me around the room without me ever having to enter the space inappropriately or in a way that didn't feel comfortable to either of us, and they could access me.
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I think about students who want to have their parents observe or join as a support person, but their parents live four states away.
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I guess I could do all that from my office on campus, but then you're narrowing the scope of who you can hire.
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I I think the one moment when I was like, oh, this really showed the defeat of logic and just like trying to get to a place that people could tolerate was that they didn't have to be on campus 40 hours a week, call it.
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They had to be on campus 37.5 hours a week.
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And it reminded me of my sister's condo association has a speed limit of 7.5 miles an hour.
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I said at one point, it's like, what is sound?
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That doesn't even show up on anyone's speedometer.
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What do you?
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And she was like, Some people wanted five, and some people wanted 10.
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So we all agreed on 7.5.
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And I was like, of course.
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Yeah.
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For me, the article, the thing I remember was the professor that was saying, All right, I come in, I do my office hour, I sit in an empty hallway, no one comes to my office hour, and then I go home.
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And I don't know how this is helpful.
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The argument can't end there.
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Because maybe their campus does need people to be on campus.
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And you sitting in your office is not there's more to the job than waiting for students to come to you.
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And could we be more creative?
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Yeah, it's just a very dualistic approach to employment, I think.
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I guess is the best phrase I can come up with.
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I need caffeine, I think.
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Um I it's an unnuanced approach, also, because to just broadly say we need everybody back on campus, it doesn't make sense for every role.
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Certainly if you work in maintenance facilities.
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There's not a remote option.
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And I think everybody understands that not all jobs are going to have a remote option.
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I also live in a rural area.
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I think it's very myopic to think that you're going to find somebody who wants to, you're going to find the best candidate for a certain kind of job who wants to live in your rural community.
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It's not for everybody.
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So, you know, we look at the difficulty of hiring data scientists or a data analyst position.
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You can do that job fully remote and find amazing people, or you can say, we are only going to hire somebody locally and you're going to get what you get at that point.
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Yeah, I mean, the argument I heard when I was a team leader advocating for my team to get an increase in remote time was, well, not everyone can do that.
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And I said, absolutely, I get that.
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But here's the data, and I had, you know, track my team's workload and how many students wanted to meet remotely anyway.
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And to your point about rural areas, in urban areas, there's very few student affairs professionals who can afford to live close to their urban university if they're not getting an on-campus apartment.
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So that became an issue.
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And and my response is, I get it.
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I get this isn't for everyone.
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And I don't think, and never advocated for my team to be a hundred percent remote.
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And I said, the folks who want remote work more are welcome to come work on my team if there's an opening.
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Like we'd be happy for that.
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But if they love residence life or late night programming or events management, yeah, that that comes with an in-person thing.
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And there's pros and cons to every job.
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So I I do always get baffled when it's like, well, we have to give everyone the same components because we don't do that no matter what.
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What's what's gonna be better for the campus, better for the student, not doing this weird calculus of who's working how many hours in person?
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Yeah, collect- I like your idea though, of like, if if we're going to have people be on campus more, maybe not a hundred hundred percent of the time, but more, do we wanna be more specific and aspirational about what they're doing with that time?
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So faculty, instead of sitting in your office waiting for students to come to you, are we giving you some funds to host a lunch drop-in session in the cafeteria and talk to students and be more visible?
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And does that better meet the needs of the community?
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I've I've known faculty who would have loved that and faculty who would have shied away from it.
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But it sounds like this university was already seeing faculty shy away from even office hours.
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So yeah.
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Been in two different uh community of practice that so these are with the our national governing group for conduct folks and ASCA um have kind of subcommittees.
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And I've been in two recently where supervisors were complaining about the work ethic of staffs.
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So I think there's also a dirty little secret that maybe people are saying that it's an equity issue, and really it's a supervisory issue that, well, so-and-so is not getting their work done.
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So they they need to be here so we can watch them.
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And I think that is a different problem that this this is not a solution.
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I mean, it reminded me very much of teachers I have worked with.
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So I used to teach high school.
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So teachers I've worked with, teachers I've had, teachers I've seen my kiddo had, who felt like a good learning environment was where all the students were sitting quietly at their desks getting as many worksheets done as possible.
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And that was the ideal learning environment.
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I think a little bit of little bit of chaos and disorder and energy is better than knowing exactly what everyone is doing and that everyone is following the plan at every step, right?
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So when my team was remote, we had this very robust chat.
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Did it always stay perfectly on topic?
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No, for sure.
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There were moments of like, oh my God, just had the best takeout lunch today.
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Here's the new place I recommend.
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But it was creative and energizing.
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I think allowing for more of that creativity and more different ways to access the workspace creates the learning environment we want.
00:20:00.400 --> 00:20:07.519
I certainly hope for staff and faculty, but I suspect also for students because they're influenced by how we experience the environment.
00:20:07.759 --> 00:20:14.960
Well, if they walk in our office and they see we're laughing, and that's their first thing, like that that sets a tone.
00:20:15.279 --> 00:20:18.880
You know, I think there's this growing imperative around culture.
00:20:19.119 --> 00:20:24.400
What does culture look like on your campus and developing a culture that attracts and retains people?
00:20:24.559 --> 00:20:32.480
I don't think you ever get a truly dynamic workplace culture by applying a broad brush to every situation.
00:20:32.640 --> 00:20:46.400
It requires nuance, it requires creativity, it requires that you understand all of the different roles on your campus and acknowledge that there may be different types of rules and work environments that work best for this.
00:20:46.640 --> 00:20:51.039
You're not going to get that if you just say everybody has to do everything the exact same way.
00:20:51.200 --> 00:20:53.519
That's not how workplace culture works.
00:20:53.680 --> 00:20:55.440
It's not how higher education works.
00:20:55.680 --> 00:20:57.599
But I think that's much harder work, right?
00:20:57.759 --> 00:20:58.720
That is.
00:20:59.200 --> 00:21:04.400
Much more attention, much more modification, much more adaptivity.
00:21:04.640 --> 00:21:13.039
And let's be honest, higher education institutions, by and large, are not well known for their quick and nimble changes of direction.
00:21:13.200 --> 00:21:14.400
That's not our strength.
00:21:14.720 --> 00:21:21.680
When you worked for me, Kurt, did I sit you down and do my like three pages of expectations?
00:21:22.160 --> 00:21:23.359
I don't remember.
00:21:23.519 --> 00:21:24.000
Did you?
00:21:24.160 --> 00:21:25.519
I don't I don't know.
00:21:25.680 --> 00:21:28.160
But I that used to be part of my practice.
00:21:28.319 --> 00:21:31.680
And it wasn't just you need to show up on time and you need to do this.
00:21:31.839 --> 00:21:34.079
It a lot of it was about me.
00:21:34.240 --> 00:21:35.359
Here's how I flow.
00:21:35.519 --> 00:21:38.559
If you're five minutes late for a meeting, I'm fine with that.
00:21:38.720 --> 00:21:40.720
Some people wouldn't be, that's fine with me.
00:21:40.960 --> 00:21:46.720
But if you take advantage of my goodwill, I won't say anything, but I'll be pissed.
00:21:48.559 --> 00:21:52.559
And um I it was just sort of we are human.
00:21:53.519 --> 00:21:57.759
Here's how much I know about myself, but there are some expectations.
00:21:57.920 --> 00:21:59.759
I want this done really, really well.
00:22:00.400 --> 00:22:02.799
Every time every detail needs to be right.
00:22:03.039 --> 00:22:08.960
Here are some things I want you to take risks, and it's okay if we make some mistakes.
00:22:09.279 --> 00:22:15.599
But I haven't been in a relationship uh of expectation sharing in a long time.
00:22:16.319 --> 00:22:20.559
Oh so it was really interesting to me.
00:22:21.039 --> 00:22:24.559
I so I started leading this team of 10.
00:22:24.640 --> 00:22:27.279
It's the biggest team I've led for the longest time.
00:22:27.599 --> 00:22:31.759
Um in 2018 and stopped in 2025.
00:22:32.000 --> 00:22:35.200
So so saw them through pandemic, essentially, is the point.
00:22:35.759 --> 00:22:42.400
And what was really interesting to me was how relatively easy the pivot was, and it was a student conduct team, right?
00:22:42.559 --> 00:22:48.000
Not running events to go to pandemic where we were a hundred percent virtual for a year and a half.
00:22:48.240 --> 00:22:51.359
We weren't allowed to set foot on campus, largely.
00:22:51.599 --> 00:22:59.680
And then when we came back, and my team came back hybrid, then suddenly they really wanted detailed expectations.
00:22:59.839 --> 00:23:01.359
I had never had three pages.
00:23:01.440 --> 00:23:06.240
I was like, I think I had like five bullet points per relationship.
00:23:06.480 --> 00:23:11.519
And it was things like take care of your health first, because if you're not doing that, you're not taking care of anyone else.
00:23:11.599 --> 00:23:15.759
It's things like be honest, including about your mistakes, things like that, right?
00:23:16.000 --> 00:23:20.319
And my team suddenly was like, are we allowed to take a break during the day?
00:23:20.720 --> 00:23:23.920
And I was like, Yeah, and they're like, what if we're 10 minutes late?
00:23:24.079 --> 00:23:26.319
And I was like, it was so shocking to me.
00:23:26.400 --> 00:23:41.920
And I suddenly realized that everyone had, or not everyone, because implied rules are a problem, but a lot of people thought they had an understanding about the implied rules of the workplace in the before times during pandemic, all remote time.
00:23:42.079 --> 00:23:48.079
We were all sort of making it up, and what we knew is we were just trying to keep it through the day.
00:23:48.640 --> 00:23:52.880
And then in the post-pandemic time, no one knew what the rules were.
00:23:53.119 --> 00:24:09.200
And I do think that is a challenge for leadership and supervisors to say, to your point, Kurt, like here's how to be a good employee in this space, and here's the college, there needs to be some accountability for that.
00:24:09.519 --> 00:24:13.519
But the accountability just cannot be attendance taking.
00:24:13.759 --> 00:24:18.960
It just cannot be did you get through 10 worksheets or only eight worksheets?
00:24:19.599 --> 00:24:23.920
Because that's not the kind of thinking that we're asking.
00:24:24.160 --> 00:24:30.000
I don't think faculty and I don't think student affairs professionals we want doing that kind of thinking for the most part.
00:24:30.240 --> 00:24:31.119
We all have to do something.
00:24:31.519 --> 00:24:50.000
But but yeah, I mean, I think we don't know what the rules are anymore, and people are I think there are people, again, the worksheet people who really want to create a workspace where they are in control and they know what everyone's doing, or at least they want the credible illusion of that.
00:24:51.200 --> 00:24:54.000
You're making my blood pressure go up right now.
00:24:54.400 --> 00:24:55.039
You're right.
00:24:55.200 --> 00:24:56.480
You are so right.
00:24:57.200 --> 00:25:03.680
But you remember 15 years ago, I I had a job teaching first-year seminars at a university.
00:25:03.920 --> 00:25:04.559
Great job.
00:25:04.720 --> 00:25:06.480
Oh, I've had such wonderful jobs.
