Ep#5: Are middle managers actually finished? Plus: personal software, Ideogram & Midjourney goes medical

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Tom: hello, welcome back
to the Near Future Podcast.
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we're Tom and Jonny, and, we're
here bringing you on the journey
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of our explorations, learnings,
what we're building with AI, and
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sharing where we've got to so far.
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today is extremely hot and
sunny in London and Manchester,
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where we both join you from.
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you can see, if you're
watching this on YouTube, Jonny
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sunglasses for the occasion.
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I'm not wearing sunglasses, but, but I…
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Maybe I have better shade in,
the space I'm working from today.
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so thank you so much for coming back,
especially to all the listeners who've
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been, tuning in since the first episode.
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There must be at least two
of you or three of you.
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enough, in fact, to demand that we
create a, dedicated email address,
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which is now podcast@nearfuture.works
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Jonny: Yes.
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Email us your content
ideas, your complaints.
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there is an ombudsman.
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and, any feedback.
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Honestly, we're just getting started.
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We're trying to work out what this
format is and what's most interesting.
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We do have some guests coming up.
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So, far Tom and I have been doing this
on our own, and love you man, but,
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let's get some fresh faces on here
and bring some tension, onto the pod.
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Tom: Absolutely.
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Yeah.
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slash just, fresh perspectives,
exciting new things.
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excited for that.
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E-emailed, messaged, messaging a few
people, a few special guests to come and,
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join us for the conversation, and we have,
I think, three or four on the horizon.
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Jonny: Yeah
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Tom: to introduce, our huge,
massive global audience
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to, these fantastic people.
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Jonny: But there'll be
plenty with just us as well.
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We're not--
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Tom: yes.
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Jonny: have guests every week.
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that's too much admin
for any of us, I think.
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Tom: I, will segue us into
this next section, which is
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gonna be about, your, trip.
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You went on a trip late last week, Jonny.
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You just got back, and, were
telling me about something cool
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that happened with a Vibe Coded app.
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So
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Jonny: Yes.
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Yeah,
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Tom: us
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Jonny: yeah, I've, I have, been
out of the world of AI and design
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effectively since our last recording.
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I think we recorded last Wednesday, and
then I went on a golf trip on Thursday
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morning and came back on Sunday.
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We- it's now Tuesday, so I had one day o-
of desperately trying to recover yesterday
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from three rounds of golf in 35-degree
heat in Mallorca and three big nights out.
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so I go on this trip every year.
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it's 16 of us, and we
play Ryder Cup rules.
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That won't mean much to a, lot of people,
but, it's basically a team format where
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we all, have t- two teams of eight, and
we play the same teams every year, and
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we dress up in red, and blue, and, it's
a kind of classic boys need competition
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in order to make a holiday work.
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And, we're now into our 16th
year, so there's lots of lore and,
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memories of big, wins and putts to
win it and all that kind of stuff.
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but one of my friends, Chris, has been
keeping track of all of the stats across
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all 16 tours in a spreadsheet, and he
started doing it in year one or very
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s- close to the start of the tour.
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And through, I think, 46 different
players, in our rotating, list of golfers
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and across 16 years, so that's three
rounds of golf a year, a lot of rounds of
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golf, he has, got this sort of wealth of
data And so every year we have a bit of
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a data roundup and, how did people play
off their handicaps, and are the teams
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balanced, and all of that kind of thing.
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and we use on the course this
app called VPar, which has
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been around since we started.
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It's a little bit old and
rubbish, and very complex to use.
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And this year, Chris, who is not a,
designer or an engineer or, anything
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of the sort, thought, "I'm gonna use
AI to build my own one of these, and
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it's gonna be simple, and it's gonna
be just for us," a personal one for
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our, tour, which we call the Strider
Cup, named after Tinchy Strider.
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dates the tour somewhat.
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Yeah.
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Tom: Great reference.
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Jonny: so the, Strider Cup app,
came to life on Lovable, and Chris
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hadn't heard of Lovable before.
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He Googled it and found it
and started building, and it
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was an unbelievable success.
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this-- I think it was just the perfect
example of this sort of personal
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software or small-scale software
that you could never have dreamed
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of building, or you wouldn't have
paid a software developer to, to
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build something for a 16-person tour.
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for a long time, I actually
owned stridercup.com
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but didn't do anything with it really.
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so finally this app has appeared, and
it has, it allowed us to track each
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other's score live on the, course.
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It provided us with stats and, even
he built betting odds into the app, so
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that we could live bet, on each other.
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and, everyone was so excited about it
that then I took Chris to one side.
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I couldn't help myself.
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I took Chris to one side, and
I was like, "That could be…
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This could be a thing, If you wanna…"
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he works in golf at the moment.
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he works for the DP World Tour.
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and I was like, "I feel like if you built
this a little bit more, then there'd
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be an opportunity for other groups like
us to use it and maybe pay you for it."
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But it was-- I found it very, inspiring.
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It was a genuinely good bit of software
that he built by asking natural language
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questions, Rather than we need a
database, he would ask something like,
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"We need it so that people can see
each other's scores live and, up-update
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each other's scores or update their
own scores so other people can see it."
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And then it-- Lovable would
know what he meant by that and
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build something appropriate.
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so I just, I loved seeing that because I
think it was about 18 months ago, a year,
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18 months ago that we started playing
with Lovable, and it really was the first
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tool of its kind, I think, that broke out.
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Maybe that and Replit really broke
out as like now normal people can
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actually build software that is
meaningful to themselves and to
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others, and is the perfect use case.
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I-- people have built big businesses
on Lovable, but I think the perfect use
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case is this, small thing that, you can
have super high context over what you
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need from it, and you just build it for
yourself, and then all your mates use
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it, and you can put your in-jokes in it.
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Like we-- the, app was sponsored by Bo
Deans for historical reasons, and, had
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a Rolex clock in it and stuff like that.
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So there's, you can put gags in your
software that only are meaningful to
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16 people, and justify it entirely.
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So yeah, it's, a, good reminder
because I haven't really opened
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Lovable for a year probably, that
these, bits of software are really so
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easy for people to just get started.
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it's made me think I should dig back in.
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I think I've got-- still got a
ton of credit to use, maybe I
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should, dig back into Lovable.
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But yeah, so it's-- that, that was
really my only, the only th-thing I
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could think of to bring to the pod in
terms of experience with AI this week.
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Tom: That sounds, that sounds good.
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That sounds great.
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Have you, you tempted to try and
use some, prompt injection, dark
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magic to hack your score so you
were doing better in this app?
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Or were you ch- keeping
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Jonny: w- it, th- I think one, one of
the most interest-- Yeah, it, That's
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a really good question because I
think s- trust was implicit in, this.
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There's, no auth, anyone can go
on this, app, which is why I'm- I
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won't link to it in the show notes.
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and change each other's scores, but,
you don't because you're all friends.
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So there were various technical
things that Chris didn't have
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to worry about, tracking, events
and working out who did what.
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who changed the score?
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Was it actually the person that was
playing the match, or was it someone else
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who was messing around with the format?
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and, yeah, so to, to, productionize
it, you probably need to do a little
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bit more, but just, beautiful.
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And it, because you didn't have to log in,
everyone was like, "It's so much easier
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than anything else we've ever used."
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yeah.
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W- we've known each other for long
enough that you, wouldn't last long
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if you started trying to cheat.
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Tom: Yeah, definitely.
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I guess that's no different
from a spreadsheet if you're
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giving everyone access
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to a spreadsheet and they're
trusted to update it with,
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Very cool.
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big question though for you, Jonny.
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Have, has it led you to thinking about
how AI can improve your golf game?
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I've n- I know nothing about golf.
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I've barely ever played it, so I don't
know how much, how, AI could, feed in,
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but, has it left you with any ideas
of how to improve your score for next
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time using AI to help in some way?
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Jonny: one thing I think I probably
did tell you ahead of this is
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I did not play well this year,
But I'm not sure AI can help me.
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Unfortunately, I think it's just
completely reconstructing my swing
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from the ground up, and spending
more time playing golf than I do.
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that said, I did-- I was captain
this year, so I had to make
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decisions about who goes out first
and how to structure the team.
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And I did throw up a little,
mini website with some AI in it
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to help me decide the pairings.
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But,
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but for me personally, no,
I'm, a lost cause, I'm afraid.
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I won't be troubling the
PGA Tour anytime soon.
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Tom: Okay.
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Okay.
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That's, it's good to know there
are, there's some limits to where
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AI can help and where it can't.
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so maybe when robots are part of
the picture, maybe it'll become
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more complicated for the, golf
team of 2050 that's gonna happen.
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okay.
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Let's, let- let's move on.
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Let's move on.
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I think we were, going
to talk next about…
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there's a couple of topics
we were, thinking of sharing,
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on the pod today.
