WEBVTT
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830W by the way.
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8717 now.
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Here's your host.
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Mark Altman.
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Good afternoon, everybody, and welcome to the i Communicate Mindset Go Radio Show.
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I'm your host, Mark Altman.
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Happy to be back with you here on a Thursday afternoon.
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And I've got to tell you before we get started, I introduce our special guest.
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I have one request, everybody.
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I'm asking you to be mindful, and I'm hoping this show is a one-hour respite from the coronavirus because boy, it is just taking over the entire world right now.
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You can't look anywhere or hear anything without hearing somebody or something talking about the coronavirus.
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So I'm hoping this is an entertaining hour which allows you to take your mind off it.
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I feel very fortunate today.
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You know, this show is about how to be a more confident and effective communicator at work, home, in school, and certainly when competing in sports, which is a huge passion of mine.
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And we have a special guest today, former NFL referee Jim Tunney, who is uh great, I love that.
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Uh who is also uh known nickname, the dean of NFL referees, Jim, um has 30 years of experience as an educator, 31 years as an NFL referee.
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He works with Fortune 500 companies on team building, leadership, peak performance, motivation.
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He has written several books.
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And he has 29 postseason assignments, including 10 championship games and three Super Bowls.
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Jim, thank you so much for joining the show today.
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Mark, delighted to be with you.
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How are you thinking back in the Massachusetts area?
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Well, Jim, they're okay.
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They're not as warm as where you are out in sunny California, right?
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We're about in the mid-50s right now, but it's uh bright sunshine and uh no snow and uh very, very enjoyable.
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I love it.
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Now, Jim, before we get started today, I I saw I did some research on you before the show, and I've got to verify something.
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Were you the one that created the symbol for an extra point or field goal being good?
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Were you the one that created with the hands up in the air?
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No, I was uh everybody did that uh before I got in.
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But uh what was special to me was, and I don't know how it happened, but uh after a touchdown or a field goal or a trifle point, uh the referee turns the camera and signals hands overhead, and as I did it, I would raise my hands overhead with my fist closed, and as it got to the top, I would open my hands up.
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Okay, that's great.
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That uh somebody had pointed out that was unique, and nobody ever done that before.
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I don't know anybody does it now, but it uh it wasn't anything special.
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It was just one of those things I did.
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A natural occurrence for me.
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You know what's interesting, Jim?
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You know, um you've had such a successful career in so many different areas.
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And what's interesting to me about NFL officials, more so than the other sports, is you're you're they're very recognizable.
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I mean, their names are always on the TV, um, and and I feel like they're on TV so often during the game.
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Um was that an adjustment for you at all?
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Is becoming a recognized public figure?
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And and frankly, it's part two of my question is did it ever work against you when people recognized you?
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And not really against me.
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I can't get that out of the way right away.
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No, uh people occasionally will say, Well, you sure blew that call.
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And and you just laugh it off, and and and they don't sometimes don't really even see what you saw.
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Uh it's almost like the the trap accident where the blue car hit the white car, the white car at the blue car, and officials are looking at it in in very narrow seconds.
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They don't have a lot of time to think about it.
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Don't don't think don't let your thinking screw up the play.
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Just see what happened and and make the call.
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And you and it it it's worked out fine for me.
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The the other part of that of being recognized is is it it's amazing to me.
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I had a have a grandson who's at DePaul University right now, and and uh someone asked him his name and he said Ryland Ryland Tunney, and he said uh he said my grandfather, Jim Tunney, was a referee of the NFL for 30 years.
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He said, You are the grandson of Jim Tunney.
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I thought that that kind of thing blows me away.
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I I don't think people recognize it officially, but they surely do.
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That's right.
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Yeah.
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So so Jimmy, you know, I know when we talked previously, you share with me how you started out as a school teacher, eventually became a principal and then superintendent, and I know you had a huge passion as a to be a coach growing up.
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You know, one thing I think we ought none a lot of people don't really understand is what the path is like to become an official.
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You know, the hard work and and training you have to do.
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So could you educate us on what that road is like to eventually become an NFL official?
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I've been in sports all my life.
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I was uh my mom got mad at me because I won't late from dinner being on the playground all afternoon, and she'd say, six o'clock, hands washed, hair combed, and sitting at the table.
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Don't be late.
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So that that taught me about discipline and timing and things.
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But I wanted to be uh a coach.
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My dad was a coach.
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I never really thought I would follow his path, but I thought it's the thing I like to do is coach people.
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So when I went to college, I uh became a physical education major and I was a a teacher and a coach for a number of years and and uh then I moved into administration.
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I'm still coaching people.
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I was coaching people as a a principal, I was coaching the teachers to coach the kids, as a superintendent, I was coaching the principal to coach the teachers to coach the kids.
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My whole idea was being on the school ground.
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But when I went to school at lunchtime when the teacher had a carpeter and they all have have lunch, I would go and walk around the school ground and talk to the kids, and and they ask about the NFL and they ask about this or that.
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And that was my whole goal was to how can I help people become better at what they do.
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And that's why I left the school bus building and go into professional speaking, so now I can help associations and corporations uh communicate and talk about the people that I knew who were great communicators.
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I mean people like uh Vince Lombardi or uh Don Chu or Tom Landry or John Batten or Bill Walsh, people like that.
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I saw them communicate with their team to make their team successful and learned a lot from those people.
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So so Jim, you know, following up on that, you know, I'm an enormous Vince Lombardi fan, but just the names you mentioned, Landry and Lombardi and people like that, what are the th what are the commonalities that you saw that you would feel confident calling them a great communicator?
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What what are those characteristics that are your top tops on the list?
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Probably top of that list, Mark, would be uh they were honest with people.
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They were they they had a sense of integrity.
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Uh Tom Landry, Don Schuller, people like that were flat out honest.
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And they they were never trying to hurt you.
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They were being critical of you so that they could help you.
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And they were able to get that across to people to to their players that they're not trying to hurt them.
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I'm here to help you, but I've got to be honest with you.
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If you missed a block, you didn't do that, and you watched Vince Lombardi being a fan of his and do that famous drawing on Blackboard.
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We'll have a seal here and a seal here, and run right up any, you know, and and you can very well see what he's trying to get across.
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And all the players that I've talked to that played for Lombardi, the Barstars, the Jerry Kramers, the people like that, they really uh really well he was tough on him.
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I mean, really tough on him.
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They love that man.
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So, Jim, uh, and for for for our listeners, if you'd like to call in and have any questions for Jim Tunney, the number's 508-8717000.
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Jim, you know, one question I have for you, being from New England, uh we have we are in Patriot Nation.
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So question for you is two-part question, have you had any interactions with Bill Belichick?
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And if so, what what is your take on him relative to the Landry's and the and the uh Lombardi's and Shulas?
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When uh Coach Belichick was uh coaching in the league, he was an assistant.
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Uh I was I left the league in 1991, though Coach Belichick was still an assistant, so I never really had a great interaction with him as a head coach.
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And uh, of course they've had some difficulties with Spygate and with Deflay Gate and all that sort of thing.
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And uh I'm sorry that happened because I have a great respect for Coach Belichick and for Tom Brady, what they're doing.
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I don't know if they intentionally tried to cheat.
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I I'm not aware of all that.
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I'm just gonna read the papers and you only can believe half of what you read in the papers anyway.
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So I I I uh I I think they've done a great job creating a winning environment up there, and people love to play for him.
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So that's the part that gets me is that if you like playing for the coach, uh and not just because he's winning, but because he's the kind of guy you like playing for.
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Jim, let me ask you this.
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Speaking of cheating, you know, football has done a pretty good job staying away from cheating scandals, especially compared to baseball, and even in the NBA that had the uh point-shaving scandal uh back with the referee back then.
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Question for you is with with football moving to Las Vegas, with the Raiders moving to Las Vegas, do you have any concerns around the exposure to gambling and cheating with that move to Las Vegas?
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When I started in 1960, uh Pete Rosell became the commissioner that year.
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Uh Commissioner Rosell and I started in the NFL uh the same year, nineteen sixty.
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And we were not allowed as officials to go into Vegas for any reason.
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No teams were there.
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We weren't allowed to go into Vegas uh during the season because people would recognize you as you said earlier, they recognize you and you're an official, they and they try to get close to you.
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In fact, Art McDowell, who was our supervisor of officials for my twenty-seven of my thirty-one years, and uh Art McDowelly would would say, you know, you you you've got to avoid press, you've got to avoid the the confrontation with people who want to know, gee, is uh Joe Montana's re back really that bad?
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Is is only gonna be able to perform with the injuries he had, that type of thing.
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So you avoid it all the time.
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Uh when I think of integrity, uh Art McDowell does come to mind.
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Uh he was so honest.
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He was uh I said to many people, I would play poker over the phone with Art McDowell.
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Oh wow.
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He would never never teach you.
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And I I don't think that uh I I have a great respect for Koj Belichick and for Bob Kraft, uh the owner.
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Uh I remember when that uh spy gate happened and they were fined.
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I think a half million dollars for the team and two hundred and fifty thousand dollars for for uh for Koj Belichick.
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I'm not sure of the numbers.
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I remember a reporter came to Bob Kraft and said, Are you uh concerned about this?
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He said, No, he said, uh uh Commissioner is is responsible for integrity and he has to do that.
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And I said, Oh, wait a minute, Mr.
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Kraft.
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The commissioner is only the policeman.
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You are responsible for integrity.
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Indeed, indeed.
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Your players, your coaches are all responsible for the integrity, and the commissioner is only there to be the the sheriff in town.
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When something goes wrong, he's gonna step in and and do something about it.
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So that's what I think about the NFL.
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I think every coach, every player, every official has got to be a hundred percent honest in what they do.
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Okay, Jim, stay with us.
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We'll be right back after the break.
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I'm Mark Altman for the i Communicate Radio Show.
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Now i Communicate continues on Full Service Radio at 830 W ARF.
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Once again, here's your host, Mark Hall.
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Welcome back, everybody, to iCommunicate.
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It is my privilege today to be with uh one of the most well-known officials in the history of sports, Jim Tunney.
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And uh, Jim, you know, I I I'd like to continue our conversation.
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And you know, one of the things I think about is when when you were a referee, an NFL referee, what what was your work week like?
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I mean, what were you doing while you were refing?
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How many hours a week were you, you know, preparing for the upcoming game and so on and so forth?
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How many hours are there in the week?
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I never get figure that out.
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Yeah I get at the school on Monday morning at uh about seven to seven fifteen in the morning before the classes start at eight o'clock.
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And I was there usually till six or six thirty at night, uh fighting the traffic in downtown Los Angeles.
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It better come in early and stay home stay late.
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Indeed.
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But I worked at school building Monday through Friday, and then Saturday morning I'd uh pack my bag Friday night, but Saturday morning I'd leave home Berlin and get a flight to drive to LA LAX and flight from Los Angeles to to Boston or Miami or Detroit or Green Bay, and then Sunday night after the game I get on a plane and I would fly from that location back to Los Angeles, get in around nine o'clock, go home, I get some sleep and be at a law be my school assignment on Monday morning at seven fifteen.
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So it's a seven day a week job.
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And uh from August to December.
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Uh we we has the playoffs in January, but it didn't go as long as the season goes now.
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But I was uh it was it was great for me.
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It it was a a tough time going, going, going, but uh I really enjoyed even staying Friday night at school at the school dance and then not getting home till nine or ten o'clock, maybe eleven eleven and get up early and go to the airport and fly out.
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I really enjoyed the change of pace getting on an airplane and the commissioner was always nice enough that at that time he was allowed to fly first class.
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So we were very nice, comfortable flying from from Los Angeles across the country.
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And it's five or six hours from New York or Boston and all the way back to Los Angeles.
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But I I really enjoyed that and I I would during that week I would always do something with the NFL, even though I was in a school building.
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Whether it was late afternoon or early evening or whatever I could seek the time, I would uh study the rules.
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In fact, in those days every official had a test to take every week and you had a written test of uh some twenty-five to fifty questions that you thought about something would happen about rules enforcement.
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And uh I would do that.
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So officials uh then were studying.
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Today they're studying all the time.
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Now with videotapes, when they finish the game, they get a videotape of the game on a disc and they put it in their their uh Microsoft edge and and and they're flying back there, they're looking at the game, reviewing the the plays and and answering questions that uh might have come up during the game.
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So it's a it's a full-time job.
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Well that's that's where I was going, Jim.
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You know, it's like you know, you you manage to study the rules.
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And by the way, a quick question before I ask my other question is if you didn't pass that test back in the day you had to take, what were the consequences of that?
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Did you not get to officiate?
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Well, no, when the uh official would c supervisor would call you and said, you know, you missed half the questions on the test and and you you gotta go back and review it.
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They they would just encourage you to review it and go back and take the test again.
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It was more of a quiz.
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It wasn't a matter of of qualifying you.
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You're already qualified.
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They just want to keep you sharp.
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That's what the point of the test was, not to try to qualify you or or re-qualify you.
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So, Jim, so so so my question for you is back in the day when you were flying out on a Saturday and flying back on a Sunday night, you managed to be, along with several of your colleagues, tremendous officials.
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Why why does it have to be a full-time job now?
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I mean, I understand the technology is great, but what's changed in the game where the amount of prep has to be so much more significant?
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Replay.
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Videotape replay has changed the game continually.
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When replay started in 1986, Mark, that's when replay first came in.
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It actually started in 1978, but took the owners eight years before they finally decided that yes to use the replay.
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Wow.
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Now it's gotten to the point where everything is reviewed, every little thing that step out of bounds and we would call it a pass incomplete, and you go back and look and yeah, he did get both feet down, but it is a completed pass.
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So you go back and review that.
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Now it's so technical on the review plate that uh i i it's it's tougher on officials today than it ever has been.
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But but the game has to change.
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Just don't have eleven cards on each side.
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You get four downs, you gotta make ten yards, you have a gold line on sort of thing, but the the technology of it and the thing that the fan sees at home in his living room on his widescreen TV that you're that you're seeing for maybe one or two seconds, and you have to make the call and and the replay goes over and over and over and you finally say, Yeah, that guy wasn't mountains, it was okay, but you saw it after four or five times, you agreed.
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The replay has changed the game tremendously.
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In terms of full-time officials, they tried that one time and it wasn't very successful.
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What do you do Monday through Friday if you're not working a game?
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Uh NBA and uh hockey and baseball, those officials will work several times a week.
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NFL, they only work once a week.
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And so Monday through Friday, you're sitting in the legal office in New York and you're looking at film, that may help you a little, but it's not going to help you improve your technique on the field.
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So, Jim, you know, I was researching an article written in 2008 where you were quoted, and the article was about scrutiny of officials and the accuracy of the calls.
