BONUS: Solving Flint River Killer's Daughter w Sheryl McCollum

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You're listening to the Mind Over Murder podcast.
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My name is Bill Thomas. I'm a writer, consulting producer,
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and now podcaster. I am now trying to use my
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experience as the brother of a murder victim to help
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other victims of violent crime. I'm working on a book
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on the unsolved Colonial Parkway murders, and I'm the co-administrator
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of the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook group, together with Kristen Dilley.
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My name is Kristen Dilley.
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I'm a writer, a researcher, a teacher, and a victim's advocate,
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as well as the social media manager and co-administrator for
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the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook page with my partner in crime.
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Bill Thomas. Welcome to Mind Over Murder. I'm Kristen Dilley.
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And I'm Bill Thomas.
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We are joined today by a very good friend of
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the podcast, Cheryl McCollum, here to talk to us about
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her brand new book, Swans Don't Swim in a Sewer.
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It is publication day today, Tuesday, May 12th. And Mac,
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we are so proud of you.
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Thank you so much. I'll tell you, the two of
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y'all have been so supportive over the years, whether it's
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one of the cases we're working or if I needed
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advice on something. But this book, both of you have
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encouraged me, have supported it, and I just appreciate it.
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The friendship, it's beyond working cases. The friendships are really
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what solidifies. This is why we're doing all of it.
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We're intensely proud of you, and we both know how
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difficult it is to write a book and are both
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working on our own respective books. How long were you
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working on this for?
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I started working on the case in 2017, but a
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book never entered my mind. And then as we got
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closer to the trial, Dixie Grace just kept in my
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ear about it. And I'm like, I'm not a writer.
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That's not what I do for a living. That's not
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what I do for fun. And she just kept saying,
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it's something you need to do. The more she said it,
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I thought I'll at least do an article for Crime Online.
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So I started to find some things and then the
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trial happened and I thought, okay, let's get this thing done.
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Let's put it on paper. So if for nothing else,
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my children would have it. This is how I work.
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This is the way I think that it's important to work.
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And that's utilizing every expert that you can find. And
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a lot of people, they don't subscribe to that. They
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like to work by themselves. They like to figure things
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out alone. But I just say, no matter what you
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are doing, even throwing a party, it's going to be
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better if you include other people to help you out.
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So that's why I went ahead and I said, okay,
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I'm going to write.
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Before we get too terribly much into the case that
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inspired the book, we may have listeners who are not
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familiar with all the many hats that you wear, including
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your friendship with Nancy Grace. So before we get into
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the case, give our listeners a refresh on all of
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the things that you do, the many things that you do,
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and tell us about what you're up to right now.
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I am a crime scene investigator for a living in
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Metro Atlanta. I run the Cold Case Investigative Research Institute,
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which is a nonprofit that takes all cold cases. I'm
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a part of two task forces, the Cold Case Task
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Force of the DA's office and the Sexual Assault Task
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Force with the DA's office. I also run the Wildlife
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CSI Academy, which trains law enforcement to combat wildlife crimes
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such as poaching. I'm married. That's an easy hat to wear.
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Got two children. That's a super easy hat to wear.
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And Nancy Grace is my friend. That's a difficult hat
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to wear. He can be demanding. I tell this all
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the time, but I will say it again for your
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listeners that have never met me. Nancy, if not for her,
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I would not have the career that I have, period.
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End of story. She could have any crime scene investigator
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on her show she wants. She could have any crime
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analysis person, whatever. But she's had me on her show
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over 20 years. And because of that, I've gotten to
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do some things that I would normally have never been
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able to do. And writing this book is just one
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of them. The ChromeCon and meeting all of y'all and
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advancing my footprint out there. And then other people asking
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me to do super cool things. I am nothing but
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grateful always. So I'm very lucky. And I actually teach that.
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at the Academy, that you can talk about training, you
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can talk about education, you can talk about being ready,
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but don't discount luck. Luck is a magical thing. And
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if you are well-trained and well-educated, when that luck happens,
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I guarantee you magic is fixing to happen.
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It is publication day for your book, Swans Don't Swim
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in a Sewer. Start by telling us about the title.
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The title is Speaking of Nancy Grace, she happened years ago.
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We had a rape victim that was also a hooker
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that was a drug addict. And the judge told us
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that she's not in court the next day. I'm going
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to dismiss victim not in court. So we had to
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find her. Nancy and I got this rookie to drive us.
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And we're going to every trap house and crack house
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and low rent place you can find. We're asking pips
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and drug dealers, have you seen her? Have you seen her?
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Because it was imperative that we not let this monster
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get out. And so the rookie, after a while, he
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was sick and tired of going to all these places.
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And he was like, why are we going to all
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these low-level places? I thought hanging out with Nancy Grace,
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it was going to be a different kind of assignment.
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She said, when you're dealing with this type of situation,
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where do you think we have to go? Who do
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you think we have to deal with? And she said,
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swans don't swim in a sewer. It stuck with me.
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And ever since then, I'm like, you're right. We don't
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get to pick who we work with. When somebody calls 911,
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we go. We help them with their socioeconomic situation or
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anything else.
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Or are you a sex worker? If you are, it
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doesn't mean you get or you shouldn't be served in
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the same way. 100%.
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And let me be clear. The reason I said hooker
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is because that's what she was. My world, Bill, if
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you've got a street-walking hooker versus a call girl... That's
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a different perpetrator. So I try to be real clear.
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Sex worker doesn't tell me what I need to know.
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So this will be able to know I'm not being
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insensitive to the new way of categorizing somebody. But that's
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what she was. She knew what she was. And because
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that's what she did for a living is the reason
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she was targeted. So that's another thing. We need to
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talk honestly with each other. So that we can keep
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people safe. So if you, again, if you say sex worker,
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does that mean she's making movies in Hollywood?
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Right. It's very, it's vague.
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It should not be vague. It cannot be vague to me.
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So I just want people to know I wasn't being insensitive.
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I was being clear. And we unfortunately, I'll tell you
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on the end, we did find her.
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But the title of the book came from Nancy because
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that was something I used throughout my career. I'm one
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of those people, I believe in going to the source.
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So I have used Mafia Hitman. I've used Alcatraz inmates.
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I've used ex-Imperial Wizards of the Klan. Anybody that I
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think can give me information that is accurate and true,
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I'm going to go to the source. This case was
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no different. I went to a serial killer to get
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some of the information that I needed. And again, I
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got some pushback. But who else are you going to
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go to? You want to find out about why somebody
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would kill somebody, ask a killer. If you want to
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find out about the victim, ask her father. In this case,
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it just happened to be the same person.
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So you go ahead and start by walking us through
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this case in particular, because I think that there are
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going to be people who've listened to Zone 7, your podcast,
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because we completely left off that podcast.
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That hat that you wear.
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You are a podcaster of the award winning Zone 7,
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which if I'm not mistaken, that was nominated for a
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Clue Award last year, too, was it not?
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It was. I lost to somebody named Derek Levasseur, who
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I've never heard of. I'd seen the name, but no,
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I didn't know him. We definitely were like, tag on it.
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Mac should have won for 100%.
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So I'll tell you the truth. Derek should have won.
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What they've got in their podcast is stellar. It is flawless.
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And it's one of those deals when you are nominated
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against people like that, you're like, is my name really
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mentioned in the same sentence?
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That's how we felt.
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You're sitting there, I'm telling you. And it's a wonderful
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feeling when you see these other podcasts that you admire
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and at the level that they're putting out this information,
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this product, this brand. It's, I don't know. Sometimes you
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feel like, I don't belong up there, but I'm going
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to take it and I'll be grateful.
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Yeah.
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But y'all do belong there.
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Oh, thank you.
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And not only have y'all put something out that week
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after week is professional and ethical and you always put
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the right foot forward every time. You have put something
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out so personal. There's a lot of people that just
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couldn't do it without showing some negativity or retribution. And
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you have just been remarkable, both of you. And I've
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told Kristen this, but I appreciate the kind of friend
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she is to you, Bill.
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Oh, me too.
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People would want to hitch to your wagon for fame
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or fortune or whatever they think's coming. That ain't why
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she's in this thing. It's never wanted anything from you, but...
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answers and justice. So I think the two of you,
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there was no accident y'all met. It is no accident
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what y'all do every week.
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Oh, thank you. Yeah. Thank you. Kismet.
