WEBVTT
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Hello and welcome to Ms.
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Behavior, the podcast for college student conduct professionals.
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My name is Colette.
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And I'm Kurt.
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Kurt.
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We're only days away from the Ms.
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Be Traitors game.
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How excited are you?
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I'm pretty damn excited.
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I got my I looked up what kind of eyeliner Claudia Winkleman uses, and it just arrived in the mail yesterday.
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I feel like it's like industrial because it's so like just I don't know even how to explain it.
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It's so pronounced.
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I love it.
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I didn't think I would be able to get it off last night.
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Only the last thing is just my my black hair dye to go with my wig.
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And some bangs.
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Oh, I got the bangs, yep.
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I've got a wig that uh I don't I think I have too much hair to stuff it all up into the wig, so I'm gonna have to dye the parts that show.
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How are you feeling about the uh season, uh the current season of the traitors?
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I need to binge watch it.
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Oh, it's is it good?
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It is.
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You know, it's some interesting choices as far as spacing it out.
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I think they dropped two episodes right away, and then the next week they had a third one, and then there was a week off.
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Oh, what?
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Yeah, I felt like I was waiting a long time.
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Interesting, though, to watch the show and also be watching folks emerge from TikTok because they are all kind of sharing their insights about the game on TikTok while you're able to watch the show.
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And some interesting uh side chatter around just what it means to be a man and masculinity.
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There is a very feminine presenting man on the show who identifies as heterosexual and cisgender, and people are challenging him on that, and his spouse as well, basically saying, Oh, your husband's gay.
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And she's like, No, he's not.
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So it's it's just interesting.
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I feel like I've become more used to watching celebrities and getting to see kind of behind the curtain of what it what celebrities might be like in real life.
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So it's an adjustment to go back to seeing just regular people, or maybe people.
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There are a couple people that are TikTok famous on this episode.
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So yeah.
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Commoners.
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Commoners.
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Commoners, we've called them.
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They're just like actors.
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They're just as complicated, you know.
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Yeah.
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I tend to save them all up because I do like to watch them three or four at a time.
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So I wanted to have a bunch in the bank, but now we're closing in on go time for our Ms.
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Be Traito rs event, and uh I need to catch up.
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It's gonna be a fun evening of community.
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It is.
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I can't wait.
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I'm very excited.
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So I got a good article for you this week that I it it raised a lot of student conduct memories for me, I guess.
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And it it's it was from the Chronicle of Higher Education called Is This How Colleges Woo Back Students?
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And I was like, hmm, what what's the take on this?
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And it was to think about recruiting older students.
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I was just thinking about like, are we you you always talk about um being at a campus that asks itself, are we student ready?
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And I am wondering, like, are we older student ready?
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Because this made a lot of interesting points that like older, there are just more of us in the older ranges as AI is pushing people out of jobs, they're gonna be a lot more career changers going back and getting new education.
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So, like, this is sort of brilliant, but are we ready?
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So I don't know if you had any time to think about this, because you work on a campus because bread and butter is is older.
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I've had about a decade and a half to think about this because this really is, it has been a part of the discussion at community colleges, at least ours, for a while.
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You know, we talk about the enrollment cliff a lot.
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And if you know that there is a declining number of traditional college-age students who are going to be coming to campus and you want to remain a viable college or university, then that means you have to start to pursue a slightly older demographic of students.
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So adult learners have been, I think, part of our equation for a while, and even more so, I think, in our current strategic plan.
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It's not just students.
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I came back from New Zealand last year, and I I don't know why I had oh, I do know why.
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I think some of their staffing models for their residences used the old like house mother, house father house parent roles.
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And I am in a lot of spaces where people are saying that their residence life folks aren't prepared for the job that it is now, or they're not willing anymore to nobody wants to do on call or to live on.
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I was like, you know who would?
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My sister.
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She and her husband have retired.
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Uh he was a longtime educator and coach.
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And I'm like, oh my God, I'd hire them in one second to live in a hall and like all you have to do is be trainable.
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I think we could think about older people in a lot of different ways.
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But as students, let's think this through.
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Yeah, I it's interesting to me.
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There is an inverse relationship between the economy and enrollment at community colleges.
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So when the economy is good, our enrollment's down, typically speaking, as a sector.
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And when the economy is not as good, you see a lot more enrollment.
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So when we had the housing crisis in the early 2000s or the late, the late aughts that produced this enrollment cliff, there was a surge in adult students coming back to community college for training opportunities, second careers.
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They lost their job and they didn't maybe like what they wanted were doing to begin with.
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So they came back and did the second act.
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But I think what I'm noticing also this time around is as we're doing searches, I am seeing a lot of people also saying, I retired from another career.
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I'm not ready to retire permanently yet.
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So I would like to come and provide my services, either part-time or full-time, to your school.
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And I don't know if that is a combination of the economy is bad.
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So people are maybe not financially ready to retire, or if it's just, I feel like I know more people that don't want to retire in the way that my parents retired, which is it's like a light switch.
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You turn it off and you stop going to your job that you've gone to for the past 40 years.
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That doesn't resonate with me.
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I feel like it probably doesn't resonate with you based on our discussions that we've had.
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Yeah.
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I I read more and more, and I have friends going back to law school, medical school in their 50s.
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Just saw somebody in their 60s get a law degree.
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And it's just like they're interested in the learning.
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And boy, it I do you remember in college occasionally, like I went to a tr pretty traditional university, but there would always be like that one 40-year-old in the class that always had their hand up, asking questions, the so-called non-traditional student, which is more and more becoming the traditional student.
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What professor wouldn't want that person in a class?
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Like they're so eager to learn.
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I I remember very distinctly as a sophomore being in finally in my psychology classes for my major, and every class there was this dude who probably like late 40s, early 50s, took up all the oxygen in the room, like hand up for everything, keeping us like minutes after the bell had rung, the proverbial bell.
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I'm like, dude, I know you don't have anything better to do, but there is a party that I gotta get to.
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And could you just have this conversation offline with the professor?
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I I feel like everybody was of the same mindset that this dude was a colossal brown noser.
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And uh, but you know, as somebody that is now that age, I think they were probably just passionate about psychology.
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And I hope they went on and had an amazing career as a psychologist or whatever, you know, whatever they were there for.
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Yeah.
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And that all that was not for naught.
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So yes.
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So I I put on my student conduct cap when I think of some of this, like who would we see then coming through our office?
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And the first group I would think of would be people accused of academic misconduct.
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That's where my head goes too.
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Accidental cheaters.
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Yeah.
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We we were joking, uh, we did that episode talking about our moms who had passed away.
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And like, what would they have done with AI if they'd had it?
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And uh I have had some of those cases because um my university, a lot of our non-traditional students are grad students.
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They're like, I didn't use AI, I used Google.
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Like, well, let's take a look at your Google.
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Uh-huh.
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This is called Gemini that's that's having the conversation with you.
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And it's drawing from it, looks like former students' old tests and exam uh exam prep guides, but those students had a lot more defensiveness than a a sort of typical undergrad would.
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And I was glad I was the one hearing the case because I was older than them, but my my two colleagues would be about 20 years younger than them.
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You know, I I go back to your original question about whether or not our colleges and universities are adult learner ready.
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And I would say that they are not.
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I I think many schools, even if they are serving an adult learner population, are still structured around a model of 8:30 a.m.
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to 4:30 p.m.
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That's when classes happen, that's when our services are provided.
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And if you happen to be one of the people that takes that block of classes between 5 and 9 p.m., you know, sorry, the cafeteria is closed, the registrar is closed, the cashier's office is closed.
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Good luck getting to the library, that might be closed too.
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So you're working with a population of people that are juggling probably a job and family, and then adding academics to the mix.
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You're pulling away, or I don't want to say denying them, but you're making it more difficult for them to access services that they might benefit from.
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I want to assume that everybody is doing the best they can, but that you're also just creating a pressure cooker of, oh my gosh, I have so much riding on this now and I need to succeed.
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Is that a recipe for academic dishonesty?
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It could be.
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I think the article you shared was largely, almost myopically, focused on competency-based education, which I think is certainly a wonderful solution.
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But also I think, you know, rethinking how we provide services on campus, how we test NSS knowledge, you know, having high stakes, you know, midterm final only for an adult learner.
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I'm not, you know, advocating to bend our curricular deliver around adults, but I think understanding that they are coming to this learning environment with a completely set, different set of expectations and needs.
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If you're not in the business of addressing those needs, then you're not an adult learner-centered campus.
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I'm trying to picture myself in my 30s.
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Well, right before we hopped on the air, I was sort of laughing about our conduct offices that say, like, well, we're educational, and yet you're meeting with somebody that's 20 years older than you.
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You know, what is that conversation?
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You know, what wisdom are you going to impart on someone who has done a lot more living of life than you have?
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And could we take ourselves a little bit off that high horse?
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But I'm even picturing a student I had last year in a cheating case.
