![21. Chris [Umar] Carter](https://cdn-images-3.listennotes.com/podcasts/making-more-the/21-chris-umar-carter-kbVdeKT2t4Q-hJxe10yDoVB.1400x1400.jpg "21. Chris [Umar] Carter")
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Welcome to Make More, the podcast where high-performing business owners and visionary executives share how they're building more than just bottom lines.
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I'm your host, Billy Fitcher, an engineering leader turned business and executive coach, and I'm guided by a personal mission to help leaders create clarity, build forward momentum, and make more of what matters most.
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Before most alarm clocks go off, my guest today has finished his mantras and meditation and is already in the gym.
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That discipline runs through everything.
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Arriving in this country at 12 years old, rising from junior analyst to CFO, and then reinventing himself in the cybersecurity sector.
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His life's work is becoming the person leaders trust.
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And today he shares how.
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Umar, welcome to Making More.
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I am excited to be here.
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Thanks for having me, Billy.
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And looking forward to an awesome conversation with you.
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It's going to be a good one.
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I loved our intro call a few weeks back.
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And just you're you're such an interesting individual, and your story is one that so many people can benefit from hearing.
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So I'm excited to share it with the audience today.
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Looking forward to it.
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So tell me about maybe the most recent pivot that you've made because you had a career in finance, and then there's a been a recent pivot to the cybersecurity sector.
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So was there was there something that kind of forced you into that leap, or was it just a gradual progression that you saw things going in?
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Somewhere in between, I remember working uh in my office uh back a while ago.
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I'm not gonna date myself, but several several years ago, probably more than a decade ago, I was sitting in my office.
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I got a call from a friend slash colleague slash recruiter, and he said, Hey, um, you know, I have an opening with a large uh company that is looking for such and such.
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You obviously work for a um, it was a data security company at the time, even though you work in finance.
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Uh, let's have a conversation.
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So I said, sure, why not?
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Let's have that conversation.
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Uh prior to that, though, I was actually um, I've always been someone who likes to automate things.
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So even though I worked in finance, um, I got my promotions through automating, reducing hours in the, you know, the what we call the close cycle at the time.
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And so we took a couple of days out of the close cycle by streamlining some of the processes.
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And from there in finance, I continued to try to reduce the amount of time I spend doing work.
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Uh, unfortunately, I just got more work.
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So, with uh, as I was working in IT, I was sort of in the middle of uh some workforce reduction, not workforce reduction, but process uh process time reduction.
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Got the call, uh, kind of explained to him what we were doing, and he said, this is perfect because this is what they're looking for.
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And so one conversation led to the next, and then before you know it, I um pivoted into uh cybersecurity as a a consultant.
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Well, very good.
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And and making making your own space there now, and against such a huge need in this time of the the AI revolution and and what what are businesses doing to get on the right side of that and and be prepared for the changes that come with that.
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Um just yeah, a wild time.
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And I think um hopefully you you have great success in that new field.
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Yeah, I'm actually looking forward to it.
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Been in cyber for uh several years, actually, decade, uh over a decade.
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All right, uh close to 15, uh, 16 years uh within the cybersecurity industry.
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So I've seen um the transition, the waves, um the cycles.
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And so now we're sort of in the middle of uh the AI cycle, you know, understanding what the threats are, how to manage um the threat landscape, you know, given everything that that's afoot um in addition to everything that we were dealing with before.
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So very exciting times.
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How much of it is hype, do you think, versus how much of it is truly transformational uh technology?
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I don't think it's hype.
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I think there's a bit of hype, um, but you know, the substance of it substantively, I don't think we're going to go back uh to where we were prior to artificial intelligence.
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And artificial intelligence has been around for uh several years, if not decades.
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It's just that we got to a point where it was sort of a watershed uh moment.
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It is a watershed moment for us, but you know, I would look at it uh kind of the the the next industrial revolution.
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Think about where we were in the late 90s and the dot-com revolution uh came about.
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Um, you know, look at what Amazon has done to a lot of the small mom, mom and pops, uh, mom and pop shops.
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I think um, you know, people have just become used to, you know, uh, you know, ordering a package and having it being delivered within 24 hours.
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And I think with AI, the leaps and bounds and the um the opportunities are, you know, they're they're they're everywhere.
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And so I don't think people are gonna go back to the way life was prior to 2022.
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So I'm looking forward and I'm excited to see how uh we manage and we we manage the threats, but we also take advantage of the opportunities that are um you know within the AI landscape.
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It feels like a moment where we're going to need to adapt to what this technology and what these tools give us.
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Like it changes things so drastically that you know, I think about education, for example, and and wondering how how education is going to try and um just keep up with the ability to learn so rapidly and to have all of this information, not in a library, not not in a Google search, but just in a conversation with your computer.
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Yeah.
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Um it's I think it's you're absolutely right.
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I remember growing when I grew up, you know, on a dinosaur, but I remember growing up having to learn my uh my my tables.
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So the my square root tables, I could give you, you know, the square root of uh what's the square root of 20 of um, you know, what's 25 squared, what's two squared, what's 16 squared.
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I still have that in my memory.
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Um with the advance of um, you know, computers and uh calculators, I don't need to know that anymore.
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I'm now using I at that point when the calculator was allowed in the classroom, we started using uh different elements of our brain.
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Now I think you know, I remember having Encarta, uh that I don't know if you remember the encyclopedia.
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With Google, that kind of went away.
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So, you know, I I had books, encyclopedia books from A to Z in my um in my in my in my room.
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And now we kind of transitioned from Encarta to Google to Chat GPT to Claude.
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So I think it's just an evolution that um we'll continue to see and grow.
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I I don't think it's um, I wouldn't be afraid.
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I would think my thought is we think about how we manage this technology in a way that does not um you know compromise our ability to think independently, right?
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Those muscles, we don't want those muscles to atrophy.
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That's exactly right.
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And uh just so much is being written about this technology, and I think hopefully um the the just the the voices that that need to rise up are the ones that are talking about how to use it responsibly, how to use it with uh humans at the center of it.