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Anybody who is familiar with Zone 7, though, has heard
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you talk about Melissa Wolfe and Barger for a number
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of years now. But there are definitely going to be
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people out there who aren't familiar with her case.
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So run us through her case, please. So the way
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I got involved, I was given a speech. It was
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a black tie event. Everybody is super dressed up. And
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in my peripheral, I see this woman come in. She's
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wearing Bermuda shorts, a tank top, and a straw hat.
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So she kind of stood out a little.
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She stood out. And so I also noticed that she's
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holding an 8x10 frame like she's hugging it. That's got
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to be somebody's mama. So when I got done, I
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walked over to her. She turned the frame around, and
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there was this beautiful girl, long brown hair, real friendly,
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sweet smile. And she said, this is my daughter, Melissa.
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She was beheaded in Atlanta. Will you help me? There's
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no way to say no to that. There's just no way.
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So I told her, absolutely. But I can't really talk
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to you here at this event when you come to
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my office next week. She didn't. But she walked in.
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She had a binder. By the time that event happened,
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she came to my office. Y'all, I racked my brain.
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I must have called 15 to 20 buddies. How do
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I not know this case? Eddins are rare anyway, but
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you've got a 20-something, I was guessing, Caucasian female that's
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beheaded in Atlanta, and I've never heard of her.
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And you don't know about it?
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Somebody would have mentioned that. We all get together and
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have dinner and drinks, and we hang out socially, and
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we trade stories. Somebody would have said that. I knew
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nothing of it. So when she got there, I instinctively
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started to reach for that binder because I wanted to
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get in that thing. She put her hand on it
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and she said, I know you've already agreed to help me,
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but I've got to tell you something first. Okay. And
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she said, my husband is in prison for murder and
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I helped him.
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Wow. This is a different.
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Now that she's getting into it.
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As y'all know, people usually spend their time whining to me.
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That wasn't me. That don't even look like me. I
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went nowhere near there. So as y'all know, y'all are
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friends of mine. I use humor. So I just said
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to her, remind me not to make you mad.
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Did she laugh?
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She laughed. Thank the Lord. What else to say to that?
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Because for a second, I'm like, what? You're trying to
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kill somebody and you helped him. But then your daughter
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was murdered. I needed a second. I used humor. And
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she said yes. And she started to explain her husband's crimes.
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And as she told, these crimes are familiar to me.
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Melissa is not. But these are somehow, I'm connecting.
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So there's other murders then that she's talking about that
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are in the mix.
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So she starts to talk about these cases. And I said,
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wait a minute. Wait a minute. I said, are you
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telling me your husband is the Flint River Killer? And
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she says, yes, but he hates that nickname. I said, okay.
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I said, let's just get something off the table right
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off the bat. Did your husband kill your daughter? And
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she said, no. My husband, he's a family man. He's
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loyal to his family. He said, that's even the first
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person he killed was somebody that beat his aunt almost
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to death. I said, okay. I said, let's talk about Melissa.
255
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So then she started to talk to me. And it
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00:13:44.639 --> 00:13:47.740
wasn't too far into this conversation that I knew at
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some point, I'm going to need to talk to Carl Peck.
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I need to hear from him. He's the one that's
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00:13:54.830 --> 00:13:59.149
got to clear a roadblock for us. Because people are
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going to think that he probably did it. So we've
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00:14:01.889 --> 00:14:04.929
got to work that first. And if I can get
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00:14:04.970 --> 00:14:08.350
him off the table... And then let's start working Melissa's case.
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00:14:08.389 --> 00:14:12.750
So what happened, very briefly, there was a skull found
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00:14:12.789 --> 00:14:17.110
in the middle of Avon Avenue, and it was misidentified
265
00:14:17.250 --> 00:14:22.230
as a Caucasian male. So for four years, that skull
266
00:14:22.309 --> 00:14:25.559
sat on a shell, and Atlanta Police Department thought it
267
00:14:25.600 --> 00:14:29.019
was a white guy. We had no white missing males.
268
00:14:29.100 --> 00:14:33.039
We had no Caucasian male bodies with no head. So
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00:14:33.799 --> 00:14:37.240
that was it. Melissa, her mom tried to report her
270
00:14:37.299 --> 00:14:40.419
as missing, but she was married at the time. And
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her husband said she wasn't missing. She ran off to California.
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So Atlanta wouldn't even take a missing person report. So
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00:14:47.519 --> 00:14:51.370
we didn't put missing Caucasian female. Her home police department
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00:14:51.389 --> 00:14:54.470
told her the same thing. Ma'am, she's married. Her husband
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00:14:54.509 --> 00:14:56.690
said she's run off. She can run away if she
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00:14:56.730 --> 00:14:59.769
wants to. That's not a crime if you're grown. So
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00:14:59.850 --> 00:15:02.659
nobody would take the police report. So that's why I
278
00:15:02.700 --> 00:15:05.259
never heard of it. Atlanta didn't have it as a
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00:15:05.279 --> 00:15:07.539
missing person or a homicide. Wow.
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00:15:07.799 --> 00:15:11.019
Let me stop you for a second, though, Mac. I'm confused.
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00:15:11.450 --> 00:15:16.669
This skull is found. Wouldn't a DNA test have shown
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00:15:16.730 --> 00:15:19.830
them that this was a female rather than a male?
283
00:15:20.669 --> 00:15:22.730
Correct. This was 1998, 1999, 1990, etc. They didn't have it.
284
00:15:22.750 --> 00:15:32.370
So she wasn't identified until 2004 through dental records. was
285
00:15:32.389 --> 00:15:35.350
not even an option. Ancestry wasn't even an option for them.
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00:15:35.629 --> 00:15:38.529
And they thought they got the right information. It's a man.
287
00:15:39.409 --> 00:15:42.809
So they were waiting to see if somebody in neighboring
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00:15:42.870 --> 00:15:47.100
counties or cities or states had a man that was beheaded.
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00:15:47.519 --> 00:15:50.480
They even had one theory that maybe this person was
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00:15:50.519 --> 00:15:54.169
beheaded and they brought the head as proof. but the
291
00:15:54.210 --> 00:15:57.230
body's in another state. This was a mob hit, and
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00:15:57.269 --> 00:15:59.809
this was some transient person. They didn't know.
293
00:16:00.230 --> 00:16:05.059
Because it is, in a professional capacity, beheading is fairly rare,
294
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isn't it?
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00:16:05.899 --> 00:16:07.059
And this is not something.
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00:16:07.080 --> 00:16:09.759
Have you seen others in the course of your career?
297
00:16:10.080 --> 00:16:12.379
I've seen very few, but I have. I have. But
298
00:16:12.440 --> 00:16:15.940
it's less than five total. And you're talking about 44 years,
299
00:16:15.980 --> 00:16:16.899
and it's less than five.
300
00:16:17.899 --> 00:16:21.830
So this would have been a very notable case, which
301
00:16:21.889 --> 00:16:23.889
is why you said you absolutely would have heard of
302
00:16:23.929 --> 00:16:25.850
it if somebody had been beheaded in Atlanta.
303
00:16:26.230 --> 00:16:28.710
No question. Everybody would have been talking about it, even
304
00:16:28.750 --> 00:16:31.350
if it wasn't their case. It's just one of those
305
00:16:31.389 --> 00:16:34.700
that would have been so unusual because they went back.
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00:16:34.960 --> 00:16:38.259
She was found, April, the skull. They went back and
307
00:16:38.299 --> 00:16:41.840
was searching the area again. In June, they found two
308
00:16:42.000 --> 00:16:45.840
arms and two legs in four separate trash bags. Now
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00:16:45.860 --> 00:16:50.120
we have five people all with skeletal remains. The torso
310
00:16:50.139 --> 00:16:53.460
was never found, ever. It still hasn't been found today. Oh,
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00:16:53.539 --> 00:16:54.240
my God.
312
00:16:54.320 --> 00:16:58.299
And so are those five body parts the same person?
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00:16:59.230 --> 00:17:03.169
Yeah, they absolutely thought that. So what they did, obviously,
314
00:17:03.629 --> 00:17:05.450
they put the arms and legs on the shelf with
315
00:17:05.470 --> 00:17:07.609
the skull thinking it's the same guy. Yep.
316
00:17:08.250 --> 00:17:10.690
And it's not for five or six years that they
317
00:17:10.750 --> 00:17:14.119
finally figure out, as you said, through dental records, Oh,
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00:17:14.160 --> 00:17:16.529
this is not a man. This is a woman.