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And she said, Colette, I did not know what the hell was going on in this class.
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It's true.
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I was not doing well in the class.
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Everything looks like, you know, I I was failing, and so I cheated to get myself out of this.
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But I didn't even like, I didn't even know where to begin.
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If like if I had been cheating, I didn't even know what the right answers would have been or how to get them.
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But if that student had been going to office hours with somebody that was quite a bit younger than them, would the younger person have been ready?
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I do know where I'm going with this.
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I I see what you're saying exactly.
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And I go a step further.
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Would they have even had office hours when it was convenient for the adult learner?
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But I going back to your question, I I have been in a situation very early in my career.
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I was 24 and I was a hall director.
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I think it was my first.
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No, it's my second job as a hall director.
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I had an RA who was, I think, 40, 45 years old.
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He was ex-military.
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I felt so insecure in that supervisory relationship because here we've got this hypermasculine, ex-military, very authoritative, authoritarian authoritative.
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Yeah, yeah.
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Yeah.
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Very authoritative guy.
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He was very kind, but I found him to be very intimidating.
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He was closer in age to my dad than he was to me.
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And here I am trying to evaluate him, give him feedback about what he's doing.
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And I felt like I felt like an imposter.
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Uh 75% of the time.
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I think there were a couple of times where he he said, I'm dealing with this situation.
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I don't know what to do.
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And I felt like the best I could do was partner with him on it.
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I'm like, here's what I'm thinking.
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But also, you're older than me.
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Yeah.
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And but more importantly, he knew the students better than I did.
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I don't know.
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I I think it's it's something to add to your your toolkit is having an experience like that, it really does kind of throw into question like what authority do you have um to lead in a situation where maybe you're not the most knowledgeable person of the room.
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And I think it's a good, it's a good life lesson.
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It's a good job lesson.
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And I think you can learn fluency in it.
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I one of my favorite people, I just found out she's not there anymore.
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But I've had to buy my own health insurance for the past two years, uh, since I'm not working on a campus.
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And the woman I went to, she looked like in her 30s, but dang, she knew her stuff.
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And I really, really respected her.
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I felt very respected by her, but also that she was the authority.
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And I think that's probably come with practice and like can we prepare our campus to have that same like every faculty member, every staff, and how many staffs are considered entry-level in student affairs?
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I do think it is conceptually something we do well in higher education, throwing people together with different perspectives and creating environments where they learn from each other.
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I think about the college that I work at.
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We serve a county that is very diverse ethnically and also, I would say, probably politically.
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And it can be the case that you grew up in a very rural part of the northern part of the county and you're going to campus for the first time with somebody who grew up in the very progressive southern part of the county, and now you're sitting next to them in a classroom.
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And our faculty are exceptionally skilled at getting folks to talk to each other and listen and engage in dialogue.
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I think it's not to me a big leap to say what could that look like for generational differences.
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Um imagine the kinds of discussions you can have in a history class with somebody who maybe saw something happen that you're reading about because they happen to be a Gen X person and not a millennial.
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But it does require, of course, intentionality around, you know, building that into your teaching lexicon.
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And I'm sure, you know, as conduct professionals, how do you have these really serious conversations with somebody who might be older than your parent or your parents' age?
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I'm just realizing now developmentally, do you remember when you first went to grad school, maybe, or maybe you took some classes in college and you came home and you started spouting the lingo of it?
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Like, well, that's a very dualistic way to work at a more multiplistic situation and uh according to blah, blah, blah.
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And really what I appreciate about a true expert is they can explain something in a really accessible way.
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So giving people that practice, like, don't use all the jargon.
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Like, how many times have I been on like a customer service call and I'll say, like, talk to me like I'm a kindergartner.
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I don't need all the jargon about whatever.
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Yeah.
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Just just help me through this, and I think that could be part of it.
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I think back to when I started work, I I think part of what appealed to me about higher education was the structure and a feeling that, especially in conduct at the time, that it was like a menu.
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I could look and say, they did this, this is what they get.
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Here are the sanctions that are appropriate for that.
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As somebody who likes structure, very appealing.
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And the older I get, the more I feel like, how wrong was that?
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Because at the end of the day, it's never the what, it's the why.
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Like, why did somebody do the thing that they did?
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What situation created an environment where somebody felt like that was the best choice to make?
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And I think I hope, my sense is that most student conduct professionals are probably better equipped to deal with diversity of all kinds when it comes to a conduct situation than I ever was 20, 30 years ago at the start of my career.
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So I have a lot of hope for this generation of higher education professionals and conduct professionals specifically.
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It could be sort of interesting to beta test things on older people who would ask why.
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Okay, I see it's on your chart that you're supposed to give me an alcohol 101 workshop.
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Well, why?
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Why is a question I would not have dealt well with early in my career, because it would have been a because this is what it says.
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I would have had no other.
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Yeah.
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I try, I try to never assign something that I couldn't with a straight face feel like I could give myself without making myself roll my eyeballs.
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If we truly believe students are adults, don't treat them like children and imagine now that your students really are adult adults.
00:20:32.640 --> 00:20:36.960
I can I swing in another direction now here?
00:20:37.200 --> 00:20:37.839
Yeah.
00:20:38.160 --> 00:20:42.000
Uh we talk about being prepared for students.
00:20:42.000 --> 00:20:56.640
Traditional age students are in the age group where mental health stuff can often start revealing itself, like psychiatric stuff, um, schizophrenia, really serious stuff.
00:20:56.640 --> 00:21:06.960
And with a traditional age student, for most of them, we are still able to pick up a phone and say, hey, family member, we're gonna need you to come get your student.
00:21:06.960 --> 00:21:21.359
When somebody's 45, and I have experienced this, and they start hearing voices in the classroom or talking to themselves out on campus, they're yours.
00:21:21.759 --> 00:21:22.240
Yeah.
00:21:22.480 --> 00:21:28.559
And are are we prepared for what a care team, what those sorts of emergencies might look like.
00:21:28.960 --> 00:21:36.640
I also think the circumstances that adult learners can come to campus with are they could be more complicated.
00:21:36.640 --> 00:21:38.640
Maybe that's not a fair assessment.
00:21:38.640 --> 00:21:41.359
Different is certainly, I think, a good word for it.
00:21:41.359 --> 00:21:44.880
But I just think about the stress and pressure.
00:21:44.880 --> 00:21:57.359
I I keep going back to thinking about like a like a single mom or somebody that is the breadwinner for their family, and they're trying to juggle all of this and what that must feel like from a stress perspective.
00:21:57.359 --> 00:22:04.079
And, you know, hoping that faculty Can pick up on that and refer when appropriate.
00:22:04.079 --> 00:22:10.160
But then also what you know what resources are available for an adult learner in those kinds of positions.
00:22:10.160 --> 00:22:23.759
I think one of the things our school does exceptionally well is trying to connect adult learners with financial resources so that, you know, you're taking that off of the plate at least and they can focus on that piece of it.
00:22:23.759 --> 00:22:47.200
But when you're sitting in class and you get a text message that your teen kid just got in a car accident or is sick and needs you, and you're having to pick up and leave and miss out on class time, there are so many, in my mind, other things that can go wrong that maybe you don't have to worry about when you are 18 years old and arriving to college for the first time.
00:22:47.519 --> 00:22:47.680
Yeah.
00:22:47.680 --> 00:22:56.720
What does an emergency contact mean for somebody that has three kids that need to be picked up at school and practice in a game?
00:22:56.720 --> 00:23:00.319
And yeah, that's a great consideration.
00:23:01.200 --> 00:23:05.599
And I think it's also just understanding why are people on your campus?
00:23:05.599 --> 00:23:07.119
Why are they in your classroom?
00:23:07.119 --> 00:23:23.920
Because, you know, as much as my mind immediately goes to adult who needs to get back into the workforce, I also know that, you know, when my grandfather was 70, he and his friend took a Spanish class because they went to Costa Rica and went fishing every year and wanted to learn how to speak the language.
00:23:23.920 --> 00:23:37.920
And I gotta tell you, I would not have wanted to been that professor because my grandfather was probably the most disruptive person that they ever encountered.
00:23:37.920 --> 00:23:46.000
Because he I guarantee you, all he wanted to know was where to go pick up loose women, where to get beer, and where the bathroom was.
00:23:46.000 --> 00:23:48.480
And that was his main goal for being in that classroom.
00:23:48.480 --> 00:23:54.400
But he he outright told me, he's like, Yeah, we go in the we sit in the back of the room and ask ridiculous questions all day.
00:23:54.400 --> 00:23:59.359
And they were all relevant, but it was like, hey, how do how do we say the motorcycle broke down?
00:23:59.359 --> 00:24:02.160
And you know, it's conversational Spanish.
00:24:02.160 --> 00:24:04.960
Most people are just there to get the basics.
00:24:04.960 --> 00:24:08.799
They had very okay, uh, we really like scallops.
00:24:08.799 --> 00:24:09.920
How do we ask?
