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You're listening to Everything Out There with your host, Steve Stockton.
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Hello, friends. Hello, hello. Once again, and welcome to Everything
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Out There on the Clyde Lewis Ground Zero Radio Network.
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I'm your host, Steve Stockton. Welcome in. Tonight, joining me
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on the phone, a friend of mine for many years,
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You might know her from her work on Caravan of
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Lore or some of the scripts she wrote and narrated
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for me over on my 13 Past Midnight YouTube channel.
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Or you might know her from her work with Seth
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Breedlove's Small Town Monsters. And she's also a classics professor
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at Kent State University. Welcome, Heather Mosier. Heather, come on in.
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Hi, thanks for having me. I'm so excited to be here.
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Yeah, nice to have you here on the phone with
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us tonight. So what's going on in your world? I
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haven't seen you in probably been over a year. You
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and Seth showed up in New Mexico in the Four
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Corners area and filmed me for a documentary we're working on.
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What's happened since that transpired? Yeah, yeah.
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We showed up and we kidnapped you for a little
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bit so that you could tell us some stories. Well,
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let's see. That does seem like a long time ago.
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We have been. filming other films, filming other movies, and
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the one that you're in, American Werewolves 2, which it
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should have been out by now, but then we had
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an issue with our distributor, so it's kind of been
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put on the back burner. It should be coming out, though,
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very soon. I don't think I'm allowed to say yet,
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but we have an official date now, so it'll be
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within the month.
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Um i'm looking forward to that i've been expecting my
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copy in the mail just any time i'm anxious to
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see how it turned out but it was great uh
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meeting seth and the crew and getting to meet you
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in person finally.
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Yes yes it was great to finally meet you um
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let's see we went to british columbia and we filmed
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there for um on the trail of bigfoot uh the
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origins So we've done that right now we're in the
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midst of, and this is about the only thing that
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has my brain occupied at the moment. We're in the
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midst of our Kickstarter and that takes up all of
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February for us. Um, so that's the biggest thing right now,
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trying to get our Kickstarter, uh, funded as much as possible.
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And that'll help get us through the year.
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Yeah. And I saw the notification on Facebook. I'll put
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a link to that in the show notes for the
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Kickstarter there. And, uh, everybody go pledge your support to
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that it's a great franchise they've got going there how
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many are they up to now with the small town
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monsters series.
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Uh like how many how many movies you mean yes
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oh my goodness well i don't know it's got to
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be close to 20 at this point if not more
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um i don't have the number off the top of
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my head but it's it's a lot.
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Yeah i know it's out there and then this the
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A great, great canon of work there. I've only seen
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a few of them, but they're all just incredible movies
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and really looking forward to see the one that I'm in. Now,
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is that going to be premiering like at some film
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festivals and things like that or some conferences, paranormal conferences,
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or are you allowed to say?
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So American Werewolves 2 did actually premiere last fall in
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Kentucky to an audience and it was very well received
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and But as of right now, it's not scheduled for
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any premieres now.
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Okay. That's still good to hear, though. At least it's
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out there and it did get good reception. And hopefully
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nobody laughed at my part too hard.
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Absolutely not. And our Kickstarter backers, they've had access to it.
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And it's gotten good reviews from them as well. So
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that's the other bonus of Kickstarter backing is that you
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get access to our films. Even if we have issues
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with the distributor, you get access to the films early.
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Yeah. And I've worked some in film and getting that coverage.
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right away to see how it plays. That's just invaluable.
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You can kind of think of those people as your
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test audience, if you will.
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Yep. Definitely.
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So let's just start at the beginning here. Like I said,
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you wrote and narrated some things for me over on
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my 13 past midnight channel, which is still on hiatus.
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I'm going to be bringing it back, but I'm back
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on Missing Persons and Mysteries. I now own that channel.
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So that's getting a lot of my time and attention.
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Just under 275,000 subscribers over there. And then in the interim,
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I started among the missing, and I've gotten, I think, 104K,
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105K over there now. So I've been a busy guy.
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I just published my 20th book this last year, if
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you count the one that Cisco and I co-wrote. And
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I had a couple other co-writers in there on some
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of these recent ones. But yeah, no moss growing under
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this Rolling Stone, so.
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And that's good. That's good.
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Well, thank you. But what garnered your interest in the paranormal?
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Did it start like so many of us in early
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childhood or were you a late bloomer when it came
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to all things dark and scary or what's your personal story?
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Oh, it definitely started whenever I was young. It's very,
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very much tied to what was on TV at a
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very young age. Unsolved Mysteries was something that was on
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the TV every week. And that garnered my attention. almost
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like a morbid curiosity to a certain extent. I remember
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very vividly an episode about the Yeti and being afraid
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of the Yeti as a result of that. Also spontaneous
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human combustion was one of the episodes. And I had
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this unrealistic fear that that was going to be how
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I'd meet my demise at some point in my life.
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Oh yeah. That one always scared me too. I remember
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reading about that when I was a kid, probably in the,
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one of those readers digest tales of the paranormal books,
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or maybe even the time life library had the picture
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of the lady there that I think her leg was
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all that was left. Uh, a burn mark on the chair.
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And that used to scare the daylights out of me.
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I'm like, what if I spontaneously combust that and quicksand
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now I'm a little bit older than you are maybe
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a lot older than you are. But, uh, if you
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watch TV in the late sixties and the early seventies,
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particularly Westerns, quicksand was a thing. And it got a
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lot of people. And, uh, Almost got some of my heroes,
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Daniel Boone and his son Israel and Davy Crockett and Gunsmoke.
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People are always getting in quicksand. But yeah, SHC, Spontaneous
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Human Combustion, Bigfoot. I used to actually go out looking
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for Bigfoot when I was a kid. I don't know
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what I would have done if I'd found one.
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That's a great question. What would you?
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I've wondered about that. These people that go out looking
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for it and they play the mating calls and stuff. Well,
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what if that works and all of a sudden an
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amorous Bigfoot comes charging out of the woods? Do you run?
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Do you stay and take one for the team? Or
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what would happen in that situation? I've often wondered about that.
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Yeah, things to think about for sure. Another thing, you
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mentioned quicksand. I do remember also being extremely afraid of
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the Bermuda Triangle, even though I have yet to go
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over the Bermuda Triangle. I was positive that if I did,
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I would disappear. That was another thing that was very
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common when I was younger.
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Charles Burlitt's book about that was out in that era anyway.
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And yeah, that one frightened me. I've yet to fly
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over it as well. I've been in the edge of it,
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but that's about as close as I want to get.
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But in some of my research and things that I've done,
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there are a lot of triangles out there. They are
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all over the place. Here in New England, where I'm at,
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you've got the Bennington Triangle. Then you've got the Nevada triangle.
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There's an Alaskan triangle. There's one in Northern California. What
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is it with triangles? Maybe you can enlighten us from
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your work as a professor there and then look back
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into history or maybe even prehistory. Is there something mystical
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about the triangle?
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Well, it's one of the strongest shapes, right? We've got
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pyramids and We're always fascinated by those and how they
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were even built. But with these triangle areas, it seems
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to be that you've got a conglomeration of sightings in
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one area. And I think just human nature, we're like, okay,
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where are the outer limits of this? Let's make three points.
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And oh, it's a triangle. It also sounds a lot
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better than like the Bridgewater Rhombus or something.
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Yeah, or the Alaskan dodecahedron or something like that. Yeah. Right.
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There's something about those, those being able to find three points.
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And I know it's always easy to connect the dots
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in reverse, but it does appear to be within a boundary.
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And again, there is a mysticism with the triangle, you know,
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from a mathematical perspective and then from an alchemical and
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metaphysical perspective, but there's a lot of those pesky triangles
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out there and I hope I don't get caught in
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any of them.
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Well, and that's the, One of the things over at
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Small Town Monsters that we've started in the last, at
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this point, it's been a couple of years now. We
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started a publishing company and one of our early books
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was the Texas Dogman Triangle by Aaron Deese. And that
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the whole idea of the Dogman Triangle came about after
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Aaron had accumulated all of these stories through historical and
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modern day times and realize, oh, wait, they're pretty concentrated
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in an area. And look, lo and behold, there's three points.
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Let's make that the Texas Dog Man Triangle.
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I find that fascinating. I haven't. heard anything about this.
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I'll definitely have to read that book. Can you elaborate
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on that a little bit without giving too much of
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the book away?
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So the Texas dog man triangle, the points are roughly
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around Dallas, Fort Worth, San Antonio and Houston. So it's
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a pretty decent size triangle, but Then again, Texas is massive,
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so it really isn't that big on the general scale
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of things. But yeah, there are stories back from even
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the 1800s of these creatures that are bipedal, canine, half human,
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half canine creatures that have been aggressive. They're very rarely,
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I mean, you just don't hear stories necessarily about them
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being something that you want. to encounter. They're not, I
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don't know, they don't seem as friendly as maybe your
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local Bigfoot. But there's sightings that are accumulated in that
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area between those three points that are historical and modern day.
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And even after Aaron put the book out, which I'm
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sure you can attest to this from being an author
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as well, once you get the book out there, then
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you get more sightings. You get more people coming in
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that have read the book and they're like, actually, I
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live in that area as well, and I had an encounter,
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so his database of sightings has grown since the book
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has come out as well, just kind of adding to, yes,
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this is a definitive area where there seems to be
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a concentration of dogman sightings.
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Yeah, that's been my experience, too. People read the book,
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and then they want to add something to it. Every
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single one of my books, and a couple of them
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have been updated to new editions, but like Strange Things
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in the Woods. That's actually two volumes combined. That was
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originally Strange Things in the Woods and More Strange Things
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in the Woods, my publisher combined them, but I've got
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enough for a second volume of those, and that's just
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Things in the Woods. I mean, there's Strange Things in
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the Water, Strange Things in the Sky, Strange Things on
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the Farm, Strange Things in the City. Strange is a
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relative term there, but People seem to be more aware
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of it. I don't know. Maybe it's just me since
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I've published those books and gone on a lot of
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shows and have my own shows and stuff now. But
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there seems to be just a higher interest in it.
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There was a lot in the 70s, a particular 1973.
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That was a big UFO year. There was a huge
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UFO flap in 73. And even my family jumped on
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that bandwagon. My brother lived on the highest point around
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where we lived. And a lot of like a Friday
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night or Saturday night, we would go over there, get
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lawn chairs, sit out in his yard and watch the skies.
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And we saw anomalous stuff, stuff that made no sense,
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stuff that wasn't airplanes or jets or anything like that.
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But then it all just kind of died down. Those
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things tend to come in waves like that flaps, they
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call them. And I think that's true of anything cryptid
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or paranormal. There seems to be certain times when it's
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more active or more prevalent. And I hear from people
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now that study that side of it, that the veil
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is thin. And that's why, I mean, it's always, it's
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thin around a certain time of year in the pagan
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and Celtic beliefs. But now I've heard people say that
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it's getting thinner all the time, all the time, year round.
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And that's why all this is ramping up. Maybe that's so,
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or maybe it's just with the advent of the internet
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and being able to communicate worldwide with somebody i mean
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you're sitting in ohio i'm sitting in new england but
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we're talking like we're right here next to each other
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um i think it's just it has indeed made the
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world a smaller place and more people are willing to
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share because back like when the strange things in the
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woods a lot of those stories were from uh friends
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of my family and uh people that that my parents
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knew and things like that uh 99 of the people
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in that book have passed on now And they were
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reticent to tell those stories, but to kind of go on,
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I mean, sometimes it was like they had to get
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a log chain and drag it out of them. And
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the one old gentleman, Otto Darrow, he's been passed for
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several years, but he would tell me things when he
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found out I wasn't going to laugh at him or
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make fun of him that he hadn't even shared with
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his wife. She'd be sitting there while we were talking.
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She's like, you never told me that. And he'd, you know,
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have some glib response. Well, you never asked or something
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like that. But I think people are more open to
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talking about it now. And has that been your experience
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with the Small Town Monsters? Is it easier? The longer
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you do it, is it easier to find witnesses to
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come forward and talk about what they see or in
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some cases didn't see?
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Yeah, I think it definitely has helped that we've, I mean,
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Small Town Monsters has been around since Minerva Monster came
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out in 2015. And just the fact that we've been
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around for a while has And people can actually look
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at our body of work and see that we're not
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going to make fun of them has been a boon
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for us as far as getting people to feel comfortable
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talking to us. As a researcher for small town monsters,
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what I've noticed is there are certain cryptids where it's
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a lot easier to get people to talk because it
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is more accepted. Bigfoot, it's a lot easier to get
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people to come forward and tell you that they had
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an encounter with Bigfoot because it just seems to be
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more socially accepted right now. Dog Man is a little iffy,
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but when you get into other things, sometimes UFOs can
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be a little trickier, although that is starting to shift
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as well with everything that's happening in our culture on
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the news. The government's coming forward and saying, yes, there's
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been UFOs or UAPs, rather. That's making it a little easier,
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but I have stories from people that had odd encounters
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of things that don't necessarily, um, fall into the, the
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pop culture look at the, at the strange, if that
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makes sense. And they're more reticent to come forward with anything. So, um,
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and then as far as the movies that we've done,
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it was difficult to get people to American werewolves too,
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that you're in that's titled the skinwalkers. It was very
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difficult to get people to come forward and talk about
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any type of skinwalker encounter. Um, which is not surprising, but, uh,
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I don't think that that stigma is necessarily going away.
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Even if we have shows out there like Skinwalker Ranch, um,
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that is just a cultural thing that isn't going to change.
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Yeah, I agree. And just because of it, they put
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it on TV and put it where it can be
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consumed by a mass audience. I think that raises the
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awareness and gets more people interested in people. Um, I
304
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spoke to a guy not too long ago that, uh, he, uh,
305
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he's finding Bigfoot or something like that, that he'd caught
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an episode of and had no interest in it prior
307
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to that. And then suddenly he's hooked and devouring everything
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he can find about the subject, reading books, watching other shows,
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actually going out in the field and doing some research.
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So I think sometimes it's just that little, little spark that, uh,
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that excites these people like, Hey, I didn't know this
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was out here. And there's all this, uh, work and, and,
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you know, media that you can consume. And, uh, I
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don't know if people like that will stay in it,
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but at least it's, it's nice to have an interest
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in it for a while. Even if you go on
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to something as I'm an old, my personal tastes and interests,
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even in the paranormal change, uh, while I was big
319
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into UFOs as a child, I kind of grew out
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of that, went more into Bigfoot and then from that
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into other cryptids. And, uh, that's kind of what got
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me into the missing people stuff too. And now I'm
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kind of circled back around. I'm coming of another interest
324
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in UFOs, but I like the classic cases. I've got
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a new YouTube channel. It's not very big yet. It's
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only about 3,500 subscribers called From Beyond. And we're looking
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at some of the classic UFO cases. Recently, first episode,
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we covered the Betty and Barney Hill alleged abduction from
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here in New England. The week prior to that, we
330
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looked at Rendlesham Forest, which has been called the UK's Roswell.
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And there's some good stuff out there back during that era,
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you know, before all the abduction tomfoolery and not discounting
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anybody's beliefs or theories or anything there. I spoke at
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a UFO conference and met a lot of abductees that
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they believe what they say. And that gives me, you know,
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the belief in their testimony, I think. But I like
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it when it was, you know, everybody that was men
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from Mars or moon men or, little green men and
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their flying saucers and things before it got beyond that.
340
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So you mentioned UFO or UAP. What do you think
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the reason is for the name change this far into
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the game? Why would they suddenly just start calling it
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a UAP when we've been used to UFOs for decades?
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Well, that is.
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That is a great question. I'm not sure other than
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they're trying to make a broader term perhaps to cover
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more things. Maybe UFOs just seemed outdated for them or
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maybe we're actually behind the times and they don't actually
349
00:19:37.849 --> 00:19:40.250
use that anymore. Maybe they're just throwing us a bone
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and saying, yeah, we called it UAPs while you guys
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are busy calling it UFOs.
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Could be that.
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Now we have another term. Yeah.
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And I had a commenter on one of my live
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streams this week on From Beyond. He said, it's to
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make it harder to search for things in a FOIA request,
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a Freedom of Information Act. I hadn't even thought about that.
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I hadn't either. If they're calling it a UAP now,
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but you're looking for UFO information, people that just come
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along and get into it now won't maybe not even
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realize that it UFO was the, the preferred nomenclature before
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it went to UAP. So it could be a little,
363
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that's a good point. Classic mixed direction there. Yeah.
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I would not put it past anybody.
365
00:20:27.500 --> 00:20:30.680
And a full disclosure. Do you think that it's coming
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or do you think we'll ever find out for sure?
367
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Or is it just too immersed, too hidden? from view
368
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that to ever be revealed, because that would destroy a
369
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lot of, uh, paradigms, if you will, if we did
370
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get full disclosure in the way that people expect, what's
371
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your thoughts on that?
372
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Um, I think that that is definitely a concern that
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it would cause issues, especially in the religious community, but, um,
374
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I feel like at some point it'll just be, um,
375
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I think on down the line, not anytime, probably not
376
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in my lifetime, but I think that it'll just, it'll
377
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be something that they can't deny anymore. And we will
378
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all know, we may not know the extent of anything or,
379
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but I don't think that we're going to be able
380
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to live forever with this, with blinders on that there's
381
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nothing else in the universe except us. So I think
382
00:21:30.630 --> 00:21:33.119
it'll come out eventually. I think it kind of, it'll,
383
00:21:34.039 --> 00:21:37.859
it'll probably be a situation where the government's hand is forced,
384
00:21:38.579 --> 00:21:42.559
so to speak. That would be my guess.
385
00:21:46.160 --> 00:21:48.680
Yeah. And I, I agree with that. And I don't
386
00:21:48.720 --> 00:21:51.259
know at this point what it would take to convince everybody.
387
00:21:51.299 --> 00:21:54.289
I mean, there's been people that have been with people
388
00:21:54.329 --> 00:21:57.269
that have had these firsthand experiences and they didn't believe
389
00:21:57.329 --> 00:22:02.299
what they saw. So again, I don't know if one
390
00:22:02.420 --> 00:22:05.109
landed on the White House lawn and came out and
391
00:22:05.140 --> 00:22:10.230
shook hands with people. Oh, that's that's AI generated at CGI.
392
00:22:10.289 --> 00:22:13.990
It's a deep fake or Project Blue Beam. Are you
393
00:22:14.009 --> 00:22:14.930
familiar with that?
394
00:22:15.910 --> 00:22:16.490
I am not.
395
00:22:16.990 --> 00:22:22.339
It's supposedly Project Blue Beam. One word. It's a type
396
00:22:22.440 --> 00:22:24.640
of I don't know if it's an apparatus or how
397
00:22:24.660 --> 00:22:27.599
it works, but it's a militarized thing where they can
398
00:22:27.640 --> 00:22:30.089
project a hologram that you can't tell the difference in
399
00:22:30.119 --> 00:22:33.799
the real thing. And according to which conspiracy theory you
400
00:22:33.819 --> 00:22:36.930
subscribe to, they can beam it straight into your head.
401
00:22:36.990 --> 00:22:39.910
It doesn't even have to be a physical manifestation. They
402
00:22:39.930 --> 00:22:43.230
can cause you to see it in your brain, I guess.
403
00:22:43.269 --> 00:22:46.230
I'm not sure all the ins and outs of it. But,
404
00:22:47.049 --> 00:22:50.460
you know, used to, they say, believe, what was it,
405
00:22:50.500 --> 00:22:52.599
a quarter of what you read and half of what
406
00:22:52.619 --> 00:22:54.819
you see or something. Now we can't believe anything that
407
00:22:54.859 --> 00:22:59.319
we see or hear with all the... AI, I know
408
00:22:59.339 --> 00:23:01.920
a lot of people are scared of it, and it
409
00:23:01.980 --> 00:23:04.339
can cause some problems and things, but I see it
410
00:23:04.400 --> 00:23:07.339
as a tool. It can be beneficial. It's like anything
411
00:23:07.400 --> 00:23:11.680
like that. When my dad was small, people were scared
412
00:23:11.700 --> 00:23:15.890
of electricity. He said he's heard preachers in the pulpit
413
00:23:15.970 --> 00:23:19.609
talk about electricity. You're fooling with something you shouldn't fool with,
414
00:23:19.630 --> 00:23:23.109
and it's going to destroy the world, but yet it didn't,
415
00:23:23.289 --> 00:23:27.170
and it changed everything. I heard the same about nuclear
416
00:23:27.230 --> 00:23:29.869
power and things like that. And then that came to,
417
00:23:30.109 --> 00:23:35.079
you know, what's next? Somebody's going to be afraid of everything.
418
00:23:35.150 --> 00:23:37.420
And there are people that are averse to any kind
419
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of change. And I get that. I don't like, especially
420
00:23:40.619 --> 00:23:43.920
swift and sudden change, but I'm open to new ideas.
421
00:23:44.000 --> 00:23:47.099
But what do you think about CERN and what's going
422
00:23:47.160 --> 00:23:49.349
on over there? Do you think they're tampering with something
423
00:23:49.390 --> 00:23:52.829
they shouldn't ought to, as the saying goes, or what's
424
00:23:52.869 --> 00:23:56.710
your belief on that? Is it changing things like the
425
00:23:56.730 --> 00:23:59.269
Mandela effect. I've heard people attribute that to CERN. What's
426
00:23:59.289 --> 00:24:00.089
your thoughts on that?
427
00:24:00.809 --> 00:24:04.069
That's funny. I didn't realize that people were attributing that
428
00:24:04.089 --> 00:24:08.440
to CERN. No, I think that they're, I don't think
429
00:24:08.460 --> 00:24:10.460
that they're messing with something that they shouldn't mess with
430
00:24:11.460 --> 00:24:17.859
over at CERN. There's, I don't know. This also comes
431
00:24:17.900 --> 00:24:21.500
from more of a personal perspective as well, because there
432
00:24:21.539 --> 00:24:23.509
was someone that went to my school that worked over
433
00:24:23.549 --> 00:24:26.769
at CERN for a while. Um, and like, I knew
434
00:24:26.809 --> 00:24:29.470
him and he was super nice and kind. And I
435
00:24:29.509 --> 00:24:33.970
would like to think that he would have the sense
436
00:24:34.029 --> 00:24:36.930
to not mess with something that he shouldn't mess with. Um,
437
00:24:37.150 --> 00:24:38.750
and that this is absolutely all in the name of
438
00:24:38.809 --> 00:24:44.369
science and furthering our understanding of the universe. So, um,
439
00:24:44.829 --> 00:24:47.230
that would be my, my thought on it. I don't
440
00:24:49.730 --> 00:24:52.309
how horrible if they started to mess with something.
441
00:24:52.750 --> 00:24:57.200
Yeah. I'll put devil's advocate here, though. What if it's
442
00:24:57.279 --> 00:25:00.559
compartmentalized and people that are good and just are working
443
00:25:00.599 --> 00:25:04.099
on this project and don't exactly know what they're working on? Now,
444
00:25:04.119 --> 00:25:07.660
I draw from personal experience. Both my parents were a
445
00:25:07.720 --> 00:25:12.230
part of the Manhattan Project and they had an idea
446
00:25:12.490 --> 00:25:15.680
of what they were working on, the whole of it.
447
00:25:15.750 --> 00:25:18.289
But still, you know, you had this person doing this
448
00:25:18.309 --> 00:25:21.319
and that person doing that. And the people up above
449
00:25:21.599 --> 00:25:23.799
who were coordinating everything, they knew what they were doing.
450
00:25:23.819 --> 00:25:25.500
That's why part of it was in Oak Ridge and
451
00:25:25.539 --> 00:25:27.720
part of it was in Los Alamos. They wanted to
452
00:25:27.759 --> 00:25:31.359
keep those fishable materials separate until they got ready to
453
00:25:31.640 --> 00:25:36.819
arm everything. But there was a lot of people. There
454
00:25:36.839 --> 00:25:43.180
was Clinton Engineer Works prior to ORNL and the AEC
455
00:25:43.339 --> 00:25:50.220
and other organizations. agencies that worked out there. But again,
456
00:25:50.259 --> 00:25:52.799
they knew they were doing something for the greater good,
457
00:25:52.819 --> 00:25:55.059
but they didn't know exactly what they're doing. So if
458
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that many people, I know Creech at that time didn't
459
00:25:57.880 --> 00:25:59.900
even exist. It wasn't on any maps. It was a
460
00:25:59.940 --> 00:26:04.079
city behind a fence and you had guard shacks at
461
00:26:04.140 --> 00:26:06.640
every entrance into town and you had to show a
462
00:26:06.680 --> 00:26:10.099
badge or you didn't get in there. So, but nobody talked.
463
00:26:10.160 --> 00:26:12.099
I mean, it was again, part of the war effort
464
00:26:12.160 --> 00:26:17.269
and your, your silence was necessary. And people got called
465
00:26:17.349 --> 00:26:21.089
on that. I've heard about people that attended dances inside
466
00:26:21.130 --> 00:26:23.569
the fence and maybe whispered to their date about something
467
00:26:23.589 --> 00:26:25.990
they were working on. And then it was found out
468
00:26:26.029 --> 00:26:29.730
that they had, again, talked a little more than they
469
00:26:29.769 --> 00:26:32.630
should have. And they were chided for that if not
470
00:26:33.029 --> 00:26:36.369
fired or you could be arrested. My dad, he talked
471
00:26:36.430 --> 00:26:38.450
about some of the documents and things that he had
472
00:26:38.470 --> 00:26:41.529
signed even far into retirement. He said there were certain
473
00:26:41.589 --> 00:26:45.029
things that are classified and that are still classified. that
474
00:26:45.049 --> 00:26:48.549
he wouldn't be able to talk about ever unless he
475
00:26:48.890 --> 00:26:51.829
could lose his pension and his insurance and all that stuff.
476
00:26:51.849 --> 00:26:54.390
So those people, but again, they understood they were doing
477
00:26:54.410 --> 00:26:55.559
it for the greater good.
478
00:26:56.460 --> 00:26:59.279
Sure. Or at least that's what they were told.
479
00:26:59.640 --> 00:27:04.799
Yeah, that's what they were told. And I know it's
480
00:27:04.839 --> 00:27:08.359
just astounding. And then another conspiracy theory that that gave
481
00:27:08.380 --> 00:27:12.259
me particular insight into was Project Paperclip. And I've heard
482
00:27:12.299 --> 00:27:14.359
people debunk that and say, oh, that didn't happen. It
483
00:27:14.400 --> 00:27:17.779
doesn't exist. But yet my dad, who was a scientist
484
00:27:17.839 --> 00:27:21.839
at Oak Ridge National Laboratory, he worked right alongside some
485
00:27:21.859 --> 00:27:24.839
of those German scientists that were brought over after the war.
486
00:27:25.759 --> 00:27:29.680
And personal story, I went to school, elementary school with
487
00:27:29.740 --> 00:27:34.440
a kid who was from Germany. And I went home
488
00:27:34.839 --> 00:27:39.000
with him after school one day. And his dad was
489
00:27:39.059 --> 00:27:42.359
a scientist out there as well. spoke fluent German and
490
00:27:42.799 --> 00:27:45.440
the kid my age spoke English. His dad had a
491
00:27:45.460 --> 00:27:49.109
heavy accent. But we were down in the basement. They
492
00:27:49.150 --> 00:27:51.410
had like a rec room. That was the big thing
493
00:27:51.490 --> 00:27:54.910
to have downstairs in the 70s was a family room
494
00:27:54.930 --> 00:27:56.970
or rec room. He's like, come here, I want to
495
00:27:57.009 --> 00:28:00.450
show you something. And I'm like, okay. And he pushes
496
00:28:00.589 --> 00:28:04.470
on the paneled wall back there and it swings open.
497
00:28:04.509 --> 00:28:05.990
And I thought, okay, he's going to show me a
498
00:28:06.039 --> 00:28:09.829
bomb shelter, a lot of houses built there. after the
499
00:28:09.869 --> 00:28:12.009
war had a bomb shelter and because of the Cold
500
00:28:12.049 --> 00:28:15.039
War and all that going on. Right. And I thought, OK,
501
00:28:15.099 --> 00:28:16.660
he's going to show me his bomb shelter. We didn't
502
00:28:16.680 --> 00:28:19.140
have one, but I knew other kids that had a
503
00:28:19.180 --> 00:28:21.579
bomb shelter in their basement. So he opens it up
504
00:28:21.640 --> 00:28:24.480
and he flicks on the light. And here is the
505
00:28:24.740 --> 00:28:28.829
biggest display of German war memorabilia that I have ever
506
00:28:28.910 --> 00:28:33.609
seen before since. And what kind of his glass or
507
00:28:33.650 --> 00:28:37.990
plexiglass case there was a uniform, a very high ranking uniform.
508
00:28:39.130 --> 00:28:42.609
I said, wow, your dad really loves his war memorabilia.
509
00:28:43.089 --> 00:28:45.730
And he said, Steve, you don't understand. He said that
510
00:28:45.809 --> 00:28:50.579
was his uniform. So he had this little shrine to
511
00:28:50.640 --> 00:28:53.980
the fatherland in his basement, yet he was out working
512
00:28:54.259 --> 00:28:58.099
at the British National Laboratory right alongside my dad. So
513
00:28:58.140 --> 00:29:02.930
that project paperclip is not a myth. So again, you
514
00:29:03.029 --> 00:29:05.190
never know. There's a lot of people that keep a
515
00:29:05.230 --> 00:29:06.329
lot of secrets out there.
516
00:29:06.539 --> 00:29:10.279
Yeah, the compartmentalizing thing, I mean, I understand it, but
517
00:29:10.460 --> 00:29:13.460
it's also, it's scary to think that way, to think
518
00:29:13.529 --> 00:29:15.470
about all the things that people may be working on
519
00:29:15.509 --> 00:29:17.710
and not knowing the full extent of it and then
520
00:29:17.829 --> 00:29:22.390
what the actual purpose is behind it on a larger scale.
521
00:29:24.109 --> 00:29:26.970
And then you have places like Area 51, you know,
522
00:29:26.990 --> 00:29:29.859
where there's things going on that, again, everybody there doesn't
523
00:29:29.880 --> 00:29:31.339
know what they're working on, but then you have a
524
00:29:31.380 --> 00:29:34.759
whistleblower like Bob Lazar. What do you think of his testimony?
525
00:29:34.920 --> 00:29:37.190
Do you think that he's On the up and up
526
00:29:37.230 --> 00:29:40.950
or has he just found a way to opportunize all this?
527
00:29:42.619 --> 00:29:47.740
I was actually just watching Bob Lazar last night, watching
528
00:29:47.799 --> 00:29:56.480
his interview with Joe Rogan. I would say that if
529
00:29:56.619 --> 00:29:58.660
he's not being truthful, he's come up with a lot
530
00:29:58.700 --> 00:30:02.339
of A lot of details. That make it extremely believable.
531
00:30:04.460 --> 00:30:09.359
Like I. This is just first. First glance at these things.
532
00:30:09.660 --> 00:30:15.160
I did not detect. Him lying about anything. From that
533
00:30:15.200 --> 00:30:19.779
interview anyway. Because there were just too many. Like I
534
00:30:19.799 --> 00:30:21.869
said too many nuances. That he had in there. He's
535
00:30:21.900 --> 00:30:27.170
either a fantastic storyteller. Or a great liar. Or he's
536
00:30:27.190 --> 00:30:27.710
telling the truth.
537
00:30:29.319 --> 00:30:31.680
That was my takeaway from that, too. He believes what
538
00:30:31.720 --> 00:30:35.309
he's saying or seems to. Right. Yeah. I can say
539
00:30:35.349 --> 00:30:39.609
that of a lot of in the UFO culture things.
540
00:30:39.690 --> 00:30:45.049
I've heard Travis Walton speak and saw him at a
541
00:30:45.069 --> 00:30:48.200
conference and listened to him speak. He believes what he says.
542
00:30:48.279 --> 00:30:50.140
He believes that that's what's happened to either that or
543
00:30:50.180 --> 00:30:53.099
he's the greatest actor that we've ever seen or the
544
00:30:53.140 --> 00:30:56.200
most accomplished liar ever. And there's a lot of people
545
00:30:56.259 --> 00:30:58.960
like that. Even Whitley Strieber, I've heard him speak before.
546
00:30:59.319 --> 00:31:02.019
I don't think he does the conferences anymore. At least
547
00:31:02.059 --> 00:31:05.029
he doesn't do them in Las Vegas because the casinos
548
00:31:05.150 --> 00:31:08.230
don't enforce a no smoking policy or they didn't when
549
00:31:08.309 --> 00:31:11.450
I was there. But I believe that he believes what
550
00:31:11.470 --> 00:31:13.589
he saw. Yeah, he made a fortune off books and
551
00:31:13.609 --> 00:31:16.450
movies and things, but I think he is telling the
552
00:31:16.490 --> 00:31:19.430
truth as he knows it about those experiences he has
553
00:31:19.519 --> 00:31:21.480
with starting with communion and beyond.
554
00:31:21.500 --> 00:31:25.950
I think that's a good way to put it. that
555
00:31:25.990 --> 00:31:28.190
they it's the truth is they believe it.
556
00:31:29.690 --> 00:31:32.289
Yeah and that's like with my own experiences I've had
557
00:31:32.329 --> 00:31:35.750
people try to debunk stuff that I've seen like you
558
00:31:35.769 --> 00:31:37.859
know you didn't see that or that didn't happen or
559
00:31:38.190 --> 00:31:40.579
how could you remember it in that much detail well
560
00:31:40.619 --> 00:31:43.119
that's just the way my brain operates I can remember
561
00:31:43.180 --> 00:31:46.140
things just an infinite detail I've got a near photographic
562
00:31:46.200 --> 00:31:48.539
memory so that's one way I can remember all these
563
00:31:48.559 --> 00:31:51.759
details plus when you have one of those encounters or
564
00:31:51.819 --> 00:31:55.089
experiences it just I don't know, it crystallizes in the mind.
565
00:31:55.130 --> 00:31:59.829
I can go back to any of my several, especially
566
00:31:59.849 --> 00:32:02.170
the really, really scary ones and things, and I can
567
00:32:02.210 --> 00:32:05.549
remember every little detail of everything around me, what I
568
00:32:05.630 --> 00:32:07.869
had for breakfast that day, what was going on, what
569
00:32:07.910 --> 00:32:10.720
I did afterwards. I don't know how I could not
570
00:32:10.759 --> 00:32:13.240
remember all that. And just the fact to me that
571
00:32:13.299 --> 00:32:16.559
I can recall it in that greater detail just shows
572
00:32:16.579 --> 00:32:20.619
to me that it's real. In my mind, I was there.
573
00:32:20.700 --> 00:32:22.460
I know what happened. I know what I saw or
574
00:32:22.500 --> 00:32:26.109
didn't see. or felt or heard and nobody's ever going
575
00:32:26.130 --> 00:32:28.390
to convince me otherwise. Right.
576
00:32:28.730 --> 00:32:31.880
Yeah, exactly. I mean, you were there, you had the experience.
577
00:32:32.650 --> 00:32:32.880
Yeah.
578
00:32:33.019 --> 00:32:34.380
So your memory says you did.
579
00:32:34.500 --> 00:32:36.500
I don't care if anybody believes it or not. You're
580
00:32:36.519 --> 00:32:39.259
like Ripley's believe it or not. This is Stockton's believe
581
00:32:39.279 --> 00:32:43.660
it or don't. I don't, I don't care. That might
582
00:32:43.680 --> 00:32:48.440
be a name for a podcast. I like it. Or don't.
583
00:32:49.859 --> 00:32:52.670
But again, you know, I'm not here to, to, to
584
00:32:52.710 --> 00:32:55.210
win any friends or influence any people. I'm just sharing
585
00:32:55.289 --> 00:32:58.250
what's happened to me and hopefully make it a little
586
00:32:58.329 --> 00:33:01.710
easier for other people to share what's happened with them.
587
00:33:02.009 --> 00:33:03.490
And that was one thing I wanted to ask you
588
00:33:04.210 --> 00:33:06.349
with small town monsters. Have you ever had a showing
589
00:33:06.390 --> 00:33:09.509
of those like in a retirement home or an old
590
00:33:09.589 --> 00:33:14.539
folks home or anything like that? No, but that's, that's
591
00:33:14.579 --> 00:33:16.930
what I do with my books. I like to go
592
00:33:17.000 --> 00:33:20.279
and do a reading and especially with strange things in
593
00:33:20.299 --> 00:33:23.000
the woods or even my strange world. And a lot
594
00:33:23.019 --> 00:33:24.960
of times it'll just be like somebody like, oh, what's
595
00:33:25.000 --> 00:33:27.779
this crap? There's no bingo tonight. And they'll sit there
596
00:33:27.799 --> 00:33:30.000
and they'll do their knitting or their crochet or whatever.
597
00:33:30.019 --> 00:33:32.650
And then they just get up and leave. But usually
598
00:33:33.130 --> 00:33:35.829
there'll be a couple of people hang around after the
599
00:33:35.869 --> 00:33:38.250
reading is over. And I know what's coming up. And
600
00:33:38.390 --> 00:33:41.170
usually it'll be an older gentleman. And he'll sidle up
601
00:33:41.210 --> 00:33:44.170
to me and say, that story you had about the barn.
602
00:33:44.190 --> 00:33:46.180
He said, let me tell you what happened to you
603
00:33:46.400 --> 00:33:48.839
when I, what happened, sorry. Let me tell you what
604
00:33:48.880 --> 00:33:51.430
happened to me when I was a kid. And then
605
00:33:51.539 --> 00:33:53.359
the story just comes out. And maybe, you know, this
606
00:33:53.380 --> 00:33:57.440
guy's been sitting on it for decades. And yet, by
607
00:33:57.480 --> 00:34:00.059
hearing me tell my stories or tell other people's stories
608
00:34:00.119 --> 00:34:02.160
in the case of Strange Things in the Woods, it
609
00:34:02.200 --> 00:34:05.339
frees him up. And otherwise, that story might not have
610
00:34:05.440 --> 00:34:07.569
ever seen the light of day. Maybe he didn't tell
611
00:34:07.589 --> 00:34:08.889
it to anybody. He could have taken it to the
612
00:34:08.929 --> 00:34:12.230
grave with him. And that's part of the commission that
613
00:34:12.289 --> 00:34:14.989
I'm doing here. I'm getting these stories out there so
614
00:34:15.030 --> 00:34:18.309
that they'll live on longer than the people that told them,
615
00:34:18.469 --> 00:34:21.500
like in Strange Things in the Woods. Or longer than me.
616
00:34:21.559 --> 00:34:24.179
I'm hoping, you know, I'm building a legacy here. And
617
00:34:24.199 --> 00:34:28.179
I've encouraged other people to write. Cisco Murdoch, Mark Anthony Wyatt.
618
00:34:29.000 --> 00:34:31.400
There's a lot of stuff here that, you know, I've
619
00:34:31.420 --> 00:34:33.800
kind of been like a Johnny Appleseed to some of this.
620
00:34:33.880 --> 00:34:36.940
But I wonder what kind of response you would get
621
00:34:37.019 --> 00:34:39.860
if you showed those in that type of setting. If
622
00:34:39.920 --> 00:34:42.940
it would scare the pants off those old people. Or
623
00:34:42.980 --> 00:34:45.159
if there would be some that would stick around and
624
00:34:45.539 --> 00:34:48.219
share their stories. You might want to give that a thought.
625
00:34:48.440 --> 00:34:50.159
Mention that to Seth and see what he thinks.
626
00:34:50.969 --> 00:34:54.110
Yeah, that would be really interesting, especially because we are
627
00:34:54.269 --> 00:34:57.610
so close to where like Minerva Monster. I mean, I
628
00:34:57.650 --> 00:35:01.210
live in Minerva, so we're not far at all from
629
00:35:01.250 --> 00:35:03.349
where that happened. So to show that and then see
630
00:35:03.389 --> 00:35:04.550
what their reaction would be.
631
00:35:04.570 --> 00:35:06.489
Yeah. And you could do it in the library. You
632
00:35:06.510 --> 00:35:12.050
could do it in schools. That's another thing. Another undermined segment.
633
00:35:12.389 --> 00:35:15.469
Like I said, old people or senior citizens are one
634
00:35:15.510 --> 00:35:18.039
of our greatest wealths as far as folklore and stories
635
00:35:18.079 --> 00:35:21.780
and things. But another thing. audience that i've found is
636
00:35:21.980 --> 00:35:25.519
the teenagers i go to a skateboard park or anywhere
637
00:35:25.579 --> 00:35:28.760
where teenagers congregate and say hey if if you were
638
00:35:28.780 --> 00:35:30.550
going out on a date and you wanted to go
639
00:35:30.590 --> 00:35:34.869
parking someplace spooky where's the crybaby bridge where's the white
640
00:35:34.929 --> 00:35:37.829
lady walk or the lady in white or whatever and
641
00:35:38.070 --> 00:35:40.530
those they know all those places too i did when
642
00:35:40.630 --> 00:35:44.170
i was a kid right that's true the adults didn't
643
00:35:44.210 --> 00:35:47.190
pass it around like kids did and i think that's
644
00:35:47.250 --> 00:35:50.719
the way a lot of these urban legends and in
645
00:35:50.760 --> 00:35:53.920
the south particularly in the Appalachians there's there's a crybaby
646
00:35:53.960 --> 00:35:57.019
bridge in every little community and I don't know if
647
00:35:57.099 --> 00:36:00.110
it's like a version of the telephone game where somebody
648
00:36:00.119 --> 00:36:02.469
heard it and then just retold it but they added
649
00:36:02.530 --> 00:36:05.250
in a location that their audience would know or if
650
00:36:05.289 --> 00:36:09.829
there's really I mean Texas there's a crybaby bridge there
651
00:36:09.849 --> 00:36:14.050
then the same with the tunnel where the or there
652
00:36:14.090 --> 00:36:15.949
it's a railroad track, I think, where the kids put
653
00:36:15.969 --> 00:36:18.349
their hands on the car and push you over. Oh, right. Yes.
654
00:36:18.590 --> 00:36:21.909
There's a railroad tunnel in the Kingsport, Tennessee. And it's
655
00:36:21.929 --> 00:36:25.469
like that Sensabaugh tunnel. There's just the same stories in
656
00:36:25.530 --> 00:36:29.090
different locations. So it makes me think somewhere, sometime that
657
00:36:29.150 --> 00:36:32.449
really happened and it just got passed around. Another example,
658
00:36:33.030 --> 00:36:35.829
my mom's from East Tennessee. She grew up or was
659
00:36:35.869 --> 00:36:38.630
born in the Cades Cove area, the Smokies, like my grandmother.
660
00:36:39.389 --> 00:36:41.409
And then my dad's from Middle Tennessee over on the
661
00:36:41.449 --> 00:36:44.349
Cumberland Plateau. But a lot of the stories that she
662
00:36:44.389 --> 00:36:46.070
would tell that she heard as a child, he had
663
00:36:46.130 --> 00:36:48.630
heard them as a child as well, even though they
664
00:36:48.670 --> 00:36:52.849
were six years apart, but in a local setting, you know,
665
00:36:52.989 --> 00:36:56.849
hours apart by car. So again, and this was before
666
00:36:56.909 --> 00:36:59.130
the days of, you know, and I guess they could
667
00:36:59.150 --> 00:37:00.849
have heard it on the radio or something, but this
668
00:37:00.889 --> 00:37:03.989
was stories that they told around the wood stove in
669
00:37:04.010 --> 00:37:07.489
the wintertime or in front of the fireplace. But to me,
670
00:37:07.530 --> 00:37:09.789
that's fascinating the way these stories get passed around and
671
00:37:09.809 --> 00:37:11.900
they change. It is, it's like a version of, The
672
00:37:11.920 --> 00:37:13.500
telephone game, did you ever play that when you were
673
00:37:13.519 --> 00:37:13.880
in school?
674
00:37:14.599 --> 00:37:18.920
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Things are vastly different sometimes by the
675
00:37:19.980 --> 00:37:20.500
end of the game.
676
00:37:20.519 --> 00:37:25.900
Yeah, well, you mentioned being there and or near Minerva. Now,
677
00:37:25.920 --> 00:37:29.469
there's something about, you can agree or choose to disagree
678
00:37:29.510 --> 00:37:32.889
with me here, there's something about Ohio in general that
679
00:37:32.929 --> 00:37:36.389
has a strangeness to it, that there's little pockets of
680
00:37:36.449 --> 00:37:38.710
weirdness there, and I mean that in the kindest and
681
00:37:38.750 --> 00:37:39.769
best possible way.
682
00:37:40.309 --> 00:37:42.800
Of that's good.
683
00:37:44.960 --> 00:37:46.840
But um yeah i don't know if you know the
684
00:37:46.980 --> 00:37:51.750
the brothers from the believe all podcast um chris jeremy
685
00:37:51.789 --> 00:37:55.949
and john they're out of ohio and they are among
686
00:37:56.030 --> 00:38:00.010
my three favorite ohioans and they've investigated a lot of
687
00:38:00.050 --> 00:38:03.099
stuff there and realized that there's just something strange.
688
00:38:02.719 --> 00:38:06.320
There yeah yeah i agree i think we've got something
689
00:38:06.360 --> 00:38:10.500
here between the We're in the foothills of the Appalachians.
690
00:38:10.719 --> 00:38:13.610
And then we've got the rivers all around here. I
691
00:38:13.650 --> 00:38:15.690
think when you get the confluence of all of those
692
00:38:15.750 --> 00:38:20.010
things together, plus the history, just the history in the area,
693
00:38:20.030 --> 00:38:23.929
the tribes that were once here, the mountain builders that
694
00:38:23.969 --> 00:38:28.150
were here. Yeah, we've got a lot going on in
695
00:38:28.190 --> 00:38:29.329
this area. That's for sure.
696
00:38:29.349 --> 00:38:33.159
Yeah. And then, of course, you have stuff around the
697
00:38:33.179 --> 00:38:36.039
West Virginia area and the Kentucky areas that goes over
698
00:38:36.199 --> 00:38:43.469
into Ohio. Mothman, Point Pleasant things, and then how that
699
00:38:43.510 --> 00:38:45.670
all connects. But yeah, when I was on their show,
700
00:38:45.690 --> 00:38:47.869
they interviewed me. That's one of my favorite interviews that
701
00:38:47.889 --> 00:38:50.389
I've ever done, if not their favorite. I said to
702
00:38:50.429 --> 00:38:53.409
them that I was sharing some of my Ohio experiences
703
00:38:53.489 --> 00:38:55.860
as a child. And I said, you know, any state
704
00:38:55.889 --> 00:38:59.739
that gave us Dean Martin, Larry Flint, and the Cramps
705
00:39:00.460 --> 00:39:03.260
is a great state. And they laughed at that. You know,
706
00:39:03.360 --> 00:39:05.559
we've had astronauts and presidents and stuff, but.
707
00:39:09.190 --> 00:39:09.449
Yep.
708
00:39:09.849 --> 00:39:12.329
Excuse me, had to clear my throat. But again, that's
709
00:39:12.670 --> 00:39:16.110
just divergent things that I could think of that make
710
00:39:16.170 --> 00:39:19.750
it strange. It's not like it's not your normal state
711
00:39:20.090 --> 00:39:21.969
if there is a normal, but there's just there's an
712
00:39:22.110 --> 00:39:25.409
extra weirdness there that I can appreciate. And it sounds
713
00:39:25.429 --> 00:39:26.199
like you can, too.
714
00:39:26.920 --> 00:39:28.820
Absolutely. Yeah, I'm glad to be here.
715
00:39:30.030 --> 00:39:33.639
Now, uh, Minerva monster, you mentioned that, uh, for those
716
00:39:33.699 --> 00:39:36.219
of listening that might not have heard of that, can
717
00:39:36.239 --> 00:39:38.519
you give us a little background on what the Minerva
718
00:39:38.559 --> 00:39:40.300
monster is? Yeah.