319
00:17:16.549 --> 00:17:21.970
And so they lost four years of the homicide investigation.
320
00:17:21.990 --> 00:17:23.150
Wow.
321
00:17:23.170 --> 00:17:25.589
Wow. And then the case went cold again. And it
322
00:17:25.670 --> 00:17:29.529
went cold again. And detectives retire and knew what's going on. Oh, yeah.
323
00:17:29.549 --> 00:17:30.049
We've been there.
324
00:17:30.069 --> 00:17:33.529
That's why we lived it. And you know what it's
325
00:17:33.630 --> 00:17:37.009
like to be reintroduced and have to bring people up
326
00:17:37.049 --> 00:17:39.410
to speed. And you're asking the same questions. And do
327
00:17:39.450 --> 00:17:41.589
you think you're going to do this and that? So
328
00:17:41.609 --> 00:17:46.240
the family lived that over and over. The sister, Tina,
329
00:17:46.640 --> 00:17:50.160
worked at a diner, and a buddy of mine from
330
00:17:50.200 --> 00:17:53.740
high school went there every week. One day, she noticed
331
00:17:53.789 --> 00:17:56.269
that Tina was super sad, and she said, what's going
332
00:17:56.349 --> 00:17:59.069
on here? Always so bubbly. And Tina said, my sister
333
00:17:59.109 --> 00:18:03.349
was murdered 20-something years ago, and today's the anniversary, and
334
00:18:03.410 --> 00:18:05.930
it's just getting to me. So my friend from high
335
00:18:05.950 --> 00:18:08.140
school said, you've got to meet my friend Cheryl McCollum.
336
00:18:08.180 --> 00:18:10.980
She's got this institute. She can help you. And so
337
00:18:11.019 --> 00:18:14.450
Tina went home and told her mom. Her mom went
338
00:18:14.470 --> 00:18:18.029
to the president and told Carl. Carl said, you look
339
00:18:18.069 --> 00:18:21.369
on her website or her social media, signed out where
340
00:18:21.410 --> 00:18:24.349
she's going to be and just show up. Oh, okay.
341
00:18:24.369 --> 00:18:28.170
So that's why she shows up that evening at the
342
00:18:28.210 --> 00:18:31.130
black tie event. And she wasn't prepared to go to
343
00:18:31.259 --> 00:18:33.160
a black tie event, but she did want to meet you.
344
00:18:33.180 --> 00:18:36.259
Probably the smartest thing she could have done, actually.
345
00:18:36.799 --> 00:18:39.779
That's how it happened. And I contacted all my inner
346
00:18:39.819 --> 00:18:45.829
circle folks, Dr. Dwayne Thompson, Karen Greer. Trey Sargent, Aids Grace,
347
00:18:45.990 --> 00:18:47.630
all of them. And I said, I've got this case.
348
00:18:48.269 --> 00:18:50.509
I think we can do something with it. What do
349
00:18:50.549 --> 00:18:54.670
you think? And everybody was like, yeah, we're in. Because again,
350
00:18:54.789 --> 00:18:58.809
it's never happened before, y'all. A serial killer becomes a
351
00:18:58.869 --> 00:19:02.089
true victim of crime, meaning somebody in his family was
352
00:19:02.230 --> 00:19:05.690
murdered and that he reaches out to law enforcement for
353
00:19:05.759 --> 00:19:08.700
help and then to a nonprofit. It's never happened.
354
00:19:09.500 --> 00:19:13.079
I wanted to ask about that dynamic. Now, Carl Patton,
355
00:19:13.700 --> 00:19:17.269
Is a serial killer. But in this case, he's the
356
00:19:17.470 --> 00:19:21.349
father of a murder victim and he's not responsible for
357
00:19:21.369 --> 00:19:27.430
their daughter Melissa's murder. And Norma Patton, his wife, admits
358
00:19:27.609 --> 00:19:32.569
to her involvement in Carl Patton's murders and helping dispose
359
00:19:32.609 --> 00:19:34.950
of the bodies and so on, which is shocking in
360
00:19:34.990 --> 00:19:40.119
and of itself. How did... People in your law enforcement
361
00:19:40.259 --> 00:19:44.920
circle respond to the idea that, hey, we're all going
362
00:19:44.940 --> 00:19:48.529
to take a look at Melissa's case. Oh, by the way,
363
00:19:48.670 --> 00:19:53.660
she's the daughter. of a serial killer and his accomplice wife.
364
00:19:54.119 --> 00:19:58.079
Did people respond favorably to that or were they put off?
365
00:19:58.799 --> 00:20:02.720
Favorably in law enforcement for the most part. I got
366
00:20:02.759 --> 00:20:06.390
a little pushback. saying, why don't you just deal with
367
00:20:06.490 --> 00:20:08.750
an FBI profiler? Why don't you just deal with other
368
00:20:08.789 --> 00:20:10.390
people to solve your case? Why do you have to
369
00:20:10.410 --> 00:20:14.230
deal with him? Because he is the one person and
370
00:20:14.289 --> 00:20:19.509
the only person that could give me victimology and suspectology
371
00:20:20.089 --> 00:20:23.470
at that level. You've got a whole lot of FBI
372
00:20:23.509 --> 00:20:26.509
profilers that have never killed anybody. They ain't no help
373
00:20:26.549 --> 00:20:28.839
to me, and they didn't know Melissa. I want to
374
00:20:28.880 --> 00:20:31.599
talk to him. I want to know what he knows,
375
00:20:31.680 --> 00:20:35.480
what he thinks, what he feels, what he sees. That's
376
00:20:35.519 --> 00:20:38.599
going to help me determine a couple things. One, whether
377
00:20:38.619 --> 00:20:42.480
or not he did it. Number two, who is he thinking?
378
00:20:43.440 --> 00:20:47.359
Who's on his list? So if I have the same
379
00:20:47.420 --> 00:20:51.420
person on my list, let's work from there until that
380
00:20:51.539 --> 00:20:54.420
is exhausted. When somebody else pops up, we're going to
381
00:20:54.440 --> 00:20:58.059
work that until that's exhausted and so on. This to
382
00:20:58.119 --> 00:21:01.640
me was not only a unique opportunity, it was one
383
00:21:01.700 --> 00:21:04.559
that at the end of the day, we're two parents.
384
00:21:05.460 --> 00:21:08.160
So I can't say, you did some really shitty things
385
00:21:08.440 --> 00:21:10.990
and you killed five people, so I'm not going to
386
00:21:11.009 --> 00:21:13.930
help you. What does that say about me? First of all,
387
00:21:14.910 --> 00:21:18.589
Melissa should not suffer for the sins of the father.
388
00:21:18.809 --> 00:21:22.500
That should never happen. And I hope people don't judge
389
00:21:22.559 --> 00:21:26.339
my children just on me. My children are better people
390
00:21:26.380 --> 00:21:30.299
than I am. They're kinder. They're smarter. They're, I think, funnier.
391
00:21:30.779 --> 00:21:33.920
They're more athletic. So don't hold them back because of
392
00:21:33.980 --> 00:21:37.410
me or to use profanity on your show. But they're
393
00:21:37.430 --> 00:21:42.289
better people. But you should get Caroline Grace, not say
394
00:21:42.309 --> 00:21:47.369
your mama, she's kind of travesty. But Caroline's not. It's
395
00:21:47.390 --> 00:21:50.519
a miracle, but she's not. So I'm just saying. In
396
00:21:50.559 --> 00:21:55.950
this situation, at the end of the day, Carl lost
397
00:21:56.109 --> 00:22:00.069
a child to homicide, and not just I shot her
398
00:22:00.089 --> 00:22:03.849
from a distance. I chopped her into pieces, put her
399
00:22:03.890 --> 00:22:06.740
in trash bags, and threw her in a junkyard.
400
00:22:06.819 --> 00:22:07.559
Like trash.
401
00:22:08.000 --> 00:22:08.200
Yeah.
402
00:22:08.259 --> 00:22:10.619
And here's the other thing, Bill, at the end of
403
00:22:10.640 --> 00:22:14.619
the day, I don't want this person out that could
404
00:22:14.759 --> 00:22:19.470
sub in Kristen's classroom. I don't want this person out
405
00:22:19.579 --> 00:22:22.019
that could pop gasoline next to your beautiful wife.