00:24:09.920 --> 00:24:13.200
Here's a scenario.
00:24:13.200 --> 00:24:14.880
We've been pulled over by the police.
00:24:14.880 --> 00:24:17.519
How do we get out of it with Spanish?
00:24:20.079 --> 00:24:38.400
Well, one of my questions was should we hold adult learners to a higher standard than our 18-year-old first time they're having beer versus a 70-year-old who's just getting ready for his excursion to pick up women and drink?
00:24:38.720 --> 00:24:41.920
Yeah, I don't know, I don't know about a higher standard.
00:24:41.920 --> 00:24:44.960
That doesn't feel fair to me at first glance.
00:24:44.960 --> 00:25:07.359
I do think an adult should know better in some regards, but also I think there is the question of what does your sanction mean to a 50-year-old person who maybe gives zero fucks about like whether or not they were too loud in the common area of the library when they were just trying to have a conversation with somebody.
00:25:07.359 --> 00:25:08.400
Uh yeah.
00:25:08.400 --> 00:25:22.400
Yeah, I gotta say, I I don't know, I'd be hard pressed to see myself in a situation where I would intentionally do something wrong, but also if I did, I feel like I'm old enough to know like I speed on the way to work.
00:25:22.400 --> 00:25:25.119
If I get pulled over, I'm not throwing a tantrum with the cop.
00:25:25.119 --> 00:25:28.240
I'm just gonna take my ticket and thank them and be on my way.
00:25:28.240 --> 00:25:43.039
If I intentionally did something as an adult learner on a college campus and got pulled into an office, I'm like, okay, part of me is probably thinking the inconvenience of the meeting is punishment enough as an adult because I've got 90 other things to do, but bring it on.
00:25:43.039 --> 00:25:45.920
How many essays will I be writing today?
00:25:47.759 --> 00:25:57.759
I have almost exclusively gotten rid of any sanctions that are meant to be punishments, as much as like, can I figure out what this person needs?
00:25:57.759 --> 00:26:24.240
Like that 70-year-old might not even know that we have executive functioning consultants on our campus that can help them learn to study strategies that are going to help them memorize dialogue faster in their Spanish class, or might not know that we have a social worker on campus that can help them figure out how to manage daycare and get to their therapy appointment and get to class on time.
00:26:24.240 --> 00:26:31.519
And if they had those things, maybe they wouldn't have cheated or freaked out on the staff member that reported them.
00:26:31.519 --> 00:26:36.559
Or so I wish almost as a field, we could just get rid of the word sanction.
00:26:36.559 --> 00:26:46.559
And if if all we did was customize outcomes to help someone be successful, but also to help repair any trust that was broken.
00:26:47.359 --> 00:26:48.559
I love I love this idea.
00:26:48.559 --> 00:26:50.079
There's not a sanction.
00:26:50.079 --> 00:26:52.559
Here's your customized outcome for your Yeah.
00:26:52.640 --> 00:27:03.920
I used to call them a sign, but here's like I'm gonna just gonna give you a warning, but in order to keep that warning, like keep this at a low level, I've got a little homework for you, but I think you're gonna love it.
00:27:07.519 --> 00:27:08.960
You're gonna love this.
00:27:08.960 --> 00:27:16.960
It's a it's a 2,000-word essay, uh, customized exclusively for you.
00:27:16.960 --> 00:27:18.319
I love it.
00:27:18.319 --> 00:27:40.720
I was just thinking, I worked for a a religious organization, a religious institution, and we had a lot of well, there were nuns all over the campus, and some of them lived in housing, and one of them was a an older and very mean nun who consistently violated the violated policy, but also one time.
00:27:40.720 --> 00:27:42.240
Let me let me set the stage here.
00:27:42.240 --> 00:27:46.079
I think you were allowed to smoke on campus, but not in residence halls.
00:27:46.079 --> 00:27:52.720
She frequently smoked inside and set her room on fire one time, evacuated the building.
00:27:52.720 --> 00:27:55.920
I don't know how or why she was allowed back on campus.
00:27:55.920 --> 00:27:58.640
I allegedly she had been there for like 20 years.
00:27:58.640 --> 00:28:02.559
I don't know what program she was on, but she was allowed to come back.
00:28:02.559 --> 00:28:06.240
I always wondered like, what was that conversation like?
00:28:06.240 --> 00:28:14.880
And I think the only outcome that I recall was that as a result of that, they completely banned smoking on campus.
00:28:14.880 --> 00:28:19.200
And everybody knew that it had it was related to that.
00:28:19.200 --> 00:28:26.559
So I I have to believe that part of the punishment was we're just gonna ban smoking across campus.
00:28:26.559 --> 00:28:35.279
And now everybody's gonna know that you mess this up for all the good people that were just smoking outside and having a cigarette out in the wild.
00:28:35.279 --> 00:28:36.480
No, you ruined it.
00:28:36.480 --> 00:28:40.319
You set a room on fire, and now we're gonna name this policy after you.
00:28:40.720 --> 00:28:44.319
But my question is, did it make her stop smoking?
00:28:44.319 --> 00:28:48.160
There was already a rule that you couldn't smoke where she was smoking.
00:28:48.160 --> 00:28:51.519
Why did they think that would stop the smoking?
00:28:52.000 --> 00:28:53.039
I don't know.
00:28:53.039 --> 00:28:53.920
Coward.
00:28:53.920 --> 00:29:02.079
But again, that was a that was a college campus where we did have a lot of adult learners, and most of them were graduate students.
00:29:02.079 --> 00:29:05.279
And I do think 99% of them probably follow the rules.
00:29:05.279 --> 00:29:08.720
But, you know, 1% of them burned their room down with a cigarette.
00:29:08.720 --> 00:29:09.839
So there you go.
00:29:10.240 --> 00:29:24.640
This feels like many diversification strategies that colleges have employed where they see there could be a money grab, like, oh, older people, all right, cha-ching.
00:29:24.640 --> 00:29:31.359
Which could I'm like, I already my wheels are turned like revenue, like, okay, we have empty residence hall rooms.
00:29:31.359 --> 00:29:34.079
Maybe we could rent them for two nights.
00:29:34.079 --> 00:29:39.039
Like if you have to come to campus for one of those classes, you're talking about like 6 to 9 p.m.
00:29:39.039 --> 00:29:52.960
or 6 to 10 p.m., maybe you could pay $30 and sleep in Downe Hall and uh, you know, and the college has 40 bucks to now that it didn't have before.
00:29:52.960 --> 00:30:00.880
But always when those strategies happen, you have to ask, like, are we ready to help these students be successful?
00:30:00.880 --> 00:30:16.079
Because so oftentimes it's not, it's just like, check, all right, we just got 30% bigger enrollment, and yet students are really angry and don't feel like they belong, and they are not gonna donate when they're alumni.
00:30:16.319 --> 00:30:22.480
Yeah, I I worked for a school that used to send out these very diverse housing brochures.
00:30:22.480 --> 00:30:26.559
Our campus was not as diverse as what we were advertising.
00:30:26.559 --> 00:30:31.519
So students would show up and look around and say, I don't see anybody that looks like me.
00:30:31.519 --> 00:30:41.119
I also do not believe that we were culturally ready to have students on campus that were different from the people that work there, unfortunately.
00:30:41.119 --> 00:30:49.839
It felt like a bait and switch to me that we were trying to convince students through a catalog that something existed that that did not exist.
00:30:49.839 --> 00:30:50.640
So yeah.
00:30:50.960 --> 00:31:06.240
But imagine if you were like, I think that Chronicle would come or Inside Higher Ed would come and do like, look at this campus doing workshops on how to cross-generational communication stuff and how do you be an authority when you're younger?
00:31:06.240 --> 00:31:14.079
And uh like there's so so many ways that you could get more and more and more attention in a positive way for your institution.
00:31:14.480 --> 00:31:27.599
When I read the article that you sent, my immediate thought was this is an attempt by four-year colleges and institutions to grab at a student population that community colleges have served for many decades.
00:31:27.599 --> 00:31:34.559
I think it's always been the bread and butter of community colleges to educate and train adult learners.
00:31:34.559 --> 00:31:36.400
We're embedded in the community.
00:31:36.400 --> 00:31:44.480
But like every school around the country right now, we are all trying to attract a smaller demographic of traditional age students.
00:31:44.480 --> 00:31:49.680
So that faculty member at University of Kansas who had a brilliant idea, guess what?
00:31:49.680 --> 00:31:53.519
It's a brilliant idea that's existed for decades on community college campuses.
00:31:53.519 --> 00:32:04.160
You you are just now having to engage in different enrollment tactics than you did because you are losing money and you're losing endowments, and it's a problem.
00:32:04.160 --> 00:32:22.160
So I I guess my uh my advice is for colleges and universities that have these large endowments, figure out how to attract adult learners in a way that isn't disenfranchising the community colleges that have been working with you for the past several decades as a pipeline.
