When Your Differentiator Stops Working: Meta, Bumble, Obama & the FAA

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Hey everyone, welcome back to the Meme Team Podcast, where we discuss viral pop culture moments in movies, TV, music, tech, and politics.
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I'm your host, Sonia Bechez, and today we're discussing Zuckerberg's 6,500-word manifesto about democratizing AI, Bumble scrapping the women message first rule that defined their entire brand, Obama launching a podcast about reading, and the FAA hitting record hiring numbers by recruiting video gamers as air traffic controllers.
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This week, I'm joined by Jonathan K. Lowe, founder and CEO of Salt Foundry, a collective of fractional chief marketing officers that provides strategy and leadership for growing brands.
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Jonathan is also the author of the bestselling book, Keeping People Interested, How Leaders Use Marketing to Capture and Sustain Attention.
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Welcome, Jonathan.
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Welcome, Jonathan.
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Thanks, Linda.
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Excited to be here.
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Awesome.
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Okay, so let's dive right into it.
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So yesterday, Zuckerberg published this huge manifesto arguing that everyone should have access to superintelligence, positioning Meta as the open democratic alternative to paywalled AI.
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He tied it to the Industrial Revolution using his own family examples of how he's using AI, and then took direct shots at other AI companies, especially those that have more of a doom framing, without naming names.
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And it's interesting because obviously OpenAI published their own manifesto back in June, which kind of had similar language, which is that AI should belong to everyone and not just a small number of institutions.
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So obviously some of that message is getting around to all the CEOs of the company.
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But then on July 27th, Altman declared that we're in the singularity and it's going to be incredibly, hugely positive, awesome for the world.
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Four days after that, it got out that his AI escaped containment and autonomously hacked Hugging Face.
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Anthropik, meanwhile, has gotten caught in investor meetings saying that their pivot to health care is designed to mitigate the increasingly negative public sentiment against the industry.
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They're basically positing that figuring a miracle cure or two would certainly do wonders to turn things around.
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That's all being said while all three of them are headed towards IPOs or, you know, funding rounds.
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And it's just been interesting to think about how, I mean, Dario at Anthropic has been pretty, you know, I'd say pretty vocal about the doomerism side of things.
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Yeah.
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And then each of the CEOs has in some way kind of talked about, you know, AI affecting things negatively, whether that's jobs being lost or changes happening that, you know, might in terms of like privacy and security.
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Yeah.
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And obviously right now, Meta has several high-profile cases against Facebook and Instagram and how the algorithm works.
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There's a couple cases like in California.
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I think one was just announced in New Mexico that is essentially going to change how the platform works.
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And the FTC is currently appealing, ruling against Meta for what they called a buy or bury scheme, essentially saying that it's trying to be a monopoly.
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So when Zuckerberg is talking about open and free internet and open and free AI, at what point does that come up against what they actually do in public?
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So Jonathan, have you seen this manifesto?
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Did you read it?
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I know it was a
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but would love to know your thoughts.
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Yeah, I didn't get a chance to read through the manifesto, but it's just such an interesting idea of the democratization of technology, right?
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And I think philosophically, most of us would agree that that is great in ideals.
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But the question is, how do you practically bring that to be?
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And, you know, if you look at public utilities, right, is it really the government itself that ends up creating the infrastructure or do they subcontract and then make everything accessible?
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Right.
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So I would say there's no easy answers here, but obviously you want the folks who can build the tech, be the leaders, but you also want some sort of governmental oversight.
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So the people, right, we have some sort of a say in where the technology goes and how it affects our everyday lives.
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Yeah, I mean, I think that's the huge battle we're seeing play out, right?
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Where, you know, data centers, how AI is being used to capture intelligence, whether through books, right?
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That was a huge story that came out, I think, last week or the week before about Anthropic destroying books because it had to, you know, it was trying to read them all.
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Yeah.
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Right, read them.
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And then you get into the, well, it was necessary because legal copyright says that they have to destroy the books.
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So how much of it is it really that they're doing it because of the intelligence models that they're trying to build versus the legal landscape that they find themselves in and trying to stay on the right side of the law?
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But, you know, we're seeing those battles play out in communities every day, right, with AI data centers being challenged.
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Right.
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I saw, you know, part of what came out after the manifesto was this article in The Verge where journalist Elizabeth Lopato was pointing out a couple tells from Zuckerberg's examples about how, you know, he was giving examples of how he uses AI at home.
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where he's working with his daughter.
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She's coding programs by herself.
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But he mentions this moment of finding baking recipes because they're baking together.
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And the journalist pushes back and says, why is this something that you would go to AI for?
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Why isn't this something you would try to
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cure it yourself and go and like have that be part of the process.
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And this happened recently too with Sam Altman saying that one of the best examples of AI that he's seen is that create podcasts based on your children's likes, right?
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To kind of
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form conversation with them in the car while you're driving.
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And most of the people that, you know, pilloried him for it, right?
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Saying, why aren't you having these conversations with your kid instead of, you know, handing it off to the AI?
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And I think it's this very interesting, you know, pushback that's happening.
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There's other example today that actually really annoyed me
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the classic book, Brand New Worlds, and how he used AI to help him create sort of like a reading guide for himself so that he understood the characters and the themes of the book.
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And, you know, you have journalists coming out there saying like, you know, the societal brain rot of like, you know, people that can't like read a book or admitting that they can't read a book without AI.
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And it's just like one of those things where it's like the man admitted that this was a book that he would never would have read on his own.
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So is it not better for him to try to read the book?
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You know, is this not like the type like we had what were those cliff notes?
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Right.
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We had cliff notes books for the longest time to help people learn the themes and all that.
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Right.
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And I just think people kind of push take things too far where it's like it.
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you can't imagine a way that you would use the product in the same way that, you know, these people are.
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So then you just like, get really negative about it instead of, you know, trying to be open to the idea that,
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Some people need more help than others to do things that wouldn't.
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So yeah, I don't know how much you use AI in your personal or professional life, but are those things that you think about?
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Absolutely.
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So I wouldn't consider myself an expert on AI, but my undergraduate degree was in electrical engineering.
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I've always worked very closely with developers through the years of my career.
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And I was part of an AI startup for a year as well.
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And so I definitely have thought through, wrestled through some of the philosophical and practical implications of artificial intelligence.
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It is a tool I use fairly regularly, but I also recognize the concerns people have both around the practical implications of the impact in the environment, as well as
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philosophically, you know, the implications around how do we end up teaching?
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How do we end up thinking?
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Are we going to lose the ability to think critically because the machine's doing it for us?
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Now, my overall perspective is that I am optimistic about tools such as artificial intelligence.
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I take just a broader, you know, view of
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history and technology.
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And I have this perspective that many of us, especially who are privileged enough, anybody who's listening to this podcast, right, is living better than Kings 200 years ago.
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We have better water.
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better healthcare, better shelter, right?
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More access to community and people.
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It's not that we always take advantage and leverage technology in the healthiest ways, right?
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And that is one of the criticisms of companies like Meta and the way that they leverage their algorithm to hook people in.
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But is my life better because I found out about my high school reunion through Facebook?
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Is my life better because, you know, through the years I was able to connect and have community and leverage the marketplace to sell items and buy used items and recycle, you know, items instead of buying brand new, right?
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Like, are there elements of technology that are better?
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I think generally, yes, right?
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And many of the people who have been afraid
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of artificial intelligence and how that's going to affect the way that we think and affect the next generation.
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I agree.
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I applaud that sentiment.