719
00:39:40.360 --> 00:39:43.360
So it's a Bigfoot creature that a Bigfoot creature that
720
00:39:43.380 --> 00:39:44.659
was seen in 1978 in Minerva, Ohio. Um, and, uh,
721
00:39:50.429 --> 00:39:53.769
he made his appearance with the, and why did their
722
00:39:53.809 --> 00:40:00.539
name just escape my, escape my brain? Um, Oh, for
723
00:40:00.579 --> 00:40:04.539
goodness sakes, he made his appearance in Minerva, um, with
724
00:40:04.599 --> 00:40:09.739
a family and they called the local sheriff's department. And
725
00:40:09.780 --> 00:40:11.920
of course people came out and looked and pretty soon
726
00:40:11.940 --> 00:40:15.119
it got in the newspapers. And then without fail, people
727
00:40:15.139 --> 00:40:16.780
were showing up from all over the place to try
728
00:40:16.800 --> 00:40:22.110
to hunt this monster. Um, And, uh, yeah, that was,
729
00:40:22.550 --> 00:40:25.210
I mean, the family faced a decent amount of ridicule
730
00:40:25.230 --> 00:40:29.449
and it wasn't until we had the documentary come out
731
00:40:29.510 --> 00:40:32.320
that some of them actually got a little more, um,
732
00:40:34.719 --> 00:40:37.760
let's see, how do you say like a little more acknowledgement,
733
00:40:38.320 --> 00:40:41.239
I guess things were put, put to peace a little
734
00:40:41.260 --> 00:40:44.650
bit better. Um, when the documentary came out, like, oh, okay. Uh,
735
00:40:45.610 --> 00:40:47.550
I guess maybe that did happen. You guys weren't just
736
00:40:47.610 --> 00:40:50.610
making stuff up. at the time, which why anybody would
737
00:40:50.650 --> 00:40:53.750
make that up. I don't know why anybody would want
738
00:40:53.769 --> 00:40:58.139
that kind of attention, especially then, but that was what happened.
739
00:40:58.159 --> 00:41:00.519
It was in the seventies and there were a rash
740
00:41:00.559 --> 00:41:06.019
of sightings. So it was the Caton family. That's right.
741
00:41:06.039 --> 00:41:10.039
The Caton family. I knew I'd come to me eventually. Yeah.
742
00:41:10.980 --> 00:41:14.150
And I enjoy those stories like they're kind of a one-off.
743
00:41:14.489 --> 00:41:17.210
I mean, I don't know necessarily that that is or not, but,
744
00:41:17.789 --> 00:41:19.989
The things where it just happened over a short period
745
00:41:20.010 --> 00:41:23.409
of time and maybe a handful of people, like here
746
00:41:23.590 --> 00:41:25.940
in New England, in Massachusetts, you have the Dover Demon,
747
00:41:26.420 --> 00:41:30.500
which was basically spotted over two nights in, I think
748
00:41:30.760 --> 00:41:35.780
it was 1977, 78. And then it was just gone
749
00:41:36.000 --> 00:41:39.400
and nobody ever saw anything again. Although now looking back,
750
00:41:39.440 --> 00:41:42.750
there's people that climbed something similar that had been seen
751
00:41:43.349 --> 00:41:46.670
before and since. But the story that I'm familiar with
752
00:41:47.190 --> 00:41:49.329
It just happened. And I love that sort of thing.
753
00:41:49.710 --> 00:41:51.360
I love to go to those places. I'm more of
754
00:41:51.389 --> 00:41:54.739
a legend tripper than I am an investigator. I like
755
00:41:54.760 --> 00:41:56.599
to just go and, if you will, bask in the
756
00:41:56.699 --> 00:41:58.579
ambiance and say, you know, I'm in Dover. This is
757
00:41:58.619 --> 00:42:01.579
where this happened. I have an interesting story about that
758
00:42:01.639 --> 00:42:05.719
back in the 80s. I'd gone to visit a friend
759
00:42:05.760 --> 00:42:09.469
that was going to NYU. And one weekend they said, hey,
760
00:42:09.489 --> 00:42:11.239
we're going to go to this house party. Go with us.
761
00:42:11.690 --> 00:42:13.849
And it was in Massachusetts. It was a good drive.
762
00:42:14.590 --> 00:42:17.440
And ended up we were in Dover. We went to
763
00:42:17.460 --> 00:42:21.300
these people's house out in the suburbs and, uh, and
764
00:42:21.320 --> 00:42:23.699
they're like, so, so Steve, what do you think of Dover?
765
00:42:24.159 --> 00:42:26.099
And I'm like, well, it's, it's different, you know, I'm
766
00:42:26.440 --> 00:42:29.219
Tennessean and it was kind of lost ball and highways
767
00:42:29.260 --> 00:42:31.659
in New York. And even more so at that time
768
00:42:31.820 --> 00:42:34.550
in new England. And I said, Oh, I think it's great.
769
00:42:34.610 --> 00:42:37.190
I said, uh, I've heard about the Dover Damon. They're
770
00:42:37.210 --> 00:42:39.789
like the Dover Damon. And they start yelling for this guy.
771
00:42:39.809 --> 00:42:42.949
They're like, Bill, Bill, come here, come here. And this guy,
772
00:42:42.989 --> 00:42:45.900
and then there was two guys named Bill, one, william
773
00:42:46.039 --> 00:42:48.139
and the other was named bill i don't remember which
774
00:42:48.239 --> 00:42:50.639
one exactly that i met but he was at this
775
00:42:50.679 --> 00:42:53.530
house party in dover and he came out and he
776
00:42:53.730 --> 00:42:55.929
just he seemed kind of embarrassed or kind of humbled
777
00:42:55.949 --> 00:42:57.929
because his friends are making a big deal but i
778
00:42:58.449 --> 00:43:01.409
spoke with one of the witnesses about a year or
779
00:43:01.469 --> 00:43:05.329
two after it happened and again he believed what he
780
00:43:05.389 --> 00:43:08.389
saw sure and i believe it was the one that
781
00:43:08.489 --> 00:43:11.480
drew the initial pictures of and stuff again there was
782
00:43:11.519 --> 00:43:15.590
a bill and a william they were eyewitnesses but don't know, can't,
783
00:43:15.610 --> 00:43:17.449
you know, lost in the midst of time. I was
784
00:43:17.510 --> 00:43:19.889
in college at the time. And, uh, a lot of
785
00:43:19.909 --> 00:43:21.530
that is, uh, in a haze.
786
00:43:23.329 --> 00:43:24.409
I understand. Yeah.
787
00:43:24.449 --> 00:43:25.929
That, um, years after the.
788
00:43:25.909 --> 00:43:29.300
Fact, if you were to come to Minerva now, um,
789
00:43:30.030 --> 00:43:31.900
and you would go past the Caton's house, they still
790
00:43:31.940 --> 00:43:34.059
live in the same house. They they've embraced it. Now
791
00:43:34.099 --> 00:43:37.980
they have a Bigfoot statue outside of their home. Um, yeah,
792
00:43:38.000 --> 00:43:39.039
they'll talk to you about it now.
793
00:43:40.099 --> 00:43:43.199
And I talked about that, uh, It was on this
794
00:43:43.260 --> 00:43:46.739
show or I do a blog called Around the Campfire.
795
00:43:47.159 --> 00:43:48.780
I might have talked about it over there, how a
796
00:43:48.820 --> 00:43:52.989
lot of times communities have learned to embrace these cryptids
797
00:43:53.050 --> 00:43:57.789
or these strange occurrences. And they turn it into something
798
00:43:57.829 --> 00:44:00.469
that's good for the local economy. They sell souvenirs. They
799
00:44:00.489 --> 00:44:04.230
have a festival and they get people talking about it. Like, well,
800
00:44:04.250 --> 00:44:09.389
they have the Mothman Festival and then the Flatwoods Monster.
801
00:44:09.409 --> 00:44:11.909
You know, that's a big deal. I think what better
802
00:44:11.969 --> 00:44:15.469
way to share this than to make it a community-wide thing.
803
00:44:15.489 --> 00:44:18.269
And yeah, it's kind of kitschy with the souvenirs and
804
00:44:18.289 --> 00:44:20.110
some of that, but it's fun and it gets an
805
00:44:20.170 --> 00:44:23.030
interest up. I mean, kids will always remember, you know,
806
00:44:23.050 --> 00:44:25.070
when I was a kid, they took me to the
807
00:44:25.090 --> 00:44:27.329
Mothman Festival, you know, and we saw this and we
808
00:44:27.369 --> 00:44:30.530
saw that. And I think that's a great way to
809
00:44:30.639 --> 00:44:34.599
continue interest in all things weird and spooky.
810
00:44:35.400 --> 00:44:37.059
Oh, I agree. I think it's one of the smartest
811
00:44:37.079 --> 00:44:41.340
things that a community could do, especially right now. It
812
00:44:41.380 --> 00:44:46.300
seems that pop culture is wanting more of these stories.
813
00:44:46.679 --> 00:44:52.440
We're wanting to hear about more monsters and these festivals
814
00:44:52.519 --> 00:44:56.159
are just, they're doing well. So you're not only preserving
815
00:44:56.199 --> 00:44:58.820
the story, you're helping, like you said, helping the local economy.
816
00:44:59.360 --> 00:45:02.059
I don't know what a town like Point Pleasant would
817
00:45:02.079 --> 00:45:03.579
be like without the Mothman Festival.
818
00:45:05.440 --> 00:45:07.940
It's a river town. It'd be a new age mill
819
00:45:07.960 --> 00:45:08.949
town without the mill.
820
00:45:09.159 --> 00:45:09.449
Right.
821
00:45:09.469 --> 00:45:09.639
I see it.
822
00:45:11.159 --> 00:45:14.039
Yeah so um that's one of the best things that
823
00:45:14.059 --> 00:45:15.980
they could have done for their for their town was
824
00:45:16.019 --> 00:45:18.219
to have that mothman festival and have the museum and
825
00:45:18.699 --> 00:45:21.639
really embrace it and not shun it so much um
826
00:45:21.880 --> 00:45:28.239
now there are places where we've been uh louisiana missouri
827
00:45:28.440 --> 00:45:30.500
i believe is the name of the town where momo
828
00:45:30.539 --> 00:45:33.079
was the which was another bigfoot creature in the 70s
829
00:45:33.059 --> 00:45:39.449
1972 i believe um They embraced the story of Momo,
830
00:45:39.690 --> 00:45:42.969
the whole craze of it early on after the initial sightings,
831
00:45:43.409 --> 00:45:45.969
but then have shunned it. So when small town monsters
832
00:45:46.010 --> 00:45:49.530
went over to do the Momo documentary, they were actually
833
00:45:49.570 --> 00:45:52.159
told by some locals, you might as well just leave
834
00:45:52.260 --> 00:45:56.119
because you're not wanted here. But that's another river town
835
00:45:56.179 --> 00:45:57.980
that I think would greatly benefit if they were to
836
00:45:58.039 --> 00:46:00.539
embrace Momo and start to have a festival or something.
837
00:46:02.679 --> 00:46:07.349
Draw people in, bring, bring tourists in. There is something
838
00:46:07.389 --> 00:46:11.829
in cryptid tourism, you know, that and scare tourism, good
839
00:46:11.869 --> 00:46:14.690
ways to bring in money to the local economy and
840
00:46:14.730 --> 00:46:16.969
then to keep the story alive as well. Yeah.
841
00:46:17.590 --> 00:46:19.889
And especially with some of the places now that they're doing,
842
00:46:20.110 --> 00:46:23.519
excuse me, like the overnight ghost hunts and things, those
843
00:46:23.559 --> 00:46:27.059
things would have been demolished or just left to collapse
844
00:46:27.139 --> 00:46:33.119
back into the earth, like Brushy Mountain Penitentiary in Petros, Tennessee.
845
00:46:33.820 --> 00:46:35.679
you know, now you can go there and they've gotten
846
00:46:35.699 --> 00:46:39.010
some wonderful EVPs and experiences and stories out of there.
847
00:46:39.030 --> 00:46:43.949
Some of the true crime locations, the Villisca Axe Murder House,
848
00:46:44.590 --> 00:46:47.570
you know, the Lizzie Borden House, that's a bed and
849
00:46:47.610 --> 00:46:51.550
breakfast now, you know, it's just, it's kind of morbid,
850
00:46:51.639 --> 00:46:56.000
but there's, I think just that's one of our characteristics
851
00:46:56.059 --> 00:46:59.320
as humans. We have an innate curiosity about the darker
852
00:46:59.380 --> 00:47:02.949
side of things and, I'm thankful for that. It's provided
853
00:47:02.989 --> 00:47:05.440
me the opportunity to go to a lot of places
854
00:47:05.519 --> 00:47:07.639
and talk to a lot of people and in front
855
00:47:07.659 --> 00:47:09.400
of a lot of people and, you know, write a
856
00:47:09.420 --> 00:47:14.500
lot of books and things. But yeah, embrace the strange.
857
00:47:15.559 --> 00:47:19.840
Yeah, exactly. And having these places open to the public
858
00:47:19.860 --> 00:47:23.510
allows for the folklore to continue, right? We get to
859
00:47:23.650 --> 00:47:27.530
actually be a part of it morphing and changing like
860
00:47:27.590 --> 00:47:31.070
in real time. something like lizzie borden house or uh
861
00:47:31.389 --> 00:47:34.010
like you mentioned brushy mountain when we're when we're now
862
00:47:34.510 --> 00:47:38.329
it's focused on ghost hunting in the paranormal now that
863
00:47:38.369 --> 00:47:41.130
gets to take on a whole other chapter in the
864
00:47:41.170 --> 00:47:46.460
story of those areas and that's pretty awesome um we
865
00:47:46.480 --> 00:47:49.139
have a place not far from here mansfield reformatory which
866
00:47:49.199 --> 00:47:50.800
is where shawshank redemption was filmed i.
867
00:47:51.539 --> 00:47:54.349
Heard a lot about it have you been there oh Oh, I've.
868
00:47:54.219 --> 00:47:57.219
Been there multiple times. Would you share.
869
00:47:57.039 --> 00:47:58.980
With our audience a little bit of your experiences there?
870
00:47:59.000 --> 00:48:01.360
I've only seen it on TV, but wow.
871
00:48:01.480 --> 00:48:06.539
Sure, sure. Yeah, it's a gorgeous piece of architecture. It
872
00:48:06.960 --> 00:48:09.690
just looks like a castle when you drive up to it.
873
00:48:09.739 --> 00:48:14.289
It's one of my favorite buildings. But the Mansfield Reformatory
874
00:48:14.349 --> 00:48:17.949
is where I had probably the most terrifying encounter that
875
00:48:17.969 --> 00:48:24.210
I've witnessed ever. And it's weird. It's weird to say
876
00:48:24.250 --> 00:48:29.809
terrifying because I wasn't. It's not like a Bigfoot running
877
00:48:29.849 --> 00:48:32.050
out the woods, you know, and trying to eat you
878
00:48:32.110 --> 00:48:33.349
or something. I didn't think that I was going to
879
00:48:33.389 --> 00:48:37.840
die or anything like that. But up in one area
880
00:48:38.119 --> 00:48:42.019
of the reformatory, it's called the West Attic. It is
881
00:48:42.099 --> 00:48:46.960
where once upon a time. OK. When the reformatory was built,
882
00:48:47.039 --> 00:48:49.920
it was built literally as a reformatory, meaning that they
883
00:48:49.960 --> 00:48:52.440
wanted to reform the people that came in there. They
884
00:48:52.480 --> 00:48:54.699
had some issues. They would come in. They'd stay for
885
00:48:54.739 --> 00:48:56.320
a while and then hopefully be able to go back
886
00:48:56.380 --> 00:48:58.639
out to society and join the rest of the world
887
00:48:58.679 --> 00:49:01.019
without an issue. It was never meant to be a
888
00:49:01.059 --> 00:49:05.280
place for like murderers and those who could never go
889
00:49:05.320 --> 00:49:10.460
back to society. But in the early 1900s, the Ohio
890
00:49:10.480 --> 00:49:14.420
State Penitentiary, which is where they had death row, there
891
00:49:14.460 --> 00:49:17.039
was a horrible fire. This was around Columbus, a horrible fire.
892
00:49:17.659 --> 00:49:20.460
And the place burned down. Lots of people died. But
893
00:49:21.679 --> 00:49:24.199
they had inmates then that needed to be rehomed for
894
00:49:24.239 --> 00:49:27.119
a little while until they could rebuild the penitentiary. So
895
00:49:27.159 --> 00:49:29.250
what they did was they shipped some of these hardened
896
00:49:29.269 --> 00:49:32.510
criminals up to Mansfield and they put them in the
897
00:49:32.550 --> 00:49:37.699
West Attic, which is just one massive room. that is
898
00:49:38.119 --> 00:49:42.219
about half the size of the prison itself because it's
899
00:49:42.260 --> 00:49:44.159
all in one wing, the size of one whole wing,
900
00:49:44.739 --> 00:49:46.659
just one big open room. And they shoved all the
901
00:49:46.679 --> 00:49:49.019
guys in there and just kind of left them be
902
00:49:49.739 --> 00:49:54.250
to their own devices. So today, as you can imagine,
903
00:49:54.489 --> 00:49:56.369
from what I understand, the guards didn't even go into
904
00:49:56.389 --> 00:49:58.869
that room. They just kind of let them do their
905
00:49:58.909 --> 00:50:00.570
own thing, but they put them up in the West
906
00:50:00.650 --> 00:50:03.730
attic so that they would be away from the other
907
00:50:04.269 --> 00:50:07.099
criminals that were in the regular cells. They didn't want
908
00:50:07.119 --> 00:50:12.409
the bad influence to infiltrate. So anyway, today, when you
909
00:50:12.429 --> 00:50:15.710
go to Mansfield Reformatory and you're going on a paranormal investigation,
910
00:50:15.769 --> 00:50:17.269
if you go up to the West Attic, what it's
911
00:50:17.369 --> 00:50:21.949
most famously known for is you go and sit. There
912
00:50:21.989 --> 00:50:26.230
are no windows at all in this room. There's just
913
00:50:26.389 --> 00:50:30.199
one door in and out. And you go to the
914
00:50:30.239 --> 00:50:32.159
far end of the room, you sit down and you
915
00:50:32.179 --> 00:50:35.780
just watch. And as you're watching, you'll start to see
916
00:50:36.630 --> 00:50:39.630
like ghost lights start to fly around the room, different colors.
917
00:50:40.670 --> 00:50:44.289
So that in itself is pretty neat. That's one of
918
00:50:44.309 --> 00:50:46.489
my favorite things to see are like the ghost lights
919
00:50:46.510 --> 00:50:50.840
like that. But what happened when we were there, and
920
00:50:51.619 --> 00:50:53.559
this has happened multiple times now that I've been there,
921
00:50:53.579 --> 00:50:55.039
but the first time that it happened, it was the
922
00:50:55.079 --> 00:50:59.380
most stunning, of course. We were sitting there and these
923
00:50:59.440 --> 00:51:01.260
lights showed up and then all of a sudden on
924
00:51:01.340 --> 00:51:05.719
the floor at the far end of the room, this light,
925
00:51:06.670 --> 00:51:10.199
being it's like the opposite of a shadow person like
926
00:51:10.260 --> 00:51:13.739
a shadow person that you see it has the defining
927
00:51:13.760 --> 00:51:16.780
characteristics of a human but it's in shadow except that
928
00:51:16.800 --> 00:51:18.780
was this except it was in light because the room
929
00:51:18.800 --> 00:51:21.559
was completely dark we were sitting there pitch black and
930
00:51:21.599 --> 00:51:27.989
this was illuminated being that was walking back and forth
931
00:51:28.110 --> 00:51:30.269
and it would walk closer to us and it would
932
00:51:30.309 --> 00:51:32.449
get within i have no idea how many feet because
933
00:51:32.469 --> 00:51:34.690
it was dark so it was very difficult to gauge
934
00:51:35.250 --> 00:51:38.300
distance But when it would get fairly close, then it
935
00:51:38.320 --> 00:51:40.500
would drop down on all fours and crawl at you.
936
00:51:41.760 --> 00:51:44.619
And then it would back up, but it would pace
937
00:51:44.659 --> 00:51:48.469
in the room and it was illuminated. It wasn't like,
938
00:51:48.489 --> 00:51:54.070
I mean, it was a self-contained light system, light source,
939
00:51:54.170 --> 00:51:56.469
but it illuminated enough that when it would go by
940
00:51:56.510 --> 00:51:58.659
the wall, you could see the wall start to light up.
941
00:51:59.230 --> 00:52:00.789
So we could tell when it was by the wall.
942
00:52:00.849 --> 00:52:02.550
We could tell when it was by the cross beams
943
00:52:02.590 --> 00:52:04.530
that were in the middle of the room because those
944
00:52:04.570 --> 00:52:10.429
would light up with it. that was terrifying to me
945
00:52:10.690 --> 00:52:15.449
just because that shouldn't exist. Or at least in my
946
00:52:15.489 --> 00:52:18.929
mind shouldn't exist. And so that is the, probably the
947
00:52:19.230 --> 00:52:22.849
most terrified I've ever been on investigation. But after I
948
00:52:22.909 --> 00:52:27.030
had that experience, I was not alone. There were other
949
00:52:27.050 --> 00:52:29.639
people with me. So at least I had other people
950
00:52:29.659 --> 00:52:32.739
to verify what we had all seen. But after I
951
00:52:32.780 --> 00:52:36.429
had that experience, I would go on, different podcasts or
952
00:52:36.469 --> 00:52:39.309
talk to other friends that are in the paranormal community.
953
00:52:39.349 --> 00:52:41.869
And I would try to explain this and no one
954
00:52:41.929 --> 00:52:45.510
seemed to have a similar story. They, they didn't know, like,
955
00:52:45.530 --> 00:52:47.159
I don't know what to call this. I still have
956
00:52:47.219 --> 00:52:52.440
no name for it. And people would talk about it
957
00:52:52.519 --> 00:52:54.860
and want to know if they could see it, if
958
00:52:54.940 --> 00:52:57.840
they went as well. And luckily I was fortunate enough
959
00:52:57.880 --> 00:53:00.280
to go back to Mansfield just a few months ago
960
00:53:00.300 --> 00:53:02.739
and with some friends who had known the story. And
961
00:53:02.760 --> 00:53:04.679
I told them, let's go up to West Attic and
962
00:53:04.719 --> 00:53:07.849
just see if anything happens. You know, I can't guarantee
963
00:53:07.869 --> 00:53:09.650
that you're going to have the same experience as I did.
964
00:53:10.170 --> 00:53:13.869
I don't know. But the night that I saw it,
965
00:53:13.929 --> 00:53:16.269
we were able to see it multiple times throughout the evening.
966
00:53:16.309 --> 00:53:17.929
We would leave and go to other areas of the
967
00:53:17.969 --> 00:53:21.309
prison and then come back and that figure would show
968
00:53:21.369 --> 00:53:24.269
up again. Well, sure enough, a couple months ago when
969
00:53:24.309 --> 00:53:25.969
I was there with a whole new group of people,
970
00:53:26.670 --> 00:53:30.670
they all saw it as well. It manifested again. Um,
971
00:53:30.889 --> 00:53:34.070
they all saw it. They were all equally as nervous
972
00:53:34.130 --> 00:53:36.969
as I was. Um, and they, uh, it would get
973
00:53:37.030 --> 00:53:38.969
close and then a couple of the women would say,
974
00:53:39.010 --> 00:53:42.250
turn the lights on, turn the flashlight on, flashlight on. Um,
975
00:53:42.269 --> 00:53:43.610
and then of course, when the light's on, then you
976
00:53:43.630 --> 00:53:48.840
don't see anything. But, um, that's, uh, that's my scary,
977
00:53:49.059 --> 00:53:52.300
like scariest story from ghost hunting in general, but also
978
00:53:52.320 --> 00:53:54.940
my story from Mansfield. Yeah. Wow.
979
00:53:55.000 --> 00:53:57.039
That's amazing. And if I'm ever in the area, I
980
00:53:57.199 --> 00:53:59.829
definitely want to check it out. Now, did the people
981
00:53:59.889 --> 00:54:03.360
that you were with either time or both times, did
982
00:54:03.400 --> 00:54:05.659
they see pretty much what you saw or was it
983
00:54:05.940 --> 00:54:10.079
different experiences for different people, maybe based on their cognition
984
00:54:10.099 --> 00:54:12.159
or was it a shared experience?
985
00:54:13.059 --> 00:54:15.039
So it's interesting that you asked that the first time
986
00:54:15.059 --> 00:54:18.179
that I was there and the first, the first time
987
00:54:18.219 --> 00:54:20.039
I had that experience, we all seem to see the
988
00:54:20.079 --> 00:54:23.070
same thing because we would sit there and as we're
989
00:54:23.090 --> 00:54:24.610
seeing it, we're like, what are you seeing? What are
990
00:54:24.630 --> 00:54:28.420
you seeing? And asking each other consistently, And everybody's repeating
991
00:54:28.460 --> 00:54:32.300
the same things that they're seeing, the same colored lights,
992
00:54:32.360 --> 00:54:36.849
same action of the figure, and so on. So we
993
00:54:36.889 --> 00:54:39.610
were all seeing the same thing. This last time that
994
00:54:39.650 --> 00:54:44.989
we were there, everybody was seeing it, but it seemed
995
00:54:45.070 --> 00:54:47.630
to be, and this was odd as well, it seemed
996
00:54:47.650 --> 00:54:50.230
to be doing different things depending on who was seeing it.
997
00:54:51.329 --> 00:54:54.030
Like I could see it walk along the wall because
998
00:54:54.070 --> 00:54:56.269
I could see the wall illuminate, but as I'm saying that,
999
00:54:56.980 --> 00:54:58.920
someone else saying it's coming right down the middle of
1000
00:54:58.960 --> 00:55:03.000
the floor or, you know, it's coming to the other
1001
00:55:03.039 --> 00:55:07.059
side of the room. Like they seem to be, or
1002
00:55:07.079 --> 00:55:09.619
the one person said they saw it walk up the wall,
1003
00:55:09.760 --> 00:55:14.000
which I didn't see that at all. But they were
1004
00:55:14.059 --> 00:55:18.820
seeing different things and sometimes different colors than what I
1005
00:55:18.860 --> 00:55:20.579
was seeing, which was odd.
1006
00:55:23.659 --> 00:55:26.099
And I've always found that interesting, but I liken it
1007
00:55:26.179 --> 00:55:29.230
to the, the parable, if you will, or the blind
1008
00:55:29.269 --> 00:55:30.989
man and the elephant, you know, one says, oh, it's
1009
00:55:31.030 --> 00:55:33.190
got a trunk. The other said, no, it's flat and wide.
1010
00:55:33.230 --> 00:55:34.889
The other, no, it doesn't have a trunk. It has
1011
00:55:34.949 --> 00:55:37.949
a tail, you know? So even though they're doing the
1012
00:55:37.989 --> 00:55:40.590
same thing, there's a different takeaway, but yet they all
1013
00:55:40.829 --> 00:55:42.909
experience the same thing. So I think it's kind of
1014
00:55:42.929 --> 00:55:46.969
like that. And again, just a difference of perception and
1015
00:55:47.159 --> 00:55:51.400
maybe it presents itself to different people in different ways.
1016
00:55:52.300 --> 00:55:54.480
Some of the things that I've experienced, I had people
1017
00:55:54.539 --> 00:55:57.980
right along with me that had either a lesser experience
1018
00:55:58.000 --> 00:56:02.639
or no experience at all. I came to a conclusion
1019
00:56:02.679 --> 00:56:05.179
a few years ago because every house I've ever lived
1020
00:56:05.239 --> 00:56:08.719
in was haunted to some degree. And I finally decided
1021
00:56:08.820 --> 00:56:11.500
it's not the houses that are haunted, it's me. These
1022
00:56:11.539 --> 00:56:14.650
things choose to reveal themselves to me for whatever reason.
1023
00:56:15.530 --> 00:56:18.489
I lived in a very, very active house in Las Vegas,
1024
00:56:18.710 --> 00:56:20.750
probably one of the most active places I've ever lived.
1025
00:56:21.429 --> 00:56:23.809
Yet the person I shared the house with that lived
1026
00:56:23.849 --> 00:56:27.760
there before I did, They'd never experienced anything. It was
1027
00:56:27.800 --> 00:56:29.760
like when I got there, then all hell broke loose.
1028
00:56:29.820 --> 00:56:33.829
And then they eventually began to experience things, or at
1029
00:56:33.869 --> 00:56:35.809
least that they'd admit to. I think before, maybe they
1030
00:56:35.849 --> 00:56:38.590
were just in denial of what was going on there.
1031
00:56:38.670 --> 00:56:42.909
But again, I don't know what it is about me.
1032
00:56:43.050 --> 00:56:49.340
Something imbued in me. Is it the negative RH factor,
1033
00:56:49.400 --> 00:56:52.159
green eyes? Is it all that? Am I an alien? Or,
1034
00:56:54.039 --> 00:56:56.019
you know, I subscribe to that theory. I don't think
1035
00:56:56.079 --> 00:56:58.840
I'm from this planet. I'm just visiting here, got stranded
1036
00:56:58.880 --> 00:57:02.260
here or something. There you go. Take me home. As
1037
00:57:02.280 --> 00:57:04.170
long as I can take my wife with me, let's go.
1038
00:57:04.190 --> 00:57:10.530
And she's like me. She's always been an outsider, even
1039
00:57:10.570 --> 00:57:13.969
among the outsiders. She's, I'm not from this planet. I
1040
00:57:13.989 --> 00:57:16.420
would go to family reunions and things and think, I
1041
00:57:16.760 --> 00:57:19.889
can't really be related to these people, can I? And
1042
00:57:20.570 --> 00:57:22.460
I had proof, you know, I had pictures of me
1043
00:57:22.679 --> 00:57:25.019
right after I was born and all that. I used
1044
00:57:25.039 --> 00:57:27.460
to think, you know, am I adopted or something? What
1045
00:57:27.500 --> 00:57:32.429
happened to me? You know, my father and mother are
1046
00:57:32.469 --> 00:57:34.449
on a spaceship somewhere. They're going to come back for
1047
00:57:34.469 --> 00:57:36.829
me one day. If I get abducted, they took me home.
1048
00:57:37.630 --> 00:57:40.750
But no, I was born there. My grandmother witnessed the birth.
1049
00:57:40.829 --> 00:57:43.239
And according to her, my mom was knocked out. That
1050
00:57:43.260 --> 00:57:45.880
was back when they gave women in labor twilight sleep.
1051
00:57:46.539 --> 00:57:48.960
but I was born with a veil over my face,
1052
00:57:49.000 --> 00:57:52.650
what they call it in Southern Appalachia, just the amniotic
1053
00:57:52.690 --> 00:57:54.630
sack was still stretched over my head and had to
1054
00:57:54.690 --> 00:57:58.489
have it cut away, but in my superstitious granny's eyes,
1055
00:57:58.969 --> 00:58:01.590
that marked me as a special child, and out of
1056
00:58:01.650 --> 00:58:04.110
all the grandchildren, and there was a lot, my mom
1057
00:58:04.130 --> 00:58:07.320
came from a big family, her and nine brothers, I
1058
00:58:07.360 --> 00:58:11.599
was the only grandchild born with that condition, and that
1059
00:58:11.639 --> 00:58:14.239
put a bullseye on me as far as granny was concerned,
1060
00:58:14.300 --> 00:58:16.710
and I was the one she had to pass her
1061
00:58:16.789 --> 00:58:20.349
legacy on to. And a lot of stuff like that
1062
00:58:20.369 --> 00:58:22.880
that I've read about, it does tend to skip a generation. Now,
1063
00:58:22.909 --> 00:58:26.460
my mom had some precognition and things that I don't
1064
00:58:26.519 --> 00:58:29.460
claim to have any special abilities or anything. It just
1065
00:58:29.519 --> 00:58:32.059
it is what it is. But I know things sometimes
1066
00:58:32.099 --> 00:58:34.300
that I have no way of knowing, not as strongly
1067
00:58:34.920 --> 00:58:39.480
as my grandmother did. But right. I think to some
1068
00:58:39.539 --> 00:58:42.719
degree you have that and you, you script, you wrote
1069
00:58:42.760 --> 00:58:44.719
for me on 13 past midnight. You talked about your
1070
00:58:44.760 --> 00:58:49.400
children saying things and experiencing things that led you to
1071
00:58:49.420 --> 00:58:52.679
believe that maybe they were reincarnated or had, that had
1072
00:58:52.699 --> 00:58:54.630
the experiences you want to expound on that a little
1073
00:58:54.650 --> 00:58:56.829
bit for our audience. Yeah.
1074
00:58:56.909 --> 00:58:59.269
So this happened, I have three children and this happened
1075
00:58:59.309 --> 00:59:03.210
with two of them. Uh, my two oldest, I remember
1076
00:59:04.429 --> 00:59:10.139
my oldest daughter was probably, three at the time. two
1077
00:59:10.179 --> 00:59:12.539
or three, maybe. Well, probably three because of how much
1078
00:59:12.579 --> 00:59:16.440
she was talking, I guess. But we were on our
1079
00:59:16.489 --> 00:59:20.789
way home from my parents. It was Christmas, I do believe.
1080
00:59:21.030 --> 00:59:24.889
And we were stopped at a stoplight and she looked
1081
00:59:24.929 --> 00:59:29.179
out the window and she looked at the pedestrian signal.
1082
00:59:30.309 --> 00:59:32.429
She asked what that was. I said, well, that's to
1083
00:59:32.469 --> 00:59:34.409
let you know whether you should walk or not, whether
1084
00:59:34.449 --> 00:59:38.010
it's safe to cross the street. She was like, oh, okay. Yeah,
1085
00:59:38.809 --> 00:59:43.699
I remember, but I didn't know what that was. How'd
1086
00:59:43.739 --> 00:59:46.599
she say? I forgot it. I know that now, but
1087
00:59:46.659 --> 00:59:48.500
I had forgotten it then. I'm like, what do you mean?
1088
00:59:48.780 --> 00:59:52.619
She said, well, back before when I was really old,
1089
00:59:54.110 --> 00:59:58.039
I was coming home from getting groceries and And I
1090
00:59:58.079 --> 01:00:00.539
could see my house across the street. So I was
1091
01:00:00.599 --> 01:00:03.900
almost home and I saw that sign and it was
1092
01:00:03.960 --> 01:00:05.639
lit up. So it was lit up to say that
1093
01:00:05.679 --> 01:00:08.969
she shouldn't cross. She's like, but I forgot what it
1094
01:00:09.030 --> 01:00:11.269
said or what that meant. So I crossed the street
1095
01:00:11.329 --> 01:00:14.550
anyway and I got hit by a car. And then
1096
01:00:14.570 --> 01:00:19.489
an ambulance came and picked me up and took me
1097
01:00:19.530 --> 01:00:21.550
to the hospital. And she was like, nobody was at
1098
01:00:21.570 --> 01:00:25.440
the hospital. I was alone and it was cold and
1099
01:00:25.480 --> 01:00:30.210
it was dark. Um, but she, and she's like, I
1100
01:00:30.250 --> 01:00:34.429
was so scared. And, um, I'm like, what do you,
1101
01:00:34.570 --> 01:00:38.309
and as she's explaining this, she's sobbing, she's just crying
1102
01:00:38.449 --> 01:00:41.760
like hysterically. Um, and we're trying to calm her down
1103
01:00:41.820 --> 01:00:43.500
cause we're driving and, you know, a kid in the
1104
01:00:43.519 --> 01:00:46.679
backseat that's freaking out is no fun whenever you're, you're
1105
01:00:46.699 --> 01:00:51.289
trying to drive home in the middle of the night. Um, but, uh,
1106
01:00:52.590 --> 01:00:54.769
she was, she just kept going on. She was very
1107
01:00:54.809 --> 01:00:57.090
hung up on the being cold and dark and alone
1108
01:00:57.150 --> 01:01:00.230
part of it. Um, so we eventually got her calmed
1109
01:01:00.250 --> 01:01:02.289
down and we had asked her some questions after that. And, uh,
1110
01:01:04.269 --> 01:01:09.590
essentially she just had this memory of her death, her being,
1111
01:01:09.789 --> 01:01:11.769
everything was cold and dark until all of a sudden
1112
01:01:11.789 --> 01:01:14.010
there was a light. And then she was here with
1113
01:01:14.110 --> 01:01:19.360
this family is what she said. Um, so she just
1114
01:01:19.400 --> 01:01:22.119
had the story. She said she was very old, when
1115
01:01:22.159 --> 01:01:26.280
it occurred. Um, and I think she gave me a
1116
01:01:26.340 --> 01:01:27.940
name at one point in time, but it was just
1117
01:01:27.960 --> 01:01:30.860
the first name. And, uh, that's not enough for me
1118
01:01:30.900 --> 01:01:33.110
to go on to, to find any records or anything
1119
01:01:33.139 --> 01:01:36.610
like that. But, um, that was her story. And then
1120
01:01:36.630 --> 01:01:43.170
it was two years later, my son, um, who was
1121
01:01:43.250 --> 01:01:47.050
then three as well. He's the middle child. Um, we
1122
01:01:47.090 --> 01:01:49.750
were sitting in the car waiting for his older sister
1123
01:01:49.789 --> 01:01:53.619
to get out of school, actually. And he said, he
1124
01:01:54.480 --> 01:01:56.480
saw me on my phone. I was playing a game
1125
01:01:56.500 --> 01:01:58.940
of some sort. Like, I don't know if it was
1126
01:01:58.980 --> 01:02:03.480
Candy Crush or something like that. And he's like, oh,
1127
01:02:04.360 --> 01:02:07.570
my grandma used to play that. Or my, I think
1128
01:02:07.590 --> 01:02:10.530
he used the word that we never use. Like, I
1129
01:02:10.570 --> 01:02:12.690
think he might've said Meemaw or something like that, that
1130
01:02:13.289 --> 01:02:16.449
we don't use that word. We've never, he's never said
1131
01:02:16.489 --> 01:02:21.699
that before. You know, she used to play games like that.
1132
01:02:22.570 --> 01:02:24.269
And I'm like, what are you talking about? Thinking about
1133
01:02:24.329 --> 01:02:27.889
my mom or my husband's mom. And I'm like, they
1134
01:02:27.909 --> 01:02:30.010
don't play games like this. And he's like, no, no, no.
1135
01:02:30.789 --> 01:02:35.739
My Meemaw from before used to play those games. I'm like, okay,
1136
01:02:35.760 --> 01:02:37.460
well tell me about her. And he's like, well, she
1137
01:02:37.500 --> 01:02:40.940
was really, she was really nice. And I lived with
1138
01:02:40.980 --> 01:02:44.260
her and she was, she was just really great. And
1139
01:02:44.320 --> 01:02:47.800
I loved her very much. He's like, it's really sad.
1140
01:02:47.860 --> 01:02:52.440
What happened? And I'm like, what happened? And he started
1141
01:02:52.460 --> 01:02:57.420
to get emotional as well. And he described living with
1142
01:02:57.559 --> 01:03:01.800
his grandmother, that they'd been a wonderful family. And one
1143
01:03:01.860 --> 01:03:03.860
night or day, I'm not sure if it was night
1144
01:03:03.909 --> 01:03:06.570
or day, but somebody came into the house and had
1145
01:03:06.610 --> 01:03:10.929
attacked his grandmother. And he tried to intervene to save her,
1146
01:03:10.969 --> 01:03:14.110
but wasn't able to do so in time. Therefore he
1147
01:03:15.389 --> 01:03:18.889
then spiraled. And he said he was so upset that
1148
01:03:18.929 --> 01:03:21.699
he wasn't able to save his grandma and that he
1149
01:03:21.739 --> 01:03:24.340
got into a car and he started driving really, really fast.
1150
01:03:25.920 --> 01:03:28.880
And he said, I drove really fast and then I
1151
01:03:28.920 --> 01:03:33.250
lost control and I hit a tree. And he said,
1152
01:03:33.269 --> 01:03:36.550
I even remember what it was like when I hit
1153
01:03:36.570 --> 01:03:41.050
the tree. And he's like describing in gory detail how
1154
01:03:41.150 --> 01:03:43.590
he hit the dashboard and so on. It was horrible.
1155
01:03:45.889 --> 01:03:49.309
He's like, but then It's like I flew out of
1156
01:03:49.349 --> 01:03:53.199
there and I flew right into your belly. And I'm like,
1157
01:03:54.079 --> 01:03:56.019
what do you mean you flew into my belly? He's like, well,
1158
01:03:56.039 --> 01:03:58.260
you were sitting in the living room. He's like, you
1159
01:03:58.300 --> 01:03:59.900
were sitting here or you were sitting there in the
1160
01:03:59.940 --> 01:04:04.139
living room and you were watching TV and eating and
1161
01:04:04.179 --> 01:04:05.920
I flew into your belly. And then I was ready
1162
01:04:05.940 --> 01:04:09.119
to come into this new family. And what was really
1163
01:04:09.300 --> 01:04:15.679
odd is that in real, like an actual time, whenever
1164
01:04:15.869 --> 01:04:17.809
I went into labor with him, I was sitting in
1165
01:04:17.829 --> 01:04:20.030
the living room and I was, I had just gotten food,
1166
01:04:20.110 --> 01:04:23.630
sat down and started eating. And I was watching wrestling, um,
1167
01:04:23.789 --> 01:04:25.809
when the first contraction hit and we had to get
1168
01:04:25.829 --> 01:04:28.659
to the hospital right away. Um, he was a very
1169
01:04:28.760 --> 01:04:33.500
quick labor, but, um, yeah, both of them had those stories.
1170
01:04:33.539 --> 01:04:38.139
Now my third child, she's, she almost seems new to
1171
01:04:38.179 --> 01:04:41.710
the world in a lot of ways. Um, she doesn't,
1172
01:04:42.320 --> 01:04:44.800
I don't know. Everything seems new to her, at least
1173
01:04:44.920 --> 01:04:47.980
from watching her grow. Everything seems new and exciting and
1174
01:04:48.000 --> 01:04:50.980
just not, not the old soul kind of thing that
1175
01:04:51.019 --> 01:04:55.320
you hear about. But yeah, both children had that story
1176
01:04:55.340 --> 01:04:58.469
of what had occurred to them in their previous life
1177
01:04:58.530 --> 01:05:04.570
and that they both, their, their families before. So, and
1178
01:05:04.590 --> 01:05:06.690
they both had a horrible ending too. It wasn't like
1179
01:05:06.710 --> 01:05:08.670
they had this nice story like, yeah, I grew old
1180
01:05:08.710 --> 01:05:10.239
and I just passed away with my family.
1181
01:05:10.260 --> 01:05:14.920
No, But that's still amazing. And to hear that come
1182
01:05:14.980 --> 01:05:16.980
out of the mouth of a three year old that
1183
01:05:17.000 --> 01:05:19.880
doesn't have any concept of any of this. And just
1184
01:05:19.920 --> 01:05:24.400
so matter of factly. And, you know, that's I know
1185
01:05:24.420 --> 01:05:27.340
kids have great imaginations and stuff. But to have a
1186
01:05:27.380 --> 01:05:31.159
whole narrative like that, your entire previous story, that would
1187
01:05:31.300 --> 01:05:34.519
that would take some doing there. I believe there's something
1188
01:05:34.539 --> 01:05:36.860
to all that. I've had other friends that where their
1189
01:05:36.889 --> 01:05:40.360
child would wake up. in the night crying for one
1190
01:05:40.400 --> 01:05:43.639
parent or another or grandparents. Oh, they're, they're right here. No,
1191
01:05:43.699 --> 01:05:46.099
I mean, the ones from before my other mommy, my
1192
01:05:46.119 --> 01:05:51.400
other daddy, when I lived, you know, and again, small
1193
01:05:51.440 --> 01:05:54.599
children that had no concept of anything like that. It's,
1194
01:05:55.280 --> 01:05:57.719
it boggles the mind and it gives you something to
1195
01:05:57.760 --> 01:05:59.199
ponder and something to think about.
1196
01:06:00.260 --> 01:06:03.300
Absolutely. And they grew out of those memories as well.
1197
01:06:03.340 --> 01:06:05.219
If you were to ask them now, I'm glad that
1198
01:06:05.239 --> 01:06:07.920
I wrote them down when I did. And, um, shared
1199
01:06:07.960 --> 01:06:10.460
them with you and they've been recorded because when they
1200
01:06:10.480 --> 01:06:13.780
got to a certain age, they lost those memories. So.
1201
01:06:14.469 --> 01:06:20.969
And on hearing that now, what's their response to that? Anything?
1202
01:06:21.489 --> 01:06:23.949
Well, my oldest just rolls her eyes. She rolls her
1203
01:06:24.010 --> 01:06:30.219
eyes at anything that's weird or strange. So she's like, yeah, okay, mom.
1204
01:06:30.239 --> 01:06:34.440
My son, he just, he's like, yeah, I think I
1205
01:06:34.480 --> 01:06:38.469
remember saying that maybe, but he doesn't, It just doesn't
1206
01:06:38.489 --> 01:06:41.449
phase him. Yeah.
1207
01:06:41.469 --> 01:06:43.190
And that's strange. A lot of the way, a lot
1208
01:06:43.210 --> 01:06:46.949
of those memories, early, early childhood memories like that leave people.
1209
01:06:46.969 --> 01:06:50.090
I've known people that couldn't remember anything before they were
1210
01:06:50.130 --> 01:06:53.010
four or five years old, but I can remember vivid detail.
1211
01:06:53.030 --> 01:06:56.570
Like when I was still in diapers and stuff and just, again,
1212
01:06:56.610 --> 01:06:58.929
I've been blessed with a near photographic memory and it
1213
01:06:58.969 --> 01:07:01.590
goes way back. My youngest memory is when I was
1214
01:07:01.650 --> 01:07:05.550
six months old. Wow. I remember going to a place
1215
01:07:05.760 --> 01:07:08.420
with my dad where a house was being built and
1216
01:07:08.460 --> 01:07:12.170
they just had the foundation and a roof on it,
1217
01:07:12.280 --> 01:07:14.809
and they had part of the interior wall started, but
1218
01:07:14.869 --> 01:07:17.489
it was basically just a big open space. I remember
1219
01:07:17.530 --> 01:07:20.150
him picking me up and putting me up in there,
1220
01:07:20.590 --> 01:07:23.929
and I ran around on the subflooring. I mentioned that
1221
01:07:23.949 --> 01:07:26.250
to my dad when I was probably in my 30s
1222
01:07:26.309 --> 01:07:28.730
or something. When I was little, where did we go
1223
01:07:28.769 --> 01:07:31.570
to one time? I described that scenario, and he looked
1224
01:07:31.590 --> 01:07:33.570
at me, and he said, well, that was the house
1225
01:07:33.610 --> 01:07:35.150
you grew up in. But he said, you were only
1226
01:07:35.210 --> 01:07:36.929
six months old. He said, there's no way you can
1227
01:07:36.949 --> 01:07:40.550
remember that. But yet I did. So I didn't know
1228
01:07:40.590 --> 01:07:42.019
where it was. I didn't know it was the house
1229
01:07:42.079 --> 01:07:44.300
I grew up in. I didn't remember that part, but
1230
01:07:44.340 --> 01:07:48.000
I remembered being there and describing that situation exactly as
1231
01:07:48.059 --> 01:07:51.539
it happened. So starting child, some things like that will
1232
01:07:51.559 --> 01:07:54.389
stick with it. And other things maybe have no memory of,
1233
01:07:54.440 --> 01:07:57.159
or something that I did in elementary school or even
1234
01:07:57.219 --> 01:07:59.289
high school, I'll come back to me like, oh yeah,
1235
01:07:59.309 --> 01:08:03.150
I remember when that happened. But yeah, I've had that
1236
01:08:03.210 --> 01:08:06.070
happen too, where I would mention something that happened in
1237
01:08:06.429 --> 01:08:08.469
school years and people that was there with them. I
1238
01:08:08.510 --> 01:08:10.889
don't remember that. Like, yeah, you were right there with me.
1239
01:08:10.949 --> 01:08:14.940
We talked about it. Maybe it was just so traumatic
1240
01:08:14.960 --> 01:08:18.539
for them. They blotted it out. I don't know. But
1241
01:08:19.279 --> 01:08:21.840
getting back into the school part of this now, and
1242
01:08:21.939 --> 01:08:25.140
I mentioned in the introduction there that you're a classics professor.