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how about I go next and talk
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Jonny: Yeah, I think I, I'm intrigued.
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you shared a link that I haven't
clicked on, and I think it's gonna
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be pretty relevant to us and our
audience, especially given your
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last role and, yeah, I'll hand
over to you, Tom, to introduce it.
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But yeah, we're, going a little
bit more serious than golf now.
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Tom: so the headline of this, article
was, Middle Managers in the Firing Line.
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and so I'm just-- I have it up in front
of me here, and it says, "CEOs at some
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of the world's biggest companies are
rethinking their org charts, pivoting
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away from middle management toward
the idea of an intelligence layer."
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And some other senior-sounding
person says middle managers
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probably shouldn't exist anymore.
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I, the reason I thought it would be
worth, sharing today is I think this
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has been, a narrative that's been
around the last year, two years,
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even before AI really took hold.
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I think it was the sort of post-ZERP era
of, the macroeconomic climate where it
00:11:30.824 --> 00:11:37.834
was harder to raise money and there was
more, talent around and, fewer headcounts
00:11:38.074 --> 00:11:39.814
than previous or there were before.
00:11:40.804 --> 00:11:44.294
and so I think it's-- I think starting
at that point, there was a conversation
00:11:44.314 --> 00:11:48.714
around do we really need people managers
in the same way or middle managers as this
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article talks about, and that seems
to be heating up, with this latest
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piece that I saw recently on LinkedIn.
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but I wanted to bring it up because
I think there's a few things
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here that, I've been definitely
thinking about a lot, recently.
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And you mentioned my last role, Jonny,
and for any, new listener who has zero
00:12:10.394 --> 00:12:13.904
context of who I am, previous role,
full-time role before this was as
00:12:13.904 --> 00:12:15.564
director of product design at Monzo.
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I was there for five years, and a big
part of my role was, hiring product
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designers, managing product designers and
managing managers of product designers.
00:12:27.524 --> 00:12:31.664
so definitely got to see firsthand,
how this shift was at least starting
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to take shape, And I think it's just
a-- it's definitely a moment to…
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there's a lot of thoughts that this
has led me to, and Jonny, feel free
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to ask me follow-up questions in, this
00:12:43.074 --> 00:12:43.394
area.
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Jonny: Yeah, Oh, yeah, I have some.
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Tom: th- But, but, a couple things
just to anchor the conversation
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that I, I'm thinking about.
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The first is, shift toward
the intelligence layer
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and what that, that means.
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Jack Dorsey and, his, Cash App and
various other companies he's connected
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to, have made some quite radical changes
in their organizational structures and
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moving much more toward player-coach
model managers who are mixing IC
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work with management contributions.
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that's one example of this.
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there are various other flavors of
trying to the-- or automate some
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of the information coordination
and gathering across teams
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and, positioning, managers in the
traditional sense to focus more on sort
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of strategic impact or getting closer to
00:13:37.604 --> 00:13:39.134
individual contributor work itself.
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I think, yeah, so Depending on who is
listening to this, I think there is
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the sort of version of this that there
is the element of, truth to, you are
00:13:52.198 --> 00:13:55.268
in a middle manager role right now, I
think that's a difficult place to be.
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difficult in the sense that you
have pressure coming on you like
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most roles that are somewhat
connected to AI right now.
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This is true of
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Jonny: Yeah
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Tom: it's true of everyone in,
working in these companies.
00:14:08.318 --> 00:14:13.228
But I think people managers are, in
my experience, absorb a lot of the
00:14:13.238 --> 00:14:18.068
emotional labor of how, the anxiety
and fear that surrounds teams, and I
00:14:18.108 --> 00:14:24.438
think a lot of that falls on, leaders
and managers to, set clarity and
00:14:24.438 --> 00:14:26.068
direction in a time where it's…
00:14:26.108 --> 00:14:27.948
there's a lot of uncertainty, and that's a
00:14:28.018 --> 00:14:29.138
really difficult place to be.
00:14:29.488 --> 00:14:32.998
I think combined with that, you're
going from managing six people to n-
00:14:32.998 --> 00:14:39.608
now managing people or 18 people or
even more, which I think the traditional
00:14:39.718 --> 00:14:44.318
systems and structures just aren't really
set up to scale very easily to that.
00:14:44.728 --> 00:14:44.808
it
00:14:44.808 --> 00:14:47.308
really requires re- redesigning
from the ground up, what does that
00:14:47.308 --> 00:14:50.658
even look like in this new era,
be able to operate effectively.
00:14:51.018 --> 00:14:56.868
But I think most fundamentally, it
is what is the, outcome, are the
00:14:56.868 --> 00:15:05.418
outcomes that you're prioritizing
as a manager to, justify validate
00:15:05.418 --> 00:15:06.788
the areas that you're focusing on.
00:15:06.788 --> 00:15:08.598
And I think that is something
that a lot of companies are
00:15:08.598 --> 00:15:10.938
still figuring out to an extent.
00:15:10.958 --> 00:15:15.748
But the old rule book of primarily
being about hiring and growing teams,
00:15:15.748 --> 00:15:19.258
developing, getting more from individuals
and teams and helping coordinate
00:15:19.378 --> 00:15:23.628
them, I think is getting thinner
and thinner as the sole priority.
00:15:24.177 --> 00:15:24.537
Jonny: Yeah
00:15:24.628 --> 00:15:28.480
Tom: I think it's really about
how do you Scale your impact
00:15:28.560 --> 00:15:30.460
and, drive that through others.
00:15:30.810 --> 00:15:34.200
But the one tactical thing I wanna add
before jumping to any questions you
00:15:34.200 --> 00:15:35.340
might have, Jonny, or thoughts you…
00:15:35.540 --> 00:15:41.040
i'm curious to hear your thoughts
too, is around, this, this tool that
00:15:41.040 --> 00:15:45.020
I think I would find very useful
if I was, in this position right
00:15:45.020 --> 00:15:48.980
now and I was a manager of people
anywhere, in any company at the moment.
00:15:49.750 --> 00:15:53.480
it's something that I learnt about during
my time at Monzo, but I, don't know how
00:15:53.480 --> 00:15:54.890
long it's been established beyond this.
00:15:55.730 --> 00:15:57.980
the concept of servi-
manager service levels.
00:15:58.330 --> 00:16:01.630
I forget the original engineering
leader who introduced this at Monzo,
00:16:01.630 --> 00:16:07.390
but the basic concept is, you have this
sort of different degrees, of what you
00:16:07.390 --> 00:16:11.550
can expect from your manager during
different times, at work, and there
00:16:11.550 --> 00:16:14.520
is the, everything is good, every…
00:16:14.910 --> 00:16:18.040
This, the manager has lots of
capacity and attention, and this is
00:16:18.070 --> 00:16:20.330
what you can expect a direct report.
00:16:20.750 --> 00:16:24.370
And then on the other end of the
spectrum, there is, is broken.
00:16:24.370 --> 00:16:25.850
We're hiring a million people.
00:16:26.300 --> 00:16:29.280
everyone's on and sabbatical and,
00:16:31.310 --> 00:16:33.580
p- that's, that- that's what the
expectations look like when, that
00:16:33.580 --> 00:16:35.030
is the sort of picture of, things.
00:16:35.569 --> 00:16:35.919
Jonny: Yeah
00:16:36.170 --> 00:16:39.390
Tom: and I really love the, not
necessarily those examples, but the idea
00:16:39.390 --> 00:16:45.050
of having this spectrum of, like, where,
as a manager, where do you w- how do you
00:16:45.820 --> 00:16:49.960
expectations for your team, on, in the
good times and in the difficult times?
00:16:50.960 --> 00:16:56.980
I think it, it introduces this idea that
are all construct, constructs, artificial
00:16:56.980 --> 00:17:01.350
constructs of how we allocate and set
expectations with the teams we, work with
00:17:01.350 --> 00:17:03.380
and the people we're responsible for.
00:17:04.450 --> 00:17:08.610
but I think giving managers, and teams
a level of control over defining what
00:17:08.630 --> 00:17:14.490
that should look like and then helping
people understand, what that range can
00:17:14.490 --> 00:17:19.780
feel like, I think that expectation
aspect of being a manager much more
00:17:19.780 --> 00:17:24.720
of an exercise in enabling managers
to, to pick and choose what they
00:17:24.720 --> 00:17:26.570
think is most impactful to the team.
00:17:27.270 --> 00:17:30.020
hopefully that involves actually
speaking to the team too and really
00:17:30.353 --> 00:17:30.733
Jonny: Yeah
00:17:30.750 --> 00:17:32.700
Tom: needs are and how they can be helped.