406
00:22:22.319 --> 00:22:22.519
Yeah.
407
00:22:22.839 --> 00:22:25.940
I don't want this person out. So I can take
408
00:22:26.019 --> 00:22:30.119
Carl out of the equation completely. And for the record,
409
00:22:30.460 --> 00:22:33.960
I never forgot who or what Carl Patton was. It
410
00:22:34.009 --> 00:22:37.250
wasn't like we were buddies. I didn't send him money.
411
00:22:37.670 --> 00:22:39.690
I didn't put money on his book. I didn't send
412
00:22:39.730 --> 00:22:44.190
him Christmas gifts. We exchanged letters, 26 of them to
413
00:22:44.230 --> 00:22:48.450
be exact, that talked about this case and this case only.
414
00:22:48.990 --> 00:22:50.630
And it would take him about two and a half
415
00:22:50.690 --> 00:22:54.089
weeks to get my letter, sometimes a week to respond,
416
00:22:54.130 --> 00:22:55.559
and then me two and a half weeks to get
417
00:22:55.579 --> 00:22:59.119
it back. This was not a quick process, but the
418
00:22:59.140 --> 00:23:02.299
Department of Corrections refused to let us meet together.
419
00:23:02.640 --> 00:23:05.460
Oh, I was going, I thought at some point you
420
00:23:05.500 --> 00:23:07.799
would have been given the opportunity to sit down.
421
00:23:07.819 --> 00:23:12.579
No, and Even when I said, listen, I ain't afraid.
422
00:23:12.599 --> 00:23:18.279
And number two, this is a father of a murdered child.
423
00:23:18.660 --> 00:23:22.400
He should have every right to talk to law enforcement,
424
00:23:23.000 --> 00:23:28.089
a nonprofit, a civilian, a reporter to help solve this case,
425
00:23:28.130 --> 00:23:31.609
to get the word out. They refused. Every crime.
426
00:23:32.009 --> 00:23:36.160
What's their reasoning? Where does the Department of Corrections get
427
00:23:36.400 --> 00:23:39.220
off saying to you, you can't come in and meet
428
00:23:39.480 --> 00:23:43.339
with Carl Patton under the right conditions? What do they say?
429
00:23:43.400 --> 00:23:44.299
What's their reasoning?
430
00:23:45.140 --> 00:23:47.519
First of all, at the top of my request, it
431
00:23:47.559 --> 00:23:52.990
was handwritten denied. Handwritten denied. And then they said something
432
00:23:53.029 --> 00:23:57.509
about because of his status, he is not able to.
433
00:23:57.920 --> 00:24:01.579
To have anybody that's not direct family. But that's BS.
434
00:24:01.680 --> 00:24:04.680
I mean, Wayne Williams gets interviewed by people and gets
435
00:24:04.700 --> 00:24:05.599
to make phone calls.
436
00:24:05.660 --> 00:24:05.839
Yep.
437
00:24:06.279 --> 00:24:09.160
They have their list. But I told Carl, I said, listen,
438
00:24:09.569 --> 00:24:13.079
once you get a nickname, a moniker, you can forget it.
439
00:24:13.690 --> 00:24:16.529
You are the Flint River Killer. That's it. That's all
440
00:24:16.549 --> 00:24:18.690
you're going to be to them. And now that he's,
441
00:24:19.470 --> 00:24:21.769
he has died. He died a year and a half ago.
442
00:24:22.190 --> 00:24:24.630
So I will tell you, because I didn't want to
443
00:24:24.670 --> 00:24:27.130
say anything before because he would get in trouble. But
444
00:24:27.170 --> 00:24:29.589
he was able to commandeer a cell phone every now
445
00:24:29.609 --> 00:24:35.170
and then. Oh, really? Every now and then, whenever he
446
00:24:35.210 --> 00:24:39.869
wanted to. So we got to talk so often, we
447
00:24:39.890 --> 00:24:43.009
actually had a code worked out because every phone that
448
00:24:43.049 --> 00:24:45.910
he would commandeer had a different area code. Sometimes I
449
00:24:45.950 --> 00:24:49.670
may not answer it. If it's like a B41 or
450
00:24:49.690 --> 00:24:52.009
a 717 or a 212. So we worked out a
451
00:24:52.049 --> 00:24:54.490
code so I would know, oh, that's Carl.
452
00:24:54.730 --> 00:24:54.869
Wow.
453
00:24:58.059 --> 00:25:00.660
You're listening to Mind Over Murder. We'll be right back
454
00:25:01.019 --> 00:25:08.250
after this word from our sponsors. We're back here at
455
00:25:08.289 --> 00:25:09.049
Mind Over Murder.
456
00:25:10.289 --> 00:25:13.529
How long did it take you to determine, no, this
457
00:25:13.589 --> 00:25:15.890
guy had nothing to do with his daughter's murder? Because
458
00:25:15.910 --> 00:25:18.960
I'm sure that it crossed your mind. You asked Norma
459
00:25:19.039 --> 00:25:20.680
when you met her, how do you know your husband
460
00:25:20.720 --> 00:25:22.940
didn't kill her? How long did it take you in
461
00:25:23.339 --> 00:25:25.240
your gut to go, no, it wasn't him?
462
00:25:25.319 --> 00:25:29.259
Before I ever spoke to him. And here's why. He's
463
00:25:29.299 --> 00:25:32.990
a criminal. He's a murderer. If he did it and
464
00:25:33.059 --> 00:25:35.299
got away with it for 25 years, all you got
465
00:25:35.319 --> 00:25:36.900
to do is keep your mouth shut. Nobody's told about
466
00:25:36.920 --> 00:25:39.900
your daughter. Atlanta doesn't even know there's a case. Why
467
00:25:39.940 --> 00:25:42.859
do you keep going to every detective you can find?
468
00:25:42.920 --> 00:25:45.380
Why do you keep writing letters to everybody you can
469
00:25:45.400 --> 00:25:47.819
think of? Why are you sending your wife to an
470
00:25:47.859 --> 00:25:51.000
event where I'm speaking? You got away with it. Let
471
00:25:51.039 --> 00:25:53.859
it go. Be done. That was the first thing that
472
00:25:53.880 --> 00:25:56.940
to me I thought was pretty stellar. That's pretty solid.
473
00:25:57.420 --> 00:26:00.119
The next thing is she's found right across the street
474
00:26:00.200 --> 00:26:03.210
from where her husband worked. So if Carl was going
475
00:26:03.230 --> 00:26:05.680
to set her husband up, why didn't he call and
476
00:26:05.720 --> 00:26:09.180
drop it down? Law enforcement never found her body. Carl
477
00:26:09.299 --> 00:26:12.700
is sitting there in prison thinking she's missing but not dead.
478
00:26:13.019 --> 00:26:15.619
She's dead the whole time. And this happened before he
479
00:26:15.660 --> 00:26:18.200
went to prison. She was missing before he went to prison.
480
00:26:18.900 --> 00:26:21.880
So he would have known she wasn't missing. But that's
481
00:26:21.920 --> 00:26:25.380
not how he acted. They searched for her. They went
482
00:26:25.420 --> 00:26:27.980
to different people looking for her, went to different places
483
00:26:28.019 --> 00:26:28.609
looking for her.
484
00:26:29.849 --> 00:26:33.869
The Flint River Killer nickname, and I'm not crazy about
485
00:26:33.910 --> 00:26:39.240
these nicknames, but do develop over time, usually media-driven. When
486
00:26:39.299 --> 00:26:44.539
I first saw Flint River, I associated this with Flint, Michigan.
487
00:26:44.700 --> 00:26:45.380
Yep, same.
488
00:26:45.420 --> 00:26:53.009
Because it seemed like that was a better-known community name. Probably.
489
00:26:53.049 --> 00:26:57.990
So I was kind of confused. He dumped bodies in
490
00:26:58.009 --> 00:27:00.990
the Flint and Okmulgee Rivers. Am I correct?
491
00:27:01.509 --> 00:27:02.069
In Georgia.
492
00:27:02.369 --> 00:27:04.690
And so this has always been a Georgia case.
493
00:27:05.750 --> 00:27:07.470
No connection to Michigan at all.
494
00:27:07.869 --> 00:27:10.849
And so when she came and spoke to you that evening,
495
00:27:11.029 --> 00:27:12.829
was that event in Atlanta?
