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Welcome to Meditations on Leadership.
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I'm Don Carpenter.
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Let me ask you, what if saying I'm sorry is not the completion of accountability, but only its beginning?
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And what if the real measure of an apology is not how sincerely we offer it, but whether the people around us experience something different from us afterwards?
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And what becomes possible in an organization when leaders are willing to circle back on their impact of their behavior and make changes necessary to become more trustworthy.
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These questions bring us into this week's meditation and into a reflection on the difference between expressing regret and taking responsibility.
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Exploring tensions like these is at the heart of this podcast.
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Each week begins with a meditation, followed by a personal reflection, and then a conversation with a guest whose lived experience helps bring the theme to life.
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All in the service of the inner formation leadership asks of us.
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And today I'm especially excited to have this conversation with Stephanie Welch.
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Stephanie is the executive director of Trekkers, an organization that has been a deeply meaningful part of my life for almost 30 years.
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Because I care so much about its mission, its people, and its future, it brings me real joy to see someone with Stephanie's experience, values, and commitment leading the organization today.
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She brings more than 25 years of experience helping young people, families, and communities grow stronger and more resilient.
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Her career began in public health with a focus on community engagement and health equity.
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She later led a nonprofit organization in Tennessee that partnered closely with public schools to support young people from birth through high school graduation.
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Stephanie is also a retired Army major and served her community and public office as both an elected city council member and deputy mayor of Knoxville, Tennessee.
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She holds a bachelor's degree in the University of New Hampshire, along with a master's degree in public health and nutrition from the University of Tennessee.
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What I appreciate most about Stephanie is the way she brings all that experience into her leadership at Trekkers with warmth, clarity, and a deep respect for relationships.
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She's helping the organization continue to grow while staying grounded in the long-term commitment to young people and families that has always been at the heart of the work.
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Stephanie and her partner Mark live in South Thomaston, Maine, with their two scruffy rescue dogs, Sprout and Truffle.
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I'm truly grateful to have her join me for this conversation.
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Stephanie, welcome to the show.
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Thanks so much, Don.
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It's such an honor to be here.
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I can't even tell you.
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Thank you.
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Thanks for that great introduction.
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Oh, you're welcome.
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Um, I look forward to the conversation too, but let's uh put a pin in it for a second as I share meditation 30 from my forthcoming book titled Accountability That Heals.
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And for you, the listening audience, you should know that Stephanie picked this theme for our conversation today.
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So I begin this meditation with a quote that is somewhat of a familiar saying.
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I've heard it a number of times, but most recently in the last year or two, by Adam Grant.
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And the quote is the best apology is changed behavior.
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The best apology is changed behavior.
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About four years into leading educational expeditions with teenagers, I lost my cold with a student.
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We were 10 days into a 14-day trip with eighth graders.
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It was over 90 degrees, everyone was tired, patience was thin.
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One of the boys had been disrespecting another student, someone with less social capital and standing within the group.
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Then I watched it happen again.
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And I snapped.
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But the way I handled it was wrong.
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In that moment, I could see something change in his face.
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I could see the trust in me begin to dissolve.
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After I cooled down, I circled back with him and I asked if he would be willing to talk.
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And thankfully, he was open to it.
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I apologized for raising my voice.
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I told him that my concern about what happened what had happened did not excuse the way I treated him.
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The heat did not excuse it, the exhaustion did not excuse it.
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My frustration did not excuse it.
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We had an important conversation that day, but the apology did not restore everything.
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It took another year before I felt like we were truly good again.
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That experience taught me something I've carried with me in my leadership ever since.
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An apology may begin the repair, but it cannot complete it.
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Trust does not return because we found the right words.
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Trust returns through consistency, through experience, through the other person seeing that something in us has actually changed.
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That incident also taught me something about myself.
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I realized that I react strongly when I see popular boys using their social power to diminish boys who are less popular.
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That instinct came from a good place.
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But even a good instinct can cause harm when it is not managed well.
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So on future expedition, I talked openly with my leadership teams about it.
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I asked them to help me notice when my frustration may be rising.
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We made plans for how we would intervene and who might step in and join me in talking with a student.
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My changed behavior was not simply promising myself that I would never raise my voice again.
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It was building accountability around the part of me most likely to lose perspective.
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That is what many apologies are missing.
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An apology says, I recognize that I hurt you.
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Accountability asks, what will I do differently so this does not happen again?
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Too often leaders never do the circle back.
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They are embarrassed, they want the moment to pass, they hope everyone else will move on too.
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But the person who was hurt may still be standing in the moment that the leader is trying to leave behind.
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Healing begins when we return, when we name what happened, when we own the impact, when we stop defending our intent, and when we make the changes necessary to become more trustworthy.
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The person we harm does not owe us an immediate forgiveness.
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They do not owe us reassurance, but we owe them changed behavior.
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In the end, our integrity will not be measured by how many mistakes, few mistakes we made.
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It will be measured by what we did after we made them.
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Whether we protected our pride or repaired what we could, whether we tried to forget or choose to circle back, and whether our apology became the end of the conversation or the beginning of real change.
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And that is where healing begins by holding ourselves accountable.
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So I just want to offer a quick personal reflection here.
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But knowing what accountability requires does not make it an easy practice.
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Sometimes the greatest barrier for me personally is shame.
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For much of my life, when I realized that something I had said or done had hurt someone, my first instinct was to defend myself.
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I wanted to explain what I meant before fully understanding the impact I had caused.
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Then, of course, once shame arrived, I wanted to be outside of my body.
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I wanted to withdraw.
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Through therapy over the years, I began to understand that forgiving myself was not the same as excusing myself.
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Excusing myself allowed me to avoid responsibility.
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Forgiving myself allowed me to remain present long enough to face it.
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I also began to see how often my need for control got in the way.
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When I was focused on controlling how others saw me, I became more concerned with proving that I was not a bad person than with listening to the person I had hurt.
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That is also where perfection entered the picture.
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When shame tells us that making a mistake means there is something wrong with who we are, perfectionism becomes a form of protection.
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It convinces us that if we can just get everything right, we will never have to feel exposed or face the possibility that we have caused harm.
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As Brene Brown says, if shame is driving the car, perfectionism is riding shotgun.
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But perfection was and never is going to be possible.
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And the more I needed to appear as though I had gotten everything right, the harder it became to admit when I had not.
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Accountability required me to step out of that pattern.
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I had to learn that causing harm did not mean I was beyond repair.
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It meant I had something to own, something to learn, and perhaps something to make right.
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Self-forgiveness gave me the courage to circle back and apologize without controlling the outcome.
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The person may not forgive us.
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That part belongs to them.
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Accountability, though, still belongs to us and to me.
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Self-forgiveness does not release us from that responsibility.
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However, it allows us to stay present long enough to face it.
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So, Stephanie, as you listen to the meditation and the reflection, curious as what resonated, what stirred in you, what stayed with you.
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Yeah, thanks so much, Don.
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First of all, that was beautiful.
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And as I was listening to your reflection, I um I felt like you were you were talking about me.
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I mean, I just feel like the commonality is there.
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Um as I was preparing for this morning, the thing that continued to come to mind as I thought about accountability that heals is, you know, sort of what gets in the way.
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And shame is the is the word that I wrote down.
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Shame is, you know, says that I am bad.
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I and it's it that's not the same as saying I did something bad or I did something hurtful, and I can own that for myself.
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I can forgive myself for that, which your reflections on self-forgiveness just really resonated with me.
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That's very hard.
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And then I can do something about it.
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I can I can go circle back.
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I I'm not gonna control how the other person responds to that, but I can circle back and I can continue to circle back and I can um do everything in my power to change my behavior to build that trust back.
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So I that it it just really resonated with me, this idea of of shame as a really significant barrier to um to accountability that is healing accountability.
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So yeah, it spoke to me.
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Yeah, thank you.
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It's interesting to me, you know, this work that you have done over 30 years of just basically being in service of people, and well, and I think about my career as well, it's all been in the the part of wanting to support, help, empower.
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Um, and I think the challenge for me has been how is it possible that I would get hurt hurt someone in that process when my whole ethos is to do just the opposite.
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And I'm curious when you think about this idea of accountability at uh uh that heals, where does your mind go first?
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I think you know, where my mind where my mind went first when I looked at the topic was organizational culture is really important to me.
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So it wasn't for me initially as much about the individual, although as I really started reflecting on it, I realized that that is really where it starts, is those interpersonal relationships.
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But I I'm just gonna admit that where my mind went first was more around organizational culture, um, which is something that just is really important to me.
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I think that culture is for me personally the most important uh aspect of being an effective organization and doing good work.
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So what I was thinking about is as a leader, where I've gone wrong, where I've seen um others go wrong, where I feel like I've made you know good decisions to set the example as a leader around culture that creates learning versus culture that causes people to hide their mistakes because of shame.
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You know, I've seen both of those things.
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So I think when I looked at the topic first on, that's that's where my mind went.
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And I think there's a whole conversation around that that we might explore.
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But then as I started thinking about it more, it it made me realize or it sort of reminded me of my own patterns of shame that that do get in the way, that still get in the way.
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Even though I'm I have some awareness that this is not a healthy behavior and doesn't set a good example and creates shame in others, that my own patterns of shame sometimes have prevented me and probably still prevent me on not so good days from taking, you know, sort of sort of forgiving myself and then taking accountability in a way that helps that healing process move along, if that makes sense.
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Yeah, it does make sense.
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And I really appreciate that.
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I because I do think the topic of uh from an organizational cultural perspective, it's definitely a major topic.
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But when I think about the premise of the podcast itself, is this idea that the journey of leadership begins within.
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I think about and I name this idea of circling back.
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And what I have found is that I have to circle back with myself first, because I have to deal with that barrier, that that thing that wants to keep me from you know circling back with the other, but I have to do it in a way that um I don't need something from that person in order to make myself feel better.
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And at that point, I have to kind of do this work on my own.
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So at the at the heart of what you brought up and and this theme is the idea of self-awareness, yeah, having enough self-awareness in our own lives, both as people but also professionals, to recognize in this case that we both named that shame is one of the areas that stop us from moving forward with that circle back, whether it's in the work culture or with its with friends, family, and others.
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Can you think of a time where what did you do to find that self-awareness?
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Was it somebody you trusted that pointed this out?
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Something you read that kind of said, ah, that's language for what I'm trying to figure out.
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Like, where did you, if you can name it, um, how did you become self-aware?
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Yeah, well, I'm not always.
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I mean, I was just gonna be self-aware enough to admit that I'm not always self-aware.
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Although I will say that I feel like just culturally, women are are sort of, you know, culturally raised to be very sensitive and self-aware.
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And I feel like particularly my own childhood, I was raised by the most wonderful parents who I adore.
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And we live in a culture where punishment, blame, and shame, particularly, you know, I don't I won't say particularly, but that was sort of part of the the upbringing that I was part of.
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So I feel like as an adult, therapy has helped.
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I have had some very good mentors.
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And just generally, Dawn, I I'm sure you feel this too.
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When when I have hurt someone, I feel pain.
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I mean, I I've I it's physical for me when I realize like, oh gosh, that was just I I harmed um someone.
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Yeah.
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And so there's that level of like, oh, I harmed someone.
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And then there's a when that self-awareness hits, I feel like I've learned along the way, like there are choices that you can make.
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So this when you when I've hurt someone, shame typically immediately follows.
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And so there's this sort of this self-punishment, and the pathways uh of options in front of you at that in front of me at that point are I'm just gonna bury it and move on and pretend it didn't happen.
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That's one option.
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And you know, I think we uh both know that that that's not accountability and it isn't doesn't lead to healing.
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And I think that I have found that just being willing to be vulnerable as a leader, I was really afraid to be vulnerable.
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I was a very young, I I was moved into leadership positions at a very young age.
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And so, particularly that gender dynamic and age dynamic made it very difficult for me to be vulnerable for a variety of reasons that we could talk about.
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But over time, I think there was I had a mentor in a position where I saw that vulnerability could completely shift the entire conversation in a more positive direction.
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And once I realized that, it is still really scary when I feel that I've hurt someone, when I see the choices in front of me.
