Wild Magic with Abiola Bello

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Hi, I'm Katy.
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I'm Ali.
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And welcome to Mostly Book Talk.
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In this episode, we talk to Abiola Bello about her various books and with her all of her different hats on.
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We mainly focus on the Wild Magic series.
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And since we've recorded this, she is the proud recipient of the Spark Book Awards for the 7 Plus category for her first book in the series Wild Magic, The Legend of the Black Lion.
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Yeah.
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So enjoy.
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We are very pleased to have with us today Abiola Bello, who's the author of books from early readers through middle grade NYA.
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She's a co-founder of Hashtag Press, one of the UK's first diverse children's publishers, the Diverse Book Awards and the Inc.
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Prize for Independently Published Children's Books.
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We're talking to us today about the third book in her wild magic series, Escape of the Sea Turtles.
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So welcome, Abiola, and welcome back, I should say.
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You seem to be one of the busiest people in children's publishing at the moment.
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You had four books out last year, is that right?
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No, it wasn't as fun as it sounds.
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I don't know if it sounds fun actually, but it wasn't that fun.
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It was actually quite chaotic.
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And then this year I was like, oh, okay, I've got two out beginning of the year, then I can just focus on writing, and then there's another Rashford coming out in October.
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And I was like, oh, okay.
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So yeah, that's interesting.
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So Abiola's got a really interesting history and publishing and backstory.
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And we have a great interview with her from 2024, which gives a lot of that.
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So if you haven't listened, why not go listen?
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But Abiola, just for people who have been very remiss and haven't listened to that full interview, can you just give us a quick recap of how you came into publishing?
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Because it's quite an unusual route, isn't it?
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Yeah.
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I started writing when I was about eight years old, just for fun, because I just love to read books.
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Then when I got into year seven, we did like a crave writing exercise, and then my teacher called me up.
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I thought maybe I was in trouble because I used to get in trouble a lot in school.
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And she was just like, What do you want to be when you're older?
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And I was like, Oh, well, tennis player, because my mum wants me to be.
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I'm not that talented tennis.
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And she's the one, you become an author.
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And I was like, Is that even a real job?
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And she said, Yeah, it's a real job.
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We can get paid to write stories.
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And I was like, Oh, that makes sense.
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My parents were like, it doesn't make sense.
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It's stupid.
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Your teacher's an idiot.
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They were very against it.
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And I was like, No, I think I can do this.
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But then the question was, how do you do this?
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I have no idea.
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I've never met anyone who works in publishing.
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I went to uni, which I hated, ended up leaving.
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And so I just taught myself the industry.
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I tried to get a work experience at Random House when it was just random house.
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And that's when I learned about things like editorial and rights.
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I'd never heard of this stuff before.
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Didn't get any work experience in Random House.
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Tried to work in Waterstones, couldn't get a job.
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And I was like, it's just working against me.
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So I just basically decided to invest in myself.
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I went to lots of courses to learn about publishing.
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I self-published my first book.
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Then I got an agent because everyone said you need an agent.
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And I thought, okay, I've got my agent now.
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That's fantastic.
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And then we got offered a book deal for my Emily series.
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And then they made everyone redundant.
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Yeah.
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So then my book was off the table.
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And then nothing happened from then.
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And then I started meeting other authors.
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And then I started getting authors actually messaging me, asking me for advice.
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And I was kind of like, I just, I'm just winging this.
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I don't know if I'm doing anything well.
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And then I met Helen.
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No, my friend actually met Helen at an event.
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And she thought my friend was a publicist.
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And she wasn't, she's just a good little chat.
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And she gave my friend her card.
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So I messaged Helen and I was like, I don't have any money.
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So I don't know what you want to do.
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And Helen's like, okay, that's what within your budget.
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And she got me lots of great PR marketing for Emily.
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And then I remember I spoke to Virgin startup.
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They were looking for young people who want to start a business and they wanted to invest in them.
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And I was like, oh, maybe me and Helen should do something together.
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Bear in mind, me and Helen didn't know each other in that way.
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I think I met her maybe once, but we seemed to get along well.
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And I just kind of told her and she was like, okay.
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So then we kind of put this whole pitch together, got the money, started up the author school, which was great because that's when I managed to get agents and editors there very easily to talk about publishing.
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And I was like, oh, this is why I wanted to learn.
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And then I started making contacts from there.
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And then that's when I realized that having a really good agent is important, not just having an agent.
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So then I looked on my agent, God bless her.
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And I was like, I don't think this is the right agent for me.
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So then it took me a while because obviously I'd been told forever you need to have an agent.
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And now here I am because of pain firing my agent.
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But I felt a bit more confident because I knew more people in the industry.
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I felt like I could connect.
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So I fired my agent.
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I spoke to two really good agents, and they seemed excited to sign me, but they both were going off on maternity leave.
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And I was just like, oh not good timing.
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I know.
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And then a lady called Stephanie Nimmo had come to the author school and she'd written this memoir, which was later called What's in the Plan.
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And she really liked me and Helen, and Steph is great.
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And she was like, I want you not to publish my memoir.
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We were like, we're not publishers.
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And I was like, maybe we should be.
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That was the wisest choice in life, but it's fine.
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And so we published Steph's book.
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That went into these top 10, which was amazing.
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It did so well, such a great book.
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And we're redoing that book actually this summer.
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And then hashtag Ben grew.
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And then when we had signed Steph, I then got offered a book deal for Emily.
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And then Helen got very nervous that we were pretending to be publishers and pretending like we do what we were doing.
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And she was worried we were going to mess up Steph's book.
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And Steph's book's memoir, it's very sad.
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And we were like, we can't mess this up, right?
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And Helen's like, we need to practice on a book.
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And I was like, yeah, what book?
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We need to practice on your book.
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I was like, what?
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And then I had to turn down this deal and give my Emily books to hashtag so we could practice.
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And if we messed it up, then I guess it's just my book that got messed up.
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And we didn't mess it up.
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And that's basically why Emily is published with hashtag and hashtag grew.
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And then in 2020, I met my agent Gemma on Twitter.
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She wasn't open for submissions.
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I actually was talking to another agent at the time.
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So I wasn't looking for her to be my agent.
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And she really liked my book.
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And we had a chat and I said, I'm not looking for an agent.
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She was like, Well, I think you should take me.
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And then she like persuaded me, we got along really well, and the rest is history.
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Wow.
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That's a very good potted history.
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But I love the fact that hashtag you had to practice, like Helen just threw your book into the sacrificial altar to have a go at.
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The thing is, I was so confident that we could do Steph's book well, but then when it then comes to celebrati with your book, suddenly I was like, huh, hold on, how confident am I?
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But realistically, we didn't know what we were doing.
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We didn't have a sales team for two years because no one took us seriously.
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I don't think we took ourselves seriously.
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I don't know why Steph took us seriously, but she did bless her, and it worked really well.
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And now we've done 20 plus books and we're 10 years in.
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So yeah, it's fantastic.
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And what we wanted to chat to you today is about your wild magic series, which is quite a different world from Emily Knight and your YA books.
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So it has the lovely twins, Misha and Ziggy.
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Where did they come from?
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What was the spark for those two lovely kids?
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Initially, Misha and Ziggy were sisters.
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That was initially my thing.
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My friend had been telling me to name a character after her.
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So I called, I think it was Misha and Zara, I think it was, because my friends named Zara.
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And then when we pitched it to SNS, my editor at Simon Mina was like, I think it'd be better if it was brother and sister, so that we don't thing the boy readers.
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I was like, okay.
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And she was just like, well, that Misha and a Zed name.
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So I thought, okay, maybe Ziggy.
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She goes, Oh, what about if they were twins instead?
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That'd be really fun.
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And I was like, yeah.
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So then my friend got kicked to the curb.
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But I did dedicate a second book to her.
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Then that's my book.
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That would have been an interesting conversation.
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You promised her a book.
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I was like, sorry, babe, but it's so name Ziggy.
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And she's like, What?
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Begins with a Zed.
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I was like, they like Misha.
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I can't like, come on.
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So you got twins.
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How did you decide on their backstory and grow them as characters?
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Me and my agent Gemma were just talking about shows we used to watch as kids.
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And I had said, Oh, there's this really great cartoon on Nickelodeon called The Wild Thornbury's.
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And Gemma was like, I love the Wild Thornbury's.
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Bear in mind, no one I talked to seems to even know what I'm talking about or didn't really love it.