496
00:27:13.349 --> 00:27:18.259
Yes. Yeah. So we hear what they tell about the Flint. Ironically,
497
00:27:18.599 --> 00:27:21.220
most people don't know this, but the Flint River starts
498
00:27:21.279 --> 00:27:24.660
real small in East Point, Georgia, just south of Atlanta.
499
00:27:24.859 --> 00:27:29.660
It actually runs up under the runway at Hartsfield Airport.
500
00:27:30.000 --> 00:27:30.640
Oh, I've been there.
501
00:27:31.460 --> 00:27:32.599
You've been on the Flint?
502
00:27:33.420 --> 00:27:33.980
No idea.
503
00:27:34.200 --> 00:27:36.579
I grew up in East Point and I worked. My
504
00:27:36.599 --> 00:27:39.079
police department is right there. I can see the airport
505
00:27:39.119 --> 00:27:40.559
tower from our back lot.
506
00:27:40.660 --> 00:27:41.319
I remembered that.
507
00:27:42.059 --> 00:27:45.309
The Flynn has been in and throughout my life, my
508
00:27:45.349 --> 00:27:48.390
whole life. This was one of those full circle moments
509
00:27:48.430 --> 00:27:51.470
for me as well. Obviously, we don't want you to
510
00:27:51.490 --> 00:27:53.390
spoil the book. We want people to buy the book.
511
00:27:53.890 --> 00:27:58.079
But were you able to bring Melissa's case to a
512
00:27:58.279 --> 00:27:59.940
successful conclusion?
513
00:28:00.140 --> 00:28:02.380
I think that's the best way to ask it without
514
00:28:02.400 --> 00:28:06.700
spoiling it. Okay. I was able to bring it to
515
00:28:06.779 --> 00:28:10.660
a successful conclusion depending on how you define that.
516
00:28:11.849 --> 00:28:15.890
Okay. This is a very lawyerly answer, actually.
517
00:28:16.569 --> 00:28:20.769
All right. Because our worlds are different. So if you
518
00:28:20.849 --> 00:28:24.589
are a homicide detective, when you arrest somebody, that case
519
00:28:24.670 --> 00:28:27.910
is cleared. You cleared it. So that would be successful
520
00:28:27.950 --> 00:28:32.019
to you. But to a prosecutor, you want to indict them.
521
00:28:32.170 --> 00:28:37.880
That's successful. But the DDA wants a conviction. So again,
522
00:28:37.920 --> 00:28:40.660
it depends on who you ask whether or not it
523
00:28:40.720 --> 00:28:44.519
was successful. I think what's important with this book for
524
00:28:44.559 --> 00:28:47.200
me is it's now in the court of public opinion.
525
00:28:47.859 --> 00:28:51.680
Whether it's an OJ debate, whether it's, hey, this should
526
00:28:51.700 --> 00:28:54.359
have happened or that should have happened, as much as
527
00:28:54.579 --> 00:28:57.799
I knew to tell, I told. And I think you're
528
00:28:57.819 --> 00:29:01.160
going to have enough information. You can make a determination.
529
00:29:01.200 --> 00:29:03.880
But at the end of the day, it also has
530
00:29:03.920 --> 00:29:07.329
a pretty solid component for domestic violence. She did have
531
00:29:07.369 --> 00:29:10.309
a marriage that was not always kind to her. She
532
00:29:10.349 --> 00:29:12.650
had a family that was not always kind to her.
533
00:29:13.410 --> 00:29:16.009
And I think if you look at the totality of
534
00:29:16.049 --> 00:29:19.579
her life, she didn't stand a chance. And I think
535
00:29:19.619 --> 00:29:22.259
that's something that people need to be aware of. She
536
00:29:22.299 --> 00:29:24.779
didn't have jobs all the time. She didn't have a telephone.
537
00:29:25.160 --> 00:29:28.059
She didn't have a car. There were things that she
538
00:29:28.099 --> 00:29:31.940
was limited in if she could ask for help, if
539
00:29:32.029 --> 00:29:36.190
she could go somewhere. So like when her husband says,
540
00:29:36.269 --> 00:29:38.829
she left me and she went to California. How? She
541
00:29:38.869 --> 00:29:41.710
didn't have two dimes to rub together and she would
542
00:29:41.769 --> 00:29:46.099
not have left her children. She wouldn't. There's just a lot.
543
00:29:46.339 --> 00:29:48.779
And it's like any case you work. A lot of
544
00:29:48.799 --> 00:29:51.119
people think, oh, these cases, A to B, it's a
545
00:29:51.140 --> 00:29:55.259
slam dunk. They're not. And they have layers to them.
546
00:29:55.900 --> 00:29:59.759
And they have complexities and twists and turns. And this
547
00:29:59.880 --> 00:30:03.019
one is no different. It's no different. Her dad was
548
00:30:03.079 --> 00:30:06.240
a violent person, but he wasn't too true.
549
00:30:07.279 --> 00:30:10.960
Is this the first time that you're aware of that
550
00:30:11.000 --> 00:30:16.119
an investigator like yourself has assisted a serial killer who's
551
00:30:16.180 --> 00:30:18.759
also the father of a murder victim?
552
00:30:19.579 --> 00:30:23.099
We cannot find another case in history where a serial
553
00:30:23.140 --> 00:30:27.319
killer became a true victim of crime that reached out
554
00:30:27.339 --> 00:30:31.069
to law enforcement for help. So, for example, Jeffrey Dahmer
555
00:30:31.430 --> 00:30:34.440
became a crown victim. He was murdered in prison, but
556
00:30:34.759 --> 00:30:37.799
he had no way, obviously, of doing anything. He was killed.
557
00:30:38.259 --> 00:30:41.630
Jack the Ripper, Ted Bundy, like none of these folks
558
00:30:41.690 --> 00:30:45.690
that you know had anybody in their family also murdered
559
00:30:46.150 --> 00:30:49.470
where that serial killer reached out to law enforcement. We
560
00:30:49.509 --> 00:30:53.339
can't find it. That is really fascinating.
561
00:30:53.559 --> 00:30:58.660
Was Norma, Melissa's mom, was she ultimately satisfied with the
562
00:30:58.700 --> 00:31:02.799
conclusion that you were able to bring her daughter's case to?
563
00:31:03.880 --> 00:31:08.980
That is her child. There will never be satisfaction. Sure.
564
00:31:09.700 --> 00:31:13.900
And I understand it. Because you look at what you
565
00:31:13.920 --> 00:31:18.579
think of your parents, your children, your coworkers, you know
566
00:31:18.640 --> 00:31:22.019
their value. I may walk into your classroom and go, woo,
567
00:31:22.059 --> 00:31:24.900
that kid's got a smart mouth. But you know that kid.
568
00:31:25.420 --> 00:31:28.359
And as far as them comes from something you're aware of,
569
00:31:29.059 --> 00:31:32.420
you know his true intellect. You know what he's masking.
570
00:31:33.019 --> 00:31:36.779
Where I might just see a smart-aleck teenager. That's the
571
00:31:36.819 --> 00:31:41.130
same thing here. Their family was damaged. They had hurt
572
00:31:41.309 --> 00:31:44.190
other people the same way they were hurt. I mean,
573
00:31:44.210 --> 00:31:47.500
I've had people to my face say that's karma and
574
00:31:47.519 --> 00:31:50.539
they wanted to move on. What's the problem with karma?
575
00:31:51.220 --> 00:31:56.339
You're okay leaving a killer out there? I'm not. So
576
00:31:56.380 --> 00:31:59.650
this isn't an eye for an eye situation. It can't be.
577
00:31:59.990 --> 00:32:04.269
Because if you look at, Carl Patton murdered a couple
578
00:32:04.289 --> 00:32:08.390
of people that were not great people. He also murdered
579
00:32:08.430 --> 00:32:12.000
some people that were completely innocent. He told me straight up,
580
00:32:12.559 --> 00:32:15.980
more than one time, in a letter and over the phone,
581
00:32:17.079 --> 00:32:20.339
that he was a 25-year-old dumb kid when he committed
582
00:32:20.380 --> 00:32:24.240
these murders. And he had no idea the ripple effect.
583
00:32:24.259 --> 00:32:26.539
He told me he never even thought about it. He said,
584
00:32:26.579 --> 00:32:30.480
but when Melissa was taken from them, it gutted him.