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And then it's like diving over a cliff to be that vulnerable person to say, oh my gosh, I did wrong.
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And here's what I feel like I did that was wrong.
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And I want to acknowledge that.
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And I want to give, you know, I want to give an opportunity to, you know, hear your feedback.
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Did I get that?
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Am I right?
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Was that wrong?
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You know, allow that conversation to happen.
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And then I'm sorry, I'm going to do better and really try to practice that.
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So that was a long, long thing that I just said, but it's um it's a journey.
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Maybe I'll just stop there.
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Well, I really appreciate you taking uh me and us on that journey because I uh do think that this is a topic area that there's no silver bullet on this one uh to like quick fix, you know, if you're somebody that um is definitely somebody that feels the room and feels people and and that sort of thing.
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And I'm curious your um army major.
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Yeah.
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And I'm curious about army culture when it comes to this topic area of the idea of apology or saying I'm sorry, or holding one's accountable for actions that are at the heart level versus actionable steps within the protocol of whatever assignment that you know your your, I don't know if it's a platoon, but your um your unit is taking on.
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Can you speak to how you navigated all that?
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And was there some good models for that in the army?
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I don't want to make a general statement to say it's not there.
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Sure, sure.
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There were all sorts of models, good, bad, and you know, people are people.
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And and I guess maybe what I can say about that is that it all comes down to relationship, right?
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So whether it's in a nonprofit organization or in city government or in the military, relationships, if relationships are at the heart of everything that you do, it really translates across all of those environments.
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So I can definitely think of times when your your story of sort of snapping or you know, you know, your reaction to uh the youth situation that you were dealing with, it it resonated with me with the soldiers who I was responsible for, and that I had similar reactions um on more than one occasion.
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And some I probably didn't handle very well, and others I do remember circling back and saying, I didn't handle that very well.
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And I'm sorry, and I didn't set a good example, and just because we're in the military, that does not mean that we need to behave in aggressive, punitive ways towards each other.
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And I had leaders who exemplified that, and I had others who did not.
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So it it really is not, it may not be a frame a setting that really fosters that, but I certainly think that if relationships are at the heart of what you do, you can carry that with you regardless of the setting.
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Yeah.
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So if I'm I'm just gonna repeat back to you what I heard that the idea that uh if relationships are a value, uh one's value system is based on um, that I really believe in having strong relationships within whatever dimension of my life, whether it's professional or or personal, that having that perspective can carry throughout all those sectors.
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And that the idea that knowing that you value relationships so strongly, you're gonna make it a priority to make sure that if there are relationships that are unaligned based on results of perhaps of your own behavior, you're gonna find a way to circle back.
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And that is a value of yours professionally, but also personally.
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Yes, I think that is well stated.
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And I'm and I don't always do it well, but it is a value, and I practice, and the word practice means sometimes you get it right and sometimes you leave areas for improvement.
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Yes.
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Well, uh the thing about life is it just keeps giving us opportunities to build our muscle on this.
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So exactly exactly when you think um about a meaningful apology from a leader, what does it need to include?
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That is a very good question.
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I think that I well, I mean, I think the first the first thing is just that I got that wrong.
00:27:26.960 --> 00:27:29.599
I mean, I I got that wrong.
00:27:29.839 --> 00:27:31.440
That was not right.
00:27:32.720 --> 00:27:35.119
And for that, I am very sorry.
00:27:35.279 --> 00:27:40.720
I mean, I think it really does come with I apologize, I am sorry, I regret that.
00:27:41.359 --> 00:27:49.200
I think that it's also a hopefully a conversation that doesn't carry expectations with it.
00:27:49.359 --> 00:28:05.200
It gives space for the other person to you know share what that harm did to them, um, but it doesn't require that in order for the conversation to come to a conclusion.
00:28:05.359 --> 00:28:26.000
It may be just as much as I got that wrong, and from and from my perspective, I believe this is how I got it wrong, and I am truly sorry, and I am going to do something different, whatever that is, and again, provides that person the opportunity to debrief that as well.
00:28:26.160 --> 00:28:28.559
So that's from my own perspective.
00:28:28.720 --> 00:28:32.799
If it is something that I feel like I have I have done wrong.
00:28:33.039 --> 00:28:44.480
Now, I think there also as a leader is um we also are responsible for holding, for helping others develop their own sense of accountability.
00:28:45.279 --> 00:28:50.400
So there's also that perspective, which I could share, but that may be another question.
00:28:50.720 --> 00:28:53.759
Well, no, say say a little more about it while we're on that topic.
00:28:54.079 --> 00:29:10.720
Yeah, I mean, I think that um the first thing I think about when I think about creating a culture of accountability and a culture of learning is that example of being vulnerable, saying when you get it wrong, even if it's not in the moment, if it's circling back.
00:29:10.960 --> 00:29:13.519
So setting the example is part of that.
00:29:13.920 --> 00:29:26.000
But I also think that there are times as leaders that we have to make sure that folks know when they have gotten it wrong, if they're not recognizing that in themselves.
00:29:26.319 --> 00:29:40.960
And so um I feel like those conversations have to come in multiple parts in order to create the safety required for people to feel comfortable being vulnerable.
00:29:41.119 --> 00:29:42.160
So, what do I mean by that?
00:29:42.319 --> 00:29:47.759
In practice, what I mean is the first conversation is what happened.
00:29:48.240 --> 00:29:52.799
Let's just have a conversation about what just happened without bringing blame to it.
00:29:52.960 --> 00:30:00.400
It's not you did something wrong and we're gonna talk about it, but it's like, let's just have a conversation about what just happened.
00:30:00.799 --> 00:30:10.079
And as that, you know, the conversation may go in different directions, but that may build into, okay, well, how could that have happened differently?
00:30:10.559 --> 00:30:18.079
And oftentimes people will discover their their own place in that without the leader having to point it out.
00:30:18.400 --> 00:30:20.319
And then that ends.
00:30:21.119 --> 00:30:30.480
If there's disciplinary action or some type of action that is required organizationally to follow up, that's another conversation.
00:30:30.640 --> 00:30:32.079
They should not be paired.
00:30:32.240 --> 00:30:33.920
I feel really strongly about that.
00:30:34.240 --> 00:30:35.839
Two separate conversations.
00:30:36.160 --> 00:30:42.319
Debrief, then if discipline is required or some type of action, that's a separate conversation.
00:30:42.480 --> 00:30:50.079
Otherwise, the shame is too closely linked to the to whatever happened.
00:30:50.319 --> 00:30:51.839
That's my perspective, Don.
00:30:52.160 --> 00:31:12.160
So the idea that you're bringing up is that when you are as a leader within your organization, something happens where there isn't necessarily some self-awareness around it with one of the people who are working within the organization.
00:31:12.559 --> 00:31:25.599
And you, as a director or supervisor, or manager or whatever it might be, has to bring some sense of self-awareness, has to become a mirror for this.
00:31:25.680 --> 00:31:48.319
And and the first step is what you're naming is that the first step is is creating the conditions where that first conversation can happen, where somebody can kind of have an aha moment where they're like, ah, maybe I didn't see it, or maybe I I need time to think about that, but that's a good point.
00:31:48.480 --> 00:32:03.039
And what you're saying is that you wouldn't, as a second step in that moment, begin to talk about, okay, because this happened, this means, you know, a behavior management plan.
00:32:03.119 --> 00:32:05.440
This going in your file, this is whatever.
00:32:05.519 --> 00:32:13.920
It's let's sit on this, let it percolate, and let's circle back with each other in a couple of days or whatever it might be.
00:32:14.640 --> 00:32:14.960
Yes.
00:32:15.119 --> 00:32:18.480
And obviously, it depends on the severity of the situation, et cetera.
00:32:18.720 --> 00:32:35.599
But I feel like building the accountability muscle is a collaborative process, and it doesn't come from a leader um imposing shame and discipline on those that they're in a relationship with in their organization.
00:32:35.920 --> 00:32:38.960
So yes, you reflected that really well.
00:32:39.839 --> 00:32:54.559
Yeah, it's um, you know, another dynamic that that I really appreciate the fact that you are what I think you're naming in some ways is that there's a process that starts.
00:32:55.279 --> 00:33:28.640
And that if you get the process right and don't force it, let it unfold and trust that process, again, depending on the severity of what happened, but that that you're not trying to get the process all cleaned up at the end of one conversation and a neat bow, but you're trusting the process that over time this is gonna be a real teachable moment if I can just gently begin to bring a mirror to some of these things, but also some accountability as well.
00:33:28.880 --> 00:34:00.079
I think one of the challenges um that happens in many organizations that I've certainly witnessed myself has been where I am managing somebody who's managing a number of other people, and they are having some real hard times because some injury happened within the system, and they want to come to me and say, This injury happened, and I'm really upset.
00:34:00.720 --> 00:34:03.200
And what do you think we should do?
00:34:03.839 --> 00:34:35.599
Because we're we're at a director level, and um, you know, uh that's another teachable moment because it's not necessarily mine to hold again, depending on the severity of the situation, but that's another teachable moment to begin to sh to redirect to say, what can you do about it to to at least express that, or if your ability to circle back to say, you know, I'm really sorry.
00:34:35.840 --> 00:34:39.519
It's an interesting thing uh as people kind of move through this.
00:34:39.679 --> 00:35:01.360
And I always say that, you know, people don't leave great organizations, they leave really poor managers, and that usually is in that space of somewhere there's an injury, but that's not being dealt with, or there's not enough accountability to kind of deal with it.
00:35:01.760 --> 00:35:04.480
Anything come up there for you as you think about that?
00:35:04.880 --> 00:35:06.719
Yeah, actually, it really does.
00:35:07.199 --> 00:35:28.000
It really does, because um I'm just thinking, you know, again, and I know this is a whole other conversation, but what came to mind when I saw the topic was a particular experience I had with an organization where there had been a lot of trauma in the organization before I stepped into a leadership position.
00:35:28.559 --> 00:35:41.119
And so it wasn't necessarily trauma that I had been part of, you know, creating or inflicting, or you know, but that didn't matter.
00:35:42.239 --> 00:35:43.119
That didn't matter.
00:35:43.360 --> 00:36:00.639
So even I I completely agree with you that people don't leave really great organizations, they might leave really poor managers, but even even in that situation where it wasn't really the trauma that I had created, it still had to be addressed.
00:36:00.800 --> 00:36:05.039
I couldn't ignore it and just say, oh no, you got a new leader now.
00:36:05.199 --> 00:36:06.880
We could forget all of that.
00:36:07.360 --> 00:36:13.199
Um, it was really important to, I mean, I had to take accountability for that.
00:36:13.360 --> 00:36:29.920
As the organizational leader, I still had to take accountability and go through the process of healing with the organization, even though it was not my particular harm that I had inflicted.
00:36:30.400 --> 00:36:34.400
And I have subsequently, Don, been part of organizations.
00:36:34.639 --> 00:36:37.519
This is not Trekkers, I'm really not talking about Trekkers.
00:36:37.760 --> 00:36:52.400
This is another organization that I worked with subsequently, where there was trauma and the leader didn't acknowledge it, and it just continued, and then it became that leader's issue to deal with then at that point.
00:36:52.480 --> 00:37:09.440
It was so I've seen it happen a couple of different ways, and I don't know if that makes sense, but that was what occurred to me when I read the the you know, accountability that heals was I thought about that example and how important it was as a leader to take that on.
00:37:09.519 --> 00:37:12.719
And I think we could take that in a lot of different directions, but yeah.
00:37:13.199 --> 00:37:56.480
So in that case, you enter an organization that's been through that, and what you recognize immediately as you get in there, like there's some things that need to be healed, and the way to heal it is through a system-wide accountability to not necessarily fully the past, but accountability to build trust that this is never this injury is never gonna happen again, which gets to the the meditation itself, is that you know, one the the sorry part is the beginning of the process, the accountability to make sure that the conditions are different moving forward.
00:37:57.199 --> 00:37:58.400
I think that's perfect.
00:37:58.559 --> 00:38:05.199
Yeah, I hadn't even thought about it that way, but I think that that is a great marriage of that example with the meditation.
00:38:05.440 --> 00:38:06.400
Absolutely.
