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If you've ever worked with someone who creates chaos, plays the victim, and blames everyone else, then this podcast is for you.
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So here's your host, Adam Holbrook.
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Welcome to the Managing Difficult People Podcast.
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I am your host, Adam Holbrook.
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The reason I started the Managing Difficult People podcast, I was noticing that there's so much conflict and divide in this country.
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I was noticing that there's so many people throwing themselves under the bus and self-sabotaging themselves.
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And I'm noticing that the mental health crisis in this country is growing.
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And I said, maybe I can create a place, a safe place, where people can come and listen to my story, listen to my guests' stories, and maybe, just maybe, they can gain some awareness of what's holding them back in their own lives and how to move forward.
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My guest today is Michael Chris Mally.
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I met Michael about two months ago at a public speaking Toastmasters Club meeting, and he was a speaker.
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And I gotta tell you, he blew me away.
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He's a phenomenal speaker.
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And I found out he had just released his book, My Name Is.
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So I decided to purchase the book.
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And oh my.
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This book, you gotta get your hands on this book, is the most vulnerable book that I have ever read.
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No kidding.
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Michael has been a respected person of the community for many, many years.
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And then there was a major public fallout where Michael was the treasurer of his fire department, and he started stealing money from the fire department.
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Tens of thousands of dollars.
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And he writes about it in his book.
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Now, before you have a judgment here, listen to this.
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We all have skeletons in our closet.
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We all have things that we've buried deep, deep in the closet in a box that's sealed up.
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And then we just try to move through the motions of life.
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Or we come forward and we tell people about what happened.
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And then all of a sudden, we're trying to rebuild our character.
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Well, Michael turned himself into the authorities.
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He isn't denying that this happened.
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He isn't taking the wrap and saying that I'm a better person and this wasn't who I was.
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He's saying I publicly messed up for a very, very long time.
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And I'm gonna reclaim myself and rebuild my life.
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And that's what his book is about.
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It's about we are not the person that we were of the past, but we are who we are moving forward.
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Michael Chris Mally is an author, speaker, and mental health advocate whose work centers on identity, accountability, and redemption.
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Beyond his professional work, he's a proud father, son, brother, and friend who places deep value on family, connection, and the people who have stood beside him through every season of life.
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After a deeply public fallout forced him to confront the difference between reputation and character, Michael began rebuilding with greater honesty, vulnerability, and self-awareness.
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His book, My Name Is, reclaims that journey and introduces the Reclaim Framework, a practical path for moving beyond the shame and rebuilding a meaningful life.
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Today he uses the story to help others speak openly about their struggles, seek support, and understand that the past does not have to determine what happens next.
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Please welcome to the Managing Difficult People Podcast, Michael Chris Molley.
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Wow.
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Adam, what a what an intro.
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Thank you so much for having me.
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I've been looking forward to this, and I can't wait to dig in.
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Thank you so much.
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Michael, the audience is on the edge of their seats right now.
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They want to hear that story, how it started.
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You stole this money from the fire department.
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How did that take place?
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Why did it take place?
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Be vulnerable with us.
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Oh man, where to begin?
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So, first of all, the the thing to understand is that the person that I was at that time was definitely someone who I was respected in the community.
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I had a wife and a child, and basically I wanted to be someone that people could depend on.
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And that was very important to me.
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It's sort of like where I built my identity.
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What ended up happening in very plain terms was yes, I was sitting as the treasurer for my department.
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I had been the treasurer for many years, no incident whatsoever.
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And then, what's the term they say?
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Life got lifey.
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Because what ended up ultimately ended up happening was I started to have very significant personal issues.
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My world was quite literally crumbling around me.
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My marriage was falling apart.
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My daughter was dealing with some fairly significant issues, medical issues that were really weighing heavy on me.
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The other thing is I was working, as I always had, as a 100% commissioned employee doing in the financial arena, in the mortgage arena.
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And here's the thing you need to know for anyone that's working in that type of environment is you really have to stay laser focused on separating the personal from the business.
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Because when you're 100% commissioned, if you don't produce, you don't get paid.
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And I was dealing with such, you know, such trauma, if you will, that I started to that line became blurred and I was no longer successful as I had been before in terms of separating the two.
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And so ultimately, that's where the financial burden started to come in.
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Now I want to stress something as I tell this though.
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None of this excuses what I did, and I want to make sure that's really, really clear.
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In fact, the only reason that I ever started telling this part of the story about the troubles that I was going on was because when the story hit the news cycle, it reduced me to a headline and frankly made me sound like a monster.
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And eventually what I decided was that the fuller story needed to be told.
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And it wasn't to erase the accountability, but it was to provide a little context.
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And again, no excuse for what I did, but I think the point that I was trying to make to people was it didn't happen because I was buying vacations and diamond rings.
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It happened because in my mind I was trying to keep the walls from closing in.
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So the context didn't cancel the accountability, but accountability shouldn't require to erase someone's entire humanity, which is one of the reasons I started, you know, giving some of the context and some of the circumstances.
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I can relate to the straight commission positions.
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It's it is a lot on your mental health, the ups and the downs in life.
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And you're in a situation where your marriage is crumbling, you have a lot going on with your family.
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So now you're sitting there as the treasurer of the fire department.
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What was the first thing, the first step that you did?
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Because this isn't just come up one day and say, I'm gonna do this.
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How did that first time happen?
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Because I'm sure reading the book, I know it happened multiple times through.
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What was that first time like?
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Did you think that you were doing something wrong?
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Where were you at?
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Yeah, so obviously dealing, you know, dealing with a tremendous, tremendous amount of pressure.
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And it's one of those things, right?
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When you start having chaos with that sort of message with opportunity.
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And the story is really quite simple.
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And it's funny, and it's not funny, it's interesting that it almost really happened by accident.
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So let me set the scene for you.
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Normally, as the treasurer for the department, what I would do, I had an office there, and I would go and I would take care of fire company business, whether it's paying bills or preparing purchase orders, etc.
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The normal stuff that a treasurer would do.
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And on one particular night, sort of when I was in the throes of all this, you know, chaos, I was doing fire department business, and I had put that aside, and then I started to do some of my own personal business.
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And it's try to imagine, it's I so because I'm so sidetracked with everything that's going on, I wasn't fully present in the moment.
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And I went to go pay one of my bills, which by the way was no easy chore because, again, finances were tough.
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I went to go do it, and I started typing in the account number, and it was the account number for the fire department, which I had on like a separate sheet of paper.
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And I, again, not fully present in the moment, I was just kind of like on autopilot almost.
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Now, here's the thing in that moment, I caught it.
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I caught it, I didn't actually do it.
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I caught it.
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I was, oh my god, what am I doing?
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But here's the interesting thing about that.
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That sparked this idea in my mind.
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What if I hadn't caught it?
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Like, what if I had actually gone through with that?
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It clearly would have been a mistake.
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And so I started to then rationalize a little bit to myself.
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Like, well, that could have easily been explained, and then I just would have paid it back and it wouldn't have been an issue.
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So you could see where that little sort of a twinge of an idea, you know, started to fester into something more sinister, but not sinister in a way where I was trying to get one over on people because I just thought to myself, well, that could have been very easily, you know, easily explained away.
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And that's kind of where the idea came from, and it started to weigh on me a little bit, and it wasn't long after, probably only a couple of days, where I sort of rationalized to myself, well, let me just bridge the gap a little bit.
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You know what I mean?
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I'll just pay a couple of these bills.
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And here's the crazy thing, Adam.
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This is the thing that I think people I've explained this to a couple people before, and I think people are a little like not sure how to process this.
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Do you know the amount of relief that I felt when I originally did it?
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Wow.
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Yeah, think about it.
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I mean, I had done it, I knew, understand this, I'm a smart individual.
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I fully understood that there was something wrong with it, but I had I was in such a state of mind where almost being smart about it made me rationalize it even easier.
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And so what ended up happening was the first couple of times or the first couple of you know bills that I paid, and that's what I was doing.
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I was trying to keep the lights on and stuff like that, which by the way, a lot of people go through that and don't do what I did.
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So no excuse.
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It's just what happened.
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But in the aftermath, the immediate aftermath, the overwhelming experience that I felt was one of relief.
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I finally felt like this, I could exhale a little bit.
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And isn't it ironic?
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That's the same feeling that I would have many years later when I would eventually tell the story and start to, you know, tell people what I had done.
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That same sense of relief, but obviously for a different reason.
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So that was the thing.
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And then once you feel like, wow, okay, this is good, and I can like breathe a little bit, that part almost became intoxicating, and that line that I would never cross, I started to move that line.
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And, you know, ultimately, each time became a little bit easier because the feeling was one of some relief amidst all of the chaos and the hurt that I was feeling because of what was going on.
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And this was taking place over the course of years, correct?
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So, yes, it the approximate time it was just about a two-year period of time.
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And it was like periodically, it would be like, okay, we'll pay because initially the idea or the thought process was we'll just do this once or twice and then we'll pay it back, and then Right.
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You thought you were bought you almost like borrowing the money.
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Right, exactly.
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And that's kind of how I rationalized to myself, and then it just became easier and easier to do, and it just became almost a habit.
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And so, yeah, this took place over the course of about, say, a two-year period of time, and then you snap back into reality and you're like, Whoa, okay, you know, now we see what this added up to.
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And the other thing I always told myself was, I'll pay it back.
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And the ironic thing is I did start doing that.
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I did, because after that period of time, that's exactly what I did.
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I started putting the money back, and that that made me keep the secret even further.
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But Michael, you could have kept doing this for for years and years and years, and maybe not even be on this podcast today.
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What changed?
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Yeah, that's a great question, and I have been asked this before.
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Here's the best way for me to describe it.
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At a certain point, the hiding was no longer protecting me, right?
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It was really destroying me.
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Every day that I kept the truth buried, I had to live with the fear that it might eventually come out.
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Now it might not have, but I had to live with that fear and also the knowledge that I was continuing to betray the people who trusted me.
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Understand this.
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The members of my fire department, they were my family.
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I absolutely loved them.
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And even though my initial thought process was that nothing was hurting them directly, when I started to get a little more clarity in my life, I realized I was betraying these people and they trusted me.
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And so, you know, that feeling of basically bringing it out, and I had to do it, and I was terrified to do it, but honestly, I just reached a point where I was no longer willing to keep living in conflict with my own values.
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You know, uh, I don't know, I wouldn't necessarily call it strength because I knew there'd be consequences and I was afraid of them.
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But I had this realization that I could never truly move forward if I was still protecting this lie, even though it had stopped and even though I was paying the money back.
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And I knew that telling the truth might cost me everything.
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But continuing to hide was already costing me who I was.
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And you have a family, you have all of every all these pieces to come together.
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Yes.
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When you finally turned yourself in, and the only reason I know this is because I read the book, but I want the audience to know this, you met with the the chief.
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Am I correct?
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Correct.
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Can you talk talk to us about that day?
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Whoo, yeah.
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So January 1st, 2022.
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January.
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It's funny because throughout the course of my throughout the course of my journey, there's certain dates that I can like cite.
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January 1st, 2022, which is obviously New Year's Day, a decision was made.
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Because I had reached the point where carrying the secret was completely unbearable for me.
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I was really exhausted.
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I was managing two realities, right?
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I was managing the person that everyone believed me to be, and then the truth I was hiding.
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So, again, New Year's is kind of an interesting, right?
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You think about what's been passed, you think about moving forward.
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So I finally understood that there was no way to meaningfully move forward in my life while continuing to protect what I had done.
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So what I did to answer your question, this was about a week later, I believe it was January 7th.
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What I did was, over the course of that time, from the first to the seventh, I sat down and I wrote a four-page letter.
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And the four-page letter wasn't to send to him, it was to read to him.
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And the reason that I did it that way was because I was so emotional about this.
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I mean, I'm a writer, I'm a speaker, and I can do that, but I was so emotional here that I needed to make sure that I didn't forget anything.
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Yes.
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So for a period of about a week, I sat down and I wrote one of the most painful letters I've ever written in my life, and it was all in preparation to sit with him.
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He was going to be the first person that I spoke with to tell him.
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And I was scared.
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But there was a again, there was this sort of strange sense of clarity.
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And for the first time in a long time, I was no longer trying to escape what I had done, but now I had, you know, this task.
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So I got to the firehouse.
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I had asked him to meet me there.
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He had no clue why.
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And then he he gets there and we go into his office.
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And he and I had always had a fabulous relationship, so he was more than willing to sit with me.
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Sat down and I said, Listen, I need to talk to you about something.
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And then I pulled out the letter and I read it, word for word, from the first to the last.
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And you said in the book that he didn't react the way that you thought he was gonna react.
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You know it's funny, Adam.
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And I think anyone listening can relate to this.
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I think we all come up with conclusions as to what we think is going to happen.
