NEW: Ancestry.com Rules Block Law Enforcement Searches

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You're listening to the Mind Over Murder podcast.
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My name is Bill Thomas. I'm a writer, consulting, producer,
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and now podcaster. I am now trying to use my
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experience as the brother of a murder victim to help
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other victims of violent crime. I'm working on a book
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on the unsolved Colonial Parkway murders, and I'm the co
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administrator of the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook group together with
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Kristin Dilly.
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My name is Kristin Dilly.
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I'm a writer, a researcher, a teacher, and a victim's advocate,
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as well as the social media manager and co administrator
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for the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook page with my partner
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in crime, Bill Thomas.
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It's important to note that this podcast was recorded a
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couple of weeks ago, just before we got the latest
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solved in the Colonial Parkway murders, that of my sister
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Kathy Thomas and Rebecca Dowski. So when I'm referencing Alan
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Wade wilmer Se being linked to four homicides, that number
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is now six. Now on with the show, Welcome to
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mind Over Murder. I'm Bill Thomas. My podcast partner, Kristin
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Dilly is not here this week. She is away on assignment,
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but should be back next time. Here on Mind over Murder. Today,
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we have a very special guest, and I'm going to
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struggle pronouncing her last name. It's okay, Jennifer Boocholts. Is
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that closed?
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I got a prompt?
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Oh, okay, I practiced, Jennifer. Welcome.
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Thank you so much for having me. Bill.
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Tell us a little bit about yourself, and don't be modest.
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I'll try to keep it short. I'm an Army veteran.
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I served in the US Army as a counter intelligence agent,
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and I've done tours in Iraq and Afghanistan, and I've
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done enforced Protection Operation Lizard called all around the world
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as a contractor for different agencies. Several years back, I
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went and got my master's in forensic science and started
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teaching forensics and criminal justice at American Military University, and
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I'm still there as a part time instructor. Now. I'm
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currently a cold case investigator for the Opatha County Sheriff's
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office in Colorado, not Texas, but that's fair to mix
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them up that they get half in Bolotin. I'm actually
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a civilian criminal investigator, so I'm not badged. But I
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can do pretty much everything the detectives can do except
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arrest somebody or swear under oath before a judge for
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something like a search one. But I do interviews, interrogations,
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my foot bunsard warms all the time, write rewards, whatever,
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work alongside the detectives. And like I said, I teach
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part time. And then my civilian non work investigative partner
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George Jared and I host a podcast called Break the Cakes,
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and we also co founded a nonprofit by the same name.
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So we're dedicated to trying to help families and law
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enforcement with unsolved home side cases around the country.
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And the work that you do with Break the Case
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that's volunteer work, is it not.
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Yes, and completely separate from my position to the Sheriff's office.
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I keep the two separate.
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Like you didn't have enough on your plate, then you
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had to start a podcast where among your distinguished guests,
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and I'll put myself in a less distinguished category.
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No.
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No, I've suggested with you and George several years ago,
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and then we've seen each other at Crime con and
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other conferences, and I always feel like we have these
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fantastic conversations which are not long enough.
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It's really hard though, when you're standing on your table
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and you've got tons of people commide one and speak
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to you and Kristen.
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Yeah, one of the great things about crime Con is
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you see so many people that you know and respect
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and can learn from. In addition to meeting friends and
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fans and all that stuff. I love the networking that
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can take place. And I can't count how many people
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I've met at crime Con and other true crime conferences
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that have proven to be incredibly helpful in terms of
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educating christ an enemy about various aspects in terms of
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their own areas of expertise. That has great value too.
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Oh for sure. And I'm always looking for outside resources
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that I call a lot of particular case for assistance
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or something. So networking the most valuable part.
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Do you feel like there's a through line here with
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your army experience and counterintelligence and then moving into more
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of a law enforcement and an investigative role. I do so.
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Counter intelligence is an investigative role. We were badged in
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the army and on investigative status in most of the
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places I was assigned. It's just a different type of investigation.
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The cycle of investigation is pretty much the same no
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matter what type of case you're working on. But in
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addition to that, I think the most valuable things that
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bridge those gaps between the two career lines is my
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interview and interrogation experience from the Army. He was in Afghanistan.
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I interviewed over five hundred local Afghan nationals. Got some
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amazing experience there in interviewing and interrogation, and it's some
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in Iraq. Know as much, I was doing some different
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stuff when I was in Iraq, but have you worked
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in South Korea with different human sources, lots of interviewing there.
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It's just very interview heavy, and of course that really
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teaches you like about human behavior in general and nonverbal behavior, right,
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and all those little things that you see on the
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via that you're supposed to pick up on Carring is
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across in the cold case investigations a lot, because we're
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always going back and reinterviewing people or finding new people
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to interview. So I think my skill set is directly
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applicable there in the patience level that you're taught when
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you work in color intelligence. You know, the ultimate goal
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of counterintelligence is to recruit human sources to give you
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information about your adversary, and so if you're at wartime,
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that's going to be whatever country you're fighting. But you
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learn in ait the very beginning of your training in
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the army that you're just going to be one part
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of that process and you may never get to see
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the end result of what happens with that source. But
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your work, no matter what it is very important. But
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you have to have so much patience. And so patience
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is definitely a virtue, and that definitely carries over into
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cold case investigations because you've got to be patients not
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going to happen right away like with a brand new case.
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But I enjoy that because it gives me so much
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more time to become a subject matter expert on a case,
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really evaluate it. It makes freadsheets Lambily's notes, and I
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could take my time of me methodical and I love
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that software cuttings, but I love it.
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Would there be a lot of work with translators because
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here I am listening to you talk about being in Iraq, Afghanistan, Korea,
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you weren't necessarily always conducting those investigations or those interrogations
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in the person's native language. Where you would you be
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working in a partnership with a translator. Yep.
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In Korea, we had a Korean, a lincol guy who's
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grown up in South Korea. He was assigned to us
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as a full time translator, so we had him wherever
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we need to go or whatever, because, Yeah, most of
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the kre instance speak English. With innovating and interrogating, if
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you can conduct it in that person's native language, it's
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better than trying to get them to think through the
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wording to translate themselves. Yeah, and iraqis Afghanistan the same things.
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A few Iraqis I worked with did speak decent English.
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Usually I'd still take an interpreter with me. And Afghanistan,
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nearly every interview I conducted was in their local language
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with an interpreter. Right, I just don't speak their language.
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And I suppose in all of those examples, you're looking
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for thoughtful answers from this individual, and most of us
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are going to think in our native language. So it
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actually was simpler to ask someone in their native language
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so they could think about their answer and provide you, yeah,
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a good in depth answer. But I suppose the trust
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of your translator partner is absolutely critical to hear too.
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Because say that you need like details, you.
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Have to have an excellent working relationship with your interpreter,
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and we would do a lot of training with them
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on We would have to train them to pick up
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on things we couldn't.
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Yes, I would.
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Don't you think they're lying or you know they're lying.
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You've got to convey that to me.
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Don't just think I'm going to get it.
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Correct and we can take a break and walk out
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of the room and talk about whatever's going on. But
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you've got to convey your thoughts that are in your
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head to me because I can interpret their body language
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and stuff. But still different because with a different culture.
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Yeah, culturally, but you're literally on the other side of
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the world. Culturally, you want you didn't grow up there,
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and here's this five foot ten blonde woman asking all
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these questions. I know we were talking off air about
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the fact that in certain places in the world, like
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in Germany and Norway you mentioned you fit right in.
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And then, knowing that you'd worked in Iraq and Afghanistan,
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I thought to myself, and in Iraq and Afghanistan, I'll
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bet a five to ten blond woman really stood out.
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In some way. But a lot of the people I
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worked with or talked with were intrigued.
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Oh they were.
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Yeah, they would ask me questions too, And I don't
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mind that in an interrogation, right, most of the stuff
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I was doing was interviewing the difference. I don't mind
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answering questions. What's it like in there? Sim uh huh dog.