00:32:22.480 --> 00:32:25.920
I needed to hear that because I do have my little ch-ching going.
00:32:26.400 --> 00:32:27.599
It's a valid point though.
00:32:27.599 --> 00:32:34.000
But there are, when you're a residential campus, there are so many other res revenue streams that you could be tapping into.
00:32:34.000 --> 00:32:41.279
You've got dorms, you've got tons of opportunities to monetize things in a residential setting if you want.
00:32:41.279 --> 00:32:46.799
You can invite franchises on campus that have profit sharing models.
00:32:46.799 --> 00:32:49.839
You can have mixed-use buildings on campus.
00:32:49.839 --> 00:32:52.559
You probably have endowments that you can tap into.
00:32:52.559 --> 00:32:55.519
These are all things that most community colleges don't have.
00:32:55.519 --> 00:33:01.920
So it is unfortunately all about money at the end of the day, but sometimes it's got to be about making choices.
00:33:01.920 --> 00:33:06.160
So are all of your programs at your four-year institution viable?
00:33:06.160 --> 00:33:12.400
Or are you propping up a program with five faculty and you have five students in your program?
00:33:12.400 --> 00:33:17.039
Okay, well, maybe that's a financial opportunity that you can look at.
00:33:17.039 --> 00:33:17.440
Yeah.
00:33:17.440 --> 00:33:19.440
I'll get off my soapbox.
00:33:19.440 --> 00:33:23.359
And I love competency-based education.
00:33:23.359 --> 00:33:27.839
I've been a strong advocate advocate of it for many years, especially.
00:33:27.839 --> 00:33:33.440
You know, we had at the last school I worked at a phenomenal simulation lab in healthcare.
00:33:33.440 --> 00:33:40.960
Being able to demonstrate that you know how to do something in my mind is far better than demonstrating that you have an academic knowledge of it.
00:33:40.960 --> 00:33:44.640
I don't care how good you are at explaining how to draw blood.
00:33:44.640 --> 00:33:49.200
If you stick a needle in my arm at CVS, I don't want to feel it.
00:33:49.200 --> 00:34:02.079
I want the person who can show that they have done it, you know, a hundred times, that they can demonstrate the skill and move on with their life instead of, you know, sitting through college classes on learning how to do something they already know.
00:34:02.079 --> 00:34:02.559
So yeah.
00:34:02.880 --> 00:34:03.200
Yeah.
00:34:03.200 --> 00:34:08.400
Let's shut to this down a little early because we got our we got our traders to get in planned.
00:34:08.719 --> 00:34:09.920
Gotta get our costumes on.
00:34:10.079 --> 00:34:10.559
Mm-hmm.
00:34:10.559 --> 00:34:13.519
Do you have one do you have your costume prepared?
00:34:14.159 --> 00:34:22.000
It's not fully prepared, but I think it will be um referential to an Alan an Alan Cummings situation.
00:34:22.000 --> 00:34:24.800
At least from like the waist up, you know.
00:34:25.199 --> 00:34:25.920
Love it.
00:34:25.920 --> 00:34:27.360
All right.
00:34:27.360 --> 00:34:29.840
I will see you in a few nights.
00:34:29.840 --> 00:34:34.320
And for all of you out there, we still have room for trader observers.
00:34:34.320 --> 00:34:37.760
And we'll put the link in our podcast notes below.
00:34:37.760 --> 00:34:40.639
And uh, we'll see you Wednesday night.
00:34:40.639 --> 00:34:41.519
Bye, Kurt.
00:34:41.519 --> 00:34:42.320
Bye.
00:34:42.320 --> 00:34:47.039
Ms.
00:34:47.039 --> 00:34:51.039
Behavior is written and produced by Colette Shaw and Kurt Doan.
00:34:51.039 --> 00:34:57.280
Theme music was written and performed by Kevin McLeod from Incompotech.com.
00:34:57.280 --> 00:34:58.800
You can contact Ms.
00:34:58.800 --> 00:35:00.000
Behavior at Ms.
00:35:00.000 --> 00:35:02.800
BehaviorCollege at gmail.com.
00:35:02.800 --> 00:35:06.800
That's MSBhavior College at gmail.com.
00:00:09.759 --> 00:00:11.439
Hello and welcome to Ms.
00:00:11.439 --> 00:00:15.679
Behavior, the podcast for college student conduct professionals.
00:00:15.679 --> 00:00:17.120
My name is Colette.
00:00:17.440 --> 00:00:18.160
And I'm Kurt.
00:00:18.640 --> 00:00:19.120
Kurt.
00:00:19.120 --> 00:00:21.440
We're only days away from the Ms.
00:00:21.440 --> 00:00:22.879
Be Traitors game.
00:00:23.280 --> 00:00:24.320
How excited are you?
00:00:24.559 --> 00:00:25.920
I'm pretty damn excited.
00:00:25.920 --> 00:00:33.359
I got my I looked up what kind of eyeliner Claudia Winkleman uses, and it just arrived in the mail yesterday.
00:00:33.840 --> 00:00:41.119
I feel like it's like industrial because it's so like just I don't know even how to explain it.
00:00:41.119 --> 00:00:41.920
It's so pronounced.
00:00:41.920 --> 00:00:42.320
I love it.
00:00:42.560 --> 00:00:45.520
I didn't think I would be able to get it off last night.
00:00:45.520 --> 00:00:51.600
Only the last thing is just my my black hair dye to go with my wig.
00:00:51.920 --> 00:00:52.719
And some bangs.
00:00:52.960 --> 00:00:54.240
Oh, I got the bangs, yep.
00:00:54.240 --> 00:01:03.439
I've got a wig that uh I don't I think I have too much hair to stuff it all up into the wig, so I'm gonna have to dye the parts that show.
00:01:03.759 --> 00:01:08.159
How are you feeling about the uh season, uh the current season of the traitors?
00:01:08.480 --> 00:01:10.400
I need to binge watch it.
00:01:10.719 --> 00:01:12.640
Oh, it's is it good?
00:01:12.640 --> 00:01:14.079
It is.
00:01:14.079 --> 00:01:18.079
You know, it's some interesting choices as far as spacing it out.
00:01:18.079 --> 00:01:24.959
I think they dropped two episodes right away, and then the next week they had a third one, and then there was a week off.
00:01:25.200 --> 00:01:26.000
Oh, what?
00:01:26.319 --> 00:01:29.040
Yeah, I felt like I was waiting a long time.
00:01:29.040 --> 00:01:44.480
Interesting, though, to watch the show and also be watching folks emerge from TikTok because they are all kind of sharing their insights about the game on TikTok while you're able to watch the show.
00:01:44.480 --> 00:01:51.439
And some interesting uh side chatter around just what it means to be a man and masculinity.
00:01:51.439 --> 00:02:07.519
There is a very feminine presenting man on the show who identifies as heterosexual and cisgender, and people are challenging him on that, and his spouse as well, basically saying, Oh, your husband's gay.
00:02:07.519 --> 00:02:09.599
And she's like, No, he's not.
00:02:09.599 --> 00:02:12.960
So it's it's just interesting.
00:02:12.960 --> 00:02:21.280
I feel like I've become more used to watching celebrities and getting to see kind of behind the curtain of what it what celebrities might be like in real life.
00:02:21.280 --> 00:02:27.599
So it's an adjustment to go back to seeing just regular people, or maybe people.
00:02:27.599 --> 00:02:31.199
There are a couple people that are TikTok famous on this episode.
00:02:31.199 --> 00:02:32.000
So yeah.
00:02:32.479 --> 00:02:33.280
Commoners.
00:02:33.280 --> 00:02:34.800
Commoners.
00:02:34.800 --> 00:02:36.080
Commoners, we've called them.
00:02:36.080 --> 00:02:37.840
They're just like actors.
00:02:40.639 --> 00:02:42.800
They're just as complicated, you know.
00:02:42.800 --> 00:02:43.360
Yeah.
00:02:43.759 --> 00:02:48.080
I tend to save them all up because I do like to watch them three or four at a time.
00:02:48.080 --> 00:02:55.199
So I wanted to have a bunch in the bank, but now we're closing in on go time for our Ms.
00:02:55.199 --> 00:02:58.960
Be Traito rs event, and uh I need to catch up.
00:02:59.360 --> 00:03:01.599
It's gonna be a fun evening of community.
00:03:02.080 --> 00:03:02.479
It is.
00:03:02.479 --> 00:03:03.280
I can't wait.
00:03:03.280 --> 00:03:04.240
I'm very excited.
00:03:04.240 --> 00:03:12.879
So I got a good article for you this week that I it it raised a lot of student conduct memories for me, I guess.
00:03:12.879 --> 00:03:20.560
And it it's it was from the Chronicle of Higher Education called Is This How Colleges Woo Back Students?
00:03:20.560 --> 00:03:24.080
And I was like, hmm, what what's the take on this?
00:03:24.080 --> 00:03:28.560
And it was to think about recruiting older students.
