The Death Companion (ZHOU Yan, Hospice and ’Death Café’ Volunteer)

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[Trailer]
OF: This is the second question you've answered
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which includes toilets.
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ZY: This is very important.
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Yeah.
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OF: Hey, you're very practical.
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Let's talk about death… and ****.
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[Intro]
OF: Welcome to Mosaic of China, a podcast
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about people who are making their mark in
China.
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I’m your host, Oscar Fuchs.
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In case you’re wondering about my voice,
I’ve got COVID-19.
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Luckily I’d done most of the work for this
episode before getting sick, so I’m going
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to release it now and then go on a break for
a few weeks.
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Today’s episode is with Zhou Yan, a Chinese
lady.
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But there’s an immediate connection with
the guest from the last episode - the commercial
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airline pilot Michael Hundegger from Austria
- because Zhou Yan also spent many years in
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Austria before returning to China.
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I mention this because she has a really nice
way of sometimes using a German figure of
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speech rather than an English one.
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So listen out for when she says things like
‘Buddhismus’ instead of Buddhism, ‘Papier’
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instead of paper, ‘history’ instead of
‘story’.
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It’s very subtle, but it’s one of those
things that I love picking up on when speaking
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with someone whose background includes a real
mix of cultures.
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Speaking of past episodes, one of my favourites
was the one with Louise Roy from Season 02
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Episode 06 where we talked about the way China
handles childbirth.
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Well today’s episode is about the other
side of that story, the process of dying.
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The subject matter gets quite personal at
times, so I just wanted to warn you to please
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proceed with caution if you’re in a sensitive
headspace right now.
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Let me also tell you right from the start
that my original conversation with Zhou Yan
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was really really long, there’s actually
almost 30 minutes of bonus content in this
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week’s PREMIUM version of the show.
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So if you already know that this is a topic
that you’re interested in, save yourself
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some time, head to mosaicofchina.com and immediately
subscribe to that version so that you can
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listen to our conversation in full.
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And finally, this is one of those episodes
which justifies the format of the show, because
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it allows us to have quite a serious tone
in Part 1 but we can then switch to a completely
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different tone in Part 2.
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So if you’re at any point thinking that
the conversation is getting a little heavy,
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hang in there!
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And I mean hang in right until the end, because
we also have two excellent catch-ups with
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previous guests of the show, both of whom
are also definitely worth listening into.
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So let me shut up and let’s finally get
started.
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[Part 1]
OF: Thank you so much for coming today.
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ZY: You’re welcome.
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OF: I haven't said your name yet because I'm
always nervous about tones.
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So ‘Zhou Yan’, but how do you say it with
the tones?
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ZY: 周燕 [Zhōu Yàn].
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OF: 周燕 [Zhōu Yàn], so it’s 1st tone,
4th zone.
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ZY: Yeah
OF: 周燕 [Zhōu Yàn], OK.
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The first thing I will ask you is, what object
did you bring that in some way describes your
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life in China?
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ZY: I thought long about it.
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And then finally, my decision is my phone.
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My cellphone?
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OF: Oh.
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ZY: Yes.
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OF: OK.
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I must say this is not the first time someone
has brought their phone.
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So I'm a little bit disappointed.
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ZY: Mm-hm.
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OF: But telling me the reason.
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ZY: OK, my reason was that the smartphone
has changed my life so dramatically.
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I came back to Shanghai at the beginning of
2014…
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OF: When you say “Came back,” where were
you?
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ZY: From Austria.
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And at that time, I think I had no more than
20 WeChat contacts.
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And now I have over 2,000.
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OF: Mmm.
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ZY: Actually, I hate it, that WeChat totally
changed the way how I work.
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I really miss the time when we only had phone
and emails.
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OF: Mmm.
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ZY: I found out that I might have…
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I don't know how to pronounce the word, but
I can't see how to just distances.
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This ability is reduced.
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OF: Ah.
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It’s damaging your eyesight, you mean?
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ZY: Yes.
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I really would like to have a job where I
don't have to check my phone all day.
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OF: Yeah.
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ZY: Yeah.
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But I don't know if it's possible to have
it in Shanghai.
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OF: It's interesting.
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You've chosen the object that defines your
life, but in a bad way, right?
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ZY: In a bad way, yeah.
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But maybe I will say “Bye bye”, and just
check my phone once in the evenings then.
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OF: If I asked you what it is that we were
going to talk about, how would you describe
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our topic of conversation?
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ZY: It’s that I’ve decided to engage as
a volunteer in hospice service for the last
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three years.
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OF: Right.
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And this is particularly interesting, because
the way that China and the Chinese deal with
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death, in some ways it's very similar to anywhere
else in the world.
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And in other ways, it's a little bit heightened,
there's a little bit more of a stigma.
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ZY: Yes.
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OF: So I'm extremely interested to talk about
this with you.
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ZY: OK.
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OF: So tell me about the organisation that
you volunteer for.
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ZY: OK, in Chinese it's called like ‘Hand
in Hand’: ‘手牵手 [Shǒuqiānshǒu]’
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OF: 手牵手 [Shǒuqiānshǒu].
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ZY: Yeah.
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It was already founded in 2008.
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I think they are one of the very first NGOs
in China who started to do this.
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OF: Where were you at that time?
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ZY: I was still in Austria.
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OF: Oh, so you lived in Austria for a long
time?
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ZY: For a long time.
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Like, almost 12 years.
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OF: Well I want to find out the story about
how you got from Austria to what you're doing
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now.
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But let's jump forward for now.
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ZY: Yeah.
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OF: And let's talk about what it is that the
organisation does.
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ZY: They do basically two things.
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First of all, they train volunteers like me
and then send us to hospices, where we know
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that the only patients allowed to be there
are those who will not live for more than
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six months.
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OF: Right, yes.
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And do they know that?
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ZY: Not always.
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Because in China, many families tend to ask
the doctors “Ah, don't tell him (or her)
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the truth, he will be so frightened.
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So it's better that he doesn’t know that.”
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OF: Mmm.
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And what is this hospice?
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This is a separate institution from a hospital?
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ZY: It's usually in a hospital.
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OF: Yes.
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ZY: But it's usually then also a separate
part.
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For example, half of a floor.
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Or even the whole floor, if the hospital supports
that.
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In most hospices, very basic services are
provided.
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Because hospice rooms here in Shanghai are
in the very basic-level hospitals.
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Hospitals in Shanghai are divided into three
levels.
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First are the community hospitals; the second
level is the district hospitals; and the third
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level is city hospitals.
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And most of the hospice rooms are located
in the community hospitals.
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OF: Which is the lowest level.
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ZY: The lowest level.
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OF: OK.
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ZY: Yeah.
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OF: How then do you get involved?
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Do you contact them, or do they contact you?
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ZY: So usually the standard process is that
a hospital will contact our organisation and
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say “We would like to have a volunteer team”.
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Then our NGO will start to look for people.
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They usually do training twice or three times
per year, so people can just register for
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the training.
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And then after the training, we will just
go to the hospice, and as volunteers we go
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there once a week.
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And there we will just have an internal discussion,
to talk about the things that happened over
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the last week.
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And then we will go into the rooms, and go
around and find our patients.
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Sometimes ones that you will stay with for
several weeks; sometimes it's just random,
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or just a feeling: who you feel that you would
like to stay nearby, to him or to her.
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OF: Can you give me some examples of when
you have dealt with an individual?
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ZY: Old people here in China, they are not
used to showing their emotions or talking
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about their feelings.
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They are usually only taking care of the very
physical things, like getting you something
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to eat, or “Do you need water?”, things
like that.
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OF: Yes.
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That's how they express love to each other,
right?
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ZY: Yes.
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So when we are there, usually we will try
to help them to recall what they have done
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when they were young; anything that they have
achieved; any good times they have had; things
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like that.
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To find…
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Not to find, but to see the meaning of their
life.
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OF: Mmm.
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ZY: Which has been always there, but they
were not able to see it.
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One example was a patient, who was a very
special one.
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He just talked very aggressively to everyone,
even to his wife.
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It was always, like, blaming you.
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OF: Mmm.
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ZY: So another volunteer kept on talking with
him, that he should express his feelings in
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the right way to his wife.
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And of course, this took some time.
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And then one day as his wife came to his bed
again, he said “I'm sorry”.
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He just said this one sentence.
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And usually his wife sat distant to the bed.
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But when she heard this sentence, she was
shocked at the beginning, and then started
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to cry.
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And then since then every time she came again,
she started to sit next to him on the bed.
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OF: Mmm.
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ZY: Yeah.
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OF: So what you can do then is to bridge this
communication between people.
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So it's not just you and the patient, but
you're creating an atmosphere where the patient
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and their family can talk openly.
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ZY: Yeah.
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Because in hospice we have a ‘value’,
I don't know how we should call that.
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But usually we believe there are five things
you should do.
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To say “Love”; to say “Sorry”; to
say “I forgive you”; to say "Thank you”.
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And the last thing is - if you have done the
first four things all very well - the last
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thing is to say “Goodbye”.
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OF: Yeah.
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ZY: And it won't be that difficult then.
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OF: Mmm.
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ZY: That's what we are usually trying to help
our patients to do.
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OF: So when you meet someone, you can - in
your mind - see which stage they're at?
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ZY: No no no, it's not fixed in this order.
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And maybe it's also not necessary for people
to do all of this.
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OF: Mmm.
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ZY: Maybe sometimes only one or two of them
is already enough.
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OF: And then you said that when you joined
this NGO you got training.
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So this is the training that you received?
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ZY: Yes.
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They don't think they are just training volunteers
for hospice work.
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They believe this is also the chance for me
to be a better me.
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It's not just focused on details.
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Our founders will always help us to see the
whole thing, and ask me to think about “Why
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was this a problem?” or “Why this happened?”
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Because it’s usually because of me, something
internal here.
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OF: Mmm.
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ZY: And only when we see the origin where
the problems were made, then you can deal
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with the whole thing much better.
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OF: Well let's jump to that topic, then.
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Because this is one of the questions that
I wanted to ask you, which is why you do this.
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Why do you volunteer to be around dying people?
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ZY: Well, I've been asked this question several
times.
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I have an official answer, and an unofficial
answer.
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OF: Good.
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Give me the official one first.
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ZY: OK.
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The official answer first is that I always
like to work as a volunteer.
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Which is true, since I was a little girl I
always liked to do that, to help people.
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This ‘service’ character, you know, I
like to help people.
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Shanghai is actually a very great city, where
you can always find enough people for general
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volunteer service.
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OF: Oh.
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ZY: So I thought then “Well there must be
some area which are maybe more difficult,
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and which cannot find that many people”.
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So I came to the idea of hospice work.
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OF: OK.
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ZY: Yeah.
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OF: Official answer complete.
234
00:12:20,300 --> 00:12:21,790
What about the real answer, then?
235
00:12:21,790 --> 00:12:28,060
ZY: The real answer is just a real for this
moment, it can be changed in the next few
236
00:12:28,060 --> 00:12:29,060
years again.
237
00:12:29,060 --> 00:12:34,050
The real answer is that since I've started
to do this - at first it was hospices, and
238
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after that it was the Death Café, which we'll
talk about later - I came to the reality that
239
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I personally got much more from this volunteer
service than I can do for others, actually.
240
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OF: Mmm.
241
00:12:48,800 --> 00:12:54,390
ZY: In the first year when I started to hospice
work, one very obvious change is that I started
242
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to see my family.
243
00:12:55,890 --> 00:12:58,440
I mean ‘see’ my family.
244
00:12:58,440 --> 00:13:02,440
Family for me used to be like water for fish.
245
00:13:02,440 --> 00:13:03,440
OF: Right.
246
00:13:03,440 --> 00:13:04,670
ZY: They are just here.
247
00:13:04,670 --> 00:13:07,570
Well, it doesn't mean that we don't have a
good relationship.
248
00:13:07,570 --> 00:13:08,770
We have.
249
00:13:08,770 --> 00:13:14,220
What it really means when I started to ‘see’
them is, for example, I started to realise
250
00:13:14,220 --> 00:13:19,190
that my grandmas and grandpas will not be
there some day.
251
00:13:19,190 --> 00:13:20,190
OF: Yeah.
252
00:13:20,190 --> 00:13:23,130
ZY: In the past I just went there, you know,
like ‘doing my job’.