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Then then after getting sant Obama is an outre So
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what do you think about Obama compared to Oh, yeah,
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we have to go down this road.
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But it's interesting because people from another country would be
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asking you about US presidents and things like that. But
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I find even in my working with people from around
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the world, they're very interested in what goes on in
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the United States politically, socially, even entertainment wise. Yes, movies
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and television shows and all that stuff. They have a
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great deal of interest.
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Yes, it's so different to them to what they're used to.
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So what brought you to Colorado?
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Colorado is my first thirty station in the Army. I
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was stationed at Fort Carson. I really enjoyed it when
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I was stationed here. The mountains are really close by,
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tons of hiking and wreck climbing, and I liked to
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skie so it has all the outdoor stuff and four seasons.
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And ironically, my husband, who was Air Force, we were
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stationed here at the same time, but we didn't meet here.
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Oh that's interesting.
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You actually met in Korea. And then I got out
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of the Army. We were in Florida because he was
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stationed at Florida and we really didn't like Florida. Yeah,
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so he got out, We're like, where do you want
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to go? So we both kind of like Colorado situated
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halfway between our families. And then he got accepted to
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the University of Colorado for engineering, and so we just
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ended up moving back and we've been here ever since.
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Oh got it. I wasn't sure if it was a
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work thing, but it was really one of those where
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where do we go from here? Question?
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Out in a way we can go where we want.
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When I was working back then, I was traveling, so
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if I was hold, you could live wherever you want
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in the US and the flight to where you needed to.
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So it was a fun decision.
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And then what kind of cases have kept you busiest with?
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Break the Case both the podcast and your nonprofit organization.
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You and George Jarrett have been working together for how
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long now.
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It willed begs years this month. Sorry, I had to
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think it was January thirtieth of twenty nineteen that we
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met over the phone, that we got connected at the
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hip on the Rebecca Gold case. It had a positive
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outcome on that one her killers now serving forty years.
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Wow, fantastic work.
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For those who don't know the case. I'll just be
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real short.
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Were they Oh sure?
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Unting out there and all over our website too. You
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can go look at all the content. But ultimately her
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killer joined a Facebook group that George and I were
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admins of and he was making comments and then he
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started direct messaging me in twenty twenty and we had.
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A and this is under his name, his real name,
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And was this a name that was already known to
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you as a potential suspect, not as a suspect.
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So when he joined the group, one of our crowdsourcing
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team members that gets picked a caller Miranda. She's amazing,
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she's great in genealogy. She had mapped the whole family
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tree of Rebecca's boyfriend, and that was important because Rebecca
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was killed inside her boyfriend's house and then her body
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was moved to a secondary location when someone tried to
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clean the scene, so I just know from experience, like
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with someone then't that much effort. They got a known
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connection to the victim, right of course, were eyeballing the
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boyfriend and like, how did he get cleared and does
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he actually have an alibi? And if it's not him,
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then somebody connected to.
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Him to him.
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Yeah, So this guy named Larry Miller joined our Facebook
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group and Miranda says, hey, by the way, that's Casey's
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first cousin. Okay, that's interesting, and you see there's real name,
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all right, But we did a bunch of research and
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at the tire Rebecca's murder, William was living in Texas
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with a wife and a small child, and we didn't
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no reason to believe he was anywhere near the state
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of Arkansas with like twelve hours the way. So that's
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why he was never a suspect to us. But we
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weren't curious why he was in the group, and then
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he definitely lied to me when we were d mding
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each other, I found roundabout ways to ask how did
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you find out about this murder? Living overseas working in
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the oil industry, And so he went to great lengths
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to keep his relationship to the family private, but it
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knew so I played don't but I was like, that's interesting,
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but we still don't have a reason. I think he'd
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been in the state of Arkansas within about six weeks
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before his arrest. Swinney, we got the magic tip.
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From somebody that put him there.
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Found out he had come to visit that weekend because
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his mom and brother were living in the area, and
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that was another piece of the puzzle we did not know.
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Wow, something went to.
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Huge lengths to cover up the fact that these three
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were in the area at the time for murder.
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By the time it was confirmed that he was in
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Arkansas at the time of Rebecca Goulds murder, were you
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suspicious of him by that point.
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No. It was that piece of information that changed our
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whole focus right then, where we're like, okay, okay, there's
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these two brothers that nobody ever admitted were in the
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state at the time. One of them has got to
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be involved in this at a minimum, but we didn't
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know which brother. We were looking at both the brothers,
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like doing as much ancestry and back hoomb research as
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we could have to figure out everything we could about them.
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What's really disheartening about this case is that William Miller's
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name had been in the case file since the first week.
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Of course, police had known he'd.
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Been in the state, and they didn't think it was
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weird that he fled with state the day after, and
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that his mom packed up her entire house and moved
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to Texas the week of the murder.
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How is that even possible that someone that blows town
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right after this Brital murder doesn't move on to law
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enforcement's radar.
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I don't know, because obviously as soon as we found out,
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we were alarmed.
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Oh no, all yeah, so without question.
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So in November of twenty twenty, and part of the
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problem with this case is that they'd had the same
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detective onage for fourteen years who believed that this was
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a drug deal gone wrong.
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And he was locked into that theory.
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And it was completely false. We know that now he
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completely publicly accused this guy with no evidence, oh boy,
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and basically ruined his wife. But anyways, outside in twenty twenty,
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they also got a new detective on it. Finally he
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let an open mind, so she went back to the beginning,
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and he started looking at William Miller unbeknown to us,
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moved out to Oregon where William was in November and
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interviewed them, and William.
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Confessed, so really that part of it was a new detective,
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fresh eyes, not being locked into past theories.
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Yes, correct?
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Was your relationship with the new detective? Was it able
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to be a cooperative one?
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It was okay. It was falsely a one way road
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where if we found information that seemed important, we would
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pass it to him. He did call me in Georgia
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a couple times with questions. He was in our Facebook
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group under fake name, he told us then he was
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I don't know which fake person he was.
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Yeah, maybe better for you not to know just exactly. Yeah,
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John Smith was a member of the Facebook group.
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I was just happy he was watching working around. So
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there was some collaboration, But honestly, after the conviction, we
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asked if we could meet with him because we wanted
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to better understand what did we do that helped, What
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could we have done better? Did we overstep? And he
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refused to meet with us.
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Oh my, because we're.
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So basically talked to us ever since, and the story
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is actually not over because the way I am confessor
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Rebecca's murder, he confessed to five other murders, but with
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the other five he claimed they were sex workers, so
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he didn't know their names, so he couldn't tell and
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best meters exactly through and he did get some details.
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He did give some locations Arkansas. They pleased didn't do
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anything about those extra confessions, those additional confessions.
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Excuse me, wow, how disappointing.
337
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Been trying to work on that on our own ver and.
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You've worked on other cases as well. For again, this
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is all at no charge. This is out of the
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goodness of your heart.
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Really ever take money from a victim's family. Never.
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And you mentioned something which is I think our reason
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for this conversation today. You mentioned in the Rebecca Gould case,
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which had a tremendous outcome, will you identify a suspect?
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And if Arkansas law enforcement doesn't want to acknowledge your role,
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I guess we'll just have to live with that. But
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it sounds like you played a pretty major role in
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helping build this case against this suspect. You mentioned using
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ancestry to help you build out family trees, and I
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know you've done this successfully in other cases. You and
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I were talking about this a week or so back
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and we thought we should get together and talk about
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it on the podcast. What's going on with the changes
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in what they call the terms of service for ancestry
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dot com, which I know many of us, myself included
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use for family DNA research. My understanding is that mid
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last year ancestry dot com made change to their terms
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of service. What does that mean for investigators like yourself?
