speaker-0: Hi guys, Jeremy, DigitalGriath Marketing, your online ads guy. Welcome back to another episode of Marketing Ops for ⁓ SMEs. Today we're gonna talk about ops. My favorite one of my favorite ops topics is EOS, right? I got all the EOS books, I read ⁓ I think about ⁓ all the time. I've been doing it for five years. ⁓ at some point in time started Expanding the EOS rules, started making my own EOS, and now it just morphed into something else. So today I've got a proper EOS implementer to come and check in with me and just to figure out, you know, how it really works. ⁓ I got a lot of my questions answered, a lot of things I think it doesn't apply to small business, doesn't apply to online business, and you know we've got we've got it answered as as as much as we could. So if you into EOS. ⁓ if you thought about implementing US for a business, big or small, doesn't matter what stage of business you are, you're gonna get something out of this episode about US. Right? That's enough talking about US. Alright, see you later. Bye. All right guys, morning. Welcome back to another episode of Marketing Ops for SMEs. Today I'm joined by Murray Smith. Welcome, man. How are you?
speaker-1: Yeah, good to be here, Jeremy. Thanks for having me on.
speaker-0: No, for sure, man. It's good to have another Aussie on as well. Yeah, yeah. So ⁓ yeah, no, I mean like it's always interesting and ⁓ today you're ⁓ EOS implementer, right? EOS implementer. ⁓ love it 'cause I'm I'm a fan. I have all the books I want to quickly show you. Well done. I got I got all four. ⁓ yeah, EOS ⁓ entrepreneur operating system is something I grabbed when I first started business about seven years ago. And then I was always always fascinated by EOS implementers. And today I ha I have one on here on the show with me. So ⁓ yeah, man, thanks so much for for jumping on. And can you give s ⁓ the people who don't know what EOS or the traction system is a quick rundown, like the quick version of it?
speaker-1: Yeah. So EOS is the entrepreneurial operating system. It was ⁓ born in the United States some twenty five years ago. But what it's really about is getting what you want from your business and doing that you focus on six key components of your business rather than firefighting every day. So making sure and and none of this is particularly, you know, earth shattering stuff. It's just about the execution of it. So you've got to make sure you've got a great vision ⁓ that that everyone shares and everyone understands and they're aligned to it. You got the right people in the right seats. You're measuring your business off the numbers, not gut feel. You're solving issues so they don't hang around forever, ⁓ because plenty of businesses love talking but don't actually like doing. And then ⁓ making sure you've got the right processes in place to get a consistent result across your business. And the final bit is traction. It's about execution and and that's where the the secret source is. Everyone's got ideas, but not many people can execute. And that's the value of EOS. It really ⁓ puts a framework around execution and around your ideas and makes that happen. Yeah.
speaker-0: Yeah, nice. ⁓ how popular now is it in Australia w with you know, your Os
speaker-1: Yeah, well it's a good question, Jeremy. When I started ⁓ my first ⁓ EOS implementation was in June twenty nineteen and ⁓ at that at that stage, you know, there was about maybe ⁓ maybe fifteen implementers in Australia at that point. There's now about forty five. ⁓ wow. ⁓ so there's you know, but I would still say in terms of what's available to business businesses in Australia, we're still just scratching the surface. We've worked Probably with over a thousand businesses, you know, all the implementers, not me personally. Yeah. but of course there's about two point one million businesses in Australia yeah that would fit this target market. So like I say, we're just scratching the surface. Yeah. ⁓ but we're making a difference and that's what matters.
speaker-0: Yeah, nice. And you're you're you doing the circuits around the the podcast circuit and all that. That's all but to bring awareness to the this kind of thing. Yeah. Yeah.
speaker-1: Yeah, that's right. So so y ⁓ you know, this is this is part of it. Like you know, it's all very well to hand out books of which you've got a few there, but yeah, ⁓ that that can get you so far. It's really about understanding there is another way to run your business. And the best way to do that is to talk to people like y yourself. Yeah. You know, particularly with with your background, you can understand specifically why why ⁓ why why we're here talking about this because you know, marketing is crucial to any operation.
speaker-0: But yeah, big time. I mean I I'm a fan as well. I'm coming from a fan, but I have questions because as you know, I was talking in the pre pre-chat. I think I do my own version of EOS. It's probably not not the right version. ⁓ but that's something that I want to get into. But just going back a little bit as well, like I think it's important for listeners to understand the the credibility, your street cred. Like how you came about, right? You just didn't walk into this one day, right?
speaker-1: No. Well, so if you're talking about me personally, you know, I come from a family of engineers. I didn't get into the family business, didn't like getting my hands greasy, so didn't do it. ⁓ stayed at school, finished school, got accepted into chemical engineering, did that for a few months, worked out I'd be on oil rigs and getting greasy hands, so it wasn't gonna be me. ⁓ dropped out of university. Mum wasn't too happy about that, but She said as long as you get a job. So I held down a couple of menial jobs for a couple of months. Then I ended up in Victoria Police for fifteen years and worked ⁓ in various locations doing various things. Stories for another day. but along the way I was seriously injured at work and then I returned to study. So I completed an undergraduate degree and then I completed a masters in human resource management and industrial relations. And at the fifteen year mark, Victoria Police, I kinda just outgrew the organisation, wanted to use my new skills. And then I just started restructuring and setting up organisations and on that journey ⁓ had an itch to scratch about studying overseas. So I went and did an executive programme at Harvard University to work out whether I could hack studying overseas, came back, knew that I could. So then I applied to go back to Harvard and to MIT and, you know, had the first world problem of I got accepted into both and had to decide whether I go to Harvard or MIT. I chose to go to MIT, got my MBA there, and then when I ret ⁓ st lived in America while I completed that and then returned to Australia, held down interim executive job for a while, just restructuring again. And then a friend of mine had handed me a copy of the book Traction that you've got there. And I read it and he said, I think you'd make a good implementer and then I made the jump to do that and did boot camp and then started implementing with clients in June twenty nineteen. So that's a really quick version of of me. Yeah ⁓ in terms of EOS. You know, if you think about it, ⁓ it's been around for about twenty, twenty five years. Started in Detroit, ⁓ with the author of that book, Traction, Geno Wickman. From there it's iterated into what you see today. But there's ⁓ about nine hundred and fifty implementers around the world. ⁓ there's about three hundred and ⁓ sorry, there's thirty three thousand businesses that have either worked with an implementer or are working with an implementer currently with over a hundred and fifty thousand session days and There's another hundred thousand businesses using of which you are one. Yeah. Using parts or all of the EOS tools.
speaker-0: Massive. I think it's gonna get it's I think it's already quite popular. I think, you know, ⁓ in terms of like, is there anything else like it in in the marketplace?
speaker-1: Well, ⁓ I'm sure there is. ⁓ having said that, ⁓ th this probably goes to your marketing background, Jeremy. Is whilst ⁓ competition is healthy and good, yeah, my view is ⁓ I'm sure there's some great systems out there, but I focus on doing the best I can with EOS and delivering the the ⁓ service excellence with that. So if people want to use any system, great. Whatever makes your business better. Yeah but I focus on making sure that what I supply is the best that I can possibly do. Yeah. ⁓ rather than worry about what other people might be supplying.
speaker-0: I just didn't know if there was 'cause I I've never ⁓ I've never seen something similar. Yeah. Right. And I read a lot of systems that I haven't seen something similar that can be applied for smaller to bigger businesses. Yeah.
speaker-1: Yeah. Well, I I think what what you're probably touching on there, Jeremy, is really about ⁓ the simplicity. Yes. Yes. Simplicity doesn't mean easy. It just means that you can grasp the concepts quickly, but also the the tools are there to execute quickly as well. And it you don't need, ⁓ you know, some sort of background in rocket science to apply it. That's right. ⁓ it's it just allows you to look at simple numbers and and do simple things to change your business and it and it makes logical sense from that perspective, you know, like Yeah. You're not diving deeply into finance, although you will have a someone in a finance seat, but yeah at at at the highest level we wanna know the basics, like have we got enough revenue and do we have enough profit? And yeah, are there numbers that support that? Yeah.
speaker-0: ⁓ for sure. Let's get into specifics then. ⁓ the components, right? The first one is vision. ⁓ what what ⁓ so two questions. First, do we always start with the vision piece? Or like depends on like where you step into the company, like is it something else first? How how's that usually work for you?