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And I think it's a very underrated cartoon.
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And so we were talking about how amazing it was, how no one cares.
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And I was like, oh my gosh, what if I did a Wild Thornbury's on Made It Black?
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And we just were laughing about it.
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It wasn't anything serious.
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And this was like, I don't think I had written the YA yet.
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Because I had Wild Magic for quite a long time, actually.
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I don't think I'd even started the YA.
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I hadn't signed the YA, definitely not.
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So I started thinking about this whole pitch.
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And we actually had a different publisher in mind for it.
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And they wanted us to send like five different ideas to them.
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So I did a few, and then they picked two.
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One of them was Wild Magic.
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And then I just fleshed it out.
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Then when I got the YA deal with SNS, we just thought it probably is polite to tell them, Oh, I've got a chapter book.
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If you want to look at it, but we was going to go somewhere else.
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And then my editor was like, Yeah, do you want to write a chapter and just see if you can write in this age group?
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And I was like, I don't know about this age group.
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So I was, I just wrote it and then it worked, which was great.
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But I love an animal documentary.
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I just really just can just re-watch any animal thing a lot.
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And I just think there are not a lot of books that I've seen with black kids and animals and magic and adventure.
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I haven't seen that.
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I'm not in the chapter book space prior to Wild Magic.
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I didn't know that there wasn't a lot of chapter book options, and actually there's not a lot of black characters in chapter book, I didn't know any of that stuff.
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So that was interesting to learn all of that.
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And yeah, Wild Magic has been a fun little ride.
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It's the hardest book I've definitely done because it I went into it thinking everything was going to be fancy and I could just make make up an animal and just have fun.
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And SS are like, oh no, we need facts and we need, and I was like, what?
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And I did not sign up for that.
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So there was a lot of research, and the research gets on my nerves so much because I'll write something and I have a habit of finding information, not remembering where I got it from.
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So when it gets flagged, I'm like, where did I see that?
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And sometimes I can't find it.
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So they think I made it up, but I didn't make it up.
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I looked for it.
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So that can be quite annoying.
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They were like, oh, kids love learning facts.
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I was like, do they?
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And I was really mad about it actually, because that's not what I wanted to do.
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And even with the black lion, I remember years ago on Twitter, it was this black lion that went viral.
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It was jet black.
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And everyone was like, oh my god, this is amazing.
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I was like, oh my god, this is so cool.
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And I think a year later everyone was like, oh, it was Photoshop, it's not really a thing.
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But there were black lions, not obviously like that, but there were black lions lived in Ethiopia.
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And I was like, that's really cool.
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Oh my gosh, I should say something about this.
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I don't know why I thought I had to, but I did.
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And that's where the black lion came from.
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But when we initially start in the book, I wanted it to be based on the viral one, like jet black and really cool.
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And they were like, no, we can't just make stuff up.
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And I was like, what when they were like, oh no, it's gonna be like non-fiction too.
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And I was like, no, it's not.
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I was so angry because I didn't want to do that.
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Yeah, so it has to be branded in facts, but they do have special powers, don't they?
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Magical powers.
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They do.
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I got my way in in some ways.
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So yeah, I could have my little magic in there.
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So yeah, they have their magical powers, and I thought it would be fun that the twins had this special connection with animals.
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Their dad was a wildlife too presenter, and he just doesn't know what's going on.
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And I thought that was just a really fun, cute thing that the kids could do.
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So tell us about their powers.
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What powers do they have for people who haven't read the books?
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So Misha can speak to animals, and Ziggy can shape shift into animals, but only these close to them.
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And once he's shapeshifted once into animal, he can always then do it.
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And he can speak to animals as well once he's in animal form.
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But as a human, he can't.
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So there's lots of debates with kids when I go to school.
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They're like, I think Ziggy has the best power because he can.
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I'm just like, but Misha can always be on.
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So I don't know about that.
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But yeah, so Misha's probably a bit more sensible with things.
00:12:07.279 --> 00:12:10.320
Ziggy just gets very excited about everything.
00:12:10.320 --> 00:12:11.519
He just goes head first.
00:12:11.519 --> 00:12:12.639
And they're really cute.
00:12:12.639 --> 00:12:16.080
They don't really fight, they have a very sweet relationship.
00:12:16.080 --> 00:12:20.240
They've inherited these powers from their mother and their grandmother.
00:12:20.240 --> 00:12:30.080
And their grandma, who lives in Nigeria, has told them to keep it a secret because when their mum was known in the town to have this power, they thought she was like a witch and really dangerous.
00:12:30.080 --> 00:12:31.440
So they were like, keep it secret.
00:12:31.440 --> 00:12:33.279
You can't even tell your dad this.
00:12:33.279 --> 00:12:35.519
And their mum just loves being an animal.
00:12:35.519 --> 00:12:37.440
So she's just gone somewhere.
00:12:37.440 --> 00:12:38.799
So I've met her.
00:12:38.799 --> 00:12:40.639
I don't know how that plays out.
00:12:40.639 --> 00:12:41.440
She's gone.
00:12:41.440 --> 00:12:46.639
Yeah, and they're with their dad and they hang out with their grandparents and they have a very sweet little family.
00:12:46.960 --> 00:12:52.320
So when you go in schools and the kids argue over which is the best power, which one do they come down on?
00:12:52.639 --> 00:12:59.120
I think they're mainly drawn to Ziggy because once he's an animal, then he can speak as well and he has Misha's power.
00:12:59.120 --> 00:13:00.879
So I think they're kind of drawn to Ziggy.
00:13:00.879 --> 00:13:03.360
And some kids have been like, I feel bad for Misha because she can't down.
00:13:03.360 --> 00:13:04.320
I was like, Misha's fine.
00:13:04.320 --> 00:13:07.039
So yeah, as you said, we're drawn to Ziggy.
00:13:07.039 --> 00:13:11.679
But I think Misha has the best power because I think she's always on the ball with it.
00:13:11.679 --> 00:13:14.000
Whereas Ziggy's not necessarily always on the ball with it.
00:13:14.000 --> 00:13:14.639
Bless him.
00:13:14.799 --> 00:13:17.759
Yeah, she definitely feels like she's running the show a bit.
00:13:17.759 --> 00:13:25.440
And we need to think about things because in this one, like he'd not twig that with granny and grandad on the trip because they go as a whole big family, don't they?
00:13:25.440 --> 00:13:30.960
In this one, that they wouldn't be able to talk to the animals because they'd be being watched too closely.
00:13:30.960 --> 00:13:34.960
But I love the grandparents in this because they're like, we're not going to babysit.
00:13:35.200 --> 00:13:35.759
I know.
00:13:35.759 --> 00:13:37.360
They're basically my parents.
00:13:37.360 --> 00:13:40.879
My parents' names, and it's basically how they would rally.
00:13:40.879 --> 00:13:45.600
Even the scene where they go to the airport and grandma's over the limit and they're having to repack it.
00:13:45.600 --> 00:13:46.879
That's my mom every trip.
00:13:46.879 --> 00:13:48.879
I don't know what some of it does she know more to nice.
00:13:48.879 --> 00:13:50.159
Yeah, she knows.
00:13:50.159 --> 00:13:50.799
That is her.
00:13:50.799 --> 00:13:55.039
So every reaction they have is exactly how they would react with things.
00:13:55.039 --> 00:14:00.480
They would refuse to babysit and they would be like, We're going to the beach, and we don't know what you're doing all day when we're going to the beach.
00:14:00.480 --> 00:14:01.600
And that's what they would do.
00:14:01.840 --> 00:14:08.240
So you've you've managed the device of getting rid of one of the parents really well in terms of the mother deciding she prefer to be an animal.
00:14:08.240 --> 00:14:09.120
I can get that.
00:14:09.120 --> 00:14:16.559
There'll probably, if there are moments in motherhood where I can definitely see opting out, joining the animal kingdom, would have been a good choice.
00:14:16.559 --> 00:14:20.159
We're left with their dad as a single parent.
00:14:20.159 --> 00:14:27.039
And was that a conscious decision to have a dad as the sort of the main parent in the book?
00:14:27.039 --> 00:14:36.159
Because there aren't many dads who have those positive models or that show that positive relationship in books, and there are even fewer black dads.
00:14:36.399 --> 00:14:39.919
I think I knew I wanted their dad to be a wildlife TV presenter.