00:38:07.280 --> 00:38:14.480
Well, I I'm gonna turn the uh microphone over to you to see if there's a question on this topic you have for me.
00:38:15.760 --> 00:38:30.400
One of the things that I was reflecting on is this idea of punishment and how you know punishment plays into shame, and then that gets in the way of healing accountability.
00:38:30.719 --> 00:39:00.400
And I guess I was wondering if you have some sort of thoughts on how as a leader you can help not just in yourself identify that um that cycle, but how you can help the folks who you're responsible for mentoring identify that in themselves and sort of help them process through that to come to a better place.
00:39:01.360 --> 00:39:25.599
So if I'm hearing you correctly, how how would I go about helping somebody either on my team or a young person I'm mentoring begin to recognize or deal with this topic of shame when it comes to their own lives or the organizational culture?
00:39:25.840 --> 00:39:27.199
Yeah, okay.
00:39:28.239 --> 00:39:36.159
Yeah, well, so interesting because you did name this piece about punishment.
00:39:36.559 --> 00:40:18.480
So, you know, I think 90% of the time somebody is somewhat self-aware or they feel it in their soul or something, that they know that whatever they did was hurtful at some level of their lives, but because of the punishment factor, perhaps within their own um family origin or whatever it might be, that they just are like, I'm gonna try to get away with this because or I don't want to deal with it because I don't want to have to feel the brunt of that, and which leads to a lot of fear and guilt.
00:40:19.360 --> 00:40:57.119
And um one of the things that I have tried to do in each one of those cases when I'm dealing with somebody that is um shame prone, prone to shame, like I have been, as because I can recognize it pretty quickly now, mainly because I recognized it within myself, is that so much of this is whether or not this person feels like they trust me personally enough that whatever might come up, I'm not gonna turn my back.
00:40:58.719 --> 00:41:12.639
And now, again, there are certain limitations within organizations that you have to, you know, necessarily have to create some boundaries and maybe sometimes uh end the the employment.
00:41:12.880 --> 00:41:24.159
But I'm talking about like youth and thinking about young people who are prone to shame due to whatever situations they're coming in, systems, family systems that they're in.
00:41:24.400 --> 00:41:26.880
What do I do to help support that?
00:41:27.039 --> 00:41:45.679
Well, the beautiful thing about this model, as you know, is six years, and so you have a lot of time to build the conditions and the relationship in a way that can slowly let them know that they may have made a poor decision, but that doesn't make them a bad person.
00:41:46.239 --> 00:41:56.320
And that is something that they don't trust right away, they don't trust that at all because there's so foreign to their system.
00:41:56.480 --> 00:42:01.760
It's like you you have done a bad thing that makes you a really bad person.
00:42:02.320 --> 00:42:27.519
So just the consistency of showing up over and over and over again has really at the core of it been the thing that has really made that possible, where someone begins to say like they're not ashamed of themselves, even though we can work through a really hard thing.
00:42:27.760 --> 00:42:57.599
And I have to say that, you know, and working with kids for 30 plus years, I want to say it prepared me really well to have three stepchildren, but you know, that's a whole nother level of uh making sure that however I'm responding to something that it never gets to, you may have done something that did not serve the situation, but it doesn't mean that you are a bad person.
00:42:58.079 --> 00:43:07.679
And that's you know, you you got to be on your tiptoes for sure uh uh every day, um, because there's just so much happening.
00:43:07.920 --> 00:43:13.039
There's just so much emotion out there in the world and um and that sort of thing.
00:43:13.199 --> 00:43:21.360
I will say one other thing that I found really helpful as a practical matter, especially within the organizational culture.
00:43:21.519 --> 00:43:28.239
And it really, again, I'm sure the audience either loves it or is tired of it.
00:43:28.320 --> 00:43:33.599
I don't know, but I I really am a big fan of Brene Brown.
00:43:33.679 --> 00:43:39.039
And she just wrote this book, account uh Strong Ground, uh, around leadership.
00:43:39.360 --> 00:44:08.320
And she talks about this idea of a above and below the line practice that we, anybody within the organization, once it's shared, once it's understood, this practice, that we either respond to whatever's showing up in a Way where we're kind of our next action is either above or below the line.
00:44:08.559 --> 00:44:10.880
And the line itself is fear.
00:44:11.440 --> 00:44:21.760
And we can know that we're in a fear response when you know we see ourselves as the hero, or we see ourselves as the villain, or we see ourselves as a victim.
00:44:22.639 --> 00:44:28.320
And in that case, it's like that happened to me, blah, blah, blah.
00:44:28.480 --> 00:44:30.719
And a fear response comes out.
00:44:30.960 --> 00:44:42.000
And what she talks about is that one key point of teaching this model across organizations is that it gives language to something for people to understand.
00:44:42.079 --> 00:44:52.559
And I think that's one of the things that's lacking in organizational culture, but also in humanity, is that we don't all have the same language or a language to name some of these things.
00:44:52.800 --> 00:45:02.960
And so then she says anything above the line, we become uh our response is more in a challenger, coach, a guide, you know, a creator.
00:45:03.679 --> 00:45:14.719
And you're responding to something from that um that ground versus this fear-based response where people are really uh spiraling.
00:45:14.880 --> 00:45:17.679
And I think that that piece is really helpful.
00:45:17.840 --> 00:45:22.320
Um, I wish I would have known it a lot earlier, but it does name some things that I always felt.
00:45:22.400 --> 00:45:28.000
And I think we we name shame, the two of us, but fear is another one, right?
00:45:28.079 --> 00:45:33.119
That keeps us from going back and uh that sort of thing.
00:45:33.280 --> 00:45:36.960
So anyway, that went a couple different places, but that's what comes to mind.
00:45:37.199 --> 00:45:38.400
You have any follow-ups on that?
00:45:39.280 --> 00:45:40.559
I I think that's great, Don.
00:45:40.800 --> 00:45:48.960
I mean, I think what that made me think about is sort of the opposite of that fear and shame is you know, safety and trust.
00:45:49.199 --> 00:45:55.519
And so, how do you, as we you know, I'm always thinking about this myself.
00:45:55.920 --> 00:46:08.960
How do I create the conditions that for people to feel safe enough to fail, for people to feel safe enough to admit and to take that accountability?
00:46:09.199 --> 00:46:11.599
And you do that through building trust.
00:46:11.840 --> 00:46:33.840
And trust comes over it, doesn't just happen, it has to be earned, and it takes time and it takes, you know, people observing consistent behavior, and you're showing up and you're you know, not being erratic, you know, just being sort of that consistent um leader.
00:46:34.239 --> 00:46:46.639
And so what you just were talking about just made me think about your practice as a long-term, you know, mentor, relationship builder.
00:46:46.800 --> 00:46:59.840
I mean, you just have such a skill at that and how that does create those conditions for safety and trust, which allows people to step into taking accountability.
00:47:00.320 --> 00:47:02.639
Writing that one down, that's really good.
00:47:04.159 --> 00:47:06.480
I have two more questions for you.
00:47:06.800 --> 00:47:21.920
Okay, so how do we hold accountability but also grace together without weakening either?
00:47:22.320 --> 00:47:33.119
Like when I think about grace without accountability, it can become avoidance, and accountability without grace can be punishment or shame.
00:47:33.519 --> 00:47:42.000
So, how do we create cultures where people can be honest about mistakes while still being expected to grow in terms of this piece?
00:47:42.239 --> 00:47:49.440
It's probably people who get this right, you know, it's it's everything within word culture.
00:47:49.599 --> 00:47:52.960
So I I'm wondering if you you got any thoughts on that.
00:47:53.199 --> 00:47:56.639
Well, I can tell you it doesn't happen when emotions are high.
00:47:57.280 --> 00:47:58.880
So yeah, that's a good point.
00:47:59.199 --> 00:48:01.039
That's when it won't happen.
00:48:02.559 --> 00:48:17.039
So I wonder if you know, part of that is just taking the time to step away and really be thoughtful when when we feel those emotions rising, it is really hard.
00:48:17.599 --> 00:48:25.760
I think that, yeah, I think that's like the yeah, just stepping away and being able to say, okay, nope, I'm feeling a little hot under the collar here.
00:48:25.840 --> 00:48:27.679
I'm feeling the emotions rise.
00:48:27.840 --> 00:48:30.239
Um, I'm not gonna be my my best self.
00:48:30.400 --> 00:48:31.760
I need to step away.
00:48:32.079 --> 00:48:35.039
So I think that's the first thing.
00:48:35.280 --> 00:48:40.239
And then, you know, I think that I think it might not not always happen.
00:48:40.320 --> 00:48:47.440
And you know, maybe it's be giving ourselves the grace as well to say, I'm not always gonna get it right.
00:48:47.599 --> 00:48:59.519
I might take accountability, but I might be sort of a jerk about it, or I might still hold a little bit of mistrust and not have all the grace, and that just takes time and processing.
00:48:59.760 --> 00:49:02.719
But emotions I think play into a lot of this.
00:49:03.440 --> 00:49:11.519
There's not a whole lot of great stuff that can happen when people are angry or feeling a lot of fear or shame.
00:49:11.760 --> 00:49:28.000
So yeah, I um, you know, the example I gave in the in the meditation about this situation with my the young person that I reacted to, I think it required me to step away first.
00:49:29.440 --> 00:49:44.239
And yet this piece about the justice part, the justice of the injustice and the desire to get justice for this person who'd been harmed, and but also all that stuff.
00:49:44.400 --> 00:49:50.800
So it is, I loved your point about you can't provide the grace.
00:49:50.880 --> 00:49:56.880
And when I think of grace, I think of really putting myself in the shoes of that young person.
00:49:57.360 --> 00:50:05.599
Because at that age, at 13, 14 years old, whatever that behavior is, it's learned behavior, it's been modeled somewhere along the line.
00:50:05.760 --> 00:50:20.400
And the idea of stepping into this new community and not repeating it is an expectation that you hope is there, but wow, it's at the beginning of a very long journey in terms of at least our our model.
00:50:21.039 --> 00:50:23.199
So I I really appreciate that.
00:50:23.360 --> 00:50:31.360
I'm I guess I have now I have two questions left, but it your your comment made me think about this situation.
00:50:31.840 --> 00:50:40.000
Because I will admit this one is one of the most difficult for me, and I can share more about why.
00:50:40.559 --> 00:51:04.400
But when there has been space after something that I may have done have caused harm, and I have done the circle back, I've apologized, but also understand that I, you know, in time there will be, you know, I've got to create the systems and conditions for that trust to be earned back.
00:51:04.719 --> 00:51:09.119
But like you said, there are times when it may never happen.
00:51:09.519 --> 00:51:11.920
Like it just may never happen.
00:51:12.239 --> 00:51:16.880
And I'm wondering about have you ever experienced that?
00:51:17.119 --> 00:51:28.159
And if so, what did you do with it after whatever time that you realized, ah, this isn't, I'm never gonna get that back, and I just need to move on, or however.
00:51:28.239 --> 00:51:30.960
What like what happens to you in that situation?
00:51:31.199 --> 00:51:40.559
Yeah, Dawn, I mean, it it I'm feeling this uh because I I'm just I'm having this connection right now because it that's very painful.
00:51:40.719 --> 00:51:43.519
I mean, I have to admit, first of all, that that is really painful.
00:51:43.599 --> 00:51:49.039
I'm a pleaser, I am a yeah, I'm a pleaser.
00:51:49.440 --> 00:52:04.559
So when I know that I there's no going back, that that person is never gonna trust me again, I probably carry a bit of that with me in a healthy way, first of all, and and you know, maybe just carry a little bit of that shame that I did something that was so harmful.
00:52:04.960 --> 00:52:18.719
But maybe, maybe what I need to do is think, I, you know, I don't know what trauma this person has experienced in their lives that might create barriers for them ever trusting me again.
00:52:18.960 --> 00:52:21.519
And it may have nothing to do with me.
00:52:21.760 --> 00:52:47.440
I'm not saying that I am thinking that in the moment, but I can think of examples for sure of um particularly from early in my leadership career where I made some really big missteps with folks, and I genuinely was apologized and genuinely put the work in to rebuild, and it just never repaired.