speaker-1: So it's a good question. We don't start with vision. We we say ⁓ traction first, vision second. So in other words, we'll teach you the tools to execute on the first day that we work with you. Because to be to be frank, I d I don't care what your vision is. If you can't execute, then it really doesn't matter what your vision is. So you've got to learn the tools to be able to execute in your business. So that's things like looking at numbers and understanding what they look like. ⁓ what does accountability look like in your business? How do we set up the t the leadership team for success? Yeah. What do ⁓ priorities look like and how do we set them? So it's a spaced learning exercise, but essentially, you know, execution is the key to everything. Too much time is spent people, you know, navel gazing about whatever they want to be, and not enough time on getting it done. And this is about getting it done. So we will give you the tools to get it done and then we will set your vision up. Now the space between those is only thirty days, so you're looking about a you know, sixty day cycle and you'll be ready to go into the ninety day world. But the first thing we do is make sure you can execute. And then we worry.
speaker-0: So so y when you first come into a business, you don't actually sit down and talk about vision. You go here, here's the stuff, get the game, get the ball rolling, get some momentum happening. All right. And then we've got a talking thirty days. Yep. And then go from there. It's it's also ⁓ like a good filter, right? It's also a good filter to see who's not that who who's not really gonna do anything, yeah.
speaker-1: I'm sorry, it's also Yeah. So what'll happen is the the leadership team well, in all the businesses I've implemented with and there's over sixty five now. Yeah. ⁓ I've never started and finished with the same leadership.
speaker-0: Heard that from other than another episode. Yeah, very interesting. Yeah.
speaker-1: So so that's not about getting rid of people. Sometimes that's about, you know, the business is going well and they have to expand. But I've never started and finished. But the point being, and to your point about when you start talking about accountability on the first day and really say this is about execution, this is what we need to do. You're accountable for doing this. Sometimes you get the old whoa, what do you ⁓ what do you mean I'm accountable? yeah. w aren't we all accountable? Yeah, yeah. ⁓ you know, there's ⁓ there's sometimes that happens and You know, sometimes it's just not a good fit for for some people and that's okay, it doesn't make them bad people, just means they're not suited to to the business that I'm working with. Yeah.
speaker-0: just probably not yet or whatever. Or they're not buying to the system yet. So a lot of time you come in like I mean I I had this question for later, but now that we're talking about it so a lot of time you come in like maybe only one person out of the six that you're working with heard about EOS or read the book, very psyched. And you gotta get the buying of the other five, right? On the if they're doing that on day one.
speaker-1: Yeah, so how that works. Yeah. So what I'll do before I start the process, which is the focus day, there's a step before that called the ninety minute meeting. Yeah. And what I'll do is I'll do that with the entire leadership team. Yeah. And the reason I do it with the entire leadership team is so that they're all reading off the same page when they walk into the focus day and they know what they're about to get into. Yeah. But the ninety minute meeting, and again this goes to, you know, the the point about marketing is we've got to work out whether there's a fit there, both for them In terms of is EOS right for that business? Mm-hmm. Equally, am I right for that business? Mm-hmm. But just as importantly, are they right for me? So this is all about a fit conversation. So before they walk into that first day, they know what's going to happen. They know my style. They know what what the process will be, what the steps are, because we take ⁓ through all that. And then it's just about let's get on with it. Now, ⁓ yeah, most people in the ninety minute meetings go, Wow, this is really exciting. Let's get but But they all walk in with the same level of knowledge in terms of that a base baseline level of knowledge. Now some would have read traction before that day and that's okay. Yeah. ⁓ there's no problem with that. And some won't. And there's no problem with that either.
speaker-0: Got you. So they don't have to buy in already to the system before implementing Yeah, got you. Okay, nice. ⁓ now now my question around vision, because that's the first piece, you know, in the book, that's the first piece, right? Yep. And always wanted to know, ⁓ like how how transparent do you be? Because my goals are like, I want profit, I want to work like 15 hours, you know what I mean? But and I've just redone it after speaking to you. But back then it was like top line revenue. Okay, some of that stuff we can reveal. Right? Yes. Where you where you're getting stuff from or whatever. Some sometimes you know, it's personal kind of vision, you know, for me as a owner. Like yeah, what's your what's your balance in the in the thing? Like how do you
speaker-1: Yeah, so I get the concept. Sometimes there's sensitivities around what people want to disclose and so forth. Yeah. Yeah. But what you've got it w firstly, what I tell people about the businesses they run is they are for profit exercises and you should embrace that. You're not running a charity and you're not running a not for profit in some other description. You're running a for profit exercise and you should be ⁓ commended for that. And you shouldn't sh shirk away from that. The second part is about what What do you need to share about personal goals? Well, it's not really about personal goals. This is about the business and we'll do what's right for the business. So if you want to sell the business in three years, do you have to declare that? Well, in my view, no, because that's not the goal. The goal is really to have a great business that's really attractive for others to buy, right? Exactly. So yeah but let's build a business that is, you know, got great recurring revenue if that's your goal. That's good profit, that it's got the right people in the right seats, that it's well documented and it doesn't rely on personality, it right relies on a structure and a discipline and a rhythm. And then you can have whatever you want, whether it's your work fifteen hours a week or whether you sell it or whatever it is, it doesn't matter. Ultimately, if you want to do any of that, you've got to have a great business. So let's strip it back and say, Let's have a great business. Yeah, and then and then and then we can work out what's next.
speaker-0: So me just say in as as a goal, right? And I said the owner is gonna work fifteen hours, he's gonna make three hundred thousand and all that, is that still okay to put that as the as the vision kind of thing?
speaker-1: No, because it's not that's not the goal of the business. That's the that's the individual goal. The individual the the goal of the business is to develop to to a point that you can do that. And in fact you should be trying to do that. Yeah. So you're gonna got time to do other things. You don't start all this do all this work just to keep working really, really hard. Yeah. ⁓ If that's not understood by the individual, then that that's a problem. But ultimately what we want is a great business.
speaker-0: So how do you translate that into a so you're talking about top line revenue? Yeah and you know, like yeah, you know, we're gonna get the seats filled. Yep. With that kind of thing, right?
speaker-1: Yeah, that's right. And you're gonna say we're gonna hit these numbers, revenue targets. Here's how we're gonna do it. We've got to do X, Y, and Z. Yep. We've got to put these things in place. Okay, let's put those things in place. ⁓ all those things are important to drive you to what you wanna be ⁓ as a business. The outcome of having a great business is then Freedom. You know what what will be will be. And and so that's the problem. Too many people are focusing on the prize. Yeah. But they're not prepared to pay the price. Right? The prize is to have that fifteen hours a week, you know, ⁓ having a profitable business where you may not have to be in there every day, great. Yeah. But you've got to pay the price. You've got to set it up so that can happen. It just doesn't happen magically. ⁓ and so we look at all these businesses that are unicorns and think that's the way to do it. Yeah. Well they're I would bet their ten year overnight successes.
speaker-0: And this is system four.
speaker-1: Yeah. They've been struggling away, working hard, whatever it is. Maybe not in that business per se, but whatever they've been working on, they've it's not something that just went, ⁓ no, I've got an idea, let's do this, and then the next day it's a a billion dollar business. That's not how it works.
speaker-0: Yeah, no, definitely. ⁓ I see that less and less. Like I see that mentality less and less now. For a while I saw a lot of that. But I think now it's a l little bit less now 'cause it's it's too much, it's flooded and people knows how to filter it out. ⁓ in terms of the the ⁓ the section that I got the most out of for the EOS book was the people section. As which was ⁓ and that's my question. I'm gonna talk about my bit ⁓ and I would love to ask you about it too. Is the ⁓ the bit about
speaker-1: Yes.
speaker-0: How the right people, right seats, that kind of thing and wanted ⁓ was it Does it get it? They do they get the role, do they want to do the role and they have the capacity to do it? Right. And then in your experience, is that a part where it's very contentious people part? Because now the people in the room and they kind of see themselves, they go, ⁓ yeah, well, you know, I'm kind of like holding people back, kind of thing. Yeah.
speaker-1: Yeah. So ⁓ it can be contentious if you don't have a structure to deal with it, right? Because how often have you had conversations with people in business and it's been pretty pretty awkward, yeah, very uncomfortable, not working out particularly well. Yeah. So with EOS there's a couple of tools to help you to to get the right people in the right seats and those tools sit around that, you know, have we set our core values? Now every business will say they've got values. Yeah. And I would contend That most businesses, well certainly those not running on EOS, if I asked the leadership team what are the core values here, they probably couldn't tell me. And equally they probably don't know how to execute on them. So it's one thing to go through an exercise to work out your core values, it's another thing to to bring ⁓ to life. And how they're brought to life in EOS is through the people analyzer where every quarter you'll be looking at everyone in the business and assessing them against the core values. Not in a particularly difficult way, but you'll be doing it. And and so and then Once you're assessing them and making sure that they're meeting the standards, awesome, play on. But if they're not, you've got a document to come back to to say, hey, one of our values here is humbly confident. Yeah. ⁓ I'm not seeing you display that. And here's where where I haven't seen you display that. Because to actually assess someone, you've got to have some sort of level of example in your head. So that's about getting the right people in the right s ⁓ the right people in into the business. The right seats is all around the accountability chart. So rather than have an organizational chart Have an accountability chart where you're listing out the functions of the business and understand what the top five accountabilities for each function is and then assign people to those functions. So by way of example, if you had a sales and marketing function, you would say lead generation, brand awareness, digital presence, maybe pipeline management and closed deals. Yeah. Right? Yeah. And then if you're accountable for that, you know they're the five things you're accountable for doing and that's it. Get that done and we're golden. Everything else. So we're being really clear about what what people are accountable for. Yeah. So and we do that through the entire organisation. So that's how you get the and then that doesn't become contentious, Jeremy. That's just this is the way we roll. We're taking the emotion out of it. We're just saying, here's the objective facts. You either are or you aren't. And then we can have the conversation about how we get you to R, about whether we're going to support you and all that sort of stuff. Or whether it's it's time to go. Whatever the case may be, we can work through that.