1243
01:08:26.130 --> 01:08:29.189
How do your students feel about your other fields of
1244
01:08:29.250 --> 01:08:31.229
interest and fields of endeavor? Is that something you ever
1245
01:08:31.300 --> 01:08:33.600
discuss with them or do you keep your lives separate?
1246
01:08:34.619 --> 01:08:36.779
Yeah, they're pretty separate. They're not aware of it unless
1247
01:08:36.800 --> 01:08:42.100
they were to look into my name, I guess. So
1248
01:08:42.119 --> 01:08:45.159
that isn't something that comes up. Now, I did actually
1249
01:08:45.380 --> 01:08:49.279
last fall speak with a college class that was not mine.
1250
01:08:50.470 --> 01:08:53.029
It was an English class, I believe, just talking to
1251
01:08:53.050 --> 01:08:59.880
them about kind of following what you enjoy whenever you
1252
01:08:59.899 --> 01:09:03.199
go out into the professional world and then hoping that
1253
01:09:03.239 --> 01:09:08.659
that becomes something that's fruitful later. So they were asking
1254
01:09:08.680 --> 01:09:10.220
me all kinds of questions about the world of the
1255
01:09:10.239 --> 01:09:12.270
weird and how I got to be in there and
1256
01:09:12.310 --> 01:09:16.949
how that actually became a job. Because that's always the hope, right?
1257
01:09:18.149 --> 01:09:20.569
Yeah, I love that. And it is. It's such a
1258
01:09:20.609 --> 01:09:24.130
blessing to get to do what I do and make
1259
01:09:24.170 --> 01:09:27.229
a living doing it. Otherwise, I'd be working in a
1260
01:09:27.270 --> 01:09:30.649
bookstore or a record store or pumping gas or something
1261
01:09:30.670 --> 01:09:34.189
because I'm not fit for any kind of normal employment,
1262
01:09:34.710 --> 01:09:36.869
which I've proven over time. And I've worn a lot
1263
01:09:36.909 --> 01:09:40.949
of hats. I've been a network administrator. I've been technical
1264
01:09:40.989 --> 01:09:45.789
support for a large medical group. I've worked construction, demolition,
1265
01:09:45.869 --> 01:09:49.989
done a little bit of everything. But writing and talking
1266
01:09:50.529 --> 01:09:54.409
seems to be my forte. My dad gave me that
1267
01:09:54.489 --> 01:09:57.409
when I was little because I talked a lot. And
1268
01:09:57.470 --> 01:09:59.550
he said, boy, he said, if you can ever find
1269
01:09:59.590 --> 01:10:01.890
a way to get paid for talking, you'll be set.
1270
01:10:02.109 --> 01:10:04.310
And here I am. So thanks, dad.
1271
01:10:04.350 --> 01:10:08.289
Thanks, dad. He called it.
1272
01:10:09.010 --> 01:10:11.710
Same one that used to accuse me of having the
1273
01:10:11.729 --> 01:10:14.250
ability to talk until I knew what I wanted to say.
1274
01:10:14.289 --> 01:10:16.810
And that's true. I've always been very glad. Had the
1275
01:10:16.829 --> 01:10:20.409
gift of gab. And one of my favorite classes that
1276
01:10:20.430 --> 01:10:23.819
I ever took in college was extraneous speaking. I'm sorry,
1277
01:10:23.939 --> 01:10:28.779
extemporaneous speaking. And people were panicking. You know, you had
1278
01:10:28.979 --> 01:10:31.600
they gave you your topic on an index card and
1279
01:10:31.619 --> 01:10:34.119
you had five minutes to prepare. And I said to
1280
01:10:34.140 --> 01:10:37.479
the professor, that's not extemporaneous. You're giving me five minutes.
1281
01:10:37.810 --> 01:10:39.409
I said, I want you to hand me my card
1282
01:10:39.810 --> 01:10:41.850
when I get on the podium. And he said, you're
1283
01:10:41.890 --> 01:10:44.550
sure you want to do this? Yes, sir. I did it,
1284
01:10:44.750 --> 01:10:47.470
and I gave a wonderful talk. It was about the
1285
01:10:47.689 --> 01:10:50.949
Versailles Peace Treaty or something, but I knew enough about
1286
01:10:50.989 --> 01:10:54.319
it to compare and contrast and get through it, and
1287
01:10:54.420 --> 01:10:56.760
he was impressed, and he said, I bet you can't
1288
01:10:56.800 --> 01:10:59.739
do it again. I said, I bet I can, and
1289
01:11:00.140 --> 01:11:03.380
I could do that every time, and it's just, I've
1290
01:11:03.619 --> 01:11:05.850
always read a lot and just have a broad base
1291
01:11:05.949 --> 01:11:08.449
of knowledge, and it has provided me with the ability
1292
01:11:08.470 --> 01:11:12.810
to jack of all trades, if you will. polymath. I
1293
01:11:12.850 --> 01:11:14.729
know a little bit about a lot of different things,
1294
01:11:14.770 --> 01:11:17.460
but I'm really not an expert in any area. And
1295
01:11:17.520 --> 01:11:21.100
in fact, nothing scares me away any faster than to
1296
01:11:21.140 --> 01:11:24.199
be described as an expert in the paranormal or cryptids
1297
01:11:24.220 --> 01:11:27.020
or anything, or for somebody to be introduced to me that, well,
1298
01:11:27.039 --> 01:11:30.060
this is Joe Smith. He's an expert in the paranormal. Okay.
1299
01:11:31.079 --> 01:11:33.000
I don't think there are any experts. I think we're
1300
01:11:33.140 --> 01:11:37.430
all on a quest for more knowledge. And I gave
1301
01:11:37.489 --> 01:11:39.869
up looking for the answers a long time ago, Heather.
1302
01:11:39.909 --> 01:11:42.369
I've often said that now I'm just looking for the
1303
01:11:42.430 --> 01:11:45.869
next set of questions. And if we had all the answers,
1304
01:11:46.390 --> 01:11:48.529
my journey, my personal journey, wouldn't have been near as
1305
01:11:48.569 --> 01:11:52.609
much fun and enjoyable as it has been. And Soraya
1306
01:11:52.720 --> 01:11:55.600
Azkath from Where'd the Rogue Go, he once quipped that
1307
01:11:55.640 --> 01:11:58.619
it's like this big jigsaw puzzle that we're trying to
1308
01:11:58.659 --> 01:12:02.420
put together, but we don't have the box to even
1309
01:12:02.479 --> 01:12:04.579
see what the picture is that we're trying to make.
1310
01:12:05.420 --> 01:12:08.039
And yet before we get into it, we discover that
1311
01:12:08.140 --> 01:12:12.159
some cosmic joker, has mixed maybe a dozen puzzles together.
1312
01:12:12.560 --> 01:12:15.100
So maybe the one that we're working on, there are
1313
01:12:15.140 --> 01:12:17.770
pieces that don't fit anywhere. And I thought that was
1314
01:12:17.829 --> 01:12:20.149
very good description.
1315
01:12:20.170 --> 01:12:23.090
Yeah. Yeah. I agree with that. That seems to be
1316
01:12:23.149 --> 01:12:25.569
definitely the way it is always coming away with more
1317
01:12:25.630 --> 01:12:27.149
questions than answers. That's for sure.
1318
01:12:28.789 --> 01:12:30.859
And that's the way it's supposed to be. And when
1319
01:12:30.880 --> 01:12:34.760
I've talked about my first, um, full body apparition, uh,
1320
01:12:36.520 --> 01:12:38.819
Long story short, a little boy ran out from behind
1321
01:12:38.880 --> 01:12:42.939
a car that was stopped at an intersection. The driver
1322
01:12:43.079 --> 01:12:45.720
didn't act like he saw it or whatever at all,
1323
01:12:45.760 --> 01:12:48.779
didn't acknowledge it in the least. Ran kind of candy
1324
01:12:48.800 --> 01:12:52.359
corner down into our yard, fell down and disappeared. Small child.
1325
01:12:53.220 --> 01:12:55.039
I didn't take my eyes off the spot, went straight
1326
01:12:55.100 --> 01:12:57.659
to the spot. Nothing there, nothing I could have mistaken
1327
01:12:57.699 --> 01:13:01.960
for a child. Nothing, no hole or anything that somebody
1328
01:13:01.979 --> 01:13:04.119
could have fallen into. I knew every inch of that yard.
1329
01:13:05.050 --> 01:13:08.090
And we lived quite a ways back off the road,
1330
01:13:08.090 --> 01:13:12.880
213 feet from the edge of our garage to the
1331
01:13:13.119 --> 01:13:15.020
edge of the road. I measured it later in life
1332
01:13:15.039 --> 01:13:17.859
when I was doing BMX prints, but I was about
1333
01:13:17.880 --> 01:13:19.560
a hundred feet out in the yard. So this happened,
1334
01:13:19.600 --> 01:13:21.979
went right to the spot, nothing there. I even went
1335
01:13:22.010 --> 01:13:23.890
and got a shovel out of my dad's tool shed
1336
01:13:23.930 --> 01:13:26.289
and dug in that spot to see if there was
1337
01:13:26.329 --> 01:13:29.210
something buried there or something. And I told that story
1338
01:13:29.430 --> 01:13:32.029
to Cisco Murdoch and she said, you know, Steve, you've
1339
01:13:32.109 --> 01:13:35.170
never put down that shovel. You're still digging. And I am.
1340
01:13:35.289 --> 01:13:38.489
I'm still looking for the disappearing child. That was what
1341
01:13:38.529 --> 01:13:42.149
started me on my journey. And I asked my granny
1342
01:13:42.220 --> 01:13:47.119
about that. She was very intuitive. A self-described gypsy witch.
1343
01:13:47.199 --> 01:13:49.659
I don't know where the gypsy part came in. But
1344
01:13:49.939 --> 01:13:53.560
told fortunes, red tea leaves and coffee grounds, animal entrails,
1345
01:13:53.600 --> 01:13:56.119
things like that. And I asked her about that. And
1346
01:13:56.140 --> 01:13:59.729
she said, well, a very cryptic answer. Sometimes you see
1347
01:13:59.779 --> 01:14:02.380
things that are meant for you to see. Other times
1348
01:14:02.420 --> 01:14:04.600
you see things that are meant for other people to see,
1349
01:14:04.659 --> 01:14:07.479
and you just happen to see it. Sometimes you'll just
1350
01:14:07.520 --> 01:14:10.840
see things that there's no rhyme or reason, no explanation
1351
01:14:10.960 --> 01:14:15.229
that you'll never know, even in retrospect. So there you go.
1352
01:14:15.409 --> 01:14:17.590
I don't know. And I still don't know, but it
1353
01:14:18.109 --> 01:14:20.329
started me on this journey of what was that? It
1354
01:14:20.369 --> 01:14:22.810
didn't scare me. It was just like, what was that?
1355
01:14:22.850 --> 01:14:24.890
You know, what just happened? What did I just witness?
1356
01:14:25.010 --> 01:14:26.770
And off I went.
1357
01:14:27.670 --> 01:14:28.909
How old were you when that happened?
1358
01:14:29.609 --> 01:14:34.909
I was four. Wow. wow and that's uh i see
1359
01:14:34.989 --> 01:14:36.750
i've talked to a lot of people that between the
1360
01:14:36.810 --> 01:14:39.569
ages of three and five that seems to be the
1361
01:14:39.609 --> 01:14:43.819
the prime optimal time to have these experiences that either
1362
01:14:44.539 --> 01:14:47.159
shut you down where you don't care or make you
1363
01:14:47.180 --> 01:14:51.079
curious for the rest of your life right yeah but
1364
01:14:51.119 --> 01:14:54.560
more so uh it makes you curious and uh i
1365
01:14:55.100 --> 01:14:57.989
said it started me on a lifelong quest and I
1366
01:14:58.010 --> 01:15:00.310
haven't gotten any further. I'm still in that yard digging
1367
01:15:00.329 --> 01:15:02.470
with a shovel. It's just somebody else's yard and a
1368
01:15:02.510 --> 01:15:05.609
different shovel now, but still looking for answers.
1369
01:15:06.590 --> 01:15:07.949
I like that. I like that a lot.
1370
01:15:07.970 --> 01:15:11.750
Now the, you talked about some of your early experiences.
1371
01:15:11.789 --> 01:15:14.479
Was that the one that kind of set you on
1372
01:15:14.520 --> 01:15:17.319
this path or were there, there are several, cause I
1373
01:15:17.340 --> 01:15:19.840
had other experiences. I had more around the age of, um,
1374
01:15:21.960 --> 01:15:24.859
Between five and six and then again around seven and eight,
1375
01:15:25.220 --> 01:15:28.210
it just continued on. It just was nonstop at that
1376
01:15:28.289 --> 01:15:32.390
point and still that way to a degree. But was
1377
01:15:32.909 --> 01:15:36.810
that your impetus? Was that your aha moment when you thought,
1378
01:15:36.829 --> 01:15:38.890
you know, there's something else out here and I got
1379
01:15:38.909 --> 01:15:39.880
to find out what it is?
1380
01:15:40.850 --> 01:15:44.500
Well, I mean, I was always intrigued by, like I said,
1381
01:15:44.539 --> 01:15:47.960
watching Unsolved Mysteries. But beyond that, just in a more
1382
01:15:48.020 --> 01:15:52.720
personal vein, my mom would tell me, since I was young,
1383
01:15:52.760 --> 01:15:55.020
that she grew up in a haunted house. And I
1384
01:15:55.050 --> 01:15:56.739
would ask her questions about that. Like, how did you
1385
01:15:56.779 --> 01:15:59.130
know it was haunted? And she told me this story
1386
01:15:59.149 --> 01:16:04.010
about when she was younger, that my grandmother had bought
1387
01:16:04.050 --> 01:16:07.789
them a Ouija board for Christmas. And she technically bought
1388
01:16:07.810 --> 01:16:10.750
it for my, my aunt, but it was, of course,
1389
01:16:10.810 --> 01:16:13.630
you know, that's a, a group effort for them to
1390
01:16:13.670 --> 01:16:18.029
play Ouija board, but, or it should be, I guess anyway. So, um,
1391
01:16:19.789 --> 01:16:21.630
they were sitting on playing with the Ouija board. My
1392
01:16:21.710 --> 01:16:24.510
aunt's freaked out about it. Um, but it started to sit,
1393
01:16:24.550 --> 01:16:26.449
spell out that there was a spirit in the house.
1394
01:16:27.609 --> 01:16:30.109
It said that her name was Elizabeth and that she
1395
01:16:30.180 --> 01:16:34.479
lived in my mother's room. So mom would tell me
1396
01:16:34.500 --> 01:16:37.359
this story. And she also then ended it with my
1397
01:16:37.439 --> 01:16:39.479
aunt got too freaked out and then had my grandmother
1398
01:16:39.520 --> 01:16:44.739
burned the board, which whatever she had her burn the board. So, uh,
1399
01:16:46.359 --> 01:16:48.359
as I would grow up, we would always drive past
1400
01:16:49.590 --> 01:16:51.880
that my mother's childhood home on the way to visit
1401
01:16:51.939 --> 01:16:54.100
my grandparents, because they had moved just down the road
1402
01:16:54.140 --> 01:16:56.840
into a different house when they got older. And she
1403
01:16:56.880 --> 01:16:58.380
would always point to the house and she would point
1404
01:16:58.420 --> 01:16:59.960
to the window that was hers. And she'd be like,
1405
01:16:59.979 --> 01:17:03.930
that's Elizabeth's room. And I still know, because I live
1406
01:17:03.970 --> 01:17:07.550
not far from that place now, which room was Elizabeth's room.
1407
01:17:07.949 --> 01:17:11.609
But I grew up hearing that story. And I was
1408
01:17:11.829 --> 01:17:17.109
in third grade, I believe, whenever mom bought me my
1409
01:17:17.149 --> 01:17:21.090
first Ouija board. And I would play on that thing
1410
01:17:21.390 --> 01:17:24.409
with my dad, with mom and my mom's friend that
1411
01:17:24.449 --> 01:17:26.270
would come over and do her hair. She was really
1412
01:17:26.489 --> 01:17:30.689
gifted with tarot cards and Ouija boards and things like that.
1413
01:17:31.789 --> 01:17:34.729
We would play on it all the time. And it
1414
01:17:34.770 --> 01:17:37.859
just was, it just was, I guess there was a
1415
01:17:37.859 --> 01:17:40.020
Ouija board in the house and it was something that
1416
01:17:40.340 --> 01:17:43.300
we would get on and talk to every once in
1417
01:17:43.319 --> 01:17:45.079
a while. It's not something that I was like addicted
1418
01:17:45.119 --> 01:17:47.569
to by any means or anything like that, but It
1419
01:17:47.590 --> 01:17:49.369
was something that was there. It existed and it was
1420
01:17:49.409 --> 01:17:51.949
what it was. Mom grew up in a haunted house.
1421
01:17:52.109 --> 01:17:53.850
She just grew up in a haunted house. There wasn't
1422
01:17:53.869 --> 01:17:56.750
a question about it. And I think just growing up
1423
01:17:56.850 --> 01:18:04.090
in that realm helped precipitate me being in this world
1424
01:18:04.310 --> 01:18:06.659
that I'm in now. It just was, it just existed.
1425
01:18:06.920 --> 01:18:11.560
And then as far as where mom grew up, many
1426
01:18:11.619 --> 01:18:15.600
years later, it was after I had started working with
1427
01:18:15.619 --> 01:18:18.560
small town monsters, um, and I started writing for Shannon
1428
01:18:18.779 --> 01:18:22.979
Legro for the, uh, weird writer blog, uh, I decided,
1429
01:18:23.189 --> 01:18:24.949
let me take some of my skills that I've learned
1430
01:18:24.989 --> 01:18:26.829
as an adult and see if I can find any
1431
01:18:26.930 --> 01:18:29.710
truth to this Elizabeth story. So I went to the
1432
01:18:29.729 --> 01:18:34.649
County courthouse and started looking up land records. And I
1433
01:18:34.729 --> 01:18:38.609
found actually there was an Elizabeth Lighty that lived in
1434
01:18:38.649 --> 01:18:43.399
that house. She was on the deeds, um, which in
1435
01:18:43.439 --> 01:18:46.140
itself was rare because this was in the 1800s to
1436
01:18:46.159 --> 01:18:49.420
have a female on the deeds, but she was there. Um,
1437
01:18:49.460 --> 01:18:55.699
so there wasn't Elizabeth that lived in that house for real. Um, and, um,
1438
01:18:56.699 --> 01:18:58.500
it was, it was like a full circle moment to
1439
01:18:58.539 --> 01:19:00.869
have that come back around and see that that was
1440
01:19:00.909 --> 01:19:03.369
something that I could actually verify from this childhood story,
1441
01:19:03.409 --> 01:19:08.090
because I just always knew the name was Elizabeth and
1442
01:19:08.109 --> 01:19:11.210
that she supposedly lived in that house. And Sure enough,
1443
01:19:11.569 --> 01:19:13.449
there she is on paper. If you go to the
1444
01:19:13.489 --> 01:19:16.529
county courthouse, you can find her. But that's how I
1445
01:19:16.550 --> 01:19:19.220
kind of grew up with all of this stuff. It
1446
01:19:19.260 --> 01:19:25.399
just existed. It was there and without question. I had
1447
01:19:25.439 --> 01:19:32.529
a moment whenever I was younger. I was probably in
1448
01:19:32.590 --> 01:19:36.949
middle school, I would say, when my parents had left
1449
01:19:36.970 --> 01:19:39.880
to go to the store or something. they weren't home
1450
01:19:40.000 --> 01:19:43.060
either way. And I was sitting in the living room
1451
01:19:43.100 --> 01:19:46.680
playing with the dogs and the cats and just watching TV.
1452
01:19:46.779 --> 01:19:49.460
And all of a sudden all the animals froze and
1453
01:19:49.479 --> 01:19:54.840
they looked behind me and I, it threw me off. Uh,
1454
01:19:54.909 --> 01:19:57.329
obviously they just suddenly stopped and they're all staring in
1455
01:19:57.350 --> 01:19:59.310
the same place. So I turn around and looked in
1456
01:19:59.350 --> 01:20:03.069
the doorway leading to the dining room right behind me.
1457
01:20:03.590 --> 01:20:08.020
There was a man standing in the doorway. Um, now
1458
01:20:08.100 --> 01:20:11.720
he was in like native American garb, but when I
1459
01:20:11.779 --> 01:20:16.699
first saw him, I just had this calming feeling of, Oh,
1460
01:20:16.739 --> 01:20:19.560
that's just dad. You know, like it was just a
1461
01:20:19.680 --> 01:20:22.899
fatherly type feeling. I wasn't concerned. I wasn't scared. I
1462
01:20:22.939 --> 01:20:24.090
just saw him and I was like, Oh, and I
1463
01:20:24.130 --> 01:20:26.489
turned back around and then it caught up to me.
1464
01:20:26.550 --> 01:20:29.789
Wait a second. That's not dad. When I turned back
1465
01:20:29.829 --> 01:20:31.850
to look a second time, it was gone and the
1466
01:20:31.909 --> 01:20:36.310
animals had resumed back what they were doing. Um, So we,
1467
01:20:36.319 --> 01:20:38.350
of course, asked the Ouija board about that later. And
1468
01:20:38.630 --> 01:20:40.510
I was told that it was a guardian that was there.
1469
01:20:41.109 --> 01:20:44.170
But I don't know. Things like that would happen. I
1470
01:20:44.270 --> 01:20:48.710
would hear footsteps go up and down the hallway because
1471
01:20:48.729 --> 01:20:50.939
there's definitely a way to tell the difference between mom
1472
01:20:50.960 --> 01:20:53.279
and dad's footsteps. They sounded differently if they'd get up
1473
01:20:53.300 --> 01:20:54.560
in the middle of the night and walk out to
1474
01:20:54.600 --> 01:20:57.199
get a glass of water or something. And it always
1475
01:20:57.239 --> 01:20:59.520
sounded like dad getting up and walking. But when I
1476
01:20:59.539 --> 01:21:02.060
would get up to check, it wasn't dad. There would
1477
01:21:02.079 --> 01:21:05.369
be nobody there. So I would think in my head, oh,
1478
01:21:05.390 --> 01:21:09.430
that's just that guardian walking down the hallway again. So
1479
01:21:09.449 --> 01:21:11.670
stuff like that is kind of what I grew up
1480
01:21:11.710 --> 01:21:16.270
with and I think helped me be the person I
1481
01:21:16.350 --> 01:21:16.670
am now.
1482
01:21:17.270 --> 01:21:20.029
And I agree. If you're around it and you're exposed
1483
01:21:20.069 --> 01:21:23.869
to it, like especially in the case of my mom,
1484
01:21:23.890 --> 01:21:27.760
I mean, their natural was a supernatural. You know, they
1485
01:21:27.819 --> 01:21:32.500
had regular seances, table tipping or table tapping, Ouija boards,
1486
01:21:32.619 --> 01:21:35.210
card readings and stuff. They grew up with it, and
1487
01:21:35.229 --> 01:21:38.789
they just didn't know any different. And her family were
1488
01:21:38.810 --> 01:21:41.510
a part of the spiritualism movement from around the turn
1489
01:21:41.529 --> 01:21:44.109
of the last century. And the way they got into
1490
01:21:44.149 --> 01:21:49.069
it initially, they had a relative that never came back
1491
01:21:49.109 --> 01:21:51.649
from World War I, and they could never find out
1492
01:21:51.689 --> 01:21:53.949
what happened to him. I think that ended, what, 1918,
1493
01:21:53.949 --> 01:21:57.439
something like that. I'm a little rusty with my figures here.
1494
01:21:58.039 --> 01:22:01.989
But that was how they initially got into it. And
1495
01:22:02.050 --> 01:22:04.810
just as a little girl, you know, my mom participated
1496
01:22:04.869 --> 01:22:06.930
in those things and knew about those things. And even
1497
01:22:07.649 --> 01:22:10.029
up to the time she married my dad, prior to
1498
01:22:10.069 --> 01:22:11.689
them getting married, the first time she ever took him
1499
01:22:11.729 --> 01:22:15.220
to meet her family, they were doing a table tapping session.
1500
01:22:15.920 --> 01:22:19.199
And now my dad, he grew up hardscrabble Appalachian, but
1501
01:22:19.220 --> 01:22:21.859
he got out, went to University of Tennessee, my alma mater,
1502
01:22:22.699 --> 01:22:26.300
and was already on his path to civil engineering and
1503
01:22:26.319 --> 01:22:29.590
then later a scientist. But he said, I, you know,
1504
01:22:30.390 --> 01:22:33.369
it just mystified him. He said, they sounded like a
1505
01:22:33.409 --> 01:22:37.050
bunch of heathens. They were all sitting around, you know, rise, rise, rise, rise.
1506
01:22:37.789 --> 01:22:40.430
But he said, he looked around at every angle. He
1507
01:22:40.529 --> 01:22:43.100
made sure, you know, nobody had their toe under one
1508
01:22:43.119 --> 01:22:46.680
of the table legs, making it rise. Nobody had a
1509
01:22:47.359 --> 01:22:49.960
ruler up their sleeve under the table edge, you know,
1510
01:22:49.979 --> 01:22:52.460
and making it lift up an old parlor magic trick
1511
01:22:52.500 --> 01:22:56.170
or anything like that. He said, there was something unseen
1512
01:22:56.229 --> 01:22:59.640
force raising that table. and he talked about they would
1513
01:22:59.659 --> 01:23:02.319
even take some of the grandkids, or maybe even some
1514
01:23:02.340 --> 01:23:04.399
of the smaller kids at that time, because my mom
1515
01:23:04.420 --> 01:23:07.520
had younger siblings, put them on the table and try
1516
01:23:07.539 --> 01:23:08.800
to get it to rise, and he said that old
1517
01:23:08.859 --> 01:23:12.180
farm table creaked and groaned and tried every way in
1518
01:23:12.220 --> 01:23:14.220
the world to rise up with that added weight on there,
1519
01:23:14.239 --> 01:23:16.279
and it just couldn't do it, but he said I
1520
01:23:16.300 --> 01:23:19.359
had no explanation for it, and later in life, he
1521
01:23:19.399 --> 01:23:23.989
would talk about things that happened in a laboratory setting.
1522
01:23:24.050 --> 01:23:26.239
He said that There'd be times when they were doing
1523
01:23:26.279 --> 01:23:31.449
an experiment under extremely controlled conditions when things would just
1524
01:23:31.510 --> 01:23:34.329
happen that weren't supposed to happen. They could never get
1525
01:23:34.350 --> 01:23:36.329
it to happen again. They don't know how it happened,
1526
01:23:36.789 --> 01:23:40.130
yet it happened. Some anomalous result, he called it. And
1527
01:23:40.329 --> 01:23:42.949
there used to be a zine that I read back
1528
01:23:42.989 --> 01:23:46.270
in the 80s called the Journal of Irreproducible Results. And
1529
01:23:46.329 --> 01:23:50.260
it mentioned things like that, how sometimes, despite everything we do,
1530
01:23:51.380 --> 01:23:54.899
the natural laws that we've come up with, they don't
1531
01:23:55.930 --> 01:23:59.310
always correspond with supernatural laws and things and to me
1532
01:23:59.350 --> 01:24:02.670
that's just fascinating that you know here's a scientist but
1533
01:24:02.710 --> 01:24:06.649
yet he has a belief in the supernatural and I
1534
01:24:06.869 --> 01:24:09.590
get it and he experienced things you know when he
1535
01:24:09.630 --> 01:24:12.189
was growing up now they weren't as steeped in it
1536
01:24:12.409 --> 01:24:16.909
as my maternal grandmother and her family but they had
1537
01:24:16.949 --> 01:24:20.689
their share of it and tales passed around and hauntings
1538
01:24:20.829 --> 01:24:25.170
and inexplicable things in the woods and stuff so It
1539
01:24:25.210 --> 01:24:28.010
was there, but I said on the belief whole thing
1540
01:24:28.029 --> 01:24:31.350
that I was born out of the union of science
1541
01:24:31.390 --> 01:24:34.550
and superstition, and I sprang forth with the best of
1542
01:24:34.609 --> 01:24:37.670
both and bewildered, and here I still am.
1543
01:24:41.050 --> 01:24:41.770
That's worked.
1544
01:24:42.369 --> 01:24:44.670
It does. It sticks with you, and I had Ouija
1545
01:24:44.729 --> 01:24:48.310
board experiences too. I got my first one. I don't
1546
01:24:48.329 --> 01:24:50.210
think I was quite six years old yet. It was
1547
01:24:50.270 --> 01:24:53.449
between kindergarten and first grade, probably that summer it might
1548
01:24:53.470 --> 01:24:58.199
have been. the fall that I started first grade. I
1549
01:24:58.239 --> 01:25:01.550
talk about it in one of my videos, but I
1550
01:25:01.590 --> 01:25:03.970
was sick that day and I've been to the doctor,
1551
01:25:04.010 --> 01:25:06.989
had ear, nose, and throat problems my entire life. Had
1552
01:25:07.010 --> 01:25:09.109
to have tonsils and adenoids out when I was five.
1553
01:25:09.149 --> 01:25:12.289
That was traumatic. Don't catch colds or the flu. The
1554
01:25:12.329 --> 01:25:13.890
only time I've ever had the flu, I took a
1555
01:25:13.909 --> 01:25:17.109
flu shot in 1985 and got the flu and thought
1556
01:25:17.130 --> 01:25:19.090
I was going to die. Haven't had the flu since,
1557
01:25:19.109 --> 01:25:20.850
haven't had a flu shot since. So either that one
1558
01:25:20.869 --> 01:25:23.210
worked really, really good or it gave me the flu.
1559
01:25:24.199 --> 01:25:27.800
but I'd been for some ENT malady and we had
1560
01:25:27.840 --> 01:25:32.750
to stop by the drugstore to, to get my prescription filled. And, uh,
1561
01:25:33.090 --> 01:25:35.210
I'd wandered back to the toy. My mom was going
1562
01:25:35.229 --> 01:25:37.569
to let me get something. And I saw the Ouija
1563
01:25:37.609 --> 01:25:39.949
board and it was the old box with, uh, the
1564
01:25:39.970 --> 01:25:42.250
dark background of the stars and like a blue hooded
1565
01:25:42.369 --> 01:25:45.970
figure on the front of it, like a robed figure.
1566
01:25:46.250 --> 01:25:49.609
What is this? And, uh, she kind of explained it
1567
01:25:49.649 --> 01:25:51.460
to me like, Oh, I want one. Can I have it?
1568
01:25:51.500 --> 01:25:55.939
So she got me one. And, um, still remember sitting
1569
01:25:56.010 --> 01:25:59.109
in that I think it was a 62 Chevy 2
1570
01:25:59.109 --> 01:26:01.470
sitting in the back seat of that with my Ouija
1571
01:26:01.489 --> 01:26:04.930
board in my lap when we got home opened it
1572
01:26:05.029 --> 01:26:07.010
up and she gave me you know some caveats don't
1573
01:26:07.149 --> 01:26:09.890
ask anything you don't want it to know don't do
1574
01:26:09.930 --> 01:26:12.590
it by yourself don't ask it about your death or
1575
01:26:12.609 --> 01:26:15.909
somebody's close to your death things like that don't invite
1576
01:26:16.069 --> 01:26:18.840
anything in that you made on the board you know
1577
01:26:18.880 --> 01:26:22.300
just some general warnings about it and then that day
1578
01:26:22.359 --> 01:26:25.770
we used it and school must have been in session
1579
01:26:25.789 --> 01:26:27.710
because i remember the first thing i ever asked it
1580
01:26:27.750 --> 01:26:31.130
was when will it snow this year and it gave
1581
01:26:31.189 --> 01:26:33.869
a date and i marked it on the calendar and
1582
01:26:33.890 --> 01:26:36.369
uh i looked forward to that date because i love
1583
01:26:36.409 --> 01:26:38.689
snow still do loved a snow day though who didn't
1584
01:26:39.399 --> 01:26:43.899
yeah sure enough a couple days prior to that nope
1585
01:26:44.060 --> 01:26:45.979
not going to snow no snow in the forecast but
1586
01:26:46.000 --> 01:26:50.779
then overnight where we live there in east tennessee there
1587
01:26:50.800 --> 01:26:52.760
was a low that moved south of us and when
1588
01:26:52.779 --> 01:26:55.520
that happened and the conditions were right with the barometric
1589
01:26:55.560 --> 01:26:58.159
pressure in the wintertime, we'd get a snow. Snow dumped
1590
01:26:58.239 --> 01:26:59.739
on us, had a snow day on the day it
1591
01:26:59.819 --> 01:27:02.300
said some time prior.
1592
01:27:04.020 --> 01:27:04.619
That's awesome.
1593
01:27:05.810 --> 01:27:08.949
And then the next thing, there was a record of
1594
01:27:09.010 --> 01:27:14.409
circus music that I coveted from kindergarten. I wasn't able
1595
01:27:14.430 --> 01:27:16.649
to find it at any of the places I bought records.
1596
01:27:16.729 --> 01:27:19.369
I was a huge vinyl connoisseur even as a child,
1597
01:27:19.409 --> 01:27:23.270
even though mostly children's records. there was this record that
1598
01:27:23.289 --> 01:27:25.310
they played for us in kindergarten that I just had
1599
01:27:25.329 --> 01:27:32.649
to have. So we got the Ouija board out, we
1600
01:27:32.689 --> 01:27:36.510
consulted it, and it gave us the name of a
1601
01:27:36.550 --> 01:27:41.310
fairly obscure used record store on Market Square in downtown Knoxville.
1602
01:27:42.390 --> 01:27:46.510
And sure enough, my mom looked it up in the
1603
01:27:46.550 --> 01:27:48.250
phone book, back when there used to be such a
1604
01:27:48.270 --> 01:27:50.920
thing as a phone book, Back then, even though they
1605
01:27:50.939 --> 01:27:52.899
were just a few miles apart, it was long distance
1606
01:27:52.939 --> 01:27:55.840
to call Knoxville from where we lived in West Knox County.
1607
01:27:55.880 --> 01:28:00.850
We had an Oak Ridge number. And she called the
1608
01:28:00.890 --> 01:28:06.529
record store and gave the title of the record to
1609
01:28:06.569 --> 01:28:08.170
the guy. And he said, I don't know. I'll look
1610
01:28:08.229 --> 01:28:10.550
and see. He's like, I've got thousands of records in here,
1611
01:28:10.609 --> 01:28:12.890
used records. He said, but if I run across it,
1612
01:28:12.989 --> 01:28:16.710
I'll call you. And I thought, okay, great. You know,
1613
01:28:16.729 --> 01:28:18.770
I'm not even six yet. I thought, now that's the
1614
01:28:18.850 --> 01:28:21.390
end of that. I'll just keep looking. But sure enough,
1615
01:28:21.590 --> 01:28:22.979
I don't remember if it was later that day or
1616
01:28:22.989 --> 01:28:25.899
maybe the next day, we got a call. It was
1617
01:28:25.920 --> 01:28:27.460
the guy calling back and he said, I was in
1618
01:28:27.500 --> 01:28:29.659
the back. I was looking for something else. And I
1619
01:28:29.699 --> 01:28:32.500
just happened to spot that because I'd given a detailed
1620
01:28:32.539 --> 01:28:36.199
description of what the cover looked like. right he said
1621
01:28:36.220 --> 01:28:38.659
that that just it fell open and there it was
1622
01:28:38.819 --> 01:28:42.590
in the stacks back there in my albums and I've
1623
01:28:42.619 --> 01:28:44.149
got it here I'll hold it for you if you
1624
01:28:44.189 --> 01:28:46.229
want me to and of course I begged my mom
1625
01:28:47.029 --> 01:28:49.229
and a few days later we took the trip downtown
1626
01:28:49.270 --> 01:28:51.770
and this was back when you shopped downtown this is
1627
01:28:51.810 --> 01:28:55.930
before the real advent of strip malls or any malls.
1628
01:28:56.470 --> 01:28:58.390
You went downtown to went shopping. You had to get
1629
01:28:58.449 --> 01:29:00.430
dressed up. You know, my mom would wear heels and
1630
01:29:00.489 --> 01:29:04.060
pearls and everything, but we went downtown. We went some
1631
01:29:04.100 --> 01:29:07.029
other places. I think we went to JCPenney's and we
1632
01:29:07.069 --> 01:29:11.079
had lunch at, uh, uh, Crest G's and, uh, things
1633
01:29:11.119 --> 01:29:13.819
like that. Just things that you did downtown. We had
1634
01:29:13.840 --> 01:29:16.220
a certain lot where we'd park and my mom knew
1635
01:29:16.239 --> 01:29:20.369
the parking attendant there, uh, Her family had sold produce there.
1636
01:29:20.390 --> 01:29:23.550
There was a produce market not too far from there,
1637
01:29:24.670 --> 01:29:27.060
a huge one. And sure enough, we got to the
1638
01:29:27.140 --> 01:29:30.079
record store. The guy had it, and I rode home
1639
01:29:30.100 --> 01:29:33.500
with it in my lap. Thank you, Weegee. But again,
1640
01:29:35.039 --> 01:29:37.659
not everybody has a good experience or a positive experience,
1641
01:29:37.699 --> 01:29:39.920
but Cisco and I have talked about that. It's a tool,
1642
01:29:40.659 --> 01:29:43.380
and a lot of it goes on the intent, what
1643
01:29:43.399 --> 01:29:45.520
you're going to do with it. These days, I wouldn't
1644
01:29:45.680 --> 01:29:47.920
touch one. I'm not afraid of them. I have I
1645
01:29:47.909 --> 01:29:51.279
had some experiences later. I'll go ahead and tell that story.
1646
01:29:53.420 --> 01:29:55.859
I was in college. I was working at a little
1647
01:29:55.939 --> 01:30:00.380
restaurant part-time, and a guy invited me to a party
1648
01:30:00.720 --> 01:30:03.000
after work. It was at an apartment complex just down
1649
01:30:03.039 --> 01:30:04.979
the road from where we were working there in the
1650
01:30:05.159 --> 01:30:08.659
Cedar Bluff area of West Knoxville. I thought, sure, I'll go.
1651
01:30:08.819 --> 01:30:11.500
I didn't really want to go study or anything anyway.
1652
01:30:12.159 --> 01:30:14.409
Not that night. And I get there, it's in the
1653
01:30:14.449 --> 01:30:17.529
clubhouse of this big apartment complex. I didn't know anybody
1654
01:30:17.569 --> 01:30:20.550
there besides the guy that invited me from work. And
1655
01:30:20.569 --> 01:30:22.529
I didn't really know him other than just from work.
1656
01:30:22.569 --> 01:30:26.029
So they, I don't know if they had it with
1657
01:30:26.050 --> 01:30:28.069
them or if they found it or something. But anyway,
1658
01:30:28.109 --> 01:30:30.869
some girls came up with a Ouija board. They decided
1659
01:30:30.909 --> 01:30:33.140
that they would get three or four of them to
1660
01:30:33.180 --> 01:30:36.060
do it. And they would go around this room in
1661
01:30:36.100 --> 01:30:40.899
the clubhouse and ask questions. And they got to me.
1662
01:30:41.930 --> 01:30:44.869
And the only thing I said was, what scared me
1663
01:30:45.149 --> 01:30:46.989
when I was a child? And I had a specific,
1664
01:30:47.069 --> 01:30:49.930
very specific incident in mind. It was the thing in
1665
01:30:49.970 --> 01:30:51.529
the woods that chased me out of the woods that
1666
01:30:51.569 --> 01:30:54.819
I couldn't see. I never told that story outside the
1667
01:30:54.859 --> 01:30:58.460
family at that point. My immediate family knew it. But certainly,
1668
01:30:58.479 --> 01:31:00.619
I never told it to the guy that I worked with.
1669
01:31:00.699 --> 01:31:02.239
And none of the people at the party knew it.
1670
01:31:02.880 --> 01:31:05.060
But the girls that are working the board, it starts
1671
01:31:05.100 --> 01:31:12.739
doing the figure eight. And it spells out W-A-T-E-R. S-P-R-I-T-E.
1672
01:31:13.659 --> 01:31:15.260
And they look at me. I just kind of shrugged.
1673
01:31:15.279 --> 01:31:19.000
And they're, water sprite. It's thirsty. It wants a drink. Ha, ha, ha, ha.
1674
01:31:19.479 --> 01:31:23.539
And then they went on to somebody else. But my
1675
01:31:23.579 --> 01:31:25.319
next day off, which might have been the next day,
1676
01:31:25.359 --> 01:31:28.279
I went to the big library downtown. And I went
1677
01:31:28.319 --> 01:31:30.060
up to the reference desk. And I said, what can
1678
01:31:30.079 --> 01:31:32.659
you tell me about a water sprite or a water spirit?
1679
01:31:33.739 --> 01:31:36.989
The reference librarian goes up into the stacks. A few
1680
01:31:37.010 --> 01:31:39.130
minutes later, she comes back. She's got some books there.
1681
01:31:39.960 --> 01:31:44.119
And she showed me a book. You probably know about
1682
01:31:44.159 --> 01:31:46.680
this kind of stuff. There was two of them. There
1683
01:31:46.699 --> 01:31:49.319
was a niad and a dryad. One was a spirit
1684
01:31:49.359 --> 01:31:50.960
of the water and the other was a spirit of
1685
01:31:50.979 --> 01:31:54.119
the woods. They're very similar, but they're elementals, a type
1686
01:31:54.140 --> 01:31:57.439
of the fae, if you will. And according to the
1687
01:31:57.479 --> 01:31:59.949
Ouija board, that's what chased me out of the woods
1688
01:32:00.109 --> 01:32:03.310
was a water spirit. And it wasn't some little gossamer
1689
01:32:03.449 --> 01:32:07.569
Tinkerbell thing. This thing shook the ground and knocked branches
1690
01:32:07.609 --> 01:32:09.699
out of the way higher than my head. I could
1691
01:32:09.720 --> 01:32:11.680
see the leaves being kicked up in its wake. I
1692
01:32:11.720 --> 01:32:13.539
couldn't see it, but I could see the effects it
1693
01:32:13.560 --> 01:32:16.260
was having on the natural environment. Ran me out of
1694
01:32:16.279 --> 01:32:18.920
the woods not once, but twice. Once at eight years old,
1695
01:32:18.960 --> 01:32:22.300
again at 15 years old. But according to Ouija board,
1696
01:32:22.479 --> 01:32:25.220
it was a Fae Folk, an elemental, a Nyad.
1697
01:32:26.220 --> 01:32:30.359
Yeah. Yep. Wanting you out of there for some reason.
1698
01:32:30.399 --> 01:32:32.810
Why only me? My dad, my brother both went up
1699
01:32:32.819 --> 01:32:35.409
there and looked around. I even took a, I brought
1700
01:32:35.449 --> 01:32:36.909
a kid home with me from school one time. I
1701
01:32:36.949 --> 01:32:39.189
sent him up there. Go and stand by the edge
1702
01:32:39.229 --> 01:32:40.970
of the ditch and see if you see anything. And
1703
01:32:41.010 --> 01:32:43.550
I stood way down the hill behind the tree. And
1704
01:32:43.609 --> 01:32:47.409
I go, he's just looking around. Nope, nothing. But nothing
1705
01:32:47.489 --> 01:32:49.770
came out of the woods and chased him around the
1706
01:32:49.810 --> 01:32:52.729
ditch rather. And then I even got brave. I went
1707
01:32:52.789 --> 01:32:54.729
up closer to the edge of the ditch and had
1708
01:32:54.770 --> 01:32:57.949
him stand down the hill. Didn't chase me. But the
1709
01:32:58.010 --> 01:32:59.649
two times that I went up there alone, one at
1710
01:32:59.750 --> 01:33:02.789
eight and one at 15, chased me right out of there.
1711
01:33:02.930 --> 01:33:05.939
What was that? I mean, do you know anything about
1712
01:33:05.979 --> 01:33:06.489
a NIAID?
1713
01:33:08.539 --> 01:33:11.840
Just basically what you said, they're water spirits, then the
1714
01:33:11.880 --> 01:33:17.300
dryads are the wood spirits. They're in classical mythology. And
1715
01:33:18.819 --> 01:33:22.390
normally when they're talked about, they're not, I mean, any
1716
01:33:24.109 --> 01:33:26.770
spirits from classical mythology don't tend to be like Tinkerbell
1717
01:33:26.789 --> 01:33:29.069
type spirits either, as far as that goes.
1718
01:33:29.210 --> 01:33:31.449
And that's the thing, you dig into the Fae folk,
1719
01:33:31.510 --> 01:33:35.489
and particularly in Celtic countries where that was almost a religion,
1720
01:33:35.550 --> 01:33:38.960
may still be, they were evil creatures. You had to
1721
01:33:39.000 --> 01:33:42.779
appease them and they would trick you. There's only like one,
1722
01:33:43.090 --> 01:33:45.529
there's different clans and different types. There's one type of
1723
01:33:45.550 --> 01:33:47.670
them that's kind of nice. I think those are pixies
1724
01:33:47.729 --> 01:33:52.289
or something, but I can't articulate all I know about it,
1725
01:33:52.329 --> 01:33:56.010
but they're not nice things, but they describe things like
1726
01:33:57.729 --> 01:34:00.800
in Ireland, the story I read from the 1700s, maybe
1727
01:34:00.939 --> 01:34:07.000
early 1800s about some little men in a horseless carriage
1728
01:34:07.039 --> 01:34:09.600
that came down from the sky. Well, there's a UFO experience.
1729
01:34:10.159 --> 01:34:12.060
Or there were types of them that were big hairy
1730
01:34:12.079 --> 01:34:14.819
men that lived in the woods. There's Bigfoot or Sasquatch
1731
01:34:14.859 --> 01:34:18.210
or Yowie or whatever. It's kind of an umbrella that
1732
01:34:18.329 --> 01:34:21.270
everything else fits under. But you can talk to a
1733
01:34:21.350 --> 01:34:25.170
Bigfoot enthusiast or a UFO experiencer and mention the Fae,
1734
01:34:25.189 --> 01:34:27.270
they'll snicker at you. They're like, oh, that doesn't. But
1735
01:34:27.949 --> 01:34:30.430
I think it does. I think it all ties together.
1736
01:34:30.529 --> 01:34:32.310
Do you have any thoughts on that? I'm sorry to
1737
01:34:32.350 --> 01:34:33.380
put you on the spot here.
1738
01:34:33.399 --> 01:34:36.239
I agree. No, it's fine. No, I think that it
1739
01:34:36.359 --> 01:34:38.619
all ties together. And I think that we'd get more.
1740
01:34:38.640 --> 01:34:40.949
I mean, we talked about earlier how you end up
1741
01:34:40.989 --> 01:34:42.930
with more questions than answers, but I think that we'd
1742
01:34:42.970 --> 01:34:45.390
end up with some more answers if we would all
1743
01:34:45.430 --> 01:34:47.770
kind of work together and get over this. Well, you know,
1744
01:34:47.789 --> 01:34:51.069
this is real, but that's not kind of situation. It's
1745
01:34:51.350 --> 01:34:57.659
all weird. It's all strange. So there's definitely... corresponding things
1746
01:34:57.720 --> 01:35:02.029
about UFOs, between ghosts, between cryptids that just overlap one another,
1747
01:35:02.050 --> 01:35:03.729
that if we were to take the time and actually
1748
01:35:03.789 --> 01:35:05.949
communicate with one another, I think that we might have
1749
01:35:06.609 --> 01:35:08.949
more answers. I'm not saying that we would have answers
1750
01:35:08.970 --> 01:35:11.109
to everything, but we would have more than what we
1751
01:35:11.149 --> 01:35:12.840
have now. At least that's my belief.
1752
01:35:13.899 --> 01:35:15.960
I agree. And it would fit it within a broader
1753
01:35:16.039 --> 01:35:19.880
scope from which to do those studies and things from.
1754
01:35:19.920 --> 01:35:23.779
But yeah, people will fight you over their individual beliefs.