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I mean the giant mess It was actually a lean November,
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I believe, but they change their terms of service. So previously,
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as me working for somebody in law enforcement, we were
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not allowed to upload a DNA profile and Ancestry we
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understood that right weren't supposed to use it to try
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and identify suspects. But we could use it and I
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have done this extensively at work. We could use it
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to build chandy trees of missing persons or to help
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us an attempt to identify the owner of unidentified human remains.
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So I did this on at least a half dozen
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of our cases at work. Part of my purpose with
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a couple of the missing persons cases is because I
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discovered that we didn't have a relative's DNA of the
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missing person and coded so built these family truths to
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identify which relatives of the missing person were still alive,
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and then figure out which is the one that's going
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to share the most DNA with the person, And then
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I would use my law enforcement out of bases to
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find that person's phone number, usually because they might not
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live here and won't explain what I'm doing. And you
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never had any problem with anybody giving me the DNA.
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And again, we wanted to make sure that for each
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missing person case we had a relative's DNA and CODUS
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and then a name US which is another database for
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missing and unidentified persons. So now with the updated terms
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of service, and this is the direct quote from their website,
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but we are not chusing services in connection with any
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law enforcement investigation or judicial perceiving, which means I can't
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even use it like in the examples they just gave
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to try to locate the missing person's relative. Can't begin
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to understand who wouldn't want that done?
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Yeah, this whole thing seems in it just completely insane.
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I don't want to move too quickly past something, which
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is that for those situations where law enforcement is uploading
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a profile, a DNA profile of either a missing person
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or a suspect in an investigation, and they're uploading those
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00:20:01.759 --> 00:20:07.640
two Jedmatch and Family Treat DNA because those two databases
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permit law enforcement to upload an unknown person or a
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suspect into their databases. But no one's trying to upload
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into Ancestry or there's there's my Heritage, and so many
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other popular sites, but the only two that allow uploads
400
00:20:28.559 --> 00:20:31.400
are jed match and family Tree DNA. Am I correct?
401
00:20:32.119 --> 00:20:36.279
That's correct, and an author has one they've started well, DNA.
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00:20:36.039 --> 00:20:38.680
Solves, which I know is a bit smaller, but every
403
00:20:39.039 --> 00:20:44.200
DNA database could potentially offer a lead to law enforcement
404
00:20:44.359 --> 00:20:47.079
in those situations. But there are no violations of terms
405
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of service when someone does that.
406
00:20:49.240 --> 00:20:52.720
That's correct. So another quote from they're updated terms of
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00:20:52.759 --> 00:20:56.839
service is that users are not to use information obtained
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from Ancestry DNA services, whether they're in whole or art
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in combination with any other database or service for law
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00:21:03.759 --> 00:21:07.000
enforcement like so basically acting only half a law enforcement
411
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or helping law enforcement or any judicial proceeding. So it's
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not only that I, as a Sheriff's office employee, can't
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00:21:13.880 --> 00:21:16.640
use it. I can't ask a failing member of my
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00:21:16.759 --> 00:21:19.920
missing person, say to go to their Ancestry account and
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could you look in your tree for me and tell
416
00:21:21.920 --> 00:21:24.640
me this, that or the other. Technically not allowed to
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do that. The other thing we've done in the past
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is ordered at home Leona kids from Ancestry for victims'
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family members to take and upload into Ancestry so that
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they can see if they number one get a mash
421
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to their missing person, there is an off chance that
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the missing person is out there alive.
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Absolutely yeah.
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Or also to help us find relatives. And again we've
425
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never had anybody have an issue doing that for us,
426
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but now that's we're not allowed to do that either.
427
00:21:52.319 --> 00:21:56.359
I'm outraged. I think what Ancestry is trying to do
428
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is so overstepping their bounds. First of all, well, where
429
00:22:00.480 --> 00:22:04.519
do they get off telling the family member of a
430
00:22:04.519 --> 00:22:08.839
missing person, for example, that they can't upload their DNA
431
00:22:08.960 --> 00:22:12.319
as part of a quest. Look, my family found a
432
00:22:12.480 --> 00:22:15.119
half sister we knew nothing about, which has been an
433
00:22:15.160 --> 00:22:19.000
exciting journey in and out of itself. I'm sure conversation
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for another day, but we have a new sister and
435
00:22:21.839 --> 00:22:25.559
we're thrilled to have her. I don't see how Ancestry
436
00:22:25.839 --> 00:22:28.640
has a leg to stand on in terms of you
437
00:22:28.759 --> 00:22:31.880
telling a family member, here's a home kit, spit in
438
00:22:31.880 --> 00:22:35.119
this tomb like we've all done, and upload your DNA.
439
00:22:35.200 --> 00:22:38.480
This might help in the search for your lost loved
440
00:22:38.519 --> 00:22:42.720
one or your murdered sibling, like in my example, a
441
00:22:42.759 --> 00:22:44.720
sister Kathy is a murder victim as part of the
442
00:22:44.759 --> 00:22:48.000
Colonial Parkway murders. I don't even think they're standing on
443
00:22:48.160 --> 00:22:51.640
very firm ground here. They have no right to tell
444
00:22:51.680 --> 00:22:54.039
you what you can do. We all pay for our
445
00:22:54.079 --> 00:22:59.119
subscriptions to ancestry where you were doing genealogical research. I'm
446
00:22:59.160 --> 00:23:02.039
looking into the promises and the mcneces, which is my
447
00:23:02.119 --> 00:23:04.480
mom's maiden name, which is one of the ways we
448
00:23:04.599 --> 00:23:08.200
ended up finding my new half sister. This is crazy.
449
00:23:08.279 --> 00:23:11.440
I don't even think they're standing on very firm ground here.
450
00:23:11.920 --> 00:23:15.039
And not only is applying to ancestry dot com, but
451
00:23:15.160 --> 00:23:18.319
the other databases that I guess they control, well, I
452
00:23:18.319 --> 00:23:21.319
don't know if they own, but that includes find a grank,
453
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which I thought was a totally public website that any civilian.
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User companion inform each and we infuse that in our
455
00:23:28.079 --> 00:23:28.599
case too.
456
00:23:28.920 --> 00:23:33.559
Yeah, so I have a homicide victim from nineteen eighty eight. Oh,
457
00:23:33.599 --> 00:23:35.599
she has a daughter who was one year old when
458
00:23:35.640 --> 00:23:38.079
she was killed. I knew the daughter had been in
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the military. I'm using all my law enforcing databases like
460
00:23:41.200 --> 00:23:44.279
she and not find this girl. None of the information's correct.
461
00:23:44.839 --> 00:23:46.720
I'm like stretching my head. How am I going to
462
00:23:46.759 --> 00:23:48.960
find this girl? I need her DNA. I don't have
463
00:23:49.039 --> 00:23:53.440
any relatives DNA for this homicide victim. I'm just googling
464
00:23:53.480 --> 00:23:55.839
my victim's name one day, let's see if there's anything new.
465
00:23:56.160 --> 00:23:58.079
And up comes a link to find a grave And
466
00:23:58.119 --> 00:24:00.440
there's no obituary, but there is a list with a
467
00:24:00.440 --> 00:24:03.599
photo of her headstone. And I noticed there's one comment
468
00:24:03.839 --> 00:24:08.039
from her daughter, made ten years prior. But I noticed
469
00:24:08.039 --> 00:24:10.359
the daughter actually made to find a grave account. I
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00:24:10.519 --> 00:24:13.519
made an account and find a grave, messaged the daughter
471
00:24:13.640 --> 00:24:16.519
to find a grave, and that's how we connected. What
472
00:24:16.680 --> 00:24:17.359
is wrong with that?
473
00:24:17.680 --> 00:24:18.480
Who? What? Nothing?
474
00:24:18.960 --> 00:24:20.599
Once? The problem?
475
00:24:20.799 --> 00:24:23.000
This daughter, who would have been one at the time
476
00:24:23.200 --> 00:24:26.720
of her mother's death, would now be a grown woman.
477
00:24:27.359 --> 00:24:30.799
Yes she is and has every right to hear from you.