00:17:34.640 --> 00:17:37.310
but I just wanted to throw that out
there as anyone who is struggling
00:17:37.310 --> 00:17:41.040
to navigate this transition as
a manager, I think you have…
00:17:41.070 --> 00:17:41.870
You're in a lot more…
00:17:42.840 --> 00:17:47.850
you have more, control over the managing
expectations with those you manage
00:17:47.900 --> 00:17:52.580
and the rest of the leadership team
that you work with, to help reasonable
00:17:52.580 --> 00:17:56.340
expectations that position you to
actually do a good job and lead to good
00:17:56.340 --> 00:17:57.850
outcomes for your company, not just
00:17:57.850 --> 00:18:03.140
feel like you have to do with more with
less, which is, focusing a bit too much on
00:18:03.140 --> 00:18:07.840
the, what is being taken away rather than
what you're being given and how that can
00:18:07.840 --> 00:18:10.750
actually, unlock these new possibilities.
00:18:11.185 --> 00:18:11.515
Jonny: Yeah.
00:18:11.580 --> 00:18:12.660
Tom: Jonny, I've talked a lot.
00:18:12.980 --> 00:18:13.340
What, are your
00:18:13.385 --> 00:18:13.525
Jonny: no.
00:18:13.955 --> 00:18:17.745
I suppose I've got one question
for you first, and then I
00:18:17.745 --> 00:18:18.435
have a couple of thoughts.
00:18:18.435 --> 00:18:23.565
But given all of that, and given
the sort of just the headline of
00:18:23.975 --> 00:18:27.795
we don't need managers anymore,
what's your take on that?
00:18:28.865 --> 00:18:35.275
what's your gut on-- it's you have been
a manager, you have managed managers.
00:18:36.005 --> 00:18:37.445
Do you think that is true?
00:18:37.865 --> 00:18:45.955
Or is that like a sort of reactive,
like post-Zurp, falsehood that
00:18:45.965 --> 00:18:49.825
we will stumble back out of and
everything will just be the struct-
00:18:49.835 --> 00:18:51.305
the same structure will remain?
00:18:51.625 --> 00:18:53.105
is Jack Dorsey correct, basically?
00:18:54.626 --> 00:18:57.336
Tom: I don't think he's,
wildly off actually.
00:18:58.396 --> 00:19:04.056
I, think of this less in titles and
more in what are the outcomes that are
00:19:04.096 --> 00:19:08.486
necessary for a team of people in a
company, and I think teams need direction.
00:19:08.666 --> 00:19:10.686
They need clarity.
00:19:10.846 --> 00:19:13.366
They need psychological safety.
00:19:13.496 --> 00:19:14.026
They need,
00:19:16.406 --> 00:19:18.166
around what a company
is trying to achieve.
00:19:19.006 --> 00:19:22.846
I think all these things traditionally
fell on a manager to help shape and guide.
00:19:24.346 --> 00:19:34.712
I don't necessarily think as a standalone
role is the most thing to preserve
00:19:34.712 --> 00:19:36.342
in the future we're moving toward.
00:19:37.412 --> 00:19:40.632
but I think making sure that there
is-- there are those elements
00:19:40.642 --> 00:19:44.552
in some kind of leadership
capacity in a team is important.
00:19:45.232 --> 00:19:51.212
I suspect what we'll see happening is
teams will continue to have a head of
00:19:51.212 --> 00:19:58.052
design or a sort of leadership function,
because I think that person is most or
00:19:58.062 --> 00:20:04.132
best positioned to focus on the direction
and the way that design's impact can
00:20:04.132 --> 00:20:06.382
ladder up to company-wide outcomes.
00:20:07.282 --> 00:20:11.942
But beyond that individual person,
I think it might vary based on how a
00:20:11.972 --> 00:20:16.092
company is uniquely operating itself
and how it coordinates across different
00:20:16.092 --> 00:20:21.072
functions, and whether that takes a
slightly more design operations role or
00:20:21.072 --> 00:20:26.912
people management roles or, even a more
sort of chief of staff-shaped support for
00:20:26.912 --> 00:20:29.462
that head of function, I think varies.
00:20:29.932 --> 00:20:31.652
I could definitely see a world
as well where there's more…
00:20:32.812 --> 00:20:38.772
the player coach, concept, which on paper
sounds like, oh, you can be a manager
00:20:38.792 --> 00:20:40.762
and an IC, get your cake and eat it.
00:20:40.822 --> 00:20:41.312
Or I think
00:20:41.367 --> 00:20:41.857
Jonny: Yeah.
00:20:41.872 --> 00:20:43.022
Tom: that and think, I can just get,
00:20:45.592 --> 00:20:47.032
person to do the job of two people.
00:20:47.042 --> 00:20:47.392
Great."
00:20:48.382 --> 00:20:52.262
I think in reality, from my experience
when I've seen that, that setup, I
00:20:52.282 --> 00:20:58.442
think it feels like 80% of the work
is as an individual contributor with
00:20:58.622 --> 00:21:03.342
ment- with mentorship and some light
accountability around maybe some sort of
00:21:03.342 --> 00:21:09.472
light performance performance management
and light performance review stuff.
00:21:10.322 --> 00:21:14.432
but which I think works potentially
quite well if the s- the team
00:21:14.432 --> 00:21:18.142
skews very senior everyone is
high-functioning, highly capable, highly
00:21:18.142 --> 00:21:19.672
aligned with what the company needs.
00:21:20.682 --> 00:21:22.922
that is not true of every single company.
00:21:23.652 --> 00:21:28.612
so I think there's a risk that
the player coach who stumbles
00:21:28.642 --> 00:21:29.892
into a more challenging,
00:21:32.122 --> 00:21:35.832
more challenging management challenges
might struggle in that kind of
00:21:36.012 --> 00:21:40.042
setting, unless they have a background
and experience to, to dial up.
00:21:41.112 --> 00:21:47.012
but yeah, an interesting quirk
of the sort of player coach era.
00:21:47.772 --> 00:21:48.692
Jonny: I, suppose I just…
00:21:50.552 --> 00:21:55.662
I think I haven't read this, article,
but I read a month or two ago, yeah,
00:21:55.662 --> 00:22:00.392
Jack Dorsey's, a bit of Jack Dorsey's
very long piece about management
00:22:00.402 --> 00:22:03.822
generally, and I don't buy it.
00:22:03.972 --> 00:22:08.842
First of all, I think that, the
market doesn't owe anyone anything.
00:22:08.842 --> 00:22:14.042
So if anyone is a manager right now
and, really likes, aspects of it
00:22:14.442 --> 00:22:18.742
that may become less important over
time, which will-- I think is true,
00:22:19.792 --> 00:22:21.482
then that is, that's gonna be tough.
00:22:22.362 --> 00:22:25.112
But I think I don't buy…
00:22:25.772 --> 00:22:30.992
I think, manager to report ratios
is a function of how many people
00:22:30.992 --> 00:22:32.972
you have on, your team primarily.
00:22:33.322 --> 00:22:38.342
if you think about the pastoral role of
a manager, and if you think about the,
00:22:39.782 --> 00:22:45.672
taste bar setter role, and if you think
about managing up and across, all of
00:22:45.672 --> 00:22:50.002
that kind of thing, actually a lot of
those ratios are set by the, world around
00:22:50.802 --> 00:22:53.942
the person rather than anything else.
00:22:54.812 --> 00:22:59.672
And I do think, like a tastemaker,
maybe a design team of 100 could just
00:22:59.672 --> 00:23:03.452
have one tastemaker who sits in these
great big crits and, and actually,
00:23:03.802 --> 00:23:08.212
having one person deciding what good
looks like is more efficient as long
00:23:08.212 --> 00:23:09.662
as they can get round all the work.
00:23:09.992 --> 00:23:16.192
So that separates off from-- That becomes
more like a super senior IC or something,
00:23:16.482 --> 00:23:18.082
and then you have managers that are
00:23:20.922 --> 00:23:27.112
communicating expectations up and
across and, some of that last part
00:23:27.112 --> 00:23:29.382
feels like it might be less necessary.
00:23:29.732 --> 00:23:33.012
But at the same time, everyone's
team is about to go through this mad
00:23:33.012 --> 00:23:37.012
change where they do need, as you
say, more psychological safety and a
00:23:37.012 --> 00:23:43.542
little bit more support possibly than
they did over the last few years, or
00:23:43.542 --> 00:23:44.652
a different kind of support anyway.
00:23:44.652 --> 00:23:51.192
So I think that it would take a particular
type of culture to make what he describes
00:23:51.192 --> 00:23:56.842
work, and maybe, Block, which is Jack
Dorsey's company is, that culture.
00:23:57.272 --> 00:23:59.452
But I'd be surprised if that's
really broadly applicable.
