NEW: Exploring the Serial Killer Database

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You're listening to the Mind Over Murder
podcast. My name is Bill Thomas.
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I'm a writer, consulting, producer, and now podcaster. I am now
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trying to use my experience as the
brother of a murder victim to help other
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victims of violent crime. I'm working
on a book on the unsolved Colonial Parkway
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murders and I'm the co administrator of
the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook group together with
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Kristin Dilly. My name is Kristin
Dilly. I'm a writer, a researcher,
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a teacher, and a victim's advocate, as well as the social media
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manager and co administrator for the Colonial
Parkway Murders Facebook page with my partner in
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crime, Bill Thomas. Welcome to
Mind Ever Murderer. I'm Kristin Dilly and
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I'm Bill Thomas, and we're joined
today by doctor Mike Amott of the Bradford
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University, Florida Gulf Coast University Serial
Killer Research Database here to talk to us
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all about serial killers. Mike,
thank you so much for joining us.
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So happy to be here, christ
and you make it sound so upbeat.
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I do. That's just a function
of me being excited to be here and
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really geeking out over this amazing data
analysis that I have at my fingertips as
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a result of this serial killer study. So, yeah, I'm a little
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amped about serial killers. Maybe I
need to tone it down just a bit.
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I'll try to dial it back.
Let's let you jump right into it,
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since you're so incredibly enthusiastic, Mike, go ahead and start by talking
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to us about how this database originated. I know you said that it started
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as a classroom project. Tell us
more as an educator. I love that.
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I'm fascinated, So tell us all
about the database and how it got
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started. Sure, so, there
was no intention of creating the database when
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it when it first started, but
I was teaching a course in forensic psychology
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at Radford University, and the students
were really interested, even back then,
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this is the early nineties, even
in serial murder. But what I found
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was that there really weren't very many
good sources of information. There were a
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lot of true crime books, but
there really weren't any good academic sources.
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There was a profile that the FBI
had put out about serial killers. You
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had a lot of people speculating,
but there really wasn't good data. So
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what I did was. I had
my students do a serial killer timeline.
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So put them into groups of about
three or four students, gave them a
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true crime book on a serial killer, and told them basically to create a
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timeline from when that serial killer was
born all the way through until they died
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or were convicted, and then to
compare with their timeline and what their research
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is showing how it compares to what
we talked about in terms of aggression in
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the classroom. And so we started
off with a few of those. I
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took them and throw in the firing
cabinet, and then I started looking through
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my filing cabinet realized I've got a
lot of timelines. So I just stuck
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them into an Excel sheet and it
might not even been Excel back then.
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I can't remember what the order was, but I think maybe Excel wasn't even
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ready. Then just started putting them
in there. And then students wanted to
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know if they could do independent studies, to start doing more research, and
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it just kept building and building,
and then it got out to our local
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news media that we had this database, and they were so interested in it.
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We thought, let's make it a
little more formal and it's just kept
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growing. So did it change format
over time as that data was entered by
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you and the students? How did
it all come together? It changed and
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that we removed some fields and we
added quite a few fields. And then
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when the FBI changed the definition from
three murders to two, we had to
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go back and collect the people that
we had thrown out because they had only
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the two murders. But we keep
adding the fields, and we add a
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field, we have to go back
and start filling in the thousands that we
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hadn't looked for that piece of information
for. I'll ask the question that I
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think a lot of lay people who
are not interested in true criming serial killers
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might ask, what is the end
goal of having a serial killer database?
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That goal has changed a little bit. So when I first started, it
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was really more to just give me
good statistics to use while I teach my
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class. And then it became let's
go ahead and try to see if we
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can get great statistics for everybody to
use on serial murder. And then the
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goal became, in addition to that, let's see if we can find some
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ways to maybe help law enforcement be
able to find or profile serial killers.
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And then we got rid of that
goal because it didn't look like that was
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going to be very successful for a
number of reasons. I think the goal
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right now is just compiling the most
accurate data that's available, So we don't
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really have some of these misunderstandings about
about serial killers. So how many subjects
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are currently in the database, Mike, what's the universe of people were looking
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at? So overall we have just
short of fifty eight hundred serial killers in
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there. Most of them thirty seven
hundred are from the US and about twenty
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one hundred are international. That's a
scary number, it is. And we've
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created a kind of a second database
where we're looking at instead of just a
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serial killers were looking at their victim
and so that's limited for the most part
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to the US and Canadian victims.
But I'll tell you that was a huge
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change in our database because what we
realized is breaking really basically saying we need
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to see each victim name for each
serial killer really made the database more accurate
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because we had people listed as,
for example, having killed six. You
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go through and try to find out
who those six are, and you realize
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there were only two. But somewhere
along the way somebody in law enforcement said,
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it wouldn't surprise me if they've killed
six, and you realize that's not
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proof. It's not the same thing
at all. Though. One thing before
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we move past these numbers. Is
it significant to you that there are thirty
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seven hundred serial killers in the database
for the United States and twenty one hundred
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internationally. Is that a matter of
data access or does the US have more
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serial killers on a per capita basis
than every other country on the planet.
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My take on this, and not
everybody agrees with this take, but my
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take on it, it's a matter
of access, because if you look at
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murder rates by country, the US
falls about in the middle, and so
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it doesn't make any sense that we
would be about in the middle in terms
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of murder rates but number one by
so much in terms of serial killers.