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But also, don't we think that something like artificial intelligence is fairly analogous to mobile phones, to the internet?
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Let's go all the way back to the calculator.
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I assume that teachers back in the day were freaking out that calculators existed because we thought students would no longer figure out how to do math in their head.
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And, you know, maybe I can't multiply 17 by 13 as well as somebody 30 years ago, but are we solving more complicated issues?
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Mm-hmm.
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Because of calculators, were we able to invent things such as the internet?
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Because of the intranet, were we able to invent all sorts of industries and innovations and advancements that make our lives better?
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I do think healthcare is a very practical application that AI was already helping detect cancer earlier than ever before.
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And there will be more cases like that.
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When we think about energy consumption and water usage, which really hits near the home because of the Utah data center debate, right?
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Do we think that potentially a tool such as AI might create more solutions for clean, renewable energy?
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I'm generally optimistic that it will, while also recognizing that the application of technology has not always been for the better for mankind.
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There will always be those who are leveraging things selfishly and leveraging things for their own gain without thought to others and community and the good of others and the environment.
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I recognize that.
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But generally, I think that technology is good for us.
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Yeah, that's one of the things I actually really appreciated about Zuckerberg's manifesto is how much he was able to both tie it back to reality.
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previous examples of the agricultural revolution and the industrial revolution and how humanity changed significantly because of the technological progress that came from those, you know, eras, and then all the innovations that kind of stemmed from it.
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He mentioned how, you know, we were then able to create food in a, you know, faster way and how that, you know, made cities, you know, grow.
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And then from like the cities growing, like all the innovations that came from that.
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So I like that he was able to put that in a historical context.
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I also liked that he's able to speak about AI in a way that wasn't just that doomerism, right?
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I think part of Dario Amode's problem with how he's talking about AI and Anthropic and Claude is that
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You know, he keeps mentioning that lawyers and accountants, they're all going to lose their jobs because AI is going to take them without making it seem as if without pushing also forward that we don't know what sort of new jobs are going to get created because of the advent of AI.
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And I'm more of a, you know, I'm.
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abundance or growth mindset type person where it's like, we don't even know what jobs are going to get created from this.
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Even right now, like my job has completely changed.
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I'm able to work with more clients, work more in depth in ways that I couldn't before because of AI.
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And I really think it, you know...
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it's both up to the individual, yes, to decide how they want to do it, but it's also for us as a society to have these discussions and actually try to get to the point of like how is it that it's going to benefit society and like the humans that are, you know, also getting displaced by the water and, you know, and that, yes, the salary and all that I get.
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But not just also...
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I think part of what I'm trying to say is like, I see a lot of these discussions happening.
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And like the immediate thing is you just want to shut it down.
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Instead of trying to like get to the point.
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I mean, there's been a couple of high profile like artists or creative, one of them being Hank Green, right, that came out a couple weeks ago saying that he used AI to help him research.
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which is like one of the best use cases for AI, right?
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If he uses that as a way to do more or try to do more.
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And his fans came out and just completely like got him to apologize and take back, you know, what he was doing or the project he was working on because he now felt uncomfortable in how he was kind of, you know, putting himself out there, but then also how his fans were seeing him.
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And I think that's one issue.
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The other one is...
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the discussion that we're having now about data centers, right?
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Like you have a lot of misinformation happening about what a data center actually means like for the community, right?
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And we're starting to see some journalists like push back and put out the facts about how much property tax is being funneled back into the community.
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How I think there was an example this week in South Carolina.
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Um, where like the town has seen, you know, immense growth and like prices are skyrocketing for rents and food and everything because, um, the community is now, um, bringing in a whole bunch of workers that are trying to work at the data center.
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Um, so I think that we need to be having these nuanced conversations, um, about that.
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My one thing, though, is like, should Facebook and should Anthropoc, should OpenAI be the ones having these like, you know, discussions by themselves without having any other people that are also on the side of optimism?
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speak to how these companies should be providing for the communities that they're trying to go into?
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That is a tricky question.
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I would imagine if they were wise, they are seeking counsel, right?
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And, you know, I've worked at multi-billion dollar organizations that do a lot of research and are really trying to get at the core of what problems we're trying to solve.
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Now, I realize that's not always true.
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And when we're busy and when we're in our own worlds, we're just trying to make decisions in advance.
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But I do think it is important.
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And that's why it's actually helpful for these companies to post manifestos so we know what they're thinking.
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Now, I also am not naive enough to believe that everything they say is exactly what they practice.
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Whether or not they intend to or not, right?
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It's just when you're managing a multi-billion dollar company, you will not know everything that's going on.
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But that's where vision and culture come into play.
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Now, should they be getting feedback from the general public and government officials and other companies and nonprofits?
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Absolutely, yes.
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Practically, what might that look like?
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I'm really not sure.
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Yeah, yeah, yeah.
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Yeah, and I think that that's a thing.
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Yeah.
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that all of us, you know, should kind of think about.
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And I think particularly, you know, marketers who, um, on both sides, right?
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Like I've met marketers who are just like, no, I don't use AI at all.
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And then I've met the marketers who are like, oh my God, it's changed everything that I do and how I do it.
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Um, but yeah, figuring out how to have those conversations, especially as our own work gets affected.
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Right.
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Um, uh,
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I've seen a couple anecdotes of people saying that as soon as they see a company use AI, both to write or in images, they're like, that completely turns me off from the company.
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So I think us as marketers have to know where our audience stands because we're going to be affected.
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If we do use AI and our audience hates it.
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But on the flip side, like if our audience expects us to use it because we're saying that we're like tech forward and AI forward and everything and you're not using it to the best of the ability or it just looks so fake, then that's also detrimental to your product and service or whatever it is that you're trying to promote.
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So there's definitely that nuance there, but I think it comes down to those individuals of like, well, what is it that you think from your community?
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How is your audience going to react?
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What are these things that you can do and say that, you know, puts you right in front of your target audience?
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So that's a lesson for me.
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One of the other lessons is this whole idea of, is this just rhetoric, this whole idea of democratic access?
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Is it...
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The whole idea of like farm to table or organic where it's just it gets labeled as this elite thing in order to get people of that tier to recognize what it is.
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But will it play out that way when it turns out that an open source model isn't the most profitable, you know?
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And I think that that's something that like we need to think about when we are marketing ourselves and putting this messaging out there to not use such lofty language that it'll come back and bite us in the ass when it doesn't turn out that way in the future.
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And obviously, you know, Meta can always say that like this is where we were at that point and now we have to go in this direction.
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Or maybe it is true that for them, because they are doing more consumer models or straight to individuals as opposed to Anthropic that's doing more, you know,
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enterprise sales or, you know, company to company, it makes more sense for Meta to own the, we're, you know, here for democratic access.
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So that's a way to kind of think about how you're positioning yourself against your competitors in order to show people what the differences are between the two of you.
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And I do believe the words matter.
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And again, I recognize and I'm not naive enough to believe that everyone who says what they are going to do actually follows through.
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And we see this in politics very often.
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And large corporations, whether or not they will admit it, are political beings.
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And what they say has effects on the broader society as well as their own companies.
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But what you say does matter.
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And I also think, you know, as a marketer, you know, I have a few different kind of strong opinions about AI because I have used it as a tool.
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And I think that's what it is for us, at least.
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Right.
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There are these broader implications, but just like any, just like an analytics dashboard or a word processor or the laptop that we're on.
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Right.
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Artificial intelligence that the applications of those products are tools.
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And so we can use them for good or we can use them for bad.