00:23:59.462 --> 00:24:03.672
But, may- maybe I'm wrong, but from
my time as a manager, which admittedly
00:24:03.672 --> 00:24:07.912
was-- or a design manager, which was
a while ago, but then a manager of a
00:24:08.552 --> 00:24:10.472
whole small organization, admittedly.
00:24:13.302 --> 00:24:17.192
I don't think we can just, automate
away how we communicate with each
00:24:17.192 --> 00:24:19.462
other and how we transmit information.
00:24:19.602 --> 00:24:22.732
I do think your whole job being
sitting in meetings all day has
00:24:22.732 --> 00:24:26.992
always been ridiculous, and it's only
a function of the ZIRP era that it
00:24:26.992 --> 00:24:28.582
was ever allowed in the first place.
00:24:29.872 --> 00:24:34.662
but people removing management layers
because of AI, I think I don't buy.
00:24:35.442 --> 00:24:38.282
And as you say, the post-ZIRP was
where the actual change happened,
00:24:38.282 --> 00:24:42.042
where people went, "Yeah, you
can't just exist here, so everyone
00:24:42.492 --> 00:24:43.562
feels a little bit more supported.
00:24:43.562 --> 00:24:44.082
You need to show ROI."
00:24:45.122 --> 00:24:49.472
and I think a lot of this change now
is look at how fast the ICs are moving.
00:24:49.472 --> 00:24:53.302
Look how many lines of code and
how many PRs the engineers are,
00:24:54.822 --> 00:24:58.462
merging, so therefore everyone else
should be as efficient as them.
00:24:58.462 --> 00:25:01.582
But actually, other parts of the business
don't move as fast as that, and things
00:25:01.582 --> 00:25:05.802
that involve humans who are messy and
communicating in rooms with people are,
00:25:05.802 --> 00:25:08.612
like, not the same thing as writing code.
00:25:10.212 --> 00:25:11.592
seems like a really obvious thing to say.
00:25:14.062 --> 00:25:17.862
I think there might be a little
bit of a rejection of that concept
00:25:17.942 --> 00:25:21.912
more broadly, and most companies
will keep more managers on.
00:25:22.772 --> 00:25:25.362
Or at least if they're removing them now,
they might think, "Oh, it didn't work
00:25:25.562 --> 00:25:27.452
very well," and bring, some of them back.
00:25:27.882 --> 00:25:33.722
That said, I think every manager needs
to w- look at where they are adding value
00:25:33.722 --> 00:25:38.732
today and work out if that's the places
they're really focused on are what their
00:25:38.732 --> 00:25:42.082
organization needs in the future, and try
and predict the future a little bit here.
00:25:43.492 --> 00:25:48.452
'cause you don't wanna be-- What might
happen is managers are split into
00:25:48.462 --> 00:25:52.852
managers that drive real business value,
which might be, like, better products
00:25:52.872 --> 00:25:58.352
and higher quality design or whatever
it is the department they're in, versus
00:25:58.352 --> 00:26:00.142
those that swan around looking busy.
00:26:00.812 --> 00:26:06.282
And, if that really is you, swanning
around looking busy and making sure
00:26:06.282 --> 00:26:14.072
your team have, a really fun breakfast
every quarter, then that, that becomes
00:26:15.292 --> 00:26:19.162
less, value, in this world compared
to your peers, and then you might
00:26:20.392 --> 00:26:21.232
be in a little bit more trouble.
00:26:21.232 --> 00:26:22.912
But I don't know for sure.
00:26:23.062 --> 00:26:23.662
I don't know.
00:26:23.902 --> 00:26:24.192
But,
00:26:26.872 --> 00:26:27.922
it's an interesting time.
00:26:28.082 --> 00:26:31.432
I think that there's, this,
narrative which is like all
00:26:31.432 --> 00:26:35.702
managers need to start designing
again, and maybe some of them do.
00:26:35.712 --> 00:26:40.342
But they're, the ones, ironically,
that are probably sitting most
00:26:40.342 --> 00:26:45.162
comfortably in a management role
right now where they're not actually
00:26:45.162 --> 00:26:46.372
involved in the work very much
00:26:48.872 --> 00:26:50.792
Tom: Do you think they sh-
do you think they should?
00:26:50.852 --> 00:26:56.262
Do you think anyone who is in a purely
manager role right now should get hands-on
00:26:56.262 --> 00:26:58.362
and design things or build things?
00:26:59.484 --> 00:27:01.544
Jonny: I think to me that's
where it goes back to the market
00:27:01.544 --> 00:27:03.174
doesn't care what you enjoy.
00:27:03.794 --> 00:27:06.684
The market cares about what, is valuable.
00:27:07.774 --> 00:27:13.584
And you may be forced into being one
of the best managers or not being
00:27:13.584 --> 00:27:15.914
a manager anymore by that fact.
00:27:16.354 --> 00:27:19.344
And so if you're not a manager
anymore, you need to work out what
00:27:19.354 --> 00:27:23.784
you are, and that might be an IC
or it might be something different,
00:27:24.784 --> 00:27:26.334
like a potter or something.
00:27:28.204 --> 00:27:31.744
But, but I think-- I th-
and, that's not about design.
00:27:31.744 --> 00:27:36.234
That's just, that I think that
might be what th- this, technology
00:27:36.234 --> 00:27:40.594
does to whole industries and
all knowledge work ultimately.
00:27:42.082 --> 00:27:42.192
Tom: Yeah.
00:27:42.764 --> 00:27:43.064
Jonny: Yeah.
00:27:43.752 --> 00:27:43.992
Tom: yeah.
00:27:44.242 --> 00:27:45.862
I, I, that makes sense.
00:27:45.952 --> 00:27:49.812
And, I think to build on your point,
I think really understanding the
00:27:49.812 --> 00:27:57.012
mechanics of how the business you're
in makes money and, how your function
00:27:57.022 --> 00:28:03.922
ladders up into that, I think is to
have significant-- a significant bearing
00:28:03.942 --> 00:28:10.002
on the role that you play in your
team add value toward that top line.
00:28:10.702 --> 00:28:11.062
Jonny: Completely
00:28:12.152 --> 00:28:14.742
Tom: I think that will probably look
quite different based on the organization.
00:28:15.142 --> 00:28:21.022
I think-- So I think, yeah, given the
shape of your team and the role also
00:28:21.022 --> 00:28:25.552
design plays for your business, or,
product plays for your business, I
00:28:25.552 --> 00:28:31.532
think could have quite a big bearing on
the importance of or what, is uniquely
00:28:31.532 --> 00:28:37.162
important about design leadership within
that organization and how much, how much
00:28:37.162 --> 00:28:42.902
that is about taste versus vision versus
direction, which are all overlapping
00:28:42.902 --> 00:28:47.962
areas, but I think they vary quite a bit
based on what a company needs right now.
00:28:49.572 --> 00:28:55.872
thing to mention on this, I saw a post,
post by, Tom Mora, who's head of design
00:28:55.872 --> 00:29:00.572
operations at Fin, from earlier this
week, which didn't directly talk about any
00:29:00.572 --> 00:29:02.122
of this stuff that we're talking about.
00:29:02.862 --> 00:29:06.702
but there were some themes in what
he mentioned, I think do overlap.
00:29:06.982 --> 00:29:10.452
There was one that was around design
being uniquely positioned for the
00:29:10.452 --> 00:29:12.122
first and last mile, so like setting
00:29:12.122 --> 00:29:13.742
direction and deciding
what to work on and then,
00:29:15.852 --> 00:29:18.602
being the guardian of overall
quality of what ships.
00:29:19.482 --> 00:29:25.392
then another one that was around, into
AI and automation for communication
00:29:25.402 --> 00:29:29.042
alignment and, the information
layer of, how a team operates.
00:29:30.192 --> 00:29:35.202
I think those for me, definitely make
sense in a design operations capacity.
00:29:35.572 --> 00:29:42.392
I think are also areas that historically
have been more in in the realm of the
00:29:42.392 --> 00:29:43.932
people manager role within design.
00:29:44.492 --> 00:29:44.902
Jonny: Yeah
00:29:45.272 --> 00:29:48.802
Tom: think those roles have already always
had some overlap, but maybe that overlap
00:29:48.802 --> 00:29:55.072
is, increasing and almost abstracting away
what the overall design function needs in
00:29:55.072 --> 00:29:59.512
your company into, yeah, what are the sort
of operational aspects versus what are
00:29:59.512 --> 00:30:01.612
the taste and direction setting aspects
00:30:02.052 --> 00:30:04.172
versus what are the sort
of business impact aspects
00:30:04.652 --> 00:30:04.992
Jonny: Yeah
00:30:05.212 --> 00:30:09.622
Tom: fall out obviously as, oh, we
need five people managers, but we
00:30:09.622 --> 00:30:11.612
need someone who's really good at
operations, someone who's really
00:30:11.612 --> 00:30:13.432
good at taste, someone who's
really good at this thing.