00:03:28.560 --> 00:03:38.080
I was just thinking about like, are we you you always talk about um being at a campus that asks itself, are we student ready?
00:03:38.080 --> 00:03:42.960
And I am wondering, like, are we older student ready?
00:03:42.960 --> 00:03:59.199
Because this made a lot of interesting points that like older, there are just more of us in the older ranges as AI is pushing people out of jobs, they're gonna be a lot more career changers going back and getting new education.
00:03:59.199 --> 00:04:03.039
So, like, this is sort of brilliant, but are we ready?
00:04:03.039 --> 00:04:11.039
So I don't know if you had any time to think about this, because you work on a campus because bread and butter is is older.
00:04:11.520 --> 00:04:22.240
I've had about a decade and a half to think about this because this really is, it has been a part of the discussion at community colleges, at least ours, for a while.
00:04:22.240 --> 00:04:24.480
You know, we talk about the enrollment cliff a lot.
00:04:24.480 --> 00:04:44.079
And if you know that there is a declining number of traditional college-age students who are going to be coming to campus and you want to remain a viable college or university, then that means you have to start to pursue a slightly older demographic of students.
00:04:44.079 --> 00:04:52.720
So adult learners have been, I think, part of our equation for a while, and even more so, I think, in our current strategic plan.
00:04:53.040 --> 00:04:54.720
It's not just students.
00:04:54.720 --> 00:05:01.120
I came back from New Zealand last year, and I I don't know why I had oh, I do know why.
00:05:01.120 --> 00:05:12.560
I think some of their staffing models for their residences used the old like house mother, house father house parent roles.
00:05:12.560 --> 00:05:29.199
And I am in a lot of spaces where people are saying that their residence life folks aren't prepared for the job that it is now, or they're not willing anymore to nobody wants to do on call or to live on.
00:05:29.199 --> 00:05:31.199
I was like, you know who would?
00:05:31.199 --> 00:05:32.800
My sister.
00:05:32.800 --> 00:05:36.319
She and her husband have retired.
00:05:36.319 --> 00:05:39.600
Uh he was a longtime educator and coach.
00:05:39.600 --> 00:05:46.560
And I'm like, oh my God, I'd hire them in one second to live in a hall and like all you have to do is be trainable.
00:05:46.560 --> 00:05:51.360
I think we could think about older people in a lot of different ways.
00:05:51.360 --> 00:05:54.240
But as students, let's think this through.
00:05:54.560 --> 00:05:56.959
Yeah, I it's interesting to me.
00:05:56.959 --> 00:06:02.959
There is an inverse relationship between the economy and enrollment at community colleges.
00:06:02.959 --> 00:06:09.680
So when the economy is good, our enrollment's down, typically speaking, as a sector.
00:06:09.680 --> 00:06:14.160
And when the economy is not as good, you see a lot more enrollment.
00:06:14.160 --> 00:06:29.600
So when we had the housing crisis in the early 2000s or the late, the late aughts that produced this enrollment cliff, there was a surge in adult students coming back to community college for training opportunities, second careers.
00:06:29.600 --> 00:06:33.680
They lost their job and they didn't maybe like what they wanted were doing to begin with.
00:06:33.680 --> 00:06:36.319
So they came back and did the second act.
00:06:36.319 --> 00:06:47.040
But I think what I'm noticing also this time around is as we're doing searches, I am seeing a lot of people also saying, I retired from another career.
00:06:47.040 --> 00:06:50.000
I'm not ready to retire permanently yet.
00:06:50.000 --> 00:06:56.000
So I would like to come and provide my services, either part-time or full-time, to your school.
00:06:56.000 --> 00:07:01.120
And I don't know if that is a combination of the economy is bad.
00:07:01.120 --> 00:07:12.959
So people are maybe not financially ready to retire, or if it's just, I feel like I know more people that don't want to retire in the way that my parents retired, which is it's like a light switch.
00:07:12.959 --> 00:07:18.720
You turn it off and you stop going to your job that you've gone to for the past 40 years.
00:07:18.720 --> 00:07:20.480
That doesn't resonate with me.
00:07:20.480 --> 00:07:26.319
I feel like it probably doesn't resonate with you based on our discussions that we've had.
00:07:26.560 --> 00:07:26.879
Yeah.
00:07:26.879 --> 00:07:34.480
I I read more and more, and I have friends going back to law school, medical school in their 50s.
00:07:34.480 --> 00:07:38.000
Just saw somebody in their 60s get a law degree.
00:07:38.000 --> 00:07:41.120
And it's just like they're interested in the learning.
00:07:41.120 --> 00:07:59.759
And boy, it I do you remember in college occasionally, like I went to a tr pretty traditional university, but there would always be like that one 40-year-old in the class that always had their hand up, asking questions, the so-called non-traditional student, which is more and more becoming the traditional student.
00:07:59.759 --> 00:08:03.600
What professor wouldn't want that person in a class?
00:08:03.600 --> 00:08:05.920
Like they're so eager to learn.
00:08:06.240 --> 00:08:30.399
I I remember very distinctly as a sophomore being in finally in my psychology classes for my major, and every class there was this dude who probably like late 40s, early 50s, took up all the oxygen in the room, like hand up for everything, keeping us like minutes after the bell had rung, the proverbial bell.
00:08:30.399 --> 00:08:35.519
I'm like, dude, I know you don't have anything better to do, but there is a party that I gotta get to.
00:08:35.519 --> 00:08:40.159
And could you just have this conversation offline with the professor?
00:08:40.159 --> 00:08:46.399
I I feel like everybody was of the same mindset that this dude was a colossal brown noser.
00:08:46.399 --> 00:08:52.559
And uh, but you know, as somebody that is now that age, I think they were probably just passionate about psychology.
00:08:52.559 --> 00:08:59.519
And I hope they went on and had an amazing career as a psychologist or whatever, you know, whatever they were there for.
00:08:59.679 --> 00:08:59.919
Yeah.
00:09:00.159 --> 00:09:01.919
And that all that was not for naught.
00:09:01.919 --> 00:09:03.120
So yes.
00:09:03.840 --> 00:09:12.399
So I I put on my student conduct cap when I think of some of this, like who would we see then coming through our office?
00:09:12.399 --> 00:09:18.559
And the first group I would think of would be people accused of academic misconduct.
00:09:18.960 --> 00:09:20.480
That's where my head goes too.
00:09:20.480 --> 00:09:22.240
Accidental cheaters.
00:09:22.559 --> 00:09:23.200
Yeah.
00:09:23.200 --> 00:09:28.960
We we were joking, uh, we did that episode talking about our moms who had passed away.
00:09:28.960 --> 00:09:33.600
And like, what would they have done with AI if they'd had it?
00:09:33.600 --> 00:09:41.759
And uh I have had some of those cases because um my university, a lot of our non-traditional students are grad students.
00:09:41.759 --> 00:09:45.759
They're like, I didn't use AI, I used Google.
00:09:45.759 --> 00:09:48.320
Like, well, let's take a look at your Google.
00:09:48.320 --> 00:09:48.879
Uh-huh.
00:09:48.879 --> 00:09:54.720
This is called Gemini that's that's having the conversation with you.
00:09:54.720 --> 00:10:13.679
And it's drawing from it, looks like former students' old tests and exam uh exam prep guides, but those students had a lot more defensiveness than a a sort of typical undergrad would.
00:10:13.679 --> 00:10:23.279
And I was glad I was the one hearing the case because I was older than them, but my my two colleagues would be about 20 years younger than them.
00:10:23.679 --> 00:10:31.440
You know, I I go back to your original question about whether or not our colleges and universities are adult learner ready.
00:10:31.440 --> 00:10:33.360
And I would say that they are not.
00:10:33.360 --> 00:10:43.360
I I think many schools, even if they are serving an adult learner population, are still structured around a model of 8:30 a.m.
00:10:43.360 --> 00:10:44.720
to 4:30 p.m.
00:10:44.720 --> 00:10:49.200
That's when classes happen, that's when our services are provided.
00:10:49.200 --> 00:11:02.720
And if you happen to be one of the people that takes that block of classes between 5 and 9 p.m., you know, sorry, the cafeteria is closed, the registrar is closed, the cashier's office is closed.
00:11:02.720 --> 00:11:05.679
Good luck getting to the library, that might be closed too.
00:11:05.679 --> 00:11:17.120
So you're working with a population of people that are juggling probably a job and family, and then adding academics to the mix.
00:11:17.120 --> 00:11:24.240
You're pulling away, or I don't want to say denying them, but you're making it more difficult for them to access services that they might benefit from.
00:11:24.240 --> 00:11:34.480
I want to assume that everybody is doing the best they can, but that you're also just creating a pressure cooker of, oh my gosh, I have so much riding on this now and I need to succeed.
00:11:34.480 --> 00:11:38.399
Is that a recipe for academic dishonesty?
00:11:38.399 --> 00:11:39.440
It could be.