478
00:24:31.119 --> 00:24:33.920
Was she aware of the fact that you were looking
479
00:24:34.000 --> 00:24:34.480
for her?
480
00:24:35.160 --> 00:24:38.400
No, the like all the other information I had found
481
00:24:38.440 --> 00:24:41.079
on her, was not valid. I had found her ex
482
00:24:41.200 --> 00:24:43.359
mother in law and spoke to the ex mother in law,
483
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but she'd been divorced for a while, so the X
484
00:24:45.440 --> 00:24:46.920
mother in law didn't know where she was living.
485
00:24:47.039 --> 00:24:49.039
It weren't in touch anymore, that kind of thing.
486
00:24:49.559 --> 00:24:53.119
Didn't have any more contact information for her. And when
487
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I finally got a hold of her, she goes, this
488
00:24:55.359 --> 00:24:58.079
is the first phone call I've ever gotten about my mom.
489
00:24:58.720 --> 00:25:01.359
It was so critical, it was so important, and she
490
00:25:01.480 --> 00:25:04.720
was so thankful. So, like you said, how dare you
491
00:25:04.920 --> 00:25:07.960
prevent me from trying to find somebody through an open
492
00:25:07.960 --> 00:25:08.920
source database.
493
00:25:10.279 --> 00:25:13.480
You're listening to mindover Murder. We'll be right back after
494
00:25:13.559 --> 00:25:21.440
this word from our sponsors. We're back here at mindover Murder.
495
00:25:22.960 --> 00:25:25.640
And then they're also saying we can't use newspapers dot
496
00:25:25.640 --> 00:25:27.440
com anymore. So you're telling me you can't go look
497
00:25:27.519 --> 00:25:28.880
up my person's obituary.
498
00:25:29.440 --> 00:25:33.279
This is crazy. I use newspapers dot com probably at
499
00:25:33.319 --> 00:25:38.039
least once a week. They Ancestry also own newspapers dot com.
500
00:25:38.440 --> 00:25:38.680
I guess.
501
00:25:39.079 --> 00:25:43.799
So I find myself looking up things regarding our family history,
502
00:25:43.960 --> 00:25:47.039
and it's incredibly helpful to be able to look up
503
00:25:47.079 --> 00:25:50.640
an article. I'm very disturbed by something which is that
504
00:25:50.880 --> 00:25:54.960
many of the sources of information in the ancestry kind
505
00:25:55.000 --> 00:25:58.640
of array of tools that are used by genealogists, our
506
00:25:58.680 --> 00:26:03.640
public information to start with, like local and state records
507
00:26:03.640 --> 00:26:08.279
of births, deaths, marriages. Yeah, and I'm willing to pay
508
00:26:08.319 --> 00:26:10.799
for my subscription. I don't have a problem with it.
509
00:26:10.880 --> 00:26:14.240
I recognize the providing a valuable service. But for them
510
00:26:14.279 --> 00:26:18.160
to say that you can then not look for this. Now,
511
00:26:18.359 --> 00:26:21.920
woman the daughter and it sounds like very happy to
512
00:26:21.960 --> 00:26:25.880
hear from you with information about her late mother. How
513
00:26:25.920 --> 00:26:29.400
can they say, oh, we're not going to allow you
514
00:26:29.799 --> 00:26:33.359
to use this information, and if you pay for it,
515
00:26:33.480 --> 00:26:38.519
you're not doing anything that's untoward or illegal done at all.
516
00:26:38.680 --> 00:26:41.680
We're just helping the groups and their families. And I
517
00:26:41.680 --> 00:26:43.640
would love, I would actually love to talk to somebody
518
00:26:43.640 --> 00:26:47.480
in Ancestry who did all this, because they actually contradict themselves.
519
00:26:47.680 --> 00:26:50.559
Is also in the terms of service, it says, quote
520
00:26:50.599 --> 00:26:54.079
Ancestry does not claim any ownership rights to your content,
521
00:26:54.480 --> 00:26:57.960
control how you choose to share your content within the services,
522
00:26:58.079 --> 00:27:01.039
or limit how you share it outside of Ancestry. I'm like,
523
00:27:01.200 --> 00:27:03.319
wait a minute, so which is it?
524
00:27:03.359 --> 00:27:05.720
So which is it? Are you going to try to
525
00:27:05.759 --> 00:27:10.039
prevent me from using this information to move an investigation
526
00:27:10.279 --> 00:27:11.200
forward or not.
527
00:27:12.039 --> 00:27:14.279
So they have someome they really need to make some
528
00:27:14.400 --> 00:27:16.200
check sits to their wording if you asked me, but
529
00:27:16.240 --> 00:27:18.000
if you want to get minitty gritty, I was just
530
00:27:18.039 --> 00:27:19.960
reading it a line for line. I'm like, wait, this
531
00:27:20.200 --> 00:27:21.240
contradicts what they.
532
00:27:21.279 --> 00:27:24.759
What it says two paragraphs before this whole thing. It
533
00:27:25.039 --> 00:27:28.119
just I'm disgusted, And like I said, I have no
534
00:27:28.160 --> 00:27:30.799
problem whatsoever paying for the service. I pay for the
535
00:27:30.839 --> 00:27:33.599
service of a year. I use the service. As I
536
00:27:33.680 --> 00:27:36.200
was mentioning to you, I think I probably looked something
537
00:27:36.279 --> 00:27:39.279
up no less than once a week. We have friends
538
00:27:39.319 --> 00:27:42.720
of ours that are helping us research the Colonial Parkway murders,
539
00:27:42.759 --> 00:27:45.359
which is a case. Now we're finally, after all these years,
540
00:27:45.400 --> 00:27:48.519
starting to see some significant movement forward thanks to the
541
00:27:48.640 --> 00:27:52.240
Virginia State Police and SAKE grants at a Sexual Assault
542
00:27:52.279 --> 00:27:55.240
Kit initiative grants that they've been applying for. And now
543
00:27:55.240 --> 00:28:00.240
they've linked this suspector's deceased Alan Wade Wilmer Sr. To
544
00:28:00.400 --> 00:28:03.680
four murders, one pair of which are part of the
545
00:28:03.680 --> 00:28:07.960
Colonial Parkway murders directly, and one Loriente. Powell has a
546
00:28:08.039 --> 00:28:12.640
newly identified victim of Wilmers. She had been considered what
547
00:28:12.720 --> 00:28:17.079
Kristin Dilley often calls Colonial Parkway Murders adjacent. It was
548
00:28:17.119 --> 00:28:19.680
a murder that took place right around the same time
549
00:28:19.720 --> 00:28:22.319
and in the same geographic area of Virginia, and we
550
00:28:22.400 --> 00:28:25.720
had always thought that Lorient Powell might be related to
551
00:28:25.759 --> 00:28:29.000
the Colonial Parkway murders. Again, thanks to the Virginia State Police,
552
00:28:29.160 --> 00:28:34.319
DNA Labs International and their team, Yes, the Department of
553
00:28:34.359 --> 00:28:37.400
Forensic Sciences for the Commonwealth of Virginia, and a whole
554
00:28:37.400 --> 00:28:39.839
bunch of people I'm probably forgetting they all worked together.
555
00:28:40.160 --> 00:28:44.119
Blied Versaki Grant sent the evidence down to DNA Labs
556
00:28:44.160 --> 00:28:47.880
International and lo and behold we got another hit. Amazing,
557
00:28:47.960 --> 00:28:52.519
but it's so exciting when you see this moving forward. Now.
558
00:28:52.559 --> 00:28:56.359
Did they use ancestry in any of their searches? I
559
00:28:56.400 --> 00:28:58.160
don't know. I've never even asked them.
560
00:28:58.519 --> 00:28:59.839
Who cares right?
561
00:29:00.079 --> 00:29:01.480
Who cares well?
562
00:29:02.160 --> 00:29:04.839
You solved a murder? Who doesn't want that?