00:30:14.812 --> 00:30:17.122
I, think that's a bit
disconnected from what those
00:30:17.122 --> 00:30:19.632
titles will be, but the functions
00:30:19.646 --> 00:30:20.096
Jonny: yeah.
00:30:20.482 --> 00:30:20.982
Tom: I think
00:30:20.996 --> 00:30:24.206
Jonny: Maybe the thing that needs
to, maybe the thing that needs to
00:30:24.206 --> 00:30:28.486
die or move on is actually just the
title and because it comes with all
00:30:28.486 --> 00:30:30.006
this baggage of what is expected
00:30:30.790 --> 00:30:31.080
Tom: Yeah,
00:30:31.316 --> 00:30:32.386
Jonny: historically.
00:30:32.946 --> 00:30:36.706
And in this new world, a lot of that
stuff may either be divided up across
00:30:36.706 --> 00:30:39.316
different people or across different
functions, and some of it can be done
00:30:39.316 --> 00:30:41.716
by ICs or be done by product managers.
00:30:43.576 --> 00:30:46.856
and so therefore, what is a design
manager anymore is probably not, might
00:30:46.856 --> 00:30:51.246
not be a thing, even though all of the
functions of a design manager exist.
00:30:51.866 --> 00:30:55.766
And so therefore, yes, you might
need fewer design managers, but all
00:30:55.766 --> 00:30:58.966
of the same capacity is required of
what the design managers used to do.
00:31:00.236 --> 00:31:02.616
Which then sounds a little bit more
like player coaches and other stuff.
00:31:02.976 --> 00:31:07.646
But, or you have these sort of guilds
of, I don't know, wizards and orcs,
00:31:07.966 --> 00:31:11.856
and wizards are really good at taste,
and orcs are really good at, once ones.
00:31:11.896 --> 00:31:13.976
I don't know.
00:31:13.996 --> 00:31:16.526
Tom: being good at one, one-to-ones,
that's probably not the most
00:31:17.866 --> 00:31:19.436
part of, this whole strategy.
00:31:21.016 --> 00:31:24.966
but, yeah, I also think there's
probably a, really exciting world
00:31:24.966 --> 00:31:27.276
of the AI-enabled manager who is,
00:31:29.896 --> 00:31:33.586
really using AI to scale a
lot of what they're doing in
00:31:33.586 --> 00:31:34.666
the space and actually has
00:31:34.802 --> 00:31:34.992
Jonny: Yeah.
00:31:35.036 --> 00:31:35.576
Tom: impact.
00:31:36.022 --> 00:31:36.332
Jonny: Yeah
00:31:37.036 --> 00:31:40.046
Tom: but the label for that is
perhaps a sec- secondary thing
00:31:40.046 --> 00:31:41.556
to, to explore or consider.
00:31:42.196 --> 00:31:46.836
won't even un- open the can of worms
around, cross-functional management
00:31:46.896 --> 00:31:51.426
and if, a design-- if, is, may-
maybe a design manager doesn't
00:31:51.426 --> 00:31:56.786
exist, but, a people manager or
people who ship things to customers
00:31:57.596 --> 00:31:59.466
something that sort of spans disciplines.
00:31:59.692 --> 00:32:00.512
Jonny: Yeah, interesting.
00:32:00.602 --> 00:32:01.102
Yeah.
00:32:01.306 --> 00:32:02.146
Tom: let's not go down that path.
00:32:02.206 --> 00:32:04.286
It'll have a whole other podcast episode.
00:32:04.286 --> 00:32:08.716
We're already a long way into this, but,
but really, yeah, fascinating, to think
00:32:08.726 --> 00:32:11.436
about this and the sort of implications.
00:32:11.436 --> 00:32:15.356
There was a whole other side of this
around like talent retention and how that
00:32:15.516 --> 00:32:18.446
has shifted the dynamic right now as well.
00:32:18.446 --> 00:32:18.716
But
00:32:18.896 --> 00:32:20.396
again, I don't wanna go
down that path either.
00:32:21.480 --> 00:32:23.260
Jonny: save it for next
week or another week
00:32:23.456 --> 00:32:25.666
Tom: Yeah, so these are just
teasers of what, what's to come.
00:32:26.886 --> 00:32:31.246
we did-- was another thing we
essentially wanted to talk about.
00:32:31.516 --> 00:32:32.446
do you think we have time, Jonny?
00:32:32.446 --> 00:32:33.656
Do you wanna talk about Ideogram?
00:32:34.964 --> 00:32:37.514
Jonny: let's, let's do
it as part of quick fire.
00:32:37.814 --> 00:32:38.204
So what--
00:32:38.860 --> 00:32:39.090
Tom: Okay
00:32:39.114 --> 00:32:40.804
Jonny: we have a new quick fire section.
00:32:40.844 --> 00:32:42.354
I don't know if we're calling it…
00:32:42.974 --> 00:32:45.194
we now are calling it quick
fire section outwardly.
00:32:45.894 --> 00:32:51.694
so welcome to the quick fire section, But
I can kick off with a cool tool that I
00:32:52.214 --> 00:32:56.334
first heard about on a podcast and then
have played around with a bit this week.
00:32:56.774 --> 00:32:59.144
It's called Ideogram, ideogram.ai.
00:32:59.374 --> 00:33:03.304
it's-- I think, one thing that
00:33:05.356 --> 00:33:08.546
these models, even the state-of-the-art,
frontier models really struggle
00:33:08.546 --> 00:33:10.736
with is design and taste.
00:33:11.366 --> 00:33:16.156
The models out of the box just don't
have-- or they have a taste, but because
00:33:16.166 --> 00:33:20.676
they are trained in specific opinionated
ways, the taste is always the same.
00:33:20.676 --> 00:33:25.036
So if you ask Anthropic or if you
a-ask Claude to design you a website
00:33:26.026 --> 00:33:29.446
and 1,000 other people do, all of
those websites will look the same.
00:33:29.446 --> 00:33:33.616
And we've seen that, first it was like
the blue-purple gradients, and then
00:33:33.626 --> 00:33:42.056
it was the greige sort of milk soup,
milk, toast, with italic, serif fonts.
00:33:42.056 --> 00:33:46.326
And, we see these like phases
where the new model is trained on
00:33:46.326 --> 00:33:49.176
a new set of data, and so therefore
that's what all design looks like.
00:33:50.706 --> 00:33:56.166
And I think a lot about this kind of
stuff and, how do you move away from that.
00:33:56.166 --> 00:34:00.286
And the harness, which is basically
all of the prompts and everything
00:34:00.296 --> 00:34:02.156
around the model can change that.
00:34:02.156 --> 00:34:04.856
You can tell the model to come up
with five variants that all look
00:34:04.856 --> 00:34:06.546
different, that kind of thing.
00:34:07.836 --> 00:34:12.746
but ultimately, ideally, you would
have a model that s- looks for and
00:34:12.746 --> 00:34:15.186
celebrates divergence over convergence.
00:34:15.196 --> 00:34:19.526
So it is forcing itself to
come up with routes even if
00:34:19.526 --> 00:34:20.446
some of the routes are wrong.
00:34:21.136 --> 00:34:24.416
And, there's some bad ideas and some
good ideas, but at least you've got
00:34:24.426 --> 00:34:29.686
some ideas, and you can make it look
different, with different prompts.
00:34:30.256 --> 00:34:35.366
Anyway, thinking about it, and
then, I hadn't heard of Ideogram,
00:34:35.396 --> 00:34:38.686
and last week I listened to,
their founder talk on a podcast.
00:34:38.936 --> 00:34:47.996
It's basically a s- a, a whole new model,
that is quite small in terms of, size.
00:34:47.996 --> 00:34:53.456
It's nine, nine billion, parameter
model, so way smaller than
00:34:53.706 --> 00:34:54.936
the, big state-of-the-art ones.
00:34:55.676 --> 00:35:01.846
but it's trained in a certain
way, that, effectively makes it
00:35:02.406 --> 00:35:06.116
very good for, visual design.
00:35:06.806 --> 00:35:11.836
And so it can do things like come
up with variants, and it can even do
00:35:11.866 --> 00:35:16.986
things like add editable text to images,
and you can give it a layout and draw
00:35:16.986 --> 00:35:21.766
boxes over how you want that layout to
look, and it will fill that layout s-
00:35:21.766 --> 00:35:23.776
with a mixture of text and images and,
00:35:26.156 --> 00:35:28.216
And it's not good at anything else.
00:35:28.306 --> 00:35:31.506
It only takes JSON as a, an input.