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And you know, I think for that it's it's just gonna be the next thing that advances humanity, right?
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If we use it correctly.
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Right.
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So let's take a trip back.
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Um, I want to talk about where you were raised and and and the kind of life that you lived.
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It was on a farm, if I'm not mistaken, right?
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Yes, grew up on a farm in Jamaica, um, had to, you know, uh feed the pigs.
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Uh we had probably 20 different dogs at any given time.
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Uh we I had to, you know, feed the chickens, we had ducks, we had goats, we had cows.
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Uh we planted um our own dinner.
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Uh so it it's not unusual for me to go go to the farm and harvest some food, bring it to the home, have my mom cook it, you know, uh butcher a cow or chicken.
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Um it was just, you know, uh that's how I remember growing up.
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Going to Kentucky Fried Chicken was sort of a treat.
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A once uh once in the Blue Moon uh treat, we would all get in the car and take a 14-mile drive to uh Kentucky Fried Chicken.
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So a real delicacy, right?
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A real delicacy, yeah.
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Absolutely.
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Oh, and so you were about 12 years old when you made the move to the US, to the Chicago area?
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Yeah.
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So I moved moved to the SROM 12, um, moved in um to a new environment, new people, new values, new foundation.
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Everything was new, you know.
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And one of the things, you know, when you arrive in a new country at 12 years old, you learn something quickly.
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You stop talking, you start watching.
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So a lot of lot of observation.
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How did you earn your place in the new country, because I'm assuming you were still in school at the time, right?
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Just going through like like any other kid.
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Still in school.
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And uh as if if you remember, you know, when you're in middle school or junior high, uh kids tend to be very brutal in their honesty.
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And so I came in, did not speak uh, you know, we speak English in Jamaica, but uh we spoke uh British English, we had a dialect, um, we have our own, I would say, language that we speak.
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And so I spoke a little bit differently.
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I dressed a little bit differently, I uh saw things differently, and so that sort of made me a target um and you know, the butt of many different jokes.
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So I had to uh, you know, earn my strife, so to speak.
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I remember there were times I would uh lock myself in the bathrooms at lunch because I was just afraid to deal with uh some of the you know the things that my uh fellow students would throw at me.
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But yeah, it was very brutal, brutal upbringing, I would say.
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Middle schoolers can be brutal, like just oh my gosh.
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I've got a six-year-old right now, and I'm just at some some point he's gonna be in that and and transitioning to the uh the local high schools, and that's gonna be a big, a big job for him for sure.
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So if you imagine like any of the farm-taught habits from Jamaica, um, any of those that translated well to now your your career in leadership.
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Yeah, I would say, you know, one of the things that um you kind of mentioned at the beginning, um you know, waking up before the alarm goes off.
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One of the things that my dad has always impressed on me is that, you know, never rise after the sun.
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You should never be asleep when the sun comes up.
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And so he's always taught me, and my mom always told me stories.
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We used to get up before the sun, before dawn, and we would go farming, and you know, we were hard workers.
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And so that that that's always been the um the mantra when my mother got upset or she just she was just in a nostalgic state, remembering uh the old days.
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She taught me that, you know, um, always rise early.
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You know, if something needs to, if something needs to get done, do it and don't wait for someone else to to notice or tell you to do it.
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So those are all sort of the farm values that I kind of grew up learning and um just you know implementing in my life.
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And you know, every once in a while I'll hear my mother or my dad in the back of my head telling me something because they've it's just kind of it was a repetitive um mantra for them.
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Do it right or don't do it all, you know, don't wait to be told.
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You know, so it's always been uh sort of the way I do things.
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I love that that's instilled in you now.
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And instill you you find so much um, you know, kind of power that comes with that that early, early rise and and being up before the sun comes up.
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Um I think that's that's just such a a useful thing.
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And I I wish that I could build that discipline in my own life.
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I I sometimes um struggle like I'll try and do master swim practice at 5.30 in the morning, and and there are some mornings where that alarm clock goes off and I just I snooze and I I cheat myself of the opportunity to go and get a workout in early and start my day in that positive way.
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And it's because I lack discipline, right?
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And I need to I need to build those better habits.
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And so thank you for for being an inspiration in that way.
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Yeah, and I think we all have different strengths in terms of discipline, right?
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Uh that's we're we're humans, and so we do the best we can uh with what we're given.
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So good.
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And so you were given uh a place in Chicago, but you didn't stay in Chicago.
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Your your early career in finance took you all over the place.
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Tell me about some of the stops there.
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So yeah, I went, you know, I started out my career um obviously in Chicago, in the Northwest, uh, the North, the north, the North Shore of Chicago, uh large organization, um, household name.
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Uh again, found ways to be very efficient, very effective.
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Um, tried to, you know, sort of in some ways competitive, outdo my peers in some ways, but not in a way that was toxic.
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And so uh two years into my career, I ended up um moving over to Brussels, Belgium.
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I stayed over there for a little bit over a year and a half, um, where I worked.
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Um, that was sort of my first promotion.
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Worked as a uh project controller, uh, managed a lot of the um the finance and the uh accounting functions of a large um the organization's largest project at the time.
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They were doing an uh an IT transformation.
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And so we uh had to work day and night.
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Uh in some cases, we were up at 12 o'clock at night, um, you know, making sure that systems were up and running.
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And even though I wasn't working in uh IT, I had to learn some of the processes, the systems, uh the integration points and things like that.
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And so um spent several waking hours uh just learning um how systems work, learning the culture, of course, but also um, you know, doing my job, which was to make sure that folks were paid on time, expenses were covered, um, budgets were uh being met and things like that.
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And so uh you also spent some time in Germany, is that right?
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Yeah, so uh Germany is also sort of one of my stops.
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Um, worked in Germany for several months.
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Um very interesting country.
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Um the people are very efficient, very kind, uh, but they also have some very um unique laws.