585
00:32:31.440 --> 00:32:34.220
And he said that he lived in this personal hell
586
00:32:34.940 --> 00:32:38.430
because he had to come to terms with He did
587
00:32:38.529 --> 00:32:40.750
this to five families. Wow.
588
00:32:40.789 --> 00:32:41.509
Wow.
589
00:32:41.549 --> 00:32:45.740
That's heavy. I don't know that's any comfort to the children,
590
00:32:45.920 --> 00:32:48.799
for example, of Lydia Evans, but at least I was
591
00:32:48.859 --> 00:32:51.940
able to tell them, Carl wants me to tell y'all this.
592
00:32:52.960 --> 00:32:56.269
He doesn't expect y'all to pray for him, acknowledge him
593
00:32:56.289 --> 00:32:58.650
in any way, but he did want you to know it.
594
00:32:58.890 --> 00:33:02.250
And hopefully that brings them some peace. That was able
595
00:33:02.289 --> 00:33:05.150
to happen before he died. But again, you talk about
596
00:33:05.190 --> 00:33:05.789
your child.
597
00:33:06.829 --> 00:33:11.190
This process where you wrote the 26 letters back and forth,
598
00:33:11.890 --> 00:33:16.799
those letters are obviously opened and read by people at
599
00:33:16.839 --> 00:33:21.619
the Department of Corrections. What's that process like for you
600
00:33:21.900 --> 00:33:27.680
as a letter writer? You're seeking information, asking questions, but
601
00:33:27.720 --> 00:33:33.640
you know that someone between you and Carl Patton's cell
602
00:33:33.819 --> 00:33:37.490
is going to read this letter quite carefully. Did that
603
00:33:37.750 --> 00:33:42.440
impact what you put down on paper or how he responded?
604
00:33:43.259 --> 00:33:46.259
No, it was only going to impact if they would
605
00:33:46.539 --> 00:33:49.619
kick it back. So I tried to be real careful
606
00:33:49.680 --> 00:33:52.710
not to say, tell me all of the details of
607
00:33:52.750 --> 00:33:55.210
how you murdered these people because they weren't going to
608
00:33:55.230 --> 00:33:58.160
let that happen. They weren't going to let me say, hey,
609
00:33:58.380 --> 00:34:01.000
what advice would you give if I'm going to talk
610
00:34:01.039 --> 00:34:04.420
to Mr. X or Mr. Y? How should I approach
611
00:34:04.440 --> 00:34:06.900
them if they're also killers? So I didn't do any
612
00:34:06.920 --> 00:34:10.260
of that. I basically just said, let's talk about your upbringing.
613
00:34:11.110 --> 00:34:13.170
Let's talk about it. And I asked him certain questions.
614
00:34:13.670 --> 00:34:15.650
Did you have a favorite relative? Did you have a
615
00:34:15.690 --> 00:34:19.449
favorite teacher? When did you see your wife going in
616
00:34:19.570 --> 00:34:22.730
one direction and not what you had dreamed? You obviously
617
00:34:22.769 --> 00:34:25.030
didn't become a race car driver or a bar buyer.
618
00:34:25.090 --> 00:34:28.219
What happened? And he was real open, as far as
619
00:34:28.300 --> 00:34:32.530
I know. Norma has never corrected anything, so it's her
620
00:34:32.570 --> 00:34:35.849
understanding as well, and they knew each other their whole lives, basically.
621
00:34:36.329 --> 00:34:38.909
He told me some things, and I wrote about most
622
00:34:38.969 --> 00:34:41.150
of them, but didn't write about all of them. And
623
00:34:41.190 --> 00:34:44.329
in the book, I included some of his letters because
624
00:34:44.369 --> 00:34:46.440
I thought it was important for people to see it.
625
00:34:46.969 --> 00:34:52.489
And Kristen, for you especially, his handwriting was... is beautiful.
626
00:34:52.690 --> 00:34:53.550
Oh, wow.
627
00:34:53.849 --> 00:34:54.429
Really?
628
00:34:54.849 --> 00:34:58.550
Number one, a guy that drops out of school in
629
00:34:58.570 --> 00:35:03.380
the ninth grade, has limited skill set. I expect that
630
00:35:03.420 --> 00:35:08.179
his handwriting to be more pre-it, hurried, sloppy. It is cursive.
631
00:35:08.579 --> 00:35:12.289
It is spectacular. Oh, wow. I was trying to get
632
00:35:12.349 --> 00:35:15.380
from him Who taught that to you? Was it your grandma?
633
00:35:15.420 --> 00:35:18.579
Was it your third grade teacher? Somebody spent some time
634
00:35:18.619 --> 00:35:21.920
with him. And he's very bright. You wouldn't know he
635
00:35:21.940 --> 00:35:24.719
dropped out as early as he did. He talks pretty
636
00:35:24.800 --> 00:35:27.989
openly about things. And then I had the transcripts from
637
00:35:28.309 --> 00:35:31.369
all the courts where he testified, except for one. And
638
00:35:31.389 --> 00:35:35.849
they wanted thousands of dollars. So I said, I'm good. Yeah.
639
00:35:36.150 --> 00:35:38.949
He admitted it. He didn't go to trial for any
640
00:35:39.010 --> 00:35:42.280
of them. He admitted every one of them. I read
641
00:35:42.320 --> 00:35:44.940
it and I understood it. It was clear to me
642
00:35:44.960 --> 00:35:46.159
who and what he is.
643
00:35:46.539 --> 00:35:49.780
And for anybody who may be wondering, how did his
644
00:35:50.280 --> 00:35:53.260
wife admit guilt and still end up out of jail?
645
00:35:53.300 --> 00:35:56.300
Can you explain the process by which she was able
646
00:35:56.340 --> 00:35:56.820
to admit?
647
00:35:57.420 --> 00:36:00.429
They had an understanding from the beginning of this thing
648
00:36:00.530 --> 00:36:03.989
that if the police ever show up, you turn state's
649
00:36:04.070 --> 00:36:06.769
evidence to stay out of prison so you can finish
650
00:36:06.829 --> 00:36:09.969
raising the girls. It just so happened he stayed out
651
00:36:09.969 --> 00:36:13.699
25 years. So when they finally did come, they already
652
00:36:13.739 --> 00:36:17.440
had this deal where, okay, I'm going to turn state's evidence.
653
00:36:17.500 --> 00:36:20.039
I'm going to testify against you. You go ahead and
654
00:36:20.059 --> 00:36:23.239
plead guilty. Let's not put anybody through a trial. Not
655
00:36:23.320 --> 00:36:27.400
our family, not the other families. And that's what happened. Wow.
656
00:36:27.659 --> 00:36:31.539
And again, to the families of the victims that he killed,
657
00:36:31.780 --> 00:36:35.349
that doesn't seem like justice. Norma should have gone to prison.
658
00:36:35.949 --> 00:36:38.739
Carl deserved to be in prison till... He took his
659
00:36:38.800 --> 00:36:43.480
last breath. I will never waver on that. You cannot
660
00:36:43.599 --> 00:36:46.989
help human to human, right, if you spend any kind
661
00:36:47.010 --> 00:36:49.989
of time with somebody. And there were days, I will
662
00:36:50.010 --> 00:36:53.190
tell you, Carl and I were just two parents, and
663
00:36:53.269 --> 00:36:56.929
I felt horrible for him. I felt horrible that he's
664
00:36:57.510 --> 00:37:01.420
in that prison and can't comfort Norma. I felt bad
665
00:37:01.460 --> 00:37:04.489
he was stuck there and couldn't look for Melissa. That's
666
00:37:04.550 --> 00:37:06.929
a reason not to do what he did. That should
667
00:37:06.949 --> 00:37:10.420
be a deterrent for people. Because I hear young people
668
00:37:10.460 --> 00:37:12.380
say all the time, I ain't afraid to go to prison.
669
00:37:12.940 --> 00:37:16.179
It ain't about being afraid. It's about all the other
670
00:37:16.199 --> 00:37:18.639
stuff you're not going to be able to do that
671
00:37:18.920 --> 00:37:21.519
you would want to do. And comforting your wife and
672
00:37:22.239 --> 00:37:24.420
your mama and your other children should be one of
673
00:37:24.460 --> 00:37:24.900
those things.
