Episode 431: Agent Governance Is the New App Governance

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- Welcome to episode 431
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- of the Microsoft Cloud IT Pro podcast recorded
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- live on 06/26/2026.
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- This is a show about Microsoft three sixty
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- five and Azure from the perspective of IT
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- pros and end users, where we discuss the
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- topic or recent news and how it relates
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- to you. In this episode, Ben and Scott
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- get into why agent governance is quickly becoming
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- one of the most pressing challenges for Microsoft
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- three sixty five administrators,
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- As agentic workflows become more common across Copilot,
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- Copilot Studio, and third party platforms,
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- organizations are dealing with a sprawl problem that
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- looks familiar but hits differently. Let's dive in
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- as we talk about Copilot agents and the
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- similarities and differences to enterprise apps.
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- Can I give you a quick rant? I
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- don't know. Is it gonna make me start
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- ranting? Is this gonna be the episode where
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- Scott rants and Ben gets ranting? Alright. What's
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- your rant? I happen to have an email
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- address, an Outlook dot com email address that
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- is a very short
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- handle, and it's a very common thing.
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- But it's kinda like a a vanity handle.
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- Whatever. But it would be something that's pretty
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- common,
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- especially
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- if your name was Scott and your last
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- initial started with an h.
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- So
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- I have this thing
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- where
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- I don't understand
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- why
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- people
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- use this email address, which is my email
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- address, to be very clear. Like, it's all
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- locked down to me. I've got all my
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- YubiKeys,
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- authenticator.
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- Like, I closely monitor the logins because I
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- do get these weird, like, who somebody's trying
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- to log in to your account kinds of
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- things, right, with password sprays and everything like
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- that. But so so it's a real email
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- address. I use it. Like, it's a real
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- email address. Unfortunately,
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- I have this issue where other people
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- are also using it as a real email
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- address. Like, I had somebody the other day
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- went and signed up for a Walmart account.
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- So they signed up for a Walmart account.
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- Somehow, they were able to sign up for
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- a Walmart account, authenticate with their phone number
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- to that, like, they didn't need to get,
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- like, the access code out of email or
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- things like that. And then now they've got
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- a Walmart account, and they're making purchases on
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- it. And I'm getting, like, the invoices and
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- the receipts.
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- Normally, what I can do is when I
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- get these kinds of things, I go and
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- I
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- I say, hey. I forgot my password, and
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- I request the account to be deleted, or
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- I just change the password to something that's,
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- like, black holes. Like, I'm not a smart
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- person and use somebody else's email address to
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- sign up for this account. Like like, it's
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- just this big long string that can be
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- crammed in there. But the problem I'm running
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- into lately is there are sites like Walmart.
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- I've got PayPal kicking around, a couple of
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- banks that people have signed up for, like,
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- stuff that I should not be getting. Right?
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- So but I can't go in, and I
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- can't request the deletion of the account. So,
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- like, Walmart, you go in and you say,
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- hey. Here's my email address. Send me a
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- code. It says, great. I sent you a
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- code, but you have to authenticate with your
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- phone. Well, I don't have my phone. Right?
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- Because it's not my phone. It's somebody else's
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- somebody else's phone that that put in there.
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- So I have this email address that more
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- and more, I cannot use for anything personal
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- because there's so many other people in the
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- world with the same first name and last
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- initial
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- that are using it for all their stuff
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- and getting it pushed through. I I have,
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- like, Walmart account, bank accounts.
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- I have a PayPal account in The UK
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- that somebody signed up for, like, can't get
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- into. I had this week, somebody did Instacart,
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- and another person did Grubhub and signed up
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- for Grubhub Plus. Cool.
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- It's
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- really weird.
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- And I would understand, like, common email address,
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- like,
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- first, last initial, blah blah blah. Like, somebody's
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- just pumping it in to
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- sign in to Wi Fi somewhere randomly. Right?
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- And they don't care and, like, hey. I'll
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- go spam this other person kinda thing. But
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- these are, like, legit
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- accounts. These are legitimate
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- things. People are buying stuff. They're getting bank
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- accounts.
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- There's some guy in Iowa
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- who runs an entire survey business, and I'm
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- getting all his invoices
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- and all the surveys
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- that he's, like, sending back and forth to
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- the companies that he's working with. Like, I
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- don't understand
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- how
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- this is the state of the world. It's
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- so strange to me. You said you weren't
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- gonna get me ranting, but this is gonna
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- be an interesting one, I think, that's going
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- to come up. Not because part you mentioned
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- it in here. It was like a sub
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- bullet of what you said when you talked
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- about you needed your phone for authentication.
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- Is
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- my problem is I have password less set
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- up a lot of my accounts because I
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- don't wanna type in a password. And I'm
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- curious if you start seeing this. The amount
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- of prompts
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- that I get an authenticator
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- because
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- and I've had a client that had this
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- too with one of their email accounts because
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- nobody needs a password because it relies on
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- the push notification.
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- I get, like, I get spammed with authenticator
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- requests, and it's not approve or deny.
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- It's number matching once. And I'm like, okay.
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- I don't think this was me. Sometimes it's
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- close to the same time I do it.
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- But now I started seeing it's, like, from
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- Germany, and it's from The US, and it's
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- from here, and it's from there as and
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- there's no way to stop it. Like, I
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- can't go change a password. I can't go
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- change my authenticator
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- app. Like, in this world of passwordless,
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- I feel like these authenticator
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- spamming
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- number matching things
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- are just going to get annoying. Like They
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- are very annoying. So so I have the
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- same problem, again, on my Outlook account, but
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- mine aren't number matches.
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- So the problem is the way Microsoft does
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- it, e even if somebody happens to find
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- a way in, like, Microsoft's rationale is, like,
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- hey. We're still sending you the note the
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- push notification. Right? So, therefore, it's up to
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- you to approve or deny. But I don't
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- know if the push notification
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- like, I know which ones are from me
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- in the moment as a number match. Like,
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- that's very clear. Yep. You might have something
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- in the background. So, like, for example, for
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- me, I sign into my outlook.com
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- account through Outlook on my desktop. Makes sense.
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- Right? It might be Outlook just trying to
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- reauthenticate. It might be my iPhone trying to
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- reauthenticate. It might be my tablet or another
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- computer. Like, could be some service I signed
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- up for, and I gave permission
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- to read my But you don't know what
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- it is, and
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- Microsoft
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- in they they used to publish all the
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- security information. So you could go in and
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- you go to, like, account.microsoft,
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- and you could see all the sign ins,
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- and you could see where they were coming
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- from. That got so noisy that they stopped
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- publishing those. So now I get all these
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- push notifications.
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- I get all these authenticator prompts, and I
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- have no
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- way to even know where they're coming from.
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- Like, I don't even know if they're coming
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- from Russia or China or The United States
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- or anything else anywhere. Because, like, I'll I'll
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- tell you, like, if I go and look
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- I was just doing this before I hopped
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- on because I was trying to clean up
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- some of these emails out of that mailbox.
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- So I went and looked. The only login
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- that shows up in when I go to
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- account.microsoft.com
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- for that
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- Microsoft account, the only login that I see
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- is one login from today. Okay. I authenticate
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- to that account a ton of times today
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- and from my iPhone. And so, like, my
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- iPhone's running Defender,
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- and I have a VPN client on there.
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- So, theoretically, my iPhone should be showing up
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- as a separate login, like, being routed through,
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- like, Defender and, like, Seattle where the VPN
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- location is. Or if I hop on to
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- Tailscale and I happen to have an exit
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- node in another location,
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- shouldn't, like, the login thing when I get
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- reprompted for auths, shouldn't it show me that
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- I relogged in from a new location? Like,
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- they they just, like, masked all that information
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- and hid it away. I think it was
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- I get why it was noise for customers.
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- I bet it was a ton of telemetry
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- for them to collect as well and have
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- to kinda store and push out and surface
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- and query and
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- and all those kinds of things. But in
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- this world of, like, passwordless,
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- you tie a phone number to your account,
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- it's no longer
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- just a password kinda thing. It is it's
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- rough, especially when, at least in my case,
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- for people who haven't gone through this, it
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- stinks when somebody else is using your email
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- address. It's really annoying. Thanks for that because
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- I thought I was going crazy because I
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- did the same thing. When I started getting
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- error as I've been getting all these random
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- prompts, I wanted to go see, like, where
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- are they coming from? Is there any way
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- I can report these? And I had the
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- same thing. I'm like, I thought I used
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- to see all the login attempts, and now
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- I don't see anything. And I was like,
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- maybe I was getting entry confused with my
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- personal account, but they did used to have
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- that, and they took it away. They very
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- much cut it back,
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- and they removed a bunch of controls there.
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- Like, they used to have stuff for, like,
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- reporting things Yep. And all that. So it's
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- down to the point now where even if
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- you go into the docs for, like, reading
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- about, like, what recent activity is,
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- they go so far as to say, if
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- you get an email about unusual activity and
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- you're not sure
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- if it's from Microsoft, just go ahead and,
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- like, sign into your account. And even if
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- you get one about unusual activity that is
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- from Microsoft, when you sign into your account,
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- the detail's not there. There there is no
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00:09:09.095 --> 00:09:11.659
- detail there. It's just it is completely
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- opaque. I I don't know how they could
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00:09:15.480 --> 00:09:17.559
- make it better versus going back to the
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00:09:17.559 --> 00:09:19.559
- way it used to be. Like, show me
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00:09:19.559 --> 00:09:21.339
- every time you send me a push notification,
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- show me why. Like like, give me a
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- little bit of insight into where that was
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- coming from. Like, because if I could even
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- see, like, a user agent string and a
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- timestamp, like, if I could see, like, oh,
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- that was Outlook from macOS
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- at 03:25PM
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- on Friday. Oh, that was me. Like, I
274
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- was just in Outlook.
275
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- And, oh, yeah. I did get a little
276
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- error pop up or things like that. So
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- yeah.
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- Any anyhoo, that that's my rant. Somebody else
279
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- having your email address sucks.
280
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- Passwordless
281
00:09:50.519 --> 00:09:51.019
- is
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- super annoying in a world of opaqueness.
283
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- I think you should like, I think the
284
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- vendor should air on on on the side
285
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- of verbosity
286
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- and let folks know, but, unfortunately,
287
00:10:01.134 --> 00:10:03.075
- they do not do that. Yes. And report,
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- like, if I report that I'm not logging
289
00:10:05.470 --> 00:10:08.350
- in from this particular one, I'm surprised how
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00:10:08.350 --> 00:10:10.429
- many keep coming through that appear to be
291
00:10:10.429 --> 00:10:12.269
- coming from the same location. Mhmm. And I
292
00:10:12.269 --> 00:10:14.129
- don't know how you get around it. Because,
293
00:10:14.269 --> 00:10:15.870
- ideally, I would say, you know what? I'm
294
00:10:15.870 --> 00:10:17.710
- not in Germany, and, frankly, I'm not in
295
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- any country but The US. Any push notification
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00:10:20.544 --> 00:10:22.384
- from anything other than The US should be
297
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- denied. Now if I travel,
298
00:10:24.465 --> 00:10:26.144
- I'd want a way to open that back
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- up. But for now, like, I should not
300
00:10:29.345 --> 00:10:31.264
- even be having to deal with those push
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- notifications.
302
00:10:32.149 --> 00:10:34.809
- It's interesting. It's weird. Actually, for my Microsoft
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- account,
304
00:10:35.990 --> 00:10:37.769
- I think I'm at the point where, like,
305
00:10:37.830 --> 00:10:39.669
- at least for my consumer account because of,
306
00:10:39.669 --> 00:10:41.029
- like, the state it's in. I was gonna
307
00:10:41.029 --> 00:10:42.870
- say consumer accounts is where I have this
308
00:10:42.870 --> 00:10:45.350
- problem more than my business one. Definitely the
309
00:10:45.350 --> 00:10:48.004
- most there. But for that, I would actually
310
00:10:48.004 --> 00:10:49.945
- prefer to be able to turn off authenticator.