00:35:33.736 --> 00:35:38.046
it's very opinionated, but it does
this one thing well, and I th- and
00:35:38.046 --> 00:35:40.826
it, m- just I've been playing around
with it, and it's pretty good.
00:35:40.856 --> 00:35:44.856
I'm not e-excellent at it yet, so
I'm not producing incredible things.
00:35:44.856 --> 00:35:45.056
But,
00:35:47.724 --> 00:35:50.654
I think it points to a future where you
start to rather than have these great
00:35:50.674 --> 00:35:54.664
big AGI-esque models that are meant to
be good at everything, you start to have
00:35:54.664 --> 00:35:56.324
smaller models that are good at one thing.
00:35:56.654 --> 00:36:00.224
The most exciting thing about this,
because image models is tricky,
00:36:00.794 --> 00:36:03.954
there's a lot of training data in
there that is effectively stolen.
00:36:04.494 --> 00:36:09.214
and one thing that he said on this
podcast is, you can take this model,
00:36:09.214 --> 00:36:12.664
which is open weight, and you can
train it yourself with your own work,
00:36:13.064 --> 00:36:15.134
and then it can become your own model.
00:36:16.034 --> 00:36:21.584
and because it's only nine billion,
in size, it's-- you can run it on
00:36:22.154 --> 00:36:24.914
small hardware and run it yourself.
00:36:25.124 --> 00:36:27.654
And so you can start to have what
looks like a little bit more of, a
00:36:27.654 --> 00:36:32.974
personal model as a tool, which I
think has been hard to imagine so far.
00:36:33.364 --> 00:36:35.114
So it's an exciting direction.
00:36:36.114 --> 00:36:37.814
I've only just started
playing around with it.
00:36:37.984 --> 00:36:39.324
I think the pricing looks fair.
00:36:40.414 --> 00:36:47.074
and we do actually have an opinionated,
art direction for our podcast artwork and
00:36:47.164 --> 00:36:49.354
our artwork for our s- site generally.
00:36:49.754 --> 00:36:53.644
So I'm thinking we could set up a
little workflow where we can generate
00:36:53.674 --> 00:36:56.504
consistent artwork with, this tool.
00:36:58.864 --> 00:37:02.114
I will-- I'll basically report back
when I've put something together
00:37:02.224 --> 00:37:06.734
that I think might work and, we could
even host it ourselves somewhere
00:37:06.734 --> 00:37:08.434
and then, it really is just ours.
00:37:08.824 --> 00:37:12.574
Train it with our own, favorite
images or our own images.
00:37:13.864 --> 00:37:18.354
so check out, ideogram.ai.
00:37:18.644 --> 00:37:22.154
and, I haven't played around with
image models for ages, really.
00:37:22.184 --> 00:37:24.804
Not in, in any sort of way
where I'm evaluating new ones.
00:37:24.834 --> 00:37:30.644
I think we've played a little bit with,
Flora and some of these kind of more
00:37:30.644 --> 00:37:37.284
visual tools, but it's exciting to see
innovation in the w- in image models.
00:37:37.504 --> 00:37:42.814
And actually, this is, this is such
a good transition into, an image
00:37:42.844 --> 00:37:47.844
model tool or company that has
built something completely mad or
00:37:47.874 --> 00:37:51.654
unexpected, which is Midjourney.
00:37:52.744 --> 00:37:53.464
So
00:37:55.874 --> 00:37:58.874
I spotted that this week and
had to double check it wasn't a
00:37:58.904 --> 00:38:00.074
prank or it wasn't April the 1st.
00:38:01.904 --> 00:38:02.974
it's so unusual.
00:38:03.494 --> 00:38:05.664
But Tom, you wrote it down,
so you, tell us about it
00:38:08.176 --> 00:38:09.776
Tom: yeah, very interesting.
00:38:09.786 --> 00:38:10.956
Thank you first of all for that.
00:38:11.306 --> 00:38:12.746
That was a very long quick-fire round.
00:38:13.292 --> 00:38:14.012
Jonny: know, sorry.
00:38:14.236 --> 00:38:15.086
Tom: r- but it
00:38:15.192 --> 00:38:15.342
Jonny: It's a
00:38:15.426 --> 00:38:15.616
Tom: very
00:38:15.882 --> 00:38:16.892
Jonny: mid-fire, mid,
00:38:17.476 --> 00:38:17.946
Tom: Midfire.
00:38:18.006 --> 00:38:18.246
Yeah.
00:38:18.252 --> 00:38:18.672
Jonny: speed.
00:38:18.822 --> 00:38:19.092
Yeah.
00:38:19.156 --> 00:38:19.946
Tom: we can work on this.
00:38:20.306 --> 00:38:20.916
we can work on this.
00:38:20.916 --> 00:38:25.576
We can shrink our speed,
for these quick-fire things.
00:38:26.866 --> 00:38:33.046
yeah, so the Midjourney pivot, Midjourney,
people might know it, know them from their
00:38:33.266 --> 00:38:39.056
image generation, technology capability
that's been there for a long time.
00:38:39.056 --> 00:38:40.376
I feel like they've been one of the,
00:38:41.656 --> 00:38:42.596
the image
00:38:44.596 --> 00:38:47.636
AI companies for the last few years now.
00:38:48.692 --> 00:38:49.692
Jonny: Smith eating spaghetti.
00:38:49.692 --> 00:38:51.532
I'm sure it wasn't that
then back in the day.
00:38:51.736 --> 00:38:51.926
Tom: Oh,
00:38:52.202 --> 00:38:52.432
Jonny: May-
00:38:52.596 --> 00:38:52.976
Tom: Yeah.
00:38:53.426 --> 00:38:53.806
Yeah.
00:38:53.822 --> 00:38:53.842
Jonny: know.
00:38:55.046 --> 00:38:57.846
Tom: that was the great
challenge of image generation,
00:38:58.060 --> 00:38:58.540
Jonny: Yeah
00:38:58.866 --> 00:38:59.876
Tom: managing to overcome that.
00:39:00.596 --> 00:39:07.986
anyway, last week they pivoted
to, running a wellness, health
00:39:07.986 --> 00:39:11.286
and wellness-focused spa company.
00:39:12.566 --> 00:39:15.256
I don't know if that's a fair
description of what they do now, but
00:39:15.256 --> 00:39:20.936
they have an exciting website which
has a very cinematic video of, a woman
00:39:20.936 --> 00:39:27.036
lower- lowering herself into this
water-type container and scanning
00:39:27.036 --> 00:39:32.016
lots of vital signs and giving a
health report on various things,
00:39:34.026 --> 00:39:40.296
making health checkup more
like a spa experience.
00:39:40.636 --> 00:39:44.786
So yeah, big change in
direction, but, interesting.
00:39:46.216 --> 00:39:48.596
I've been to Nico Health in London,
00:39:49.556 --> 00:39:51.376
I don't know if you're familiar
with that, Jonny, but they
00:39:52.404 --> 00:39:53.524
Jonny: I've been to the one in Manchester.
00:39:54.266 --> 00:39:54.576
Tom: Oh,
00:39:55.094 --> 00:39:55.384
Jonny: Yeah
00:39:55.546 --> 00:39:55.866
Tom: Yeah.
00:39:55.906 --> 00:40:01.836
They've, I feel like it's in the kind of
space of imagining what is now possible
00:40:01.836 --> 00:40:07.966
with the level of, health data that it's
easy to capture now and creating a whole,
00:40:10.666 --> 00:40:15.466
an experience around making that
far easier to get that data and
00:40:15.466 --> 00:40:20.146
level of insight and, commentary
from medical professionals in that
00:40:20.204 --> 00:40:20.544
Jonny: Yeah.
00:40:21.146 --> 00:40:22.296
Tom: So yeah, really interesting
00:40:22.324 --> 00:40:22.604
Jonny: But
00:40:22.616 --> 00:40:23.836
Tom: But yeah, a wild pivot
00:40:24.886 --> 00:40:25.976
Jonny: The, stats around
this are mad though.
00:40:25.986 --> 00:40:31.026
It's like way cheaper,
significantly cheaper than an MRI
00:40:31.036 --> 00:40:33.156
to do-- to produce better data.
00:40:34.106 --> 00:40:37.356
So like I think, Neko Health
is interesting and great.
00:40:37.926 --> 00:40:43.536
I, come from a family with history of skin
cancers and things like that, and what
00:40:43.536 --> 00:40:47.076
Neko Health does amazingly is it does like
a full body photo, and it tracks every
00:40:47.076 --> 00:40:49.696
single mole and everything on your body.
00:40:51.036 --> 00:40:53.076
and they do a blood test
and other stuff as well.