1755
01:35:23.890 --> 01:35:27.189
I've seen that happen at Bigfoot conferences, and then when
1756
01:35:27.270 --> 01:35:29.970
I spoke at a UFO conference in San Francisco a
1757
01:35:30.789 --> 01:35:34.470
couple years ago. Now, obviously, people almost get into fistfights
1758
01:35:34.550 --> 01:35:36.489
over stuff, and you're like, that's not why we're here
1759
01:35:36.529 --> 01:35:39.270
to argue. We're here to present our opinion, not necessarily
1760
01:35:39.310 --> 01:35:42.090
to defend it, and a lot of people don't get that.
1761
01:35:42.170 --> 01:35:45.149
On this show, I've had a couple of pastors on
1762
01:35:45.210 --> 01:35:49.670
from Sound the Shofar Messianic Ministries and look at the
1763
01:35:49.710 --> 01:35:53.489
paranormal and UFOs and things like that from not only
1764
01:35:53.529 --> 01:35:56.250
a biblical perspective, but from the perspective of the Torah
1765
01:35:56.289 --> 01:36:01.270
being Messianic Jews, they follow both the Torah and the Bible.
1766
01:36:01.909 --> 01:36:05.510
And they had some interesting things to say. Again, you know, people,
1767
01:36:05.989 --> 01:36:08.520
it's controversial and not everybody's going to agree with it,
1768
01:36:08.560 --> 01:36:10.899
but I like to keep an open mind. You know,
1769
01:36:10.920 --> 01:36:13.880
I don't think, especially when you have something like this,
1770
01:36:15.020 --> 01:36:17.140
that there are no experts and there are no answers.
1771
01:36:17.180 --> 01:36:19.640
There is no right or wrong opinion, but I like
1772
01:36:19.659 --> 01:36:22.710
to hear other people's opinion. I didn't invite them hear
1773
01:36:22.729 --> 01:36:24.390
any of the times that they've been on to beat
1774
01:36:24.409 --> 01:36:26.069
them up about it or get them to defend it.
1775
01:36:26.130 --> 01:36:28.229
I just want to know what that opinion is.
1776
01:36:29.229 --> 01:36:33.279
Yeah. Yeah, exactly. And it's weird. Not only do you
1777
01:36:33.340 --> 01:36:38.119
see the fighting between the different groups, between UFOs and
1778
01:36:38.140 --> 01:36:40.899
ghosts and Bigfoot and things like that, but we also,
1779
01:36:41.100 --> 01:36:43.520
as humans, apparently like to fight about anything we can
1780
01:36:43.539 --> 01:36:47.029
fight about, and there's infighting even within those particular communities.
1781
01:36:47.050 --> 01:36:52.880
The In the Bigfoot community, people take a side as
1782
01:36:52.920 --> 01:36:55.039
to what they think Bigfoot is, and then that's the
1783
01:36:55.159 --> 01:36:58.180
only way. They don't want to hear any other arguments
1784
01:36:58.220 --> 01:37:00.819
to it. And the same thing with Dogman. I mean,
1785
01:37:01.939 --> 01:37:04.770
it gets pretty vicious sometimes, and I just don't understand it.
1786
01:37:04.840 --> 01:37:09.010
I don't get why we're so drawn to wanting to
1787
01:37:09.550 --> 01:37:11.710
fight and have all of this drama instead of trying
1788
01:37:11.750 --> 01:37:13.630
to figure things out. Like you said, we don't have
1789
01:37:13.729 --> 01:37:17.369
experts in this field. We don't have the answers like that.
1790
01:37:17.449 --> 01:37:19.569
So what are we doing?
1791
01:37:20.359 --> 01:37:23.020
It reminds me of the movie from the 70s, The Warriors.
1792
01:37:23.060 --> 01:37:25.060
Did you ever see that about the gangs in New
1793
01:37:25.100 --> 01:37:30.260
York City? Cyrus, the leader of all the gangs, was
1794
01:37:30.300 --> 01:37:33.439
trying to tell them that. He said, we're here. Between us,
1795
01:37:33.470 --> 01:37:36.409
we're fighting over a few square feet of sidewalk, our turf.
1796
01:37:36.890 --> 01:37:39.890
He said, but if we band together, we outnumber everybody,
1797
01:37:40.010 --> 01:37:42.390
the police and everything, and we could run New York City.
1798
01:37:42.430 --> 01:37:46.109
And then they killed him. And that was the whole
1799
01:37:46.170 --> 01:37:48.899
movie was The Warriors. got blamed for it, and they
1800
01:37:48.930 --> 01:37:50.829
were trying to make their way back to their turf,
1801
01:37:50.850 --> 01:37:53.710
which was at Coney Island. It's a great movie. It's
1802
01:37:53.750 --> 01:37:56.970
very dated, but that's always stuck with me. You know,
1803
01:37:56.989 --> 01:37:59.810
we're here fighting over a few feet of sidewalk, when
1804
01:37:59.850 --> 01:38:02.659
if we band together, we're bigger than everything out there.
1805
01:38:03.539 --> 01:38:04.500
Yeah, exactly.
1806
01:38:05.079 --> 01:38:06.420
And that's the way I worked the name of the
1807
01:38:06.479 --> 01:38:09.180
show in there unintentionally. Everything out there.
1808
01:38:09.199 --> 01:38:10.939
There you go. Perfect.
1809
01:38:11.619 --> 01:38:17.500
Unintended plug there for my own show. Heather, what have
1810
01:38:17.520 --> 01:38:20.340
you got coming up? You mentioned some of the small-town
1811
01:38:20.359 --> 01:38:22.159
monster stuff. What else is going on for you?
1812
01:38:24.039 --> 01:38:27.949
Well, I recently had a short story printed in something
1813
01:38:28.029 --> 01:38:32.630
called The Archbishop. it's an anthology of different short stories
1814
01:38:32.909 --> 01:38:37.020
um congratulations thank you thank you uh that short story
1815
01:38:37.060 --> 01:38:40.100
is called the wendigo that one was a lot of
1816
01:38:40.140 --> 01:38:42.840
fun to to write a different kind of playing with
1817
01:38:42.899 --> 01:38:45.840
perspective a little bit on that so i've got that
1818
01:38:46.279 --> 01:38:50.010
um And then I have articles in the Feminine Macabre
1819
01:38:50.329 --> 01:38:56.130
series in journals one, three, and five. So I talk
1820
01:38:56.189 --> 01:39:01.380
about cursed objects, particularly the rocks from the Bell Witch
1821
01:39:01.420 --> 01:39:04.680
Cave in the first journal. In the third one, I
1822
01:39:05.079 --> 01:39:08.819
talk about headless ghosts. And then in the fifth one,
1823
01:39:08.840 --> 01:39:13.430
I talk about Goatman, which reminds me, I wanted to
1824
01:39:13.569 --> 01:39:16.050
ask you, Steve, if you've heard of any Goatman stories
1825
01:39:16.149 --> 01:39:16.770
from Tennessee.
1826
01:39:18.840 --> 01:39:21.659
Not from Tennessee in particular, but let me look into
1827
01:39:21.720 --> 01:39:24.039
my research and I'll get back with you on that.
1828
01:39:24.119 --> 01:39:29.140
I did something about the goat man or goat men recently.
1829
01:39:29.699 --> 01:39:32.359
Bart Nunley wrote a thing for me and I narrated
1830
01:39:32.399 --> 01:39:35.430
it for a project I had called Weird World. But
1831
01:39:35.689 --> 01:39:37.909
I've got some other stuff. Let me look and see.
1832
01:39:40.029 --> 01:39:42.729
Just everything you mentioned there is something that I've looked
1833
01:39:42.770 --> 01:39:46.220
into at one time or another. You mentioned the Bell Witch. Now,
1834
01:39:46.279 --> 01:39:48.220
growing up in East Tennessee, that was a big deal
1835
01:39:48.260 --> 01:39:50.920
for me. Not as much as it was for kids
1836
01:39:50.979 --> 01:39:54.000
in Middle Tennessee. But I told you a story that
1837
01:39:54.039 --> 01:39:57.380
you'd never heard about a Bloody Mary type game that
1838
01:39:57.420 --> 01:39:59.600
we played in grade school that was based on the
1839
01:39:59.649 --> 01:40:02.649
Bell Witch. And it worked kind of the same. You
1840
01:40:02.659 --> 01:40:05.470
went into a darkened bathroom and you peered into the mirror.
1841
01:40:06.210 --> 01:40:08.289
And instead of saying Bloody Mary three times, you said,
1842
01:40:08.369 --> 01:40:11.250
I don't believe in the Bell Witch three times. She
1843
01:40:11.270 --> 01:40:13.090
would supposedly come out of the mirror and scratch you
1844
01:40:13.149 --> 01:40:15.449
on the face and I was at a kid party
1845
01:40:15.560 --> 01:40:18.560
one time, somebody's birthday party. I was maybe eight, nine
1846
01:40:18.579 --> 01:40:21.359
years old. Little girl went in the bathroom, did that.
1847
01:40:21.479 --> 01:40:24.039
Sure enough, she came running out screaming, had three scratches
1848
01:40:24.119 --> 01:40:29.010
on her face. Now, probably self-inflicted, but it scared the
1849
01:40:29.050 --> 01:40:31.369
pants off all the little kids at that party anyway.
1850
01:40:32.050 --> 01:40:34.670
Well, sure. Yeah, you definitely don't want to mess with
1851
01:40:34.689 --> 01:40:36.130
the Bell Witch. That's for sure.
1852
01:40:37.489 --> 01:40:39.989
And I also told you the story about how the
1853
01:40:40.029 --> 01:40:42.720
library book at the big library in Knoxville was perpetually
1854
01:40:42.779 --> 01:40:45.949
checked out. You couldn't find, I can't remember the name
1855
01:40:45.970 --> 01:40:48.810
of the book. It was one of the preeminent Bell
1856
01:40:48.850 --> 01:40:53.409
Witch books. And the story that was told when it
1857
01:40:53.529 --> 01:40:57.050
finally did come back after a couple of years, it
1858
01:40:57.109 --> 01:41:00.609
was said that then it was in the special collections.
1859
01:41:00.670 --> 01:41:02.569
You could only look at it there at the library,
1860
01:41:02.949 --> 01:41:05.840
probably because it was a rare book. But the story
1861
01:41:05.880 --> 01:41:08.539
that was told on the playground was that when they
1862
01:41:08.600 --> 01:41:10.859
finally found it, the guy that had checked it out
1863
01:41:11.119 --> 01:41:13.359
for a couple of years said, was found dead in
1864
01:41:13.399 --> 01:41:15.199
his bed, and that was what he was reading, and
1865
01:41:15.239 --> 01:41:16.869
he had been there for some time, nothing but a
1866
01:41:16.909 --> 01:41:20.090
skeleton left, but they returned the book to the library,
1867
01:41:20.130 --> 01:41:22.069
and that's why nobody could check it out, because it
1868
01:41:22.109 --> 01:41:22.649
was cursed.
1869
01:41:23.829 --> 01:41:24.909
That's quite a story.
1870
01:41:24.930 --> 01:41:29.590
Made for interesting playground fodder. That would be a book
1871
01:41:29.649 --> 01:41:34.649
right there, Strange Things on the Playground, and people recount
1872
01:41:34.689 --> 01:41:38.420
their stuff they heard as kids. I've done stuff about
1873
01:41:38.479 --> 01:41:42.050
urban legends, and stories from a friend of a friend,
1874
01:41:42.449 --> 01:41:45.399
gospel truth. Oh, no, that really happened. It happened to
1875
01:41:45.409 --> 01:41:53.640
our neighbor's cousin's uncle's nephew. Right. But nothing shattered my world.
1876
01:41:54.100 --> 01:41:59.000
John Harold Brunvond, I think he's a professor of folklore
1877
01:41:59.100 --> 01:42:02.300
and mythology somewhere in Utah. He put out a book
1878
01:42:02.439 --> 01:42:04.779
in the 70s called The Vanishing Hitchhiker was the first one.
1879
01:42:04.819 --> 01:42:08.899
He did a series of books. And a lot of
1880
01:42:08.920 --> 01:42:12.020
those stories, I'd heard those as gospel truth growing up. No, no,
1881
01:42:12.079 --> 01:42:14.630
that happened to my cousin. No, that one happened to
1882
01:42:14.689 --> 01:42:16.890
a friend of a lady that does my mom's hair.
1883
01:42:17.750 --> 01:42:20.909
These stories happen, but they didn't. And, you know, they
1884
01:42:21.329 --> 01:42:25.810
served as cautionary tales and kept me out of some
1885
01:42:25.850 --> 01:42:27.680
trouble probably, you know, kept me out of the lake
1886
01:42:27.739 --> 01:42:30.579
because of water moccasins or kept me from going to
1887
01:42:30.600 --> 01:42:33.399
the bathroom at Walmart because some kid was mutilated in
1888
01:42:33.420 --> 01:42:37.350
there as part of a gang initiation. Full runner to Walmart.
1889
01:42:37.449 --> 01:42:39.479
We had a local store there in Knoxville. I think
1890
01:42:39.520 --> 01:42:43.560
it was local called Walmart, A-L-M-A-R-T. And the story was
1891
01:42:43.609 --> 01:42:47.420
that the kid, it was around his eighth birthday. He
1892
01:42:47.439 --> 01:42:49.420
had gone to the, wanted to go to the bathroom
1893
01:42:49.439 --> 01:42:51.060
by himself. He said, mom, I'm too big to go
1894
01:42:51.079 --> 01:42:52.880
to the ladies room with you. I'll go by myself.
1895
01:42:53.520 --> 01:42:55.359
So she stands there, waits on him. He goes to
1896
01:42:55.380 --> 01:42:59.199
the bathroom. He's gone, gone, gone, gone. Never comes out.
1897
01:42:59.300 --> 01:43:01.680
Instead of going and looking for him, next person, the
1898
01:43:01.720 --> 01:43:03.619
next male that starts. And she said, sir, would you
1899
01:43:03.640 --> 01:43:05.880
tell me if there's a, little boy in there and
1900
01:43:05.899 --> 01:43:08.460
describes him guy goes in he comes running back out
1901
01:43:08.479 --> 01:43:11.359
he said lady um you better get in there with
1902
01:43:11.399 --> 01:43:12.819
him i'm going to go up front and ask him
1903
01:43:12.859 --> 01:43:15.979
to call an ambulance and as part of a gang
1904
01:43:16.000 --> 01:43:18.859
initiation and she had mentioned earlier in the story that
1905
01:43:18.899 --> 01:43:21.319
she saw three dirty looking boys come out of there
1906
01:43:21.390 --> 01:43:24.970
three uh trashy looking boys come out well they've been
1907
01:43:25.010 --> 01:43:27.869
part of a gang and as part of initiation they
1908
01:43:28.050 --> 01:43:32.090
uh castrated this little boy oh my goodness through his
1909
01:43:32.729 --> 01:43:34.750
member in the parking lot where it was run over
1910
01:43:34.810 --> 01:43:37.189
by a car and couldn't be saved. He had to
1911
01:43:37.250 --> 01:43:41.069
have a sexual reassignment surgery and change schools. But I
1912
01:43:41.109 --> 01:43:43.989
heard that as a kid and believed every single word
1913
01:43:44.060 --> 01:43:46.260
of it. I was in there with my parents one time.
1914
01:43:46.720 --> 01:43:48.579
I had to go to the bathroom. I couldn't even
1915
01:43:48.640 --> 01:43:51.840
find my mom and dad. So instead of Raven, this
1916
01:43:51.859 --> 01:43:54.939
was the Walmart on Clinton Highway. Instead of going in
1917
01:43:54.979 --> 01:43:57.760
there by myself, I went outside around the building to
1918
01:43:57.800 --> 01:44:00.300
around in the back in the dark and peed on
1919
01:44:00.340 --> 01:44:06.569
the wall. much more danger back there. But yeah, that
1920
01:44:06.609 --> 01:44:08.930
was so ingrained in my head that I'm not going
1921
01:44:08.949 --> 01:44:10.369
to go to the bathroom in there. I know what
1922
01:44:10.409 --> 01:44:12.550
happens in there. I'll go outside and pee by the dumpster.
1923
01:44:14.810 --> 01:44:17.539
But again, that book, that story was in there that
1924
01:44:17.579 --> 01:44:19.380
I think the severed penis was the name of it.
1925
01:44:19.439 --> 01:44:22.680
But again, I heard that as gospel truth and believed it.
1926
01:44:23.380 --> 01:44:25.600
And the one about the Avon lady that wasn't an
1927
01:44:25.659 --> 01:44:28.659
Avon lady, that was a, a man in a dress
1928
01:44:28.720 --> 01:44:30.800
and in his Avon sample bag, he had a hatchet
1929
01:44:30.840 --> 01:44:32.720
and a hank of rope and some handcuffs, you know,
1930
01:44:32.779 --> 01:44:33.800
and all that.
1931
01:44:33.899 --> 01:44:35.180
Oh my goodness.
1932
01:44:35.239 --> 01:44:38.890
The beauty shop, the beauty parlor. And back in my day,
1933
01:44:38.899 --> 01:44:41.850
in the late sixties, early seventies, a lot of women,
1934
01:44:41.869 --> 01:44:44.029
particularly in our community in East Tennessee, they would have
1935
01:44:44.069 --> 01:44:47.229
those shops in their basement. Not only did they make
1936
01:44:47.270 --> 01:44:49.310
a few extra bucks doing hair, but they got all
1937
01:44:49.350 --> 01:44:53.970
the neighborhood gossip. I heard similar stories from both. My
1938
01:44:54.109 --> 01:44:56.350
mom got her hair done, two different ladies because they
1939
01:44:56.390 --> 01:45:01.029
were both friends. her friend, so she alternated, but heard
1940
01:45:01.069 --> 01:45:04.350
those stories at both beauty shops when I would tag
1941
01:45:04.369 --> 01:45:06.409
along and sit in one of the dryer chairs while
1942
01:45:06.470 --> 01:45:09.550
my mom was getting a permanent. But again, I grew up,
1943
01:45:09.670 --> 01:45:12.449
and some of the others, the one about the kid
1944
01:45:12.489 --> 01:45:15.689
water skiing and running into a nest of water moccasins
1945
01:45:15.750 --> 01:45:17.680
and dying before they could get him out of the water.
1946
01:45:18.270 --> 01:45:21.399
My aunt from Alabama told that, that it happened to
1947
01:45:21.439 --> 01:45:23.659
a friend or a kid that her son went to
1948
01:45:23.699 --> 01:45:28.020
school with in Scottsboro, Alabama. Never happened. But again, there
1949
01:45:28.039 --> 01:45:31.640
was just such a part of childhood fears and things.
1950
01:45:32.500 --> 01:45:34.960
Yeah, that's what you were talking about. The book always
1951
01:45:35.000 --> 01:45:37.140
being checked out. It reminds me of the book that
1952
01:45:37.159 --> 01:45:39.619
was always checked out when I was in elementary school
1953
01:45:39.640 --> 01:45:45.479
was Scary Stories to Tell in the Dark. And that
1954
01:45:45.560 --> 01:45:48.350
one had very similar things. It had, well, all kinds
1955
01:45:48.390 --> 01:45:51.350
of scary stories, so to speak, but mostly urban legends.
1956
01:45:51.409 --> 01:45:54.520
And so there were stories of like the spot you know,
1957
01:45:54.539 --> 01:45:56.720
where somebody had what looked like a pimple on their face,
1958
01:45:56.760 --> 01:46:01.239
but it was actually spider eggs had been nested on
1959
01:46:01.260 --> 01:46:02.970
their face, and then it would just explode, and there'd
1960
01:46:02.979 --> 01:46:03.739
be spiders everywhere.
1961
01:46:03.770 --> 01:46:07.069
Yeah, that was an urban legend, too, and the tale
1962
01:46:07.090 --> 01:46:09.550
that I heard from the 60s was it was a
1963
01:46:09.590 --> 01:46:12.869
bouffant hairdo. The girl had her hair piled up, and
1964
01:46:12.930 --> 01:46:15.109
rather than take it down, she just kept lacquering it
1965
01:46:15.149 --> 01:46:17.890
with hairspray until it was just a solid mass of hair,
1966
01:46:18.569 --> 01:46:22.340
and spiders got in there and laid eggs, and hatched
1967
01:46:22.439 --> 01:46:24.479
out and they were like eating into her brain or
1968
01:46:24.520 --> 01:46:27.460
something i don't know it was this frightening but yeah
1969
01:46:27.500 --> 01:46:30.590
that's another one of those oh it happened but it didn't.
1970
01:46:30.470 --> 01:46:35.710
Yeah yeah but learning tools trying to scare the kids.
1971
01:46:35.829 --> 01:46:38.369
Yeah and i'm just getting into the stories told in
1972
01:46:38.390 --> 01:46:40.670
the dark my wife's from that era she was born
1973
01:46:40.710 --> 01:46:44.119
in 85 and uh i've come to appreciate those in
1974
01:46:44.140 --> 01:46:47.220
the goosebumps series i never really paid much attention to
1975
01:46:47.279 --> 01:46:49.640
those but she was big into that so we've got
1976
01:46:49.659 --> 01:46:52.750
to a collection of R.L. Stine books going here.
1977
01:46:53.449 --> 01:46:54.569
That's pretty awesome.
1978
01:46:54.649 --> 01:46:58.470
And I loved the scholastic stuff when I was a kid. Mrs.
1979
01:46:58.489 --> 01:47:01.850
Coverlet's Magicians and what was the other one that I
1980
01:47:01.930 --> 01:47:06.489
absolutely adored? The Mad Scientist Club by Burton Brindley. And
1981
01:47:06.529 --> 01:47:12.619
that's just... Those books just spurred me on. And there
1982
01:47:12.640 --> 01:47:15.220
was a lot of spooky stuff back then, too. And
1983
01:47:15.239 --> 01:47:19.060
some of the trailer stuff with Frank Edwards' books. Strange World,
1984
01:47:19.119 --> 01:47:23.500
Stranger Than Science, Stranger Than Fiction. I read a lot
1985
01:47:23.539 --> 01:47:26.319
of those introductions to a lot of stuff within the
1986
01:47:26.340 --> 01:47:29.600
paranormal realm of supernatural for me. And everything in there
1987
01:47:29.619 --> 01:47:32.960
wasn't supernatural, so it was just strange. But those stories
1988
01:47:32.979 --> 01:47:36.159
had a way. The David Lang disappearance where the guy
1989
01:47:36.229 --> 01:47:39.609
was walking across a field and disappeared in full view
1990
01:47:39.649 --> 01:47:41.829
of his wife and children and the two guys in
1991
01:47:41.869 --> 01:47:44.229
a buggy coming up the road. That was the first
1992
01:47:44.270 --> 01:47:46.350
place I ever heard that was in a Frank Edwards book.
1993
01:47:46.430 --> 01:47:46.729
So....
1994
01:47:48.050 --> 01:47:48.750
Books are the key.
1995
01:47:48.770 --> 01:47:49.229
Yeah.
1996
01:47:49.270 --> 01:47:52.229
Books were always an escape for me. I didn't have
1997
01:47:52.289 --> 01:47:55.090
any friends, but I had a lot of books. Yeah.
1998
01:47:55.210 --> 01:47:59.180
We used to have this. We used to have this
1999
01:47:59.239 --> 01:48:02.319
program called Riff. Reading is fundamental.
2000
01:48:02.979 --> 01:48:03.319
Yeah.
2001
01:48:03.680 --> 01:48:08.060
And that's where I got introduced to a series called
2002
01:48:08.100 --> 01:48:11.470
the Bailey School Kids. And the first, the first book
2003
01:48:11.510 --> 01:48:12.909
that I picked up from that series happened to be
2004
01:48:12.949 --> 01:48:14.829
the first book from the series, luckily, but it was
2005
01:48:14.890 --> 01:48:18.220
called Vampires Don't Wear Polka Dots. And it follows these
2006
01:48:18.670 --> 01:48:22.279
kids that... uh every time there's like a new teacher
2007
01:48:22.300 --> 01:48:25.140
a new janitor or something they they have this theory
2008
01:48:25.180 --> 01:48:28.239
that they're a vampire another one's like ghosts don't eat
2009
01:48:28.279 --> 01:48:30.939
potato chips or whatever and um.
2010
01:48:31.279 --> 01:48:33.359
My wife's mentioned those too she's a fan of those
2011
01:48:33.399 --> 01:48:34.460
i need to read those.
2012
01:48:34.840 --> 01:48:37.750
They are so good I have like the first 20
2013
01:48:37.750 --> 01:48:40.029
some still from whenever I was a child. I've got
2014
01:48:40.050 --> 01:48:44.069
them on the shelf over here. But that also brought
2015
01:48:44.109 --> 01:48:45.729
me into that world because there was a Bigfoot one.
2016
01:48:45.770 --> 01:48:47.850
There was a werewolf one. There was a vampire one.
2017
01:48:47.890 --> 01:48:51.229
There was a goblin. I think there was even like, well,
2018
01:48:51.250 --> 01:48:55.130
I know there was a leprechaun one. But yeah, they
2019
01:48:55.170 --> 01:48:57.609
covered all kinds of things like that. And so I
2020
01:48:57.680 --> 01:48:59.609
read more of those than I did the Goosebumps series.
2021
01:48:59.720 --> 01:49:02.159
I did read Goosebumps, but I was into the Bailey
2022
01:49:02.180 --> 01:49:03.239
School Kids a little bit more.
2023
01:49:05.029 --> 01:49:09.189
And this was another touchstone for her. Are you afraid
2024
01:49:09.229 --> 01:49:11.170
of the dark? Did you watch those shows?
2025
01:49:11.449 --> 01:49:12.750
Yes. Yes, I did.
2026
01:49:14.149 --> 01:49:16.760
And in fact, that's one of the names she uses
2027
01:49:16.920 --> 01:49:23.680
on YouTube is Midnight Society. And that's how I first
2028
01:49:23.760 --> 01:49:26.220
noticed her when she was coming and listening to me.
2029
01:49:26.720 --> 01:49:29.079
That name stood out to me in the chat and
2030
01:49:29.100 --> 01:49:31.600
it just kind of went from there. But we watched
2031
01:49:31.649 --> 01:49:33.770
those and I'm a big fan. I watched them as
2032
01:49:33.829 --> 01:49:38.260
an adult. I was in college, but I love those shows.
2033
01:49:38.359 --> 01:49:41.380
And DJ McHale, who wrote a lot of those and
2034
01:49:41.579 --> 01:49:43.520
a lot of them under a pen name because he
2035
01:49:43.539 --> 01:49:45.899
didn't want his name all over everything. He's a friend
2036
01:49:45.939 --> 01:49:47.760
of mine. I'm going to have him on the show sometime.
2037
01:49:48.460 --> 01:49:51.619
He influenced a whole generation of kids there and for
2038
01:49:51.640 --> 01:49:54.460
a kid's show. And you'll see if you agree here.
2039
01:49:54.479 --> 01:49:58.100
That was some of the scariest stuff ever on television. Yeah.
2040
01:49:58.520 --> 01:50:00.699
Yeah. They did a good job with it. That's for sure.
2041
01:50:03.630 --> 01:50:06.390
And I'd like to talk to R.L. Stine, too. I've
2042
01:50:06.489 --> 01:50:10.600
got some juvenile fiction that's heard in the works. And
2043
01:50:11.520 --> 01:50:14.920
my wife's working on a book, too, in that same vein.
2044
01:50:15.060 --> 01:50:18.600
And it's going to be a lot of fun. And
2045
01:50:19.119 --> 01:50:21.300
I love the idea of writing for kids. But I just,
2046
01:50:21.800 --> 01:50:23.739
I don't know. I turned 60 last year. I don't
2047
01:50:23.760 --> 01:50:25.420
know if I'm so far out of touch that I
2048
01:50:25.460 --> 01:50:28.829
couldn't write for this generation of kids. But I'd like
2049
01:50:28.869 --> 01:50:30.710
to give it a try. Right.
2050
01:50:30.930 --> 01:50:34.439
I think you should do it. I support this wholeheartedly.
2051
01:50:34.899 --> 01:50:39.560
Okay. Well, thank you. But now you mentioned the weird
2052
01:50:39.600 --> 01:50:42.420
writer blog. There was some of your articles over there
2053
01:50:42.460 --> 01:50:44.600
that I wanted you to do for 13 past midnight.
2054
01:50:44.680 --> 01:50:48.649
And you did, thankfully. Are you still right for that?
2055
01:50:48.659 --> 01:50:50.189
Does Heather still do that? I've been out of the
2056
01:50:50.229 --> 01:50:52.449
loop on a lot of this peripheral stuff for a while.
2057
01:50:52.489 --> 01:50:53.609
I'm not sure what's going on.
2058
01:50:54.989 --> 01:50:56.949
No, I haven't written for Shannon in a while.
2059
01:50:57.869 --> 01:50:59.270
Did I say Heather? I meant Shannon.
2060
01:50:59.310 --> 01:50:59.510
Yeah.
2061
01:50:59.970 --> 01:51:00.409
Yeah.
2062
01:51:00.449 --> 01:51:04.609
That's okay. She... She basically got to a point where
2063
01:51:04.649 --> 01:51:07.529
she was like, listen, you need to start writing for
2064
01:51:07.569 --> 01:51:11.850
yourself and get more things out there. Quit writing for me.
2065
01:51:11.869 --> 01:51:21.149
One that particularly stands out is Witches and Silver Bullets. Yes.
2066
01:51:21.180 --> 01:51:22.350
Do you remember that one?
2067
01:51:22.380 --> 01:51:22.649
Yes.
2068
01:51:23.060 --> 01:51:25.960
And I think you narrated that one as well. I did.
2069
01:51:26.079 --> 01:51:30.220
I'd always heard about the silver bullet as a way
2070
01:51:30.239 --> 01:51:33.159
to fend off the wolf man. But I'd never heard
2071
01:51:33.180 --> 01:51:36.260
of it being used against witches. So that was educational
2072
01:51:36.279 --> 01:51:36.640
for me.
2073
01:51:37.880 --> 01:51:41.890
Yeah, yeah. I had found a lot of that in
2074
01:51:42.750 --> 01:51:46.109
Patrick Gaynor's Witches, Ghosts, and Signs. There are stories in
2075
01:51:46.149 --> 01:51:48.670
there about the silver bullet. And even in the Bell
2076
01:51:48.710 --> 01:51:51.310
Witch story, there was a guy who claimed to be
2077
01:51:51.350 --> 01:51:53.199
a witch hunter and came in with a silver bullet,
2078
01:51:53.479 --> 01:51:56.670
waving it around, saying, that he could handle the witch.
2079
01:51:57.050 --> 01:51:58.989
And of course she put him to shame and had
2080
01:51:59.010 --> 01:52:04.539
him running out crying. But, uh, yeah, it is something,
2081
01:52:04.579 --> 01:52:06.899
like you said, most people think about it's keeping the
2082
01:52:06.939 --> 01:52:10.539
werewolves away, but, uh, witches are, are known to be,
2083
01:52:10.699 --> 01:52:12.680
that's one of their weaknesses are the silver bullets.
2084
01:52:13.680 --> 01:52:16.140
My granny used garlic. And even though she was a
2085
01:52:16.159 --> 01:52:19.199
self-proclaimed witch, there were other witches that she didn't want
2086
01:52:19.229 --> 01:52:22.630
anything to do with. Um, and the old farmhouse she
2087
01:52:22.670 --> 01:52:25.829
lived in, old Victorian farmhouse had the old, uh, keyholes
2088
01:52:26.069 --> 01:52:28.109
in the doors and she would put a clove of
2089
01:52:28.170 --> 01:52:30.529
garlic in there to keep witches from coming through the
2090
01:52:30.609 --> 01:52:32.229
keyhole have you ever heard anything like.
2091
01:52:32.109 --> 01:52:35.829
That yeah well not putting garlic in there but definitely
2092
01:52:35.869 --> 01:52:38.439
heard about them coming through the keyhole and shape-shifting into
2093
01:52:38.489 --> 01:52:40.569
like black cats and things like that to get into
2094
01:52:40.909 --> 01:52:41.329
they could.
2095
01:52:41.220 --> 01:52:45.060
Come down the fireplace too and um what was the
2096
01:52:45.100 --> 01:52:47.359
other thing she used to do uh now of course
2097
01:52:47.399 --> 01:52:49.680
when anybody died they hung a cloth over the mirror
2098
01:52:49.720 --> 01:52:51.340
but that was to keep the spirit from getting trapped
2099
01:52:51.380 --> 01:52:54.770
in the house um their porches the the feeling of
2100
01:52:54.810 --> 01:52:56.800
the porch, the roof of the porch, the underneath of
2101
01:52:56.840 --> 01:52:59.420
it anyway, was always painted haint blue. Have you ever
2102
01:52:59.439 --> 01:53:00.819
heard the story behind that?
2103
01:53:01.699 --> 01:53:01.939
Yes.
2104
01:53:02.840 --> 01:53:05.399
That a spirit coming up to enter the house up
2105
01:53:05.420 --> 01:53:07.439
to no good would look up and see that and
2106
01:53:07.479 --> 01:53:09.340
think it was the sky and fly up through the
2107
01:53:09.560 --> 01:53:13.239
porch roof and be gone. Must have worked because I
2108
01:53:13.270 --> 01:53:19.949
don't think her house was haunted. But I really enjoy
2109
01:53:19.970 --> 01:53:23.229
a lot of the folklore and stuff that particularly from
2110
01:53:23.250 --> 01:53:25.409
the Southern Appalachians. I mean, that's where I grew up,
2111
01:53:25.449 --> 01:53:28.220
but it sounds like there's parts of that in the
2112
01:53:28.300 --> 01:53:31.399
Appalachians that are close to you there too, the Northern part.
2113
01:53:32.239 --> 01:53:32.579
Oh yeah.
2114
01:53:33.199 --> 01:53:33.460
Yeah.
2115
01:53:33.520 --> 01:53:36.500
It's definitely been interesting to look at some of the
2116
01:53:36.579 --> 01:53:39.560
overlap between the Northern and the Southern Appalachians and our stories.
2117
01:53:40.319 --> 01:53:44.239
It's just that it seems like there was a higher
2118
01:53:44.279 --> 01:53:48.460
degree of storytelling in general in the Southern Appalachians, if
2119
01:53:48.500 --> 01:53:52.020
that makes sense. And that seems to be written down more,
2120
01:53:52.260 --> 01:53:56.020
at least, officially written down more in books than there
2121
01:53:56.039 --> 01:53:59.510
were in the Northern Appalachians. And I find that kind
2122
01:53:59.550 --> 01:53:59.970
of sad.
2123
01:54:00.430 --> 01:54:02.989
And I attribute that to people like, uh, you may
2124
01:54:03.010 --> 01:54:04.310
have never heard of him, but there was a guy
2125
01:54:04.369 --> 01:54:07.710
in Knoxville that wrote in the paper named Bert Vincent
2126
01:54:07.770 --> 01:54:10.029
and he had a column on Sundays. I think it
2127
01:54:10.050 --> 01:54:13.170
was like just walking about or something like that. He
2128
01:54:13.210 --> 01:54:15.590
had two volumes out of, uh, there was a little
2129
01:54:15.609 --> 01:54:17.130
bit of everything in there, but there was a lot
2130
01:54:17.170 --> 01:54:20.369
of hate and booger and witch tales from the Smokies
2131
01:54:20.409 --> 01:54:23.590
in that area. And, uh, had both those books growing up,
2132
01:54:23.649 --> 01:54:26.760
had them around the house, an autographed copy of one
2133
01:54:26.800 --> 01:54:29.590
of them that my mom had picked up somewhere. But, um,
2134
01:54:30.079 --> 01:54:32.279
it was just a part of that, the oral tradition
2135
01:54:32.319 --> 01:54:35.140
and the written tradition. You had people like him, uh,
2136
01:54:35.180 --> 01:54:38.170
look for him on Amazon. Anybody that's interesting, Bert Vincent,
2137
01:54:39.270 --> 01:54:43.989
columnist for the Knoxville News Sentinel. And, um, another person
2138
01:54:44.010 --> 01:54:47.250
that kind of carried that on was, uh, and I
2139
01:54:47.289 --> 01:54:51.729
can't remember the guy's name now, Sam, Sam, somebody, uh,
2140
01:54:51.979 --> 01:54:53.779
Handful of Thumbs and Two Left Feet is the name
2141
01:54:53.819 --> 01:55:00.319
of his book. But he wrote that column later. And
2142
01:55:00.399 --> 01:55:02.090
Bird had picked it up from, I think, Carson Brewer
2143
01:55:02.149 --> 01:55:05.050
or somebody like that. But that opened a lot of tales.
2144
01:55:05.090 --> 01:55:08.550
Of course, the Foxfire books. I think it's Foxfire Volume
2145
01:55:08.550 --> 01:55:10.619
2 that has the Hanes and witches and stuff in it.
2146
01:55:11.329 --> 01:55:11.869
That was always.
2147
01:55:11.890 --> 01:55:13.970
It's on my shelf right now. I'm looking right at it.
2148
01:55:13.989 --> 01:55:18.289
Yeah, love that one. And, of course, Charles Edwin Price.
2149
01:55:19.310 --> 01:55:21.369
was from the South, and he wrote a lot about
2150
01:55:21.630 --> 01:55:26.090
little towns in particular. Haunted Jonesboro, Haunted Knoxville, Haunted Nashville.
2151
01:55:27.310 --> 01:55:29.909
His canon of works, I think he's passed on now.
2152
01:55:30.560 --> 01:55:35.500
But anybody that's interested in Southern hauntings, his books will
2153
01:55:35.520 --> 01:55:39.399
serve you well. And then, of course, was it 13
2154
01:55:39.399 --> 01:55:43.100
Alabama Ghosts and Jeffrey? I can't remember the lady's name,
2155
01:55:43.119 --> 01:55:47.989
but she did Alabama, Georgia, I think Tennessee, too. And
2156
01:55:48.050 --> 01:55:50.630
Jeffrey was her resident ghost, but she wrote a lot
2157
01:55:50.649 --> 01:55:54.670
of those tales out. And then, of course, in historic Jonesboro, Tennessee,
2158
01:55:54.689 --> 01:55:56.989
you have to say that historic part. They're proud of that.
2159
01:55:57.670 --> 01:56:01.520
They have the International Storytelling Convention in October. I've been
2160
01:56:01.560 --> 01:56:05.539
there in the audience, but I've never been there as
2161
01:56:05.560 --> 01:56:08.960
a participant. But that is some fun to hear those
2162
01:56:09.020 --> 01:56:12.819
stories come to life from good storytellers. I bet.
2163
01:56:13.159 --> 01:56:15.359
That sounds like a great place to go.
2164
01:56:16.350 --> 01:56:19.060
Now, we talked about the Bell Witch Cave. We're almost
2165
01:56:19.119 --> 01:56:21.939
out of time here. But have you ever visited the
2166
01:56:21.979 --> 01:56:23.720
Bell Witch Cave or the grounds there?
2167
01:56:24.500 --> 01:56:27.100
Yes, yes. I've been down to Adams, Tennessee a couple times.
2168
01:56:27.579 --> 01:56:29.199
The first time that I went down, I actually wasn't
2169
01:56:29.239 --> 01:56:31.300
able to go to the cave because there had been
2170
01:56:31.319 --> 01:56:33.699
torrential downpours and the cave floods.
2171
01:56:33.760 --> 01:56:36.380
The Red River floods like you wouldn't believe right there.
2172
01:56:36.970 --> 01:56:39.670
But yeah, Chris Kirby, the owner, her husband owned that.
2173
01:56:39.689 --> 01:56:42.409
She's a friend of mine. And the first time that
2174
01:56:42.489 --> 01:56:46.449
I went... There was nobody there. We got like a
2175
01:56:46.489 --> 01:56:51.569
personal tour. She's got photographs. Back then, this was in
2176
01:56:51.590 --> 01:56:54.409
the early 90s, she had a couple of photo albums
2177
01:56:54.449 --> 01:56:56.069
full of pictures that she had taken and full of
2178
01:56:56.130 --> 01:56:59.359
pictures that people had sent back of anomalous stuff down there.
2179
01:57:00.319 --> 01:57:03.060
I had my first digital camera, an old Kodak, had
2180
01:57:03.100 --> 01:57:05.779
like half a megapixel, I think. But I got some
2181
01:57:05.800 --> 01:57:10.140
weird pictures there too. But if anybody has an interest
2182
01:57:10.180 --> 01:57:13.479
in that at all, it's worth checking out, certainly. Absolutely.
2183
01:57:13.520 --> 01:57:16.909
Absolutely. Yeah. When I was there and actually got to
2184
01:57:16.930 --> 01:57:18.750
go to the cave, it was a similar situation. I
2185
01:57:19.210 --> 01:57:21.449
had to wait for more people to show up for
2186
01:57:21.470 --> 01:57:24.010
them to do a tour. So I sat with Chris
2187
01:57:24.050 --> 01:57:25.970
and talked with her for probably an hour or two
2188
01:57:26.010 --> 01:57:28.689
hours before enough people showed up and they're like, okay,
2189
01:57:28.729 --> 01:57:29.729
now we can go into the cave.
2190
01:57:31.369 --> 01:57:32.949
She had a couple of little books that she sold.
2191
01:57:33.010 --> 01:57:35.489
I bought those. And then it's before she had to
2192
01:57:35.529 --> 01:57:37.850
gift shop. And we sat out there, there was like
2193
01:57:37.890 --> 01:57:40.069
a gazebo or a picnic table or something up there.
2194
01:57:40.449 --> 01:57:42.449
And she showed me all of these pictures and, And
2195
01:57:42.470 --> 01:57:44.850
then talked about all the stuff that people have taken
2196
01:57:45.050 --> 01:57:45.789
that's come back.
2197
01:57:46.609 --> 01:57:49.529
Yeah. Yep, exactly. That's where you get into the cursed objects,
2198
01:57:49.569 --> 01:57:52.500
the rocks and things. And even now, now what she
2199
01:57:52.520 --> 01:57:55.520
does is she'll get porcelain dolls and paint them up
2200
01:57:55.539 --> 01:57:58.840
to look like zombies or something grotesque and sell them.
2201
01:57:59.460 --> 01:58:01.529
And they're getting sent back now as well.
2202
01:58:01.529 --> 01:58:04.159
That way she can just sell them again. Kidding. Yeah,
2203
01:58:04.159 --> 01:58:05.640
that's exactly what she does.
2204
01:58:05.640 --> 01:58:07.119
She said a lot of times.
2205
01:58:06.800 --> 01:58:09.300
When they're not there and they lock the gate, she
2206
01:58:09.300 --> 01:58:11.279
said you come back and there would be a rock
2207
01:58:11.340 --> 01:58:13.039
or something with a note tied to it. Say, I
2208
01:58:13.079 --> 01:58:14.960
took this out of the cave. I'm sorry, please put
2209
01:58:15.000 --> 01:58:16.939
it back. It was near this place or that place.
2210
01:58:17.909 --> 01:58:19.649
And I get it. There's a lot of places like that.
2211
01:58:19.689 --> 01:58:23.489
Petrified Forest, other caves, Mammoth Cave. There's places where you
2212
01:58:23.550 --> 01:58:26.170
just don't take stuff because you might take home more
2213
01:58:26.210 --> 01:58:29.439
than you bargained with. The Troll Bridge outside of Portland, Oregon.
2214
01:58:30.010 --> 01:58:32.909
I've heard some weird stories about people that took troll
2215
01:58:32.930 --> 01:58:34.850
dolls from there. You're supposed to leave them, not take them.
2216
01:58:35.609 --> 01:58:35.710
Yeah.
2217
01:58:35.750 --> 01:58:38.930
But anyway, Heather, we're almost out of time for this episode.
2218
01:58:38.949 --> 01:58:41.220
Thank you for joining us here on Everything Out There.
2219
01:58:41.800 --> 01:58:43.420
Any parting words for the audience?
2220
01:58:44.939 --> 01:58:50.180
Well, thanks for having me. I've loved being here. Parting words. Man,
2221
01:58:50.199 --> 01:58:52.439
just stay weird. Stay weird.
2222
01:58:53.100 --> 01:58:56.060
Better weird than plastic. I love it. All right. And
2223
01:58:56.100 --> 01:58:58.039
I'll leave links to the show notes where you can
2224
01:58:58.060 --> 01:59:01.479
find Small Town Monsters. And again, Heather, thank you for
2225
01:59:01.520 --> 01:59:05.069
joining us. Go ahead and sign off here. Once again,
2226
01:59:05.090 --> 01:59:07.350
you've been listening to everything out there on the Clyde
2227
01:59:07.369 --> 01:59:11.000
Lewis Ground Zero Radio Network. I'm Steve Stockton. I'll see
2228
01:59:11.020 --> 01:59:12.939
you a little further on down the trail. Tell your
2229
01:59:12.979 --> 01:59:14.739
animals I said hi. Good night, everybody.
1
00:00:00.220 --> 00:00:04.780
You're listening to Everything Out There with your host, Steve Stockton.
2
00:00:16.289 --> 00:00:19.910
Hello, friends. Hello, hello. Once again, and welcome to Everything
3
00:00:19.969 --> 00:00:22.649
Out There on the Clyde Lewis Ground Zero Radio Network.
4
00:00:22.750 --> 00:00:26.570
I'm your host, Steve Stockton. Welcome in. Tonight, joining me
5
00:00:26.609 --> 00:00:28.989
on the phone, a friend of mine for many years,
6
00:00:29.910 --> 00:00:32.469
You might know her from her work on Caravan of
7
00:00:32.570 --> 00:00:36.159
Lore or some of the scripts she wrote and narrated
8
00:00:36.200 --> 00:00:38.859
for me over on my 13 Past Midnight YouTube channel.
9
00:00:39.439 --> 00:00:42.719
Or you might know her from her work with Seth
10
00:00:42.740 --> 00:00:48.140
Breedlove's Small Town Monsters. And she's also a classics professor
11
00:00:48.320 --> 00:00:52.649
at Kent State University. Welcome, Heather Mosier. Heather, come on in.
12
00:00:53.729 --> 00:00:56.210
Hi, thanks for having me. I'm so excited to be here.
13
00:00:56.670 --> 00:00:58.649
Yeah, nice to have you here on the phone with
14
00:00:58.710 --> 00:01:01.240
us tonight. So what's going on in your world? I
15
00:01:01.259 --> 00:01:03.380
haven't seen you in probably been over a year. You
16
00:01:04.219 --> 00:01:06.829
and Seth showed up in New Mexico in the Four
17
00:01:06.890 --> 00:01:09.730
Corners area and filmed me for a documentary we're working on.
18
00:01:10.310 --> 00:01:13.870
What's happened since that transpired? Yeah, yeah.
19
00:01:13.909 --> 00:01:15.450
We showed up and we kidnapped you for a little
20
00:01:15.489 --> 00:01:20.230
bit so that you could tell us some stories. Well,
21
00:01:20.269 --> 00:01:23.780
let's see. That does seem like a long time ago.
22
00:01:23.799 --> 00:01:29.810
We have been. filming other films, filming other movies, and
23
00:01:30.209 --> 00:01:37.430
the one that you're in, American Werewolves 2, which it
24
00:01:37.450 --> 00:01:38.879
should have been out by now, but then we had
25
00:01:38.920 --> 00:01:40.780
an issue with our distributor, so it's kind of been
26
00:01:40.819 --> 00:01:43.260
put on the back burner. It should be coming out, though,
27
00:01:44.040 --> 00:01:47.680
very soon. I don't think I'm allowed to say yet,
28
00:01:47.760 --> 00:01:50.730
but we have an official date now, so it'll be
29
00:01:50.769 --> 00:01:51.430
within the month.
30
00:01:53.290 --> 00:01:55.969
Um i'm looking forward to that i've been expecting my
31
00:01:56.030 --> 00:01:58.219
copy in the mail just any time i'm anxious to
32
00:01:58.250 --> 00:02:00.640
see how it turned out but it was great uh
33
00:02:00.680 --> 00:02:03.120
meeting seth and the crew and getting to meet you
34
00:02:03.180 --> 00:02:04.379
in person finally.