00:14:39.919 --> 00:14:45.759
I don't think I thought about the mum until I thought, oh, they can get their power from their mum.
00:14:45.759 --> 00:14:47.600
Oh, maybe their mum could just be an animal.
00:14:47.600 --> 00:14:49.440
And I think that's where it came in.
00:14:49.440 --> 00:14:54.000
And I think on some level, I don't read a lot of books about single dads.
00:14:54.000 --> 00:15:02.559
And I just like the idea of one just being super present, even though he's traveling a lot, he's still very much there when they're there and paying attention.
00:15:02.559 --> 00:15:15.279
And I just like the idea that they trick themselves into coming on his trip, and he just has no idea what his kids can do, and he just thinks it's all him and how amazing his team is, and they get all these animal shots, and he has no idea that it's their children that's getting it together.
00:15:15.279 --> 00:15:21.039
And I thought that was quite funny, but yeah, I don't think on purpose I sat up being like, okay, they're gonna be raised by a single dad.
00:15:21.039 --> 00:15:24.480
No, I just think I just wanted their dad to be the presenter, yeah.
00:15:24.639 --> 00:15:31.440
And it would be much harder for them to get away with what they get away with if there were two parents, you feel true.
00:15:31.600 --> 00:15:32.080
I think so.
00:15:32.080 --> 00:15:43.360
And like in World Fawn Brees, there's like a mum and a dad, and the dad is quite aloof, and the mum is always a dad because I think she films him, but she's always still paying attention to what's going on at home.
00:15:43.360 --> 00:15:52.320
So yeah, the mum is always like still like that, like looking, whereas I think dads aren't necessarily like like he just gets local people to watch his kids.
00:15:52.320 --> 00:15:54.960
Like he's just yeah, they're fine, do you know what I mean?
00:15:55.200 --> 00:15:57.120
I've had an email with them, they seem fine.
00:15:57.679 --> 00:16:00.639
He says, We'll see you at dinner, and he's has no idea where his kids are the whole day.
00:16:00.639 --> 00:16:03.360
And I think it just works well for the book and for the kids, yeah.
00:16:04.159 --> 00:16:07.840
See, we're in Mexico for this one, which is brilliant with sea turtles.
00:16:07.840 --> 00:16:08.720
How did you choose?
00:16:08.720 --> 00:16:10.879
Because there's just three in the series, isn't there?
00:16:10.879 --> 00:16:12.720
I don't think there's a plan to do any more.
00:16:12.720 --> 00:16:17.200
How did you decide the three different places or the three different stories?
00:16:17.600 --> 00:16:22.559
Yeah, so the first one was easy because I wanted to do the whole black lion thing and they they're in Ethiopia.
00:16:22.559 --> 00:16:26.799
And I really loved that they were in Ethiopia because I've never read a book about Ethiopia.
00:16:26.799 --> 00:16:32.559
I actually didn't know anything about Ethiopia, or that I knew so many people who were Ethiopians, that was eye-opening for me.
00:16:32.559 --> 00:16:34.399
So that was really cool doing that one.
00:16:34.399 --> 00:16:44.960
And then the second one, I wanted to do elephants because I feel like everyone loves elephants, and I loved the whole thing with elephants about when an elephant dies, how they mourn them and they go and pay respects.
00:16:44.960 --> 00:16:46.399
I thought that was just so cool.
00:16:46.399 --> 00:16:52.240
The problem with book two is when I said, Oh, yeah, it's mean India, I was like, wait, where do elephants go in India?
00:16:52.240 --> 00:16:55.519
Because I was just thinking of the cities and stuff, and I was like, wait, where are they?
00:16:55.519 --> 00:17:04.400
So that took a bit of research, and there's a herd called the Moniker herd that actually does this route from Kerala to Tamonadu, and that's how I did that one.
00:17:04.400 --> 00:17:07.599
And then the third one, do you know what?
00:17:07.599 --> 00:17:11.200
So the third one I kind of said as a joke, and it just stuck.
00:17:11.200 --> 00:17:14.240
Basically, I just re-watched Finding Nemo.
00:17:14.240 --> 00:17:20.319
I love the Sea Turtles, and I was like, oh my gosh, I should do sea turtles, and my friend had just gone to Metzgo, oh my gosh, she needs Metsco.
00:17:20.319 --> 00:17:26.400
And then I kind of said it, and then after I changed my mind, I was like, Oh, I don't think I want to do sea turtles, I don't want to do it.
00:17:26.400 --> 00:17:29.599
And then SS were just stuck on the sea turtles and they wouldn't let it go.
00:17:29.599 --> 00:17:30.480
And I was like, No, I want to do some.
00:17:30.480 --> 00:17:33.039
I was like, no, no, we really think, and I was like, I don't want to do it.
00:17:33.039 --> 00:17:36.240
I had a black and full fight as pages, obviously I lost.
00:17:36.240 --> 00:17:44.319
And then when I started doing research on it and found out they were like, had been in the dinosaurs and the plastic pollution, I was like, actually, this is actually really fun.
00:17:44.480 --> 00:17:49.759
So yeah, but I kind of said sea turtles because of Nemo, and then I changed my mind, but it was too late.
00:17:50.079 --> 00:17:50.880
Did you get to go?
00:17:50.880 --> 00:17:52.960
Have you been to any of the locations?
00:17:53.200 --> 00:18:00.960
I have not been to any of these locations, but what's been really interesting, especially book two, I had a school tour for Wild Magic.
00:18:00.960 --> 00:18:06.640
So I was with lots of bookshops who were taking me around, and I would mention writing this book in India setting Kerala to Mana do.
00:18:06.640 --> 00:18:09.119
And all of them were like, oh my gosh, we're backpacking around there.
00:18:09.119 --> 00:18:09.920
And I was like, What?
00:18:09.920 --> 00:18:11.519
I'd never even heard of these places.
00:18:11.519 --> 00:18:18.720
So they gave me such good information, and then in my old flat, I was selling one of the girls there, and she was like, Oh, you're from Kerala.
00:18:18.720 --> 00:18:19.599
I was like, What?
00:18:19.599 --> 00:18:21.680
So yeah, it was just so eye-opening.
00:18:21.680 --> 00:18:26.480
So I ended up meeting loads of people from these places I didn't know about, and yeah, they gave me great fat.
00:18:26.480 --> 00:18:27.200
So it was awesome.
00:18:27.200 --> 00:18:33.440
And then my friend literally goes to Mexico every year, so I was like, When you're there, just send me videos and just tell me about your day.
00:18:33.440 --> 00:18:34.640
And she was like, What do you mean?
00:18:34.640 --> 00:18:35.759
I said, Tell me that about the food.
00:18:35.759 --> 00:18:39.599
And she was gonna be like, All right, oh, there's a blue flower here, and she just say random stuff.
00:18:39.599 --> 00:18:42.000
I was like, This helps visually for me, so yeah.
00:18:42.000 --> 00:18:46.480
So and I give her a task, be like, see if you can find this and what does it look like and stuff.
00:18:46.480 --> 00:18:53.359
So between all of these people, I was able to bring it to life in a way that hopefully makes it feel like I've been there.
00:18:53.759 --> 00:18:56.880
Definitely, and the illustrations are a huge part, aren't they?
00:18:56.880 --> 00:18:58.079
From Emma McCann.
00:18:58.400 --> 00:18:58.799
Yeah.
00:18:59.039 --> 00:19:01.359
What's it been like working over the three books?
00:19:01.359 --> 00:19:03.759
How do you work together to put them together?
00:19:04.000 --> 00:19:05.359
Yeah, Emma's awesome.
00:19:05.359 --> 00:19:11.440
So basically, when we signed Wild Magic, I think it got put on pause because of the YA books.
00:19:11.440 --> 00:19:18.000
When we got back onto it, I think the assumption was I wanted a black illustrator, which I actually had never said.
00:19:18.000 --> 00:19:22.160
And I was like, no, I just want someone who is a good illustrator.
00:19:22.160 --> 00:19:27.759
So I found a list of people that had been part of the Divest Book Awards actually, and was looking at all their stuff.
00:19:27.759 --> 00:19:30.480
And I think we got down to three illustrators I really liked.
00:19:30.480 --> 00:19:34.160
Emma was one of them, and Emma was just the most on it, to be honest.
00:19:34.160 --> 00:19:35.200
She was just very quick.
00:19:35.200 --> 00:19:39.920
I love her drawings because I loved Serena Patel's books a lot, and she was just really excited to do it.