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And back in the day in 2008, there was a stat in the article that said basically for every 100 plays, 97.64 percent of them are officiated correctly, and on average, uh officials make four mistakes a game.
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Uh and it got me to thinking uh uh are the expectations uh uh of fans just flat out unrealistic in the sense of you know, players are making mistakes in the game, they're throwing interceptions, they're dropping passes, coaches are making mistakes in the game.
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I'm sure they're all making four mistakes a game.
00:19:07.759 --> 00:19:10.559
So are the expectations just flat out unrealistic?
00:19:11.039 --> 00:19:12.559
There are two things about the fans.
00:19:12.720 --> 00:19:15.279
First of all, fans want their team to win.
00:19:15.920 --> 00:19:18.960
They don't care about fair play, they want their team to win.
00:19:19.119 --> 00:19:31.839
My definition of fan market for a long time has been a fan is a guy who sits in the 60th row of the stadium and criticizes me for not calling holding in the middle of the line of scrimmage.
00:19:31.920 --> 00:19:35.200
And when he goes to the parking lot, he can't find his car.
00:19:36.640 --> 00:19:37.680
That's great.
00:19:38.000 --> 00:19:42.240
So it it they we want their and we we want perfection too.
00:19:42.480 --> 00:19:44.480
Fisher wants to get every play right.
00:19:44.640 --> 00:19:46.960
Now, perfection is not really possible.
00:19:47.119 --> 00:19:53.759
A quarterback, if he's got a 50, 60 degree perfection in completion passes, he's a pretty good quarterback.
00:19:53.920 --> 00:19:57.359
But we can't run it on 50 or 60 percent accuracy.
00:19:57.519 --> 00:20:01.119
We've got to run on 100%, and sometimes we make a mistake.
00:20:01.359 --> 00:20:11.200
Four mistakes in a game with 156 plays every game, four mistakes, eh, not bad, but we'd like to make it three or two or one or none.
00:20:11.519 --> 00:20:16.000
So, so so Jim, one uh one last question about replay before we move past that.
00:20:16.240 --> 00:20:19.279
Do you do you see, you know, we're seeing it more in baseball now?
00:20:19.359 --> 00:20:23.440
They're talking about having a computerized strike zone and things like that.
00:20:23.599 --> 00:20:30.799
Do you see officials eventually being archaic and just simply not even being involved and replaced by technology?
00:20:31.039 --> 00:20:32.160
They have a game like that.
00:20:32.240 --> 00:20:34.160
It's called Madden 2020.
00:20:34.559 --> 00:20:39.359
It's a video replay, and you can you can get that game and you can do all kinds of things with it.
00:20:39.599 --> 00:20:42.559
I hope it never gets away from a a people game.
00:20:42.720 --> 00:20:46.799
It's getting closer to being away from it now with all the replays.
00:20:46.960 --> 00:20:51.039
I I I hope it doesn't get to a point where we're doing everything on the replay.
00:20:51.200 --> 00:20:52.400
That's not the football game.
00:20:52.480 --> 00:20:53.599
The game is people.
00:20:53.839 --> 00:20:58.240
And we're people and they're people, and it does happen that you're gonna make a mistake.
00:20:58.559 --> 00:21:00.079
Coach have told me for years.
00:21:00.319 --> 00:21:08.079
So a mistake is made, so we'll next time it'll the the the ball bounce in our favor and we'll get the break.
00:21:08.319 --> 00:21:12.799
Jim, do you do don't worry about the ones that go against you, but just play the game and bounce back.
00:21:12.960 --> 00:21:19.839
And and this is one of the things that I've talked to people uh in the in the corporate world about uh in sales or management.
00:21:20.240 --> 00:21:22.000
Don't worry about a thing that makes a mistake.
00:21:22.160 --> 00:21:22.720
Move on.
00:21:22.960 --> 00:21:23.839
Forget about that.
00:21:24.000 --> 00:21:27.279
Learn from it, but forget about that and sales.
00:21:27.359 --> 00:21:29.759
If you don't make the sale, why didn't you make the sale?
00:21:30.000 --> 00:21:31.599
Well, here's a reason for it.
00:21:31.759 --> 00:21:33.200
Let's see if we can improve.
00:21:33.440 --> 00:21:40.240
I think uh players and coaches learn a lot more from mistakes that are made during a game than from the things they do right.
00:21:40.319 --> 00:21:44.960
They made a nice long pass and everything, but they made a pass that was incomplete.
00:21:45.119 --> 00:21:46.480
How can we improve that?
00:21:46.640 --> 00:21:53.200
So when you have a mistake made, you learn better from from your mistake than you do from just constantly being successful.
00:21:53.519 --> 00:21:59.839
Jim, you know, I think you articulated that so beautifully, and I find, and I I'd love to get your take on this, and I know you do a lot of work with companies.
00:22:00.960 --> 00:22:16.400
Why why is it so hard for uh professionals, A, to be accountable and own their mistakes, and B uh uh to take that kind of mindset, that growth mindset you're talking about, and embrace failure and learn from mistakes.
00:22:16.720 --> 00:22:19.359
What are you seeing as the challenge behind them doing those things?
00:22:20.000 --> 00:22:20.480
Ego.
00:22:21.200 --> 00:22:21.359
Yeah.
00:22:21.680 --> 00:22:27.039
Uh Ken Blanchard told me a long time ago, ego is edging God out.
00:22:27.599 --> 00:22:32.160
And and you've got to push your ego aside and be able to admit your mistake.
00:22:32.480 --> 00:22:43.759
When we have a mistake in a game that'd work and and Supervisor McNally would call me and say, You know, look at this play and and so on, so you made this and you should have been doing this.
00:22:43.920 --> 00:22:48.000
But what caused you to look here instead of there, trying to learn from it?
00:22:48.079 --> 00:22:50.240
And you've got to admit that, yeah, Mr.
00:22:50.400 --> 00:22:53.279
McNally, I I I did look at that a different way.
00:22:53.440 --> 00:22:54.880
I'll do it different next time.
00:22:55.200 --> 00:22:57.599
Learning from mistakes is what life is all about.
00:22:57.839 --> 00:23:03.119
And and of course Lombardi has been quoted so many times, failure is not getting knocked down.
00:23:03.359 --> 00:23:06.000
Failure is failure is not getting back up.
00:23:06.319 --> 00:23:15.039
So when you have a mistake, you've got to bounce back, move on, forget about it, learn from it, but don't carry it with you the whole time and think about the mistake.
00:23:15.200 --> 00:23:17.119
Think about what you can do to do it better.
00:23:17.839 --> 00:23:19.359
Words to live by indeed, Jim.
00:23:19.440 --> 00:23:23.039
So when we come back, when we come back, Jim joins us for the next segment.
00:23:23.200 --> 00:23:32.400
We're gonna talk more about his experience in corporate America, and we're gonna also talk about if and how he gets impacted by home crowds and the emotion during games.
00:23:32.880 --> 00:23:47.039
And Jim, you know, when we the other thing I'd like to cover when we come back is also uh kind of your expectations of communication um between coaches and yourself and between athletes yourself and where you share some latitude or offer latitude and where you don't.
00:23:47.200 --> 00:23:48.640
So we'll be back after the break.
00:23:48.880 --> 00:23:51.279
I'm with Jim Tunney, Dean of NFL referees.
00:23:51.440 --> 00:23:53.680
I'm your host, Mark Altman, for I communicate.
00:24:48.400 --> 00:24:50.240
Jim, I want to talk about emotion.
00:24:50.319 --> 00:24:55.519
And um one of my favorite things to work with people of all ages on is emotional intelligence.
00:24:55.680 --> 00:25:02.960
And I don't know if you heard, but uh four days ago in Massachusetts a hockey coach attacked a referee.
00:25:03.039 --> 00:25:04.480
Are you familiar with that video?
00:25:05.279 --> 00:25:07.279
I I saw it one time, I think yes.
00:25:07.839 --> 00:25:08.079
Okay.
00:25:08.480 --> 00:25:12.000
So, you know, you used to be a coach, you know, coach kids.
00:25:12.079 --> 00:25:21.759
And I'm just trying to understand from your perspective what what goes through the from a from uh boundaries from a barrier?
00:25:22.000 --> 00:25:23.519
What the heck happens to fans?
00:25:23.599 --> 00:25:29.599
I mean, I know they want to see their teams win, but how does how does it go from the crossing that kind of line in your mind?
00:25:29.920 --> 00:25:33.279
I think it helps you if you've been a coach and an official.
00:25:33.519 --> 00:25:37.920
I I was doing both at the same time at the high school level when I first started.
00:25:38.079 --> 00:25:48.559
And having been a coach, I can understand the emotion because I was an emotional guy on the on the bench as a coach too in high school basketball, and and you you do get excited.
00:25:48.720 --> 00:25:55.039
As a fish, you have to understand that coaches are gonna get excited, they're gonna do things and say things that they really don't mean.
00:25:55.200 --> 00:26:05.519
And don't don't take them personally, don't take the fact that they're they're they're saying the fact that your mother and father were never really married or whatever kind of words they use to describe.
00:26:06.160 --> 00:26:07.359
You have to understand that.
00:26:07.759 --> 00:26:09.359
You don't have to take it.
00:26:09.599 --> 00:26:12.000
You can walk over and just say, That's enough.
00:26:12.160 --> 00:26:16.240
Uh in fact, uh uh you mentioned earlier about the books that I've written.
00:26:16.400 --> 00:26:19.440
The first book I wrote was called Impartial Judgment.
00:26:19.680 --> 00:26:28.240
And I wanted to call the book uh because I don't care who wins, but the publisher in New York didn't like that title, so he called Impartial Judgment.
00:26:28.319 --> 00:26:39.519
I wrote a whole chapter on about John Madden and he called it Ode to a teddy bear because he was all over the place yelling and screaming and waving his hands and all that sort of thing.
00:26:39.680 --> 00:26:44.480
And John I had an understanding early on, he's been a good friend over the years.
00:26:44.559 --> 00:26:51.039
Uh we were in Los Angeles and he was very upset about a call right near the end of the first half.
00:26:51.200 --> 00:26:55.759
He came running on the field and grabbed me by the arm and was yelling, screaming.
00:26:56.000 --> 00:26:57.519
I stopped in my tracks.
00:26:57.680 --> 00:27:00.160
I was gonna I was right in the middle of the field.
00:27:00.319 --> 00:27:03.279
I said, Coach, leave the field right now.
00:27:03.599 --> 00:27:08.079
Right now, don't say anything else, or you're not coming back in the second half.
00:27:08.319 --> 00:27:11.519
And he left at the beginning of the second half as we're coming on the field.
00:27:11.680 --> 00:27:13.599
He grabbed Mary and said, I'm sorry.
00:27:13.680 --> 00:27:17.279
I said, you know, I just get emotional and I I didn't mean it and all that.
00:27:17.519 --> 00:27:18.720
I said, John, I understand.
00:27:19.200 --> 00:27:22.960
But you can't make a public display in front of 77,000 people.
00:27:23.200 --> 00:27:30.400
They think that they don't think you're inviting me for dinner, they're trying to trying to get on get on me on your side.
00:27:30.559 --> 00:27:34.559
And I I I just it it's it's knocking off sometimes.
00:27:34.799 --> 00:27:41.200
The thing about uh John when I wrote the first book and I wrote that chapter about John Madden owed to a teddy bear.
00:27:41.519 --> 00:27:44.960
Um, he said the thing, uh he said, Who are these guys?
00:27:45.119 --> 00:27:48.480
What kid grows up wanting to be an official for God's sake?
00:27:48.720 --> 00:27:51.680
And so uh John now always got along.
00:27:51.759 --> 00:27:58.240
He said the thing he said in the book, he said the thing I like about Tim Tunning is that he said he would come over and talk with you.
00:27:58.400 --> 00:28:00.400
And that's the thing about communication.
00:28:00.559 --> 00:28:02.400
Don't be afraid to talk to the coach.
00:28:02.559 --> 00:28:05.279
You don't have to stand there and let him berate you all the time.
00:28:05.519 --> 00:28:16.079
He may say a couple of things, and I've said to many coaches, including uh Tom Landry and including John Wooden when I did basketball at Pauling Pavilion, I'll say, That's enough.
00:28:16.319 --> 00:28:17.279
That's enough.
00:28:17.519 --> 00:28:18.720
And then walk away.
00:28:18.880 --> 00:28:26.960
And when you you say it with authority and look a right square in the eye and not being afraid of them, uh that helps you communicate.
00:28:27.200 --> 00:28:28.319
Communicate with people.
00:28:28.400 --> 00:28:39.279
So in communication, it's important you you're willing to talk to people and if they say something that is derogatory, uh let it go for a minute, but then you need to stop it after a while.
00:28:39.680 --> 00:28:45.839
Jim, I I know you do a lot of work with organizations on leadership and peak performance, and you've got me thinking as you were answering that.
00:28:46.160 --> 00:28:48.079
Let's talk about body language for a minute.
00:28:48.240 --> 00:29:11.920
You know, from your perspective, you know, we're taught to make eye contact and and have good posture and traditional body language, but I'm talking more about you know, when you when you do when you are assertive and say that's enough, you know, is it sometimes better just to to take eye contact away, or does the eye contact, you know, from a communication perspective in your world, is it better to make it towards the end or is it better to not make it towards the end?
00:29:12.319 --> 00:29:14.720
It it can b work both ways.
00:29:14.799 --> 00:29:20.880
Uh sometimes you don't need to go over to the coach, sometimes you need to just be on the field.
00:29:21.039 --> 00:29:24.079
But I call it I call it personal power.
00:29:24.319 --> 00:29:27.279
I call it personal power versus position power.
00:29:27.440 --> 00:29:30.640
You can't walk on the field with a referee and say, hey, you know who I am?
00:29:30.799 --> 00:29:35.119
I'm the referee, and I'm in charge of this game, and you better not step out of line.
00:29:35.519 --> 00:29:36.559
That's not gonna work.
00:29:36.720 --> 00:29:44.720
But personal power means that you can take some abuse to a point, to the point where it's it's the it's taking away the the element of the game.
00:29:44.880 --> 00:29:47.599
And then you need to shut it off and walk away.
00:29:47.759 --> 00:29:55.119
And that's the thing about football, you can walk out in the middle of the field sometimes in basketball, they're right there screaming and hollering and yelling at you.
00:29:55.279 --> 00:30:06.000
And when that happened to me, and I worked basketball for twenty five years at at the college level, I would I would go over near the coach when he was on the bench or screaming and hollering.
00:30:06.240 --> 00:30:09.359
I'd be right the closer you get to him, the less he yelled.