speaker-0: Yeah, yeah.
speaker-1: But we've got to have a starting point that's based on evidence and structure, not on ⁓ emotional ⁓ positions.
speaker-0: Yeah, I think emotional position is is the one that that really kills me 'cause sometimes the people that got you here don't wanna get you there. You it's a cliche but the game's a game, like sometimes you gotta you gotta move people on.
speaker-1: Yeah, and that's look, that's okay. Some people love start working in startups where it's on and you know, and and like they've got multiple things, hats they're wearing and they've got but then when the business starts to calm down and it's in, okay, well there's not as many firefighting or you know, those issues that happen in the early stages, they're all dealt with now. Now we're going as, you know, let's just let's just keep keep the ball rolling. Let's see if we can grow this business, right? There sometimes they're different skills and yeah. And people aren't suited to that and that's okay. Yeah. The cruelest thing you can do is hold on to them. Yeah.
speaker-0: No, that's true as well. ⁓ one one of the books I don't I I don't know if I have here. ⁓ one of the books I read, I do have it here, that ⁓ this but I don't know if you've read this one. You've probably read a lot of books. The hard things about hard things. Read away? Yeah. Yeah. So one of the things we just touched on, like there's ⁓ like ⁓ what they called, like the wartime CEOs and peacetime CEOs. Yeah. Like the the people that just can't stop, you know, just attack. They love it. Like I'm a peacetime CEO. I'm good at maintaining, growing steadily, you know, managing teaching, development. You know, I mean, if you want me to go outside, like acquisition, fighting is very hard for me. Very difficult, yeah. Yeah.
speaker-1: Yeah, so so you would be perfect as if someone had done that sort of that wartime let's set this up, let's let's get this going. Yeah. They would get bored with what you love doing. So so so do what you love. Yeah.
speaker-0: Yeah. ⁓ with the going back to the thing you said about ⁓ hum humbly confident, right? I don't want to use that as example. I don't want it to put you on the spot or anything, okay? So this is not one of those shows. But you brought it up, so I wanted to ask you, like with a value like that, right? Like how do you ⁓ how do you say, ⁓ you are living up to or you're not living up to? I guess you have example. Is that how you usually work? Yeah.
speaker-1: So so what you would have is you just don't have the label. You have a descriptor that says, you know, we get our job ⁓ we do our job really well. Yeah. We don't do it with arrogance. Yeah. And and so we define what humbly confident means for this organization. Mm. And then we might have an anti example to say, and this is what it doesn't look like. Yeah. Okay. Or you'll have an example of what it does look like. Yeah. Whatever the case may be. Yeah. But you can be really clear about how it is defined in your organisation.
speaker-0: And then when someone goes too far the other side, you can pull them up because
speaker-1: You can say that's with that's outside the guardrails of what was said here. Interesting. So it's not just about having one word or two words. Yeah. And just a quick note for your listeners and your your watchers. Yeah. Don't set core values like professionalism and integrity. Yeah. And the reason for that is do you employ people that aren't professional? Yeah. And and don't have integrity? Because that's what you're really saying. ⁓ that that we have to actually watch it. That should As Pat Lanciani says, that should just be permission to play.
speaker-0: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
speaker-1: Look for something deeper than that. Yeah.
speaker-0: Yeah okay, cool. That's that's given a lot to think about as well. So going on from like I think the the data part is something I really understood because you I'm a peace time CEO. I'm gonna get that. The part where ⁓ frustrates me the most is gonna be the ⁓ the the processes part. Yep. And I tell you why. And and I know that you're gonna hear you've heard this hundreds of times. Is everyone's gonna get to you? I go, ⁓ my business is different. You know, we can't SOP creativity. ⁓ we can't SOP, you know, like it's brilliance. And I love to hear your Basically what you encounter on the field and then I have a follow up question.
speaker-1: Yeah, sure. So yeah, you're right. We get that a lot. Into in importantly about process, we're not we're not about documenting creativity. What it's about is really about documenting business processes that determine the direction of the organisation to be consistent. So what I mean like by that is there should be a sales process in place. Yeah. There'll be a HR process in place. There'll be a couple of operational processes in place as well. But we document them twenty eighty. So document twenty percent of the process that gives you eighty percent of the the process. Beyond that ⁓ is a waste of time and energy because two reasons. ⁓ the first one is ⁓ to get that final twenty percent takes far too much effort and you're wasting time. The second one is if you've got the right people in the right seats, yeah, they don't need prescriptive processes, they need guardrails. Mm. So give them the guardrails and say work within these parameters. These are the processes we want you to deliver. And deliver to this in this way. Yeah. That doesn't mean that creativity stifled. It just says, you know, like step one, if you've got a if you're creating a new marketing campaign, it doesn't say go to Canva or go to AI and do this. It just says step one. st s you know, have a creative meeting with the team. Here's some questions you might want to ask. Step two, document that and take it to Your manager, whatever that might be, but it doesn't prescriptively go to the point to say, use this font, use this colour, do this
speaker-0: Yeah, for sure. I feel so liberated because I'm like, man, like because the way the the and you're gonna hear this hundred of times as well. Like with AI, how fast it's changing things, right? One second you're like, ⁓ you know, I'm gonna put everything on Word doc. The next second it's like, no, you just you know, kind of like put a little database and people running around getting tools and all that. But that's all beyond the scope. It's 'cause it's nothing to do with it. Like yeah, if you know what you're doing, it doesn't matter where you save it. You know what I mean? Like it's it's a process. So eighty twenty is a great way of explaining it. And then you kinda ask some other follow up question as well, which is that in my seven years of business, I actually started in June as well. Yeah. So I was yeah, I was starting in June two thousand nineteen as well, just before one year before COVID. So in my seven years, what I find that ⁓ when it comes to SOPs is that good people, the right people, is gonna figure it out, right? Like pretty close. They're gonna look for it, they go, Okay, cool, that's a structure, I'll go by that. And bad people is gonna stuff it up anyway. Doesn't matter what you do, mate. You know, that's when you know you've got the wrong person. They're gonna find a way to stuff it up. They're gonna purposely look for some loophole that why didn't it do it? Right. Like, ⁓ well you didn't say it on this, you know, step four, whatever. I say, man, you're an idiot. Like that's all it is. I've got the wrong person.
speaker-1: Yeah, that's right. So I wouldn't be looking at process to solve that per se. That's a core values question. Yeah. If they're trying to look for loopholes, that's probably not in line with whatever the core values of your business are, and I'd be calling them up on that. And I would be using the process as an example to say, Yeah, hey, one of our core values here is ⁓ get it done right. I know. Yeah. And you were using this process or doing building this thing last week and this is the process you use and you you were actively looking for loopholes to get around this. That is not in line with get it done right. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. ⁓
speaker-0: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, for sure. And I think after we get through all of that and then comes the part where it's the ⁓ the traction, the proper traction meetings and all that, right? That kicks into it. And when I kind of quizzed you during a pre meeting, I say, Well, how many versions can you do it, right? Like you got you got you got three of them, you got three hundred people, like get and what your answer was like, Well, you gotta get the vision right. You got the vision and the right people's in the room. They know what they're responsible for, they're coming up for they they know what they're why they're attending. Yes. And and my question is with you and working with teams from, you know, locally and overseas, sometimes a mixed team. Yes. Sometimes, you know, you got people joining on Zoom or whatever, you got some live people, you know, people who's got EAs, VAs, whatever. Like and ⁓ sorry, this question is too ⁓ belong. In hospitality businesses, right? When you got the cooks, the chefs, you know, the hospitality people, you know, they They don't even know what they're doing there, for example. Right? They're like, Man, like I don't know why why I'm here kind of thing. Do you do you even get do you get that? Is that a real thing?