253
00:13:23,130 --> 00:13:27,630
Like once a month, to visit them, to have
a lunch with them, that was all.
254
00:13:27,630 --> 00:13:31,600
And then after I started to do hospice work,
I thought "What can I do for them?
255
00:13:31,600 --> 00:13:34,290
And what do they really want to have?"
256
00:13:34,290 --> 00:13:39,380
For example I found out that my grandma always
wanted to see a panda in reality…
257
00:13:39,380 --> 00:13:40,380
OF: Right.
258
00:13:40,380 --> 00:13:42,520
ZY …Because she only saw them on television
before.
259
00:13:42,520 --> 00:13:43,520
OF: Oh.
260
00:13:43,520 --> 00:13:46,490
ZY: And she was already over ninety, and she
couldn’t really walk very far.
261
00:13:46,490 --> 00:13:53,200
So I took a day off from work, and took my
grandparents to the Shanghai Zoo, and my grandma
262
00:13:53,200 --> 00:13:56,180
really saw a panda for the first time in her
life.
263
00:13:56,180 --> 00:13:57,180
OF: Wow.
264
00:13:57,180 --> 00:13:58,180
ZY: Things like that.
265
00:13:58,180 --> 00:14:00,560
Then with my grandpa to the cinema, yeah.
266
00:14:00,560 --> 00:14:02,279
OF: It's very lucky.
267
00:14:02,279 --> 00:14:06,560
Because a lot of us, we lose our grandparents
before we have the chance to really ‘see’
268
00:14:06,560 --> 00:14:07,560
them.
269
00:14:07,560 --> 00:14:08,560
ZY: Yeah.
270
00:14:08,560 --> 00:14:12,880
OF: And does that also translate to your relationship
with your parents too?
271
00:14:12,880 --> 00:14:14,639
ZY: Yes.
272
00:14:14,639 --> 00:14:17,450
We used to quarrel a lot.
273
00:14:17,450 --> 00:14:23,589
We have a very good relationship, but since
I was a kid the way we communicated was shouting
274
00:14:23,589 --> 00:14:27,670
to each other, and not really talking peacefully.
275
00:14:27,670 --> 00:14:31,470
Because this was actually the way they were
talking to each other, I just learned it from
276
00:14:31,470 --> 00:14:32,470
them.
277
00:14:32,470 --> 00:14:33,470
OF: Ah.
278
00:14:33,470 --> 00:14:34,470
ZY: But I started to change.
279
00:14:34,470 --> 00:14:40,990
Because one thing is very clear for me: the
best work of one's life can just be oneself.
280
00:14:40,990 --> 00:14:42,260
So I started to change myself.
281
00:14:42,260 --> 00:14:43,260
OF: Ah.
282
00:14:43,260 --> 00:14:47,860
ZY: And then - maybe one or two years later
- I started to see that they were also starting
283
00:14:47,860 --> 00:14:49,509
to change the way they talk to each other.
284
00:14:49,509 --> 00:14:50,509
OF: Mmm.
285
00:14:50,509 --> 00:14:51,509
ZY: Yeah.
286
00:14:51,509 --> 00:14:54,190
If you go into the street and ask people “Hey
do you know that we will die someday?”
287
00:14:54,190 --> 00:14:55,390
they will think “Are you crazy?
288
00:14:55,390 --> 00:14:56,710
Of course, I know”.
289
00:14:56,710 --> 00:15:01,699
But most people know it like ‘1+1=2’.
290
00:15:01,699 --> 00:15:05,589
They are not really taking this into their
life, and into the decisions.
291
00:15:05,589 --> 00:15:12,470
And I just don't want it that maybe I left
my parents’ apartment this morning, and
292
00:15:12,470 --> 00:15:16,720
we have just quarrelled with each other again,
and then maybe an accident happens to me.
293
00:15:16,720 --> 00:15:19,380
And that was the last conversation we had
with each other.
294
00:15:19,380 --> 00:15:20,380
OF: Yes.
295
00:15:20,380 --> 00:15:22,170
ZY: Then it will be a bad farewell.
296
00:15:22,170 --> 00:15:23,170
Yeah.
297
00:15:23,170 --> 00:15:24,170
OF: Yes.
298
00:15:24,170 --> 00:15:28,670
I can definitely see how that would make you
live more intentionally every day.
299
00:15:28,670 --> 00:15:33,350
ZY: Yes, more aware of the life that I'm having.
300
00:15:33,350 --> 00:15:35,720
OF: You've mentioned the Death Café.
301
00:15:35,720 --> 00:15:39,029
This is separate from your job in the hospital
itself.
302
00:15:39,029 --> 00:15:40,029
Can you explain that?
303
00:15:40,029 --> 00:15:45,330
ZY: The Death Café is actually a second very
important part of what the NGO is doing.
304
00:15:45,330 --> 00:15:46,330
OF: Right.
305
00:15:46,330 --> 00:15:49,459
ZY: And the Death Café actually originates
from England.
306
00:15:49,459 --> 00:15:51,660
OF: OK, so what is the concept?
307
00:15:51,660 --> 00:15:54,040
ZY: Bernard Crettaz is his name.
308
00:15:54,040 --> 00:15:59,649
So he first came up with this idea, because
death is the only thing which will happen
309
00:15:59,649 --> 00:16:03,410
in our life with 100% certainty.
310
00:16:03,410 --> 00:16:07,820
But we don't take so much time to look into
this topic, and to talk about it, and to get
311
00:16:07,820 --> 00:16:09,430
ready for it.
312
00:16:09,430 --> 00:16:13,190
So he first came up with this idea, and it
stayed on paper only.
313
00:16:13,190 --> 00:16:18,310
Jon Underwood, he first held a Death Café
according to this idea, and he also got some
314
00:16:18,310 --> 00:16:21,660
support from Professor Bernard Crettaz.
315
00:16:21,660 --> 00:16:25,300
He first had this Death Café, I think, in
2011 in London.
316
00:16:25,300 --> 00:16:29,399
It took him one year to prepare the Death
Café.
317
00:16:29,399 --> 00:16:31,540
And do you know why it took him so long?
318
00:16:31,540 --> 00:16:32,540
OF: No.
319
00:16:32,540 --> 00:16:33,540
ZY: He couldn’t find a place.
320
00:16:33,540 --> 00:16:34,730
OF: Ah yeah.
321
00:16:34,730 --> 00:16:39,610
ZY: He was not able to find a café that was
willing to have this kind of talk.
322
00:16:39,610 --> 00:16:45,459
So he held the first death café in the world
in his mother's house, in the basement.
323
00:16:45,459 --> 00:16:47,040
OF: How funny.
324
00:16:47,040 --> 00:16:49,699
So it's called ‘Death Café’, but it doesn't
have to be a café.
325
00:16:49,699 --> 00:16:55,290
ZY: Yeah, it's important that you have coffee
or tea, just make yourself comfortable and
326
00:16:55,290 --> 00:16:56,290
relax.
327
00:16:56,290 --> 00:16:57,290
And let's talk about death.
328
00:16:57,290 --> 00:16:58,290
OF: I see.
329
00:16:58,290 --> 00:16:59,290
ZY: Yeah.
330
00:16:59,290 --> 00:17:01,269
OF: OK so what happens in this death cafe?
331
00:17:01,269 --> 00:17:03,680
You, for example, are you one of the leaders?
332
00:17:03,680 --> 00:17:04,959
ZY: Yes.
333
00:17:04,959 --> 00:17:10,890
I think currently we are already over 600
people in over 50 cities in China.
334
00:17:10,890 --> 00:17:11,890
OF: Oh wow, yeah.
335
00:17:11,890 --> 00:17:12,890
ZY: Yeah.
336
00:17:12,890 --> 00:17:13,890
But it's totally volunteer-based.
337
00:17:13,890 --> 00:17:17,760
So it doesn't happen regularly, it’s only
when I have time, and when I feel like it.
338
00:17:17,760 --> 00:17:18,990
Then I will organise it.
339
00:17:18,990 --> 00:17:23,339
And it's actually just a relaxing afternoon
tea, but we still have some certain principles.
340
00:17:23,339 --> 00:17:27,370
So first of all, the topic should be focused
on death.
341
00:17:27,370 --> 00:17:31,820
Second of all, we should have respect and
listen to others.
342
00:17:31,820 --> 00:17:36,260
Because I think in China, people judge a lot.
343
00:17:36,260 --> 00:17:37,260
OF: Mmm.
344
00:17:37,260 --> 00:17:41,600
ZY: So we try not to judge others, just listen
to what they are saying.
345
00:17:41,600 --> 00:17:43,510
Because death is very personal.
346
00:17:43,510 --> 00:17:47,400
You cannot say “I don't agree”, and “You
should think like that”.
347
00:17:47,400 --> 00:17:48,900
So we don't do that.
348
00:17:48,900 --> 00:17:53,230
And if you share your stories, maybe it's
connected with some religious things.
349
00:17:53,230 --> 00:17:56,510
This is OK, but don't make it, you know…
350
00:17:56,510 --> 00:17:57,770
OF: Pushing on others.
351
00:17:57,770 --> 00:17:58,770
ZY: Yes.
352
00:17:58,770 --> 00:18:00,400
Like “Buddhism is good”, things like that.
353
00:18:00,400 --> 00:18:01,400
OF: Yeah, right.
354
00:18:01,400 --> 00:18:02,530
ZY: This is not allowed.
355
00:18:02,530 --> 00:18:08,600
The last thing is that here in the Death Café,
we allow emotions to be shared, to flow around
356
00:18:08,600 --> 00:18:09,600
the room.
357
00:18:09,600 --> 00:18:12,740
But when we leave, all the stories we have
heard stay here.
358
00:18:12,740 --> 00:18:13,740
OF: Yeah.
359
00:18:13,740 --> 00:18:17,690
ZY: But of course, sometimes at the beginning
they will be a little bit hesitant and they
360
00:18:17,690 --> 00:18:20,240
will just wait to see what other people say.
361
00:18:20,240 --> 00:18:24,540
And sometimes we will use some small devices
to start the topic of conversation.
362
00:18:24,540 --> 00:18:29,280
For example, I could just take a piece of
paper, and tear it into small pieces, and
363
00:18:29,280 --> 00:18:36,270
write down random numbers - like 1, or maybe
90, or maybe a very very big number - and
364
00:18:36,270 --> 00:18:39,090
mix them up so that everyone can pick up a
one.
365
00:18:39,090 --> 00:18:44,320
And the number is the estimated days that
you can still live.
366
00:18:44,320 --> 00:18:48,220
And then I will ask people to share what they
feel when they see this number.
367
00:18:48,220 --> 00:18:49,220
OF: Mmm.
368
00:18:49,220 --> 00:18:52,100
ZY: It’s a very simple but very useful device.
369
00:18:52,100 --> 00:18:54,419
OF: That's how you get the conversation started.
370
00:18:54,419 --> 00:18:55,419
ZY: Yeah.
371
00:18:55,419 --> 00:18:59,170
OF: And then as someone is reacting, they
might also bring out their personal story.
372
00:18:59,170 --> 00:19:00,840
ZY: Yes, yeah.
373
00:19:00,840 --> 00:19:04,070
OF: Do you also recruit volunteers from these
groups?
374
00:19:04,070 --> 00:19:07,410
Because it must be hard to find volunteers
who want to do this.
375
00:19:07,410 --> 00:19:09,360
ZY: Not that hard, actually.
376
00:19:09,360 --> 00:19:10,360
OF: Good.
377
00:19:10,360 --> 00:19:11,360
ZY: Not that hard.
378
00:19:11,360 --> 00:19:15,860
For example, last year our NGO, 手牵手
[Shǒuqiānshǒu], had this Death Café leader
379
00:19:15,860 --> 00:19:19,440
training in Shanghai, and also in 深圳 [Shēnzhèn].
380
00:19:19,440 --> 00:19:22,690
For the quantities that we are able to train,
it’s enough for this moment.
381
00:19:22,690 --> 00:19:23,690
OF: Yeah.
382
00:19:23,690 --> 00:19:25,820
ZY: But for the whole of China, of course
it's not enough.
383
00:19:25,820 --> 00:19:26,820
OF: Well, exactly.
384
00:19:26,820 --> 00:19:27,820
ZY: Yeah.