00:52:47.760 --> 00:53:02.639
And I don't know what I don't know what trauma that person had prior to my the trauma I inflicted that would cause them to not be able to trust me again, but I certainly don't blame them for it.
00:53:03.599 --> 00:53:10.400
Yeah, that's really well said, and it's one of the hardest things for me, too.
00:53:10.719 --> 00:53:11.840
I mean, it is.
00:53:12.400 --> 00:53:36.320
I think for me, it's it's I mean, I can still think about I mean, working all three decades with kids, you know, this this situation that I bring up in the meditation turned out well, and I still have a relationship with that person today, but I can think of other situations where it didn't, and I tried everything I possibly could.
00:53:37.360 --> 00:53:48.320
And in the end, there's been radio silence, and and I think, and like you said, they don't owe that to me.
00:53:48.480 --> 00:54:03.199
Um, they don't they don't owe anything else, but just to have listened to uh me saying I'm sorry and and and hearing that my own accountability over time, I hope, will win that back.
00:54:04.000 --> 00:54:51.920
But it's the silence, it's the silence of not uh I have always struggled with the unresolved silence of a particular situation that and that's just honest and vulnerable, and it's I have a really incredibly hard time with people in my life, whether it's family, friends, um, professionals who might be passive aggressive, because I I just can't, I it it throws me for a loop, and I know that comes from my own um stuff that I've tried to work through, but even today, that is a really hard thing.
00:54:52.159 --> 00:54:54.800
Yeah, yeah, I can relate.
00:54:55.599 --> 00:54:56.960
That's all I can say.
00:54:57.199 --> 00:54:58.480
I can relate.
00:55:00.880 --> 00:55:20.239
Well, uh, I'm sorry we're gonna come to the end here, but I'm wondering about for someone listening who knows there is a conversation that they need to do the circle back to, where would you encourage them to begin?
00:55:21.440 --> 00:55:25.840
What's the first step they can take to own their own impact?
00:55:27.119 --> 00:55:48.400
I think that acknowledging that it for themselves that it is it is genuinely scary and feels really, really risky to be that vulnerable to go back and admit that you did something wrong.
00:55:48.639 --> 00:56:02.960
That is a very scary thing, and and just to to to just acknowledge that and say it's scary, it's really scary, it's okay, it's worth it, it's worth it, even if it's just to go back and acknowledge.
00:56:03.280 --> 00:56:08.559
And if nothing else happens, just to acknowledge and to walk away.
00:56:08.880 --> 00:56:33.280
I think my own experience tells me that nine times out of ten, or probably ninety, nine times out of a hundred, the person who's receiving that acknowledgement is going to respond to that vulnerability in a way that will make that scary action worthwhile and it will begin the healing process.
00:56:34.480 --> 00:56:36.159
Yeah, that's really well said.
00:56:36.800 --> 00:56:58.320
Well, I appreciate your vulnerability for picking this topic because uh it's not an easy one and it brings up uh it's multi-layered and um it exposes us to acknowledging things that um that we've had to work on from an interpersonal perspective.
00:56:58.480 --> 00:57:02.000
So I I I really appreciate you picking it.
00:57:02.320 --> 00:57:04.079
I really appreciate the conversation.
00:57:04.239 --> 00:57:12.480
It I've I've learned a lot in this conversation, and it's also making me do some reflection around the areas that I continue to need to grow.
00:57:12.800 --> 00:57:14.480
So thank you.
00:57:14.880 --> 00:57:15.840
Well, thank you.
00:57:16.079 --> 00:57:24.880
If you could stay on a few minutes as I wrap up, I'm gonna share about what I'm taking away from this conversation that I've learned from you.
00:57:25.440 --> 00:57:57.599
So I think that um there are a few things that Stephanie brought up around this idea of the circle back, um, this ability to first steps of taking accountability is that part of this has to be that we see this practice as being one of our values, that human relationships are worth it enough to do this type of hard work.
00:57:58.159 --> 00:58:11.440
And from that perspective, I think that's like the baseline that we're saying that human relationships are never always gonna be okay, meaning perfect.
00:58:12.480 --> 00:58:26.880
There's gonna be some bumps along the way, but if our value is that we want to keep the dignity and the humanity within those relationships, we're always gonna want to find a way to circle back.
00:58:27.840 --> 00:58:29.119
I really love that.
00:58:29.360 --> 00:58:45.440
I love the fact that she said that the opposite of shame and fear for people within our organizations or whatever that might be feeling that the opposite of that or the antidote to that is safety and trust.
00:58:45.920 --> 00:59:09.039
And when they're safety and trust, it allows people to on one hand, the this the culture is in a way where they can take accountability, or on the other side, be able to say, I'm I accept it, I accept the apology, I accept that this is going to change and those sorts of things.
00:59:09.280 --> 00:59:41.280
So I love that she named safety and trust, and then it's our ability as leaders or as stepfathers to create the conditions where safety and trust can be named, so that as opposed to I grew up in a household that was full of shame and fear, I grew up in a household that was filled with safety and trust, or I work in a relation in an organization that is just based on shame and fear, or I work in a real uh organization that's built on safety and trust.
00:59:41.519 --> 00:59:42.800
So I really appreciate that.
00:59:42.960 --> 00:59:54.239
I loved her uh answer to the idea of how do you hold accountability and grace together?
00:59:54.960 --> 00:59:56.480
What do you do?
00:59:56.719 --> 01:00:36.960
And she said, Well, I can tell you what you do you don't do, which is that you react to anything when high emotions are present, which brings us to the episode we had last week and uh or two weeks ago, and so that grace won't happen in this situation until we can step away and find grace for ourselves and then grace for the other person, or grace for ourselves, and then move into it with a um a steady presence, um, where emotions are our reactive brain isn't overtaking our thinking brain and heart.
01:00:37.360 --> 01:01:07.679
And then finally, I just appreciated the fact that she named the idea of vulnerability as a strategy to first uh in terms of what the first step is, is acknowledging how scary it is to for somebody that is doing something for the first time or know they have to circle back with somebody, how scary that is to acknowledge it and find the ability to be vulnerable enough to do it.
01:01:07.920 --> 01:01:21.360
That is super hard, but it's so life-giving to the other person and to ourselves when we're able to do it because it creates healing, and so I'm just really grateful for that.
01:01:21.519 --> 01:01:28.719
So uh thank you, Stephanie, for bringing up all these great gems of life wisdom.
01:01:29.199 --> 01:01:34.639
Don, thank you so much, and my gosh, your recap made me sound much more wise than I actually am.
01:01:34.800 --> 01:01:36.719
So thanks for that as well.
01:01:36.960 --> 01:01:41.760
But I am they're in they're in my notes, so they must be true.
01:01:42.000 --> 01:01:47.039
I have um genuinely enjoyed this conversation and have learned a lot as well.
01:01:47.199 --> 01:01:48.960
So, Don, thank you so much.
01:01:49.280 --> 01:01:50.559
You're welcome, you're welcome.
01:01:50.639 --> 01:01:56.239
Well, let me just give the audience a couple of reflection prompts and I'll close it out and I'll get to say goodbye to you.
01:01:56.719 --> 01:02:12.159
So, the two reflection prompts I want to uh provide you today is where do I need to circle back on the impact of my behavior and offer an apology of an apology without explaining it away?
01:02:12.400 --> 01:02:18.320
Where do I need to circle back on the impact of my behavior and offer an apology without explaining it away?
01:02:18.480 --> 01:02:29.760
And second, what specific change in my behavior, practice, or leadership would show that my apology has become real accountability?
01:02:30.320 --> 01:02:38.159
What specific change in my behavior, practice, or leadership would show that my apology has become real accountability?
01:02:38.639 --> 01:02:42.800
As we close, again, thank you, Stephanie, for joining me today.
01:02:43.039 --> 01:02:45.360
It was such a wonderful conversation.
01:02:45.599 --> 01:02:50.239
Many thanks to my good friend Omar in Morocco for producing this episode.
01:02:50.480 --> 01:02:56.079
If you found something meaningful here today, would you consider sharing this episode with someone else?
01:02:56.320 --> 01:02:59.920
It surely does help grow this community.
01:03:00.159 --> 01:03:10.239
And if you have a reflection or thought you'd like to share with me, as always, you can reach me anytime at Don at Carpenter Company Consulting.com.
01:03:10.480 --> 01:03:11.679
Thanks for listening.
01:03:11.840 --> 01:03:15.679
And please remember that the journey of leadership begins with this.
00:00:12.720 --> 00:00:15.599
Welcome to Meditations on Leadership.
00:00:15.759 --> 00:00:17.440
I'm Don Carpenter.
00:00:17.679 --> 00:00:27.760
Let me ask you, what if saying I'm sorry is not the completion of accountability, but only its beginning?
00:00:28.559 --> 00:00:40.320
And what if the real measure of an apology is not how sincerely we offer it, but whether the people around us experience something different from us afterwards?
00:00:41.280 --> 00:00:53.200
And what becomes possible in an organization when leaders are willing to circle back on their impact of their behavior and make changes necessary to become more trustworthy.
00:00:53.920 --> 00:01:05.439
These questions bring us into this week's meditation and into a reflection on the difference between expressing regret and taking responsibility.
00:01:06.319 --> 00:01:10.000
Exploring tensions like these is at the heart of this podcast.
00:01:10.400 --> 00:01:20.959
Each week begins with a meditation, followed by a personal reflection, and then a conversation with a guest whose lived experience helps bring the theme to life.
00:01:21.599 --> 00:01:26.799
All in the service of the inner formation leadership asks of us.
00:01:27.439 --> 00:01:34.480
And today I'm especially excited to have this conversation with Stephanie Welch.
00:01:35.439 --> 00:01:45.359
Stephanie is the executive director of Trekkers, an organization that has been a deeply meaningful part of my life for almost 30 years.
00:01:45.680 --> 00:02:00.159
Because I care so much about its mission, its people, and its future, it brings me real joy to see someone with Stephanie's experience, values, and commitment leading the organization today.
00:02:00.560 --> 00:02:08.479
She brings more than 25 years of experience helping young people, families, and communities grow stronger and more resilient.
00:02:08.960 --> 00:02:15.759
Her career began in public health with a focus on community engagement and health equity.
00:02:16.319 --> 00:02:27.360
She later led a nonprofit organization in Tennessee that partnered closely with public schools to support young people from birth through high school graduation.
00:02:28.000 --> 00:02:41.680
Stephanie is also a retired Army major and served her community and public office as both an elected city council member and deputy mayor of Knoxville, Tennessee.
00:02:41.840 --> 00:02:52.240
She holds a bachelor's degree in the University of New Hampshire, along with a master's degree in public health and nutrition from the University of Tennessee.
00:02:52.719 --> 00:03:06.400
What I appreciate most about Stephanie is the way she brings all that experience into her leadership at Trekkers with warmth, clarity, and a deep respect for relationships.
00:03:06.639 --> 00:03:17.680
She's helping the organization continue to grow while staying grounded in the long-term commitment to young people and families that has always been at the heart of the work.
00:03:18.319 --> 00:03:26.719
Stephanie and her partner Mark live in South Thomaston, Maine, with their two scruffy rescue dogs, Sprout and Truffle.
00:03:26.960 --> 00:03:31.680
I'm truly grateful to have her join me for this conversation.
00:03:32.080 --> 00:03:34.000
Stephanie, welcome to the show.
00:03:34.319 --> 00:03:35.280
Thanks so much, Don.
00:03:35.520 --> 00:03:36.800
It's such an honor to be here.
00:03:36.879 --> 00:03:37.919
I can't even tell you.
00:03:38.080 --> 00:03:38.479
Thank you.
00:03:38.719 --> 00:03:40.159
Thanks for that great introduction.
00:03:40.400 --> 00:03:41.520
Oh, you're welcome.
00:03:41.680 --> 00:03:54.080
Um, I look forward to the conversation too, but let's uh put a pin in it for a second as I share meditation 30 from my forthcoming book titled Accountability That Heals.
00:03:54.879 --> 00:04:01.120
And for you, the listening audience, you should know that Stephanie picked this theme for our conversation today.