speaker-1: Yeah, so it is. So what I would say to that, Jeremy, is it's not that meetings suck, it's just that your meetings suck. Yeah. So ⁓ what that's about is people do things like you've just described, they have all the sundry there at the meetings when they're not required. Yeah. It becomes ⁓ a theatrical performance about look at me, look at all the smart things I'm saying to all these people. Yeah. Rather than running meetings that matter. Yeah. And meetings that matter will have the right people in the room. And that is people that are accountable for whatever they're accountable for, not all the people that they might lead. ⁓ equally, ⁓ those meetings will have a set agenda that starts on time and finishes on time. Any meeting that doesn't have an agenda is a talk fest. Yeah. And that's okay, that might be needed at times, but not not in the EOS world in terms of how we run the business. Yeah. you know, so There is a way to structure meetings to get the most out of your business. And for every business I've worked with, when I've introduced the meeting process or the meeting, the level ten meeting that I talk about in EOS. ⁓ and that's taught to people on d day one, the focus day, about how to have great meetings and walk them through it and show them how it's done. And then they go away and do it and thirty days later they always come back and say, You know, those level ten meetings, they're awesome. We've never we're at we're solving problems, we're getting stuff done. And it's and it's more about structure than it is about the people in the room. Let's follow a structure. Let's deliver to that. Let's get it done. Yeah. But to your and that then cuts out all the noise and stuff that you're talking about is you know, the chef sitting in there and go, Why am I in this leadership team? Well, he shouldn't be.
speaker-0: Yeah, right. So not everyone should be there.
speaker-1: Yeah, he might unless he's on the leadership team or she is on the leadership team, he shouldn't be there. Yeah. But but that's not to say there may not be a level ten meeting happening in in the kitchen on a business running on AOS. Yeah. But the chef will be leading that. And there'll be specific numbers and whatever it is that they're looking at their area. Yeah. So the people in that meeting matter because the chef will be saying to the Sioux chef, you know, is this solving issues, whatever it is? Yeah. You know, there'll be an agenda to follow. Yeah. ⁓ Did we get X number of ⁓ yeah ⁓ stakes in this week or you know, whatever it is, but the numbers will matter to them and then they'll be invested in those meetings. So
speaker-0: They'll be the they they'll know why they're there. Okay. Amazing. Yeah. No amazing stuff, man. ⁓ as we come to ⁓ towards the end, I I listened to your episode with ⁓ Ashley. Yeah. And and would they they didn't go you guys didn't go into this too much, but in terms of like frequency, I know sometimes it's like twelve to eighteen months. That's when, you know, someone's not healed, but like they they've adopted, they're on board, they know how to do it themselves, they're independent. ⁓ how does the beginning look like for you listeners and watchers? Like they're like I I wanna get this guy in, but I don't know if I can afford him, I don't know he how how involved he's gonna be. Yeah. Yeah. Could you give people a rundown of what scenarios? Yeah.
speaker-1: Yeah. There's two parts to that, Jeremy. The first thing is everything that is in the EOS world can be self implemented. So you don't need an implementer, you can actually do it yourself. ⁓ and and that's okay. It's a do no harm system. So even if you pick up a few bits and pieces and just use that, great, it'll make your business better. So you don't need an implementer. You can do it yourself. The second part is if you are using an implementer, what does that look like? Well, you know, imagine if you're driving from Melbourne to Sydney. Or trying to get from Melbourne to Sydney. You could drive and you'd probably have to avoid avoid a few potholes on the way in Victoria 'cause the roads are terrible, but ⁓ but you'll eventually get to Sydney. ⁓ it'll take a b bit longer than if you flew, you you'll be a bit tired, your car might need a service, all that sort of stuff. But you'll get there. Using implementer is like going to the airport and getting on an aeroplane and and getting there faster, quicker and easier. ⁓ and and in terms of what does that look like? So you know As I said earlier, ⁓ if you're just thinking about using AOS, then just do a ninety minute meeting with an implementer. It's free.
speaker-0: That's what it is. Right. Okay. Got ya. All right. Cool. So they can do a ninety minute meeting. That's a start. Yes. Please continue.
speaker-1: And then after that, if you decide you want to move forward, then you go to a focus day. And then that's all the stuff we spoke about earlier. Then you'll go to two vision building days, which are thirty days apart. Yep. ⁓ and you'll you'll complete all your vision. And then you just go into a ninety day world. So every n ninety days the implementer comes back and talks to you and sets new rocks and helps you solve issues, all that sort of stuff. ⁓ interesting.
speaker-0: So it's actually not that frequent. No. ⁓
speaker-1: No, and the and the reason for that is about developing independence for the leadership team. Yeah. They own the system, the implementer implements it. So they come back every ninety days, but you'd be surprised that ninety days goes pretty quick. Yeah, it does. And then every year we do a two day annual ⁓ session back ⁓ two days back to back. So you're roughly looking at about ⁓ ten, you know, face to face sessions if you like with the implementer. Yep. ⁓ and beyond that there's telephone calls and you know might come to a couple of level tens meetings to make sure you're running them effectively. Yeah. There'll be a few check ins along the way. Yeah, for sure. But essentially, ⁓ is you know, keep you on track, get it done and move forward. Okay. ⁓ Yeah, that's what it looks like. And yeah. As as you heard, it was about takes about eighteen to twenty four months, then you'll get it and you won't need an implementer and you can do it yourself and off you go. Keep running on EOS. Yeah.
speaker-0: I love it. ⁓ so just to be clear on the on the implementation side, because I think at some point in time my business will need it when I grow bigger, right? ⁓ and and w I know that I can't implement those ⁓ those ⁓ weekly meetings. I go off the sides a little bit, you know? Yeah and and I think the 90 days are hard to keep up. I mix issues with rocks. Do you know what I mean? Like I don't know the how to identify it. So issues become rocks. So it's kinda like me at a consortium process. And I'm speaking from the inside. Like I'm not speaking from the outside. I've been trying to do this for like five, six years. Yeah. Right. And I know the piff fours that I fall over. So I think at some point in time I'll need that. ⁓ my ⁓ my my question is is so people can go to a like it feels like at the start, there's not a big, big commitment. People can go to one, go to the vision days, right? And then decide if it's for them or not, kinda thing, yeah?
speaker-1: Yeah, they go to the ninety minute meeting, decide whether it's for them. Each implementer will will let ⁓ know what the cost is at that stage because some implementers charge less, some implementers charge more. Yeah. ⁓ whatever it might be, and you can get a full picture of that and understand that. Yeah. But in terms of, you know, overall ⁓ cost, you know, it could range. So it's hard to put a figure on that. Yeah. ⁓ but as a minimum you could probably look at twenty five K as a minimum, you're probably looking at twenty five K yeah. Yeah. ⁓ but it could it could extend because of the
speaker-0: The the thing, yeah. So we're looking looking at businesses that's doing over mill revenue or so, yeah. Doing b steady steady business, right? Established business. Yeah. Right. Yeah, that's what's good for with a team.
speaker-1: Yeah. So what I would say to that is ⁓ if you don't know what your product is or what your market is, don't use EOS. Work out what your product and market is before you use EOS because EOS is all about execution. And if you don't know what you're executing on, then ⁓ you're you're burning cash. So work that out first and then and then think about, okay, well now we know our market. We've got a product, we're solving a problem. Okay, let's get some structure around this. Let's go. Okay. That's when I'd suggest you use it.
speaker-0: Mm. Got you. Okay, cool. That's just cool. I think the the market will be like anyone who's revving about a meal or more. Right. They they're doing a they're doing over a meal. They want to invest in proper coaching. Right. They want to invest in system implementation. And then it just kinda comes about checking fit. Do I like Mary Smith? Do I like another guy? And yeah, kinda kinda go from there. Exactly. That's ⁓ no, I think it's been a really wonderful chat. ⁓ and thanks again for ⁓ jumping on. Do we do we leave anything out? Do you feel like? Is anyone that you want to shout out? Any I mean we're gonna have your backlinks. Is there anything else that you wanna shout out? No.
speaker-1: No, well the only thing I'd say is it doesn't hurt to find out what you don't know. Yeah. And so, you know, if you have the opportunity to take a ninety minute meeting with an implementer, do it. There's no obligation but you'll probably find out some things about yourself and your business anyway. So even if you don't proceed if you'll get a you'll get a copy of traction out of it and someone will will have a look at your business and say ⁓ and show you what what might be possible in that ninety minutes and Yeah, a hundred percent. And so, you know, y you can either spend sixty hours a week crunching yeah you know, you and your life. Or you could take ninety minutes out of your day one day to find out what your business could look like. So just do that.