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It doesn't make a lot of sense. But then, if you think about
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how people get into the database,
they had somebody had to have killed two
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or more people on two or more
occasions. That had to be discovered,
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It had to be reported someplace,
had to be reported someplace in English,
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because that's pretty much the only language
I speak, and I barely speak that,
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and so I think the thing is
it's just so much easier to get
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information about US serial killers than it
is others. To give you a good
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example of that, years ago,
there was a master student out in California,
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and I can't remember the name of
the university, but she was from
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Japan. So she spoke fluent Japanese
and she did her thesis on Japanese serial
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killers, and her thesis found so
many serial killers that nobody had ever reported
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before. But the difference was she
spoke the language. She could look at
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the Japanese newspapers and media sources and
find things nobody else could. So,
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even though it's a boring answer,
it's a matter of it's more a matter
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of access than it is something about
the US. I think that's really the
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explanation for it. And that's why
I think when you interpret serial killer data
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in general, you just really have
to be careful about how you interpret things
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because so much of it is access. What is your methodology for this in
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terms of data collection, what are
the metrics that you're looking at, How
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do you get all your data,
and who is doing the data entry?
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Hopefully this doesn't all fall to you. It does for the most part,
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these days. But over the years, it was mostly my students creating the
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the data I started to put in
the database. But again, as students
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wanted to do independent studies, they
would start to enter the the data.
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I retired from I'm teaching about fifteen
years ago. I'm a full time consultant
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with a consulting FIRMAUNT at DC,
and so I don't have the access to
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the students that I used to.
When we first started the database, the
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Internet really didn't exist, and so
pretty much it was a matter of looking
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at true crime books, and there's
such a difference in terms of accuracy of
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those books. There are some really
good true crime writers and there are some
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horrible ones. One of my students
got confused because the book she had they
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listed three different birth dates for the
killer in the same book. And that's
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not really a good that. It
doesn't give you much confidence in the inaccuracy
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of the book. But then the
students would go into the library and look
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at microfiche and microfilm, of looking
at major newspapers like the New York Times.
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But then as the Internet came about, it started changing everything. And
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if you think about today, we
go through and we still look at true
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crime books. We look at different
media sources, but for example, ancestry
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dot com has been a phenomenal source
in terms of getting birth dates and death
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dates, and race information and family
information whether they served in the military.
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Newspapers dot com is again one of
those. We get these from these small
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towns. We get access to all
these different newspapers. So the methods has
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changed in a little bit. But
what we try to do is make sure
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we have at least a couple of
sources that are going to say the same
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thing. For example, if we
have the date of a particular murder,
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we want to find out a couple
of sources more for the birth dates,
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same type of situation. Everything we
have in the database is from public information,
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so we don't have any secret access, let's say, to the FBI
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files. We don't have psychiatrist reports
that weren't part of the court proceeding,
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and we have done that on purpose
because we want to share our database with
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other researchers, and if we had
access to data that was private, it
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would limit our ability to share that. So everything we have now is something
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that anybody could get if you want
to spend thousands and thousands of hours getting
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it. It sounds like you miss
your students in that regard. Oh I
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do. I miss teaching quite a
bit, But I just had they were
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offering a early retirement option, the
state was and this consulting firm had wanted
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me to come on board full time. It was a tough decision, but
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I'm glad I made it. But
I really missed teaching, being with my
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students. How often do you add
new information to the database. Is this
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a weekly thing, a daily thing, monthly? It's at least a weekly
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thing, So at least once a
week I'll go in and search to see
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if there are new serial killers that
have been identified, or if, for
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example, from an old case,
there's new information that came out, for
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example that with the DNA technology now
to beginning to identify victims that we had
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to be listed as unknown in the
past. And so those are the kinds
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of things we update. But it's
really it's a weekly process. When I
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had called you, I think it
was last week, to ask if you
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wanted to appear in my mind ever
murder, and I had mentioned the Wade
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Wilmer Senior. You had said,
oh, yeah, we already have him
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in the database. So Oh my
gosh, that's fast work. That's great
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because it's really only been since January
eighth that they made that announcement that he
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is good for the murders of Robin
Edwards, David Noveline, and Teresa Howell,
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which does make him a serial killer
absolutely. How does Wilmer move on
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to your database so quickly? In
this example, again just going through media
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sources, it popped up in the
headlines, and so I had his name
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go through and verify that, in
fact, the three people he was suspected
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of killing there's a reasonable suspicion for
that. You get a lot of ones
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of people that you can't really put
in because they suspect but there's not really
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enough evidence to suggest that they did
it. But right away the name goes
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in. I spend some time trying
to find whatever information I can find at
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him, and then mark him down
as a follow up because there'll be other
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information that comes out. But he's
one of those, for example, that
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could go to ancestry dot com get
the birth date information, get the death
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information. You get all that stuff
that wouldn't be in a newspaper article for
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example, or a media source,
but is available as soon as we knew
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about him, which is a few
months ago before the announcement, we had
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done all that basic research with using
ancestry in newspapers, dot com and other
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sources, so we had a pretty
decent address history, day of birth,
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marriage, divorce, when his kids
were born. But that's sort of thing,
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so we had a sense of that. We're just pleasantly surprised that as
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a newly minted serial killer, which
by the way, is an expression we're
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comfortable using because according to as you
said, according to the FBI's criteria,
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Alan Wade Wilmer Senior meets their criteria. Interestingly, the FBI, so far
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and it's only been a month,
they never call him a serial killer.
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They seem to avoid terms like that
quite often they do, and I think
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that the fbis boxed themselves into a
corner with their definition, because if you
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think about two or more murders on
separate occasions, think about somebody who's a
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contract killer, they certainly fit the
definition of a serial killer. So as
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we find them, we'll put them
in our database. We don't go searching
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for the contract killers, but they
would be in there. But those are
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certainly different types of people than somebody
that is killing homeless folks on the street.
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The kind of the term I like
to use instead of serial killer is
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multiple event killer, and then I
think a serial killer is going to be
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a subdivision of that, because when
that term first came out, it was
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coined to describe people who killed in
the series. And most of these multiple
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event killers, again, they fit
the definition of the FBI serial killer,
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but they're not killing in the series. They might kill three people over a
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thirty year period because they're angry,
or they kill people over a period of
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time because they're robbing banks, but
they're different. They're not that serial killer.