385
00:19:27,820 --> 00:19:28,820
OF: It’s just starting.
386
00:19:28,820 --> 00:19:30,780
But are there any other NGOs like you?
387
00:19:30,780 --> 00:19:32,960
ZY: Death Café, I don't think so.
388
00:19:32,960 --> 00:19:33,960
Hospice, yes.
389
00:19:33,960 --> 00:19:35,419
OF: Got it.
390
00:19:35,419 --> 00:19:40,410
Well, let's go back to the hospice, because
what I want to ask you next is, what do you
391
00:19:40,410 --> 00:19:42,850
see when someone is about to die?
392
00:19:42,850 --> 00:19:46,920
Do you know “OK, this person is only a few
days away.”
393
00:19:46,920 --> 00:19:50,720
Like, what are the physical things that start
to happen?
394
00:19:50,720 --> 00:19:57,430
ZY: Um, if you see these people weekly, the
first things you would notice is that the
395
00:19:57,430 --> 00:19:59,659
energy is not there any more.
396
00:19:59,659 --> 00:20:03,210
For example, maybe last week she was still
sitting there, and this week she can only
397
00:20:03,210 --> 00:20:06,380
lie there, she's not able to sit up any more.
398
00:20:06,380 --> 00:20:12,350
The second thing is if she would greet you
as before or not.
399
00:20:12,350 --> 00:20:18,330
Then if it's getting nearer and the nearer
to the end, you will also see the colour of
400
00:20:18,330 --> 00:20:21,700
the skin will start to change.
401
00:20:21,700 --> 00:20:24,810
For example, there will be more and more…
402
00:20:24,810 --> 00:20:26,100
how to say this?
403
00:20:26,100 --> 00:20:27,100
The blue one…
404
00:20:27,100 --> 00:20:28,100
OF: Ah, bruises.
405
00:20:28,100 --> 00:20:29,100
ZY: The bruises.
406
00:20:29,100 --> 00:20:31,290
There will start to be more and more bruises.
407
00:20:31,290 --> 00:20:35,919
And if you are close enough - usually the
families could find out - the ears are getting
408
00:20:35,919 --> 00:20:36,990
more soft.
409
00:20:36,990 --> 00:20:39,360
OF: Wait, the ears get soft.
410
00:20:39,360 --> 00:20:40,360
ZY: Yes.
411
00:20:40,360 --> 00:20:41,360
This part.
412
00:20:41,360 --> 00:20:42,360
OF: I've never heard that before.
413
00:20:42,360 --> 00:20:43,360
ZY: Yeah.
414
00:20:43,360 --> 00:20:44,360
OF: Huh.
415
00:20:44,360 --> 00:20:49,010
ZY: There are actually a lot of signs that
you would see, if you really see it very closely
416
00:20:49,010 --> 00:20:50,010
and carefully.
417
00:20:50,010 --> 00:20:51,010
OF: Yeah.
418
00:20:51,010 --> 00:20:56,500
ZY: If the patient still drinks water as normal,
usually it starts with the feet, or also with
419
00:20:56,500 --> 00:20:57,500
the fingers.
420
00:20:57,500 --> 00:21:00,550
Yeah, it's the very furthest part, far away
from the heart.
421
00:21:00,550 --> 00:21:02,900
Then you will start to see, they will get
swelling.
422
00:21:02,900 --> 00:21:03,900
OF: Really.
423
00:21:03,900 --> 00:21:05,799
ZY: Because the body doesn't need it anymore.
424
00:21:05,799 --> 00:21:09,400
Because in the last days, the organs have
also slowed down to work.
425
00:21:09,400 --> 00:21:12,630
So they can't really handle all these things
anymore.
426
00:21:12,630 --> 00:21:15,740
Actually, they don't need to eat then, in
the last days.
427
00:21:15,740 --> 00:21:19,960
It's better to help them to keep the body
relaxed and clean, not…
428
00:21:19,960 --> 00:21:21,690
OF: Not overworking the organs.
429
00:21:21,690 --> 00:21:22,690
ZY: Yes, yes.
430
00:21:22,690 --> 00:21:23,690
OF: That makes sense.
431
00:21:23,690 --> 00:21:24,690
ZY: Yeah.
432
00:21:24,690 --> 00:21:28,049
OF: And so have you actually been there when
someone has died?
433
00:21:28,049 --> 00:21:34,010
ZY: No, because - not always, but usually
- most of the time, most people pass away
434
00:21:34,010 --> 00:21:36,840
in the night, when we wouldn’t be there.
435
00:21:36,840 --> 00:21:37,840
OF: Ah.
436
00:21:37,840 --> 00:21:38,840
Really?
437
00:21:38,840 --> 00:21:39,840
ZY: Yeah.
438
00:21:39,840 --> 00:21:40,840
OF: Do we know why?
439
00:21:40,840 --> 00:21:42,289
ZY: It's for different reasons.
440
00:21:42,289 --> 00:21:47,850
If we say medically, we can see it’s because
the organs usually don't work so actively
441
00:21:47,850 --> 00:21:48,880
as in the day.
442
00:21:48,880 --> 00:21:49,880
OF: Yes.
443
00:21:49,880 --> 00:21:51,320
So they rest even more.
444
00:21:51,320 --> 00:21:53,169
So that's when people would normally die.
445
00:21:53,169 --> 00:21:54,169
ZY: Yeah.
446
00:21:54,169 --> 00:22:00,320
And if we talk about something not related
to science, sometimes we also believe that
447
00:22:00,320 --> 00:22:04,760
lots of people just don't want to pass away
when their families are still beside them.
448
00:22:04,760 --> 00:22:05,760
OF: Yes.
449
00:22:05,760 --> 00:22:06,760
ZY: It happens, yeah.
450
00:22:06,760 --> 00:22:11,330
If the family members have been there taking
very good care of this patient, then the patient
451
00:22:11,330 --> 00:22:14,159
would maybe prefer to pass away alone.
452
00:22:14,159 --> 00:22:20,170
Because dying people don't really want to
die when it's so noisy and loud around.
453
00:22:20,170 --> 00:22:24,220
Because the last thing the body will lose
is hearing.
454
00:22:24,220 --> 00:22:29,179
Even if you see on the machine that the heart
has stopped beating, they can still hear.
455
00:22:29,179 --> 00:22:30,390
OF: They can still hear!
456
00:22:30,390 --> 00:22:31,390
ZY: For several minutes.
457
00:22:31,390 --> 00:22:32,390
Yeah, for a further several minutes.
458
00:22:32,390 --> 00:22:33,390
OF: How do you know that?
459
00:22:33,390 --> 00:22:34,740
ZY: It's a science topic, yeah.
460
00:22:34,740 --> 00:22:35,740
OF: Oh.
461
00:22:35,740 --> 00:22:39,140
ZY: It's very heavy for them, if people then
start to cry loudly, you know.
462
00:22:39,140 --> 00:22:41,090
It's very very sensitive.
463
00:22:41,090 --> 00:22:48,000
OF: Right, so if you are with someone when
they're dying, the best thing to do would
464
00:22:48,000 --> 00:22:50,740
just be to continue being calm after their
heart stopped.
465
00:22:50,740 --> 00:22:54,880
ZY: Go on talking to this patient, like “Mom,
I will always love you.
466
00:22:54,880 --> 00:22:56,970
And don't worry, I will take care of myself”.
467
00:22:56,970 --> 00:22:57,970
OF: Mmm.
468
00:22:57,970 --> 00:22:58,970
ZY: Things like that.
469
00:22:58,970 --> 00:23:00,840
Instead of like, just “Ah mom!
470
00:23:00,840 --> 00:23:01,840
Come back!
471
00:23:01,840 --> 00:23:02,840
Why?”
472
00:23:02,840 --> 00:23:03,840
Things like that.
473
00:23:03,840 --> 00:23:04,840
OF: Wow, fascinating.
474
00:23:04,840 --> 00:23:09,390
I mean, this whole conversation has been fascinating,
Zhou Yan, I really appreciate hearing from
475
00:23:09,390 --> 00:23:13,929
you, not just because we're here in China
and this topic is so interesting here, but
476
00:23:13,929 --> 00:23:15,409
just as a human.
477
00:23:15,409 --> 00:23:18,240
We actually could be having this conversation
in any country, right?
478
00:23:18,240 --> 00:23:19,240
ZY: Yes.
479
00:23:19,240 --> 00:23:22,669
If it's possible, maybe someday this will
even be my job.
480
00:23:22,669 --> 00:23:26,470
At the current moment it’s still not possible,
but maybe someday in the future.
481
00:23:26,470 --> 00:23:27,470
OF: Right.
482
00:23:27,470 --> 00:23:30,750
As it becomes more accepted, this could become
something which is a career.
483
00:23:30,750 --> 00:23:33,929
And you could actually spread it in a more
professional way across China.
484
00:23:33,929 --> 00:23:34,929
ZY: Yeah.
485
00:23:34,929 --> 00:23:35,929
OF: I support you.
486
00:23:35,929 --> 00:23:37,279
I hope that you will end up doing that.
487
00:23:37,279 --> 00:23:38,549
It's obviously your passion.
488
00:23:38,549 --> 00:23:39,549
ZY: Thank you.
489
00:23:39,549 --> 00:23:40,549
Yeah, it's my passion.
490
00:23:40,549 --> 00:23:43,000
OF: And where can people find out about this?
491
00:23:43,000 --> 00:23:45,750
ZY: The WeChat account, it's only available
in Chinese.
492
00:23:45,750 --> 00:23:46,750
OF: Of course.
493
00:23:46,750 --> 00:23:50,510
ZY: Yeah, it’s called 上海手牵手生命关爱发展中心
[Shànghǎi Shǒuqiānshǒu Shēngmìng Guān'ài
494
00:23:50,510 --> 00:23:51,840
Fāzhǎn Zhōngxīn].
495
00:23:51,840 --> 00:23:54,910
If you just look up 手牵手 [Shǒuqiānshǒu]
on WeChat, you will find us
496
00:23:54,910 --> 00:23:55,910
OF: Yes.
497
00:23:55,910 --> 00:23:56,910
So 上海手牵手 [Shànghǎi Shǒuqiānshǒu].
498
00:23:56,910 --> 00:23:57,910
ZY: Yeah.
499
00:23:57,910 --> 00:23:59,830
OF: Thanks Zhou Yan, we will move on to Part
2.
500
00:23:59,830 --> 00:24:01,520
ZY: OK.
501
00:24:01,520 --> 00:24:04,600
[Part 2]
OF: Part 2.
502
00:24:04,600 --> 00:24:05,600
ZY: OK.
503
00:24:05,600 --> 00:24:06,600
OF: Are you ready?
504
00:24:06,600 --> 00:24:07,600
ZY: Yes.
505
00:24:07,600 --> 00:24:10,850
OF: We’ve had a very serious conversation,
let’s see if we'll have a little more lightness.
506
00:24:10,850 --> 00:24:13,100
ZY: Let’s see.
507
00:24:13,100 --> 00:24:18,250
OF: Question 1, which comes from Shanghai
Daily: What is your favourite China-related
508
00:24:18,250 --> 00:24:19,250
fact?
509
00:24:19,250 --> 00:24:25,929
ZY: Well, my favourite fact is actually we
have toilets where you squat, you know.
510
00:24:25,929 --> 00:24:27,400
You have to sit.
511
00:24:27,400 --> 00:24:29,870
This is really my favourite part.
512
00:24:29,870 --> 00:24:36,409
Because the public toilets in Europe are also
not that clean, and then it's really difficult…
513
00:24:36,409 --> 00:24:38,240
I mean, it's a special topic of for women,
but…
514
00:24:38,240 --> 00:24:39,240
OF: Aha.
515
00:24:39,240 --> 00:24:41,310
ZY: I really love it here in China, that we
have it.
516
00:24:41,310 --> 00:24:43,540
OF: Because you squat, and you don't have
to sit on something.
517
00:24:43,540 --> 00:24:44,660
ZY: Yes.
518
00:24:44,660 --> 00:24:48,240
OF: I think in some parts of Europe, there
are still squat toilets.
519
00:24:48,240 --> 00:24:49,240
ZY: Oh, really?
520
00:24:49,240 --> 00:24:50,240
OF: Yeah.