speaker-0: Amazing. Cool. And I'll make sure that your links are in the in the show notes. If people want to get hold of you, they can get hold of you on LinkedIn and on the yeah through the show notes. Great. No worries, right? All right. Thanks again. All right. Thanks guys for everyone for listening. Talk to you next next episode. Hey, what's up? Jeremy Yang, the online ads guy here, owner of Digital Glass Marketing. If you ⁓ found whatever you're watching helpful, you found it interesting, like, subscribe, comment.
speaker-1: Yeah. Thanks very much, Jeremy.
speaker-0: Suggest other topics you think we should cover here. We've aimed to release weekly episodes helping SMEs with marketing, advertising, talking to professionals about growth, processes, all that good stuff. Right, see you on the next one.
speaker-1: Yeah, good to be here, Jeremy. Thanks for having me on.
speaker-0: No, for sure, man. It's good to have another Aussie on as well. Yeah, yeah. So ⁓ yeah, no, I mean like it's always interesting and ⁓ today you're ⁓ EOS implementer, right? EOS implementer. ⁓ love it 'cause I'm I'm a fan. I have all the books I want to quickly show you. Well done. I got I got all four. ⁓ yeah, EOS ⁓ entrepreneur operating system is something I grabbed when I first started business about seven years ago. And then I was always always fascinated by EOS implementers. And today I ha I have one on here on the show with me. So ⁓ yeah, man, thanks so much for for jumping on. And can you give s ⁓ the people who don't know what EOS or the traction system is a quick rundown, like the quick version of it?
speaker-1: Yeah. So EOS is the entrepreneurial operating system. It was ⁓ born in the United States some twenty five years ago. But what it's really about is getting what you want from your business and doing that you focus on six key components of your business rather than firefighting every day. So making sure and and none of this is particularly, you know, earth shattering stuff. It's just about the execution of it. So you've got to make sure you've got a great vision ⁓ that that everyone shares and everyone understands and they're aligned to it. You got the right people in the right seats. You're measuring your business off the numbers, not gut feel. You're solving issues so they don't hang around forever, ⁓ because plenty of businesses love talking but don't actually like doing. And then ⁓ making sure you've got the right processes in place to get a consistent result across your business. And the final bit is traction. It's about execution and and that's where the the secret source is. Everyone's got ideas, but not many people can execute. And that's the value of EOS. It really ⁓ puts a framework around execution and around your ideas and makes that happen. Yeah.
speaker-0: Yeah, nice. ⁓ how popular now is it in Australia w with you know, your Os
speaker-1: Yeah, well it's a good question, Jeremy. When I started ⁓ my first ⁓ EOS implementation was in June twenty nineteen and ⁓ at that at that stage, you know, there was about maybe ⁓ maybe fifteen implementers in Australia at that point. There's now about forty five. ⁓ wow. ⁓ so there's you know, but I would still say in terms of what's available to business businesses in Australia, we're still just scratching the surface. We've worked Probably with over a thousand businesses, you know, all the implementers, not me personally. Yeah. but of course there's about two point one million businesses in Australia yeah that would fit this target market. So like I say, we're just scratching the surface. Yeah. ⁓ but we're making a difference and that's what matters.
speaker-0: Yeah, nice. And you're you're you doing the circuits around the the podcast circuit and all that. That's all but to bring awareness to the this kind of thing. Yeah. Yeah.
speaker-1: Yeah, that's right. So so y ⁓ you know, this is this is part of it. Like you know, it's all very well to hand out books of which you've got a few there, but yeah, ⁓ that that can get you so far. It's really about understanding there is another way to run your business. And the best way to do that is to talk to people like y yourself. Yeah. You know, particularly with with your background, you can understand specifically why why ⁓ why why we're here talking about this because you know, marketing is crucial to any operation.
speaker-0: But yeah, big time. I mean I I'm a fan as well. I'm coming from a fan, but I have questions because as you know, I was talking in the pre pre-chat. I think I do my own version of EOS. It's probably not not the right version. ⁓ but that's something that I want to get into. But just going back a little bit as well, like I think it's important for listeners to understand the the credibility, your street cred. Like how you came about, right? You just didn't walk into this one day, right?
speaker-1: No. Well, so if you're talking about me personally, you know, I come from a family of engineers. I didn't get into the family business, didn't like getting my hands greasy, so didn't do it. ⁓ stayed at school, finished school, got accepted into chemical engineering, did that for a few months, worked out I'd be on oil rigs and getting greasy hands, so it wasn't gonna be me. ⁓ dropped out of university. Mum wasn't too happy about that, but She said as long as you get a job. So I held down a couple of menial jobs for a couple of months. Then I ended up in Victoria Police for fifteen years and worked ⁓ in various locations doing various things. Stories for another day. but along the way I was seriously injured at work and then I returned to study. So I completed an undergraduate degree and then I completed a masters in human resource management and industrial relations. And at the fifteen year mark, Victoria Police, I kinda just outgrew the organisation, wanted to use my new skills. And then I just started restructuring and setting up organisations and on that journey ⁓ had an itch to scratch about studying overseas. So I went and did an executive programme at Harvard University to work out whether I could hack studying overseas, came back, knew that I could. So then I applied to go back to Harvard and to MIT and, you know, had the first world problem of I got accepted into both and had to decide whether I go to Harvard or MIT. I chose to go to MIT, got my MBA there, and then when I ret ⁓ st lived in America while I completed that and then returned to Australia, held down interim executive job for a while, just restructuring again. And then a friend of mine had handed me a copy of the book Traction that you've got there. And I read it and he said, I think you'd make a good implementer and then I made the jump to do that and did boot camp and then started implementing with clients in June twenty nineteen. So that's a really quick version of of me. Yeah ⁓ in terms of EOS. You know, if you think about it, ⁓ it's been around for about twenty, twenty five years. Started in Detroit, ⁓ with the author of that book, Traction, Geno Wickman. From there it's iterated into what you see today. But there's ⁓ about nine hundred and fifty implementers around the world. ⁓ there's about three hundred and ⁓ sorry, there's thirty three thousand businesses that have either worked with an implementer or are working with an implementer currently with over a hundred and fifty thousand session days and There's another hundred thousand businesses using of which you are one. Yeah. Using parts or all of the EOS tools.
speaker-0: Massive. I think it's gonna get it's I think it's already quite popular. I think, you know, ⁓ in terms of like, is there anything else like it in in the marketplace?
speaker-1: Well, ⁓ I'm sure there is. ⁓ having said that, ⁓ th this probably goes to your marketing background, Jeremy. Is whilst ⁓ competition is healthy and good, yeah, my view is ⁓ I'm sure there's some great systems out there, but I focus on doing the best I can with EOS and delivering the the ⁓ service excellence with that. So if people want to use any system, great. Whatever makes your business better. Yeah but I focus on making sure that what I supply is the best that I can possibly do. Yeah. ⁓ rather than worry about what other people might be supplying.
speaker-0: I just didn't know if there was 'cause I I've never ⁓ I've never seen something similar. Yeah. Right. And I read a lot of systems that I haven't seen something similar that can be applied for smaller to bigger businesses. Yeah.
speaker-1: Yeah. Well, I I think what what you're probably touching on there, Jeremy, is really about ⁓ the simplicity. Yes. Yes. Simplicity doesn't mean easy. It just means that you can grasp the concepts quickly, but also the the tools are there to execute quickly as well. And it you don't need, ⁓ you know, some sort of background in rocket science to apply it. That's right. ⁓ it's it just allows you to look at simple numbers and and do simple things to change your business and it and it makes logical sense from that perspective, you know, like Yeah. You're not diving deeply into finance, although you will have a someone in a finance seat, but yeah at at at the highest level we wanna know the basics, like have we got enough revenue and do we have enough profit? And yeah, are there numbers that support that? Yeah.
speaker-0: ⁓ for sure. Let's get into specifics then. ⁓ the components, right? The first one is vision. ⁓ what what ⁓ so two questions. First, do we always start with the vision piece? Or like depends on like where you step into the company, like is it something else first? How how's that usually work for you?
speaker-1: So it's a good question. We don't start with vision. We we say ⁓ traction first, vision second. So in other words, we'll teach you the tools to execute on the first day that we work with you. Because to be to be frank, I d I don't care what your vision is. If you can't execute, then it really doesn't matter what your vision is. So you've got to learn the tools to be able to execute in your business. So that's things like looking at numbers and understanding what they look like. ⁓ what does accountability look like in your business? How do we set up the t the leadership team for success? Yeah. What do ⁓ priorities look like and how do we set them? So it's a spaced learning exercise, but essentially, you know, execution is the key to everything. Too much time is spent people, you know, navel gazing about whatever they want to be, and not enough time on getting it done. And this is about getting it done. So we will give you the tools to get it done and then we will set your vision up. Now the space between those is only thirty days, so you're looking about a you know, sixty day cycle and you'll be ready to go into the ninety day world. But the first thing we do is make sure you can execute. And then we worry.