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And that's one of the things that
I think that we're going to try
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to do at some point is see
if we can subdivide serial killers into different
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types. We already have started that, but we haven't done any analysis on
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that, and I think we're going
to see some real differences in these kind
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of these subtypes. For example,
a person who is killing women and sexually
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assaulting women is going to be very
different from the person who is killing people
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at seven to eleven. They're still
they're going to be serial killers, but
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they're not the same type of serial
killer. And I think once that research
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really starts again, we're already doing
the categorization of those I think we're going
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to see some really different results,
different patterns. So are you thinking going
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to end up with several different subcategories? Yes, however many that is,
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I'm not sure whether it's going to
be something like ten or twenty. I'm
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not sure. But I think one
of the reasons that profiling has not been
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very successful is because all serial killers
aren't the same. What it could be
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that if you look at a certain
type or subtype, that maybe they share
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a lot more in common and that
profile can be much more accurate, because
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the current profile is certainly not not
very accurate. I was taking a look
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at the landing page for this study
and it states that you utilize over one
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hundred and eighty five data points multiple
murderer methodology, victimology, and statistical analysis.
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Can you talk about those one hundred
and eighty five data points that you
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look at? Sure, but to
save your audience a lot of listening,
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let me put it into categories.
Perfect. That'd be great. Yes,
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So we start off with the actual
murders themselves, in terms of when they
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began and when they ended. What
cities they occurred in, what counties what
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countries. We then go to a
series of columns that describe childhood, So
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when they were born, where they
were born, who were they raised by,
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Did they have problems in school?
What type of education did they have
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at the time of the first murder. Then going to the information about the
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person themselves in terms of where they
abused as a child, Did they have
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the try, did they abuse drugs
or alcohol? Can you explain the triad?
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I'm sorry for those of our listeners
who are not criminologists. The McDonald's
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try. It basically postulates that people
who were aggressive had three common experiences.
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They were having bed wedding past the
age at which you would expect bed wedding.
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They were they were setting fires,
and there was animal abuse, and
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so that was pretty exciting when when
it first came out, But like anything,
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people thought that meant everybody that's a
killer has those characteristics, and if
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you have those characteristics, you're going
to be a killer. And what it
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turns out is that most of your
killers and most murders don't have those characteristics.
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They might have one, but they're
not going to have all three.
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And there are plenty of people who
have those that don't become murders. But
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if you look at the kind of
the probability, those that have all three
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characteristics are probably more likely to become
violent than those that don't. But it's
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not strong enough that you can predict
with those. But if they have those
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three characteristics, regardless of whether they're
going to be violent in the future,
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it's problematic in terms that they're going
through psychological trauma. So it's not one
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of those things that you ignore,
but you don't instantly assume that they're going
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to become a killer. Very interesting, So murder's childhood, emotional factors.
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Any So those are the three main
categories. Were there any others that you
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take a look at. Sure,
And then we go ahead and look at
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the murders themselves in terms of how
they were committed, whether, for example,
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there was something such as necrophilia that
occurred, what type of weapon was
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used, who were their victims,
And then it goes into the outcome of
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when they were arrested, how many
murders were they charged for, did they
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confess, did they plead insanity?
So it goes to pretty much every part
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of their life, in every part
of kind of the murder series. Now,
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I would love to say we have
every bit of that information for every
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killer, but we don't. There
are some things, for example, like
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race and gender that we have information
on for everybody, but then things like
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were there abused as children we might
have information on let's say twenty percent with
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that. And that's a good example, by the way, with the child
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abuse of a difficult variable because if
you're reading the trial transcripts, if the
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person was abused as a child,
it's going to show up, most likely
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in the sentencing part of the trial. But if they weren't abused, it's
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not really going to be mentioned.
So when you see that lack of it
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being mentioned, you don't know if
that's a no or just we don't know,
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And so you have to just be
and so we limit our entries to
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ones that we know, and most
of the ones it just isn't mentioned anywhere.
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And then you have to be careful
too. For example, like with
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Arthur Shawcross, who was the Genesee
River killer, he told all these stories
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about being abused as a child.
When they interviewed his parents. Of course,
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his parents said didn't happen when they
interviewed some relatives they said some of
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it happened and some of it didn't. And that's what you deal with a
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lot, and so you have to
make some judgment calls on who are we
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believing here, And we've changed several
of those codes or ratings over the years
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where we realize what we thought twenty
years ago, there's evidence to suggests either
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it did or didn't happen. This
is pretty data intensive. How long is
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each entry if it's complete, Does
it go on for page after page?
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Oh? No, it's an Excel
spreadsheet. So every serial killer will have
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one row in the database, and
then they'll have hopefully entries in most of
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the columns. And you can add
more data as it becomes available. So
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if you learn new things from an
interview or a court transcript or a well
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researched book, you may add additional
data points as you go along. Oh
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absolutely, yep. And then we
have and this is where it's probably going
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to get start sounding boring, but
in the same file as the rest of
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the database, we have separate tabs
that will automatically calculate all the data Kristen
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that you were looking at in the
board. It's going to automatically update those
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every time we add some new data, so it makes it makes it easier
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to summarize, and it is fascinating. What we'll do. We'll put a
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link to your most recent annual report
into the show notes so that people can
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take a look at it, or
that the most recent one that people have
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access to. I know it's not
all publicly available. It was just fascinating
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sitting there and combing through that because
it is it is just so much interesting
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data to take a look at.
So how did the partnership with Florida Gulf
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Coast University come about? Because this
was originally it started at Radford. How
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did that partnership come about? It
was really interesting. There was a grad
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student at Florida Golf Coast University,
Kristin eLink Sherman, Laura so a long
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name, but she was requested to
access to the deity base to work on
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her thesis. She was looking at
from a remembering rite. It was the
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relationship between military service and serial murder. And she got the idea that it
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would be great to put this thing
online where people could go in and have
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access to it. And I thought
maybe, and so they brought me down
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to Florida Gulf Coast and did a
to meet all their students and they were
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really charged up about doing this,
so let's do it. Dween Daubert was
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the faculty advisor at the at the
time, and so they took the database,
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they went through and they try to
confirm every entry in it, and
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so we went back and forth about
whether they found something wrong, whether I
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thought it was actually wrong or not, or whether the their source was wrong.