00:04:01.840 --> 00:04:08.159
So I begin this meditation with a quote that is somewhat of a familiar saying.
00:04:08.400 --> 00:04:14.960
I've heard it a number of times, but most recently in the last year or two, by Adam Grant.
00:04:15.599 --> 00:04:21.040
And the quote is the best apology is changed behavior.
00:04:21.519 --> 00:04:25.279
The best apology is changed behavior.
00:04:26.560 --> 00:04:35.439
About four years into leading educational expeditions with teenagers, I lost my cold with a student.
00:04:35.839 --> 00:04:41.040
We were 10 days into a 14-day trip with eighth graders.
00:04:41.360 --> 00:04:47.600
It was over 90 degrees, everyone was tired, patience was thin.
00:04:48.240 --> 00:04:57.360
One of the boys had been disrespecting another student, someone with less social capital and standing within the group.
00:05:00.879 --> 00:05:03.199
Then I watched it happen again.
00:05:04.000 --> 00:05:05.519
And I snapped.
00:05:15.600 --> 00:05:19.120
But the way I handled it was wrong.
00:05:19.439 --> 00:05:23.199
In that moment, I could see something change in his face.
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I could see the trust in me begin to dissolve.
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After I cooled down, I circled back with him and I asked if he would be willing to talk.
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And thankfully, he was open to it.
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I apologized for raising my voice.
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I told him that my concern about what happened what had happened did not excuse the way I treated him.
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The heat did not excuse it, the exhaustion did not excuse it.
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My frustration did not excuse it.
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We had an important conversation that day, but the apology did not restore everything.
00:06:05.920 --> 00:06:09.519
It took another year before I felt like we were truly good again.
00:06:10.240 --> 00:06:16.319
That experience taught me something I've carried with me in my leadership ever since.
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An apology may begin the repair, but it cannot complete it.
00:06:23.519 --> 00:06:26.959
Trust does not return because we found the right words.
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Trust returns through consistency, through experience, through the other person seeing that something in us has actually changed.
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That incident also taught me something about myself.
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I realized that I react strongly when I see popular boys using their social power to diminish boys who are less popular.
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That instinct came from a good place.
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But even a good instinct can cause harm when it is not managed well.
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So on future expedition, I talked openly with my leadership teams about it.
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I asked them to help me notice when my frustration may be rising.
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We made plans for how we would intervene and who might step in and join me in talking with a student.
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My changed behavior was not simply promising myself that I would never raise my voice again.
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It was building accountability around the part of me most likely to lose perspective.
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That is what many apologies are missing.
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An apology says, I recognize that I hurt you.
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Accountability asks, what will I do differently so this does not happen again?
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Too often leaders never do the circle back.
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They are embarrassed, they want the moment to pass, they hope everyone else will move on too.
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But the person who was hurt may still be standing in the moment that the leader is trying to leave behind.
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Healing begins when we return, when we name what happened, when we own the impact, when we stop defending our intent, and when we make the changes necessary to become more trustworthy.
00:08:19.839 --> 00:08:24.000
The person we harm does not owe us an immediate forgiveness.
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They do not owe us reassurance, but we owe them changed behavior.
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In the end, our integrity will not be measured by how many mistakes, few mistakes we made.
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It will be measured by what we did after we made them.
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Whether we protected our pride or repaired what we could, whether we tried to forget or choose to circle back, and whether our apology became the end of the conversation or the beginning of real change.
00:09:01.919 --> 00:09:08.240
And that is where healing begins by holding ourselves accountable.
00:09:09.039 --> 00:09:12.960
So I just want to offer a quick personal reflection here.
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But knowing what accountability requires does not make it an easy practice.
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Sometimes the greatest barrier for me personally is shame.
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For much of my life, when I realized that something I had said or done had hurt someone, my first instinct was to defend myself.
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I wanted to explain what I meant before fully understanding the impact I had caused.
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Then, of course, once shame arrived, I wanted to be outside of my body.
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I wanted to withdraw.
00:10:05.360 --> 00:10:14.399
Through therapy over the years, I began to understand that forgiving myself was not the same as excusing myself.
00:10:15.039 --> 00:10:19.440
Excusing myself allowed me to avoid responsibility.
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Forgiving myself allowed me to remain present long enough to face it.
00:10:25.919 --> 00:10:30.399
I also began to see how often my need for control got in the way.
00:10:31.279 --> 00:10:42.720
When I was focused on controlling how others saw me, I became more concerned with proving that I was not a bad person than with listening to the person I had hurt.
00:10:43.519 --> 00:10:46.799
That is also where perfection entered the picture.
00:10:47.440 --> 00:10:57.919
When shame tells us that making a mistake means there is something wrong with who we are, perfectionism becomes a form of protection.
00:10:58.399 --> 00:11:09.039
It convinces us that if we can just get everything right, we will never have to feel exposed or face the possibility that we have caused harm.
00:11:10.320 --> 00:11:20.240
As Brene Brown says, if shame is driving the car, perfectionism is riding shotgun.
00:11:20.799 --> 00:11:26.480
But perfection was and never is going to be possible.
00:11:26.960 --> 00:11:33.840
And the more I needed to appear as though I had gotten everything right, the harder it became to admit when I had not.
00:11:34.480 --> 00:11:37.919
Accountability required me to step out of that pattern.
00:11:38.240 --> 00:11:42.559
I had to learn that causing harm did not mean I was beyond repair.
00:11:42.799 --> 00:11:47.919
It meant I had something to own, something to learn, and perhaps something to make right.
00:11:48.720 --> 00:11:55.279
Self-forgiveness gave me the courage to circle back and apologize without controlling the outcome.
00:11:56.159 --> 00:11:58.159
The person may not forgive us.
00:12:03.279 --> 00:12:05.039
That part belongs to them.
00:12:06.000 --> 00:12:11.360
Accountability, though, still belongs to us and to me.
00:12:12.000 --> 00:12:16.000
Self-forgiveness does not release us from that responsibility.
00:12:16.799 --> 00:12:22.559
However, it allows us to stay present long enough to face it.
00:12:23.279 --> 00:12:32.480
So, Stephanie, as you listen to the meditation and the reflection, curious as what resonated, what stirred in you, what stayed with you.
00:12:32.879 --> 00:12:34.159
Yeah, thanks so much, Don.
00:12:34.559 --> 00:12:36.399
First of all, that was beautiful.
00:12:36.799 --> 00:12:44.480
And as I was listening to your reflection, I um I felt like you were you were talking about me.
00:12:44.639 --> 00:12:47.360
I mean, I just feel like the commonality is there.
00:12:47.600 --> 00:13:00.080
Um as I was preparing for this morning, the thing that continued to come to mind as I thought about accountability that heals is, you know, sort of what gets in the way.
00:13:00.799 --> 00:13:04.799
And shame is the is the word that I wrote down.
00:13:05.039 --> 00:13:09.600
Shame is, you know, says that I am bad.
00:13:10.320 --> 00:13:23.919
I and it's it that's not the same as saying I did something bad or I did something hurtful, and I can own that for myself.
00:13:24.080 --> 00:13:31.279
I can forgive myself for that, which your reflections on self-forgiveness just really resonated with me.
00:13:31.440 --> 00:13:32.879
That's very hard.
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And then I can do something about it.
00:13:37.200 --> 00:13:39.919
I can I can go circle back.
00:13:40.159 --> 00:13:55.759
I I'm not gonna control how the other person responds to that, but I can circle back and I can continue to circle back and I can um do everything in my power to change my behavior to build that trust back.
00:13:55.919 --> 00:14:10.480
So I that it it just really resonated with me, this idea of of shame as a really significant barrier to um to accountability that is healing accountability.
00:14:10.799 --> 00:14:13.039
So yeah, it spoke to me.
00:14:13.440 --> 00:14:14.720
Yeah, thank you.
00:14:15.039 --> 00:14:36.879
It's interesting to me, you know, this work that you have done over 30 years of just basically being in service of people, and well, and I think about my career as well, it's all been in the the part of wanting to support, help, empower.
00:14:37.120 --> 00:14:53.919
Um, and I think the challenge for me has been how is it possible that I would get hurt hurt someone in that process when my whole ethos is to do just the opposite.
00:14:54.240 --> 00:15:05.039
And I'm curious when you think about this idea of accountability at uh uh that heals, where does your mind go first?
00:15:06.159 --> 00:15:15.039
I think you know, where my mind where my mind went first when I looked at the topic was organizational culture is really important to me.
00:15:15.279 --> 00:15:27.600
So it wasn't for me initially as much about the individual, although as I really started reflecting on it, I realized that that is really where it starts, is those interpersonal relationships.
00:15:27.759 --> 00:15:38.159
But I I'm just gonna admit that where my mind went first was more around organizational culture, um, which is something that just is really important to me.
00:15:38.320 --> 00:15:47.759
I think that culture is for me personally the most important uh aspect of being an effective organization and doing good work.
00:15:48.320 --> 00:16:20.159
So what I was thinking about is as a leader, where I've gone wrong, where I've seen um others go wrong, where I feel like I've made you know good decisions to set the example as a leader around culture that creates learning versus culture that causes people to hide their mistakes because of shame.
00:16:20.559 --> 00:16:22.080
You know, I've seen both of those things.
00:16:22.159 --> 00:16:26.320
So I think when I looked at the topic first on, that's that's where my mind went.
00:16:26.480 --> 00:16:31.039
And I think there's a whole conversation around that that we might explore.
00:16:31.200 --> 00:16:46.480
But then as I started thinking about it more, it it made me realize or it sort of reminded me of my own patterns of shame that that do get in the way, that still get in the way.
00:16:47.039 --> 00:17:17.359
Even though I'm I have some awareness that this is not a healthy behavior and doesn't set a good example and creates shame in others, that my own patterns of shame sometimes have prevented me and probably still prevent me on not so good days from taking, you know, sort of sort of forgiving myself and then taking accountability in a way that helps that healing process move along, if that makes sense.
00:17:17.680 --> 00:17:18.799
Yeah, it does make sense.
00:17:18.960 --> 00:17:20.319
And I really appreciate that.
00:17:20.400 --> 00:17:29.920
I because I do think the topic of uh from an organizational cultural perspective, it's definitely a major topic.
00:17:30.240 --> 00:17:37.440
But when I think about the premise of the podcast itself, is this idea that the journey of leadership begins within.
00:17:37.920 --> 00:17:41.680
I think about and I name this idea of circling back.
00:17:42.240 --> 00:18:05.599
And what I have found is that I have to circle back with myself first, because I have to deal with that barrier, that that thing that wants to keep me from you know circling back with the other, but I have to do it in a way that um I don't need something from that person in order to make myself feel better.
00:18:05.680 --> 00:18:10.000
And at that point, I have to kind of do this work on my own.
00:18:10.799 --> 00:18:38.720
So at the at the heart of what you brought up and and this theme is the idea of self-awareness, yeah, having enough self-awareness in our own lives, both as people but also professionals, to recognize in this case that we both named that shame is one of the areas that stop us from moving forward with that circle back, whether it's in the work culture or with its with friends, family, and others.
00:18:39.039 --> 00:18:44.000
Can you think of a time where what did you do to find that self-awareness?
00:18:44.160 --> 00:18:46.160
Was it somebody you trusted that pointed this out?
00:18:46.480 --> 00:18:51.119
Something you read that kind of said, ah, that's language for what I'm trying to figure out.
00:18:51.279 --> 00:18:56.799
Like, where did you, if you can name it, um, how did you become self-aware?
00:18:57.200 --> 00:18:59.039
Yeah, well, I'm not always.
00:18:59.200 --> 00:19:04.640
I mean, I was just gonna be self-aware enough to admit that I'm not always self-aware.
00:19:06.000 --> 00:19:18.640
Although I will say that I feel like just culturally, women are are sort of, you know, culturally raised to be very sensitive and self-aware.
00:19:18.720 --> 00:19:28.000
And I feel like particularly my own childhood, I was raised by the most wonderful parents who I adore.
00:19:28.559 --> 00:19:42.079
And we live in a culture where punishment, blame, and shame, particularly, you know, I don't I won't say particularly, but that was sort of part of the the upbringing that I was part of.