563
00:29:05.200 --> 00:29:10.519
Yeah, her family's been waiting for answers for over thirty years.
564
00:29:10.960 --> 00:29:13.039
I was randing with George about this the other day
565
00:29:13.079 --> 00:29:15.400
and I'm like, who know what he goes? There's one
566
00:29:15.440 --> 00:29:18.039
group Jen and I'm like, who, And he's the criminals themselves.
567
00:29:18.039 --> 00:29:20.839
I was gonna say, is Joy's talking about the bad guy?
568
00:29:21.640 --> 00:29:23.359
Who else would not want this?
569
00:29:23.759 --> 00:29:26.160
Yeah, and so Ancestry, let's just help the rapists and
570
00:29:26.240 --> 00:29:27.680
murderers stay out there longer.
571
00:29:27.839 --> 00:29:30.960
Yeah exactly. They'll be your biggest fans. But the rest
572
00:29:31.000 --> 00:29:33.640
of us are standing here scratching our heads.
573
00:29:33.880 --> 00:29:38.240
Yeah, it's point not Also, it's taxpayer dollars that paid
574
00:29:38.240 --> 00:29:42.240
to digitize all those public records. Yeah, in story didn't
575
00:29:42.279 --> 00:29:46.920
pay for that. This is unbelievable to me. I'd love
576
00:29:47.079 --> 00:29:50.599
to get somebody from Ancestry on the podcast to explain
577
00:29:50.880 --> 00:29:54.559
just how this benefits anyone. The one thing it did
578
00:29:54.559 --> 00:29:58.880
occur to me reading articles preparing for today's conversation, this
579
00:29:59.000 --> 00:30:02.559
feels like they're trying to protect their terf because they
580
00:30:02.680 --> 00:30:06.039
have and are probably, without questioning, the market leader in
581
00:30:06.119 --> 00:30:08.640
terms of genealogy. I know there are lots of other
582
00:30:08.720 --> 00:30:11.720
sites that provide similar services, but I've found it in
583
00:30:11.759 --> 00:30:16.599
my limited experience that ancestries array of tools are very helpful,
584
00:30:16.759 --> 00:30:18.640
which is why I use.
585
00:30:18.519 --> 00:30:21.240
It and am happy to pay for it. This almost
586
00:30:21.240 --> 00:30:24.400
feels like a defensive move, like they're trying to prevent
587
00:30:24.599 --> 00:30:28.680
other companies or competitors from getting any kind of leg up.
588
00:30:28.920 --> 00:30:33.480
The whole thing just feels so counter productive. Where would
589
00:30:33.480 --> 00:30:36.920
it leave investigators like yourself in terms of the work
590
00:30:36.920 --> 00:30:39.920
that you do both for your volunteer not for profit
591
00:30:40.240 --> 00:30:43.119
organization and for the work you do during the day.
592
00:30:43.720 --> 00:30:47.000
Technically there are rules apply to both roles, because in
593
00:30:47.079 --> 00:30:51.240
both roles, I'm working on unsolved cases, whether it's directly
594
00:30:51.440 --> 00:30:55.039
short my law enforcement or indirectly through the nonprofit, but
595
00:30:55.160 --> 00:31:00.000
ultimately for law enforcement use. I'm stuck. I'm literally payicking
596
00:31:00.079 --> 00:31:03.119
because my subscription's gotta run out soon and I'm not
597
00:31:03.200 --> 00:31:06.319
going to have anything, and I will find a replacement,
598
00:31:06.400 --> 00:31:09.039
But what I've found is there's nothing comparable right now
599
00:31:09.079 --> 00:31:12.160
on the market. My understanding is there's a couple of places,
600
00:31:12.200 --> 00:31:14.960
a couple companies that have something that they're working on
601
00:31:15.319 --> 00:31:17.960
that will be allowed to be used by law enforcement.
602
00:31:18.599 --> 00:31:20.920
Is not going to be next month, six months, a year.
603
00:31:21.160 --> 00:31:23.519
Like I got cases that work on. I have massive
604
00:31:23.519 --> 00:31:26.480
family trees I've built in ancestry and now what Yeah,
605
00:31:26.519 --> 00:31:29.319
I can download the jed com file. There are other
606
00:31:29.440 --> 00:31:32.599
programs where you can upload a jed com file. Right,
607
00:31:32.759 --> 00:31:35.559
don't look anything like your tree did on ancestry, and
608
00:31:35.599 --> 00:31:39.039
it's not nearly as usual friendly. It's also not connected
609
00:31:39.039 --> 00:31:43.039
to all those historical records, so there's major limitations, and
610
00:31:43.079 --> 00:31:46.160
it's gonna stall cases. There's absolutely no doubt if we
611
00:31:46.200 --> 00:31:49.200
abide by their terms of service, which my ethical guidelines
612
00:31:49.240 --> 00:31:53.400
say I have to, it's going to stall progress in cases,
613
00:31:53.799 --> 00:31:58.359
especially unidentified human remains cases. Who doesn't want their missing
614
00:31:58.599 --> 00:32:01.839
launched one identified? Oh, there's nobody who wouldn't want Maybe
615
00:32:01.839 --> 00:32:04.480
even a criminal would want that if they're missing their brothers.
616
00:32:04.519 --> 00:32:06.039
Has nothing to do with a crime being.
617
00:32:07.279 --> 00:32:10.000
I also think the people in those communities when you
618
00:32:10.039 --> 00:32:13.759
hear about someone when they say remains were discovered somewhere.
619
00:32:13.759 --> 00:32:17.279
A lot of times it's in isolated locations, or it's
620
00:32:17.359 --> 00:32:20.599
on a farm or in a barn or places like
621
00:32:20.720 --> 00:32:23.440
that where there really had a complete loss as to
622
00:32:23.519 --> 00:32:27.119
who this person might be. The members of the community
623
00:32:27.240 --> 00:32:29.599
often pull together and they say, we really want to
624
00:32:29.640 --> 00:32:32.720
find out who this person is. There's the humanity of
625
00:32:32.759 --> 00:32:35.559
it all. How tragic it is for someone to die
626
00:32:35.920 --> 00:32:40.359
apparently alone, to not even be known by their families.
627
00:32:40.880 --> 00:32:43.880
People always have these legends, Oh, my uncle moved to
628
00:32:43.920 --> 00:32:47.880
California and we never heard from him again. Maybe that happened,
629
00:32:47.960 --> 00:32:51.599
But what if it didn't. What if exactly your uncle
630
00:32:51.799 --> 00:32:55.559
is the person that was found in this isolated location
631
00:32:55.920 --> 00:32:58.839
with no clue as to who he is.
632
00:32:59.720 --> 00:33:04.160
I may give a real case scenario there just hopen Nework.
633
00:33:04.920 --> 00:33:07.720
So in nineteen eighty six, here in Colora Springs, the
634
00:33:07.799 --> 00:33:10.720
skeletal remains of a man were found in a field.
635
00:33:11.000 --> 00:33:13.720
I say, there's no walidarid or anything. You give any
636
00:33:13.720 --> 00:33:16.200
indication who he is. He was shot in the head.
637
00:33:16.279 --> 00:33:20.079
It's a homicide. Forty years twenty twenty six, forty years.
638
00:33:20.680 --> 00:33:23.519
Just last week we met with Ramdville College and if
639
00:33:23.680 --> 00:33:26.799
law enforcement out there is listening and you have unidentified remains,
640
00:33:26.920 --> 00:33:30.240
we use contact Ramobow because they had this amazing program
641
00:33:30.519 --> 00:33:34.799
where they will hey for the development of the SNIP profile,
642
00:33:34.839 --> 00:33:37.000
which is a type of DNA profile you need to
643
00:33:37.039 --> 00:33:40.440
do genealogy, and they're students who are genealogists in training,
644
00:33:40.720 --> 00:33:44.000
put together the family tree based on those connections and
645
00:33:44.039 --> 00:33:47.039
figure out who your person probably is. Just had a
646
00:33:47.079 --> 00:33:49.680
meeting Thursday. They put it We're on a zoom just
647
00:33:49.680 --> 00:33:51.200
like you and I are right now. They put up
648
00:33:51.200 --> 00:33:54.119
a PowerPoint its side too. It says, here's your league
649
00:33:54.160 --> 00:33:56.720
candidate with a name and a lack of wow because
650
00:33:56.960 --> 00:33:59.519
love it so one hundred percent confirmed.
