WEBVTT
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You'd assume co-founder conflict is a personal problem.
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Two people who just didn't get along.
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It's not.
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Research says that at the center of about 65% of high potential startup failures, it's not a personality clash.
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It's a missing vitamin at the exact moment, a little prevention would have cost almost nothing.
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Zoom out, and the same shortage shows up everywhere.
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The World Justice Project estimates more than 5.1 billion people globally can't get meaningful institutional disp support when a dispute escalates.
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When trust in the referee collapses at that scale, everyone downstream is stuck choosing between a courtroom and just living with it.
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Welcome to iCommunicate.
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I'm Mark Altman, founder of Mindset Go in your host.
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My guest today spent three decades practicing law in the Boston area before a simple realization changed his direction and that of many others.
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That question led him to explore AI's potential for helping people at scale rather than continuing to work inside a system he spent a career navigating.
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Today he's the co-founder of Josie.ai and serves as its chief Sherpa great title, guiding people and organizations through resolving conflict and reaching agreement on a platform trained on real pre-litigation disputes, family enterprise conflicts, and founder agreements.
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Mark Stiles, welcome to iCommunicate.
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Wow, welcome.
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I am feeling very welcome.
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Thank you, Mark.
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I've never been with a Sherpa.
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This is a first.
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Yeah.
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It was, you know, we we put a lot of thought into a lot of things.
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And that one we put a lot of thought into.
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I used to refer in my practice as Success Sherpas.
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We were simply success sherpas.
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And, you know, with our with our platform, which I know we'll get into, um, you know, it's not specific for any profession.
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It's not specific for lawyers or mediators.
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You know, we want to have that third-party neutral to be anyone, you know, a trusted uh rabbi or pastor, a trusted uncle or community leader.
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And uh we thought Sherpa would be the perfect term because we're helping you carry that heavy load up that hill.
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Love it.
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Yeah.
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So I want to, I just want to caution our audience today, based on the description I read, when we get into Mark's platform for conflict, it's really incredible.
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And I want to tease it.
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We're gonna, you're gonna have to wait a couple of minutes to hear the rest of this, but I want to tease it by saying that he is solving a few problems with conflict.
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Yeah, but the tease is one of the problems he's solving, and we'll explain this, is he's getting people to come to the table that would typically not want to come to the table.
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And it's really interesting and unique how he does it.
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So we'll get to that in a moment.
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But Mark, I I want to start out by asking you know, before the show today, I looked up what is conflict.
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I I actually went into Claude and I said, hey, what is the textbook definition of conflict?
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And what what it said is there's three, there are three points it raised.
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One is positions, what each side says they want, interests, what each side actually needs underneath the position, and then the perceptions.
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And I know this is a really big part of your solution too, which is what each side believes about the other side's motive, often the source of the real friction.
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So does that sound right to you?
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Like, like not does it sound right, but is that your definition of conflict?
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No, it's Uncle Claude's.
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I like to refer to him as Uncle Claude and uh and attorney Chad for ChatGPT because they're so helpful.
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They're thought partners.
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Um and um, you know, there I think the best way to answer that is the the attorney way, which is it depends, right?
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I think conflict is defined differently by each individual because there's a pain threshold for conflict.
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Some people thrive on conflict.
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Now, our platform is not meant for them.
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Um, some people are they avoid conflict with every last ounce of their energy.
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Um, so where does conflict actually sit?
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So conflict is um, you know, at its core, it's it's some refer to positions, right?
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So so people have two different positions and they're they're working against one another and they're stuck.
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You know, I like to refer to it as a moment of being stuck.
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And we don't like to refer to um it as positions so much as goals.
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I have a goal.
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I want to move forward.
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And what our platform does is it helps it helps um facilitate those challenging conversations with the goal of moving forward.
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You know, we're not replacing the legal system, we're not creating binding documents, this is not legal tech.
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This is an ability to facilitate and iterate and find common ground so that we can move forward quickly and efficiently.
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And that's getting out of conflict because what what we've found in our research is sitting with conflict is both mentally and physically debilitating.
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So, how can we help?
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How can we help move people through that and uh avoid it in the future?
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Well, I Mark, you know, what you made me think of as you just shared that is you know, there's a there's a training I do called Stages of Change.
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And one of the things about stages of change is if you're a five on a one to ten scale, you're described as ambivalent.
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And the joke I always make is no one would ever want to be described like, oh, that Mark, he's so ambivalent.
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It wouldn't be a compliment.
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Ah, shucks.
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However, in the stages of change, it's actually a compliment because it means you're neutral.
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It means you become open-minded, it means you're not attached to a position anymore.
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And the reason I share that analogy is because what you made me think of is one of the solutions or one of the benefits that your tool creates is when you would, if you were to describe a person as conflict avoidant, that's not a compliment.
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Like, oh, they're so conflict avoidant.
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However, the root reasons that a person could be conflict avoidant could be that they don't really know where to start having the discussion.
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It could be they have a general idea where to start, but they don't really know how to articulate what they're trying to say.
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And those two are very, what am I trying to say?
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They're very um honorable reasons to maybe avoid a conversation.
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And I feel like that's one of the big things that like gives gives you the ingredients that your solution.
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Am I on the right track?
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You are, and and the feeling that they don't have enough information, the feeling that they might not uh be up for the task of having that conversation.
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So there's a fear factor, there's this insecurity factor associated with it.
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And what we find with organizations is oftentimes there's a public speaking fear, right?
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So you're in a group dynamic, and there's a there's a real tangible fear of rejection in that room.
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And you talked about, and I and I want to pick up on this one of the comments you made a few minutes ago as well, is the the consequence of internalizing your frustration and resentment, right?
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So one of the things that I'll often say to people is that there's a difference between internal forgiveness and external forgiveness.
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And internal for external forgiveness is when you say, you know what, I'm gonna let that go.
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Right?
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But internally, you haven't let it go.
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No.
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And so you and I talked before the show today about how we're both so aligned on we want people to come to the table regardless.
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We want people to articulate their frustrations, their ideas, resolve their differences, and so on and so forth.
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And so I think that's an element too that, and I hate to tie it into mental health, but but there is a mental health element of this.
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Totally.
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And so if if people feel like they can come to the table, and I want to get into now the name of your tool and funny thing, josie.ai.
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So I I asked Mark before, like I said, I want to make sure I'm pronouncing it right.
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He goes, Well, you know, the song by the outfield in the 80s, you know, Joe Mark, I gotta let you do it.
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Josie's on a vacation phone.
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There we go.
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See, I would have butchered that.
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I had to let you do that.
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Different spelling, definitely different spelling, different meaning.
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True.
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Completely.
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But it's easy to remember.
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So, so so maybe Mark, pick up on the fact that you know, what it specifically be succinct, what is it specifically you saw after 30 years in the system where you're like, I gotta fix this.
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You know, um, so it's such a complex question.
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So um COVID was was an eye-opener for me um in the in the change dynamic and the uh willingness to uh change and and adapt to certain things and um watching organizations uh stumble around on that.
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Um and then the the introduction of AI.
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Um so it was more of a positive than anything.
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Um we have impacted and uh served our community uh both locally and regionally.
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We've served uh thousands of families.
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And when I saw the capacity of AI, I realized we can impact a lot more people.
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And you know, you you named a few stats uh early on, and there's people who are in judicial deserts, they refer to it, they just don't have access.
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The access to justice is a is a real thing.
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And you know, I met my co-founder originally um in my journey of of searching to see what what is the next chapter.
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Uh, because the judicial system is arguably broken, it's not serving all of the people.
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There's a a monetary incentive where you know those that have are much more successful in the system than those that don't.
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That always bothered me.
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Litigation and the um limbic brain always bothered me.
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The the fight-flight um mentality where it was win-lose.
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Uh win-lose in my mind equates to lose-lose.
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Everybody loses.
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Um, you know, the joke was the only people that win in litigation are the attorneys.
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And uh that always bothered me.
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I always avoided litigation.
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We we focused our practice in proactive planning.
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So do everything possible to make sure that the client doesn't end up in court because, again, there's a lose-lose mindset.
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So we did real estate planning, business planning, uh, family estate planning, and so forth, making sure that they were you know bulletproof so that they didn't end up in court because of the disdain I had for litigation and those that, you know, seek conflict and and thrive on conflict.
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So with AI, uh, and I met my co-founder, um, did a podcast episode with him actually to really understand AI.
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And he's got a really amazing background in product development and technical uh development.
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He was a Microsoft uh leader.
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He actually shipped the product, which we now all use is Microsoft 365.
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Uh, it was called SharePoint Online at the time when he shipped it.
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Um, but his technical and his intellectual understanding of what AI was and what it could do was really fascinating.
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So we started iterating on you know, can we help the system, right?
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This broken judicial system.
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Can we help support it if we're able to um help people through conflict?
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And as we built it, we realized we don't need to specifically focus on the judicial system.
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We can focus on um anyone really.
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And that, you know, obviously in our initial uh iterations of things, that's a it's a good problem to have.
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We've built something that we could boil the ocean with, so it becomes a challenge, right?
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So what are we gonna focus on?
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And bringing alignment and consensus is really uh what we decided to focus on.
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And to to answer your question in a really roundabout, long way is I believe that AI can help people through conflict, it can help raise the issue, it can help have the harder conversations, and it can help teach people to evolve through and not have conflict in the future.
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And that's the ultimate reason we built built our tool.
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So, so just a quick follow-up.
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So, you know, without going into too much detail, if if I was to use your product from beginning to end, yeah, give me a sense of time commitment on my end, on the other person's end, just to give a sense to the audience of what's involved.
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Yeah.
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So you're still doing work, right?
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It's a hard conversation for a reason.
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You're not you're not eliminating and replacing the hard conversation.
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You as the human are still the agent.
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You're still in charge of your uh destination.
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Um, but what it does is it solves these issues faster from a calendar time frame, right?
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As we've created um, you know, these conversations with folks who are uh testing and utilizing our product is you know, it takes time to coordinate a meeting.
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It takes time to get everybody in the same room.
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And oftentimes, once they're in that room, they have to set another meeting.
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So when you're looking at the calendar, you know, it could be 30 days.
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Here with our platform, it could be as quickly as 48 hours, but we're on our own pace.
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So it's an asynchronous model.
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So what will happen is the third party neutral, the Sherpa, whoever is in charge of facilitating the convergence of this, uh, will set up the session and it will have an invitation sent to one, you know, if it's 1v1 to both parties, or if it's a consensus building exercise to all of the people in the organization.
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And they'll go through an uh questionnaire.
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And that questionnaire will capture three main topics.
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One, what is the situation we're dealing with?
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What is the dispute?
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What is the uh item that we're stuck on?
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What is the consensus we're looking for, if you will?
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And then the second is, you know, what do you want out of this?
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Like where are your non-starters?
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What are your dreams, hopes, and aspirations?
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And third, which I think is the most important, is that theory of mind that you mentioned earlier, which is what do you think the other person thinks?
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And I think that's really where the system really digs in and finds that consensus because you know it's a it's a psychological, it's a psychiatry uh term, which is this theory of mind.
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Like, what do what do you what are you thinking about me?
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Right?
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Um, what am I what do I think you're thinking about me?
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Um you can imagine that that creates a lot of confusion and a lot of um mistrust and misunderstanding and inaccurate information.
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And you know, if we can break that down, then you know we can really move forward.
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What the tool will then do is it will ask if you want to supply any.
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Okay, wait, stop right there for a minute.
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Yeah.
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Don't lose your thought.
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Okay.
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So I want to make a couple of comments about what you just said before you go further.
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So, first of all, um, for our listeners out there, this may be a fun fact for you.
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The three factors that make up a person's confidence are how you see yourself, how others see you, and the third magical one, how you think others see you, which is the one that ruins people's confidence the most.
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It's the imaginary answer you have for that.
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The other point I wanted to say is when you were describing that, is that often when I'm preparing people to have difficult conversations, one of the things they'll say is, okay, uh they'll say, I I know what I want to say, I I've prepared some talking points, I've prepared an outline, and and they'll go over with me, they'll go, that's good.