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So that went back and forth,
and then they put that online and
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people can try to get access it. Now the online version is way behind.
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That's not hasn't been updated, and
we're working right now with Florida Golf
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Coast to try to update something.
And we're actually starting a new partnership with
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Norwich University in Vermont, and they've
got some just really smart faculty and smart
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people there that Elizabeth Gurri and Rachel
Sickler that are going to take it to
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the next level. So right now
we're going to be working with them and
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in Florida Golf Coast to try to
bring this to the kind of the modern
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times as opposed to my spreadsheet.
Is there such a thing as a typical
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user, like what are some of
the examples of things that people might do
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with the information and the database.
So the typical user is either going to
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be a college professor or a grad
student working on, for example, a
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thesis or a dissertation that has a
particular question in mind that they're trying to
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answer. So we'll provide the database
to them and they will use what we
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have but also add new information.
For example, if they're going to only
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be concentrated on one thing, for
example, that they can maybe find things
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that we didn't because we're concentrated on
so many different variables, and then we
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can add that to the database as
well. We've had a few folks in
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law enforcement that have asked for it. We thought it would actually we'd get
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many more requests from law enforcement,
but we haven't. Is that because people
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don't know about it, or because
they don't see how they can immediately relate
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that to the work that they're doing. That's a good question. I think
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it's probably a mixture of both.
You're listening to Mind over Murder. We'll
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be right back after this word from
our sponsors. We're back here at mindover
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Murder. So when you hear about
a new serial killer, like Allen Wade
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Wilmer Senior. We talked a little
bit about some of the basic data that
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you can put into the database for
them, so date of birth, so
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on and so forth. What other
sort of information are you looking for when
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you add a new killer to the
database. Would it benefit you, for
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example, to talk to an investigator
that's worked on the case, would as
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long as it was data that we
can publish. Again, so if we
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talked to an investigator said, now
this is off the record, but that's
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not going to help us because we
have to have things that are publicly available.
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Where I think it comes in handy
or where information is to be helpful
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is when we added the victims section. We've added a lot of columns involving
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what went on at the actual murder
site. For example, was a person
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bound, was their torture, was
their overkill? And that can be really
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difficult information to get. But that
some of that information is still very public.
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It's just maybe something we haven't come
across, and so that's the type
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of information that would be helpful.
A lot of that's just not available because
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they hold it back, or if
there's not enough for a trial. For
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a trial, if there's not really
an appeals. It doesn't show up very
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easily. To be able to read
that, you'd have to be able to
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go get the original documents, and
that's more work than eveninem willing to spend.
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Is there a difference in what you
feel you can put into the public
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record depending on whether or not a
serial killer is alive or dead. For
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example, Alan Wade Wilmer Sr.
Died in twenty seventeen. The FBI and
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the Hampton, Virginia Police Department have
confirmed through DNA that he's responsible for the
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murder of at least three people,
and they're looking into more. Kristin and
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I aren't terribly shy about using his
name publicly and saying he's involved in these
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murders, whereas if someone's alive,
maybe they're incarcerated. But are you as
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comfortable sharing data about their crimes?
I am? But the reason I am
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is because we have a column where
we will label the person as, for
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example, serial suspected, serial accused, And so various researchers, for example,
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have made the decision they're only going
to use those that have been convicted
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in their study that being accused of
being suspected is not going to be enough.
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With that kind of hedge, we
feel a little bit more comfortable where
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we're very careful and don't release to
very many researchers is our victim data,
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because it might be, for example, that a particular victim was a prostitute,
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at least that's what the police labeled
that person or the media labeled that
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person. And we've had instances where
people said, I see in their database
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that so and so would kill prostitutes. Well, he killed my daughter and
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she wasn't a pute, and go
back and look at the individual victims,
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and that's exactly right. Let's say
eight of the nine were prostitutes that the
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one person actually wasn't. But when
you're trying to define what's that person's basic
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motive or who are they killing,
it was prostitutes. So I'm really gun
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shy about sharing victim data. For
example, that would never go to a
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grad student. That would have to
be to an academic that we trusted in
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that agreed to be very careful.
And if you have we have several people
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that we are close with in the
community who have survived serial killers. If
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someone has survived an attacked by a
serial killer, do they go into the
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victim database or is there like a
whole separate set of data to go with
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that. That's a great question.
Right now, the only victims we have
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are ones that were killed first a
serial killer. We might list them as,
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for example, two murders plus attempts, So it may be that they
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had three unsuccessful attempts. And we
think that's important because again we find researchers
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don't feel comfortable with the FBI two
or more. They want to maybe go
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three or four, and so they
can then decide is two murders and two
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attempts enough for them to do that. I want to get into some of
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the nitty gritty questions that I came
up with as I was doing my deep
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dive into the data analysis here.
So I'll start with something kind of general,
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and then we'll move into more specifics. What were some of the most
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interesting or surprising pieces of data that
really stood out to you as you went
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and started combing over the database.
I think the biggest surprise, this is
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one I've mentioned previously, is that
there's so many types of serial killers.
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We got just that one term that
wasn't expecting to see that because when we
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started the database. That term was
you conjure up like a Ted Bundy,
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that all of these serial killers we
find are going to be Ted Bundy.
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They're not. And so that was
the biggest surprise and the thing I think
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that's complicated again some of the data
analysis the most is until we really get
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these types figured out, these subtypes, we're not going to make as much
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progress as we wanted. Another thing
I found that was surprising was how inaccurate
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that kind of common profile was.
So the common profile is that it's a
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serial killer, was it's a white
male in their mid to late twenties.