651
00:33:59.160 --> 00:34:01.880
Not confirmed yet but not even part of the less.
652
00:34:01.880 --> 00:34:07.400
Right so emotionally and positively overwhelming. Forty years and we've
653
00:34:07.440 --> 00:34:10.039
been trying to figure out who this guy is. Yeah,
654
00:34:10.159 --> 00:34:12.800
this poor man MO homicide investigation. If you don't know
655
00:34:12.800 --> 00:34:14.079
who the victim is, because.
656
00:34:13.840 --> 00:34:17.280
It's right, Yeah, you can't ever tell who killed someone
657
00:34:17.320 --> 00:34:19.480
if you don't even know who the poor victim is
658
00:34:19.840 --> 00:34:22.360
to start with. You have a name, Now I.
659
00:34:22.440 --> 00:34:25.199
Have a name, and everything so far in our research
660
00:34:25.599 --> 00:34:29.119
is falling into place, thankfully. He has a brother and
661
00:34:29.159 --> 00:34:32.320
Hassan who were alive. Huh I did both of them?
662
00:34:32.800 --> 00:34:35.760
Did they know what ever happened to them? To their
663
00:34:36.280 --> 00:34:37.800
no idea brother.
664
00:34:37.679 --> 00:34:40.559
And he was an infant when his dad went missing.
665
00:34:40.599 --> 00:34:42.760
It was killed. He had no memory of his dad,
666
00:34:43.000 --> 00:34:45.719
and he'd heard stories through the years like maybe he
667
00:34:45.760 --> 00:34:47.840
was in witness protection and stuff like that.
668
00:34:48.039 --> 00:34:51.519
Yeah. Boy, some of these start to sound like urban legends.
669
00:34:51.559 --> 00:34:55.320
After a while, Draling was a little more reliable, but
670
00:34:55.400 --> 00:34:57.159
not much. He's like, I think the last tie my
671
00:34:57.239 --> 00:34:59.519
son was in the late seventies, and I remember he's
672
00:34:59.559 --> 00:35:02.039
out my mom and then he took off, and but
673
00:35:02.159 --> 00:35:04.079
he moved around a lot. He was in and out
674
00:35:04.119 --> 00:35:07.119
of jail, and we just lost track of it. And
675
00:35:07.239 --> 00:35:11.000
so without genealogy, we never ever would have figured out
676
00:35:11.039 --> 00:35:13.320
who this is because he was never reported as missing.
677
00:35:13.760 --> 00:35:16.440
None of his relatives are felons, so they're not in codis,
678
00:35:16.440 --> 00:35:18.760
so there's no DNA hit and there was nothing else
679
00:35:18.800 --> 00:35:22.079
to go on. So without genealogy, he would still be unnamed.
680
00:35:22.480 --> 00:35:25.000
This will be the first case at my Sheriff's office
681
00:35:25.039 --> 00:35:27.559
that I can't co exult because it's still.
682
00:35:27.440 --> 00:35:30.519
An open homes Did you've identified the victim?
683
00:35:30.559 --> 00:35:32.920
You've identified, We've solved part of it, and be the
684
00:35:32.960 --> 00:35:35.760
first one where we used genealogy to do again. I
685
00:35:35.840 --> 00:35:38.199
keep saying, who wouldn't want that for their family member?
686
00:35:38.360 --> 00:35:42.159
His brother was just overwhelmed naturally emotions, But who wouldn't
687
00:35:42.159 --> 00:35:45.440
want their loved one found and identified? And so now
688
00:35:45.599 --> 00:35:47.920
we can give him his name back, Now we can
689
00:35:47.920 --> 00:35:49.960
give his remains to his family, so he can have
690
00:35:50.000 --> 00:35:53.119
a proper burial. Those things are so important.
691
00:35:53.039 --> 00:35:55.760
They are, and this is the kind of thing where
692
00:35:55.800 --> 00:35:59.360
you think to yourself, why would ancestry want to stand
693
00:35:59.400 --> 00:36:03.440
in the way of giving that family answers. They have
694
00:36:03.599 --> 00:36:08.760
every right to use the ancestry system to find their
695
00:36:09.159 --> 00:36:13.159
lost brother and father. I recognize that it would be
696
00:36:13.199 --> 00:36:15.599
a significant challenge. I'm not saying it can't be done,
697
00:36:15.840 --> 00:36:18.760
and your team might be able to actually solve the
698
00:36:18.800 --> 00:36:22.360
homicide part of this equation. But at least we've solved
699
00:36:22.400 --> 00:36:25.880
the missing person's side of the equation. And with all
700
00:36:25.960 --> 00:36:28.719
due respect, no, he didn't go into witness protection or
701
00:36:28.719 --> 00:36:31.719
anything like that. He was a homicide victim. They have
702
00:36:31.800 --> 00:36:33.880
to live with that sadness, but at least they know
703
00:36:34.000 --> 00:36:37.119
what happened to him, and as you said, if they
704
00:36:37.320 --> 00:36:40.639
choose to, they'll know where his remains are. They can
705
00:36:41.039 --> 00:36:44.199
if there's a family plot or whatever. I just think
706
00:36:44.360 --> 00:36:47.639
this is a human being. He deserved to be treated
707
00:36:47.679 --> 00:36:51.920
with respect. And it took forty years the science caught
708
00:36:52.000 --> 00:36:55.519
up here, and this is a great use of genealogy.
709
00:36:56.119 --> 00:36:58.239
Yeah, I don't know why they want to forbid that.
710
00:36:58.800 --> 00:37:00.440
What the ultimately they do is I have more of
711
00:37:00.480 --> 00:37:02.880
law enforcement off their site. Of course, so they're gonna
712
00:37:02.920 --> 00:37:04.880
lose a bunch of money. I'm sure one of these
713
00:37:04.920 --> 00:37:08.000
other companies is going to develop something very similar and
714
00:37:08.039 --> 00:37:09.719
then all the business will go there.
715
00:37:10.000 --> 00:37:12.400
Yeah, so it doesn't have to be that way.
716
00:37:12.519 --> 00:37:15.199
So I got a lot of people say just keep
717
00:37:15.320 --> 00:37:18.400
using it and they're never gonna know. But there's problems
718
00:37:18.400 --> 00:37:21.199
with that when you're law enforcement, because you have ethical guidelines, right,
719
00:37:21.679 --> 00:37:26.360
and you've built of follow those morally. Personally, I want
720
00:37:26.360 --> 00:37:28.280
to say, yeah, I'm just gonna keep using it, but
721
00:37:28.559 --> 00:37:31.679
I can't and my agency won't let me. So I
722
00:37:31.840 --> 00:37:35.079
have to find an alternate, and we will. It's just
723
00:37:35.119 --> 00:37:36.920
gonna be a challenge, and I know I'm not the
724
00:37:36.960 --> 00:37:38.719
only one in this country going through it. I'm sure
725
00:37:38.719 --> 00:37:41.519
there's tons of others panicking and trying to figure out
726
00:37:41.639 --> 00:37:42.159
what to do.
727
00:37:42.199 --> 00:37:46.679
Also, in the example you just used from Colorado Springs,
728
00:37:47.039 --> 00:37:50.920
will there be an announcement that his remains have been found?
729
00:37:51.559 --> 00:37:52.480
What's the next step?