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There's a thing um, you know, and encourage your listeners to look at um or Google Workers' Council in Germany.
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Um they they tend to see things uh somewhat differently than we do in the US when it comes to um employment laws.
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And so um I had some very interesting encounters and very interesting conversations with uh colleagues at the time who were part of what's called the workers' council in Germany.
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But yeah, Germany, great place.
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Um, great work, I think.
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People are very efficient in how they do things and uh learn quite a bit.
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Didn't pick up much on the language, but it was also um it was a very, very tough language.
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But um amazing work, I think.
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And eventually you find your way back to Chicago.
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So what uh what kind of lessons learned did you bring uh on that trip home?
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I think you know, being in a new country, again, you know, coming here to the US from um from Jamaica taught me that, you know, you know, be observant, try to learn, try to absorb before making any big moves.
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And so, you know, for me, growing up on a farm taught me about cause and effects.
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And so when I transitioned uh from Chicago to Europe, um it was the same thing.
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Leadership works in the same way.
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Um, you have to be observant, you have to think about the ramification of your actions, how your interactions with people, and moving into a new environment, new culture, new style, new ways of thinking.
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Um, learned, uh taught me to be more patient, to be more thoughtful, to be more collaborative.
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Um, my way isn't always the right way, even though sometimes I think it is.
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Um I I have I learned that um I have to be more patient and thoughtful and accommodating because my approach isn't always um uh the best approach.
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But I think a lot of times as leaders, we have this kind of burden, right?
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Where people do look to us for the best ideas.
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And I think that's kind of uh almost an unnecessary pressure that leaders put on themselves because so oftentimes it it's the responsibility of the leader to bring about the best ideas from the team.
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Um, because I think, at least in my experience, you know, you're not going to be um always the the smartest person in the room.
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If you're if you're doing it right, you're hiring people that are more talented than you are to grow and and become your successor.
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So um I think just yeah, it was about, you know, why do leaders put that pressure on themselves when so often they could just turn to their team and kind of get the the same the same outcome uh by just raising those thoughts and ideas up.
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You're absolutely right.
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I think a lot of times, you know, when you're in a position of leadership, you feel as if the microscope, uh, you know, you're under the spotlight.
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And so people are watching you.
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And so uh sometimes you get into a performative mode where, you know, I have to perform, I have to prove myself.
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They're gonna think I'm not worth being here.
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And so a lot of times leaders tend to um, and I think it's not uncommon.
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I've done it, you're in a position where you just feel that you have to, you know, perform to ensure that people trust you.
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But, you know, on that same thread, one of the things that I've learned is that, you know, your character speaks, your character precedes you, and your character is, you know, who you become when nobody is measuring your performance, no one is watching you, you know, you're not on the spotlight.
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And I think that's far more important uh than the pressure we put on ourselves as leaders in terms of um having to live up to expectations of others or what we think others may expect from us.
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So back in Chicago now, is is this where you take on the CFO role for the first time?
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So, yes, back in Chicago, um came back.
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I worked as a consultant for several years.
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Um, in some cases, I was uh worked as an interim uh interim CFO.
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Um but at that time we would it was just called it was just called a consultant.
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So um a lot of hard lessons learned.
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Uh but came back in Chicago and I at that point I was still in finance, um worked uh because interestingly, as I was in Europe, I got laid off.
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And so I got laid off.
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I was part of a uh the team that was laying folks off.
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Then it came to my turn, then I was laid off.
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And so came back and I uh lived, uh worked, worked at um several um large organizations, but in a consultative capacity.
00:20:51.519 --> 00:20:58.319
And so in some cases, I was close to the CEO, close to the CFO, but still not a full-time role.
00:20:58.559 --> 00:21:11.359
Um, I think several years into that, I then transitioned into becoming uh sort of the mini CFO for at the time it was Singapore, Japan, and Australia.
00:21:11.519 --> 00:21:24.160
So a lot of um overseas uh uh foreign and um Asian tax laws and requirements and regulations that I had to learn uh on the fly.
00:21:24.319 --> 00:21:29.839
And so that was um very interesting, very interesting um time.
00:21:30.400 --> 00:21:36.160
I also was the what we call the auditor for our European entity.
00:21:36.559 --> 00:21:46.079
And so um my counterpart or the person who preceded me died maybe five days before I started.
00:21:46.319 --> 00:21:48.720
My boss called and said, Hey, we need you to start.
00:21:48.799 --> 00:21:49.759
Can you start earlier?
00:21:49.920 --> 00:21:51.359
So uh started.
00:21:51.680 --> 00:22:01.759
Um, unfortunately, or you know, you know, his demise obviously, you know, um that was a very sad time for the team and for the Company and for his family.
00:22:02.079 --> 00:22:04.799
But you know, it this was around October.
00:22:04.880 --> 00:22:21.920
And so we were coming up on the year and close, which means, you know, you sort of summarize all of the activities for the organization at the end of the year to provide to investors and to um uh the uh the the local government uh and the financial authorities.
00:22:22.160 --> 00:22:42.000
And so all his work was in French, and so I had to not only did I have to sort of figure out French, there wasn't the Google Translate at the time, uh, I had to figure it out and uh close the month uh and then obviously close the year provided uh you know management as well as statutory reporting.
00:22:42.079 --> 00:22:44.079
So that was very interesting time.
00:22:44.160 --> 00:22:49.119
I had to learn very fast in my first my first two or three weeks.
00:22:49.759 --> 00:22:50.400
Wow.
00:22:50.799 --> 00:22:54.480
No uh no opportunities for transition there, right?
00:22:54.559 --> 00:23:00.960
Where you can get you know the predecessors' notes and walk through the processes and just oh, here it is.
00:23:01.119 --> 00:23:02.000
Figure it out.
00:23:02.240 --> 00:23:02.720
Yep.
00:23:03.119 --> 00:23:03.759
Wow.
00:23:04.319 --> 00:23:10.880
And it sounded like I think this was probably before fractional roles really became so popular.