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And then have you thought about what they're going to say?
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And they'll be like, I haven't a lot of thought.
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Oh, but I think they're going to say XYZ.
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And then my last question is, and have you thought about what you're going to say to that?
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Yeah.
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And that's where conversations go wrong so often.
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We go in prepared.
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We know what we want to accomplish, what we we want to say.
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And that's why I wanted to stop you there, because that third point you made, and and I want you to say it again, is to me, that's the biggest blind spot I think people have.
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So if you would just before you go on, say that third part again.
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That's where I think the AI as a thought partner can be really helpful, which is you know, I need to understand what you're thinking about me, right?
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I need to understand what you think the situation is, the conflict is.
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And our research shows us that you're almost always wrong to a certain level.
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You know, you're right to the the core, but when it comes right down to it, like you're not spot on.
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And that is where the conflict is created.
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It's that block, it's that stock.
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So how do we unbreak that?
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Well, we use we use our thought partner and we use options, and that's where it then allows you to put in confidential information.
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Um, in that confidential information, your Sherpa, that human in the loop, will will see that and the system will use it in its sentiment analysis.
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The other side won't see it though, right?
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So in certain circumstances it makes sense, and others you skip it.
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Um, and then there's a document upload for understanding the situation, depending if documents are necessary.
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Maybe it's a maybe it's a um you know an engagement letter or it's a hiring letter or it's you know it's a lease, it's it's anything you can imagine.
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And then it converges together to create a common summary of both sides or all sides, right?
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So again, if we're seeking consensus, all five of the leaders go through this process.
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Time was your question.
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How long does that take?
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And you know, the more thoughtful you are, the better the system will work.
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And it will read that too.
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So the system, uh, Josie, is really intuitive.
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So if you're thoughtful, it it is thoughtful back.
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You know, oh, that sounds frustrating.
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Uh, that must be very frustrating.
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How about this?
00:19:20.559 --> 00:19:21.839
And it'll continue to ask the question.
00:19:21.920 --> 00:19:25.279
If you're really short, it'll be concise and mirror that.
00:19:25.680 --> 00:19:29.599
Um, but it there's certain information it needs to get to.
00:19:29.680 --> 00:19:33.839
So if it doesn't get the information, it'll keep digging until it gets the information it needs.
00:19:34.079 --> 00:19:35.359
Converges together.
00:19:35.519 --> 00:19:40.000
So all of the participants have gone through this, it converges.
00:19:40.960 --> 00:19:54.960
I usually tell people to budget 15 or 20 minutes, maybe a half an hour, if you really want to pause and you know get a drink of water and think through these uh questions that it's asking, but about a half an hour.
00:19:55.119 --> 00:19:56.799
Uh, then it goes to the Sherpa.
00:19:56.960 --> 00:20:09.359
And then that the Sherpa sees all of the information that everybody submitted, not specifically answers to questions, but a combined summary and then the summary of each person's understanding and it creates topics.
00:20:09.519 --> 00:20:10.480
So what is the topic?
00:20:10.640 --> 00:20:20.240
You may go in thinking you know what the topic is, however, you may surface other issues when you're going through this, especially when you're doing it with multiple people.
00:20:20.480 --> 00:20:28.079
So you create that negotiation topic, if you will, and you send that along with options.
00:20:28.240 --> 00:20:30.559
So here's the here's the main issue.
00:20:30.640 --> 00:20:31.759
We don't use the word issue.
00:20:31.839 --> 00:20:34.319
We do use topics because again, words do matter.
00:20:34.640 --> 00:20:35.279
Yes, they do.
00:20:35.519 --> 00:20:39.200
So the topic is you know what we're going to negotiate on.
00:20:39.279 --> 00:20:42.960
And then what it shows is four or five options.
00:20:43.200 --> 00:20:47.440
So some are familiar with shuttle diplomacy or shuttle mediation.
00:20:47.599 --> 00:20:57.440
I like to refer to it as convergence facilitation because we're we're shedding off what doesn't matter and we're going and digging in and finding common ground on what really does matter.
00:20:57.680 --> 00:20:59.359
So you vote on those.
00:20:59.519 --> 00:21:03.599
So each party then receives an invitation to vote.
00:21:03.759 --> 00:21:08.240
And again, could this all be happening in real time?
00:21:08.640 --> 00:21:09.279
Sure.
00:21:09.839 --> 00:21:16.000
What we really enjoy about the asynchronous model, though, is that people can do this on their own time.
00:21:16.160 --> 00:21:20.400
One of the struggles, as I mentioned, is getting everybody together in a room.
00:21:20.640 --> 00:21:24.079
You know, there's there's problems that come from everybody in a room, right?
00:21:24.240 --> 00:21:30.640
With that power dynamic and the voice that isn't speaking up and the other reasons that we love our products so much.
00:21:30.960 --> 00:21:39.039
But also getting people to break out of flow state or whatever it is, you get the opportunity to do this on your time, right?
00:21:39.200 --> 00:21:44.559
Maybe you're really good in the morning, maybe you're good at night, maybe you want to go exercise first.
00:21:44.720 --> 00:21:52.559
And you know, you can read the options and think about them, you can sleep on them, you can go for a jog and come back and respond to them.
00:21:52.799 --> 00:21:59.759
So you have these four or five options depending on what the combination of all the information was.
00:22:00.079 --> 00:22:03.279
And you vote on them, and it's it's as basic as a stringer, right?
00:22:03.440 --> 00:22:09.119
So absolutely not middle ground that you were talking about is you know, I would negotiate this.
00:22:09.200 --> 00:22:16.160
I'm really open-minded, I'm I'm not fully clear all the way to this is exactly what I'm looking for.
00:22:16.480 --> 00:22:19.440
And it's really important to then add why.
00:22:19.599 --> 00:22:30.720
So there's a reasoning component to it because the system is again, it's it works much better when people are thoughtful and and thorough about their responses, as you can imagine.
00:22:30.960 --> 00:22:37.759
Um, and what you see, which I think is really cool and it's patent pending, uh, is that sentiment analysis.
00:22:37.920 --> 00:22:46.480
So we are able to see in real time how close we are to the other parties involved in the conversation.
00:22:46.720 --> 00:23:09.440
So you can imagine, especially in a 1v1 situation, um, as you're going through this and the iterations, you know, typically there's three rounds, four rounds, maybe, up to seven rounds of iterations going back and forth, because what will happen is, you know, this is exactly what I want, this is exactly what I don't want.
00:23:09.680 --> 00:23:12.160
I can negotiate on this, and this is interesting.
00:23:12.319 --> 00:23:13.759
I didn't think about this.
00:23:14.079 --> 00:23:22.160
Then the system starts to get really creative and and creates those those more uh uh uh options that that merge everybody together.
00:23:22.559 --> 00:23:23.920
Okay, so let me stop you there again.
00:23:24.079 --> 00:23:28.799
Okay, so so a few things you covered a lot of ground there, so let me just address a couple of things.
00:23:28.960 --> 00:23:33.680
First, I'll start at the end because of what you just said.
00:23:34.559 --> 00:23:39.920
I think there's a part, you know, and you and I have had a few conversations now that just occurred to me.
00:23:40.160 --> 00:24:00.400
And the what it is is that when you get to those, how far apart you are, part of the conversation, if you as a listener to this show today can picture yourself at some point in your life having a conflict with someone where you were negotiating and trying to get something, I don't care whether it's personal, professional, it doesn't matter.
00:24:00.720 --> 00:24:12.559
When you get to that part of the conversation where you feel like you may be making some progress, you feel like you have a better understanding, that is often where the conversation breaks down.
00:24:12.960 --> 00:24:23.279
And so the thing is, is that's where the human element and the AI element, I think, complement each other very well because people can get very defensive.
00:24:23.359 --> 00:24:31.039
If if I'm in a conversation with you and I say, well, it feels like we're getting closer, or it feels like we're close on this issue or that issue.
00:24:31.279 --> 00:24:35.519
Well, if we're face to face, you might be like, Well, that's not true at all.
00:24:35.599 --> 00:24:36.640
And I don't think that.
00:24:36.880 --> 00:24:37.680
But posture.
00:24:38.240 --> 00:24:38.400
Right.
00:24:38.480 --> 00:24:50.160
There's some posturing going on and takes that emotional element out, which I see is a big win for the for the for the and by the way, it's J-O-Z-A, excuse me, J-O-Z-E dot AI.
00:24:50.319 --> 00:24:50.799
That's right.
00:24:51.039 --> 00:25:01.839
And um, and the other point I want to bring up, Mark, that I think is really important as I was listening to you is look, when you're in a negotiation and a conflict, and I'm gonna make two quick points here.
00:25:02.079 --> 00:25:05.039
First of all, I'm a fantasy football guy, okay?
00:25:05.200 --> 00:25:09.519
And I know there's millions and millions of people playing fantasy football these days.
00:25:09.759 --> 00:25:14.480
And I started a new league this year, and one of the guys in the league, I love to trade.
00:25:14.720 --> 00:25:20.160
So, you know, one of the guys in the league, I sent him an email and I said, I'm interested in such and such player.
00:25:20.400 --> 00:25:23.920
And he said his response was, okay, make me an offer.
00:25:24.079 --> 00:25:28.880
And I was like, No, I'm not gonna make you an offer because I don't even know what you want.
00:25:29.119 --> 00:25:32.000
Like, I don't know what you value, I don't know what you want.
00:25:32.079 --> 00:25:41.119
And Mark's solution, Josie's solution, is all about understanding what the other person wants, what they value, what they need.
00:25:41.519 --> 00:25:46.720
And I think so often in negotiation and conflict, we don't take the time.
00:25:46.799 --> 00:26:01.039
And I think what Mark's solution does is it creates, and he's not paying me to promote this, by the way, but what Mark's solution does is it creates, and Mark, I don't know if you've ever thought of using this word with your solution, it creates discipline, right?
00:26:01.440 --> 00:26:10.559
Because, because it's a it's by going through these questions and by going through this process, you can't get emotional, you can't stray off and go on your own path.
00:26:10.799 --> 00:26:18.880
You've got to follow the process that guides you to learning what the other person values and needs and wants.
00:26:19.119 --> 00:26:36.799
And I think, and my final point on this is I think in my experience with difficult conversations and coaching and conflict is we often go into these discussions with assumptions and confirmation bias about what we want.
00:26:36.880 --> 00:26:59.680
And and I will give you a really funny real example that just happened in a in a leadership session I did about a month or two ago where um a guy in the workshop was talking about how his wife is frustrated with him because when he goes out with his friends, he forgets to say what time he's gonna be home.
00:26:59.920 --> 00:27:04.079
And quote unquote, she gives him a really hard time about that.
00:27:04.400 --> 00:27:14.160
And so I said to him, I said, that's my definition of a fake problem that I call a fake problem surface-level fake problem versus a real problem.
00:27:14.240 --> 00:27:17.039
I said, your wife's not upset you're not given the time.
00:27:17.279 --> 00:27:28.400
You you so if you go to solve that conflict and you say to her, okay, from now on, I'll tell you what time I'm coming home, you think that's gonna fix the problem, but that's not gonna fix the problem.
00:27:28.640 --> 00:27:33.920
She is frustrated because you're not extending the respect and courtesy overall.
00:27:34.240 --> 00:27:36.720
And I would bet this manifests in other ways too.
00:27:37.359 --> 00:27:38.160
That's the issue.
00:27:38.319 --> 00:27:46.079
So if you're trying to resolve conflict and you assume that the resolution is just saying the time you're gonna be home, you're not gonna solve it.
00:27:46.240 --> 00:27:48.240
And your solution would prevent against that.
00:27:48.480 --> 00:27:48.799
That's right.
00:27:49.039 --> 00:27:49.839
Does that make sense?
00:27:50.160 --> 00:27:50.559
It does.
00:27:50.720 --> 00:27:53.440
I mean, the assumptions are are deadly, right?