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Just like we can use marketing for good or use marketing for bad.
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Again, I try to take the generally optimistic view that the purpose of a company is to add value to the world.
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And I think that just by the nature of the fact that a company exists, that they're selling products, means they are adding value so much that somebody is willing to trade money for their product or service.
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There is some exchange of value.
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There is some value creation.
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Again, I recognize some products in the world are maybe not the best for people.
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And there's a lot of more complex factors.
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But broadly speaking, you can use AI for good then.
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As a marketer, for example, I support one of my clients is a really great nonprofit called Warrior Rising.
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That is veteran entrepreneurs who have created programs and support to help other veteran entrepreneurs grow their businesses.
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Wow.
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And I have saved hours of my life and improved quality on data analytics because I've gathered data and then I leverage a tool in Claude to help me find and analyze what's working and what's not and create charts.
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It helps me find implications.
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And I've saved hours and gleaned a lot of insights that have helped a cool organization like Warrior Rising grow, right?
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Yeah.
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So I think the application of the tool is very important.
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One of the huge ways I use it is having that data visualization, right?
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Because I see things in my head, but I can't actually do it myself.
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So it's easier to speak to the AI to get that, you know, to come out.
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And people, you know, that are more visual in that sense can see the data in a way that they never would have thought of before and then make.
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decisions based off that.
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So I totally agree that there's like ways to use tools.
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And I think that that's one thing I did like about how he talked about, you know, AI and his manifesto is talking about AI as a tool and how it can do things.
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And he went through like a variety of examples in healthcare, science, science,
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and, you know, using it in that way.
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So overall, I do think that the messaging is good.
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You know, I think from a calm standpoint, how we're kind of
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positioning ourselves and talking about those vision statements matter, you know, the only pushback I'd say is that it was never put in the context.
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And of course, he doesn't want to put it in the context of Facebook, you know, or Meta and Instagram and everything that's happening, you know, legally.
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But it does, it did make me question throughout like
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It's Facebook the best company to be doing this when we know how they have reacted with social media, which is that their business model is always going to win and they're always going to put the profits ahead regardless of the societal wrong, you know, or bad that it's done.
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But I mean, that's the thing that should be discussed by all of us going forward.
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Awesome.
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Okay, we can move on to topic number two.
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We talk a lot here about branding and what it means to position yourself and differentiate yourself from your competitors.
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And Bumble is changing what made the brand its brand.
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And so this is after the CEO left.
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And so the current board and CEO are deciding to
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reverse its signature mechanic of women messaging first.
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Now they're gonna allow men to make that first move.
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And it's very interesting to think about it now where it's like, is this the only way to save the company?
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Or is it losing the main thing that made it?
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what it was, you know, and I was thinking about this because I just flew, um, up to San Francisco and back, um, using Southwest.
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And it was the first time that I had to fly with, um, assigned seating as opposed to, you know, open seating.
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I mean, that was like a very big thing that we
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you know, Southwest got rid of not only the assigned seating, but the free checked bags.
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And now you have to pay for bags and you have to, you know, choose a seat and pay for that.
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Right.
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And at the time I said that, you know, I expected it to blow up in their faces because, you know, all the other airlines are doing the same thing.
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But I went and I looked at the numbers and apparently the stock is up 23 percent year to date.
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Their revenue hit a record $8.4 billion.
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up 16, 40%.
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And their own research is saying that 80% of customers prefer assigned seating and that open seating was the number one reason that customers left for their competitors.
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So sounds like that's essentially killing it for them, right?
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Where now it's like they're winning, following what every other brand is doing because their customers wanted that.
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And then the ones who didn't want that
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like me, were in the minority.
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So I'll be curious to see how it comes out with Bumble, whether this is going to be a thing that helps save the business or if they're going to end up failing.
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I think part of what I had been thinking about is how much it means
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I guess, societally, how much has changed from when Bumble launched and this was heralded as the way for women to take the first move.
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And then realize how much of it is changing now that it seems as if younger demographics are a bit more traditional and want to have more of those gender roles played out.
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And this is one of those examples.
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brands changing or, you know, like working or not.
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Yeah, well, and to bridge our topics a little bit too, I do really believe that in the age of AI, what's really going to make the difference for companies is their brand, their marketing, their storytelling, and how human they feel and how they're able to actually have empathy and connect with customers.
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And so storytelling becomes critically important because the barriers to creating functional products is so significantly reduced.
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You can vibe code a workable web app or mobile app very quickly now that it's being commoditized.
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Now that's what's also interesting about dating apps is, is it a commodity now?
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And it's also interesting to intersect considering the growth stages of companies.
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dating app, right?
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Facebook was not the first social media platform.
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But in the stage of a startup, it's very important to niche and to have a strong brand that stands for something that's memorable, that's unique, that does something just a little bit differently, that's understandable, right?
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And for Bumble, it was really powerful because they leveraged their branding and storytelling in a
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and caught that need, recognized that no one else was doing that, and was able to find a niche to get to a certain stage of growth.
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Now, with so much other competition, and this, I think, is a similar parallel with both Southwest and even Facebook, users expect more and more features,
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And it actually is very important to understand what your customers are seeking and desiring in the product set.
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And so if, for example, Southwest did and understood the research that, hey, for the majority, no longer is this a feature, it's almost a bug.
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Well, can we shift that?
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But can we still have a unique brand identity and a unique, for example, point-to-point system rather than that?
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you know, the hub system of other airlines, you know, what really differentiates the brand and what even allows you to scale greater, right?
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If Facebook only ever forever limited itself to universities, it absolutely would not, you know, be the behemoth that it is today and its impact on society would be lower than, again, arguably whether or not this is good or bad, you know, their impact to society would be smaller than they would have desired.
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And so it doesn't make sense for a brand like Bumble who got a lot of brand recognition for a specific core feature to change that.
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I don't have all the data, but I could see where they're coming from.
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Yeah, yeah, yeah.
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I mean, obviously, this isn't the first change that Bumble has tried.
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They've, you know, gone into, you know, Bumble Women to Women in terms of like creating, being a friendship app, right?
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For women.
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Bumble DSF.
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Yeah.
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Yeah, exactly.
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So they had different, you know, verticals that they could expand into.
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But the main, you know, product of dating of their dating app has seemingly just started failing more and more compared to.
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Tinder and Hinge and all those, which also have their own type of brand persona that I think of them as, right?
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So this seems to be, I mean, I don't want to say it's the last...
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But obviously, I think much like Southwest where if it's a thing that you're finding out that people actively detest or aren't using to the utmost, then like what really is the point of keeping it?
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other than slowly dying a slow death, I guess.
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And I think there's also a lot to be said about you as the in-house team kind of figuring out what these changes are.
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I think another example that recently came to a fore was the Cracker Barrel branding change, where it's like they were trying to update their brands and their restaurants and stuff.
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Um, and the CEO was just fired after a year because it ended up being a massive failure.
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Um, and so, you know, us as marketers, right, we always have these ideas of like, oh, obviously, you know, Cracker Barrel should have kept its, you know, brand and the storytelling, everything it was doing, because that's what people, you know, were going there for.
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Um, whereas like with Bumble, it makes sense that, um, the, the main goal that they're trying to achieve is getting people to date.
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Right.
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Right.
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It's not that they have to date in a specific way, which is that women have to reach out to men.
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And I think it makes sense where it's like when you break it down to what it is that your ideal customer is coming to you for, then how do you help them achieve that?
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Right.
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And if it means removing all like, you know, the kitschiness or, you know, whatever.