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I could have given you a hundred different scenarios, and I definitely wouldn't have come up with what actually happened.
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And here's what it was.
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I read the letter, and there was a range of emotions that came from him, but he didn't in the immediacy say anything.
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But I could see his eyes welling up, right?
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And then he shocked me.
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Because you know, he stood up, he walked over to me, and he gave me a hug.
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Are you kidding me?
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Wow.
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Are you kidding me?
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Wow.
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Didn't see that coming.
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Wow.
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Did not see that coming.
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And here's what it ultimately came down to after a little bit of conversation.
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He was obviously upset.
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He was, in his own right, he was scared because what did this mean for the department, the whole thing?
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But he ultimately understood that I had family, and he understood what it took for me to come and tell him this.
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He understood that you know there might be consequences, and he understood the situation that I had been in, which caused me to do it in the first place, and he felt all of those emotions at the same time and expressed them to me.
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And in a weird way, and I think I say this in the book, in a weird way, that actually made the whole thing even more difficult.
00:18:07.279 --> 00:18:10.960
I almost wanted him to just be pissed off to say that.
00:18:11.200 --> 00:18:17.920
You know, but the fact that he showed the caring and everything, and at the same time I saw the hurt, man, that was tough.
00:18:18.079 --> 00:18:20.559
It was tough, but what a day that was.
00:18:20.720 --> 00:18:21.839
I'll never ever forget it.
00:18:22.079 --> 00:18:24.559
Alright, so now you tell the chief.
00:18:25.119 --> 00:18:27.440
He was the first one you told before your family.
00:18:27.599 --> 00:18:33.200
You talked about your daughter and how you talked to about her about this, and I want the audience to hear that.
00:18:33.359 --> 00:18:35.759
So explain that timeline to us.
00:18:36.000 --> 00:18:38.160
Yeah, okay, so I'll lay it out for you.
00:18:38.400 --> 00:18:41.200
First conversation took place with the chief, as I mentioned.
00:18:41.359 --> 00:18:48.960
About a week later, and for anyone that's ever been part of a fire department, there's usually an executive board, which is the people that run the business side of the house.
00:18:49.119 --> 00:18:51.920
And that's what I was, I was part of that as the treasurer.
00:18:52.079 --> 00:19:01.200
After sitting with the chief and only him, then the plan was we he put together an executive board meeting, like an emergency one, for a couple days later.
00:19:01.519 --> 00:19:03.759
Might have been like five or six days later.
00:19:03.920 --> 00:19:11.920
In which case, and this is crazy, then I had to go back to the firehouse and I sat with all the people that I served with on the executive board and told them the story.
00:19:12.720 --> 00:19:13.519
Good lord.
00:19:13.759 --> 00:19:14.400
Good lord.
00:19:14.640 --> 00:19:15.359
So there was that.
00:19:15.519 --> 00:19:18.160
Now, here's where we get to the family.
00:19:18.400 --> 00:19:26.000
In the immediacy after telling the fire department, and then I went and spoke to the police and you know, talked to them about it.
00:19:26.160 --> 00:19:28.799
It took about a month for the story to hit the news cycle.
00:19:28.880 --> 00:19:35.359
Now, in that time, I still hadn't said anything to my family, and part of that came from fear.
00:19:35.519 --> 00:19:40.480
Part of it came from the fact that I didn't know how they were going to accept or receive the news.
00:19:40.640 --> 00:19:46.880
And because it wasn't out there publicly at this point, I kind of kicked the can down the road a little bit.
00:19:47.440 --> 00:19:56.880
A whole month from the time you told the police chief before you heard a phone call or anything back, and you're like wondering when is this gonna hit.
00:19:57.039 --> 00:20:01.039
I think that the stress of that month would have probably given me a heart attack.
00:20:01.279 --> 00:20:01.920
I got news for you.
00:20:02.000 --> 00:20:06.319
It was actually two months because what happened was I spoke to the chief on January 7th.
00:20:06.480 --> 00:20:11.519
I didn't actually speak to the police and get officially charged until February 7th.
00:20:11.680 --> 00:20:19.680
So that was a month, and then it was a month after that, ironically enough, on my birthday, March 9th, when the news story hit the, when it hit the news cycle.
00:20:19.839 --> 00:20:32.160
Now, the day that it hit the news cycle, the day that day, I contacted my first there was I had I contacted my family and I said, listen, and they're in different parts.
00:20:32.400 --> 00:20:35.519
We couldn't actually physically get together, so we did a FaceTime call.
00:20:35.680 --> 00:20:38.480
And I sat with them and I said, and I told them what happened.
00:20:38.640 --> 00:20:39.519
So there was that.
00:20:39.680 --> 00:20:44.160
But the hardest conversation of this whole thing was my children.
00:20:44.319 --> 00:20:44.559
Yeah.
00:20:44.960 --> 00:20:45.440
My children.
00:20:45.680 --> 00:20:46.480
Understand this.
00:20:46.640 --> 00:20:49.599
And that, and by the way, that happened, that also happened the same day.
00:20:49.680 --> 00:20:56.880
Once the news cycle hit, I felt it imperative to make sure that I was the one that broke the news before they did, before they heard it.
00:20:57.279 --> 00:20:58.960
How old are your kids at this time?
00:20:59.279 --> 00:21:04.000
At this time, so this was uh, so let's see, there right now they're 20 and 14.
00:21:04.240 --> 00:21:12.960
So this was, my goodness, 26, this was 22, so 15 and 9, roughly.
00:21:13.440 --> 00:21:18.400
They're right in the school, and it's gonna come out and they're gonna need to know how to handle themselves.
00:21:18.799 --> 00:21:31.279
That in the immediacy, that's where my mind went because remember, we were a very respected family in the community, you know, firefighter dad, kids coming up in the school system, great kids, by the way, like really lovable, likable kids.
00:21:31.440 --> 00:21:41.759
And so there was that fear that as things started to spread like wildfire, as it typically does, there was the fear that they would, you know, hear things, and it wasn't really my intent to keep it from them.
00:21:41.839 --> 00:21:46.400
I just I kind of was biding my time a little bit, and this forced my hand.
00:21:46.640 --> 00:21:53.039
So I had spent my children's entire lives trying to be an example for them, as all parents can understand.
00:21:53.200 --> 00:21:59.599
And I had taught them to tell the truth, right, to own their mistakes and accept the consequences of.
00:22:00.240 --> 00:22:01.279
Their choices.
00:22:01.599 --> 00:22:12.240
And then I had to sit down in front of them and explain to them that their father had made a serious mistake and that our lives were about to change because of it.
00:22:12.640 --> 00:22:17.200
I didn't know if I was going to be able to get through the conversation, and it was a hard one.
00:22:17.440 --> 00:22:27.680
And I remember looking at them as they sat on the couch in my apartment, and I realized, before I ever said a word, that there was going to be a before and an after.
00:22:27.839 --> 00:22:34.240
There was going to be before they knew about this, and there was going to be after I what I was about to tell them.
00:22:34.319 --> 00:22:36.000
And that devastated me.
00:22:36.319 --> 00:22:44.640
Because part of me believed that the version of their father that they had always looked up to was about to disappear.
00:22:46.160 --> 00:22:47.519
And what's that going to do to your relationship?
00:22:47.599 --> 00:22:52.559
What you talked about before and after, before the relationship and after the fallout.
00:22:52.799 --> 00:22:52.880
Yeah.
00:22:53.759 --> 00:22:55.759
I really genuinely worried about it.
00:22:55.920 --> 00:22:57.440
And you know what they did?
00:22:57.680 --> 00:23:05.440
As kids often do, they man, they surprised me because they responded with more grace and more maturity than I frankly deserved in that moment.
00:23:05.680 --> 00:23:06.000
Wow.
00:23:06.240 --> 00:23:06.799
And you know what?
00:23:06.880 --> 00:23:08.640
That didn't really make the conversation easier.
00:23:08.720 --> 00:23:13.680
Just like I had mentioned with the chief, I almost wanted people to like beat me up because I felt like I deserved it.
00:23:13.839 --> 00:23:14.079
Yeah.
00:23:14.240 --> 00:23:22.640
But I wasn't only telling them what I had done, I was watching the image that they had of me change in real time, and yet they still treated me with that grace.
00:23:22.799 --> 00:23:26.880
So, yeah, the hardest part for me wasn't admitting the failure.
00:23:27.039 --> 00:23:31.920
I was really just wondering in the moment, would my children still believe that I was someone worth looking up to?
00:23:32.000 --> 00:23:37.920
And that's a hard thing to So now the time passes and the the police come to your house and arrest you?
00:23:38.079 --> 00:23:39.039
Is that how it worked?
00:23:39.359 --> 00:23:40.880
No, I went to the police station.
00:23:41.039 --> 00:23:45.119
Actually, yeah, I went to there and I and I sat down with sat down with someone.
00:23:45.200 --> 00:23:50.880
And here's the interesting thing, and it's funny, I've caught some flack for this, or I did in the immediacy, like we're past all this now.
00:23:50.960 --> 00:23:56.880
But I went and sat with them, and of course, they did the thing where they were like, well, you know, you have the right to an attorney, etc.
00:23:57.119 --> 00:23:57.359
etc.
00:23:57.680 --> 00:23:57.839
Yes.
00:23:58.079 --> 00:24:02.799
And at this point in my mind said, I was like, no, I don't want an attorney.
00:24:02.880 --> 00:24:06.240
Because I'm thinking an attorney's gonna tell me not to say anything.
00:24:06.480 --> 00:24:10.400
And I was in the mood now where it was like, I no, I want to let me tell you everything.
00:24:10.640 --> 00:24:14.880
I need to free my I need to free myself, even though this isn't the in the best interest.
00:24:15.119 --> 00:24:15.680
Yes.
00:24:15.920 --> 00:24:17.119
I need to free myself.
00:24:17.200 --> 00:24:30.720
I need to put it all out there because I can't live with myself by telling bits and pieces or having my attorney, you know, take what I'm saying and give it in this lawyer language, which is gonna help me get off the hook, right?
00:24:30.880 --> 00:24:32.720
You're just like, I need to throw this out there.
00:24:32.799 --> 00:24:35.759
I need to be completely clean so I can repair my life.
00:24:36.000 --> 00:24:38.319
And in a weird way, that's all 100% true.
00:24:38.400 --> 00:24:45.039
And the other thing, in a weird way, and remember, think of the things I told you about the reactions that people had and how that made it harder.
00:24:45.200 --> 00:24:47.119
I wanted the pain, Adam.
00:24:47.279 --> 00:24:52.000
I wanted to, I was so angry with myself that I was like, you know what?
00:24:52.079 --> 00:24:55.759
I'm not having an attorney because whatever the consequences are, I earned them.
00:24:55.920 --> 00:24:57.119
So give, bring it on.
00:24:57.200 --> 00:25:00.720
I'm gonna tell the story, I'm gonna get it out there because I'm tired of hiding.
00:25:00.960 --> 00:25:02.640
And that's what was my mindset.
00:25:02.720 --> 00:25:06.079
So I sat there for an hour and a half and told him everything.
00:25:06.160 --> 00:25:11.920
And then what happened was the officer, he was very kind, and he was like, look, he's like, I give you a lot of credit.
00:25:12.000 --> 00:25:14.240
I give you a lot of credit for sitting here telling the story.
00:25:14.400 --> 00:25:15.920
They don't see that that often.
00:25:16.160 --> 00:25:21.200
He steps out of the room and he goes and he calls the district attorney, right?
00:25:21.359 --> 00:25:22.400
The prosecutor.
00:25:22.640 --> 00:25:30.559
And I couldn't hear the conversation, but I was sitting there alone with myself at this moment, just like spent because of what it what was going on.
00:25:30.720 --> 00:25:33.920
Like, I my life was just like, what was this gonna be?
00:25:34.079 --> 00:25:37.359
He comes back in and he says, um, listen, he says, it should come as no surprise.
00:25:37.519 --> 00:25:38.960
They're going to file charges.
00:25:39.119 --> 00:25:42.480
And I was actually charged with three felonies on the same case.
00:25:42.720 --> 00:25:44.880
And then what happened was this is remarkable.
00:25:45.119 --> 00:25:51.200
He they process me, you know, which is they go in, they do the fingerprints, the whole thing, they take pictures of the tattoos and everything.
00:25:51.440 --> 00:25:52.960
And then they let me go.
00:25:53.119 --> 00:25:54.160
And I didn't expect that.
00:25:54.240 --> 00:25:56.880
I kind of expected I was gonna get thrown in jail, to be honest.
00:25:57.039 --> 00:25:57.920
But he let me go.
00:25:58.000 --> 00:26:03.119
He knew that I had to go pick my son up from soccer, and he was like, look, he goes, no one thinks you're a threat here.