00:19:39.920 --> 00:19:41.680
So work with her has been great.
00:19:41.680 --> 00:19:52.160
How it usually works is obviously I write the text and then SNS will pick out the images, and then Emma will draw, sketch of them, and then send them to me.
00:19:52.160 --> 00:19:57.279
Then I'll say whatever I need to say about some of the notes, or I might suggest a different picture.
00:19:57.279 --> 00:19:59.039
And then she does the final design.
00:19:59.039 --> 00:20:00.480
It's quite straightforward, actually.
00:20:00.480 --> 00:20:04.319
And then she sent me a few, she's done two now draw with me videos.
00:20:04.319 --> 00:20:10.000
So one for Gemba the Lion and one for Shreya the Elephant, which I take into schools and they love it.
00:20:10.000 --> 00:20:11.519
And I try and draw it, not great.
00:20:11.519 --> 00:20:12.000
I try.
00:20:12.000 --> 00:20:15.759
It's been really cool working with Emma, and I just think she's just so talented.
00:20:15.759 --> 00:20:19.359
So I really have appreciated that my first chapterbook series was of her.
00:20:19.680 --> 00:20:28.799
So I like this one where I'm showing the picture of where Ziggy's turned into the lion, and there's the look on the real lion's face when Ziggy's there, okay.
00:20:28.799 --> 00:20:34.559
She does eyes really well and eyebrows, they tell the whole story just in the eyes.
00:20:35.119 --> 00:20:41.440
She just brought them to life so perfectly that when they first showed me Sh and Ziggy, I was like, Oh my gosh, that's Mean Sh and Ziggy.
00:20:41.440 --> 00:20:42.319
It was perfect.
00:20:42.319 --> 00:20:45.599
So she definitely was the right person to done this.
00:20:45.920 --> 00:20:58.000
And so you've mentioned the obviously with the turtles, there's a conservation issue with the plastic and poaching with the lions and in Ethiopia and the reduction in the elephant's habitat.
00:20:58.319 --> 00:20:59.440
Yeah, like deforestation.
00:20:59.680 --> 00:21:00.480
Deforestation.
00:21:00.480 --> 00:21:03.759
That is the word I'm looking for in India.
00:21:03.759 --> 00:21:05.920
Was that part of the story that you wanted to tell?
00:21:05.920 --> 00:21:08.880
Well, why did you focus on on particularly on those ones?
00:21:09.200 --> 00:21:10.000
That's a good question.
00:21:10.000 --> 00:21:13.279
I probably watched a documentary and those things have come up.
00:21:13.279 --> 00:21:14.880
That's probably literally what happened.
00:21:14.880 --> 00:21:19.599
I think when I was looking up Black Lions, it came up about poaching a lot.
00:21:19.599 --> 00:21:22.079
How rare they are, how much people keep trying to find them.
00:21:22.079 --> 00:21:23.519
So I was like, okay, let's do poaching.
00:21:23.519 --> 00:21:26.720
I did wonder if poaching was a bit too serious for that age.
00:21:26.720 --> 00:21:33.200
But actually, I think it worked because when I go into schools, the kids all know what poaching is anyway, which I was quite surprised about.
00:21:33.200 --> 00:21:46.400
With the elephants migrating, I think I had seen a documentary of elephants migrating and the calf got stuck in like the mud, and the mud got caused because of some manhole thing.
00:21:46.400 --> 00:21:49.920
It was like a human era basically and the elephant got stuck in and the elephant trying to get out.
00:21:49.920 --> 00:21:52.000
And I was like, gosh, we really do mess everything up for everyone.
00:21:52.000 --> 00:21:55.119
So I wanted to focus on that and the separation.
00:21:55.119 --> 00:21:59.839
And then with the seed hurls and plastic pollution, I was aware of plastic pollution.
00:21:59.839 --> 00:22:00.400
Pollution.
00:22:00.400 --> 00:22:04.480
I don't think I understood how big plastic pollution is.
00:22:04.480 --> 00:22:08.240
And there's there was one area I don't know if I even put in the book.
00:22:08.240 --> 00:22:11.359
And it's just basically known as a place for plastic.
00:22:11.359 --> 00:22:12.880
Yeah, it's shocking actually.
00:22:12.880 --> 00:22:13.920
Yeah.
00:22:13.920 --> 00:22:15.759
And I was just like, oh my gosh.
00:22:15.759 --> 00:22:20.319
And I think it was certain things I found that like I didn't know sea turtles couldn't breathe on the water.
00:22:20.319 --> 00:22:23.359
So I was like, oh my gosh, when they get stuck, they die.
00:22:23.359 --> 00:22:23.599
What?
00:22:23.599 --> 00:22:25.119
And yeah, it was all these things.
00:22:25.119 --> 00:22:27.039
And I got really a bit angry about that.
00:22:27.039 --> 00:22:35.359
So yeah, any way to explain things that we can do, especially for children, like things like respect animals in their space.
00:22:35.359 --> 00:22:37.200
Don't throw things in their thing.
00:22:37.200 --> 00:22:40.160
Don't create hindrances for them because it could affect the babies.
00:22:40.160 --> 00:22:42.400
Just little things that kids can take away from that.
00:22:42.400 --> 00:22:48.559
So they know when they get older, God willing, they'll be better humans and will protect the animals rather than hurt them.
00:22:48.799 --> 00:22:50.480
I think that it's really nicely done as well.
00:22:50.480 --> 00:22:52.400
Because it doesn't feel preachy.
00:22:52.400 --> 00:22:55.279
It doesn't feel like there's a message in this story.
00:22:55.279 --> 00:22:56.960
It's part of the story.
00:22:56.960 --> 00:22:57.359
Yeah.
00:22:57.359 --> 00:22:58.960
And that's quite hard to do actually.
00:22:58.960 --> 00:23:00.799
Oh, yeah.
00:23:00.799 --> 00:23:01.039
Okay.
00:23:01.039 --> 00:23:05.839
We do sometimes get books that are we go, oh, this is what they're telling everybody.
00:23:06.079 --> 00:23:06.880
Oh, okay.
00:23:06.880 --> 00:23:08.559
I'm just trying to show you the magic.
00:23:10.400 --> 00:23:12.000
Yeah, I think the magic is brilliant.
00:23:12.000 --> 00:23:14.240
I think that's what gives it a lighter feel, doesn't it?
00:23:14.240 --> 00:23:16.000
Because that's what the story's all about.
00:23:16.000 --> 00:23:22.480
And this is a big issue, and there is stuff you can do about it, but you're a kid, it's not your responsibility to do this now.
00:23:22.720 --> 00:23:22.960
Yeah.
00:23:22.960 --> 00:23:23.359
Yeah.
00:23:23.359 --> 00:23:29.279
It does give the responsibility to like know about it and try and make good like with the kids in schools.
00:23:29.279 --> 00:23:31.279
I always say to them about the beach.
00:23:31.279 --> 00:23:33.039
When you go to the beach, it's a beautiful day.
00:23:33.039 --> 00:23:35.680
Your mum gives you an ice lolly, you put the wrapper down.
00:23:35.680 --> 00:23:37.119
And guys, I said, What's the problem with the beach?
00:23:37.119 --> 00:23:38.079
They're like, It's really big.
00:23:38.079 --> 00:23:40.160
I said, Yeah, it's big, so you can't find the bin, right?
00:23:40.160 --> 00:23:41.759
So you put the wrapper on the sand.
00:23:41.759 --> 00:23:42.319
What happens?
00:23:42.319 --> 00:23:43.359
They're like, Oh, the wind.
00:23:43.359 --> 00:23:44.160
Where does it go?
00:23:44.160 --> 00:23:44.799
In the water.
00:23:44.799 --> 00:23:45.920
I'm like, so what do we do?
00:23:45.920 --> 00:23:46.799
Put it in the bin.
00:23:46.799 --> 00:23:51.440
So it's this little thing where they understand, oh, okay, if I just do that, then I'm saving the sea turtles.
00:23:51.440 --> 00:23:52.480
I'm like, there you go.
00:23:52.640 --> 00:23:52.799
Yeah.
00:23:52.799 --> 00:23:58.079
And the magic means that you can give the twins more agency and do impossible things.
00:23:58.079 --> 00:24:06.720
It does get that excitement and the focus for them to be able to do it, even if the solutions for the children reading it may be more simple and everyday.