00:19:42.400 --> 00:19:46.720
So I feel like as an adult, therapy has helped.
00:19:46.880 --> 00:19:49.119
I have had some very good mentors.
00:19:49.680 --> 00:19:53.519
And just generally, Dawn, I I'm sure you feel this too.
00:19:53.759 --> 00:19:58.640
When when I have hurt someone, I feel pain.
00:19:59.759 --> 00:20:08.400
I mean, I I've I it's physical for me when I realize like, oh gosh, that was just I I harmed um someone.
00:20:08.720 --> 00:20:09.039
Yeah.
00:20:09.440 --> 00:20:14.000
And so there's that level of like, oh, I harmed someone.
00:20:14.160 --> 00:20:24.799
And then there's a when that self-awareness hits, I feel like I've learned along the way, like there are choices that you can make.
00:20:25.119 --> 00:20:30.240
So this when you when I've hurt someone, shame typically immediately follows.
00:20:30.480 --> 00:20:45.440
And so there's this sort of this self-punishment, and the pathways uh of options in front of you at that in front of me at that point are I'm just gonna bury it and move on and pretend it didn't happen.
00:20:45.680 --> 00:20:46.880
That's one option.
00:20:47.200 --> 00:20:55.519
And you know, I think we uh both know that that that's not accountability and it isn't doesn't lead to healing.
00:20:55.920 --> 00:21:06.880
And I think that I have found that just being willing to be vulnerable as a leader, I was really afraid to be vulnerable.
00:21:07.039 --> 00:21:14.079
I was a very young, I I was moved into leadership positions at a very young age.
00:21:15.039 --> 00:21:28.000
And so, particularly that gender dynamic and age dynamic made it very difficult for me to be vulnerable for a variety of reasons that we could talk about.
00:21:28.240 --> 00:21:42.079
But over time, I think there was I had a mentor in a position where I saw that vulnerability could completely shift the entire conversation in a more positive direction.
00:21:42.240 --> 00:21:51.119
And once I realized that, it is still really scary when I feel that I've hurt someone, when I see the choices in front of me.
00:21:51.440 --> 00:21:59.519
And then it's like diving over a cliff to be that vulnerable person to say, oh my gosh, I did wrong.
00:22:00.319 --> 00:22:06.000
And here's what I feel like I did that was wrong.
00:22:06.319 --> 00:22:07.920
And I want to acknowledge that.
00:22:08.000 --> 00:22:16.799
And I want to give, you know, I want to give an opportunity to, you know, hear your feedback.
00:22:16.960 --> 00:22:18.160
Did I get that?
00:22:18.400 --> 00:22:18.960
Am I right?
00:22:19.119 --> 00:22:19.920
Was that wrong?
00:22:20.160 --> 00:22:22.640
You know, allow that conversation to happen.
00:22:22.799 --> 00:22:26.319
And then I'm sorry, I'm going to do better and really try to practice that.
00:22:26.559 --> 00:22:31.200
So that was a long, long thing that I just said, but it's um it's a journey.
00:22:31.359 --> 00:22:32.880
Maybe I'll just stop there.
00:22:34.240 --> 00:23:03.119
Well, I really appreciate you taking uh me and us on that journey because I uh do think that this is a topic area that there's no silver bullet on this one uh to like quick fix, you know, if you're somebody that um is definitely somebody that feels the room and feels people and and that sort of thing.
00:23:03.200 --> 00:23:08.480
And I'm curious your um army major.
00:23:08.880 --> 00:23:09.440
Yeah.
00:23:09.759 --> 00:23:38.880
And I'm curious about army culture when it comes to this topic area of the idea of apology or saying I'm sorry, or holding one's accountable for actions that are at the heart level versus actionable steps within the protocol of whatever assignment that you know your your, I don't know if it's a platoon, but your um your unit is taking on.
00:23:39.839 --> 00:23:42.880
Can you speak to how you navigated all that?
00:23:43.039 --> 00:23:46.480
And was there some good models for that in the army?
00:23:46.640 --> 00:23:49.759
I don't want to make a general statement to say it's not there.
00:23:50.640 --> 00:23:51.759
Sure, sure.
00:23:52.160 --> 00:23:57.680
There were all sorts of models, good, bad, and you know, people are people.
00:23:57.839 --> 00:24:06.000
And and I guess maybe what I can say about that is that it all comes down to relationship, right?
00:24:06.319 --> 00:24:25.359
So whether it's in a nonprofit organization or in city government or in the military, relationships, if relationships are at the heart of everything that you do, it really translates across all of those environments.
00:24:25.759 --> 00:24:50.720
So I can definitely think of times when your your story of sort of snapping or you know, you know, your reaction to uh the youth situation that you were dealing with, it it resonated with me with the soldiers who I was responsible for, and that I had similar reactions um on more than one occasion.
00:24:50.799 --> 00:24:58.720
And some I probably didn't handle very well, and others I do remember circling back and saying, I didn't handle that very well.
00:24:59.359 --> 00:25:12.640
And I'm sorry, and I didn't set a good example, and just because we're in the military, that does not mean that we need to behave in aggressive, punitive ways towards each other.
00:25:12.799 --> 00:25:18.160
And I had leaders who exemplified that, and I had others who did not.
00:25:18.559 --> 00:25:32.319
So it it really is not, it may not be a frame a setting that really fosters that, but I certainly think that if relationships are at the heart of what you do, you can carry that with you regardless of the setting.
00:25:32.480 --> 00:25:33.119
Yeah.
00:25:33.759 --> 00:26:03.200
So if I'm I'm just gonna repeat back to you what I heard that the idea that uh if relationships are a value, uh one's value system is based on um, that I really believe in having strong relationships within whatever dimension of my life, whether it's professional or or personal, that having that perspective can carry throughout all those sectors.
00:26:03.519 --> 00:26:26.640
And that the idea that knowing that you value relationships so strongly, you're gonna make it a priority to make sure that if there are relationships that are unaligned based on results of perhaps of your own behavior, you're gonna find a way to circle back.
00:26:26.720 --> 00:26:31.359
And that is a value of yours professionally, but also personally.
00:26:31.599 --> 00:26:33.759
Yes, I think that is well stated.
00:26:33.839 --> 00:26:49.119
And I'm and I don't always do it well, but it is a value, and I practice, and the word practice means sometimes you get it right and sometimes you leave areas for improvement.
00:26:49.279 --> 00:26:49.920
Yes.
00:26:52.400 --> 00:26:57.839
Well, uh the thing about life is it just keeps giving us opportunities to build our muscle on this.
00:26:58.000 --> 00:27:12.079
So exactly exactly when you think um about a meaningful apology from a leader, what does it need to include?
00:27:13.279 --> 00:27:15.279
That is a very good question.
00:27:15.839 --> 00:27:26.640
I think that I well, I mean, I think the first the first thing is just that I got that wrong.
00:27:26.960 --> 00:27:29.599
I mean, I I got that wrong.
00:27:29.839 --> 00:27:31.440
That was not right.
00:27:32.720 --> 00:27:35.119
And for that, I am very sorry.
00:27:35.279 --> 00:27:40.720
I mean, I think it really does come with I apologize, I am sorry, I regret that.
00:27:41.359 --> 00:27:49.200
I think that it's also a hopefully a conversation that doesn't carry expectations with it.
00:27:49.359 --> 00:28:05.200
It gives space for the other person to you know share what that harm did to them, um, but it doesn't require that in order for the conversation to come to a conclusion.
00:28:05.359 --> 00:28:26.000
It may be just as much as I got that wrong, and from and from my perspective, I believe this is how I got it wrong, and I am truly sorry, and I am going to do something different, whatever that is, and again, provides that person the opportunity to debrief that as well.
00:28:26.160 --> 00:28:28.559
So that's from my own perspective.
00:28:28.720 --> 00:28:32.799
If it is something that I feel like I have I have done wrong.
00:28:33.039 --> 00:28:44.480
Now, I think there also as a leader is um we also are responsible for holding, for helping others develop their own sense of accountability.
00:28:45.279 --> 00:28:50.400
So there's also that perspective, which I could share, but that may be another question.
00:28:50.720 --> 00:28:53.759
Well, no, say say a little more about it while we're on that topic.
00:28:54.079 --> 00:29:10.720
Yeah, I mean, I think that um the first thing I think about when I think about creating a culture of accountability and a culture of learning is that example of being vulnerable, saying when you get it wrong, even if it's not in the moment, if it's circling back.
00:29:10.960 --> 00:29:13.519
So setting the example is part of that.
00:29:13.920 --> 00:29:26.000
But I also think that there are times as leaders that we have to make sure that folks know when they have gotten it wrong, if they're not recognizing that in themselves.
00:29:26.319 --> 00:29:40.960
And so um I feel like those conversations have to come in multiple parts in order to create the safety required for people to feel comfortable being vulnerable.
00:29:41.119 --> 00:29:42.160
So, what do I mean by that?
00:29:42.319 --> 00:29:47.759
In practice, what I mean is the first conversation is what happened.
00:29:48.240 --> 00:29:52.799
Let's just have a conversation about what just happened without bringing blame to it.
00:29:52.960 --> 00:30:00.400
It's not you did something wrong and we're gonna talk about it, but it's like, let's just have a conversation about what just happened.
00:30:00.799 --> 00:30:10.079
And as that, you know, the conversation may go in different directions, but that may build into, okay, well, how could that have happened differently?
00:30:10.559 --> 00:30:18.079
And oftentimes people will discover their their own place in that without the leader having to point it out.
00:30:18.400 --> 00:30:20.319
And then that ends.
00:30:21.119 --> 00:30:30.480
If there's disciplinary action or some type of action that is required organizationally to follow up, that's another conversation.
00:30:30.640 --> 00:30:32.079
They should not be paired.
00:30:32.240 --> 00:30:33.920
I feel really strongly about that.
00:30:34.240 --> 00:30:35.839
Two separate conversations.
00:30:36.160 --> 00:30:42.319
Debrief, then if discipline is required or some type of action, that's a separate conversation.
00:30:42.480 --> 00:30:50.079
Otherwise, the shame is too closely linked to the to whatever happened.
00:30:50.319 --> 00:30:51.839
That's my perspective, Don.
00:30:52.160 --> 00:31:12.160
So the idea that you're bringing up is that when you are as a leader within your organization, something happens where there isn't necessarily some self-awareness around it with one of the people who are working within the organization.
00:31:12.559 --> 00:31:25.599
And you, as a director or supervisor, or manager or whatever it might be, has to bring some sense of self-awareness, has to become a mirror for this.
00:31:25.680 --> 00:31:48.319
And and the first step is what you're naming is that the first step is is creating the conditions where that first conversation can happen, where somebody can kind of have an aha moment where they're like, ah, maybe I didn't see it, or maybe I I need time to think about that, but that's a good point.
00:31:48.480 --> 00:32:03.039
And what you're saying is that you wouldn't, as a second step in that moment, begin to talk about, okay, because this happened, this means, you know, a behavior management plan.
00:32:03.119 --> 00:32:05.440
This going in your file, this is whatever.
00:32:05.519 --> 00:32:13.920
It's let's sit on this, let it percolate, and let's circle back with each other in a couple of days or whatever it might be.
00:32:14.640 --> 00:32:14.960
Yes.
00:32:15.119 --> 00:32:18.480
And obviously, it depends on the severity of the situation, et cetera.
00:32:18.720 --> 00:32:35.599
But I feel like building the accountability muscle is a collaborative process, and it doesn't come from a leader um imposing shame and discipline on those that they're in a relationship with in their organization.
00:32:35.920 --> 00:32:38.960
So yes, you reflected that really well.
00:32:39.839 --> 00:32:54.559
Yeah, it's um, you know, another dynamic that that I really appreciate the fact that you are what I think you're naming in some ways is that there's a process that starts.
00:32:55.279 --> 00:33:28.640
And that if you get the process right and don't force it, let it unfold and trust that process, again, depending on the severity of what happened, but that that you're not trying to get the process all cleaned up at the end of one conversation and a neat bow, but you're trusting the process that over time this is gonna be a real teachable moment if I can just gently begin to bring a mirror to some of these things, but also some accountability as well.