00:27:53.519 --> 00:27:56.960
And it's that confirmation bias you bring up uh so eloquently.
00:27:57.119 --> 00:28:01.200
It's it's it's uh it's a real non-starter, right?
00:28:01.359 --> 00:28:08.960
Um, but um what the tool enables you to do also, if you think about it, right?
00:28:09.039 --> 00:28:16.400
You're not face-to-face, which I think is the is a real uh unlock for a lot of people, right?
00:28:16.559 --> 00:28:28.880
That face-to-face is really challenging and they can't think straight and you know they feel on the spot and they don't feel heard, and you know, they're it it doesn't work for them.
00:28:29.119 --> 00:28:42.160
Um, but in addition to that, the ability to see in real time how close you are, there's a psychological component to that to that helps you find that common ground, right?
00:28:42.319 --> 00:28:47.359
To help you maybe concede off of your position.
00:28:47.519 --> 00:28:53.279
Again, words I don't like using consensus and goals rather than concede and position.
00:28:53.440 --> 00:28:58.000
Um, however, you see in real time, I can do that.
00:28:58.160 --> 00:28:58.640
You know what?
00:28:59.119 --> 00:29:06.079
For the benefit of the organization, for the benefit of our relationship, for the benefit of all, I can move off of this.
00:29:06.240 --> 00:29:07.440
That makes sense.
00:29:07.599 --> 00:29:11.839
Let's push through this, let's find that path forward, and let's keep going.
00:29:12.160 --> 00:29:14.400
Because you mentioned mental health.
00:29:14.559 --> 00:29:16.960
There's mental health within organizations.
00:29:17.119 --> 00:29:19.039
What is a healthy organization look like?
00:29:19.200 --> 00:29:28.880
The ability to work together, find consensus, you know, break through the hard stuff and keep going, you know, and have those challenging conversations.
00:29:29.039 --> 00:29:32.000
The reality of it is that a lot of us aren't having them.
00:29:32.240 --> 00:29:36.960
And it's it makes for a very unhealthy uh organization.
00:29:37.599 --> 00:29:41.359
So two questions slash comments.
00:29:41.519 --> 00:29:44.000
One is, let me do the question first.
00:29:44.079 --> 00:29:46.960
So the consensus, you you've used that word a few times.
00:29:47.200 --> 00:29:56.720
It's an interesting word because in my work, Mark, I often steer people away from the goal of consensus.
00:29:56.960 --> 00:30:01.200
Because with leadership teams, it can often be hard to get consensus.
00:30:01.519 --> 00:30:06.079
So is that the word or is it is it compromise?
00:30:06.400 --> 00:30:07.759
Like where does compromise?
00:30:08.240 --> 00:30:08.799
It's agreement.
00:30:08.880 --> 00:30:09.759
Ultimately, it's agreement.
00:30:09.839 --> 00:30:18.400
And you brought you know this out too, where, you know, um, uh with your with your uh example of the uh fantasy football.
00:30:18.559 --> 00:30:24.960
One of the one of the things I love about our platform is it is it helps to create agreement.
00:30:25.119 --> 00:30:26.160
It helps build agreement.
00:30:26.240 --> 00:30:33.519
And one of the things I really didn't like in the legal uh industry was here's my document.
00:30:34.799 --> 00:30:38.319
You know, this is this is the document that we're gonna use.
00:30:38.400 --> 00:30:40.640
Well, no, I'm gonna mark it up now.
00:30:40.799 --> 00:30:43.359
I'm gonna red line it, and then I'm gonna give it back.
00:30:43.599 --> 00:30:45.680
Here we're someone has the upper hand there.
00:30:46.079 --> 00:30:54.960
Usually, usually the person who is delivering the document, um, but then there's a a power balance, a shift, right?
00:30:55.119 --> 00:31:01.599
Well, I'm gonna mark it all up, and it's it's it's a waste of time, it's a waste of money.
00:31:01.759 --> 00:31:07.519
Um, and what what we've been able to do is build these agreements together, right?
00:31:07.680 --> 00:31:10.799
So, for example, one of the things we do is founder agreements.
00:31:10.880 --> 00:31:18.319
Uh, you you quoted the the um the founder dilemma in the very beginning, uh 65%.
00:31:18.799 --> 00:31:21.119
Well, they go in not knowing, right?
00:31:21.440 --> 00:31:26.480
So to say, here's my agreement, you know, what do you think?
00:31:26.640 --> 00:31:28.559
It it creates that power imbalance.
00:31:28.640 --> 00:31:29.920
Like we're I thought we were partners.
00:31:30.000 --> 00:31:36.000
Like, let's go in, let's have this Sherpa help facilitate common ground.
00:31:36.160 --> 00:31:38.960
Let's build our agreement together, right?
00:31:39.119 --> 00:31:54.799
So rather than me supplying you an agreement for you to review and go get a lawyer and Red Mart line it and bring it back and waste time and money, let's share our visions, share our missions, share what we want out of this and what we don't want.
00:31:55.359 --> 00:31:56.319
So stop right there.
00:31:56.400 --> 00:31:57.279
Yeah, stop right there.
00:31:57.519 --> 00:31:59.359
Because that was enormous.
00:31:59.759 --> 00:32:01.039
Like enormous.
00:32:01.359 --> 00:32:03.839
Mark and I are both big on word choice.
00:32:04.000 --> 00:32:04.160
Yeah.
00:32:04.400 --> 00:32:04.720
Okay.
00:32:05.119 --> 00:32:10.160
So if you think about what he just said, I really want our listeners to digest what he just said.
00:32:10.799 --> 00:32:13.680
There is the power dynamic, there's no getting around it.
00:32:13.920 --> 00:32:14.160
Always.
00:32:14.400 --> 00:32:14.960
Always.
00:32:15.119 --> 00:32:19.920
One person gives the agreement, and that sets a bad tone right out of the gate.
00:32:20.160 --> 00:32:20.799
Always.
00:32:21.039 --> 00:32:23.599
Let's build the agreement together.
00:32:23.920 --> 00:32:31.680
Mark, in our culture of excellence um product that we bring to companies, we have uh we have our pillars of excellence.
00:32:31.759 --> 00:32:33.599
And one of our pillars is collaboration.
00:32:33.839 --> 00:32:34.079
Yes.
00:32:34.240 --> 00:32:34.480
Right?
00:32:34.640 --> 00:32:39.599
So you're basically saying let's build an agreement collaboratively.
00:32:40.319 --> 00:32:46.960
And and if you think about that, it sounds so obvious, but it's rarely, if ever, done.
00:32:47.359 --> 00:32:48.160
Confirmation bias.
00:32:48.400 --> 00:32:49.119
Right, confirmation.
00:32:49.200 --> 00:32:58.559
So I just needed to reinforce what you just said because the collaborative, let's do this together, let's let's learn what each other wants and needs and expects.
00:32:58.720 --> 00:33:02.000
I mean, it's just makes so much sense, Mark.
00:33:02.480 --> 00:33:04.720
And there's an output to it, right?
00:33:04.880 --> 00:33:09.519
You have those, you have that final output with next steps.
00:33:09.680 --> 00:33:11.519
What's what's how what's our path forward?
00:33:12.000 --> 00:33:24.400
Now I want to ask you, because one of the things I love about this solution is if I heard you right, it it gives people a best case, worst case scenario, right?
00:33:24.880 --> 00:33:27.920
As opposed to a single recommendation.
00:33:28.319 --> 00:33:29.599
I think that's unique.
00:33:29.759 --> 00:33:31.359
I don't think that's common.
00:33:31.599 --> 00:33:36.319
And first of all, I think the human brain loves options and choices anyway.
00:33:36.960 --> 00:33:40.079
But can you speak to why that was an important distinction for you?
00:33:40.480 --> 00:33:43.680
You know, it's um so you you pinpointed it, right?
00:33:43.759 --> 00:33:44.799
There are options, right?
00:33:44.880 --> 00:33:47.599
And and one size does not fit all, right?
00:33:47.839 --> 00:33:56.480
So typically what the options will present in round one are again, let's let's take an example of of a 1v1.
00:33:57.279 --> 00:34:00.319
Best case scenario for you is option one.
00:34:00.559 --> 00:34:03.200
Best case scenario for me is option two.
00:34:03.440 --> 00:34:09.519
So in in the inverse, worst case scenario for me is one, you know, and worst case scenario for you is two.
00:34:09.599 --> 00:34:13.360
And then, and again, we're talking about the first round of iteration.
00:34:13.599 --> 00:34:17.199
The third one is typically somewhere in the middle, right?
00:34:17.599 --> 00:34:21.679
And then there's two, let's let's really go outside the box.
00:34:21.840 --> 00:34:22.639
There is no box.
00:34:22.719 --> 00:34:25.280
Let's let's get really creative with these next two.
00:34:25.519 --> 00:34:30.079
So typically the system, as predicted, it'll be like, yeah, I would definitely do this.
00:34:30.239 --> 00:34:33.280
The first one, I definitely don't want to do this, you know, and why?
00:34:33.440 --> 00:34:36.400
Well, it's exactly what my goals don't achieve.
00:34:36.559 --> 00:34:37.679
I don't want to do that.
00:34:37.840 --> 00:34:39.360
Oh, I would negotiate this.
00:34:39.519 --> 00:34:44.880
Then it starts to be like, this is interesting, but you know, if it was this, this, and this, then it would be more interesting.
00:34:45.039 --> 00:34:53.039
And then it converges and the system then, you know, iterates and it starts to just bring out these really creative options.
00:34:53.119 --> 00:34:58.480
And that's where, you know, you're building an agreement together, right?
00:34:58.719 --> 00:35:00.239
Through those options.
00:35:00.400 --> 00:35:07.199
And, you know, by round two, by round three, you're really starting to move toward the middle.
00:35:07.440 --> 00:35:11.519
And, you know, obviously it's not going to work for every situation.
00:35:12.000 --> 00:35:29.920
However, we find that through the options, through the hard work, the discipline of finding that common ground and seeing where the other participant is and where their head is at, because again, the theory of mind, oh, I didn't think they would ever go for that.
00:35:30.079 --> 00:35:31.679
Well, that's exactly what they want.
00:35:31.760 --> 00:35:33.599
You're not communicating.
00:35:33.920 --> 00:35:40.960
Um, you find that you can close out the session with a summary and and um next steps.
00:35:41.440 --> 00:35:51.199
So I know in our past conversations, you talked about some of the benefits of the product being saving time, saving money.
00:35:51.360 --> 00:35:53.599
I mean, those are those are low-hanging fruit, obvious.
00:35:54.000 --> 00:36:03.360
But I think one of the things that we're we're as we discuss through this episode today, where we're talking about there's a peace of mind mental health element.
00:36:03.840 --> 00:36:10.239
There is a productivity element, which connects with time for sure, but there's a productivity element.
00:36:11.360 --> 00:36:18.719
But there's a the collaborative piece also is a relationship-preserving element, right?
00:36:18.960 --> 00:36:19.199
Absolutely.
00:36:19.519 --> 00:36:21.440
So that's the thing about conflict.
00:36:21.760 --> 00:36:33.840
And, you know, I I want to go back to fantasy football again because I I've my two boys play too, and I've said to them, I said, when you make a trade, you don't want the other team to lose.
00:36:34.079 --> 00:36:34.320
No.
00:36:34.559 --> 00:36:38.960
Because if they come out of that trade and it doesn't work out for them, they're not gonna want to trade with you again.
00:36:39.199 --> 00:36:39.760
That's right.
00:36:40.000 --> 00:36:43.679
So that relationship preserving peace.
00:36:43.760 --> 00:36:47.760
And then the fourth thing, Mark, is I think I might quit mindset, go and come sell for you.
00:36:47.920 --> 00:36:48.159
I love it.
00:36:48.400 --> 00:37:01.840
No, seriously, the fourth thing is that that what we talked about in the beginning of the podcast, which is getting people to the table who wouldn't normally come to the table, and that's the psychological safety.