00:23:11.039 --> 00:23:21.200
You see fractional leaders all over the place today, but I think you know, you were kind of a little bit ahead of where that became commonplace in in maybe um your industry.
00:23:21.359 --> 00:23:30.559
And so um stepping into those roles in a consultant way and and helping just I think get you that next opportunity.
00:23:31.920 --> 00:23:36.799
Yeah, I think a lot of my colleagues and I um who you know we're still friends today.
00:23:36.960 --> 00:23:46.880
We sometimes look back uh and say, yeah, you know, we were doing a lot of things before that um we didn't know what it was, but today this is what it's called, you know?
00:23:47.039 --> 00:23:49.200
So yeah.
00:23:49.920 --> 00:23:55.680
So now officially uh about 10 years ago, the pivot to the cybersecurity space.
00:23:56.000 --> 00:24:18.720
So um again, you talked a little bit about it at the uh the start of this conversation, but but what uh what what did a finance leader bring to the table that maybe other cybersecurity leaders aren't seeing, they aren't picking up on I think, you know, what I've always said is, you know, numbers tell you what happened, relationships tell you why.
00:24:18.880 --> 00:24:25.440
And regardless if you're you're in finance or in uh cybersecurity, that's always the case.
00:24:25.599 --> 00:24:43.839
I think um one of the things, and I I still talk to people about this today, is that um people who work in cyber tend to be very technical, they tend to be very focused, they think about, you know, um they're very binary in terms of it's this or that, the ones and zeros.
00:24:44.079 --> 00:24:53.839
And a lot of times um we, as folks who work in cyber, we see things from a very siloed perspective, a very narrow perspective.
00:24:54.079 --> 00:24:57.200
Um, there's a risk, let's fix the risk and move on.
00:24:57.440 --> 00:25:20.960
And so what the industry is finding out now is that we have to sort of take a step back and put on a different set of lens that allows us to see uh the risk through the eyes of a business leader, specifically um other you know, C-suite executives, whether it's a CEO, CFO, CMO, CRO, um, whomever.
00:25:21.359 --> 00:25:37.759
And so I think the advantage or the, yeah, the advantage I say I have as a uh someone who's worked in finance, I sometimes look at the financial implications or the financial ramification of a decision.
00:25:38.079 --> 00:25:45.440
I've always risk is risk, whether it's cyber risk, financial risk, reputational risk, operational risk, risk is risk.
00:25:45.519 --> 00:26:03.519
It's a threat to the business that could potentially, you know, if that risk is realized, um, could cause harm or could um, you know, negatively impact how the business carry out its remit in order to, you know, um increase the bottom line or the top line.
00:26:03.759 --> 00:26:25.359
And so having that CFO lens always has always uh given me a more nuanced view of how to manage and how to dissect, how to understand and implement um solutions, remediation that are um relevant to the risk as well as the business.
00:26:25.599 --> 00:26:27.680
So that's always been the case.
00:26:27.759 --> 00:26:31.440
I've talked to many uh chief information security officers.
00:26:31.519 --> 00:26:42.480
In some cases, we've sat, we've helped, uh I've helped them put their budgets together because again, the budget is what helps you carry out your remit.
00:26:42.640 --> 00:26:44.640
If you don't have a budget, you're limited.
00:26:44.799 --> 00:27:02.240
And so uh framing uh how you're going to use that budget um allows you to, you know, um, or prevents you from getting the budget you need to carry out the remit in terms of getting what you need to get done to support the business.
00:27:04.799 --> 00:27:12.000
So are you all working in some fractional and interim executive roles today with with the consulting work that you're doing?
00:27:12.480 --> 00:27:18.160
Yes, I just finished up a role as a believe it or not, I worked for a small non-for-profit organization.
00:27:18.400 --> 00:27:18.720
Nice.
00:27:19.039 --> 00:27:23.200
Um we were um, you know, it's all about mental health.
00:27:23.279 --> 00:27:26.559
So their space was the you know mental health, healthcare.
00:27:26.720 --> 00:27:31.200
And so worked for six months as their interim executive director.
00:27:31.519 --> 00:27:34.880
Um and just finished that up.
00:27:35.119 --> 00:27:36.000
Great organization.
00:27:36.160 --> 00:27:39.039
The board was very supportive, staff was very supportive.
00:27:39.200 --> 00:27:49.119
Uh, had an opportunity to kind of set the foundation um without um, you know, disrupting how you know they they they did things.
00:27:49.200 --> 00:28:01.440
So kind of um level setting, but also ensuring that the things that needed to be done on a day-to-day basis was not um were not kind of um missed.
00:28:01.599 --> 00:28:17.359
Also keeping staff engaged, keeping staff motivated, ensuring that we had a budget, uh communicating with the board, uh communicating with stakeholders and funders and donors uh in a way that allowed us to, you know, um move, live on.
00:28:17.519 --> 00:28:25.839
If if you've if you've worked for non-for-profit, you understand that non-for-profit means um exactly non-for-profit.
00:28:25.920 --> 00:28:29.839
We don't operate in an environment where we're going after a lot of money.
00:28:30.000 --> 00:28:34.960
However, we do need the money in order to run the programs to, you know, effect change.
00:28:35.200 --> 00:28:38.960
So it was a awesome, um, awesome experience.
00:28:39.119 --> 00:28:56.400
I was also working in at this parallel in parallel, working with a um several several startups in terms of you know doing advisory work, go-to-market strategy, ensuring that they have the appropriate uh amount of resources to um to meet market demand.
00:28:56.640 --> 00:28:58.559
So very exciting times.
00:28:58.880 --> 00:28:59.359
Mm-hmm.
00:29:00.079 --> 00:29:02.079
And you're exactly right about nonprofits.
00:29:02.160 --> 00:29:15.119
I think what what the biggest um difference that I saw going from like large corporation um to nonprofit sector was just the the lack of resources, right?
00:29:15.200 --> 00:29:21.440
The lack of just they don't they don't have anything in abundance or extra of anything.