00:30:09.440 --> 00:30:11.920
When you're further away the more he yelled at you.
00:30:12.079 --> 00:30:16.319
And I thought, well, my personal power is I can I can handle it.
00:30:16.480 --> 00:30:20.319
He knows I can handle it, and I'll just shut it off by being close to him.
00:30:20.559 --> 00:30:33.440
So i it depends on the situation, but but feeling good about yourself and knowing you're doing the right thing and not listening to the the abuse that may be coming your way, just just shake it off and just keep on going.
00:30:33.759 --> 00:30:47.119
Jim, you know, I think one of the common uh assumptions about officiating is that officials get swept up by the emotion of the home crowd and you know, hence the home advantage and so c could you could you speak to a couple of things?
00:30:47.279 --> 00:31:01.519
First of all, you know, should we look at it as look, officials are human, it's possible from time to time it influences calls and they swept they're swept up, or was your point of view that you were very mindful and conscious to not let that happen?
00:31:01.759 --> 00:31:02.799
Where do you sit on that?
00:31:03.200 --> 00:31:04.799
Very mindful about it.
00:31:05.119 --> 00:31:13.680
In fact, uh in in terms of they call them homers and you call them in favor of the home crowd, and I never did like that expression.
00:31:13.839 --> 00:31:19.440
And then they say, well, now you call that one then, you call one of the little and you're evening it up.
00:31:20.319 --> 00:31:23.920
Evening up is like trying to even up your side buttons when you're shaving.
00:31:24.079 --> 00:31:26.880
You never quite get the same the same all the way.
00:31:27.039 --> 00:31:28.799
You can never even things up.
00:31:28.960 --> 00:31:30.079
Call it as it is.
00:31:30.240 --> 00:31:37.200
If it was a wrong call, you can't say, yeah, that was a wrong call, I'll take care of it the next the next quarter, I'll even it up.
00:31:37.279 --> 00:31:38.240
No, no, no, no.
00:31:38.400 --> 00:31:39.839
Don't try to ever even up.
00:31:39.920 --> 00:31:41.440
Just call it the way you see it.
00:31:41.519 --> 00:31:44.400
And call it and make the call and then move on.
00:31:44.559 --> 00:31:45.440
Don't worry about it.
00:31:45.519 --> 00:31:50.720
If you've called against this team that was a happen turn out to be a wrong call, it happens.
00:31:50.799 --> 00:31:51.839
It's gonna happen.
00:31:52.000 --> 00:31:53.599
And you can't worry about that.
00:31:53.680 --> 00:31:58.319
Uh players make mistakes, coaches make mistakes, officials go make mistakes.
00:31:58.559 --> 00:32:01.680
Jim, what do you see today when you watch officials on TV?
00:32:01.759 --> 00:32:04.160
Frankly, it could be in basketball, football, whatever.
00:32:04.400 --> 00:32:12.640
What do you see today that you'll you might see a certain behavior of an official that you're sitting at home scratching your head going, I can't believe they're doing that?
00:32:12.720 --> 00:32:15.359
What are some things you're seeing that scratch your head?
00:32:15.680 --> 00:32:19.039
You mentioned it earlier, Mark, it it's the body language.
00:32:19.200 --> 00:32:24.559
And and uh it's like giving a signal for a referee in in football.
00:32:24.799 --> 00:32:36.960
I was the trainer for the NFL for a few years, and I always said to the uh watching, particularly the referee, the guy on the white hat, the crew chief, the one who gives the signals on television, I said, the camera's gonna find you.
00:32:37.039 --> 00:32:53.759
Come over to a spot of the field, stand still, be together, and look right at the camera, look right at that red light on that camera, and look right into the guy sitting in his living room and say, holding, number fifty-six and and and say it with confidence.
00:32:53.920 --> 00:32:56.160
But your body language is very, very important.
00:32:56.480 --> 00:32:58.559
If it doesn't look like you're sure of yourself.
00:32:58.720 --> 00:33:01.119
In fact, let me digress to Lombardi for a minute.
00:33:01.359 --> 00:33:03.759
Coach Lombardi was very tough on officials.
00:33:04.000 --> 00:33:05.200
Very tough on officials.
00:33:05.359 --> 00:33:07.039
Only there are two things to look for.
00:33:07.119 --> 00:33:10.000
Number one, were you in the right position to make the call.
00:33:10.160 --> 00:33:13.039
He knew who you should be to make that kind of call.
00:33:13.200 --> 00:33:15.680
And number two, did you make it with confidence?
00:33:15.759 --> 00:33:17.599
Or did you look like you were hesitant?
00:33:17.759 --> 00:33:19.920
Did you not throw the flag with authority?
00:33:20.240 --> 00:33:23.519
Did you look like you were unsure of what you were doing?
00:33:23.680 --> 00:33:26.480
If you were unsure of what you were doing, he was after you.
00:33:26.720 --> 00:33:30.480
If you were in the right position and you made the call away, he was after you.
00:33:30.720 --> 00:33:32.400
Other than that, it was okay.
00:33:32.720 --> 00:33:36.880
If you called against the Packers, I've called lots of fouls against the Packers.
00:33:36.960 --> 00:33:43.039
And it and it was okay with Coastal Marty because he knew you were in the right position and you made the call with confidence.
00:33:43.200 --> 00:33:52.319
Your body language, as you mentioned earlier, Mike, is is very important to have confidence in what you're doing, standing wreck and moving where you know you're supposed to be.
00:33:52.880 --> 00:34:04.000
So, Jim, you know, one last question on this is you know, I w in that same article I was referring to in 2008 with you on the Times, you talked about how it's easy for officials to get intimidated.
00:34:04.079 --> 00:34:08.079
And my question really speaks to the work you do with organizations and your officiating.
00:34:08.880 --> 00:34:17.280
Look, it's one thing for you to mentor um a CEO or you to mentor another official and say, look, it's very important to not get intimidated.
00:34:17.360 --> 00:34:19.519
It's very important to have good body language.
00:34:19.920 --> 00:34:24.800
But you know, building the habit and incorporating the habit is something totally different.
00:34:25.039 --> 00:34:30.159
How are you able to build some of these habits to continue to develop as a professional?
00:34:30.480 --> 00:34:34.719
I think it's a secret, and it's really not a secret, but everybody uses that expression.
00:34:35.119 --> 00:34:36.800
The secret is preparation.
00:34:37.119 --> 00:34:43.760
Prepare yourself so well, I've often thought that I want to know the rules better than anybody else in that stadium.
00:34:44.000 --> 00:34:48.960
80,000 people, coaches, players, I want to know the rule better than they do.
00:34:49.119 --> 00:34:52.800
I want to know why the rule is in there and how we enforce the rule.
00:34:52.960 --> 00:35:04.559
And the preparation that you spent prior to the game, preparation you spent as a CEO prior to your meeting, as a salesperson prior to the sales, preparation is vital.
00:35:04.719 --> 00:35:11.039
I'm always reminded of the fact that Noah built that arc before it started to rain.
00:35:11.679 --> 00:35:18.079
And so if you can go into the situation well prepared, your confidence level is at a higher level.
00:35:18.320 --> 00:35:18.559
Indeed.
00:35:18.719 --> 00:35:19.440
And that's important.
00:35:19.599 --> 00:35:23.679
The confidence of my language comes from your thorough preparation.
00:35:24.000 --> 00:35:28.480
All right, Jim, I want to quickly ask you for a quick comment on three games that you officiated.
00:35:28.639 --> 00:35:30.079
First of all, the ice bowl.
00:35:30.320 --> 00:35:31.440
Question for you.
00:35:31.840 --> 00:35:34.480
Have you ever been in an environment that cold?
00:35:34.960 --> 00:35:36.880
Mark, I live in California.
00:35:37.119 --> 00:35:38.639
My blood is very thin.
00:35:39.199 --> 00:35:42.079
And I wanted we flew into Green Bay on Saturday.
00:35:42.159 --> 00:35:43.280
It was a beautiful evening.
00:35:43.519 --> 00:35:47.519
Went dinner that night, the moon was out, it was everything was fine.
00:35:47.679 --> 00:35:49.840
The next day the temperature dropped.
00:35:50.079 --> 00:35:52.320
We we didn't we we were not prepared.
00:35:52.480 --> 00:35:53.840
I wasn't prepared.
00:35:54.400 --> 00:36:01.599
So the entire crew of six went downtown to Green Bay and knocked on the Army Navy store.
00:36:01.679 --> 00:36:03.280
It was December 31st.
00:36:03.440 --> 00:36:05.280
The guy was doing his inventory.
00:36:05.440 --> 00:36:09.519
If he wasn't December 31st, he wouldn't have been there on a Sunday morning.
00:36:09.679 --> 00:36:11.119
We got him to open the door.
00:36:11.199 --> 00:36:12.800
He didn't want to open the door.
00:36:12.960 --> 00:36:17.679
We bought everything we could, long johns and gloves and everything we could to keep warm.
00:36:17.840 --> 00:36:21.360
So it was just it was very difficult to work that game.
00:36:21.679 --> 00:36:23.360
Okay, next game, the catch.
00:36:23.519 --> 00:36:26.400
Um the significance of that Dwight Clark play.
00:36:27.039 --> 00:36:38.639
Do you, when you're officiating a game like that and you see that, do does it ever cross your path what the historical significance of a play will be right then and there as before time unfolds?
00:36:38.960 --> 00:36:40.880
Number one, I didn't see the catch.
00:36:41.039 --> 00:36:44.880
Because I was my job was following the the quarterback, Montana.
00:36:45.039 --> 00:36:45.199
Okay.
00:36:45.360 --> 00:36:47.440
And then Joe Montana rolled to the right.
00:36:47.679 --> 00:36:51.039
As he threw the ball, he got knocked down by Ed Two Tall Jones.
00:36:51.280 --> 00:36:52.960
My job was looking at him.
00:36:53.119 --> 00:36:56.239
And Joe was on the ground, he looked up, he said, What happened?
00:36:56.400 --> 00:36:58.400
I said, You threw it in the stand.
00:37:00.480 --> 00:37:00.960
That's great.
00:37:03.760 --> 00:37:04.639
We call him DC.
00:37:04.880 --> 00:37:06.400
DC caught it for a touchdown.
00:37:06.559 --> 00:37:07.039
That's correct.
00:37:07.360 --> 00:37:11.440
But but I never thought about the fact that it was it was that significant.
00:37:11.599 --> 00:37:19.840
It's one of the top four games in the history of the NFL that ESPN had on the other night, or networked had on the other night.
00:37:19.920 --> 00:37:22.559
But it's uh it was a historic game.
00:37:22.639 --> 00:37:32.960
And and both of them, Joe Montana, Dwight Clark, God love him, Dwight, who passed away with ALS, but but uh wonderful people that work on the field with very pleasant on the field.
00:37:33.280 --> 00:37:35.679
All right, Jim, we're gonna go come back for one more segment.
00:37:35.840 --> 00:37:37.599
Thank you for continuing to be with us.
00:37:37.760 --> 00:37:40.719
And uh uh thank you, Jim Tunney, for staying with us.
00:37:40.800 --> 00:37:42.719
I'm Mark Altman for iCommunicate.
00:37:42.800 --> 00:37:44.639
We'll be back right after the break.
00:38:04.079 --> 00:38:07.840
On Full Service Radio, 830 WRF.
00:38:08.400 --> 00:38:10.159
Once again, here's your host.
00:38:12.320 --> 00:38:13.760
Welcome back to iCommunicate.
00:38:13.840 --> 00:38:23.360
I'm with uh Jim Tutney, uh former NFL official data referees, three-time author, uh more than three-time author, and many other accolades to his resume.
00:38:23.679 --> 00:38:30.960
Jim, uh before we go to our final topic, I do want to ask you about one other game, uh the fumble, the game with Cleveland and Denver.
00:38:31.119 --> 00:38:49.599
And you know, my question for you about that game is when you know we use the term choke in sports a lot, when when players make mistakes in the clutch, did your heart, you know, uh even though you're an official and you can't be partial to either team, when's when you see plays like that and guys disappoint, does your heart break for them?
00:38:49.920 --> 00:38:51.679
What goes through your mind when you see stuff like that?
00:38:52.079 --> 00:38:56.320
Let me go back uh for a second before I answer that regarding the catch.
00:38:56.480 --> 00:39:02.000
First of all, uh between Joe Montana and Dwight Clark, Montana doesn't call it the catch.
00:39:02.079 --> 00:39:03.760
He calls it the throw.
00:39:05.360 --> 00:39:06.960
That makes sense, not surprised.
00:39:08.000 --> 00:39:11.760
And the second thing about the importance of the game, the game wasn't over.
00:39:11.920 --> 00:39:29.199
We still had about a minute and a half left, and and uh Danny Danny White of the qu quarterback of the Cowboys was coming to he wanted to come back down the field like Montana did, and the Cowboys wanted to win the game, and he fumbled the ball, uh, and he wanted to catch call an incomplete pass.
00:39:29.440 --> 00:39:31.920
I said, No, no, Danny, it was a fumble.
00:39:32.000 --> 00:39:43.360
Now replay was was uh uh not available at the time, so there was no looking at it, it was just his word and mine, and of course it turned out as you look at the replay, it definitely was a fumble.
00:39:43.599 --> 00:40:03.280
Regarding the the fumble again in in uh in Mile Hyde Stadium before they built this new stadium between the the Cleveland Browns and the and the Denver Broncos, uh I worked the game before the year before in Cleveland L Way made that eighty-five yard drive to win the game.
00:40:03.679 --> 00:40:10.079
But you know, when you see a a pummel like Ernest Spiner, what a wonderful, wonderful guy Ernest Spiner is.
00:40:10.239 --> 00:40:17.920
But just before that, they're down the goal, they're down the what fifteen, twenty yard line, and Bernie Kozar calls Kyle out.
00:40:18.159 --> 00:40:21.840
And he went over to talk to Marty Schottenheim, was the coach of the Browns.
00:40:22.000 --> 00:40:26.159
And when he came back, I mean the the place is just tense as ever.
00:40:26.559 --> 00:40:40.400
Here's the driving Browns coming in to win the game, and all you gotta do is hand it to Ernest Blair, and he'll get in the end zone and it's over and all when Bernie came back in, I said, uh, does it help you to go over there and talk to the coach?
00:40:40.639 --> 00:40:43.280
He said, No, it makes you feel better when I do that.
00:40:45.280 --> 00:40:50.960
We we it was all it it it's a game, Mark, and and so we have fun with it out there.
00:40:51.119 --> 00:41:07.440
But when Bernie when Ernie Minor fumble the ball and Denver recovered right then, yeah, I I watched uh Minor go over to the bench and we had a little time out there, and the the players were all over him, patting him on the back, it's okay, shake it off, don't worry about it.