674
00:37:25.199 --> 00:37:28.090
It's amazing to me. Of course, I know sometimes when
675
00:37:28.289 --> 00:37:30.769
someone says that they're coming at this from what they
676
00:37:30.829 --> 00:37:36.050
see as a hardcore approach to life. Talk about sad,
677
00:37:36.110 --> 00:37:39.800
but you would be locked away potentially for years, perhaps
678
00:37:39.840 --> 00:37:41.760
for the rest of your life and not be able
679
00:37:41.800 --> 00:37:45.400
to do all the other things that most people would
680
00:37:45.420 --> 00:37:47.860
be able to do. Even if it's something as simple
681
00:37:47.949 --> 00:37:51.530
as a walk around the block on a beautiful summer evening,
682
00:37:52.170 --> 00:37:53.809
that's never going to happen for you.
683
00:37:53.869 --> 00:37:57.449
Never going to happen. Stop and pet a puppy. There's
684
00:37:57.489 --> 00:38:00.409
so many things. Oh, there's a rainbow. Oh, a shooting star.
685
00:38:00.730 --> 00:38:04.250
There's a thousand miracles every day that you're missing. And
686
00:38:04.369 --> 00:38:08.760
for Carl, I was super clear with him throughout our relationship.
687
00:38:09.420 --> 00:38:11.059
There was no way he should have ever walked out
688
00:38:11.099 --> 00:38:13.940
of that prison. There's just not. I couldn't justify it.
689
00:38:14.969 --> 00:38:17.869
I do think people need to be honest with people.
690
00:38:18.750 --> 00:38:20.829
I don't think somebody should go up for parole every
691
00:38:20.869 --> 00:38:23.239
two years when y'all are never going to let them out.
692
00:38:23.409 --> 00:38:26.139
Stop doing that to people. Tell them, you ain't going anywhere.
693
00:38:26.159 --> 00:38:29.599
Because they say if you take all these classes and
694
00:38:29.619 --> 00:38:32.380
you don't cause any trouble and help other inmates and
695
00:38:32.420 --> 00:38:35.530
you don't get written up for anything, you don't stab anybody,
696
00:38:36.030 --> 00:38:38.369
you can get paroled. In his case, that's not true.
697
00:38:38.610 --> 00:38:41.369
And I basically called him out. Stop telling people to
698
00:38:41.510 --> 00:38:43.730
check all these boxes off if you're not going to
699
00:38:43.769 --> 00:38:46.469
give them the benefit of checking these boxes off. Not
700
00:38:46.510 --> 00:38:49.840
that he needs to be head of some parade. If
701
00:38:49.860 --> 00:38:53.599
you're telling people, maybe after 20 years, 25 years, we're
702
00:38:53.619 --> 00:38:56.139
going to let you out, then you should do that.
703
00:38:56.659 --> 00:38:59.639
But he couldn't even go to his child's funeral. You
704
00:38:59.679 --> 00:39:03.480
wouldn't let him go out knowing he was having heart failure.
705
00:39:03.960 --> 00:39:06.880
I just think the truth matters. Wow.
706
00:39:07.099 --> 00:39:08.719
Is Norma Patton still alive?
707
00:39:09.320 --> 00:39:11.570
Yes. Talked to her 15 minutes ago.
708
00:39:12.449 --> 00:39:15.610
Oh, okay. What's your relationship like?
709
00:39:16.489 --> 00:39:21.679
Here's the thing. Carl said, don't forget her. In other words,
710
00:39:22.019 --> 00:39:24.559
he didn't want it to be, okay, I'm only going
711
00:39:24.579 --> 00:39:27.690
to deal with her as long as I'm investigating the case.
712
00:39:27.750 --> 00:39:30.469
When that's over, we're done. And I said, Carl. I
713
00:39:30.489 --> 00:39:33.389
don't operate that way. If he was alive today, I
714
00:39:33.409 --> 00:39:37.570
would still be writing. We don't share Christmas, y'all. But
715
00:39:38.219 --> 00:39:42.119
she is a mama that I've grown to understand. And
716
00:39:42.280 --> 00:39:45.800
I certainly, on many levels, care for her and what
717
00:39:45.860 --> 00:39:49.739
has happened to her child. She has another child, Tina.
718
00:39:50.800 --> 00:39:54.519
I admire Tina. Tina, again, has not had an easy life.
719
00:39:55.119 --> 00:39:57.840
Her sister was murdered. Her father was put in prison
720
00:39:58.139 --> 00:40:01.780
as a murderer. Her mom admitted to helping him. Can
721
00:40:01.800 --> 00:40:03.300
you imagine? Good God.
722
00:40:03.340 --> 00:40:07.030
Wow. This is one strike after.
723
00:40:07.090 --> 00:40:07.710
One strike.
724
00:40:07.750 --> 00:40:08.190
Yeah.
725
00:40:08.869 --> 00:40:12.869
Tina is friendly. She asks about hugging Caroline every time
726
00:40:12.929 --> 00:40:16.530
I see her. She tries to make sure her mama
727
00:40:16.630 --> 00:40:19.500
is taken care of. So you have a family that
728
00:40:19.539 --> 00:40:24.079
is very different than mine, and they have their own
729
00:40:24.400 --> 00:40:28.440
understanding of loyalty, which a lot of it I subscribe
730
00:40:28.480 --> 00:40:31.719
to as well. Loyalty, and again, the two of you
731
00:40:31.800 --> 00:40:36.050
are friends. You are dear friends of mine. Bill, you've
732
00:40:36.070 --> 00:40:38.869
been nothing but loyal to the point there was a
733
00:40:38.909 --> 00:40:41.829
time or two it didn't make any sense. You offered
734
00:40:41.849 --> 00:40:46.010
to get me in another state. But that's what friends do.
735
00:40:48.039 --> 00:40:51.579
That's what friends do. So especially when it comes to family,
736
00:40:51.840 --> 00:40:54.420
if one of my sisters hates somebody, that's it. I
737
00:40:54.420 --> 00:40:58.849
don't even have to know why. They're done. Right. So
738
00:40:59.530 --> 00:41:02.389
Carl was one of those people. And most women have
739
00:41:02.429 --> 00:41:05.489
at some point in their life had their daddy or
740
00:41:05.550 --> 00:41:09.329
an uncle or a brother. Some male has said to them,
741
00:41:09.489 --> 00:41:12.380
if any man ever hurt you, I'll kill him. Carl
742
00:41:12.400 --> 00:41:16.300
Patton meant it. So the first person Carl ever murdered
743
00:41:16.780 --> 00:41:19.539
was a man that beat his aunt almost to death.
744
00:41:20.360 --> 00:41:21.739
So there was a reason for this.
745
00:41:22.280 --> 00:41:27.159
Okay. This ain't great. I'm not subscribing to, hey, kill
746
00:41:27.179 --> 00:41:28.219
somebody that wrongs you.
747
00:41:28.500 --> 00:41:28.860
No.
748
00:41:29.599 --> 00:41:29.860
No.
749
00:41:30.679 --> 00:41:34.940
But I understand him in doing what he did. I
750
00:41:35.039 --> 00:41:38.539
get it. I get it. So that to me is
751
00:41:38.579 --> 00:41:41.940
a very different murder story. Then I'm going to murder
752
00:41:41.960 --> 00:41:45.139
this 21-year-old mother of two, chop her up, put her
753
00:41:45.179 --> 00:41:47.619
in trash bags, and put her in a junkyard. It's
754
00:41:47.639 --> 00:41:49.340
a very different killing. Yeah.
755
00:41:50.340 --> 00:41:55.329
Because I teach writing and because I write myself, I
756
00:41:55.429 --> 00:41:59.050
always want to ask people what their writing process actually
757
00:41:59.090 --> 00:42:01.809
looks like because it's different for all of us. So
758
00:42:01.929 --> 00:42:05.309
how in your busy life did you manage to write
759
00:42:05.329 --> 00:42:05.590
a book?
760
00:42:06.789 --> 00:42:09.989
Okay. Anne Rowland and I were friends. I'm not trying
761
00:42:10.010 --> 00:42:11.579
to name drop. I'm just trying to tell you all
762
00:42:11.619 --> 00:42:15.159
the truth. I asked her that same question and she
763
00:42:15.219 --> 00:42:17.460
told me, she said, you've got a lot of great stories.
764
00:42:18.519 --> 00:42:21.639
All you got to do is write 20 minutes a day.
765
00:42:21.880 --> 00:42:24.599
That's it. She said, some days you'll get on a roll.