311
00:10:50.485 --> 00:10:52.584
- Like, if I have another passwordless
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00:10:52.884 --> 00:10:53.384
- mechanism,
313
00:10:53.845 --> 00:10:56.964
- so if I've got biometrics just through my
314
00:10:56.964 --> 00:10:58.024
- phone with a passkey
315
00:10:58.404 --> 00:11:00.565
- or I have a YubiKey or something, give
316
00:11:00.565 --> 00:11:02.509
- me the option to turn off authenticator.
317
00:11:02.889 --> 00:11:04.889
- You let me turn off my phone, like,
318
00:11:04.889 --> 00:11:06.350
- my phone number and OTP.
319
00:11:06.730 --> 00:11:09.870
- Let me turn off authenticator. Like, don't force
320
00:11:10.330 --> 00:11:12.830
- I'm sorry. Like, that piece of garbage application,
321
00:11:13.129 --> 00:11:15.875
- like, at down my throat and make it
322
00:11:15.875 --> 00:11:17.815
- the only the only pass in.
323
00:11:19.235 --> 00:11:22.215
- If you're managing file storage today, you've probably
324
00:11:22.274 --> 00:11:24.995
- felt the pressure. Refresh cycles are harder to
325
00:11:24.995 --> 00:11:28.399
- plan, costs and complexity are increasing, especially as
326
00:11:28.399 --> 00:11:32.019
- file workloads scale across regions. That's why Microsoft
327
00:11:32.159 --> 00:11:35.779
- customers trust Nasuni. As an Azure certified software,
328
00:11:36.159 --> 00:11:39.120
- Nasuni provides a global file system designed for
329
00:11:39.120 --> 00:11:40.365
- enterprise scale environments,
330
00:11:40.825 --> 00:11:44.264
- keeping file data secure, governed, and accessible across
331
00:11:44.264 --> 00:11:47.404
- Azure environments without added infrastructure complexity.
332
00:11:47.785 --> 00:11:50.985
- It's the foundation to keep your unstructured data
333
00:11:50.985 --> 00:11:54.279
- stable even as your infrastructure evolves. To see
334
00:11:54.279 --> 00:11:56.279
- how much you could save while keeping your
335
00:11:56.279 --> 00:12:01.879
- initiatives on track, visit nasuni.com/tco.
336
00:12:01.879 --> 00:12:06.540
- That's nasuni.com/tco.
337
00:12:07.480 --> 00:12:08.884
- You know what else people are having to
338
00:12:08.884 --> 00:12:11.865
- deal with, Scott, in managing outside of authentication
339
00:12:12.004 --> 00:12:13.845
- requests? This was such a good transition to
340
00:12:13.845 --> 00:12:15.365
- our main topic for the day. It was.
341
00:12:15.365 --> 00:12:16.105
- Good job.
342
00:12:16.804 --> 00:12:20.664
- And agents. Agents are everywhere. Agents are everywhere.
343
00:12:20.725 --> 00:12:22.644
- So this is an interesting one. Like like,
344
00:12:22.644 --> 00:12:23.625
- my day job,
345
00:12:24.240 --> 00:12:25.540
- I think a lot about
346
00:12:26.240 --> 00:12:28.019
- SDKs and rest APIs
347
00:12:28.960 --> 00:12:31.040
- and things like that. And even in, like,
348
00:12:31.040 --> 00:12:32.720
- my day job, I spend more and more
349
00:12:32.720 --> 00:12:35.840
- of my time thinking about how agents interact
350
00:12:35.840 --> 00:12:38.399
- with those things over humans as more and
351
00:12:38.399 --> 00:12:41.735
- more stuff gets handed off. And I'm definitely,
352
00:12:41.794 --> 00:12:43.394
- like, in that ecosystem. I think you're in
353
00:12:43.394 --> 00:12:46.274
- that ecosystem as well, kind of being tied
354
00:12:46.274 --> 00:12:49.794
- into even just, like, generic Microsoft three sixty
355
00:12:49.794 --> 00:12:51.634
- five. So if I'm just in Microsoft three
356
00:12:51.634 --> 00:12:53.699
- sixty five, let's say Copilot, I've got a
357
00:12:53.699 --> 00:12:56.500
- researcher agent. I've got an analyst agent. I
358
00:12:56.500 --> 00:12:57.480
- can connect to
359
00:12:57.860 --> 00:13:01.079
- to SAP. I can connect to consumer services
360
00:13:01.220 --> 00:13:02.120
- like Canva,
361
00:13:02.659 --> 00:13:05.834
- all these different things. And now that Cowork
362
00:13:05.834 --> 00:13:07.434
- has g eight, I think you start to
363
00:13:07.434 --> 00:13:07.934
- see
364
00:13:08.315 --> 00:13:10.495
- a a little bit more probably usage
365
00:13:10.875 --> 00:13:14.815
- and uptick there. It's becoming, like, more prolific,
366
00:13:14.954 --> 00:13:16.254
- I think, to see
367
00:13:16.875 --> 00:13:18.014
- agentic workflows,
368
00:13:18.394 --> 00:13:21.490
- whether those are, like, true, like, bounded agents,
369
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- they're just kind of fluffy declarative agents in
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- m three sixty five Copilot, whatever happens to
371
00:13:26.590 --> 00:13:28.610
- be, but agentic workflows
372
00:13:29.309 --> 00:13:29.809
- augmenting
373
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- more and more of just the day to
374
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- day of what's going on there. So that
375
00:13:34.845 --> 00:13:37.424
- raises an interesting question. In a world of
376
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- agents
377
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- and likely more agents than humans that are
378
00:13:42.284 --> 00:13:45.085
- in your organization because there's an amplification factor
379
00:13:45.085 --> 00:13:47.424
- of I'm one person, and I might use
380
00:13:47.589 --> 00:13:48.409
- 20 agents.
381
00:13:48.789 --> 00:13:50.870
- How do you kinda know what's going on
382
00:13:50.870 --> 00:13:53.049
- out there? How do you monitor?
383
00:13:53.429 --> 00:13:55.589
- How do you respond? And I think, largely,
384
00:13:55.589 --> 00:13:57.269
- like, there's an argument to be made to
385
00:13:57.269 --> 00:13:58.169
- say is that
386
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- agentic governance or agent governance
387
00:14:01.669 --> 00:14:02.169
- is
388
00:14:02.855 --> 00:14:03.514
- the new
389
00:14:03.975 --> 00:14:06.855
- application governance space. So much like you might
390
00:14:06.855 --> 00:14:09.514
- have been in, like, a world of MAM
391
00:14:09.894 --> 00:14:11.194
- and managing to the applications
392
00:14:11.495 --> 00:14:13.735
- that your users could use, now you're in
393
00:14:13.735 --> 00:14:15.334
- the world of agents, and you also have
394
00:14:15.334 --> 00:14:18.120
- to manage to the agents that your users
395
00:14:18.120 --> 00:14:19.879
- can use. Or maybe you're in a fully
396
00:14:19.879 --> 00:14:22.940
- ungated world, and you don't know what agents
397
00:14:23.080 --> 00:14:24.299
- your users
398
00:14:25.000 --> 00:14:27.080
- are using out there. And it's such a
399
00:14:27.080 --> 00:14:27.980
- wide landscape
400
00:14:28.600 --> 00:14:32.435
- and wide surface area for agents between Microsoft
401
00:14:32.435 --> 00:14:33.654
- three sixty five Copilot.
402
00:14:34.115 --> 00:14:35.495
- You got Copilot Studio.
403
00:14:35.955 --> 00:14:38.055
- There's the whole just broader
404
00:14:38.754 --> 00:14:39.254
- Microsoft
405
00:14:39.555 --> 00:14:40.855
- security stack,
406
00:14:41.235 --> 00:14:43.154
- and you kinda gotta get out there and
407
00:14:43.154 --> 00:14:44.295
- find a way to
408
00:14:45.154 --> 00:14:46.375
- govern agents
409
00:14:46.679 --> 00:14:49.100
- either as applications or as,
410
00:14:49.399 --> 00:14:51.179
- I guess, artifacts of your enterprise
411
00:14:51.559 --> 00:14:53.419
- and kinda part of your
412
00:14:53.720 --> 00:14:56.919
- core business. It's interesting because I in some
413
00:14:56.919 --> 00:14:59.659
- respects, I always thought about agent governance as
414
00:14:59.995 --> 00:15:00.495
- also
415
00:15:01.035 --> 00:15:01.774
- the new
416
00:15:02.235 --> 00:15:03.615
- almost people governance
417
00:15:04.075 --> 00:15:06.315
- to your point, but agents are also apps
418
00:15:06.315 --> 00:15:08.654
- and agents have to deal with sprawl. It's
419
00:15:08.955 --> 00:15:12.235
- governing agents is turning into I feel like
420
00:15:12.235 --> 00:15:13.754
- a massive thing. Because to your point with
421
00:15:13.754 --> 00:15:15.980
- apps, you have, like, who can access this
422
00:15:15.980 --> 00:15:18.139
- agent? Kinda like you'd have to manage apps.
423
00:15:18.139 --> 00:15:20.460
- Who can log into it? What can they
424
00:15:20.460 --> 00:15:22.539
- do with this agent? But then you also
425
00:15:22.539 --> 00:15:23.679
- have agents running
426
00:15:24.059 --> 00:15:26.299
- similar to people where it's the data issue
427
00:15:26.299 --> 00:15:28.779
- is what data can these agents access and
428
00:15:28.779 --> 00:15:30.865
- which agents can access which data, and how
429
00:15:30.865 --> 00:15:32.945
- do you protect data from agents. And then
430
00:15:32.945 --> 00:15:33.684
- you have
431
00:15:34.144 --> 00:15:37.024
- the sprawl aspect of it of, again, people
432
00:15:37.024 --> 00:15:39.365
- just going out and adding agents, and
433
00:15:39.825 --> 00:15:42.804
- you have, like, ghost agents now. The whole
434
00:15:43.184 --> 00:15:45.419
- in some respects, it's I would say it's
435
00:15:45.579 --> 00:15:48.079
- turning into the one of the more complicated
436
00:15:48.379 --> 00:15:51.600
- things to govern because there's so many different
437
00:15:51.980 --> 00:15:54.139
- aspects to it in terms of what agents
438
00:15:54.139 --> 00:15:56.059
- can do and how people access them and
439
00:15:56.059 --> 00:15:58.700
- how they do things and even how agents
440
00:15:58.700 --> 00:16:01.254
- manage agents. You're getting into these things now
441
00:16:01.254 --> 00:16:03.595
- where you have agent orchestrators that manage
442
00:16:03.975 --> 00:16:04.715
- sub agents.
443
00:16:05.735 --> 00:16:08.134
- And agent governance, I feel like, is it's
444
00:16:08.134 --> 00:16:09.815
- already started, but I feel like it's just
445
00:16:09.815 --> 00:16:11.595
- gonna continue to explode
446
00:16:12.455 --> 00:16:15.039
- over the next, I don't know, months, years
447
00:16:15.340 --> 00:16:17.019
- as you try to figure out how to
448
00:16:17.019 --> 00:16:19.120
- govern this? So it's a very broad area.
449
00:16:19.259 --> 00:16:22.639
- I think in and it's not probably unfamiliar
450
00:16:22.700 --> 00:16:25.519
- to most administrators. Like, you're used to governing
451
00:16:25.659 --> 00:16:28.725
- specific aspects of your platform. So let's say
452
00:16:28.725 --> 00:16:30.424
- maybe, like, app consent.