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So that profile, if you look
to say it's nineteen ninety, it's seven
401
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percent fit that profile. That's not
a much of a profile when it's seven
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years old and far from a general
category that would fit most of the crimes
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committed. Yeah, so that's one
And one of the reasons I think that's
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particularly important is that you get somebody
who might be, for example, fifty
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five years old and is black,
and people would say that can't be one
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of our suspects because they don't fit
the profile. Nobody fits your profile,
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so you have to be careful about
about that. Another thing that I found
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really interesting was that there's a thought
that a stereotype that serial killers are going
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to have a certain type of victim, So I'm only going to kill women,
410
00:28:48.599 --> 00:28:51.240
I'm only going to kill somebody with
a certain race or age. Turns
411
00:28:51.279 --> 00:28:55.880
out that only thirty seven percent of
serial killers kill people that are the same
412
00:28:55.920 --> 00:28:57.839
sex, the same race, the
same age. And so again, if
413
00:28:57.880 --> 00:29:03.720
you're law enforcement and you're trying to
determine, trying to link different murders,
414
00:29:03.119 --> 00:29:07.359
and he said, couldn't be this
person couldn't be linked because they were shot
415
00:29:07.359 --> 00:29:11.000
as opposed to stab or this was
a male and most of the victims are
416
00:29:11.000 --> 00:29:14.799
women. It turns out that linkage
is just not there. And I think
417
00:29:14.839 --> 00:29:18.000
when you talked to Thomas Hargraved,
he probably found this. He probably told
418
00:29:18.039 --> 00:29:21.079
you some of the same things.
The linkage is a very difficult thing to
419
00:29:21.680 --> 00:29:26.640
do. I was pushing back on
this issue today regarding discussions in our social
420
00:29:26.680 --> 00:29:33.319
media pages on the Colonial Parkway murders. People are looking for patterns which may
421
00:29:33.400 --> 00:29:37.880
or may not be there. But
for example, I've got several people and
422
00:29:37.920 --> 00:29:41.119
these are well meaning folks, are
supporters of ours and are interested in these
423
00:29:41.160 --> 00:29:45.880
cases. But for instance, I've
got several people insisting, Oh, it's
424
00:29:45.960 --> 00:29:51.519
very clear that Wilmer likes dark haired
women. Yes, there are some victims
425
00:29:51.519 --> 00:29:55.839
with dark hair, but in the
mix there's some blondes and redheads too.
426
00:29:56.200 --> 00:30:00.680
And he has killed both women and
men, and he's killed there's one single
427
00:30:00.720 --> 00:30:06.519
woman and at least one straight couple. And he's suspected of killing a lesbian
428
00:30:06.559 --> 00:30:08.880
couple, my sister and her girlfriend. Now that hasn't been proving yet,
429
00:30:08.920 --> 00:30:15.039
but my point is, boy,
everybody wants to say this particular killer kills
430
00:30:15.160 --> 00:30:18.920
this particular kind of person in this
way, and both Kristin and I are
431
00:30:18.960 --> 00:30:23.720
trying to respectfully push back on that
because the profilers that we've met with and
432
00:30:23.759 --> 00:30:27.640
we've learned a lot and they're fascinating
people. Oh my gosh. Yeah,
433
00:30:27.680 --> 00:30:33.039
it's been so interesting for us to
have opportunities to sit down with these folks,
434
00:30:33.319 --> 00:30:37.599
both on and off the air.
They're saying the same thing that you
435
00:30:37.680 --> 00:30:41.119
are, Mike, which is that
we can't keep insisting that serial killers kill
436
00:30:41.160 --> 00:30:45.960
the same type of victim in the
same type of way, under the same
437
00:30:45.000 --> 00:30:51.359
circumstances. That just doesn't seem to
be anything close to the way profilers in
438
00:30:51.359 --> 00:30:56.240
twenty twenty four are seeing things.
I agree completely, and that's the problem
439
00:30:56.279 --> 00:30:59.240
though, when you have something that
was published at say, thirty forty years
440
00:30:59.240 --> 00:31:03.400
ago, it doesn't go away,
It just keeps it hangs on, regardless
441
00:31:03.400 --> 00:31:07.640
of what the kind of the current
facts are. It makes something else that
442
00:31:07.720 --> 00:31:12.240
I found very interesting, And I'm
wondering if some of this question can be
443
00:31:12.799 --> 00:31:18.240
answered by the idea that maybe there
just wasn't enough reporting going on during these
444
00:31:18.279 --> 00:31:23.440
decades. There is a massive jump
in the number of serial killers between nineteen
445
00:31:23.559 --> 00:31:30.160
fifty and nineteen eighty. You went
from ninety active serial killers in nineteen fifty
446
00:31:30.200 --> 00:31:33.160
to sixty to two hundred and fifty
one to six hundred seventy to eight hundred
447
00:31:33.200 --> 00:31:37.599
and twenty three in nineteen eighty.
Is that a reporting issue or were there
448
00:31:37.640 --> 00:31:41.559
really just a massive jump in the
number of serial killers in this country in
449
00:31:41.599 --> 00:31:47.200
those decades. I think a big
part of it a reporting issue. So
450
00:31:47.279 --> 00:31:51.160
the term serial killer was coined depends
on who you believe, but was coined
451
00:31:51.200 --> 00:31:53.359
in for the most part in the
nineteen seventies. So if you're doing a
452
00:31:53.400 --> 00:31:56.720
search for serial kill like using the
term serial killer, you're not going to
453
00:31:56.759 --> 00:32:00.440
pop up with something in the nineteen
fifties or sixty so you have to look
454
00:32:00.480 --> 00:32:07.000
for headlines that might be killed two, killed three, and so we meticulously
455
00:32:07.039 --> 00:32:09.039
go through when you use all those
kind of combinations to try to find those.