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this thing that you thought was the main reason people were coming to you for, then I think that that's an okay thing for you to do when you have to, you know?
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And I think it is going to play out to Bumble's favor because if you're going back to what their main
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goal is, is to get people to date and want to, you know, use their app, then like, um, the having women have to communicate first, isn't that main thing.
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Um, and then obviously they might lose some of their, you know, hardcore fans, like that's fine.
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But I think in terms of serving everybody else and then where we are now, I mean, societally things have changed from when Bumble first came out.
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Um, then it's like, you have to meet your user where they are now and,
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and not keep things where they used to be, because that's what worked for you back when you first came out.
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And I think it's okay for companies to recognize that and think about, well, where are we now?
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How do we serve our current target user and current target new users?
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And like, what is it that they expect?
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And what is it they want from us?
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And then work from there in order to best serve them?
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Yeah.
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Well, this really reminds me of a concept that I talked about in my book.
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I even made a
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I liked it so much I created a chart for it, which is really to talk about the difference between marketing myopia and jobs to be done.
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So marketing myopia, neither terms of which that I created, but have been heavily researched by two very different Harvard professors, actually.
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But marketing myopia is just so centered around your own story, your own product features, those little pieces, like looking down at the thing that you've made or the thing that you offer.
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For jobs to be done is much more strategic and customer-centric instead of tactical and company-centric.
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So what is jobs to be done?
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Well, it's this concept that Clayton Christensen popularized in his book, Competing Against Luck, and it was invented by a guy called Anthony Alwick, who runs a consultancy called Stratagin.
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But the concept is that we are constantly hiring and firing products and services in our lives as long as they serve our needs.
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So let me ask you, do you need a kitchen knife that's eight inches long, Damascus steel, you know, 18 degree cutting angle, full tape?
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Like, do you need a kitchen knife or do you need the ability to quickly and consistently create a healthy meal for your family?
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Mm-hmm.
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The job to be done is the meal.
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And so this knife serves a certain function and it will continue to serve that function in your life as long as it does its job.
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But once there is another product that can do that job better, maybe I need to make a lot of salsa and I need to cut a ton of onions.
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Maybe a food processor is a better solution for the job to be done than the kitchen knife.
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And so in that instance, the kitchen knife gets fired.
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And so you think about this for brands as well, because we do talk, and I would, you know, liken in this analogy that women are the ones that outreach, that is a product feature.
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But what is the job to be done that Bumble's solve for?
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Is it empowering women?
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Is it helping women feel safe?
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Is it, right, like, there's all these more esoteric values of what Bumble's brand stands for.
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today.
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And so they can continue to scale and grow and still meet the core job to be done, such as creating a safe environment for women in a dating context through other features and through the brand and through the way that they filter men and women and how they, you know, use their algorithms to connect folks.
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There's other ways to meet that job to be done that maybe do need to evolve past focusing on specific product features.
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Yeah, I think that that's a
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having to think about what it is that your target customer is coming to you for and how you're selling yourself to them.
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And I think sometimes that gets lost in this narrative of who we are and our mission and all that.
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And sometimes that ends up getting in the way of, is your customer actually happy with how you're providing that service?
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So that's why I think these two examples for me
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just kind of show that like, um, sometimes change is good.
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Um, and that, you know, um, you know, it's working for Southwest.
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We don't quite know if it's going to work for Bumble, but, um, they're at least trying, you know, something new.
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Um, and you're right.
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Like there are other ways for them to try to, um, um, you know, fix the problem of their declining growth.
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And then this is, you know, the way that they are doing it now after trying a variety of other ways.
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So, yeah, you know, it'll be interesting to see where it goes.
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Okay, cool.
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So a couple of lessons for me are that when your differentiator is driving away your customers, it's no longer a differentiator that deserves to stay.
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It's you have to know what your customer is coming to you for and what their ultimate goal is to.
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And it served its purpose, you know, back when it was first created.
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It's what made it, you know, gave it all the headlines, right?
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Like this is how it was going to be different from Tinder and Hinge and all the other like dating apps.
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And so it did what it needed to at the time.
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Another lesson for me is that you can go back and change things that maybe were useful to you back when you first started.
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And
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Because I've seen a lot of companies just like think that their positioning has to stay the same, you know, throughout their growth.
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And it's like, no, it served its purpose when you first started.
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And it was what it was at that time.
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Now that we're, you know, where we are now, is it still serving its function?
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Is the positioning, is the differentiator, is our mission, our values and all that, like, are they still serving the purpose?
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And if they're not, then it's okay to change.
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And in fact, you have to.
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Otherwise, you're just, you know, setting yourself up to lose.
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And then the third thing is that data can tell you what customers say they want, but it can't always tell you why they came to you in the first place.
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So this is a huge lesson, at least for me, because I thought the Southwest thing was going to fail abysmally, and it hasn't.
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That people may say that the main reason that they came to you is that they wanted the checked bags and they wanted the free open seating.
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But then it turns out that the people that are actually buying from you
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prefer the assigned seating.
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And at that point, you know, you got to go where the customer is taking you, especially the ones that are paying for you.
383
00:37:38.749 --> 00:37:47.274
So don't be, you know, don't get beholden to the data that says that, you know, the main reason why they came is, you know, the old thing.
384
00:37:47.974 --> 00:37:57.460
Be open to trying new things and seeing where the data takes you then because, you know, you might find that you are now more profitable than you were before the change.
385
00:37:58.448 --> 00:37:59.229
Any lessons from you?
386
00:38:17.225 --> 00:38:21.711
Qualitative research are non-numerical, so customer interviews, essentially.
387
00:38:22.152 --> 00:38:26.297
And the quantitative is the data analytics, it's the survey results, right?
388
00:38:26.337 --> 00:38:34.268
You leverage qualitative to understand the dimensions by which your customers care about items, and then quantitative to actually understand how important they are.
389
00:38:34.628 --> 00:38:41.530
And you can kind of do this for the brand as a whole, but you can continue to do this to more minute product details and features.
390
00:38:41.771 --> 00:38:46.812
For example, I've worked for a multi-billion dollar e-commerce company, and we did this for the brand.
391
00:38:47.192 --> 00:38:50.854
And then we also did it for their loyalty program, for their mobile app, etc.
392
00:38:51.294 --> 00:39:00.377
And so it is important, right, because the data numbers might say one thing, but the interviews may help nudge you in a different direction that you can then...
393
00:39:00.697 --> 00:39:03.781
rediscover what the numbers actually say around those dimensions.
394
00:39:04.161 --> 00:39:10.729
And we need to have enough empathy for our customers to do that, to constantly understand how important different areas are for them.
395
00:39:10.749 --> 00:39:16.536
You know, my book is called Keeping People Interested, the only KPI that really matters.
396
00:39:16.916 --> 00:39:17.937
And the premise of the book
397
00:39:18.718 --> 00:39:33.790
is that in order to keep people interested, you have to be interested in them, which means having empathy, which means all the things I just talked about, and we've been discussing around adding value, understanding their deep and true needs, and actually providing value to them in those needs.
398
00:39:34.051 --> 00:39:39.015
Yeah, I mean, I love that thinking because it positions...
399
00:39:40.397 --> 00:39:45.558
marketers to be interested in their audience.
400
00:39:45.718 --> 00:39:48.079
That shouldn't be a novel concept.
401
00:39:48.239 --> 00:40:04.783
But sometimes it feels as if companies don't care about their audience or their target customer, that they're just trying to extract as much value as they can from them without giving back or acknowledging that, you know, they're there, they care.