speaker-0: So so y when you first come into a business, you don't actually sit down and talk about vision. You go here, here's the stuff, get the game, get the ball rolling, get some momentum happening. All right. And then we've got a talking thirty days. Yep. And then go from there. It's it's also ⁓ like a good filter, right? It's also a good filter to see who's not that who who's not really gonna do anything, yeah.
speaker-1: I'm sorry, it's also Yeah. So what'll happen is the the leadership team well, in all the businesses I've implemented with and there's over sixty five now. Yeah. ⁓ I've never started and finished with the same leadership.
speaker-0: Heard that from other than another episode. Yeah, very interesting. Yeah.
speaker-1: So so that's not about getting rid of people. Sometimes that's about, you know, the business is going well and they have to expand. But I've never started and finished. But the point being, and to your point about when you start talking about accountability on the first day and really say this is about execution, this is what we need to do. You're accountable for doing this. Sometimes you get the old whoa, what do you ⁓ what do you mean I'm accountable? yeah. w aren't we all accountable? Yeah, yeah. ⁓ you know, there's ⁓ there's sometimes that happens and You know, sometimes it's just not a good fit for for some people and that's okay, it doesn't make them bad people, just means they're not suited to to the business that I'm working with. Yeah.
speaker-0: just probably not yet or whatever. Or they're not buying to the system yet. So a lot of time you come in like I mean I I had this question for later, but now that we're talking about it so a lot of time you come in like maybe only one person out of the six that you're working with heard about EOS or read the book, very psyched. And you gotta get the buying of the other five, right? On the if they're doing that on day one.
speaker-1: Yeah, so how that works. Yeah. So what I'll do before I start the process, which is the focus day, there's a step before that called the ninety minute meeting. Yeah. And what I'll do is I'll do that with the entire leadership team. Yeah. And the reason I do it with the entire leadership team is so that they're all reading off the same page when they walk into the focus day and they know what they're about to get into. Yeah. But the ninety minute meeting, and again this goes to, you know, the the point about marketing is we've got to work out whether there's a fit there, both for them In terms of is EOS right for that business? Mm-hmm. Equally, am I right for that business? Mm-hmm. But just as importantly, are they right for me? So this is all about a fit conversation. So before they walk into that first day, they know what's going to happen. They know my style. They know what what the process will be, what the steps are, because we take ⁓ through all that. And then it's just about let's get on with it. Now, ⁓ yeah, most people in the ninety minute meetings go, Wow, this is really exciting. Let's get but But they all walk in with the same level of knowledge in terms of that a base baseline level of knowledge. Now some would have read traction before that day and that's okay. Yeah. ⁓ there's no problem with that. And some won't. And there's no problem with that either.
speaker-0: Got you. So they don't have to buy in already to the system before implementing Yeah, got you. Okay, nice. ⁓ now now my question around vision, because that's the first piece, you know, in the book, that's the first piece, right? Yep. And always wanted to know, ⁓ like how how transparent do you be? Because my goals are like, I want profit, I want to work like 15 hours, you know what I mean? But and I've just redone it after speaking to you. But back then it was like top line revenue. Okay, some of that stuff we can reveal. Right? Yes. Where you where you're getting stuff from or whatever. Some sometimes you know, it's personal kind of vision, you know, for me as a owner. Like yeah, what's your what's your balance in the in the thing? Like how do you
speaker-1: Yeah, so I get the concept. Sometimes there's sensitivities around what people want to disclose and so forth. Yeah. Yeah. But what you've got it w firstly, what I tell people about the businesses they run is they are for profit exercises and you should embrace that. You're not running a charity and you're not running a not for profit in some other description. You're running a for profit exercise and you should be ⁓ commended for that. And you shouldn't sh shirk away from that. The second part is about what What do you need to share about personal goals? Well, it's not really about personal goals. This is about the business and we'll do what's right for the business. So if you want to sell the business in three years, do you have to declare that? Well, in my view, no, because that's not the goal. The goal is really to have a great business that's really attractive for others to buy, right? Exactly. So yeah but let's build a business that is, you know, got great recurring revenue if that's your goal. That's good profit, that it's got the right people in the right seats, that it's well documented and it doesn't rely on personality, it right relies on a structure and a discipline and a rhythm. And then you can have whatever you want, whether it's your work fifteen hours a week or whether you sell it or whatever it is, it doesn't matter. Ultimately, if you want to do any of that, you've got to have a great business. So let's strip it back and say, Let's have a great business. Yeah, and then and then and then we can work out what's next.
speaker-0: So me just say in as as a goal, right? And I said the owner is gonna work fifteen hours, he's gonna make three hundred thousand and all that, is that still okay to put that as the as the vision kind of thing?
speaker-1: No, because it's not that's not the goal of the business. That's the that's the individual goal. The individual the the goal of the business is to develop to to a point that you can do that. And in fact you should be trying to do that. Yeah. So you're gonna got time to do other things. You don't start all this do all this work just to keep working really, really hard. Yeah. ⁓ If that's not understood by the individual, then that that's a problem. But ultimately what we want is a great business.
speaker-0: So how do you translate that into a so you're talking about top line revenue? Yeah and you know, like yeah, you know, we're gonna get the seats filled. Yep. With that kind of thing, right?
speaker-1: Yeah, that's right. And you're gonna say we're gonna hit these numbers, revenue targets. Here's how we're gonna do it. We've got to do X, Y, and Z. Yep. We've got to put these things in place. Okay, let's put those things in place. ⁓ all those things are important to drive you to what you wanna be ⁓ as a business. The outcome of having a great business is then Freedom. You know what what will be will be. And and so that's the problem. Too many people are focusing on the prize. Yeah. But they're not prepared to pay the price. Right? The prize is to have that fifteen hours a week, you know, ⁓ having a profitable business where you may not have to be in there every day, great. Yeah. But you've got to pay the price. You've got to set it up so that can happen. It just doesn't happen magically. ⁓ and so we look at all these businesses that are unicorns and think that's the way to do it. Yeah. Well they're I would bet their ten year overnight successes.
speaker-0: And this is system four.
speaker-1: Yeah. They've been struggling away, working hard, whatever it is. Maybe not in that business per se, but whatever they've been working on, they've it's not something that just went, ⁓ no, I've got an idea, let's do this, and then the next day it's a a billion dollar business. That's not how it works.
speaker-0: Yeah, no, definitely. ⁓ I see that less and less. Like I see that mentality less and less now. For a while I saw a lot of that. But I think now it's a l little bit less now 'cause it's it's too much, it's flooded and people knows how to filter it out. ⁓ in terms of the the ⁓ the section that I got the most out of for the EOS book was the people section. As which was ⁓ and that's my question. I'm gonna talk about my bit ⁓ and I would love to ask you about it too. Is the ⁓ the bit about
speaker-1: Yes.
speaker-0: How the right people, right seats, that kind of thing and wanted ⁓ was it Does it get it? They do they get the role, do they want to do the role and they have the capacity to do it? Right. And then in your experience, is that a part where it's very contentious people part? Because now the people in the room and they kind of see themselves, they go, ⁓ yeah, well, you know, I'm kind of like holding people back, kind of thing. Yeah.
speaker-1: Yeah. So ⁓ it can be contentious if you don't have a structure to deal with it, right? Because how often have you had conversations with people in business and it's been pretty pretty awkward, yeah, very uncomfortable, not working out particularly well. Yeah. So with EOS there's a couple of tools to help you to to get the right people in the right seats and those tools sit around that, you know, have we set our core values? Now every business will say they've got values. Yeah. And I would contend That most businesses, well certainly those not running on EOS, if I asked the leadership team what are the core values here, they probably couldn't tell me. And equally they probably don't know how to execute on them. So it's one thing to go through an exercise to work out your core values, it's another thing to to bring ⁓ to life. And how they're brought to life in EOS is through the people analyzer where every quarter you'll be looking at everyone in the business and assessing them against the core values. Not in a particularly difficult way, but you'll be doing it. And and so and then Once you're assessing them and making sure that they're meeting the standards, awesome, play on. But if they're not, you've got a document to come back to to say, hey, one of our values here is humbly confident. Yeah. ⁓ I'm not seeing you display that. And here's where where I haven't seen you display that. Because to actually assess someone, you've got to have some sort of level of example in your head. So that's about getting the right people in the right s ⁓ the right people in into the business. The right seats is all around the accountability chart. So rather than have an organizational chart Have an accountability chart where you're listing out the functions of the business and understand what the top five accountabilities for each function is and then assign people to those functions. So by way of example, if you had a sales and marketing function, you would say lead generation, brand awareness, digital presence, maybe pipeline management and closed deals. Yeah. Right? Yeah. And then if you're accountable for that, you know they're the five things you're accountable for doing and that's it. Get that done and we're golden. Everything else. So we're being really clear about what what people are accountable for. Yeah. So and we do that through the entire organisation. So that's how you get the and then that doesn't become contentious, Jeremy. That's just this is the way we roll. We're taking the emotion out of it. We're just saying, here's the objective facts. You either are or you aren't. And then we can have the conversation about how we get you to R, about whether we're going to support you and all that sort of stuff. Or whether it's it's time to go. Whatever the case may be, we can work through that.