00:25:07.039 --> 00:25:15.839
Um, and I had this video from like 60 Minutes or one of those types of shows about Zappo shoes uh environment.
00:25:16.000 --> 00:25:19.680
And they were talking about the generational work differences.
00:25:19.920 --> 00:25:29.119
And at Zappos, they showed video, there were birthday parties all the time, and they had like the office conga line going around.
00:25:29.279 --> 00:25:34.480
And all those of us of a certain age were at first like, oh my God, what a nightmare.
00:25:34.720 --> 00:25:48.960
But there's so much research about play and creativity, and you know, Google Campus had a you could go to the couch room and take a nap, or go to the gym, or go out and rollerblade on campus.
00:25:49.200 --> 00:25:56.240
And now those places are doing the stranglehold of bringing everybody back, like, no, you gotta be at your desk.
00:25:56.400 --> 00:25:58.799
What you're calling attendance taking.
00:25:59.039 --> 00:26:00.559
It's sort of sickening.
00:26:00.799 --> 00:26:13.599
Well, and I'm I'm really worried, especially as we're finding out that more and more people I don't even know what neurodiverse means anymore because I'm not sure there is any such thing as neurotypical.
00:26:14.079 --> 00:26:34.640
But I think about friends and family members who I know can contribute amazing things to the world of work, but they need some quiet time or they need a certain kind of lighting, or they have to be able to manage the smells around them, and how many people we're going to cut out because we can't think creatively.
00:26:34.880 --> 00:26:41.680
And I very much get people saying, well, they can just apply for uh for a disability accommodation.
00:26:42.160 --> 00:26:44.960
But A, that's not as easy as we think it is.
00:26:45.279 --> 00:26:53.920
B, we're discovering lots of adults right now that didn't even know they had a disability that could or would benefit from accommodation.
00:26:54.079 --> 00:26:58.400
And C, I don't know why we again, I don't even know what neurotypical means.
00:26:58.559 --> 00:26:59.920
I'm not sure it means anything.
00:27:00.079 --> 00:27:07.839
So I don't know why we would cut it off if people can demonstrate the benefit if we give them the chance to do it.
00:27:08.079 --> 00:27:23.759
Well, I think of the equity issue for like international students, like students who might present as if they're they're presenting some neurointeresting stuff, but they're not coming from environments uh by and large where they've been diagnosed.
00:27:23.920 --> 00:27:25.759
It's just they're just different.
00:27:26.000 --> 00:27:36.000
And even I don't know if this is along that same line, but my last office was in a big, you know, the old main hall, the big tower on campus.
00:27:36.240 --> 00:27:41.279
And my last year, they started locking it up for not great reasons.
00:27:41.440 --> 00:27:50.640
So you had to like knock on the door and be let in and then sit in the principal's office waiting for Dean Shaw to come out.
00:27:50.799 --> 00:27:54.880
And like just the constant shame of every step of that.
00:27:55.119 --> 00:28:00.640
Where now when I meet with a student, I am in that Zoom, I make sure I get there before the student.
00:28:00.799 --> 00:28:04.400
So if they are scared, I am just nice.
00:28:04.880 --> 00:28:16.240
And to spare them that, and if there's neurodiversity on top of that, I think it it also lets them be in their own comfortable place and have routine around them.
00:28:16.799 --> 00:28:18.480
There's so many advantages.
00:28:18.640 --> 00:28:22.480
But if I wasn't doing my job, I should be held accountable for that.
00:28:22.720 --> 00:28:29.839
So I feel like you all should have had someone else on because I I'm almost like, oh, are we in our own thought bubbles about that?
00:28:30.000 --> 00:28:50.799
I mean, so I'm trying to think of like what are the legit reasons to say, I don't know if I can come up with a legit reason to say we need everyone back 37.5 hours a week, but I can come up with reasons why we do, especially if you're a brick and mortar campus where at least a large percentage of students attend brick and mortar classes.
00:28:51.200 --> 00:28:53.119
I can come up with reasons why we want that.
00:28:53.200 --> 00:28:55.599
Like I'm thinking about prospective student days, right?
00:28:55.680 --> 00:28:58.559
We don't want prospective students to come onto a campus.
00:28:58.720 --> 00:29:11.440
I I think of a campus I toured as a prospective student in the summer, and oh, that was so unfair to that campus because I walked around and I was saying to my parents, this is very boring, and I will not do it here.
00:29:11.680 --> 00:29:11.839
Right?
00:29:12.000 --> 00:29:13.759
I wanted to see the light of the campus.
00:29:13.920 --> 00:29:19.359
So even things as little as that, I think are meaningful, and and I think that's a justifiable reason.
00:29:19.680 --> 00:29:26.799
But I do think what we're saying is there's not a justifiable reason for 37.5 hours.
00:29:27.039 --> 00:29:30.160
I'm gonna obsess on that for everyone.
00:29:30.559 --> 00:29:45.279
And that does really mean doing the hard work of nuance and saying the hard things to people of I get that so-and-so only works on campus three days a week and you have to be here five days a week, but that's the job.
00:29:45.519 --> 00:29:51.680
And if you don't want that part of the job, it's okay, we understand, but then you have to go do something different.
00:29:51.920 --> 00:29:56.960
And and I do get that that is upsetting to people and makes people feel less worthwhile.
00:29:57.200 --> 00:30:01.119
And I do get the generational work ethic difference, I think.
00:30:01.200 --> 00:30:07.759
About like my mom has two sisters who are like 10 and 13 years younger than her.
00:30:07.839 --> 00:30:12.480
And when I quit my job without my parents never quit a job their whole life, not either one of them.
00:30:12.880 --> 00:30:15.680
They both essentially have the same employer their whole lives.
00:30:15.839 --> 00:30:18.799
They would be horrified by my career trajectory.
00:30:19.200 --> 00:30:23.119
And my aunts who are 10 and 13 years younger, are like, oh, that's great.
00:30:23.279 --> 00:30:24.960
Fantastic good for you.
00:30:25.359 --> 00:30:29.119
And I do think it is a generational issue.
00:30:29.440 --> 00:30:35.359
And we need to own that, but admit that none of us are totally right or totally wrong.
00:30:35.680 --> 00:30:40.640
Yeah, I think about, you know, I supervise frontline a frontline worker position.
00:30:40.880 --> 00:30:48.880
And in past, not the current person that's in that position, but I had somebody working in there that wanted to do a couple days a week from home.
00:30:49.039 --> 00:30:51.200
You're the frontline person for office.
00:30:51.359 --> 00:30:52.319
That can't work.
00:30:52.720 --> 00:31:00.559
If this doesn't work for you, like if you need to be remote, there are other positions where that might be allowable, but this isn't one.
00:31:00.720 --> 00:31:02.880
I'm okay having that conversation.
00:31:03.119 --> 00:31:10.400
And when I have supervised people in the past who requested remote time, I think I'm very much of the trust but verify.
00:31:10.559 --> 00:31:14.720
So if you want to work from home, I am gonna ask, what are you working on while you're home?
00:31:14.880 --> 00:31:17.279
And if I email you at 11 a.m.
00:31:17.359 --> 00:31:23.440
and I don't hear back from you all day, I am gonna ask, hey, you don't seem to have been available yesterday.
00:31:23.599 --> 00:31:25.200
What were you doing?
00:31:25.680 --> 00:31:38.559
Um because I do think, you know, for every 10 people that are doing what they say they're gonna do from a work from home perspective, there are people that that may be taking advantage of it that could potentially ruin it for everybody else.
00:31:38.720 --> 00:31:44.559
And I I hate to be that uh suspicious person, but there is a lot of work to get done on a college campus.
00:31:44.720 --> 00:31:50.160
And if everybody is working from home and not really doing anything, that's how you end up with bad policies.
00:31:50.319 --> 00:31:52.640
But again, in my mind, those are one-off things.
00:31:52.720 --> 00:31:57.519
Like you address the you address the poor work ethic, you address the thing that went wrong.
00:31:57.599 --> 00:32:08.400
You don't implement a policy that says, well, now everybody has to come back to work and work full-time on campus because a supervisor couldn't have a discussion with somebody who took advantage of the situation.
00:32:08.720 --> 00:32:15.680
What if we rewrote the job description instead of saying you have to be in your seat 37.5 hours?
00:32:15.920 --> 00:32:20.960
But said we need active student engagement for X amount of time.
00:32:21.119 --> 00:32:29.680
Like if you're having office hours and not a single student is showing up, let's sit down together and figure out how to attract students.
00:32:29.920 --> 00:32:32.160
Because we know office hours are good.
00:32:32.480 --> 00:32:46.559
Or um I I think there is value in people popping into each other's offices and just shooting the shit and finding out who they are as humans because the water cooler stuff.
00:32:46.799 --> 00:32:55.039
Yeah, and the day that Kurt gets the flu, I might be more willing to like I'll I I'll take that meeting for you.
00:32:55.119 --> 00:32:56.720
Don't worry, you should go home.
00:32:56.960 --> 00:33:17.039
And when people aren't building those relationships, or I've even seen like secret keeping about like, oh, did you hear like Kurt's husband has cancer, or but nobody feels like they can share, like, I'm going through something hard right now, because it would because we have to be professional.
00:33:17.279 --> 00:33:22.799
Well, professional is doing things that produce community, produce good work.
00:33:23.359 --> 00:33:27.440
I'm less likely to slack if I care about my co-worker.
00:33:27.680 --> 00:33:28.880
I do think that's the question, right?
00:33:29.200 --> 00:33:34.160
Like, what is it that we actually want and how do we measure that?
00:33:34.559 --> 00:33:40.240
Education's not always great at figuring out how to measure what we want, right?
00:33:40.400 --> 00:33:43.039
Like witness standardized tests.
00:33:43.279 --> 00:33:57.440
So if what we want is a vibrant engagement between faculty, staff, and students, tell us how you're doing that and tell us how much you're doing that, and tell us with how many different students you're doing that.
00:33:57.680 --> 00:34:00.960
That's a really powerful and effective metric.
00:34:01.119 --> 00:34:03.039
And not all of that has to happen in person.
00:34:03.279 --> 00:34:15.920
And there has to be trust building because I also know, oh golly, I could name for you colleagues if I said, like, I want to see that you've got, you know, 10% of your students are showing up for office hours.
00:34:16.000 --> 00:34:18.000
That would be a good goal to set.
00:34:18.239 --> 00:34:19.599
Well, am I gonna get fired?
00:34:19.679 --> 00:34:23.199
Like, I did everything I could, and only 9% came.
00:34:23.440 --> 00:34:27.440
Like, this isn't like fireable, not firable.
00:34:27.519 --> 00:34:29.199
It's about aspirational.
00:34:29.679 --> 00:34:31.760
And what is the goal here?
00:34:32.079 --> 00:34:36.719
So I think we have to be better at learning how to have those conversations.
00:34:36.880 --> 00:34:38.719
Like nobody's getting fired around here.
00:34:38.880 --> 00:34:48.800
If you are truly you're you're working hard, we're trying new things, and some things work and some things fail that will teach us lessons, which is the nature of education.