402
00:40:10.304 --> 00:40:10.338
Thank you.
403
00:40:10.810 --> 00:40:14.092
they're confused as to why or what they did.
404
00:40:14.112 --> 00:40:20.476
And it's like, well, if you look at your behavior and how you've been treating them, it would make sense why they no longer like you.
405
00:40:21.196 --> 00:40:36.144
So I like the idea of like continuing to be interested in your target audience, one, but then be allowing for the change when you do have new target audience and figuring out are they in contrast or is it something that
406
00:40:41.327 --> 00:40:42.248
target audiences.
407
00:40:44.089 --> 00:40:44.349
Awesome.
408
00:40:44.489 --> 00:40:49.672
Okay, so let's move on to Obama launching a book podcast.
409
00:40:49.692 --> 00:40:55.336
So Obama announced this week that he is launching a new podcast about books on Audible.
410
00:40:55.516 --> 00:41:04.181
His framing in his tweet was that at a time when fewer people are able to sit down with a book, it's important to remember the joy and power that can come from reading.
411
00:41:05.821 --> 00:41:11.782
he's promoting... What I found interesting is that he's promoting a book podcast on a listening platform.
412
00:41:12.923 --> 00:41:32.847
And then the other thing is that here we go with another celebrity podcast because we've been talking about here how we've seen just a general rise in how many celebrities are turning to podcasts, not only to grow their own audience, but as a way to have conversations that they can't have anywhere else.
413
00:41:32.867 --> 00:41:33.607
Yeah.
414
00:41:34.407 --> 00:41:37.971
And so I think this is super interesting, right?
415
00:41:37.991 --> 00:41:45.578
Like Obama, obviously, like, I mean, since he was president, has been coming out with yearly lists of his favorite music and his favorite books for the year.
416
00:41:46.139 --> 00:41:47.800
And there's always super popular.
417
00:41:47.940 --> 00:41:49.001
They always go viral.
418
00:41:49.322 --> 00:41:49.882
And yeah.
419
00:41:50.783 --> 00:41:53.685
it's really positioned him as being a reader.
420
00:41:53.865 --> 00:42:12.638
And I think it's like really interesting, especially at a time when, you know, a lot of people just aren't reading, that he continues to have that be a seminal part of who he is, but also a thing that he uses to share and relate to people on a, you know, human-to-human basis.
421
00:42:13.178 --> 00:42:14.599
So I thought that was really interesting.
422
00:42:15.800 --> 00:42:19.282
The main thing here was that I thought was...
423
00:42:20.443 --> 00:42:27.591
I guess different is that it's talking about books that have already come out and that made him who he is today, right?
424
00:42:27.631 --> 00:42:30.554
Like it's not going to be current books that are really coming out.
425
00:42:30.674 --> 00:42:38.783
It's more like a discussion that he's having with books that made him, you know, into the man that he is now into the president, ex president and all that.
426
00:42:39.463 --> 00:43:01.734
um so it was you know interesting to think about it as in like this isn't necessarily that he's going to be out there as like the next Reese Witherspoon or Oprah or Dua Lipa right who have like a current book club that people you know um listen to and like interview with like the authors and stuff but it's still more about him um which you know it's kind of funny yeah
427
00:43:02.974 --> 00:43:08.415
because, you know, a lot of the stuff that he does obviously is about him.
428
00:43:09.495 --> 00:43:12.976
And I thought that that was like a unique way.
429
00:43:13.796 --> 00:43:16.537
It also seems as if it's only going to be six episodes.
430
00:43:16.617 --> 00:43:27.738
So I do wonder if this is going to be an ongoing thing that he has going or if this is just kind of like a one-off, like let me talk about the books that made me who I am and then figure out like what the next, you know, podcast is.
431
00:43:27.878 --> 00:43:30.259
But yeah, did you see this, Jonathan?
432
00:43:30.279 --> 00:43:30.379
Yeah.
433
00:43:31.471 --> 00:43:39.015
Well, I think, you know, it's interesting the areas that Obama chooses to continue to engage, right?
434
00:43:39.035 --> 00:43:44.638
Many ex-presidents and heads of state live incredibly quiet lives after they're no longer in office.
435
00:43:44.938 --> 00:43:47.880
And for the most part, generally, I think Obama did as well.
436
00:43:48.260 --> 00:43:51.982
Now, if I were him, I would be thinking about what am I passionate about?
437
00:43:52.323 --> 00:43:54.364
What kind of legacy do I want to leave?
438
00:43:54.704 --> 00:44:03.730
And where can I make an impact, you know, continually to society in a way that can really impact, you know, affect future generations?
439
00:44:04.150 --> 00:44:07.813
And so it's interesting for him to choose reading, right, as this current project.
440
00:44:07.833 --> 00:44:08.053
Yeah.
441
00:44:08.773 --> 00:44:16.240
And I think it's actually pretty natural to share about books that impact you because that is a way to love and care for people, right?
442
00:44:16.860 --> 00:44:25.468
Hey, I was so transformed by this whatever, you know, product or lesson or quote or this person that I met.
443
00:44:25.548 --> 00:44:27.650
I just want to share with the world, right?
444
00:44:27.670 --> 00:44:30.232
Because I think that could also help you as well.
445
00:44:30.532 --> 00:44:32.174
I think that's actually a great place to start.
446
00:44:32.474 --> 00:44:35.717
Now, if he's starting with just six, makes sense because he doesn't want to come in.
447
00:44:36.017 --> 00:44:37.899
commit the next 20 years of his life to this.
448
00:44:37.979 --> 00:44:40.061
And if it goes well, maybe he'll do more.
449
00:44:40.921 --> 00:44:42.623
But, you know, the irony is not lost.
450
00:44:42.683 --> 00:44:48.107
I mean, where you mentioned also that, you know, he's talking about reading more in an audio format.
451
00:44:48.568 --> 00:44:55.854
But even then, I think it very much aligns with the principles of my book of having empathy and meeting people where they're at, right?
452
00:44:56.174 --> 00:45:00.878
Why write a book about reading more books if people aren't reading books?
453
00:45:01.118 --> 00:45:03.841
I read The Hunger Games books only after watching the movies.
454
00:45:04.221 --> 00:45:08.702
And both of them enrich my life in different ways, right?
455
00:45:08.782 --> 00:45:11.523
And so I do think it makes sense to meet people where they're at.
456
00:45:11.883 --> 00:45:24.187
And if people have time for audiobooks, and that's what will get them engaged, but may pique their interest into this deeper engagement with this concept of reading full on paper books, I actually think that's a pretty wise and strategic decision.
457
00:45:24.307 --> 00:45:26.789
It's also less commitment on his part, right?
458
00:45:26.849 --> 00:45:29.451
I mean, he has the experience of having written two other books.
459
00:45:29.531 --> 00:45:30.912
He knows what the process is.
460
00:45:32.433 --> 00:45:46.004
Pretty sure that, like, it came out that when Michelle Obama wrote her book, wrote, I say quote-unquote, because she had a ghostwriter write it, it came out that he had actually written his books.
461
00:45:46.124 --> 00:45:48.606
So he obviously knows how long that takes.
462
00:45:48.926 --> 00:45:53.610
But then also to, you know, second what you're saying, that because people aren't reading—
463
00:45:54.050 --> 00:45:56.952
We do know that they are listening to podcasts more and more.
464
00:45:57.092 --> 00:46:11.802
And obviously, he already has a well-established audience of people that are interested in him, interested in his life, interested in his book selections on a yearly basis, that this would be of interest to that demographic of people.