35
00:02:05.120 --> 00:02:08.400
Yes yes it was great to finally meet you um
36
00:02:09.039 --> 00:02:11.139
let's see we went to british columbia and we filmed
37
00:02:11.180 --> 00:02:14.900
there for um on the trail of bigfoot uh the
38
00:02:15.000 --> 00:02:18.129
origins So we've done that right now we're in the
39
00:02:18.169 --> 00:02:19.990
midst of, and this is about the only thing that
40
00:02:20.270 --> 00:02:22.270
has my brain occupied at the moment. We're in the
41
00:02:22.289 --> 00:02:26.590
midst of our Kickstarter and that takes up all of
42
00:02:26.629 --> 00:02:31.189
February for us. Um, so that's the biggest thing right now,
43
00:02:31.229 --> 00:02:34.810
trying to get our Kickstarter, uh, funded as much as possible.
44
00:02:34.939 --> 00:02:36.580
And that'll help get us through the year.
45
00:02:37.860 --> 00:02:40.639
Yeah. And I saw the notification on Facebook. I'll put
46
00:02:40.680 --> 00:02:43.860
a link to that in the show notes for the
47
00:02:43.879 --> 00:02:48.009
Kickstarter there. And, uh, everybody go pledge your support to
48
00:02:48.050 --> 00:02:50.770
that it's a great franchise they've got going there how
49
00:02:50.810 --> 00:02:52.770
many are they up to now with the small town
50
00:02:52.810 --> 00:02:53.930
monsters series.
51
00:02:55.090 --> 00:02:58.039
Uh like how many how many movies you mean yes
52
00:02:58.060 --> 00:03:01.460
oh my goodness well i don't know it's got to
53
00:03:01.500 --> 00:03:03.419
be close to 20 at this point if not more
54
00:03:03.439 --> 00:03:05.469
um i don't have the number off the top of
55
00:03:05.490 --> 00:03:07.590
my head but it's it's a lot.
56
00:03:07.370 --> 00:03:10.469
Yeah i know it's out there and then this the
57
00:03:11.129 --> 00:03:13.530
A great, great canon of work there. I've only seen
58
00:03:13.610 --> 00:03:16.409
a few of them, but they're all just incredible movies
59
00:03:16.500 --> 00:03:20.639
and really looking forward to see the one that I'm in. Now,
60
00:03:20.659 --> 00:03:23.159
is that going to be premiering like at some film
61
00:03:23.199 --> 00:03:26.340
festivals and things like that or some conferences, paranormal conferences,
62
00:03:26.460 --> 00:03:27.699
or are you allowed to say?
63
00:03:28.539 --> 00:03:33.520
So American Werewolves 2 did actually premiere last fall in
64
00:03:33.659 --> 00:03:37.240
Kentucky to an audience and it was very well received
65
00:03:37.259 --> 00:03:40.460
and But as of right now, it's not scheduled for
66
00:03:40.719 --> 00:03:41.520
any premieres now.
67
00:03:42.919 --> 00:03:45.120
Okay. That's still good to hear, though. At least it's
68
00:03:45.199 --> 00:03:47.780
out there and it did get good reception. And hopefully
69
00:03:47.819 --> 00:03:49.759
nobody laughed at my part too hard.
70
00:03:50.120 --> 00:03:53.490
Absolutely not. And our Kickstarter backers, they've had access to it.
71
00:03:53.500 --> 00:03:56.400
And it's gotten good reviews from them as well. So
72
00:03:56.439 --> 00:03:58.740
that's the other bonus of Kickstarter backing is that you
73
00:03:58.759 --> 00:04:01.599
get access to our films. Even if we have issues
74
00:04:01.620 --> 00:04:04.759
with the distributor, you get access to the films early.
75
00:04:05.139 --> 00:04:08.080
Yeah. And I've worked some in film and getting that coverage.
76
00:04:08.680 --> 00:04:11.659
right away to see how it plays. That's just invaluable.
77
00:04:13.199 --> 00:04:14.979
You can kind of think of those people as your
78
00:04:15.000 --> 00:04:16.220
test audience, if you will.
79
00:04:17.180 --> 00:04:19.379
Yep. Definitely.
80
00:04:20.939 --> 00:04:23.699
So let's just start at the beginning here. Like I said,
81
00:04:23.740 --> 00:04:27.600
you wrote and narrated some things for me over on
82
00:04:27.779 --> 00:04:31.060
my 13 past midnight channel, which is still on hiatus.
83
00:04:31.120 --> 00:04:33.839
I'm going to be bringing it back, but I'm back
84
00:04:33.959 --> 00:04:36.620
on Missing Persons and Mysteries. I now own that channel.
85
00:04:37.160 --> 00:04:39.300
So that's getting a lot of my time and attention.
86
00:04:40.560 --> 00:04:45.759
Just under 275,000 subscribers over there. And then in the interim,
87
00:04:45.939 --> 00:04:50.139
I started among the missing, and I've gotten, I think, 104K,
88
00:04:50.459 --> 00:04:53.060
105K over there now. So I've been a busy guy.
89
00:04:53.079 --> 00:04:56.120
I just published my 20th book this last year, if
90
00:04:56.139 --> 00:04:58.579
you count the one that Cisco and I co-wrote. And
91
00:04:58.610 --> 00:05:00.850
I had a couple other co-writers in there on some
92
00:05:00.870 --> 00:05:05.810
of these recent ones. But yeah, no moss growing under
93
00:05:05.850 --> 00:05:06.949
this Rolling Stone, so.
94
00:05:08.500 --> 00:05:09.680
And that's good. That's good.
95
00:05:10.420 --> 00:05:14.019
Well, thank you. But what garnered your interest in the paranormal?
96
00:05:14.040 --> 00:05:16.000
Did it start like so many of us in early
97
00:05:16.040 --> 00:05:18.480
childhood or were you a late bloomer when it came
98
00:05:18.540 --> 00:05:21.420
to all things dark and scary or what's your personal story?
99
00:05:22.660 --> 00:05:26.779
Oh, it definitely started whenever I was young. It's very,
100
00:05:26.959 --> 00:05:30.839
very much tied to what was on TV at a
101
00:05:30.860 --> 00:05:33.620
very young age. Unsolved Mysteries was something that was on
102
00:05:33.639 --> 00:05:38.629
the TV every week. And that garnered my attention. almost
103
00:05:38.670 --> 00:05:42.939
like a morbid curiosity to a certain extent. I remember
104
00:05:43.060 --> 00:05:47.680
very vividly an episode about the Yeti and being afraid
105
00:05:47.720 --> 00:05:52.160
of the Yeti as a result of that. Also spontaneous
106
00:05:52.199 --> 00:05:55.120
human combustion was one of the episodes. And I had
107
00:05:55.139 --> 00:05:57.589
this unrealistic fear that that was going to be how
108
00:05:57.629 --> 00:06:00.050
I'd meet my demise at some point in my life.
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Oh yeah. That one always scared me too. I remember
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reading about that when I was a kid, probably in the,
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one of those readers digest tales of the paranormal books,
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or maybe even the time life library had the picture
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of the lady there that I think her leg was
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all that was left. Uh, a burn mark on the chair.
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And that used to scare the daylights out of me.
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I'm like, what if I spontaneously combust that and quicksand
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now I'm a little bit older than you are maybe
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a lot older than you are. But, uh, if you
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watch TV in the late sixties and the early seventies,
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particularly Westerns, quicksand was a thing. And it got a
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lot of people. And, uh, Almost got some of my heroes,
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Daniel Boone and his son Israel and Davy Crockett and Gunsmoke.
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People are always getting in quicksand. But yeah, SHC, Spontaneous
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Human Combustion, Bigfoot. I used to actually go out looking
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for Bigfoot when I was a kid. I don't know
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what I would have done if I'd found one.
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That's a great question. What would you?
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I've wondered about that. These people that go out looking
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for it and they play the mating calls and stuff. Well,
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what if that works and all of a sudden an
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amorous Bigfoot comes charging out of the woods? Do you run?
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Do you stay and take one for the team? Or
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what would happen in that situation? I've often wondered about that.
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Yeah, things to think about for sure. Another thing, you
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mentioned quicksand. I do remember also being extremely afraid of
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the Bermuda Triangle, even though I have yet to go
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over the Bermuda Triangle. I was positive that if I did,
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I would disappear. That was another thing that was very
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common when I was younger.
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Charles Burlitt's book about that was out in that era anyway.
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And yeah, that one frightened me. I've yet to fly
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over it as well. I've been in the edge of it,
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but that's about as close as I want to get.
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But in some of my research and things that I've done,
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there are a lot of triangles out there. They are
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all over the place. Here in New England, where I'm at,
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you've got the Bennington Triangle. Then you've got the Nevada triangle.
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There's an Alaskan triangle. There's one in Northern California. What
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is it with triangles? Maybe you can enlighten us from
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your work as a professor there and then look back
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into history or maybe even prehistory. Is there something mystical
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about the triangle?
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Well, it's one of the strongest shapes, right? We've got
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pyramids and We're always fascinated by those and how they
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were even built. But with these triangle areas, it seems
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to be that you've got a conglomeration of sightings in
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one area. And I think just human nature, we're like, okay,
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where are the outer limits of this? Let's make three points.
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And oh, it's a triangle. It also sounds a lot
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better than like the Bridgewater Rhombus or something.
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Yeah, or the Alaskan dodecahedron or something like that. Yeah. Right.
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There's something about those, those being able to find three points.
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And I know it's always easy to connect the dots
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in reverse, but it does appear to be within a boundary.
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And again, there is a mysticism with the triangle, you know,
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from a mathematical perspective and then from an alchemical and
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metaphysical perspective, but there's a lot of those pesky triangles
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out there and I hope I don't get caught in
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any of them.
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Well, and that's the, One of the things over at
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Small Town Monsters that we've started in the last, at
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this point, it's been a couple of years now. We
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started a publishing company and one of our early books
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was the Texas Dogman Triangle by Aaron Deese. And that
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the whole idea of the Dogman Triangle came about after
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Aaron had accumulated all of these stories through historical and
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modern day times and realize, oh, wait, they're pretty concentrated
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in an area. And look, lo and behold, there's three points.
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Let's make that the Texas Dog Man Triangle.
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I find that fascinating. I haven't. heard anything about this.
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I'll definitely have to read that book. Can you elaborate
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on that a little bit without giving too much of
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the book away?
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So the Texas dog man triangle, the points are roughly
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around Dallas, Fort Worth, San Antonio and Houston. So it's
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a pretty decent size triangle, but Then again, Texas is massive,
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so it really isn't that big on the general scale
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of things. But yeah, there are stories back from even
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the 1800s of these creatures that are bipedal, canine, half human,
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half canine creatures that have been aggressive. They're very rarely,
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I mean, you just don't hear stories necessarily about them
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being something that you want. to encounter. They're not, I
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don't know, they don't seem as friendly as maybe your
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local Bigfoot. But there's sightings that are accumulated in that
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area between those three points that are historical and modern day.
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And even after Aaron put the book out, which I'm
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sure you can attest to this from being an author
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as well, once you get the book out there, then
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you get more sightings. You get more people coming in
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that have read the book and they're like, actually, I
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live in that area as well, and I had an encounter,
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so his database of sightings has grown since the book
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has come out as well, just kind of adding to, yes,
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this is a definitive area where there seems to be
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a concentration of dogman sightings.
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Yeah, that's been my experience, too. People read the book,
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and then they want to add something to it. Every
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single one of my books, and a couple of them
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have been updated to new editions, but like Strange Things
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in the Woods. That's actually two volumes combined. That was
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originally Strange Things in the Woods and More Strange Things
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in the Woods, my publisher combined them, but I've got
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enough for a second volume of those, and that's just
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Things in the Woods. I mean, there's Strange Things in
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the Water, Strange Things in the Sky, Strange Things on
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the Farm, Strange Things in the City. Strange is a
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relative term there, but People seem to be more aware
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of it. I don't know. Maybe it's just me since
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I've published those books and gone on a lot of
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shows and have my own shows and stuff now. But
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there seems to be just a higher interest in it.
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There was a lot in the 70s, a particular 1973.
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That was a big UFO year. There was a huge
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UFO flap in 73. And even my family jumped on
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that bandwagon. My brother lived on the highest point around
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where we lived. And a lot of like a Friday
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night or Saturday night, we would go over there, get
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lawn chairs, sit out in his yard and watch the skies.
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And we saw anomalous stuff, stuff that made no sense,
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stuff that wasn't airplanes or jets or anything like that.
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But then it all just kind of died down. Those
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things tend to come in waves like that flaps, they
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call them. And I think that's true of anything cryptid
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or paranormal. There seems to be certain times when it's
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more active or more prevalent. And I hear from people
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now that study that side of it, that the veil
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is thin. And that's why, I mean, it's always, it's
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thin around a certain time of year in the pagan
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and Celtic beliefs. But now I've heard people say that
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it's getting thinner all the time, all the time, year round.
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And that's why all this is ramping up. Maybe that's so,
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or maybe it's just with the advent of the internet
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and being able to communicate worldwide with somebody i mean
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you're sitting in ohio i'm sitting in new england but
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we're talking like we're right here next to each other
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um i think it's just it has indeed made the
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world a smaller place and more people are willing to
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share because back like when the strange things in the
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woods a lot of those stories were from uh friends
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of my family and uh people that that my parents
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knew and things like that uh 99 of the people
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in that book have passed on now And they were
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reticent to tell those stories, but to kind of go on,
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I mean, sometimes it was like they had to get
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a log chain and drag it out of them. And
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the one old gentleman, Otto Darrow, he's been passed for
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several years, but he would tell me things when he
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found out I wasn't going to laugh at him or
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make fun of him that he hadn't even shared with
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his wife. She'd be sitting there while we were talking.
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She's like, you never told me that. And he'd, you know,
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have some glib response. Well, you never asked or something
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like that. But I think people are more open to
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talking about it now. And has that been your experience
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with the Small Town Monsters? Is it easier? The longer
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you do it, is it easier to find witnesses to
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come forward and talk about what they see or in
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some cases didn't see?
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Yeah, I think it definitely has helped that we've, I mean,
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Small Town Monsters has been around since Minerva Monster came
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out in 2015. And just the fact that we've been
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around for a while has And people can actually look
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at our body of work and see that we're not
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going to make fun of them has been a boon
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for us as far as getting people to feel comfortable
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talking to us. As a researcher for small town monsters,
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what I've noticed is there are certain cryptids where it's
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a lot easier to get people to talk because it
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is more accepted. Bigfoot, it's a lot easier to get
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people to come forward and tell you that they had
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an encounter with Bigfoot because it just seems to be
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more socially accepted right now. Dog Man is a little iffy,
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but when you get into other things, sometimes UFOs can
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be a little trickier, although that is starting to shift
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as well with everything that's happening in our culture on
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the news. The government's coming forward and saying, yes, there's
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been UFOs or UAPs, rather. That's making it a little easier,
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but I have stories from people that had odd encounters
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of things that don't necessarily, um, fall into the, the
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pop culture look at the, at the strange, if that
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makes sense. And they're more reticent to come forward with anything. So, um,
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and then as far as the movies that we've done,
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it was difficult to get people to American werewolves too,
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that you're in that's titled the skinwalkers. It was very
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difficult to get people to come forward and talk about
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any type of skinwalker encounter. Um, which is not surprising, but, uh,
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I don't think that that stigma is necessarily going away.
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Even if we have shows out there like Skinwalker Ranch, um,
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that is just a cultural thing that isn't going to change.
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Yeah, I agree. And just because of it, they put
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it on TV and put it where it can be
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consumed by a mass audience. I think that raises the
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awareness and gets more people interested in people. Um, I
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spoke to a guy not too long ago that, uh, he, uh,
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he's finding Bigfoot or something like that, that he'd caught
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an episode of and had no interest in it prior
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to that. And then suddenly he's hooked and devouring everything
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he can find about the subject, reading books, watching other shows,
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actually going out in the field and doing some research.
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So I think sometimes it's just that little, little spark that, uh,
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that excites these people like, Hey, I didn't know this
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was out here. And there's all this, uh, work and, and,
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you know, media that you can consume. And, uh, I
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don't know if people like that will stay in it,
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but at least it's, it's nice to have an interest
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in it for a while. Even if you go on
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to something as I'm an old, my personal tastes and interests,
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even in the paranormal change, uh, while I was big
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into UFOs as a child, I kind of grew out
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of that, went more into Bigfoot and then from that
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into other cryptids. And, uh, that's kind of what got
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me into the missing people stuff too. And now I'm
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kind of circled back around. I'm coming of another interest
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in UFOs, but I like the classic cases. I've got
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a new YouTube channel. It's not very big yet. It's
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only about 3,500 subscribers called From Beyond. And we're looking
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at some of the classic UFO cases. Recently, first episode,
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we covered the Betty and Barney Hill alleged abduction from
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here in New England. The week prior to that, we
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looked at Rendlesham Forest, which has been called the UK's Roswell.
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And there's some good stuff out there back during that era,
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you know, before all the abduction tomfoolery and not discounting
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anybody's beliefs or theories or anything there. I spoke at
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a UFO conference and met a lot of abductees that
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they believe what they say. And that gives me, you know,
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the belief in their testimony, I think. But I like
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it when it was, you know, everybody that was men
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from Mars or moon men or, little green men and
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their flying saucers and things before it got beyond that.
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So you mentioned UFO or UAP. What do you think
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the reason is for the name change this far into
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the game? Why would they suddenly just start calling it
343
00:19:10.900 --> 00:19:15.069
a UAP when we've been used to UFOs for decades?
344
00:19:15.089 --> 00:19:17.349
Well, that is.
345
00:19:20.859 --> 00:19:26.359
That is a great question. I'm not sure other than
346
00:19:26.380 --> 00:19:30.089
they're trying to make a broader term perhaps to cover
347
00:19:30.140 --> 00:19:34.650
more things. Maybe UFOs just seemed outdated for them or
348
00:19:35.250 --> 00:19:37.690
maybe we're actually behind the times and they don't actually
349
00:19:37.849 --> 00:19:40.250
use that anymore. Maybe they're just throwing us a bone
350
00:19:40.289 --> 00:19:43.190
and saying, yeah, we called it UAPs while you guys
351
00:19:43.230 --> 00:19:44.509
are busy calling it UFOs.
352
00:19:45.029 --> 00:19:45.569
Could be that.
353
00:19:45.609 --> 00:19:47.349
Now we have another term. Yeah.
354
00:19:47.490 --> 00:19:49.609
And I had a commenter on one of my live
355
00:19:49.650 --> 00:19:54.420
streams this week on From Beyond. He said, it's to
356
00:19:54.480 --> 00:19:57.460
make it harder to search for things in a FOIA request,
357
00:19:57.519 --> 00:20:00.900
a Freedom of Information Act. I hadn't even thought about that.
358
00:20:00.920 --> 00:20:04.670
I hadn't either. If they're calling it a UAP now,
359
00:20:04.730 --> 00:20:09.109
but you're looking for UFO information, people that just come
360
00:20:09.170 --> 00:20:11.730
along and get into it now won't maybe not even
361
00:20:11.789 --> 00:20:16.990
realize that it UFO was the, the preferred nomenclature before
362
00:20:17.029 --> 00:20:20.170
it went to UAP. So it could be a little,
363
00:20:20.190 --> 00:20:23.859
that's a good point. Classic mixed direction there. Yeah.
364
00:20:24.319 --> 00:20:25.680
I would not put it past anybody.
365
00:20:27.500 --> 00:20:30.680
And a full disclosure. Do you think that it's coming
366
00:20:30.720 --> 00:20:32.779
or do you think we'll ever find out for sure?
367
00:20:32.980 --> 00:20:37.400
Or is it just too immersed, too hidden? from view
368
00:20:37.480 --> 00:20:40.319
that to ever be revealed, because that would destroy a
369
00:20:41.420 --> 00:20:45.069
lot of, uh, paradigms, if you will, if we did
370
00:20:45.089 --> 00:20:47.829
get full disclosure in the way that people expect, what's
371
00:20:47.849 --> 00:20:48.670
your thoughts on that?
372
00:20:49.750 --> 00:20:52.369
Um, I think that that is definitely a concern that
373
00:20:52.549 --> 00:20:57.859
it would cause issues, especially in the religious community, but, um,
374
00:20:58.880 --> 00:21:02.000
I feel like at some point it'll just be, um,
375
00:21:04.500 --> 00:21:06.960
I think on down the line, not anytime, probably not
376
00:21:06.980 --> 00:21:11.440
in my lifetime, but I think that it'll just, it'll
377
00:21:11.480 --> 00:21:15.470
be something that they can't deny anymore. And we will
378
00:21:15.650 --> 00:21:19.170
all know, we may not know the extent of anything or,
379
00:21:21.089 --> 00:21:22.690
but I don't think that we're going to be able
380
00:21:22.730 --> 00:21:26.289
to live forever with this, with blinders on that there's
381
00:21:26.329 --> 00:21:30.609
nothing else in the universe except us. So I think
382
00:21:30.630 --> 00:21:33.119
it'll come out eventually. I think it kind of, it'll,
383
00:21:34.039 --> 00:21:37.859
it'll probably be a situation where the government's hand is forced,
384
00:21:38.579 --> 00:21:42.559
so to speak. That would be my guess.
385
00:21:46.160 --> 00:21:48.680
Yeah. And I, I agree with that. And I don't
386
00:21:48.720 --> 00:21:51.259
know at this point what it would take to convince everybody.
387
00:21:51.299 --> 00:21:54.289
I mean, there's been people that have been with people
388
00:21:54.329 --> 00:21:57.269
that have had these firsthand experiences and they didn't believe
389
00:21:57.329 --> 00:22:02.299
what they saw. So again, I don't know if one
390
00:22:02.420 --> 00:22:05.109
landed on the White House lawn and came out and
391
00:22:05.140 --> 00:22:10.230
shook hands with people. Oh, that's that's AI generated at CGI.
392
00:22:10.289 --> 00:22:13.990
It's a deep fake or Project Blue Beam. Are you
393
00:22:14.009 --> 00:22:14.930
familiar with that?
394
00:22:15.910 --> 00:22:16.490
I am not.
395
00:22:16.990 --> 00:22:22.339
It's supposedly Project Blue Beam. One word. It's a type
396
00:22:22.440 --> 00:22:24.640
of I don't know if it's an apparatus or how
397
00:22:24.660 --> 00:22:27.599
it works, but it's a militarized thing where they can
398
00:22:27.640 --> 00:22:30.089
project a hologram that you can't tell the difference in
399
00:22:30.119 --> 00:22:33.799
the real thing. And according to which conspiracy theory you
400
00:22:33.819 --> 00:22:36.930
subscribe to, they can beam it straight into your head.
401
00:22:36.990 --> 00:22:39.910
It doesn't even have to be a physical manifestation. They
402
00:22:39.930 --> 00:22:43.230
can cause you to see it in your brain, I guess.
403
00:22:43.269 --> 00:22:46.230
I'm not sure all the ins and outs of it. But,
404
00:22:47.049 --> 00:22:50.460
you know, used to, they say, believe, what was it,
405
00:22:50.500 --> 00:22:52.599
a quarter of what you read and half of what
406
00:22:52.619 --> 00:22:54.819
you see or something. Now we can't believe anything that
407
00:22:54.859 --> 00:22:59.319
we see or hear with all the... AI, I know
408
00:22:59.339 --> 00:23:01.920
a lot of people are scared of it, and it
409
00:23:01.980 --> 00:23:04.339
can cause some problems and things, but I see it
410
00:23:04.400 --> 00:23:07.339
as a tool. It can be beneficial. It's like anything
411
00:23:07.400 --> 00:23:11.680
like that. When my dad was small, people were scared
412
00:23:11.700 --> 00:23:15.890
of electricity. He said he's heard preachers in the pulpit
413
00:23:15.970 --> 00:23:19.609
talk about electricity. You're fooling with something you shouldn't fool with,
414
00:23:19.630 --> 00:23:23.109
and it's going to destroy the world, but yet it didn't,
415
00:23:23.289 --> 00:23:27.170
and it changed everything. I heard the same about nuclear
416
00:23:27.230 --> 00:23:29.869
power and things like that. And then that came to,
417
00:23:30.109 --> 00:23:35.079
you know, what's next? Somebody's going to be afraid of everything.
418
00:23:35.150 --> 00:23:37.420
And there are people that are averse to any kind
419
00:23:37.460 --> 00:23:40.579
of change. And I get that. I don't like, especially
420
00:23:40.619 --> 00:23:43.920
swift and sudden change, but I'm open to new ideas.
421
00:23:44.000 --> 00:23:47.099
But what do you think about CERN and what's going
422
00:23:47.160 --> 00:23:49.349
on over there? Do you think they're tampering with something
423
00:23:49.390 --> 00:23:52.829
they shouldn't ought to, as the saying goes, or what's
424
00:23:52.869 --> 00:23:56.710
your belief on that? Is it changing things like the
425
00:23:56.730 --> 00:23:59.269
Mandela effect. I've heard people attribute that to CERN. What's
426
00:23:59.289 --> 00:24:00.089
your thoughts on that?
427
00:24:00.809 --> 00:24:04.069
That's funny. I didn't realize that people were attributing that
428
00:24:04.089 --> 00:24:08.440
to CERN. No, I think that they're, I don't think
429
00:24:08.460 --> 00:24:10.460
that they're messing with something that they shouldn't mess with
430
00:24:11.460 --> 00:24:17.859
over at CERN. There's, I don't know. This also comes
431
00:24:17.900 --> 00:24:21.500
from more of a personal perspective as well, because there
432
00:24:21.539 --> 00:24:23.509
was someone that went to my school that worked over
433
00:24:23.549 --> 00:24:26.769
at CERN for a while. Um, and like, I knew
434
00:24:26.809 --> 00:24:29.470
him and he was super nice and kind. And I
435
00:24:29.509 --> 00:24:33.970
would like to think that he would have the sense
436
00:24:34.029 --> 00:24:36.930
to not mess with something that he shouldn't mess with. Um,
437
00:24:37.150 --> 00:24:38.750
and that this is absolutely all in the name of
438
00:24:38.809 --> 00:24:44.369
science and furthering our understanding of the universe. So, um,
439
00:24:44.829 --> 00:24:47.230
that would be my, my thought on it. I don't
440
00:24:49.730 --> 00:24:52.309
how horrible if they started to mess with something.
441
00:24:52.750 --> 00:24:57.200
Yeah. I'll put devil's advocate here, though. What if it's
442
00:24:57.279 --> 00:25:00.559
compartmentalized and people that are good and just are working
443
00:25:00.599 --> 00:25:04.099
on this project and don't exactly know what they're working on? Now,
444
00:25:04.119 --> 00:25:07.660
I draw from personal experience. Both my parents were a
445
00:25:07.720 --> 00:25:12.230
part of the Manhattan Project and they had an idea
446
00:25:12.490 --> 00:25:15.680
of what they were working on, the whole of it.
447
00:25:15.750 --> 00:25:18.289
But still, you know, you had this person doing this
448
00:25:18.309 --> 00:25:21.319
and that person doing that. And the people up above
449
00:25:21.599 --> 00:25:23.799
who were coordinating everything, they knew what they were doing.
450
00:25:23.819 --> 00:25:25.500
That's why part of it was in Oak Ridge and
451
00:25:25.539 --> 00:25:27.720
part of it was in Los Alamos. They wanted to
452
00:25:27.759 --> 00:25:31.359
keep those fishable materials separate until they got ready to
453
00:25:31.640 --> 00:25:36.819
arm everything. But there was a lot of people. There
454
00:25:36.839 --> 00:25:43.180
was Clinton Engineer Works prior to ORNL and the AEC
455
00:25:43.339 --> 00:25:50.220
and other organizations. agencies that worked out there. But again,
456
00:25:50.259 --> 00:25:52.799
they knew they were doing something for the greater good,
457
00:25:52.819 --> 00:25:55.059
but they didn't know exactly what they're doing. So if
458
00:25:55.079 --> 00:25:57.839
that many people, I know Creech at that time didn't
459
00:25:57.880 --> 00:25:59.900
even exist. It wasn't on any maps. It was a
460
00:25:59.940 --> 00:26:04.079
city behind a fence and you had guard shacks at
461
00:26:04.140 --> 00:26:06.640
every entrance into town and you had to show a
462
00:26:06.680 --> 00:26:10.099
badge or you didn't get in there. So, but nobody talked.
463
00:26:10.160 --> 00:26:12.099
I mean, it was again, part of the war effort
464
00:26:12.160 --> 00:26:17.269
and your, your silence was necessary. And people got called
465
00:26:17.349 --> 00:26:21.089
on that. I've heard about people that attended dances inside
466
00:26:21.130 --> 00:26:23.569
the fence and maybe whispered to their date about something
467
00:26:23.589 --> 00:26:25.990
they were working on. And then it was found out
468
00:26:26.029 --> 00:26:29.730
that they had, again, talked a little more than they
469
00:26:29.769 --> 00:26:32.630
should have. And they were chided for that if not
470
00:26:33.029 --> 00:26:36.369
fired or you could be arrested. My dad, he talked
471
00:26:36.430 --> 00:26:38.450
about some of the documents and things that he had
472
00:26:38.470 --> 00:26:41.529
signed even far into retirement. He said there were certain
473
00:26:41.589 --> 00:26:45.029
things that are classified and that are still classified. that
474
00:26:45.049 --> 00:26:48.549
he wouldn't be able to talk about ever unless he
475
00:26:48.890 --> 00:26:51.829
could lose his pension and his insurance and all that stuff.
476
00:26:51.849 --> 00:26:54.390
So those people, but again, they understood they were doing
477
00:26:54.410 --> 00:26:55.559
it for the greater good.
478
00:26:56.460 --> 00:26:59.279
Sure. Or at least that's what they were told.
479
00:26:59.640 --> 00:27:04.799
Yeah, that's what they were told. And I know it's
480
00:27:04.839 --> 00:27:08.359
just astounding. And then another conspiracy theory that that gave
481
00:27:08.380 --> 00:27:12.259
me particular insight into was Project Paperclip. And I've heard
482
00:27:12.299 --> 00:27:14.359
people debunk that and say, oh, that didn't happen. It
483
00:27:14.400 --> 00:27:17.779
doesn't exist. But yet my dad, who was a scientist
484
00:27:17.839 --> 00:27:21.839
at Oak Ridge National Laboratory, he worked right alongside some
485
00:27:21.859 --> 00:27:24.839
of those German scientists that were brought over after the war.
486
00:27:25.759 --> 00:27:29.680
And personal story, I went to school, elementary school with
487
00:27:29.740 --> 00:27:34.440
a kid who was from Germany. And I went home
488
00:27:34.839 --> 00:27:39.000
with him after school one day. And his dad was
489
00:27:39.059 --> 00:27:42.359
a scientist out there as well. spoke fluent German and
490
00:27:42.799 --> 00:27:45.440
the kid my age spoke English. His dad had a
491
00:27:45.460 --> 00:27:49.109
heavy accent. But we were down in the basement. They
492
00:27:49.150 --> 00:27:51.410
had like a rec room. That was the big thing
493
00:27:51.490 --> 00:27:54.910
to have downstairs in the 70s was a family room
494
00:27:54.930 --> 00:27:56.970
or rec room. He's like, come here, I want to
495
00:27:57.009 --> 00:28:00.450
show you something. And I'm like, okay. And he pushes
496
00:28:00.589 --> 00:28:04.470
on the paneled wall back there and it swings open.
497
00:28:04.509 --> 00:28:05.990
And I thought, okay, he's going to show me a
498
00:28:06.039 --> 00:28:09.829
bomb shelter, a lot of houses built there. after the
499
00:28:09.869 --> 00:28:12.009
war had a bomb shelter and because of the Cold
500
00:28:12.049 --> 00:28:15.039
War and all that going on. Right. And I thought, OK,
501
00:28:15.099 --> 00:28:16.660
he's going to show me his bomb shelter. We didn't
502
00:28:16.680 --> 00:28:19.140
have one, but I knew other kids that had a
503
00:28:19.180 --> 00:28:21.579
bomb shelter in their basement. So he opens it up
504
00:28:21.640 --> 00:28:24.480
and he flicks on the light. And here is the
505
00:28:24.740 --> 00:28:28.829
biggest display of German war memorabilia that I have ever
506
00:28:28.910 --> 00:28:33.609
seen before since. And what kind of his glass or
507
00:28:33.650 --> 00:28:37.990
plexiglass case there was a uniform, a very high ranking uniform.
508
00:28:39.130 --> 00:28:42.609
I said, wow, your dad really loves his war memorabilia.
509
00:28:43.089 --> 00:28:45.730
And he said, Steve, you don't understand. He said that
510
00:28:45.809 --> 00:28:50.579
was his uniform. So he had this little shrine to
511
00:28:50.640 --> 00:28:53.980
the fatherland in his basement, yet he was out working
512
00:28:54.259 --> 00:28:58.099
at the British National Laboratory right alongside my dad. So
513
00:28:58.140 --> 00:29:02.930
that project paperclip is not a myth. So again, you
514
00:29:03.029 --> 00:29:05.190
never know. There's a lot of people that keep a
515
00:29:05.230 --> 00:29:06.329
lot of secrets out there.
516
00:29:06.539 --> 00:29:10.279
Yeah, the compartmentalizing thing, I mean, I understand it, but
517
00:29:10.460 --> 00:29:13.460
it's also, it's scary to think that way, to think
518
00:29:13.529 --> 00:29:15.470
about all the things that people may be working on
519
00:29:15.509 --> 00:29:17.710
and not knowing the full extent of it and then
520
00:29:17.829 --> 00:29:22.390
what the actual purpose is behind it on a larger scale.
521
00:29:24.109 --> 00:29:26.970
And then you have places like Area 51, you know,
522
00:29:26.990 --> 00:29:29.859
where there's things going on that, again, everybody there doesn't
523
00:29:29.880 --> 00:29:31.339
know what they're working on, but then you have a
524
00:29:31.380 --> 00:29:34.759
whistleblower like Bob Lazar. What do you think of his testimony?
525
00:29:34.920 --> 00:29:37.190
Do you think that he's On the up and up
526
00:29:37.230 --> 00:29:40.950
or has he just found a way to opportunize all this?
527
00:29:42.619 --> 00:29:47.740
I was actually just watching Bob Lazar last night, watching
528
00:29:47.799 --> 00:29:56.480
his interview with Joe Rogan. I would say that if
529
00:29:56.619 --> 00:29:58.660
he's not being truthful, he's come up with a lot
530
00:29:58.700 --> 00:30:02.339
of A lot of details. That make it extremely believable.
531
00:30:04.460 --> 00:30:09.359
Like I. This is just first. First glance at these things.
532
00:30:09.660 --> 00:30:15.160
I did not detect. Him lying about anything. From that
533
00:30:15.200 --> 00:30:19.779
interview anyway. Because there were just too many. Like I
534
00:30:19.799 --> 00:30:21.869
said too many nuances. That he had in there. He's
535
00:30:21.900 --> 00:30:27.170
either a fantastic storyteller. Or a great liar. Or he's
536
00:30:27.190 --> 00:30:27.710
telling the truth.
537
00:30:29.319 --> 00:30:31.680
That was my takeaway from that, too. He believes what
538
00:30:31.720 --> 00:30:35.309
he's saying or seems to. Right. Yeah. I can say
539
00:30:35.349 --> 00:30:39.609
that of a lot of in the UFO culture things.
540
00:30:39.690 --> 00:30:45.049
I've heard Travis Walton speak and saw him at a
541
00:30:45.069 --> 00:30:48.200
conference and listened to him speak. He believes what he says.
542
00:30:48.279 --> 00:30:50.140
He believes that that's what's happened to either that or
543
00:30:50.180 --> 00:30:53.099
he's the greatest actor that we've ever seen or the
544
00:30:53.140 --> 00:30:56.200
most accomplished liar ever. And there's a lot of people
545
00:30:56.259 --> 00:30:58.960
like that. Even Whitley Strieber, I've heard him speak before.
546
00:30:59.319 --> 00:31:02.019
I don't think he does the conferences anymore. At least
547
00:31:02.059 --> 00:31:05.029
he doesn't do them in Las Vegas because the casinos
548
00:31:05.150 --> 00:31:08.230
don't enforce a no smoking policy or they didn't when
549
00:31:08.309 --> 00:31:11.450
I was there. But I believe that he believes what
550
00:31:11.470 --> 00:31:13.589
he saw. Yeah, he made a fortune off books and
551
00:31:13.609 --> 00:31:16.450
movies and things, but I think he is telling the
552
00:31:16.490 --> 00:31:19.430
truth as he knows it about those experiences he has
553
00:31:19.519 --> 00:31:21.480
with starting with communion and beyond.
554
00:31:21.500 --> 00:31:25.950
I think that's a good way to put it. that
555
00:31:25.990 --> 00:31:28.190
they it's the truth is they believe it.
556
00:31:29.690 --> 00:31:32.289
Yeah and that's like with my own experiences I've had
557
00:31:32.329 --> 00:31:35.750
people try to debunk stuff that I've seen like you
558
00:31:35.769 --> 00:31:37.859
know you didn't see that or that didn't happen or
559
00:31:38.190 --> 00:31:40.579
how could you remember it in that much detail well
560
00:31:40.619 --> 00:31:43.119
that's just the way my brain operates I can remember
561
00:31:43.180 --> 00:31:46.140
things just an infinite detail I've got a near photographic
562
00:31:46.200 --> 00:31:48.539
memory so that's one way I can remember all these
563
00:31:48.559 --> 00:31:51.759
details plus when you have one of those encounters or
564
00:31:51.819 --> 00:31:55.089
experiences it just I don't know, it crystallizes in the mind.
565
00:31:55.130 --> 00:31:59.829
I can go back to any of my several, especially
566
00:31:59.849 --> 00:32:02.170
the really, really scary ones and things, and I can
567
00:32:02.210 --> 00:32:05.549
remember every little detail of everything around me, what I
568
00:32:05.630 --> 00:32:07.869
had for breakfast that day, what was going on, what
569
00:32:07.910 --> 00:32:10.720
I did afterwards. I don't know how I could not
570
00:32:10.759 --> 00:32:13.240
remember all that. And just the fact to me that
571
00:32:13.299 --> 00:32:16.559
I can recall it in that greater detail just shows
572
00:32:16.579 --> 00:32:20.619
to me that it's real. In my mind, I was there.
573
00:32:20.700 --> 00:32:22.460
I know what happened. I know what I saw or
574
00:32:22.500 --> 00:32:26.109
didn't see. or felt or heard and nobody's ever going
575
00:32:26.130 --> 00:32:28.390
to convince me otherwise. Right.
576
00:32:28.730 --> 00:32:31.880
Yeah, exactly. I mean, you were there, you had the experience.
577
00:32:32.650 --> 00:32:32.880
Yeah.
578
00:32:33.019 --> 00:32:34.380
So your memory says you did.
579
00:32:34.500 --> 00:32:36.500
I don't care if anybody believes it or not. You're
580
00:32:36.519 --> 00:32:39.259
like Ripley's believe it or not. This is Stockton's believe
581
00:32:39.279 --> 00:32:43.660
it or don't. I don't, I don't care. That might
582
00:32:43.680 --> 00:32:48.440
be a name for a podcast. I like it. Or don't.
583
00:32:49.859 --> 00:32:52.670
But again, you know, I'm not here to, to, to
584
00:32:52.710 --> 00:32:55.210
win any friends or influence any people. I'm just sharing
585
00:32:55.289 --> 00:32:58.250
what's happened to me and hopefully make it a little
586
00:32:58.329 --> 00:33:01.710
easier for other people to share what's happened with them.
587
00:33:02.009 --> 00:33:03.490
And that was one thing I wanted to ask you
588
00:33:04.210 --> 00:33:06.349
with small town monsters. Have you ever had a showing
589
00:33:06.390 --> 00:33:09.509
of those like in a retirement home or an old
590
00:33:09.589 --> 00:33:14.539
folks home or anything like that? No, but that's, that's
591
00:33:14.579 --> 00:33:16.930
what I do with my books. I like to go
592
00:33:17.000 --> 00:33:20.279
and do a reading and especially with strange things in
593
00:33:20.299 --> 00:33:23.000
the woods or even my strange world. And a lot
594
00:33:23.019 --> 00:33:24.960
of times it'll just be like somebody like, oh, what's
595
00:33:25.000 --> 00:33:27.779
this crap? There's no bingo tonight. And they'll sit there
596
00:33:27.799 --> 00:33:30.000
and they'll do their knitting or their crochet or whatever.
597
00:33:30.019 --> 00:33:32.650
And then they just get up and leave. But usually
598
00:33:33.130 --> 00:33:35.829
there'll be a couple of people hang around after the
599
00:33:35.869 --> 00:33:38.250
reading is over. And I know what's coming up. And
600
00:33:38.390 --> 00:33:41.170
usually it'll be an older gentleman. And he'll sidle up
601
00:33:41.210 --> 00:33:44.170
to me and say, that story you had about the barn.
602
00:33:44.190 --> 00:33:46.180
He said, let me tell you what happened to you
603
00:33:46.400 --> 00:33:48.839
when I, what happened, sorry. Let me tell you what
604
00:33:48.880 --> 00:33:51.430
happened to me when I was a kid. And then
605
00:33:51.539 --> 00:33:53.359
the story just comes out. And maybe, you know, this
606
00:33:53.380 --> 00:33:57.440
guy's been sitting on it for decades. And yet, by
607
00:33:57.480 --> 00:34:00.059
hearing me tell my stories or tell other people's stories
608
00:34:00.119 --> 00:34:02.160
in the case of Strange Things in the Woods, it
609
00:34:02.200 --> 00:34:05.339
frees him up. And otherwise, that story might not have
610
00:34:05.440 --> 00:34:07.569
ever seen the light of day. Maybe he didn't tell
611
00:34:07.589 --> 00:34:08.889
it to anybody. He could have taken it to the
612
00:34:08.929 --> 00:34:12.230
grave with him. And that's part of the commission that
613
00:34:12.289 --> 00:34:14.989
I'm doing here. I'm getting these stories out there so
614
00:34:15.030 --> 00:34:18.309
that they'll live on longer than the people that told them,
615
00:34:18.469 --> 00:34:21.500
like in Strange Things in the Woods. Or longer than me.
616
00:34:21.559 --> 00:34:24.179
I'm hoping, you know, I'm building a legacy here. And
617
00:34:24.199 --> 00:34:28.179
I've encouraged other people to write. Cisco Murdoch, Mark Anthony Wyatt.
618
00:34:29.000 --> 00:34:31.400
There's a lot of stuff here that, you know, I've
619
00:34:31.420 --> 00:34:33.800
kind of been like a Johnny Appleseed to some of this.
620
00:34:33.880 --> 00:34:36.940
But I wonder what kind of response you would get
621
00:34:37.019 --> 00:34:39.860
if you showed those in that type of setting. If
622
00:34:39.920 --> 00:34:42.940
it would scare the pants off those old people. Or
623
00:34:42.980 --> 00:34:45.159
if there would be some that would stick around and
624
00:34:45.539 --> 00:34:48.219
share their stories. You might want to give that a thought.
625
00:34:48.440 --> 00:34:50.159
Mention that to Seth and see what he thinks.
626
00:34:50.969 --> 00:34:54.110
Yeah, that would be really interesting, especially because we are
627
00:34:54.269 --> 00:34:57.610
so close to where like Minerva Monster. I mean, I
628
00:34:57.650 --> 00:35:01.210
live in Minerva, so we're not far at all from
629
00:35:01.250 --> 00:35:03.349
where that happened. So to show that and then see
630
00:35:03.389 --> 00:35:04.550
what their reaction would be.
631
00:35:04.570 --> 00:35:06.489
Yeah. And you could do it in the library. You
632
00:35:06.510 --> 00:35:12.050
could do it in schools. That's another thing. Another undermined segment.
633
00:35:12.389 --> 00:35:15.469
Like I said, old people or senior citizens are one
634
00:35:15.510 --> 00:35:18.039
of our greatest wealths as far as folklore and stories
635
00:35:18.079 --> 00:35:21.780
and things. But another thing. audience that i've found is
636
00:35:21.980 --> 00:35:25.519
the teenagers i go to a skateboard park or anywhere
637
00:35:25.579 --> 00:35:28.760
where teenagers congregate and say hey if if you were
638
00:35:28.780 --> 00:35:30.550
going out on a date and you wanted to go
639
00:35:30.590 --> 00:35:34.869
parking someplace spooky where's the crybaby bridge where's the white
640
00:35:34.929 --> 00:35:37.829
lady walk or the lady in white or whatever and
641
00:35:38.070 --> 00:35:40.530
those they know all those places too i did when
642
00:35:40.630 --> 00:35:44.170
i was a kid right that's true the adults didn't
643
00:35:44.210 --> 00:35:47.190
pass it around like kids did and i think that's
644
00:35:47.250 --> 00:35:50.719
the way a lot of these urban legends and in
645
00:35:50.760 --> 00:35:53.920
the south particularly in the Appalachians there's there's a crybaby
646
00:35:53.960 --> 00:35:57.019
bridge in every little community and I don't know if
647
00:35:57.099 --> 00:36:00.110
it's like a version of the telephone game where somebody
648
00:36:00.119 --> 00:36:02.469
heard it and then just retold it but they added
649
00:36:02.530 --> 00:36:05.250
in a location that their audience would know or if
650
00:36:05.289 --> 00:36:09.829
there's really I mean Texas there's a crybaby bridge there
651
00:36:09.849 --> 00:36:14.050
then the same with the tunnel where the or there
652
00:36:14.090 --> 00:36:15.949
it's a railroad track, I think, where the kids put
653
00:36:15.969 --> 00:36:18.349
their hands on the car and push you over. Oh, right. Yes.
654
00:36:18.590 --> 00:36:21.909
There's a railroad tunnel in the Kingsport, Tennessee. And it's
655
00:36:21.929 --> 00:36:25.469
like that Sensabaugh tunnel. There's just the same stories in
656
00:36:25.530 --> 00:36:29.090
different locations. So it makes me think somewhere, sometime that
657
00:36:29.150 --> 00:36:32.449
really happened and it just got passed around. Another example,
658
00:36:33.030 --> 00:36:35.829
my mom's from East Tennessee. She grew up or was
659
00:36:35.869 --> 00:36:38.630
born in the Cades Cove area, the Smokies, like my grandmother.
660
00:36:39.389 --> 00:36:41.409
And then my dad's from Middle Tennessee over on the
661
00:36:41.449 --> 00:36:44.349
Cumberland Plateau. But a lot of the stories that she
662
00:36:44.389 --> 00:36:46.070
would tell that she heard as a child, he had
663
00:36:46.130 --> 00:36:48.630
heard them as a child as well, even though they
664
00:36:48.670 --> 00:36:52.849
were six years apart, but in a local setting, you know,
665
00:36:52.989 --> 00:36:56.849
hours apart by car. So again, and this was before
666
00:36:56.909 --> 00:36:59.130
the days of, you know, and I guess they could
667
00:36:59.150 --> 00:37:00.849
have heard it on the radio or something, but this
668
00:37:00.889 --> 00:37:03.989
was stories that they told around the wood stove in
669
00:37:04.010 --> 00:37:07.489
the wintertime or in front of the fireplace. But to me,
670
00:37:07.530 --> 00:37:09.789
that's fascinating the way these stories get passed around and
671
00:37:09.809 --> 00:37:11.900
they change. It is, it's like a version of, The
672
00:37:11.920 --> 00:37:13.500
telephone game, did you ever play that when you were
673
00:37:13.519 --> 00:37:13.880
in school?
674
00:37:14.599 --> 00:37:18.920
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Things are vastly different sometimes by the
675
00:37:19.980 --> 00:37:20.500
end of the game.
676
00:37:20.519 --> 00:37:25.900
Yeah, well, you mentioned being there and or near Minerva. Now,
677
00:37:25.920 --> 00:37:29.469
there's something about, you can agree or choose to disagree
678
00:37:29.510 --> 00:37:32.889
with me here, there's something about Ohio in general that
679
00:37:32.929 --> 00:37:36.389
has a strangeness to it, that there's little pockets of
680
00:37:36.449 --> 00:37:38.710
weirdness there, and I mean that in the kindest and
681
00:37:38.750 --> 00:37:39.769
best possible way.
682
00:37:40.309 --> 00:37:42.800
Of that's good.