00:37:02.000 --> 00:37:05.599
So, Mark, imagine, think about this for a minute, visualize this, right?
00:37:05.760 --> 00:37:13.360
You're sitting down with a prospective client, and they're saying, Okay, well, well, why do we want to invest in josy.ai?
00:37:13.599 --> 00:37:19.760
And you're like, well, I'll just start out with psychological safety, and people are gonna be like, what the heck are you talking about?
00:37:20.239 --> 00:37:22.480
But here's the reality.
00:37:22.639 --> 00:37:40.880
The reality is, and I deal with this in my world all the time, Mark, is that the difference between healthy and unhealthy conflict in the workplace and when people aren't aligned and when people aren't getting along, and no one's speaking up and speaking their truth, how much does that cost organizations every day?
00:37:41.119 --> 00:37:43.519
I mean, I don't even know that that's quantifiable.
00:37:43.760 --> 00:37:45.760
So there's a lot of pieces.
00:37:45.920 --> 00:37:50.960
Time and money doesn't even come close to do it justice because you bring those other four elements, that's legit.
00:37:51.360 --> 00:37:54.079
It's a it's the silent killer of the organization.
00:37:54.400 --> 00:37:55.519
And no pun intended.
00:37:55.760 --> 00:37:59.599
Yeah, and what you're missing out on, right?
00:37:59.760 --> 00:38:19.679
That person who may be an introvert, who may be fearful of retribution, who may not feel comfortable, may have the gold that if it's surfaced, if it's brought to the table openly and honestly, which it's not, but here's a tool that allows it, that's really good for your organization.
00:38:19.840 --> 00:38:27.920
And on the flip side, if you start to realize this person is not vested in the organization, they're not participating.
00:38:28.000 --> 00:38:30.559
They they have no creative input.
00:38:30.719 --> 00:38:37.039
They're they might not be a good fit for this organization, at least this team, at least the team within the organization.
00:38:37.119 --> 00:38:44.800
And maybe, maybe you surface that they've got one foot out the door and it's it's somebody that you know you want to exit from the from the organization.
00:38:44.960 --> 00:39:00.559
But you know, thinking it from the positive, there's a lot of gold that I know remains inside someone's head that might not be shared because of some form of a power dynamic or some form of uh insecurity that this solves for that.
00:39:01.119 --> 00:39:13.360
Well, and and the the last point you made, uh, boy, you couldn't know how aligned we are in this because um I literally, before you got here today, I did a podcast on standards and deal breakers in an organization.
00:39:13.519 --> 00:39:21.440
And one of the things I mentioned was we talked about um, are you aligned with the organization's cultural norms and core values?
00:39:21.599 --> 00:39:28.639
And when you flush out this process, you're gonna find out really quickly if that wrong person, wrong seat doesn't belong.
00:39:28.800 --> 00:39:40.639
So um, Mark, final thing for today is I I just want to make sure our listeners also understand that this solution is so versatile.
00:39:40.800 --> 00:39:49.599
Yes, that I mean, the the breadth of could it be a strategic coach that doesn't have a lot of experience and conflict resolution and negotiation?
00:39:49.840 --> 00:39:57.199
It could be a CEO who is preparing to have dialogue or discussion with his team or the organization.
00:39:57.440 --> 00:39:59.199
It could be two people within an organization.
00:39:59.280 --> 00:40:00.639
I mean, it's so versatile.
00:40:00.719 --> 00:40:04.480
It could be a divorce lawyer trying to get a husband and wife on the same, right?
00:40:04.639 --> 00:40:05.840
Like it's that versatile.
00:40:06.079 --> 00:40:06.400
Yes.
00:40:06.639 --> 00:40:12.719
And I would uh urge listeners who are sitting back there and saying, I wonder if it would work for this.
00:40:12.960 --> 00:40:13.519
It would.
00:40:13.679 --> 00:40:24.800
And that's the beauty of our platform is it's an arena and we can build use cases into it and customize those and and create them for your specific needs.
00:40:24.960 --> 00:40:30.480
What it what has changed since we started this is the ability to build fast.
00:40:30.639 --> 00:40:34.800
So we're we're customizing for specific use cases and needs for people.
00:40:35.039 --> 00:40:36.480
We've built the harness, if you will.
00:40:36.559 --> 00:40:44.800
We've built that workflow, we've trained it on all sorts of different um intellectual topics, such as mediation, right?
00:40:44.880 --> 00:40:52.159
So theory of mediation, so the questioning and how it you know makes people feel as they're uh going through the questioning process.
00:40:52.320 --> 00:40:55.440
However, you know, one size does not fit all.
00:40:55.599 --> 00:41:04.800
And, you know, we're customizing currently to create one size fits one for the organization that you know sees this as a valuable asset for them.
00:41:05.119 --> 00:41:15.039
Yeah, and Mark's actually Mark's actually building a solution that's gonna solve the problem of dealing with irrational and unreasonable people.
00:41:15.280 --> 00:41:20.000
It's gonna cost an infinite amount of money, but he's building it.
00:41:21.280 --> 00:41:22.239
Yeah, yeah.
00:41:22.400 --> 00:41:27.039
It's definitely uh it has the ability to expose unreasonable.
00:41:27.760 --> 00:41:28.239
Well, that's it.
00:41:28.320 --> 00:41:29.199
That's the word, you know.
00:41:29.440 --> 00:41:29.599
Right.
00:41:29.760 --> 00:41:30.480
That's the word.
00:41:30.719 --> 00:41:39.280
Mark, um, if people want to reach out to you, learn more information about this, at least have an a discussion about it, what would be the best way?
00:41:39.519 --> 00:41:40.559
You know, a couple ways.
00:41:40.719 --> 00:41:43.440
So my email is is a wonderful way to connect.
00:41:43.679 --> 00:41:46.559
Mark at josy, jo-z-e.ai.
00:41:46.960 --> 00:41:51.199
And Josie is Hebrew for uh vision and agreement.
00:41:51.280 --> 00:41:52.800
That's why we named it Josie.
00:41:53.119 --> 00:41:55.039
So J-O-Z-E.ai.
00:41:55.360 --> 00:41:59.840
Go to the website, um, dig in, spin it around, uh, meet me at LinkedIn.
00:42:00.079 --> 00:42:09.519
Love to connect, love sharing ideas, um, and love figuring out how to solve this huge problem and uh make the world a better place.
00:42:09.840 --> 00:42:11.679
Yeah, and a final thought for me today.
00:42:11.840 --> 00:42:16.000
I I I always like to share this piece of this nugget.
00:42:16.320 --> 00:42:26.079
And so many companies are big on holding people accountable and setting clear expectations and having difficult conversations.
00:42:26.239 --> 00:42:28.480
I'm gonna say it, I say it all the time.
00:42:28.719 --> 00:42:32.880
It's one thing to have a difficult conversation, it's another thing for it to be effective.
00:42:32.960 --> 00:42:33.280
Yes.
00:42:33.440 --> 00:42:37.760
So let's make sure we're putting more weight on the effectiveness than just having it.
00:42:37.840 --> 00:42:40.960
Because sometimes if you have it ineffective, it can make it worse.
00:42:41.199 --> 00:42:45.119
So uh anyway, so for Mark Stiles, I am Mark Altman.
00:42:45.199 --> 00:42:49.920
Thank you for joining us for another episode of I Communicate, and we'll see you next time.
00:00:09.199 --> 00:00:12.720
You'd assume co-founder conflict is a personal problem.
00:00:13.039 --> 00:00:15.279
Two people who just didn't get along.
00:00:15.439 --> 00:00:16.399
It's not.
00:00:16.800 --> 00:00:26.000
Research says that at the center of about 65% of high potential startup failures, it's not a personality clash.
00:00:26.879 --> 00:00:33.200
It's a missing vitamin at the exact moment, a little prevention would have cost almost nothing.
00:00:33.679 --> 00:00:37.039
Zoom out, and the same shortage shows up everywhere.
00:00:37.280 --> 00:00:48.159
The World Justice Project estimates more than 5.1 billion people globally can't get meaningful institutional disp support when a dispute escalates.
00:00:48.560 --> 00:00:56.880
When trust in the referee collapses at that scale, everyone downstream is stuck choosing between a courtroom and just living with it.
00:00:57.119 --> 00:00:58.560
Welcome to iCommunicate.
00:00:58.640 --> 00:01:01.840
I'm Mark Altman, founder of Mindset Go in your host.
00:01:02.079 --> 00:01:11.920
My guest today spent three decades practicing law in the Boston area before a simple realization changed his direction and that of many others.
00:01:12.400 --> 00:01:22.239
That question led him to explore AI's potential for helping people at scale rather than continuing to work inside a system he spent a career navigating.
00:01:22.400 --> 00:01:41.040
Today he's the co-founder of Josie.ai and serves as its chief Sherpa great title, guiding people and organizations through resolving conflict and reaching agreement on a platform trained on real pre-litigation disputes, family enterprise conflicts, and founder agreements.
00:01:41.200 --> 00:01:43.519
Mark Stiles, welcome to iCommunicate.
00:01:43.760 --> 00:01:44.480
Wow, welcome.
00:01:44.640 --> 00:01:45.840
I am feeling very welcome.
00:01:45.920 --> 00:01:46.400
Thank you, Mark.
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I've never been with a Sherpa.
00:01:49.359 --> 00:01:50.079
This is a first.
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Yeah.
00:01:50.719 --> 00:01:54.719
It was, you know, we we put a lot of thought into a lot of things.
00:01:54.799 --> 00:01:56.959
And that one we put a lot of thought into.
00:01:57.359 --> 00:02:00.799
I used to refer in my practice as Success Sherpas.
00:02:01.040 --> 00:02:02.640
We were simply success sherpas.
00:02:02.879 --> 00:02:09.680
And, you know, with our with our platform, which I know we'll get into, um, you know, it's not specific for any profession.
00:02:09.840 --> 00:02:12.719
It's not specific for lawyers or mediators.
00:02:12.960 --> 00:02:21.919
You know, we want to have that third-party neutral to be anyone, you know, a trusted uh rabbi or pastor, a trusted uncle or community leader.
00:02:22.159 --> 00:02:28.879
And uh we thought Sherpa would be the perfect term because we're helping you carry that heavy load up that hill.
00:02:29.199 --> 00:02:29.599
Love it.
00:02:29.759 --> 00:02:30.000
Yeah.
00:02:30.159 --> 00:02:40.159
So I want to, I just want to caution our audience today, based on the description I read, when we get into Mark's platform for conflict, it's really incredible.
00:02:40.319 --> 00:02:41.280
And I want to tease it.
00:02:41.439 --> 00:02:50.879
We're gonna, you're gonna have to wait a couple of minutes to hear the rest of this, but I want to tease it by saying that he is solving a few problems with conflict.
00:02:50.960 --> 00:03:01.680
Yeah, but the tease is one of the problems he's solving, and we'll explain this, is he's getting people to come to the table that would typically not want to come to the table.
00:03:02.400 --> 00:03:05.199
And it's really interesting and unique how he does it.
00:03:05.280 --> 00:03:06.639
So we'll get to that in a moment.
00:03:06.800 --> 00:03:13.360
But Mark, I I want to start out by asking you know, before the show today, I looked up what is conflict.
00:03:13.520 --> 00:03:18.319
I I actually went into Claude and I said, hey, what is the textbook definition of conflict?
00:03:18.560 --> 00:03:22.159
And what what it said is there's three, there are three points it raised.
00:03:22.240 --> 00:03:32.879
One is positions, what each side says they want, interests, what each side actually needs underneath the position, and then the perceptions.
00:03:33.039 --> 00:03:41.680
And I know this is a really big part of your solution too, which is what each side believes about the other side's motive, often the source of the real friction.
00:03:42.080 --> 00:03:43.919
So does that sound right to you?
00:03:44.000 --> 00:03:47.039
Like, like not does it sound right, but is that your definition of conflict?