766
00:42:24.639 --> 00:42:27.619
You may write two hours. Some days it might be
767
00:42:27.659 --> 00:42:30.639
a struggle to write 10 minutes. It'll all work out.
768
00:42:30.880 --> 00:42:33.619
It'll all even out. That's what I did. I had
769
00:42:33.659 --> 00:42:35.210
her in my head and I thought I could write
770
00:42:35.250 --> 00:42:37.789
for 20 minutes. So I just started with kind of
771
00:42:37.809 --> 00:42:40.800
an outline. And then I thought, I'm not a writer,
772
00:42:40.920 --> 00:42:44.139
so I don't have a process of developing characters or
773
00:42:44.179 --> 00:42:47.730
knowing where to put different chapters. So I said, I'm
774
00:42:47.750 --> 00:42:50.190
just going to write it like I would tell this
775
00:42:50.230 --> 00:42:52.750
story in a bar. And that's what I did.
776
00:42:52.889 --> 00:42:56.889
You make it sound so easy and so accessible. And
777
00:42:57.230 --> 00:42:59.449
I love that because it is none of those things.
778
00:42:59.989 --> 00:43:02.139
But at the same time, actually, it is.
779
00:43:02.219 --> 00:43:05.579
It is. It is and it can be. I think
780
00:43:05.619 --> 00:43:07.239
sometimes those of us who.
781
00:43:07.500 --> 00:43:11.199
Teach writing and teach the analysis of writing, I think
782
00:43:11.260 --> 00:43:14.719
we tend to overcomplicate things. People joke that English teachers
783
00:43:14.820 --> 00:43:17.119
can't just let the color of the curtains be what
784
00:43:17.159 --> 00:43:19.610
the color of the curtains is. We always say there's
785
00:43:19.630 --> 00:43:22.590
some symbolism behind it. And sometimes that's just the color
786
00:43:22.610 --> 00:43:23.269
of the curtains.
787
00:43:24.269 --> 00:43:24.949
We are that way.
788
00:43:24.989 --> 00:43:26.710
And I think a lot of times I'm that way
789
00:43:26.730 --> 00:43:30.170
too with my writing. So I love knowing that you
790
00:43:30.210 --> 00:43:32.030
can just, okay, do it for 20 minutes.
791
00:43:32.369 --> 00:43:35.630
Do it for 20 minutes. Just run. Carve out the
792
00:43:35.670 --> 00:43:38.530
same amount of time. You're going to run for 45 minutes. Okay,
793
00:43:38.610 --> 00:43:40.849
I'm going to write for 45 minutes. One day you
794
00:43:40.869 --> 00:43:42.909
may run for 20 minutes. Okay, I'm going to write
795
00:43:42.929 --> 00:43:45.789
for 20 minutes. Then you may do a half marathon. Okay,
796
00:43:45.829 --> 00:43:47.969
I've got to write for two hours and 15 minutes.
797
00:43:48.650 --> 00:43:49.809
And you can make it that.
798
00:43:50.420 --> 00:43:52.119
And rules advice.
799
00:43:52.639 --> 00:43:55.579
With the summers, I would just caution you too. You
800
00:43:55.639 --> 00:44:00.360
don't have to write war and peace. You don't. It
801
00:44:00.400 --> 00:44:03.380
can be what you need it to be. Because again,
802
00:44:04.059 --> 00:44:08.239
I'm not a writer. Like our friend, Catherine Ramsland, God
803
00:44:08.280 --> 00:44:11.590
love her. There ain't 70 books in me, babe.
804
00:44:11.610 --> 00:44:14.849
I don't think.
805
00:44:14.230 --> 00:44:18.909
There's 70 books in anybody. I don't know how Catherine
806
00:44:18.929 --> 00:44:19.250
does it.
807
00:44:19.929 --> 00:44:22.889
She's a powerhouse and she's a genius, but I'm saying
808
00:44:23.320 --> 00:44:27.440
those are different. And so I thought, again, I can
809
00:44:27.500 --> 00:44:30.179
tell this story. You get up and talk every day
810
00:44:30.260 --> 00:44:32.980
and convey all these things to these children. Yes, you
811
00:44:33.000 --> 00:44:35.639
can do it. Absolutely, you can do it. And this
812
00:44:35.679 --> 00:44:37.699
time next year at CrimeCon, we're going to roll your
813
00:44:37.719 --> 00:44:38.920
book out. So let's go.
814
00:44:40.039 --> 00:44:43.130
All right, you got it. The book is called Swans
815
00:44:43.170 --> 00:44:45.590
Don't Swim in a Sewer. Mac, where can everybody find
816
00:44:45.630 --> 00:44:47.190
the book out today?
817
00:44:47.909 --> 00:44:51.750
Amazon, Barnes & Noble, Target, Walmart, anywhere you would get
818
00:44:51.789 --> 00:44:54.030
your book. Books a million, anywhere.
819
00:44:55.190 --> 00:44:58.869
We're so proud of you. We're so proud of you.
820
00:44:58.949 --> 00:45:01.909
With my whole entire heart and soul, I'm so proud
821
00:45:01.949 --> 00:45:02.179
of you.
822
00:45:02.360 --> 00:45:04.699
But the deal is, and I keep saying it, I'm
823
00:45:04.719 --> 00:45:07.199
going to keep saying it, this is an us thing.
824
00:45:07.719 --> 00:45:10.889
I had questions for you. I've talked to Bill. I've
825
00:45:10.929 --> 00:45:13.710
talked to Nancy. I've talked to Maureen O'Connell. I've talked
826
00:45:13.730 --> 00:45:18.869
to all these people, y'all. Barbara Butcher. Every person has
827
00:45:18.889 --> 00:45:22.550
had such great advice. Joe Scott Morgan. That child has
828
00:45:22.590 --> 00:45:28.570
been on the phone with me. Saying, hey, don't forget this.
829
00:45:28.909 --> 00:45:32.070
We clued that. And it's just, you wouldn't know it otherwise.
830
00:45:32.309 --> 00:45:34.650
When I look at that book, I see all of y'all.
831
00:45:35.179 --> 00:45:37.900
So it's a wonderful thing for me. And again, I
832
00:45:37.940 --> 00:45:41.099
hope Huck and Caroline at some time can maybe flip
833
00:45:41.139 --> 00:45:43.300
back through it and go, hey, that's pretty cool how
834
00:45:43.340 --> 00:45:43.639
she did.
835
00:45:44.480 --> 00:45:46.679
The book is Swans Don't Swim in a Sewer by
836
00:45:46.760 --> 00:45:49.079
Cheryl Mack McCollum, available today.
837
00:45:49.300 --> 00:45:52.099
Mack, thank you for joining us today. Thank y'all so much.
838
00:45:52.139 --> 00:45:54.119
And I'll see you in two weeks, Bill. And Kristen,
839
00:45:54.139 --> 00:45:55.500
I'm going to have you on FaceTime.
840
00:45:56.219 --> 00:45:56.800
Please do.
841
00:45:57.199 --> 00:45:59.019
That is going to do it for this episode of
842
00:45:59.059 --> 00:46:02.659
Mind Over Murder. Thank you so much for listening. We'll
843
00:46:02.679 --> 00:46:03.460
see you next time.
844
00:46:13.340 --> 00:46:16.940
Mind Over Murder is a production of Absolute Zero and
845
00:46:16.980 --> 00:46:18.340
Another Dog Productions.
846
00:46:19.019 --> 00:46:22.300
Our executive producers are Bill Thomas and Kristen Dilley.
847
00:46:22.679 --> 00:46:25.079
Our logo art is by Pamela Arnois.
848
00:46:25.760 --> 00:46:27.719
Our theme music is by Kevin MacLeod.
849
00:46:28.320 --> 00:46:32.239
Mind Over Murder is distributed in partnership with Crawl Space Media.
850
00:46:32.980 --> 00:46:36.099
You can follow us on Facebook, Twitter, or Instagram.
851
00:46:36.320 --> 00:46:38.900
You can also follow our page on the Colonial Parkway
852
00:46:38.940 --> 00:46:40.139
Murders on Facebook.
853
00:46:40.619 --> 00:46:44.889
And finally, you can follow Bill Thomas on Twitter at BillThomas56.
854
00:46:45.789 --> 00:46:48.670
Thank you for listening to Mind Over Murder.