00:41:07.599 --> 00:41:17.840
But China was a great gesture in terms they lost the game on that fumble because now all all uh Denver had to do was just hang on the ball for a short time and they won the game.
00:41:18.000 --> 00:41:25.679
But they were they were patting Ernie on the burning spider on the back and making it feel good, and it's okay and shake it off.
00:41:26.079 --> 00:41:28.239
You don't lose the game on one play.
00:41:28.400 --> 00:41:32.639
You lose the game because you didn't play as well as the other team, and that's the difference.
00:41:33.119 --> 00:41:33.440
Indeed.
00:41:33.760 --> 00:41:38.960
So so Jim wanna want to shift to two uh two final thoughts uh before we wrap up today.
00:41:39.119 --> 00:41:41.920
First of all, I want to talk about coaching youth sports.
00:41:42.079 --> 00:41:44.400
You know, you've you've coached for many years in your career.
00:41:44.559 --> 00:41:51.679
My question is what's changed, you know, in terms of, you know, kids are playing sports all year round, AAU and things like that.
00:41:51.920 --> 00:41:55.039
You know, what advice do you give coaches of youth sports today?
00:41:55.119 --> 00:41:59.840
What are the things that you see coaches not doing that you're trying to encourage them to do?
00:42:00.239 --> 00:42:04.559
A friend of mine who played for the Baltimore coach named Joe Erdman, you might remember that name.
00:42:04.639 --> 00:42:04.800
Yep.
00:42:05.039 --> 00:42:08.159
Joe Erman wrote a book that I feel very, very strong about.
00:42:08.320 --> 00:42:10.320
You coach from the inside out.
00:42:10.639 --> 00:42:24.000
You're coaching a player because he I I can't remember and all the basketball and all the sports I played in high school college, I can't remember if we won championships and what a record was and all that.
00:42:24.079 --> 00:42:26.400
But I do remember the friendships that I made.
00:42:26.559 --> 00:42:32.800
And the people who helped me and when times were tough, and the times I got to help people when they made a mistake.
00:42:33.119 --> 00:42:35.199
That's the thing that you learn about sports.
00:42:35.360 --> 00:42:38.000
And that's what coaches uh need to think about.
00:42:38.159 --> 00:42:42.800
And fortunately today we have too many coaches that have never been educators.
00:42:42.960 --> 00:42:45.840
They didn't go through the program of being educators.
00:42:46.079 --> 00:42:53.599
In order to teach in in coach in in Los Angeles City Schools where I was for a number for twenty five years.
00:42:53.920 --> 00:43:00.239
You you gotta go through the teaching program and you gotta go and come in as an educator, not just a coach.
00:43:00.400 --> 00:43:04.719
And so what you're coaching kids is from the inside out, how they can learn from mistakes.
00:43:04.960 --> 00:43:13.760
So you lose the game 'cause the kid didn't do what he's supposed to that you've been teaching him for for for ten weeks and all of a sudden he made a mistake.
00:43:14.159 --> 00:43:15.679
He didn't want to make that mistake.
00:43:15.840 --> 00:43:19.679
Nobody goes into the game saying, Well, let's see, today I'm gonna make a mistake.
00:43:19.840 --> 00:43:20.320
No, no.
00:43:20.559 --> 00:43:22.320
You just avoid that all you can.
00:43:22.559 --> 00:43:27.119
You need to help people uh re recover from times that that are tough for them.
00:43:27.840 --> 00:43:36.400
Jim, I I want to ask, I know you do a lot of work, you know, Jim, as a as a national trainer and speaker, I want to talk, I know you do a lot of work around motivation.
00:43:36.559 --> 00:43:43.119
And my question for you is w were you ever underestimated at any point in your career?
00:43:43.280 --> 00:43:49.280
Did you use that as a driver for motivation and regardless, how do you motivate yourself?
00:43:50.000 --> 00:43:53.599
Well, first of all, I I like the term inspiration rather than motivation.
00:43:53.840 --> 00:43:54.000
Okay.
00:43:54.320 --> 00:43:56.079
I don't think you can motivate anybody.
00:43:56.239 --> 00:44:01.840
You can inspire 'em to do something, but the motivation from from Everybody has to come from within.
00:44:02.079 --> 00:44:07.280
You can get ideas from other people, but in order for you to move forward, you have to motivate yourself.
00:44:07.440 --> 00:44:08.639
You can learn from other people.
00:44:08.719 --> 00:44:11.360
And that's where the word inspiration comes in.
00:44:11.519 --> 00:44:16.480
And for the second part of it, mm, I I I never thought I was very good at what I did.
00:44:16.559 --> 00:44:24.559
I I I thought I was I was uh just uh uh another guy playing basketball in high school or or baseball in college.
00:44:24.719 --> 00:44:30.079
And uh I never thought of myself in any sense of the word as a superstar.
00:44:30.320 --> 00:44:33.679
So I was always thought that uh I was I was lucky to be there.
00:44:33.920 --> 00:44:36.559
I was glad to have a glove on to be a first baseman.
00:44:36.719 --> 00:44:45.199
I was glad to to be bring the ball down the court as a as a uh what do you call shooting guards or or point guards or whatever you want to call them.
00:44:45.360 --> 00:44:46.719
I was just lucky to be there.
00:44:46.880 --> 00:44:52.320
I I was very fortunate to to play with some really good players and and that helped a lot.
00:44:52.559 --> 00:44:55.760
But uh I had to build that confidence in myself.
00:44:55.920 --> 00:45:03.760
I sat on the bench marked a lot more times than I played, unfortunately, and and I wanted to play every day, every time, every game.
00:45:03.840 --> 00:45:07.760
I want to be the guy on the floor, and it didn't always happen that way.
00:45:07.840 --> 00:45:11.360
But it's important to build your confidence and maintain it.
00:45:11.599 --> 00:45:15.920
In fact, Herm Edwards is a good friend of mine, coach of Arizona State football now.
00:45:16.159 --> 00:45:22.559
He said he said, You can lose your confidence, but don't ever lose your momentum.
00:45:24.079 --> 00:45:24.960
Interesting.
00:45:25.280 --> 00:45:27.360
What what do you want your legacy to be, Jim?
00:45:27.519 --> 00:45:32.000
You know, um how do you want how do you want to be known for as a person, as a professional?
00:45:32.079 --> 00:45:33.199
What are your thoughts?
00:45:33.760 --> 00:45:36.079
Did I do the best I could with other people?
00:45:36.480 --> 00:45:39.440
Did I help them become better at their lives?
00:45:39.840 --> 00:45:50.159
Not just better basketball players or better hitters in baseball or better better uh run fullbacks or running backs in in football.
00:45:50.480 --> 00:45:53.440
Did I did I make them better as an individual?
00:45:53.599 --> 00:45:57.280
Did I help them improve their lives and become successful people?
00:45:58.719 --> 00:46:03.039
Do you have a favorite official today, Jim, that you're that uh you enjoy watching?
00:46:04.719 --> 00:46:10.960
Today's uh there's so many good officials uh in the NFL now that that aren't getting the credit for being good officials.
00:46:11.119 --> 00:46:19.360
Um Jerry Mark Bright has been a friend of mine, he's a former NFL official who worked I think three or four football r rules Super Bowl games.
00:46:19.519 --> 00:46:22.559
Uh Jerry's just terrific at what he did.
00:46:22.639 --> 00:46:29.760
Uh and Hockey Lee is very famous for his bodybuilding, but he's also a very good official and a very good rules man.
00:46:29.840 --> 00:46:36.079
And look at officials and how to also they not only know the rules, but interpret them properly.
00:46:36.400 --> 00:46:37.039
That's awesome.
00:46:37.119 --> 00:46:38.800
Okay, and final question for you today, Jim.
00:46:39.039 --> 00:46:41.199
Thank you again so much for joining the show.
00:46:41.360 --> 00:46:46.159
Uh, is most fond NFL memory of your career?
00:46:47.360 --> 00:47:01.280
Oh, Mark, I guess after uh five hundred NFL games, it has to be uh Super Bowl 11, played January 9th, uh, 1977 in the Rolls Bowl in Pasadena, California.
00:47:01.519 --> 00:47:05.840
I grew up just four miles from that Rolls Bowl, a little town called San Gabriel.
00:47:06.000 --> 00:47:06.239
Yep.
00:47:06.400 --> 00:47:08.639
And I I would go to the Rolls Bowl.
00:47:08.800 --> 00:47:10.960
My dad was an official, as I mentioned before.
00:47:11.119 --> 00:47:18.639
I would go I get to sit on the bench in the games my dad were working there when he was working of fishing for Pasadena Junior College.
00:47:18.960 --> 00:47:22.719
A little kid named Jackie Robinson was playing for Passadia Junior College.
00:47:22.800 --> 00:47:25.599
And so Jackie's just ten years older than I.
00:47:25.760 --> 00:47:30.719
And I got to sit on the bench alongside of Jackie Robinson when he was just Jackie Robinson.
00:47:30.960 --> 00:47:31.920
That's unbelievable.
00:47:32.159 --> 00:47:34.639
And and uh and be able to see that man.
00:47:34.800 --> 00:47:41.360
And then I got a chance to work through Bowl 11, January 9th, 1977, between Oakland and Minnesota.
00:47:41.519 --> 00:47:43.920
I worked in the same place where my dad had worked.
00:47:44.000 --> 00:47:46.559
That was probably the biggest one of the biggest thrills for me.
00:47:46.880 --> 00:47:49.039
Jim, thank you again for your time.
00:47:49.199 --> 00:47:52.239
Really look forward to having the opportunity to meet you at some point.
00:47:52.400 --> 00:47:54.320
I hope you have a wonderful rest of the week.
00:47:54.559 --> 00:47:59.760
For Mark Altman, I am the host of Mindset Go, or founder of Mindset Go, host of iCommunicate.
00:48:00.000 --> 00:48:01.519
Hope you have a great rest of the week.
00:48:02.159 --> 00:48:02.800
Starting off.
00:48:03.199 --> 00:48:03.840
Thanks, guys.
00:00:09.279 --> 00:00:13.759
830W by the way.
00:00:14.000 --> 00:00:16.320
8717 now.
00:00:16.800 --> 00:00:17.600
Here's your host.
00:00:18.079 --> 00:00:18.800
Mark Altman.
00:00:19.679 --> 00:00:24.079
Good afternoon, everybody, and welcome to the i Communicate Mindset Go Radio Show.
00:00:24.160 --> 00:00:25.280
I'm your host, Mark Altman.
00:00:25.440 --> 00:00:28.399
Happy to be back with you here on a Thursday afternoon.
00:00:28.640 --> 00:00:32.240
And I've got to tell you before we get started, I introduce our special guest.
00:00:32.399 --> 00:00:33.840
I have one request, everybody.
00:00:33.920 --> 00:00:43.520
I'm asking you to be mindful, and I'm hoping this show is a one-hour respite from the coronavirus because boy, it is just taking over the entire world right now.
00:00:43.679 --> 00:00:50.000
You can't look anywhere or hear anything without hearing somebody or something talking about the coronavirus.
00:00:50.079 --> 00:00:54.560
So I'm hoping this is an entertaining hour which allows you to take your mind off it.
00:00:55.039 --> 00:00:56.640
I feel very fortunate today.
00:00:56.799 --> 00:01:06.799
You know, this show is about how to be a more confident and effective communicator at work, home, in school, and certainly when competing in sports, which is a huge passion of mine.
00:01:07.359 --> 00:01:14.719
And we have a special guest today, former NFL referee Jim Tunney, who is uh great, I love that.
00:01:14.799 --> 00:01:25.359
Uh who is also uh known nickname, the dean of NFL referees, Jim, um has 30 years of experience as an educator, 31 years as an NFL referee.
00:01:25.599 --> 00:01:32.079
He works with Fortune 500 companies on team building, leadership, peak performance, motivation.
00:01:32.560 --> 00:01:34.719
He has written several books.
00:01:35.439 --> 00:01:41.920
And he has 29 postseason assignments, including 10 championship games and three Super Bowls.
00:01:42.239 --> 00:01:44.480
Jim, thank you so much for joining the show today.
00:01:44.799 --> 00:01:46.079
Mark, delighted to be with you.
00:01:46.159 --> 00:01:48.879
How are you thinking back in the Massachusetts area?
00:01:49.120 --> 00:01:49.920
Well, Jim, they're okay.
00:01:50.000 --> 00:01:52.879
They're not as warm as where you are out in sunny California, right?
00:01:53.439 --> 00:02:01.840
We're about in the mid-50s right now, but it's uh bright sunshine and uh no snow and uh very, very enjoyable.
00:02:02.159 --> 00:02:02.560
I love it.
00:02:02.640 --> 00:02:09.199
Now, Jim, before we get started today, I I saw I did some research on you before the show, and I've got to verify something.
00:02:09.599 --> 00:02:16.159
Were you the one that created the symbol for an extra point or field goal being good?
00:02:16.319 --> 00:02:19.120
Were you the one that created with the hands up in the air?
00:02:19.599 --> 00:02:23.199
No, I was uh everybody did that uh before I got in.
00:02:23.439 --> 00:02:43.439
But uh what was special to me was, and I don't know how it happened, but uh after a touchdown or a field goal or a trifle point, uh the referee turns the camera and signals hands overhead, and as I did it, I would raise my hands overhead with my fist closed, and as it got to the top, I would open my hands up.
00:02:44.719 --> 00:02:46.319
Okay, that's great.
00:02:46.719 --> 00:02:51.199
That uh somebody had pointed out that was unique, and nobody ever done that before.
00:02:51.360 --> 00:02:54.639
I don't know anybody does it now, but it uh it wasn't anything special.
00:02:54.719 --> 00:02:56.400
It was just one of those things I did.
00:02:57.199 --> 00:02:58.639
A natural occurrence for me.
00:02:59.039 --> 00:03:00.240
You know what's interesting, Jim?
00:03:00.400 --> 00:03:04.639
You know, um you've had such a successful career in so many different areas.
00:03:04.800 --> 00:03:12.960
And what's interesting to me about NFL officials, more so than the other sports, is you're you're they're very recognizable.
00:03:13.120 --> 00:03:20.400
I mean, their names are always on the TV, um, and and I feel like they're on TV so often during the game.
00:03:20.639 --> 00:03:22.800
Um was that an adjustment for you at all?
00:03:22.960 --> 00:03:25.439
Is becoming a recognized public figure?
00:03:25.599 --> 00:03:31.759
And and frankly, it's part two of my question is did it ever work against you when people recognized you?