00:26:03.279 --> 00:26:05.440
They said you're gonna have to appear, of course.
00:26:05.599 --> 00:26:06.559
But he let me go.
00:26:06.720 --> 00:26:08.480
And uh so that's how it happened.
00:26:08.960 --> 00:26:18.240
Because the the book doesn't talk about the end, and I'm starting to get the clarity on that because I was like, all right, maybe there's a a part two that's gonna be coming out because uh you left me hanging.
00:26:18.319 --> 00:26:20.720
I'm like, well, what where where were you going?
00:26:20.799 --> 00:26:28.240
What did he have to serve time in jail, or is it just you know that that he's still going through the case and I wasn't sure.
00:26:28.559 --> 00:26:29.920
So yeah, let me clarify that.
00:26:30.079 --> 00:26:32.319
So I did not go to prison for this.
00:26:32.559 --> 00:26:36.880
As I mentioned uh a moment ago, I was charged with three felonies initially.
00:26:37.039 --> 00:26:43.119
And at one point, when you add up the you know, the potential punishment for those three, it added up to about ten years.
00:26:43.279 --> 00:26:46.079
Ten years in prison is really what I was facing.
00:26:46.400 --> 00:26:56.880
Hard thing, by the way, for someone who had never been through anything like this before, hard thing for someone to tell you in a very matter-of-fact way, yeah, the possibility of getting 10 years in prison for this.
00:26:57.119 --> 00:27:00.799
I mean, that it was like, you know, okay, wow, am I really?
00:27:00.960 --> 00:27:02.319
You know, you just don't fathom it.
00:27:02.480 --> 00:27:29.759
But because I had no prior criminal history, because I came forward on my own, because I cooperated, and because, of course, I accepted full responsibility, what ended up happening was, and I'm very grateful by the way, I'm grateful to my attorney, I'm grateful to the prosecutor, I'm grateful to the judge because they saw that I was remorseful, and you know, and they took all those things into consideration, and I ended up getting convicted of one felony, I pled on one.
00:27:29.920 --> 00:27:36.559
So I have that, and I was sentenced to supervised probation, which is ongoing, and that's currently the process that I'm in.
00:27:36.720 --> 00:27:39.359
Now I want to say this though, because we're talking about punishment.
00:27:39.519 --> 00:27:42.000
I want to make sure this is really clear for anyone listening.
00:27:42.160 --> 00:27:45.119
This does not mean that the consequences weren't significant.
00:27:45.440 --> 00:27:50.960
Because let me tell you, you know, probation is not that bad, but it is still an obligation that I earned.
00:27:51.119 --> 00:27:54.720
But also, think about this outside the legal realm.
00:27:54.960 --> 00:27:56.480
I lost relationships.
00:27:56.640 --> 00:28:05.920
There are still people to this day, even with all the work that I'm doing now, who have never spoken to me again after reading the story that was put in the out in the public.
00:28:06.400 --> 00:28:08.960
My fire department, completely gone.
00:28:09.039 --> 00:28:10.319
I you know, lost that.
00:28:10.480 --> 00:28:12.319
Parts of my reputation, of course.
00:28:12.559 --> 00:28:17.920
And for a long time, and this is really where the basis of the book, for a long time, my sense of identity.
00:28:18.160 --> 00:28:18.720
You know what I mean?
00:28:19.200 --> 00:28:22.559
Michael, I I have I have to stop you there because here's what I'm noticing.
00:28:22.720 --> 00:28:24.640
So I first of all, I'm so proud of you.
00:28:24.799 --> 00:28:27.759
I think for being able to, I'm proud to know you.
00:28:27.920 --> 00:28:39.519
I I think this story coming forward is like I said earlier, vulnerable, and I think it really is going to help a lot of other people who are struggling in that fight in life.
00:28:39.759 --> 00:28:44.160
I believe, and I could be wrong, that I saw a cross around your neck.
00:28:44.240 --> 00:28:45.680
And I didn't know that a cross?
00:28:46.000 --> 00:28:46.319
It is.
00:28:46.559 --> 00:28:47.039
It is a cross.
00:28:47.200 --> 00:28:47.519
Okay.
00:28:47.599 --> 00:28:48.880
So I would love to know.
00:28:48.960 --> 00:28:52.079
I I mean, God, God, Jesus forgives, right?
00:28:52.240 --> 00:29:00.720
And but I would love to know, and I think the listeners would want to know too, is who is God during this struggle, and who is God now?
00:29:01.839 --> 00:29:03.599
Yeah, this is a great question.
00:29:03.680 --> 00:29:05.759
And I am a very spiritual person.
00:29:05.839 --> 00:29:07.440
I kind of always have been.
00:29:07.680 --> 00:29:08.400
I'll say this.
00:29:08.559 --> 00:29:23.119
So before everything happened, I think my relationship with God was often connected to, you know, asking for help, protection, maybe a way out of difficult circumstances, and I think that's the case for a lot of people.
00:29:23.440 --> 00:29:29.839
But afterward, that relationship became a lot more honest, I think I would say.
00:29:30.000 --> 00:29:43.200
Because I stopped approaching faith as a way to avoid consequences, and I began to understand it as a place where I could kind of face the truth about myself without believing that I was beyond grace.
00:29:43.359 --> 00:29:48.880
Because there was a lot of self-judgment during this time, and so my faith became very important.
00:29:49.039 --> 00:29:57.359
There were moments, honestly, if I'm being honest, which I always am, when I questioned my why God would allow my life to fall apart.
00:29:57.839 --> 00:30:04.319
But but over time I started to ask a different question, and that's well, what am I supposed to learn from this?
00:30:04.559 --> 00:30:05.279
What is the lesson?
00:30:05.440 --> 00:30:06.880
Yeah, what am I supposed to learn?
00:30:07.039 --> 00:30:08.480
What am I supposed to change?
00:30:08.640 --> 00:30:09.680
What do I do with whatever?
00:30:10.240 --> 00:30:11.519
How can I serve more?
00:30:11.759 --> 00:30:12.400
Exactly.
00:30:12.640 --> 00:30:17.920
My faith really also taught me that grace and accountability are not opposites.
00:30:18.160 --> 00:30:18.400
Right?
00:30:18.559 --> 00:30:30.000
Grace doesn't pretend that the mistake didn't happen, and it doesn't remove the responsibility to make things right, but it reminds you that failure doesn't have to be the end of your usefulness or your purpose.
00:30:30.240 --> 00:30:34.720
So, yeah, the experience, it did have an impact on my relationship with God.
00:30:35.039 --> 00:30:37.519
But it just made me talk to him in a different way.
00:30:37.759 --> 00:30:42.000
Alright, so now your life, so alright, so thank you for giving that clarity.
00:30:42.240 --> 00:30:43.920
So now let's go back.
00:30:44.160 --> 00:30:50.319
Your life is spiraling, like it seems like the legal ramifications are done, people are distancing themselves to you.
00:30:50.720 --> 00:31:01.119
I know that in the book says that your girlfriend drew you guys closer together, and she stood by your side, and there were some people that stood by your side, but people that you thought that were gonna stand by your side, they kind of vanished.
00:31:01.279 --> 00:31:02.880
And understandably, right?
00:31:02.960 --> 00:31:04.480
And we're not gonna deny that.
00:31:04.799 --> 00:31:12.720
But when that is all happening, at what point do you realize your life isn't over and you can rebuild?
00:31:13.119 --> 00:31:16.960
Yeah, so I think let's see.
00:31:17.200 --> 00:31:22.000
I don't think that there was one single day, of course, when suddenly everything changed.
00:31:22.079 --> 00:31:25.279
It was more of a this was a gradual process for me.
00:31:25.440 --> 00:31:30.000
This gradual realization, you know, I I knew that my life hadn't ended.
00:31:30.160 --> 00:31:34.640
And when I go through the reclaim, you know, framework in the book, I talk about this.
00:31:34.720 --> 00:31:36.480
Like the R is recognize, right?
00:31:36.640 --> 00:31:38.559
Recognize that you're still here.
00:31:38.799 --> 00:31:40.240
You know, so that was big for me.
00:31:40.319 --> 00:31:47.599
And at first, I think I was focused, and I think this is reasonable, I think I was focused almost entirely on what I had lost.
00:31:47.839 --> 00:31:54.559
My reputation, the fire department, the relationships, and obviously the version of myself that I had spent years, you know, building.
00:31:54.799 --> 00:32:01.680
But what happened was over time, again, I began to notice that I'm still here, that I'm still a father.
00:32:01.839 --> 00:32:05.440
And because of those people who stood by me, I'm still loved.
00:32:05.759 --> 00:32:10.000
And I'm still capable of making choices that actually mattered.
00:32:10.240 --> 00:32:16.559
You know, the past definitely changed my life, but it didn't remove my ability to shape what comes next.
00:32:16.799 --> 00:32:25.279
So I think the real turning point for me came when I stopped asking whether I could get my old life back because there was a lot of that in the early going.
00:32:25.599 --> 00:32:30.720
And I started to ask, what kind of life could I build from where I was now?
00:32:30.960 --> 00:32:46.720
And so that that shift is really what eventually led to the book, the type of speaking that I do now, and the purpose that I now find in helping others who feel defined by their worst moment realize that they can have a purpose.
00:32:47.039 --> 00:33:00.079
So you wrote this book for people that maybe hiding something in the closet, or maybe came forward and their life is spiraling because of that decision, and saying that you can rebuild your life.
00:33:00.400 --> 00:33:06.319
I'd like to take a moment and talk about this, who I wrote the book for, absolutely, because I've thought a lot about this.
00:33:06.480 --> 00:33:11.359
And yes, I definitely wrote it for anyone who's ever felt defined by the worst thing they've done.
00:33:11.519 --> 00:33:14.400
I mean, that's that's the the one sort of sentence I would say.
00:33:14.720 --> 00:33:16.400
But it's not it.
00:33:16.640 --> 00:33:19.839
Because it's for the person who carries shame quietly.
00:33:20.079 --> 00:33:25.839
I often talk about in the early going before everything became public, or actually right after everything became public.
00:33:26.000 --> 00:33:30.079
I the reason it's called my names is because for a long time I wouldn't tell anyone my name.
00:33:30.240 --> 00:33:34.319
Because I was afraid that they would Google my name and the first thing they'd see is the news story.
00:33:34.480 --> 00:33:40.319
That is a horrendously a horrendous way to live, and I was effectively living anonymously.
00:33:40.480 --> 00:33:42.000
And I'm the person who was like the mayor.
00:33:42.160 --> 00:33:46.160
I'd walk into crowds, I'd walk out with 15 new friends because I get along with everyone.
00:33:46.640 --> 00:33:48.400
So I was a shell of myself.
00:33:48.720 --> 00:33:57.519
So this book is for the person carrying that shame quietly, and the ones who believe that they disqualified themselves from a meaningful future.
00:33:57.759 --> 00:34:08.960
It's for the person who may have made a serious mistake, who faces consequences, and here's the big one, who does not know how to separate accountability from self-destruction.
00:34:09.599 --> 00:34:11.199
That was a huge lesson for me.
00:34:11.840 --> 00:34:18.960
I wrote it for people who maybe they didn't experience a public fall, but maybe they understand what it feels like to not know who they are.
00:34:19.119 --> 00:34:21.119
Because shame comes from a lot of places.
00:34:21.360 --> 00:34:32.719
It can come from addiction, failure, broken relationships, poor decisions, of course, or how about just not feeling like you don't know who you are anymore because this world is insane.
00:34:33.360 --> 00:34:41.679
So ultimately, I wrote the book for the person who needs to hear that owning your past doesn't require surrendering the future.
00:34:42.159 --> 00:34:51.039
Michael, I gotta ask you, if someone's hiding a secret, it could be a severe secret, it's been in there for years, and it's eating them alive.
00:34:51.360 --> 00:34:53.280
What advice would you have for them?
00:34:54.800 --> 00:35:03.039
Again, from experience, I would tell them that the secret is already costing them something, even if no one else knows about it yet.
00:35:03.519 --> 00:35:04.719
It's not gonna go away.
00:35:04.960 --> 00:35:12.639
No, it's costing them peace, it's costing them honesty and connection, and it's really costing them the ability to be fully present in their own life.
00:35:12.719 --> 00:35:16.079
And those things are beautiful, and I am living proof of this.
00:35:16.320 --> 00:35:31.280
Now, I think it's important to say though, as I say that, because I do want to be responsible with any advice that I'm giving to someone, that does not mean that they should necessarily reveal everything recklessly or without considering the consequences first.
00:35:31.840 --> 00:35:35.519
But it does mean that they really need to stop carrying it alone.
00:35:35.760 --> 00:35:46.159
So I might say, hey, speak with someone, speak with a trusted person, a counselor, maybe a faith leader, or someone who's equipped to help them face it safely and responsibly.