00:33:28.880 --> 00:34:00.079
I think one of the challenges um that happens in many organizations that I've certainly witnessed myself has been where I am managing somebody who's managing a number of other people, and they are having some real hard times because some injury happened within the system, and they want to come to me and say, This injury happened, and I'm really upset.
00:34:00.720 --> 00:34:03.200
And what do you think we should do?
00:34:03.839 --> 00:34:35.599
Because we're we're at a director level, and um, you know, uh that's another teachable moment because it's not necessarily mine to hold again, depending on the severity of the situation, but that's another teachable moment to begin to sh to redirect to say, what can you do about it to to at least express that, or if your ability to circle back to say, you know, I'm really sorry.
00:34:35.840 --> 00:34:39.519
It's an interesting thing uh as people kind of move through this.
00:34:39.679 --> 00:35:01.360
And I always say that, you know, people don't leave great organizations, they leave really poor managers, and that usually is in that space of somewhere there's an injury, but that's not being dealt with, or there's not enough accountability to kind of deal with it.
00:35:01.760 --> 00:35:04.480
Anything come up there for you as you think about that?
00:35:04.880 --> 00:35:06.719
Yeah, actually, it really does.
00:35:07.199 --> 00:35:28.000
It really does, because um I'm just thinking, you know, again, and I know this is a whole other conversation, but what came to mind when I saw the topic was a particular experience I had with an organization where there had been a lot of trauma in the organization before I stepped into a leadership position.
00:35:28.559 --> 00:35:41.119
And so it wasn't necessarily trauma that I had been part of, you know, creating or inflicting, or you know, but that didn't matter.
00:35:42.239 --> 00:35:43.119
That didn't matter.
00:35:43.360 --> 00:36:00.639
So even I I completely agree with you that people don't leave really great organizations, they might leave really poor managers, but even even in that situation where it wasn't really the trauma that I had created, it still had to be addressed.
00:36:00.800 --> 00:36:05.039
I couldn't ignore it and just say, oh no, you got a new leader now.
00:36:05.199 --> 00:36:06.880
We could forget all of that.
00:36:07.360 --> 00:36:13.199
Um, it was really important to, I mean, I had to take accountability for that.
00:36:13.360 --> 00:36:29.920
As the organizational leader, I still had to take accountability and go through the process of healing with the organization, even though it was not my particular harm that I had inflicted.
00:36:30.400 --> 00:36:34.400
And I have subsequently, Don, been part of organizations.
00:36:34.639 --> 00:36:37.519
This is not Trekkers, I'm really not talking about Trekkers.
00:36:37.760 --> 00:36:52.400
This is another organization that I worked with subsequently, where there was trauma and the leader didn't acknowledge it, and it just continued, and then it became that leader's issue to deal with then at that point.
00:36:52.480 --> 00:37:09.440
It was so I've seen it happen a couple of different ways, and I don't know if that makes sense, but that was what occurred to me when I read the the you know, accountability that heals was I thought about that example and how important it was as a leader to take that on.
00:37:09.519 --> 00:37:12.719
And I think we could take that in a lot of different directions, but yeah.
00:37:13.199 --> 00:37:56.480
So in that case, you enter an organization that's been through that, and what you recognize immediately as you get in there, like there's some things that need to be healed, and the way to heal it is through a system-wide accountability to not necessarily fully the past, but accountability to build trust that this is never this injury is never gonna happen again, which gets to the the meditation itself, is that you know, one the the sorry part is the beginning of the process, the accountability to make sure that the conditions are different moving forward.
00:37:57.199 --> 00:37:58.400
I think that's perfect.
00:37:58.559 --> 00:38:05.199
Yeah, I hadn't even thought about it that way, but I think that that is a great marriage of that example with the meditation.
00:38:05.440 --> 00:38:06.400
Absolutely.
00:38:07.280 --> 00:38:14.480
Well, I I'm gonna turn the uh microphone over to you to see if there's a question on this topic you have for me.
00:38:15.760 --> 00:38:30.400
One of the things that I was reflecting on is this idea of punishment and how you know punishment plays into shame, and then that gets in the way of healing accountability.
00:38:30.719 --> 00:39:00.400
And I guess I was wondering if you have some sort of thoughts on how as a leader you can help not just in yourself identify that um that cycle, but how you can help the folks who you're responsible for mentoring identify that in themselves and sort of help them process through that to come to a better place.
00:39:01.360 --> 00:39:25.599
So if I'm hearing you correctly, how how would I go about helping somebody either on my team or a young person I'm mentoring begin to recognize or deal with this topic of shame when it comes to their own lives or the organizational culture?
00:39:25.840 --> 00:39:27.199
Yeah, okay.
00:39:28.239 --> 00:39:36.159
Yeah, well, so interesting because you did name this piece about punishment.
00:39:36.559 --> 00:40:18.480
So, you know, I think 90% of the time somebody is somewhat self-aware or they feel it in their soul or something, that they know that whatever they did was hurtful at some level of their lives, but because of the punishment factor, perhaps within their own um family origin or whatever it might be, that they just are like, I'm gonna try to get away with this because or I don't want to deal with it because I don't want to have to feel the brunt of that, and which leads to a lot of fear and guilt.
00:40:19.360 --> 00:40:57.119
And um one of the things that I have tried to do in each one of those cases when I'm dealing with somebody that is um shame prone, prone to shame, like I have been, as because I can recognize it pretty quickly now, mainly because I recognized it within myself, is that so much of this is whether or not this person feels like they trust me personally enough that whatever might come up, I'm not gonna turn my back.
00:40:58.719 --> 00:41:12.639
And now, again, there are certain limitations within organizations that you have to, you know, necessarily have to create some boundaries and maybe sometimes uh end the the employment.
00:41:12.880 --> 00:41:24.159
But I'm talking about like youth and thinking about young people who are prone to shame due to whatever situations they're coming in, systems, family systems that they're in.
00:41:24.400 --> 00:41:26.880
What do I do to help support that?
00:41:27.039 --> 00:41:45.679
Well, the beautiful thing about this model, as you know, is six years, and so you have a lot of time to build the conditions and the relationship in a way that can slowly let them know that they may have made a poor decision, but that doesn't make them a bad person.
00:41:46.239 --> 00:41:56.320
And that is something that they don't trust right away, they don't trust that at all because there's so foreign to their system.
00:41:56.480 --> 00:42:01.760
It's like you you have done a bad thing that makes you a really bad person.
00:42:02.320 --> 00:42:27.519
So just the consistency of showing up over and over and over again has really at the core of it been the thing that has really made that possible, where someone begins to say like they're not ashamed of themselves, even though we can work through a really hard thing.
00:42:27.760 --> 00:42:57.599
And I have to say that, you know, and working with kids for 30 plus years, I want to say it prepared me really well to have three stepchildren, but you know, that's a whole nother level of uh making sure that however I'm responding to something that it never gets to, you may have done something that did not serve the situation, but it doesn't mean that you are a bad person.
00:42:58.079 --> 00:43:07.679
And that's you know, you you got to be on your tiptoes for sure uh uh every day, um, because there's just so much happening.
00:43:07.920 --> 00:43:13.039
There's just so much emotion out there in the world and um and that sort of thing.
00:43:13.199 --> 00:43:21.360
I will say one other thing that I found really helpful as a practical matter, especially within the organizational culture.
00:43:21.519 --> 00:43:28.239
And it really, again, I'm sure the audience either loves it or is tired of it.
00:43:28.320 --> 00:43:33.599
I don't know, but I I really am a big fan of Brene Brown.
00:43:33.679 --> 00:43:39.039
And she just wrote this book, account uh Strong Ground, uh, around leadership.
00:43:39.360 --> 00:44:08.320
And she talks about this idea of a above and below the line practice that we, anybody within the organization, once it's shared, once it's understood, this practice, that we either respond to whatever's showing up in a Way where we're kind of our next action is either above or below the line.
00:44:08.559 --> 00:44:10.880
And the line itself is fear.
00:44:11.440 --> 00:44:21.760
And we can know that we're in a fear response when you know we see ourselves as the hero, or we see ourselves as the villain, or we see ourselves as a victim.
00:44:22.639 --> 00:44:28.320
And in that case, it's like that happened to me, blah, blah, blah.
00:44:28.480 --> 00:44:30.719
And a fear response comes out.
00:44:30.960 --> 00:44:42.000
And what she talks about is that one key point of teaching this model across organizations is that it gives language to something for people to understand.
00:44:42.079 --> 00:44:52.559
And I think that's one of the things that's lacking in organizational culture, but also in humanity, is that we don't all have the same language or a language to name some of these things.
00:44:52.800 --> 00:45:02.960
And so then she says anything above the line, we become uh our response is more in a challenger, coach, a guide, you know, a creator.
00:45:03.679 --> 00:45:14.719
And you're responding to something from that um that ground versus this fear-based response where people are really uh spiraling.
00:45:14.880 --> 00:45:17.679
And I think that that piece is really helpful.
00:45:17.840 --> 00:45:22.320
Um, I wish I would have known it a lot earlier, but it does name some things that I always felt.
00:45:22.400 --> 00:45:28.000
And I think we we name shame, the two of us, but fear is another one, right?
00:45:28.079 --> 00:45:33.119
That keeps us from going back and uh that sort of thing.
00:45:33.280 --> 00:45:36.960
So anyway, that went a couple different places, but that's what comes to mind.
00:45:37.199 --> 00:45:38.400
You have any follow-ups on that?
00:45:39.280 --> 00:45:40.559
I I think that's great, Don.
00:45:40.800 --> 00:45:48.960
I mean, I think what that made me think about is sort of the opposite of that fear and shame is you know, safety and trust.
00:45:49.199 --> 00:45:55.519
And so, how do you, as we you know, I'm always thinking about this myself.
00:45:55.920 --> 00:46:08.960
How do I create the conditions that for people to feel safe enough to fail, for people to feel safe enough to admit and to take that accountability?
00:46:09.199 --> 00:46:11.599
And you do that through building trust.
00:46:11.840 --> 00:46:33.840
And trust comes over it, doesn't just happen, it has to be earned, and it takes time and it takes, you know, people observing consistent behavior, and you're showing up and you're you know, not being erratic, you know, just being sort of that consistent um leader.
00:46:34.239 --> 00:46:46.639
And so what you just were talking about just made me think about your practice as a long-term, you know, mentor, relationship builder.
00:46:46.800 --> 00:46:59.840
I mean, you just have such a skill at that and how that does create those conditions for safety and trust, which allows people to step into taking accountability.
00:47:00.320 --> 00:47:02.639
Writing that one down, that's really good.
00:47:04.159 --> 00:47:06.480
I have two more questions for you.
00:47:06.800 --> 00:47:21.920
Okay, so how do we hold accountability but also grace together without weakening either?
00:47:22.320 --> 00:47:33.119
Like when I think about grace without accountability, it can become avoidance, and accountability without grace can be punishment or shame.
00:47:33.519 --> 00:47:42.000
So, how do we create cultures where people can be honest about mistakes while still being expected to grow in terms of this piece?
00:47:42.239 --> 00:47:49.440
It's probably people who get this right, you know, it's it's everything within word culture.
00:47:49.599 --> 00:47:52.960
So I I'm wondering if you you got any thoughts on that.
00:47:53.199 --> 00:47:56.639
Well, I can tell you it doesn't happen when emotions are high.
00:47:57.280 --> 00:47:58.880
So yeah, that's a good point.
00:47:59.199 --> 00:48:01.039
That's when it won't happen.
00:48:02.559 --> 00:48:17.039
So I wonder if you know, part of that is just taking the time to step away and really be thoughtful when when we feel those emotions rising, it is really hard.
00:48:17.599 --> 00:48:25.760
I think that, yeah, I think that's like the yeah, just stepping away and being able to say, okay, nope, I'm feeling a little hot under the collar here.
00:48:25.840 --> 00:48:27.679
I'm feeling the emotions rise.
00:48:27.840 --> 00:48:30.239
Um, I'm not gonna be my my best self.
00:48:30.400 --> 00:48:31.760
I need to step away.
00:48:32.079 --> 00:48:35.039
So I think that's the first thing.