00:34:48.960 --> 00:34:49.199
Yeah.
00:34:49.440 --> 00:34:51.920
Have we beaten this one to death?
00:34:52.559 --> 00:34:54.400
I think this is a great topic.
00:34:54.559 --> 00:34:54.960
It is.
00:34:55.199 --> 00:34:55.360
Yeah.
00:34:55.519 --> 00:35:04.159
Here, here's my plea for someone was just on a group I man the other day asking for research topics they're going back to to finish their dissertation.
00:35:04.400 --> 00:35:06.559
Um, but here's my plea.
00:35:06.719 --> 00:35:08.400
I want someone to do research on this.
00:35:08.559 --> 00:35:15.039
I want someone to do research on do online interactions truly diminish the student experience or do they change it?
00:35:15.280 --> 00:35:23.039
In what ways do current students expect and hope that their interactions will be online versus in person?
00:35:23.360 --> 00:35:25.599
How do we get more information on that?
00:35:25.760 --> 00:35:31.519
Because I actually think all of us, including me, are just guessing based on our anecdotal experience.
00:35:32.000 --> 00:35:33.039
And that's not good enough.
00:35:33.360 --> 00:35:39.199
I go back to this is my word of the day nuanced because I do think I work at a community college.
00:35:39.360 --> 00:35:46.159
So we serve learners who are more traditional age, but we also have a growing number of duly enrolled students.
00:35:46.239 --> 00:35:50.239
So now we have students as young as 16 years old on our campus.
00:35:50.400 --> 00:35:57.280
And we also have a second career and returning adult students who are 50 to 75 years old.
00:35:57.440 --> 00:36:01.360
What they may expect out of an experience is not going to be universal.
00:36:01.519 --> 00:36:10.960
And I don't think having one specific way of providing a service makes sense in 2026, nor will it make sense in 2036.
00:36:11.119 --> 00:36:18.079
We've got to figure out how to meet as many students as we can where they are, or we will fail as a sector.
00:36:19.039 --> 00:36:19.599
In my opinion.
00:36:19.840 --> 00:36:23.360
That's hard, especially as we look at shrinking demography, right?
00:36:23.599 --> 00:36:35.519
Like we can't we can't afford to leave anyone behind philosophically, but we also literally can't afford to have people choosing to step out who would like to step in to our communities.
00:36:35.760 --> 00:36:35.920
Yeah.
00:36:36.159 --> 00:36:42.880
I wonder if we could Google um so the the school we're talking about that they were looking at is Texas AM, I believe.
00:36:43.199 --> 00:36:44.480
It's one of the branches.
00:36:44.719 --> 00:36:50.320
So I wonder as a system, uh, what their tenure policies are.
00:36:50.559 --> 00:36:54.079
Like what do faculty get service points for?
00:36:54.320 --> 00:36:57.519
What is incentivized and what isn't?
00:36:57.920 --> 00:37:05.679
Because there are places that will say, like, you need to be here, but you only get tenure points for publishing.
00:37:05.920 --> 00:37:06.079
Right.
00:37:06.320 --> 00:37:09.360
Uh and so there's a hypocrisy.
00:37:09.519 --> 00:37:10.400
So I don't know.
00:37:10.480 --> 00:37:16.719
I'd like to see for them what are the spoken and the unspoken values of faculty.
00:37:16.960 --> 00:37:19.679
I mean, they are a research institution.
00:37:19.840 --> 00:37:22.880
And so what I what's the expectation of relationship?
00:37:23.199 --> 00:37:24.400
It made me wonder.
00:37:24.559 --> 00:37:33.519
I'd love to talk to somebody in their human resources department just to try to figure out what led to this imperative and what's the aftermath of it.
00:37:33.599 --> 00:37:34.960
You know, now you have people quitting.
00:37:35.119 --> 00:37:44.000
If your intent was to make sure that there were people on campus to meet with students, now uh you don't even have anybody teaching the classes.
00:37:44.159 --> 00:37:45.039
You've lost talent.
00:37:45.280 --> 00:37:45.920
Doesn't make sense.
00:37:46.159 --> 00:37:47.280
I bet we could guess.
00:37:47.440 --> 00:37:52.239
I bet we could come up with some theories about why, because it feels arbitrary, doesn't it?
00:37:52.559 --> 00:38:00.960
Well, and they said there was like a Texas state law, but several people seem to point out, but not everyone is interpreting that law the same way.
00:38:01.199 --> 00:38:05.679
So that doesn't seem entirely accurate either.
00:38:06.000 --> 00:38:13.760
Uh sometimes new leadership will come in, like I'm gonna set the standard, and first thing is everyone's back to work.
00:38:14.079 --> 00:38:17.280
So I don't know, that that's one theory.
00:38:17.519 --> 00:38:22.559
Somebody called and complained, and so now suddenly there's an overreaction.
00:38:22.800 --> 00:38:23.920
That's a theory.
00:38:24.079 --> 00:38:26.559
None of them are super healthy theories.
00:38:26.800 --> 00:38:30.719
So uh Jada Walton is the director of human resources.
00:38:30.800 --> 00:38:34.239
She was named the university's 2025 employee of the year.
00:38:34.400 --> 00:38:38.400
So maybe we could uh ask Jada to come on and and talk to us about this.
00:38:38.480 --> 00:38:40.639
I'd love to hear an insider's perspective.
00:38:40.800 --> 00:38:41.679
Jada, are you there?
00:38:41.920 --> 00:38:43.599
Jada, like what is your plan?
00:38:43.679 --> 00:38:51.199
You know, whether this was your idea or someone else's idea, other schools are dealing with these kinds of pressures in different ways, right?
00:38:51.280 --> 00:39:00.960
In DC, the federal government allegedly requiring everyone back to work has meant that universities and other workplaces feel more empowered to demand that.
00:39:01.119 --> 00:39:05.039
And so what's your plan when you do have all these people quitting?
00:39:05.280 --> 00:39:09.119
Because to Kurt's point, that's not meeting your goals either.
00:39:09.280 --> 00:39:12.239
And now you've high had to hire just who's available.
00:39:12.400 --> 00:39:12.559
Yeah.
00:39:12.719 --> 00:39:14.480
How are you measuring success?
00:39:14.800 --> 00:39:24.480
Well, there's also, I'm looking when I Googled, there's a news article, new AM director, new AM Victoria HR director focused on rebuilding culture.
00:39:24.639 --> 00:39:27.119
June 24, 2026 news article.
00:39:27.360 --> 00:39:31.679
So it seems like this might be tied to building culture.
00:39:31.840 --> 00:39:38.239
However, culture only existing when forcing people to come back to campus seems incongruent.
00:39:38.559 --> 00:39:39.599
Well, they have a culture.
00:39:39.760 --> 00:39:43.119
Every place has a culture just by existing.
00:39:43.519 --> 00:39:47.119
Sounds like the culture seems to be parochial in nature.
00:39:47.440 --> 00:39:52.800
But again, I have colleagues that are like, I can't get my people to answer the phone.
00:39:53.039 --> 00:39:54.159
And that's a problem.
00:39:54.320 --> 00:39:54.559
Yeah.
00:39:54.800 --> 00:39:56.639
But then you have to address that.
00:39:56.960 --> 00:40:01.199
And that could happen if to your point, if they're in their office, right?
00:40:01.360 --> 00:40:06.800
We see that with people who listen, we saw that 30 years ago when people were on campus.
00:40:06.880 --> 00:40:11.440
There were people who were available and present, and there were people who weren't.
00:40:11.599 --> 00:40:14.719
We just now have more ways to avoid it or fulfill it.
00:40:14.960 --> 00:40:18.000
Also, uh, I gotta keep myself honest.
00:40:18.159 --> 00:40:20.880
I'm not uh in love with Clifton strengths.
00:40:21.039 --> 00:40:24.320
I think that it's interesting, it's a great conversation to have.
00:40:24.480 --> 00:40:26.639
It helps you learn some things about yourself.
00:40:26.800 --> 00:40:36.000
But I do believe in the the concept of it that, you know, you might have a woo in your department that you want there 40 hours.
00:40:36.159 --> 00:40:41.280
You want them there 60 hours if you could, because they are relationship builders.
00:40:41.519 --> 00:40:49.280
And maybe you've got somebody that they're just better at the doing the housing numbers and running the assessment data.
00:40:49.440 --> 00:40:51.760
And they could do that from home.
00:40:52.000 --> 00:41:00.079
And if you have people doing what they like and they're good at, everybody's happier and you you're more successful.
00:41:00.320 --> 00:41:05.119
I don't love the models of like, nope, everyone has to do the exact same thing.
00:41:05.280 --> 00:41:14.719
I remember with RA's Kurt telling, like, if you want to trade your bulletin boards for a couple of duty nights because you hate bulletin boards, do it.
00:41:14.800 --> 00:41:15.760
Yeah, I don't care.
00:41:16.000 --> 00:41:18.159
I don't need to see your suck-ass bulletin board.
00:41:18.400 --> 00:41:24.480
Like Yeah, my expectation is that there are bulletin boards and that duty is covered.
00:41:24.639 --> 00:41:30.239
Yeah, but it you're adults, but it it feels like we've gotten into this math games.
00:41:30.480 --> 00:41:36.880
Christy, my friend, we never even got to the articles we were uh originally in talking to talking about.
00:41:37.360 --> 00:41:38.639
We had lots to say.
00:41:38.880 --> 00:41:40.559
There's some juicy stuff in there.
00:41:40.960 --> 00:41:44.719
I think that just means Christy has to come back and she has to bring cookies next time.
00:41:44.960 --> 00:41:50.480
I I could like overnight you all some cookies, or we could just have cookies in my backyard sometime.
00:41:51.039 --> 00:41:53.039
We don't live that far apart.
00:41:53.280 --> 00:41:54.719
No, we really don't.
00:41:55.599 --> 00:41:57.760
And yeah, I was fascinated by this article.
00:41:58.159 --> 00:42:05.039
I am seeing a lot of schools getting rid of panels and not just for academic integrity and not just because they're overwhelmed.
00:42:05.199 --> 00:42:09.599
It's been interesting and sort of sad to watch for me.
00:42:09.760 --> 00:42:16.639
I can't pretend that I don't think there are good reasons for some of that, but I I think you lose something really intangible.
00:42:16.800 --> 00:42:20.480
So we should, I would love to talk about that more because it's sitting with me.
00:42:20.719 --> 00:42:21.840
Yeah, I've got feelings.
00:42:22.079 --> 00:42:23.519
Okay, we'll make this happen.
00:42:23.760 --> 00:42:24.079
All right.
00:42:24.239 --> 00:42:24.639
All right.
00:42:24.960 --> 00:42:25.679
Thank you all.
00:42:25.840 --> 00:42:27.840
I appreciate the conversation.
00:42:28.239 --> 00:42:31.840
Sign up for the traitors where you get a whole bunch more of us.
00:42:32.079 --> 00:42:32.800
Am I in it?
00:42:32.960 --> 00:42:33.920
I think I signed up.
00:42:34.159 --> 00:42:35.440
You're one of our celebrity.