00:35:46.320 --> 00:35:50.639
I actually have a whole group of people, I do a lot of promotion and stuff on TikTok.
00:35:50.800 --> 00:35:58.559
I have people who reach out to me on a regular basis for this type of thing, where they want to tell their stories because they know that I understand.
00:35:58.719 --> 00:35:59.840
So it could be anyone.
00:36:00.000 --> 00:36:00.400
I love this.
00:36:00.639 --> 00:36:00.960
You know?
00:36:01.199 --> 00:36:10.400
So the bottom line is you don't have to necessarily can you know confess everything to everyone, but you have to stop protecting the secret more than you're protecting your life.
00:36:10.639 --> 00:36:15.199
And Michael, if you could go back that day, that first day, right?
00:36:15.280 --> 00:36:20.800
You wrote that check, you ripped it up, and a few days went back and you said, you know what, I could do this.
00:36:20.960 --> 00:36:22.239
And you wrote that first check.
00:36:22.400 --> 00:36:24.239
What would you say to that person?
00:36:26.719 --> 00:36:32.000
Well, okay, so I would tell him to stop, but not in the way you might think.
00:36:32.159 --> 00:36:37.199
I would tell him to stop and tell the truth about how overwhelmed he really was.
00:36:37.280 --> 00:36:47.360
If I'm this is me talking to myself, I'd remind him that asking for help might feel humiliating in the moment, but it'll it will never cost as much as pretending you can carry everything alone.
00:36:47.599 --> 00:36:57.840
And it's funny, I the I got a lot of interesting comments about the following because I'm gonna make a statement that might seem controversial, but hear it out for what it is.
00:36:58.159 --> 00:37:03.280
As strange as this may sound, I don't think that I would erase this entire journey.
00:37:03.440 --> 00:37:06.000
Meaning, I don't know that I would go back and change what happened.
00:37:06.159 --> 00:37:06.960
I'll tell you why.
00:37:07.199 --> 00:37:11.360
First of all, I would absolutely make a different decision, right, if I had that same decision to make.
00:37:11.440 --> 00:37:12.880
That's no question.
00:37:13.199 --> 00:37:25.519
But I know that going through everything that followed what happened, it forced me to become more honest, vulnerable, self-aware, and intentional than I have ever been before.
00:37:25.760 --> 00:37:31.679
And it didn't make that doesn't make the decision right, and obviously doesn't change the hurt that came with it, because there was a lot.
00:37:31.920 --> 00:37:36.159
It just means that I have chosen now to not waste what the experience taught me.
00:37:36.320 --> 00:37:40.800
So I can't change the road, but I can decide what kind of man I am moving forward on it.
00:37:40.960 --> 00:37:44.639
And that's why I'm in many ways, I'm the best version of myself that I've ever been.
00:37:45.599 --> 00:37:49.679
I'm so proud of you, and I'm grateful to call you my friend.
00:37:49.760 --> 00:37:50.400
I really am.
00:37:50.559 --> 00:37:53.599
I think that you are gonna change a lot of lives.
00:37:53.760 --> 00:37:54.719
I really do.
00:37:55.199 --> 00:38:00.000
And I'm grateful that you came onto the podcast to share your story today.
00:38:00.719 --> 00:38:02.719
The book is called My Name Is.
00:38:02.880 --> 00:38:04.639
It's Michael Chris Molley.
00:38:04.960 --> 00:38:13.440
The Chris Malley is spelled in, and there's a V in there, Michael V Chris Malley, and it's C-R-I-S-M-A-L-I.
00:38:13.920 --> 00:38:15.440
And the book is My Name Is.
00:38:15.599 --> 00:38:17.360
They can get it on Amazon.
00:38:17.679 --> 00:38:26.719
If our audience wants to hear more about you, what your speaking is, how to get in contact with you, how can they do that?
00:38:27.039 --> 00:38:28.480
Yeah, a couple different ways.
00:38:28.639 --> 00:38:31.679
First of all, I am on Facebook, so social media is a great way.
00:38:31.760 --> 00:38:34.719
I am on Facebook, and it's just my name, Michael V.
00:38:34.800 --> 00:38:35.519
Krismali.
00:38:35.840 --> 00:38:38.320
As I mentioned before, I'm on TikTok as well.
00:38:38.639 --> 00:38:39.679
You'd be able to find me there.
00:38:39.760 --> 00:38:42.880
I have my handle on TikTok, ironically, is Fire Guy.
00:38:43.039 --> 00:38:47.280
But I've developed a really nice following there, and I have a lot of people that I communicate on.
00:38:47.360 --> 00:38:53.440
I do a lot of videos that are like, you know, minute, minute and a half, motivational type things that sort of coincide with my journey.
00:38:53.679 --> 00:38:54.719
Also on LinkedIn.
00:38:54.960 --> 00:38:56.239
So social media is a great place.
00:38:56.400 --> 00:39:02.800
Also, my website, Legacy Word Services, three words all together, legacyword services.com.
00:39:02.960 --> 00:39:05.039
All my contact information is there as well.
00:39:05.199 --> 00:39:12.559
And I would urge anyone who might be hearing this that if you don't know who to go to, I want to stress, you can come to me.
00:39:12.719 --> 00:39:16.800
You can come to me because if I can't help you directly, I might be able to put you in touch with someone who can.
00:39:16.880 --> 00:39:21.039
But his number is 8675309.
00:39:21.199 --> 00:39:21.920
No, actually.
00:39:23.519 --> 00:39:24.159
There you go.
00:39:24.320 --> 00:39:29.599
I mean, listen, at the end of the day, the underlying message here is whatever ails you, don't go at it alone.
00:39:29.840 --> 00:39:34.800
I've learned to lean on my my circle has shrunk because there's been people who have walked away, and that's okay.
00:39:34.880 --> 00:39:36.239
I had to get comfortable with that.
00:39:36.400 --> 00:39:38.960
But the people who remain, they're my rock.
00:39:39.039 --> 00:39:41.519
They're the people that I lean on when I'm having a bad day.
00:39:41.599 --> 00:39:46.079
And so just know you can reach out to me, you can reach out, like leave reach out to someone.
00:39:46.159 --> 00:39:49.840
Don't do it alone because a better life is out there waiting for you, 100%.
00:39:50.320 --> 00:40:00.719
So you can write Michael a message on social media, you can go to his website, you can actually get to contact him and you can start that conversation if you need to reach him.
00:40:01.039 --> 00:40:01.280
Definitely.
00:40:01.679 --> 00:40:03.679
I have a lot of people that have a lot of people that do that.
00:40:03.840 --> 00:40:07.280
No, I've just said I have a lot of people that do that, and I'm more than happy to help.
00:40:07.360 --> 00:40:11.599
And again, if I can't help you directly, I can give you some advice to put you in the right way.
00:40:11.679 --> 00:40:12.880
And I do it from experience.
00:40:13.039 --> 00:40:14.320
This is stuff I've gone through.
00:40:14.400 --> 00:40:16.960
So this has been an incredible interview.
00:40:17.119 --> 00:40:18.559
I want to thank you for your time.
00:40:18.880 --> 00:40:20.079
Thank you for being here.
00:40:20.239 --> 00:40:22.639
This is the Managing Difficult People Podcast.
00:40:22.719 --> 00:40:23.840
Until next time.
00:40:24.159 --> 00:40:24.960
Thanks, Adam.
00:40:25.119 --> 00:40:25.920
Take care.
00:40:29.440 --> 00:40:33.519
So that's it for today's episode of the Managing Difficult People Podcast.
00:40:33.760 --> 00:40:38.239
Head on over to Apple Podcasts or iTunes wherever you listen and subscribe to the show.
00:40:38.559 --> 00:40:52.159
One lucky listener every single week that posts a review on Apple Podcasts or iTunes will win a chance in the grand prize drawing to win a ten thousand dollar private VIP day with Adam Holbrook himself.
00:40:52.480 --> 00:41:02.159
Be sure to head on over to Managing Difficult People Podcast dot com and pick up a free copy of Adam's gift and join us on the next episode.
00:00:01.040 --> 00:00:11.519
If you've ever worked with someone who creates chaos, plays the victim, and blames everyone else, then this podcast is for you.
00:00:12.080 --> 00:00:15.759
So here's your host, Adam Holbrook.
00:00:19.920 --> 00:00:22.960
Welcome to the Managing Difficult People Podcast.
00:00:23.120 --> 00:00:25.519
I am your host, Adam Holbrook.
00:00:25.920 --> 00:00:34.240
The reason I started the Managing Difficult People podcast, I was noticing that there's so much conflict and divide in this country.
00:00:34.479 --> 00:00:41.039
I was noticing that there's so many people throwing themselves under the bus and self-sabotaging themselves.
00:00:41.200 --> 00:00:45.359
And I'm noticing that the mental health crisis in this country is growing.
00:00:45.600 --> 00:01:02.719
And I said, maybe I can create a place, a safe place, where people can come and listen to my story, listen to my guests' stories, and maybe, just maybe, they can gain some awareness of what's holding them back in their own lives and how to move forward.
00:01:03.439 --> 00:01:06.799
My guest today is Michael Chris Mally.
00:01:07.519 --> 00:01:15.920
I met Michael about two months ago at a public speaking Toastmasters Club meeting, and he was a speaker.
00:01:16.079 --> 00:01:18.319
And I gotta tell you, he blew me away.
00:01:18.480 --> 00:01:20.159
He's a phenomenal speaker.
00:01:20.319 --> 00:01:24.799
And I found out he had just released his book, My Name Is.
00:01:25.280 --> 00:01:27.439
So I decided to purchase the book.
00:01:27.680 --> 00:01:29.120
And oh my.
00:01:30.159 --> 00:01:36.159
This book, you gotta get your hands on this book, is the most vulnerable book that I have ever read.
00:01:36.319 --> 00:01:37.519
No kidding.
00:01:37.840 --> 00:01:42.640
Michael has been a respected person of the community for many, many years.
00:01:43.040 --> 00:01:55.120
And then there was a major public fallout where Michael was the treasurer of his fire department, and he started stealing money from the fire department.
00:01:55.359 --> 00:01:57.280
Tens of thousands of dollars.
00:01:57.760 --> 00:01:59.200
And he writes about it in his book.
00:01:59.359 --> 00:02:02.400
Now, before you have a judgment here, listen to this.
00:02:02.640 --> 00:02:05.439
We all have skeletons in our closet.
00:02:05.680 --> 00:02:12.479
We all have things that we've buried deep, deep in the closet in a box that's sealed up.
00:02:13.039 --> 00:02:16.960
And then we just try to move through the motions of life.
00:02:17.120 --> 00:02:20.560
Or we come forward and we tell people about what happened.
00:02:20.639 --> 00:02:23.599
And then all of a sudden, we're trying to rebuild our character.
00:02:23.840 --> 00:02:27.199
Well, Michael turned himself into the authorities.
00:02:27.840 --> 00:02:30.800
He isn't denying that this happened.
00:02:31.039 --> 00:02:38.800
He isn't taking the wrap and saying that I'm a better person and this wasn't who I was.
00:02:39.039 --> 00:02:43.199
He's saying I publicly messed up for a very, very long time.
00:02:43.680 --> 00:02:47.199
And I'm gonna reclaim myself and rebuild my life.
00:02:47.360 --> 00:02:49.199
And that's what his book is about.
00:02:49.360 --> 00:02:56.080
It's about we are not the person that we were of the past, but we are who we are moving forward.
00:02:56.400 --> 00:03:07.120
Michael Chris Mally is an author, speaker, and mental health advocate whose work centers on identity, accountability, and redemption.
00:03:07.599 --> 00:03:21.199
Beyond his professional work, he's a proud father, son, brother, and friend who places deep value on family, connection, and the people who have stood beside him through every season of life.
00:03:21.439 --> 00:03:33.120
After a deeply public fallout forced him to confront the difference between reputation and character, Michael began rebuilding with greater honesty, vulnerability, and self-awareness.
00:03:33.360 --> 00:03:45.120
His book, My Name Is, reclaims that journey and introduces the Reclaim Framework, a practical path for moving beyond the shame and rebuilding a meaningful life.
00:03:45.360 --> 00:03:57.199
Today he uses the story to help others speak openly about their struggles, seek support, and understand that the past does not have to determine what happens next.
00:03:57.439 --> 00:04:01.919
Please welcome to the Managing Difficult People Podcast, Michael Chris Molley.
00:04:02.560 --> 00:04:03.039
Wow.
00:04:03.360 --> 00:04:04.879
Adam, what a what an intro.
00:04:05.039 --> 00:04:06.319
Thank you so much for having me.
00:04:06.560 --> 00:04:09.280
I've been looking forward to this, and I can't wait to dig in.
00:04:09.360 --> 00:04:10.319
Thank you so much.