521
00:24:50,240 --> 00:24:51,240
ZY: OK.
522
00:24:51,240 --> 00:24:52,240
I have never seen that.
523
00:24:52,240 --> 00:24:53,240
OF: I think…
524
00:24:53,240 --> 00:24:54,240
well…
525
00:24:54,240 --> 00:24:57,360
See, this is where I'm not sure either, because
I haven't lived in Europe now for 20 years.
526
00:24:57,360 --> 00:25:01,010
But I remember when I was travelling around
France for example, even in France they had
527
00:25:01,010 --> 00:25:02,010
squat toilets.
528
00:25:02,010 --> 00:25:04,140
ZY: How many years ago was that?
529
00:25:04,140 --> 00:25:05,140
OF: Yeah, maybe 20.
530
00:25:05,140 --> 00:25:06,460
So I don't know.
531
00:25:06,460 --> 00:25:07,810
ZY: Yeah.
532
00:25:07,810 --> 00:25:09,159
OF: Interesting.
533
00:25:09,159 --> 00:25:11,790
And do you think in China, there will always
be squat toilets?
534
00:25:11,790 --> 00:25:14,179
Or do you think that they will start to phase
them out?
535
00:25:14,179 --> 00:25:15,919
ZY: I think there will always be here.
536
00:25:15,919 --> 00:25:16,919
OF: Yeah.
537
00:25:16,919 --> 00:25:17,919
ZY: It’s a good thing.
538
00:25:17,919 --> 00:25:18,919
OF: OK.
539
00:25:18,919 --> 00:25:23,799
Next question, which comes from Rosetta Stone:
Do you have a favourite word or phrase in
540
00:25:23,799 --> 00:25:24,799
Chinese?
541
00:25:24,799 --> 00:25:25,799
ZY: Yes.
542
00:25:25,799 --> 00:25:27,360
It’s ‘无常 [wúcháng]’.
543
00:25:27,360 --> 00:25:31,299
OF: 无常 [wúcháng], so 无 [wú] as in
‘not’?
544
00:25:31,299 --> 00:25:32,299
ZY: Uh-huh.
545
00:25:32,299 --> 00:25:33,299
OF: 常 [Cháng] as in ‘often’?
546
00:25:33,299 --> 00:25:34,390
ZY: Yes, or ‘regularity’. 无常 [Wúcháng].
547
00:25:34,390 --> 00:25:35,940
OF: Yeah, so what does that mean?
548
00:25:35,940 --> 00:25:38,990
ZY: I tried to look it up in a dictionary.
549
00:25:38,990 --> 00:25:45,320
I don't know if there is really a very precise
translation, but I think it means ‘randomness’
550
00:25:45,320 --> 00:25:47,490
and ‘nothing is certain’.
551
00:25:47,490 --> 00:25:49,471
OF: Oh, I see.
552
00:25:49,471 --> 00:25:50,471
Oh, I like that.
553
00:25:50,471 --> 00:25:51,471
As a concept?
554
00:25:51,471 --> 00:25:52,471
ZY: Yes.
555
00:25:52,471 --> 00:25:56,440
Our founder always loved to say that ‘life
is flowing’.
556
00:25:56,440 --> 00:26:02,190
This is the thing that I got to realise after
I came back from Austria to Shanghai.
557
00:26:02,190 --> 00:26:06,010
Nothing worked in the first three years.
558
00:26:06,010 --> 00:26:12,870
Relationship broke up; job was not that OK;
and after 12 years, again back to the family
559
00:26:12,870 --> 00:26:18,510
quarrelling because this was the way that
we communicated with each other; and my health
560
00:26:18,510 --> 00:26:19,880
also some problems.
561
00:26:19,880 --> 00:26:25,950
And after that I read some psychology books,
and also Buddhism, and then I started to realise
562
00:26:25,950 --> 00:26:29,840
that this is actually a feature of life.
563
00:26:29,840 --> 00:26:30,840
OF: Ah.
564
00:26:30,840 --> 00:26:38,059
ZY: And the thing is not about to rely on
things like luck, or horoscope things.
565
00:26:38,059 --> 00:26:39,670
Everything comes back to myself.
566
00:26:39,670 --> 00:26:41,529
Actually, it's all in my hand.
567
00:26:41,529 --> 00:26:43,320
OF: Yeah, I like this concept.
568
00:26:43,320 --> 00:26:44,320
无常 [Wúcháng].
569
00:26:44,320 --> 00:26:45,320
ZY: Yes.
570
00:26:45,320 --> 00:26:49,540
To realise that life is just random and nothing's
for certain.
571
00:26:49,540 --> 00:26:55,610
Because it's normal, humans always want to
find a way to explain the whole universe with
572
00:26:55,610 --> 00:26:57,020
several simple rules.
573
00:26:57,020 --> 00:26:58,020
OF: Yes.
574
00:26:58,020 --> 00:26:59,890
ZY: Because this makes us feel safe.
575
00:26:59,890 --> 00:27:02,090
But I don't think it's possible.
576
00:27:02,090 --> 00:27:10,000
And for me, it's easier if I just accept its
randomness, and train myself to get so strong
577
00:27:10,000 --> 00:27:11,730
that I can just deal with it.
578
00:27:11,730 --> 00:27:12,730
OF: I love it.
579
00:27:12,730 --> 00:27:13,730
ZY: Yeah.
580
00:27:13,730 --> 00:27:14,730
OF: Thank you.
581
00:27:14,730 --> 00:27:15,730
ZY: You’re welcome.
582
00:27:15,730 --> 00:27:19,779
OF: Question 3, which comes from naked Retreats:
What is your favourite destination within
583
00:27:19,779 --> 00:27:20,779
China?
584
00:27:20,779 --> 00:27:24,409
ZY: Oh, to be honest, I haven't been to so
many cities in China.
585
00:27:24,409 --> 00:27:28,680
I think maybe most expats have visited more
cities than I have.
586
00:27:28,680 --> 00:27:31,600
But my favourite is 紫金山 [Zǐjīnshān]
in 南京 [Nánjīng].
587
00:27:31,600 --> 00:27:32,600
OF: Ah.
588
00:27:32,600 --> 00:27:34,029
ZY: It's a mountain in 南京 [Nánjīng]
city.
589
00:27:34,029 --> 00:27:35,029
OF: OK.
590
00:27:35,029 --> 00:27:36,690
Is it the one which has the observatory on
the top?
591
00:27:36,690 --> 00:27:37,690
ZY: Yes.
592
00:27:37,690 --> 00:27:38,690
OF: Ah.
593
00:27:38,690 --> 00:27:41,590
ZY: But my favourite part is not the mountain.
594
00:27:41,590 --> 00:27:45,190
It's rather actually at the bottom of the
mountain.
595
00:27:45,190 --> 00:27:46,440
There are plain trees.
596
00:27:46,440 --> 00:27:47,440
OF: Yes.
597
00:27:47,440 --> 00:27:48,440
ZY: Like we also have in Shanghai.
598
00:27:48,440 --> 00:27:49,440
OF: Yes, yes.
599
00:27:49,440 --> 00:27:53,200
ZY: But - I don't know if they have another
species in 南京 [Nánjīng] - it's all so
600
00:27:53,200 --> 00:27:58,809
old and so big, like they are growing into
the sky, and building a very beautiful avenue.
601
00:27:58,809 --> 00:27:59,809
OF: Yes.
602
00:27:59,809 --> 00:28:00,809
ZY: It’s really amazing.
603
00:28:00,809 --> 00:28:02,340
It's very high.
604
00:28:02,340 --> 00:28:03,340
Have you been there?
605
00:28:03,340 --> 00:28:05,179
OF: Do you know what, I've only been to 南京
[Nánjīng] once.
606
00:28:05,179 --> 00:28:09,590
It was when my father came to Shanghai to
visit me, and we did a weekend away together
607
00:28:09,590 --> 00:28:10,590
南京 [Nánjīng].
608
00:28:10,590 --> 00:28:12,710
And we have walked exactly where you're talking
about.
609
00:28:12,710 --> 00:28:14,190
ZY: Ah, in the mountain, or..?
610
00:28:14,190 --> 00:28:15,190
OF: Yeah, at the bottom.
611
00:28:15,190 --> 00:28:16,190
ZY: At the bottom.
612
00:28:16,190 --> 00:28:17,190
OF: At the bottom of the mountain.
613
00:28:17,190 --> 00:28:18,190
ZY: Ah OK.
614
00:28:18,190 --> 00:28:19,190
OF: Yeah yeah, exactly.
615
00:28:19,190 --> 00:28:20,190
ZY: Yeah.
616
00:28:20,190 --> 00:28:22,460
OF: And it was like this forest, but it's
just 30 minutes from downtown 南京 [Nánjīng].
617
00:28:22,460 --> 00:28:23,460
ZY: Yes.
618
00:28:23,460 --> 00:28:26,799
OF: Because here in Shanghai, you have to
really go three hours to find anything like
619
00:28:26,799 --> 00:28:27,799
that.
620
00:28:27,799 --> 00:28:28,799
ZY: Yeah, you are right.
621
00:28:28,799 --> 00:28:31,840
OF: That’s why I think 南京 [Nánjīng]
is a more livable city in some ways.
622
00:28:31,840 --> 00:28:37,800
In fact, a Chinese lady in Season 01, Nini
Sum, she actually said 南京 [Nánjīng]
623
00:28:37,800 --> 00:28:38,890
was her favourite destination.
624
00:28:38,890 --> 00:28:41,340
It's her hometown, and she basically was saying
the same thing.
625
00:28:41,340 --> 00:28:42,340
ZY: Ah, OK.
626
00:28:42,340 --> 00:28:43,990
OF: So there's a nice connection there.
627
00:28:43,990 --> 00:28:44,990
ZY: Yeah.
628
00:28:44,990 --> 00:28:46,269
OF: Hello Nini.
629
00:28:46,269 --> 00:28:47,269
ZY: Hello!
630
00:28:47,269 --> 00:28:48,539
OF: Next question.
631
00:28:48,539 --> 00:28:52,809
If you left China, what would you miss the
most, and what would you miss the least?
632
00:28:52,809 --> 00:28:56,919
ZY: What I would miss the most is, of course,
my family.
633
00:28:56,919 --> 00:28:58,309
Because I'm Chinese.
634
00:28:58,309 --> 00:29:02,340
OF: And of course you are now so much closer
to your family.
635
00:29:02,340 --> 00:29:03,340
ZY: Yes.
636
00:29:03,340 --> 00:29:07,149
OF: I guess when you lived in Austria for
12 years, maybe you didn't really miss them
637
00:29:07,149 --> 00:29:08,149
so much.
638
00:29:08,149 --> 00:29:09,149
But this time it would be different, right?
639
00:29:09,149 --> 00:29:10,460
ZY: You are right.
640
00:29:10,460 --> 00:29:11,550
OF: Mmm.
641
00:29:11,550 --> 00:29:12,550
Do they know that?
642
00:29:12,550 --> 00:29:15,390
Like, do they really feel the difference in
your relationship between then and now?
643
00:29:15,390 --> 00:29:16,700
ZY: It's a good question.
644
00:29:16,700 --> 00:29:20,210
I think they know it.
645
00:29:20,210 --> 00:29:24,370
Because as what I said before in the first
part, in the hospice: the five things we should
646
00:29:24,370 --> 00:29:26,570
do, one of them is to apologise.
647
00:29:26,570 --> 00:29:28,900
It's very difficult for people to apologise.
648
00:29:28,900 --> 00:29:29,960
OF: Oh my god.
649
00:29:29,960 --> 00:29:30,960
Yep.
650
00:29:30,960 --> 00:29:33,309
ZY: In Chinese culture especially, because
of this 面子 [miànzi] thing.
651
00:29:33,309 --> 00:29:34,309
OF: Yeah.
652
00:29:34,309 --> 00:29:39,710
ZY: And I'm also aware that sometimes I should
really say sorry to my parents, but it's so
653
00:29:39,710 --> 00:29:42,850
difficult to say, and I start to do one thing.
654
00:29:42,850 --> 00:29:49,200
After we quarrel again, I would just come
to my papa or my mama and just hug him or
655
00:29:49,200 --> 00:29:50,200
her.
656
00:29:50,200 --> 00:29:51,200
It's a ‘sorry’.