00:42:35.840 --> 00:42:36.079
Yeah.
00:42:36.239 --> 00:42:36.639
Yeah.
00:42:37.119 --> 00:42:37.440
All right.
00:42:37.599 --> 00:42:42.320
Kurt, lovely to meet you in a little box on the screen, maybe in person sometime soon.
00:42:42.719 --> 00:42:43.360
Definitely in person.
00:42:43.760 --> 00:42:47.599
You'll have to come to campus for that and be in person, and we'll take attendance.
00:42:47.760 --> 00:42:48.239
I love it.
00:42:48.400 --> 00:42:49.039
I love it.
00:42:50.239 --> 00:42:50.480
All right.
00:42:50.880 --> 00:42:52.719
No, we've got a date in February.
00:42:52.800 --> 00:42:56.880
We will see you at the conference and hopefully we'll see you again on here.
00:42:57.199 --> 00:42:59.199
Thanks everybody and tune in again for Ms.
00:42:59.360 --> 00:42:59.920
Behavior.
00:43:00.079 --> 00:43:00.960
Bye-bye.
00:43:05.440 --> 00:43:05.599
Ms.
00:43:05.840 --> 00:43:09.920
Behavior is written and produced by Colette Shaw and Kurt Doan.
00:43:10.079 --> 00:43:16.079
Theme music was written and performed by Kevin McLeod from Incompatech.com.
00:43:16.320 --> 00:43:17.440
You can contact Ms.
00:43:17.679 --> 00:43:18.719
Behavior at Ms.
00:43:18.880 --> 00:43:21.519
BehaviorCollege at gmail.com.
00:43:21.679 --> 00:43:25.760
That's msbehaviorcollege at gmail.com.
00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:01.199
I assume you all edit.
00:00:01.280 --> 00:00:03.839
Wait, I should have said that before you started, but great.
00:00:13.759 --> 00:00:15.279
Hello and welcome to Ms.
00:00:15.439 --> 00:00:19.359
Behavior, the podcast for college student conduct professionals.
00:00:19.519 --> 00:00:20.800
My name is Colette.
00:00:21.120 --> 00:00:22.160
And I'm Kurt.
00:00:22.559 --> 00:00:26.399
And we have another host today that is joining us.
00:00:26.719 --> 00:00:27.039
Dr.
00:00:27.120 --> 00:00:31.839
Anthony, why don't you tell us who you are and how have you infiltrated our ranks?
00:00:32.399 --> 00:00:33.039
Hi, y'all.
00:00:33.200 --> 00:00:34.799
My name is Christy Anthony.
00:00:34.880 --> 00:00:36.640
I use she, her pronouns.
00:00:36.880 --> 00:00:39.359
And preferred formality is first name.
00:00:39.520 --> 00:00:40.479
So Christy.
00:00:40.719 --> 00:00:49.280
Um and Colette and I started talking last year, I think after the conference, Colette, but I honestly can't quite.
00:00:49.600 --> 00:00:56.399
Oh, we got connected because John Lowry did a case study that we both sat in and had lots of thoughts on.
00:00:56.560 --> 00:00:58.079
And you kindly reached out to me.
00:00:58.159 --> 00:01:05.439
And we just sort of continued the conversation and found that we have a number of like different career bits in common.
00:01:05.680 --> 00:01:06.159
Yeah.
00:01:06.400 --> 00:01:07.040
That was fun.
00:01:07.120 --> 00:01:12.799
Yeah, we were guest judges in a case study competition for grad students.
00:01:13.680 --> 00:01:17.599
And I I had feelings about it.
00:01:17.680 --> 00:01:24.400
And I just I'd always seen Christy your posts on conduct community threads.
00:01:25.120 --> 00:01:25.359
Yes.
00:01:25.599 --> 00:01:33.040
I think I told you, like, I always want to weigh in, but if you've gotten there first, you usually have already said what I was going to say.
00:01:34.000 --> 00:01:40.000
I'll appreciate all the seconding because sometimes I'm like, am I out here solo on this thought?
00:01:40.159 --> 00:01:40.959
I don't know.
00:01:41.280 --> 00:01:48.319
Yeah, I just needed to like another soul to tell me if I was am I missing something big?
00:01:48.560 --> 00:01:56.879
But also, like you are one of our celebrities in our upcoming Halloween program, the Ms.
00:01:57.040 --> 00:01:59.760
Betraiters Halloween event.
00:02:00.239 --> 00:02:03.599
And we're coming in costume if we want, right?
00:02:03.840 --> 00:02:04.239
Oh, yes.
00:02:04.480 --> 00:02:07.840
I am encouraged, highly encouraged.
00:02:07.920 --> 00:02:17.439
Uh, for those of you who have not heard yet, uh, we are developing an online Zoom-based version of the Traitors.
00:02:17.520 --> 00:02:21.919
Uh, you don't have to have watched The Traders ever, but it certainly could help.
00:02:22.159 --> 00:02:31.680
And uh, we're doing this in October, which is, as we've discussed previously, kind of a crazy time of year in the higher education student conduct world.
00:02:31.840 --> 00:02:39.599
Uh, so just offering an online social outlet for people who might want a little bit of levity during uh a crazy time.
00:02:39.840 --> 00:02:45.280
And uh, I've seen Collette's outfit, uh, her Claudia Winkleman outfit.
00:02:45.439 --> 00:02:47.039
It is Primo.
00:02:48.960 --> 00:02:50.639
Claudia Winkleman.
00:02:50.800 --> 00:02:52.319
Should I know the reference?
00:02:52.800 --> 00:02:56.000
She is the host of the UK version.
00:02:56.240 --> 00:02:59.199
Um, she's the Alan Cumming of the UK version.
00:02:59.360 --> 00:03:00.800
She is phenomenal.
00:03:01.120 --> 00:03:08.240
She has a very distinctive physical look with her makeup and hair and bangs.
00:03:08.560 --> 00:03:09.840
And um fashion.
00:03:10.080 --> 00:03:12.080
My sweater has arrived.
00:03:12.400 --> 00:03:13.039
Oh, nice.
00:03:13.199 --> 00:03:27.919
And Kurt, I didn't tell you to my very first uh boss in student affairs, the woman that hired me to be an orientation director, my sophomore year of college, was in town and she wanted to go tour the Hershey factory.
00:03:28.159 --> 00:03:28.719
Yeah.
00:03:28.960 --> 00:03:34.080
And what a good time of year to go to Hershey, is right before Halloween.
00:03:34.560 --> 00:03:39.520
So we went and we did the make your own um chocolate bar experience.
00:03:40.639 --> 00:03:49.360
And I have a misbehavior chocolate bar that we could give away as a prize to the winners.
00:03:49.680 --> 00:03:50.159
That's amazing.
00:03:50.479 --> 00:03:53.439
Or faithful, whoever wins.
00:03:54.479 --> 00:03:58.479
Right now, though, everyone that has signed up wants to be a competitor.
00:03:58.560 --> 00:04:19.120
So we actually, if you're listening and you're feeling nervous, we actually need some people that are just gonna join the Zoom as observers who are like bystanders, who get in the Zoom um chat and can say, like, I think Christy's lying because her eye was twitching when she talked, and I think Kurt's lying.
00:04:19.199 --> 00:04:25.839
And so we need people that can kind of be like prices right, shouting out what they're picking up on.
00:04:26.800 --> 00:04:27.839
I'm very excited.
00:04:27.920 --> 00:04:31.199
So this is uh Wednesday, October 28th at 7 p.m.
00:04:31.360 --> 00:04:34.319
It's a live event and uh free, free, free.
00:04:34.480 --> 00:04:46.079
And we are considering it professional development because it is testing your ability to sniff out credibility, ask good questions, all the good stuff.
00:04:46.399 --> 00:04:53.680
I'm hoping that somebody puts in for professional development leave for this and uh reports back.
00:04:53.839 --> 00:04:54.800
Uh yeah.
00:04:55.040 --> 00:04:55.839
We'll see what happens.
00:04:59.439 --> 00:05:02.319
Can you um prove that I was at your workshop?
00:05:02.560 --> 00:05:05.519
How many CEUs do I get for this, right?
00:05:06.160 --> 00:05:06.959
At least one.
00:05:07.040 --> 00:05:11.120
And I think we have to have a badge for it as well that you can put in on LinkedIn.
00:05:11.199 --> 00:05:12.079
So yeah.
00:05:12.480 --> 00:05:12.800
Oh.
00:05:13.839 --> 00:05:15.519
All right, that's on you, man.
00:05:16.480 --> 00:05:16.800
Okay.
00:05:17.920 --> 00:05:19.839
I think we really should.
00:05:20.879 --> 00:05:22.160
That would be amazing.
00:05:22.399 --> 00:05:22.720
Okay.
00:05:23.120 --> 00:05:28.319
Well, I've got two things that uh we've got Christy here for that we're gonna break down.
00:05:28.480 --> 00:05:32.480
And one is the concept of the gig job.
00:05:32.800 --> 00:05:33.279
Yeah.
00:05:33.519 --> 00:05:38.240
So I believe Christy, you and I are both in in gig work right now, correct?
00:05:38.399 --> 00:05:38.800
Yeah.
00:05:39.120 --> 00:05:46.800
So I've done it on and off since this came to me accidentally, truly, in 2013.
00:05:47.439 --> 00:05:50.079
I was in a job I loved.
00:05:50.639 --> 00:06:01.199
Um, and I decided to do a crazy thing and quit that job without another job to do semester at C, which was amazing.
00:06:01.920 --> 00:06:13.040
And someone reached out to me, Colleen Ryan, and said, Hey, some folks at Curry are due to go on family leave right after you get back.
00:06:13.279 --> 00:06:16.079
So how about you cover for them for a semester?
00:06:16.319 --> 00:06:17.920
And I said, I don't know.
00:06:18.000 --> 00:06:20.000
That sounds weird.
00:06:20.480 --> 00:06:22.160
How would that work exactly?
00:06:22.399 --> 00:06:29.519
And Rachel King, who was one of the two people who was going on leave, reached out to me and said, You you really can do this, it will be great.
00:06:29.680 --> 00:06:30.879
And I loved it.
00:06:31.040 --> 00:06:41.920
So I filled in for those two folks at Curry, and then I filled in for folks at Absen, and I just sort of kept doing that for a little bit.
00:06:42.480 --> 00:06:53.839
And then I had to take leave from work entirely to deal with some family stuff with my parents and having a new baby, um, and all those like things.
00:06:54.560 --> 00:07:00.399
And then someone came to me and said, Well, how about if you work part-time for us instead of full-time?
00:07:00.560 --> 00:07:05.120
And again, I was sort of thinking, is that how this works?
00:07:05.360 --> 00:07:06.399
Can we do this?
00:07:06.720 --> 00:07:11.120
But it was great, it was a perfect fit for my life at that time.
00:07:11.360 --> 00:07:21.680
I actually never would have left that job, but got the opportunity to move back home to the DC area and worked remotely, and that was in 2017 and 18.
00:07:21.839 --> 00:07:35.360
I worked remotely part-time for an academic year and then started leading a team and really took that as an opportunity to build that, just as people had done for me.