00:04:10.719 --> 00:04:14.639
Michael, the audience is on the edge of their seats right now.
00:04:14.960 --> 00:04:20.240
They want to hear that story, how it started.
00:04:20.639 --> 00:04:24.319
You stole this money from the fire department.
00:04:24.639 --> 00:04:25.839
How did that take place?
00:04:26.000 --> 00:04:27.519
Why did it take place?
00:04:27.920 --> 00:04:29.680
Be vulnerable with us.
00:04:30.399 --> 00:04:32.079
Oh man, where to begin?
00:04:32.319 --> 00:04:42.240
So, first of all, the the thing to understand is that the person that I was at that time was definitely someone who I was respected in the community.
00:04:42.480 --> 00:04:49.439
I had a wife and a child, and basically I wanted to be someone that people could depend on.
00:04:49.839 --> 00:04:51.759
And that was very important to me.
00:04:51.839 --> 00:04:54.000
It's sort of like where I built my identity.
00:04:54.240 --> 00:05:00.319
What ended up happening in very plain terms was yes, I was sitting as the treasurer for my department.
00:05:00.399 --> 00:05:04.079
I had been the treasurer for many years, no incident whatsoever.
00:05:04.480 --> 00:05:06.959
And then, what's the term they say?
00:05:07.120 --> 00:05:08.319
Life got lifey.
00:05:08.560 --> 00:05:16.079
Because what ended up ultimately ended up happening was I started to have very significant personal issues.
00:05:16.240 --> 00:05:18.800
My world was quite literally crumbling around me.
00:05:19.120 --> 00:05:21.360
My marriage was falling apart.
00:05:21.600 --> 00:05:28.959
My daughter was dealing with some fairly significant issues, medical issues that were really weighing heavy on me.
00:05:29.120 --> 00:05:37.199
The other thing is I was working, as I always had, as a 100% commissioned employee doing in the financial arena, in the mortgage arena.
00:05:37.600 --> 00:05:46.480
And here's the thing you need to know for anyone that's working in that type of environment is you really have to stay laser focused on separating the personal from the business.
00:05:46.720 --> 00:05:51.279
Because when you're 100% commissioned, if you don't produce, you don't get paid.
00:05:51.600 --> 00:06:03.519
And I was dealing with such, you know, such trauma, if you will, that I started to that line became blurred and I was no longer successful as I had been before in terms of separating the two.
00:06:03.680 --> 00:06:07.279
And so ultimately, that's where the financial burden started to come in.
00:06:07.519 --> 00:06:10.079
Now I want to stress something as I tell this though.
00:06:10.319 --> 00:06:14.480
None of this excuses what I did, and I want to make sure that's really, really clear.
00:06:15.040 --> 00:06:28.480
In fact, the only reason that I ever started telling this part of the story about the troubles that I was going on was because when the story hit the news cycle, it reduced me to a headline and frankly made me sound like a monster.
00:06:28.720 --> 00:06:34.720
And eventually what I decided was that the fuller story needed to be told.
00:06:34.959 --> 00:06:40.319
And it wasn't to erase the accountability, but it was to provide a little context.
00:06:40.480 --> 00:06:50.160
And again, no excuse for what I did, but I think the point that I was trying to make to people was it didn't happen because I was buying vacations and diamond rings.
00:06:50.399 --> 00:06:55.199
It happened because in my mind I was trying to keep the walls from closing in.
00:06:55.439 --> 00:07:09.439
So the context didn't cancel the accountability, but accountability shouldn't require to erase someone's entire humanity, which is one of the reasons I started, you know, giving some of the context and some of the circumstances.
00:07:10.720 --> 00:07:15.600
I can relate to the straight commission positions.
00:07:15.759 --> 00:07:22.160
It's it is a lot on your mental health, the ups and the downs in life.
00:07:22.399 --> 00:07:27.759
And you're in a situation where your marriage is crumbling, you have a lot going on with your family.
00:07:28.000 --> 00:07:31.920
So now you're sitting there as the treasurer of the fire department.
00:07:32.160 --> 00:07:35.040
What was the first thing, the first step that you did?
00:07:35.120 --> 00:07:38.160
Because this isn't just come up one day and say, I'm gonna do this.
00:07:38.319 --> 00:07:40.800
How did that first time happen?
00:07:40.959 --> 00:07:45.199
Because I'm sure reading the book, I know it happened multiple times through.
00:07:45.360 --> 00:07:46.639
What was that first time like?
00:07:46.800 --> 00:07:48.720
Did you think that you were doing something wrong?
00:07:48.879 --> 00:07:50.000
Where were you at?
00:07:50.319 --> 00:07:55.439
Yeah, so obviously dealing, you know, dealing with a tremendous, tremendous amount of pressure.
00:07:55.600 --> 00:07:56.800
And it's one of those things, right?
00:07:56.879 --> 00:08:01.439
When you start having chaos with that sort of message with opportunity.
00:08:01.600 --> 00:08:03.439
And the story is really quite simple.
00:08:03.519 --> 00:08:08.959
And it's funny, and it's not funny, it's interesting that it almost really happened by accident.
00:08:09.120 --> 00:08:10.879
So let me set the scene for you.
00:08:11.120 --> 00:08:23.120
Normally, as the treasurer for the department, what I would do, I had an office there, and I would go and I would take care of fire company business, whether it's paying bills or preparing purchase orders, etc.
00:08:23.519 --> 00:08:25.759
The normal stuff that a treasurer would do.
00:08:26.000 --> 00:08:39.200
And on one particular night, sort of when I was in the throes of all this, you know, chaos, I was doing fire department business, and I had put that aside, and then I started to do some of my own personal business.
00:08:39.519 --> 00:08:47.679
And it's try to imagine, it's I so because I'm so sidetracked with everything that's going on, I wasn't fully present in the moment.
00:08:47.840 --> 00:08:54.399
And I went to go pay one of my bills, which by the way was no easy chore because, again, finances were tough.
00:08:54.639 --> 00:09:02.879
I went to go do it, and I started typing in the account number, and it was the account number for the fire department, which I had on like a separate sheet of paper.
00:09:03.120 --> 00:09:07.840
And I, again, not fully present in the moment, I was just kind of like on autopilot almost.
00:09:08.000 --> 00:09:11.120
Now, here's the thing in that moment, I caught it.
00:09:11.360 --> 00:09:12.960
I caught it, I didn't actually do it.
00:09:13.039 --> 00:09:13.440
I caught it.
00:09:13.519 --> 00:09:15.600
I was, oh my god, what am I doing?
00:09:15.840 --> 00:09:18.080
But here's the interesting thing about that.
00:09:18.559 --> 00:09:21.200
That sparked this idea in my mind.
00:09:22.159 --> 00:09:24.159
What if I hadn't caught it?
00:09:24.480 --> 00:09:26.639
Like, what if I had actually gone through with that?
00:09:26.720 --> 00:09:28.399
It clearly would have been a mistake.
00:09:28.639 --> 00:09:32.639
And so I started to then rationalize a little bit to myself.
00:09:32.879 --> 00:09:38.080
Like, well, that could have easily been explained, and then I just would have paid it back and it wouldn't have been an issue.
00:09:38.320 --> 00:09:55.120
So you could see where that little sort of a twinge of an idea, you know, started to fester into something more sinister, but not sinister in a way where I was trying to get one over on people because I just thought to myself, well, that could have been very easily, you know, easily explained away.
00:09:55.279 --> 00:10:07.200
And that's kind of where the idea came from, and it started to weigh on me a little bit, and it wasn't long after, probably only a couple of days, where I sort of rationalized to myself, well, let me just bridge the gap a little bit.
00:10:07.360 --> 00:10:08.000
You know what I mean?
00:10:08.080 --> 00:10:09.759
I'll just pay a couple of these bills.
00:10:09.919 --> 00:10:11.360
And here's the crazy thing, Adam.
00:10:11.440 --> 00:10:19.440
This is the thing that I think people I've explained this to a couple people before, and I think people are a little like not sure how to process this.
00:10:19.679 --> 00:10:23.120
Do you know the amount of relief that I felt when I originally did it?
00:10:23.440 --> 00:10:23.840
Wow.
00:10:24.000 --> 00:10:25.120
Yeah, think about it.
00:10:25.200 --> 00:10:29.759
I mean, I had done it, I knew, understand this, I'm a smart individual.
00:10:29.919 --> 00:10:42.960
I fully understood that there was something wrong with it, but I had I was in such a state of mind where almost being smart about it made me rationalize it even easier.
00:10:43.120 --> 00:10:50.159
And so what ended up happening was the first couple of times or the first couple of you know bills that I paid, and that's what I was doing.
00:10:50.320 --> 00:10:55.759
I was trying to keep the lights on and stuff like that, which by the way, a lot of people go through that and don't do what I did.
00:10:55.840 --> 00:10:56.879
So no excuse.
00:10:56.960 --> 00:10:58.159
It's just what happened.
00:10:58.320 --> 00:11:04.480
But in the aftermath, the immediate aftermath, the overwhelming experience that I felt was one of relief.
00:11:04.799 --> 00:11:08.000
I finally felt like this, I could exhale a little bit.
00:11:08.240 --> 00:11:09.759
And isn't it ironic?
00:11:10.000 --> 00:11:18.080
That's the same feeling that I would have many years later when I would eventually tell the story and start to, you know, tell people what I had done.
00:11:18.240 --> 00:11:21.120
That same sense of relief, but obviously for a different reason.
00:11:21.360 --> 00:11:22.159
So that was the thing.
00:11:22.240 --> 00:11:33.519
And then once you feel like, wow, okay, this is good, and I can like breathe a little bit, that part almost became intoxicating, and that line that I would never cross, I started to move that line.
00:11:33.840 --> 00:11:45.919
And, you know, ultimately, each time became a little bit easier because the feeling was one of some relief amidst all of the chaos and the hurt that I was feeling because of what was going on.
00:11:46.240 --> 00:11:49.039
And this was taking place over the course of years, correct?
00:11:49.440 --> 00:11:54.399
So, yes, it the approximate time it was just about a two-year period of time.
00:11:54.559 --> 00:12:04.320
And it was like periodically, it would be like, okay, we'll pay because initially the idea or the thought process was we'll just do this once or twice and then we'll pay it back, and then Right.
00:12:04.399 --> 00:12:06.480
You thought you were bought you almost like borrowing the money.
00:12:06.720 --> 00:12:07.360
Right, exactly.
00:12:07.440 --> 00:12:14.960
And that's kind of how I rationalized to myself, and then it just became easier and easier to do, and it just became almost a habit.
00:12:15.120 --> 00:12:25.519
And so, yeah, this took place over the course of about, say, a two-year period of time, and then you snap back into reality and you're like, Whoa, okay, you know, now we see what this added up to.
00:12:25.679 --> 00:12:29.200
And the other thing I always told myself was, I'll pay it back.
00:12:29.360 --> 00:12:31.840
And the ironic thing is I did start doing that.
00:12:32.000 --> 00:12:36.000
I did, because after that period of time, that's exactly what I did.
00:12:36.080 --> 00:12:40.799
I started putting the money back, and that that made me keep the secret even further.
00:12:41.120 --> 00:12:49.360
But Michael, you could have kept doing this for for years and years and years, and maybe not even be on this podcast today.
00:12:49.600 --> 00:12:51.440
What changed?
00:12:51.759 --> 00:12:54.799
Yeah, that's a great question, and I have been asked this before.
00:12:55.039 --> 00:12:57.519
Here's the best way for me to describe it.
00:12:58.320 --> 00:13:04.480
At a certain point, the hiding was no longer protecting me, right?
00:13:04.639 --> 00:13:06.480
It was really destroying me.
00:13:06.799 --> 00:13:14.159
Every day that I kept the truth buried, I had to live with the fear that it might eventually come out.
00:13:14.320 --> 00:13:23.200
Now it might not have, but I had to live with that fear and also the knowledge that I was continuing to betray the people who trusted me.
00:13:23.360 --> 00:13:24.320
Understand this.
00:13:24.559 --> 00:13:28.320
The members of my fire department, they were my family.
00:13:28.639 --> 00:13:30.639
I absolutely loved them.
00:13:31.279 --> 00:13:43.600
And even though my initial thought process was that nothing was hurting them directly, when I started to get a little more clarity in my life, I realized I was betraying these people and they trusted me.
00:13:43.840 --> 00:14:00.879
And so, you know, that feeling of basically bringing it out, and I had to do it, and I was terrified to do it, but honestly, I just reached a point where I was no longer willing to keep living in conflict with my own values.
00:14:01.120 --> 00:14:08.399
You know, uh, I don't know, I wouldn't necessarily call it strength because I knew there'd be consequences and I was afraid of them.