453
00:16:30.804 --> 00:16:32.725
- Hey. I created a new I needed a
454
00:16:32.725 --> 00:16:35.684
- new enterprise app registration created that that came
455
00:16:35.684 --> 00:16:37.764
- with an owner, came with a specific set
456
00:16:37.764 --> 00:16:38.424
- of permissions
457
00:16:39.044 --> 00:16:41.044
- on the graph, things like that. Maybe you
458
00:16:41.044 --> 00:16:43.169
- had a Teams app, again that had its
459
00:16:43.169 --> 00:16:46.049
- own kind of construct. You had SharePoint that
460
00:16:46.049 --> 00:16:48.129
- had its own construct. So we're very used
461
00:16:48.129 --> 00:16:50.470
- to dealing with the individual constructs,
462
00:16:51.009 --> 00:16:53.970
- but when they start to get mishmashed into
463
00:16:53.970 --> 00:16:54.789
- this one
464
00:16:55.184 --> 00:16:57.504
- broader bucket, which has a whole bunch of
465
00:16:57.504 --> 00:16:58.325
- different subcomponents,
466
00:16:58.785 --> 00:16:59.524
- it becomes
467
00:17:00.225 --> 00:17:02.304
- really hard. And I think this is where,
468
00:17:02.304 --> 00:17:04.224
- like, Microsoft comes in with things like Agent
469
00:17:04.224 --> 00:17:06.224
- three sixty five and says, hey. You need
470
00:17:06.224 --> 00:17:09.025
- more of a control plane here for agents
471
00:17:09.025 --> 00:17:10.579
- because it's an identity
472
00:17:10.960 --> 00:17:13.200
- problem. So it's not just who is the
473
00:17:13.200 --> 00:17:16.079
- agent, it's who and or what is the
474
00:17:16.079 --> 00:17:19.059
- agent. Like, who created it is one question.
475
00:17:19.359 --> 00:17:21.279
- Who can use it or who consume it
476
00:17:21.279 --> 00:17:24.184
- is another question. What permissions does it have?
477
00:17:24.184 --> 00:17:26.684
- Does it have different permissions and different modes?
478
00:17:26.985 --> 00:17:29.465
- K. That that that's just identity. Right? You
479
00:17:29.465 --> 00:17:31.164
- have five questions right there.
480
00:17:31.625 --> 00:17:32.605
- You've got this
481
00:17:33.065 --> 00:17:34.765
- data access issue
482
00:17:35.065 --> 00:17:35.884
- or kinda
483
00:17:36.190 --> 00:17:37.789
- lack of visibility or something that you need
484
00:17:37.789 --> 00:17:39.009
- to kinda figure out is,
485
00:17:39.309 --> 00:17:42.130
- what's the data that these agents can retrieve?
486
00:17:42.430 --> 00:17:43.789
- What are they allowed to do with that
487
00:17:43.789 --> 00:17:45.789
- data? Do they transform it? Do they pass
488
00:17:45.789 --> 00:17:47.970
- it on to another agent or another process?
489
00:17:48.125 --> 00:17:50.765
- Are they just summarizing it? Like, when they
490
00:17:50.765 --> 00:17:51.984
- go and do the retrieval,
491
00:17:52.285 --> 00:17:54.205
- let's say you retrieved a bunch of sensitive
492
00:17:54.205 --> 00:17:56.445
- business data, and then you're telling that agent
493
00:17:56.445 --> 00:17:58.924
- to summarize it in a table. Well, it
494
00:17:58.924 --> 00:18:01.164
- might be interacting with, like, an LLM, so
495
00:18:01.164 --> 00:18:02.820
- it could be chat GPT
496
00:18:03.519 --> 00:18:06.240
- or an anthropic model or deep seek or
497
00:18:06.240 --> 00:18:06.740
- whatever
498
00:18:07.200 --> 00:18:08.559
- out out on the sides. Now you gotta
499
00:18:08.559 --> 00:18:11.279
- worry about not only what data it can
500
00:18:11.279 --> 00:18:12.880
- retrieve, what it can summarize, what it can
501
00:18:12.880 --> 00:18:14.640
- transform, but you also have to worry about
502
00:18:14.640 --> 00:18:16.595
- leaks, like like, pretty big.
503
00:18:16.974 --> 00:18:18.434
- You have an application problem
504
00:18:18.815 --> 00:18:21.954
- because you don't always have visibility into
505
00:18:22.255 --> 00:18:24.095
- not only, like, what are the connectors and
506
00:18:24.095 --> 00:18:26.815
- tools and actions that these agents use, but,
507
00:18:26.815 --> 00:18:28.434
- also, like, what are the raw APIs?
508
00:18:28.900 --> 00:18:31.299
- I've seen some things when I'm interacting with
509
00:18:31.299 --> 00:18:33.700
- them because the LLM guides them into it.
510
00:18:33.700 --> 00:18:35.460
- They'll say like, oh, hey. I don't see
511
00:18:35.460 --> 00:18:36.900
- a tool for blah blah blah, but I
512
00:18:36.900 --> 00:18:38.660
- read the documentation for this thing, and I
513
00:18:38.660 --> 00:18:40.339
- think it's got a REST API. I'm just
514
00:18:40.339 --> 00:18:41.775
- gonna, like, go wild and
515
00:18:42.255 --> 00:18:43.295
- see what I can get out of it
516
00:18:43.295 --> 00:18:45.214
- with, like, an external service call. And, again,
517
00:18:45.214 --> 00:18:47.295
- you're back to data leaks, all that kind
518
00:18:47.295 --> 00:18:49.955
- of stuff. You've got a life cycle problem.
519
00:18:50.174 --> 00:18:50.674
- So
520
00:18:51.134 --> 00:18:53.134
- we had the identity problem of, like, who
521
00:18:53.134 --> 00:18:54.880
- created it, who can use it. There's also
522
00:18:54.880 --> 00:18:57.599
- a life cycle problem in who approves it,
523
00:18:57.599 --> 00:18:59.460
- who owns it, like, how do you attribute
524
00:18:59.599 --> 00:19:01.460
- ownership to an agent,
525
00:19:02.160 --> 00:19:04.579
- when and or if should it be retired,
526
00:19:05.119 --> 00:19:06.960
- what happens when the person who made the
527
00:19:06.960 --> 00:19:08.755
- agent, like, if it's a custom agent, what
528
00:19:08.755 --> 00:19:10.755
- happens when they leave your organization? That's a
529
00:19:10.755 --> 00:19:13.315
- big problem with things like power automate flows
530
00:19:13.315 --> 00:19:15.554
- and everything else that's out there, but that
531
00:19:15.554 --> 00:19:17.394
- was just a single space. Now you're in
532
00:19:17.394 --> 00:19:19.394
- a multispace kinda thing. And then there's just
533
00:19:19.394 --> 00:19:21.095
- all the security stuff. So
534
00:19:21.474 --> 00:19:23.494
- bad actors, malicious prompts,
535
00:19:24.160 --> 00:19:24.980
- prompt injection,
536
00:19:25.839 --> 00:19:26.900
- risky connectors,
537
00:19:29.359 --> 00:19:32.240
- maybe there's, like, a mismatch in privileges and
538
00:19:32.240 --> 00:19:34.160
- configuration of an agent, so you get this,
539
00:19:34.160 --> 00:19:35.380
- like, creep aspect
540
00:19:35.680 --> 00:19:37.680
- that goes in there. So so it's really
541
00:19:37.680 --> 00:19:38.579
- hard because
542
00:19:39.115 --> 00:19:39.775
- the question,
543
00:19:40.394 --> 00:19:42.394
- I think, used to be, like, what are
544
00:19:42.394 --> 00:19:45.034
- the apps that have access to my tenant?
545
00:19:45.034 --> 00:19:46.974
- And you could kinda go scope that down,
546
00:19:47.115 --> 00:19:48.174
- and you could run-in,
547
00:19:48.634 --> 00:19:50.714
- and you could start to wrap your head
548
00:19:50.714 --> 00:19:51.534
- around that.
549
00:19:51.839 --> 00:19:53.299
- But now the question
550
00:19:53.599 --> 00:19:54.099
- is
551
00:19:54.640 --> 00:19:56.740
- really different for administrators
552
00:19:57.279 --> 00:19:59.299
- in these environments where you have to ask
553
00:19:59.519 --> 00:20:01.440
- not only what are the apps, but now
554
00:20:01.440 --> 00:20:02.339
- it shifts to
555
00:20:02.640 --> 00:20:03.380
- what agents
556
00:20:03.934 --> 00:20:07.315
- can access my tenant, what agents can act
557
00:20:07.454 --> 00:20:09.934
- across my tenant. So it's not just about
558
00:20:09.934 --> 00:20:11.694
- access in a single area, but it's also
559
00:20:11.694 --> 00:20:14.494
- about, like, across the spread of tools, Teams,
560
00:20:14.494 --> 00:20:14.994
- SharePoint,
561
00:20:15.775 --> 00:20:18.390
- Exchange, all those things. What are the tools
562
00:20:18.390 --> 00:20:21.029
- they expose? What are the tools they actually
563
00:20:21.029 --> 00:20:21.529
- use?
564
00:20:21.990 --> 00:20:24.549
- And what's the business data that they have
565
00:20:24.549 --> 00:20:26.730
- access to and that they can
566
00:20:27.269 --> 00:20:29.590
- reason over? So it just makes it so
567
00:20:29.590 --> 00:20:31.774
- much more of, like, a heady thing. I
568
00:20:31.774 --> 00:20:34.654
- think Microsoft is approaching this in a manner
569
00:20:34.654 --> 00:20:37.794
- of saying, hey. We have things like Microsoft
570
00:20:37.934 --> 00:20:40.575
- Agent three sixty five, which start to lay
571
00:20:40.575 --> 00:20:41.154
- a groundwork
572
00:20:41.454 --> 00:20:43.474
- for a control plane for
573
00:20:43.934 --> 00:20:44.434
- management
574
00:20:44.974 --> 00:20:46.194
- of agents
575
00:20:46.920 --> 00:20:49.960
- to help you kinda get there. So it's
576
00:20:49.960 --> 00:20:52.299
- a path forward to observe,
577
00:20:52.840 --> 00:20:54.940
- have some measurable governance,
578
00:20:55.640 --> 00:20:56.140
- some
579
00:20:56.440 --> 00:20:57.180
- sense of
580
00:20:57.640 --> 00:21:01.115
- security with a agentic use in your organization.
581
00:21:01.494 --> 00:21:03.015
- But even then, I think there's a lot
582
00:21:03.015 --> 00:21:05.494
- of room to grow and a lot of
583
00:21:05.494 --> 00:21:06.474
- space to
584
00:21:06.855 --> 00:21:09.115
- kinda pick things up because as much visibility
585
00:21:09.255 --> 00:21:11.095
- as things like Agent three sixty five give
586
00:21:11.095 --> 00:21:12.855
- you today, they don't give you a full
587
00:21:12.855 --> 00:21:14.819
- three sixty view yet. And I think some
588
00:21:14.819 --> 00:21:17.640
- of it is gonna be how do people
589
00:21:18.019 --> 00:21:18.519
- start
590
00:21:19.220 --> 00:21:22.019
- trying to get that view, and are people
591
00:21:22.019 --> 00:21:24.759
- going to adopt agent three sixty five? Because
592
00:21:24.900 --> 00:21:26.740
- to your point, it's going to pull in
593
00:21:26.740 --> 00:21:28.179
- a lot of things. Like, I go to
594
00:21:28.179 --> 00:21:30.474
- my agent three sixty five today. Out of
595
00:21:30.474 --> 00:21:32.875
- the box, I haven't done anything special, and
596
00:21:32.875 --> 00:21:33.595
- I have 200
597
00:21:34.075 --> 00:21:36.315
- to your point about exponential growth, I have
598
00:21:36.315 --> 00:21:37.514
- 295
599
00:21:37.514 --> 00:21:38.014
- agents
600
00:21:38.394 --> 00:21:39.934
- in my organization.
601
00:21:40.315 --> 00:21:41.694
- These are not And your organization,
602
00:21:41.994 --> 00:21:44.339
- your tenant is tiny as far as, like,
603
00:21:44.339 --> 00:21:45.400
- the number of users.
