Mosaic of China with Oscar Fuchs: Bonus Episode from The Bridge (CGTN)

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[Trailer]
OF: Oh my god, I was being indoctrinated!

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[Intro]
OF: Welcome to Mosaic of China,

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a podcast about people who are making their 
mark in China. I’m your host, Oscar Fuchs.

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If you heard the last show, you will already 
know that I’ve been down with COVID-19 for the

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first time. I was very sluggish and low energy 
for a couple of weeks, and then I managed to go

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travelling for a short trip, and now I’m back 
in Shanghai and feeling almost back to normal.

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So the good news is that I’m finally back 
to work on the next few episodes coming up.

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The bad news is that I’ve fallen quite far behind 
in my production schedule, so today is not a full

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episode. But I have some bonus content in the 
form of an interview that I did on another podcast

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called The Bridge, which is hosted by Beijing 
residents Jason Smith and ‘Beibei’. The Bridge

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is a show produced by CGTN, one of the state-run 
news networks here in China. So it’s not quite as

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independent as Mosaic of China, and I decided 
to hold my tongue a little bit at some points.

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But in general it’s a fun show, they do a good 
job, and we cover some different ground from other

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interviews that I’ve done recently. So I’m happy 
to share an edited version in the feed today.

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The full version was a lot longer, so if you want 
to hear that please head to The Bridge wherever

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you listen to podcasts, where I think you’ll find 
my episode was released some time back in April.

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As for Mosaic of China, there are still 
8 great episodes left in Season 03,

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so while you’re listening to today’s 
show I’m going to head back to work,

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and I hope to see you back 
here soon with Episode 23.

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[Main]
JS:

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Today we are joined by a fellow podcaster 
who interviews folks who are making their

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mark in China. In August 2019 Oscar 
Fuchs launched ‘Mosaic of China’,

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a lighthearted English-language podcast. Oscar 
has also co-founded a Singapore-based headhunting

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company. He's lived three years in Japan, one 
year in Germany, six years in Singapore, three

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years in Hong Kong, and seven years in China's 
mainland. He is a British national and currently

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resides in Shanghai. He earned a Master's degree 
in Chinese Philosophy from Shanghai 交通 [Jiāotōng]

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University. We'll never hear the end of it 
from Beibei now. Welcome to The Bridge, Oscar.

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OF: Oh my god, you’ve done your research.
JS: My goodness!

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OF: Who is that guy you're describing?
JS: You lived in Germany; you lived in Japan;

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you lived in Singapore; you lived in Hong 
Kong; you lived in Shanghai. Why travelling all

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over the world like this, is just your passion?
OF: Maybe I'm running away from something, right?

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JS: That's not what I was indicating, but…
OF: I guess it's a passion. It's not something

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I ever planned, honestly. I happen to have landed 
in different situations where I just sort of went

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with the flow. And if an opportunity arose, I 
said “Yes”. Where others might have questioned it,

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I just jumped in. That's certainly what happened 
with most of those moves. It sounds really cool

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when you look back over the 20 years, but each 
of those moves were pretty much unplanned.

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B: I want to ask, can you tell other people 
who might be thinking about travelling and

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actually living in foreign countries, 
what to fear and what not to fear? Were

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you ever fearful about going to new places?
OF: I wasn’t. I always liked the adventure.

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And I'm sure there are many people listening who 
feel the same way. But I mean, yes, there are

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always nerves involved. I think if you didn't 
have some nerves, you'd be a bit of an idiot,

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right? You have to have some trepidation. I think, 
if I was to give any advice, it would be ‘people

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are people are people’.
B: Umm.

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OF: Yes, there are different languages; there 
are different customs; there are different

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foods. Even once you know a language, there 
are different ways of communicating which you

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might find strange - maybe too direct, maybe not 
direct enough - but then when it comes down to it,

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everyone is pretty much the same. There are 
people who can stress themselves out thinking “Oh,

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how am I gonna fit into Japan? How am I gonna 
fit into China? I'm gonna have to learn all the

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customs, I’m gonna read all the books.” I mean, 
yes, you can do that. And it's very respectful

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to do it, it's respectful to understand it. It's 
not necessarily the secret to your mental health

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and wellbeing to try and adopt everything. You can 
learn a lot about other cultures. But actually you

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end up learning a lot about your own culture, just 
how it's mirrored through a different culture.