00:03:32.159 --> 00:03:33.280
And not really against me.
00:03:33.599 --> 00:03:35.599
I can't get that out of the way right away.
00:03:35.919 --> 00:03:40.639
No, uh people occasionally will say, Well, you sure blew that call.
00:03:41.120 --> 00:03:46.960
And and you just laugh it off, and and and they don't sometimes don't really even see what you saw.
00:03:47.120 --> 00:03:56.719
Uh it's almost like the the trap accident where the blue car hit the white car, the white car at the blue car, and officials are looking at it in in very narrow seconds.
00:03:56.800 --> 00:03:58.800
They don't have a lot of time to think about it.
00:03:58.960 --> 00:04:02.400
Don't don't think don't let your thinking screw up the play.
00:04:02.479 --> 00:04:05.199
Just see what happened and and make the call.
00:04:05.280 --> 00:04:08.080
And you and it it it's worked out fine for me.
00:04:08.240 --> 00:04:12.800
The the other part of that of being recognized is is it it's amazing to me.
00:04:13.360 --> 00:04:28.160
I had a have a grandson who's at DePaul University right now, and and uh someone asked him his name and he said Ryland Ryland Tunney, and he said uh he said my grandfather, Jim Tunney, was a referee of the NFL for 30 years.
00:04:28.399 --> 00:04:31.839
He said, You are the grandson of Jim Tunney.
00:04:32.079 --> 00:04:34.959
I thought that that kind of thing blows me away.
00:04:35.120 --> 00:04:38.399
I I don't think people recognize it officially, but they surely do.
00:04:38.720 --> 00:04:39.040
That's right.
00:04:39.120 --> 00:04:39.279
Yeah.
00:04:39.360 --> 00:04:50.959
So so Jimmy, you know, I know when we talked previously, you share with me how you started out as a school teacher, eventually became a principal and then superintendent, and I know you had a huge passion as a to be a coach growing up.
00:04:51.199 --> 00:04:58.399
You know, one thing I think we ought none a lot of people don't really understand is what the path is like to become an official.
00:04:58.560 --> 00:05:01.360
You know, the hard work and and training you have to do.
00:05:01.519 --> 00:05:06.319
So could you educate us on what that road is like to eventually become an NFL official?
00:05:06.639 --> 00:05:08.160
I've been in sports all my life.
00:05:08.240 --> 00:05:18.639
I was uh my mom got mad at me because I won't late from dinner being on the playground all afternoon, and she'd say, six o'clock, hands washed, hair combed, and sitting at the table.
00:05:18.800 --> 00:05:19.759
Don't be late.
00:05:20.240 --> 00:05:24.000
So that that taught me about discipline and timing and things.
00:05:24.160 --> 00:05:25.680
But I wanted to be uh a coach.
00:05:25.759 --> 00:05:26.959
My dad was a coach.
00:05:27.040 --> 00:05:32.399
I never really thought I would follow his path, but I thought it's the thing I like to do is coach people.
00:05:32.560 --> 00:05:42.800
So when I went to college, I uh became a physical education major and I was a a teacher and a coach for a number of years and and uh then I moved into administration.
00:05:42.959 --> 00:05:44.399
I'm still coaching people.
00:05:44.560 --> 00:05:53.680
I was coaching people as a a principal, I was coaching the teachers to coach the kids, as a superintendent, I was coaching the principal to coach the teachers to coach the kids.
00:05:53.839 --> 00:05:57.199
My whole idea was being on the school ground.
00:05:57.439 --> 00:06:10.399
But when I went to school at lunchtime when the teacher had a carpeter and they all have have lunch, I would go and walk around the school ground and talk to the kids, and and they ask about the NFL and they ask about this or that.
00:06:10.560 --> 00:06:15.199
And that was my whole goal was to how can I help people become better at what they do.
00:06:15.360 --> 00:06:28.240
And that's why I left the school bus building and go into professional speaking, so now I can help associations and corporations uh communicate and talk about the people that I knew who were great communicators.
00:06:28.319 --> 00:06:36.720
I mean people like uh Vince Lombardi or uh Don Chu or Tom Landry or John Batten or Bill Walsh, people like that.
00:06:36.879 --> 00:06:42.240
I saw them communicate with their team to make their team successful and learned a lot from those people.
00:06:42.560 --> 00:06:58.800
So so Jim, you know, following up on that, you know, I'm an enormous Vince Lombardi fan, but just the names you mentioned, Landry and Lombardi and people like that, what are the th what are the commonalities that you saw that you would feel confident calling them a great communicator?
00:06:58.959 --> 00:07:03.279
What what are those characteristics that are your top tops on the list?
00:07:03.680 --> 00:07:07.759
Probably top of that list, Mark, would be uh they were honest with people.
00:07:07.920 --> 00:07:10.800
They were they they had a sense of integrity.
00:07:10.879 --> 00:07:15.360
Uh Tom Landry, Don Schuller, people like that were flat out honest.
00:07:15.439 --> 00:07:17.600
And they they were never trying to hurt you.
00:07:17.759 --> 00:07:20.399
They were being critical of you so that they could help you.
00:07:20.560 --> 00:07:25.759
And they were able to get that across to people to to their players that they're not trying to hurt them.
00:07:25.920 --> 00:07:28.480
I'm here to help you, but I've got to be honest with you.
00:07:28.639 --> 00:07:36.720
If you missed a block, you didn't do that, and you watched Vince Lombardi being a fan of his and do that famous drawing on Blackboard.
00:07:36.879 --> 00:07:44.720
We'll have a seal here and a seal here, and run right up any, you know, and and you can very well see what he's trying to get across.
00:07:44.879 --> 00:07:55.519
And all the players that I've talked to that played for Lombardi, the Barstars, the Jerry Kramers, the people like that, they really uh really well he was tough on him.
00:07:55.600 --> 00:07:56.879
I mean, really tough on him.
00:07:57.040 --> 00:07:58.079
They love that man.
00:07:58.319 --> 00:08:05.360
So, Jim, uh, and for for for our listeners, if you'd like to call in and have any questions for Jim Tunney, the number's 508-8717000.
00:08:05.839 --> 00:08:11.199
Jim, you know, one question I have for you, being from New England, uh we have we are in Patriot Nation.
00:08:11.279 --> 00:08:15.920
So question for you is two-part question, have you had any interactions with Bill Belichick?
00:08:16.000 --> 00:08:23.839
And if so, what what is your take on him relative to the Landry's and the and the uh Lombardi's and Shulas?
00:08:24.480 --> 00:08:28.639
When uh Coach Belichick was uh coaching in the league, he was an assistant.
00:08:28.720 --> 00:08:38.559
Uh I was I left the league in 1991, though Coach Belichick was still an assistant, so I never really had a great interaction with him as a head coach.
00:08:38.799 --> 00:08:44.879
And uh, of course they've had some difficulties with Spygate and with Deflay Gate and all that sort of thing.
00:08:45.120 --> 00:08:52.480
And uh I'm sorry that happened because I have a great respect for Coach Belichick and for Tom Brady, what they're doing.
00:08:52.639 --> 00:08:55.840
I don't know if they intentionally tried to cheat.
00:08:56.000 --> 00:08:57.600
I I'm not aware of all that.
00:08:57.679 --> 00:09:03.360
I'm just gonna read the papers and you only can believe half of what you read in the papers anyway.
00:09:03.519 --> 00:09:10.799
So I I I uh I I think they've done a great job creating a winning environment up there, and people love to play for him.
00:09:10.879 --> 00:09:19.039
So that's the part that gets me is that if you like playing for the coach, uh and not just because he's winning, but because he's the kind of guy you like playing for.
00:09:19.440 --> 00:09:20.480
Jim, let me ask you this.
00:09:20.639 --> 00:09:33.679
Speaking of cheating, you know, football has done a pretty good job staying away from cheating scandals, especially compared to baseball, and even in the NBA that had the uh point-shaving scandal uh back with the referee back then.
00:09:34.000 --> 00:09:46.000
Question for you is with with football moving to Las Vegas, with the Raiders moving to Las Vegas, do you have any concerns around the exposure to gambling and cheating with that move to Las Vegas?
00:09:46.320 --> 00:09:51.279
When I started in 1960, uh Pete Rosell became the commissioner that year.
00:09:51.679 --> 00:09:56.720
Uh Commissioner Rosell and I started in the NFL uh the same year, nineteen sixty.
00:09:56.879 --> 00:10:01.440
And we were not allowed as officials to go into Vegas for any reason.
00:10:01.679 --> 00:10:02.799
No teams were there.
00:10:02.960 --> 00:10:13.679
We weren't allowed to go into Vegas uh during the season because people would recognize you as you said earlier, they recognize you and you're an official, they and they try to get close to you.
00:10:13.840 --> 00:10:34.639
In fact, Art McDowell, who was our supervisor of officials for my twenty-seven of my thirty-one years, and uh Art McDowelly would would say, you know, you you you've got to avoid press, you've got to avoid the the confrontation with people who want to know, gee, is uh Joe Montana's re back really that bad?
00:10:34.799 --> 00:10:39.360
Is is only gonna be able to perform with the injuries he had, that type of thing.
00:10:39.519 --> 00:10:41.200
So you avoid it all the time.
00:10:41.360 --> 00:10:45.759
Uh when I think of integrity, uh Art McDowell does come to mind.
00:10:45.919 --> 00:10:47.279
Uh he was so honest.
00:10:47.360 --> 00:10:53.360
He was uh I said to many people, I would play poker over the phone with Art McDowell.
00:10:53.600 --> 00:10:54.159
Oh wow.
00:10:54.639 --> 00:10:56.240
He would never never teach you.
00:10:56.399 --> 00:11:03.279
And I I don't think that uh I I have a great respect for Koj Belichick and for Bob Kraft, uh the owner.
00:11:03.440 --> 00:11:08.320
Uh I remember when that uh spy gate happened and they were fined.
00:11:08.559 --> 00:11:16.080
I think a half million dollars for the team and two hundred and fifty thousand dollars for for uh for Koj Belichick.
00:11:16.240 --> 00:11:17.360
I'm not sure of the numbers.
00:11:17.600 --> 00:11:22.720
I remember a reporter came to Bob Kraft and said, Are you uh concerned about this?
00:11:22.960 --> 00:11:30.080
He said, No, he said, uh uh Commissioner is is responsible for integrity and he has to do that.
00:11:30.240 --> 00:11:32.320
And I said, Oh, wait a minute, Mr.
00:11:32.399 --> 00:11:32.960
Kraft.
00:11:33.200 --> 00:11:35.279
The commissioner is only the policeman.
00:11:35.600 --> 00:11:37.039
You are responsible for integrity.
00:11:37.279 --> 00:11:37.840
Indeed, indeed.
00:11:38.159 --> 00:11:46.399
Your players, your coaches are all responsible for the integrity, and the commissioner is only there to be the the sheriff in town.
00:11:46.559 --> 00:11:49.919
When something goes wrong, he's gonna step in and and do something about it.
00:11:50.000 --> 00:11:52.320
So that's what I think about the NFL.
00:11:52.480 --> 00:11:58.559
I think every coach, every player, every official has got to be a hundred percent honest in what they do.
00:11:58.799 --> 00:12:00.000
Okay, Jim, stay with us.
00:12:00.080 --> 00:12:01.440
We'll be right back after the break.
00:12:01.519 --> 00:12:04.080
I'm Mark Altman for the i Communicate Radio Show.
00:12:21.120 --> 00:12:27.840
Now i Communicate continues on Full Service Radio at 830 W ARF.
00:12:28.240 --> 00:12:30.960
Once again, here's your host, Mark Hall.
00:12:31.679 --> 00:12:33.679
Welcome back, everybody, to iCommunicate.
00:12:33.759 --> 00:12:39.440
It is my privilege today to be with uh one of the most well-known officials in the history of sports, Jim Tunney.
00:12:39.759 --> 00:12:42.960
And uh, Jim, you know, I I I'd like to continue our conversation.
00:12:43.039 --> 00:12:50.240
And you know, one of the things I think about is when when you were a referee, an NFL referee, what what was your work week like?
00:12:50.399 --> 00:12:52.480
I mean, what were you doing while you were refing?
00:12:52.559 --> 00:12:57.519
How many hours a week were you, you know, preparing for the upcoming game and so on and so forth?
00:12:57.840 --> 00:12:59.440
How many hours are there in the week?
00:12:59.600 --> 00:13:01.600
I never get figure that out.
00:13:01.759 --> 00:13:09.519
Yeah I get at the school on Monday morning at uh about seven to seven fifteen in the morning before the classes start at eight o'clock.
00:13:09.600 --> 00:13:16.399
And I was there usually till six or six thirty at night, uh fighting the traffic in downtown Los Angeles.
00:13:16.559 --> 00:13:19.440
It better come in early and stay home stay late.
00:13:19.600 --> 00:13:19.840
Indeed.
00:13:20.159 --> 00:13:53.279
But I worked at school building Monday through Friday, and then Saturday morning I'd uh pack my bag Friday night, but Saturday morning I'd leave home Berlin and get a flight to drive to LA LAX and flight from Los Angeles to to Boston or Miami or Detroit or Green Bay, and then Sunday night after the game I get on a plane and I would fly from that location back to Los Angeles, get in around nine o'clock, go home, I get some sleep and be at a law be my school assignment on Monday morning at seven fifteen.
00:13:53.360 --> 00:13:55.440
So it's a seven day a week job.
00:13:55.679 --> 00:13:58.559
And uh from August to December.
00:13:58.720 --> 00:14:04.159
Uh we we has the playoffs in January, but it didn't go as long as the season goes now.
00:14:04.399 --> 00:14:06.799
But I was uh it was it was great for me.
00:14:06.879 --> 00:14:21.600
It it was a a tough time going, going, going, but uh I really enjoyed even staying Friday night at school at the school dance and then not getting home till nine or ten o'clock, maybe eleven eleven and get up early and go to the airport and fly out.
00:14:21.840 --> 00:14:31.360
I really enjoyed the change of pace getting on an airplane and the commissioner was always nice enough that at that time he was allowed to fly first class.
00:14:31.519 --> 00:14:36.639
So we were very nice, comfortable flying from from Los Angeles across the country.
00:14:36.799 --> 00:14:42.960
And it's five or six hours from New York or Boston and all the way back to Los Angeles.
00:14:43.039 --> 00:14:50.320
But I I really enjoyed that and I I would during that week I would always do something with the NFL, even though I was in a school building.
00:14:50.720 --> 00:14:56.799
Whether it was late afternoon or early evening or whatever I could seek the time, I would uh study the rules.