00:24:07.279 --> 00:24:10.319
We can't all like, you know, we can't all have magic powers, sadly.
00:24:10.319 --> 00:24:14.240
Yeah, be pushed up in the air by a dolphin randomly because we can talk to them.
00:24:14.240 --> 00:24:15.680
We can't all do that, unfortunately.
00:24:15.680 --> 00:24:18.880
But you cannot put rubbish in the ocean to keep it off.
00:24:19.920 --> 00:24:25.119
And so this is the first time you've written for the younger readers, aren't they?
00:24:25.119 --> 00:24:26.480
Sort of six and up.
00:24:26.480 --> 00:24:31.200
What was different about doing that age group from middle grade?
00:24:31.440 --> 00:24:33.440
The word count was different.
00:24:33.440 --> 00:24:38.400
I'm used to writing 60,000 words plus, and then this you're like 25.
00:24:38.960 --> 00:24:40.160
Far more words than you needed.
00:24:40.160 --> 00:24:43.680
Or were you going, oh, I don't need very many, and then realizing you needed.
00:24:45.200 --> 00:24:51.599
I actually was not too bad with the word count, maybe because my editor was really on it.
00:24:51.599 --> 00:24:54.319
So I wasn't terrible with the word count.
00:24:54.319 --> 00:24:58.559
I think there were things like there'd be lots of things like, oh, you don't need to explain that, or you don't need to explain this.
00:24:58.559 --> 00:24:59.599
I'd be like, oh, okay.
00:24:59.599 --> 00:25:01.920
And the pace of it is quite quick, which I like.
00:25:01.920 --> 00:25:04.000
You'd have to do a lot of build-up like we did with YA.
00:25:04.000 --> 00:25:06.000
If you have to set everything up, you'd have to redo that.
00:25:06.000 --> 00:25:08.000
You can kind of show you in chapter books.
00:25:08.000 --> 00:25:09.839
And what else do I find difficult?
00:25:09.839 --> 00:25:12.480
I think it was just the research I found just difficult.
00:25:12.480 --> 00:25:16.160
And just explaining things in a way that was simple to children.
00:25:16.160 --> 00:25:24.319
I'm describing like what a coral reef was, just trying to explain it in a way that wasn't super aggressive.
00:25:24.319 --> 00:25:34.480
So yeah, it's more the non-fiction bits of it, trying to simplify it, but still getting across what you're trying to say, but then not patronising and making it too simplistic.
00:25:34.480 --> 00:25:35.200
It's just that.
00:25:35.200 --> 00:25:36.319
Or some words I might use.
00:25:36.319 --> 00:25:38.000
It might be like, oh, this seems a bit too grown.
00:25:38.000 --> 00:25:41.039
I'll be like, oh, is that like I think that's what I found quite challenging.
00:25:41.359 --> 00:25:42.319
You've got three.
00:25:42.559 --> 00:25:43.039
Yes.
00:25:43.359 --> 00:25:44.319
Are there going to be any more?
00:25:44.319 --> 00:25:45.440
Because they've been really popular.
00:25:45.440 --> 00:25:47.839
Or is this a not known yet?
00:25:48.079 --> 00:25:51.200
I've been told this on a break, so I don't really know what that means.
00:25:51.200 --> 00:25:53.680
So I'm taking that as a no.
00:25:53.680 --> 00:25:54.880
That's what I think.
00:25:54.880 --> 00:25:56.559
Would you want to write some more?
00:25:56.559 --> 00:25:58.160
Yeah, I love wild magic.
00:25:58.160 --> 00:25:58.880
It's really fun.
00:25:58.880 --> 00:26:03.279
I'd love to do three maybe like cold countries or something, explore like those animals.
00:26:03.279 --> 00:26:04.559
I think it'd be fun to do.
00:26:04.559 --> 00:26:05.839
There's obviously do more.
00:26:05.839 --> 00:26:12.000
I'm always down to more because I think it has done well as a series, and kids seem to like it a lot, which is really great.
00:26:12.000 --> 00:26:14.960
And also, I learn a lot doing it, which I enjoy.
00:26:14.960 --> 00:26:18.960
Even though I hate all the nonfiction parts, I'm learning a lot, and I do love to learn.
00:26:19.039 --> 00:26:25.759
So, you know, it's like a Do you find yourself dropping those sort of new facts that you've learned into other random conversations?
00:26:26.000 --> 00:26:26.799
Oh, absolutely.
00:26:26.799 --> 00:26:31.200
Also, kids typically think I'm like an animal expert, which is amazing.
00:26:31.200 --> 00:26:34.319
And they'll say things and catch me out, and I get really frustrated.
00:26:34.319 --> 00:26:36.720
There's an animal all kids seem to love at the minute.
00:26:36.720 --> 00:26:38.160
Otters, maybe?
00:26:38.160 --> 00:26:39.279
Not otters.
00:26:39.279 --> 00:26:41.920
It's a very ugly looking thing, but I think it's really cute.
00:26:41.920 --> 00:26:43.279
It's got a really weird name.
00:26:43.279 --> 00:26:46.079
Begins of oh, but they all love this animal.
00:26:46.079 --> 00:26:47.759
So they will ask you questions about it.
00:26:47.759 --> 00:26:49.680
And I'm like, I was like, I don't have never heard of it.
00:26:49.680 --> 00:26:50.880
How have you not heard of it?
00:26:50.880 --> 00:26:55.359
Oh, it's I know about these three animals I've written about in this book.
00:26:55.359 --> 00:26:57.359
So some kids do catch me out.
00:26:57.599 --> 00:26:58.720
What did we learn last week?
00:26:58.720 --> 00:27:03.599
We learned that baby platypuses are called puggles.
00:27:03.599 --> 00:27:04.799
Oh, yes.
00:27:05.119 --> 00:27:07.599
Oh that was cute.
00:27:07.599 --> 00:27:09.039
That is cute.
00:27:09.359 --> 00:27:09.599
Yeah.
00:27:09.839 --> 00:27:10.880
Oh, I love that.
00:27:10.880 --> 00:27:13.279
No, it's not, it's not this animal, the awesome.
00:27:13.279 --> 00:27:14.240
No, it's not that.
00:27:14.240 --> 00:27:14.880
Okay.
00:27:14.880 --> 00:27:16.799
It sounds similar to it.
00:27:16.799 --> 00:27:20.960
But yeah, they all love it and they all think it's really cute, and I don't, so I got like hell for that.
00:27:20.960 --> 00:27:25.680
But kids, they're so fun because kids just love animals and murder, which is really weird.
00:27:26.000 --> 00:27:27.680
Yeah, yeah, weirdly, both those things.
00:27:27.680 --> 00:27:28.400
Both those things.
00:27:28.799 --> 00:27:31.519
So it's been really fun talking to them about this book series.
00:27:31.680 --> 00:27:35.599
I mean, what did you ask as well um about the Marcus Rashford books?
00:27:35.599 --> 00:27:36.720
Because you've done those, haven't you?
00:27:36.880 --> 00:27:41.680
So the Marcus Rashford books are like a spin of Scooby-Doo almost.
00:27:41.680 --> 00:27:48.559
So these kids are part of the Breakfast Club investigators, and every book they're fighting a monster that they think is real.
00:27:48.559 --> 00:27:49.839
It always turns out to not be real.
00:27:49.839 --> 00:27:56.400
And there's always like a really good message in there, like not leaving people out, being kind, like someone was envious and they worked through it.
00:27:56.400 --> 00:27:59.119
There's always some like really little cute message in there.
00:27:59.119 --> 00:28:02.240
So I'm the third co-author on the series.
00:28:02.240 --> 00:28:03.759
I'm the first girl.
00:28:03.759 --> 00:28:07.279
I'm only girl, I think, because the series is coming to an end, I think, in book 10.
00:28:07.279 --> 00:28:10.960
I'm now working on book nine, which is out in October.
00:28:10.960 --> 00:28:13.680
Yeah, and it's a fun series, to be honest with you.
00:28:13.680 --> 00:28:19.279
I think boys love it a lot, obviously, because of Rashford being a footballer.
00:28:19.279 --> 00:28:25.920
But I think there's just quite a lot of positive male energy in the book, and there's monsters and there's an adventure.
00:28:25.920 --> 00:28:29.519
So I think it ticks a lot of boxes for reluctant boy readers.
00:28:29.519 --> 00:28:34.160
The font's big and it also like changed the font on words so it's more, it's more eye-catching to look at.