00:11:39.440 --> 00:12:05.519
I think the article you shared was largely, almost myopically, focused on competency-based education, which I think is certainly a wonderful solution.
00:12:05.519 --> 00:12:19.039
But also I think, you know, rethinking how we provide services on campus, how we test NSS knowledge, you know, having high stakes, you know, midterm final only for an adult learner.
00:12:19.039 --> 00:12:31.440
I'm not, you know, advocating to bend our curricular deliver around adults, but I think understanding that they are coming to this learning environment with a completely set, different set of expectations and needs.
00:12:31.440 --> 00:12:37.759
If you're not in the business of addressing those needs, then you're not an adult learner-centered campus.
00:12:38.080 --> 00:12:40.799
I'm trying to picture myself in my 30s.
00:12:40.799 --> 00:12:52.879
Well, right before we hopped on the air, I was sort of laughing about our conduct offices that say, like, well, we're educational, and yet you're meeting with somebody that's 20 years older than you.
00:12:52.879 --> 00:12:54.799
You know, what is that conversation?
00:12:54.799 --> 00:13:02.159
You know, what wisdom are you going to impart on someone who has done a lot more living of life than you have?
00:13:02.159 --> 00:13:05.919
And could we take ourselves a little bit off that high horse?
00:13:05.919 --> 00:13:10.720
But I'm even picturing a student I had last year in a cheating case.
00:13:10.720 --> 00:13:18.080
And she said, Colette, I did not know what the hell was going on in this class.
00:13:18.080 --> 00:13:18.960
It's true.
00:13:18.960 --> 00:13:21.360
I was not doing well in the class.
00:13:21.360 --> 00:13:27.039
Everything looks like, you know, I I was failing, and so I cheated to get myself out of this.
00:13:27.039 --> 00:13:31.039
But I didn't even like, I didn't even know where to begin.
00:13:31.039 --> 00:13:38.639
If like if I had been cheating, I didn't even know what the right answers would have been or how to get them.
00:13:38.639 --> 00:13:46.960
But if that student had been going to office hours with somebody that was quite a bit younger than them, would the younger person have been ready?
00:13:46.960 --> 00:13:49.519
I do know where I'm going with this.
00:13:49.840 --> 00:13:51.360
I I see what you're saying exactly.
00:13:51.360 --> 00:13:52.799
And I go a step further.
00:13:52.799 --> 00:13:57.120
Would they have even had office hours when it was convenient for the adult learner?
00:13:57.120 --> 00:14:03.919
But I going back to your question, I I have been in a situation very early in my career.
00:14:03.919 --> 00:14:07.360
I was 24 and I was a hall director.
00:14:07.360 --> 00:14:08.799
I think it was my first.
00:14:08.799 --> 00:14:11.200
No, it's my second job as a hall director.
00:14:11.200 --> 00:14:15.759
I had an RA who was, I think, 40, 45 years old.
00:14:15.759 --> 00:14:17.440
He was ex-military.
00:14:17.440 --> 00:14:28.960
I felt so insecure in that supervisory relationship because here we've got this hypermasculine, ex-military, very authoritative, authoritarian authoritative.
00:14:29.360 --> 00:14:30.159
Yeah, yeah.
00:14:30.399 --> 00:14:30.879
Yeah.
00:14:30.879 --> 00:14:32.720
Very authoritative guy.
00:14:32.720 --> 00:14:37.120
He was very kind, but I found him to be very intimidating.
00:14:37.120 --> 00:14:40.320
He was closer in age to my dad than he was to me.
00:14:40.320 --> 00:14:46.879
And here I am trying to evaluate him, give him feedback about what he's doing.
00:14:46.879 --> 00:14:51.120
And I felt like I felt like an imposter.
00:14:51.120 --> 00:14:52.799
Uh 75% of the time.
00:14:52.799 --> 00:14:56.320
I think there were a couple of times where he he said, I'm dealing with this situation.
00:14:56.320 --> 00:14:57.759
I don't know what to do.
00:14:57.759 --> 00:15:01.120
And I felt like the best I could do was partner with him on it.
00:15:01.120 --> 00:15:02.639
I'm like, here's what I'm thinking.
00:15:02.639 --> 00:15:05.519
But also, you're older than me.
00:15:05.519 --> 00:15:06.080
Yeah.
00:15:06.080 --> 00:15:09.200
And but more importantly, he knew the students better than I did.
00:15:09.200 --> 00:15:09.840
I don't know.
00:15:09.840 --> 00:15:27.360
I I think it's it's something to add to your your toolkit is having an experience like that, it really does kind of throw into question like what authority do you have um to lead in a situation where maybe you're not the most knowledgeable person of the room.
00:15:27.360 --> 00:15:30.480
And I think it's a good, it's a good life lesson.
00:15:30.480 --> 00:15:31.919
It's a good job lesson.
00:15:32.320 --> 00:15:36.000
And I think you can learn fluency in it.
00:15:36.000 --> 00:15:40.559
I one of my favorite people, I just found out she's not there anymore.
00:15:40.559 --> 00:15:47.519
But I've had to buy my own health insurance for the past two years, uh, since I'm not working on a campus.
00:15:47.519 --> 00:15:53.360
And the woman I went to, she looked like in her 30s, but dang, she knew her stuff.
00:15:53.360 --> 00:15:56.080
And I really, really respected her.
00:15:56.080 --> 00:16:01.600
I felt very respected by her, but also that she was the authority.
00:16:01.600 --> 00:16:18.639
And I think that's probably come with practice and like can we prepare our campus to have that same like every faculty member, every staff, and how many staffs are considered entry-level in student affairs?
00:16:18.960 --> 00:16:31.919
I do think it is conceptually something we do well in higher education, throwing people together with different perspectives and creating environments where they learn from each other.
00:16:31.919 --> 00:16:35.039
I think about the college that I work at.
00:16:35.039 --> 00:16:43.519
We serve a county that is very diverse ethnically and also, I would say, probably politically.
00:16:43.519 --> 00:16:58.960
And it can be the case that you grew up in a very rural part of the northern part of the county and you're going to campus for the first time with somebody who grew up in the very progressive southern part of the county, and now you're sitting next to them in a classroom.
00:16:58.960 --> 00:17:06.880
And our faculty are exceptionally skilled at getting folks to talk to each other and listen and engage in dialogue.
00:17:06.880 --> 00:17:14.160
I think it's not to me a big leap to say what could that look like for generational differences.
00:17:14.160 --> 00:17:27.200
Um imagine the kinds of discussions you can have in a history class with somebody who maybe saw something happen that you're reading about because they happen to be a Gen X person and not a millennial.
00:17:27.200 --> 00:17:34.720
But it does require, of course, intentionality around, you know, building that into your teaching lexicon.
00:17:34.720 --> 00:17:47.359
And I'm sure, you know, as conduct professionals, how do you have these really serious conversations with somebody who might be older than your parent or your parents' age?
00:17:47.680 --> 00:17:58.720
I'm just realizing now developmentally, do you remember when you first went to grad school, maybe, or maybe you took some classes in college and you came home and you started spouting the lingo of it?
00:17:58.720 --> 00:18:07.920
Like, well, that's a very dualistic way to work at a more multiplistic situation and uh according to blah, blah, blah.
00:18:07.920 --> 00:18:17.200
And really what I appreciate about a true expert is they can explain something in a really accessible way.
00:18:17.200 --> 00:18:22.000
So giving people that practice, like, don't use all the jargon.
00:18:22.000 --> 00:18:29.200
Like, how many times have I been on like a customer service call and I'll say, like, talk to me like I'm a kindergartner.
00:18:29.200 --> 00:18:32.240
I don't need all the jargon about whatever.
00:18:32.240 --> 00:18:33.359
Yeah.
00:18:33.359 --> 00:18:38.240
Just just help me through this, and I think that could be part of it.
00:18:38.559 --> 00:18:51.839
I think back to when I started work, I I think part of what appealed to me about higher education was the structure and a feeling that, especially in conduct at the time, that it was like a menu.
00:18:51.839 --> 00:18:55.759
I could look and say, they did this, this is what they get.
00:18:55.759 --> 00:18:58.319
Here are the sanctions that are appropriate for that.
00:18:58.319 --> 00:19:01.440
As somebody who likes structure, very appealing.
00:19:01.440 --> 00:19:06.720
And the older I get, the more I feel like, how wrong was that?
00:19:06.720 --> 00:19:11.440
Because at the end of the day, it's never the what, it's the why.
00:19:11.440 --> 00:19:14.720
Like, why did somebody do the thing that they did?
00:19:14.720 --> 00:19:22.240
What situation created an environment where somebody felt like that was the best choice to make?
00:19:22.240 --> 00:19:40.160
And I think I hope, my sense is that most student conduct professionals are probably better equipped to deal with diversity of all kinds when it comes to a conduct situation than I ever was 20, 30 years ago at the start of my career.
00:19:40.160 --> 00:19:47.759
So I have a lot of hope for this generation of higher education professionals and conduct professionals specifically.