00:14:56.960 --> 00:15:11.120
In fact, in those days every official had a test to take every week and you had a written test of uh some twenty-five to fifty questions that you thought about something would happen about rules enforcement.
00:15:11.360 --> 00:15:12.639
And uh I would do that.
00:15:12.960 --> 00:15:15.200
So officials uh then were studying.
00:15:15.360 --> 00:15:17.600
Today they're studying all the time.
00:15:17.840 --> 00:15:35.759
Now with videotapes, when they finish the game, they get a videotape of the game on a disc and they put it in their their uh Microsoft edge and and and they're flying back there, they're looking at the game, reviewing the the plays and and answering questions that uh might have come up during the game.
00:15:35.919 --> 00:15:37.440
So it's a it's a full-time job.
00:15:37.759 --> 00:15:39.360
Well that's that's where I was going, Jim.
00:15:39.440 --> 00:15:42.639
You know, it's like you know, you you manage to study the rules.
00:15:42.720 --> 00:15:49.600
And by the way, a quick question before I ask my other question is if you didn't pass that test back in the day you had to take, what were the consequences of that?
00:15:49.759 --> 00:15:51.200
Did you not get to officiate?
00:15:51.519 --> 00:16:01.360
Well, no, when the uh official would c supervisor would call you and said, you know, you missed half the questions on the test and and you you gotta go back and review it.
00:16:01.519 --> 00:16:05.919
They they would just encourage you to review it and go back and take the test again.
00:16:06.159 --> 00:16:07.440
It was more of a quiz.
00:16:07.519 --> 00:16:09.679
It wasn't a matter of of qualifying you.
00:16:09.759 --> 00:16:10.879
You're already qualified.
00:16:11.039 --> 00:16:12.399
They just want to keep you sharp.
00:16:12.480 --> 00:16:17.919
That's what the point of the test was, not to try to qualify you or or re-qualify you.
00:16:18.399 --> 00:16:29.279
So, Jim, so so so my question for you is back in the day when you were flying out on a Saturday and flying back on a Sunday night, you managed to be, along with several of your colleagues, tremendous officials.
00:16:29.519 --> 00:16:32.480
Why why does it have to be a full-time job now?
00:16:32.559 --> 00:16:41.840
I mean, I understand the technology is great, but what's changed in the game where the amount of prep has to be so much more significant?
00:16:42.639 --> 00:16:43.679
Replay.
00:16:44.159 --> 00:16:47.600
Videotape replay has changed the game continually.
00:16:48.159 --> 00:16:53.200
When replay started in 1986, Mark, that's when replay first came in.
00:16:53.440 --> 00:17:00.559
It actually started in 1978, but took the owners eight years before they finally decided that yes to use the replay.
00:17:00.639 --> 00:17:00.799
Wow.
00:17:01.039 --> 00:17:13.200
Now it's gotten to the point where everything is reviewed, every little thing that step out of bounds and we would call it a pass incomplete, and you go back and look and yeah, he did get both feet down, but it is a completed pass.
00:17:13.440 --> 00:17:14.960
So you go back and review that.
00:17:15.200 --> 00:17:22.720
Now it's so technical on the review plate that uh i i it's it's tougher on officials today than it ever has been.
00:17:22.960 --> 00:17:24.720
But but the game has to change.
00:17:24.880 --> 00:17:26.640
Just don't have eleven cards on each side.
00:17:26.960 --> 00:17:52.720
You get four downs, you gotta make ten yards, you have a gold line on sort of thing, but the the technology of it and the thing that the fan sees at home in his living room on his widescreen TV that you're that you're seeing for maybe one or two seconds, and you have to make the call and and the replay goes over and over and over and you finally say, Yeah, that guy wasn't mountains, it was okay, but you saw it after four or five times, you agreed.
00:17:52.880 --> 00:17:55.359
The replay has changed the game tremendously.
00:17:55.599 --> 00:18:01.119
In terms of full-time officials, they tried that one time and it wasn't very successful.
00:18:01.440 --> 00:18:05.519
What do you do Monday through Friday if you're not working a game?
00:18:05.680 --> 00:18:12.319
Uh NBA and uh hockey and baseball, those officials will work several times a week.
00:18:12.640 --> 00:18:14.640
NFL, they only work once a week.
00:18:14.880 --> 00:18:25.279
And so Monday through Friday, you're sitting in the legal office in New York and you're looking at film, that may help you a little, but it's not going to help you improve your technique on the field.
00:18:25.599 --> 00:18:34.079
So, Jim, you know, I was researching an article written in 2008 where you were quoted, and the article was about scrutiny of officials and the accuracy of the calls.
00:18:34.240 --> 00:18:49.279
And back in the day in 2008, there was a stat in the article that said basically for every 100 plays, 97.64 percent of them are officiated correctly, and on average, uh officials make four mistakes a game.
00:18:49.440 --> 00:19:05.279
Uh and it got me to thinking uh uh are the expectations uh uh of fans just flat out unrealistic in the sense of you know, players are making mistakes in the game, they're throwing interceptions, they're dropping passes, coaches are making mistakes in the game.
00:19:05.440 --> 00:19:07.680
I'm sure they're all making four mistakes a game.
00:19:07.759 --> 00:19:10.559
So are the expectations just flat out unrealistic?
00:19:11.039 --> 00:19:12.559
There are two things about the fans.
00:19:12.720 --> 00:19:15.279
First of all, fans want their team to win.
00:19:15.920 --> 00:19:18.960
They don't care about fair play, they want their team to win.
00:19:19.119 --> 00:19:31.839
My definition of fan market for a long time has been a fan is a guy who sits in the 60th row of the stadium and criticizes me for not calling holding in the middle of the line of scrimmage.
00:19:31.920 --> 00:19:35.200
And when he goes to the parking lot, he can't find his car.
00:19:36.640 --> 00:19:37.680
That's great.
00:19:38.000 --> 00:19:42.240
So it it they we want their and we we want perfection too.
00:19:42.480 --> 00:19:44.480
Fisher wants to get every play right.
00:19:44.640 --> 00:19:46.960
Now, perfection is not really possible.
00:19:47.119 --> 00:19:53.759
A quarterback, if he's got a 50, 60 degree perfection in completion passes, he's a pretty good quarterback.
00:19:53.920 --> 00:19:57.359
But we can't run it on 50 or 60 percent accuracy.
00:19:57.519 --> 00:20:01.119
We've got to run on 100%, and sometimes we make a mistake.
00:20:01.359 --> 00:20:11.200
Four mistakes in a game with 156 plays every game, four mistakes, eh, not bad, but we'd like to make it three or two or one or none.
00:20:11.519 --> 00:20:16.000
So, so so Jim, one uh one last question about replay before we move past that.
00:20:16.240 --> 00:20:19.279
Do you do you see, you know, we're seeing it more in baseball now?
00:20:19.359 --> 00:20:23.440
They're talking about having a computerized strike zone and things like that.
00:20:23.599 --> 00:20:30.799
Do you see officials eventually being archaic and just simply not even being involved and replaced by technology?
00:20:31.039 --> 00:20:32.160
They have a game like that.
00:20:32.240 --> 00:20:34.160
It's called Madden 2020.
00:20:34.559 --> 00:20:39.359
It's a video replay, and you can you can get that game and you can do all kinds of things with it.
00:20:39.599 --> 00:20:42.559
I hope it never gets away from a a people game.
00:20:42.720 --> 00:20:46.799
It's getting closer to being away from it now with all the replays.
00:20:46.960 --> 00:20:51.039
I I I hope it doesn't get to a point where we're doing everything on the replay.
00:20:51.200 --> 00:20:52.400
That's not the football game.
00:20:52.480 --> 00:20:53.599
The game is people.
00:20:53.839 --> 00:20:58.240
And we're people and they're people, and it does happen that you're gonna make a mistake.
00:20:58.559 --> 00:21:00.079
Coach have told me for years.
00:21:00.319 --> 00:21:08.079
So a mistake is made, so we'll next time it'll the the the ball bounce in our favor and we'll get the break.
00:21:08.319 --> 00:21:12.799
Jim, do you do don't worry about the ones that go against you, but just play the game and bounce back.
00:21:12.960 --> 00:21:19.839
And and this is one of the things that I've talked to people uh in the in the corporate world about uh in sales or management.
00:21:20.240 --> 00:21:22.000
Don't worry about a thing that makes a mistake.
00:21:22.160 --> 00:21:22.720
Move on.
00:21:22.960 --> 00:21:23.839
Forget about that.
00:21:24.000 --> 00:21:27.279
Learn from it, but forget about that and sales.
00:21:27.359 --> 00:21:29.759
If you don't make the sale, why didn't you make the sale?
00:21:30.000 --> 00:21:31.599
Well, here's a reason for it.
00:21:31.759 --> 00:21:33.200
Let's see if we can improve.
00:21:33.440 --> 00:21:40.240
I think uh players and coaches learn a lot more from mistakes that are made during a game than from the things they do right.
00:21:40.319 --> 00:21:44.960
They made a nice long pass and everything, but they made a pass that was incomplete.
00:21:45.119 --> 00:21:46.480
How can we improve that?
00:21:46.640 --> 00:21:53.200
So when you have a mistake made, you learn better from from your mistake than you do from just constantly being successful.
00:21:53.519 --> 00:21:59.839
Jim, you know, I think you articulated that so beautifully, and I find, and I I'd love to get your take on this, and I know you do a lot of work with companies.
00:22:00.960 --> 00:22:16.400
Why why is it so hard for uh professionals, A, to be accountable and own their mistakes, and B uh uh to take that kind of mindset, that growth mindset you're talking about, and embrace failure and learn from mistakes.
00:22:16.720 --> 00:22:19.359
What are you seeing as the challenge behind them doing those things?
00:22:20.000 --> 00:22:20.480
Ego.
00:22:21.200 --> 00:22:21.359
Yeah.
00:22:21.680 --> 00:22:27.039
Uh Ken Blanchard told me a long time ago, ego is edging God out.
00:22:27.599 --> 00:22:32.160
And and you've got to push your ego aside and be able to admit your mistake.
00:22:32.480 --> 00:22:43.759
When we have a mistake in a game that'd work and and Supervisor McNally would call me and say, You know, look at this play and and so on, so you made this and you should have been doing this.
00:22:43.920 --> 00:22:48.000
But what caused you to look here instead of there, trying to learn from it?
00:22:48.079 --> 00:22:50.240
And you've got to admit that, yeah, Mr.
00:22:50.400 --> 00:22:53.279
McNally, I I I did look at that a different way.
00:22:53.440 --> 00:22:54.880
I'll do it different next time.
00:22:55.200 --> 00:22:57.599
Learning from mistakes is what life is all about.
00:22:57.839 --> 00:23:03.119
And and of course Lombardi has been quoted so many times, failure is not getting knocked down.
00:23:03.359 --> 00:23:06.000
Failure is failure is not getting back up.
00:23:06.319 --> 00:23:15.039
So when you have a mistake, you've got to bounce back, move on, forget about it, learn from it, but don't carry it with you the whole time and think about the mistake.
00:23:15.200 --> 00:23:17.119
Think about what you can do to do it better.
00:23:17.839 --> 00:23:19.359
Words to live by indeed, Jim.
00:23:19.440 --> 00:23:23.039
So when we come back, when we come back, Jim joins us for the next segment.
00:23:23.200 --> 00:23:32.400
We're gonna talk more about his experience in corporate America, and we're gonna also talk about if and how he gets impacted by home crowds and the emotion during games.
00:23:32.880 --> 00:23:47.039
And Jim, you know, when we the other thing I'd like to cover when we come back is also uh kind of your expectations of communication um between coaches and yourself and between athletes yourself and where you share some latitude or offer latitude and where you don't.
00:23:47.200 --> 00:23:48.640
So we'll be back after the break.
00:23:48.880 --> 00:23:51.279
I'm with Jim Tunney, Dean of NFL referees.
00:23:51.440 --> 00:23:53.680
I'm your host, Mark Altman, for I communicate.
00:24:48.400 --> 00:24:50.240
Jim, I want to talk about emotion.
00:24:50.319 --> 00:24:55.519
And um one of my favorite things to work with people of all ages on is emotional intelligence.
00:24:55.680 --> 00:25:02.960
And I don't know if you heard, but uh four days ago in Massachusetts a hockey coach attacked a referee.
00:25:03.039 --> 00:25:04.480
Are you familiar with that video?
00:25:05.279 --> 00:25:07.279
I I saw it one time, I think yes.
00:25:07.839 --> 00:25:08.079
Okay.
00:25:08.480 --> 00:25:12.000
So, you know, you used to be a coach, you know, coach kids.
00:25:12.079 --> 00:25:21.759
And I'm just trying to understand from your perspective what what goes through the from a from uh boundaries from a barrier?
00:25:22.000 --> 00:25:23.519
What the heck happens to fans?
00:25:23.599 --> 00:25:29.599
I mean, I know they want to see their teams win, but how does how does it go from the crossing that kind of line in your mind?
00:25:29.920 --> 00:25:33.279
I think it helps you if you've been a coach and an official.
00:25:33.519 --> 00:25:37.920
I I was doing both at the same time at the high school level when I first started.
00:25:38.079 --> 00:25:48.559
And having been a coach, I can understand the emotion because I was an emotional guy on the on the bench as a coach too in high school basketball, and and you you do get excited.
00:25:48.720 --> 00:25:55.039
As a fish, you have to understand that coaches are gonna get excited, they're gonna do things and say things that they really don't mean.
00:25:55.200 --> 00:26:05.519
And don't don't take them personally, don't take the fact that they're they're they're saying the fact that your mother and father were never really married or whatever kind of words they use to describe.
00:26:06.160 --> 00:26:07.359
You have to understand that.
00:26:07.759 --> 00:26:09.359
You don't have to take it.
00:26:09.599 --> 00:26:12.000
You can walk over and just say, That's enough.
00:26:12.160 --> 00:26:16.240
Uh in fact, uh uh you mentioned earlier about the books that I've written.
00:26:16.400 --> 00:26:19.440
The first book I wrote was called Impartial Judgment.
00:26:19.680 --> 00:26:28.240
And I wanted to call the book uh because I don't care who wins, but the publisher in New York didn't like that title, so he called Impartial Judgment.
00:26:28.319 --> 00:26:39.519
I wrote a whole chapter on about John Madden and he called it Ode to a teddy bear because he was all over the place yelling and screaming and waving his hands and all that sort of thing.
00:26:39.680 --> 00:26:44.480
And John I had an understanding early on, he's been a good friend over the years.
00:26:44.559 --> 00:26:51.039
Uh we were in Los Angeles and he was very upset about a call right near the end of the first half.