00:40:53.236 --> 00:40:55.586
This I think from reading…
00:40:55.596 --> 00:41:00.986
I can't find the bit in the article
now, but describes, being able to take
00:41:01.736 --> 00:41:06.896
internal body scans to war zones and
all of these things that you just can't
00:41:06.906 --> 00:41:10.976
do easily, or cheaply anywhere else.
00:41:10.976 --> 00:41:15.416
So it like dramatically reduces the
cost and the complexity of, finding out
00:41:15.546 --> 00:41:17.146
what's going on in the inside of us.
00:41:17.936 --> 00:41:22.816
so it could have really
profound impact on medicine.
00:41:24.726 --> 00:41:28.996
and like I think if you h- to hear that
bit of news and it was from a medical
00:41:28.996 --> 00:41:35.816
device company or some enormous I don't
know, postdoc at Cambridge or something
00:41:35.816 --> 00:41:36.916
like that, you'd be like, "Yeah, cool.
00:41:36.926 --> 00:41:37.236
Good.
00:41:37.296 --> 00:41:37.986
Advances."
00:41:38.446 --> 00:41:42.086
And just f-for it to come from a,
company that you'd associate with
00:41:42.086 --> 00:41:49.796
like slightly edgy sort of sci-fi
image generation is a real curveball.
00:41:49.806 --> 00:41:53.496
So it'll be interesting to see
how they balance Midjourney
00:41:53.496 --> 00:41:55.706
Medical with Midjourney.
00:41:56.886 --> 00:41:59.186
the only, the only-- the company
it reminds me of actually is,
00:42:00.696 --> 00:42:06.036
Aerobie, which is like a Frisbee, an
AeroPress invented by the same guy.
00:42:06.762 --> 00:42:07.062
Tom: Yeah.
00:42:07.546 --> 00:42:10.646
Jonny: Just like he's a-- That
is a true inventor, and it feels
00:42:10.646 --> 00:42:12.666
like Midjourney are inventors.
00:42:13.176 --> 00:42:17.606
they're, like, "What else can we use
this bit of-- this algorithm for?
00:42:18.206 --> 00:42:19.926
If we put it in a camera,
what could it do?"
00:42:20.206 --> 00:42:24.156
And then they didn't really think of
anything as outside their purview,
00:42:24.902 --> 00:42:25.262
Tom: Yeah.
00:42:25.386 --> 00:42:25.966
Jonny: cool.
00:42:27.922 --> 00:42:28.552
Tom: That is true.
00:42:28.722 --> 00:42:29.242
That is true.
00:42:30.052 --> 00:42:30.402
Yeah.
00:42:30.438 --> 00:42:34.988
Jonny: It ma- makes you think about what
these companies are going to end up being.
00:42:34.988 --> 00:42:39.758
This-- the, An- Anthropic setting
up wet labs to get into bio and,
00:42:41.698 --> 00:42:46.298
Midjourney building medical devices
and, these companies that have this
00:42:46.548 --> 00:42:52.088
IP around intelligence don't have to
stop at consumer hardware, which is
00:42:52.088 --> 00:42:58.708
what the last generation of companies
did, and, actually can say, "What
00:42:58.708 --> 00:43:00.338
problems should we solve in the world?"
00:43:00.618 --> 00:43:07.398
This is an optimistic, alternative to
this like dystopian, world run by tech
00:43:07.408 --> 00:43:12.538
bros who are entirely disinterested
in anyone other than themselves, which
00:43:12.568 --> 00:43:18.258
I think you can see the sort of Thiel
and Musk e-end of things is that.
00:43:18.268 --> 00:43:22.068
But then there are also people
saying, obviously they, wanna make
00:43:22.068 --> 00:43:25.328
some money out of It, it will be a
valuable company, but it's also just
00:43:25.338 --> 00:43:26.728
something that is great for the world.
00:43:29.468 --> 00:43:29.718
yeah.
00:43:29.758 --> 00:43:31.828
What-- It'd be interesting to
see where some of these companies
00:43:31.848 --> 00:43:35.608
end up and what they, what other
lines of business they have, but
00:43:36.390 --> 00:43:36.730
Tom: Yeah.
00:43:37.050 --> 00:43:37.390
Yeah.
00:43:37.430 --> 00:43:37.900
So true.
00:43:38.476 --> 00:43:39.096
Jonny: It's a good spot
00:43:39.650 --> 00:43:39.950
Tom: speaking…
00:43:40.300 --> 00:43:41.570
Yeah, so true.
00:43:41.570 --> 00:43:46.000
And, speaking of lines of business, I
think there's one final thing that I
00:43:46.000 --> 00:43:50.460
wanted to make sure we covered today,
in this podcast, which is a website
00:43:50.460 --> 00:43:54.500
called In the Weights, which has been, I
think, doing the rounds on social media.
00:43:54.500 --> 00:43:57.980
I'm gonna share, my screen actually
with, with In the Weights on it so
00:43:57.980 --> 00:44:00.290
you can see what I'm referring to
if you're watching this on YouTube.
00:44:01.240 --> 00:44:07.970
it is a website that helps people
understand if their name is
00:44:07.980 --> 00:44:12.800
specifically used in the training
data for each of these AI models.
00:44:13.350 --> 00:44:21.130
And I thought we could close today's
podcast by, typing our own names into
00:44:21.130 --> 00:44:24.630
this website and seeing who comes back
as being more in the weights or less in
00:44:24.630 --> 00:44:26.180
the weights or not in the weights at all.
00:44:26.330 --> 00:44:26.740
I don't know.
00:44:26.904 --> 00:44:27.104
Jonny: Yeah.
00:44:27.544 --> 00:44:28.704
We can be mysterious.
00:44:28.884 --> 00:44:29.114
Yeah
00:44:29.150 --> 00:44:31.890
Tom: we have not done this before, so
I'm gonna, I'm gonna try this live.
00:44:31.890 --> 00:44:34.980
I'm not gonna add my credit card
information, which just popped up there.
00:44:34.980 --> 00:44:36.750
That be a terrible idea.
00:44:36.800 --> 00:44:38.330
Don't do that, please.
00:44:38.750 --> 00:44:39.040
Okay.
00:44:39.080 --> 00:44:39.780
I'm gonna add…
00:44:40.440 --> 00:44:41.140
I'm gonna search for you.
00:44:41.170 --> 00:44:42.970
Is Jonny Birch in the weights?
00:44:44.300 --> 00:44:46.420
You have a 22…
00:44:46.890 --> 00:44:52.300
228 strength, top 25% British
product designer and entrepreneur.
00:44:53.480 --> 00:44:53.690
Oh,
00:44:53.910 --> 00:44:54.270
Jonny: Oh, I'm in,
00:44:54.340 --> 00:44:54.490
Tom: and
00:44:54.890 --> 00:45:00.500
Jonny: OpenAI knows a lot about me, and
Anthropic know a little bit less about me.
00:45:00.640 --> 00:45:01.590
And then who was the other one?
00:45:03.120 --> 00:45:04.450
If you just scroll up again.
00:45:04.670 --> 00:45:04.960
Yeah,
00:45:05.056 --> 00:45:05.456
Tom: Kimmy
00:45:05.550 --> 00:45:07.150
Jonny: a cyclist and a songwriter.
00:45:07.832 --> 00:45:09.032
Tom: Oh, oh, so this is not you
00:45:09.100 --> 00:45:10.520
Jonny: Ki- Kimi K too.
00:45:11.010 --> 00:45:12.000
No, the top one is me.
00:45:12.280 --> 00:45:12.970
Top one is me.
00:45:13.776 --> 00:45:14.346
Tom: Also, you are
00:45:14.400 --> 00:45:15.630
Jonny: And then there's two other…
00:45:16.340 --> 00:45:19.430
I'm the top Jonny Birch of three
Jonny Birches, which is exciting.
00:45:20.090 --> 00:45:22.990
Always wanted to be the
best Jonny Birch I can be
00:45:24.248 --> 00:45:24.998
Tom: Oh, you do a great job.
00:45:25.420 --> 00:45:26.060
Jonny: Yeah, Kimmy.
00:45:26.060 --> 00:45:26.492
I don't know.
00:45:26.492 --> 00:45:28.040
I th- yeah, d- don't know much about Kimmy
00:45:29.284 --> 00:45:30.304
Tom: Okay, clearly
00:45:30.350 --> 00:45:30.840
Jonny: you, Tom?
00:45:30.894 --> 00:45:31.714
Tom: in the training data.
00:45:32.534 --> 00:45:33.824
so you got 228.
00:45:33.874 --> 00:45:35.134
Do you think I'm gonna
get higher or lower?
00:45:35.294 --> 00:45:37.924
That's … Or just n-
I'm … Maybe I won't exist.
00:45:37.954 --> 00:45:38.354
We'll see.
00:45:40.114 --> 00:45:41.404
Oh, this is thinking harder.