683
00:37:44.960 --> 00:37:46.840
But um yeah i don't know if you know the
684
00:37:46.980 --> 00:37:51.750
the brothers from the believe all podcast um chris jeremy
685
00:37:51.789 --> 00:37:55.949
and john they're out of ohio and they are among
686
00:37:56.030 --> 00:38:00.010
my three favorite ohioans and they've investigated a lot of
687
00:38:00.050 --> 00:38:03.099
stuff there and realized that there's just something strange.
688
00:38:02.719 --> 00:38:06.320
There yeah yeah i agree i think we've got something
689
00:38:06.360 --> 00:38:10.500
here between the We're in the foothills of the Appalachians.
690
00:38:10.719 --> 00:38:13.610
And then we've got the rivers all around here. I
691
00:38:13.650 --> 00:38:15.690
think when you get the confluence of all of those
692
00:38:15.750 --> 00:38:20.010
things together, plus the history, just the history in the area,
693
00:38:20.030 --> 00:38:23.929
the tribes that were once here, the mountain builders that
694
00:38:23.969 --> 00:38:28.150
were here. Yeah, we've got a lot going on in
695
00:38:28.190 --> 00:38:29.329
this area. That's for sure.
696
00:38:29.349 --> 00:38:33.159
Yeah. And then, of course, you have stuff around the
697
00:38:33.179 --> 00:38:36.039
West Virginia area and the Kentucky areas that goes over
698
00:38:36.199 --> 00:38:43.469
into Ohio. Mothman, Point Pleasant things, and then how that
699
00:38:43.510 --> 00:38:45.670
all connects. But yeah, when I was on their show,
700
00:38:45.690 --> 00:38:47.869
they interviewed me. That's one of my favorite interviews that
701
00:38:47.889 --> 00:38:50.389
I've ever done, if not their favorite. I said to
702
00:38:50.429 --> 00:38:53.409
them that I was sharing some of my Ohio experiences
703
00:38:53.489 --> 00:38:55.860
as a child. And I said, you know, any state
704
00:38:55.889 --> 00:38:59.739
that gave us Dean Martin, Larry Flint, and the Cramps
705
00:39:00.460 --> 00:39:03.260
is a great state. And they laughed at that. You know,
706
00:39:03.360 --> 00:39:05.559
we've had astronauts and presidents and stuff, but.
707
00:39:09.190 --> 00:39:09.449
Yep.
708
00:39:09.849 --> 00:39:12.329
Excuse me, had to clear my throat. But again, that's
709
00:39:12.670 --> 00:39:16.110
just divergent things that I could think of that make
710
00:39:16.170 --> 00:39:19.750
it strange. It's not like it's not your normal state
711
00:39:20.090 --> 00:39:21.969
if there is a normal, but there's just there's an
712
00:39:22.110 --> 00:39:25.409
extra weirdness there that I can appreciate. And it sounds
713
00:39:25.429 --> 00:39:26.199
like you can, too.
714
00:39:26.920 --> 00:39:28.820
Absolutely. Yeah, I'm glad to be here.
715
00:39:30.030 --> 00:39:33.639
Now, uh, Minerva monster, you mentioned that, uh, for those
716
00:39:33.699 --> 00:39:36.219
of listening that might not have heard of that, can
717
00:39:36.239 --> 00:39:38.519
you give us a little background on what the Minerva
718
00:39:38.559 --> 00:39:40.300
monster is? Yeah.
719
00:39:40.360 --> 00:39:43.360
So it's a Bigfoot creature that a Bigfoot creature that
720
00:39:43.380 --> 00:39:44.659
was seen in 1978 in Minerva, Ohio. Um, and, uh,
721
00:39:50.429 --> 00:39:53.769
he made his appearance with the, and why did their
722
00:39:53.809 --> 00:40:00.539
name just escape my, escape my brain? Um, Oh, for
723
00:40:00.579 --> 00:40:04.539
goodness sakes, he made his appearance in Minerva, um, with
724
00:40:04.599 --> 00:40:09.739
a family and they called the local sheriff's department. And
725
00:40:09.780 --> 00:40:11.920
of course people came out and looked and pretty soon
726
00:40:11.940 --> 00:40:15.119
it got in the newspapers. And then without fail, people
727
00:40:15.139 --> 00:40:16.780
were showing up from all over the place to try
728
00:40:16.800 --> 00:40:22.110
to hunt this monster. Um, And, uh, yeah, that was,
729
00:40:22.550 --> 00:40:25.210
I mean, the family faced a decent amount of ridicule
730
00:40:25.230 --> 00:40:29.449
and it wasn't until we had the documentary come out
731
00:40:29.510 --> 00:40:32.320
that some of them actually got a little more, um,
732
00:40:34.719 --> 00:40:37.760
let's see, how do you say like a little more acknowledgement,
733
00:40:38.320 --> 00:40:41.239
I guess things were put, put to peace a little
734
00:40:41.260 --> 00:40:44.650
bit better. Um, when the documentary came out, like, oh, okay. Uh,
735
00:40:45.610 --> 00:40:47.550
I guess maybe that did happen. You guys weren't just
736
00:40:47.610 --> 00:40:50.610
making stuff up. at the time, which why anybody would
737
00:40:50.650 --> 00:40:53.750
make that up. I don't know why anybody would want
738
00:40:53.769 --> 00:40:58.139
that kind of attention, especially then, but that was what happened.
739
00:40:58.159 --> 00:41:00.519
It was in the seventies and there were a rash
740
00:41:00.559 --> 00:41:06.019
of sightings. So it was the Caton family. That's right.
741
00:41:06.039 --> 00:41:10.039
The Caton family. I knew I'd come to me eventually. Yeah.
742
00:41:10.980 --> 00:41:14.150
And I enjoy those stories like they're kind of a one-off.
743
00:41:14.489 --> 00:41:17.210
I mean, I don't know necessarily that that is or not, but,
744
00:41:17.789 --> 00:41:19.989
The things where it just happened over a short period
745
00:41:20.010 --> 00:41:23.409
of time and maybe a handful of people, like here
746
00:41:23.590 --> 00:41:25.940
in New England, in Massachusetts, you have the Dover Demon,
747
00:41:26.420 --> 00:41:30.500
which was basically spotted over two nights in, I think
748
00:41:30.760 --> 00:41:35.780
it was 1977, 78. And then it was just gone
749
00:41:36.000 --> 00:41:39.400
and nobody ever saw anything again. Although now looking back,
750
00:41:39.440 --> 00:41:42.750
there's people that climbed something similar that had been seen
751
00:41:43.349 --> 00:41:46.670
before and since. But the story that I'm familiar with
752
00:41:47.190 --> 00:41:49.329
It just happened. And I love that sort of thing.
753
00:41:49.710 --> 00:41:51.360
I love to go to those places. I'm more of
754
00:41:51.389 --> 00:41:54.739
a legend tripper than I am an investigator. I like
755
00:41:54.760 --> 00:41:56.599
to just go and, if you will, bask in the
756
00:41:56.699 --> 00:41:58.579
ambiance and say, you know, I'm in Dover. This is
757
00:41:58.619 --> 00:42:01.579
where this happened. I have an interesting story about that
758
00:42:01.639 --> 00:42:05.719
back in the 80s. I'd gone to visit a friend
759
00:42:05.760 --> 00:42:09.469
that was going to NYU. And one weekend they said, hey,
760
00:42:09.489 --> 00:42:11.239
we're going to go to this house party. Go with us.
761
00:42:11.690 --> 00:42:13.849
And it was in Massachusetts. It was a good drive.
762
00:42:14.590 --> 00:42:17.440
And ended up we were in Dover. We went to
763
00:42:17.460 --> 00:42:21.300
these people's house out in the suburbs and, uh, and
764
00:42:21.320 --> 00:42:23.699
they're like, so, so Steve, what do you think of Dover?
765
00:42:24.159 --> 00:42:26.099
And I'm like, well, it's, it's different, you know, I'm
766
00:42:26.440 --> 00:42:29.219
Tennessean and it was kind of lost ball and highways
767
00:42:29.260 --> 00:42:31.659
in New York. And even more so at that time
768
00:42:31.820 --> 00:42:34.550
in new England. And I said, Oh, I think it's great.
769
00:42:34.610 --> 00:42:37.190
I said, uh, I've heard about the Dover Damon. They're
770
00:42:37.210 --> 00:42:39.789
like the Dover Damon. And they start yelling for this guy.
771
00:42:39.809 --> 00:42:42.949
They're like, Bill, Bill, come here, come here. And this guy,
772
00:42:42.989 --> 00:42:45.900
and then there was two guys named Bill, one, william
773
00:42:46.039 --> 00:42:48.139
and the other was named bill i don't remember which
774
00:42:48.239 --> 00:42:50.639
one exactly that i met but he was at this
775
00:42:50.679 --> 00:42:53.530
house party in dover and he came out and he
776
00:42:53.730 --> 00:42:55.929
just he seemed kind of embarrassed or kind of humbled
777
00:42:55.949 --> 00:42:57.929
because his friends are making a big deal but i
778
00:42:58.449 --> 00:43:01.409
spoke with one of the witnesses about a year or
779
00:43:01.469 --> 00:43:05.329
two after it happened and again he believed what he
780
00:43:05.389 --> 00:43:08.389
saw sure and i believe it was the one that
781
00:43:08.489 --> 00:43:11.480
drew the initial pictures of and stuff again there was
782
00:43:11.519 --> 00:43:15.590
a bill and a william they were eyewitnesses but don't know, can't,
783
00:43:15.610 --> 00:43:17.449
you know, lost in the midst of time. I was
784
00:43:17.510 --> 00:43:19.889
in college at the time. And, uh, a lot of
785
00:43:19.909 --> 00:43:21.530
that is, uh, in a haze.
786
00:43:23.329 --> 00:43:24.409
I understand. Yeah.
787
00:43:24.449 --> 00:43:25.929
That, um, years after the.
788
00:43:25.909 --> 00:43:29.300
Fact, if you were to come to Minerva now, um,
789
00:43:30.030 --> 00:43:31.900
and you would go past the Caton's house, they still
790
00:43:31.940 --> 00:43:34.059
live in the same house. They they've embraced it. Now
791
00:43:34.099 --> 00:43:37.980
they have a Bigfoot statue outside of their home. Um, yeah,
792
00:43:38.000 --> 00:43:39.039
they'll talk to you about it now.
793
00:43:40.099 --> 00:43:43.199
And I talked about that, uh, It was on this
794
00:43:43.260 --> 00:43:46.739
show or I do a blog called Around the Campfire.
795
00:43:47.159 --> 00:43:48.780
I might have talked about it over there, how a
796
00:43:48.820 --> 00:43:52.989
lot of times communities have learned to embrace these cryptids
797
00:43:53.050 --> 00:43:57.789
or these strange occurrences. And they turn it into something
798
00:43:57.829 --> 00:44:00.469
that's good for the local economy. They sell souvenirs. They
799
00:44:00.489 --> 00:44:04.230
have a festival and they get people talking about it. Like, well,
800
00:44:04.250 --> 00:44:09.389
they have the Mothman Festival and then the Flatwoods Monster.
801
00:44:09.409 --> 00:44:11.909
You know, that's a big deal. I think what better
802
00:44:11.969 --> 00:44:15.469
way to share this than to make it a community-wide thing.
803
00:44:15.489 --> 00:44:18.269
And yeah, it's kind of kitschy with the souvenirs and
804
00:44:18.289 --> 00:44:20.110
some of that, but it's fun and it gets an
805
00:44:20.170 --> 00:44:23.030
interest up. I mean, kids will always remember, you know,
806
00:44:23.050 --> 00:44:25.070
when I was a kid, they took me to the
807
00:44:25.090 --> 00:44:27.329
Mothman Festival, you know, and we saw this and we
808
00:44:27.369 --> 00:44:30.530
saw that. And I think that's a great way to
809
00:44:30.639 --> 00:44:34.599
continue interest in all things weird and spooky.
810
00:44:35.400 --> 00:44:37.059
Oh, I agree. I think it's one of the smartest
811
00:44:37.079 --> 00:44:41.340
things that a community could do, especially right now. It
812
00:44:41.380 --> 00:44:46.300
seems that pop culture is wanting more of these stories.
813
00:44:46.679 --> 00:44:52.440
We're wanting to hear about more monsters and these festivals
814
00:44:52.519 --> 00:44:56.159
are just, they're doing well. So you're not only preserving
815
00:44:56.199 --> 00:44:58.820
the story, you're helping, like you said, helping the local economy.
816
00:44:59.360 --> 00:45:02.059
I don't know what a town like Point Pleasant would
817
00:45:02.079 --> 00:45:03.579
be like without the Mothman Festival.
818
00:45:05.440 --> 00:45:07.940
It's a river town. It'd be a new age mill
819
00:45:07.960 --> 00:45:08.949
town without the mill.
820
00:45:09.159 --> 00:45:09.449
Right.
821
00:45:09.469 --> 00:45:09.639
I see it.
822
00:45:11.159 --> 00:45:14.039
Yeah so um that's one of the best things that
823
00:45:14.059 --> 00:45:15.980
they could have done for their for their town was
824
00:45:16.019 --> 00:45:18.219
to have that mothman festival and have the museum and
825
00:45:18.699 --> 00:45:21.639
really embrace it and not shun it so much um
826
00:45:21.880 --> 00:45:28.239
now there are places where we've been uh louisiana missouri
827
00:45:28.440 --> 00:45:30.500
i believe is the name of the town where momo
828
00:45:30.539 --> 00:45:33.079
was the which was another bigfoot creature in the 70s
829
00:45:33.059 --> 00:45:39.449
1972 i believe um They embraced the story of Momo,
830
00:45:39.690 --> 00:45:42.969
the whole craze of it early on after the initial sightings,
831
00:45:43.409 --> 00:45:45.969
but then have shunned it. So when small town monsters
832
00:45:46.010 --> 00:45:49.530
went over to do the Momo documentary, they were actually
833
00:45:49.570 --> 00:45:52.159
told by some locals, you might as well just leave
834
00:45:52.260 --> 00:45:56.119
because you're not wanted here. But that's another river town
835
00:45:56.179 --> 00:45:57.980
that I think would greatly benefit if they were to
836
00:45:58.039 --> 00:46:00.539
embrace Momo and start to have a festival or something.
837
00:46:02.679 --> 00:46:07.349
Draw people in, bring, bring tourists in. There is something
838
00:46:07.389 --> 00:46:11.829
in cryptid tourism, you know, that and scare tourism, good
839
00:46:11.869 --> 00:46:14.690
ways to bring in money to the local economy and
840
00:46:14.730 --> 00:46:16.969
then to keep the story alive as well. Yeah.
841
00:46:17.590 --> 00:46:19.889
And especially with some of the places now that they're doing,
842
00:46:20.110 --> 00:46:23.519
excuse me, like the overnight ghost hunts and things, those
843
00:46:23.559 --> 00:46:27.059
things would have been demolished or just left to collapse
844
00:46:27.139 --> 00:46:33.119
back into the earth, like Brushy Mountain Penitentiary in Petros, Tennessee.
845
00:46:33.820 --> 00:46:35.679
you know, now you can go there and they've gotten
846
00:46:35.699 --> 00:46:39.010
some wonderful EVPs and experiences and stories out of there.
847
00:46:39.030 --> 00:46:43.949
Some of the true crime locations, the Villisca Axe Murder House,
848
00:46:44.590 --> 00:46:47.570
you know, the Lizzie Borden House, that's a bed and
849
00:46:47.610 --> 00:46:51.550
breakfast now, you know, it's just, it's kind of morbid,
850
00:46:51.639 --> 00:46:56.000
but there's, I think just that's one of our characteristics
851
00:46:56.059 --> 00:46:59.320
as humans. We have an innate curiosity about the darker
852
00:46:59.380 --> 00:47:02.949
side of things and, I'm thankful for that. It's provided
853
00:47:02.989 --> 00:47:05.440
me the opportunity to go to a lot of places
854
00:47:05.519 --> 00:47:07.639
and talk to a lot of people and in front
855
00:47:07.659 --> 00:47:09.400
of a lot of people and, you know, write a
856
00:47:09.420 --> 00:47:14.500
lot of books and things. But yeah, embrace the strange.
857
00:47:15.559 --> 00:47:19.840
Yeah, exactly. And having these places open to the public
858
00:47:19.860 --> 00:47:23.510
allows for the folklore to continue, right? We get to
859
00:47:23.650 --> 00:47:27.530
actually be a part of it morphing and changing like
860
00:47:27.590 --> 00:47:31.070
in real time. something like lizzie borden house or uh
861
00:47:31.389 --> 00:47:34.010
like you mentioned brushy mountain when we're when we're now
862
00:47:34.510 --> 00:47:38.329
it's focused on ghost hunting in the paranormal now that
863
00:47:38.369 --> 00:47:41.130
gets to take on a whole other chapter in the
864
00:47:41.170 --> 00:47:46.460
story of those areas and that's pretty awesome um we
865
00:47:46.480 --> 00:47:49.139
have a place not far from here mansfield reformatory which
866
00:47:49.199 --> 00:47:50.800
is where shawshank redemption was filmed i.
867
00:47:51.539 --> 00:47:54.349
Heard a lot about it have you been there oh Oh, I've.
868
00:47:54.219 --> 00:47:57.219
Been there multiple times. Would you share.
869
00:47:57.039 --> 00:47:58.980
With our audience a little bit of your experiences there?
870
00:47:59.000 --> 00:48:01.360
I've only seen it on TV, but wow.
871
00:48:01.480 --> 00:48:06.539
Sure, sure. Yeah, it's a gorgeous piece of architecture. It
872
00:48:06.960 --> 00:48:09.690
just looks like a castle when you drive up to it.
873
00:48:09.739 --> 00:48:14.289
It's one of my favorite buildings. But the Mansfield Reformatory
874
00:48:14.349 --> 00:48:17.949
is where I had probably the most terrifying encounter that
875
00:48:17.969 --> 00:48:24.210
I've witnessed ever. And it's weird. It's weird to say
876
00:48:24.250 --> 00:48:29.809
terrifying because I wasn't. It's not like a Bigfoot running
877
00:48:29.849 --> 00:48:32.050
out the woods, you know, and trying to eat you
878
00:48:32.110 --> 00:48:33.349
or something. I didn't think that I was going to
879
00:48:33.389 --> 00:48:37.840
die or anything like that. But up in one area
880
00:48:38.119 --> 00:48:42.019
of the reformatory, it's called the West Attic. It is
881
00:48:42.099 --> 00:48:46.960
where once upon a time. OK. When the reformatory was built,
882
00:48:47.039 --> 00:48:49.920
it was built literally as a reformatory, meaning that they
883
00:48:49.960 --> 00:48:52.440
wanted to reform the people that came in there. They
884
00:48:52.480 --> 00:48:54.699
had some issues. They would come in. They'd stay for
885
00:48:54.739 --> 00:48:56.320
a while and then hopefully be able to go back
886
00:48:56.380 --> 00:48:58.639
out to society and join the rest of the world
887
00:48:58.679 --> 00:49:01.019
without an issue. It was never meant to be a
888
00:49:01.059 --> 00:49:05.280
place for like murderers and those who could never go
889
00:49:05.320 --> 00:49:10.460
back to society. But in the early 1900s, the Ohio
890
00:49:10.480 --> 00:49:14.420
State Penitentiary, which is where they had death row, there
891
00:49:14.460 --> 00:49:17.039
was a horrible fire. This was around Columbus, a horrible fire.
892
00:49:17.659 --> 00:49:20.460
And the place burned down. Lots of people died. But
893
00:49:21.679 --> 00:49:24.199
they had inmates then that needed to be rehomed for
894
00:49:24.239 --> 00:49:27.119
a little while until they could rebuild the penitentiary. So
895
00:49:27.159 --> 00:49:29.250
what they did was they shipped some of these hardened
896
00:49:29.269 --> 00:49:32.510
criminals up to Mansfield and they put them in the
897
00:49:32.550 --> 00:49:37.699
West Attic, which is just one massive room. that is
898
00:49:38.119 --> 00:49:42.219
about half the size of the prison itself because it's
899
00:49:42.260 --> 00:49:44.159
all in one wing, the size of one whole wing,
900
00:49:44.739 --> 00:49:46.659
just one big open room. And they shoved all the
901
00:49:46.679 --> 00:49:49.019
guys in there and just kind of left them be
902
00:49:49.739 --> 00:49:54.250
to their own devices. So today, as you can imagine,
903
00:49:54.489 --> 00:49:56.369
from what I understand, the guards didn't even go into
904
00:49:56.389 --> 00:49:58.869
that room. They just kind of let them do their
905
00:49:58.909 --> 00:50:00.570
own thing, but they put them up in the West
906
00:50:00.650 --> 00:50:03.730
attic so that they would be away from the other
907
00:50:04.269 --> 00:50:07.099
criminals that were in the regular cells. They didn't want
908
00:50:07.119 --> 00:50:12.409
the bad influence to infiltrate. So anyway, today, when you
909
00:50:12.429 --> 00:50:15.710
go to Mansfield Reformatory and you're going on a paranormal investigation,
910
00:50:15.769 --> 00:50:17.269
if you go up to the West Attic, what it's
911
00:50:17.369 --> 00:50:21.949
most famously known for is you go and sit. There
912
00:50:21.989 --> 00:50:26.230
are no windows at all in this room. There's just
913
00:50:26.389 --> 00:50:30.199
one door in and out. And you go to the
914
00:50:30.239 --> 00:50:32.159
far end of the room, you sit down and you
915
00:50:32.179 --> 00:50:35.780
just watch. And as you're watching, you'll start to see
916
00:50:36.630 --> 00:50:39.630
like ghost lights start to fly around the room, different colors.
917
00:50:40.670 --> 00:50:44.289
So that in itself is pretty neat. That's one of
918
00:50:44.309 --> 00:50:46.489
my favorite things to see are like the ghost lights
919
00:50:46.510 --> 00:50:50.840
like that. But what happened when we were there, and
920
00:50:51.619 --> 00:50:53.559
this has happened multiple times now that I've been there,
921
00:50:53.579 --> 00:50:55.039
but the first time that it happened, it was the
922
00:50:55.079 --> 00:50:59.380
most stunning, of course. We were sitting there and these
923
00:50:59.440 --> 00:51:01.260
lights showed up and then all of a sudden on
924
00:51:01.340 --> 00:51:05.719
the floor at the far end of the room, this light,
925
00:51:06.670 --> 00:51:10.199
being it's like the opposite of a shadow person like
926
00:51:10.260 --> 00:51:13.739
a shadow person that you see it has the defining
927
00:51:13.760 --> 00:51:16.780
characteristics of a human but it's in shadow except that
928
00:51:16.800 --> 00:51:18.780
was this except it was in light because the room
929
00:51:18.800 --> 00:51:21.559
was completely dark we were sitting there pitch black and
930
00:51:21.599 --> 00:51:27.989
this was illuminated being that was walking back and forth
931
00:51:28.110 --> 00:51:30.269
and it would walk closer to us and it would
932
00:51:30.309 --> 00:51:32.449
get within i have no idea how many feet because
933
00:51:32.469 --> 00:51:34.690
it was dark so it was very difficult to gauge
934
00:51:35.250 --> 00:51:38.300
distance But when it would get fairly close, then it
935
00:51:38.320 --> 00:51:40.500
would drop down on all fours and crawl at you.
936
00:51:41.760 --> 00:51:44.619
And then it would back up, but it would pace
937
00:51:44.659 --> 00:51:48.469
in the room and it was illuminated. It wasn't like,
938
00:51:48.489 --> 00:51:54.070
I mean, it was a self-contained light system, light source,
939
00:51:54.170 --> 00:51:56.469
but it illuminated enough that when it would go by
940
00:51:56.510 --> 00:51:58.659
the wall, you could see the wall start to light up.
941
00:51:59.230 --> 00:52:00.789
So we could tell when it was by the wall.
942
00:52:00.849 --> 00:52:02.550
We could tell when it was by the cross beams
943
00:52:02.590 --> 00:52:04.530
that were in the middle of the room because those
944
00:52:04.570 --> 00:52:10.429
would light up with it. that was terrifying to me
945
00:52:10.690 --> 00:52:15.449
just because that shouldn't exist. Or at least in my
946
00:52:15.489 --> 00:52:18.929
mind shouldn't exist. And so that is the, probably the
947
00:52:19.230 --> 00:52:22.849
most terrified I've ever been on investigation. But after I
948
00:52:22.909 --> 00:52:27.030
had that experience, I was not alone. There were other
949
00:52:27.050 --> 00:52:29.639
people with me. So at least I had other people
950
00:52:29.659 --> 00:52:32.739
to verify what we had all seen. But after I
951
00:52:32.780 --> 00:52:36.429
had that experience, I would go on, different podcasts or
952
00:52:36.469 --> 00:52:39.309
talk to other friends that are in the paranormal community.
953
00:52:39.349 --> 00:52:41.869
And I would try to explain this and no one
954
00:52:41.929 --> 00:52:45.510
seemed to have a similar story. They, they didn't know, like,
955
00:52:45.530 --> 00:52:47.159
I don't know what to call this. I still have
956
00:52:47.219 --> 00:52:52.440
no name for it. And people would talk about it
957
00:52:52.519 --> 00:52:54.860
and want to know if they could see it, if
958
00:52:54.940 --> 00:52:57.840
they went as well. And luckily I was fortunate enough
959
00:52:57.880 --> 00:53:00.280
to go back to Mansfield just a few months ago
960
00:53:00.300 --> 00:53:02.739
and with some friends who had known the story. And
961
00:53:02.760 --> 00:53:04.679
I told them, let's go up to West Attic and
962
00:53:04.719 --> 00:53:07.849
just see if anything happens. You know, I can't guarantee
963
00:53:07.869 --> 00:53:09.650
that you're going to have the same experience as I did.
964
00:53:10.170 --> 00:53:13.869
I don't know. But the night that I saw it,
965
00:53:13.929 --> 00:53:16.269
we were able to see it multiple times throughout the evening.
966
00:53:16.309 --> 00:53:17.929
We would leave and go to other areas of the
967
00:53:17.969 --> 00:53:21.309
prison and then come back and that figure would show
968
00:53:21.369 --> 00:53:24.269
up again. Well, sure enough, a couple months ago when
969
00:53:24.309 --> 00:53:25.969
I was there with a whole new group of people,
970
00:53:26.670 --> 00:53:30.670
they all saw it as well. It manifested again. Um,
971
00:53:30.889 --> 00:53:34.070
they all saw it. They were all equally as nervous
972
00:53:34.130 --> 00:53:36.969
as I was. Um, and they, uh, it would get
973
00:53:37.030 --> 00:53:38.969
close and then a couple of the women would say,
974
00:53:39.010 --> 00:53:42.250
turn the lights on, turn the flashlight on, flashlight on. Um,
975
00:53:42.269 --> 00:53:43.610
and then of course, when the light's on, then you
976
00:53:43.630 --> 00:53:48.840
don't see anything. But, um, that's, uh, that's my scary,
977
00:53:49.059 --> 00:53:52.300
like scariest story from ghost hunting in general, but also
978
00:53:52.320 --> 00:53:54.940
my story from Mansfield. Yeah. Wow.
979
00:53:55.000 --> 00:53:57.039
That's amazing. And if I'm ever in the area, I
980
00:53:57.199 --> 00:53:59.829
definitely want to check it out. Now, did the people
981
00:53:59.889 --> 00:54:03.360
that you were with either time or both times, did
982
00:54:03.400 --> 00:54:05.659
they see pretty much what you saw or was it
983
00:54:05.940 --> 00:54:10.079
different experiences for different people, maybe based on their cognition
984
00:54:10.099 --> 00:54:12.159
or was it a shared experience?
985
00:54:13.059 --> 00:54:15.039
So it's interesting that you asked that the first time
986
00:54:15.059 --> 00:54:18.179
that I was there and the first, the first time
987
00:54:18.219 --> 00:54:20.039
I had that experience, we all seem to see the
988
00:54:20.079 --> 00:54:23.070
same thing because we would sit there and as we're
989
00:54:23.090 --> 00:54:24.610
seeing it, we're like, what are you seeing? What are
990
00:54:24.630 --> 00:54:28.420
you seeing? And asking each other consistently, And everybody's repeating
991
00:54:28.460 --> 00:54:32.300
the same things that they're seeing, the same colored lights,
992
00:54:32.360 --> 00:54:36.849
same action of the figure, and so on. So we
993
00:54:36.889 --> 00:54:39.610
were all seeing the same thing. This last time that
994
00:54:39.650 --> 00:54:44.989
we were there, everybody was seeing it, but it seemed
995
00:54:45.070 --> 00:54:47.630
to be, and this was odd as well, it seemed
996
00:54:47.650 --> 00:54:50.230
to be doing different things depending on who was seeing it.
997
00:54:51.329 --> 00:54:54.030
Like I could see it walk along the wall because
998
00:54:54.070 --> 00:54:56.269
I could see the wall illuminate, but as I'm saying that,
999
00:54:56.980 --> 00:54:58.920
someone else saying it's coming right down the middle of
1000
00:54:58.960 --> 00:55:03.000
the floor or, you know, it's coming to the other
1001
00:55:03.039 --> 00:55:07.059
side of the room. Like they seem to be, or
1002
00:55:07.079 --> 00:55:09.619
the one person said they saw it walk up the wall,
1003
00:55:09.760 --> 00:55:14.000
which I didn't see that at all. But they were
1004
00:55:14.059 --> 00:55:18.820
seeing different things and sometimes different colors than what I
1005
00:55:18.860 --> 00:55:20.579
was seeing, which was odd.
1006
00:55:23.659 --> 00:55:26.099
And I've always found that interesting, but I liken it
1007
00:55:26.179 --> 00:55:29.230
to the, the parable, if you will, or the blind
1008
00:55:29.269 --> 00:55:30.989
man and the elephant, you know, one says, oh, it's
1009
00:55:31.030 --> 00:55:33.190
got a trunk. The other said, no, it's flat and wide.
1010
00:55:33.230 --> 00:55:34.889
The other, no, it doesn't have a trunk. It has
1011
00:55:34.949 --> 00:55:37.949
a tail, you know? So even though they're doing the
1012
00:55:37.989 --> 00:55:40.590
same thing, there's a different takeaway, but yet they all
1013
00:55:40.829 --> 00:55:42.909
experience the same thing. So I think it's kind of
1014
00:55:42.929 --> 00:55:46.969
like that. And again, just a difference of perception and
1015
00:55:47.159 --> 00:55:51.400
maybe it presents itself to different people in different ways.
1016
00:55:52.300 --> 00:55:54.480
Some of the things that I've experienced, I had people
1017
00:55:54.539 --> 00:55:57.980
right along with me that had either a lesser experience
1018
00:55:58.000 --> 00:56:02.639
or no experience at all. I came to a conclusion
1019
00:56:02.679 --> 00:56:05.179
a few years ago because every house I've ever lived
1020
00:56:05.239 --> 00:56:08.719
in was haunted to some degree. And I finally decided
1021
00:56:08.820 --> 00:56:11.500
it's not the houses that are haunted, it's me. These
1022
00:56:11.539 --> 00:56:14.650
things choose to reveal themselves to me for whatever reason.
1023
00:56:15.530 --> 00:56:18.489
I lived in a very, very active house in Las Vegas,
1024
00:56:18.710 --> 00:56:20.750
probably one of the most active places I've ever lived.
1025
00:56:21.429 --> 00:56:23.809
Yet the person I shared the house with that lived
1026
00:56:23.849 --> 00:56:27.760
there before I did, They'd never experienced anything. It was
1027
00:56:27.800 --> 00:56:29.760
like when I got there, then all hell broke loose.
1028
00:56:29.820 --> 00:56:33.829
And then they eventually began to experience things, or at
1029
00:56:33.869 --> 00:56:35.809
least that they'd admit to. I think before, maybe they
1030
00:56:35.849 --> 00:56:38.590
were just in denial of what was going on there.
1031
00:56:38.670 --> 00:56:42.909
But again, I don't know what it is about me.
1032
00:56:43.050 --> 00:56:49.340
Something imbued in me. Is it the negative RH factor,
1033
00:56:49.400 --> 00:56:52.159
green eyes? Is it all that? Am I an alien? Or,
1034
00:56:54.039 --> 00:56:56.019
you know, I subscribe to that theory. I don't think
1035
00:56:56.079 --> 00:56:58.840
I'm from this planet. I'm just visiting here, got stranded
1036
00:56:58.880 --> 00:57:02.260
here or something. There you go. Take me home. As
1037
00:57:02.280 --> 00:57:04.170
long as I can take my wife with me, let's go.
1038
00:57:04.190 --> 00:57:10.530
And she's like me. She's always been an outsider, even
1039
00:57:10.570 --> 00:57:13.969
among the outsiders. She's, I'm not from this planet. I
1040
00:57:13.989 --> 00:57:16.420
would go to family reunions and things and think, I
1041
00:57:16.760 --> 00:57:19.889
can't really be related to these people, can I? And
1042
00:57:20.570 --> 00:57:22.460
I had proof, you know, I had pictures of me
1043
00:57:22.679 --> 00:57:25.019
right after I was born and all that. I used
1044
00:57:25.039 --> 00:57:27.460
to think, you know, am I adopted or something? What
1045
00:57:27.500 --> 00:57:32.429
happened to me? You know, my father and mother are
1046
00:57:32.469 --> 00:57:34.449
on a spaceship somewhere. They're going to come back for
1047
00:57:34.469 --> 00:57:36.829
me one day. If I get abducted, they took me home.
1048
00:57:37.630 --> 00:57:40.750
But no, I was born there. My grandmother witnessed the birth.
1049
00:57:40.829 --> 00:57:43.239
And according to her, my mom was knocked out. That
1050
00:57:43.260 --> 00:57:45.880
was back when they gave women in labor twilight sleep.
1051
00:57:46.539 --> 00:57:48.960
but I was born with a veil over my face,
1052
00:57:49.000 --> 00:57:52.650
what they call it in Southern Appalachia, just the amniotic
1053
00:57:52.690 --> 00:57:54.630
sack was still stretched over my head and had to
1054
00:57:54.690 --> 00:57:58.489
have it cut away, but in my superstitious granny's eyes,
1055
00:57:58.969 --> 00:58:01.590
that marked me as a special child, and out of
1056
00:58:01.650 --> 00:58:04.110
all the grandchildren, and there was a lot, my mom
1057
00:58:04.130 --> 00:58:07.320
came from a big family, her and nine brothers, I
1058
00:58:07.360 --> 00:58:11.599
was the only grandchild born with that condition, and that
1059
00:58:11.639 --> 00:58:14.239
put a bullseye on me as far as granny was concerned,
1060
00:58:14.300 --> 00:58:16.710
and I was the one she had to pass her
1061
00:58:16.789 --> 00:58:20.349
legacy on to. And a lot of stuff like that
1062
00:58:20.369 --> 00:58:22.880
that I've read about, it does tend to skip a generation. Now,
1063
00:58:22.909 --> 00:58:26.460
my mom had some precognition and things that I don't
1064
00:58:26.519 --> 00:58:29.460
claim to have any special abilities or anything. It just
1065
00:58:29.519 --> 00:58:32.059
it is what it is. But I know things sometimes
1066
00:58:32.099 --> 00:58:34.300
that I have no way of knowing, not as strongly
1067
00:58:34.920 --> 00:58:39.480
as my grandmother did. But right. I think to some
1068
00:58:39.539 --> 00:58:42.719
degree you have that and you, you script, you wrote
1069
00:58:42.760 --> 00:58:44.719
for me on 13 past midnight. You talked about your
1070
00:58:44.760 --> 00:58:49.400
children saying things and experiencing things that led you to
1071
00:58:49.420 --> 00:58:52.679
believe that maybe they were reincarnated or had, that had
1072
00:58:52.699 --> 00:58:54.630
the experiences you want to expound on that a little
1073
00:58:54.650 --> 00:58:56.829
bit for our audience. Yeah.
1074
00:58:56.909 --> 00:58:59.269
So this happened, I have three children and this happened
1075
00:58:59.309 --> 00:59:03.210
with two of them. Uh, my two oldest, I remember
1076
00:59:04.429 --> 00:59:10.139
my oldest daughter was probably, three at the time. two
1077
00:59:10.179 --> 00:59:12.539
or three, maybe. Well, probably three because of how much
1078
00:59:12.579 --> 00:59:16.440
she was talking, I guess. But we were on our
1079
00:59:16.489 --> 00:59:20.789
way home from my parents. It was Christmas, I do believe.
1080
00:59:21.030 --> 00:59:24.889
And we were stopped at a stoplight and she looked
1081
00:59:24.929 --> 00:59:29.179
out the window and she looked at the pedestrian signal.
1082
00:59:30.309 --> 00:59:32.429
She asked what that was. I said, well, that's to
1083
00:59:32.469 --> 00:59:34.409
let you know whether you should walk or not, whether
1084
00:59:34.449 --> 00:59:38.010
it's safe to cross the street. She was like, oh, okay. Yeah,
1085
00:59:38.809 --> 00:59:43.699
I remember, but I didn't know what that was. How'd
1086
00:59:43.739 --> 00:59:46.599
she say? I forgot it. I know that now, but
1087
00:59:46.659 --> 00:59:48.500
I had forgotten it then. I'm like, what do you mean?
1088
00:59:48.780 --> 00:59:52.619
She said, well, back before when I was really old,
1089
00:59:54.110 --> 00:59:58.039
I was coming home from getting groceries and And I
1090
00:59:58.079 --> 01:00:00.539
could see my house across the street. So I was
1091
01:00:00.599 --> 01:00:03.900
almost home and I saw that sign and it was
1092
01:00:03.960 --> 01:00:05.639
lit up. So it was lit up to say that
1093
01:00:05.679 --> 01:00:08.969
she shouldn't cross. She's like, but I forgot what it
1094
01:00:09.030 --> 01:00:11.269
said or what that meant. So I crossed the street
1095
01:00:11.329 --> 01:00:14.550
anyway and I got hit by a car. And then
1096
01:00:14.570 --> 01:00:19.489
an ambulance came and picked me up and took me
1097
01:00:19.530 --> 01:00:21.550
to the hospital. And she was like, nobody was at
1098
01:00:21.570 --> 01:00:25.440
the hospital. I was alone and it was cold and
1099
01:00:25.480 --> 01:00:30.210
it was dark. Um, but she, and she's like, I
1100
01:00:30.250 --> 01:00:34.429
was so scared. And, um, I'm like, what do you,
1101
01:00:34.570 --> 01:00:38.309
and as she's explaining this, she's sobbing, she's just crying
1102
01:00:38.449 --> 01:00:41.760
like hysterically. Um, and we're trying to calm her down
1103
01:00:41.820 --> 01:00:43.500
cause we're driving and, you know, a kid in the
1104
01:00:43.519 --> 01:00:46.679
backseat that's freaking out is no fun whenever you're, you're
1105
01:00:46.699 --> 01:00:51.289
trying to drive home in the middle of the night. Um, but, uh,
1106
01:00:52.590 --> 01:00:54.769
she was, she just kept going on. She was very
1107
01:00:54.809 --> 01:00:57.090
hung up on the being cold and dark and alone
1108
01:00:57.150 --> 01:01:00.230
part of it. Um, so we eventually got her calmed
1109
01:01:00.250 --> 01:01:02.289
down and we had asked her some questions after that. And, uh,
1110
01:01:04.269 --> 01:01:09.590
essentially she just had this memory of her death, her being,
1111
01:01:09.789 --> 01:01:11.769
everything was cold and dark until all of a sudden
1112
01:01:11.789 --> 01:01:14.010
there was a light. And then she was here with
1113
01:01:14.110 --> 01:01:19.360
this family is what she said. Um, so she just
1114
01:01:19.400 --> 01:01:22.119
had the story. She said she was very old, when
1115
01:01:22.159 --> 01:01:26.280
it occurred. Um, and I think she gave me a
1116
01:01:26.340 --> 01:01:27.940
name at one point in time, but it was just
1117
01:01:27.960 --> 01:01:30.860
the first name. And, uh, that's not enough for me
1118
01:01:30.900 --> 01:01:33.110
to go on to, to find any records or anything
1119
01:01:33.139 --> 01:01:36.610
like that. But, um, that was her story. And then
1120
01:01:36.630 --> 01:01:43.170
it was two years later, my son, um, who was
1121
01:01:43.250 --> 01:01:47.050
then three as well. He's the middle child. Um, we
1122
01:01:47.090 --> 01:01:49.750
were sitting in the car waiting for his older sister
1123
01:01:49.789 --> 01:01:53.619
to get out of school, actually. And he said, he
1124
01:01:54.480 --> 01:01:56.480
saw me on my phone. I was playing a game
1125
01:01:56.500 --> 01:01:58.940
of some sort. Like, I don't know if it was
1126
01:01:58.980 --> 01:02:03.480
Candy Crush or something like that. And he's like, oh,
1127
01:02:04.360 --> 01:02:07.570
my grandma used to play that. Or my, I think
1128
01:02:07.590 --> 01:02:10.530
he used the word that we never use. Like, I
1129
01:02:10.570 --> 01:02:12.690
think he might've said Meemaw or something like that, that
1130
01:02:13.289 --> 01:02:16.449
we don't use that word. We've never, he's never said
1131
01:02:16.489 --> 01:02:21.699
that before. You know, she used to play games like that.
1132
01:02:22.570 --> 01:02:24.269
And I'm like, what are you talking about? Thinking about
1133
01:02:24.329 --> 01:02:27.889
my mom or my husband's mom. And I'm like, they
1134
01:02:27.909 --> 01:02:30.010
don't play games like this. And he's like, no, no, no.
1135
01:02:30.789 --> 01:02:35.739
My Meemaw from before used to play those games. I'm like, okay,
1136
01:02:35.760 --> 01:02:37.460
well tell me about her. And he's like, well, she
1137
01:02:37.500 --> 01:02:40.940
was really, she was really nice. And I lived with
1138
01:02:40.980 --> 01:02:44.260
her and she was, she was just really great. And
1139
01:02:44.320 --> 01:02:47.800
I loved her very much. He's like, it's really sad.
1140
01:02:47.860 --> 01:02:52.440
What happened? And I'm like, what happened? And he started
1141
01:02:52.460 --> 01:02:57.420
to get emotional as well. And he described living with
1142
01:02:57.559 --> 01:03:01.800
his grandmother, that they'd been a wonderful family. And one
1143
01:03:01.860 --> 01:03:03.860
night or day, I'm not sure if it was night
1144
01:03:03.909 --> 01:03:06.570
or day, but somebody came into the house and had
1145
01:03:06.610 --> 01:03:10.929
attacked his grandmother. And he tried to intervene to save her,
1146
01:03:10.969 --> 01:03:14.110
but wasn't able to do so in time. Therefore he
1147
01:03:15.389 --> 01:03:18.889
then spiraled. And he said he was so upset that
1148
01:03:18.929 --> 01:03:21.699
he wasn't able to save his grandma and that he
1149
01:03:21.739 --> 01:03:24.340
got into a car and he started driving really, really fast.
1150
01:03:25.920 --> 01:03:28.880
And he said, I drove really fast and then I
1151
01:03:28.920 --> 01:03:33.250
lost control and I hit a tree. And he said,
1152
01:03:33.269 --> 01:03:36.550
I even remember what it was like when I hit
1153
01:03:36.570 --> 01:03:41.050
the tree. And he's like describing in gory detail how
1154
01:03:41.150 --> 01:03:43.590
he hit the dashboard and so on. It was horrible.
1155
01:03:45.889 --> 01:03:49.309
He's like, but then It's like I flew out of
1156
01:03:49.349 --> 01:03:53.199
there and I flew right into your belly. And I'm like,
1157
01:03:54.079 --> 01:03:56.019
what do you mean you flew into my belly? He's like, well,
1158
01:03:56.039 --> 01:03:58.260
you were sitting in the living room. He's like, you
1159
01:03:58.300 --> 01:03:59.900
were sitting here or you were sitting there in the
1160
01:03:59.940 --> 01:04:04.139
living room and you were watching TV and eating and
1161
01:04:04.179 --> 01:04:05.920
I flew into your belly. And then I was ready
1162
01:04:05.940 --> 01:04:09.119
to come into this new family. And what was really
1163
01:04:09.300 --> 01:04:15.679
odd is that in real, like an actual time, whenever
1164
01:04:15.869 --> 01:04:17.809
I went into labor with him, I was sitting in
1165
01:04:17.829 --> 01:04:20.030
the living room and I was, I had just gotten food,
1166
01:04:20.110 --> 01:04:23.630
sat down and started eating. And I was watching wrestling, um,
1167
01:04:23.789 --> 01:04:25.809
when the first contraction hit and we had to get
1168
01:04:25.829 --> 01:04:28.659
to the hospital right away. Um, he was a very
1169
01:04:28.760 --> 01:04:33.500
quick labor, but, um, yeah, both of them had those stories.
1170
01:04:33.539 --> 01:04:38.139
Now my third child, she's, she almost seems new to
1171
01:04:38.179 --> 01:04:41.710
the world in a lot of ways. Um, she doesn't,
1172
01:04:42.320 --> 01:04:44.800
I don't know. Everything seems new to her, at least
1173
01:04:44.920 --> 01:04:47.980
from watching her grow. Everything seems new and exciting and
1174
01:04:48.000 --> 01:04:50.980
just not, not the old soul kind of thing that
1175
01:04:51.019 --> 01:04:55.320
you hear about. But yeah, both children had that story
1176
01:04:55.340 --> 01:04:58.469
of what had occurred to them in their previous life
1177
01:04:58.530 --> 01:05:04.570
and that they both, their, their families before. So, and
1178
01:05:04.590 --> 01:05:06.690
they both had a horrible ending too. It wasn't like
1179
01:05:06.710 --> 01:05:08.670
they had this nice story like, yeah, I grew old
1180
01:05:08.710 --> 01:05:10.239
and I just passed away with my family.
1181
01:05:10.260 --> 01:05:14.920
No, But that's still amazing. And to hear that come
1182
01:05:14.980 --> 01:05:16.980
out of the mouth of a three year old that
1183
01:05:17.000 --> 01:05:19.880
doesn't have any concept of any of this. And just
1184
01:05:19.920 --> 01:05:24.400
so matter of factly. And, you know, that's I know
1185
01:05:24.420 --> 01:05:27.340
kids have great imaginations and stuff. But to have a
1186
01:05:27.380 --> 01:05:31.159
whole narrative like that, your entire previous story, that would
1187
01:05:31.300 --> 01:05:34.519
that would take some doing there. I believe there's something
1188
01:05:34.539 --> 01:05:36.860
to all that. I've had other friends that where their
1189
01:05:36.889 --> 01:05:40.360
child would wake up. in the night crying for one
1190
01:05:40.400 --> 01:05:43.639
parent or another or grandparents. Oh, they're, they're right here. No,
1191
01:05:43.699 --> 01:05:46.099
I mean, the ones from before my other mommy, my
1192
01:05:46.119 --> 01:05:51.400
other daddy, when I lived, you know, and again, small
1193
01:05:51.440 --> 01:05:54.599
children that had no concept of anything like that. It's,
1194
01:05:55.280 --> 01:05:57.719
it boggles the mind and it gives you something to
1195
01:05:57.760 --> 01:05:59.199
ponder and something to think about.
1196
01:06:00.260 --> 01:06:03.300
Absolutely. And they grew out of those memories as well.
1197
01:06:03.340 --> 01:06:05.219
If you were to ask them now, I'm glad that
1198
01:06:05.239 --> 01:06:07.920
I wrote them down when I did. And, um, shared
1199
01:06:07.960 --> 01:06:10.460
them with you and they've been recorded because when they
1200
01:06:10.480 --> 01:06:13.780
got to a certain age, they lost those memories. So.
1201
01:06:14.469 --> 01:06:20.969
And on hearing that now, what's their response to that? Anything?
1202
01:06:21.489 --> 01:06:23.949
Well, my oldest just rolls her eyes. She rolls her
1203
01:06:24.010 --> 01:06:30.219
eyes at anything that's weird or strange. So she's like, yeah, okay, mom.