465
00:46:12.482 --> 00:46:19.164
And I'm sure there'll be all sorts of other people that don't usually listen to podcasts that, you know, are there purely to hear him talk.
466
00:46:19.404 --> 00:46:25.485
You know, I think, you know, he's one of the finest talkers out there, a great orator.
467
00:46:25.645 --> 00:46:29.646
So, you know, imagine just listening to Obama talk about like his book.
468
00:46:29.886 --> 00:46:33.507
I mean, he did the audio, the audio book versions of his own book.
469
00:46:33.587 --> 00:46:35.168
So which I've listened to.
470
00:46:36.288 --> 00:46:39.769
So that's like, you know, obviously a natural place for him to go.
471
00:46:40.149 --> 00:46:45.072
I think it's also interesting that like the Obama Center Presidential Library opened up this year.
472
00:46:45.672 --> 00:46:48.834
So obviously he now has a bit more time on his hands.
473
00:46:49.175 --> 00:46:55.519
And I think like you said, it is interesting that this is what he's focusing on, the reading and the intellect, right?
474
00:46:55.779 --> 00:47:02.063
He's always obviously valued that throughout his life and through the presidency.
475
00:47:03.163 --> 00:47:07.606
And I think it's great that at a time when we are seeing people not read as much books,
476
00:47:08.086 --> 00:47:15.052
Actually, I did see that today book sales have gone up this past year, which is pretty cool.
477
00:47:17.194 --> 00:47:26.001
But it is good to kind of bring back reading as a thing that people enjoy as a hobby and having those types of discussions.
478
00:47:26.341 --> 00:47:27.902
I do look forward to finding...
479
00:47:28.943 --> 00:47:46.465
seeing what it is that he says, not just about, you know, his own personal life, but how it fits into his worldview and how the rest of us can maybe learn a little bit more from that at a time when it does feel as if not everybody is as, you know, close as you would want us to be.
480
00:47:47.066 --> 00:47:55.337
Okay, so a couple lessons for me are that a celebrity cosign has now replaced the institution as a credible engine for cultural products.
481
00:47:55.917 --> 00:48:01.665
So what that means is that we're seeing more and more celebrities come out and talk about the things that they like, um,
482
00:48:02.565 --> 00:48:06.227
books, movies, and have those be recommendations that they put out there.
483
00:48:07.388 --> 00:48:15.292
And this is, you know, that's been solidified with, you know, Reese Witherspoon and her book club, Oprah, obviously, Dua Lipa.
484
00:48:15.492 --> 00:48:16.312
There's lots more.
485
00:48:16.332 --> 00:48:18.374
I heard that, you know, Kaya Gerber has her own.
486
00:48:19.074 --> 00:48:22.376
So we're seeing more celebrities kind of put out there the things that they enjoy.
487
00:48:22.396 --> 00:48:24.117
And here we have one of the
488
00:48:27.038 --> 00:48:35.102
Has, I guess, found it safe enough to be, you know, putting this out there and not be seen as like, you know, icky.
489
00:48:35.842 --> 00:48:38.643
I don't know how to explain it.
490
00:48:38.663 --> 00:48:40.784
Like where it's like beneath him to like do this.
491
00:48:41.064 --> 00:48:47.607
I think about this because we have, you know, this kind of a call to mind the whole Meghan Markle and Harry situation.
492
00:48:47.867 --> 00:48:55.352
Prince Harry, you know, wanting to do like the Netflix show and like a podcast and stuff, but then actually never really doing much with it.
493
00:48:55.392 --> 00:48:55.552
Right.
494
00:48:55.572 --> 00:49:02.297
Like Meghan Markle had her like interview show and she did it for a little bit, but then it kind of just, you know, went away.
495
00:49:03.178 --> 00:49:17.977
And I wonder if they had done more of a like this where it's like a closed capsule, like we're just talking about these six books and may come back for like a different podcast like later, whether it would have been more effective than try to have like an ongoing like, you know, interview show.
496
00:49:18.257 --> 00:49:26.380
So I think it is interesting that, you know, Obama didn't choose to do a like interview show per se, much like we're seeing other like celebrity podcasts do.
497
00:49:26.400 --> 00:49:32.202
But he's doing something that fits within his brand and like the way that he is perceived by us.
498
00:49:32.342 --> 00:49:32.522
Right.
499
00:49:32.542 --> 00:49:39.545
Where it's like it's still about him, but he is putting his life and the things that interest him in the context of things that interest him.
500
00:49:39.565 --> 00:49:40.245
Right.
501
00:49:40.485 --> 00:49:45.709
So for marketers, like, what are these things that, like, make sense for your brand to do, right?
502
00:49:45.749 --> 00:49:50.954
Like, it's not enough to just do a podcast show, do, like, an interview podcast show because everybody is doing them.
503
00:49:51.254 --> 00:49:54.176
But does it actually fit with how you want to portray yourself?
504
00:49:54.677 --> 00:49:56.038
And does it fit with your brand?
505
00:49:56.958 --> 00:50:00.521
You know, a lot of companies right now, it's just, like, seems like...
506
00:50:01.522 --> 00:50:07.403
the thing to do is just to start a podcast without really thinking about like, well, is this actually what people want from us?
507
00:50:07.643 --> 00:50:10.584
Are we actually going to get, you know, our audience to listen to us?
508
00:50:10.984 --> 00:50:12.944
And do they want this type of content?
509
00:50:13.204 --> 00:50:19.046
Or is there another type of content that we could be creating for them that will bring them to us a little bit more?
510
00:50:19.186 --> 00:50:30.308
And I think that this kind of, you know, shows that there are ways to think about, you know, what everybody's doing a podcast, but putting it in the context of your own personal brand that fits much better
511
00:50:32.068 --> 00:50:33.469
with like the audience that you're targeting.
512
00:50:33.709 --> 00:50:33.969
Yeah.
513
00:50:34.309 --> 00:50:37.870
No, I often think about even, you know, where do we apply our own efforts?
514
00:50:38.470 --> 00:50:46.432
And it's this, you know, great intersection of what the world needs, what we're passionate about, and what we can sustainably make money, make a living doing, right?
515
00:50:46.472 --> 00:50:48.652
Now, Obama's got, I'm sure, plenty of money.
516
00:50:49.032 --> 00:50:51.033
So he's trying to find that intersection, I think,
517
00:50:51.553 --> 00:50:56.575
of what does the world need and what is he passionate about in this moment that he can apply himself to.
518
00:50:56.956 --> 00:50:58.656
I think that's a good story for brands too.
519
00:50:59.157 --> 00:51:07.940
Value proposition is a customer's need and what value you can add to their lives and in that third circle in a sustainable way that makes you money.
520
00:51:07.960 --> 00:51:17.825
I think that's actually a very important consideration when thinking about launching new products or services is how are you actually meeting needs with the core of who you are.
521
00:51:18.585 --> 00:51:24.450
and what you're actually good at, and what is the reason to believe that you are the one who can actually provide that value?
522
00:51:24.670 --> 00:51:30.774
Yeah, I mean, there obviously is some monetary decisions that went into this, right?
523
00:51:30.794 --> 00:51:39.181
Because he went with Audible, as opposed to going in sub stack, direct to people, or just launching a podcast with a podcast partner.
524
00:51:40.682 --> 00:51:47.427
So that is another thing that is interesting, where it's still tying it to a book brand, you know?
525
00:51:47.587 --> 00:51:49.668
So moving on to the last topic.