00:07:35.519 --> 00:07:56.639
So when I had folks who were going on family leave or taking a semester and needed to work part-time so they could do a graduate assistantship or you know, whatever it was, I found I could hire really great, overqualified people who, like me, had just been in a stage of life where full-time permanent work wasn't a great fit.
00:07:56.879 --> 00:08:09.040
And that got our team some fresh blood, some external critique that wasn't part of the intended package, but was a great side benefit and really just broadened everyone's network.
00:08:09.279 --> 00:08:15.839
I'm no longer working on a campus doing independent consulting, and some of that has been gig work.
00:08:16.079 --> 00:08:32.000
Less of that than I thought it might be a tend to do more like investigations or project work, but even so, it's some of the same idea of like, hey, can you just come in and do a smaller work commitment to the university or to the college or to the nonprofit?
00:08:32.320 --> 00:08:35.519
And we will benefit from that, and hopefully you will too.
00:08:35.679 --> 00:08:45.679
So it has become something I just think, gosh, especially as we're all seeing these budget crunches between federal research dollars and loss of international students.
00:08:45.840 --> 00:08:56.320
I was able to do it in a way that was budget neutral when I was leading a team, but I think I I think that it just could be a huge budgetary option for places to consider.
00:08:56.480 --> 00:09:00.799
But but it's interesting to think how many people, just like me, sort of have.
00:09:00.960 --> 00:09:03.519
I mean, I think I had a failure of imagination, right?
00:09:03.600 --> 00:09:06.159
Like I I couldn't picture it, I didn't know it.
00:09:06.240 --> 00:09:09.360
And so I was hesitant to do it when it first fell into my lap.
00:09:09.600 --> 00:09:10.240
I agree.
00:09:10.480 --> 00:09:12.559
I I thought I was retiring.
00:09:12.720 --> 00:09:12.960
Yeah.
00:09:13.120 --> 00:09:13.840
And I've heard that.
00:09:14.080 --> 00:09:19.279
I was open, like if some if the universe brought me something that was like really interesting, great.
00:09:19.440 --> 00:09:24.080
And a friend was like, Oh, you could work part-time, you can work on Zoom.
00:09:24.399 --> 00:09:31.679
And I told a friend, I'm like, Yeah, I'll only do it if I don't have to move, and I'll only do it part-time.
00:09:32.000 --> 00:09:37.279
And the very next day, somebody reached out to her, like, do you know anybody that would do student conduct?
00:09:37.440 --> 00:09:43.279
And I also only wanted to do conduct, I didn't want to do all the other the bit team, all that other stuff.
00:09:43.600 --> 00:09:47.679
I am happier than I ever remember.
00:09:48.320 --> 00:09:58.000
And like you did um, you did an online webinar earlier this year about just let's get creative, folks, about different work environments.
00:09:58.159 --> 00:10:08.080
So there's this, there's the us, like, hey, we're doing it, we're doing creative stuff, and it works for the school, it works for us, works for the students.
00:10:08.320 --> 00:10:13.840
And I want to talk about they uh like I think there are a lot of advantages for students for us being online.
00:10:14.559 --> 00:10:19.279
But then I have friends too that are being told you better get back to work.
00:10:19.600 --> 00:10:24.639
And I I sent you all, I don't know if you saw the article this week.
00:10:24.720 --> 00:10:29.519
It's called the FaceTime Ultimatum, and it was mainly about faculty.
00:10:29.679 --> 00:10:40.879
This was from it was from the Chronicle, talking about faculty members who were told you have to be back five days a week, 40 hours.
00:10:41.200 --> 00:10:49.120
And um, some of them were adjuncts that were commuting into hours one way to be on campus.
00:10:49.279 --> 00:10:50.799
And so they're just quitting.
00:10:50.879 --> 00:11:04.720
They like the gig work, and it works for them as adjuncts because a lot of times they're trying to cobble together multiple jobs into one amount of money that can pay the rent, pay the grocery bill.
00:11:04.879 --> 00:11:09.279
So I feel like there's this tug of war right now in our industry.
00:11:09.440 --> 00:11:16.399
So if you had, I don't know, if you had to make a plug in favor of getting more creative.
00:11:17.279 --> 00:11:21.759
Or well, first, I don't want to exclude Kurt, do you have thoughts on this?
00:11:21.919 --> 00:11:24.399
Because you're in a unique vantage point.
00:11:24.799 --> 00:11:37.840
It's complicated because I know that you know, at our school we have this whole rule about uh remote work in contiguous states, and there are policy-related issues at play at all times.
00:11:38.000 --> 00:11:45.679
But I think for me, if the work can be done remotely, you know, there are accountabilities built in, then why not let it?
00:11:45.840 --> 00:11:57.840
I I think the I only skimmed part of that article, but the weird part for me was that it applied even to professors that were working fully, like they were teaching entirely online.
00:11:58.639 --> 00:12:02.720
So the logic is just not there uh for me.
00:12:03.039 --> 00:12:15.440
There were so many moments in that Kurt, I completely agree, where it's like no one has thought very critically or in a nuanced way or in a complex way about this, right?
00:12:15.679 --> 00:12:21.759
I fully understand the benefits for some people of being in person.
00:12:22.240 --> 00:12:31.440
And so I think if you're teaching students who are on campus or who come to campus, having some in-person presence is really, really important.
00:12:31.840 --> 00:12:48.879
And also there are plenty of students who never come to campus or who rarely come to campus or who live on campus, but for one reason or another, going to an in-person office hour is significantly harder than going to a remote one.
00:12:48.960 --> 00:12:50.480
So Callett, I think you're right.
00:12:51.200 --> 00:12:55.759
There are real benefits to students for being able to access us remotely.
00:12:55.919 --> 00:13:04.480
I think of a so this was again when I was working remotely in 2017-2018, before anyone thought this was normal.
00:13:04.639 --> 00:13:14.320
I was working for a university in Massachusetts and I was living in Virginia, and I was doing an interview with a complainant in a sexual misconduct case.
00:13:14.559 --> 00:13:18.639
And I was asking the student to tell me sequence of events, right?
00:13:18.720 --> 00:13:26.000
It was an investigative interview, and they said, I I forget what they said, but they were describing what happened in the room.
00:13:26.240 --> 00:13:32.080
And I asked a clarifying question, and they they were in the room where it had happened, in their residence hall room.
00:13:32.159 --> 00:13:34.320
And they said, Do you just want me to show you?
00:13:34.480 --> 00:13:45.200
And they sort of stepped aside and could take me around the room without me ever having to enter the space inappropriately or in a way that didn't feel comfortable to either of us, and they could access me.
00:13:45.360 --> 00:13:54.720
I think about students who want to have their parents observe or join as a support person, but their parents live four states away.
00:13:54.879 --> 00:14:01.360
I guess I could do all that from my office on campus, but then you're narrowing the scope of who you can hire.
00:14:01.440 --> 00:14:13.919
I I think the one moment when I was like, oh, this really showed the defeat of logic and just like trying to get to a place that people could tolerate was that they didn't have to be on campus 40 hours a week, call it.
00:14:14.080 --> 00:14:18.080
They had to be on campus 37.5 hours a week.
00:14:18.240 --> 00:14:24.639
And it reminded me of my sister's condo association has a speed limit of 7.5 miles an hour.
00:14:26.080 --> 00:14:28.399
I said at one point, it's like, what is sound?
00:14:28.480 --> 00:14:31.679
That doesn't even show up on anyone's speedometer.
00:14:31.759 --> 00:14:32.080
What do you?
00:14:32.320 --> 00:14:36.159
And she was like, Some people wanted five, and some people wanted 10.
00:14:36.320 --> 00:14:38.559
So we all agreed on 7.5.
00:14:38.720 --> 00:14:39.679
And I was like, of course.
00:14:39.840 --> 00:14:40.159
Yeah.
00:14:40.480 --> 00:14:54.879
For me, the article, the thing I remember was the professor that was saying, All right, I come in, I do my office hour, I sit in an empty hallway, no one comes to my office hour, and then I go home.
00:14:55.120 --> 00:14:58.159
And I don't know how this is helpful.
00:14:58.399 --> 00:15:00.480
The argument can't end there.
00:15:01.200 --> 00:15:04.960
Because maybe their campus does need people to be on campus.
00:15:05.039 --> 00:15:12.720
And you sitting in your office is not there's more to the job than waiting for students to come to you.
00:15:13.519 --> 00:15:15.679
And could we be more creative?
00:15:16.159 --> 00:15:20.879
Yeah, it's just a very dualistic approach to employment, I think.
00:15:20.960 --> 00:15:23.759
I guess is the best phrase I can come up with.
00:15:23.919 --> 00:15:25.200
I need caffeine, I think.
00:15:25.360 --> 00:15:35.360
Um I it's an unnuanced approach, also, because to just broadly say we need everybody back on campus, it doesn't make sense for every role.
00:15:35.519 --> 00:15:39.039
Certainly if you work in maintenance facilities.
00:15:39.200 --> 00:15:40.480
There's not a remote option.
00:15:40.559 --> 00:15:45.679
And I think everybody understands that not all jobs are going to have a remote option.
00:15:45.840 --> 00:15:47.279
I also live in a rural area.
00:15:47.440 --> 00:15:57.840
I think it's very myopic to think that you're going to find somebody who wants to, you're going to find the best candidate for a certain kind of job who wants to live in your rural community.
00:15:58.000 --> 00:15:59.120
It's not for everybody.
00:15:59.200 --> 00:16:04.320
So, you know, we look at the difficulty of hiring data scientists or a data analyst position.
00:16:04.559 --> 00:16:13.440
You can do that job fully remote and find amazing people, or you can say, we are only going to hire somebody locally and you're going to get what you get at that point.
00:16:14.240 --> 00:16:26.559
Yeah, I mean, the argument I heard when I was a team leader advocating for my team to get an increase in remote time was, well, not everyone can do that.
00:16:26.720 --> 00:16:29.039
And I said, absolutely, I get that.
00:16:29.200 --> 00:16:36.240
But here's the data, and I had, you know, track my team's workload and how many students wanted to meet remotely anyway.
00:16:36.559 --> 00:16:47.360
And to your point about rural areas, in urban areas, there's very few student affairs professionals who can afford to live close to their urban university if they're not getting an on-campus apartment.
00:16:47.679 --> 00:16:49.120
So that became an issue.
00:16:49.360 --> 00:16:50.879
And and my response is, I get it.
00:16:51.039 --> 00:16:52.480
I get this isn't for everyone.
00:16:52.639 --> 00:16:57.279
And I don't think, and never advocated for my team to be a hundred percent remote.
00:16:57.440 --> 00:17:03.039
And I said, the folks who want remote work more are welcome to come work on my team if there's an opening.
00:17:03.200 --> 00:17:04.799
Like we'd be happy for that.
00:17:04.960 --> 00:17:14.240
But if they love residence life or late night programming or events management, yeah, that that comes with an in-person thing.
00:17:14.319 --> 00:17:16.079
And there's pros and cons to every job.