speaker-0: Yeah, yeah.
speaker-1: But we've got to have a starting point that's based on evidence and structure, not on ⁓ emotional ⁓ positions.
speaker-0: Yeah, I think emotional position is is the one that that really kills me 'cause sometimes the people that got you here don't wanna get you there. You it's a cliche but the game's a game, like sometimes you gotta you gotta move people on.
speaker-1: Yeah, and that's look, that's okay. Some people love start working in startups where it's on and you know, and and like they've got multiple things, hats they're wearing and they've got but then when the business starts to calm down and it's in, okay, well there's not as many firefighting or you know, those issues that happen in the early stages, they're all dealt with now. Now we're going as, you know, let's just let's just keep keep the ball rolling. Let's see if we can grow this business, right? There sometimes they're different skills and yeah. And people aren't suited to that and that's okay. Yeah. The cruelest thing you can do is hold on to them. Yeah.
speaker-0: No, that's true as well. ⁓ one one of the books I don't I I don't know if I have here. ⁓ one of the books I read, I do have it here, that ⁓ this but I don't know if you've read this one. You've probably read a lot of books. The hard things about hard things. Read away? Yeah. Yeah. So one of the things we just touched on, like there's ⁓ like ⁓ what they called, like the wartime CEOs and peacetime CEOs. Yeah. Like the the people that just can't stop, you know, just attack. They love it. Like I'm a peacetime CEO. I'm good at maintaining, growing steadily, you know, managing teaching, development. You know, I mean, if you want me to go outside, like acquisition, fighting is very hard for me. Very difficult, yeah. Yeah.
speaker-1: Yeah, so so you would be perfect as if someone had done that sort of that wartime let's set this up, let's let's get this going. Yeah. They would get bored with what you love doing. So so so do what you love. Yeah.
speaker-0: Yeah. ⁓ with the going back to the thing you said about ⁓ hum humbly confident, right? I don't want to use that as example. I don't want it to put you on the spot or anything, okay? So this is not one of those shows. But you brought it up, so I wanted to ask you, like with a value like that, right? Like how do you ⁓ how do you say, ⁓ you are living up to or you're not living up to? I guess you have example. Is that how you usually work? Yeah.
speaker-1: So so what you would have is you just don't have the label. You have a descriptor that says, you know, we get our job ⁓ we do our job really well. Yeah. We don't do it with arrogance. Yeah. And and so we define what humbly confident means for this organization. Mm. And then we might have an anti example to say, and this is what it doesn't look like. Yeah. Okay. Or you'll have an example of what it does look like. Yeah. Whatever the case may be. Yeah. But you can be really clear about how it is defined in your organisation.
speaker-0: And then when someone goes too far the other side, you can pull them up because
speaker-1: You can say that's with that's outside the guardrails of what was said here. Interesting. So it's not just about having one word or two words. Yeah. And just a quick note for your listeners and your your watchers. Yeah. Don't set core values like professionalism and integrity. Yeah. And the reason for that is do you employ people that aren't professional? Yeah. And and don't have integrity? Because that's what you're really saying. ⁓ that that we have to actually watch it. That should As Pat Lanciani says, that should just be permission to play.
speaker-0: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
speaker-1: Look for something deeper than that. Yeah.
speaker-0: Yeah okay, cool. That's that's given a lot to think about as well. So going on from like I think the the data part is something I really understood because you I'm a peace time CEO. I'm gonna get that. The part where ⁓ frustrates me the most is gonna be the ⁓ the the processes part. Yep. And I tell you why. And and I know that you're gonna hear you've heard this hundreds of times. Is everyone's gonna get to you? I go, ⁓ my business is different. You know, we can't SOP creativity. ⁓ we can't SOP, you know, like it's brilliance. And I love to hear your Basically what you encounter on the field and then I have a follow up question.
speaker-1: Yeah, sure. So yeah, you're right. We get that a lot. Into in importantly about process, we're not we're not about documenting creativity. What it's about is really about documenting business processes that determine the direction of the organisation to be consistent. So what I mean like by that is there should be a sales process in place. Yeah. There'll be a HR process in place. There'll be a couple of operational processes in place as well. But we document them twenty eighty. So document twenty percent of the process that gives you eighty percent of the the process. Beyond that ⁓ is a waste of time and energy because two reasons. ⁓ the first one is ⁓ to get that final twenty percent takes far too much effort and you're wasting time. The second one is if you've got the right people in the right seats, yeah, they don't need prescriptive processes, they need guardrails. Mm. So give them the guardrails and say work within these parameters. These are the processes we want you to deliver. And deliver to this in this way. Yeah. That doesn't mean that creativity stifled. It just says, you know, like step one, if you've got a if you're creating a new marketing campaign, it doesn't say go to Canva or go to AI and do this. It just says step one. st s you know, have a creative meeting with the team. Here's some questions you might want to ask. Step two, document that and take it to Your manager, whatever that might be, but it doesn't prescriptively go to the point to say, use this font, use this colour, do this
speaker-0: Yeah, for sure. I feel so liberated because I'm like, man, like because the way the the and you're gonna hear this hundred of times as well. Like with AI, how fast it's changing things, right? One second you're like, ⁓ you know, I'm gonna put everything on Word doc. The next second it's like, no, you just you know, kind of like put a little database and people running around getting tools and all that. But that's all beyond the scope. It's 'cause it's nothing to do with it. Like yeah, if you know what you're doing, it doesn't matter where you save it. You know what I mean? Like it's it's a process. So eighty twenty is a great way of explaining it. And then you kinda ask some other follow up question as well, which is that in my seven years of business, I actually started in June as well. Yeah. So I was yeah, I was starting in June two thousand nineteen as well, just before one year before COVID. So in my seven years, what I find that ⁓ when it comes to SOPs is that good people, the right people, is gonna figure it out, right? Like pretty close. They're gonna look for it, they go, Okay, cool, that's a structure, I'll go by that. And bad people is gonna stuff it up anyway. Doesn't matter what you do, mate. You know, that's when you know you've got the wrong person. They're gonna find a way to stuff it up. They're gonna purposely look for some loophole that why didn't it do it? Right. Like, ⁓ well you didn't say it on this, you know, step four, whatever. I say, man, you're an idiot. Like that's all it is. I've got the wrong person.
speaker-1: Yeah, that's right. So I wouldn't be looking at process to solve that per se. That's a core values question. Yeah. If they're trying to look for loopholes, that's probably not in line with whatever the core values of your business are, and I'd be calling them up on that. And I would be using the process as an example to say, Yeah, hey, one of our core values here is ⁓ get it done right. I know. Yeah. And you were using this process or doing building this thing last week and this is the process you use and you you were actively looking for loopholes to get around this. That is not in line with get it done right. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. ⁓
speaker-0: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, for sure. And I think after we get through all of that and then comes the part where it's the ⁓ the traction, the proper traction meetings and all that, right? That kicks into it. And when I kind of quizzed you during a pre meeting, I say, Well, how many versions can you do it, right? Like you got you got you got three of them, you got three hundred people, like get and what your answer was like, Well, you gotta get the vision right. You got the vision and the right people's in the room. They know what they're responsible for, they're coming up for they they know what they're why they're attending. Yes. And and my question is with you and working with teams from, you know, locally and overseas, sometimes a mixed team. Yes. Sometimes, you know, you got people joining on Zoom or whatever, you got some live people, you know, people who's got EAs, VAs, whatever. Like and ⁓ sorry, this question is too ⁓ belong. In hospitality businesses, right? When you got the cooks, the chefs, you know, the hospitality people, you know, they They don't even know what they're doing there, for example. Right? They're like, Man, like I don't know why why I'm here kind of thing. Do you do you even get do you get that? Is that a real thing?