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JS: Absolutely.
OF: You can say “Oh,

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I always thought that's how you do things, and 
now it's being done completely differently. Maybe

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I've been complacent”. If somebody asks you “OK, 
how's it done in your country?” then you've got to

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think about “Yeah, how the hell is it done in my 
country? And why do we do that?” And that's half

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of the fun of this cultural communication. It's 
not just about learning about other cultures, it’s

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about recognising the weird things about yourself.
JS: Yeah, absolutely that's true, it goes both

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ways. I want to change the topic a little 
bit. You did a Master's degree dissertation on

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Confucianism and music. Could you share with 
us a little bit about what are some of the

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points that you made in that dissertation? 
And how is music part of Confucianism?

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OF: This is where I start to get nervous because 
it was a Master's degree, not a PhD guys.

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B: It's part of rites, right?
OF: That's what I would start with. Because

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we have one idea of what music is these days. 
You know, we have our mp3 players or we go to

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music concerts. That's not what music was back in 
the days of Confucius. In the days of Confucius,

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you had no access to music, apart from if the 
local Lord put on some kind of ceremony. Where

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they would drag you from your farm - from what 
you were doing - and they would make you listen

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to this concert, which basically was just a 
variety of different bells. We're talking very,

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very simple music. What Confucianism saw music as 
was a way to bind people together through a shared

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sense of morality and harmony and social cohesion. 
And then later on the other Confucian thinkers,

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they also extended that to a political value and 
a tool for political solidarity and obedience.

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Obedience and power, especially in the Imperial 
era of China. So that's really what Confucianism

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thinks of as music. It definitely has to be 
absorbed in this ritualised context, and it has to

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foment this shared identity and a willingness to 
participate within this prescribed social order.

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JS: Wow, you know actually that doesn't 
sound too dissimilar to a rock concert.

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OF: Exactly. Exactly.
JS: Everyone gets together,

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becomes one mind, you know?
B: Mm-hmm.

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OF: Yes. And you feel the power of something when 
it's given to you through music, much more so than

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if it's delivered just as a boring lecture, right?
JS: Right, absolutely. You could read a poem,

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or you could hear a lyric. People go around 
singing lyrics from songs all the time.

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OF: Exactly.
B: Without even realising it sometimes.

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OF: Yes, it goes into your soul. And especially 
if you have it at school. You know, the songs

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that we learn at school, they're the ones that 
you end up singing 30 years later. And then you

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realise “Oh my god, I was being indoctrinated.”
B: And you didn't even realise what the song was

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all about, until decades later.
JS: Those blasted ‘ABC’s,

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stuck in my head forever…
B: Yeah, and Confucius was so into it,

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and he had a great ability to appreciate music.
OF: You know, even back in the day of Confucius,

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he had such a lot to do with music. Where you 
look at Socrates and Aristotle and all the Western

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thinkers, and actually music wasn't such a big 
component of their thought back then. So there was

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something that Confucius himself thought of, much 
more so than was happening elsewhere. Which I just

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found fascinating. I mean, the guy was right.
B: And I think maybe it's something you said

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about how music hits the soul. Like it's 
at a level that's above logical thinking.

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OF: Hm-mm.
B: Because I think a lot

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of Western ancient philosophers, they were really 
into logical discussions. But Chinese philosophy,

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I feel like it's at a different place. It 
seeks something that's more essential. I mean,

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even for Chinese people, we don't dare 
to study it, because it's so hard.

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OF: Right.
B: So what led you to Chinese philosophy?

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JS: It’s a good question.
B: What happened, Oscar?

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OF: Does the phrase ‘midlife 
crisis’ mean anything to you?

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B: Oh! Sure!
OF: No, no. I mean, what happened was,

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I'd basically been in Asia for 18 years, and I 
realised that I had a very superficial knowledge.

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And it wasn't just philosophy, I didn't know 
all the different dynasties, I didn't know

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anything. And in fact, the course I did, it was 
actually a Master's in Modern China studies,

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with a major in philosophy. So actually, it was 
a mixture of philosophy, history and literature.