657
00:29:51,200 --> 00:29:52,200
OF: Yeah.
658
00:29:52,200 --> 00:29:54,220
ZY: So I think they know it now that I really
have them in my heart.
659
00:29:54,220 --> 00:29:55,220
OF: Yes.
660
00:29:55,220 --> 00:29:56,220
ZY: Yeah.
661
00:29:56,220 --> 00:29:57,220
OF: Nice answer.
662
00:29:57,220 --> 00:29:58,220
And what would you miss the least?
663
00:29:58,220 --> 00:30:01,590
ZY: It's what I just mentioned, the ‘face’.
664
00:30:01,590 --> 00:30:03,529
The 面子 [miànzi] thing, which is very
famous.
665
00:30:03,529 --> 00:30:04,529
OF: Yeah.
666
00:30:04,529 --> 00:30:07,510
I don't think, in three seasons, anyone has
really defined 面子 [miànzi].
667
00:30:07,510 --> 00:30:08,940
So can you define it?
668
00:30:08,940 --> 00:30:09,980
ZY: Woah.
669
00:30:09,980 --> 00:30:15,930
Of course, it's different from person to person,
but the most common situation is maybe that,
670
00:30:15,930 --> 00:30:21,859
for example, if your leader at work says something
wrong, makes a mistake, and you point it out,
671
00:30:21,859 --> 00:30:23,730
he lost his face because he's the leader.
672
00:30:23,730 --> 00:30:24,730
OF: Mmm.
673
00:30:24,730 --> 00:30:30,550
ZY: Or generally, for example, in a dating
relationship, usually the boys tend to show
674
00:30:30,550 --> 00:30:31,630
“I know everything.”
675
00:30:31,630 --> 00:30:36,899
And then if you come to a topic that he doesn't
know, and yet he tries to go on talking with
676
00:30:36,899 --> 00:30:40,450
you about that, and you think "Should I point
it out or not?”
677
00:30:40,450 --> 00:30:42,580
Yeah, such kind of things are everywhere,
actually.
678
00:30:42,580 --> 00:30:43,580
OF: Yes.
679
00:30:43,580 --> 00:30:44,800
So what is the answer?
680
00:30:44,800 --> 00:30:49,279
In China you basically don't say anything,
you just have to nod and say “Mmm, mmm,
681
00:30:49,279 --> 00:30:50,279
mmm”.
682
00:30:50,279 --> 00:30:51,279
ZY: Yes.
683
00:30:51,279 --> 00:30:53,880
Just don't make it clear that it was wrong.
684
00:30:53,880 --> 00:30:56,539
OF: So actually, you don't like this system.
685
00:30:56,539 --> 00:30:58,679
ZY: I don't like it.
686
00:30:58,679 --> 00:31:01,360
Because I've been living in Austria for 12
years.
687
00:31:01,360 --> 00:31:05,399
And I studied there, so when I was 19 I went
to Austria.
688
00:31:05,399 --> 00:31:07,269
And there, the culture is very direct.
689
00:31:07,269 --> 00:31:08,269
OF: Mm-hm.
690
00:31:08,269 --> 00:31:11,419
ZY: When you find out something, and when
you think of something, you just speak it
691
00:31:11,419 --> 00:31:12,419
out.
692
00:31:12,419 --> 00:31:15,960
And I really love it, because it's very efficient.
693
00:31:15,960 --> 00:31:17,360
And because it's real.
694
00:31:17,360 --> 00:31:18,360
OF: Yeah.
695
00:31:18,360 --> 00:31:19,360
ZY: Yeah.
696
00:31:19,360 --> 00:31:24,460
OF: When you live your life in China, do you
try and blend in some of that Austrian culture
697
00:31:24,460 --> 00:31:26,070
into your relationships?
698
00:31:26,070 --> 00:31:30,040
Or now have you basically ‘gone native’
back into the Chinese culture?
699
00:31:30,040 --> 00:31:35,720
ZY: It's not that I try to blend in, but I
am just like that.
700
00:31:35,720 --> 00:31:42,090
And if I act like that, people will notice
“OK, Yan is a little bit different”.
701
00:31:42,090 --> 00:31:45,019
And then they will have to decide how they
react to me.
702
00:31:45,019 --> 00:31:46,019
OF: Mmm.
703
00:31:46,019 --> 00:31:50,200
ZY: And those people who stay, they will be
the ones that I feel comfortable with.
704
00:31:50,200 --> 00:31:51,200
OF: I see.
705
00:31:51,200 --> 00:31:52,200
ZY: Yeah.
706
00:31:52,200 --> 00:31:55,529
OF: Next question, is there anything that
still surprises you about life in China?
707
00:31:55,529 --> 00:32:01,150
ZY: The thing that surprised me the most was
that one thing in Shanghai is totally different
708
00:32:01,150 --> 00:32:03,700
now: parks and the public toilets.
709
00:32:03,700 --> 00:32:04,800
OF: Right.
710
00:32:04,800 --> 00:32:10,820
ZY: Parks used to always charge entrance fees,
when I left China as a child.
711
00:32:10,820 --> 00:32:13,809
And the public toilets also charged fees.
712
00:32:13,809 --> 00:32:15,630
But now they are all for free.
713
00:32:15,630 --> 00:32:21,399
And the public toilets now, I think 9 out
of 10 that I've visited, are all very clean.
714
00:32:21,399 --> 00:32:22,399
OF: Yeah.
715
00:32:22,399 --> 00:32:23,399
ZY: Yeah.
716
00:32:23,399 --> 00:32:24,399
This really surprised me.
717
00:32:24,399 --> 00:32:25,860
This is very important for me.
718
00:32:25,860 --> 00:32:26,990
OF: Hang on.
719
00:32:26,990 --> 00:32:30,519
Yeah, this is the second question you've answered
which includes toilets.
720
00:32:30,519 --> 00:32:32,470
ZY: This is very important.
721
00:32:32,470 --> 00:32:33,470
Yeah.
722
00:32:33,470 --> 00:32:34,500
OF: Hey, you're very practical.
723
00:32:34,500 --> 00:32:43,720
Let's talk about death… and ****. Next question,
this is from SmartShanghai: Where is your
724
00:32:43,720 --> 00:32:47,360
favourite place to go out, to eat or drink
or hang out?
725
00:32:47,360 --> 00:32:51,330
ZY: Currently, my favourite restaurant is
called 望蓉城 [Wàngróngchéng].
726
00:32:51,330 --> 00:32:52,330
OF: Ooh.
727
00:32:52,330 --> 00:32:57,299
ZY: It’s snakehead fish fillets in a Chinese
sauerkraut soup.
728
00:32:57,299 --> 00:32:59,010
OF: Wait wait wait wait.
729
00:32:59,010 --> 00:33:00,450
Start again, what the hell?
730
00:33:00,450 --> 00:33:02,460
ZY: This fish is called snakehead.
731
00:33:02,460 --> 00:33:04,779
I looked it up in the dictionary.
732
00:33:04,779 --> 00:33:06,929
It's a black fish actually, 黑鱼[hēiyú].
733
00:33:06,929 --> 00:33:09,650
OF: I've never heard of this fish.
734
00:33:09,650 --> 00:33:10,650
OK.
735
00:33:10,650 --> 00:33:13,390
ZY: Yeah, this restaurant that does it very
well.
736
00:33:13,390 --> 00:33:14,600
OF: Where is it?
737
00:33:14,600 --> 00:33:18,200
ZY: It's a chain, you can find it in lots
of places.
738
00:33:18,200 --> 00:33:19,830
OF: All right, I'm gonna look it up.
739
00:33:19,830 --> 00:33:21,030
ZY: I’ll send you the link.
740
00:33:21,030 --> 00:33:22,030
OF: Yes please.
741
00:33:22,030 --> 00:33:27,139
Next question, what is the best or worst purchase
you have recently made in China?
742
00:33:27,139 --> 00:33:32,150
ZY: When I think back to the last years, I
think the best purchase I made was…
743
00:33:32,150 --> 00:33:37,649
There used to be a place in the city centre,
it was called the ‘Wake Up Dead Experience’.
744
00:33:37,649 --> 00:33:38,649
OF: OK.
745
00:33:38,649 --> 00:33:39,649
ZY: Yes.
746
00:33:39,649 --> 00:33:43,289
It’s a small place but very well designed.
747
00:33:43,289 --> 00:33:45,910
And they had two price levels, one was 444.
748
00:33:45,910 --> 00:33:47,049
OF: Ah, 四四四 [Sìsìsì].
749
00:33:47,049 --> 00:33:50,280
ZY: Because four is 四 [sì], like ‘die’
in Chinese: ‘死 [sǐ]’.
750
00:33:50,280 --> 00:33:51,280
OF: Yes.
751
00:33:51,280 --> 00:33:52,280
ZY: It’s just a different tone, yeah?
752
00:33:52,280 --> 00:33:55,540
OF: So go on, then let's hear you say “four,
death, four, death, four, death.”
753
00:33:55,540 --> 00:33:59,610
ZY: 四 [sì], 死 [sǐ], 四 [sì], 死 [sǐ],
四 [sì], 死 [sǐ].
754
00:33:59,610 --> 00:34:00,610
OF: Yeah.
755
00:34:00,610 --> 00:34:02,960
ZY: And another prize was 777.
756
00:34:02,960 --> 00:34:08,550
七 [Qī], seven, is also a special number
which has to do with the seventh day after
757
00:34:08,550 --> 00:34:12,579
someone has passed away, they will come back
to see his family again.
758
00:34:12,579 --> 00:34:13,579
OF: Oh I see.
759
00:34:13,579 --> 00:34:17,480
ZY: Yeah, so a small ceremony would be held
within the family.
760
00:34:17,480 --> 00:34:20,840
On the first seven days, and then on the second
seven.
761
00:34:20,840 --> 00:34:26,570
If some families are very traditional and
take it seriously, it could go on to the seventh
762
00:34:26,570 --> 00:34:28,570
seven days, so like 49 days altogether.
763
00:34:28,570 --> 00:34:29,570
OF: Mmm.
764
00:34:29,570 --> 00:34:31,630
ZY: So that was the price of the ticket.
765
00:34:31,630 --> 00:34:37,560
They kind of had a game designed, and for
each round of the game one person would have
766
00:34:37,560 --> 00:34:38,710
to die and leave.
767
00:34:38,710 --> 00:34:39,710
OF: OK.
768
00:34:39,710 --> 00:34:45,889
ZY: And then the people who left would take
a slide down, and land into…
769
00:34:45,889 --> 00:34:47,639
OK, what's the word?
770
00:34:47,639 --> 00:34:50,240
You know where the baby is formed in the…
771
00:34:50,240 --> 00:34:51,240
OF: Oh, womb.
772
00:34:51,240 --> 00:34:52,240
ZY: Huh?
773
00:34:52,240 --> 00:34:53,240
OF: Womb.
774
00:34:53,240 --> 00:34:54,240
ZY: Womb?
775
00:34:54,240 --> 00:34:55,240
OF: Yeah.
776
00:34:55,240 --> 00:34:56,240
ZY: In the womb.
777
00:34:56,240 --> 00:34:57,240
And here you get reborn.
778
00:34:57,240 --> 00:35:00,180
And then in the womb, you will wait for all
the other people to die, and then you would
779
00:35:00,180 --> 00:35:05,490
all sit together with the moderator of the
game, and she would go through what she thought
780
00:35:05,490 --> 00:35:06,890
is important for you.
781
00:35:06,890 --> 00:35:08,980
So like we simulated the whole process.
782
00:35:08,980 --> 00:35:10,410
It was very interesting.
783
00:35:10,410 --> 00:35:16,570
And that's also where I got to know a doctor
who was working in children's cancer…
784
00:35:16,570 --> 00:35:17,920
how to stay…
785
00:35:17,920 --> 00:35:18,920
‘alleviative’?
786
00:35:18,920 --> 00:35:21,580
OF: Oh, cancer alleviative drugs.
787
00:35:21,580 --> 00:35:23,680
ZY: Alleviative treatment, yes.
788
00:35:23,680 --> 00:35:25,960
And there she introduced me to 手牵手 [Shǒuqiānshǒu].
789
00:35:25,960 --> 00:35:28,480
OF: Oh, so that was how you first started.
790
00:35:28,480 --> 00:35:29,480
ZY: Yeah.