1204
01:06:30.239 --> 01:06:34.440
My son, he just, he's like, yeah, I think I
1205
01:06:34.480 --> 01:06:38.469
remember saying that maybe, but he doesn't, It just doesn't
1206
01:06:38.489 --> 01:06:41.449
phase him. Yeah.
1207
01:06:41.469 --> 01:06:43.190
And that's strange. A lot of the way, a lot
1208
01:06:43.210 --> 01:06:46.949
of those memories, early, early childhood memories like that leave people.
1209
01:06:46.969 --> 01:06:50.090
I've known people that couldn't remember anything before they were
1210
01:06:50.130 --> 01:06:53.010
four or five years old, but I can remember vivid detail.
1211
01:06:53.030 --> 01:06:56.570
Like when I was still in diapers and stuff and just, again,
1212
01:06:56.610 --> 01:06:58.929
I've been blessed with a near photographic memory and it
1213
01:06:58.969 --> 01:07:01.590
goes way back. My youngest memory is when I was
1214
01:07:01.650 --> 01:07:05.550
six months old. Wow. I remember going to a place
1215
01:07:05.760 --> 01:07:08.420
with my dad where a house was being built and
1216
01:07:08.460 --> 01:07:12.170
they just had the foundation and a roof on it,
1217
01:07:12.280 --> 01:07:14.809
and they had part of the interior wall started, but
1218
01:07:14.869 --> 01:07:17.489
it was basically just a big open space. I remember
1219
01:07:17.530 --> 01:07:20.150
him picking me up and putting me up in there,
1220
01:07:20.590 --> 01:07:23.929
and I ran around on the subflooring. I mentioned that
1221
01:07:23.949 --> 01:07:26.250
to my dad when I was probably in my 30s
1222
01:07:26.309 --> 01:07:28.730
or something. When I was little, where did we go
1223
01:07:28.769 --> 01:07:31.570
to one time? I described that scenario, and he looked
1224
01:07:31.590 --> 01:07:33.570
at me, and he said, well, that was the house
1225
01:07:33.610 --> 01:07:35.150
you grew up in. But he said, you were only
1226
01:07:35.210 --> 01:07:36.929
six months old. He said, there's no way you can
1227
01:07:36.949 --> 01:07:40.550
remember that. But yet I did. So I didn't know
1228
01:07:40.590 --> 01:07:42.019
where it was. I didn't know it was the house
1229
01:07:42.079 --> 01:07:44.300
I grew up in. I didn't remember that part, but
1230
01:07:44.340 --> 01:07:48.000
I remembered being there and describing that situation exactly as
1231
01:07:48.059 --> 01:07:51.539
it happened. So starting child, some things like that will
1232
01:07:51.559 --> 01:07:54.389
stick with it. And other things maybe have no memory of,
1233
01:07:54.440 --> 01:07:57.159
or something that I did in elementary school or even
1234
01:07:57.219 --> 01:07:59.289
high school, I'll come back to me like, oh yeah,
1235
01:07:59.309 --> 01:08:03.150
I remember when that happened. But yeah, I've had that
1236
01:08:03.210 --> 01:08:06.070
happen too, where I would mention something that happened in
1237
01:08:06.429 --> 01:08:08.469
school years and people that was there with them. I
1238
01:08:08.510 --> 01:08:10.889
don't remember that. Like, yeah, you were right there with me.
1239
01:08:10.949 --> 01:08:14.940
We talked about it. Maybe it was just so traumatic
1240
01:08:14.960 --> 01:08:18.539
for them. They blotted it out. I don't know. But
1241
01:08:19.279 --> 01:08:21.840
getting back into the school part of this now, and
1242
01:08:21.939 --> 01:08:25.140
I mentioned in the introduction there that you're a classics professor.
1243
01:08:26.130 --> 01:08:29.189
How do your students feel about your other fields of
1244
01:08:29.250 --> 01:08:31.229
interest and fields of endeavor? Is that something you ever
1245
01:08:31.300 --> 01:08:33.600
discuss with them or do you keep your lives separate?
1246
01:08:34.619 --> 01:08:36.779
Yeah, they're pretty separate. They're not aware of it unless
1247
01:08:36.800 --> 01:08:42.100
they were to look into my name, I guess. So
1248
01:08:42.119 --> 01:08:45.159
that isn't something that comes up. Now, I did actually
1249
01:08:45.380 --> 01:08:49.279
last fall speak with a college class that was not mine.
1250
01:08:50.470 --> 01:08:53.029
It was an English class, I believe, just talking to
1251
01:08:53.050 --> 01:08:59.880
them about kind of following what you enjoy whenever you
1252
01:08:59.899 --> 01:09:03.199
go out into the professional world and then hoping that
1253
01:09:03.239 --> 01:09:08.659
that becomes something that's fruitful later. So they were asking
1254
01:09:08.680 --> 01:09:10.220
me all kinds of questions about the world of the
1255
01:09:10.239 --> 01:09:12.270
weird and how I got to be in there and
1256
01:09:12.310 --> 01:09:16.949
how that actually became a job. Because that's always the hope, right?
1257
01:09:18.149 --> 01:09:20.569
Yeah, I love that. And it is. It's such a
1258
01:09:20.609 --> 01:09:24.130
blessing to get to do what I do and make
1259
01:09:24.170 --> 01:09:27.229
a living doing it. Otherwise, I'd be working in a
1260
01:09:27.270 --> 01:09:30.649
bookstore or a record store or pumping gas or something
1261
01:09:30.670 --> 01:09:34.189
because I'm not fit for any kind of normal employment,
1262
01:09:34.710 --> 01:09:36.869
which I've proven over time. And I've worn a lot
1263
01:09:36.909 --> 01:09:40.949
of hats. I've been a network administrator. I've been technical
1264
01:09:40.989 --> 01:09:45.789
support for a large medical group. I've worked construction, demolition,
1265
01:09:45.869 --> 01:09:49.989
done a little bit of everything. But writing and talking
1266
01:09:50.529 --> 01:09:54.409
seems to be my forte. My dad gave me that
1267
01:09:54.489 --> 01:09:57.409
when I was little because I talked a lot. And
1268
01:09:57.470 --> 01:09:59.550
he said, boy, he said, if you can ever find
1269
01:09:59.590 --> 01:10:01.890
a way to get paid for talking, you'll be set.
1270
01:10:02.109 --> 01:10:04.310
And here I am. So thanks, dad.
1271
01:10:04.350 --> 01:10:08.289
Thanks, dad. He called it.
1272
01:10:09.010 --> 01:10:11.710
Same one that used to accuse me of having the
1273
01:10:11.729 --> 01:10:14.250
ability to talk until I knew what I wanted to say.
1274
01:10:14.289 --> 01:10:16.810
And that's true. I've always been very glad. Had the
1275
01:10:16.829 --> 01:10:20.409
gift of gab. And one of my favorite classes that
1276
01:10:20.430 --> 01:10:23.819
I ever took in college was extraneous speaking. I'm sorry,
1277
01:10:23.939 --> 01:10:28.779
extemporaneous speaking. And people were panicking. You know, you had
1278
01:10:28.979 --> 01:10:31.600
they gave you your topic on an index card and
1279
01:10:31.619 --> 01:10:34.119
you had five minutes to prepare. And I said to
1280
01:10:34.140 --> 01:10:37.479
the professor, that's not extemporaneous. You're giving me five minutes.
1281
01:10:37.810 --> 01:10:39.409
I said, I want you to hand me my card
1282
01:10:39.810 --> 01:10:41.850
when I get on the podium. And he said, you're
1283
01:10:41.890 --> 01:10:44.550
sure you want to do this? Yes, sir. I did it,
1284
01:10:44.750 --> 01:10:47.470
and I gave a wonderful talk. It was about the
1285
01:10:47.689 --> 01:10:50.949
Versailles Peace Treaty or something, but I knew enough about
1286
01:10:50.989 --> 01:10:54.319
it to compare and contrast and get through it, and
1287
01:10:54.420 --> 01:10:56.760
he was impressed, and he said, I bet you can't
1288
01:10:56.800 --> 01:10:59.739
do it again. I said, I bet I can, and
1289
01:11:00.140 --> 01:11:03.380
I could do that every time, and it's just, I've
1290
01:11:03.619 --> 01:11:05.850
always read a lot and just have a broad base
1291
01:11:05.949 --> 01:11:08.449
of knowledge, and it has provided me with the ability
1292
01:11:08.470 --> 01:11:12.810
to jack of all trades, if you will. polymath. I
1293
01:11:12.850 --> 01:11:14.729
know a little bit about a lot of different things,
1294
01:11:14.770 --> 01:11:17.460
but I'm really not an expert in any area. And
1295
01:11:17.520 --> 01:11:21.100
in fact, nothing scares me away any faster than to
1296
01:11:21.140 --> 01:11:24.199
be described as an expert in the paranormal or cryptids
1297
01:11:24.220 --> 01:11:27.020
or anything, or for somebody to be introduced to me that, well,
1298
01:11:27.039 --> 01:11:30.060
this is Joe Smith. He's an expert in the paranormal. Okay.
1299
01:11:31.079 --> 01:11:33.000
I don't think there are any experts. I think we're
1300
01:11:33.140 --> 01:11:37.430
all on a quest for more knowledge. And I gave
1301
01:11:37.489 --> 01:11:39.869
up looking for the answers a long time ago, Heather.
1302
01:11:39.909 --> 01:11:42.369
I've often said that now I'm just looking for the
1303
01:11:42.430 --> 01:11:45.869
next set of questions. And if we had all the answers,
1304
01:11:46.390 --> 01:11:48.529
my journey, my personal journey, wouldn't have been near as
1305
01:11:48.569 --> 01:11:52.609
much fun and enjoyable as it has been. And Soraya
1306
01:11:52.720 --> 01:11:55.600
Azkath from Where'd the Rogue Go, he once quipped that
1307
01:11:55.640 --> 01:11:58.619
it's like this big jigsaw puzzle that we're trying to
1308
01:11:58.659 --> 01:12:02.420
put together, but we don't have the box to even
1309
01:12:02.479 --> 01:12:04.579
see what the picture is that we're trying to make.
1310
01:12:05.420 --> 01:12:08.039
And yet before we get into it, we discover that
1311
01:12:08.140 --> 01:12:12.159
some cosmic joker, has mixed maybe a dozen puzzles together.
1312
01:12:12.560 --> 01:12:15.100
So maybe the one that we're working on, there are
1313
01:12:15.140 --> 01:12:17.770
pieces that don't fit anywhere. And I thought that was
1314
01:12:17.829 --> 01:12:20.149
very good description.
1315
01:12:20.170 --> 01:12:23.090
Yeah. Yeah. I agree with that. That seems to be
1316
01:12:23.149 --> 01:12:25.569
definitely the way it is always coming away with more
1317
01:12:25.630 --> 01:12:27.149
questions than answers. That's for sure.
1318
01:12:28.789 --> 01:12:30.859
And that's the way it's supposed to be. And when
1319
01:12:30.880 --> 01:12:34.760
I've talked about my first, um, full body apparition, uh,
1320
01:12:36.520 --> 01:12:38.819
Long story short, a little boy ran out from behind
1321
01:12:38.880 --> 01:12:42.939
a car that was stopped at an intersection. The driver
1322
01:12:43.079 --> 01:12:45.720
didn't act like he saw it or whatever at all,
1323
01:12:45.760 --> 01:12:48.779
didn't acknowledge it in the least. Ran kind of candy
1324
01:12:48.800 --> 01:12:52.359
corner down into our yard, fell down and disappeared. Small child.
1325
01:12:53.220 --> 01:12:55.039
I didn't take my eyes off the spot, went straight
1326
01:12:55.100 --> 01:12:57.659
to the spot. Nothing there, nothing I could have mistaken
1327
01:12:57.699 --> 01:13:01.960
for a child. Nothing, no hole or anything that somebody
1328
01:13:01.979 --> 01:13:04.119
could have fallen into. I knew every inch of that yard.
1329
01:13:05.050 --> 01:13:08.090
And we lived quite a ways back off the road,
1330
01:13:08.090 --> 01:13:12.880
213 feet from the edge of our garage to the
1331
01:13:13.119 --> 01:13:15.020
edge of the road. I measured it later in life
1332
01:13:15.039 --> 01:13:17.859
when I was doing BMX prints, but I was about
1333
01:13:17.880 --> 01:13:19.560
a hundred feet out in the yard. So this happened,
1334
01:13:19.600 --> 01:13:21.979
went right to the spot, nothing there. I even went
1335
01:13:22.010 --> 01:13:23.890
and got a shovel out of my dad's tool shed
1336
01:13:23.930 --> 01:13:26.289
and dug in that spot to see if there was
1337
01:13:26.329 --> 01:13:29.210
something buried there or something. And I told that story
1338
01:13:29.430 --> 01:13:32.029
to Cisco Murdoch and she said, you know, Steve, you've
1339
01:13:32.109 --> 01:13:35.170
never put down that shovel. You're still digging. And I am.
1340
01:13:35.289 --> 01:13:38.489
I'm still looking for the disappearing child. That was what
1341
01:13:38.529 --> 01:13:42.149
started me on my journey. And I asked my granny
1342
01:13:42.220 --> 01:13:47.119
about that. She was very intuitive. A self-described gypsy witch.
1343
01:13:47.199 --> 01:13:49.659
I don't know where the gypsy part came in. But
1344
01:13:49.939 --> 01:13:53.560
told fortunes, red tea leaves and coffee grounds, animal entrails,
1345
01:13:53.600 --> 01:13:56.119
things like that. And I asked her about that. And
1346
01:13:56.140 --> 01:13:59.729
she said, well, a very cryptic answer. Sometimes you see
1347
01:13:59.779 --> 01:14:02.380
things that are meant for you to see. Other times
1348
01:14:02.420 --> 01:14:04.600
you see things that are meant for other people to see,
1349
01:14:04.659 --> 01:14:07.479
and you just happen to see it. Sometimes you'll just
1350
01:14:07.520 --> 01:14:10.840
see things that there's no rhyme or reason, no explanation
1351
01:14:10.960 --> 01:14:15.229
that you'll never know, even in retrospect. So there you go.
1352
01:14:15.409 --> 01:14:17.590
I don't know. And I still don't know, but it
1353
01:14:18.109 --> 01:14:20.329
started me on this journey of what was that? It
1354
01:14:20.369 --> 01:14:22.810
didn't scare me. It was just like, what was that?
1355
01:14:22.850 --> 01:14:24.890
You know, what just happened? What did I just witness?
1356
01:14:25.010 --> 01:14:26.770
And off I went.
1357
01:14:27.670 --> 01:14:28.909
How old were you when that happened?
1358
01:14:29.609 --> 01:14:34.909
I was four. Wow. wow and that's uh i see
1359
01:14:34.989 --> 01:14:36.750
i've talked to a lot of people that between the
1360
01:14:36.810 --> 01:14:39.569
ages of three and five that seems to be the
1361
01:14:39.609 --> 01:14:43.819
the prime optimal time to have these experiences that either
1362
01:14:44.539 --> 01:14:47.159
shut you down where you don't care or make you
1363
01:14:47.180 --> 01:14:51.079
curious for the rest of your life right yeah but
1364
01:14:51.119 --> 01:14:54.560
more so uh it makes you curious and uh i
1365
01:14:55.100 --> 01:14:57.989
said it started me on a lifelong quest and I
1366
01:14:58.010 --> 01:15:00.310
haven't gotten any further. I'm still in that yard digging
1367
01:15:00.329 --> 01:15:02.470
with a shovel. It's just somebody else's yard and a
1368
01:15:02.510 --> 01:15:05.609
different shovel now, but still looking for answers.
1369
01:15:06.590 --> 01:15:07.949
I like that. I like that a lot.
1370
01:15:07.970 --> 01:15:11.750
Now the, you talked about some of your early experiences.
1371
01:15:11.789 --> 01:15:14.479
Was that the one that kind of set you on
1372
01:15:14.520 --> 01:15:17.319
this path or were there, there are several, cause I
1373
01:15:17.340 --> 01:15:19.840
had other experiences. I had more around the age of, um,
1374
01:15:21.960 --> 01:15:24.859
Between five and six and then again around seven and eight,
1375
01:15:25.220 --> 01:15:28.210
it just continued on. It just was nonstop at that
1376
01:15:28.289 --> 01:15:32.390
point and still that way to a degree. But was
1377
01:15:32.909 --> 01:15:36.810
that your impetus? Was that your aha moment when you thought,
1378
01:15:36.829 --> 01:15:38.890
you know, there's something else out here and I got
1379
01:15:38.909 --> 01:15:39.880
to find out what it is?
1380
01:15:40.850 --> 01:15:44.500
Well, I mean, I was always intrigued by, like I said,
1381
01:15:44.539 --> 01:15:47.960
watching Unsolved Mysteries. But beyond that, just in a more
1382
01:15:48.020 --> 01:15:52.720
personal vein, my mom would tell me, since I was young,
1383
01:15:52.760 --> 01:15:55.020
that she grew up in a haunted house. And I
1384
01:15:55.050 --> 01:15:56.739
would ask her questions about that. Like, how did you
1385
01:15:56.779 --> 01:15:59.130
know it was haunted? And she told me this story
1386
01:15:59.149 --> 01:16:04.010
about when she was younger, that my grandmother had bought
1387
01:16:04.050 --> 01:16:07.789
them a Ouija board for Christmas. And she technically bought
1388
01:16:07.810 --> 01:16:10.750
it for my, my aunt, but it was, of course,
1389
01:16:10.810 --> 01:16:13.630
you know, that's a, a group effort for them to
1390
01:16:13.670 --> 01:16:18.029
play Ouija board, but, or it should be, I guess anyway. So, um,
1391
01:16:19.789 --> 01:16:21.630
they were sitting on playing with the Ouija board. My
1392
01:16:21.710 --> 01:16:24.510
aunt's freaked out about it. Um, but it started to sit,
1393
01:16:24.550 --> 01:16:26.449
spell out that there was a spirit in the house.
1394
01:16:27.609 --> 01:16:30.109
It said that her name was Elizabeth and that she
1395
01:16:30.180 --> 01:16:34.479
lived in my mother's room. So mom would tell me
1396
01:16:34.500 --> 01:16:37.359
this story. And she also then ended it with my
1397
01:16:37.439 --> 01:16:39.479
aunt got too freaked out and then had my grandmother
1398
01:16:39.520 --> 01:16:44.739
burned the board, which whatever she had her burn the board. So, uh,
1399
01:16:46.359 --> 01:16:48.359
as I would grow up, we would always drive past
1400
01:16:49.590 --> 01:16:51.880
that my mother's childhood home on the way to visit
1401
01:16:51.939 --> 01:16:54.100
my grandparents, because they had moved just down the road
1402
01:16:54.140 --> 01:16:56.840
into a different house when they got older. And she
1403
01:16:56.880 --> 01:16:58.380
would always point to the house and she would point
1404
01:16:58.420 --> 01:16:59.960
to the window that was hers. And she'd be like,
1405
01:16:59.979 --> 01:17:03.930
that's Elizabeth's room. And I still know, because I live
1406
01:17:03.970 --> 01:17:07.550
not far from that place now, which room was Elizabeth's room.
1407
01:17:07.949 --> 01:17:11.609
But I grew up hearing that story. And I was
1408
01:17:11.829 --> 01:17:17.109
in third grade, I believe, whenever mom bought me my
1409
01:17:17.149 --> 01:17:21.090
first Ouija board. And I would play on that thing
1410
01:17:21.390 --> 01:17:24.409
with my dad, with mom and my mom's friend that
1411
01:17:24.449 --> 01:17:26.270
would come over and do her hair. She was really
1412
01:17:26.489 --> 01:17:30.689
gifted with tarot cards and Ouija boards and things like that.
1413
01:17:31.789 --> 01:17:34.729
We would play on it all the time. And it
1414
01:17:34.770 --> 01:17:37.859
just was, it just was, I guess there was a
1415
01:17:37.859 --> 01:17:40.020
Ouija board in the house and it was something that
1416
01:17:40.340 --> 01:17:43.300
we would get on and talk to every once in
1417
01:17:43.319 --> 01:17:45.079
a while. It's not something that I was like addicted
1418
01:17:45.119 --> 01:17:47.569
to by any means or anything like that, but It
1419
01:17:47.590 --> 01:17:49.369
was something that was there. It existed and it was
1420
01:17:49.409 --> 01:17:51.949
what it was. Mom grew up in a haunted house.
1421
01:17:52.109 --> 01:17:53.850
She just grew up in a haunted house. There wasn't
1422
01:17:53.869 --> 01:17:56.750
a question about it. And I think just growing up
1423
01:17:56.850 --> 01:18:04.090
in that realm helped precipitate me being in this world
1424
01:18:04.310 --> 01:18:06.659
that I'm in now. It just was, it just existed.
1425
01:18:06.920 --> 01:18:11.560
And then as far as where mom grew up, many
1426
01:18:11.619 --> 01:18:15.600
years later, it was after I had started working with
1427
01:18:15.619 --> 01:18:18.560
small town monsters, um, and I started writing for Shannon
1428
01:18:18.779 --> 01:18:22.979
Legro for the, uh, weird writer blog, uh, I decided,
1429
01:18:23.189 --> 01:18:24.949
let me take some of my skills that I've learned
1430
01:18:24.989 --> 01:18:26.829
as an adult and see if I can find any
1431
01:18:26.930 --> 01:18:29.710
truth to this Elizabeth story. So I went to the
1432
01:18:29.729 --> 01:18:34.649
County courthouse and started looking up land records. And I
1433
01:18:34.729 --> 01:18:38.609
found actually there was an Elizabeth Lighty that lived in
1434
01:18:38.649 --> 01:18:43.399
that house. She was on the deeds, um, which in
1435
01:18:43.439 --> 01:18:46.140
itself was rare because this was in the 1800s to
1436
01:18:46.159 --> 01:18:49.420
have a female on the deeds, but she was there. Um,
1437
01:18:49.460 --> 01:18:55.699
so there wasn't Elizabeth that lived in that house for real. Um, and, um,
1438
01:18:56.699 --> 01:18:58.500
it was, it was like a full circle moment to
1439
01:18:58.539 --> 01:19:00.869
have that come back around and see that that was
1440
01:19:00.909 --> 01:19:03.369
something that I could actually verify from this childhood story,
1441
01:19:03.409 --> 01:19:08.090
because I just always knew the name was Elizabeth and
1442
01:19:08.109 --> 01:19:11.210
that she supposedly lived in that house. And Sure enough,
1443
01:19:11.569 --> 01:19:13.449
there she is on paper. If you go to the
1444
01:19:13.489 --> 01:19:16.529
county courthouse, you can find her. But that's how I
1445
01:19:16.550 --> 01:19:19.220
kind of grew up with all of this stuff. It
1446
01:19:19.260 --> 01:19:25.399
just existed. It was there and without question. I had
1447
01:19:25.439 --> 01:19:32.529
a moment whenever I was younger. I was probably in
1448
01:19:32.590 --> 01:19:36.949
middle school, I would say, when my parents had left
1449
01:19:36.970 --> 01:19:39.880
to go to the store or something. they weren't home
1450
01:19:40.000 --> 01:19:43.060
either way. And I was sitting in the living room
1451
01:19:43.100 --> 01:19:46.680
playing with the dogs and the cats and just watching TV.
1452
01:19:46.779 --> 01:19:49.460
And all of a sudden all the animals froze and
1453
01:19:49.479 --> 01:19:54.840
they looked behind me and I, it threw me off. Uh,
1454
01:19:54.909 --> 01:19:57.329
obviously they just suddenly stopped and they're all staring in
1455
01:19:57.350 --> 01:19:59.310
the same place. So I turn around and looked in
1456
01:19:59.350 --> 01:20:03.069
the doorway leading to the dining room right behind me.
1457
01:20:03.590 --> 01:20:08.020
There was a man standing in the doorway. Um, now
1458
01:20:08.100 --> 01:20:11.720
he was in like native American garb, but when I
1459
01:20:11.779 --> 01:20:16.699
first saw him, I just had this calming feeling of, Oh,
1460
01:20:16.739 --> 01:20:19.560
that's just dad. You know, like it was just a
1461
01:20:19.680 --> 01:20:22.899
fatherly type feeling. I wasn't concerned. I wasn't scared. I
1462
01:20:22.939 --> 01:20:24.090
just saw him and I was like, Oh, and I
1463
01:20:24.130 --> 01:20:26.489
turned back around and then it caught up to me.
1464
01:20:26.550 --> 01:20:29.789
Wait a second. That's not dad. When I turned back
1465
01:20:29.829 --> 01:20:31.850
to look a second time, it was gone and the
1466
01:20:31.909 --> 01:20:36.310
animals had resumed back what they were doing. Um, So we,
1467
01:20:36.319 --> 01:20:38.350
of course, asked the Ouija board about that later. And
1468
01:20:38.630 --> 01:20:40.510
I was told that it was a guardian that was there.
1469
01:20:41.109 --> 01:20:44.170
But I don't know. Things like that would happen. I
1470
01:20:44.270 --> 01:20:48.710
would hear footsteps go up and down the hallway because
1471
01:20:48.729 --> 01:20:50.939
there's definitely a way to tell the difference between mom
1472
01:20:50.960 --> 01:20:53.279
and dad's footsteps. They sounded differently if they'd get up
1473
01:20:53.300 --> 01:20:54.560
in the middle of the night and walk out to
1474
01:20:54.600 --> 01:20:57.199
get a glass of water or something. And it always
1475
01:20:57.239 --> 01:20:59.520
sounded like dad getting up and walking. But when I
1476
01:20:59.539 --> 01:21:02.060
would get up to check, it wasn't dad. There would
1477
01:21:02.079 --> 01:21:05.369
be nobody there. So I would think in my head, oh,
1478
01:21:05.390 --> 01:21:09.430
that's just that guardian walking down the hallway again. So
1479
01:21:09.449 --> 01:21:11.670
stuff like that is kind of what I grew up
1480
01:21:11.710 --> 01:21:16.270
with and I think helped me be the person I
1481
01:21:16.350 --> 01:21:16.670
am now.
1482
01:21:17.270 --> 01:21:20.029
And I agree. If you're around it and you're exposed
1483
01:21:20.069 --> 01:21:23.869
to it, like especially in the case of my mom,
1484
01:21:23.890 --> 01:21:27.760
I mean, their natural was a supernatural. You know, they
1485
01:21:27.819 --> 01:21:32.500
had regular seances, table tipping or table tapping, Ouija boards,
1486
01:21:32.619 --> 01:21:35.210
card readings and stuff. They grew up with it, and
1487
01:21:35.229 --> 01:21:38.789
they just didn't know any different. And her family were
1488
01:21:38.810 --> 01:21:41.510
a part of the spiritualism movement from around the turn
1489
01:21:41.529 --> 01:21:44.109
of the last century. And the way they got into
1490
01:21:44.149 --> 01:21:49.069
it initially, they had a relative that never came back
1491
01:21:49.109 --> 01:21:51.649
from World War I, and they could never find out
1492
01:21:51.689 --> 01:21:53.949
what happened to him. I think that ended, what, 1918,
1493
01:21:53.949 --> 01:21:57.439
something like that. I'm a little rusty with my figures here.
1494
01:21:58.039 --> 01:22:01.989
But that was how they initially got into it. And
1495
01:22:02.050 --> 01:22:04.810
just as a little girl, you know, my mom participated
1496
01:22:04.869 --> 01:22:06.930
in those things and knew about those things. And even
1497
01:22:07.649 --> 01:22:10.029
up to the time she married my dad, prior to
1498
01:22:10.069 --> 01:22:11.689
them getting married, the first time she ever took him
1499
01:22:11.729 --> 01:22:15.220
to meet her family, they were doing a table tapping session.
1500
01:22:15.920 --> 01:22:19.199
And now my dad, he grew up hardscrabble Appalachian, but
1501
01:22:19.220 --> 01:22:21.859
he got out, went to University of Tennessee, my alma mater,
1502
01:22:22.699 --> 01:22:26.300
and was already on his path to civil engineering and
1503
01:22:26.319 --> 01:22:29.590
then later a scientist. But he said, I, you know,
1504
01:22:30.390 --> 01:22:33.369
it just mystified him. He said, they sounded like a
1505
01:22:33.409 --> 01:22:37.050
bunch of heathens. They were all sitting around, you know, rise, rise, rise, rise.
1506
01:22:37.789 --> 01:22:40.430
But he said, he looked around at every angle. He
1507
01:22:40.529 --> 01:22:43.100
made sure, you know, nobody had their toe under one
1508
01:22:43.119 --> 01:22:46.680
of the table legs, making it rise. Nobody had a
1509
01:22:47.359 --> 01:22:49.960
ruler up their sleeve under the table edge, you know,
1510
01:22:49.979 --> 01:22:52.460
and making it lift up an old parlor magic trick
1511
01:22:52.500 --> 01:22:56.170
or anything like that. He said, there was something unseen
1512
01:22:56.229 --> 01:22:59.640
force raising that table. and he talked about they would
1513
01:22:59.659 --> 01:23:02.319
even take some of the grandkids, or maybe even some
1514
01:23:02.340 --> 01:23:04.399
of the smaller kids at that time, because my mom
1515
01:23:04.420 --> 01:23:07.520
had younger siblings, put them on the table and try
1516
01:23:07.539 --> 01:23:08.800
to get it to rise, and he said that old
1517
01:23:08.859 --> 01:23:12.180
farm table creaked and groaned and tried every way in
1518
01:23:12.220 --> 01:23:14.220
the world to rise up with that added weight on there,
1519
01:23:14.239 --> 01:23:16.279
and it just couldn't do it, but he said I
1520
01:23:16.300 --> 01:23:19.359
had no explanation for it, and later in life, he
1521
01:23:19.399 --> 01:23:23.989
would talk about things that happened in a laboratory setting.
1522
01:23:24.050 --> 01:23:26.239
He said that There'd be times when they were doing
1523
01:23:26.279 --> 01:23:31.449
an experiment under extremely controlled conditions when things would just
1524
01:23:31.510 --> 01:23:34.329
happen that weren't supposed to happen. They could never get
1525
01:23:34.350 --> 01:23:36.329
it to happen again. They don't know how it happened,
1526
01:23:36.789 --> 01:23:40.130
yet it happened. Some anomalous result, he called it. And
1527
01:23:40.329 --> 01:23:42.949
there used to be a zine that I read back
1528
01:23:42.989 --> 01:23:46.270
in the 80s called the Journal of Irreproducible Results. And
1529
01:23:46.329 --> 01:23:50.260
it mentioned things like that, how sometimes, despite everything we do,
1530
01:23:51.380 --> 01:23:54.899
the natural laws that we've come up with, they don't
1531
01:23:55.930 --> 01:23:59.310
always correspond with supernatural laws and things and to me
1532
01:23:59.350 --> 01:24:02.670
that's just fascinating that you know here's a scientist but
1533
01:24:02.710 --> 01:24:06.649
yet he has a belief in the supernatural and I
1534
01:24:06.869 --> 01:24:09.590
get it and he experienced things you know when he
1535
01:24:09.630 --> 01:24:12.189
was growing up now they weren't as steeped in it
1536
01:24:12.409 --> 01:24:16.909
as my maternal grandmother and her family but they had
1537
01:24:16.949 --> 01:24:20.689
their share of it and tales passed around and hauntings
1538
01:24:20.829 --> 01:24:25.170
and inexplicable things in the woods and stuff so It
1539
01:24:25.210 --> 01:24:28.010
was there, but I said on the belief whole thing
1540
01:24:28.029 --> 01:24:31.350
that I was born out of the union of science
1541
01:24:31.390 --> 01:24:34.550
and superstition, and I sprang forth with the best of
1542
01:24:34.609 --> 01:24:37.670
both and bewildered, and here I still am.
1543
01:24:41.050 --> 01:24:41.770
That's worked.
1544
01:24:42.369 --> 01:24:44.670
It does. It sticks with you, and I had Ouija
1545
01:24:44.729 --> 01:24:48.310
board experiences too. I got my first one. I don't
1546
01:24:48.329 --> 01:24:50.210
think I was quite six years old yet. It was
1547
01:24:50.270 --> 01:24:53.449
between kindergarten and first grade, probably that summer it might
1548
01:24:53.470 --> 01:24:58.199
have been. the fall that I started first grade. I
1549
01:24:58.239 --> 01:25:01.550
talk about it in one of my videos, but I
1550
01:25:01.590 --> 01:25:03.970
was sick that day and I've been to the doctor,
1551
01:25:04.010 --> 01:25:06.989
had ear, nose, and throat problems my entire life. Had
1552
01:25:07.010 --> 01:25:09.109
to have tonsils and adenoids out when I was five.
1553
01:25:09.149 --> 01:25:12.289
That was traumatic. Don't catch colds or the flu. The
1554
01:25:12.329 --> 01:25:13.890
only time I've ever had the flu, I took a
1555
01:25:13.909 --> 01:25:17.109
flu shot in 1985 and got the flu and thought
1556
01:25:17.130 --> 01:25:19.090
I was going to die. Haven't had the flu since,
1557
01:25:19.109 --> 01:25:20.850
haven't had a flu shot since. So either that one
1558
01:25:20.869 --> 01:25:23.210
worked really, really good or it gave me the flu.
1559
01:25:24.199 --> 01:25:27.800
but I'd been for some ENT malady and we had
1560
01:25:27.840 --> 01:25:32.750
to stop by the drugstore to, to get my prescription filled. And, uh,
1561
01:25:33.090 --> 01:25:35.210
I'd wandered back to the toy. My mom was going
1562
01:25:35.229 --> 01:25:37.569
to let me get something. And I saw the Ouija
1563
01:25:37.609 --> 01:25:39.949
board and it was the old box with, uh, the
1564
01:25:39.970 --> 01:25:42.250
dark background of the stars and like a blue hooded
1565
01:25:42.369 --> 01:25:45.970
figure on the front of it, like a robed figure.
1566
01:25:46.250 --> 01:25:49.609
What is this? And, uh, she kind of explained it
1567
01:25:49.649 --> 01:25:51.460
to me like, Oh, I want one. Can I have it?
1568
01:25:51.500 --> 01:25:55.939
So she got me one. And, um, still remember sitting
1569
01:25:56.010 --> 01:25:59.109
in that I think it was a 62 Chevy 2
1570
01:25:59.109 --> 01:26:01.470
sitting in the back seat of that with my Ouija
1571
01:26:01.489 --> 01:26:04.930
board in my lap when we got home opened it
1572
01:26:05.029 --> 01:26:07.010
up and she gave me you know some caveats don't
1573
01:26:07.149 --> 01:26:09.890
ask anything you don't want it to know don't do
1574
01:26:09.930 --> 01:26:12.590
it by yourself don't ask it about your death or
1575
01:26:12.609 --> 01:26:15.909
somebody's close to your death things like that don't invite
1576
01:26:16.069 --> 01:26:18.840
anything in that you made on the board you know
1577
01:26:18.880 --> 01:26:22.300
just some general warnings about it and then that day
1578
01:26:22.359 --> 01:26:25.770
we used it and school must have been in session
1579
01:26:25.789 --> 01:26:27.710
because i remember the first thing i ever asked it
1580
01:26:27.750 --> 01:26:31.130
was when will it snow this year and it gave
1581
01:26:31.189 --> 01:26:33.869
a date and i marked it on the calendar and
1582
01:26:33.890 --> 01:26:36.369
uh i looked forward to that date because i love
1583
01:26:36.409 --> 01:26:38.689
snow still do loved a snow day though who didn't
1584
01:26:39.399 --> 01:26:43.899
yeah sure enough a couple days prior to that nope
1585
01:26:44.060 --> 01:26:45.979
not going to snow no snow in the forecast but
1586
01:26:46.000 --> 01:26:50.779
then overnight where we live there in east tennessee there
1587
01:26:50.800 --> 01:26:52.760
was a low that moved south of us and when
1588
01:26:52.779 --> 01:26:55.520
that happened and the conditions were right with the barometric
1589
01:26:55.560 --> 01:26:58.159
pressure in the wintertime, we'd get a snow. Snow dumped
1590
01:26:58.239 --> 01:26:59.739
on us, had a snow day on the day it
1591
01:26:59.819 --> 01:27:02.300
said some time prior.
1592
01:27:04.020 --> 01:27:04.619
That's awesome.
1593
01:27:05.810 --> 01:27:08.949
And then the next thing, there was a record of
1594
01:27:09.010 --> 01:27:14.409
circus music that I coveted from kindergarten. I wasn't able
1595
01:27:14.430 --> 01:27:16.649
to find it at any of the places I bought records.
1596
01:27:16.729 --> 01:27:19.369
I was a huge vinyl connoisseur even as a child,
1597
01:27:19.409 --> 01:27:23.270
even though mostly children's records. there was this record that
1598
01:27:23.289 --> 01:27:25.310
they played for us in kindergarten that I just had
1599
01:27:25.329 --> 01:27:32.649
to have. So we got the Ouija board out, we
1600
01:27:32.689 --> 01:27:36.510
consulted it, and it gave us the name of a
1601
01:27:36.550 --> 01:27:41.310
fairly obscure used record store on Market Square in downtown Knoxville.
1602
01:27:42.390 --> 01:27:46.510
And sure enough, my mom looked it up in the
1603
01:27:46.550 --> 01:27:48.250
phone book, back when there used to be such a
1604
01:27:48.270 --> 01:27:50.920
thing as a phone book, Back then, even though they
1605
01:27:50.939 --> 01:27:52.899
were just a few miles apart, it was long distance
1606
01:27:52.939 --> 01:27:55.840
to call Knoxville from where we lived in West Knox County.
1607
01:27:55.880 --> 01:28:00.850
We had an Oak Ridge number. And she called the
1608
01:28:00.890 --> 01:28:06.529
record store and gave the title of the record to
1609
01:28:06.569 --> 01:28:08.170
the guy. And he said, I don't know. I'll look
1610
01:28:08.229 --> 01:28:10.550
and see. He's like, I've got thousands of records in here,
1611
01:28:10.609 --> 01:28:12.890
used records. He said, but if I run across it,
1612
01:28:12.989 --> 01:28:16.710
I'll call you. And I thought, okay, great. You know,
1613
01:28:16.729 --> 01:28:18.770
I'm not even six yet. I thought, now that's the
1614
01:28:18.850 --> 01:28:21.390
end of that. I'll just keep looking. But sure enough,
1615
01:28:21.590 --> 01:28:22.979
I don't remember if it was later that day or
1616
01:28:22.989 --> 01:28:25.899
maybe the next day, we got a call. It was
1617
01:28:25.920 --> 01:28:27.460
the guy calling back and he said, I was in
1618
01:28:27.500 --> 01:28:29.659
the back. I was looking for something else. And I
1619
01:28:29.699 --> 01:28:32.500
just happened to spot that because I'd given a detailed
1620
01:28:32.539 --> 01:28:36.199
description of what the cover looked like. right he said
1621
01:28:36.220 --> 01:28:38.659
that that just it fell open and there it was
1622
01:28:38.819 --> 01:28:42.590
in the stacks back there in my albums and I've
1623
01:28:42.619 --> 01:28:44.149
got it here I'll hold it for you if you
1624
01:28:44.189 --> 01:28:46.229
want me to and of course I begged my mom
1625
01:28:47.029 --> 01:28:49.229
and a few days later we took the trip downtown
1626
01:28:49.270 --> 01:28:51.770
and this was back when you shopped downtown this is
1627
01:28:51.810 --> 01:28:55.930
before the real advent of strip malls or any malls.
1628
01:28:56.470 --> 01:28:58.390
You went downtown to went shopping. You had to get
1629
01:28:58.449 --> 01:29:00.430
dressed up. You know, my mom would wear heels and
1630
01:29:00.489 --> 01:29:04.060
pearls and everything, but we went downtown. We went some
1631
01:29:04.100 --> 01:29:07.029
other places. I think we went to JCPenney's and we
1632
01:29:07.069 --> 01:29:11.079
had lunch at, uh, uh, Crest G's and, uh, things
1633
01:29:11.119 --> 01:29:13.819
like that. Just things that you did downtown. We had
1634
01:29:13.840 --> 01:29:16.220
a certain lot where we'd park and my mom knew
1635
01:29:16.239 --> 01:29:20.369
the parking attendant there, uh, Her family had sold produce there.
1636
01:29:20.390 --> 01:29:23.550
There was a produce market not too far from there,
1637
01:29:24.670 --> 01:29:27.060
a huge one. And sure enough, we got to the
1638
01:29:27.140 --> 01:29:30.079
record store. The guy had it, and I rode home
1639
01:29:30.100 --> 01:29:33.500
with it in my lap. Thank you, Weegee. But again,
1640
01:29:35.039 --> 01:29:37.659
not everybody has a good experience or a positive experience,
1641
01:29:37.699 --> 01:29:39.920
but Cisco and I have talked about that. It's a tool,
1642
01:29:40.659 --> 01:29:43.380
and a lot of it goes on the intent, what
1643
01:29:43.399 --> 01:29:45.520
you're going to do with it. These days, I wouldn't
1644
01:29:45.680 --> 01:29:47.920
touch one. I'm not afraid of them. I have I
1645
01:29:47.909 --> 01:29:51.279
had some experiences later. I'll go ahead and tell that story.
1646
01:29:53.420 --> 01:29:55.859
I was in college. I was working at a little
1647
01:29:55.939 --> 01:30:00.380
restaurant part-time, and a guy invited me to a party
1648
01:30:00.720 --> 01:30:03.000
after work. It was at an apartment complex just down
1649
01:30:03.039 --> 01:30:04.979
the road from where we were working there in the
1650
01:30:05.159 --> 01:30:08.659
Cedar Bluff area of West Knoxville. I thought, sure, I'll go.
1651
01:30:08.819 --> 01:30:11.500
I didn't really want to go study or anything anyway.
1652
01:30:12.159 --> 01:30:14.409
Not that night. And I get there, it's in the
1653
01:30:14.449 --> 01:30:17.529
clubhouse of this big apartment complex. I didn't know anybody
1654
01:30:17.569 --> 01:30:20.550
there besides the guy that invited me from work. And
1655
01:30:20.569 --> 01:30:22.529
I didn't really know him other than just from work.
1656
01:30:22.569 --> 01:30:26.029
So they, I don't know if they had it with
1657
01:30:26.050 --> 01:30:28.069
them or if they found it or something. But anyway,
1658
01:30:28.109 --> 01:30:30.869
some girls came up with a Ouija board. They decided
1659
01:30:30.909 --> 01:30:33.140
that they would get three or four of them to
1660
01:30:33.180 --> 01:30:36.060
do it. And they would go around this room in
1661
01:30:36.100 --> 01:30:40.899
the clubhouse and ask questions. And they got to me.
1662
01:30:41.930 --> 01:30:44.869
And the only thing I said was, what scared me
1663
01:30:45.149 --> 01:30:46.989
when I was a child? And I had a specific,
1664
01:30:47.069 --> 01:30:49.930
very specific incident in mind. It was the thing in
1665
01:30:49.970 --> 01:30:51.529
the woods that chased me out of the woods that
1666
01:30:51.569 --> 01:30:54.819
I couldn't see. I never told that story outside the
1667
01:30:54.859 --> 01:30:58.460
family at that point. My immediate family knew it. But certainly,
1668
01:30:58.479 --> 01:31:00.619
I never told it to the guy that I worked with.
1669
01:31:00.699 --> 01:31:02.239
And none of the people at the party knew it.
1670
01:31:02.880 --> 01:31:05.060
But the girls that are working the board, it starts
1671
01:31:05.100 --> 01:31:12.739
doing the figure eight. And it spells out W-A-T-E-R. S-P-R-I-T-E.
1672
01:31:13.659 --> 01:31:15.260
And they look at me. I just kind of shrugged.
1673
01:31:15.279 --> 01:31:19.000
And they're, water sprite. It's thirsty. It wants a drink. Ha, ha, ha, ha.
1674
01:31:19.479 --> 01:31:23.539
And then they went on to somebody else. But my
1675
01:31:23.579 --> 01:31:25.319
next day off, which might have been the next day,
1676
01:31:25.359 --> 01:31:28.279
I went to the big library downtown. And I went
1677
01:31:28.319 --> 01:31:30.060
up to the reference desk. And I said, what can
1678
01:31:30.079 --> 01:31:32.659
you tell me about a water sprite or a water spirit?
1679
01:31:33.739 --> 01:31:36.989
The reference librarian goes up into the stacks. A few
1680
01:31:37.010 --> 01:31:39.130
minutes later, she comes back. She's got some books there.
1681
01:31:39.960 --> 01:31:44.119
And she showed me a book. You probably know about
1682
01:31:44.159 --> 01:31:46.680
this kind of stuff. There was two of them. There
1683
01:31:46.699 --> 01:31:49.319
was a niad and a dryad. One was a spirit
1684
01:31:49.359 --> 01:31:50.960
of the water and the other was a spirit of
1685
01:31:50.979 --> 01:31:54.119
the woods. They're very similar, but they're elementals, a type
1686
01:31:54.140 --> 01:31:57.439
of the fae, if you will. And according to the
1687
01:31:57.479 --> 01:31:59.949
Ouija board, that's what chased me out of the woods
1688
01:32:00.109 --> 01:32:03.310
was a water spirit. And it wasn't some little gossamer
1689
01:32:03.449 --> 01:32:07.569
Tinkerbell thing. This thing shook the ground and knocked branches
1690
01:32:07.609 --> 01:32:09.699
out of the way higher than my head. I could
1691
01:32:09.720 --> 01:32:11.680
see the leaves being kicked up in its wake. I
1692
01:32:11.720 --> 01:32:13.539
couldn't see it, but I could see the effects it
1693
01:32:13.560 --> 01:32:16.260
was having on the natural environment. Ran me out of
1694
01:32:16.279 --> 01:32:18.920
the woods not once, but twice. Once at eight years old,
1695
01:32:18.960 --> 01:32:22.300
again at 15 years old. But according to Ouija board,
1696
01:32:22.479 --> 01:32:25.220
it was a Fae Folk, an elemental, a Nyad.
1697
01:32:26.220 --> 01:32:30.359
Yeah. Yep. Wanting you out of there for some reason.
1698
01:32:30.399 --> 01:32:32.810
Why only me? My dad, my brother both went up
1699
01:32:32.819 --> 01:32:35.409
there and looked around. I even took a, I brought
1700
01:32:35.449 --> 01:32:36.909
a kid home with me from school one time. I
1701
01:32:36.949 --> 01:32:39.189
sent him up there. Go and stand by the edge
1702
01:32:39.229 --> 01:32:40.970
of the ditch and see if you see anything. And
1703
01:32:41.010 --> 01:32:43.550
I stood way down the hill behind the tree. And
1704
01:32:43.609 --> 01:32:47.409
I go, he's just looking around. Nope, nothing. But nothing
1705
01:32:47.489 --> 01:32:49.770
came out of the woods and chased him around the
1706
01:32:49.810 --> 01:32:52.729
ditch rather. And then I even got brave. I went
1707
01:32:52.789 --> 01:32:54.729
up closer to the edge of the ditch and had
1708
01:32:54.770 --> 01:32:57.949
him stand down the hill. Didn't chase me. But the
1709
01:32:58.010 --> 01:32:59.649
two times that I went up there alone, one at
1710
01:32:59.750 --> 01:33:02.789
eight and one at 15, chased me right out of there.
1711
01:33:02.930 --> 01:33:05.939
What was that? I mean, do you know anything about
1712
01:33:05.979 --> 01:33:06.489
a NIAID?
1713
01:33:08.539 --> 01:33:11.840
Just basically what you said, they're water spirits, then the
1714
01:33:11.880 --> 01:33:17.300
dryads are the wood spirits. They're in classical mythology. And
1715
01:33:18.819 --> 01:33:22.390
normally when they're talked about, they're not, I mean, any
1716
01:33:24.109 --> 01:33:26.770
spirits from classical mythology don't tend to be like Tinkerbell
1717
01:33:26.789 --> 01:33:29.069
type spirits either, as far as that goes.