604
00:21:45.779 --> 00:21:48.099
- It's not it's not an it's not like
605
00:21:48.099 --> 00:21:51.160
- a thousand person org. Mix of things. Like,
606
00:21:51.220 --> 00:21:53.220
- I've done some stuff with Dynamics three sixty
607
00:21:53.220 --> 00:21:54.660
- five. So I have a bunch of Dynamics
608
00:21:54.660 --> 00:21:55.880
- three sixty five agents.
609
00:21:56.184 --> 00:21:57.785
- And then I do have a few custom
610
00:21:57.785 --> 00:22:00.664
- agents. I have the Microsoft agents, like the
611
00:22:00.664 --> 00:22:01.565
- learn agent
612
00:22:01.945 --> 00:22:02.445
- and
613
00:22:03.945 --> 00:22:05.244
- the planner agent
614
00:22:05.705 --> 00:22:08.045
- and the SharePoint admin agent.
615
00:22:08.590 --> 00:22:10.350
- And then it does show and this is
616
00:22:10.350 --> 00:22:12.670
- an interesting thing that it shows us. These
617
00:22:12.670 --> 00:22:14.590
- are just agents that are registered with the
618
00:22:14.590 --> 00:22:17.170
- service. It shows things like Databricks
619
00:22:17.789 --> 00:22:18.289
- and
620
00:22:18.990 --> 00:22:20.289
- Mural and
621
00:22:21.230 --> 00:22:21.730
- Canva
622
00:22:22.350 --> 00:22:23.410
- and Mural,
623
00:22:23.789 --> 00:22:26.664
- where it's agents that are available, it doesn't
624
00:22:26.724 --> 00:22:27.224
- necessarily
625
00:22:27.605 --> 00:22:29.144
- mean they're connected,
626
00:22:29.684 --> 00:22:32.105
- but it means they're registered with the service.
627
00:22:32.404 --> 00:22:35.125
- But in order for agents to continue being
628
00:22:35.125 --> 00:22:37.525
- registered as people maybe do create ones that
629
00:22:37.525 --> 00:22:38.265
- they're using,
630
00:22:38.644 --> 00:22:39.545
- there's still
631
00:22:39.919 --> 00:22:43.299
- SDKs and different things that custom agents,
632
00:22:43.759 --> 00:22:45.460
- depending on where they're created,
633
00:22:45.839 --> 00:22:47.279
- there are certain things that have to be
634
00:22:47.279 --> 00:22:48.419
- done with those agents
635
00:22:48.720 --> 00:22:50.319
- to get them to show up in agent
636
00:22:50.319 --> 00:22:52.559
- three sixty five. If someone goes off and
637
00:22:52.559 --> 00:22:55.714
- creates a certain agent somewhere and doesn't tie
638
00:22:55.875 --> 00:22:57.634
- create the hooks to tie it into agent
639
00:22:57.634 --> 00:22:59.954
- three sixty five, it may not show up.
640
00:22:59.954 --> 00:23:01.634
- There are some things that are still in
641
00:23:01.634 --> 00:23:02.855
- preview, like registry
642
00:23:03.634 --> 00:23:06.615
- sync, which does allow you to start
643
00:23:07.009 --> 00:23:08.149
- connecting supported
644
00:23:08.529 --> 00:23:11.349
- third party AI platforms and syncing
645
00:23:11.809 --> 00:23:13.349
- third party agents
646
00:23:13.809 --> 00:23:15.809
- in. So, like, if you have agents out
647
00:23:15.809 --> 00:23:17.029
- on Amazon Bedrock,
648
00:23:17.490 --> 00:23:18.470
- Google Vertex,
649
00:23:19.154 --> 00:23:20.295
- Salesforce, Agentforce,
650
00:23:20.595 --> 00:23:21.654
- Databricks Genie,
651
00:23:22.115 --> 00:23:24.115
- you can set those up to start syncing
652
00:23:24.115 --> 00:23:26.755
- those agents into agent three sixty five two.
653
00:23:26.755 --> 00:23:29.414
- But there's there is still also a level
654
00:23:29.475 --> 00:23:32.134
- of adoption of here's the tool, here's,
655
00:23:33.409 --> 00:23:35.329
- not a framework, but a platform we've given
656
00:23:35.329 --> 00:23:37.649
- you to manage agents. There's still some of
657
00:23:37.649 --> 00:23:39.029
- that onus on organizations
658
00:23:39.409 --> 00:23:41.169
- to make sure all those agents are actually
659
00:23:41.169 --> 00:23:43.409
- getting in there. It's not the kinda go
660
00:23:43.409 --> 00:23:46.149
- click a bot and and set it and
661
00:23:46.289 --> 00:23:47.190
- forget it
662
00:23:47.634 --> 00:23:49.414
- kind of thing that you need to kinda
663
00:23:49.714 --> 00:23:52.194
- get in and figure out. Because it's I
664
00:23:52.194 --> 00:23:54.194
- think it was hard enough to manage the
665
00:23:54.194 --> 00:23:57.734
- tenant and the sprawl and everything else that
666
00:23:58.115 --> 00:24:00.535
- came along with it, and now it's just
667
00:24:01.100 --> 00:24:02.080
- that much more.
668
00:24:07.660 --> 00:24:09.900
- This episode is brought to you by Trusted
669
00:24:09.900 --> 00:24:12.940
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690
00:25:12.869 --> 00:25:13.335
- and schedule
691
00:25:25.414 --> 00:25:25.914
- basics
692
00:25:26.460 --> 00:25:27.980
- and maybe take a step back and say,
693
00:25:27.980 --> 00:25:30.539
- like, hey. Like, what can you start to
694
00:25:30.539 --> 00:25:33.119
- do with agent management
695
00:25:33.980 --> 00:25:35.200
- in the Microsoft
696
00:25:35.659 --> 00:25:38.539
- three sixty five admin center? So when you
697
00:25:38.539 --> 00:25:39.519
- go in for
698
00:25:40.140 --> 00:25:41.200
- kind of this govern
699
00:25:41.684 --> 00:25:43.464
- governance aspect of
700
00:25:44.644 --> 00:25:47.204
- agent three sixty five, which I don't know.
701
00:25:47.204 --> 00:25:48.644
- It's a weird tongue twister. I keep wrapped
702
00:25:48.644 --> 00:25:50.404
- in my head and getting wrapped on it.
703
00:25:50.404 --> 00:25:52.244
- So for me, the first thing I do
704
00:25:52.244 --> 00:25:53.384
- when I'm going into
705
00:25:53.764 --> 00:25:54.264
- a
706
00:25:54.690 --> 00:25:57.429
- client or even in my own environment is,
707
00:25:57.889 --> 00:25:59.970
- I would say, where I think most people
708
00:25:59.970 --> 00:26:02.549
- should start, where I usually start, is actually
709
00:26:02.690 --> 00:26:03.829
- looking at
710
00:26:04.289 --> 00:26:06.769
- all agents and looking at that agent registry.
711
00:26:06.769 --> 00:26:08.785
- And I will say if you don't have
712
00:26:08.785 --> 00:26:11.825
- agent three sixty five licensed, I've compared this
713
00:26:11.825 --> 00:26:13.125
- across a couple platforms.
714
00:26:13.664 --> 00:26:15.664
- You get some of this. You don't get
715
00:26:15.664 --> 00:26:16.325
- the full
716
00:26:16.865 --> 00:26:18.785
- you don't get the full report. So if
717
00:26:18.785 --> 00:26:20.625
- I go into agent three sixty five and
718
00:26:20.625 --> 00:26:23.125
- go look at all agents, it gives me
719
00:26:23.160 --> 00:26:24.140
- the name of the agent
720
00:26:24.519 --> 00:26:26.920
- if it's available. So am I actually making
721
00:26:26.920 --> 00:26:29.960
- this agent available to my users? The platform
722
00:26:29.960 --> 00:26:31.660
- that it came from, so is it Copilot
723
00:26:31.799 --> 00:26:32.299
- Studio?
724
00:26:33.160 --> 00:26:36.200
- Is it third parties are just blank? Is
725
00:26:36.200 --> 00:26:37.180
- it Foundry?
726
00:26:37.720 --> 00:26:39.804
- Is it some of those other ones? But
727
00:26:39.804 --> 00:26:42.204
- then I do start seeing interesting things. And
728
00:26:42.204 --> 00:26:44.204
- this is the part that's always fascinating to
729
00:26:44.204 --> 00:26:46.524
- me is I can see the risk of
730
00:26:46.524 --> 00:26:49.804
- the agent based on some criteria that Microsoft
731
00:26:49.804 --> 00:26:50.544
- has established.
732
00:26:50.845 --> 00:26:52.764
- I can see the active users, and I
733
00:26:52.764 --> 00:26:54.144
- can see the total sessions.
734
00:26:54.450 --> 00:26:56.849
- So one of those very interesting things with
735
00:26:56.849 --> 00:27:00.130
- me is I just go sort this agent
736
00:27:00.130 --> 00:27:00.630
- registry
737
00:27:01.089 --> 00:27:04.289
- by active users or by total sessions. So
738
00:27:04.289 --> 00:27:06.149
- I can go in and see that
739
00:27:06.474 --> 00:27:07.214
- I have
740
00:27:07.595 --> 00:27:08.494
- 50 people
741
00:27:08.875 --> 00:27:09.375
- using
742
00:27:09.835 --> 00:27:10.575
- this HubSpot
743
00:27:10.875 --> 00:27:13.754
- agent that are active users. And across those
744
00:27:13.754 --> 00:27:16.254
- 50 users, maybe I have 500
745
00:27:16.315 --> 00:27:19.355
- total sessions. It starts giving me just some
746
00:27:19.355 --> 00:27:21.774
- of that before I even do anything else,
747
00:27:21.859 --> 00:27:23.960
- it gives me some of that big picture
748
00:27:24.259 --> 00:27:24.759
- of
749
00:27:25.220 --> 00:27:26.200
- what agents
750
00:27:26.980 --> 00:27:28.359
- have people started
751
00:27:28.660 --> 00:27:29.799
- adding. Because
752
00:27:30.340 --> 00:27:31.799
- you can just go into
753
00:27:32.420 --> 00:27:32.920
- Copilot
754
00:27:33.380 --> 00:27:36.265
- and start adding agents. Maybe you have some
755
00:27:36.265 --> 00:27:37.945
- added, and you wanna know are people actually
756
00:27:37.945 --> 00:27:40.025
- using them. It just starts to give you,
757
00:27:40.025 --> 00:27:41.244
- again, that picture
758
00:27:41.705 --> 00:27:44.345
- of here's what's out there. Here's what people
759
00:27:44.345 --> 00:27:46.845
- are using. I had a very different kinda
760
00:27:47.065 --> 00:27:49.929
- take when I had stood up a tenant
761
00:27:49.929 --> 00:27:51.289
- and was going through and looking at some
762
00:27:51.289 --> 00:27:54.089
- of this. So I kind of approached it
763
00:27:54.089 --> 00:27:54.990
- from the lens
764
00:27:55.369 --> 00:27:55.869
- of,
765
00:27:56.490 --> 00:27:58.190
- I I I guess, maybe, like, even
766
00:27:58.569 --> 00:27:59.309
- an internal,
767
00:27:59.849 --> 00:28:01.309
- like, rubric for
768
00:28:01.945 --> 00:28:04.184
- where does the greatest risk lie. So it
769
00:28:04.184 --> 00:28:06.664
- wasn't so much about usage. It was more
770
00:28:06.664 --> 00:28:07.164
- around
771
00:28:07.705 --> 00:28:10.184
- what are the categories of these things. So
772
00:28:10.184 --> 00:28:12.825
- if you see, like, teams pop up in
773
00:28:12.825 --> 00:28:14.744
- the list, do I need to worry about
774
00:28:14.744 --> 00:28:17.029
- teams right now, or do I need to
775
00:28:17.029 --> 00:28:18.170
- go worry about
776
00:28:19.029 --> 00:28:20.089
- the third party
777
00:28:20.470 --> 00:28:23.109
- connector kind kind of thing? So if there
778
00:28:23.109 --> 00:28:24.869
- was stuff in there, let's say, that was,
779
00:28:24.869 --> 00:28:26.569
- like, published by your organization,
780
00:28:27.429 --> 00:28:28.789
- the the those might be a little bit
781
00:28:28.789 --> 00:28:30.630
- safer. Right? Like, you've probably published them out
782
00:28:30.630 --> 00:28:31.529
- there for a reason.