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JS: Mm-hm.
OF: So it was the perfect course. Buddhism

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and Confucianism and Daoism, these are things 
that I'd heard for two decades, but never really

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understood what the differences were. But look, 
in general, each philosophy appeals to different

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types of people. So it's extremely pragmatic. So 
for example, if you are someone who is looking

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to become a middle manager in your field, 
then Confucianism will appeal to you, because

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Confucianism is all about taking responsibility, 
how you manage your seniors and juniors,

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basically it's an intellectual pursuit. And then 
if Confucianism, for example, doesn't answer your

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question, then you can dip into another school.
B: Correct. Correct.

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OF: So for example, Confucianism is not very 
heavy on how to manage peer relationships.

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So maybe that's when you dip into a bit of 老子 
[Lǎozi]. And for example, it's not great on how

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to focus on mastering skills. So that's when you 
dip into 庄子 [Zhuāngzi]. It doesn’t say too much

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about how to be a leader or a sovereign: that’s 
when you dip into Legalism, for example. So it's

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not like Western philosophy, where you have one 
school that has to contradict the other school.

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B: Right, right.
OF: That’s actually not

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what happened in Chinese philosophy, right? 
They can sort of layer on top of each other.

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And it's not about one being better than the 
other. It's like one showing you something

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which the other didn’t. Like, a lot of people 
in China, they have nothing to do with Buddhism,

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until they start thinking about their own death. 
And suddenly they think a lot about Buddhism.

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B: Mmm.
OF: And it's the

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way that all of these different schools have kind 
of ‘syncretised’. That word means they've blended

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together in China - especially in modern China 
- where everyone can dip into whichever school

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they want, depending on what they need from it.
JS: Mmm. Well that’s really remarkable that you've

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had such a deep dive into Chinese culture, because 
you've been here a very long period of time. I had

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a question about Singapore. My wife is a huge fan 
of Singapore. And there are a lot of ties between

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China and Singapore. Can you tell us a little bit 
about what is similar and what is dissimilar about

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Singaporean culture versus Chinese culture?
OF: Hmm. Well, the obvious one is the speed

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of progress. I mean, Singapore only had its 
independence within our lifetimes - this is,

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like, in the last 50 years or so - And they've 
gone from a third world country to a first

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world country. I mean, that's very similar to 
what's happening in China right now. I would say

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Singapore is famous for its stable government, in 
fact they've had no changes of government. I think

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there's a similar focus on social order, that's 
for sure. They have a love of food. Oh my god,

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they are constantly eating.
BB: Mm-hm.

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OF: So I think there are a lot of similarities. I 
guess the differences are also pretty obvious. I

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mean, the size. Singapore is just one city. And I 
think that allows it to experiment in this petri

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dish. Of course, China looks to Singapore and 
sees what they've done, and they’ve tried to take

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certain things and expand it to China.
JS: You've travelled around in

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China? Where have you been?
OF: Yes. I mean, especially these

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last few years, when none of us really could 
go anywhere else. So up to 黑龙江 [Hēilóngjiāng];

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and then across to 甘肃 [Gānsù]; down to 云南 
[Yúnnán]; 贵州 [Guìzhōu], another good place…

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B: Was there like work 
involved? Or you were just like…

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OF: Yeah, some of them were to do with the 
podcast. So it does allow you to see a city

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from a tourist angle, but then you get to 
know one layer underneath when you interview

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someone from that city. That's been great. 
A lot of tourism as well. Just when things

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get tough in your city, It’s always nice 
to try and find countryside, especially.

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B: Right.
OF: When you live in

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an urban jungle like Beijing or Shanghai.
B: Can I go back to philosophy for a bit?

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JS: Sure, absolutely!
B: I felt like I didn’t have enough of a dose..!

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JS: More philosophy!
B: Maybe not about

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the philosophy in itself. But spending a 
year or two studying Chinese philosophy,

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did it help you to understand China better?
OF: I think it put into words the things that

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I had already noticed and experienced on a 
visceral level. It's about the way that China

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perceives the world; the way that the world 
perceives China; the prism which both sides

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are looking through, when they are trying 
to understand each other or purposefully

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not understanding each other. The language 
to really think about that in a deeper way,

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as opposed to just pulling my hair out as to the 
state of the world these days. I guess that's the

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way I would answer your question.
B: We’ll soon have no hair left.

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OF: Yeah!
B: Seriously.

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JS: Well, thank you so much 
for joining the show. Oscar.

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B: Are we wrapping up now?
JS: We are wrapping up, Beibei.

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B: Oh, OK.
OF: Thanks, Beibei. Thank you, Jason.