456
00:32:09.440 --> 00:32:15.279
Now, it makes sense that serial
killers means would rise in the fifties,
457
00:32:15.279 --> 00:32:17.839
sixties, and seventies because the interstate
system, there's more access to the
458
00:32:17.880 --> 00:32:22.079
country, and if they're killing in
different states, it's more difficult to perhaps
459
00:32:22.119 --> 00:32:24.759
to be to be identified and caught. But I think so much of it
460
00:32:24.799 --> 00:32:30.119
is a reporting issue that definitely makes
sense. I'm writing that down about the
461
00:32:30.119 --> 00:32:36.240
interstate system because that is not something
that I had previously thought of. It
462
00:32:36.319 --> 00:32:39.119
was interesting to think about the ways
that the country was changing during those time
463
00:32:39.160 --> 00:32:44.480
periods that might lead to those numbers
changing. I'm making sure I'm putting that
464
00:32:44.519 --> 00:32:47.200
down. I guess in the same
sort of vein why is it that the
465
00:32:47.279 --> 00:32:52.839
numbers of serial killers have trended steadily
downwards since nineteen eighty Is that because law
466
00:32:52.920 --> 00:32:59.039
enforcement is getting better at tracking them
in solving cases. Is it just that
467
00:32:59.200 --> 00:33:01.559
maybe serial killers are getting a little
tired and taking a break and going into
468
00:33:01.599 --> 00:33:07.119
retirement. I think there's several things
that are going on there. One is
469
00:33:07.119 --> 00:33:10.960
certainly the law enforcement's gotten better in
terms of things like DNA being able to
470
00:33:12.000 --> 00:33:15.000
link murder, so that's certainly part
of it. Technology, though, I
471
00:33:15.000 --> 00:33:17.200
think, is another one of those
things that has changed. For example,
472
00:33:17.440 --> 00:33:22.079
if you think about serial killers that
are black widows, so those are predominantly
473
00:33:22.079 --> 00:33:25.640
women who kill spouses for usually for
money, But there are other reasons as
474
00:33:25.680 --> 00:33:29.359
well. If you go back to, for example, nineteen twenty or nineteen
475
00:33:29.440 --> 00:33:31.319
thirty, somebody could kill a spouse, move to another state, kill a
476
00:33:31.359 --> 00:33:36.720
spouse, still get the insurance money. Where today all these computers are,
477
00:33:36.759 --> 00:33:39.960
the databases are linked, it would
be very difficult to try to get insurance
478
00:33:39.960 --> 00:33:45.720
on a third spouse that was mysteriously
killed. So I think the technology is
479
00:33:45.720 --> 00:33:49.640
there. When you think about hospitals
serial killers who kill their patients, the
480
00:33:49.720 --> 00:33:52.920
software is out there now that you
have expected death rates for every type of
481
00:33:53.000 --> 00:33:58.279
illness, and when those death rates
exceed a certain level, it's flagged.
482
00:33:58.440 --> 00:34:00.759
So those are some of the reasons. But I think there's really two main
483
00:34:00.839 --> 00:34:07.960
reasons that are responsible for this decline. One is change in parole. If
484
00:34:07.000 --> 00:34:09.719
you look at the seventies and eighties, for example, where the serial killer
485
00:34:09.800 --> 00:34:14.199
rates were highest, there was a
lot of pressure to parole people, the
486
00:34:14.239 --> 00:34:17.000
prisons were overcrowded, there was kind
of a movement toward prison reform. So
487
00:34:17.199 --> 00:34:22.480
we're releasing people then that would maybe
become serial killers. An interesting fact is
488
00:34:22.519 --> 00:34:27.920
that in our database, eighteen percent
of the serial killers in our database had
489
00:34:28.039 --> 00:34:32.079
killed, gone to prison and been
released. And so if you are more
490
00:34:32.079 --> 00:34:37.840
strict on parole, I think that's
one of the reasons people which we are
491
00:34:37.920 --> 00:34:42.920
these days. I think that is
one of the explanations. And the other
492
00:34:42.960 --> 00:34:47.239
one is there are just fewer high
risk behaviors that people engage in today.
493
00:34:47.639 --> 00:34:51.880
So when I think about when I
was growing up, I rode my bike
494
00:34:51.960 --> 00:34:57.360
everywhere, I hitchhiked, I picked
up hitchhikers, I walked to elementary school.
495
00:34:57.559 --> 00:35:00.079
Today, there are no parents that
are going to let you do that.
496
00:35:00.159 --> 00:35:02.559
There are very few people who would
hitchhikers hitch hikers. And so we
497
00:35:02.599 --> 00:35:07.960
did an analysis of comparing in the
seventies and eighties the percentage of murders that
498
00:35:08.000 --> 00:35:13.840
were serial killers, serial murders that
were of high risk behaviors such as hitch
499
00:35:13.920 --> 00:35:17.320
hiking, and helping people who with
stranded motorists with the ones from the last
500
00:35:17.599 --> 00:35:22.519
two decades, and there's such a
drop. It's a huge drop. And
501
00:35:22.599 --> 00:35:25.199
when you think about cell phones,
thirty years ago, if your car broke
502
00:35:25.280 --> 00:35:28.960
down, you'd either have to get
in a car with somebody or have them
503
00:35:29.000 --> 00:35:31.199
go to the gas station to use
a payphone. Now you're not going to
504
00:35:31.320 --> 00:35:34.480
let anybody in your car. You're
not going to get in their car.
505
00:35:34.519 --> 00:35:36.960
You're going to use your cell phone
call for help. And so I think
506
00:35:37.000 --> 00:35:40.039
a lot of those high risk behaviors
have changed. A few days ago,
507
00:35:40.320 --> 00:35:44.719
my partner Pamela and I were driving
along the country road and there was a
508
00:35:44.760 --> 00:35:47.880
pickup truck parked next to the road
on this kind of straight, quiet stretch.