00:17:16.240 --> 00:17:25.599
So I I do always get baffled when it's like, well, we have to give everyone the same components because we don't do that no matter what.
00:17:26.160 --> 00:17:35.519
What's what's gonna be better for the campus, better for the student, not doing this weird calculus of who's working how many hours in person?
00:17:35.759 --> 00:17:48.319
Yeah, collect- I like your idea though, of like, if if we're going to have people be on campus more, maybe not a hundred hundred percent of the time, but more, do we wanna be more specific and aspirational about what they're doing with that time?
00:17:48.480 --> 00:18:03.359
So faculty, instead of sitting in your office waiting for students to come to you, are we giving you some funds to host a lunch drop-in session in the cafeteria and talk to students and be more visible?
00:18:03.599 --> 00:18:07.039
And does that better meet the needs of the community?
00:18:07.200 --> 00:18:11.440
I've I've known faculty who would have loved that and faculty who would have shied away from it.
00:18:11.519 --> 00:18:17.440
But it sounds like this university was already seeing faculty shy away from even office hours.
00:18:17.599 --> 00:18:18.319
So yeah.
00:18:18.880 --> 00:18:30.480
Been in two different uh community of practice that so these are with the our national governing group for conduct folks and ASCA um have kind of subcommittees.
00:18:30.559 --> 00:18:38.000
And I've been in two recently where supervisors were complaining about the work ethic of staffs.
00:18:38.240 --> 00:18:50.480
So I think there's also a dirty little secret that maybe people are saying that it's an equity issue, and really it's a supervisory issue that, well, so-and-so is not getting their work done.
00:18:50.640 --> 00:18:53.519
So they they need to be here so we can watch them.
00:18:53.759 --> 00:18:58.480
And I think that is a different problem that this this is not a solution.
00:18:58.720 --> 00:19:02.799
I mean, it reminded me very much of teachers I have worked with.
00:19:02.880 --> 00:19:04.240
So I used to teach high school.
00:19:04.400 --> 00:19:17.759
So teachers I've worked with, teachers I've had, teachers I've seen my kiddo had, who felt like a good learning environment was where all the students were sitting quietly at their desks getting as many worksheets done as possible.
00:19:17.920 --> 00:19:20.079
And that was the ideal learning environment.
00:19:20.400 --> 00:19:33.839
I think a little bit of little bit of chaos and disorder and energy is better than knowing exactly what everyone is doing and that everyone is following the plan at every step, right?
00:19:34.079 --> 00:19:38.960
So when my team was remote, we had this very robust chat.
00:19:39.200 --> 00:19:42.319
Did it always stay perfectly on topic?
00:19:42.559 --> 00:19:43.519
No, for sure.
00:19:43.599 --> 00:19:47.119
There were moments of like, oh my God, just had the best takeout lunch today.
00:19:47.200 --> 00:19:48.799
Here's the new place I recommend.
00:19:48.960 --> 00:19:52.160
But it was creative and energizing.
00:19:52.319 --> 00:20:00.240
I think allowing for more of that creativity and more different ways to access the workspace creates the learning environment we want.
00:20:00.400 --> 00:20:07.519
I certainly hope for staff and faculty, but I suspect also for students because they're influenced by how we experience the environment.
00:20:07.759 --> 00:20:14.960
Well, if they walk in our office and they see we're laughing, and that's their first thing, like that that sets a tone.
00:20:15.279 --> 00:20:18.880
You know, I think there's this growing imperative around culture.
00:20:19.119 --> 00:20:24.400
What does culture look like on your campus and developing a culture that attracts and retains people?
00:20:24.559 --> 00:20:32.480
I don't think you ever get a truly dynamic workplace culture by applying a broad brush to every situation.
00:20:32.640 --> 00:20:46.400
It requires nuance, it requires creativity, it requires that you understand all of the different roles on your campus and acknowledge that there may be different types of rules and work environments that work best for this.
00:20:46.640 --> 00:20:51.039
You're not going to get that if you just say everybody has to do everything the exact same way.
00:20:51.200 --> 00:20:53.519
That's not how workplace culture works.
00:20:53.680 --> 00:20:55.440
It's not how higher education works.
00:20:55.680 --> 00:20:57.599
But I think that's much harder work, right?
00:20:57.759 --> 00:20:58.720
That is.
00:20:59.200 --> 00:21:04.400
Much more attention, much more modification, much more adaptivity.
00:21:04.640 --> 00:21:13.039
And let's be honest, higher education institutions, by and large, are not well known for their quick and nimble changes of direction.
00:21:13.200 --> 00:21:14.400
That's not our strength.
00:21:14.720 --> 00:21:21.680
When you worked for me, Kurt, did I sit you down and do my like three pages of expectations?
00:21:22.160 --> 00:21:23.359
I don't remember.
00:21:23.519 --> 00:21:24.000
Did you?
00:21:24.160 --> 00:21:25.519
I don't I don't know.
00:21:25.680 --> 00:21:28.160
But I that used to be part of my practice.
00:21:28.319 --> 00:21:31.680
And it wasn't just you need to show up on time and you need to do this.
00:21:31.839 --> 00:21:34.079
It a lot of it was about me.
00:21:34.240 --> 00:21:35.359
Here's how I flow.
00:21:35.519 --> 00:21:38.559
If you're five minutes late for a meeting, I'm fine with that.
00:21:38.720 --> 00:21:40.720
Some people wouldn't be, that's fine with me.
00:21:40.960 --> 00:21:46.720
But if you take advantage of my goodwill, I won't say anything, but I'll be pissed.
00:21:48.559 --> 00:21:52.559
And um I it was just sort of we are human.
00:21:53.519 --> 00:21:57.759
Here's how much I know about myself, but there are some expectations.
00:21:57.920 --> 00:21:59.759
I want this done really, really well.
00:22:00.400 --> 00:22:02.799
Every time every detail needs to be right.
00:22:03.039 --> 00:22:08.960
Here are some things I want you to take risks, and it's okay if we make some mistakes.
00:22:09.279 --> 00:22:15.599
But I haven't been in a relationship uh of expectation sharing in a long time.
00:22:16.319 --> 00:22:20.559
Oh so it was really interesting to me.
00:22:21.039 --> 00:22:24.559
I so I started leading this team of 10.
00:22:24.640 --> 00:22:27.279
It's the biggest team I've led for the longest time.
00:22:27.599 --> 00:22:31.759
Um in 2018 and stopped in 2025.
00:22:32.000 --> 00:22:35.200
So so saw them through pandemic, essentially, is the point.
00:22:35.759 --> 00:22:42.400
And what was really interesting to me was how relatively easy the pivot was, and it was a student conduct team, right?
00:22:42.559 --> 00:22:48.000
Not running events to go to pandemic where we were a hundred percent virtual for a year and a half.
00:22:48.240 --> 00:22:51.359
We weren't allowed to set foot on campus, largely.
00:22:51.599 --> 00:22:59.680
And then when we came back, and my team came back hybrid, then suddenly they really wanted detailed expectations.
00:22:59.839 --> 00:23:01.359
I had never had three pages.
00:23:01.440 --> 00:23:06.240
I was like, I think I had like five bullet points per relationship.
00:23:06.480 --> 00:23:11.519
And it was things like take care of your health first, because if you're not doing that, you're not taking care of anyone else.
00:23:11.599 --> 00:23:15.759
It's things like be honest, including about your mistakes, things like that, right?
00:23:16.000 --> 00:23:20.319
And my team suddenly was like, are we allowed to take a break during the day?
00:23:20.720 --> 00:23:23.920
And I was like, Yeah, and they're like, what if we're 10 minutes late?
00:23:24.079 --> 00:23:26.319
And I was like, it was so shocking to me.
00:23:26.400 --> 00:23:41.920
And I suddenly realized that everyone had, or not everyone, because implied rules are a problem, but a lot of people thought they had an understanding about the implied rules of the workplace in the before times during pandemic, all remote time.
00:23:42.079 --> 00:23:48.079
We were all sort of making it up, and what we knew is we were just trying to keep it through the day.
00:23:48.640 --> 00:23:52.880
And then in the post-pandemic time, no one knew what the rules were.
00:23:53.119 --> 00:24:09.200
And I do think that is a challenge for leadership and supervisors to say, to your point, Kurt, like here's how to be a good employee in this space, and here's the college, there needs to be some accountability for that.
00:24:09.519 --> 00:24:13.519
But the accountability just cannot be attendance taking.
00:24:13.759 --> 00:24:18.960
It just cannot be did you get through 10 worksheets or only eight worksheets?
00:24:19.599 --> 00:24:23.920
Because that's not the kind of thinking that we're asking.
00:24:24.160 --> 00:24:30.000
I don't think faculty and I don't think student affairs professionals we want doing that kind of thinking for the most part.
00:24:30.240 --> 00:24:31.119
We all have to do something.
00:24:31.519 --> 00:24:50.000
But but yeah, I mean, I think we don't know what the rules are anymore, and people are I think there are people, again, the worksheet people who really want to create a workspace where they are in control and they know what everyone's doing, or at least they want the credible illusion of that.
00:24:51.200 --> 00:24:54.000
You're making my blood pressure go up right now.
00:24:54.400 --> 00:24:55.039
You're right.
00:24:55.200 --> 00:24:56.480
You are so right.
00:24:57.200 --> 00:25:03.680
But you remember 15 years ago, I I had a job teaching first-year seminars at a university.
00:25:03.920 --> 00:25:04.559
Great job.
00:25:04.720 --> 00:25:06.480
Oh, I've had such wonderful jobs.
00:25:07.039 --> 00:25:15.839
Um, and I had this video from like 60 Minutes or one of those types of shows about Zappo shoes uh environment.
00:25:16.000 --> 00:25:19.680
And they were talking about the generational work differences.
00:25:19.920 --> 00:25:29.119
And at Zappos, they showed video, there were birthday parties all the time, and they had like the office conga line going around.
00:25:29.279 --> 00:25:34.480
And all those of us of a certain age were at first like, oh my God, what a nightmare.
00:25:34.720 --> 00:25:48.960
But there's so much research about play and creativity, and you know, Google Campus had a you could go to the couch room and take a nap, or go to the gym, or go out and rollerblade on campus.
00:25:49.200 --> 00:25:56.240
And now those places are doing the stranglehold of bringing everybody back, like, no, you gotta be at your desk.
00:25:56.400 --> 00:25:58.799
What you're calling attendance taking.
00:25:59.039 --> 00:26:00.559
It's sort of sickening.
00:26:00.799 --> 00:26:13.599
Well, and I'm I'm really worried, especially as we're finding out that more and more people I don't even know what neurodiverse means anymore because I'm not sure there is any such thing as neurotypical.
00:26:14.079 --> 00:26:34.640
But I think about friends and family members who I know can contribute amazing things to the world of work, but they need some quiet time or they need a certain kind of lighting, or they have to be able to manage the smells around them, and how many people we're going to cut out because we can't think creatively.
00:26:34.880 --> 00:26:41.680
And I very much get people saying, well, they can just apply for uh for a disability accommodation.
00:26:42.160 --> 00:26:44.960
But A, that's not as easy as we think it is.