791
00:35:29,480 --> 00:35:31,490
OF: That would be your best purchase, I understand
that.
792
00:35:31,490 --> 00:35:32,490
ZY: Yeah.
793
00:35:32,490 --> 00:35:34,510
OF: Because that led you to your entire lifestyle
now.
794
00:35:34,510 --> 00:35:35,510
ZY: Yeah.
795
00:35:35,510 --> 00:35:37,280
OF: OK, next question.
796
00:35:37,280 --> 00:35:39,210
What is your favourite WeChat sticker?
797
00:35:39,210 --> 00:35:41,190
ZY: I just sent it to you.
798
00:35:41,190 --> 00:35:42,230
OF: OK.
799
00:35:42,230 --> 00:35:44,090
What’s this, can you explain it?
800
00:35:44,090 --> 00:35:45,839
ZY: Do you know this figure?
801
00:35:45,839 --> 00:35:46,839
It's Timon.
802
00:35:46,839 --> 00:35:47,839
OF: It’s Disney, right?
803
00:35:47,839 --> 00:35:48,839
ZY: Yeah, from The Lion King.
804
00:35:48,839 --> 00:35:50,160
OF: Yeah, right.
805
00:35:50,160 --> 00:35:55,319
ZY: It's a mongoose actually, dancing with
a Hawaiian hula skirt.
806
00:35:55,319 --> 00:35:56,349
I really love it.
807
00:35:56,349 --> 00:35:58,810
OF: That's just happy one for you, is it?
808
00:35:58,810 --> 00:35:59,810
ZY: Yes.
809
00:35:59,810 --> 00:36:01,390
And not just a happy one.
810
00:36:01,390 --> 00:36:05,609
Because in 2021 I met my husband.
811
00:36:05,609 --> 00:36:06,609
OF: Congratulations.
812
00:36:06,609 --> 00:36:07,609
ZY: Thank you.
813
00:36:07,609 --> 00:36:12,599
I'd been single for seven years before, yeah
I've been waiting for him.
814
00:36:12,599 --> 00:36:14,859
He looks very similar to Timon.
815
00:36:14,859 --> 00:36:16,430
For me, for me.
816
00:36:16,430 --> 00:36:19,839
But in the Chinese horoscope, I am the pig.
817
00:36:19,839 --> 00:36:23,190
So he said “Aha OK, then you are Pumbaa."
818
00:36:23,190 --> 00:36:25,109
So it has a small story behind it.
819
00:36:25,109 --> 00:36:26,170
OF: I love it.
820
00:36:26,170 --> 00:36:29,550
OK, now I need to have a photo of your husband,
and then I can compare.
821
00:36:29,550 --> 00:36:31,430
ZY: I will send it to you.
822
00:36:31,430 --> 00:36:33,050
He's totally OK with that.
823
00:36:33,050 --> 00:36:34,050
OF: Great.
824
00:36:34,050 --> 00:36:36,190
What is your go-to song to sing at KTV?
825
00:36:36,190 --> 00:36:38,369
ZY: It’s a Chinese one.
826
00:36:38,369 --> 00:36:42,250
And it's called in Chinese ‘那些花儿
[Nàxiē Huāer]’ which means ‘Those Flowers’.
827
00:36:42,250 --> 00:36:51,310
The song goes like “Those flowers which
I thought would be here forever have all left
828
00:36:51,310 --> 00:36:53,940
me, and I don't know where they are now.
829
00:36:53,940 --> 00:36:57,720
But it's lucky that I was with them when they
blossomed”.
830
00:36:57,720 --> 00:37:01,740
OF: Oh, that's very very ‘you’, that's
a very Zhou Yan song.
831
00:37:01,740 --> 00:37:05,360
ZY: Yeah, but it just reminds me of my school
time.
832
00:37:05,360 --> 00:37:10,579
Because I am a person that usually won’t
contacted other people first.
833
00:37:10,579 --> 00:37:12,300
Usually I'm waiting for them to contact me.
834
00:37:12,300 --> 00:37:13,300
OF: OK.
835
00:37:13,300 --> 00:37:18,110
ZY: So that's why I've lost my primary school
mates, junior high school mates.
836
00:37:18,110 --> 00:37:20,680
I have some senior high school mates because
they approached me first.
837
00:37:20,680 --> 00:37:21,680
OF: Yeah.
838
00:37:21,680 --> 00:37:23,060
ZY: But I'm just like that.
839
00:37:23,060 --> 00:37:26,020
I still think it was a very nice time that
I had with them together.
840
00:37:26,020 --> 00:37:27,890
OF: So they're just last flowers.
841
00:37:27,890 --> 00:37:28,890
ZY: Yeah.
842
00:37:28,890 --> 00:37:30,130
OF: Is this a depressing song?
843
00:37:30,130 --> 00:37:32,310
Like when you sing it, does everyone start
crying?
844
00:37:32,310 --> 00:37:33,310
ZY: No no no.
845
00:37:33,310 --> 00:37:34,730
No, it’s just a very beautiful one.
846
00:37:34,730 --> 00:37:37,580
OF: OK, I'll check it out.
847
00:37:37,580 --> 00:37:41,839
And finally, this last question comes from
JustPod, which is the studio we are sitting
848
00:37:41,839 --> 00:37:42,839
in now.
849
00:37:42,839 --> 00:37:43,839
ZY: OK.
850
00:37:43,839 --> 00:37:47,400
OF: What or who is your biggest source of
inspiration in China?
851
00:37:47,400 --> 00:37:51,250
ZY: Listening to dying people, they will teach
you a lot.
852
00:37:51,250 --> 00:37:56,540
Dying people have much more wisdom than normal
people in your daily life.
853
00:37:56,540 --> 00:37:57,540
OF: Mmm.
854
00:37:57,540 --> 00:38:01,150
ZY: Usually people don't take the time to
listen to them.
855
00:38:01,150 --> 00:38:05,870
Our founder told us when you want to listen
to the people, you should put down everything.
856
00:38:05,870 --> 00:38:10,610
Because usually when we are listening to each
other, I would just think “OK, this is the
857
00:38:10,610 --> 00:38:11,630
point I want to note”.
858
00:38:11,630 --> 00:38:12,630
OF: Yeah.
859
00:38:12,630 --> 00:38:18,280
ZY: But then if I put down everything, just
listen to you, all my information channels
860
00:38:18,280 --> 00:38:25,109
are open, and I can get much more information
than I usually get only with my ear, yeah?
861
00:38:25,109 --> 00:38:26,109
OF: Mm-hm.
862
00:38:26,109 --> 00:38:27,109
ZY: This is very helpful.
863
00:38:27,109 --> 00:38:28,109
OF: Mmm.
864
00:38:28,109 --> 00:38:29,109
ZY: Yeah.
865
00:38:29,109 --> 00:38:31,349
OF: What a lovely way to end this conversation.
866
00:38:31,349 --> 00:38:35,829
I've been trying to do the same with you,
and I've also really learned a lot from you.
867
00:38:35,829 --> 00:38:36,910
Thank you so much Zhou Yan.
868
00:38:36,910 --> 00:38:38,290
ZY: You're welcome.
869
00:38:38,290 --> 00:38:43,089
OF: Before I let you leave, the question I
will ask you is: Out of everyone you know
870
00:38:43,089 --> 00:38:48,040
in China, who would you recommend that I interview
in the next season of Mosaic of China?
871
00:38:48,040 --> 00:38:52,520
ZY: I would like to introduce Darsea Liu.
872
00:38:52,520 --> 00:38:53,750
She's a professional surfer.
873
00:38:53,750 --> 00:38:56,980
Or better to say, she used to be a professional
surfer.
874
00:38:56,980 --> 00:39:00,680
But now she's engaged in ecology.
875
00:39:00,680 --> 00:39:01,680
OF: OK.
876
00:39:01,680 --> 00:39:06,270
So she's gone from surfer to environmental
protection, just like you went from working
877
00:39:06,270 --> 00:39:08,640
in Austria to now working in volunteer work.
878
00:39:08,640 --> 00:39:09,640
ZY: Yes.
879
00:39:09,640 --> 00:39:10,640
OF: I can see the connection.
880
00:39:10,640 --> 00:39:12,180
ZY: Yeah, totally different now.
881
00:39:12,180 --> 00:39:14,680
OF: What one question would you ask her?
882
00:39:14,680 --> 00:39:19,609
ZY: I would like to ask the questions that
you have asked me also, then.
883
00:39:19,609 --> 00:39:25,380
What does she believe that she has got the
most - up to now - from this change?
884
00:39:25,380 --> 00:39:26,470
OF: Right.
885
00:39:26,470 --> 00:39:28,950
So not what she can give, but what has she
received?
886
00:39:28,950 --> 00:39:29,950
ZY: Yes.
887
00:39:29,950 --> 00:39:31,820
OF: Mmm, very nice.
888
00:39:31,820 --> 00:39:32,820
Thanks again Zhou Yan.
889
00:39:32,820 --> 00:39:34,080
ZY: Thank you.
890
00:39:34,080 --> 00:39:38,410
[Outro]
OF: I hope you enjoyed listening to that as
891
00:39:38,410 --> 00:39:41,829
much as I enjoyed making it.
892
00:39:41,829 --> 00:39:47,670
Just a couple of quick clarifications, the
first Death Café was in the UK, but the person
893
00:39:47,670 --> 00:39:53,210
who came up with the idea Bernard Crettaz
was himself Swiss.
894
00:39:53,210 --> 00:39:58,600
And Zhou Yan also wanted me to make clear
that in the hospice they don’t push patients
895
00:39:58,600 --> 00:40:04,190
to communicate more deeply with their families,
as may have come across in the interview.
896
00:40:04,190 --> 00:40:09,650
They really just talk and listen, and if an
appropriate topic comes up then they would
897
00:40:09,650 --> 00:40:16,280
simply try to make suggestions as part of
the natural flow of conversation.
898
00:40:16,280 --> 00:40:21,500
We cover some similar ground on the topics
of death and bereavement in another recent
899
00:40:21,500 --> 00:40:28,760
episode, the one with the filmmaker Elaine
Huang from Season 03 Episode 08, so be sure
900
00:40:28,760 --> 00:40:33,140
to dip into that show if you haven’t done
so already.
901
00:40:33,140 --> 00:40:38,470
And another connection to a previous episode
was on the big topic of…
902
00:40:38,470 --> 00:40:39,760
Chinese sauerkraut.
903
00:40:39,760 --> 00:40:48,390
I also talked about this with the Tourette’s
advocate Dajiang, from Season 03 Episode 15.
904
00:40:48,390 --> 00:40:54,270
And finally please go online - either to the
mosaicofchina.com website or on social media
905
00:40:54,270 --> 00:41:00,620
- to see all the images that accompany today’s
show, including Zhou Yan’s favourite WeChat
906
00:41:00,620 --> 00:41:08,030
sticker of Timon, the mongoose from the Lion
King, compared alongside a photo of her husband.
907
00:41:08,030 --> 00:41:14,490
I can’t mention The Lion King without reminding
you that Season 01 Episode 01 of the show
908
00:41:14,490 --> 00:41:21,660
was with Philippe Gas, President of the Disney
Resort Shanghai, who also - perhaps unsurprisingly
909
00:41:21,660 --> 00:41:24,990
- discussed The Lion King.
910
00:41:24,990 --> 00:41:29,930
As I mentioned at the beginning of today’s
episode, there’s a much longer version of
911
00:41:29,930 --> 00:41:36,710
my chat with Zhou Yan in the PREMIUM version
of the show, at Patreon or Apple Podcast Subscriptions
912
00:41:36,710 --> 00:41:40,910
internationally, or on 爱发电 [Àifādiàn]
in China.
913
00:41:40,910 --> 00:41:41,910
Here are some clips:
914
00:41:41,910 --> 00:41:46,040
[Clip 1]
ZY: One day I drove 200 kilometres without
915
00:41:46,040 --> 00:41:48,280
seeing one person.
916
00:41:48,280 --> 00:41:49,280
Sometimes it's good.
917
00:41:49,280 --> 00:41:50,280
OF: Absolutely.
918
00:41:50,280 --> 00:41:51,280
ZY: Yeah.
919
00:41:51,280 --> 00:41:52,280
[Clip 2]
OF: We couldn't really talk to her.