783
00:28:31.964 --> 00:28:32.464
- They're,
784
00:28:32.765 --> 00:28:35.424
- like, predictable to you, so you see them
785
00:28:35.565 --> 00:28:37.265
- and you know what they are.
786
00:28:37.804 --> 00:28:39.424
- There's the whole category
787
00:28:39.804 --> 00:28:40.304
- of
788
00:28:40.765 --> 00:28:43.744
- custom agents. So somebody in your organization
789
00:28:44.125 --> 00:28:45.585
- created a custom agent
790
00:28:46.190 --> 00:28:49.390
- in things like Copilot Studio, which there's a
791
00:28:49.390 --> 00:28:51.730
- weird new backdoor in the Copilot Studio.
792
00:28:52.109 --> 00:28:54.269
- It, like, even if you haven't licensed users
793
00:28:54.269 --> 00:28:57.230
- for it after they GA'd co work. So
794
00:28:57.230 --> 00:28:58.829
- so maybe there's some things that you wanna
795
00:28:58.829 --> 00:29:00.855
- look out for there, or you're just interested
796
00:29:00.855 --> 00:29:02.215
- in, like, what are the parts of my
797
00:29:02.215 --> 00:29:03.974
- organization that maybe have a little bit more
798
00:29:03.974 --> 00:29:04.474
- maturity
799
00:29:05.015 --> 00:29:06.875
- and are going and running with these things?
800
00:29:07.095 --> 00:29:09.414
- My my threat matrix for things that were,
801
00:29:09.414 --> 00:29:12.394
- like, Microsoft agents, so whether it was Dynamics
802
00:29:12.615 --> 00:29:13.115
- or
803
00:29:13.559 --> 00:29:15.559
- internal component kind of thing. Hey. If it
804
00:29:15.559 --> 00:29:17.639
- was developed by Microsoft and it was integrated
805
00:29:17.639 --> 00:29:19.880
- with Microsoft, like, that might not be my
806
00:29:19.880 --> 00:29:21.259
- my primary concern.
807
00:29:21.559 --> 00:29:24.059
- I'd rather bubble up things like the external
808
00:29:24.119 --> 00:29:26.924
- agents, so stuff that was created by either
809
00:29:26.924 --> 00:29:27.904
- a third party
810
00:29:28.204 --> 00:29:30.284
- was maybe created by, like, a developer that
811
00:29:30.284 --> 00:29:32.065
- a random business unit of yours
812
00:29:32.365 --> 00:29:34.845
- went and spun up because, you know, they
813
00:29:34.845 --> 00:29:36.284
- were able to or you didn't have the
814
00:29:36.284 --> 00:29:36.784
- existing
815
00:29:37.085 --> 00:29:39.184
- governance constructs in place in your
816
00:29:39.730 --> 00:29:41.970
- in in your tenant already. So and then
817
00:29:41.970 --> 00:29:44.609
- from there, dial into usage and see. So,
818
00:29:44.609 --> 00:29:46.149
- like, if I said, hey.
819
00:29:46.529 --> 00:29:47.429
- The external
820
00:29:47.890 --> 00:29:50.869
- or the, yeah, external partner agents and maybe
821
00:29:51.329 --> 00:29:54.115
- custom agents created, like, within my orgs. Those
822
00:29:54.115 --> 00:29:55.654
- are my two biggest, like, factors.
823
00:29:56.035 --> 00:29:58.434
- Then I'll go sort by usage and see
824
00:29:58.434 --> 00:29:59.015
- if you
825
00:29:59.394 --> 00:30:02.434
- can kinda suss out who's doing what there.
826
00:30:02.434 --> 00:30:04.835
- And I guess maybe mine isn't necessarily usage,
827
00:30:04.835 --> 00:30:07.809
- but it's looking it's looking for similar types
828
00:30:07.809 --> 00:30:09.730
- of stuff as you based on usage. That's
829
00:30:09.730 --> 00:30:11.410
- how I would freight. That's what I'm looking
830
00:30:11.410 --> 00:30:13.490
- more at as again, if co work shows
831
00:30:13.490 --> 00:30:14.690
- up at the top of my list of
832
00:30:14.690 --> 00:30:17.250
- usage, big deal. If Asana shows up and
833
00:30:17.250 --> 00:30:19.055
- I'm like, I don't even know anybody was
834
00:30:19.055 --> 00:30:21.214
- using Asana in the organization, and now there's
835
00:30:21.214 --> 00:30:23.555
- a bunch of sessions with the Asana agent,
836
00:30:23.695 --> 00:30:25.714
- it's why or
837
00:30:26.015 --> 00:30:28.894
- something that's risky. The other thing I think
838
00:30:28.894 --> 00:30:30.734
- that's fascinating, and I don't know how much
839
00:30:30.734 --> 00:30:32.414
- you played with this, is once you find
840
00:30:32.414 --> 00:30:35.009
- one of those agents, clicking on it and
841
00:30:35.009 --> 00:30:37.109
- looking at all of the details
842
00:30:37.649 --> 00:30:38.149
- inside
843
00:30:39.490 --> 00:30:41.329
- of each one of those agents. I don't
844
00:30:41.970 --> 00:30:43.490
- to me, I think I don't know how
845
00:30:43.490 --> 00:30:46.289
- much it's a governance topic as much as
846
00:30:46.289 --> 00:30:49.595
- it's a information as you're maybe assessing
847
00:30:50.215 --> 00:30:52.235
- the risk of it, or you're assessing
848
00:30:53.255 --> 00:30:55.174
- why is this agent there, what are people
849
00:30:55.174 --> 00:30:56.934
- doing with it, or if you need to
850
00:30:57.095 --> 00:30:58.475
- from the governance perspective,
851
00:30:58.855 --> 00:31:00.535
- if you deem need to go in and
852
00:31:00.535 --> 00:31:01.355
- start limiting
853
00:31:01.819 --> 00:31:03.660
- who can use that agent. Again, it's that
854
00:31:03.660 --> 00:31:05.579
- weird mix of now I'm not worried about
855
00:31:05.579 --> 00:31:08.000
- just users. I'm worried about APIs
856
00:31:08.539 --> 00:31:11.019
- and what they consume. And so now you're
857
00:31:11.019 --> 00:31:13.679
- back to the identity, the data access,
858
00:31:14.244 --> 00:31:17.204
- the that that whole spread of of things,
859
00:31:17.204 --> 00:31:19.284
- and it's just it's a lot of, like,
860
00:31:19.284 --> 00:31:21.684
- cognitive load. So you can kinda see what
861
00:31:21.684 --> 00:31:23.765
- Microsoft's doing by trying to make it easy
862
00:31:23.765 --> 00:31:25.765
- to see. So, hey. Cool. I got a
863
00:31:25.765 --> 00:31:26.904
- single pane of glass.
864
00:31:27.279 --> 00:31:29.839
- I've seen tenants where it's like, that single
865
00:31:29.839 --> 00:31:32.400
- pane of glass is overwhelming. Like like, it's
866
00:31:32.400 --> 00:31:34.079
- not helpful. It's more like, oh my gosh.
867
00:31:34.079 --> 00:31:35.599
- I'm gonna have a heart attack just having
868
00:31:35.599 --> 00:31:36.259
- to, like,
869
00:31:36.880 --> 00:31:39.460
- consume this page and trying to figure out
870
00:31:40.174 --> 00:31:41.075
- what do
871
00:31:41.535 --> 00:31:43.634
- I need to do here,
872
00:31:44.174 --> 00:31:45.855
- especially when you're not
873
00:31:46.414 --> 00:31:46.914
- maybe
874
00:31:47.535 --> 00:31:48.734
- you you haven't read your way all the
875
00:31:48.734 --> 00:31:50.654
- way through the documentation or you haven't, like,
876
00:31:50.654 --> 00:31:52.815
- fully started to consume these offerings. I think
877
00:31:52.815 --> 00:31:55.079
- Microsoft is trying to, like, move the needle.
878
00:31:55.079 --> 00:31:56.279
- I don't know if you've had a chance
879
00:31:56.279 --> 00:31:59.259
- to play with the the shadow AI component
880
00:31:59.480 --> 00:32:01.160
- and some of the stuff that comes out
881
00:32:01.160 --> 00:32:02.380
- of Frontier.
882
00:32:03.400 --> 00:32:05.640
- So you've got this if you're in the
883
00:32:05.640 --> 00:32:06.140
- Frontier
884
00:32:06.599 --> 00:32:07.099
- program,
885
00:32:08.200 --> 00:32:09.420
- okay, because, hey,
886
00:32:10.085 --> 00:32:11.684
- you're on the latest cutting edge of AI
887
00:32:11.684 --> 00:32:15.045
- innovation here. It also opens up the shadow
888
00:32:15.045 --> 00:32:17.684
- AI piece in the admin center there, and
889
00:32:17.684 --> 00:32:19.305
- then that starts to get you
890
00:32:19.684 --> 00:32:20.184
- information
891
00:32:20.724 --> 00:32:21.224
- about,
892
00:32:21.700 --> 00:32:24.440
- like, agentic harnesses in use within your organization.
893
00:32:24.580 --> 00:32:26.740
- So let's say you had somebody who went
894
00:32:26.740 --> 00:32:29.380
- out and installed, like, OpenClaw, things like that.
895
00:32:29.380 --> 00:32:30.740
- I don't know if it can detect, like,
896
00:32:30.740 --> 00:32:32.359
- some of the other harnesses, like Hermes
897
00:32:32.820 --> 00:32:34.340
- or or things like that, but it's very
898
00:32:34.340 --> 00:32:36.615
- much like preview capability, but helps you start
899
00:32:36.615 --> 00:32:37.355
- to rationalize
900
00:32:37.974 --> 00:32:40.294
- it just a little bit so you're not
901
00:32:40.294 --> 00:32:42.234
- having to, like, do everything
902
00:32:42.855 --> 00:32:45.034
- your yourself and have some of that overwhelming
903
00:32:45.095 --> 00:32:47.115
- stuff. Because if you are in an established
904
00:32:47.174 --> 00:32:49.299
- tenant and you were licensed already for Copilot,
905
00:32:49.299 --> 00:32:50.820
- like, you had an e seven. Right? Like,
906
00:32:50.820 --> 00:32:52.339
- we we've talked about e sevens in the
907
00:32:52.339 --> 00:32:54.179
- past. So great. You upgraded those. All of
908
00:32:54.179 --> 00:32:55.700
- a sudden, all your users are licensed for
909
00:32:55.700 --> 00:32:57.380
- this stuff, and they're just out there, like,
910
00:32:57.380 --> 00:32:59.539
- doing whatever. And they've been running that way
911
00:32:59.539 --> 00:33:01.924
- for three months, six months, a year if
912
00:33:01.924 --> 00:33:03.924
- you've never been in there, like, it's gonna
913
00:33:03.924 --> 00:33:05.944
- be a little bit of an overwhelming experience.
914
00:33:06.085 --> 00:33:08.325
- I was hoping for more in Shadow AI.
915
00:33:08.325 --> 00:33:10.484
- Maybe more It's pretty bare bones today. It's
916
00:33:10.484 --> 00:33:12.804
- pretty mine has open claw in it, which
917
00:33:12.804 --> 00:33:14.404
- I can start detecting. And then it has
918
00:33:14.404 --> 00:33:16.470
- a coming soon. And And under coming soon,
919
00:33:16.470 --> 00:33:20.650
- I have Ollama in Po desktop from Quora.