509
00:35:49.239 --> 00:35:52.800
The hazard drawn on and we didn't
see anybody in the vehicle. But
510
00:35:52.880 --> 00:35:55.760
then a couple one hundred yards down
the road, and this is wintertime,
511
00:35:57.079 --> 00:36:00.880
snowy and cold, there's a woman
walking along on the road. We stopped.
512
00:36:01.000 --> 00:36:05.840
I tried to let Haamla be visible, so she leaned forward. But
513
00:36:06.079 --> 00:36:10.039
we just stopped briefly to ask if
the woman was all right, and she
514
00:36:10.159 --> 00:36:14.239
smiled and said she was, and
it looked like she was actually out for
515
00:36:14.320 --> 00:36:16.880
a walk. And I'm not even
sure that was her truck. Necessarily,
516
00:36:17.039 --> 00:36:21.039
she told us she was fine and
she was just out for a walk on
517
00:36:21.079 --> 00:36:24.000
a beautiful winter day. We just
wanted to make certain that she wasn't out
518
00:36:24.039 --> 00:36:29.480
there in the boonies without a cell
phone or whatever. So she smiled,
519
00:36:29.480 --> 00:36:34.239
and she seemed accepting of the fact
that we'd made this offer of assistance.
520
00:36:34.800 --> 00:36:38.400
In listening to you just now,
Mike, I'm thinking maybe that's increasingly rare.
521
00:36:39.039 --> 00:36:44.519
I think it is. Yeah.
Absolutely. Do you have enough information
522
00:36:44.760 --> 00:36:50.679
yet to draw any conclusions on how
the pandemic affected the number and type of
523
00:36:50.760 --> 00:36:54.000
serial killers? I realized we're really
barely out of the pandemic. Has there
524
00:36:54.039 --> 00:36:59.480
been any information that you can lean
about how that affected serial killers? And
525
00:36:59.639 --> 00:37:04.039
there are activities not at this point. One reason would be is that there
526
00:37:04.079 --> 00:37:07.880
have not really been a lot of
serial murders over the last few years,
527
00:37:07.119 --> 00:37:10.079
which is a good thing, but
it's a bad thing for data, so
528
00:37:10.199 --> 00:37:15.400
it would be difficult to do that. There's a lag period really between oftentimes
529
00:37:15.559 --> 00:37:20.400
the serial killings and then when they're
arrested and whether it gets announced. So
530
00:37:20.679 --> 00:37:23.119
I would say it'll be at least
a decade before we could start to address
531
00:37:23.159 --> 00:37:27.920
that. Question. Oh wow,
Okay, that does make sense though.
532
00:37:27.960 --> 00:37:35.079
Absolutely. Do you feel like the
advances in forensic technology and manly the things
533
00:37:35.320 --> 00:37:39.920
we've talked about over the last few
minutes have discouraged people who might have exhibited
534
00:37:39.960 --> 00:37:44.599
these behaviors in the past. That's
a great question, and I've had those
535
00:37:44.599 --> 00:37:49.800
conversations with colleagues, and my initial
response to you is, I don't know,
536
00:37:50.239 --> 00:37:52.320
because it can go both ways,
right. It can be now that
537
00:37:52.400 --> 00:37:57.920
I know what these advances and forensics
are, I'm going to avoid leaving fingerprints.
538
00:37:57.960 --> 00:38:00.800
I'm going to avoid leaving DnaB and
so it could be to encourage some
539
00:38:01.039 --> 00:38:05.079
that think that they can avoid it, or for some of them, it
540
00:38:05.159 --> 00:38:07.039
may be They're going to catch me, so I'm not going to do it.
541
00:38:07.400 --> 00:38:09.800
And that would depend, I think
on the again, like the subtype
542
00:38:09.800 --> 00:38:13.360
of serial killer, because there are
going to be some killers that they haven't
543
00:38:13.400 --> 00:38:15.280
need to kill, and they're going
to probably kill no matter what. But
544
00:38:15.320 --> 00:38:20.159
I think some of these ones that
maybe kill for financial gain that may have
545
00:38:20.159 --> 00:38:22.519
slown that pace down a little bit. Just occurred to me when you were
546
00:38:22.519 --> 00:38:28.519
talking earlier about subdividing different types of
killers. Are you eventually going to have
547
00:38:28.559 --> 00:38:32.360
a different database for mass shooters and
spree shooters. Is that going to become
548
00:38:32.360 --> 00:38:36.360
a whole separate database or are they
just going to exist on the serial killer
549
00:38:36.440 --> 00:38:38.599
database? Yeah, they don't exist. The mass killers don't exist in our
550
00:38:38.679 --> 00:38:42.480
database. Oh they don't, Okay, don't. And I know that there
551
00:38:42.519 --> 00:38:46.679
are several researchers that have developed databases
on mass killers, and so I think
552
00:38:46.760 --> 00:38:51.519
that's well taken care of by some
other folks. The one that was more
553
00:38:51.559 --> 00:38:55.599
difficult for spree killers because again with
the FBI basically said that they don't really
554
00:38:55.599 --> 00:39:00.599
distinguish between cereal and spree in terms
of the motives and those types of things,
555
00:39:00.880 --> 00:39:06.400
and so we will include those but
labeled them as within our database as
556
00:39:06.480 --> 00:39:09.440
spree and again, researchers can make
their own decision about whether they want to
557
00:39:09.440 --> 00:39:12.599
include them or not. One of
the things we've tried to do is be
558
00:39:12.880 --> 00:39:16.440
overly inclusive and then let researchers who
use the database make their decisions about who
559
00:39:16.480 --> 00:39:19.800
stays and who goes, and whether
they have to have a certain type of
560
00:39:19.800 --> 00:39:23.400
motive or not. Do you know
if any serial killers who are currently incarcerated
561
00:39:23.519 --> 00:39:29.440
have ever been permitted to access the
database? I know that there are people
562
00:39:29.480 --> 00:39:34.639
that are currently incarcerated that do have
internet access that actually have made use of
563
00:39:34.679 --> 00:39:37.920
their time. But I didn't know
if they ever had looked themselves or other
564
00:39:37.960 --> 00:39:42.159
people up in the database. To
have access, they would have had to
565
00:39:42.199 --> 00:39:45.840
make a formal request, and if
we saw, for example, that it
566
00:39:45.920 --> 00:39:49.639
was coming from a prison, it
would be declined. But it doesn't mean
567
00:39:49.679 --> 00:39:52.039
that again that they don't can't get
somebody else to request it for them.