00:03:47.280 --> 00:03:48.319
No, it's Uncle Claude's.
00:03:48.479 --> 00:03:54.159
I like to refer to him as Uncle Claude and uh and attorney Chad for ChatGPT because they're so helpful.
00:03:54.240 --> 00:03:55.360
They're thought partners.
00:03:55.520 --> 00:04:03.919
Um and um, you know, there I think the best way to answer that is the the attorney way, which is it depends, right?
00:04:04.080 --> 00:04:11.680
I think conflict is defined differently by each individual because there's a pain threshold for conflict.
00:04:11.840 --> 00:04:13.439
Some people thrive on conflict.
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Now, our platform is not meant for them.
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Um, some people are they avoid conflict with every last ounce of their energy.
00:04:26.399 --> 00:04:29.199
Um, so where does conflict actually sit?
00:04:29.360 --> 00:04:38.639
So conflict is um, you know, at its core, it's it's some refer to positions, right?
00:04:38.720 --> 00:04:44.639
So so people have two different positions and they're they're working against one another and they're stuck.
00:04:44.800 --> 00:04:48.720
You know, I like to refer to it as a moment of being stuck.
00:04:49.040 --> 00:04:53.839
And we don't like to refer to um it as positions so much as goals.
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I have a goal.
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I want to move forward.
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And what our platform does is it helps it helps um facilitate those challenging conversations with the goal of moving forward.
00:05:06.879 --> 00:05:12.240
You know, we're not replacing the legal system, we're not creating binding documents, this is not legal tech.
00:05:12.560 --> 00:05:20.959
This is an ability to facilitate and iterate and find common ground so that we can move forward quickly and efficiently.
00:05:21.120 --> 00:05:31.519
And that's getting out of conflict because what what we've found in our research is sitting with conflict is both mentally and physically debilitating.
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So, how can we help?
00:05:33.040 --> 00:05:37.839
How can we help move people through that and uh avoid it in the future?
00:05:38.959 --> 00:05:47.839
Well, I Mark, you know, what you made me think of as you just shared that is you know, there's a there's a training I do called Stages of Change.
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And one of the things about stages of change is if you're a five on a one to ten scale, you're described as ambivalent.
00:05:56.720 --> 00:06:02.000
And the joke I always make is no one would ever want to be described like, oh, that Mark, he's so ambivalent.
00:06:02.160 --> 00:06:02.959
It wouldn't be a compliment.
00:06:03.120 --> 00:06:03.839
Ah, shucks.
00:06:04.079 --> 00:06:10.000
However, in the stages of change, it's actually a compliment because it means you're neutral.
00:06:10.079 --> 00:06:14.800
It means you become open-minded, it means you're not attached to a position anymore.
00:06:15.040 --> 00:06:31.040
And the reason I share that analogy is because what you made me think of is one of the solutions or one of the benefits that your tool creates is when you would, if you were to describe a person as conflict avoidant, that's not a compliment.
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Like, oh, they're so conflict avoidant.
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However, the root reasons that a person could be conflict avoidant could be that they don't really know where to start having the discussion.
00:06:43.439 --> 00:06:50.560
It could be they have a general idea where to start, but they don't really know how to articulate what they're trying to say.
00:06:50.879 --> 00:06:54.480
And those two are very, what am I trying to say?
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They're very um honorable reasons to maybe avoid a conversation.
00:06:59.839 --> 00:07:06.160
And I feel like that's one of the big things that like gives gives you the ingredients that your solution.
00:07:06.639 --> 00:07:07.279
Am I on the right track?
00:07:07.759 --> 00:07:16.079
You are, and and the feeling that they don't have enough information, the feeling that they might not uh be up for the task of having that conversation.
00:07:16.160 --> 00:07:19.839
So there's a fear factor, there's this insecurity factor associated with it.
00:07:20.000 --> 00:07:25.360
And what we find with organizations is oftentimes there's a public speaking fear, right?
00:07:25.439 --> 00:07:33.199
So you're in a group dynamic, and there's a there's a real tangible fear of rejection in that room.
00:07:33.600 --> 00:07:45.920
And you talked about, and I and I want to pick up on this one of the comments you made a few minutes ago as well, is the the consequence of internalizing your frustration and resentment, right?
00:07:46.319 --> 00:07:54.560
So one of the things that I'll often say to people is that there's a difference between internal forgiveness and external forgiveness.
00:07:54.879 --> 00:08:00.480
And internal for external forgiveness is when you say, you know what, I'm gonna let that go.
00:08:00.959 --> 00:08:01.279
Right?
00:08:01.519 --> 00:08:04.000
But internally, you haven't let it go.
00:08:04.240 --> 00:08:04.480
No.
00:08:04.720 --> 00:08:12.560
And so you and I talked before the show today about how we're both so aligned on we want people to come to the table regardless.
00:08:12.720 --> 00:08:19.360
We want people to articulate their frustrations, their ideas, resolve their differences, and so on and so forth.
00:08:19.519 --> 00:08:28.079
And so I think that's an element too that, and I hate to tie it into mental health, but but there is a mental health element of this.
00:08:28.319 --> 00:08:28.639
Totally.
00:08:28.800 --> 00:08:38.720
And so if if people feel like they can come to the table, and I want to get into now the name of your tool and funny thing, josie.ai.
00:08:39.360 --> 00:08:43.120
So I I asked Mark before, like I said, I want to make sure I'm pronouncing it right.
00:08:43.200 --> 00:08:49.360
He goes, Well, you know, the song by the outfield in the 80s, you know, Joe Mark, I gotta let you do it.
00:08:49.679 --> 00:08:51.759
Josie's on a vacation phone.
00:08:52.080 --> 00:08:52.399
There we go.
00:08:52.879 --> 00:08:53.759
See, I would have butchered that.
00:08:53.840 --> 00:08:54.399
I had to let you do that.
00:08:54.799 --> 00:08:57.360
Different spelling, definitely different spelling, different meaning.
00:08:57.600 --> 00:08:57.759
True.
00:08:58.000 --> 00:08:58.320
Completely.
00:08:58.559 --> 00:08:59.679
But it's easy to remember.
00:09:00.080 --> 00:09:12.000
So, so so maybe Mark, pick up on the fact that you know, what it specifically be succinct, what is it specifically you saw after 30 years in the system where you're like, I gotta fix this.
00:09:13.279 --> 00:09:18.399
You know, um, so it's such a complex question.
00:09:18.639 --> 00:09:36.159
So um COVID was was an eye-opener for me um in the in the change dynamic and the uh willingness to uh change and and adapt to certain things and um watching organizations uh stumble around on that.
00:09:36.320 --> 00:09:40.320
Um and then the the introduction of AI.
00:09:40.480 --> 00:09:44.720
Um so it was more of a positive than anything.
00:09:44.960 --> 00:09:52.960
Um we have impacted and uh served our community uh both locally and regionally.
00:09:53.120 --> 00:09:57.279
We've served uh thousands of families.
00:09:57.919 --> 00:10:05.200
And when I saw the capacity of AI, I realized we can impact a lot more people.
00:10:05.440 --> 00:10:15.759
And you know, you you named a few stats uh early on, and there's people who are in judicial deserts, they refer to it, they just don't have access.
00:10:15.919 --> 00:10:19.200
The access to justice is a is a real thing.
00:10:19.440 --> 00:10:29.200
And you know, I met my co-founder originally um in my journey of of searching to see what what is the next chapter.
00:10:29.279 --> 00:10:34.799
Uh, because the judicial system is arguably broken, it's not serving all of the people.
00:10:35.039 --> 00:10:43.039
There's a a monetary incentive where you know those that have are much more successful in the system than those that don't.
00:10:43.200 --> 00:10:44.480
That always bothered me.
00:10:44.639 --> 00:10:49.039
Litigation and the um limbic brain always bothered me.
00:10:49.120 --> 00:10:53.840
The the fight-flight um mentality where it was win-lose.
00:10:54.320 --> 00:10:58.240
Uh win-lose in my mind equates to lose-lose.
00:10:58.320 --> 00:10:59.440
Everybody loses.
00:10:59.679 --> 00:11:04.639
Um, you know, the joke was the only people that win in litigation are the attorneys.
00:11:04.879 --> 00:11:06.639
And uh that always bothered me.
00:11:06.720 --> 00:11:08.240
I always avoided litigation.
00:11:08.320 --> 00:11:11.679
We we focused our practice in proactive planning.
00:11:11.840 --> 00:11:19.759
So do everything possible to make sure that the client doesn't end up in court because, again, there's a lose-lose mindset.
00:11:19.919 --> 00:11:38.240
So we did real estate planning, business planning, uh, family estate planning, and so forth, making sure that they were you know bulletproof so that they didn't end up in court because of the disdain I had for litigation and those that, you know, seek conflict and and thrive on conflict.
00:11:38.559 --> 00:11:46.480
So with AI, uh, and I met my co-founder, um, did a podcast episode with him actually to really understand AI.
00:11:46.559 --> 00:11:52.320
And he's got a really amazing background in product development and technical uh development.
00:11:52.480 --> 00:11:54.559
He was a Microsoft uh leader.
00:11:54.799 --> 00:12:00.799
He actually shipped the product, which we now all use is Microsoft 365.
00:12:00.879 --> 00:12:04.639
Uh, it was called SharePoint Online at the time when he shipped it.
00:12:04.720 --> 00:12:13.600
Um, but his technical and his intellectual understanding of what AI was and what it could do was really fascinating.
00:12:13.759 --> 00:12:19.120
So we started iterating on you know, can we help the system, right?
00:12:19.279 --> 00:12:20.720
This broken judicial system.
00:12:20.960 --> 00:12:25.519
Can we help support it if we're able to um help people through conflict?
00:12:25.679 --> 00:12:32.799
And as we built it, we realized we don't need to specifically focus on the judicial system.
00:12:32.960 --> 00:12:36.799
We can focus on um anyone really.
00:12:36.960 --> 00:12:43.759
And that, you know, obviously in our initial uh iterations of things, that's a it's a good problem to have.
00:12:43.919 --> 00:12:48.480
We've built something that we could boil the ocean with, so it becomes a challenge, right?
00:12:48.559 --> 00:12:50.080
So what are we gonna focus on?
00:12:50.240 --> 00:12:56.399
And bringing alignment and consensus is really uh what we decided to focus on.
00:12:56.559 --> 00:13:20.399
And to to answer your question in a really roundabout, long way is I believe that AI can help people through conflict, it can help raise the issue, it can help have the harder conversations, and it can help teach people to evolve through and not have conflict in the future.
00:13:20.559 --> 00:13:23.519
And that's the ultimate reason we built built our tool.
00:13:23.840 --> 00:13:25.840
So, so just a quick follow-up.
00:13:26.000 --> 00:13:44.879
So, you know, without going into too much detail, if if I was to use your product from beginning to end, yeah, give me a sense of time commitment on my end, on the other person's end, just to give a sense to the audience of what's involved.
00:13:45.120 --> 00:13:45.600
Yeah.
00:13:45.919 --> 00:13:48.080
So you're still doing work, right?
00:13:48.240 --> 00:13:49.919
It's a hard conversation for a reason.
00:13:50.000 --> 00:13:53.360
You're not you're not eliminating and replacing the hard conversation.
00:13:53.440 --> 00:13:56.159
You as the human are still the agent.
00:13:56.320 --> 00:13:59.279
You're still in charge of your uh destination.
00:13:59.840 --> 00:14:06.639
Um, but what it does is it solves these issues faster from a calendar time frame, right?
00:14:06.720 --> 00:14:17.759
As we've created um, you know, these conversations with folks who are uh testing and utilizing our product is you know, it takes time to coordinate a meeting.
00:14:17.919 --> 00:14:20.240
It takes time to get everybody in the same room.
00:14:20.320 --> 00:14:24.720
And oftentimes, once they're in that room, they have to set another meeting.
00:14:24.799 --> 00:14:28.480
So when you're looking at the calendar, you know, it could be 30 days.