730
00:37:53.119 --> 00:37:56.320
So we got the brother and son's cheek swaps, and
731
00:37:56.360 --> 00:37:58.599
then those will go to the lab and they'll do
732
00:37:58.639 --> 00:38:01.559
a one to one comparison between the DNA profile from
733
00:38:01.559 --> 00:38:04.960
the skeleton to those two relatives, and then they'll pretty
734
00:38:04.960 --> 00:38:07.800
confidently be able to say, yeah, this is the guy,
735
00:38:08.159 --> 00:38:11.039
especially since we have his son. That's really good and
736
00:38:11.079 --> 00:38:13.199
then we'll then me and my partner will write on
737
00:38:13.280 --> 00:38:15.800
the press release and there will be an announcement. But
738
00:38:15.840 --> 00:38:18.000
we don't want to be premature because there is still
739
00:38:18.039 --> 00:38:20.400
a chance that it's not him, we think, so we
740
00:38:20.480 --> 00:38:23.159
have to be sure DNA wise. But yes, but it'll
741
00:38:23.159 --> 00:38:25.360
probably be a couple of months because lab work takes
742
00:38:25.400 --> 00:38:29.719
a while. Super exciting, it's just you can't describe the feeling.
743
00:38:29.840 --> 00:38:32.039
You can identify, I think with what I'm feeling in
744
00:38:32.039 --> 00:38:35.559
a way like when they start getting the DANI results
745
00:38:35.800 --> 00:38:39.000
around the murders that are possibly connected to your sister,
746
00:38:39.360 --> 00:38:43.079
I'm sure you get that same elation, Okay, And.
747
00:38:43.000 --> 00:38:46.960
We're thrilled for the other family where eight visions and
748
00:38:47.599 --> 00:38:49.519
what they call the core of what they call the
749
00:38:49.519 --> 00:38:53.800
Colonial Parkway murders, four couples. We've always said for years,
750
00:38:54.280 --> 00:38:59.079
decades even that we would be happy with any movement whatsoever,
751
00:38:59.320 --> 00:39:01.519
and so for us to find out and we all
752
00:39:01.559 --> 00:39:04.719
know each other that the killer of Robin Edwards and
753
00:39:04.840 --> 00:39:06.719
David Nobling, who were one of the couples in the
754
00:39:06.719 --> 00:39:10.199
Colonial Parkway murders, I know those people. I have spent
755
00:39:10.400 --> 00:39:13.400
a lot of time with the Edwards and Nobling families,
756
00:39:14.159 --> 00:39:18.000
I'm beyond thrilled that they finally have answers. I'm not
757
00:39:18.039 --> 00:39:21.079
saying it makes their lives perfect from here on out.
758
00:39:21.320 --> 00:39:25.280
We all have the usual struggles in real life. It
759
00:39:25.440 --> 00:39:29.599
makes me happy that they have answers. Our suspect Wilmer
760
00:39:29.920 --> 00:39:32.960
is dead. But we're grown ups here. We know that
761
00:39:33.079 --> 00:39:36.119
it's been thirty nine years since the start of this case.
762
00:39:36.559 --> 00:39:38.880
We knew there was a real good chance that with
763
00:39:39.000 --> 00:39:42.000
so many years going by, there's a very good chance
764
00:39:42.199 --> 00:39:46.400
that the offender would be deceased by the time we
765
00:39:46.400 --> 00:39:48.880
were able to identify him, and that would probably be
766
00:39:49.559 --> 00:39:52.840
a good chance, good chance in the case you're describing too,
767
00:39:52.880 --> 00:39:57.039
it's been forty years. Answers are very meaningful, and I've
768
00:39:57.079 --> 00:40:01.079
been trying to convey this to particularly the FBI, who
769
00:40:01.159 --> 00:40:04.480
are handling my sister and Rebekadowski's case. Two of the
770
00:40:04.599 --> 00:40:07.280
double homicides in our case are FBI cases because they
771
00:40:07.280 --> 00:40:10.199
happen inside in National Park, and then two of them
772
00:40:10.400 --> 00:40:13.159
are handled by the Virginia State Police because they happen
773
00:40:13.320 --> 00:40:17.360
outside the National Park. But I've been trying to explain
774
00:40:17.639 --> 00:40:21.719
to the investigators over the years, answers are very meaningful.
775
00:40:22.280 --> 00:40:26.000
If we have three hundred thousand cold case homicides here
776
00:40:26.039 --> 00:40:28.000
in the United States. First of all, I believe that
777
00:40:28.039 --> 00:40:29.440
should be a national scandal.
778
00:40:30.360 --> 00:40:33.000
It is in crisis and many other words.
779
00:40:33.119 --> 00:40:35.880
Yeah. At the same time, if you think about it,
780
00:40:36.159 --> 00:40:39.239
let's just say each one of those three hundred thousand
781
00:40:39.320 --> 00:40:42.039
people has a mom and dad and a couple siblings.
782
00:40:42.559 --> 00:40:45.639
At a minimum, they're probably related to four people. I'm
783
00:40:45.679 --> 00:40:47.840
just making this up. That means that right here in
784
00:40:47.880 --> 00:40:52.199
America tonight, there are over a million people struggling to
785
00:40:52.239 --> 00:40:55.000
get to sleep every single night for the rest of
786
00:40:55.079 --> 00:41:00.199
their lives, wondering what happened to their loved one. I
787
00:41:00.239 --> 00:41:04.599
think answers it's not always about punishment. Yes, of course,
788
00:41:04.679 --> 00:41:07.320
if they identify an offender, and we do have some
789
00:41:07.440 --> 00:41:11.000
living potential offenders in our case, would I like to
790
00:41:11.039 --> 00:41:13.920
see them in jail for the rest of their lives. Absolutely,
791
00:41:14.519 --> 00:41:19.880
Even answers are very meaningful and important. Like you say,
792
00:41:19.960 --> 00:41:22.519
for this young woman who was one year old when
793
00:41:22.559 --> 00:41:25.800
her mom died, it was very meaningful for her to
794
00:41:26.039 --> 00:41:29.000
be provided with this information, just like the brother and
795
00:41:29.119 --> 00:41:32.000
the son of this man that was a homicide victim.
796
00:41:32.079 --> 00:41:35.239
Because even as you describe the situation, I thought to myself. Man,
797
00:41:35.320 --> 00:41:37.400
that's going to be a long shot to solve that
798
00:41:37.519 --> 00:41:40.880
homicide forty years later. It isn't like you got a
799
00:41:40.960 --> 00:41:45.360
running start way back in eighty six. At the same time,
800
00:41:45.719 --> 00:41:49.159
to know what happened to him, what happened to her,
801
00:41:49.559 --> 00:41:56.159
that's incredibly important. Absolutely, I'm shocked that ancestry feels that
802
00:41:56.440 --> 00:42:00.719
throwing up roadblocks in the path of hardworking and investigators
803
00:42:00.840 --> 00:42:06.119
and forensic genealogists, law enforcement and other well meaning people
804
00:42:06.400 --> 00:42:08.079
around the country. I think it's shocking.
805
00:42:08.800 --> 00:42:12.280
Yeah, and why could we at least get an explanation.
806
00:42:11.960 --> 00:42:14.639
Because yeah, I still I haven't I haven't heard one.
807
00:42:15.159 --> 00:42:18.000
Very unclear as to what happened that led them to
808
00:42:18.039 --> 00:42:20.920
make this decision. But obviously the higher up's ancestry don't
809
00:42:20.960 --> 00:42:23.559
have any missing persons or homeside victims in their families,
810
00:42:23.599 --> 00:42:26.960
because yeah, can ie making this decision that they did.
811
00:42:27.159 --> 00:42:29.239
Welcome to my world. I'd be happy to sit down
812
00:42:29.280 --> 00:42:30.320
with them, and I'll be polite.
813
00:42:30.440 --> 00:42:32.480
That's same year.