speaker-1: Yeah, so it is. So what I would say to that, Jeremy, is it's not that meetings suck, it's just that your meetings suck. Yeah. So ⁓ what that's about is people do things like you've just described, they have all the sundry there at the meetings when they're not required. Yeah. It becomes ⁓ a theatrical performance about look at me, look at all the smart things I'm saying to all these people. Yeah. Rather than running meetings that matter. Yeah. And meetings that matter will have the right people in the room. And that is people that are accountable for whatever they're accountable for, not all the people that they might lead. ⁓ equally, ⁓ those meetings will have a set agenda that starts on time and finishes on time. Any meeting that doesn't have an agenda is a talk fest. Yeah. And that's okay, that might be needed at times, but not not in the EOS world in terms of how we run the business. Yeah. you know, so There is a way to structure meetings to get the most out of your business. And for every business I've worked with, when I've introduced the meeting process or the meeting, the level ten meeting that I talk about in EOS. ⁓ and that's taught to people on d day one, the focus day, about how to have great meetings and walk them through it and show them how it's done. And then they go away and do it and thirty days later they always come back and say, You know, those level ten meetings, they're awesome. We've never we're at we're solving problems, we're getting stuff done. And it's and it's more about structure than it is about the people in the room. Let's follow a structure. Let's deliver to that. Let's get it done. Yeah. But to your and that then cuts out all the noise and stuff that you're talking about is you know, the chef sitting in there and go, Why am I in this leadership team? Well, he shouldn't be.
speaker-0: Yeah, right. So not everyone should be there.
speaker-1: Yeah, he might unless he's on the leadership team or she is on the leadership team, he shouldn't be there. Yeah. But but that's not to say there may not be a level ten meeting happening in in the kitchen on a business running on AOS. Yeah. But the chef will be leading that. And there'll be specific numbers and whatever it is that they're looking at their area. Yeah. So the people in that meeting matter because the chef will be saying to the Sioux chef, you know, is this solving issues, whatever it is? Yeah. You know, there'll be an agenda to follow. Yeah. ⁓ Did we get X number of ⁓ yeah ⁓ stakes in this week or you know, whatever it is, but the numbers will matter to them and then they'll be invested in those meetings. So
speaker-0: They'll be the they they'll know why they're there. Okay. Amazing. Yeah. No amazing stuff, man. ⁓ as we come to ⁓ towards the end, I I listened to your episode with ⁓ Ashley. Yeah. And and would they they didn't go you guys didn't go into this too much, but in terms of like frequency, I know sometimes it's like twelve to eighteen months. That's when, you know, someone's not healed, but like they they've adopted, they're on board, they know how to do it themselves, they're independent. ⁓ how does the beginning look like for you listeners and watchers? Like they're like I I wanna get this guy in, but I don't know if I can afford him, I don't know he how how involved he's gonna be. Yeah. Yeah. Could you give people a rundown of what scenarios? Yeah.
speaker-1: Yeah. There's two parts to that, Jeremy. The first thing is everything that is in the EOS world can be self implemented. So you don't need an implementer, you can actually do it yourself. ⁓ and and that's okay. It's a do no harm system. So even if you pick up a few bits and pieces and just use that, great, it'll make your business better. So you don't need an implementer. You can do it yourself. The second part is if you are using an implementer, what does that look like? Well, you know, imagine if you're driving from Melbourne to Sydney. Or trying to get from Melbourne to Sydney. You could drive and you'd probably have to avoid avoid a few potholes on the way in Victoria 'cause the roads are terrible, but ⁓ but you'll eventually get to Sydney. ⁓ it'll take a b bit longer than if you flew, you you'll be a bit tired, your car might need a service, all that sort of stuff. But you'll get there. Using implementer is like going to the airport and getting on an aeroplane and and getting there faster, quicker and easier. ⁓ and and in terms of what does that look like? So you know As I said earlier, ⁓ if you're just thinking about using AOS, then just do a ninety minute meeting with an implementer. It's free.
speaker-0: That's what it is. Right. Okay. Got ya. All right. Cool. So they can do a ninety minute meeting. That's a start. Yes. Please continue.
speaker-1: And then after that, if you decide you want to move forward, then you go to a focus day. And then that's all the stuff we spoke about earlier. Then you'll go to two vision building days, which are thirty days apart. Yep. ⁓ and you'll you'll complete all your vision. And then you just go into a ninety day world. So every n ninety days the implementer comes back and talks to you and sets new rocks and helps you solve issues, all that sort of stuff. ⁓ interesting.
speaker-0: So it's actually not that frequent. No. ⁓
speaker-1: No, and the and the reason for that is about developing independence for the leadership team. Yeah. They own the system, the implementer implements it. So they come back every ninety days, but you'd be surprised that ninety days goes pretty quick. Yeah, it does. And then every year we do a two day annual ⁓ session back ⁓ two days back to back. So you're roughly looking at about ⁓ ten, you know, face to face sessions if you like with the implementer. Yep. ⁓ and beyond that there's telephone calls and you know might come to a couple of level tens meetings to make sure you're running them effectively. Yeah. There'll be a few check ins along the way. Yeah, for sure. But essentially, ⁓ is you know, keep you on track, get it done and move forward. Okay. ⁓ Yeah, that's what it looks like. And yeah. As as you heard, it was about takes about eighteen to twenty four months, then you'll get it and you won't need an implementer and you can do it yourself and off you go. Keep running on EOS. Yeah.
speaker-0: I love it. ⁓ so just to be clear on the on the implementation side, because I think at some point in time my business will need it when I grow bigger, right? ⁓ and and w I know that I can't implement those ⁓ those ⁓ weekly meetings. I go off the sides a little bit, you know? Yeah and and I think the 90 days are hard to keep up. I mix issues with rocks. Do you know what I mean? Like I don't know the how to identify it. So issues become rocks. So it's kinda like me at a consortium process. And I'm speaking from the inside. Like I'm not speaking from the outside. I've been trying to do this for like five, six years. Yeah. Right. And I know the piff fours that I fall over. So I think at some point in time I'll need that. ⁓ my ⁓ my my question is is so people can go to a like it feels like at the start, there's not a big, big commitment. People can go to one, go to the vision days, right? And then decide if it's for them or not, kinda thing, yeah?
speaker-1: Yeah, they go to the ninety minute meeting, decide whether it's for them. Each implementer will will let ⁓ know what the cost is at that stage because some implementers charge less, some implementers charge more. Yeah. ⁓ whatever it might be, and you can get a full picture of that and understand that. Yeah. But in terms of, you know, overall ⁓ cost, you know, it could range. So it's hard to put a figure on that. Yeah. ⁓ but as a minimum you could probably look at twenty five K as a minimum, you're probably looking at twenty five K yeah. Yeah. ⁓ but it could it could extend because of the
speaker-0: The the thing, yeah. So we're looking looking at businesses that's doing over mill revenue or so, yeah. Doing b steady steady business, right? Established business. Yeah. Right. Yeah, that's what's good for with a team.
speaker-1: Yeah. So what I would say to that is ⁓ if you don't know what your product is or what your market is, don't use EOS. Work out what your product and market is before you use EOS because EOS is all about execution. And if you don't know what you're executing on, then ⁓ you're you're burning cash. So work that out first and then and then think about, okay, well now we know our market. We've got a product, we're solving a problem. Okay, let's get some structure around this. Let's go. Okay. That's when I'd suggest you use it.
speaker-0: Mm. Got you. Okay, cool. That's just cool. I think the the market will be like anyone who's revving about a meal or more. Right. They they're doing a they're doing over a meal. They want to invest in proper coaching. Right. They want to invest in system implementation. And then it just kinda comes about checking fit. Do I like Mary Smith? Do I like another guy? And yeah, kinda kinda go from there. Exactly. That's ⁓ no, I think it's been a really wonderful chat. ⁓ and thanks again for ⁓ jumping on. Do we do we leave anything out? Do you feel like? Is anyone that you want to shout out? Any I mean we're gonna have your backlinks. Is there anything else that you wanna shout out? No.
speaker-1: No, well the only thing I'd say is it doesn't hurt to find out what you don't know. Yeah. And so, you know, if you have the opportunity to take a ninety minute meeting with an implementer, do it. There's no obligation but you'll probably find out some things about yourself and your business anyway. So even if you don't proceed if you'll get a you'll get a copy of traction out of it and someone will will have a look at your business and say ⁓ and show you what what might be possible in that ninety minutes and Yeah, a hundred percent. And so, you know, y you can either spend sixty hours a week crunching yeah you know, you and your life. Or you could take ninety minutes out of your day one day to find out what your business could look like. So just do that.
speaker-0: Amazing. Cool. And I'll make sure that your links are in the in the show notes. If people want to get hold of you, they can get hold of you on LinkedIn and on the yeah through the show notes. Great. No worries, right? All right. Thanks again. All right. Thanks guys for everyone for listening. Talk to you next next episode. Hey, what's up? Jeremy Yang, the online ads guy here, owner of Digital Glass Marketing. If you ⁓ found whatever you're watching helpful, you found it interesting, like, subscribe, comment.
speaker-1: Yeah. Thanks very much, Jeremy.
speaker-0: Suggest other topics you think we should cover here. We've aimed to release weekly episodes helping SMEs with marketing, advertising, talking to professionals about growth, processes, all that good stuff. Right, see you on the next one.