00:19:48.160 --> 00:19:55.680
It could be sort of interesting to beta test things on older people who would ask why.
00:19:55.680 --> 00:20:01.680
Okay, I see it's on your chart that you're supposed to give me an alcohol 101 workshop.
00:20:01.680 --> 00:20:02.559
Well, why?
00:20:02.960 --> 00:20:09.680
Why is a question I would not have dealt well with early in my career, because it would have been a because this is what it says.
00:20:09.680 --> 00:20:11.119
I would have had no other.
00:20:11.119 --> 00:20:11.519
Yeah.
00:20:12.079 --> 00:20:21.839
I try, I try to never assign something that I couldn't with a straight face feel like I could give myself without making myself roll my eyeballs.
00:20:21.839 --> 00:20:32.640
If we truly believe students are adults, don't treat them like children and imagine now that your students really are adult adults.
00:20:32.640 --> 00:20:36.960
I can I swing in another direction now here?
00:20:37.200 --> 00:20:37.839
Yeah.
00:20:38.160 --> 00:20:42.000
Uh we talk about being prepared for students.
00:20:42.000 --> 00:20:56.640
Traditional age students are in the age group where mental health stuff can often start revealing itself, like psychiatric stuff, um, schizophrenia, really serious stuff.
00:20:56.640 --> 00:21:06.960
And with a traditional age student, for most of them, we are still able to pick up a phone and say, hey, family member, we're gonna need you to come get your student.
00:21:06.960 --> 00:21:21.359
When somebody's 45, and I have experienced this, and they start hearing voices in the classroom or talking to themselves out on campus, they're yours.
00:21:21.759 --> 00:21:22.240
Yeah.
00:21:22.480 --> 00:21:28.559
And are are we prepared for what a care team, what those sorts of emergencies might look like.
00:21:28.960 --> 00:21:36.640
I also think the circumstances that adult learners can come to campus with are they could be more complicated.
00:21:36.640 --> 00:21:38.640
Maybe that's not a fair assessment.
00:21:38.640 --> 00:21:41.359
Different is certainly, I think, a good word for it.
00:21:41.359 --> 00:21:44.880
But I just think about the stress and pressure.
00:21:44.880 --> 00:21:57.359
I I keep going back to thinking about like a like a single mom or somebody that is the breadwinner for their family, and they're trying to juggle all of this and what that must feel like from a stress perspective.
00:21:57.359 --> 00:22:04.079
And, you know, hoping that faculty Can pick up on that and refer when appropriate.
00:22:04.079 --> 00:22:10.160
But then also what you know what resources are available for an adult learner in those kinds of positions.
00:22:10.160 --> 00:22:23.759
I think one of the things our school does exceptionally well is trying to connect adult learners with financial resources so that, you know, you're taking that off of the plate at least and they can focus on that piece of it.
00:22:23.759 --> 00:22:47.200
But when you're sitting in class and you get a text message that your teen kid just got in a car accident or is sick and needs you, and you're having to pick up and leave and miss out on class time, there are so many, in my mind, other things that can go wrong that maybe you don't have to worry about when you are 18 years old and arriving to college for the first time.
00:22:47.519 --> 00:22:47.680
Yeah.
00:22:47.680 --> 00:22:56.720
What does an emergency contact mean for somebody that has three kids that need to be picked up at school and practice in a game?
00:22:56.720 --> 00:23:00.319
And yeah, that's a great consideration.
00:23:01.200 --> 00:23:05.599
And I think it's also just understanding why are people on your campus?
00:23:05.599 --> 00:23:07.119
Why are they in your classroom?
00:23:07.119 --> 00:23:23.920
Because, you know, as much as my mind immediately goes to adult who needs to get back into the workforce, I also know that, you know, when my grandfather was 70, he and his friend took a Spanish class because they went to Costa Rica and went fishing every year and wanted to learn how to speak the language.
00:23:23.920 --> 00:23:37.920
And I gotta tell you, I would not have wanted to been that professor because my grandfather was probably the most disruptive person that they ever encountered.
00:23:37.920 --> 00:23:46.000
Because he I guarantee you, all he wanted to know was where to go pick up loose women, where to get beer, and where the bathroom was.
00:23:46.000 --> 00:23:48.480
And that was his main goal for being in that classroom.
00:23:48.480 --> 00:23:54.400
But he he outright told me, he's like, Yeah, we go in the we sit in the back of the room and ask ridiculous questions all day.
00:23:54.400 --> 00:23:59.359
And they were all relevant, but it was like, hey, how do how do we say the motorcycle broke down?
00:23:59.359 --> 00:24:02.160
And you know, it's conversational Spanish.
00:24:02.160 --> 00:24:04.960
Most people are just there to get the basics.
00:24:04.960 --> 00:24:08.799
They had very okay, uh, we really like scallops.
00:24:08.799 --> 00:24:09.920
How do we ask?
00:24:09.920 --> 00:24:13.200
Here's a scenario.
00:24:13.200 --> 00:24:14.880
We've been pulled over by the police.
00:24:14.880 --> 00:24:17.519
How do we get out of it with Spanish?
00:24:20.079 --> 00:24:38.400
Well, one of my questions was should we hold adult learners to a higher standard than our 18-year-old first time they're having beer versus a 70-year-old who's just getting ready for his excursion to pick up women and drink?
00:24:38.720 --> 00:24:41.920
Yeah, I don't know, I don't know about a higher standard.
00:24:41.920 --> 00:24:44.960
That doesn't feel fair to me at first glance.
00:24:44.960 --> 00:25:07.359
I do think an adult should know better in some regards, but also I think there is the question of what does your sanction mean to a 50-year-old person who maybe gives zero fucks about like whether or not they were too loud in the common area of the library when they were just trying to have a conversation with somebody.
00:25:07.359 --> 00:25:08.400
Uh yeah.
00:25:08.400 --> 00:25:22.400
Yeah, I gotta say, I I don't know, I'd be hard pressed to see myself in a situation where I would intentionally do something wrong, but also if I did, I feel like I'm old enough to know like I speed on the way to work.
00:25:22.400 --> 00:25:25.119
If I get pulled over, I'm not throwing a tantrum with the cop.
00:25:25.119 --> 00:25:28.240
I'm just gonna take my ticket and thank them and be on my way.
00:25:28.240 --> 00:25:43.039
If I intentionally did something as an adult learner on a college campus and got pulled into an office, I'm like, okay, part of me is probably thinking the inconvenience of the meeting is punishment enough as an adult because I've got 90 other things to do, but bring it on.
00:25:43.039 --> 00:25:45.920
How many essays will I be writing today?
00:25:47.759 --> 00:25:57.759
I have almost exclusively gotten rid of any sanctions that are meant to be punishments, as much as like, can I figure out what this person needs?
00:25:57.759 --> 00:26:24.240
Like that 70-year-old might not even know that we have executive functioning consultants on our campus that can help them learn to study strategies that are going to help them memorize dialogue faster in their Spanish class, or might not know that we have a social worker on campus that can help them figure out how to manage daycare and get to their therapy appointment and get to class on time.
00:26:24.240 --> 00:26:31.519
And if they had those things, maybe they wouldn't have cheated or freaked out on the staff member that reported them.
00:26:31.519 --> 00:26:36.559
Or so I wish almost as a field, we could just get rid of the word sanction.
00:26:36.559 --> 00:26:46.559
And if if all we did was customize outcomes to help someone be successful, but also to help repair any trust that was broken.
00:26:47.359 --> 00:26:48.559
I love I love this idea.
00:26:48.559 --> 00:26:50.079
There's not a sanction.
00:26:50.079 --> 00:26:52.559
Here's your customized outcome for your Yeah.
00:26:52.640 --> 00:27:03.920
I used to call them a sign, but here's like I'm gonna just gonna give you a warning, but in order to keep that warning, like keep this at a low level, I've got a little homework for you, but I think you're gonna love it.
00:27:07.519 --> 00:27:08.960
You're gonna love this.
00:27:08.960 --> 00:27:16.960
It's a it's a 2,000-word essay, uh, customized exclusively for you.
00:27:16.960 --> 00:27:18.319
I love it.
00:27:18.319 --> 00:27:40.720
I was just thinking, I worked for a a religious organization, a religious institution, and we had a lot of well, there were nuns all over the campus, and some of them lived in housing, and one of them was a an older and very mean nun who consistently violated the violated policy, but also one time.
00:27:40.720 --> 00:27:42.240
Let me let me set the stage here.
00:27:42.240 --> 00:27:46.079
I think you were allowed to smoke on campus, but not in residence halls.
00:27:46.079 --> 00:27:52.720
She frequently smoked inside and set her room on fire one time, evacuated the building.
00:27:52.720 --> 00:27:55.920
I don't know how or why she was allowed back on campus.
00:27:55.920 --> 00:27:58.640
I allegedly she had been there for like 20 years.