00:29:21.519 --> 00:29:29.839
It's just they are bare bones working from just the uh the very small staff that is there passionately doing the work.
00:29:29.920 --> 00:29:34.079
And so um they oftentimes don't even know what they don't have.
00:29:34.720 --> 00:29:35.680
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:29:35.839 --> 00:29:46.960
And I've uh you know spent probably 30 years in non-for-profit, and you know, there's a lot of times resources is a bottleneck.
00:29:47.039 --> 00:29:51.200
Sometimes you'll have um people who go after resources in the wrong way.
00:29:51.359 --> 00:30:08.400
I've seen where um, you know, uh organization leadership in the organization um do things that are not necessarily um in compliance with uh regulators, with regulators' expectation, and sometimes find themselves in a lot of trouble.
00:30:08.559 --> 00:30:27.680
Um, you know, being in the non-for-profit space, you have to be charismatic, you have to be articulate, you have to be uh someone who's dynamic, but there's also the foundational aspects of it that requires um that you stay within the boundaries of the laws, the legal systems, and uh you protect your reputation, right?
00:30:27.759 --> 00:30:29.440
That's a big thing with non-for-profits.
00:30:29.759 --> 00:30:37.039
So it's it's um it's a lot of fun, but we have to ensure that we're working within the confines and the parameters of the law.
00:30:38.559 --> 00:30:39.359
So good.
00:30:40.079 --> 00:30:44.559
Before we get too far, I want to talk about your 4 15 a.m.
00:30:44.640 --> 00:30:45.359
operating system.
00:30:45.839 --> 00:30:48.240
Can you can you walk us through the ritual?
00:30:48.720 --> 00:30:52.240
Take us through your morning, morning process.
00:30:52.799 --> 00:30:56.960
But yeah, I usually wake up um so I set my alarm for 4 20.
00:30:57.039 --> 00:31:02.240
And for some reason I I'll get up like five minutes or two minutes or three minutes or 10 minutes before my alarm.
00:31:02.319 --> 00:31:02.960
Very good.
00:31:03.119 --> 00:31:03.680
Body's ready.
00:31:03.759 --> 00:31:04.079
Just go.
00:31:04.960 --> 00:31:13.599
Yeah, so wake up and um I don't want to get too religious because this is not a religious show, but I I go through a set of mantras.
00:31:13.680 --> 00:31:15.359
I thank God for waking up.
00:31:15.599 --> 00:31:20.960
Um, and then, you know, the first thing I do is I head to the bathroom, start brushing my teeth.
00:31:21.039 --> 00:31:23.440
I have sort of a mantra for brushing my teeth.
00:31:23.680 --> 00:31:40.160
I take a shower, there's a mantra for that, putting my clothes on, and so uh transition out of the bathroom, if you will, into uh in front of my um, so I have a designated space in my house where I directly go, I sit and I kind of reflect.
00:31:40.480 --> 00:31:51.839
Um uh I pray, uh, I continue to do my mantra, and that probably the whole circuit takes me maybe about this is from 420 and by 445.
00:31:52.079 --> 00:31:54.240
So it's about 25 to 30 minutes.
00:31:54.319 --> 00:31:55.920
Um, and then I head out.
00:31:56.160 --> 00:32:02.240
I'm um, I go, I do sort of a uh devotional congregational devotion.
00:32:02.400 --> 00:32:15.200
And then from there I head straight to the gym where I stay there from maybe about 5:15, 5:30 until nine o'clock, I would say sometimes eight o'clock hours.
00:32:15.440 --> 00:32:26.480
And uh, you know, I sometimes I'll have calls in between, but you know, this the running, the stretching, the dynamic lifting, and things like that enables me to kind of stay focused throughout the day.
00:32:26.640 --> 00:32:31.680
If I don't get that done, it's like I don't feel as if um I've accomplished anything.
00:32:31.839 --> 00:32:33.759
So it's part of my ritual.
00:32:34.079 --> 00:32:36.480
So both cardio and lifting then, yes?
00:32:36.799 --> 00:32:42.319
Little bit of, yep, a little bit of cardiovascular work and some um anabolic uh work as well.
00:32:42.640 --> 00:32:42.960
Okay.
00:32:43.519 --> 00:32:44.319
Very good.
00:32:44.799 --> 00:32:45.920
Do you swim?
00:32:49.440 --> 00:32:52.640
I'm embarrassed to say I I cannot, I'm not a very good swimmer.
00:32:52.720 --> 00:32:54.640
I remember swim lessons.
00:32:54.799 --> 00:32:59.279
My uh the swim instructor said, let's just teach you not to drown, right?
00:32:59.440 --> 00:33:08.000
Because uh so heavy I couldn't stay buoyant and but no, I I I I do, you know, there's a cold, cold plunge.
00:33:08.079 --> 00:33:10.480
I go on the cold plunge, I enjoy the pool.
00:33:10.799 --> 00:33:14.160
Uh, but uh the swimming is not a part of my routine.
00:33:14.480 --> 00:33:16.240
That's not for you, like you talked about.
00:33:16.319 --> 00:33:18.240
Everybody's got their own way of discipline.
00:33:18.319 --> 00:33:19.680
So that's perfect.
00:33:20.000 --> 00:33:20.319
Oh.
00:33:21.039 --> 00:33:30.559
And so imagine now um you're you're bringing this discipline from the morning rituals and the gym time into leadership.
00:33:30.880 --> 00:33:35.359
What what routines have you helped protect in the office?
00:33:36.960 --> 00:33:45.519
Um, I think, you know, what I say about my morning routine is, you know, the morning is about accomplishing more.
00:33:45.839 --> 00:33:48.000
It's not just about accomplishing more.
00:33:48.240 --> 00:33:54.400
It's about becoming the person I want to be before this, before you know the world starts making demands from me.
00:33:54.640 --> 00:34:04.079
I think um one of the things that I've learned is that, you know, what you know, is the motivation.