920
00:41:52,280 --> 00:41:54,280
But my father started singing, and then she
joined in.
921
00:41:54,280 --> 00:41:55,280
ZY: Wow.
922
00:41:55,280 --> 00:41:59,310
[Clip 3]
ZY: A taxi driver who has just lost his wife
923
00:41:59,310 --> 00:42:00,620
the day before.
924
00:42:00,620 --> 00:42:05,380
But he still has a daughter to raise, so he
has to go back to work the next day.
925
00:42:05,380 --> 00:42:07,810
[Clip 4]
ZY: It's not a money earning business, yeah.
926
00:42:07,810 --> 00:42:08,810
OF: No.
927
00:42:08,810 --> 00:42:09,810
ZY: No.
928
00:42:09,810 --> 00:42:11,040
OF: Because it's standardised across the whole
of Shanghai.
929
00:42:11,040 --> 00:42:12,040
ZY: Yeah.
930
00:42:12,040 --> 00:42:14,260
[Clip 5]
ZY: You can see maybe fruits, or maybe the
931
00:42:14,260 --> 00:42:18,440
things he likes, maybe some Buddhist figures
or things like that.
932
00:42:18,440 --> 00:42:22,670
[Clip 6]
ZY: The hospital workers are a difficult topic.
933
00:42:22,670 --> 00:42:24,840
Because they are very badly paid.
934
00:42:24,840 --> 00:42:27,109
[Clip 7]
OF: So when you say that that's the thing
935
00:42:27,109 --> 00:42:31,160
you want to avoid, I hear you because the
last thing we did was argue about “Will
936
00:42:31,160 --> 00:42:32,430
I brush my teeth or not?”
937
00:42:32,430 --> 00:42:36,119
[Clip 8]
ZY: After I finished the first sentence, she
938
00:42:36,119 --> 00:42:38,550
started to sing the second one with me.
939
00:42:38,550 --> 00:42:39,550
OF: Oh.
940
00:42:39,550 --> 00:42:41,609
[Clip 9]
ZY: They already started to think about these
941
00:42:41,609 --> 00:42:44,609
topics, and they want to hear what the others
have to say.
942
00:42:44,609 --> 00:42:46,260
OF: Which kind of sounds like you, right?
943
00:42:46,260 --> 00:42:47,260
ZY: Yes, yes.
944
00:42:47,260 --> 00:42:48,869
[Clip 10]
OF: It’s too direct.
945
00:42:48,869 --> 00:42:49,869
ZY: Yes, yes.
946
00:42:49,869 --> 00:42:52,050
OF: Yeah, we have that bull-**** as well.
947
00:42:52,050 --> 00:42:54,330
[End of Audio Clips]
948
00:42:54,330 --> 00:43:00,000
OF: Mosaic of China is me, Oscar Fuchs, with
artwork by Denny Newell.
949
00:43:00,000 --> 00:43:04,809
After the music, there are catch-ups with
the history professor Chang Chihyun from Season
950
00:43:04,809 --> 00:43:11,569
02 Episode 03 and the playwright Nick Yu from
Season 01 Episode 13.
951
00:43:11,569 --> 00:43:15,809
Like I said at the top of the show, I’m
going to take a break from Mosaic of China
952
00:43:15,809 --> 00:43:21,870
for a few weeks, so I’ll see you back again
for the next full episode of Season 03 a little
953
00:43:21,870 --> 00:43:23,119
later.
954
00:43:23,119 --> 00:43:29,480
All that remains for me to say until then
is: I love you, I’m sorry, I forgive you,
955
00:43:29,480 --> 00:43:31,550
thank you, and goodbye.
956
00:43:31,550 --> 00:43:38,320
[Catch-Up Interview 1]
OF: Chihyun!
957
00:43:38,320 --> 00:43:41,030
CC: Hi.
958
00:43:41,030 --> 00:43:44,450
OF: Good to see you, man.
959
00:43:44,450 --> 00:43:46,220
CC: It's very nice to see you too.
960
00:43:46,220 --> 00:43:48,780
OF: You are looking very fit.
961
00:43:48,780 --> 00:43:51,430
CC: I want to lose another 20 pounds.
962
00:43:51,430 --> 00:43:52,430
OF: Right!
963
00:43:52,430 --> 00:43:53,430
CC: Yeah.
964
00:43:53,430 --> 00:43:54,440
OF: This was a lockdown plan, or..?
965
00:43:54,440 --> 00:43:57,530
CC: It was an accidental/lockdown plan.
966
00:43:57,530 --> 00:44:03,380
Since I had a lot of time, I thought it was
a great idea for me to experiment and try
967
00:44:03,380 --> 00:44:05,500
to adapt my diet.
968
00:44:05,500 --> 00:44:07,010
OF: That's incredible.
969
00:44:07,010 --> 00:44:10,310
So really, this is an entire lifestyle change?
970
00:44:10,310 --> 00:44:12,910
CC: I think it will be a lifestyle change.
971
00:44:12,910 --> 00:44:13,910
I still drink.
972
00:44:13,910 --> 00:44:15,180
I still eat meat.
973
00:44:15,180 --> 00:44:16,180
But the frequency…
974
00:44:16,180 --> 00:44:17,180
OF: Yeah.
975
00:44:17,180 --> 00:44:19,940
CC: …Is not as high any more.
976
00:44:19,940 --> 00:44:20,940
OF: Yeah.
977
00:44:20,940 --> 00:44:26,100
Well, you were quite famous for the way that
you handled your relationships in the university.
978
00:44:26,100 --> 00:44:31,579
So people who don't know you, you are a professor
at Jiaotong University.
979
00:44:31,579 --> 00:44:32,579
CC: Yes.
980
00:44:32,579 --> 00:44:33,579
OF: In the Humanities Department.
981
00:44:33,579 --> 00:44:36,320
CC: Humanities School and History Department.
982
00:44:36,320 --> 00:44:37,340
OF: Oh, got it.
983
00:44:37,340 --> 00:44:38,340
CC: Yeah.
984
00:44:38,340 --> 00:44:43,220
OF: And part of the way that you communicated
was through taking out your students and having
985
00:44:43,220 --> 00:44:45,680
a drink together, having a nice meal together.
986
00:44:45,680 --> 00:44:48,700
So it's gonna be interesting to see how that
changes in the future.
987
00:44:48,700 --> 00:44:50,750
CC: That will be rough, right?
988
00:44:50,750 --> 00:44:53,819
I think I really have to find a better way,
right?
989
00:44:53,819 --> 00:44:54,819
Yeah.
990
00:44:54,819 --> 00:44:57,160
OF: Well let's talk about life in the university.
991
00:44:57,160 --> 00:45:02,180
Because it used to be an area where it was
quite international, I used to bump into many
992
00:45:02,180 --> 00:45:03,290
international people.
993
00:45:03,290 --> 00:45:07,369
But of course, many people on student visas
still can't return to China.
994
00:45:07,369 --> 00:45:08,369
CC: No they can't.
995
00:45:08,369 --> 00:45:13,370
OF: So as an update to our episode, what has
happened in the last 18 months?
996
00:45:13,370 --> 00:45:18,280
CC: I think it is the biggest pity, I have
to say.
997
00:45:18,280 --> 00:45:23,309
Because the biggest change is, every corner
in the world is not globalised anymore.
998
00:45:23,309 --> 00:45:30,700
Especially universities are particularly cautious
about whether or not we should let foreign
999
00:45:30,700 --> 00:45:32,670
students come into the campus.
1000
00:45:32,670 --> 00:45:40,260
This caused a lot of damage to our academic
performance and advancement.
1001
00:45:40,260 --> 00:45:45,339
Academics mean controversies, controversies
bring in advancement.
1002
00:45:45,339 --> 00:45:46,850
It is necessary.
1003
00:45:46,850 --> 00:45:50,710
We have to respect - and we have to listen
to - some different ideas.
1004
00:45:50,710 --> 00:45:56,160
But if we cannot meet people in person, trust
me they're not going to tell you what they
1005
00:45:56,160 --> 00:46:00,670
really think over Zoom or Tencent Conference,
they're not going to do that.
1006
00:46:00,670 --> 00:46:01,670
OF: Yeah.
1007
00:46:01,670 --> 00:46:02,930
CC: You really have to get some drinks first.
1008
00:46:02,930 --> 00:46:03,930
OF: Yeah.
1009
00:46:03,930 --> 00:46:06,099
CC: So I think that is the biggest problem.
1010
00:46:06,099 --> 00:46:10,010
And to be very honest, it's deeply worries
me.
1011
00:46:10,010 --> 00:46:16,210
I think it would be a very difficult time
for China to attract international talent.
1012
00:46:16,210 --> 00:46:20,220
Some people will say that the good part is
that we can attract Chinese talents who have
1013
00:46:20,220 --> 00:46:21,530
got a foreign degree, back to China.
1014
00:46:21,530 --> 00:46:22,530
OF: True.
1015
00:46:22,530 --> 00:46:25,090
CC: And they can fill in the gap.
1016
00:46:25,090 --> 00:46:26,690
I don't agree.
1017
00:46:26,690 --> 00:46:29,030
Because we'd just recruit a bunch of losers.
1018
00:46:29,030 --> 00:46:34,190
They can't find a proper job in the UK or
in the USA or in Japan.
1019
00:46:34,190 --> 00:46:35,720
That's the ugly truth.
1020
00:46:35,720 --> 00:46:40,040
OF: The people who want to come back so soon
are the ones who can't find something there.
1021
00:46:40,040 --> 00:46:41,040
CC: Yes.
1022
00:46:41,040 --> 00:46:42,040
OF: Mmm.
1023
00:46:42,040 --> 00:46:46,869
CC: The reason why I understand this, is because
Taiwanese universities experienced exactly
1024
00:46:46,869 --> 00:46:49,210
the same thing 20 years ago.
1025
00:46:49,210 --> 00:46:54,119
OF: See, this is why it's useful to talk to
an historian, right?
1026
00:46:54,119 --> 00:46:55,730
You can see the patterns.
1027
00:46:55,730 --> 00:46:56,730
CC: Yeah.
1028
00:46:56,730 --> 00:47:00,990
OF: Especially your particular field is in
the history of international trade, right?
1029
00:47:00,990 --> 00:47:01,990
CC: Yes.
1030
00:47:01,990 --> 00:47:06,059
OF: So that is so relevant to global geopolitics
these days.
1031
00:47:06,059 --> 00:47:08,160
Are we learning from the past?
1032
00:47:08,160 --> 00:47:09,290
We're not really learning, are we?
1033
00:47:09,290 --> 00:47:13,440
CC: The only thing I can say we learn from
history is that human beings don't learn from
1034
00:47:13,440 --> 00:47:14,440
history.
1035
00:47:14,440 --> 00:47:15,440
OF: Yes.
1036
00:47:15,440 --> 00:47:16,440
CC: Too bad.
1037
00:47:16,440 --> 00:47:17,440
OF: Yeah.
1038
00:47:17,440 --> 00:47:18,440
CC: Too dumb.
1039
00:47:18,440 --> 00:47:22,740
OF: It’s also about policies that they have
enacted, which have had an effect on education
1040
00:47:22,740 --> 00:47:23,859
in the last couple of years.
1041
00:47:23,859 --> 00:47:27,720
And I think it's mainly been in primary and
secondary education, I believe.
1042
00:47:27,720 --> 00:47:31,470
Has there been anything which has affected
tertiary education?
1043
00:47:31,470 --> 00:47:34,550
CC: Right now we can't see the impact.
1044
00:47:34,550 --> 00:47:39,410
But I think it will influence the university
education.
1045
00:47:39,410 --> 00:47:44,390
I think one of the biggest parts - and probably
you have heard - is that the primary school
1046
00:47:44,390 --> 00:47:48,490
or elementary schools don't teach English
any more.
1047
00:47:48,490 --> 00:47:49,930
I understand why.
1048
00:47:49,930 --> 00:47:58,869
Nowadays, when you see a 10-year-old child,
they would spend something like 10 hours a
1049
00:47:58,869 --> 00:48:04,210
week to study Chinese, but they spend like
30 hours on English.
1050
00:48:04,210 --> 00:48:05,210
OF: Thirty?
1051
00:48:05,210 --> 00:48:06,210
CC: 3-0.