1718
01:33:29.210 --> 01:33:31.449
And that's the thing, you dig into the Fae folk,
1719
01:33:31.510 --> 01:33:35.489
and particularly in Celtic countries where that was almost a religion,
1720
01:33:35.550 --> 01:33:38.960
may still be, they were evil creatures. You had to
1721
01:33:39.000 --> 01:33:42.779
appease them and they would trick you. There's only like one,
1722
01:33:43.090 --> 01:33:45.529
there's different clans and different types. There's one type of
1723
01:33:45.550 --> 01:33:47.670
them that's kind of nice. I think those are pixies
1724
01:33:47.729 --> 01:33:52.289
or something, but I can't articulate all I know about it,
1725
01:33:52.329 --> 01:33:56.010
but they're not nice things, but they describe things like
1726
01:33:57.729 --> 01:34:00.800
in Ireland, the story I read from the 1700s, maybe
1727
01:34:00.939 --> 01:34:07.000
early 1800s about some little men in a horseless carriage
1728
01:34:07.039 --> 01:34:09.600
that came down from the sky. Well, there's a UFO experience.
1729
01:34:10.159 --> 01:34:12.060
Or there were types of them that were big hairy
1730
01:34:12.079 --> 01:34:14.819
men that lived in the woods. There's Bigfoot or Sasquatch
1731
01:34:14.859 --> 01:34:18.210
or Yowie or whatever. It's kind of an umbrella that
1732
01:34:18.329 --> 01:34:21.270
everything else fits under. But you can talk to a
1733
01:34:21.350 --> 01:34:25.170
Bigfoot enthusiast or a UFO experiencer and mention the Fae,
1734
01:34:25.189 --> 01:34:27.270
they'll snicker at you. They're like, oh, that doesn't. But
1735
01:34:27.949 --> 01:34:30.430
I think it does. I think it all ties together.
1736
01:34:30.529 --> 01:34:32.310
Do you have any thoughts on that? I'm sorry to
1737
01:34:32.350 --> 01:34:33.380
put you on the spot here.
1738
01:34:33.399 --> 01:34:36.239
I agree. No, it's fine. No, I think that it
1739
01:34:36.359 --> 01:34:38.619
all ties together. And I think that we'd get more.
1740
01:34:38.640 --> 01:34:40.949
I mean, we talked about earlier how you end up
1741
01:34:40.989 --> 01:34:42.930
with more questions than answers, but I think that we'd
1742
01:34:42.970 --> 01:34:45.390
end up with some more answers if we would all
1743
01:34:45.430 --> 01:34:47.770
kind of work together and get over this. Well, you know,
1744
01:34:47.789 --> 01:34:51.069
this is real, but that's not kind of situation. It's
1745
01:34:51.350 --> 01:34:57.659
all weird. It's all strange. So there's definitely... corresponding things
1746
01:34:57.720 --> 01:35:02.029
about UFOs, between ghosts, between cryptids that just overlap one another,
1747
01:35:02.050 --> 01:35:03.729
that if we were to take the time and actually
1748
01:35:03.789 --> 01:35:05.949
communicate with one another, I think that we might have
1749
01:35:06.609 --> 01:35:08.949
more answers. I'm not saying that we would have answers
1750
01:35:08.970 --> 01:35:11.109
to everything, but we would have more than what we
1751
01:35:11.149 --> 01:35:12.840
have now. At least that's my belief.
1752
01:35:13.899 --> 01:35:15.960
I agree. And it would fit it within a broader
1753
01:35:16.039 --> 01:35:19.880
scope from which to do those studies and things from.
1754
01:35:19.920 --> 01:35:23.779
But yeah, people will fight you over their individual beliefs.
1755
01:35:23.890 --> 01:35:27.189
I've seen that happen at Bigfoot conferences, and then when
1756
01:35:27.270 --> 01:35:29.970
I spoke at a UFO conference in San Francisco a
1757
01:35:30.789 --> 01:35:34.470
couple years ago. Now, obviously, people almost get into fistfights
1758
01:35:34.550 --> 01:35:36.489
over stuff, and you're like, that's not why we're here
1759
01:35:36.529 --> 01:35:39.270
to argue. We're here to present our opinion, not necessarily
1760
01:35:39.310 --> 01:35:42.090
to defend it, and a lot of people don't get that.
1761
01:35:42.170 --> 01:35:45.149
On this show, I've had a couple of pastors on
1762
01:35:45.210 --> 01:35:49.670
from Sound the Shofar Messianic Ministries and look at the
1763
01:35:49.710 --> 01:35:53.489
paranormal and UFOs and things like that from not only
1764
01:35:53.529 --> 01:35:56.250
a biblical perspective, but from the perspective of the Torah
1765
01:35:56.289 --> 01:36:01.270
being Messianic Jews, they follow both the Torah and the Bible.
1766
01:36:01.909 --> 01:36:05.510
And they had some interesting things to say. Again, you know, people,
1767
01:36:05.989 --> 01:36:08.520
it's controversial and not everybody's going to agree with it,
1768
01:36:08.560 --> 01:36:10.899
but I like to keep an open mind. You know,
1769
01:36:10.920 --> 01:36:13.880
I don't think, especially when you have something like this,
1770
01:36:15.020 --> 01:36:17.140
that there are no experts and there are no answers.
1771
01:36:17.180 --> 01:36:19.640
There is no right or wrong opinion, but I like
1772
01:36:19.659 --> 01:36:22.710
to hear other people's opinion. I didn't invite them hear
1773
01:36:22.729 --> 01:36:24.390
any of the times that they've been on to beat
1774
01:36:24.409 --> 01:36:26.069
them up about it or get them to defend it.
1775
01:36:26.130 --> 01:36:28.229
I just want to know what that opinion is.
1776
01:36:29.229 --> 01:36:33.279
Yeah. Yeah, exactly. And it's weird. Not only do you
1777
01:36:33.340 --> 01:36:38.119
see the fighting between the different groups, between UFOs and
1778
01:36:38.140 --> 01:36:40.899
ghosts and Bigfoot and things like that, but we also,
1779
01:36:41.100 --> 01:36:43.520
as humans, apparently like to fight about anything we can
1780
01:36:43.539 --> 01:36:47.029
fight about, and there's infighting even within those particular communities.
1781
01:36:47.050 --> 01:36:52.880
The In the Bigfoot community, people take a side as
1782
01:36:52.920 --> 01:36:55.039
to what they think Bigfoot is, and then that's the
1783
01:36:55.159 --> 01:36:58.180
only way. They don't want to hear any other arguments
1784
01:36:58.220 --> 01:37:00.819
to it. And the same thing with Dogman. I mean,
1785
01:37:01.939 --> 01:37:04.770
it gets pretty vicious sometimes, and I just don't understand it.
1786
01:37:04.840 --> 01:37:09.010
I don't get why we're so drawn to wanting to
1787
01:37:09.550 --> 01:37:11.710
fight and have all of this drama instead of trying
1788
01:37:11.750 --> 01:37:13.630
to figure things out. Like you said, we don't have
1789
01:37:13.729 --> 01:37:17.369
experts in this field. We don't have the answers like that.
1790
01:37:17.449 --> 01:37:19.569
So what are we doing?
1791
01:37:20.359 --> 01:37:23.020
It reminds me of the movie from the 70s, The Warriors.
1792
01:37:23.060 --> 01:37:25.060
Did you ever see that about the gangs in New
1793
01:37:25.100 --> 01:37:30.260
York City? Cyrus, the leader of all the gangs, was
1794
01:37:30.300 --> 01:37:33.439
trying to tell them that. He said, we're here. Between us,
1795
01:37:33.470 --> 01:37:36.409
we're fighting over a few square feet of sidewalk, our turf.
1796
01:37:36.890 --> 01:37:39.890
He said, but if we band together, we outnumber everybody,
1797
01:37:40.010 --> 01:37:42.390
the police and everything, and we could run New York City.
1798
01:37:42.430 --> 01:37:46.109
And then they killed him. And that was the whole
1799
01:37:46.170 --> 01:37:48.899
movie was The Warriors. got blamed for it, and they
1800
01:37:48.930 --> 01:37:50.829
were trying to make their way back to their turf,
1801
01:37:50.850 --> 01:37:53.710
which was at Coney Island. It's a great movie. It's
1802
01:37:53.750 --> 01:37:56.970
very dated, but that's always stuck with me. You know,
1803
01:37:56.989 --> 01:37:59.810
we're here fighting over a few feet of sidewalk, when
1804
01:37:59.850 --> 01:38:02.659
if we band together, we're bigger than everything out there.
1805
01:38:03.539 --> 01:38:04.500
Yeah, exactly.
1806
01:38:05.079 --> 01:38:06.420
And that's the way I worked the name of the
1807
01:38:06.479 --> 01:38:09.180
show in there unintentionally. Everything out there.
1808
01:38:09.199 --> 01:38:10.939
There you go. Perfect.
1809
01:38:11.619 --> 01:38:17.500
Unintended plug there for my own show. Heather, what have
1810
01:38:17.520 --> 01:38:20.340
you got coming up? You mentioned some of the small-town
1811
01:38:20.359 --> 01:38:22.159
monster stuff. What else is going on for you?
1812
01:38:24.039 --> 01:38:27.949
Well, I recently had a short story printed in something
1813
01:38:28.029 --> 01:38:32.630
called The Archbishop. it's an anthology of different short stories
1814
01:38:32.909 --> 01:38:37.020
um congratulations thank you thank you uh that short story
1815
01:38:37.060 --> 01:38:40.100
is called the wendigo that one was a lot of
1816
01:38:40.140 --> 01:38:42.840
fun to to write a different kind of playing with
1817
01:38:42.899 --> 01:38:45.840
perspective a little bit on that so i've got that
1818
01:38:46.279 --> 01:38:50.010
um And then I have articles in the Feminine Macabre
1819
01:38:50.329 --> 01:38:56.130
series in journals one, three, and five. So I talk
1820
01:38:56.189 --> 01:39:01.380
about cursed objects, particularly the rocks from the Bell Witch
1821
01:39:01.420 --> 01:39:04.680
Cave in the first journal. In the third one, I
1822
01:39:05.079 --> 01:39:08.819
talk about headless ghosts. And then in the fifth one,
1823
01:39:08.840 --> 01:39:13.430
I talk about Goatman, which reminds me, I wanted to
1824
01:39:13.569 --> 01:39:16.050
ask you, Steve, if you've heard of any Goatman stories
1825
01:39:16.149 --> 01:39:16.770
from Tennessee.
1826
01:39:18.840 --> 01:39:21.659
Not from Tennessee in particular, but let me look into
1827
01:39:21.720 --> 01:39:24.039
my research and I'll get back with you on that.
1828
01:39:24.119 --> 01:39:29.140
I did something about the goat man or goat men recently.
1829
01:39:29.699 --> 01:39:32.359
Bart Nunley wrote a thing for me and I narrated
1830
01:39:32.399 --> 01:39:35.430
it for a project I had called Weird World. But
1831
01:39:35.689 --> 01:39:37.909
I've got some other stuff. Let me look and see.
1832
01:39:40.029 --> 01:39:42.729
Just everything you mentioned there is something that I've looked
1833
01:39:42.770 --> 01:39:46.220
into at one time or another. You mentioned the Bell Witch. Now,
1834
01:39:46.279 --> 01:39:48.220
growing up in East Tennessee, that was a big deal
1835
01:39:48.260 --> 01:39:50.920
for me. Not as much as it was for kids
1836
01:39:50.979 --> 01:39:54.000
in Middle Tennessee. But I told you a story that
1837
01:39:54.039 --> 01:39:57.380
you'd never heard about a Bloody Mary type game that
1838
01:39:57.420 --> 01:39:59.600
we played in grade school that was based on the
1839
01:39:59.649 --> 01:40:02.649
Bell Witch. And it worked kind of the same. You
1840
01:40:02.659 --> 01:40:05.470
went into a darkened bathroom and you peered into the mirror.
1841
01:40:06.210 --> 01:40:08.289
And instead of saying Bloody Mary three times, you said,
1842
01:40:08.369 --> 01:40:11.250
I don't believe in the Bell Witch three times. She
1843
01:40:11.270 --> 01:40:13.090
would supposedly come out of the mirror and scratch you
1844
01:40:13.149 --> 01:40:15.449
on the face and I was at a kid party
1845
01:40:15.560 --> 01:40:18.560
one time, somebody's birthday party. I was maybe eight, nine
1846
01:40:18.579 --> 01:40:21.359
years old. Little girl went in the bathroom, did that.
1847
01:40:21.479 --> 01:40:24.039
Sure enough, she came running out screaming, had three scratches
1848
01:40:24.119 --> 01:40:29.010
on her face. Now, probably self-inflicted, but it scared the
1849
01:40:29.050 --> 01:40:31.369
pants off all the little kids at that party anyway.
1850
01:40:32.050 --> 01:40:34.670
Well, sure. Yeah, you definitely don't want to mess with
1851
01:40:34.689 --> 01:40:36.130
the Bell Witch. That's for sure.
1852
01:40:37.489 --> 01:40:39.989
And I also told you the story about how the
1853
01:40:40.029 --> 01:40:42.720
library book at the big library in Knoxville was perpetually
1854
01:40:42.779 --> 01:40:45.949
checked out. You couldn't find, I can't remember the name
1855
01:40:45.970 --> 01:40:48.810
of the book. It was one of the preeminent Bell
1856
01:40:48.850 --> 01:40:53.409
Witch books. And the story that was told when it
1857
01:40:53.529 --> 01:40:57.050
finally did come back after a couple of years, it
1858
01:40:57.109 --> 01:41:00.609
was said that then it was in the special collections.
1859
01:41:00.670 --> 01:41:02.569
You could only look at it there at the library,
1860
01:41:02.949 --> 01:41:05.840
probably because it was a rare book. But the story
1861
01:41:05.880 --> 01:41:08.539
that was told on the playground was that when they
1862
01:41:08.600 --> 01:41:10.859
finally found it, the guy that had checked it out
1863
01:41:11.119 --> 01:41:13.359
for a couple of years said, was found dead in
1864
01:41:13.399 --> 01:41:15.199
his bed, and that was what he was reading, and
1865
01:41:15.239 --> 01:41:16.869
he had been there for some time, nothing but a
1866
01:41:16.909 --> 01:41:20.090
skeleton left, but they returned the book to the library,
1867
01:41:20.130 --> 01:41:22.069
and that's why nobody could check it out, because it
1868
01:41:22.109 --> 01:41:22.649
was cursed.
1869
01:41:23.829 --> 01:41:24.909
That's quite a story.
1870
01:41:24.930 --> 01:41:29.590
Made for interesting playground fodder. That would be a book
1871
01:41:29.649 --> 01:41:34.649
right there, Strange Things on the Playground, and people recount
1872
01:41:34.689 --> 01:41:38.420
their stuff they heard as kids. I've done stuff about
1873
01:41:38.479 --> 01:41:42.050
urban legends, and stories from a friend of a friend,
1874
01:41:42.449 --> 01:41:45.399
gospel truth. Oh, no, that really happened. It happened to
1875
01:41:45.409 --> 01:41:53.640
our neighbor's cousin's uncle's nephew. Right. But nothing shattered my world.
1876
01:41:54.100 --> 01:41:59.000
John Harold Brunvond, I think he's a professor of folklore
1877
01:41:59.100 --> 01:42:02.300
and mythology somewhere in Utah. He put out a book
1878
01:42:02.439 --> 01:42:04.779
in the 70s called The Vanishing Hitchhiker was the first one.
1879
01:42:04.819 --> 01:42:08.899
He did a series of books. And a lot of
1880
01:42:08.920 --> 01:42:12.020
those stories, I'd heard those as gospel truth growing up. No, no,
1881
01:42:12.079 --> 01:42:14.630
that happened to my cousin. No, that one happened to
1882
01:42:14.689 --> 01:42:16.890
a friend of a lady that does my mom's hair.
1883
01:42:17.750 --> 01:42:20.909
These stories happen, but they didn't. And, you know, they
1884
01:42:21.329 --> 01:42:25.810
served as cautionary tales and kept me out of some
1885
01:42:25.850 --> 01:42:27.680
trouble probably, you know, kept me out of the lake
1886
01:42:27.739 --> 01:42:30.579
because of water moccasins or kept me from going to
1887
01:42:30.600 --> 01:42:33.399
the bathroom at Walmart because some kid was mutilated in
1888
01:42:33.420 --> 01:42:37.350
there as part of a gang initiation. Full runner to Walmart.
1889
01:42:37.449 --> 01:42:39.479
We had a local store there in Knoxville. I think
1890
01:42:39.520 --> 01:42:43.560
it was local called Walmart, A-L-M-A-R-T. And the story was
1891
01:42:43.609 --> 01:42:47.420
that the kid, it was around his eighth birthday. He
1892
01:42:47.439 --> 01:42:49.420
had gone to the, wanted to go to the bathroom
1893
01:42:49.439 --> 01:42:51.060
by himself. He said, mom, I'm too big to go
1894
01:42:51.079 --> 01:42:52.880
to the ladies room with you. I'll go by myself.
1895
01:42:53.520 --> 01:42:55.359
So she stands there, waits on him. He goes to
1896
01:42:55.380 --> 01:42:59.199
the bathroom. He's gone, gone, gone, gone. Never comes out.
1897
01:42:59.300 --> 01:43:01.680
Instead of going and looking for him, next person, the
1898
01:43:01.720 --> 01:43:03.619
next male that starts. And she said, sir, would you
1899
01:43:03.640 --> 01:43:05.880
tell me if there's a, little boy in there and
1900
01:43:05.899 --> 01:43:08.460
describes him guy goes in he comes running back out
1901
01:43:08.479 --> 01:43:11.359
he said lady um you better get in there with
1902
01:43:11.399 --> 01:43:12.819
him i'm going to go up front and ask him
1903
01:43:12.859 --> 01:43:15.979
to call an ambulance and as part of a gang
1904
01:43:16.000 --> 01:43:18.859
initiation and she had mentioned earlier in the story that
1905
01:43:18.899 --> 01:43:21.319
she saw three dirty looking boys come out of there
1906
01:43:21.390 --> 01:43:24.970
three uh trashy looking boys come out well they've been
1907
01:43:25.010 --> 01:43:27.869
part of a gang and as part of initiation they
1908
01:43:28.050 --> 01:43:32.090
uh castrated this little boy oh my goodness through his
1909
01:43:32.729 --> 01:43:34.750
member in the parking lot where it was run over
1910
01:43:34.810 --> 01:43:37.189
by a car and couldn't be saved. He had to
1911
01:43:37.250 --> 01:43:41.069
have a sexual reassignment surgery and change schools. But I
1912
01:43:41.109 --> 01:43:43.989
heard that as a kid and believed every single word
1913
01:43:44.060 --> 01:43:46.260
of it. I was in there with my parents one time.
1914
01:43:46.720 --> 01:43:48.579
I had to go to the bathroom. I couldn't even
1915
01:43:48.640 --> 01:43:51.840
find my mom and dad. So instead of Raven, this
1916
01:43:51.859 --> 01:43:54.939
was the Walmart on Clinton Highway. Instead of going in
1917
01:43:54.979 --> 01:43:57.760
there by myself, I went outside around the building to
1918
01:43:57.800 --> 01:44:00.300
around in the back in the dark and peed on
1919
01:44:00.340 --> 01:44:06.569
the wall. much more danger back there. But yeah, that
1920
01:44:06.609 --> 01:44:08.930
was so ingrained in my head that I'm not going
1921
01:44:08.949 --> 01:44:10.369
to go to the bathroom in there. I know what
1922
01:44:10.409 --> 01:44:12.550
happens in there. I'll go outside and pee by the dumpster.
1923
01:44:14.810 --> 01:44:17.539
But again, that book, that story was in there that
1924
01:44:17.579 --> 01:44:19.380
I think the severed penis was the name of it.
1925
01:44:19.439 --> 01:44:22.680
But again, I heard that as gospel truth and believed it.
1926
01:44:23.380 --> 01:44:25.600
And the one about the Avon lady that wasn't an
1927
01:44:25.659 --> 01:44:28.659
Avon lady, that was a, a man in a dress
1928
01:44:28.720 --> 01:44:30.800
and in his Avon sample bag, he had a hatchet
1929
01:44:30.840 --> 01:44:32.720
and a hank of rope and some handcuffs, you know,
1930
01:44:32.779 --> 01:44:33.800
and all that.
1931
01:44:33.899 --> 01:44:35.180
Oh my goodness.
1932
01:44:35.239 --> 01:44:38.890
The beauty shop, the beauty parlor. And back in my day,
1933
01:44:38.899 --> 01:44:41.850
in the late sixties, early seventies, a lot of women,
1934
01:44:41.869 --> 01:44:44.029
particularly in our community in East Tennessee, they would have
1935
01:44:44.069 --> 01:44:47.229
those shops in their basement. Not only did they make
1936
01:44:47.270 --> 01:44:49.310
a few extra bucks doing hair, but they got all
1937
01:44:49.350 --> 01:44:53.970
the neighborhood gossip. I heard similar stories from both. My
1938
01:44:54.109 --> 01:44:56.350
mom got her hair done, two different ladies because they
1939
01:44:56.390 --> 01:45:01.029
were both friends. her friend, so she alternated, but heard
1940
01:45:01.069 --> 01:45:04.350
those stories at both beauty shops when I would tag
1941
01:45:04.369 --> 01:45:06.409
along and sit in one of the dryer chairs while
1942
01:45:06.470 --> 01:45:09.550
my mom was getting a permanent. But again, I grew up,
1943
01:45:09.670 --> 01:45:12.449
and some of the others, the one about the kid
1944
01:45:12.489 --> 01:45:15.689
water skiing and running into a nest of water moccasins
1945
01:45:15.750 --> 01:45:17.680
and dying before they could get him out of the water.
1946
01:45:18.270 --> 01:45:21.399
My aunt from Alabama told that, that it happened to
1947
01:45:21.439 --> 01:45:23.659
a friend or a kid that her son went to
1948
01:45:23.699 --> 01:45:28.020
school with in Scottsboro, Alabama. Never happened. But again, there
1949
01:45:28.039 --> 01:45:31.640
was just such a part of childhood fears and things.
1950
01:45:32.500 --> 01:45:34.960
Yeah, that's what you were talking about. The book always
1951
01:45:35.000 --> 01:45:37.140
being checked out. It reminds me of the book that
1952
01:45:37.159 --> 01:45:39.619
was always checked out when I was in elementary school
1953
01:45:39.640 --> 01:45:45.479
was Scary Stories to Tell in the Dark. And that
1954
01:45:45.560 --> 01:45:48.350
one had very similar things. It had, well, all kinds
1955
01:45:48.390 --> 01:45:51.350
of scary stories, so to speak, but mostly urban legends.
1956
01:45:51.409 --> 01:45:54.520
And so there were stories of like the spot you know,
1957
01:45:54.539 --> 01:45:56.720
where somebody had what looked like a pimple on their face,
1958
01:45:56.760 --> 01:46:01.239
but it was actually spider eggs had been nested on
1959
01:46:01.260 --> 01:46:02.970
their face, and then it would just explode, and there'd
1960
01:46:02.979 --> 01:46:03.739
be spiders everywhere.
1961
01:46:03.770 --> 01:46:07.069
Yeah, that was an urban legend, too, and the tale
1962
01:46:07.090 --> 01:46:09.550
that I heard from the 60s was it was a
1963
01:46:09.590 --> 01:46:12.869
bouffant hairdo. The girl had her hair piled up, and
1964
01:46:12.930 --> 01:46:15.109
rather than take it down, she just kept lacquering it
1965
01:46:15.149 --> 01:46:17.890
with hairspray until it was just a solid mass of hair,
1966
01:46:18.569 --> 01:46:22.340
and spiders got in there and laid eggs, and hatched
1967
01:46:22.439 --> 01:46:24.479
out and they were like eating into her brain or
1968
01:46:24.520 --> 01:46:27.460
something i don't know it was this frightening but yeah
1969
01:46:27.500 --> 01:46:30.590
that's another one of those oh it happened but it didn't.
1970
01:46:30.470 --> 01:46:35.710
Yeah yeah but learning tools trying to scare the kids.
1971
01:46:35.829 --> 01:46:38.369
Yeah and i'm just getting into the stories told in
1972
01:46:38.390 --> 01:46:40.670
the dark my wife's from that era she was born
1973
01:46:40.710 --> 01:46:44.119
in 85 and uh i've come to appreciate those in
1974
01:46:44.140 --> 01:46:47.220
the goosebumps series i never really paid much attention to
1975
01:46:47.279 --> 01:46:49.640
those but she was big into that so we've got
1976
01:46:49.659 --> 01:46:52.750
to a collection of R.L. Stine books going here.
1977
01:46:53.449 --> 01:46:54.569
That's pretty awesome.
1978
01:46:54.649 --> 01:46:58.470
And I loved the scholastic stuff when I was a kid. Mrs.
1979
01:46:58.489 --> 01:47:01.850
Coverlet's Magicians and what was the other one that I
1980
01:47:01.930 --> 01:47:06.489
absolutely adored? The Mad Scientist Club by Burton Brindley. And
1981
01:47:06.529 --> 01:47:12.619
that's just... Those books just spurred me on. And there
1982
01:47:12.640 --> 01:47:15.220
was a lot of spooky stuff back then, too. And
1983
01:47:15.239 --> 01:47:19.060
some of the trailer stuff with Frank Edwards' books. Strange World,
1984
01:47:19.119 --> 01:47:23.500
Stranger Than Science, Stranger Than Fiction. I read a lot
1985
01:47:23.539 --> 01:47:26.319
of those introductions to a lot of stuff within the
1986
01:47:26.340 --> 01:47:29.600
paranormal realm of supernatural for me. And everything in there
1987
01:47:29.619 --> 01:47:32.960
wasn't supernatural, so it was just strange. But those stories
1988
01:47:32.979 --> 01:47:36.159
had a way. The David Lang disappearance where the guy
1989
01:47:36.229 --> 01:47:39.609
was walking across a field and disappeared in full view
1990
01:47:39.649 --> 01:47:41.829
of his wife and children and the two guys in
1991
01:47:41.869 --> 01:47:44.229
a buggy coming up the road. That was the first
1992
01:47:44.270 --> 01:47:46.350
place I ever heard that was in a Frank Edwards book.
1993
01:47:46.430 --> 01:47:46.729
So....
1994
01:47:48.050 --> 01:47:48.750
Books are the key.
1995
01:47:48.770 --> 01:47:49.229
Yeah.
1996
01:47:49.270 --> 01:47:52.229
Books were always an escape for me. I didn't have
1997
01:47:52.289 --> 01:47:55.090
any friends, but I had a lot of books. Yeah.
1998
01:47:55.210 --> 01:47:59.180
We used to have this. We used to have this
1999
01:47:59.239 --> 01:48:02.319
program called Riff. Reading is fundamental.
2000
01:48:02.979 --> 01:48:03.319
Yeah.
2001
01:48:03.680 --> 01:48:08.060
And that's where I got introduced to a series called
2002
01:48:08.100 --> 01:48:11.470
the Bailey School Kids. And the first, the first book
2003
01:48:11.510 --> 01:48:12.909
that I picked up from that series happened to be
2004
01:48:12.949 --> 01:48:14.829
the first book from the series, luckily, but it was
2005
01:48:14.890 --> 01:48:18.220
called Vampires Don't Wear Polka Dots. And it follows these
2006
01:48:18.670 --> 01:48:22.279
kids that... uh every time there's like a new teacher
2007
01:48:22.300 --> 01:48:25.140
a new janitor or something they they have this theory
2008
01:48:25.180 --> 01:48:28.239
that they're a vampire another one's like ghosts don't eat
2009
01:48:28.279 --> 01:48:30.939
potato chips or whatever and um.
2010
01:48:31.279 --> 01:48:33.359
My wife's mentioned those too she's a fan of those
2011
01:48:33.399 --> 01:48:34.460
i need to read those.
2012
01:48:34.840 --> 01:48:37.750
They are so good I have like the first 20
2013
01:48:37.750 --> 01:48:40.029
some still from whenever I was a child. I've got
2014
01:48:40.050 --> 01:48:44.069
them on the shelf over here. But that also brought
2015
01:48:44.109 --> 01:48:45.729
me into that world because there was a Bigfoot one.
2016
01:48:45.770 --> 01:48:47.850
There was a werewolf one. There was a vampire one.
2017
01:48:47.890 --> 01:48:51.229
There was a goblin. I think there was even like, well,
2018
01:48:51.250 --> 01:48:55.130
I know there was a leprechaun one. But yeah, they
2019
01:48:55.170 --> 01:48:57.609
covered all kinds of things like that. And so I
2020
01:48:57.680 --> 01:48:59.609
read more of those than I did the Goosebumps series.
2021
01:48:59.720 --> 01:49:02.159
I did read Goosebumps, but I was into the Bailey
2022
01:49:02.180 --> 01:49:03.239
School Kids a little bit more.
2023
01:49:05.029 --> 01:49:09.189
And this was another touchstone for her. Are you afraid
2024
01:49:09.229 --> 01:49:11.170
of the dark? Did you watch those shows?
2025
01:49:11.449 --> 01:49:12.750
Yes. Yes, I did.
2026
01:49:14.149 --> 01:49:16.760
And in fact, that's one of the names she uses
2027
01:49:16.920 --> 01:49:23.680
on YouTube is Midnight Society. And that's how I first
2028
01:49:23.760 --> 01:49:26.220
noticed her when she was coming and listening to me.
2029
01:49:26.720 --> 01:49:29.079
That name stood out to me in the chat and
2030
01:49:29.100 --> 01:49:31.600
it just kind of went from there. But we watched
2031
01:49:31.649 --> 01:49:33.770
those and I'm a big fan. I watched them as
2032
01:49:33.829 --> 01:49:38.260
an adult. I was in college, but I love those shows.
2033
01:49:38.359 --> 01:49:41.380
And DJ McHale, who wrote a lot of those and
2034
01:49:41.579 --> 01:49:43.520
a lot of them under a pen name because he
2035
01:49:43.539 --> 01:49:45.899
didn't want his name all over everything. He's a friend
2036
01:49:45.939 --> 01:49:47.760
of mine. I'm going to have him on the show sometime.
2037
01:49:48.460 --> 01:49:51.619
He influenced a whole generation of kids there and for
2038
01:49:51.640 --> 01:49:54.460
a kid's show. And you'll see if you agree here.
2039
01:49:54.479 --> 01:49:58.100
That was some of the scariest stuff ever on television. Yeah.
2040
01:49:58.520 --> 01:50:00.699
Yeah. They did a good job with it. That's for sure.
2041
01:50:03.630 --> 01:50:06.390
And I'd like to talk to R.L. Stine, too. I've
2042
01:50:06.489 --> 01:50:10.600
got some juvenile fiction that's heard in the works. And
2043
01:50:11.520 --> 01:50:14.920
my wife's working on a book, too, in that same vein.
2044
01:50:15.060 --> 01:50:18.600
And it's going to be a lot of fun. And
2045
01:50:19.119 --> 01:50:21.300
I love the idea of writing for kids. But I just,
2046
01:50:21.800 --> 01:50:23.739
I don't know. I turned 60 last year. I don't
2047
01:50:23.760 --> 01:50:25.420
know if I'm so far out of touch that I
2048
01:50:25.460 --> 01:50:28.829
couldn't write for this generation of kids. But I'd like
2049
01:50:28.869 --> 01:50:30.710
to give it a try. Right.
2050
01:50:30.930 --> 01:50:34.439
I think you should do it. I support this wholeheartedly.
2051
01:50:34.899 --> 01:50:39.560
Okay. Well, thank you. But now you mentioned the weird
2052
01:50:39.600 --> 01:50:42.420
writer blog. There was some of your articles over there
2053
01:50:42.460 --> 01:50:44.600
that I wanted you to do for 13 past midnight.
2054
01:50:44.680 --> 01:50:48.649
And you did, thankfully. Are you still right for that?
2055
01:50:48.659 --> 01:50:50.189
Does Heather still do that? I've been out of the
2056
01:50:50.229 --> 01:50:52.449
loop on a lot of this peripheral stuff for a while.
2057
01:50:52.489 --> 01:50:53.609
I'm not sure what's going on.
2058
01:50:54.989 --> 01:50:56.949
No, I haven't written for Shannon in a while.
2059
01:50:57.869 --> 01:50:59.270
Did I say Heather? I meant Shannon.
2060
01:50:59.310 --> 01:50:59.510
Yeah.
2061
01:50:59.970 --> 01:51:00.409
Yeah.
2062
01:51:00.449 --> 01:51:04.609
That's okay. She... She basically got to a point where
2063
01:51:04.649 --> 01:51:07.529
she was like, listen, you need to start writing for
2064
01:51:07.569 --> 01:51:11.850
yourself and get more things out there. Quit writing for me.
2065
01:51:11.869 --> 01:51:21.149
One that particularly stands out is Witches and Silver Bullets. Yes.
2066
01:51:21.180 --> 01:51:22.350
Do you remember that one?
2067
01:51:22.380 --> 01:51:22.649
Yes.
2068
01:51:23.060 --> 01:51:25.960
And I think you narrated that one as well. I did.
2069
01:51:26.079 --> 01:51:30.220
I'd always heard about the silver bullet as a way
2070
01:51:30.239 --> 01:51:33.159
to fend off the wolf man. But I'd never heard
2071
01:51:33.180 --> 01:51:36.260
of it being used against witches. So that was educational
2072
01:51:36.279 --> 01:51:36.640
for me.
2073
01:51:37.880 --> 01:51:41.890
Yeah, yeah. I had found a lot of that in
2074
01:51:42.750 --> 01:51:46.109
Patrick Gaynor's Witches, Ghosts, and Signs. There are stories in
2075
01:51:46.149 --> 01:51:48.670
there about the silver bullet. And even in the Bell
2076
01:51:48.710 --> 01:51:51.310
Witch story, there was a guy who claimed to be
2077
01:51:51.350 --> 01:51:53.199
a witch hunter and came in with a silver bullet,
2078
01:51:53.479 --> 01:51:56.670
waving it around, saying, that he could handle the witch.
2079
01:51:57.050 --> 01:51:58.989
And of course she put him to shame and had
2080
01:51:59.010 --> 01:52:04.539
him running out crying. But, uh, yeah, it is something,
2081
01:52:04.579 --> 01:52:06.899
like you said, most people think about it's keeping the
2082
01:52:06.939 --> 01:52:10.539
werewolves away, but, uh, witches are, are known to be,
2083
01:52:10.699 --> 01:52:12.680
that's one of their weaknesses are the silver bullets.
2084
01:52:13.680 --> 01:52:16.140
My granny used garlic. And even though she was a
2085
01:52:16.159 --> 01:52:19.199
self-proclaimed witch, there were other witches that she didn't want
2086
01:52:19.229 --> 01:52:22.630
anything to do with. Um, and the old farmhouse she
2087
01:52:22.670 --> 01:52:25.829
lived in, old Victorian farmhouse had the old, uh, keyholes
2088
01:52:26.069 --> 01:52:28.109
in the doors and she would put a clove of
2089
01:52:28.170 --> 01:52:30.529
garlic in there to keep witches from coming through the
2090
01:52:30.609 --> 01:52:32.229
keyhole have you ever heard anything like.
2091
01:52:32.109 --> 01:52:35.829
That yeah well not putting garlic in there but definitely
2092
01:52:35.869 --> 01:52:38.439
heard about them coming through the keyhole and shape-shifting into
2093
01:52:38.489 --> 01:52:40.569
like black cats and things like that to get into
2094
01:52:40.909 --> 01:52:41.329
they could.
2095
01:52:41.220 --> 01:52:45.060
Come down the fireplace too and um what was the
2096
01:52:45.100 --> 01:52:47.359
other thing she used to do uh now of course
2097
01:52:47.399 --> 01:52:49.680
when anybody died they hung a cloth over the mirror
2098
01:52:49.720 --> 01:52:51.340
but that was to keep the spirit from getting trapped
2099
01:52:51.380 --> 01:52:54.770
in the house um their porches the the feeling of
2100
01:52:54.810 --> 01:52:56.800
the porch, the roof of the porch, the underneath of
2101
01:52:56.840 --> 01:52:59.420
it anyway, was always painted haint blue. Have you ever
2102
01:52:59.439 --> 01:53:00.819
heard the story behind that?
2103
01:53:01.699 --> 01:53:01.939
Yes.
2104
01:53:02.840 --> 01:53:05.399
That a spirit coming up to enter the house up
2105
01:53:05.420 --> 01:53:07.439
to no good would look up and see that and
2106
01:53:07.479 --> 01:53:09.340
think it was the sky and fly up through the
2107
01:53:09.560 --> 01:53:13.239
porch roof and be gone. Must have worked because I
2108
01:53:13.270 --> 01:53:19.949
don't think her house was haunted. But I really enjoy
2109
01:53:19.970 --> 01:53:23.229
a lot of the folklore and stuff that particularly from
2110
01:53:23.250 --> 01:53:25.409
the Southern Appalachians. I mean, that's where I grew up,
2111
01:53:25.449 --> 01:53:28.220
but it sounds like there's parts of that in the
2112
01:53:28.300 --> 01:53:31.399
Appalachians that are close to you there too, the Northern part.
2113
01:53:32.239 --> 01:53:32.579
Oh yeah.
2114
01:53:33.199 --> 01:53:33.460
Yeah.
2115
01:53:33.520 --> 01:53:36.500
It's definitely been interesting to look at some of the
2116
01:53:36.579 --> 01:53:39.560
overlap between the Northern and the Southern Appalachians and our stories.
2117
01:53:40.319 --> 01:53:44.239
It's just that it seems like there was a higher
2118
01:53:44.279 --> 01:53:48.460
degree of storytelling in general in the Southern Appalachians, if
2119
01:53:48.500 --> 01:53:52.020
that makes sense. And that seems to be written down more,
2120
01:53:52.260 --> 01:53:56.020
at least, officially written down more in books than there
2121
01:53:56.039 --> 01:53:59.510
were in the Northern Appalachians. And I find that kind
2122
01:53:59.550 --> 01:53:59.970
of sad.
2123
01:54:00.430 --> 01:54:02.989
And I attribute that to people like, uh, you may
2124
01:54:03.010 --> 01:54:04.310
have never heard of him, but there was a guy
2125
01:54:04.369 --> 01:54:07.710
in Knoxville that wrote in the paper named Bert Vincent
2126
01:54:07.770 --> 01:54:10.029
and he had a column on Sundays. I think it
2127
01:54:10.050 --> 01:54:13.170
was like just walking about or something like that. He
2128
01:54:13.210 --> 01:54:15.590
had two volumes out of, uh, there was a little
2129
01:54:15.609 --> 01:54:17.130
bit of everything in there, but there was a lot
2130
01:54:17.170 --> 01:54:20.369
of hate and booger and witch tales from the Smokies
2131
01:54:20.409 --> 01:54:23.590
in that area. And, uh, had both those books growing up,
2132
01:54:23.649 --> 01:54:26.760
had them around the house, an autographed copy of one
2133
01:54:26.800 --> 01:54:29.590
of them that my mom had picked up somewhere. But, um,
2134
01:54:30.079 --> 01:54:32.279
it was just a part of that, the oral tradition
2135
01:54:32.319 --> 01:54:35.140
and the written tradition. You had people like him, uh,
2136
01:54:35.180 --> 01:54:38.170
look for him on Amazon. Anybody that's interesting, Bert Vincent,
2137
01:54:39.270 --> 01:54:43.989
columnist for the Knoxville News Sentinel. And, um, another person
2138
01:54:44.010 --> 01:54:47.250
that kind of carried that on was, uh, and I
2139
01:54:47.289 --> 01:54:51.729
can't remember the guy's name now, Sam, Sam, somebody, uh,
2140
01:54:51.979 --> 01:54:53.779
Handful of Thumbs and Two Left Feet is the name
2141
01:54:53.819 --> 01:55:00.319
of his book. But he wrote that column later. And
2142
01:55:00.399 --> 01:55:02.090
Bird had picked it up from, I think, Carson Brewer
2143
01:55:02.149 --> 01:55:05.050
or somebody like that. But that opened a lot of tales.
2144
01:55:05.090 --> 01:55:08.550
Of course, the Foxfire books. I think it's Foxfire Volume
2145
01:55:08.550 --> 01:55:10.619
2 that has the Hanes and witches and stuff in it.
2146
01:55:11.329 --> 01:55:11.869
That was always.
2147
01:55:11.890 --> 01:55:13.970
It's on my shelf right now. I'm looking right at it.
2148
01:55:13.989 --> 01:55:18.289
Yeah, love that one. And, of course, Charles Edwin Price.
2149
01:55:19.310 --> 01:55:21.369
was from the South, and he wrote a lot about
2150
01:55:21.630 --> 01:55:26.090
little towns in particular. Haunted Jonesboro, Haunted Knoxville, Haunted Nashville.
2151
01:55:27.310 --> 01:55:29.909
His canon of works, I think he's passed on now.
2152
01:55:30.560 --> 01:55:35.500
But anybody that's interested in Southern hauntings, his books will
2153
01:55:35.520 --> 01:55:39.399
serve you well. And then, of course, was it 13
2154
01:55:39.399 --> 01:55:43.100
Alabama Ghosts and Jeffrey? I can't remember the lady's name,
2155
01:55:43.119 --> 01:55:47.989
but she did Alabama, Georgia, I think Tennessee, too. And
2156
01:55:48.050 --> 01:55:50.630
Jeffrey was her resident ghost, but she wrote a lot
2157
01:55:50.649 --> 01:55:54.670
of those tales out. And then, of course, in historic Jonesboro, Tennessee,
2158
01:55:54.689 --> 01:55:56.989
you have to say that historic part. They're proud of that.
2159
01:55:57.670 --> 01:56:01.520
They have the International Storytelling Convention in October. I've been
2160
01:56:01.560 --> 01:56:05.539
there in the audience, but I've never been there as
2161
01:56:05.560 --> 01:56:08.960
a participant. But that is some fun to hear those
2162
01:56:09.020 --> 01:56:12.819
stories come to life from good storytellers. I bet.
2163
01:56:13.159 --> 01:56:15.359
That sounds like a great place to go.
2164
01:56:16.350 --> 01:56:19.060
Now, we talked about the Bell Witch Cave. We're almost
2165
01:56:19.119 --> 01:56:21.939
out of time here. But have you ever visited the
2166
01:56:21.979 --> 01:56:23.720
Bell Witch Cave or the grounds there?
2167
01:56:24.500 --> 01:56:27.100
Yes, yes. I've been down to Adams, Tennessee a couple times.
2168
01:56:27.579 --> 01:56:29.199
The first time that I went down, I actually wasn't
2169
01:56:29.239 --> 01:56:31.300
able to go to the cave because there had been
2170
01:56:31.319 --> 01:56:33.699
torrential downpours and the cave floods.
2171
01:56:33.760 --> 01:56:36.380
The Red River floods like you wouldn't believe right there.
2172
01:56:36.970 --> 01:56:39.670
But yeah, Chris Kirby, the owner, her husband owned that.
2173
01:56:39.689 --> 01:56:42.409
She's a friend of mine. And the first time that
2174
01:56:42.489 --> 01:56:46.449
I went... There was nobody there. We got like a
2175
01:56:46.489 --> 01:56:51.569
personal tour. She's got photographs. Back then, this was in
2176
01:56:51.590 --> 01:56:54.409
the early 90s, she had a couple of photo albums
2177
01:56:54.449 --> 01:56:56.069
full of pictures that she had taken and full of
2178
01:56:56.130 --> 01:56:59.359
pictures that people had sent back of anomalous stuff down there.
2179
01:57:00.319 --> 01:57:03.060
I had my first digital camera, an old Kodak, had
2180
01:57:03.100 --> 01:57:05.779
like half a megapixel, I think. But I got some
2181
01:57:05.800 --> 01:57:10.140
weird pictures there too. But if anybody has an interest
2182
01:57:10.180 --> 01:57:13.479
in that at all, it's worth checking out, certainly. Absolutely.
2183
01:57:13.520 --> 01:57:16.909
Absolutely. Yeah. When I was there and actually got to
2184
01:57:16.930 --> 01:57:18.750
go to the cave, it was a similar situation. I
2185
01:57:19.210 --> 01:57:21.449
had to wait for more people to show up for
2186
01:57:21.470 --> 01:57:24.010
them to do a tour. So I sat with Chris
2187
01:57:24.050 --> 01:57:25.970
and talked with her for probably an hour or two
2188
01:57:26.010 --> 01:57:28.689
hours before enough people showed up and they're like, okay,
2189
01:57:28.729 --> 01:57:29.729
now we can go into the cave.
2190
01:57:31.369 --> 01:57:32.949
She had a couple of little books that she sold.
2191
01:57:33.010 --> 01:57:35.489
I bought those. And then it's before she had to
2192
01:57:35.529 --> 01:57:37.850
gift shop. And we sat out there, there was like
2193
01:57:37.890 --> 01:57:40.069
a gazebo or a picnic table or something up there.
2194
01:57:40.449 --> 01:57:42.449
And she showed me all of these pictures and, And
2195
01:57:42.470 --> 01:57:44.850
then talked about all the stuff that people have taken
2196
01:57:45.050 --> 01:57:45.789
that's come back.
2197
01:57:46.609 --> 01:57:49.529
Yeah. Yep, exactly. That's where you get into the cursed objects,
2198
01:57:49.569 --> 01:57:52.500
the rocks and things. And even now, now what she
2199
01:57:52.520 --> 01:57:55.520
does is she'll get porcelain dolls and paint them up
2200
01:57:55.539 --> 01:57:58.840
to look like zombies or something grotesque and sell them.
2201
01:57:59.460 --> 01:58:01.529
And they're getting sent back now as well.
2202
01:58:01.529 --> 01:58:04.159
That way she can just sell them again. Kidding. Yeah,
2203
01:58:04.159 --> 01:58:05.640
that's exactly what she does.
2204
01:58:05.640 --> 01:58:07.119
She said a lot of times.
2205
01:58:06.800 --> 01:58:09.300
When they're not there and they lock the gate, she
2206
01:58:09.300 --> 01:58:11.279
said you come back and there would be a rock
2207
01:58:11.340 --> 01:58:13.039
or something with a note tied to it. Say, I
2208
01:58:13.079 --> 01:58:14.960
took this out of the cave. I'm sorry, please put
2209
01:58:15.000 --> 01:58:16.939
it back. It was near this place or that place.
2210
01:58:17.909 --> 01:58:19.649
And I get it. There's a lot of places like that.
2211
01:58:19.689 --> 01:58:23.489
Petrified Forest, other caves, Mammoth Cave. There's places where you
2212
01:58:23.550 --> 01:58:26.170
just don't take stuff because you might take home more
2213
01:58:26.210 --> 01:58:29.439
than you bargained with. The Troll Bridge outside of Portland, Oregon.
2214
01:58:30.010 --> 01:58:32.909
I've heard some weird stories about people that took troll
2215
01:58:32.930 --> 01:58:34.850
dolls from there. You're supposed to leave them, not take them.
2216
01:58:35.609 --> 01:58:35.710
Yeah.
2217
01:58:35.750 --> 01:58:38.930
But anyway, Heather, we're almost out of time for this episode.
2218
01:58:38.949 --> 01:58:41.220
Thank you for joining us here on Everything Out There.
2219
01:58:41.800 --> 01:58:43.420
Any parting words for the audience?
2220
01:58:44.939 --> 01:58:50.180
Well, thanks for having me. I've loved being here. Parting words. Man,
2221
01:58:50.199 --> 01:58:52.439
just stay weird. Stay weird.
2222
01:58:53.100 --> 01:58:56.060
Better weird than plastic. I love it. All right. And
2223
01:58:56.100 --> 01:58:58.039
I'll leave links to the show notes where you can
2224
01:58:58.060 --> 01:59:01.479
find Small Town Monsters. And again, Heather, thank you for
2225
01:59:01.520 --> 01:59:05.069
joining us. Go ahead and sign off here. Once again,
2226
01:59:05.090 --> 01:59:07.350
you've been listening to everything out there on the Clyde
2227
01:59:07.369 --> 01:59:11.000
Lewis Ground Zero Radio Network. I'm Steve Stockton. I'll see
2228
01:59:11.020 --> 01:59:12.939
you a little further on down the trail. Tell your
2229
01:59:12.979 --> 01:59:14.739
animals I said hi. Good night, everybody.