920
00:33:20.789 --> 00:33:22.630
- So those are the only I have one
921
00:33:22.630 --> 00:33:24.950
- it can detect too that are coming. I'm
922
00:33:24.950 --> 00:33:25.450
- surprised
923
00:33:25.990 --> 00:33:28.869
- there's not more in there. But, again, we'll
924
00:33:28.869 --> 00:33:31.210
- put our disclaimer on there of Frontier as
925
00:33:31.384 --> 00:33:33.625
- up and coming. Think of Frontier as, like,
926
00:33:33.625 --> 00:33:36.585
- beta preview type stuff. Hopefully, we see more
927
00:33:36.585 --> 00:33:38.265
- coming in there soon. Or, like, where does
928
00:33:38.265 --> 00:33:40.985
- Scout show? Because Scout's a harness, but it's
929
00:33:40.985 --> 00:33:42.045
- not Shadow AI.
930
00:33:42.505 --> 00:33:44.125
- But there's no other, like, dedicated
931
00:33:44.505 --> 00:33:45.565
- pillar category,
932
00:33:45.865 --> 00:33:46.684
- yeah, for
933
00:33:47.080 --> 00:33:47.900
- for harnesses
934
00:33:48.519 --> 00:33:50.680
- or or things like that. So because Scout
935
00:33:50.680 --> 00:33:53.240
- doesn't even show yeah. Scout shows up nowhere
936
00:33:53.240 --> 00:33:54.840
- right now in here. It's a weird world.
937
00:33:54.840 --> 00:33:56.279
- So maybe we should talk a little bit,
938
00:33:56.279 --> 00:33:58.380
- in the couple minutes we have left, about
939
00:33:59.160 --> 00:34:01.420
- kind of visibility into agents
940
00:34:01.914 --> 00:34:03.115
- and what you can see about them. Because
941
00:34:03.115 --> 00:34:05.275
- we kinda talked about high level. You can
942
00:34:05.275 --> 00:34:07.194
- get in. You can see what agents are
943
00:34:07.194 --> 00:34:08.574
- in use, the categories,
944
00:34:09.355 --> 00:34:11.755
- things like that. But then when you actually
945
00:34:11.755 --> 00:34:13.835
- have an agent that's out there, you can
946
00:34:13.835 --> 00:34:15.920
- get a little bit of high level detail
947
00:34:15.980 --> 00:34:18.059
- about what the agent is. You get insights
948
00:34:18.059 --> 00:34:18.960
- into the users,
949
00:34:19.500 --> 00:34:21.599
- potentially data and tools, permissions
950
00:34:22.460 --> 00:34:26.139
- for that agent, activity, things like that. So
951
00:34:26.139 --> 00:34:27.945
- so maybe we hop through a couple of
952
00:34:27.945 --> 00:34:29.385
- those just for folks who can get a
953
00:34:29.385 --> 00:34:31.385
- sense of what they can dig into. To
954
00:34:31.385 --> 00:34:32.125
- me, this
955
00:34:32.585 --> 00:34:35.065
- is super helpful when you're trying to dig
956
00:34:35.065 --> 00:34:37.405
- into it. Like, the details initially
957
00:34:38.025 --> 00:34:40.170
- gives you things like when it was created.
958
00:34:40.469 --> 00:34:42.949
- Has it been updated? Agents get updated over
959
00:34:42.949 --> 00:34:45.610
- time as you build them. Who published them?
960
00:34:45.670 --> 00:34:48.570
- Owners. What channels are they available in? So
961
00:34:48.710 --> 00:34:51.349
- I'll do Asana, for example. I use Asana.
962
00:34:51.349 --> 00:34:53.349
- So it's available for me in Copilot. It's
963
00:34:53.349 --> 00:34:55.744
- available in Outlook. It's available in Teams or
964
00:34:55.744 --> 00:34:58.385
- the different channels. So where can people access
965
00:34:58.385 --> 00:35:00.625
- it? Details really gives you a good overview.
966
00:35:00.625 --> 00:35:02.485
- It even gives you, like, if there's
967
00:35:02.945 --> 00:35:03.445
- instructions
968
00:35:03.744 --> 00:35:04.644
- with that agent,
969
00:35:05.025 --> 00:35:06.945
- if it's tied to an environment, this is
970
00:35:06.945 --> 00:35:09.119
- gonna be more applicable to, like, a Copilot
971
00:35:09.200 --> 00:35:12.240
- Studio agent, which environment is it in, just
972
00:35:12.240 --> 00:35:13.860
- a good general overview
973
00:35:14.320 --> 00:35:15.220
- of that agent.
974
00:35:16.480 --> 00:35:16.980
- Users
975
00:35:17.440 --> 00:35:19.440
- is more controlling it. So we talked about,
976
00:35:19.440 --> 00:35:21.920
- like, again, from an application perspective, what does
977
00:35:21.920 --> 00:35:24.234
- the agent have access to? Users is who
978
00:35:24.234 --> 00:35:26.714
- is it installed for and who is it
979
00:35:26.714 --> 00:35:29.934
- available to or who is it shared with.
980
00:35:30.074 --> 00:35:31.994
- So you can like, if you're a developer
981
00:35:31.994 --> 00:35:34.155
- and you've created it, you can just share
982
00:35:34.155 --> 00:35:36.574
- a an agent with somebody. But then available
983
00:35:36.635 --> 00:35:39.880
- to is who can actually install Asana? Should
984
00:35:39.880 --> 00:35:40.539
- it be
985
00:35:41.079 --> 00:35:42.840
- shown to all your users or are there
986
00:35:42.840 --> 00:35:45.559
- just specific groups that should be allowed to
987
00:35:45.559 --> 00:35:46.619
- install Asana?
988
00:35:46.920 --> 00:35:49.000
- And then installed for is do you actually
989
00:35:49.000 --> 00:35:50.920
- wanna pre install it? All my users are
990
00:35:50.920 --> 00:35:53.164
- gonna get Asana by default, So it's a
991
00:35:53.164 --> 00:35:55.724
- little bit for me, it relates very closely
992
00:35:55.724 --> 00:35:57.965
- to Intune when you have, like, required versus
993
00:35:57.965 --> 00:36:01.164
- available. Installed is this is required. Everybody gets
994
00:36:01.164 --> 00:36:03.405
- it. Available is they don't have to have
995
00:36:03.405 --> 00:36:05.180
- it, but if they want it, they have
996
00:36:05.180 --> 00:36:07.039
- the ability to go add it to Copilot.
997
00:36:07.099 --> 00:36:09.420
- And that's back to the, like, analogy about
998
00:36:09.420 --> 00:36:12.480
- applications. Right? So so age agents are applications,
999
00:36:12.539 --> 00:36:13.440
- but they're applications
1000
00:36:13.900 --> 00:36:16.380
- with, like, just a broader set of things
1001
00:36:16.380 --> 00:36:18.014
- that that you need to go look at.
1002
00:36:18.174 --> 00:36:19.714
- The other interesting thing
1003
00:36:20.094 --> 00:36:22.755
- about, like, the that that analogy of apps
1004
00:36:22.894 --> 00:36:23.795
- to agents
1005
00:36:24.255 --> 00:36:25.234
- to carry it forward
1006
00:36:25.614 --> 00:36:28.414
- is you've also got options around, like, agent
1007
00:36:28.414 --> 00:36:29.795
- availability and installation.
1008
00:36:30.179 --> 00:36:31.880
- So there's a difference between
1009
00:36:32.579 --> 00:36:34.039
- making an agent available
1010
00:36:34.420 --> 00:36:35.400
- and letting users
1011
00:36:35.699 --> 00:36:36.839
- discover it versus
1012
00:36:38.500 --> 00:36:41.719
- pre installing or pushing an agent or agents
1013
00:36:42.260 --> 00:36:45.664
- out to a security group or a set
1014
00:36:45.664 --> 00:36:47.905
- of folks that that are out there. So
1015
00:36:47.905 --> 00:36:49.905
- there's this kinda like, I made it available
1016
00:36:49.905 --> 00:36:52.625
- in visibility play, but users have to go
1017
00:36:52.625 --> 00:36:54.864
- self install, and if they install, great, they
1018
00:36:54.864 --> 00:36:56.085
- needed it, versus
1019
00:36:56.625 --> 00:36:58.005
- I've made this agent
1020
00:36:58.530 --> 00:37:00.929
- or this agent set of agents, whatever it
1021
00:37:00.929 --> 00:37:03.010
- is. It's actually, like, part of the user's
1022
00:37:03.010 --> 00:37:04.929
- job now. Right? Where, like, you you push
1023
00:37:04.929 --> 00:37:06.710
- it out like you would push out
1024
00:37:07.170 --> 00:37:09.030
- an application through Intune
1025
00:37:09.329 --> 00:37:10.724
- or things like that.
1026
00:37:12.805 --> 00:37:15.525
- You're out of time. Copilot needs to be
1027
00:37:15.525 --> 00:37:18.724
- deployed ASAP, but is your tenant really ready
1028
00:37:18.724 --> 00:37:21.864
- for it? Years of data, permissions, and users
1029
00:37:22.085 --> 00:37:24.599
- lurk in its shadows, ready to be exposed
1030
00:37:24.659 --> 00:37:25.480
- by AI.
1031
00:37:25.780 --> 00:37:28.579
- Sharegate Protect sees it all, so you can
1032
00:37:28.579 --> 00:37:31.619
- find the exposure risks, fix them fast, and
1033
00:37:31.619 --> 00:37:33.400
- deploy AI with confidence.
1034
00:37:33.780 --> 00:37:34.280
- Microsoft
1035
00:37:34.579 --> 00:37:35.960
- three sixty five governance.
1036
00:37:36.340 --> 00:37:42.094
- We got this. Learn more at sharegate.com/governance.
1037
00:37:45.034 --> 00:37:46.714
- And then on the other side, again, going
1038
00:37:46.714 --> 00:37:49.135
- into applications, I'm gonna jump over the permissions
1039
00:37:49.355 --> 00:37:51.674
- tab. After you've looked at users or you
1040
00:37:51.674 --> 00:37:53.500
- wanna do that, one of the other things
1041
00:37:53.500 --> 00:37:55.900
- you have is permissions that are very much
1042
00:37:55.980 --> 00:37:58.480
- like, if you're looking at those enterprise apps,
1043
00:37:58.779 --> 00:38:00.940
- where it gives you and, again, Asana as
1044
00:38:00.940 --> 00:38:02.239
- an example has
1045
00:38:02.619 --> 00:38:04.079
- channel read basic
1046
00:38:04.460 --> 00:38:06.719
- all to read channel names and channel descriptions
1047
00:38:07.085 --> 00:38:08.605
- in Teams. This is where you need to
1048
00:38:08.605 --> 00:38:10.684
- know, like, your graph permissions because all of
1049
00:38:10.684 --> 00:38:13.565
- a sudden, you're seeing permissions. Scopes? I'm amazed
1050
00:38:13.565 --> 00:38:15.404
- they haven't, yeah, like, done a better job
1051
00:38:15.404 --> 00:38:17.644
- with abstracting the scopes. It's still, like, group
1052
00:38:17.644 --> 00:38:20.464
- dot read dot all, teams activity dot send.
1053
00:38:20.684 --> 00:38:21.960
- So So it's all this random stuff. And
1054
00:38:21.960 --> 00:38:23.559
- it makes sense when you see it, but
1055
00:38:23.559 --> 00:38:26.440
- does everybody actually know, like, what What that
1056
00:38:26.440 --> 00:38:28.920
- means? Yeah. Like, what is user dot read
1057
00:38:28.920 --> 00:38:30.460
- dot all, like, versus
1058
00:38:31.159 --> 00:38:34.059
- another read dot all scope or permission
1059
00:38:34.599 --> 00:38:36.034
- set that's out there kinda thing.