814
00:42:33.000 --> 00:42:35.440
I can't thank you enough for coming on Mind over
815
00:42:35.559 --> 00:42:39.320
Murder and explaining a little bit about what's happened, perhaps
816
00:42:39.360 --> 00:42:42.039
just as importantly, how this is going to impact cold
817
00:42:42.119 --> 00:42:45.280
case investigations in Colorado and across the country.
818
00:42:45.599 --> 00:42:48.199
Everywhere it's going to stow. Some will into a cross
819
00:42:48.199 --> 00:42:50.760
for a while, So I hope. I guess they can
820
00:42:50.800 --> 00:42:53.119
sleep fine with that at night. But I can't. And
821
00:42:53.280 --> 00:42:55.639
I will say, if you don't mind me addressing the
822
00:42:55.639 --> 00:42:59.719
privacy concerns that often come up. Sure, I'm still in
823
00:42:59.800 --> 00:43:03.239
your from so many people. I'm not letting law enforcement
824
00:43:03.239 --> 00:43:05.639
out of access to my DNA. Listen to me, Your
825
00:43:05.760 --> 00:43:09.599
DNA is not actually in any of these databases. Yes,
826
00:43:09.760 --> 00:43:12.280
new spit in a tube and they developed a profile,
827
00:43:12.360 --> 00:43:15.239
but that is not welling into the database. They turned
828
00:43:15.239 --> 00:43:17.440
it into a code, which if he wrote it out
829
00:43:17.480 --> 00:43:18.920
on a piece of paper and found all the street
830
00:43:18.920 --> 00:43:22.639
would mean absolutely nothing. It's a code inversion that goes
831
00:43:22.679 --> 00:43:25.519
in the database and your actual DNA is destroyed. So
832
00:43:25.760 --> 00:43:29.159
I can't go in ancestry and take your DNA and
833
00:43:29.239 --> 00:43:31.519
plant it out a crime scene, or give it to
834
00:43:31.599 --> 00:43:35.480
a health insurance company, or any of that. Moment that
835
00:43:35.559 --> 00:43:39.880
I'm still hearing, it's not true. Even in ancestry, you
836
00:43:39.880 --> 00:43:43.199
can make your family tree one hundred percent completely private
837
00:43:43.280 --> 00:43:45.559
so nobody can see it. I know this because this
838
00:43:45.639 --> 00:43:47.960
is how I this is the settings I use for
839
00:43:48.039 --> 00:43:51.280
my victims family trees. If you have privacy concerns, just
840
00:43:51.320 --> 00:43:53.199
make your tree completely private. And if you want to
841
00:43:53.239 --> 00:43:55.039
know how to shoot me email, I'll tell you how.
842
00:43:55.519 --> 00:43:56.960
Not part it's two settings.
843
00:43:57.440 --> 00:44:00.159
But jen that they're going to clone me. You know
844
00:44:00.159 --> 00:44:00.960
they're going to clone me?
845
00:44:01.159 --> 00:44:04.400
No, so I only join and address up privacy concerned
846
00:44:04.639 --> 00:44:07.119
like even have a couple family members on not why
847
00:44:07.159 --> 00:44:08.519
law enforcement see why DNA?
848
00:44:08.920 --> 00:44:09.840
You don't have to.
849
00:44:10.320 --> 00:44:11.880
Yeah, I'm not seeing your DNA.
850
00:44:12.039 --> 00:44:14.079
If you want to say no, just say no.
851
00:44:14.519 --> 00:44:16.760
Yeah. So I don't know why Ancestry couldn't just do
852
00:44:16.800 --> 00:44:17.480
an opt in.
853
00:44:17.480 --> 00:44:21.280
Opt out type saying Heaven forbid is due?
854
00:44:21.599 --> 00:44:23.639
Yeah, or people just learn how to make their treat
855
00:44:23.719 --> 00:44:26.239
private if you don't want law enforcement to see you treat.
856
00:44:26.320 --> 00:44:29.599
But it's as simple as checking and unchecking boxes. And
857
00:44:29.639 --> 00:44:32.519
if you feel strongly about it, I understand, then just
858
00:44:32.719 --> 00:44:35.440
check the box or unchecked the box that says this
859
00:44:35.480 --> 00:44:37.840
can be used by law enforcement. And I want to
860
00:44:37.880 --> 00:44:41.480
be clear heer. This is not currently an applicable use
861
00:44:41.840 --> 00:44:46.320
on the Ancestry database. It's only jedmatch and family Tree
862
00:44:46.440 --> 00:44:50.199
DNA and the off RAM database that allow this kind
863
00:44:50.199 --> 00:44:53.960
of use by law enforcement. I don't get the paranoia.
864
00:44:54.079 --> 00:44:58.199
I understand there are people that distrust law enforcement. Look,
865
00:44:58.239 --> 00:45:00.639
I've had my issues with law enforcement over the issue.
866
00:45:01.360 --> 00:45:04.480
Any final thoughts before we wrap, How.
867
00:45:04.280 --> 00:45:06.960
Is this going to play out in sport someday? And
868
00:45:07.480 --> 00:45:11.199
I can already hear my ideas office saying, oh, you
869
00:45:11.280 --> 00:45:13.599
went against the term of service of a company, but
870
00:45:13.760 --> 00:45:16.280
means we can't use anything that you collected, like fruit
871
00:45:16.280 --> 00:45:18.800
to the poisonous tree. But the thing is a term
872
00:45:18.840 --> 00:45:22.079
of service is not a law. So Ancestrys hasn't created
873
00:45:22.119 --> 00:45:24.519
a law. I don't know what does light lead to,
874
00:45:24.599 --> 00:45:26.760
and I don't even want to speculate, but I will
875
00:45:26.800 --> 00:45:29.280
just say there's no court precedence yet that I know
876
00:45:29.400 --> 00:45:32.239
about where an agency did go against the terms of
877
00:45:32.239 --> 00:45:35.159
service and then what happened the judge? What a judge
878
00:45:35.199 --> 00:45:38.239
showed out. I would hope not I identify somebody or whatever.
879
00:45:38.280 --> 00:45:40.119
But it will be interesting to see how this plays
880
00:45:40.119 --> 00:45:42.119
out in court in the future. But it could cause
881
00:45:42.480 --> 00:45:45.079
really a ton of problems in court cases too, depending
882
00:45:45.119 --> 00:45:45.840
on the judge.
883
00:45:46.199 --> 00:45:49.079
We'll be following this as we go along, and we'll
884
00:45:49.119 --> 00:45:52.239
definitely have you back for further conversations about what you're
885
00:45:52.239 --> 00:45:56.199
doing solving cold cases and helping families get answers.
886
00:45:56.639 --> 00:45:58.840
Well, I very much appreciate it. Thank you.
887
00:46:00.000 --> 00:46:02.119
We'll do it for this episode of mind Over Murder.
888
00:46:02.400 --> 00:46:03.480
We'll see you next time.
889
00:46:13.280 --> 00:46:16.800
Mind Over Murder is a production of Absolute Zero and
890
00:46:16.880 --> 00:46:18.320
Another Dog Productions.
891
00:46:18.880 --> 00:46:22.199
Our executive producers are Bill Thomas and Kristin Dilley.
892
00:46:22.559 --> 00:46:25.000
Our logo art is by Pamela Arnois.
893
00:46:25.639 --> 00:46:27.679
Our theme music is by Kevin McLoud.
894
00:46:28.239 --> 00:46:32.119
Mind Over Murder is distributed in partnership with crawl Space Media.
895
00:46:32.920 --> 00:46:36.079
You can follow us on Facebook, Twitter, or Instagram.
896
00:46:36.280 --> 00:46:38.840
You can also follow our page on the Colonial Parkway
897
00:46:38.920 --> 00:46:40.760
Murders on Facebook.
898
00:46:40.519 --> 00:46:43.559
And finally, you can follow Bill Thomas on Twitter at
899
00:46:43.599 --> 00:46:45.199
Bill Thomas five six.
900
00:46:45.679 --> 00:47:01.119
Thank you for listening to mind Over murdero