00:34:04.240 --> 00:34:12.480
So a lot of times, you know, I'm faced with the on the heavy days, I'm faced with, okay, I have to sit under this bench or I have to go under the squat rack.
00:34:12.880 --> 00:34:15.519
And I don't want to do it.
00:34:16.320 --> 00:34:23.760
Uh, but I, you know, uh there's a I have a guy in the gym, he has a shirt that says, don't let the hard days win.
00:34:24.159 --> 00:34:29.760
And every day I see it, um, I it I smile because I understand exactly what that means.
00:34:29.920 --> 00:35:11.280
And I think how that for me, how that translates into my um, into, you know, from I would say the gym to the office is a lot of times you're faced with um challenges or opportunities or an uphill battle that, you know, you have to remain where that requires you to remain calm under pressure, it requires you to maintain um a certain decorum, a certain uh level of just being level-headed and being able to understand the problem for what it is, not necessarily, you know, personalize it or see it as um a slight, but to see it as an opportunity to collaborate with each other.
00:35:11.360 --> 00:35:18.079
Because again, sometimes we don't necessarily understand uh the bigger picture because we're looking at just a part of it.
00:35:18.239 --> 00:35:31.920
And so um I may so to bring this to a close on a hard day, I may be struggling with just doing, you know, 10 10 reps of my last set.
00:35:32.480 --> 00:35:42.719
Um, but that could be that could be the the set that allows me to live a year longer because something happened.
00:35:42.960 --> 00:35:52.880
Now, taking that to the office, uh, I may be faced with a challenge or a tough, tough, um, a tough uh uh tough challenge in front of me.
00:35:53.119 --> 00:36:04.480
And pushing it through, staying through, um, staying disciplined, seeing it through, not only will I learn the lessons, but in some cases I uh accomplish what I set out to accomplish.
00:36:04.800 --> 00:36:14.719
So uh, you know, going back to the waking up early, I don't wake up early because I enjoy the mornings, I wake up early because I enjoy who I become.
00:36:14.960 --> 00:36:20.880
So sometimes the challenge is it defines you, it uh allows you to be stronger.
00:36:21.119 --> 00:36:30.639
You may lose the battle, but from you know, and I hate to use um uh that type of analogy, but you sometimes you win the bigger picture.
00:36:30.719 --> 00:36:31.679
So yeah.
00:36:31.920 --> 00:36:42.000
And I think this will this will parlay nicely into now, asking advice for leaders who admire your routine, but maybe say they don't have the time for it.
00:36:43.599 --> 00:36:45.199
Yeah, you know, you make the time.
00:36:45.360 --> 00:36:48.159
You make the time for what's uh for what's important.
00:36:48.480 --> 00:37:03.360
Um, and I, you know, this is one of the things I tell my kids, um, you know, things that you're living the you're living decisions that you've made several weeks or months and probably years ago.
00:37:03.599 --> 00:37:12.639
So the decisions you make today have a significant impact on what your life trajectory uh will be years or decades from now.
00:37:12.960 --> 00:37:22.800
So, you know, make the time for the things that are important to you and prioritize, ensure that you're doing what is right, even though it's hard sometimes.
00:37:26.239 --> 00:37:32.960
And Umar, I want to give you a chance to talk about uh something that I know was uh a great impact uh on your life.
00:37:33.119 --> 00:37:34.559
It was uh a battle with cancer.
00:37:34.639 --> 00:37:40.239
So can you share with the audience a little bit about what what that journey was like and and where you're at with it now?
00:37:41.199 --> 00:37:48.880
It's very interesting because it's it's exactly almost a year ago, maybe a week from a year ago, that I um I had my surgery and felt.
00:37:49.199 --> 00:37:54.000
One of the things that I would say is, you know, cancer didn't teach me how valuable life is.
00:37:54.159 --> 00:37:57.119
It reminded me how valuable life is.
00:37:57.360 --> 00:38:06.639
And so um, you know, at a very, I would say last year, 2025, was a very challenging uh year for me.
00:38:06.960 --> 00:38:12.800
Um and you know, like I said, cancer, it didn't really teach me, it just reminded me.
00:38:13.039 --> 00:38:15.039
It changed the question I asked myself.
00:38:15.199 --> 00:38:19.119
Instead of, you know, I'll ask myself, how much can I accomplish?
00:38:19.360 --> 00:38:22.880
I started to ask, what will matter?
00:38:23.440 --> 00:38:29.039
Um, you know, I've realized success, I realize, you know, success.
00:38:29.280 --> 00:38:33.199
Uh let me put this in a very succinct way.
00:38:33.360 --> 00:38:37.360
I've realized success that isn't shared eventually becomes empty.
00:38:37.519 --> 00:38:48.800
And so whether it's with my family, my colleagues, my friends, or people that I I encounter, that's one of the things that I would say, you know, um, that I've learned over the last year.
00:38:48.960 --> 00:38:50.960
And I'm still learning.
00:38:51.199 --> 00:39:02.000
I'm I still have my uh struggles, but I'm really um, I really appreciate the opportunity of being uh a cancer survivor.
00:39:02.159 --> 00:39:07.519
Um I am a part of another group called the Reluctant Brotherhood, who uh, you know, I work.
00:39:07.679 --> 00:39:22.639
One of the things we talked about my morning routine, one of the things I intend or the intentions I have on a daily basis is to support others who may be struggling, whether it's with cancer or just something in life that a hill that they have to climb.
00:39:22.719 --> 00:39:30.719
I want to be there to support them, to push them when it gets when they get tired, or to give them a glass of water to say, you know, encourage them to keep going.
00:39:31.039 --> 00:39:46.159
So I sort of went off there, but I don't know if I answered the question, but that's really what I've um over time um I've learned the value of life, the value of relationship, and the importance of you know staying positive.
00:39:47.199 --> 00:39:52.639
And I think you also flipped it, you know, you went very philanthropic with your journey.