1060
00:38:36.894 --> 00:38:38.175
- So so you end up in this world
1061
00:38:38.175 --> 00:38:39.635
- of, like, there there's probably
1062
00:38:40.054 --> 00:38:40.175
- I
1063
00:38:41.694 --> 00:38:43.635
- my experience has been, like, there's common
1064
00:38:44.014 --> 00:38:46.494
- permissions or, like, they're broadly applicable. Like, there's
1065
00:38:46.494 --> 00:38:48.414
- a bunch of stuff out there that has
1066
00:38:48.414 --> 00:38:50.880
- things like user dot read dot all. So
1067
00:38:50.880 --> 00:38:52.559
- is, like, is that okay in your organization
1068
00:38:52.559 --> 00:38:54.480
- that this thing can read your entire orgs?
1069
00:38:54.480 --> 00:38:56.239
- This thing can? Like, yeah. Maybe. Maybe it's
1070
00:38:56.239 --> 00:38:57.679
- a requirement of it. Maybe it's not a
1071
00:38:57.679 --> 00:38:58.579
- requirement of
1072
00:38:58.880 --> 00:38:59.380
- it,
1073
00:39:00.000 --> 00:39:01.920
- what whatever it happens to be. And then
1074
00:39:01.920 --> 00:39:04.420
- you've also got the whole delegated permissions
1075
00:39:04.719 --> 00:39:08.235
- aspect of sometimes these agents act autonomously,
1076
00:39:08.614 --> 00:39:10.855
- so the agent is the agent, and sometimes
1077
00:39:10.855 --> 00:39:13.255
- they act on behalf of user, and sometimes
1078
00:39:13.255 --> 00:39:14.875
- they do both at the same time.
1079
00:39:15.974 --> 00:39:19.219
- Yes. And that's one, like, I do there's
1080
00:39:19.219 --> 00:39:20.819
- a few things I like in here. This
1081
00:39:20.819 --> 00:39:23.699
- does show delegated versus application there. The other
1082
00:39:23.699 --> 00:39:25.699
- thing I like here, and I don't think
1083
00:39:25.699 --> 00:39:27.779
- it shows it when you're dealing with enterprise
1084
00:39:27.779 --> 00:39:30.099
- apps or app registrations in Entra, is the
1085
00:39:30.099 --> 00:39:32.755
- last column does show privilege level. So if
1086
00:39:32.755 --> 00:39:35.734
- I'm looking at channel.readbasic.all,
1087
00:39:35.954 --> 00:39:37.954
- like, to your point, what does that mean?
1088
00:39:37.954 --> 00:39:39.635
- Should I be worried about it? Here it
1089
00:39:39.635 --> 00:39:42.034
- says that's a low privilege level. Okay. So
1090
00:39:42.034 --> 00:39:44.489
- if it's a low privilege level, I maybe
1091
00:39:44.730 --> 00:39:46.409
- don't know what it means. It does give
1092
00:39:46.409 --> 00:39:48.329
- it details. It says it reads channel names
1093
00:39:48.329 --> 00:39:50.730
- and channel descriptions on behalf of the signed
1094
00:39:50.730 --> 00:39:52.809
- in user. But then it says privilege low
1095
00:39:52.809 --> 00:39:53.309
- versus
1096
00:39:53.610 --> 00:39:55.769
- chat dot read write, that's gonna be a
1097
00:39:55.769 --> 00:39:56.590
- medium privilege.
1098
00:39:57.005 --> 00:39:59.405
- So as you're looking through this too, you
1099
00:39:59.405 --> 00:40:02.045
- can get you still wanna understand them, but
1100
00:40:02.045 --> 00:40:03.105
- you can get a nice
1101
00:40:03.565 --> 00:40:04.385
- scan of,
1102
00:40:04.684 --> 00:40:06.525
- are there a bunch of high privilege ones
1103
00:40:06.525 --> 00:40:09.005
- in here, or is it primarily just low
1104
00:40:09.005 --> 00:40:09.505
- privilege?
1105
00:40:10.219 --> 00:40:12.380
- What are those different privilege levels of those
1106
00:40:12.380 --> 00:40:14.699
- graph permissions? There's another weird tab. We should
1107
00:40:14.699 --> 00:40:16.219
- talk about it while we have a couple
1108
00:40:16.219 --> 00:40:18.000
- minutes left. Agent certification
1109
00:40:18.539 --> 00:40:19.359
- or certification.
1110
00:40:19.659 --> 00:40:22.239
- I'm waiting for mine to load. Agent certification.
1111
00:40:22.619 --> 00:40:23.119
- Publisher
1112
00:40:23.500 --> 00:40:24.000
- attested.
1113
00:40:24.380 --> 00:40:24.779
- This is
1114
00:40:25.420 --> 00:40:26.614
- yeah. This is
1115
00:40:26.994 --> 00:40:28.994
- one I have some clients that are very
1116
00:40:28.994 --> 00:40:30.375
- concerned about. Yes.
1117
00:40:30.675 --> 00:40:32.454
- And it's super important to them
1118
00:40:32.914 --> 00:40:36.375
- is this gives a whole bunch of details
1119
00:40:36.835 --> 00:40:37.335
- on
1120
00:40:37.954 --> 00:40:40.695
- how is this agent certified according to
1121
00:40:40.994 --> 00:40:41.494
- different
1122
00:40:42.010 --> 00:40:42.510
- compliance
1123
00:40:43.130 --> 00:40:43.630
- regulations?
1124
00:40:44.090 --> 00:40:45.849
- So I have a sign up, so I'm
1125
00:40:45.849 --> 00:40:47.470
- gonna keep going with it. Is
1126
00:40:47.930 --> 00:40:50.809
- one you have, is it publisher attested? So
1127
00:40:50.809 --> 00:40:52.510
- for Asana, is this attested
1128
00:40:52.890 --> 00:40:53.390
- by
1129
00:40:53.784 --> 00:40:54.445
- a self
1130
00:40:54.985 --> 00:40:55.804
- assessment reported
1131
00:40:56.105 --> 00:40:58.284
- by Asana? So so to be very clear,
1132
00:40:58.505 --> 00:40:59.405
- self assessment
1133
00:40:59.864 --> 00:41:03.244
- by the publisher. Publisher. So this is Asana
1134
00:41:03.304 --> 00:41:04.284
- telling Microsoft.
1135
00:41:04.664 --> 00:41:07.965
- Even for Microsoft, you'll see Microsoft certified
1136
00:41:08.344 --> 00:41:08.844
- versus,
1137
00:41:09.219 --> 00:41:09.719
- yes,
1138
00:41:10.260 --> 00:41:12.660
- an Asana or somebody else or SAP is
1139
00:41:12.660 --> 00:41:14.519
- saying, yes, self attestation.
1140
00:41:14.900 --> 00:41:16.260
- This is an area that I would love
1141
00:41:16.260 --> 00:41:17.640
- to see more transparency
1142
00:41:18.180 --> 00:41:18.680
- about
1143
00:41:19.059 --> 00:41:21.940
- what's actually checked in the self attestation flow.
1144
00:41:21.940 --> 00:41:25.025
- Like, how does Microsoft verify that? Because there's
1145
00:41:25.025 --> 00:41:26.945
- callouts in the docs when you go and
1146
00:41:26.945 --> 00:41:29.184
- and read through this. So let let me
1147
00:41:29.184 --> 00:41:30.224
- pull it up so I get it right.
1148
00:41:30.224 --> 00:41:32.244
- So Microsoft three sixty five certification
1149
00:41:32.625 --> 00:41:33.925
- reflects an independent
1150
00:41:34.224 --> 00:41:34.724
- security
1151
00:41:35.025 --> 00:41:38.085
- and compliance assessment that's valid for twelve months
1152
00:41:38.210 --> 00:41:40.949
- and helps confirm that the agent meets Microsoft
1153
00:41:41.009 --> 00:41:43.589
- standards for handling tenant data. Great.
1154
00:41:43.889 --> 00:41:47.029
- What's in that independent security and compliance
1155
00:41:47.889 --> 00:41:50.609
- assessment? And what is, like like so and
1156
00:41:50.609 --> 00:41:53.525
- it's self attested for twelve months. What happens
1157
00:41:53.525 --> 00:41:56.405
- if Asana pushes an update and now they've
1158
00:41:56.405 --> 00:41:59.125
- broken their compliance all the way? Like like,
1159
00:41:59.125 --> 00:42:01.445
- did you come back and review that update?
1160
00:42:01.445 --> 00:42:02.744
- Like, it's a
1161
00:42:03.605 --> 00:42:05.704
- that one's a little bit of a weird
1162
00:42:06.349 --> 00:42:06.849
- situation.
1163
00:42:07.869 --> 00:42:09.630
- And I get where Microsoft is. Like, there's
1164
00:42:09.630 --> 00:42:12.670
- no, like, broad, like, agent security consortium or
1165
00:42:12.670 --> 00:42:14.829
- something like that where you can say, here's
1166
00:42:14.829 --> 00:42:16.750
- the open standards. Here's the way this stuff
1167
00:42:16.750 --> 00:42:19.550
- goes. But, hopefully, the industry does coalesce there
1168
00:42:19.550 --> 00:42:21.309
- over time. Like, you'd think they'd have to
1169
00:42:21.309 --> 00:42:23.704
- for regulated industry and all that. How would
1170
00:42:23.704 --> 00:42:25.405
- they even go through
1171
00:42:26.184 --> 00:42:28.344
- certifying it? Because it says right in here
1172
00:42:28.344 --> 00:42:30.505
- when it's publisher tested that Microsoft makes no
1173
00:42:30.505 --> 00:42:32.125
- guarantees regarding accuracy.
1174
00:42:32.425 --> 00:42:35.099
- I mean, I suppose Microsoft could require certain
1175
00:42:35.099 --> 00:42:37.599
- documentation to be uploaded, but even
1176
00:42:37.980 --> 00:42:39.760
- when I go in it's
1177
00:42:40.380 --> 00:42:42.940
- if I'm looking at something, an agent, how
1178
00:42:42.940 --> 00:42:45.420
- would I even go in and verify that
1179
00:42:45.420 --> 00:42:46.319
- it meets
1180
00:42:46.779 --> 00:42:48.000
- HIPAA, that it's
1181
00:42:48.315 --> 00:42:51.135
- HITRUST, that it's SOC one or SOC two.
1182
00:42:51.275 --> 00:42:52.574
- Other than just getting
1183
00:42:53.195 --> 00:42:53.695
- documentation,
1184
00:42:54.234 --> 00:42:56.795
- like, to get SOC two, I know that
1185
00:42:56.795 --> 00:42:57.835
- when you have to go through a whole
1186
00:42:57.835 --> 00:42:59.675
- bunch of stuff, you get those you get
1187
00:42:59.675 --> 00:43:00.414
- the certification.
1188
00:43:00.795 --> 00:43:02.554
- I don't know if Microsoft makes them upload
1189
00:43:02.554 --> 00:43:04.550
- it, but you do get things like HIPAA,
1190
00:43:04.690 --> 00:43:07.910
- where based on everything I've understood about HIPAA
1191
00:43:07.970 --> 00:43:08.470
- is
1192
00:43:09.090 --> 00:43:12.130
- you don't there's no stamp of approval of
1193
00:43:12.130 --> 00:43:13.730
- once you do a, b, c, d, e,
1194
00:43:13.730 --> 00:43:16.925
- f, g, you're HIPAA compliant. It's a lot
1195
00:43:16.925 --> 00:43:19.085
- of focused on you need to make your
1196
00:43:19.085 --> 00:43:21.744
- best effort to protect this type of documentation,
1197
00:43:22.285 --> 00:43:25.244
- and one person's best effort might differ from
1198
00:43:25.244 --> 00:43:26.144
- another person's
1199
00:43:26.605 --> 00:43:30.304
- best effort. And it's really hard to actually
1200
00:43:30.950 --> 00:43:33.030
- stamp something. Like, even Microsoft three sixty five.