00:14:08.720 --> 00:14:17.919
But I had this realization that I could never truly move forward if I was still protecting this lie, even though it had stopped and even though I was paying the money back.
00:14:18.080 --> 00:14:21.360
And I knew that telling the truth might cost me everything.
00:14:21.600 --> 00:14:25.600
But continuing to hide was already costing me who I was.
00:14:26.000 --> 00:14:30.559
And you have a family, you have all of every all these pieces to come together.
00:14:30.799 --> 00:14:31.039
Yes.
00:14:31.279 --> 00:14:39.759
When you finally turned yourself in, and the only reason I know this is because I read the book, but I want the audience to know this, you met with the the chief.
00:14:39.919 --> 00:14:40.559
Am I correct?
00:14:40.799 --> 00:14:41.039
Correct.
00:14:41.279 --> 00:14:43.840
Can you talk talk to us about that day?
00:14:45.120 --> 00:14:45.840
Whoo, yeah.
00:14:46.000 --> 00:14:48.559
So January 1st, 2022.
00:14:48.879 --> 00:14:49.200
January.
00:14:49.600 --> 00:14:55.600
It's funny because throughout the course of my throughout the course of my journey, there's certain dates that I can like cite.
00:14:55.840 --> 00:15:00.960
January 1st, 2022, which is obviously New Year's Day, a decision was made.
00:15:01.279 --> 00:15:06.559
Because I had reached the point where carrying the secret was completely unbearable for me.
00:15:06.799 --> 00:15:08.000
I was really exhausted.
00:15:08.080 --> 00:15:09.759
I was managing two realities, right?
00:15:09.840 --> 00:15:15.120
I was managing the person that everyone believed me to be, and then the truth I was hiding.
00:15:15.279 --> 00:15:18.240
So, again, New Year's is kind of an interesting, right?
00:15:18.320 --> 00:15:21.120
You think about what's been passed, you think about moving forward.
00:15:21.279 --> 00:15:28.480
So I finally understood that there was no way to meaningfully move forward in my life while continuing to protect what I had done.
00:15:28.639 --> 00:15:33.120
So what I did to answer your question, this was about a week later, I believe it was January 7th.
00:15:33.279 --> 00:15:39.840
What I did was, over the course of that time, from the first to the seventh, I sat down and I wrote a four-page letter.
00:15:40.559 --> 00:15:45.120
And the four-page letter wasn't to send to him, it was to read to him.
00:15:45.200 --> 00:15:49.679
And the reason that I did it that way was because I was so emotional about this.
00:15:49.759 --> 00:15:57.440
I mean, I'm a writer, I'm a speaker, and I can do that, but I was so emotional here that I needed to make sure that I didn't forget anything.
00:15:57.679 --> 00:15:58.000
Yes.
00:15:58.240 --> 00:16:06.320
So for a period of about a week, I sat down and I wrote one of the most painful letters I've ever written in my life, and it was all in preparation to sit with him.
00:16:06.399 --> 00:16:09.519
He was going to be the first person that I spoke with to tell him.
00:16:09.759 --> 00:16:11.039
And I was scared.
00:16:11.279 --> 00:16:15.279
But there was a again, there was this sort of strange sense of clarity.
00:16:15.360 --> 00:16:21.679
And for the first time in a long time, I was no longer trying to escape what I had done, but now I had, you know, this task.
00:16:21.759 --> 00:16:23.039
So I got to the firehouse.
00:16:23.120 --> 00:16:24.639
I had asked him to meet me there.
00:16:24.799 --> 00:16:26.559
He had no clue why.
00:16:26.799 --> 00:16:29.600
And then he he gets there and we go into his office.
00:16:29.679 --> 00:16:34.159
And he and I had always had a fabulous relationship, so he was more than willing to sit with me.
00:16:34.399 --> 00:16:37.840
Sat down and I said, Listen, I need to talk to you about something.
00:16:38.080 --> 00:16:42.559
And then I pulled out the letter and I read it, word for word, from the first to the last.
00:16:42.799 --> 00:16:49.440
And you said in the book that he didn't react the way that you thought he was gonna react.
00:16:49.759 --> 00:16:51.120
You know it's funny, Adam.
00:16:51.440 --> 00:16:53.759
And I think anyone listening can relate to this.
00:16:53.919 --> 00:16:58.879
I think we all come up with conclusions as to what we think is going to happen.
00:16:59.039 --> 00:17:03.679
I could have given you a hundred different scenarios, and I definitely wouldn't have come up with what actually happened.
00:17:04.000 --> 00:17:05.039
And here's what it was.
00:17:05.279 --> 00:17:12.319
I read the letter, and there was a range of emotions that came from him, but he didn't in the immediacy say anything.
00:17:12.480 --> 00:17:15.680
But I could see his eyes welling up, right?
00:17:16.000 --> 00:17:17.519
And then he shocked me.
00:17:17.680 --> 00:17:22.559
Because you know, he stood up, he walked over to me, and he gave me a hug.
00:17:22.880 --> 00:17:23.680
Are you kidding me?
00:17:23.920 --> 00:17:24.319
Wow.
00:17:24.559 --> 00:17:25.440
Are you kidding me?
00:17:25.680 --> 00:17:26.079
Wow.
00:17:26.960 --> 00:17:27.839
Didn't see that coming.
00:17:28.160 --> 00:17:28.480
Wow.
00:17:28.880 --> 00:17:29.920
Did not see that coming.
00:17:30.000 --> 00:17:34.480
And here's what it ultimately came down to after a little bit of conversation.
00:17:34.720 --> 00:17:36.480
He was obviously upset.
00:17:36.640 --> 00:17:41.920
He was, in his own right, he was scared because what did this mean for the department, the whole thing?
00:17:42.240 --> 00:17:50.079
But he ultimately understood that I had family, and he understood what it took for me to come and tell him this.
00:17:50.240 --> 00:18:01.200
He understood that you know there might be consequences, and he understood the situation that I had been in, which caused me to do it in the first place, and he felt all of those emotions at the same time and expressed them to me.
00:18:01.359 --> 00:18:07.119
And in a weird way, and I think I say this in the book, in a weird way, that actually made the whole thing even more difficult.
00:18:07.279 --> 00:18:10.960
I almost wanted him to just be pissed off to say that.
00:18:11.200 --> 00:18:17.920
You know, but the fact that he showed the caring and everything, and at the same time I saw the hurt, man, that was tough.
00:18:18.079 --> 00:18:20.559
It was tough, but what a day that was.
00:18:20.720 --> 00:18:21.839
I'll never ever forget it.
00:18:22.079 --> 00:18:24.559
Alright, so now you tell the chief.
00:18:25.119 --> 00:18:27.440
He was the first one you told before your family.
00:18:27.599 --> 00:18:33.200
You talked about your daughter and how you talked to about her about this, and I want the audience to hear that.
00:18:33.359 --> 00:18:35.759
So explain that timeline to us.
00:18:36.000 --> 00:18:38.160
Yeah, okay, so I'll lay it out for you.
00:18:38.400 --> 00:18:41.200
First conversation took place with the chief, as I mentioned.
00:18:41.359 --> 00:18:48.960
About a week later, and for anyone that's ever been part of a fire department, there's usually an executive board, which is the people that run the business side of the house.
00:18:49.119 --> 00:18:51.920
And that's what I was, I was part of that as the treasurer.
00:18:52.079 --> 00:19:01.200
After sitting with the chief and only him, then the plan was we he put together an executive board meeting, like an emergency one, for a couple days later.
00:19:01.519 --> 00:19:03.759
Might have been like five or six days later.
00:19:03.920 --> 00:19:11.920
In which case, and this is crazy, then I had to go back to the firehouse and I sat with all the people that I served with on the executive board and told them the story.
00:19:12.720 --> 00:19:13.519
Good lord.
00:19:13.759 --> 00:19:14.400
Good lord.
00:19:14.640 --> 00:19:15.359
So there was that.
00:19:15.519 --> 00:19:18.160
Now, here's where we get to the family.
00:19:18.400 --> 00:19:26.000
In the immediacy after telling the fire department, and then I went and spoke to the police and you know, talked to them about it.
00:19:26.160 --> 00:19:28.799
It took about a month for the story to hit the news cycle.
00:19:28.880 --> 00:19:35.359
Now, in that time, I still hadn't said anything to my family, and part of that came from fear.
00:19:35.519 --> 00:19:40.480
Part of it came from the fact that I didn't know how they were going to accept or receive the news.
00:19:40.640 --> 00:19:46.880
And because it wasn't out there publicly at this point, I kind of kicked the can down the road a little bit.
00:19:47.440 --> 00:19:56.880
A whole month from the time you told the police chief before you heard a phone call or anything back, and you're like wondering when is this gonna hit.
00:19:57.039 --> 00:20:01.039
I think that the stress of that month would have probably given me a heart attack.
00:20:01.279 --> 00:20:01.920
I got news for you.
00:20:02.000 --> 00:20:06.319
It was actually two months because what happened was I spoke to the chief on January 7th.
00:20:06.480 --> 00:20:11.519
I didn't actually speak to the police and get officially charged until February 7th.
00:20:11.680 --> 00:20:19.680
So that was a month, and then it was a month after that, ironically enough, on my birthday, March 9th, when the news story hit the, when it hit the news cycle.
00:20:19.839 --> 00:20:32.160
Now, the day that it hit the news cycle, the day that day, I contacted my first there was I had I contacted my family and I said, listen, and they're in different parts.
00:20:32.400 --> 00:20:35.519
We couldn't actually physically get together, so we did a FaceTime call.
00:20:35.680 --> 00:20:38.480
And I sat with them and I said, and I told them what happened.
00:20:38.640 --> 00:20:39.519
So there was that.
00:20:39.680 --> 00:20:44.160
But the hardest conversation of this whole thing was my children.
00:20:44.319 --> 00:20:44.559
Yeah.
00:20:44.960 --> 00:20:45.440
My children.
00:20:45.680 --> 00:20:46.480
Understand this.
00:20:46.640 --> 00:20:49.599
And that, and by the way, that happened, that also happened the same day.
00:20:49.680 --> 00:20:56.880
Once the news cycle hit, I felt it imperative to make sure that I was the one that broke the news before they did, before they heard it.
00:20:57.279 --> 00:20:58.960
How old are your kids at this time?
00:20:59.279 --> 00:21:04.000
At this time, so this was uh, so let's see, there right now they're 20 and 14.
00:21:04.240 --> 00:21:12.960
So this was, my goodness, 26, this was 22, so 15 and 9, roughly.
00:21:13.440 --> 00:21:18.400
They're right in the school, and it's gonna come out and they're gonna need to know how to handle themselves.
00:21:18.799 --> 00:21:31.279
That in the immediacy, that's where my mind went because remember, we were a very respected family in the community, you know, firefighter dad, kids coming up in the school system, great kids, by the way, like really lovable, likable kids.
00:21:31.440 --> 00:21:41.759
And so there was that fear that as things started to spread like wildfire, as it typically does, there was the fear that they would, you know, hear things, and it wasn't really my intent to keep it from them.
00:21:41.839 --> 00:21:46.400
I just I kind of was biding my time a little bit, and this forced my hand.
00:21:46.640 --> 00:21:53.039
So I had spent my children's entire lives trying to be an example for them, as all parents can understand.
00:21:53.200 --> 00:21:59.599
And I had taught them to tell the truth, right, to own their mistakes and accept the consequences of.
00:22:00.240 --> 00:22:01.279
Their choices.
00:22:01.599 --> 00:22:12.240
And then I had to sit down in front of them and explain to them that their father had made a serious mistake and that our lives were about to change because of it.
00:22:12.640 --> 00:22:17.200
I didn't know if I was going to be able to get through the conversation, and it was a hard one.
00:22:17.440 --> 00:22:27.680
And I remember looking at them as they sat on the couch in my apartment, and I realized, before I ever said a word, that there was going to be a before and an after.
00:22:27.839 --> 00:22:34.240
There was going to be before they knew about this, and there was going to be after I what I was about to tell them.
00:22:34.319 --> 00:22:36.000
And that devastated me.
00:22:36.319 --> 00:22:44.640
Because part of me believed that the version of their father that they had always looked up to was about to disappear.
00:22:46.160 --> 00:22:47.519
And what's that going to do to your relationship?
00:22:47.599 --> 00:22:52.559
What you talked about before and after, before the relationship and after the fallout.
00:22:52.799 --> 00:22:52.880
Yeah.
00:22:53.759 --> 00:22:55.759
I really genuinely worried about it.
00:22:55.920 --> 00:22:57.440
And you know what they did?
00:22:57.680 --> 00:23:05.440
As kids often do, they man, they surprised me because they responded with more grace and more maturity than I frankly deserved in that moment.
00:23:05.680 --> 00:23:06.000
Wow.