00:14:28.720 --> 00:14:35.120
Here with our platform, it could be as quickly as 48 hours, but we're on our own pace.
00:14:35.200 --> 00:14:37.200
So it's an asynchronous model.
00:14:37.759 --> 00:14:57.200
So what will happen is the third party neutral, the Sherpa, whoever is in charge of facilitating the convergence of this, uh, will set up the session and it will have an invitation sent to one, you know, if it's 1v1 to both parties, or if it's a consensus building exercise to all of the people in the organization.
00:14:57.759 --> 00:15:01.600
And they'll go through an uh questionnaire.
00:15:01.759 --> 00:15:05.200
And that questionnaire will capture three main topics.
00:15:05.440 --> 00:15:08.399
One, what is the situation we're dealing with?
00:15:08.559 --> 00:15:09.600
What is the dispute?
00:15:09.759 --> 00:15:12.000
What is the uh item that we're stuck on?
00:15:12.159 --> 00:15:14.559
What is the consensus we're looking for, if you will?
00:15:14.720 --> 00:15:19.120
And then the second is, you know, what do you want out of this?
00:15:19.279 --> 00:15:21.360
Like where are your non-starters?
00:15:21.600 --> 00:15:23.759
What are your dreams, hopes, and aspirations?
00:15:23.919 --> 00:15:32.320
And third, which I think is the most important, is that theory of mind that you mentioned earlier, which is what do you think the other person thinks?
00:15:32.480 --> 00:15:44.639
And I think that's really where the system really digs in and finds that consensus because you know it's a it's a psychological, it's a psychiatry uh term, which is this theory of mind.
00:15:44.720 --> 00:15:47.840
Like, what do what do you what are you thinking about me?
00:15:48.080 --> 00:15:48.639
Right?
00:15:48.879 --> 00:15:52.559
Um, what am I what do I think you're thinking about me?
00:15:52.720 --> 00:16:03.279
Um you can imagine that that creates a lot of confusion and a lot of um mistrust and misunderstanding and inaccurate information.
00:16:03.600 --> 00:16:08.559
And you know, if we can break that down, then you know we can really move forward.
00:16:08.799 --> 00:16:12.399
What the tool will then do is it will ask if you want to supply any.
00:16:12.879 --> 00:16:14.080
Okay, wait, stop right there for a minute.
00:16:14.159 --> 00:16:14.320
Yeah.
00:16:14.480 --> 00:16:15.200
Don't lose your thought.
00:16:15.519 --> 00:16:15.759
Okay.
00:16:16.480 --> 00:16:19.759
So I want to make a couple of comments about what you just said before you go further.
00:16:19.840 --> 00:16:23.840
So, first of all, um, for our listeners out there, this may be a fun fact for you.
00:16:24.000 --> 00:16:38.639
The three factors that make up a person's confidence are how you see yourself, how others see you, and the third magical one, how you think others see you, which is the one that ruins people's confidence the most.
00:16:38.720 --> 00:16:41.120
It's the imaginary answer you have for that.
00:16:41.360 --> 00:17:00.080
The other point I wanted to say is when you were describing that, is that often when I'm preparing people to have difficult conversations, one of the things they'll say is, okay, uh they'll say, I I know what I want to say, I I've prepared some talking points, I've prepared an outline, and and they'll go over with me, they'll go, that's good.
00:17:00.159 --> 00:17:03.360
And then have you thought about what they're going to say?
00:17:03.840 --> 00:17:05.839
And they'll be like, I haven't a lot of thought.
00:17:06.240 --> 00:17:08.720
Oh, but I think they're going to say XYZ.
00:17:08.880 --> 00:17:13.119
And then my last question is, and have you thought about what you're going to say to that?
00:17:13.279 --> 00:17:13.599
Yeah.
00:17:13.839 --> 00:17:17.200
And that's where conversations go wrong so often.
00:17:17.359 --> 00:17:18.559
We go in prepared.
00:17:18.640 --> 00:17:21.519
We know what we want to accomplish, what we we want to say.
00:17:21.680 --> 00:17:32.160
And that's why I wanted to stop you there, because that third point you made, and and I want you to say it again, is to me, that's the biggest blind spot I think people have.
00:17:32.240 --> 00:17:34.880
So if you would just before you go on, say that third part again.
00:17:36.000 --> 00:17:44.079
That's where I think the AI as a thought partner can be really helpful, which is you know, I need to understand what you're thinking about me, right?
00:17:44.240 --> 00:17:49.519
I need to understand what you think the situation is, the conflict is.
00:17:49.759 --> 00:17:54.880
And our research shows us that you're almost always wrong to a certain level.
00:17:55.039 --> 00:18:02.319
You know, you're right to the the core, but when it comes right down to it, like you're not spot on.
00:18:02.480 --> 00:18:05.519
And that is where the conflict is created.
00:18:05.680 --> 00:18:07.519
It's that block, it's that stock.
00:18:07.599 --> 00:18:08.960
So how do we unbreak that?
00:18:09.119 --> 00:18:16.880
Well, we use we use our thought partner and we use options, and that's where it then allows you to put in confidential information.
00:18:17.359 --> 00:18:26.400
Um, in that confidential information, your Sherpa, that human in the loop, will will see that and the system will use it in its sentiment analysis.
00:18:26.559 --> 00:18:28.480
The other side won't see it though, right?
00:18:28.559 --> 00:18:32.319
So in certain circumstances it makes sense, and others you skip it.
00:18:32.400 --> 00:18:38.400
Um, and then there's a document upload for understanding the situation, depending if documents are necessary.
00:18:38.640 --> 00:18:48.720
Maybe it's a maybe it's a um you know an engagement letter or it's a hiring letter or it's you know it's a lease, it's it's anything you can imagine.
00:18:48.960 --> 00:18:54.960
And then it converges together to create a common summary of both sides or all sides, right?
00:18:55.119 --> 00:19:00.160
So again, if we're seeking consensus, all five of the leaders go through this process.
00:19:00.480 --> 00:19:01.599
Time was your question.
00:19:01.680 --> 00:19:02.960
How long does that take?
00:19:03.119 --> 00:19:06.960
And you know, the more thoughtful you are, the better the system will work.
00:19:07.119 --> 00:19:08.720
And it will read that too.
00:19:08.960 --> 00:19:12.240
So the system, uh, Josie, is really intuitive.
00:19:12.319 --> 00:19:15.680
So if you're thoughtful, it it is thoughtful back.
00:19:15.759 --> 00:19:17.839
You know, oh, that sounds frustrating.
00:19:18.079 --> 00:19:19.599
Uh, that must be very frustrating.
00:19:19.839 --> 00:19:20.400
How about this?
00:19:20.559 --> 00:19:21.839
And it'll continue to ask the question.
00:19:21.920 --> 00:19:25.279
If you're really short, it'll be concise and mirror that.
00:19:25.680 --> 00:19:29.599
Um, but it there's certain information it needs to get to.
00:19:29.680 --> 00:19:33.839
So if it doesn't get the information, it'll keep digging until it gets the information it needs.
00:19:34.079 --> 00:19:35.359
Converges together.
00:19:35.519 --> 00:19:40.000
So all of the participants have gone through this, it converges.
00:19:40.960 --> 00:19:54.960
I usually tell people to budget 15 or 20 minutes, maybe a half an hour, if you really want to pause and you know get a drink of water and think through these uh questions that it's asking, but about a half an hour.
00:19:55.119 --> 00:19:56.799
Uh, then it goes to the Sherpa.
00:19:56.960 --> 00:20:09.359
And then that the Sherpa sees all of the information that everybody submitted, not specifically answers to questions, but a combined summary and then the summary of each person's understanding and it creates topics.
00:20:09.519 --> 00:20:10.480
So what is the topic?
00:20:10.640 --> 00:20:20.240
You may go in thinking you know what the topic is, however, you may surface other issues when you're going through this, especially when you're doing it with multiple people.
00:20:20.480 --> 00:20:28.079
So you create that negotiation topic, if you will, and you send that along with options.
00:20:28.240 --> 00:20:30.559
So here's the here's the main issue.
00:20:30.640 --> 00:20:31.759
We don't use the word issue.
00:20:31.839 --> 00:20:34.319
We do use topics because again, words do matter.
00:20:34.640 --> 00:20:35.279
Yes, they do.
00:20:35.519 --> 00:20:39.200
So the topic is you know what we're going to negotiate on.
00:20:39.279 --> 00:20:42.960
And then what it shows is four or five options.
00:20:43.200 --> 00:20:47.440
So some are familiar with shuttle diplomacy or shuttle mediation.
00:20:47.599 --> 00:20:57.440
I like to refer to it as convergence facilitation because we're we're shedding off what doesn't matter and we're going and digging in and finding common ground on what really does matter.
00:20:57.680 --> 00:20:59.359
So you vote on those.
00:20:59.519 --> 00:21:03.599
So each party then receives an invitation to vote.
00:21:03.759 --> 00:21:08.240
And again, could this all be happening in real time?
00:21:08.640 --> 00:21:09.279
Sure.
00:21:09.839 --> 00:21:16.000
What we really enjoy about the asynchronous model, though, is that people can do this on their own time.
00:21:16.160 --> 00:21:20.400
One of the struggles, as I mentioned, is getting everybody together in a room.
00:21:20.640 --> 00:21:24.079
You know, there's there's problems that come from everybody in a room, right?
00:21:24.240 --> 00:21:30.640
With that power dynamic and the voice that isn't speaking up and the other reasons that we love our products so much.
00:21:30.960 --> 00:21:39.039
But also getting people to break out of flow state or whatever it is, you get the opportunity to do this on your time, right?
00:21:39.200 --> 00:21:44.559
Maybe you're really good in the morning, maybe you're good at night, maybe you want to go exercise first.
00:21:44.720 --> 00:21:52.559
And you know, you can read the options and think about them, you can sleep on them, you can go for a jog and come back and respond to them.
00:21:52.799 --> 00:21:59.759
So you have these four or five options depending on what the combination of all the information was.
00:22:00.079 --> 00:22:03.279
And you vote on them, and it's it's as basic as a stringer, right?
00:22:03.440 --> 00:22:09.119
So absolutely not middle ground that you were talking about is you know, I would negotiate this.
00:22:09.200 --> 00:22:16.160
I'm really open-minded, I'm I'm not fully clear all the way to this is exactly what I'm looking for.
00:22:16.480 --> 00:22:19.440
And it's really important to then add why.
00:22:19.599 --> 00:22:30.720
So there's a reasoning component to it because the system is again, it's it works much better when people are thoughtful and and thorough about their responses, as you can imagine.
00:22:30.960 --> 00:22:37.759
Um, and what you see, which I think is really cool and it's patent pending, uh, is that sentiment analysis.
00:22:37.920 --> 00:22:46.480
So we are able to see in real time how close we are to the other parties involved in the conversation.
00:22:46.720 --> 00:23:09.440
So you can imagine, especially in a 1v1 situation, um, as you're going through this and the iterations, you know, typically there's three rounds, four rounds, maybe, up to seven rounds of iterations going back and forth, because what will happen is, you know, this is exactly what I want, this is exactly what I don't want.
00:23:09.680 --> 00:23:12.160
I can negotiate on this, and this is interesting.
00:23:12.319 --> 00:23:13.759
I didn't think about this.
00:23:14.079 --> 00:23:22.160
Then the system starts to get really creative and and creates those those more uh uh uh options that that merge everybody together.
00:23:22.559 --> 00:23:23.920
Okay, so let me stop you there again.
00:23:24.079 --> 00:23:28.799
Okay, so so a few things you covered a lot of ground there, so let me just address a couple of things.
00:23:28.960 --> 00:23:33.680
First, I'll start at the end because of what you just said.
00:23:34.559 --> 00:23:39.920
I think there's a part, you know, and you and I have had a few conversations now that just occurred to me.