00:26:45.279 --> 00:26:53.920
B, we're discovering lots of adults right now that didn't even know they had a disability that could or would benefit from accommodation.
00:26:54.079 --> 00:26:58.400
And C, I don't know why we again, I don't even know what neurotypical means.
00:26:58.559 --> 00:26:59.920
I'm not sure it means anything.
00:27:00.079 --> 00:27:07.839
So I don't know why we would cut it off if people can demonstrate the benefit if we give them the chance to do it.
00:27:08.079 --> 00:27:23.759
Well, I think of the equity issue for like international students, like students who might present as if they're they're presenting some neurointeresting stuff, but they're not coming from environments uh by and large where they've been diagnosed.
00:27:23.920 --> 00:27:25.759
It's just they're just different.
00:27:26.000 --> 00:27:36.000
And even I don't know if this is along that same line, but my last office was in a big, you know, the old main hall, the big tower on campus.
00:27:36.240 --> 00:27:41.279
And my last year, they started locking it up for not great reasons.
00:27:41.440 --> 00:27:50.640
So you had to like knock on the door and be let in and then sit in the principal's office waiting for Dean Shaw to come out.
00:27:50.799 --> 00:27:54.880
And like just the constant shame of every step of that.
00:27:55.119 --> 00:28:00.640
Where now when I meet with a student, I am in that Zoom, I make sure I get there before the student.
00:28:00.799 --> 00:28:04.400
So if they are scared, I am just nice.
00:28:04.880 --> 00:28:16.240
And to spare them that, and if there's neurodiversity on top of that, I think it it also lets them be in their own comfortable place and have routine around them.
00:28:16.799 --> 00:28:18.480
There's so many advantages.
00:28:18.640 --> 00:28:22.480
But if I wasn't doing my job, I should be held accountable for that.
00:28:22.720 --> 00:28:29.839
So I feel like you all should have had someone else on because I I'm almost like, oh, are we in our own thought bubbles about that?
00:28:30.000 --> 00:28:50.799
I mean, so I'm trying to think of like what are the legit reasons to say, I don't know if I can come up with a legit reason to say we need everyone back 37.5 hours a week, but I can come up with reasons why we do, especially if you're a brick and mortar campus where at least a large percentage of students attend brick and mortar classes.
00:28:51.200 --> 00:28:53.119
I can come up with reasons why we want that.
00:28:53.200 --> 00:28:55.599
Like I'm thinking about prospective student days, right?
00:28:55.680 --> 00:28:58.559
We don't want prospective students to come onto a campus.
00:28:58.720 --> 00:29:11.440
I I think of a campus I toured as a prospective student in the summer, and oh, that was so unfair to that campus because I walked around and I was saying to my parents, this is very boring, and I will not do it here.
00:29:11.680 --> 00:29:11.839
Right?
00:29:12.000 --> 00:29:13.759
I wanted to see the light of the campus.
00:29:13.920 --> 00:29:19.359
So even things as little as that, I think are meaningful, and and I think that's a justifiable reason.
00:29:19.680 --> 00:29:26.799
But I do think what we're saying is there's not a justifiable reason for 37.5 hours.
00:29:27.039 --> 00:29:30.160
I'm gonna obsess on that for everyone.
00:29:30.559 --> 00:29:45.279
And that does really mean doing the hard work of nuance and saying the hard things to people of I get that so-and-so only works on campus three days a week and you have to be here five days a week, but that's the job.
00:29:45.519 --> 00:29:51.680
And if you don't want that part of the job, it's okay, we understand, but then you have to go do something different.
00:29:51.920 --> 00:29:56.960
And and I do get that that is upsetting to people and makes people feel less worthwhile.
00:29:57.200 --> 00:30:01.119
And I do get the generational work ethic difference, I think.
00:30:01.200 --> 00:30:07.759
About like my mom has two sisters who are like 10 and 13 years younger than her.
00:30:07.839 --> 00:30:12.480
And when I quit my job without my parents never quit a job their whole life, not either one of them.
00:30:12.880 --> 00:30:15.680
They both essentially have the same employer their whole lives.
00:30:15.839 --> 00:30:18.799
They would be horrified by my career trajectory.
00:30:19.200 --> 00:30:23.119
And my aunts who are 10 and 13 years younger, are like, oh, that's great.
00:30:23.279 --> 00:30:24.960
Fantastic good for you.
00:30:25.359 --> 00:30:29.119
And I do think it is a generational issue.
00:30:29.440 --> 00:30:35.359
And we need to own that, but admit that none of us are totally right or totally wrong.
00:30:35.680 --> 00:30:40.640
Yeah, I think about, you know, I supervise frontline a frontline worker position.
00:30:40.880 --> 00:30:48.880
And in past, not the current person that's in that position, but I had somebody working in there that wanted to do a couple days a week from home.
00:30:49.039 --> 00:30:51.200
You're the frontline person for office.
00:30:51.359 --> 00:30:52.319
That can't work.
00:30:52.720 --> 00:31:00.559
If this doesn't work for you, like if you need to be remote, there are other positions where that might be allowable, but this isn't one.
00:31:00.720 --> 00:31:02.880
I'm okay having that conversation.
00:31:03.119 --> 00:31:10.400
And when I have supervised people in the past who requested remote time, I think I'm very much of the trust but verify.
00:31:10.559 --> 00:31:14.720
So if you want to work from home, I am gonna ask, what are you working on while you're home?
00:31:14.880 --> 00:31:17.279
And if I email you at 11 a.m.
00:31:17.359 --> 00:31:23.440
and I don't hear back from you all day, I am gonna ask, hey, you don't seem to have been available yesterday.
00:31:23.599 --> 00:31:25.200
What were you doing?
00:31:25.680 --> 00:31:38.559
Um because I do think, you know, for every 10 people that are doing what they say they're gonna do from a work from home perspective, there are people that that may be taking advantage of it that could potentially ruin it for everybody else.
00:31:38.720 --> 00:31:44.559
And I I hate to be that uh suspicious person, but there is a lot of work to get done on a college campus.
00:31:44.720 --> 00:31:50.160
And if everybody is working from home and not really doing anything, that's how you end up with bad policies.
00:31:50.319 --> 00:31:52.640
But again, in my mind, those are one-off things.
00:31:52.720 --> 00:31:57.519
Like you address the you address the poor work ethic, you address the thing that went wrong.
00:31:57.599 --> 00:32:08.400
You don't implement a policy that says, well, now everybody has to come back to work and work full-time on campus because a supervisor couldn't have a discussion with somebody who took advantage of the situation.
00:32:08.720 --> 00:32:15.680
What if we rewrote the job description instead of saying you have to be in your seat 37.5 hours?
00:32:15.920 --> 00:32:20.960
But said we need active student engagement for X amount of time.
00:32:21.119 --> 00:32:29.680
Like if you're having office hours and not a single student is showing up, let's sit down together and figure out how to attract students.
00:32:29.920 --> 00:32:32.160
Because we know office hours are good.
00:32:32.480 --> 00:32:46.559
Or um I I think there is value in people popping into each other's offices and just shooting the shit and finding out who they are as humans because the water cooler stuff.
00:32:46.799 --> 00:32:55.039
Yeah, and the day that Kurt gets the flu, I might be more willing to like I'll I I'll take that meeting for you.
00:32:55.119 --> 00:32:56.720
Don't worry, you should go home.
00:32:56.960 --> 00:33:17.039
And when people aren't building those relationships, or I've even seen like secret keeping about like, oh, did you hear like Kurt's husband has cancer, or but nobody feels like they can share, like, I'm going through something hard right now, because it would because we have to be professional.
00:33:17.279 --> 00:33:22.799
Well, professional is doing things that produce community, produce good work.
00:33:23.359 --> 00:33:27.440
I'm less likely to slack if I care about my co-worker.
00:33:27.680 --> 00:33:28.880
I do think that's the question, right?
00:33:29.200 --> 00:33:34.160
Like, what is it that we actually want and how do we measure that?
00:33:34.559 --> 00:33:40.240
Education's not always great at figuring out how to measure what we want, right?
00:33:40.400 --> 00:33:43.039
Like witness standardized tests.
00:33:43.279 --> 00:33:57.440
So if what we want is a vibrant engagement between faculty, staff, and students, tell us how you're doing that and tell us how much you're doing that, and tell us with how many different students you're doing that.
00:33:57.680 --> 00:34:00.960
That's a really powerful and effective metric.
00:34:01.119 --> 00:34:03.039
And not all of that has to happen in person.
00:34:03.279 --> 00:34:15.920
And there has to be trust building because I also know, oh golly, I could name for you colleagues if I said, like, I want to see that you've got, you know, 10% of your students are showing up for office hours.
00:34:16.000 --> 00:34:18.000
That would be a good goal to set.
00:34:18.239 --> 00:34:19.599
Well, am I gonna get fired?
00:34:19.679 --> 00:34:23.199
Like, I did everything I could, and only 9% came.
00:34:23.440 --> 00:34:27.440
Like, this isn't like fireable, not firable.
00:34:27.519 --> 00:34:29.199
It's about aspirational.
00:34:29.679 --> 00:34:31.760
And what is the goal here?
00:34:32.079 --> 00:34:36.719
So I think we have to be better at learning how to have those conversations.
00:34:36.880 --> 00:34:38.719
Like nobody's getting fired around here.
00:34:38.880 --> 00:34:48.800
If you are truly you're you're working hard, we're trying new things, and some things work and some things fail that will teach us lessons, which is the nature of education.
00:34:48.960 --> 00:34:49.199
Yeah.
00:34:49.440 --> 00:34:51.920
Have we beaten this one to death?
00:34:52.559 --> 00:34:54.400
I think this is a great topic.
00:34:54.559 --> 00:34:54.960
It is.
00:34:55.199 --> 00:34:55.360
Yeah.
00:34:55.519 --> 00:35:04.159
Here, here's my plea for someone was just on a group I man the other day asking for research topics they're going back to to finish their dissertation.
00:35:04.400 --> 00:35:06.559
Um, but here's my plea.
00:35:06.719 --> 00:35:08.400
I want someone to do research on this.
00:35:08.559 --> 00:35:15.039
I want someone to do research on do online interactions truly diminish the student experience or do they change it?
00:35:15.280 --> 00:35:23.039
In what ways do current students expect and hope that their interactions will be online versus in person?
00:35:23.360 --> 00:35:25.599
How do we get more information on that?
00:35:25.760 --> 00:35:31.519
Because I actually think all of us, including me, are just guessing based on our anecdotal experience.
00:35:32.000 --> 00:35:33.039
And that's not good enough.
00:35:33.360 --> 00:35:39.199
I go back to this is my word of the day nuanced because I do think I work at a community college.
00:35:39.360 --> 00:35:46.159
So we serve learners who are more traditional age, but we also have a growing number of duly enrolled students.
00:35:46.239 --> 00:35:50.239
So now we have students as young as 16 years old on our campus.
00:35:50.400 --> 00:35:57.280
And we also have a second career and returning adult students who are 50 to 75 years old.
00:35:57.440 --> 00:36:01.360
What they may expect out of an experience is not going to be universal.