00:45:42.254 --> 00:45:45.564
probably a sign that
I'm, not in the weights.
00:45:46.264 --> 00:45:49.884
I have not actually tried this before
doing this live, so we will see
00:45:50.884 --> 00:45:51.684
Jonny: Oh, he's really thinking
00:45:52.684 --> 00:45:54.114
I can cut out some of the silence
00:45:55.113 --> 00:45:56.123
Tom: Yeah, or just so we can
00:45:57.040 --> 00:45:57.240
Jonny: Exactly.
00:45:57.460 --> 00:45:57.590
And
00:45:58.163 --> 00:45:59.193
Tom: speed up this wait
00:46:00.193 --> 00:46:01.103
Jonny: 21 seconds
00:46:01.701 --> 00:46:03.111
Tom: clearly I'm the
first person to enter this
00:46:04.567 --> 00:46:05.137
Jonny: Yeah
00:46:06.137 --> 00:46:06.917
Still thinking
00:46:07.917 --> 00:46:08.717
Tom: So I'm not-- this
00:46:08.814 --> 00:46:09.204
Jonny: There we go.
00:46:09.944 --> 00:46:12.144
California Republican poli- no.
00:46:12.257 --> 00:46:12.817
Tom: Yeah.
00:46:12.934 --> 00:46:14.174
Jonny: Australian politician.
00:46:14.654 --> 00:46:16.794
Tom Harmon I feel is a bit
more of a common name, though
00:46:17.427 --> 00:46:18.347
Tom: Yeah, maybe.
00:46:18.417 --> 00:46:18.807
Maybe.
00:46:19.597 --> 00:46:19.937
British
00:46:20.176 --> 00:46:21.556
Jonny: he's very-- he's top 7%.
00:46:23.017 --> 00:46:23.527
Tom: Which one?
00:46:23.697 --> 00:46:24.207
Oh, yeah.
00:46:25.637 --> 00:46:29.187
Yeah, this is, Actually, I
think he might own the original
00:46:29.227 --> 00:46:30.767
domain name, tomharman.com.
00:46:33.167 --> 00:46:33.477
so
00:46:33.480 --> 00:46:34.240
Jonny: would make sense.
00:46:34.357 --> 00:46:36.487
Tom: been my nemesis for many
years with that domain name.
00:46:37.850 --> 00:46:38.930
Jonny: How do we topple him, Tom?
00:46:39.280 --> 00:46:40.710
This podcast needs to go really well.
00:46:41.710 --> 00:46:44.590
Tom: but yeah, not Australian
politician, not a British former
00:46:44.590 --> 00:46:49.490
pr- football defender, not a British
social work professor, not an
00:46:49.490 --> 00:46:53.140
Australian rules football player,
not a 16th century, English writer.
00:46:53.140 --> 00:46:57.000
So I'm, I'm basically not in there,
I think is the answer to this.
00:46:57.270 --> 00:46:59.220
Showing four possible hallucinations.
00:46:59.470 --> 00:47:01.860
Nope, definitely not a conservative MEP.
00:47:04.640 --> 00:47:05.680
think I'm that either.
00:47:05.770 --> 00:47:10.410
A British journalist, Australian rugby
league player, an English cricketer.
00:47:10.570 --> 00:47:14.510
So no, I am not in the weights
is the answer to this, question.
00:47:15.200 --> 00:47:15.570
Jonny: Wow.
00:47:16.150 --> 00:47:16.980
I'm so sorry, Tom
00:47:17.980 --> 00:47:22.350
Tom: I think in the weights is a
proxy for being, and, by that measure,
00:47:22.350 --> 00:47:25.330
Jonny, are more famous than I am.
00:47:27.010 --> 00:47:30.180
I think we've also learned that there
are a lot of people with my name who
00:47:30.473 --> 00:47:31.053
Jonny: Yeah.
00:47:31.070 --> 00:47:31.480
Tom: fam- more
00:47:31.743 --> 00:47:34.463
Jonny: you've got tough,
you got a tough competition
00:47:37.076 --> 00:47:38.746
Tom: So maybe my name is more famous than
00:47:38.855 --> 00:47:40.335
Jonny: Maybe we can make you infamous.
00:47:41.335 --> 00:47:42.155
Tom: we, shall see about that.
00:47:42.865 --> 00:47:44.405
Um, anyway, that was fun.
00:47:44.725 --> 00:47:48.985
In the Weights, try it out, see if your
name is in the dataset, or probably
00:47:48.985 --> 00:47:50.235
just don't give them that information.
00:47:50.275 --> 00:47:53.235
Maybe we don't need to put our
names into the internet anymore.
00:47:54.375 --> 00:47:56.705
before we wrap up though, one last
thing I want to mention, and maybe
00:47:56.705 --> 00:48:02.635
this is a teaser for a future is that
we have been cooking up an exciting
00:48:04.135 --> 00:48:09.145
design workshop, which is open to--
will be open to independent people
00:48:09.165 --> 00:48:16.435
who want to sign up and join us for a
live online half-day workshop focused
00:48:16.455 --> 00:48:18.135
on building your own design tools.
00:48:18.715 --> 00:48:21.095
so we'll share more about
that in the next few weeks.
00:48:21.575 --> 00:48:24.035
But now, know that is coming soon.
00:48:24.045 --> 00:48:27.765
It will be ticketed,
late July, early August.
00:48:28.095 --> 00:48:33.325
So if you are working at a company that
you're interested in, spending more time
00:48:33.325 --> 00:48:38.245
building with AI and you, would really l-
like an excuse or you would like structure
00:48:38.245 --> 00:48:41.985
or you would like support and expertise
around you to help do that, we will be
00:48:41.985 --> 00:48:43.605
launching that in the next few weeks.
00:48:43.945 --> 00:48:48.165
So keep your eyes peeled and, be a
great use of that personal learning
00:48:48.165 --> 00:48:49.495
budget if you have one as well.
00:48:49.615 --> 00:48:50.005
So
00:48:50.075 --> 00:48:50.435
Jonny: yeah.
00:48:50.655 --> 00:48:51.375
Tom: keep that in mind.
00:48:51.715 --> 00:48:54.355
Jonny: We did some of these this time
last year, and we made them four days
00:48:54.355 --> 00:48:58.105
long, and the thing we learned was we
should not make them four days long.
00:48:58.365 --> 00:49:00.465
So half a day, only
half a day of your time.
00:49:01.857 --> 00:49:02.147
Tom: Today.
00:49:02.147 --> 00:49:07.797
But, we have also run, a similar workshop
to this with, a, few companies and
00:49:07.847 --> 00:49:14.527
the, specific format has been tried
and tested and feels, very effective
00:49:14.537 --> 00:49:17.397
for a cross-disciplinary design group.
00:49:17.567 --> 00:49:22.517
So we have run it with a group of up
to 60 people, so who knows if we'll get
00:49:22.517 --> 00:49:27.037
to that number with this, but it, it
scales quite nicely to, to large numbers.
00:49:29.197 --> 00:49:29.717
check it out.
00:49:29.897 --> 00:49:32.637
Come along if you fancy it,
and, we would love to have you.
00:49:32.697 --> 00:49:37.657
But more details with actual information
and a URL, we'll send you that soon.
00:49:38.357 --> 00:49:41.037
But I think for now we should probably
wrap up there, unless there's any final
00:49:41.037 --> 00:49:41.807
words you wanted to mention, Jonny?
00:49:42.757 --> 00:49:45.507
Jonny: No, please do tell us
what to put in our podcast.
00:49:46.047 --> 00:49:48.797
we would really appreciate
guidance on this.
00:49:49.287 --> 00:49:52.227
If you're invested now, if you got to
the end of this episode, then you are
00:49:52.227 --> 00:49:54.807
invested to the tune of 50-odd minutes.
00:49:54.817 --> 00:50:00.327
So spend one extra minute and
send us a message, and that
00:50:00.367 --> 00:50:02.197
is podcast@nearfuture.works,
00:50:02.227 --> 00:50:05.417
or if you know us, then just
use whatever communication
00:50:05.417 --> 00:50:07.217
channel you, you know us through.
00:50:08.177 --> 00:50:09.437
and that's it, yeah.
00:50:09.437 --> 00:50:10.247
Until next week.
00:50:10.247 --> 00:50:17.367
Thanks, Tom, and let's go and enjoy
the 39-degree balmy heat of, of
00:50:17.467 --> 00:50:18.687
London and Manchester this week
00:50:20.023 --> 00:50:21.333
Tom: Yeah, stay safe everyone.
00:50:21.403 --> 00:50:21.953
Jonny: See you next week
00:50:22.540 --> 00:50:23.280
Tom: we'll see you next week
00:50:24.049 --> 00:50:24.269
Jonny: Bye