00:39:52.719 --> 00:40:02.400
And so you you made it not about yourself, but about helping others now and helping helping others, maybe not with cancer necessarily, but just with anything they are going through.
00:40:02.639 --> 00:40:06.159
So what has that what has that mentoring been like for you?
00:40:06.320 --> 00:40:12.559
And and is it is it leaning more towards people in professional roles or just in in life in general?
00:40:12.960 --> 00:40:23.840
I think in life in general, obviously, you know, we talked about the um how the technology and the workforce, um, those are really have changed.
00:40:23.920 --> 00:40:32.480
And a lot of what I'm experiencing is I have a lot of friends, a lot of colleagues, a lot of people that I meet who are struggling with just finding a new job.
00:40:32.719 --> 00:40:46.719
And so I think um what I've learned, you know, through my journey is that, you know, sometimes you just have to keep going, even when you don't feel like it, when you're tired, you start questioning your ability.
00:40:47.280 --> 00:40:55.199
Um, you know, you start developing um negative thoughts, right?
00:40:55.519 --> 00:41:00.400
Uh it I think that's that's what a lot of folks are struggling with.
00:41:00.559 --> 00:41:04.239
So I tell people all the time, I said, you know, don't try to impress others.
00:41:04.320 --> 00:41:08.239
Stop trying to impress people, start trying to become useful.
00:41:08.400 --> 00:41:13.199
You know, use people, uh useful people become trusted.
00:41:13.360 --> 00:41:19.039
And so, you know, trusted people become leaders and leaders create opportunities.
00:41:19.199 --> 00:41:30.000
And so even though you may be in a position where you cannot, you're not able to earn a paycheck today, you know, stay focused, find other ways.
00:41:30.079 --> 00:41:42.079
Don't measure your success through the number of zeros that that that are in your bank account, but measure it through how you are able to make a positive impact in other people's lives.
00:41:42.559 --> 00:41:53.920
And so even with mentoring or coaching, I think um I try to create other coaches and other mentors so that they can be of benefit to others.
00:41:54.079 --> 00:42:14.639
You know, for me, the greatest return on investment I've seen is believing in someone before they believe in themselves and empowering them to get to a point where they can um empower and encourage and coach and mentor and teach others to be right that version of themselves that they may not have been aware of.
00:42:16.159 --> 00:42:16.800
So good.
00:42:17.039 --> 00:42:31.440
That that idea of being valuable and the fact that if you can become valuable to others, um, you have a platform to grow with and and to teach others and make them valuable in the same way.
00:42:32.480 --> 00:42:33.840
Absolutely.
00:42:34.239 --> 00:42:39.440
So I know you talked about your son was visiting a university when we first spoke.
00:42:39.599 --> 00:42:48.079
So I wonder if there is maybe one principle that you hope your son carries into their young career as they begin their college journey.
00:42:48.880 --> 00:42:55.039
Yeah, you know, for for him, um, and he's actually, we had he had a uh he's he is at a game right now.
00:42:55.119 --> 00:42:57.360
And he just he just left.
00:42:57.440 --> 00:43:03.039
But I, you know, another thing I say, you know, more than anything, I hope he becomes someone people can trust.
00:43:03.280 --> 00:43:19.039
Um, besides the, you know, everything that's going on, um, talent opens the door, but your character determines whether the door stays open or whether um you're able to become successful and gain a seat at the table uh once you get into the door.
00:43:19.119 --> 00:43:22.079
So I think for me, that's what I hope for him.
00:43:24.320 --> 00:43:25.039
Perfect.
00:43:25.760 --> 00:43:30.960
And now we've reached the title question of the podcast fill in the blank.
00:43:31.440 --> 00:43:38.079
Making more blank is most important to you at this point in your life and career.
00:43:40.400 --> 00:43:43.519
Again, I you know, I would say making more trust.
00:43:43.840 --> 00:43:48.239
You know, everything meaningful in my career has come from trust.
00:43:48.400 --> 00:43:55.440
And I think trust, you know, again, I say it creates opportunities, trust it creates a partnership, and trust creates leadership.
00:43:55.840 --> 00:43:58.639
Trust um creates influence.
00:43:59.360 --> 00:44:08.800
If I leave if I can leave behind more than more trust than I found, then I think I'll consider my career successful.
00:44:09.039 --> 00:44:41.760
Um that would be something that I would um be happy with, you know, increasing the trust, um, ensuring that folks are um in an environment where they have psychological oxygen, they can thrive, they can grow, and they can um help others and be a benefit, uh not just to themselves and the people around them, but also their community and extend to the larger um the globe, so to speak.
00:44:44.000 --> 00:44:47.840
Um more where can people find out more about you and what you're doing?
00:44:48.480 --> 00:44:55.519
Uh uh my social media uh you know of choice is LinkedIn.
00:44:55.679 --> 00:45:00.480
I do a lot of work on uh LinkedIn, I make a lot of posts, I make a lot of connections.
00:45:00.639 --> 00:45:05.760
Um every once in a while I have uh what I call a 30 for 30.
00:45:05.840 --> 00:45:12.239
So for 30 days I'll um mentor or coach folks or do mock interviews for people who are looking for jobs.
00:45:12.320 --> 00:45:16.320
So I pick 30 people, they get 30 minutes uh for 30 days.
00:45:16.639 --> 00:45:20.079
And so I usually um I'm usually on LinkedIn.
00:45:20.239 --> 00:45:22.320
Um I'm very responsive on LinkedIn.
00:45:22.400 --> 00:45:29.679
I'm actually more responsive on LinkedIn sometimes than I am with my um, you know, with a text message or an email.
00:45:29.920 --> 00:45:35.920
So, you know, if anyone wants to connect, I'd be more than happy to um connect with you on LinkedIn.
00:45:36.639 --> 00:45:37.280
Very good.
00:45:37.360 --> 00:45:40.400
We'll share the uh the link to your profile out with the notes too.
00:45:40.559 --> 00:45:41.519
So appreciate it.