00:36:01.519 --> 00:36:10.960
And I don't think having one specific way of providing a service makes sense in 2026, nor will it make sense in 2036.
00:36:11.119 --> 00:36:18.079
We've got to figure out how to meet as many students as we can where they are, or we will fail as a sector.
00:36:19.039 --> 00:36:19.599
In my opinion.
00:36:19.840 --> 00:36:23.360
That's hard, especially as we look at shrinking demography, right?
00:36:23.599 --> 00:36:35.519
Like we can't we can't afford to leave anyone behind philosophically, but we also literally can't afford to have people choosing to step out who would like to step in to our communities.
00:36:35.760 --> 00:36:35.920
Yeah.
00:36:36.159 --> 00:36:42.880
I wonder if we could Google um so the the school we're talking about that they were looking at is Texas AM, I believe.
00:36:43.199 --> 00:36:44.480
It's one of the branches.
00:36:44.719 --> 00:36:50.320
So I wonder as a system, uh, what their tenure policies are.
00:36:50.559 --> 00:36:54.079
Like what do faculty get service points for?
00:36:54.320 --> 00:36:57.519
What is incentivized and what isn't?
00:36:57.920 --> 00:37:05.679
Because there are places that will say, like, you need to be here, but you only get tenure points for publishing.
00:37:05.920 --> 00:37:06.079
Right.
00:37:06.320 --> 00:37:09.360
Uh and so there's a hypocrisy.
00:37:09.519 --> 00:37:10.400
So I don't know.
00:37:10.480 --> 00:37:16.719
I'd like to see for them what are the spoken and the unspoken values of faculty.
00:37:16.960 --> 00:37:19.679
I mean, they are a research institution.
00:37:19.840 --> 00:37:22.880
And so what I what's the expectation of relationship?
00:37:23.199 --> 00:37:24.400
It made me wonder.
00:37:24.559 --> 00:37:33.519
I'd love to talk to somebody in their human resources department just to try to figure out what led to this imperative and what's the aftermath of it.
00:37:33.599 --> 00:37:34.960
You know, now you have people quitting.
00:37:35.119 --> 00:37:44.000
If your intent was to make sure that there were people on campus to meet with students, now uh you don't even have anybody teaching the classes.
00:37:44.159 --> 00:37:45.039
You've lost talent.
00:37:45.280 --> 00:37:45.920
Doesn't make sense.
00:37:46.159 --> 00:37:47.280
I bet we could guess.
00:37:47.440 --> 00:37:52.239
I bet we could come up with some theories about why, because it feels arbitrary, doesn't it?
00:37:52.559 --> 00:38:00.960
Well, and they said there was like a Texas state law, but several people seem to point out, but not everyone is interpreting that law the same way.
00:38:01.199 --> 00:38:05.679
So that doesn't seem entirely accurate either.
00:38:06.000 --> 00:38:13.760
Uh sometimes new leadership will come in, like I'm gonna set the standard, and first thing is everyone's back to work.
00:38:14.079 --> 00:38:17.280
So I don't know, that that's one theory.
00:38:17.519 --> 00:38:22.559
Somebody called and complained, and so now suddenly there's an overreaction.
00:38:22.800 --> 00:38:23.920
That's a theory.
00:38:24.079 --> 00:38:26.559
None of them are super healthy theories.
00:38:26.800 --> 00:38:30.719
So uh Jada Walton is the director of human resources.
00:38:30.800 --> 00:38:34.239
She was named the university's 2025 employee of the year.
00:38:34.400 --> 00:38:38.400
So maybe we could uh ask Jada to come on and and talk to us about this.
00:38:38.480 --> 00:38:40.639
I'd love to hear an insider's perspective.
00:38:40.800 --> 00:38:41.679
Jada, are you there?
00:38:41.920 --> 00:38:43.599
Jada, like what is your plan?
00:38:43.679 --> 00:38:51.199
You know, whether this was your idea or someone else's idea, other schools are dealing with these kinds of pressures in different ways, right?
00:38:51.280 --> 00:39:00.960
In DC, the federal government allegedly requiring everyone back to work has meant that universities and other workplaces feel more empowered to demand that.
00:39:01.119 --> 00:39:05.039
And so what's your plan when you do have all these people quitting?
00:39:05.280 --> 00:39:09.119
Because to Kurt's point, that's not meeting your goals either.
00:39:09.280 --> 00:39:12.239
And now you've high had to hire just who's available.
00:39:12.400 --> 00:39:12.559
Yeah.
00:39:12.719 --> 00:39:14.480
How are you measuring success?
00:39:14.800 --> 00:39:24.480
Well, there's also, I'm looking when I Googled, there's a news article, new AM director, new AM Victoria HR director focused on rebuilding culture.
00:39:24.639 --> 00:39:27.119
June 24, 2026 news article.
00:39:27.360 --> 00:39:31.679
So it seems like this might be tied to building culture.
00:39:31.840 --> 00:39:38.239
However, culture only existing when forcing people to come back to campus seems incongruent.
00:39:38.559 --> 00:39:39.599
Well, they have a culture.
00:39:39.760 --> 00:39:43.119
Every place has a culture just by existing.
00:39:43.519 --> 00:39:47.119
Sounds like the culture seems to be parochial in nature.
00:39:47.440 --> 00:39:52.800
But again, I have colleagues that are like, I can't get my people to answer the phone.
00:39:53.039 --> 00:39:54.159
And that's a problem.
00:39:54.320 --> 00:39:54.559
Yeah.
00:39:54.800 --> 00:39:56.639
But then you have to address that.
00:39:56.960 --> 00:40:01.199
And that could happen if to your point, if they're in their office, right?
00:40:01.360 --> 00:40:06.800
We see that with people who listen, we saw that 30 years ago when people were on campus.
00:40:06.880 --> 00:40:11.440
There were people who were available and present, and there were people who weren't.
00:40:11.599 --> 00:40:14.719
We just now have more ways to avoid it or fulfill it.
00:40:14.960 --> 00:40:18.000
Also, uh, I gotta keep myself honest.
00:40:18.159 --> 00:40:20.880
I'm not uh in love with Clifton strengths.
00:40:21.039 --> 00:40:24.320
I think that it's interesting, it's a great conversation to have.
00:40:24.480 --> 00:40:26.639
It helps you learn some things about yourself.
00:40:26.800 --> 00:40:36.000
But I do believe in the the concept of it that, you know, you might have a woo in your department that you want there 40 hours.
00:40:36.159 --> 00:40:41.280
You want them there 60 hours if you could, because they are relationship builders.
00:40:41.519 --> 00:40:49.280
And maybe you've got somebody that they're just better at the doing the housing numbers and running the assessment data.
00:40:49.440 --> 00:40:51.760
And they could do that from home.
00:40:52.000 --> 00:41:00.079
And if you have people doing what they like and they're good at, everybody's happier and you you're more successful.
00:41:00.320 --> 00:41:05.119
I don't love the models of like, nope, everyone has to do the exact same thing.
00:41:05.280 --> 00:41:14.719
I remember with RA's Kurt telling, like, if you want to trade your bulletin boards for a couple of duty nights because you hate bulletin boards, do it.
00:41:14.800 --> 00:41:15.760
Yeah, I don't care.
00:41:16.000 --> 00:41:18.159
I don't need to see your suck-ass bulletin board.
00:41:18.400 --> 00:41:24.480
Like Yeah, my expectation is that there are bulletin boards and that duty is covered.
00:41:24.639 --> 00:41:30.239
Yeah, but it you're adults, but it it feels like we've gotten into this math games.
00:41:30.480 --> 00:41:36.880
Christy, my friend, we never even got to the articles we were uh originally in talking to talking about.
00:41:37.360 --> 00:41:38.639
We had lots to say.
00:41:38.880 --> 00:41:40.559
There's some juicy stuff in there.
00:41:40.960 --> 00:41:44.719
I think that just means Christy has to come back and she has to bring cookies next time.
00:41:44.960 --> 00:41:50.480
I I could like overnight you all some cookies, or we could just have cookies in my backyard sometime.
00:41:51.039 --> 00:41:53.039
We don't live that far apart.
00:41:53.280 --> 00:41:54.719
No, we really don't.
00:41:55.599 --> 00:41:57.760
And yeah, I was fascinated by this article.
00:41:58.159 --> 00:42:05.039
I am seeing a lot of schools getting rid of panels and not just for academic integrity and not just because they're overwhelmed.
00:42:05.199 --> 00:42:09.599
It's been interesting and sort of sad to watch for me.
00:42:09.760 --> 00:42:16.639
I can't pretend that I don't think there are good reasons for some of that, but I I think you lose something really intangible.
00:42:16.800 --> 00:42:20.480
So we should, I would love to talk about that more because it's sitting with me.
00:42:20.719 --> 00:42:21.840
Yeah, I've got feelings.
00:42:22.079 --> 00:42:23.519
Okay, we'll make this happen.
00:42:23.760 --> 00:42:24.079
All right.
00:42:24.239 --> 00:42:24.639
All right.
00:42:24.960 --> 00:42:25.679
Thank you all.
00:42:25.840 --> 00:42:27.840
I appreciate the conversation.
00:42:28.239 --> 00:42:31.840
Sign up for the traitors where you get a whole bunch more of us.
00:42:32.079 --> 00:42:32.800
Am I in it?
00:42:32.960 --> 00:42:33.920
I think I signed up.
00:42:34.159 --> 00:42:35.440
You're one of our celebrity.
00:42:35.840 --> 00:42:36.079
Yeah.
00:42:36.239 --> 00:42:36.639
Yeah.
00:42:37.119 --> 00:42:37.440
All right.
00:42:37.599 --> 00:42:42.320
Kurt, lovely to meet you in a little box on the screen, maybe in person sometime soon.
00:42:42.719 --> 00:42:43.360
Definitely in person.
00:42:43.760 --> 00:42:47.599
You'll have to come to campus for that and be in person, and we'll take attendance.
00:42:47.760 --> 00:42:48.239
I love it.
00:42:48.400 --> 00:42:49.039
I love it.
00:42:50.239 --> 00:42:50.480
All right.
00:42:50.880 --> 00:42:52.719
No, we've got a date in February.
00:42:52.800 --> 00:42:56.880
We will see you at the conference and hopefully we'll see you again on here.
00:42:57.199 --> 00:42:59.199
Thanks everybody and tune in again for Ms.
00:42:59.360 --> 00:42:59.920
Behavior.
00:43:00.079 --> 00:43:00.960
Bye-bye.
00:43:05.440 --> 00:43:05.599
Ms.
00:43:05.840 --> 00:43:09.920
Behavior is written and produced by Colette Shaw and Kurt Doan.
00:43:10.079 --> 00:43:16.079
Theme music was written and performed by Kevin McLeod from Incompatech.com.
00:43:16.320 --> 00:43:17.440
You can contact Ms.
00:43:17.679 --> 00:43:18.719
Behavior at Ms.
00:43:18.880 --> 00:43:21.519
BehaviorCollege at gmail.com.
00:43:21.679 --> 00:43:25.760
That's msbehaviorcollege at gmail.com.