1201
00:43:33.030 --> 00:43:35.050
- Microsoft three sixty five is HIPAA compliant.
1202
00:43:35.349 --> 00:43:36.630
- If you go in and do the right
1203
00:43:36.630 --> 00:43:37.130
- stuff,
1204
00:43:37.510 --> 00:43:39.190
- is a sign of the same way when
1205
00:43:39.190 --> 00:43:40.950
- they say they're HIPAA compliant or there are
1206
00:43:40.950 --> 00:43:43.750
- other certain configurations you need to make. It
1207
00:43:43.829 --> 00:43:45.894
- it's to your point, it's kinda
1208
00:43:46.195 --> 00:43:48.514
- vague. It's some of these can be hard.
1209
00:43:48.514 --> 00:43:49.875
- Some of them are a little bit more
1210
00:43:49.875 --> 00:43:50.375
- straightforward.
1211
00:43:50.755 --> 00:43:51.635
- I think I said, I hope it's one
1212
00:43:51.635 --> 00:43:53.894
- of those areas where, like, the industry coalesces
1213
00:43:54.034 --> 00:43:55.655
- over time. Because today, it's
1214
00:43:56.275 --> 00:43:57.795
- it's a little bit of, like, a gut
1215
00:43:57.795 --> 00:44:00.639
- feeling of, alright. So I know who built
1216
00:44:00.639 --> 00:44:02.880
- the agents. Good. I was able to identify
1217
00:44:02.880 --> 00:44:05.679
- that. And, like, how much do I trust
1218
00:44:05.679 --> 00:44:06.420
- that person
1219
00:44:07.199 --> 00:44:08.179
- or that publisher?
1220
00:44:08.719 --> 00:44:10.639
- And a little bit of light, like, what's
1221
00:44:10.639 --> 00:44:11.539
- it been validated
1222
00:44:11.934 --> 00:44:13.775
- against kind of thing. It's I think it's
1223
00:44:13.775 --> 00:44:16.994
- no different probably than or or maybe analogous
1224
00:44:17.214 --> 00:44:17.714
- to,
1225
00:44:18.174 --> 00:44:20.514
- like, app stores. Right? Like, Google Play
1226
00:44:20.894 --> 00:44:22.514
- or Apple running the
1227
00:44:22.894 --> 00:44:25.234
- iOS or Mac app stores. Right? Like, hey.
1228
00:44:25.340 --> 00:44:27.900
- Customer signed it. They came in. They pushed
1229
00:44:27.900 --> 00:44:29.679
- it out, but that doesn't always
1230
00:44:29.980 --> 00:44:32.880
- prevent malicious apps or other things
1231
00:44:33.340 --> 00:44:35.179
- that that are coming through. That might be
1232
00:44:35.179 --> 00:44:36.539
- a fun day, right, when the very first,
1233
00:44:36.539 --> 00:44:39.440
- like, malicious, like, broad malicious agent comes through
1234
00:44:39.545 --> 00:44:40.985
- And somebody's like, oh, hey. I gotta, like,
1235
00:44:40.985 --> 00:44:42.905
- yank this agent out of every tenant, kinda
1236
00:44:42.905 --> 00:44:45.005
- like publishers do with app stores and
1237
00:44:45.385 --> 00:44:48.285
- and things like that. Conditional access for agents,
1238
00:44:48.505 --> 00:44:52.265
- risky agent access policies and conditional access, Scott.
1239
00:44:52.265 --> 00:44:54.570
- All sorts of things. So, yeah, so I
1240
00:44:54.570 --> 00:44:56.170
- I think this is, like, just to wrap
1241
00:44:56.170 --> 00:44:57.849
- up, like, this is an area for folks
1242
00:44:57.849 --> 00:44:58.349
- to
1243
00:44:58.809 --> 00:45:01.470
- go and look at, especially if you're in
1244
00:45:01.690 --> 00:45:03.530
- licensed environments and maybe you haven't had the
1245
00:45:03.530 --> 00:45:04.890
- time to dig into it. Like, you should
1246
00:45:04.890 --> 00:45:06.329
- have access, I believe, to all this if
1247
00:45:06.329 --> 00:45:09.675
- you're on e sevens and kind kinda latest
1248
00:45:09.675 --> 00:45:12.635
- and greatest there. There are ways to license
1249
00:45:12.635 --> 00:45:13.994
- and get in. So if your tenants are
1250
00:45:13.994 --> 00:45:15.695
- configured for things like Copilot,
1251
00:45:16.474 --> 00:45:17.454
- for Cowork,
1252
00:45:17.835 --> 00:45:20.875
- and these things like that, it's worth at
1253
00:45:20.875 --> 00:45:22.015
- least browsing through
1254
00:45:22.394 --> 00:45:24.075
- and seeing what's out there if you haven't
1255
00:45:24.075 --> 00:45:26.099
- been in there. And, hopefully, no, like, big,
1256
00:45:26.099 --> 00:45:27.960
- like, red flags or overreactive
1257
00:45:28.339 --> 00:45:28.839
- decisions
1258
00:45:29.460 --> 00:45:31.559
- to take, but having some of that visibility
1259
00:45:31.780 --> 00:45:32.920
- and starting to
1260
00:45:33.219 --> 00:45:35.139
- kinda build some of that confidence because all
1261
00:45:35.219 --> 00:45:36.819
- like you said, you're going from managing, like,
1262
00:45:36.819 --> 00:45:39.139
- these individual constructs to managing a whole bunch
1263
00:45:39.139 --> 00:45:40.485
- of bundled things at once.
1264
00:45:41.364 --> 00:45:42.744
- It's a lot more to
1265
00:45:43.285 --> 00:45:44.505
- wrap your head around
1266
00:45:45.045 --> 00:45:47.125
- and stay on top of, and then you're
1267
00:45:47.125 --> 00:45:48.585
- very much trusting in vendors
1268
00:45:49.045 --> 00:45:50.825
- and folks like Microsoft
1269
00:45:51.525 --> 00:45:53.285
- to kinda give you the tools with the
1270
00:45:53.285 --> 00:45:53.785
- insights
1271
00:45:54.150 --> 00:45:56.230
- and visibility that you need. Yep. And really
1272
00:45:56.230 --> 00:45:58.489
- starting to think about what does agent governance
1273
00:45:58.549 --> 00:46:00.889
- look like at your organization. What is
1274
00:46:01.429 --> 00:46:03.670
- how are you gonna start not just looking
1275
00:46:03.670 --> 00:46:05.030
- through this, but how are you gonna start
1276
00:46:05.030 --> 00:46:06.170
- managing those agents?
1277
00:46:06.614 --> 00:46:07.974
- What are people allowed to do? I feel
1278
00:46:07.974 --> 00:46:09.414
- like it's also one of those topics that
1279
00:46:09.414 --> 00:46:11.175
- a lot of people have even put much
1280
00:46:11.175 --> 00:46:13.914
- thought into yet is what is agent governance
1281
00:46:14.054 --> 00:46:15.514
- look like for our organization?
1282
00:46:15.815 --> 00:46:16.795
- It's a rapidly
1283
00:46:17.094 --> 00:46:20.315
- evolving thing. And probably even more important,
1284
00:46:20.730 --> 00:46:22.329
- and I'm sure we'll wrap back around on
1285
00:46:22.329 --> 00:46:24.030
- this topic sometime in the future,
1286
00:46:24.489 --> 00:46:26.670
- but as all this stuff's transitioning
1287
00:46:26.969 --> 00:46:27.469
- to
1288
00:46:28.250 --> 00:46:31.469
- consumption based billing versus kinda like the broader
1289
00:46:32.585 --> 00:46:34.204
- the broader unlimited usage.
1290
00:46:34.664 --> 00:46:37.545
- Now there's also the aspect of, hey. That
1291
00:46:37.545 --> 00:46:39.704
- thing that you deployed to your users six
1292
00:46:39.704 --> 00:46:41.784
- months ago that, I don't know, let's say
1293
00:46:41.784 --> 00:46:44.904
- it costs $20 in usage per user per
1294
00:46:44.904 --> 00:46:47.085
- month, like GitHub Copilot, for example,
1295
00:46:47.500 --> 00:46:48.320
- all of a
1296
00:46:48.619 --> 00:46:49.840
- sudden could be costing,
1297
00:46:50.140 --> 00:46:51.280
- like, thousands,
1298
00:46:51.820 --> 00:46:54.059
- tens of thousands. I've seen some really wonky
1299
00:46:54.059 --> 00:46:56.460
- bills and and threads flying around on the
1300
00:46:56.460 --> 00:46:58.700
- Reddits of the world and and things like
1301
00:46:58.700 --> 00:47:00.380
- that where some of this stuff is going
1302
00:47:00.380 --> 00:47:02.614
- off the rails for folks. So there there's
1303
00:47:02.614 --> 00:47:04.534
- also a little bit of, like, a cost
1304
00:47:04.534 --> 00:47:06.155
- management play for organizations
1305
00:47:06.534 --> 00:47:08.614
- as to, like, who's using what, when are
1306
00:47:08.614 --> 00:47:09.755
- they using it, things
1307
00:47:10.135 --> 00:47:11.974
- in the world of certainly more in the
1308
00:47:11.974 --> 00:47:14.454
- world of consumption billing than it kinda was
1309
00:47:14.454 --> 00:47:16.760
- in the past a couple of months building
1310
00:47:16.760 --> 00:47:18.599
- up to this. For sure. Cost management is
1311
00:47:18.599 --> 00:47:21.239
- one that'll be another topic for another day.
1312
00:47:21.239 --> 00:47:23.019
- I started playing with it, though, because
1313
00:47:23.480 --> 00:47:25.800
- there's a bunch of stuff that's going to
1314
00:47:25.800 --> 00:47:28.151
- change. We'll have to fit that oh, by
1315
00:47:28.151 --> 00:47:30.045
- the time we come out with a new
1316
00:47:30.045 --> 00:47:31.938
- episode, it will have already been implemented. There's
1317
00:47:31.938 --> 00:47:33.831
- a bunch of stuff that changes on July
1318
00:47:33.831 --> 00:47:35.724
- 1 in terms of availability if you don't
1319
00:47:35.724 --> 00:47:37.617
- have some of that set up. The world
1320
00:47:37.617 --> 00:47:39.510
- continues to change. Another topic, another day, Scott.
1321
00:47:39.510 --> 00:47:41.640
- But for now Another topic, another day. All
1322
00:47:41.640 --> 00:47:43.533
- good. I'm gonna go to a graduation, open
1323
00:47:43.533 --> 00:47:45.610
- house, and hang out with my family up
1324
00:47:45.610 --> 00:47:47.769
- in Michigan. Alright. Good luck. Have fun on
1325
00:47:47.769 --> 00:47:50.329
- the Peninsula, Ben. Alright. Thanks. I will do
1326
00:47:50.329 --> 00:47:51.929
- that, and enjoy your weekend, and we'll talk
1327
00:47:51.929 --> 00:47:52.590
- to you soon.
1328
00:47:54.650 --> 00:47:56.969
- If you enjoyed the podcast, go leave us
1329
00:47:56.969 --> 00:47:59.164
- a five star rating in iTunes. It helps
1330
00:47:59.164 --> 00:48:00.844
- to get the word out so more IT
1331
00:48:00.844 --> 00:48:03.005
- pros can learn about Office three sixty five
1332
00:48:03.005 --> 00:48:03.664
- and Azure.
1333
00:48:04.204 --> 00:48:05.885
- If you have any questions you want us
1334
00:48:05.885 --> 00:48:08.045
- to address on the show, or feedback about
1335
00:48:08.045 --> 00:48:10.364
- the show, feel free to reach out via
1336
00:48:10.364 --> 00:48:12.625
- our website, Twitter, or Facebook.
1337
00:48:12.994 --> 00:48:14.754
- Thanks again for listening, and have a great
1338
00:48:14.754 --> 00:48:15.254
- day.