00:26:51.200 --> 00:26:55.759
He came running on the field and grabbed me by the arm and was yelling, screaming.
00:26:56.000 --> 00:26:57.519
I stopped in my tracks.
00:26:57.680 --> 00:27:00.160
I was gonna I was right in the middle of the field.
00:27:00.319 --> 00:27:03.279
I said, Coach, leave the field right now.
00:27:03.599 --> 00:27:08.079
Right now, don't say anything else, or you're not coming back in the second half.
00:27:08.319 --> 00:27:11.519
And he left at the beginning of the second half as we're coming on the field.
00:27:11.680 --> 00:27:13.599
He grabbed Mary and said, I'm sorry.
00:27:13.680 --> 00:27:17.279
I said, you know, I just get emotional and I I didn't mean it and all that.
00:27:17.519 --> 00:27:18.720
I said, John, I understand.
00:27:19.200 --> 00:27:22.960
But you can't make a public display in front of 77,000 people.
00:27:23.200 --> 00:27:30.400
They think that they don't think you're inviting me for dinner, they're trying to trying to get on get on me on your side.
00:27:30.559 --> 00:27:34.559
And I I I just it it's it's knocking off sometimes.
00:27:34.799 --> 00:27:41.200
The thing about uh John when I wrote the first book and I wrote that chapter about John Madden owed to a teddy bear.
00:27:41.519 --> 00:27:44.960
Um, he said the thing, uh he said, Who are these guys?
00:27:45.119 --> 00:27:48.480
What kid grows up wanting to be an official for God's sake?
00:27:48.720 --> 00:27:51.680
And so uh John now always got along.
00:27:51.759 --> 00:27:58.240
He said the thing he said in the book, he said the thing I like about Tim Tunning is that he said he would come over and talk with you.
00:27:58.400 --> 00:28:00.400
And that's the thing about communication.
00:28:00.559 --> 00:28:02.400
Don't be afraid to talk to the coach.
00:28:02.559 --> 00:28:05.279
You don't have to stand there and let him berate you all the time.
00:28:05.519 --> 00:28:16.079
He may say a couple of things, and I've said to many coaches, including uh Tom Landry and including John Wooden when I did basketball at Pauling Pavilion, I'll say, That's enough.
00:28:16.319 --> 00:28:17.279
That's enough.
00:28:17.519 --> 00:28:18.720
And then walk away.
00:28:18.880 --> 00:28:26.960
And when you you say it with authority and look a right square in the eye and not being afraid of them, uh that helps you communicate.
00:28:27.200 --> 00:28:28.319
Communicate with people.
00:28:28.400 --> 00:28:39.279
So in communication, it's important you you're willing to talk to people and if they say something that is derogatory, uh let it go for a minute, but then you need to stop it after a while.
00:28:39.680 --> 00:28:45.839
Jim, I I know you do a lot of work with organizations on leadership and peak performance, and you've got me thinking as you were answering that.
00:28:46.160 --> 00:28:48.079
Let's talk about body language for a minute.
00:28:48.240 --> 00:29:11.920
You know, from your perspective, you know, we're taught to make eye contact and and have good posture and traditional body language, but I'm talking more about you know, when you when you do when you are assertive and say that's enough, you know, is it sometimes better just to to take eye contact away, or does the eye contact, you know, from a communication perspective in your world, is it better to make it towards the end or is it better to not make it towards the end?
00:29:12.319 --> 00:29:14.720
It it can b work both ways.
00:29:14.799 --> 00:29:20.880
Uh sometimes you don't need to go over to the coach, sometimes you need to just be on the field.
00:29:21.039 --> 00:29:24.079
But I call it I call it personal power.
00:29:24.319 --> 00:29:27.279
I call it personal power versus position power.
00:29:27.440 --> 00:29:30.640
You can't walk on the field with a referee and say, hey, you know who I am?
00:29:30.799 --> 00:29:35.119
I'm the referee, and I'm in charge of this game, and you better not step out of line.
00:29:35.519 --> 00:29:36.559
That's not gonna work.
00:29:36.720 --> 00:29:44.720
But personal power means that you can take some abuse to a point, to the point where it's it's the it's taking away the the element of the game.
00:29:44.880 --> 00:29:47.599
And then you need to shut it off and walk away.
00:29:47.759 --> 00:29:55.119
And that's the thing about football, you can walk out in the middle of the field sometimes in basketball, they're right there screaming and hollering and yelling at you.
00:29:55.279 --> 00:30:06.000
And when that happened to me, and I worked basketball for twenty five years at at the college level, I would I would go over near the coach when he was on the bench or screaming and hollering.
00:30:06.240 --> 00:30:09.359
I'd be right the closer you get to him, the less he yelled.
00:30:09.440 --> 00:30:11.920
When you're further away the more he yelled at you.
00:30:12.079 --> 00:30:16.319
And I thought, well, my personal power is I can I can handle it.
00:30:16.480 --> 00:30:20.319
He knows I can handle it, and I'll just shut it off by being close to him.
00:30:20.559 --> 00:30:33.440
So i it depends on the situation, but but feeling good about yourself and knowing you're doing the right thing and not listening to the the abuse that may be coming your way, just just shake it off and just keep on going.
00:30:33.759 --> 00:30:47.119
Jim, you know, I think one of the common uh assumptions about officiating is that officials get swept up by the emotion of the home crowd and you know, hence the home advantage and so c could you could you speak to a couple of things?
00:30:47.279 --> 00:31:01.519
First of all, you know, should we look at it as look, officials are human, it's possible from time to time it influences calls and they swept they're swept up, or was your point of view that you were very mindful and conscious to not let that happen?
00:31:01.759 --> 00:31:02.799
Where do you sit on that?
00:31:03.200 --> 00:31:04.799
Very mindful about it.
00:31:05.119 --> 00:31:13.680
In fact, uh in in terms of they call them homers and you call them in favor of the home crowd, and I never did like that expression.
00:31:13.839 --> 00:31:19.440
And then they say, well, now you call that one then, you call one of the little and you're evening it up.
00:31:20.319 --> 00:31:23.920
Evening up is like trying to even up your side buttons when you're shaving.
00:31:24.079 --> 00:31:26.880
You never quite get the same the same all the way.
00:31:27.039 --> 00:31:28.799
You can never even things up.
00:31:28.960 --> 00:31:30.079
Call it as it is.
00:31:30.240 --> 00:31:37.200
If it was a wrong call, you can't say, yeah, that was a wrong call, I'll take care of it the next the next quarter, I'll even it up.
00:31:37.279 --> 00:31:38.240
No, no, no, no.
00:31:38.400 --> 00:31:39.839
Don't try to ever even up.
00:31:39.920 --> 00:31:41.440
Just call it the way you see it.
00:31:41.519 --> 00:31:44.400
And call it and make the call and then move on.
00:31:44.559 --> 00:31:45.440
Don't worry about it.
00:31:45.519 --> 00:31:50.720
If you've called against this team that was a happen turn out to be a wrong call, it happens.
00:31:50.799 --> 00:31:51.839
It's gonna happen.
00:31:52.000 --> 00:31:53.599
And you can't worry about that.
00:31:53.680 --> 00:31:58.319
Uh players make mistakes, coaches make mistakes, officials go make mistakes.
00:31:58.559 --> 00:32:01.680
Jim, what do you see today when you watch officials on TV?
00:32:01.759 --> 00:32:04.160
Frankly, it could be in basketball, football, whatever.
00:32:04.400 --> 00:32:12.640
What do you see today that you'll you might see a certain behavior of an official that you're sitting at home scratching your head going, I can't believe they're doing that?
00:32:12.720 --> 00:32:15.359
What are some things you're seeing that scratch your head?
00:32:15.680 --> 00:32:19.039
You mentioned it earlier, Mark, it it's the body language.
00:32:19.200 --> 00:32:24.559
And and uh it's like giving a signal for a referee in in football.
00:32:24.799 --> 00:32:36.960
I was the trainer for the NFL for a few years, and I always said to the uh watching, particularly the referee, the guy on the white hat, the crew chief, the one who gives the signals on television, I said, the camera's gonna find you.
00:32:37.039 --> 00:32:53.759
Come over to a spot of the field, stand still, be together, and look right at the camera, look right at that red light on that camera, and look right into the guy sitting in his living room and say, holding, number fifty-six and and and say it with confidence.
00:32:53.920 --> 00:32:56.160
But your body language is very, very important.
00:32:56.480 --> 00:32:58.559
If it doesn't look like you're sure of yourself.
00:32:58.720 --> 00:33:01.119
In fact, let me digress to Lombardi for a minute.
00:33:01.359 --> 00:33:03.759
Coach Lombardi was very tough on officials.
00:33:04.000 --> 00:33:05.200
Very tough on officials.
00:33:05.359 --> 00:33:07.039
Only there are two things to look for.
00:33:07.119 --> 00:33:10.000
Number one, were you in the right position to make the call.
00:33:10.160 --> 00:33:13.039
He knew who you should be to make that kind of call.
00:33:13.200 --> 00:33:15.680
And number two, did you make it with confidence?
00:33:15.759 --> 00:33:17.599
Or did you look like you were hesitant?
00:33:17.759 --> 00:33:19.920
Did you not throw the flag with authority?
00:33:20.240 --> 00:33:23.519
Did you look like you were unsure of what you were doing?
00:33:23.680 --> 00:33:26.480
If you were unsure of what you were doing, he was after you.
00:33:26.720 --> 00:33:30.480
If you were in the right position and you made the call away, he was after you.
00:33:30.720 --> 00:33:32.400
Other than that, it was okay.
00:33:32.720 --> 00:33:36.880
If you called against the Packers, I've called lots of fouls against the Packers.
00:33:36.960 --> 00:33:43.039
And it and it was okay with Coastal Marty because he knew you were in the right position and you made the call with confidence.
00:33:43.200 --> 00:33:52.319
Your body language, as you mentioned earlier, Mike, is is very important to have confidence in what you're doing, standing wreck and moving where you know you're supposed to be.
00:33:52.880 --> 00:34:04.000
So, Jim, you know, one last question on this is you know, I w in that same article I was referring to in 2008 with you on the Times, you talked about how it's easy for officials to get intimidated.
00:34:04.079 --> 00:34:08.079
And my question really speaks to the work you do with organizations and your officiating.
00:34:08.880 --> 00:34:17.280
Look, it's one thing for you to mentor um a CEO or you to mentor another official and say, look, it's very important to not get intimidated.
00:34:17.360 --> 00:34:19.519
It's very important to have good body language.
00:34:19.920 --> 00:34:24.800
But you know, building the habit and incorporating the habit is something totally different.
00:34:25.039 --> 00:34:30.159
How are you able to build some of these habits to continue to develop as a professional?
00:34:30.480 --> 00:34:34.719
I think it's a secret, and it's really not a secret, but everybody uses that expression.
00:34:35.119 --> 00:34:36.800
The secret is preparation.
00:34:37.119 --> 00:34:43.760
Prepare yourself so well, I've often thought that I want to know the rules better than anybody else in that stadium.
00:34:44.000 --> 00:34:48.960
80,000 people, coaches, players, I want to know the rule better than they do.
00:34:49.119 --> 00:34:52.800
I want to know why the rule is in there and how we enforce the rule.
00:34:52.960 --> 00:35:04.559
And the preparation that you spent prior to the game, preparation you spent as a CEO prior to your meeting, as a salesperson prior to the sales, preparation is vital.
00:35:04.719 --> 00:35:11.039
I'm always reminded of the fact that Noah built that arc before it started to rain.
00:35:11.679 --> 00:35:18.079
And so if you can go into the situation well prepared, your confidence level is at a higher level.
00:35:18.320 --> 00:35:18.559
Indeed.
00:35:18.719 --> 00:35:19.440
And that's important.
00:35:19.599 --> 00:35:23.679
The confidence of my language comes from your thorough preparation.
00:35:24.000 --> 00:35:28.480
All right, Jim, I want to quickly ask you for a quick comment on three games that you officiated.
00:35:28.639 --> 00:35:30.079
First of all, the ice bowl.
00:35:30.320 --> 00:35:31.440
Question for you.
00:35:31.840 --> 00:35:34.480
Have you ever been in an environment that cold?
00:35:34.960 --> 00:35:36.880
Mark, I live in California.
00:35:37.119 --> 00:35:38.639
My blood is very thin.
00:35:39.199 --> 00:35:42.079
And I wanted we flew into Green Bay on Saturday.
00:35:42.159 --> 00:35:43.280
It was a beautiful evening.
00:35:43.519 --> 00:35:47.519
Went dinner that night, the moon was out, it was everything was fine.
00:35:47.679 --> 00:35:49.840
The next day the temperature dropped.
00:35:50.079 --> 00:35:52.320
We we didn't we we were not prepared.
00:35:52.480 --> 00:35:53.840
I wasn't prepared.
00:35:54.400 --> 00:36:01.599
So the entire crew of six went downtown to Green Bay and knocked on the Army Navy store.
00:36:01.679 --> 00:36:03.280
It was December 31st.
00:36:03.440 --> 00:36:05.280
The guy was doing his inventory.
00:36:05.440 --> 00:36:09.519
If he wasn't December 31st, he wouldn't have been there on a Sunday morning.
00:36:09.679 --> 00:36:11.119
We got him to open the door.
00:36:11.199 --> 00:36:12.800
He didn't want to open the door.
00:36:12.960 --> 00:36:17.679
We bought everything we could, long johns and gloves and everything we could to keep warm.
00:36:17.840 --> 00:36:21.360
So it was just it was very difficult to work that game.
00:36:21.679 --> 00:36:23.360
Okay, next game, the catch.
00:36:23.519 --> 00:36:26.400
Um the significance of that Dwight Clark play.
00:36:27.039 --> 00:36:38.639
Do you, when you're officiating a game like that and you see that, do does it ever cross your path what the historical significance of a play will be right then and there as before time unfolds?
00:36:38.960 --> 00:36:40.880
Number one, I didn't see the catch.
00:36:41.039 --> 00:36:44.880
Because I was my job was following the the quarterback, Montana.
00:36:45.039 --> 00:36:45.199
Okay.
00:36:45.360 --> 00:36:47.440
And then Joe Montana rolled to the right.
00:36:47.679 --> 00:36:51.039
As he threw the ball, he got knocked down by Ed Two Tall Jones.
00:36:51.280 --> 00:36:52.960
My job was looking at him.
00:36:53.119 --> 00:36:56.239
And Joe was on the ground, he looked up, he said, What happened?
00:36:56.400 --> 00:36:58.400
I said, You threw it in the stand.
00:37:00.480 --> 00:37:00.960
That's great.
00:37:03.760 --> 00:37:04.639
We call him DC.