1052
00:48:06,210 --> 00:48:07,750
OF: Versus ten on Chinese.
1053
00:48:07,750 --> 00:48:08,750
CC: Yeah.
1054
00:48:08,750 --> 00:48:09,750
OF: Seriously.
1055
00:48:09,750 --> 00:48:18,290
CC: This sort of debate has been discussed
for over 120 years since the signing of the
1056
00:48:18,290 --> 00:48:19,290
Boxer Protocol.
1057
00:48:19,290 --> 00:48:20,290
OF: Is that 1905?
1058
00:48:20,290 --> 00:48:21,290
No.
1059
00:48:21,290 --> 00:48:22,290
CC: 1900.
1060
00:48:22,290 --> 00:48:23,290
OF: 1900.
1061
00:48:23,290 --> 00:48:24,290
CC: Yeah.
1062
00:48:24,290 --> 00:48:29,790
And then people would say that we should stick
to the traditional scholarship, 旧学 [jiùxué].
1063
00:48:29,790 --> 00:48:33,950
Or the new - or advanced - scholarship, 新学
[xīnxué].
1064
00:48:33,950 --> 00:48:36,740
That sort of debate can last forever.
1065
00:48:36,740 --> 00:48:41,619
And of course, you would think of the best
way is that we should value both.
1066
00:48:41,619 --> 00:48:44,310
But trust me, my brain is not good enough.
1067
00:48:44,310 --> 00:48:47,849
I can only focus on very few things, right?
1068
00:48:47,849 --> 00:48:51,690
So I understand why the government is worried.
1069
00:48:51,690 --> 00:48:53,500
Because I am worried.
1070
00:48:53,500 --> 00:48:55,410
How about literary Chinese?
1071
00:48:55,410 --> 00:48:57,480
Personally, I think it is very beautiful.
1072
00:48:57,480 --> 00:49:00,040
How about traditional poetry?
1073
00:49:00,040 --> 00:49:03,890
But they don't really care, they care about
English.
1074
00:49:03,890 --> 00:49:05,540
So I understand why.
1075
00:49:05,540 --> 00:49:06,540
OF: Mmm.
1076
00:49:06,540 --> 00:49:09,710
CC: But you know, the government wants to
do something right.
1077
00:49:09,710 --> 00:49:18,000
But when they made the idea into a policy,
that would go to a very extreme way.
1078
00:49:18,000 --> 00:49:19,569
And then no one can stop it.
1079
00:49:19,569 --> 00:49:22,010
OF: That's so well said.
1080
00:49:22,010 --> 00:49:23,030
Yeah.
1081
00:49:23,030 --> 00:49:27,660
Because you can see the intention, but then
everything is so heavy-handed when it comes
1082
00:49:27,660 --> 00:49:28,660
to the implementation.
1083
00:49:28,660 --> 00:49:29,660
CC: Yeah.
1084
00:49:29,660 --> 00:49:33,630
OF: There are certain provinces where you
always see the implementation is 100%
1085
00:49:33,630 --> 00:49:35,010
CC: Or 120%.
1086
00:49:35,010 --> 00:49:36,010
OF: Right!
1087
00:49:36,010 --> 00:49:37,319
They go overboard.
1088
00:49:37,319 --> 00:49:38,319
CC: Yes.
1089
00:49:38,319 --> 00:49:42,720
OF: When you were teaching me about sinology
and history, we were talking about a time
1090
00:49:42,720 --> 00:49:47,740
when in the West there would be rumours of
the East, and that's how the first ideas of
1091
00:49:47,740 --> 00:49:51,339
China permeated into the Western world.
1092
00:49:51,339 --> 00:49:55,250
It kind of feels like we're going back to
that situation, because so few people can
1093
00:49:55,250 --> 00:49:59,550
actually step foot in China, all I hear from
the West is like “Oh, what's happening in
1094
00:49:59,550 --> 00:50:02,760
that distant mystical land of China?”
1095
00:50:02,760 --> 00:50:08,569
I do hope that at some point, there will be
a recrossing of people from one side to the
1096
00:50:08,569 --> 00:50:12,000
other, because it really sometimes feels like
we're on a different planet here.
1097
00:50:12,000 --> 00:50:15,640
That's the thing where I hope people like
you can still try to bridge that gap.
1098
00:50:15,640 --> 00:50:21,880
CC: I think this is the reason why I took
the job of the Director of the Modern Chinese
1099
00:50:21,880 --> 00:50:25,730
Studies course, which is an international-taught
programme.
1100
00:50:25,730 --> 00:50:28,670
China has a lot of difficult issues.
1101
00:50:28,670 --> 00:50:37,100
We have to be understanding first, and then
we can make our decision or verdict extremely
1102
00:50:37,100 --> 00:50:38,100
cautiously.
1103
00:50:38,100 --> 00:50:42,140
Misunderstanding can be caused by no understanding.
1104
00:50:42,140 --> 00:50:43,140
OF: Mmm.
1105
00:50:43,140 --> 00:50:47,359
I am very grateful that I met you, and that
you have been my professor.
1106
00:50:47,359 --> 00:50:48,359
CC: Thank you very much.
1107
00:50:48,359 --> 00:50:50,980
OF: And that you, of course, came on to the
podcast.
1108
00:50:50,980 --> 00:50:53,980
It was great to talk to you then, and it's
great to see you now.
1109
00:50:53,980 --> 00:50:56,280
I hope that we will continue to stay in touch.
1110
00:50:56,280 --> 00:50:57,280
CC: We will.
1111
00:50:57,280 --> 00:50:58,280
Thank you very much indeed.
1112
00:50:58,280 --> 00:51:01,390
[Catch-Up Interview 2]
OF: Nick, good to see you.
1113
00:51:01,390 --> 00:51:03,190
NY: Nice to meet you.
1114
00:51:03,190 --> 00:51:10,069
OF: I think you have a tough time today to
speak to me in English, because you don't
1115
00:51:10,069 --> 00:51:11,840
use English so much these days.
1116
00:51:11,840 --> 00:51:15,500
NY: Yeah, for almost three years I haven’y
used any English.
1117
00:51:15,500 --> 00:51:16,500
OF: Ach.
1118
00:51:16,500 --> 00:51:20,170
NY: But sometimes I teach English with my
son at home.
1119
00:51:20,170 --> 00:51:21,880
OF: To practice his schoolwork.
1120
00:51:21,880 --> 00:51:22,880
NY: Yeah, yeah.
1121
00:51:22,880 --> 00:51:25,160
That is the only chance for me.
1122
00:51:25,160 --> 00:51:26,160
OF: Ah.
1123
00:51:26,160 --> 00:51:29,420
I’ve put you in a very uncomfortable position
today.
1124
00:51:29,420 --> 00:51:31,130
NY: I try to get back.
1125
00:51:31,130 --> 00:51:32,130
OF: OK.
1126
00:51:32,130 --> 00:51:33,130
You can do it.
1127
00:51:33,130 --> 00:51:38,170
Nick, for people who did not listen to our
original episode, you are two things.
1128
00:51:38,170 --> 00:51:39,170
NY: Mm-hm.
1129
00:51:39,170 --> 00:51:40,170
OF: You are a playwright.
1130
00:51:40,170 --> 00:51:41,170
NY: Yeah.
1131
00:51:41,170 --> 00:51:44,180
OF: And you are the Director of the Shanghai
Dramatic Arts Centre.
1132
00:51:44,180 --> 00:51:45,200
NY: Yeah.
1133
00:51:45,200 --> 00:51:51,630
OF: So I remember we had a catch-up - that
was already, I think, 18 months ago - the
1134
00:51:51,630 --> 00:51:56,080
catch-up was in ‘COVID One’, now we are
‘COVID Two’
1135
00:51:56,080 --> 00:51:57,180
NY: Yeah.
1136
00:51:57,180 --> 00:52:03,020
OF: And last time - I wasn't surprised, because
you write and write and write - but last time
1137
00:52:03,020 --> 00:52:10,109
you said that during the first lockdown in
2020, I think you finished five plays.
1138
00:52:10,109 --> 00:52:12,049
You also finished your PhD?
1139
00:52:12,049 --> 00:52:13,660
NY: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
1140
00:52:13,660 --> 00:52:16,130
Oh yeah, I got my memory back.
1141
00:52:16,130 --> 00:52:17,180
OF: Yes.
1142
00:52:17,180 --> 00:52:18,540
So what happened this time?
1143
00:52:18,540 --> 00:52:20,240
Did you also write many plays?
1144
00:52:20,240 --> 00:52:22,130
NY: I wrote three plays.
1145
00:52:22,130 --> 00:52:25,510
Two of them will be produced this year.
1146
00:52:25,510 --> 00:52:32,260
But we have several plays that we already
have planned to put on the stage.
1147
00:52:32,260 --> 00:52:34,000
For example, a musical.
1148
00:52:34,000 --> 00:52:38,799
We want to do 200 performances, almost a half-year
run.
1149
00:52:38,799 --> 00:52:39,799
OF: Wow.
1150
00:52:39,799 --> 00:52:40,799
NY: Yeah.
1151
00:52:40,799 --> 00:52:41,799
So that is a big plan for our theatre.
1152
00:52:41,799 --> 00:52:43,809
I think the audience still need the theatre.
1153
00:52:43,809 --> 00:52:44,809
OF: Yeah.
1154
00:52:44,809 --> 00:52:46,740
NY: They need to go to the theatre in person.
1155
00:52:46,740 --> 00:52:47,740
OF: Yeah.
1156
00:52:47,740 --> 00:52:48,920
It's an intimate, enclosed environment.
1157
00:52:48,920 --> 00:52:50,050
NY: Yeah.
1158
00:52:50,050 --> 00:52:56,710
A private space, to think about situations
you’ve never encountered in your life.
1159
00:52:56,710 --> 00:53:00,299
But you can imagine it in the theatre, in
that place.
1160
00:53:00,299 --> 00:53:03,250
So I think that is why the audience go to
the theatre.
1161
00:53:03,250 --> 00:53:04,250
OF: Yeah.
1162
00:53:04,250 --> 00:53:06,410
What about then the content?
1163
00:53:06,410 --> 00:53:13,359
Because I remember when we talked last time,
you said that during 2020 what was popular
1164
00:53:13,359 --> 00:53:15,339
back then was stand-up comedy.
1165
00:53:15,339 --> 00:53:16,339
NY: Yeah, yeah.
1166
00:53:16,339 --> 00:53:18,290
OF: Which was quite new in China.
1167
00:53:18,290 --> 00:53:19,290
What about this time?
1168
00:53:19,290 --> 00:53:23,480
Have you seen certain content, certain genres,
being more popular?
1169
00:53:23,480 --> 00:53:25,359
NY: Musicals.
1170
00:53:25,359 --> 00:53:29,140
Almost every week there’s a new musical
coming out.
1171
00:53:29,140 --> 00:53:31,450
Before, I never thought that would happen.
1172
00:53:31,450 --> 00:53:34,250
But that suddenly happened.
1173
00:53:34,250 --> 00:53:37,670
Because musicals from overseas cannot come
to China.
1174
00:53:37,670 --> 00:53:38,670
OF: Yeah.
1175
00:53:38,670 --> 00:53:40,280
I mean, I hope it bounces back.
1176
00:53:40,280 --> 00:53:44,839
And I'm really glad to at least see that you're
being productive; there is creativity happening
1177
00:53:44,839 --> 00:53:47,630
in Shanghai; and there is optimism.
1178
00:53:47,630 --> 00:53:49,940
At least, let's see what happens in the future.
1179
00:53:49,940 --> 00:53:50,940
NY: Yeah.
1180
00:53:50,940 --> 00:53:54,319
OF: Thank you so much again, for being part
of this Mosaic family.
1181
00:53:54,319 --> 00:53:55,319
NY: Thank you.
1182
00:53:55,319 --> 00:53:57,320
OF: I hope that every year we have a chance
to say hello.
1183
00:53:57,320 --> 00:53:58,320
NY: Thank you.
1184
00:53:58,320 --> 00:53:59,320
I wish too.
1185
00:53:59,320 --> 00:54:00,320
Yeah.
1186
00:54:00,320 --> 00:54:01,320
OF: Thanks so much Nick.
1187
00:54:01,320 --> 00:54:01,820
NY: Thank you.