00:28:34.160 --> 00:28:36.000
There's really fun pictures as well.
00:28:36.000 --> 00:28:39.599
So yeah, I think it's a really fun, cute book to work on.
00:28:39.839 --> 00:28:41.759
So that's quite a tight deadline, is it?
00:28:41.759 --> 00:28:44.400
Turning it round for September, October.
00:28:44.640 --> 00:28:49.359
Yeah, the Rashford deadlines are a little bit insane, they're really tight.
00:28:49.359 --> 00:28:58.160
So this one is out in October, but I found out about because I basically I signed a two-book deal for it and the two books are done.
00:28:58.160 --> 00:29:04.640
And I found out that there was gonna be two more books and they wanted me to do it in March.
00:29:04.640 --> 00:29:07.200
At London Book Fair found out, and I was like, okay, great.
00:29:07.200 --> 00:29:10.960
But then we didn't hear anything back about it until May.
00:29:10.960 --> 00:29:15.039
And then they were like, a month, is that all right?
00:29:15.039 --> 00:29:16.160
And I was like, what?
00:29:16.160 --> 00:29:17.599
The deadlines are tight.
00:29:17.599 --> 00:29:19.599
I think my deadline is next week.
00:29:19.599 --> 00:29:34.160
I think whether we reach it or not, I couldn't tell you because I'm not near the word count, and it's quite difficult working on an existing series, yeah, because the main core are not my characters.
00:29:34.160 --> 00:29:37.920
So when I'm writing it, I'm like, is this how this person would be?
00:29:37.920 --> 00:29:42.160
Or should and sometimes I'm questioning like, are they acting in the way they're meant to be acting?
00:29:42.160 --> 00:29:49.839
But obviously, now there's quite a lot of my own characters in there, and I threw in my brother in there because he's a massive Manchester United fan, and he's one that said, You have to take this deal.
00:29:49.839 --> 00:29:56.160
And I threw my nephew in there who got upset he's six because the character of him in the book doesn't look exactly like him.
00:29:56.160 --> 00:29:57.440
He got upset.
00:29:57.440 --> 00:29:58.319
Can you imagine?
00:29:58.319 --> 00:29:59.279
Just say thank you.
00:30:01.200 --> 00:30:02.799
He'll never be in a book again.
00:30:03.519 --> 00:30:05.119
I was just like, oh, is this all we're doing?
00:30:05.119 --> 00:30:05.440
Okay.
00:30:05.440 --> 00:30:07.920
They are fun books, but the turnaround is very quick.
00:30:07.920 --> 00:30:22.720
But I'm trying to persuade Rashford team that he should do a book signing at Piccadilly for book 10, which will be next year, and just have the whole thing, get all the authors that worked on it and have a whole well done, 10 books done.
00:30:22.720 --> 00:30:24.079
Yeah, that sounds fun.
00:30:24.079 --> 00:30:27.680
That's what I'm trying to do.
00:30:28.160 --> 00:30:32.880
To bring him into the book world, to bring him into the book world rather than to go to the football world.
00:30:33.279 --> 00:30:39.759
I think he did it for book one, so I'm like, he can do it for book ten, but so I'm just praying he has a really good World Cup.
00:30:39.759 --> 00:30:45.599
Yeah, yeah, no issues, no drama, he's a success, and then he'll be like Yeah.
00:30:46.000 --> 00:30:52.400
It would be nice to do one of those events in a bookshop or in a library rather than in a football setting.
00:30:52.400 --> 00:31:05.759
It just feels that actually what you want to do is to bring those kids who are interested, partly maybe initially from the football point of view, but then to bring them into the book world rather than I agree, for sure.
00:31:05.759 --> 00:31:10.319
I don't know, anonymous suite in a football stadium.
00:31:10.559 --> 00:31:13.119
Yeah, I think it'd be going to be a mini tour.
00:31:13.279 --> 00:31:13.519
Yeah.
00:31:13.759 --> 00:31:25.279
Like you did a week, if you had like a week spent, stuck a mini tour, did like a big Piccadilly event, did like an independent bookshop, did a few libraries, did a school, just sort of cute little thing.
00:31:25.279 --> 00:31:26.799
I think that'd be really cool.
00:31:26.799 --> 00:31:29.119
So I'm trying my best to make it happen.
00:31:29.119 --> 00:31:30.720
I'm being very annoying, but we'll see how.
00:31:30.720 --> 00:31:33.119
In the meantime, you've got to write book nine.
00:31:33.119 --> 00:31:33.599
Yeah.
00:31:33.599 --> 00:31:35.039
Yeah, basically.
00:31:35.039 --> 00:31:36.960
Yeah.
00:31:37.200 --> 00:31:43.440
But you'll probably be in a stronger position once you delivered on your deadline for that to persuade them what they should be doing.
00:31:44.880 --> 00:31:46.640
I feel like it's not that hard.
00:31:46.640 --> 00:31:49.599
Everyone should be happy because this is insane.
00:31:49.599 --> 00:31:52.319
The deadlines in particular are actually very quick.
00:31:52.319 --> 00:31:54.240
This one is is just is very quick.
00:31:54.319 --> 00:31:56.480
So it's because it's a national year reading, isn't it?
00:31:56.480 --> 00:31:58.000
They want to get another one out.
00:31:58.240 --> 00:32:00.880
Yeah, oh yeah, I didn't think about that being the reason, actually.
00:32:00.880 --> 00:32:04.160
And that that is that kind of makes it this year.
00:32:04.160 --> 00:32:07.200
It's yeah, so wish me luck, please, ladies.
00:32:07.519 --> 00:32:14.400
And along and alongside that, it says it mentioned on your website you're working your first, we just not adult book, new adult.
00:32:14.400 --> 00:32:15.440
New adult.
00:32:15.440 --> 00:32:18.559
Which is like a made-up one, yeah.
00:32:18.799 --> 00:32:19.599
The made up one.
00:32:19.599 --> 00:32:22.480
I wrote an adult book last year, actually.
00:32:22.480 --> 00:32:23.599
It's about publishing.
00:32:23.599 --> 00:32:24.640
I thought it was hilarious.
00:32:24.640 --> 00:32:26.079
Maybe my age book was hilarious.
00:32:26.079 --> 00:32:30.319
Um, and it got sent out, and then it got the furthest with McMillan.
00:32:30.319 --> 00:32:39.839
It went to acquisitions, but I think they couldn't get sales behind it because they said that they don't think publishing books do great, and they thought like yellow face like a unicorn.
00:32:39.839 --> 00:32:41.920
And I was like, I don't, this isn't my area, I don't know.
00:32:41.920 --> 00:32:50.400
So what happened though with that was McMillan then turned around and was like, let's park that for a second, because we still think could work, could be a timing issue.
00:32:50.400 --> 00:32:51.839
Let's talk about something else.
00:32:51.839 --> 00:33:01.839
So we end up talking about many things, and then that's all they had an idea which they wanted as an adult book, and I tried to make it work, and I was like, I don't think this works as adult, I think this works more as YA.
00:33:01.839 --> 00:33:02.960
They're like, oh, okay, fair.
00:33:02.960 --> 00:33:04.400
What about making this new adult?
00:33:04.400 --> 00:33:06.480
And I was like, what's that we know?
00:33:06.480 --> 00:33:07.279
It's not quite adult.
00:33:07.279 --> 00:33:18.240
I was like, okay, so yeah, so that's out next September, which I have started, but I haven't worked on it for a minute because I've got to work on Rashford, but that's due in September.
00:33:18.240 --> 00:33:19.359
So I need to work on that.
00:33:19.519 --> 00:33:20.960
You're gonna have a busy summer.
00:33:21.200 --> 00:33:27.200
I know, and August is my birthday month, and I tend to not do anything, so an interesting summer.
00:33:27.200 --> 00:33:32.799
But yeah, but because it's all with McMillan, Rashford, and the new adult, and the McMillan team are very chill.
00:33:32.799 --> 00:33:34.480
They just let us know if you need more time.
00:33:34.480 --> 00:33:36.000
They're very relaxed and lovely.
00:33:36.000 --> 00:33:42.160
Yeah, I don't think I'll get in like major trouble, but I also don't want to take advantage and make sure I do my best to get the deadline and stuff.
00:33:42.160 --> 00:33:43.839
I haven't missed a deadline yet, so I don't want to.