00:37:04.880 --> 00:37:06.400
DC caught it for a touchdown.
00:37:06.559 --> 00:37:07.039
That's correct.
00:37:07.360 --> 00:37:11.440
But but I never thought about the fact that it was it was that significant.
00:37:11.599 --> 00:37:19.840
It's one of the top four games in the history of the NFL that ESPN had on the other night, or networked had on the other night.
00:37:19.920 --> 00:37:22.559
But it's uh it was a historic game.
00:37:22.639 --> 00:37:32.960
And and both of them, Joe Montana, Dwight Clark, God love him, Dwight, who passed away with ALS, but but uh wonderful people that work on the field with very pleasant on the field.
00:37:33.280 --> 00:37:35.679
All right, Jim, we're gonna go come back for one more segment.
00:37:35.840 --> 00:37:37.599
Thank you for continuing to be with us.
00:37:37.760 --> 00:37:40.719
And uh uh thank you, Jim Tunney, for staying with us.
00:37:40.800 --> 00:37:42.719
I'm Mark Altman for iCommunicate.
00:37:42.800 --> 00:37:44.639
We'll be back right after the break.
00:38:04.079 --> 00:38:07.840
On Full Service Radio, 830 WRF.
00:38:08.400 --> 00:38:10.159
Once again, here's your host.
00:38:12.320 --> 00:38:13.760
Welcome back to iCommunicate.
00:38:13.840 --> 00:38:23.360
I'm with uh Jim Tutney, uh former NFL official data referees, three-time author, uh more than three-time author, and many other accolades to his resume.
00:38:23.679 --> 00:38:30.960
Jim, uh before we go to our final topic, I do want to ask you about one other game, uh the fumble, the game with Cleveland and Denver.
00:38:31.119 --> 00:38:49.599
And you know, my question for you about that game is when you know we use the term choke in sports a lot, when when players make mistakes in the clutch, did your heart, you know, uh even though you're an official and you can't be partial to either team, when's when you see plays like that and guys disappoint, does your heart break for them?
00:38:49.920 --> 00:38:51.679
What goes through your mind when you see stuff like that?
00:38:52.079 --> 00:38:56.320
Let me go back uh for a second before I answer that regarding the catch.
00:38:56.480 --> 00:39:02.000
First of all, uh between Joe Montana and Dwight Clark, Montana doesn't call it the catch.
00:39:02.079 --> 00:39:03.760
He calls it the throw.
00:39:05.360 --> 00:39:06.960
That makes sense, not surprised.
00:39:08.000 --> 00:39:11.760
And the second thing about the importance of the game, the game wasn't over.
00:39:11.920 --> 00:39:29.199
We still had about a minute and a half left, and and uh Danny Danny White of the qu quarterback of the Cowboys was coming to he wanted to come back down the field like Montana did, and the Cowboys wanted to win the game, and he fumbled the ball, uh, and he wanted to catch call an incomplete pass.
00:39:29.440 --> 00:39:31.920
I said, No, no, Danny, it was a fumble.
00:39:32.000 --> 00:39:43.360
Now replay was was uh uh not available at the time, so there was no looking at it, it was just his word and mine, and of course it turned out as you look at the replay, it definitely was a fumble.
00:39:43.599 --> 00:40:03.280
Regarding the the fumble again in in uh in Mile Hyde Stadium before they built this new stadium between the the Cleveland Browns and the and the Denver Broncos, uh I worked the game before the year before in Cleveland L Way made that eighty-five yard drive to win the game.
00:40:03.679 --> 00:40:10.079
But you know, when you see a a pummel like Ernest Spiner, what a wonderful, wonderful guy Ernest Spiner is.
00:40:10.239 --> 00:40:17.920
But just before that, they're down the goal, they're down the what fifteen, twenty yard line, and Bernie Kozar calls Kyle out.
00:40:18.159 --> 00:40:21.840
And he went over to talk to Marty Schottenheim, was the coach of the Browns.
00:40:22.000 --> 00:40:26.159
And when he came back, I mean the the place is just tense as ever.
00:40:26.559 --> 00:40:40.400
Here's the driving Browns coming in to win the game, and all you gotta do is hand it to Ernest Blair, and he'll get in the end zone and it's over and all when Bernie came back in, I said, uh, does it help you to go over there and talk to the coach?
00:40:40.639 --> 00:40:43.280
He said, No, it makes you feel better when I do that.
00:40:45.280 --> 00:40:50.960
We we it was all it it it's a game, Mark, and and so we have fun with it out there.
00:40:51.119 --> 00:41:07.440
But when Bernie when Ernie Minor fumble the ball and Denver recovered right then, yeah, I I watched uh Minor go over to the bench and we had a little time out there, and the the players were all over him, patting him on the back, it's okay, shake it off, don't worry about it.
00:41:07.599 --> 00:41:17.840
But China was a great gesture in terms they lost the game on that fumble because now all all uh Denver had to do was just hang on the ball for a short time and they won the game.
00:41:18.000 --> 00:41:25.679
But they were they were patting Ernie on the burning spider on the back and making it feel good, and it's okay and shake it off.
00:41:26.079 --> 00:41:28.239
You don't lose the game on one play.
00:41:28.400 --> 00:41:32.639
You lose the game because you didn't play as well as the other team, and that's the difference.
00:41:33.119 --> 00:41:33.440
Indeed.
00:41:33.760 --> 00:41:38.960
So so Jim wanna want to shift to two uh two final thoughts uh before we wrap up today.
00:41:39.119 --> 00:41:41.920
First of all, I want to talk about coaching youth sports.
00:41:42.079 --> 00:41:44.400
You know, you've you've coached for many years in your career.
00:41:44.559 --> 00:41:51.679
My question is what's changed, you know, in terms of, you know, kids are playing sports all year round, AAU and things like that.
00:41:51.920 --> 00:41:55.039
You know, what advice do you give coaches of youth sports today?
00:41:55.119 --> 00:41:59.840
What are the things that you see coaches not doing that you're trying to encourage them to do?
00:42:00.239 --> 00:42:04.559
A friend of mine who played for the Baltimore coach named Joe Erdman, you might remember that name.
00:42:04.639 --> 00:42:04.800
Yep.
00:42:05.039 --> 00:42:08.159
Joe Erman wrote a book that I feel very, very strong about.
00:42:08.320 --> 00:42:10.320
You coach from the inside out.
00:42:10.639 --> 00:42:24.000
You're coaching a player because he I I can't remember and all the basketball and all the sports I played in high school college, I can't remember if we won championships and what a record was and all that.
00:42:24.079 --> 00:42:26.400
But I do remember the friendships that I made.
00:42:26.559 --> 00:42:32.800
And the people who helped me and when times were tough, and the times I got to help people when they made a mistake.
00:42:33.119 --> 00:42:35.199
That's the thing that you learn about sports.
00:42:35.360 --> 00:42:38.000
And that's what coaches uh need to think about.
00:42:38.159 --> 00:42:42.800
And fortunately today we have too many coaches that have never been educators.
00:42:42.960 --> 00:42:45.840
They didn't go through the program of being educators.
00:42:46.079 --> 00:42:53.599
In order to teach in in coach in in Los Angeles City Schools where I was for a number for twenty five years.
00:42:53.920 --> 00:43:00.239
You you gotta go through the teaching program and you gotta go and come in as an educator, not just a coach.
00:43:00.400 --> 00:43:04.719
And so what you're coaching kids is from the inside out, how they can learn from mistakes.
00:43:04.960 --> 00:43:13.760
So you lose the game 'cause the kid didn't do what he's supposed to that you've been teaching him for for for ten weeks and all of a sudden he made a mistake.
00:43:14.159 --> 00:43:15.679
He didn't want to make that mistake.
00:43:15.840 --> 00:43:19.679
Nobody goes into the game saying, Well, let's see, today I'm gonna make a mistake.
00:43:19.840 --> 00:43:20.320
No, no.
00:43:20.559 --> 00:43:22.320
You just avoid that all you can.
00:43:22.559 --> 00:43:27.119
You need to help people uh re recover from times that that are tough for them.
00:43:27.840 --> 00:43:36.400
Jim, I I want to ask, I know you do a lot of work, you know, Jim, as a as a national trainer and speaker, I want to talk, I know you do a lot of work around motivation.
00:43:36.559 --> 00:43:43.119
And my question for you is w were you ever underestimated at any point in your career?
00:43:43.280 --> 00:43:49.280
Did you use that as a driver for motivation and regardless, how do you motivate yourself?
00:43:50.000 --> 00:43:53.599
Well, first of all, I I like the term inspiration rather than motivation.
00:43:53.840 --> 00:43:54.000
Okay.
00:43:54.320 --> 00:43:56.079
I don't think you can motivate anybody.
00:43:56.239 --> 00:44:01.840
You can inspire 'em to do something, but the motivation from from Everybody has to come from within.
00:44:02.079 --> 00:44:07.280
You can get ideas from other people, but in order for you to move forward, you have to motivate yourself.
00:44:07.440 --> 00:44:08.639
You can learn from other people.
00:44:08.719 --> 00:44:11.360
And that's where the word inspiration comes in.
00:44:11.519 --> 00:44:16.480
And for the second part of it, mm, I I I never thought I was very good at what I did.
00:44:16.559 --> 00:44:24.559
I I I thought I was I was uh just uh uh another guy playing basketball in high school or or baseball in college.
00:44:24.719 --> 00:44:30.079
And uh I never thought of myself in any sense of the word as a superstar.
00:44:30.320 --> 00:44:33.679
So I was always thought that uh I was I was lucky to be there.
00:44:33.920 --> 00:44:36.559
I was glad to have a glove on to be a first baseman.
00:44:36.719 --> 00:44:45.199
I was glad to to be bring the ball down the court as a as a uh what do you call shooting guards or or point guards or whatever you want to call them.
00:44:45.360 --> 00:44:46.719
I was just lucky to be there.
00:44:46.880 --> 00:44:52.320
I I was very fortunate to to play with some really good players and and that helped a lot.
00:44:52.559 --> 00:44:55.760
But uh I had to build that confidence in myself.
00:44:55.920 --> 00:45:03.760
I sat on the bench marked a lot more times than I played, unfortunately, and and I wanted to play every day, every time, every game.
00:45:03.840 --> 00:45:07.760
I want to be the guy on the floor, and it didn't always happen that way.
00:45:07.840 --> 00:45:11.360
But it's important to build your confidence and maintain it.
00:45:11.599 --> 00:45:15.920
In fact, Herm Edwards is a good friend of mine, coach of Arizona State football now.
00:45:16.159 --> 00:45:22.559
He said he said, You can lose your confidence, but don't ever lose your momentum.
00:45:24.079 --> 00:45:24.960
Interesting.
00:45:25.280 --> 00:45:27.360
What what do you want your legacy to be, Jim?
00:45:27.519 --> 00:45:32.000
You know, um how do you want how do you want to be known for as a person, as a professional?
00:45:32.079 --> 00:45:33.199
What are your thoughts?
00:45:33.760 --> 00:45:36.079
Did I do the best I could with other people?
00:45:36.480 --> 00:45:39.440
Did I help them become better at their lives?
00:45:39.840 --> 00:45:50.159
Not just better basketball players or better hitters in baseball or better better uh run fullbacks or running backs in in football.
00:45:50.480 --> 00:45:53.440
Did I did I make them better as an individual?
00:45:53.599 --> 00:45:57.280
Did I help them improve their lives and become successful people?
00:45:58.719 --> 00:46:03.039
Do you have a favorite official today, Jim, that you're that uh you enjoy watching?
00:46:04.719 --> 00:46:10.960
Today's uh there's so many good officials uh in the NFL now that that aren't getting the credit for being good officials.
00:46:11.119 --> 00:46:19.360
Um Jerry Mark Bright has been a friend of mine, he's a former NFL official who worked I think three or four football r rules Super Bowl games.
00:46:19.519 --> 00:46:22.559
Uh Jerry's just terrific at what he did.
00:46:22.639 --> 00:46:29.760
Uh and Hockey Lee is very famous for his bodybuilding, but he's also a very good official and a very good rules man.
00:46:29.840 --> 00:46:36.079
And look at officials and how to also they not only know the rules, but interpret them properly.
00:46:36.400 --> 00:46:37.039
That's awesome.
00:46:37.119 --> 00:46:38.800
Okay, and final question for you today, Jim.
00:46:39.039 --> 00:46:41.199
Thank you again so much for joining the show.
00:46:41.360 --> 00:46:46.159
Uh, is most fond NFL memory of your career?
00:46:47.360 --> 00:47:01.280
Oh, Mark, I guess after uh five hundred NFL games, it has to be uh Super Bowl 11, played January 9th, uh, 1977 in the Rolls Bowl in Pasadena, California.
00:47:01.519 --> 00:47:05.840
I grew up just four miles from that Rolls Bowl, a little town called San Gabriel.
00:47:06.000 --> 00:47:06.239
Yep.
00:47:06.400 --> 00:47:08.639
And I I would go to the Rolls Bowl.
00:47:08.800 --> 00:47:10.960
My dad was an official, as I mentioned before.
00:47:11.119 --> 00:47:18.639
I would go I get to sit on the bench in the games my dad were working there when he was working of fishing for Pasadena Junior College.
00:47:18.960 --> 00:47:22.719
A little kid named Jackie Robinson was playing for Passadia Junior College.
00:47:22.800 --> 00:47:25.599
And so Jackie's just ten years older than I.
00:47:25.760 --> 00:47:30.719
And I got to sit on the bench alongside of Jackie Robinson when he was just Jackie Robinson.
00:47:30.960 --> 00:47:31.920
That's unbelievable.
00:47:32.159 --> 00:47:34.639
And and uh and be able to see that man.
00:47:34.800 --> 00:47:41.360
And then I got a chance to work through Bowl 11, January 9th, 1977, between Oakland and Minnesota.
00:47:41.519 --> 00:47:43.920
I worked in the same place where my dad had worked.
00:47:44.000 --> 00:47:46.559
That was probably the biggest one of the biggest thrills for me.
00:47:46.880 --> 00:47:49.039
Jim, thank you again for your time.
00:47:49.199 --> 00:47:52.239
Really look forward to having the opportunity to meet you at some point.
00:47:52.400 --> 00:47:54.320
I hope you have a wonderful rest of the week.
00:47:54.559 --> 00:47:59.760
For Mark Altman, I am the host of Mindset Go, or founder of Mindset Go, host of iCommunicate.
00:48:00.000 --> 00:48:01.519
Hope you have a great rest of the week.
00:48:02.159 --> 00:48:02.800
Starting off.
00:48:03.199 --> 00:48:03.840
Thanks, guys.