00:23:40.160 --> 00:24:00.400
And the what it is is that when you get to those, how far apart you are, part of the conversation, if you as a listener to this show today can picture yourself at some point in your life having a conflict with someone where you were negotiating and trying to get something, I don't care whether it's personal, professional, it doesn't matter.
00:24:00.720 --> 00:24:12.559
When you get to that part of the conversation where you feel like you may be making some progress, you feel like you have a better understanding, that is often where the conversation breaks down.
00:24:12.960 --> 00:24:23.279
And so the thing is, is that's where the human element and the AI element, I think, complement each other very well because people can get very defensive.
00:24:23.359 --> 00:24:31.039
If if I'm in a conversation with you and I say, well, it feels like we're getting closer, or it feels like we're close on this issue or that issue.
00:24:31.279 --> 00:24:35.519
Well, if we're face to face, you might be like, Well, that's not true at all.
00:24:35.599 --> 00:24:36.640
And I don't think that.
00:24:36.880 --> 00:24:37.680
But posture.
00:24:38.240 --> 00:24:38.400
Right.
00:24:38.480 --> 00:24:50.160
There's some posturing going on and takes that emotional element out, which I see is a big win for the for the for the and by the way, it's J-O-Z-A, excuse me, J-O-Z-E dot AI.
00:24:50.319 --> 00:24:50.799
That's right.
00:24:51.039 --> 00:25:01.839
And um, and the other point I want to bring up, Mark, that I think is really important as I was listening to you is look, when you're in a negotiation and a conflict, and I'm gonna make two quick points here.
00:25:02.079 --> 00:25:05.039
First of all, I'm a fantasy football guy, okay?
00:25:05.200 --> 00:25:09.519
And I know there's millions and millions of people playing fantasy football these days.
00:25:09.759 --> 00:25:14.480
And I started a new league this year, and one of the guys in the league, I love to trade.
00:25:14.720 --> 00:25:20.160
So, you know, one of the guys in the league, I sent him an email and I said, I'm interested in such and such player.
00:25:20.400 --> 00:25:23.920
And he said his response was, okay, make me an offer.
00:25:24.079 --> 00:25:28.880
And I was like, No, I'm not gonna make you an offer because I don't even know what you want.
00:25:29.119 --> 00:25:32.000
Like, I don't know what you value, I don't know what you want.
00:25:32.079 --> 00:25:41.119
And Mark's solution, Josie's solution, is all about understanding what the other person wants, what they value, what they need.
00:25:41.519 --> 00:25:46.720
And I think so often in negotiation and conflict, we don't take the time.
00:25:46.799 --> 00:26:01.039
And I think what Mark's solution does is it creates, and he's not paying me to promote this, by the way, but what Mark's solution does is it creates, and Mark, I don't know if you've ever thought of using this word with your solution, it creates discipline, right?
00:26:01.440 --> 00:26:10.559
Because, because it's a it's by going through these questions and by going through this process, you can't get emotional, you can't stray off and go on your own path.
00:26:10.799 --> 00:26:18.880
You've got to follow the process that guides you to learning what the other person values and needs and wants.
00:26:19.119 --> 00:26:36.799
And I think, and my final point on this is I think in my experience with difficult conversations and coaching and conflict is we often go into these discussions with assumptions and confirmation bias about what we want.
00:26:36.880 --> 00:26:59.680
And and I will give you a really funny real example that just happened in a in a leadership session I did about a month or two ago where um a guy in the workshop was talking about how his wife is frustrated with him because when he goes out with his friends, he forgets to say what time he's gonna be home.
00:26:59.920 --> 00:27:04.079
And quote unquote, she gives him a really hard time about that.
00:27:04.400 --> 00:27:14.160
And so I said to him, I said, that's my definition of a fake problem that I call a fake problem surface-level fake problem versus a real problem.
00:27:14.240 --> 00:27:17.039
I said, your wife's not upset you're not given the time.
00:27:17.279 --> 00:27:28.400
You you so if you go to solve that conflict and you say to her, okay, from now on, I'll tell you what time I'm coming home, you think that's gonna fix the problem, but that's not gonna fix the problem.
00:27:28.640 --> 00:27:33.920
She is frustrated because you're not extending the respect and courtesy overall.
00:27:34.240 --> 00:27:36.720
And I would bet this manifests in other ways too.
00:27:37.359 --> 00:27:38.160
That's the issue.
00:27:38.319 --> 00:27:46.079
So if you're trying to resolve conflict and you assume that the resolution is just saying the time you're gonna be home, you're not gonna solve it.
00:27:46.240 --> 00:27:48.240
And your solution would prevent against that.
00:27:48.480 --> 00:27:48.799
That's right.
00:27:49.039 --> 00:27:49.839
Does that make sense?
00:27:50.160 --> 00:27:50.559
It does.
00:27:50.720 --> 00:27:53.440
I mean, the assumptions are are deadly, right?
00:27:53.519 --> 00:27:56.960
And it's that confirmation bias you bring up uh so eloquently.
00:27:57.119 --> 00:28:01.200
It's it's it's uh it's a real non-starter, right?
00:28:01.359 --> 00:28:08.960
Um, but um what the tool enables you to do also, if you think about it, right?
00:28:09.039 --> 00:28:16.400
You're not face-to-face, which I think is the is a real uh unlock for a lot of people, right?
00:28:16.559 --> 00:28:28.880
That face-to-face is really challenging and they can't think straight and you know they feel on the spot and they don't feel heard, and you know, they're it it doesn't work for them.
00:28:29.119 --> 00:28:42.160
Um, but in addition to that, the ability to see in real time how close you are, there's a psychological component to that to that helps you find that common ground, right?
00:28:42.319 --> 00:28:47.359
To help you maybe concede off of your position.
00:28:47.519 --> 00:28:53.279
Again, words I don't like using consensus and goals rather than concede and position.
00:28:53.440 --> 00:28:58.000
Um, however, you see in real time, I can do that.
00:28:58.160 --> 00:28:58.640
You know what?
00:28:59.119 --> 00:29:06.079
For the benefit of the organization, for the benefit of our relationship, for the benefit of all, I can move off of this.
00:29:06.240 --> 00:29:07.440
That makes sense.
00:29:07.599 --> 00:29:11.839
Let's push through this, let's find that path forward, and let's keep going.
00:29:12.160 --> 00:29:14.400
Because you mentioned mental health.
00:29:14.559 --> 00:29:16.960
There's mental health within organizations.
00:29:17.119 --> 00:29:19.039
What is a healthy organization look like?
00:29:19.200 --> 00:29:28.880
The ability to work together, find consensus, you know, break through the hard stuff and keep going, you know, and have those challenging conversations.
00:29:29.039 --> 00:29:32.000
The reality of it is that a lot of us aren't having them.
00:29:32.240 --> 00:29:36.960
And it's it makes for a very unhealthy uh organization.
00:29:37.599 --> 00:29:41.359
So two questions slash comments.
00:29:41.519 --> 00:29:44.000
One is, let me do the question first.
00:29:44.079 --> 00:29:46.960
So the consensus, you you've used that word a few times.
00:29:47.200 --> 00:29:56.720
It's an interesting word because in my work, Mark, I often steer people away from the goal of consensus.
00:29:56.960 --> 00:30:01.200
Because with leadership teams, it can often be hard to get consensus.
00:30:01.519 --> 00:30:06.079
So is that the word or is it is it compromise?
00:30:06.400 --> 00:30:07.759
Like where does compromise?
00:30:08.240 --> 00:30:08.799
It's agreement.
00:30:08.880 --> 00:30:09.759
Ultimately, it's agreement.
00:30:09.839 --> 00:30:18.400
And you brought you know this out too, where, you know, um, uh with your with your uh example of the uh fantasy football.
00:30:18.559 --> 00:30:24.960
One of the one of the things I love about our platform is it is it helps to create agreement.
00:30:25.119 --> 00:30:26.160
It helps build agreement.
00:30:26.240 --> 00:30:33.519
And one of the things I really didn't like in the legal uh industry was here's my document.
00:30:34.799 --> 00:30:38.319
You know, this is this is the document that we're gonna use.
00:30:38.400 --> 00:30:40.640
Well, no, I'm gonna mark it up now.
00:30:40.799 --> 00:30:43.359
I'm gonna red line it, and then I'm gonna give it back.
00:30:43.599 --> 00:30:45.680
Here we're someone has the upper hand there.
00:30:46.079 --> 00:30:54.960
Usually, usually the person who is delivering the document, um, but then there's a a power balance, a shift, right?
00:30:55.119 --> 00:31:01.599
Well, I'm gonna mark it all up, and it's it's it's a waste of time, it's a waste of money.
00:31:01.759 --> 00:31:07.519
Um, and what what we've been able to do is build these agreements together, right?
00:31:07.680 --> 00:31:10.799
So, for example, one of the things we do is founder agreements.
00:31:10.880 --> 00:31:18.319
Uh, you you quoted the the um the founder dilemma in the very beginning, uh 65%.
00:31:18.799 --> 00:31:21.119
Well, they go in not knowing, right?
00:31:21.440 --> 00:31:26.480
So to say, here's my agreement, you know, what do you think?
00:31:26.640 --> 00:31:28.559
It it creates that power imbalance.
00:31:28.640 --> 00:31:29.920
Like we're I thought we were partners.
00:31:30.000 --> 00:31:36.000
Like, let's go in, let's have this Sherpa help facilitate common ground.
00:31:36.160 --> 00:31:38.960
Let's build our agreement together, right?
00:31:39.119 --> 00:31:54.799
So rather than me supplying you an agreement for you to review and go get a lawyer and Red Mart line it and bring it back and waste time and money, let's share our visions, share our missions, share what we want out of this and what we don't want.
00:31:55.359 --> 00:31:56.319
So stop right there.
00:31:56.400 --> 00:31:57.279
Yeah, stop right there.
00:31:57.519 --> 00:31:59.359
Because that was enormous.
00:31:59.759 --> 00:32:01.039
Like enormous.
00:32:01.359 --> 00:32:03.839
Mark and I are both big on word choice.
00:32:04.000 --> 00:32:04.160
Yeah.
00:32:04.400 --> 00:32:04.720
Okay.
00:32:05.119 --> 00:32:10.160
So if you think about what he just said, I really want our listeners to digest what he just said.
00:32:10.799 --> 00:32:13.680
There is the power dynamic, there's no getting around it.
00:32:13.920 --> 00:32:14.160
Always.
00:32:14.400 --> 00:32:14.960
Always.
00:32:15.119 --> 00:32:19.920
One person gives the agreement, and that sets a bad tone right out of the gate.
00:32:20.160 --> 00:32:20.799
Always.
00:32:21.039 --> 00:32:23.599
Let's build the agreement together.
00:32:23.920 --> 00:32:31.680
Mark, in our culture of excellence um product that we bring to companies, we have uh we have our pillars of excellence.
00:32:31.759 --> 00:32:33.599
And one of our pillars is collaboration.
00:32:33.839 --> 00:32:34.079
Yes.
00:32:34.240 --> 00:32:34.480
Right?
00:32:34.640 --> 00:32:39.599
So you're basically saying let's build an agreement collaboratively.
00:32:40.319 --> 00:32:46.960
And and if you think about that, it sounds so obvious, but it's rarely, if ever, done.
00:32:47.359 --> 00:32:48.160
Confirmation bias.
00:32:48.400 --> 00:32:49.119
Right, confirmation.
00:32:49.200 --> 00:32:58.559
So I just needed to reinforce what you just said because the collaborative, let's do this together, let's let's learn what each other wants and needs and expects.
00:32:58.720 --> 00:33:02.000
I mean, it's just makes so much sense, Mark.
00:33:02.480 --> 00:33:04.720
And there's an output to it, right?
00:33:04.880 --> 00:33:09.519
You have those, you have that final output with next steps.
00:33:09.680 --> 00:33:11.519
What's what's how what's our path forward?
00:33:12.000 --> 00:33:24.400
Now I want to ask you, because one of the things I love about this solution is if I heard you right, it it gives people a best case, worst case scenario, right?