00:23:06.240 --> 00:23:06.799
And you know what?
00:23:06.880 --> 00:23:08.640
That didn't really make the conversation easier.
00:23:08.720 --> 00:23:13.680
Just like I had mentioned with the chief, I almost wanted people to like beat me up because I felt like I deserved it.
00:23:13.839 --> 00:23:14.079
Yeah.
00:23:14.240 --> 00:23:22.640
But I wasn't only telling them what I had done, I was watching the image that they had of me change in real time, and yet they still treated me with that grace.
00:23:22.799 --> 00:23:26.880
So, yeah, the hardest part for me wasn't admitting the failure.
00:23:27.039 --> 00:23:31.920
I was really just wondering in the moment, would my children still believe that I was someone worth looking up to?
00:23:32.000 --> 00:23:37.920
And that's a hard thing to So now the time passes and the the police come to your house and arrest you?
00:23:38.079 --> 00:23:39.039
Is that how it worked?
00:23:39.359 --> 00:23:40.880
No, I went to the police station.
00:23:41.039 --> 00:23:45.119
Actually, yeah, I went to there and I and I sat down with sat down with someone.
00:23:45.200 --> 00:23:50.880
And here's the interesting thing, and it's funny, I've caught some flack for this, or I did in the immediacy, like we're past all this now.
00:23:50.960 --> 00:23:56.880
But I went and sat with them, and of course, they did the thing where they were like, well, you know, you have the right to an attorney, etc.
00:23:57.119 --> 00:23:57.359
etc.
00:23:57.680 --> 00:23:57.839
Yes.
00:23:58.079 --> 00:24:02.799
And at this point in my mind said, I was like, no, I don't want an attorney.
00:24:02.880 --> 00:24:06.240
Because I'm thinking an attorney's gonna tell me not to say anything.
00:24:06.480 --> 00:24:10.400
And I was in the mood now where it was like, I no, I want to let me tell you everything.
00:24:10.640 --> 00:24:14.880
I need to free my I need to free myself, even though this isn't the in the best interest.
00:24:15.119 --> 00:24:15.680
Yes.
00:24:15.920 --> 00:24:17.119
I need to free myself.
00:24:17.200 --> 00:24:30.720
I need to put it all out there because I can't live with myself by telling bits and pieces or having my attorney, you know, take what I'm saying and give it in this lawyer language, which is gonna help me get off the hook, right?
00:24:30.880 --> 00:24:32.720
You're just like, I need to throw this out there.
00:24:32.799 --> 00:24:35.759
I need to be completely clean so I can repair my life.
00:24:36.000 --> 00:24:38.319
And in a weird way, that's all 100% true.
00:24:38.400 --> 00:24:45.039
And the other thing, in a weird way, and remember, think of the things I told you about the reactions that people had and how that made it harder.
00:24:45.200 --> 00:24:47.119
I wanted the pain, Adam.
00:24:47.279 --> 00:24:52.000
I wanted to, I was so angry with myself that I was like, you know what?
00:24:52.079 --> 00:24:55.759
I'm not having an attorney because whatever the consequences are, I earned them.
00:24:55.920 --> 00:24:57.119
So give, bring it on.
00:24:57.200 --> 00:25:00.720
I'm gonna tell the story, I'm gonna get it out there because I'm tired of hiding.
00:25:00.960 --> 00:25:02.640
And that's what was my mindset.
00:25:02.720 --> 00:25:06.079
So I sat there for an hour and a half and told him everything.
00:25:06.160 --> 00:25:11.920
And then what happened was the officer, he was very kind, and he was like, look, he's like, I give you a lot of credit.
00:25:12.000 --> 00:25:14.240
I give you a lot of credit for sitting here telling the story.
00:25:14.400 --> 00:25:15.920
They don't see that that often.
00:25:16.160 --> 00:25:21.200
He steps out of the room and he goes and he calls the district attorney, right?
00:25:21.359 --> 00:25:22.400
The prosecutor.
00:25:22.640 --> 00:25:30.559
And I couldn't hear the conversation, but I was sitting there alone with myself at this moment, just like spent because of what it what was going on.
00:25:30.720 --> 00:25:33.920
Like, I my life was just like, what was this gonna be?
00:25:34.079 --> 00:25:37.359
He comes back in and he says, um, listen, he says, it should come as no surprise.
00:25:37.519 --> 00:25:38.960
They're going to file charges.
00:25:39.119 --> 00:25:42.480
And I was actually charged with three felonies on the same case.
00:25:42.720 --> 00:25:44.880
And then what happened was this is remarkable.
00:25:45.119 --> 00:25:51.200
He they process me, you know, which is they go in, they do the fingerprints, the whole thing, they take pictures of the tattoos and everything.
00:25:51.440 --> 00:25:52.960
And then they let me go.
00:25:53.119 --> 00:25:54.160
And I didn't expect that.
00:25:54.240 --> 00:25:56.880
I kind of expected I was gonna get thrown in jail, to be honest.
00:25:57.039 --> 00:25:57.920
But he let me go.
00:25:58.000 --> 00:26:03.119
He knew that I had to go pick my son up from soccer, and he was like, look, he goes, no one thinks you're a threat here.
00:26:03.279 --> 00:26:05.440
They said you're gonna have to appear, of course.
00:26:05.599 --> 00:26:06.559
But he let me go.
00:26:06.720 --> 00:26:08.480
And uh so that's how it happened.
00:26:08.960 --> 00:26:18.240
Because the the book doesn't talk about the end, and I'm starting to get the clarity on that because I was like, all right, maybe there's a a part two that's gonna be coming out because uh you left me hanging.
00:26:18.319 --> 00:26:20.720
I'm like, well, what where where were you going?
00:26:20.799 --> 00:26:28.240
What did he have to serve time in jail, or is it just you know that that he's still going through the case and I wasn't sure.
00:26:28.559 --> 00:26:29.920
So yeah, let me clarify that.
00:26:30.079 --> 00:26:32.319
So I did not go to prison for this.
00:26:32.559 --> 00:26:36.880
As I mentioned uh a moment ago, I was charged with three felonies initially.
00:26:37.039 --> 00:26:43.119
And at one point, when you add up the you know, the potential punishment for those three, it added up to about ten years.
00:26:43.279 --> 00:26:46.079
Ten years in prison is really what I was facing.
00:26:46.400 --> 00:26:56.880
Hard thing, by the way, for someone who had never been through anything like this before, hard thing for someone to tell you in a very matter-of-fact way, yeah, the possibility of getting 10 years in prison for this.
00:26:57.119 --> 00:27:00.799
I mean, that it was like, you know, okay, wow, am I really?
00:27:00.960 --> 00:27:02.319
You know, you just don't fathom it.
00:27:02.480 --> 00:27:29.759
But because I had no prior criminal history, because I came forward on my own, because I cooperated, and because, of course, I accepted full responsibility, what ended up happening was, and I'm very grateful by the way, I'm grateful to my attorney, I'm grateful to the prosecutor, I'm grateful to the judge because they saw that I was remorseful, and you know, and they took all those things into consideration, and I ended up getting convicted of one felony, I pled on one.
00:27:29.920 --> 00:27:36.559
So I have that, and I was sentenced to supervised probation, which is ongoing, and that's currently the process that I'm in.
00:27:36.720 --> 00:27:39.359
Now I want to say this though, because we're talking about punishment.
00:27:39.519 --> 00:27:42.000
I want to make sure this is really clear for anyone listening.
00:27:42.160 --> 00:27:45.119
This does not mean that the consequences weren't significant.
00:27:45.440 --> 00:27:50.960
Because let me tell you, you know, probation is not that bad, but it is still an obligation that I earned.
00:27:51.119 --> 00:27:54.720
But also, think about this outside the legal realm.
00:27:54.960 --> 00:27:56.480
I lost relationships.
00:27:56.640 --> 00:28:05.920
There are still people to this day, even with all the work that I'm doing now, who have never spoken to me again after reading the story that was put in the out in the public.
00:28:06.400 --> 00:28:08.960
My fire department, completely gone.
00:28:09.039 --> 00:28:10.319
I you know, lost that.
00:28:10.480 --> 00:28:12.319
Parts of my reputation, of course.
00:28:12.559 --> 00:28:17.920
And for a long time, and this is really where the basis of the book, for a long time, my sense of identity.
00:28:18.160 --> 00:28:18.720
You know what I mean?
00:28:19.200 --> 00:28:22.559
Michael, I I have I have to stop you there because here's what I'm noticing.
00:28:22.720 --> 00:28:24.640
So I first of all, I'm so proud of you.
00:28:24.799 --> 00:28:27.759
I think for being able to, I'm proud to know you.
00:28:27.920 --> 00:28:39.519
I I think this story coming forward is like I said earlier, vulnerable, and I think it really is going to help a lot of other people who are struggling in that fight in life.
00:28:39.759 --> 00:28:44.160
I believe, and I could be wrong, that I saw a cross around your neck.
00:28:44.240 --> 00:28:45.680
And I didn't know that a cross?
00:28:46.000 --> 00:28:46.319
It is.
00:28:46.559 --> 00:28:47.039
It is a cross.
00:28:47.200 --> 00:28:47.519
Okay.
00:28:47.599 --> 00:28:48.880
So I would love to know.
00:28:48.960 --> 00:28:52.079
I I mean, God, God, Jesus forgives, right?
00:28:52.240 --> 00:29:00.720
And but I would love to know, and I think the listeners would want to know too, is who is God during this struggle, and who is God now?
00:29:01.839 --> 00:29:03.599
Yeah, this is a great question.
00:29:03.680 --> 00:29:05.759
And I am a very spiritual person.
00:29:05.839 --> 00:29:07.440
I kind of always have been.
00:29:07.680 --> 00:29:08.400
I'll say this.
00:29:08.559 --> 00:29:23.119
So before everything happened, I think my relationship with God was often connected to, you know, asking for help, protection, maybe a way out of difficult circumstances, and I think that's the case for a lot of people.
00:29:23.440 --> 00:29:29.839
But afterward, that relationship became a lot more honest, I think I would say.
00:29:30.000 --> 00:29:43.200
Because I stopped approaching faith as a way to avoid consequences, and I began to understand it as a place where I could kind of face the truth about myself without believing that I was beyond grace.
00:29:43.359 --> 00:29:48.880
Because there was a lot of self-judgment during this time, and so my faith became very important.
00:29:49.039 --> 00:29:57.359
There were moments, honestly, if I'm being honest, which I always am, when I questioned my why God would allow my life to fall apart.
00:29:57.839 --> 00:30:04.319
But but over time I started to ask a different question, and that's well, what am I supposed to learn from this?
00:30:04.559 --> 00:30:05.279
What is the lesson?
00:30:05.440 --> 00:30:06.880
Yeah, what am I supposed to learn?
00:30:07.039 --> 00:30:08.480
What am I supposed to change?
00:30:08.640 --> 00:30:09.680
What do I do with whatever?
00:30:10.240 --> 00:30:11.519
How can I serve more?
00:30:11.759 --> 00:30:12.400
Exactly.
00:30:12.640 --> 00:30:17.920
My faith really also taught me that grace and accountability are not opposites.
00:30:18.160 --> 00:30:18.400
Right?
00:30:18.559 --> 00:30:30.000
Grace doesn't pretend that the mistake didn't happen, and it doesn't remove the responsibility to make things right, but it reminds you that failure doesn't have to be the end of your usefulness or your purpose.
00:30:30.240 --> 00:30:34.720
So, yeah, the experience, it did have an impact on my relationship with God.
00:30:35.039 --> 00:30:37.519
But it just made me talk to him in a different way.
00:30:37.759 --> 00:30:42.000
Alright, so now your life, so alright, so thank you for giving that clarity.
00:30:42.240 --> 00:30:43.920
So now let's go back.
00:30:44.160 --> 00:30:50.319
Your life is spiraling, like it seems like the legal ramifications are done, people are distancing themselves to you.
00:30:50.720 --> 00:31:01.119
I know that in the book says that your girlfriend drew you guys closer together, and she stood by your side, and there were some people that stood by your side, but people that you thought that were gonna stand by your side, they kind of vanished.
00:31:01.279 --> 00:31:02.880
And understandably, right?
00:31:02.960 --> 00:31:04.480
And we're not gonna deny that.
00:31:04.799 --> 00:31:12.720
But when that is all happening, at what point do you realize your life isn't over and you can rebuild?
00:31:13.119 --> 00:31:16.960
Yeah, so I think let's see.
00:31:17.200 --> 00:31:22.000
I don't think that there was one single day, of course, when suddenly everything changed.
00:31:22.079 --> 00:31:25.279
It was more of a this was a gradual process for me.
00:31:25.440 --> 00:31:30.000
This gradual realization, you know, I I knew that my life hadn't ended.