526
00:51:49.868 --> 00:51:58.653
So the FAA hired gamers as air traffic controllers, which I think is like super interesting to think about how for two reasons.
527
00:51:58.894 --> 00:52:04.497
One is this whole idea that like, you know, video gaming was, you know, meant to be this like.
528
00:52:05.297 --> 00:52:09.400
I don't know, this thing that like our parents tried to like get us to not do.
529
00:52:09.820 --> 00:52:20.208
And here we go where it's become like a way to get a job because of the skills that you developed being a gamer.
530
00:52:21.229 --> 00:52:26.652
And I think it's also a way of showing that like...
531
00:52:28.895 --> 00:52:40.658
Thinking about skills and like upskilling and transferring those into a context that actually makes sense when you are open to like ideas.
532
00:52:40.738 --> 00:52:40.958
Right.
533
00:52:40.998 --> 00:52:56.041
So, you know, we do have to give a shout out here to Transportation Secretary Sean Duffy, who used a recruiting video to target video gamers directly in order to get to their hiring goal of hiring people.
534
00:52:56.561 --> 00:53:01.002
more than 2,000 air traffic controllers and having 2,000 more in the pipeline.
535
00:53:02.003 --> 00:53:17.127
Because, I mean, as of a couple months ago, we were hearing that there weren't enough people coming up through the air traffic controller pipeline or who had the skills or wanted to learn because people just didn't think of that as a job.
536
00:53:17.247 --> 00:53:21.789
And so they used the... And so they learned...
537
00:53:21.889 --> 00:53:22.589
When they learned...
538
00:53:22.609 --> 00:53:22.849
Sorry.
539
00:53:23.169 --> 00:53:28.331
And so when they learned that gamers had the skills that they needed, they went directly to go target them.
540
00:53:28.792 --> 00:53:33.994
And here we are with, you know, this like success story.
541
00:53:34.094 --> 00:53:39.616
And I think that this is such a good story to think about in the context of AI that we were talking about earlier.
542
00:53:39.636 --> 00:53:46.740
Because like, what are these skills, these baseline skills that you can take that people are investing in, you know, on their own time, right?
543
00:53:47.180 --> 00:53:49.941
Usually you're gaming as like a hobby hobby.
544
00:53:50.401 --> 00:53:53.202
It's not like you're on Twitch streaming or something.
545
00:53:53.222 --> 00:54:02.926
And then take those skills and put them into a context that actually works for the job that needs to be done.
546
00:54:03.967 --> 00:54:09.209
So I'm seeing both sides where some of the replies are super impressed that they have been able to do this.
547
00:54:09.509 --> 00:54:16.312
And other ones are terrified because it's like, are we really giving gamers these jobs that are meant to be important?
548
00:54:16.612 --> 00:54:28.316
But I think it was, like, really interesting because a lot of what the narrative was saying is that the reason why gamers are so good at this is because they can make quick decisions.
549
00:54:28.676 --> 00:54:34.378
And they're able to, like, see things in a variety of contexts that, like, don't...
550
00:54:36.460 --> 00:54:40.083
that usually most people don't have to like think about, right?
551
00:54:40.163 --> 00:54:46.389
Whereas like, you know, when you think about what it requires to be an air controller, it's like, oh yeah, the overlap makes sense.
552
00:54:47.330 --> 00:54:48.652
Like, you know, what it is that they do.
553
00:54:49.052 --> 00:54:50.253
So have you seen this, Jonathan?
554
00:54:50.273 --> 00:54:51.314
Would love to hear your thoughts.
555
00:54:52.055 --> 00:54:59.783
Well, this is another, I think, just great example of what would be a forum and an analogy to marketing myopia-averse job to be done.
556
00:54:59.803 --> 00:55:02.365
What are the product features of candidates?
557
00:55:02.866 --> 00:55:07.030
We often think about their features as the bachelor's degree and the GPA that they got.
558
00:55:07.490 --> 00:55:17.472
But would you want the star athlete who did great in college to be an air traffic controller if they can't stand sitting around and staring at a screen for eight hours a day?
559
00:55:17.492 --> 00:55:19.673
What actually is the job to be done?
560
00:55:19.833 --> 00:55:22.073
And I played a lot of video games growing up.
561
00:55:22.133 --> 00:55:27.855
And my parents and I actually always joked about how it made me so good at some of the things that I am good at.
562
00:55:28.195 --> 00:55:36.777
Because it taught critical thinking, solving puzzles, hand-eye coordination, and bringing along these other soft features of
563
00:55:37.817 --> 00:55:46.000
For an air traffic controller, again, the capacity to sit in front of a screen for a long time while still maintaining focus and making important decisions.
564
00:55:46.240 --> 00:55:48.921
I mean, that really is a clever and perfect fit, I think.
565
00:55:50.381 --> 00:55:52.922
Yeah, I think another thing here, too, is...
566
00:55:54.996 --> 00:56:02.260
how often we hear how difficult it is for government agencies to hire people and how long it takes.
567
00:56:03.161 --> 00:56:05.402
Because there are so many hoops that you have to jump through.
568
00:56:05.742 --> 00:56:13.307
You have to get your profiles to be written in a way that makes sense for like government jobs as opposed to other jobs that you're applying for.
569
00:56:13.707 --> 00:56:16.809
So it seems as this like kind of bypass that by...
570
00:56:19.067 --> 00:56:31.453
targeting the skills that they need most, spatial reasoning and split attention skills that the job actually requires and going direct to an audience that you know already has that.
571
00:56:31.593 --> 00:56:38.876
So I think, you know, it's super interesting as a marketing campaign to think about what are these types of
572
00:56:40.837 --> 00:56:51.503
you know, distribution channels that we have or that we can look for that will help us target our audience a little bit better than trying to, you know, spray and pray, right?
573
00:56:51.743 --> 00:56:53.864
Which never really works.
574
00:56:54.804 --> 00:56:57.846
So I think that that's like, you know, an interesting thing.
575
00:56:57.886 --> 00:57:02.188
And it's a rare example of the government, you know, matching the job requirements that
576
00:57:02.408 --> 00:57:03.990
to a non-obvious talent pool.
577
00:57:04.091 --> 00:57:11.742
And it's funny, because we've talked about this, not talked about this, but I've seen these stories in terms of gamers helping out with the military.
578
00:57:12.904 --> 00:57:18.151
But this seems a far, without this having to be
579
00:57:18.892 --> 00:57:26.518
they're, you know, out there, you know, using drones or whatever, which also is specialized skills, you don't have to sign up to go to the military.
580
00:57:26.538 --> 00:57:28.619
You can just be an air traffic controller, right?
581
00:57:28.879 --> 00:57:41.248
So I think this is a really cool way to, you know, get in front of people that you necessarily wouldn't have otherwise and recognizing how skilled, you know, these people actually are.
582
00:57:42.589 --> 00:57:43.670
And yeah, I don't get it.
583
00:57:43.690 --> 00:57:46.612
It gives me hope for the future where it's like...
584
00:57:47.292 --> 00:58:00.941
Are there other examples that we could be doing this for that we're just not seeing, you know, because we're, you know, thinking too narrowly or have like blinders on about, you know, skills and stuff?
585
00:58:02.264 --> 00:58:02.684
Right.
586
00:58:02.804 --> 00:58:09.105
And, you know, again, bringing it back to the very beginning, you know, AI and some of the fears of it taking people's jobs.
587
00:58:09.526 --> 00:58:19.248
Are we as a society just not creative enough to find the right kinds of jobs for the right kinds of people who actually would really benefit from a change in what they're currently doing?