568
00:39:52.280 --> 00:39:57.159
I've noticed that I've had several requests
from students where I've said, yeah,
569
00:39:57.360 --> 00:40:00.760
we'll give you this part of the
database. Here's the condition, so you
570
00:40:00.800 --> 00:40:04.920
need to agree to those and please
copy your advisor on the email and the
571
00:40:05.000 --> 00:40:07.039
way I can look up the advisor
make sure they exist. I've had several
572
00:40:07.039 --> 00:40:10.000
times where the student didn't get back. I thought, yes, because it's
573
00:40:10.039 --> 00:40:14.519
not for a class project. That
must mean you have people trying to access
574
00:40:14.559 --> 00:40:17.679
the database just for I'm interested in
serial killers, but not in an academic
575
00:40:17.719 --> 00:40:22.039
way. What we do and the
one where I struggle with now is I
576
00:40:22.079 --> 00:40:25.840
get requests from students who are in
data science programs, so they need a
577
00:40:25.920 --> 00:40:30.239
database to be able to do a
class project for data science, and they
578
00:40:30.239 --> 00:40:35.199
think serial killers are interesting, but
they're not really trying to study serial killers,
579
00:40:35.519 --> 00:40:38.360
and so in those situations, I'll
usually ask them what fields do you
580
00:40:38.400 --> 00:40:42.679
want and give them maybe a smaller
number of fields. We don't give them
581
00:40:42.679 --> 00:40:45.159
the whole thing, and then I
don't give them the names of the serial
582
00:40:45.239 --> 00:40:47.880
killers. That way they can run
their data and not worry about privacy aspects.
583
00:40:49.559 --> 00:40:52.599
Mike, what can we do to
help you with data on Alan Wade
584
00:40:52.639 --> 00:40:58.559
Wilmer Senior so that we can round
out his entry in your database? We
585
00:40:58.599 --> 00:41:01.119
want to give you as much help
as possible, because obviously we have invested
586
00:41:01.079 --> 00:41:05.440
interest in his activities. So tell
us how we can help you. We
587
00:41:05.480 --> 00:41:08.719
would love to be able to that's
and I appreciate that. Probably the easiest
588
00:41:08.719 --> 00:41:14.360
thing would be if I sent you
both the victim and the serial killer data
589
00:41:14.440 --> 00:41:16.039
that we already have. Have you
take a look to see if there are
590
00:41:16.320 --> 00:41:20.239
fields that you can fill in that
I have blank, and that would be
591
00:41:20.280 --> 00:41:23.039
great perfect. We would love to
be able to help in any way we
592
00:41:23.079 --> 00:41:27.960
can on that. How long do
you see yourself continuing to do work on
593
00:41:28.000 --> 00:41:30.119
the databasis? Is just going to
be an all the time thing? Or
594
00:41:30.280 --> 00:41:34.039
is this your baby and you're invested
in it. It's my baby, and
595
00:41:34.079 --> 00:41:37.480
I'm invested in it, so I
will all continue to do it. But
596
00:41:37.559 --> 00:41:40.880
I think that's why the kind of
the relationships or the partnerships with Florida Gulf
597
00:41:40.920 --> 00:41:45.320
Coast and Norwich are important because they
can take it to a different level.
598
00:41:45.679 --> 00:41:49.480
So I'm going to still work on
it because it's fun. It's like being
599
00:41:49.519 --> 00:41:52.719
a little detective. And it's terrible
when you get excited because you found a
600
00:41:52.719 --> 00:41:55.920
birth date, but it makes my
day, and so I'll continue to do
601
00:41:57.000 --> 00:42:00.599
that even after I retire. But
I think that again, with those two
602
00:42:00.679 --> 00:42:04.559
universities, they're going to take it
to that next level. Doctor Mike ah
603
00:42:04.599 --> 00:42:08.400
Mottz, formerly of Redford University,
the inventor, shall i say, of
604
00:42:08.440 --> 00:42:14.400
the Radford University of Florida Gulf Coast
University Serial Killer Research Database. Mike,
605
00:42:14.440 --> 00:42:17.559
thank you so much for joining us
today and lending us your considerable expertise.
606
00:42:17.599 --> 00:42:21.159
We appreciate it. Oh, I
enjoyed it. It was great to meet
607
00:42:21.199 --> 00:42:22.800
both of you. Thank you so
much. That is going to do it
608
00:42:22.840 --> 00:42:25.960
for this episode of mind Over Murder. Thank you so much for listening.
609
00:42:27.280 --> 00:42:39.760
We'll see you next time. Mind
Over Murder is a production of Absolute Zero
610
00:42:40.199 --> 00:42:45.719
and Another Dog Productions. Our executive
producers are Bill Thomas and Kristin Dilley.
611
00:42:46.079 --> 00:42:52.239
Our logo art is by Pamela Arnois. Our theme music is by Kevin McLeod.
612
00:42:52.760 --> 00:42:57.719
Mind Over Murder is distributed in partnership
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613
00:42:57.760 --> 00:43:00.760
follow us on Facebook, Twitter,
or in Instagram. You can also follow
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our page on the Colonial Parkway Murders
on Facebook, and finally, you can
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follow Bill Thomas on Twitter at Bill
Thomas. Five six. Thank you for
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listening to mind Over Murder.