00:33:43.839 --> 00:33:44.640
Okay, yeah.
00:33:44.640 --> 00:33:46.160
So I don't know.
00:33:46.640 --> 00:33:52.960
And on top of all of this, so all of the various different books you've been doing and all the rest of it, you are involved in lots of other things.
00:33:52.960 --> 00:33:59.440
So we said at the beginning you co-founded Hashtag Press, which was one of the first diverse publishers.
00:33:59.440 --> 00:34:05.440
You've also co-founded the diverse book awards and the Inc prize.
00:34:05.440 --> 00:34:17.360
When you started out, and I think you said when you started writing the Emily Knight books, you wanted to do that because you wanted to read about a strong black female protagonist because you couldn't find one.
00:34:17.360 --> 00:34:24.239
And obviously, a lot of your other initiatives is about diversifying the publishing space for children's books.
00:34:24.239 --> 00:34:28.800
How much do you think the landscape has changed since you started out on that journey?
00:34:28.800 --> 00:34:31.360
What do you think is going on in that space?
00:34:31.760 --> 00:34:34.719
I think it's changed a lot, if I'm honest.
00:34:34.719 --> 00:34:40.559
I can now very easily find books of black people in the cover, whether that be kids' books or YA.
00:34:40.559 --> 00:34:42.159
It's definitely changed a lot.
00:34:42.159 --> 00:34:44.639
I think the main issue is just momentum.
00:34:44.639 --> 00:34:50.880
I think if you keep thinking of diversity as a trend or a tick box, then you're gonna lose momentum at some point.
00:34:50.880 --> 00:34:59.840
And I think why a lot of authors are getting quite frustrated, even though I think from the outside it can look like they're in a bit more of a privileged position because they have an agent, they're published, and blah, blah, blah.
00:34:59.840 --> 00:35:08.639
But I think we all feel a bit sometimes like you're still having to prove yourself a lot, which is incredibly frustrating.
00:35:08.639 --> 00:35:12.480
Or when things happen, like your series is paused, even though it's popular.
00:35:12.480 --> 00:35:14.880
Things that happen, we just think, what is going on here?
00:35:14.880 --> 00:35:16.880
And it's incredibly frustrating.
00:35:16.880 --> 00:35:25.280
So I don't feel there's as many new voices that I'm seeing coming out from a diverse space as much as there was before.
00:35:25.280 --> 00:35:25.599
Yeah.
00:35:25.599 --> 00:35:29.119
Again, I think the momentum has slowed down, which is not cool.
00:35:29.119 --> 00:35:37.840
And I think that's why something like hashtag is good because you don't have to have an agent to talk to us and we're just basing it just on your book and whether we think it's a good book or not.
00:35:37.840 --> 00:35:42.000
And I think only like one of our authors has an agent, to be fair, out of the 20.
00:35:42.000 --> 00:35:46.800
Yeah, and that's why indies are so important because they give people that opportunity that they wouldn't get otherwise.
00:35:46.800 --> 00:35:50.079
Because you need to get a big five deal, you need to have a really good agent to get that.
00:35:50.079 --> 00:35:52.239
To get a really good agent, it's really difficult to get a good agent.
00:35:52.239 --> 00:35:52.719
Do you know what I mean?
00:35:52.719 --> 00:35:53.840
Because they're so in demand.
00:35:53.840 --> 00:35:55.599
So it's this vicious cycle.
00:35:55.599 --> 00:36:02.320
So if you're then diverse, you're a debut, it's so many things that seem to work against you, which is really unfair.
00:36:02.320 --> 00:36:08.480
And also, I think if you are an established author in a space, you don't want to also become someone's tick box.
00:36:08.480 --> 00:36:08.960
You know what I mean?
00:36:08.960 --> 00:36:10.320
Oh, we're a black author.
00:36:10.320 --> 00:36:11.280
Let's call that Viola.
00:36:11.280 --> 00:36:13.199
You don't want to be that person for anyone.
00:36:13.199 --> 00:36:18.559
You want to be that person they ask because they like your writing, they like you, all for the right reasons.
00:36:18.559 --> 00:36:21.360
So I think that's the problem, is it's gone very static.
00:36:21.360 --> 00:36:25.440
And I just sometimes with publishing, they just always think they've done enough and they've never done enough.
00:36:25.440 --> 00:36:26.639
And I think that's the problem.
00:36:26.639 --> 00:36:28.480
They're very quick to be like, oh, well done, guys.
00:36:28.480 --> 00:36:30.400
And it's like, guys, you did the bare minimum.
00:36:30.400 --> 00:36:34.000
Let's try and advance it, not either keep the same energy or go down.
00:36:34.000 --> 00:36:40.000
There's just not enough diverse people in publishing houses in-house, and that's that's that's the biggest problem, isn't it?
00:36:40.000 --> 00:36:43.039
I know from my end, my editor left to go to Penguin.
00:36:43.039 --> 00:36:45.760
My ever editor got made redundant.
00:36:45.760 --> 00:36:48.559
You know, it's just the spaces aren't great.
00:36:48.559 --> 00:36:54.400
I did find out that my original editor for Rashford is now moving to S and she's fantastic.
00:36:54.400 --> 00:36:59.599
So I'm hoping that they'll allow her to get some really amazing books because she's a really good editor and really lovely.
00:36:59.599 --> 00:37:03.519
But yeah, if you have people know spaces, then it's not helping to find the voices, isn't it?
00:37:03.599 --> 00:37:07.679
And it's a vicious cycle, and then it's so boring, I think, at some point.
00:37:07.840 --> 00:37:09.840
And you shouldn't, it shouldn't be about that, should it?
00:37:09.840 --> 00:37:12.719
It should be about the story and the book that you want to write.
00:37:12.960 --> 00:37:14.960
And you can feel when you're someone's tick box.
00:37:14.960 --> 00:37:20.639
And also, and this is the main thing I think authors who are already out get annoyed about is the marketing publicity.
00:37:20.639 --> 00:37:21.360
It's just nothing.
00:37:21.360 --> 00:37:22.639
They don't do anything with your book.
00:37:22.639 --> 00:37:23.760
So then you think, well, what's the point?
00:37:23.760 --> 00:37:31.039
We talk about this type of book, and then they don't do anything, and then you see what they do for others, and you just think, why is it not an even playing field here?
00:37:31.039 --> 00:37:32.960
No, I don't have the answers for that one.
00:37:32.960 --> 00:37:35.679
I'm quite good at just going to a different publishing house.
00:37:35.679 --> 00:37:37.119
I'm quite good at just moving along.
00:37:37.119 --> 00:37:40.559
But I have a really good agent, so you know that helps.
00:37:40.559 --> 00:37:46.000
I think if you don't have a good agent or one that will back you and fight with you, it must be very difficult.
00:37:46.159 --> 00:37:46.639
Yeah.
00:37:46.960 --> 00:37:47.440
Very difficult.
00:37:47.760 --> 00:37:51.119
So hashtag is celebrating 10 years this year.
00:37:51.119 --> 00:37:52.800
Do you want to say a bit about that?
00:37:53.119 --> 00:37:56.559
Yeah, so we are 10 years old, which is crazy.
00:37:56.559 --> 00:37:58.639
I can't believe that it almost seems fake.
00:37:58.639 --> 00:38:05.840
So 10 years old, and we've got kids' books and middle grade and YA and a small nonfiction list.
00:38:05.840 --> 00:38:09.840
And we're all about diversity and debuts and inclusivity.
00:38:09.840 --> 00:38:12.159
And yeah, it's been a fun ride.
00:38:12.159 --> 00:38:21.519
It's been a hard ride, but it's been fun and just giving those opportunities to these authors who I don't think would have gotten those opportunities because of the way publishing is structured.
00:38:21.519 --> 00:38:22.480
And it's been really cool.
00:38:22.480 --> 00:38:28.239
And I really love when we find a new voice and we're able to publish them and debut them, it's so cool.
00:38:28.239 --> 00:38:31.760
But yeah, hashtag's definitely one of the hardest things I've ever done in my life.
00:38:31.760 --> 00:38:37.280
And yeah, now we're in a crowdfunding stage, which wasn't a light decision.
00:38:37.280 --> 00:38:40.960
I think me and Helen are both very private people.
00:38:40.960 --> 00:38:44.320
We just put our head down and crack on, and we don't like to ask for help.