588
00:58:19.568 --> 00:58:29.790
And so it's another reason to be optimistic if we only had the creativity and the optimism to find the roles that bring life to us that add value to the world as well.
589
00:58:29.990 --> 00:58:31.051
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
590
00:58:31.111 --> 00:58:44.546
Just thinking about it in the context of AI where it's like, you know, this would be kind of a use case to use for AI where it's like we kind of dissect down to like the marrow the...
591
00:58:46.067 --> 00:58:58.045
actual important skills that we need for particular jobs and then cross, you know, research other jobs that have similar requirements and then use that to then go in like target.
592
00:58:58.085 --> 00:58:58.225
Right.
593
00:58:58.525 --> 00:59:00.368
I often think about how this whole idea of.
594
00:59:01.109 --> 00:59:08.955
We need to retrain, you know, people to like have the skills that we need them for, you know, in this like digital economy.
595
00:59:09.096 --> 00:59:14.700
And sometimes it's easier to go to places that are already interested in that, right?
596
00:59:14.740 --> 00:59:16.001
They already have those.
597
00:59:16.922 --> 00:59:21.185
They've built it up themselves because they've been, you know, naturally curious about it because they're gamers.
598
00:59:22.346 --> 00:59:24.408
And look, you know, what a great fit that is.
599
00:59:24.468 --> 00:59:26.830
And like, what other examples are there that
600
00:59:27.510 --> 00:59:42.739
could be done in this way using AI, both in terms of just regular jobs that already exist, but then also in thinking about new ways that we could be using AI to help us.
601
00:59:42.999 --> 00:59:48.383
And then the human AI pairing up to enhance both abilities.
602
00:59:49.123 --> 00:59:58.686
So a couple of takeaways for, you know, for the whole episode are that the gap between your stated values and your actual behavior can be an expensive PR problem.
603
00:59:58.827 --> 01:00:08.350
So that's kind of, you know, what I was seeing with Zuckerberg talking about AI as like a democratic platform and wanting to open it up to everybody.
604
01:00:08.870 --> 01:00:16.918
um, paired up against how they act on a daily basis with Meta and Facebook and Instagram, particularly with like all their court cases.
605
01:00:17.518 --> 01:00:31.231
Um, so it's one thing to, you know, have nice messaging about like what you want the future to look like, but then if you're going around and acting the opposite in, you know, how you relate to, um,
606
01:00:32.412 --> 01:00:38.217
in how your main company and your main business function is actually working, then you're gonna get questioned.
607
01:00:38.557 --> 01:00:45.203
And that's one thing that like, you know, to think about like, are your values actually aligning with what you're saying you're doing?
608
01:00:45.663 --> 01:00:47.004
Or do you need to, you know,
609
01:00:48.486 --> 01:00:50.668
look at both and see what needs to be fixed.
610
01:00:50.948 --> 01:00:58.595
For now, I think it works for him to have a big vision view of the world in terms of AI, because it is still new.
611
01:00:59.536 --> 01:01:06.643
But, you know, he should also expect people to take it with a grain of salt because of everything that's happened with Meta and Facebook.
612
01:01:07.363 --> 01:01:26.880
And another one is that we're seeing with Southwest and Bumble is that your differentiator can become detrimental to you and your product, especially if your consumer is not actually coming to you for that reason and want something bigger from you.
613
01:01:26.900 --> 01:01:27.360
Yeah.
614
01:01:28.515 --> 01:01:43.300
Um, we'll see what happens with Bumble, but seeing what happened with Southwest gives me, you know, hope or I'm a bit optimistic that it'll work out in their favor because I don't think that, you know, women reaching out to men was the main reason why their target customer was coming to them.
615
01:01:46.112 --> 01:01:55.974
And then for the last one is that skills-based framing is always a better story than credentials-based framing.
616
01:01:57.634 --> 01:02:01.655
So the fact that they, you know, hired gamers is the headline.
617
01:02:01.935 --> 01:02:10.116
But what, you know, we actually see behind the scenes is like how they were able to create a targeted marketing campaign for the type of skills that they needed.
618
01:02:10.676 --> 01:02:15.157
So think about like what are these ways that we can find other, you know,
619
01:02:15.657 --> 01:02:29.983
to find target, you know, audiences that want our product or service that might not see it in that way until you talk about it in a way that puts, um, their skills and like their attributes in a way that like, um, makes sense to them.
620
01:02:30.123 --> 01:02:41.247
And I think that that's what, you know, really worked out here where it's like, you're targeting these people saying like, we're looking for people that have spatial awareness and that, you know, can make quick, you know, um, time decisions.
621
01:02:41.828 --> 01:02:42.008
Um,
622
01:02:42.728 --> 01:02:59.248
And recognizing that video games do that and then going out and targeting them specifically and having that be, you know, super successful because they see themselves in how you're targeting them and not just, you know, another government job that, you know, isn't cool for them.
623
01:03:00.570 --> 01:03:01.351
Any takeaways from you?
624
01:03:02.275 --> 01:03:06.942
Yeah, it's just, for me, it always just comes down to value creation.
625
01:03:07.363 --> 01:03:13.832
When you think about business and marketing and job alignment or AI, whatever it is.
626
01:03:14.173 --> 01:03:17.458
And so I see in these various stories with the application of
627
01:03:18.178 --> 01:03:32.590
a more open AI framework down to opening up your product feature and not being so limited with Bumble and to even selling the product of a job to a specific target audience of gamers.
628
01:03:33.110 --> 01:03:40.296
I think that's the magic that it takes a human to really do well is to find that intersection of...
629
01:03:41.357 --> 01:03:52.026
the job to be done, the problem to be solved, and the value that a particular organization can add, and then leveraging the right kind of targeting, the right kind of messaging.
630
01:03:52.787 --> 01:03:56.069
You can call that all marketing, you can call it branding, you can call it whatever you want.
631
01:03:56.249 --> 01:04:04.616
But it's how do you get the right message in front of the right person at the right time in a way that helps them realize that your service is going to make their life better.
632
01:04:05.698 --> 01:04:08.722
And so, again, I think all this comes down to value creation.
633
01:04:08.803 --> 01:04:13.670
And it's fun to take a look at the various stories of what's going on in the world.
634
01:04:13.751 --> 01:04:16.675
And I definitely try to take an optimistic view on what's to come.
635
01:04:16.856 --> 01:04:17.677
Yeah, definitely.
636
01:04:18.017 --> 01:04:19.139
Well, thank you so much, Jonathan.
637
01:04:19.159 --> 01:04:19.961
Where can people find you?
638
01:04:20.677 --> 01:04:26.160
Yeah, I'm on LinkedIn pretty actively, but my website is jonathanklo.com.
639
01:04:26.520 --> 01:04:30.162
J-O-N-A-T-H-A-N-K-L-O.com.
640
01:04:30.562 --> 01:04:32.122
You can find links to my social media.
641
01:04:32.182 --> 01:04:34.324
I'm on TikTok there, at jonathanklo.
642
01:04:34.344 --> 01:04:40.627
I've got a newsletter around strategic frameworks, and you can find my book there as well.
643
01:04:40.767 --> 01:04:41.067
Awesome.
644
01:04:41.207 --> 01:04:46.329
And then you can follow me at Sonia Bechez everywhere and the podcast at Meme Team Pod on YouTube, Spotify, and TikTok.
645
01:04:46.729 --> 01:04:47.210
Thank you.
646
01:04:47.250 --> 01:04:47.790
See you next week.