00:48:35.280 --> 00:48:40.239
And then, you know, I think that I think it might not not always happen.
00:48:40.320 --> 00:48:47.440
And you know, maybe it's be giving ourselves the grace as well to say, I'm not always gonna get it right.
00:48:47.599 --> 00:48:59.519
I might take accountability, but I might be sort of a jerk about it, or I might still hold a little bit of mistrust and not have all the grace, and that just takes time and processing.
00:48:59.760 --> 00:49:02.719
But emotions I think play into a lot of this.
00:49:03.440 --> 00:49:11.519
There's not a whole lot of great stuff that can happen when people are angry or feeling a lot of fear or shame.
00:49:11.760 --> 00:49:28.000
So yeah, I um, you know, the example I gave in the in the meditation about this situation with my the young person that I reacted to, I think it required me to step away first.
00:49:29.440 --> 00:49:44.239
And yet this piece about the justice part, the justice of the injustice and the desire to get justice for this person who'd been harmed, and but also all that stuff.
00:49:44.400 --> 00:49:50.800
So it is, I loved your point about you can't provide the grace.
00:49:50.880 --> 00:49:56.880
And when I think of grace, I think of really putting myself in the shoes of that young person.
00:49:57.360 --> 00:50:05.599
Because at that age, at 13, 14 years old, whatever that behavior is, it's learned behavior, it's been modeled somewhere along the line.
00:50:05.760 --> 00:50:20.400
And the idea of stepping into this new community and not repeating it is an expectation that you hope is there, but wow, it's at the beginning of a very long journey in terms of at least our our model.
00:50:21.039 --> 00:50:23.199
So I I really appreciate that.
00:50:23.360 --> 00:50:31.360
I'm I guess I have now I have two questions left, but it your your comment made me think about this situation.
00:50:31.840 --> 00:50:40.000
Because I will admit this one is one of the most difficult for me, and I can share more about why.
00:50:40.559 --> 00:51:04.400
But when there has been space after something that I may have done have caused harm, and I have done the circle back, I've apologized, but also understand that I, you know, in time there will be, you know, I've got to create the systems and conditions for that trust to be earned back.
00:51:04.719 --> 00:51:09.119
But like you said, there are times when it may never happen.
00:51:09.519 --> 00:51:11.920
Like it just may never happen.
00:51:12.239 --> 00:51:16.880
And I'm wondering about have you ever experienced that?
00:51:17.119 --> 00:51:28.159
And if so, what did you do with it after whatever time that you realized, ah, this isn't, I'm never gonna get that back, and I just need to move on, or however.
00:51:28.239 --> 00:51:30.960
What like what happens to you in that situation?
00:51:31.199 --> 00:51:40.559
Yeah, Dawn, I mean, it it I'm feeling this uh because I I'm just I'm having this connection right now because it that's very painful.
00:51:40.719 --> 00:51:43.519
I mean, I have to admit, first of all, that that is really painful.
00:51:43.599 --> 00:51:49.039
I'm a pleaser, I am a yeah, I'm a pleaser.
00:51:49.440 --> 00:52:04.559
So when I know that I there's no going back, that that person is never gonna trust me again, I probably carry a bit of that with me in a healthy way, first of all, and and you know, maybe just carry a little bit of that shame that I did something that was so harmful.
00:52:04.960 --> 00:52:18.719
But maybe, maybe what I need to do is think, I, you know, I don't know what trauma this person has experienced in their lives that might create barriers for them ever trusting me again.
00:52:18.960 --> 00:52:21.519
And it may have nothing to do with me.
00:52:21.760 --> 00:52:47.440
I'm not saying that I am thinking that in the moment, but I can think of examples for sure of um particularly from early in my leadership career where I made some really big missteps with folks, and I genuinely was apologized and genuinely put the work in to rebuild, and it just never repaired.
00:52:47.760 --> 00:53:02.639
And I don't know what I don't know what trauma that person had prior to my the trauma I inflicted that would cause them to not be able to trust me again, but I certainly don't blame them for it.
00:53:03.599 --> 00:53:10.400
Yeah, that's really well said, and it's one of the hardest things for me, too.
00:53:10.719 --> 00:53:11.840
I mean, it is.
00:53:12.400 --> 00:53:36.320
I think for me, it's it's I mean, I can still think about I mean, working all three decades with kids, you know, this this situation that I bring up in the meditation turned out well, and I still have a relationship with that person today, but I can think of other situations where it didn't, and I tried everything I possibly could.
00:53:37.360 --> 00:53:48.320
And in the end, there's been radio silence, and and I think, and like you said, they don't owe that to me.
00:53:48.480 --> 00:54:03.199
Um, they don't they don't owe anything else, but just to have listened to uh me saying I'm sorry and and and hearing that my own accountability over time, I hope, will win that back.
00:54:04.000 --> 00:54:51.920
But it's the silence, it's the silence of not uh I have always struggled with the unresolved silence of a particular situation that and that's just honest and vulnerable, and it's I have a really incredibly hard time with people in my life, whether it's family, friends, um, professionals who might be passive aggressive, because I I just can't, I it it throws me for a loop, and I know that comes from my own um stuff that I've tried to work through, but even today, that is a really hard thing.
00:54:52.159 --> 00:54:54.800
Yeah, yeah, I can relate.
00:54:55.599 --> 00:54:56.960
That's all I can say.
00:54:57.199 --> 00:54:58.480
I can relate.
00:55:00.880 --> 00:55:20.239
Well, uh, I'm sorry we're gonna come to the end here, but I'm wondering about for someone listening who knows there is a conversation that they need to do the circle back to, where would you encourage them to begin?
00:55:21.440 --> 00:55:25.840
What's the first step they can take to own their own impact?
00:55:27.119 --> 00:55:48.400
I think that acknowledging that it for themselves that it is it is genuinely scary and feels really, really risky to be that vulnerable to go back and admit that you did something wrong.
00:55:48.639 --> 00:56:02.960
That is a very scary thing, and and just to to to just acknowledge that and say it's scary, it's really scary, it's okay, it's worth it, it's worth it, even if it's just to go back and acknowledge.
00:56:03.280 --> 00:56:08.559
And if nothing else happens, just to acknowledge and to walk away.
00:56:08.880 --> 00:56:33.280
I think my own experience tells me that nine times out of ten, or probably ninety, nine times out of a hundred, the person who's receiving that acknowledgement is going to respond to that vulnerability in a way that will make that scary action worthwhile and it will begin the healing process.
00:56:34.480 --> 00:56:36.159
Yeah, that's really well said.
00:56:36.800 --> 00:56:58.320
Well, I appreciate your vulnerability for picking this topic because uh it's not an easy one and it brings up uh it's multi-layered and um it exposes us to acknowledging things that um that we've had to work on from an interpersonal perspective.
00:56:58.480 --> 00:57:02.000
So I I I really appreciate you picking it.
00:57:02.320 --> 00:57:04.079
I really appreciate the conversation.
00:57:04.239 --> 00:57:12.480
It I've I've learned a lot in this conversation, and it's also making me do some reflection around the areas that I continue to need to grow.
00:57:12.800 --> 00:57:14.480
So thank you.
00:57:14.880 --> 00:57:15.840
Well, thank you.
00:57:16.079 --> 00:57:24.880
If you could stay on a few minutes as I wrap up, I'm gonna share about what I'm taking away from this conversation that I've learned from you.
00:57:25.440 --> 00:57:57.599
So I think that um there are a few things that Stephanie brought up around this idea of the circle back, um, this ability to first steps of taking accountability is that part of this has to be that we see this practice as being one of our values, that human relationships are worth it enough to do this type of hard work.
00:57:58.159 --> 00:58:11.440
And from that perspective, I think that's like the baseline that we're saying that human relationships are never always gonna be okay, meaning perfect.
00:58:12.480 --> 00:58:26.880
There's gonna be some bumps along the way, but if our value is that we want to keep the dignity and the humanity within those relationships, we're always gonna want to find a way to circle back.
00:58:27.840 --> 00:58:29.119
I really love that.
00:58:29.360 --> 00:58:45.440
I love the fact that she said that the opposite of shame and fear for people within our organizations or whatever that might be feeling that the opposite of that or the antidote to that is safety and trust.
00:58:45.920 --> 00:59:09.039
And when they're safety and trust, it allows people to on one hand, the this the culture is in a way where they can take accountability, or on the other side, be able to say, I'm I accept it, I accept the apology, I accept that this is going to change and those sorts of things.
00:59:09.280 --> 00:59:41.280
So I love that she named safety and trust, and then it's our ability as leaders or as stepfathers to create the conditions where safety and trust can be named, so that as opposed to I grew up in a household that was full of shame and fear, I grew up in a household that was filled with safety and trust, or I work in a relation in an organization that is just based on shame and fear, or I work in a real uh organization that's built on safety and trust.
00:59:41.519 --> 00:59:42.800
So I really appreciate that.
00:59:42.960 --> 00:59:54.239
I loved her uh answer to the idea of how do you hold accountability and grace together?
00:59:54.960 --> 00:59:56.480
What do you do?
00:59:56.719 --> 01:00:36.960
And she said, Well, I can tell you what you do you don't do, which is that you react to anything when high emotions are present, which brings us to the episode we had last week and uh or two weeks ago, and so that grace won't happen in this situation until we can step away and find grace for ourselves and then grace for the other person, or grace for ourselves, and then move into it with a um a steady presence, um, where emotions are our reactive brain isn't overtaking our thinking brain and heart.
01:00:37.360 --> 01:01:07.679
And then finally, I just appreciated the fact that she named the idea of vulnerability as a strategy to first uh in terms of what the first step is, is acknowledging how scary it is to for somebody that is doing something for the first time or know they have to circle back with somebody, how scary that is to acknowledge it and find the ability to be vulnerable enough to do it.
01:01:07.920 --> 01:01:21.360
That is super hard, but it's so life-giving to the other person and to ourselves when we're able to do it because it creates healing, and so I'm just really grateful for that.
01:01:21.519 --> 01:01:28.719
So uh thank you, Stephanie, for bringing up all these great gems of life wisdom.
01:01:29.199 --> 01:01:34.639
Don, thank you so much, and my gosh, your recap made me sound much more wise than I actually am.
01:01:34.800 --> 01:01:36.719
So thanks for that as well.
01:01:36.960 --> 01:01:41.760
But I am they're in they're in my notes, so they must be true.
01:01:42.000 --> 01:01:47.039
I have um genuinely enjoyed this conversation and have learned a lot as well.
01:01:47.199 --> 01:01:48.960
So, Don, thank you so much.
01:01:49.280 --> 01:01:50.559
You're welcome, you're welcome.
01:01:50.639 --> 01:01:56.239
Well, let me just give the audience a couple of reflection prompts and I'll close it out and I'll get to say goodbye to you.
01:01:56.719 --> 01:02:12.159
So, the two reflection prompts I want to uh provide you today is where do I need to circle back on the impact of my behavior and offer an apology of an apology without explaining it away?
01:02:12.400 --> 01:02:18.320
Where do I need to circle back on the impact of my behavior and offer an apology without explaining it away?
01:02:18.480 --> 01:02:29.760
And second, what specific change in my behavior, practice, or leadership would show that my apology has become real accountability?
01:02:30.320 --> 01:02:38.159
What specific change in my behavior, practice, or leadership would show that my apology has become real accountability?
01:02:38.639 --> 01:02:42.800
As we close, again, thank you, Stephanie, for joining me today.
01:02:43.039 --> 01:02:45.360
It was such a wonderful conversation.
01:02:45.599 --> 01:02:50.239
Many thanks to my good friend Omar in Morocco for producing this episode.
01:02:50.480 --> 01:02:56.079
If you found something meaningful here today, would you consider sharing this episode with someone else?
01:02:56.320 --> 01:02:59.920
It surely does help grow this community.
01:03:00.159 --> 01:03:10.239
And if you have a reflection or thought you'd like to share with me, as always, you can reach me anytime at Don at Carpenter Company Consulting.com.
01:03:10.480 --> 01:03:11.679
Thanks for listening.
01:03:11.840 --> 01:03:15.679
And please remember that the journey of leadership begins with this.