00:38:44.320 --> 00:38:49.679
And I think it got to a point where we had done a lot for hashtag, and we're like, we I think maybe we need some help.
00:38:49.679 --> 00:38:52.559
And actually, telling people we needed help has helped us more.
00:38:52.559 --> 00:38:56.000
A lot of companies have reached out to be like, oh, we'll help you with this, help you with that.
00:38:56.000 --> 00:38:58.719
And then financially, we did need help.
00:38:58.719 --> 00:39:01.519
When you survive COVID as a small press, it's amazing.
00:39:01.519 --> 00:39:04.880
At some point, that kind of catches up with you a little bit, I think.
00:39:04.880 --> 00:39:11.840
I think we're at that stage where it's caught up, and we've seen lots of small presses close around the 10-year mark, which is very scary.
00:39:11.840 --> 00:39:14.480
And we're hoping that won't be us.
00:39:14.480 --> 00:39:17.199
So, God willing, we'll have a great crowdfunder.
00:39:17.199 --> 00:39:18.880
We won't be doing another one.
00:39:18.880 --> 00:39:20.239
This is one and done.
00:39:20.239 --> 00:39:23.840
And we will hopefully be celebrating the next 20 years, God willing.
00:39:23.840 --> 00:39:24.719
Exciting.
00:39:24.960 --> 00:39:27.920
And we'll put all the links to how people can get involved with that.
00:39:27.920 --> 00:39:28.800
Thank you.
00:39:29.199 --> 00:39:31.039
It is the national year of reading.
00:39:31.039 --> 00:39:37.519
You've obviously done those in terms of trying to change the world of publishing for children.
00:39:37.519 --> 00:39:42.800
What do you really hope for in terms of what comes out of the national year of reading?
00:39:42.800 --> 00:39:43.840
What are your hopes for it?
00:39:44.079 --> 00:39:52.000
What I would hope with the national year of reading is that we keep up the momentum.
00:39:52.000 --> 00:39:58.400
Again, let's not be a tick-box exercise and be like, okay, just this year we'll put in all this effort.
00:39:58.400 --> 00:39:59.920
This needs to continue.
00:39:59.920 --> 00:40:05.440
Because as much as they keep saying kids aren't reading and I go to loads of school visits.
00:40:05.440 --> 00:40:06.800
Kids are reading.
00:40:06.800 --> 00:40:08.320
Boys are reading.
00:40:08.320 --> 00:40:12.159
Boys have said the reason why they like comic books is because they like to look at pictures.
00:40:12.159 --> 00:40:15.039
And as books get older, there's no pictures and they don't like it.
00:40:15.039 --> 00:40:16.159
They've very much said it.
00:40:16.159 --> 00:40:18.800
I don't know who's going to change that, but they have said that.
00:40:18.800 --> 00:40:22.400
So kids are reading and are very involved and interested and stuff.
00:40:22.400 --> 00:40:26.559
So I don't really believe that is necessarily the problem.
00:40:26.559 --> 00:40:31.840
I think the problem I'm seeing is a lot of kids aren't seeing a lot of themselves reflected.
00:40:31.840 --> 00:40:33.679
And that's the biggest issue.
00:40:33.679 --> 00:40:38.960
A lot of these libraries in schools are so diverse, like their shelves are brilliant.
00:40:38.960 --> 00:40:43.440
The librarians are really doing the work, they are fantastic.
00:40:43.440 --> 00:40:48.960
I think they need way more support, like consistent support to keep growing.
00:40:48.960 --> 00:40:55.280
Publishers need to keep giving them more books, sending more authors to their schools because they are doing the work and the kids are fantastic.
00:40:55.280 --> 00:40:57.119
So I don't think that's the problem.
00:40:57.119 --> 00:41:00.159
I honestly think it's just a consistency issue.
00:41:00.159 --> 00:41:04.320
It's the people that they want to push to be the face or something.
00:41:04.320 --> 00:41:09.920
And I feel like diversity is important because this one face can't represent everyone.
00:41:09.920 --> 00:41:17.280
You need to have different people for different walks of life, different ages, different races, different backgrounds, because someone's going to relate to them in some way.
00:41:17.280 --> 00:41:22.719
But you can't keep throwing the same blonde in front of everyone and thinking everyone's going to relate.
00:41:22.719 --> 00:41:23.760
You can't keep doing that.
00:41:23.760 --> 00:41:27.039
And I don't know how many times publishing needs to be told that, like at some point.
00:41:27.039 --> 00:41:34.559
So I think they just need to keep the momentum going and all these great opportunities and incentives they've been doing, they need to keep up.
00:41:34.559 --> 00:41:35.599
That should be a regular thing.
00:41:35.599 --> 00:41:37.360
It shouldn't be just for this year.
00:41:37.360 --> 00:41:43.519
I know there's been lots of people complaining about the rollout, the national year of reading, not being super clear of what they're doing.
00:41:43.519 --> 00:41:46.320
I definitely know they didn't send stuff to small presses.
00:41:46.320 --> 00:41:50.960
There's like these, they sent lots of visuals and PDFs and stuff at the beginning of the year.
00:41:50.960 --> 00:41:55.840
I wish I got sent because of SNS, but I know as hashtag, we didn't get sent it.
00:41:55.840 --> 00:41:58.159
So it's who are you involving in this campaign?
00:41:58.159 --> 00:42:02.320
You can't involve a select few and ignore everyone if it's a national year of reading.
00:42:02.320 --> 00:42:06.960
So again, I think it's always just getting the right people in the right spaces in the right rooms.
00:42:06.960 --> 00:42:10.159
And I think with publishing, it's just not that unfortunately.
00:42:10.159 --> 00:42:15.039
I'm sure there should be someone in the room to say, should we not send this to every single publishing house in the country?
00:42:15.280 --> 00:42:15.599
Yeah.
00:42:15.760 --> 00:42:16.559
Like, how is that not?
00:42:16.559 --> 00:42:18.239
How is that something we have to think about?
00:42:18.239 --> 00:42:21.519
So some like this question, like, who is in the room making these decisions?
00:42:21.519 --> 00:42:25.519
I saw some people who were like the face of like national year of reading.
00:42:25.519 --> 00:42:27.679
And I was just like, isn't this for kids?
00:42:27.679 --> 00:42:31.280
Why is this person like it just wasn't making sense some of the people they chose?
00:42:31.280 --> 00:42:37.599
If it's for children, like why would you not ask Marcus Rashford to do national year of reading?
00:42:37.599 --> 00:42:39.280
Why wouldn't you ask Robin Stevens?
00:42:39.280 --> 00:42:45.280
Every school I go into, there is a mad Robin Stevens fan in there, like mental Robin Stevens, every school I've gone to.
00:42:45.280 --> 00:42:47.119
I was at Robin, I didn't know you were this popular.
00:42:47.119 --> 00:42:47.920
It's crazy.
00:42:47.920 --> 00:42:49.119
Why would you not have her?
00:42:49.119 --> 00:42:50.159
That's crazy to me.
00:42:50.159 --> 00:42:56.480
So sometimes I just think who's in the room thinking of these names and not understanding kids, or maybe go and ask the kids.
00:42:56.480 --> 00:42:59.119
Who would you like to just ask the kids what they want?
00:42:59.119 --> 00:43:00.079
They'll tell you.
00:43:00.079 --> 00:43:01.440
That's what I just hope.
00:43:01.440 --> 00:43:10.239
They can really listen to what they did wrong, fix it, but keep the same momentum and energy going for years to come and not just burn out once it gets to December and decide I've done enough.
00:43:10.559 --> 00:43:11.840
Yeah, I think that's what we think.
00:43:11.840 --> 00:43:14.559
It's like the start of something, not the thing.
00:43:14.800 --> 00:43:18.159
But the authors on the ground, librarians, they're just getting done with it.
00:43:18.719 --> 00:43:20.880
But they do it year in, year out.
00:43:20.880 --> 00:43:22.960
I'm gonna say thank you very much.
00:43:22.960 --> 00:43:28.000
It's been great to listen to you, and we look forward to the Marcus Reshre.
00:43:28.000 --> 00:43:29.519
And the new adult book.
00:43:29.519 --> 00:43:30.719
The new adult book.
00:43:30.719 --> 00:43:31.760
New adult, me too.
00:43:31.760 --> 00:43:35.440
You've hit hitting all of those deadlines, and we look forward to those.
00:43:35.440 --> 00:43:36.800
So thank you very much.