00:33:24.880 --> 00:33:27.920
As opposed to a single recommendation.
00:33:28.319 --> 00:33:29.599
I think that's unique.
00:33:29.759 --> 00:33:31.359
I don't think that's common.
00:33:31.599 --> 00:33:36.319
And first of all, I think the human brain loves options and choices anyway.
00:33:36.960 --> 00:33:40.079
But can you speak to why that was an important distinction for you?
00:33:40.480 --> 00:33:43.680
You know, it's um so you you pinpointed it, right?
00:33:43.759 --> 00:33:44.799
There are options, right?
00:33:44.880 --> 00:33:47.599
And and one size does not fit all, right?
00:33:47.839 --> 00:33:56.480
So typically what the options will present in round one are again, let's let's take an example of of a 1v1.
00:33:57.279 --> 00:34:00.319
Best case scenario for you is option one.
00:34:00.559 --> 00:34:03.200
Best case scenario for me is option two.
00:34:03.440 --> 00:34:09.519
So in in the inverse, worst case scenario for me is one, you know, and worst case scenario for you is two.
00:34:09.599 --> 00:34:13.360
And then, and again, we're talking about the first round of iteration.
00:34:13.599 --> 00:34:17.199
The third one is typically somewhere in the middle, right?
00:34:17.599 --> 00:34:21.679
And then there's two, let's let's really go outside the box.
00:34:21.840 --> 00:34:22.639
There is no box.
00:34:22.719 --> 00:34:25.280
Let's let's get really creative with these next two.
00:34:25.519 --> 00:34:30.079
So typically the system, as predicted, it'll be like, yeah, I would definitely do this.
00:34:30.239 --> 00:34:33.280
The first one, I definitely don't want to do this, you know, and why?
00:34:33.440 --> 00:34:36.400
Well, it's exactly what my goals don't achieve.
00:34:36.559 --> 00:34:37.679
I don't want to do that.
00:34:37.840 --> 00:34:39.360
Oh, I would negotiate this.
00:34:39.519 --> 00:34:44.880
Then it starts to be like, this is interesting, but you know, if it was this, this, and this, then it would be more interesting.
00:34:45.039 --> 00:34:53.039
And then it converges and the system then, you know, iterates and it starts to just bring out these really creative options.
00:34:53.119 --> 00:34:58.480
And that's where, you know, you're building an agreement together, right?
00:34:58.719 --> 00:35:00.239
Through those options.
00:35:00.400 --> 00:35:07.199
And, you know, by round two, by round three, you're really starting to move toward the middle.
00:35:07.440 --> 00:35:11.519
And, you know, obviously it's not going to work for every situation.
00:35:12.000 --> 00:35:29.920
However, we find that through the options, through the hard work, the discipline of finding that common ground and seeing where the other participant is and where their head is at, because again, the theory of mind, oh, I didn't think they would ever go for that.
00:35:30.079 --> 00:35:31.679
Well, that's exactly what they want.
00:35:31.760 --> 00:35:33.599
You're not communicating.
00:35:33.920 --> 00:35:40.960
Um, you find that you can close out the session with a summary and and um next steps.
00:35:41.440 --> 00:35:51.199
So I know in our past conversations, you talked about some of the benefits of the product being saving time, saving money.
00:35:51.360 --> 00:35:53.599
I mean, those are those are low-hanging fruit, obvious.
00:35:54.000 --> 00:36:03.360
But I think one of the things that we're we're as we discuss through this episode today, where we're talking about there's a peace of mind mental health element.
00:36:03.840 --> 00:36:10.239
There is a productivity element, which connects with time for sure, but there's a productivity element.
00:36:11.360 --> 00:36:18.719
But there's a the collaborative piece also is a relationship-preserving element, right?
00:36:18.960 --> 00:36:19.199
Absolutely.
00:36:19.519 --> 00:36:21.440
So that's the thing about conflict.
00:36:21.760 --> 00:36:33.840
And, you know, I I want to go back to fantasy football again because I I've my two boys play too, and I've said to them, I said, when you make a trade, you don't want the other team to lose.
00:36:34.079 --> 00:36:34.320
No.
00:36:34.559 --> 00:36:38.960
Because if they come out of that trade and it doesn't work out for them, they're not gonna want to trade with you again.
00:36:39.199 --> 00:36:39.760
That's right.
00:36:40.000 --> 00:36:43.679
So that relationship preserving peace.
00:36:43.760 --> 00:36:47.760
And then the fourth thing, Mark, is I think I might quit mindset, go and come sell for you.
00:36:47.920 --> 00:36:48.159
I love it.
00:36:48.400 --> 00:37:01.840
No, seriously, the fourth thing is that that what we talked about in the beginning of the podcast, which is getting people to the table who wouldn't normally come to the table, and that's the psychological safety.
00:37:02.000 --> 00:37:05.599
So, Mark, imagine, think about this for a minute, visualize this, right?
00:37:05.760 --> 00:37:13.360
You're sitting down with a prospective client, and they're saying, Okay, well, well, why do we want to invest in josy.ai?
00:37:13.599 --> 00:37:19.760
And you're like, well, I'll just start out with psychological safety, and people are gonna be like, what the heck are you talking about?
00:37:20.239 --> 00:37:22.480
But here's the reality.
00:37:22.639 --> 00:37:40.880
The reality is, and I deal with this in my world all the time, Mark, is that the difference between healthy and unhealthy conflict in the workplace and when people aren't aligned and when people aren't getting along, and no one's speaking up and speaking their truth, how much does that cost organizations every day?
00:37:41.119 --> 00:37:43.519
I mean, I don't even know that that's quantifiable.
00:37:43.760 --> 00:37:45.760
So there's a lot of pieces.
00:37:45.920 --> 00:37:50.960
Time and money doesn't even come close to do it justice because you bring those other four elements, that's legit.
00:37:51.360 --> 00:37:54.079
It's a it's the silent killer of the organization.
00:37:54.400 --> 00:37:55.519
And no pun intended.
00:37:55.760 --> 00:37:59.599
Yeah, and what you're missing out on, right?
00:37:59.760 --> 00:38:19.679
That person who may be an introvert, who may be fearful of retribution, who may not feel comfortable, may have the gold that if it's surfaced, if it's brought to the table openly and honestly, which it's not, but here's a tool that allows it, that's really good for your organization.
00:38:19.840 --> 00:38:27.920
And on the flip side, if you start to realize this person is not vested in the organization, they're not participating.
00:38:28.000 --> 00:38:30.559
They they have no creative input.
00:38:30.719 --> 00:38:37.039
They're they might not be a good fit for this organization, at least this team, at least the team within the organization.
00:38:37.119 --> 00:38:44.800
And maybe, maybe you surface that they've got one foot out the door and it's it's somebody that you know you want to exit from the from the organization.
00:38:44.960 --> 00:39:00.559
But you know, thinking it from the positive, there's a lot of gold that I know remains inside someone's head that might not be shared because of some form of a power dynamic or some form of uh insecurity that this solves for that.
00:39:01.119 --> 00:39:13.360
Well, and and the the last point you made, uh, boy, you couldn't know how aligned we are in this because um I literally, before you got here today, I did a podcast on standards and deal breakers in an organization.
00:39:13.519 --> 00:39:21.440
And one of the things I mentioned was we talked about um, are you aligned with the organization's cultural norms and core values?
00:39:21.599 --> 00:39:28.639
And when you flush out this process, you're gonna find out really quickly if that wrong person, wrong seat doesn't belong.
00:39:28.800 --> 00:39:40.639
So um, Mark, final thing for today is I I just want to make sure our listeners also understand that this solution is so versatile.
00:39:40.800 --> 00:39:49.599
Yes, that I mean, the the breadth of could it be a strategic coach that doesn't have a lot of experience and conflict resolution and negotiation?
00:39:49.840 --> 00:39:57.199
It could be a CEO who is preparing to have dialogue or discussion with his team or the organization.
00:39:57.440 --> 00:39:59.199
It could be two people within an organization.
00:39:59.280 --> 00:40:00.639
I mean, it's so versatile.
00:40:00.719 --> 00:40:04.480
It could be a divorce lawyer trying to get a husband and wife on the same, right?
00:40:04.639 --> 00:40:05.840
Like it's that versatile.
00:40:06.079 --> 00:40:06.400
Yes.
00:40:06.639 --> 00:40:12.719
And I would uh urge listeners who are sitting back there and saying, I wonder if it would work for this.
00:40:12.960 --> 00:40:13.519
It would.
00:40:13.679 --> 00:40:24.800
And that's the beauty of our platform is it's an arena and we can build use cases into it and customize those and and create them for your specific needs.
00:40:24.960 --> 00:40:30.480
What it what has changed since we started this is the ability to build fast.
00:40:30.639 --> 00:40:34.800
So we're we're customizing for specific use cases and needs for people.
00:40:35.039 --> 00:40:36.480
We've built the harness, if you will.
00:40:36.559 --> 00:40:44.800
We've built that workflow, we've trained it on all sorts of different um intellectual topics, such as mediation, right?
00:40:44.880 --> 00:40:52.159
So theory of mediation, so the questioning and how it you know makes people feel as they're uh going through the questioning process.
00:40:52.320 --> 00:40:55.440
However, you know, one size does not fit all.
00:40:55.599 --> 00:41:04.800
And, you know, we're customizing currently to create one size fits one for the organization that you know sees this as a valuable asset for them.
00:41:05.119 --> 00:41:15.039
Yeah, and Mark's actually Mark's actually building a solution that's gonna solve the problem of dealing with irrational and unreasonable people.
00:41:15.280 --> 00:41:20.000
It's gonna cost an infinite amount of money, but he's building it.
00:41:21.280 --> 00:41:22.239
Yeah, yeah.
00:41:22.400 --> 00:41:27.039
It's definitely uh it has the ability to expose unreasonable.
00:41:27.760 --> 00:41:28.239
Well, that's it.
00:41:28.320 --> 00:41:29.199
That's the word, you know.
00:41:29.440 --> 00:41:29.599
Right.
00:41:29.760 --> 00:41:30.480
That's the word.
00:41:30.719 --> 00:41:39.280
Mark, um, if people want to reach out to you, learn more information about this, at least have an a discussion about it, what would be the best way?
00:41:39.519 --> 00:41:40.559
You know, a couple ways.
00:41:40.719 --> 00:41:43.440
So my email is is a wonderful way to connect.
00:41:43.679 --> 00:41:46.559
Mark at josy, jo-z-e.ai.
00:41:46.960 --> 00:41:51.199
And Josie is Hebrew for uh vision and agreement.
00:41:51.280 --> 00:41:52.800
That's why we named it Josie.
00:41:53.119 --> 00:41:55.039
So J-O-Z-E.ai.
00:41:55.360 --> 00:41:59.840
Go to the website, um, dig in, spin it around, uh, meet me at LinkedIn.
00:42:00.079 --> 00:42:09.519
Love to connect, love sharing ideas, um, and love figuring out how to solve this huge problem and uh make the world a better place.
00:42:09.840 --> 00:42:11.679
Yeah, and a final thought for me today.
00:42:11.840 --> 00:42:16.000
I I I always like to share this piece of this nugget.
00:42:16.320 --> 00:42:26.079
And so many companies are big on holding people accountable and setting clear expectations and having difficult conversations.
00:42:26.239 --> 00:42:28.480
I'm gonna say it, I say it all the time.
00:42:28.719 --> 00:42:32.880
It's one thing to have a difficult conversation, it's another thing for it to be effective.
00:42:32.960 --> 00:42:33.280
Yes.
00:42:33.440 --> 00:42:37.760
So let's make sure we're putting more weight on the effectiveness than just having it.
00:42:37.840 --> 00:42:40.960
Because sometimes if you have it ineffective, it can make it worse.
00:42:41.199 --> 00:42:45.119
So uh anyway, so for Mark Stiles, I am Mark Altman.
00:42:45.199 --> 00:42:49.920
Thank you for joining us for another episode of I Communicate, and we'll see you next time.