00:27:58.640 --> 00:28:02.559
I don't know what program she was on, but she was allowed to come back.
00:28:02.559 --> 00:28:06.240
I always wondered like, what was that conversation like?
00:28:06.240 --> 00:28:14.880
And I think the only outcome that I recall was that as a result of that, they completely banned smoking on campus.
00:28:14.880 --> 00:28:19.200
And everybody knew that it had it was related to that.
00:28:19.200 --> 00:28:26.559
So I I have to believe that part of the punishment was we're just gonna ban smoking across campus.
00:28:26.559 --> 00:28:35.279
And now everybody's gonna know that you mess this up for all the good people that were just smoking outside and having a cigarette out in the wild.
00:28:35.279 --> 00:28:36.480
No, you ruined it.
00:28:36.480 --> 00:28:40.319
You set a room on fire, and now we're gonna name this policy after you.
00:28:40.720 --> 00:28:44.319
But my question is, did it make her stop smoking?
00:28:44.319 --> 00:28:48.160
There was already a rule that you couldn't smoke where she was smoking.
00:28:48.160 --> 00:28:51.519
Why did they think that would stop the smoking?
00:28:52.000 --> 00:28:53.039
I don't know.
00:28:53.039 --> 00:28:53.920
Coward.
00:28:53.920 --> 00:29:02.079
But again, that was a that was a college campus where we did have a lot of adult learners, and most of them were graduate students.
00:29:02.079 --> 00:29:05.279
And I do think 99% of them probably follow the rules.
00:29:05.279 --> 00:29:08.720
But, you know, 1% of them burned their room down with a cigarette.
00:29:08.720 --> 00:29:09.839
So there you go.
00:29:10.240 --> 00:29:24.640
This feels like many diversification strategies that colleges have employed where they see there could be a money grab, like, oh, older people, all right, cha-ching.
00:29:24.640 --> 00:29:31.359
Which could I'm like, I already my wheels are turned like revenue, like, okay, we have empty residence hall rooms.
00:29:31.359 --> 00:29:34.079
Maybe we could rent them for two nights.
00:29:34.079 --> 00:29:39.039
Like if you have to come to campus for one of those classes, you're talking about like 6 to 9 p.m.
00:29:39.039 --> 00:29:52.960
or 6 to 10 p.m., maybe you could pay $30 and sleep in Downe Hall and uh, you know, and the college has 40 bucks to now that it didn't have before.
00:29:52.960 --> 00:30:00.880
But always when those strategies happen, you have to ask, like, are we ready to help these students be successful?
00:30:00.880 --> 00:30:16.079
Because so oftentimes it's not, it's just like, check, all right, we just got 30% bigger enrollment, and yet students are really angry and don't feel like they belong, and they are not gonna donate when they're alumni.
00:30:16.319 --> 00:30:22.480
Yeah, I I worked for a school that used to send out these very diverse housing brochures.
00:30:22.480 --> 00:30:26.559
Our campus was not as diverse as what we were advertising.
00:30:26.559 --> 00:30:31.519
So students would show up and look around and say, I don't see anybody that looks like me.
00:30:31.519 --> 00:30:41.119
I also do not believe that we were culturally ready to have students on campus that were different from the people that work there, unfortunately.
00:30:41.119 --> 00:30:49.839
It felt like a bait and switch to me that we were trying to convince students through a catalog that something existed that that did not exist.
00:30:49.839 --> 00:30:50.640
So yeah.
00:30:50.960 --> 00:31:06.240
But imagine if you were like, I think that Chronicle would come or Inside Higher Ed would come and do like, look at this campus doing workshops on how to cross-generational communication stuff and how do you be an authority when you're younger?
00:31:06.240 --> 00:31:14.079
And uh like there's so so many ways that you could get more and more and more attention in a positive way for your institution.
00:31:14.480 --> 00:31:27.599
When I read the article that you sent, my immediate thought was this is an attempt by four-year colleges and institutions to grab at a student population that community colleges have served for many decades.
00:31:27.599 --> 00:31:34.559
I think it's always been the bread and butter of community colleges to educate and train adult learners.
00:31:34.559 --> 00:31:36.400
We're embedded in the community.
00:31:36.400 --> 00:31:44.480
But like every school around the country right now, we are all trying to attract a smaller demographic of traditional age students.
00:31:44.480 --> 00:31:49.680
So that faculty member at University of Kansas who had a brilliant idea, guess what?
00:31:49.680 --> 00:31:53.519
It's a brilliant idea that's existed for decades on community college campuses.
00:31:53.519 --> 00:32:04.160
You you are just now having to engage in different enrollment tactics than you did because you are losing money and you're losing endowments, and it's a problem.
00:32:04.160 --> 00:32:22.160
So I I guess my uh my advice is for colleges and universities that have these large endowments, figure out how to attract adult learners in a way that isn't disenfranchising the community colleges that have been working with you for the past several decades as a pipeline.
00:32:22.480 --> 00:32:25.920
I needed to hear that because I do have my little ch-ching going.
00:32:26.400 --> 00:32:27.599
It's a valid point though.
00:32:27.599 --> 00:32:34.000
But there are, when you're a residential campus, there are so many other res revenue streams that you could be tapping into.
00:32:34.000 --> 00:32:41.279
You've got dorms, you've got tons of opportunities to monetize things in a residential setting if you want.
00:32:41.279 --> 00:32:46.799
You can invite franchises on campus that have profit sharing models.
00:32:46.799 --> 00:32:49.839
You can have mixed-use buildings on campus.
00:32:49.839 --> 00:32:52.559
You probably have endowments that you can tap into.
00:32:52.559 --> 00:32:55.519
These are all things that most community colleges don't have.
00:32:55.519 --> 00:33:01.920
So it is unfortunately all about money at the end of the day, but sometimes it's got to be about making choices.
00:33:01.920 --> 00:33:06.160
So are all of your programs at your four-year institution viable?
00:33:06.160 --> 00:33:12.400
Or are you propping up a program with five faculty and you have five students in your program?
00:33:12.400 --> 00:33:17.039
Okay, well, maybe that's a financial opportunity that you can look at.
00:33:17.039 --> 00:33:17.440
Yeah.
00:33:17.440 --> 00:33:19.440
I'll get off my soapbox.
00:33:19.440 --> 00:33:23.359
And I love competency-based education.
00:33:23.359 --> 00:33:27.839
I've been a strong advocate advocate of it for many years, especially.
00:33:27.839 --> 00:33:33.440
You know, we had at the last school I worked at a phenomenal simulation lab in healthcare.
00:33:33.440 --> 00:33:40.960
Being able to demonstrate that you know how to do something in my mind is far better than demonstrating that you have an academic knowledge of it.
00:33:40.960 --> 00:33:44.640
I don't care how good you are at explaining how to draw blood.
00:33:44.640 --> 00:33:49.200
If you stick a needle in my arm at CVS, I don't want to feel it.
00:33:49.200 --> 00:34:02.079
I want the person who can show that they have done it, you know, a hundred times, that they can demonstrate the skill and move on with their life instead of, you know, sitting through college classes on learning how to do something they already know.
00:34:02.079 --> 00:34:02.559
So yeah.
00:34:02.880 --> 00:34:03.200
Yeah.
00:34:03.200 --> 00:34:08.400
Let's shut to this down a little early because we got our we got our traders to get in planned.
00:34:08.719 --> 00:34:09.920
Gotta get our costumes on.
00:34:10.079 --> 00:34:10.559
Mm-hmm.
00:34:10.559 --> 00:34:13.519
Do you have one do you have your costume prepared?
00:34:14.159 --> 00:34:22.000
It's not fully prepared, but I think it will be um referential to an Alan an Alan Cummings situation.
00:34:22.000 --> 00:34:24.800
At least from like the waist up, you know.
00:34:25.199 --> 00:34:25.920
Love it.
00:34:25.920 --> 00:34:27.360
All right.
00:34:27.360 --> 00:34:29.840
I will see you in a few nights.
00:34:29.840 --> 00:34:34.320
And for all of you out there, we still have room for trader observers.
00:34:34.320 --> 00:34:37.760
And we'll put the link in our podcast notes below.
00:34:37.760 --> 00:34:40.639
And uh, we'll see you Wednesday night.
00:34:40.639 --> 00:34:41.519
Bye, Kurt.
00:34:41.519 --> 00:34:42.320
Bye.
00:34:42.320 --> 00:34:47.039
Ms.
00:34:47.039 --> 00:34:51.039
Behavior is written and produced by Colette Shaw and Kurt Doan.
00:34:51.039 --> 00:34:57.280
Theme music was written and performed by Kevin McLeod from Incompotech.com.
00:34:57.280 --> 00:34:58.800
You can contact Ms.
00:34:58.800 --> 00:35:00.000
Behavior at Ms.
00:35:00.000 --> 00:35:02.800
BehaviorCollege at gmail.com.
00:35:02.800 --> 00:35:06.800
That's MSBhavior College at gmail.com.