00:31:30.160 --> 00:31:34.640
And when I go through the reclaim, you know, framework in the book, I talk about this.
00:31:34.720 --> 00:31:36.480
Like the R is recognize, right?
00:31:36.640 --> 00:31:38.559
Recognize that you're still here.
00:31:38.799 --> 00:31:40.240
You know, so that was big for me.
00:31:40.319 --> 00:31:47.599
And at first, I think I was focused, and I think this is reasonable, I think I was focused almost entirely on what I had lost.
00:31:47.839 --> 00:31:54.559
My reputation, the fire department, the relationships, and obviously the version of myself that I had spent years, you know, building.
00:31:54.799 --> 00:32:01.680
But what happened was over time, again, I began to notice that I'm still here, that I'm still a father.
00:32:01.839 --> 00:32:05.440
And because of those people who stood by me, I'm still loved.
00:32:05.759 --> 00:32:10.000
And I'm still capable of making choices that actually mattered.
00:32:10.240 --> 00:32:16.559
You know, the past definitely changed my life, but it didn't remove my ability to shape what comes next.
00:32:16.799 --> 00:32:25.279
So I think the real turning point for me came when I stopped asking whether I could get my old life back because there was a lot of that in the early going.
00:32:25.599 --> 00:32:30.720
And I started to ask, what kind of life could I build from where I was now?
00:32:30.960 --> 00:32:46.720
And so that that shift is really what eventually led to the book, the type of speaking that I do now, and the purpose that I now find in helping others who feel defined by their worst moment realize that they can have a purpose.
00:32:47.039 --> 00:33:00.079
So you wrote this book for people that maybe hiding something in the closet, or maybe came forward and their life is spiraling because of that decision, and saying that you can rebuild your life.
00:33:00.400 --> 00:33:06.319
I'd like to take a moment and talk about this, who I wrote the book for, absolutely, because I've thought a lot about this.
00:33:06.480 --> 00:33:11.359
And yes, I definitely wrote it for anyone who's ever felt defined by the worst thing they've done.
00:33:11.519 --> 00:33:14.400
I mean, that's that's the the one sort of sentence I would say.
00:33:14.720 --> 00:33:16.400
But it's not it.
00:33:16.640 --> 00:33:19.839
Because it's for the person who carries shame quietly.
00:33:20.079 --> 00:33:25.839
I often talk about in the early going before everything became public, or actually right after everything became public.
00:33:26.000 --> 00:33:30.079
I the reason it's called my names is because for a long time I wouldn't tell anyone my name.
00:33:30.240 --> 00:33:34.319
Because I was afraid that they would Google my name and the first thing they'd see is the news story.
00:33:34.480 --> 00:33:40.319
That is a horrendously a horrendous way to live, and I was effectively living anonymously.
00:33:40.480 --> 00:33:42.000
And I'm the person who was like the mayor.
00:33:42.160 --> 00:33:46.160
I'd walk into crowds, I'd walk out with 15 new friends because I get along with everyone.
00:33:46.640 --> 00:33:48.400
So I was a shell of myself.
00:33:48.720 --> 00:33:57.519
So this book is for the person carrying that shame quietly, and the ones who believe that they disqualified themselves from a meaningful future.
00:33:57.759 --> 00:34:08.960
It's for the person who may have made a serious mistake, who faces consequences, and here's the big one, who does not know how to separate accountability from self-destruction.
00:34:09.599 --> 00:34:11.199
That was a huge lesson for me.
00:34:11.840 --> 00:34:18.960
I wrote it for people who maybe they didn't experience a public fall, but maybe they understand what it feels like to not know who they are.
00:34:19.119 --> 00:34:21.119
Because shame comes from a lot of places.
00:34:21.360 --> 00:34:32.719
It can come from addiction, failure, broken relationships, poor decisions, of course, or how about just not feeling like you don't know who you are anymore because this world is insane.
00:34:33.360 --> 00:34:41.679
So ultimately, I wrote the book for the person who needs to hear that owning your past doesn't require surrendering the future.
00:34:42.159 --> 00:34:51.039
Michael, I gotta ask you, if someone's hiding a secret, it could be a severe secret, it's been in there for years, and it's eating them alive.
00:34:51.360 --> 00:34:53.280
What advice would you have for them?
00:34:54.800 --> 00:35:03.039
Again, from experience, I would tell them that the secret is already costing them something, even if no one else knows about it yet.
00:35:03.519 --> 00:35:04.719
It's not gonna go away.
00:35:04.960 --> 00:35:12.639
No, it's costing them peace, it's costing them honesty and connection, and it's really costing them the ability to be fully present in their own life.
00:35:12.719 --> 00:35:16.079
And those things are beautiful, and I am living proof of this.
00:35:16.320 --> 00:35:31.280
Now, I think it's important to say though, as I say that, because I do want to be responsible with any advice that I'm giving to someone, that does not mean that they should necessarily reveal everything recklessly or without considering the consequences first.
00:35:31.840 --> 00:35:35.519
But it does mean that they really need to stop carrying it alone.
00:35:35.760 --> 00:35:46.159
So I might say, hey, speak with someone, speak with a trusted person, a counselor, maybe a faith leader, or someone who's equipped to help them face it safely and responsibly.
00:35:46.320 --> 00:35:50.639
I actually have a whole group of people, I do a lot of promotion and stuff on TikTok.
00:35:50.800 --> 00:35:58.559
I have people who reach out to me on a regular basis for this type of thing, where they want to tell their stories because they know that I understand.
00:35:58.719 --> 00:35:59.840
So it could be anyone.
00:36:00.000 --> 00:36:00.400
I love this.
00:36:00.639 --> 00:36:00.960
You know?
00:36:01.199 --> 00:36:10.400
So the bottom line is you don't have to necessarily can you know confess everything to everyone, but you have to stop protecting the secret more than you're protecting your life.
00:36:10.639 --> 00:36:15.199
And Michael, if you could go back that day, that first day, right?
00:36:15.280 --> 00:36:20.800
You wrote that check, you ripped it up, and a few days went back and you said, you know what, I could do this.
00:36:20.960 --> 00:36:22.239
And you wrote that first check.
00:36:22.400 --> 00:36:24.239
What would you say to that person?
00:36:26.719 --> 00:36:32.000
Well, okay, so I would tell him to stop, but not in the way you might think.
00:36:32.159 --> 00:36:37.199
I would tell him to stop and tell the truth about how overwhelmed he really was.
00:36:37.280 --> 00:36:47.360
If I'm this is me talking to myself, I'd remind him that asking for help might feel humiliating in the moment, but it'll it will never cost as much as pretending you can carry everything alone.
00:36:47.599 --> 00:36:57.840
And it's funny, I the I got a lot of interesting comments about the following because I'm gonna make a statement that might seem controversial, but hear it out for what it is.
00:36:58.159 --> 00:37:03.280
As strange as this may sound, I don't think that I would erase this entire journey.
00:37:03.440 --> 00:37:06.000
Meaning, I don't know that I would go back and change what happened.
00:37:06.159 --> 00:37:06.960
I'll tell you why.
00:37:07.199 --> 00:37:11.360
First of all, I would absolutely make a different decision, right, if I had that same decision to make.
00:37:11.440 --> 00:37:12.880
That's no question.
00:37:13.199 --> 00:37:25.519
But I know that going through everything that followed what happened, it forced me to become more honest, vulnerable, self-aware, and intentional than I have ever been before.
00:37:25.760 --> 00:37:31.679
And it didn't make that doesn't make the decision right, and obviously doesn't change the hurt that came with it, because there was a lot.
00:37:31.920 --> 00:37:36.159
It just means that I have chosen now to not waste what the experience taught me.
00:37:36.320 --> 00:37:40.800
So I can't change the road, but I can decide what kind of man I am moving forward on it.
00:37:40.960 --> 00:37:44.639
And that's why I'm in many ways, I'm the best version of myself that I've ever been.
00:37:45.599 --> 00:37:49.679
I'm so proud of you, and I'm grateful to call you my friend.
00:37:49.760 --> 00:37:50.400
I really am.
00:37:50.559 --> 00:37:53.599
I think that you are gonna change a lot of lives.
00:37:53.760 --> 00:37:54.719
I really do.
00:37:55.199 --> 00:38:00.000
And I'm grateful that you came onto the podcast to share your story today.
00:38:00.719 --> 00:38:02.719
The book is called My Name Is.
00:38:02.880 --> 00:38:04.639
It's Michael Chris Molley.
00:38:04.960 --> 00:38:13.440
The Chris Malley is spelled in, and there's a V in there, Michael V Chris Malley, and it's C-R-I-S-M-A-L-I.
00:38:13.920 --> 00:38:15.440
And the book is My Name Is.
00:38:15.599 --> 00:38:17.360
They can get it on Amazon.
00:38:17.679 --> 00:38:26.719
If our audience wants to hear more about you, what your speaking is, how to get in contact with you, how can they do that?
00:38:27.039 --> 00:38:28.480
Yeah, a couple different ways.
00:38:28.639 --> 00:38:31.679
First of all, I am on Facebook, so social media is a great way.
00:38:31.760 --> 00:38:34.719
I am on Facebook, and it's just my name, Michael V.
00:38:34.800 --> 00:38:35.519
Krismali.
00:38:35.840 --> 00:38:38.320
As I mentioned before, I'm on TikTok as well.
00:38:38.639 --> 00:38:39.679
You'd be able to find me there.
00:38:39.760 --> 00:38:42.880
I have my handle on TikTok, ironically, is Fire Guy.
00:38:43.039 --> 00:38:47.280
But I've developed a really nice following there, and I have a lot of people that I communicate on.
00:38:47.360 --> 00:38:53.440
I do a lot of videos that are like, you know, minute, minute and a half, motivational type things that sort of coincide with my journey.
00:38:53.679 --> 00:38:54.719
Also on LinkedIn.
00:38:54.960 --> 00:38:56.239
So social media is a great place.
00:38:56.400 --> 00:39:02.800
Also, my website, Legacy Word Services, three words all together, legacyword services.com.
00:39:02.960 --> 00:39:05.039
All my contact information is there as well.
00:39:05.199 --> 00:39:12.559
And I would urge anyone who might be hearing this that if you don't know who to go to, I want to stress, you can come to me.
00:39:12.719 --> 00:39:16.800
You can come to me because if I can't help you directly, I might be able to put you in touch with someone who can.
00:39:16.880 --> 00:39:21.039
But his number is 8675309.
00:39:21.199 --> 00:39:21.920
No, actually.
00:39:23.519 --> 00:39:24.159
There you go.
00:39:24.320 --> 00:39:29.599
I mean, listen, at the end of the day, the underlying message here is whatever ails you, don't go at it alone.
00:39:29.840 --> 00:39:34.800
I've learned to lean on my my circle has shrunk because there's been people who have walked away, and that's okay.
00:39:34.880 --> 00:39:36.239
I had to get comfortable with that.
00:39:36.400 --> 00:39:38.960
But the people who remain, they're my rock.
00:39:39.039 --> 00:39:41.519
They're the people that I lean on when I'm having a bad day.
00:39:41.599 --> 00:39:46.079
And so just know you can reach out to me, you can reach out, like leave reach out to someone.
00:39:46.159 --> 00:39:49.840
Don't do it alone because a better life is out there waiting for you, 100%.
00:39:50.320 --> 00:40:00.719
So you can write Michael a message on social media, you can go to his website, you can actually get to contact him and you can start that conversation if you need to reach him.
00:40:01.039 --> 00:40:01.280
Definitely.
00:40:01.679 --> 00:40:03.679
I have a lot of people that have a lot of people that do that.
00:40:03.840 --> 00:40:07.280
No, I've just said I have a lot of people that do that, and I'm more than happy to help.
00:40:07.360 --> 00:40:11.599
And again, if I can't help you directly, I can give you some advice to put you in the right way.
00:40:11.679 --> 00:40:12.880
And I do it from experience.
00:40:13.039 --> 00:40:14.320
This is stuff I've gone through.
00:40:14.400 --> 00:40:16.960
So this has been an incredible interview.
00:40:17.119 --> 00:40:18.559
I want to thank you for your time.
00:40:18.880 --> 00:40:20.079
Thank you for being here.
00:40:20.239 --> 00:40:22.639
This is the Managing Difficult People Podcast.
00:40:22.719 --> 00:40:23.840
Until next time.
00:40:24.159 --> 00:40:24.960
Thanks, Adam.
00:40:25.119 --> 00:40:25.920
Take care.
00:40:29.440 --> 00:40:33.519
So that's it for today's episode of the Managing Difficult People Podcast.
00:40:33.760 --> 00:40:38.239
Head on over to Apple Podcasts or iTunes wherever you listen and subscribe to the show.
00:40:38.559 --> 00:40:52.159
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00:40:52.480 --> 00:41:02.159
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