00:45:41.840 --> 00:45:43.039
So glad to have you here.
00:45:43.199 --> 00:45:46.639
It's been a terrific conversation, and I'm just I'm I'm lucky to have had it.
00:45:46.719 --> 00:45:48.159
So thank you, Mark, very much.
00:45:48.480 --> 00:45:49.280
Thanks, Billy.
00:45:49.360 --> 00:45:52.880
It's been a pleasure, and hopefully I was able to contribute something.
00:45:53.199 --> 00:45:54.400
Absolutely.
00:45:55.360 --> 00:45:57.760
Thanks for listening to Making More.
00:45:57.920 --> 00:46:01.440
If today's conversation sparks something in you, let's connect.
00:46:01.679 --> 00:46:15.360
You can find me on LinkedIn and threads at coachfisherfpt or by visiting BillyFisher.focalpointcoaching.com to learn more about how I help leaders create clarity, build momentum, and make more of what matters.
00:46:15.599 --> 00:46:18.800
This recording is copyrighted by Engineer Consulting Incorporated.
00:46:18.960 --> 00:46:20.559
Until next time, take care.
00:00:00.239 --> 00:00:09.759
Welcome to Make More, the podcast where high-performing business owners and visionary executives share how they're building more than just bottom lines.
00:00:09.919 --> 00:00:21.679
I'm your host, Billy Fitcher, an engineering leader turned business and executive coach, and I'm guided by a personal mission to help leaders create clarity, build forward momentum, and make more of what matters most.
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Before most alarm clocks go off, my guest today has finished his mantras and meditation and is already in the gym.
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That discipline runs through everything.
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Arriving in this country at 12 years old, rising from junior analyst to CFO, and then reinventing himself in the cybersecurity sector.
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His life's work is becoming the person leaders trust.
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And today he shares how.
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Umar, welcome to Making More.
00:00:50.159 --> 00:00:51.439
I am excited to be here.
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Thanks for having me, Billy.
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And looking forward to an awesome conversation with you.
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It's going to be a good one.
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I loved our intro call a few weeks back.
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And just you're you're such an interesting individual, and your story is one that so many people can benefit from hearing.
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So I'm excited to share it with the audience today.
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Looking forward to it.
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So tell me about maybe the most recent pivot that you've made because you had a career in finance, and then there's a been a recent pivot to the cybersecurity sector.
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So was there was there something that kind of forced you into that leap, or was it just a gradual progression that you saw things going in?
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Somewhere in between, I remember working uh in my office uh back a while ago.
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I'm not gonna date myself, but several several years ago, probably more than a decade ago, I was sitting in my office.
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I got a call from a friend slash colleague slash recruiter, and he said, Hey, um, you know, I have an opening with a large uh company that is looking for such and such.
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You obviously work for a um, it was a data security company at the time, even though you work in finance.
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Uh, let's have a conversation.
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So I said, sure, why not?
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Let's have that conversation.
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Uh prior to that, though, I was actually um, I've always been someone who likes to automate things.
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So even though I worked in finance, um, I got my promotions through automating, reducing hours in the, you know, the what we call the close cycle at the time.
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And so we took a couple of days out of the close cycle by streamlining some of the processes.
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And from there in finance, I continued to try to reduce the amount of time I spend doing work.
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Uh, unfortunately, I just got more work.
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So, with uh, as I was working in IT, I was sort of in the middle of uh some workforce reduction, not workforce reduction, but process uh process time reduction.
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Got the call, uh, kind of explained to him what we were doing, and he said, this is perfect because this is what they're looking for.
00:03:01.360 --> 00:03:10.000
And so one conversation led to the next, and then before you know it, I um pivoted into uh cybersecurity as a a consultant.
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Well, very good.
00:03:12.080 --> 00:03:27.840
And and making making your own space there now, and against such a huge need in this time of the the AI revolution and and what what are businesses doing to get on the right side of that and and be prepared for the changes that come with that.
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Um just yeah, a wild time.
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And I think um hopefully you you have great success in that new field.
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Yeah, I'm actually looking forward to it.
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Been in cyber for uh several years, actually, decade, uh over a decade.
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All right, uh close to 15, uh, 16 years uh within the cybersecurity industry.
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So I've seen um the transition, the waves, um the cycles.
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And so now we're sort of in the middle of uh the AI cycle, you know, understanding what the threats are, how to manage um the threat landscape, you know, given everything that that's afoot um in addition to everything that we were dealing with before.
00:04:09.759 --> 00:04:12.159
So very exciting times.
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How much of it is hype, do you think, versus how much of it is truly transformational uh technology?
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I don't think it's hype.
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I think there's a bit of hype, um, but you know, the substance of it substantively, I don't think we're going to go back uh to where we were prior to artificial intelligence.
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And artificial intelligence has been around for uh several years, if not decades.
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It's just that we got to a point where it was sort of a watershed uh moment.
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It is a watershed moment for us, but you know, I would look at it uh kind of the the the next industrial revolution.
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Think about where we were in the late 90s and the dot-com revolution uh came about.
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Um, you know, look at what Amazon has done to a lot of the small mom, mom and pops, uh, mom and pop shops.
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I think um, you know, people have just become used to, you know, uh, you know, ordering a package and having it being delivered within 24 hours.
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And I think with AI, the leaps and bounds and the um the opportunities are, you know, they're they're they're everywhere.
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And so I don't think people are gonna go back to the way life was prior to 2022.
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So I'm looking forward and I'm excited to see how uh we manage and we we manage the threats, but we also take advantage of the opportunities that are um you know within the AI landscape.
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It feels like a moment where we're going to need to adapt to what this technology and what these tools give us.
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Like it changes things so drastically that you know, I think about education, for example, and and wondering how how education is going to try and um just keep up with the ability to learn so rapidly and to have all of this information, not in a library, not not in a Google search, but just in a conversation with your computer.
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Yeah.
00:06:16.240 --> 00:06:19.199
Um it's I think it's you're absolutely right.
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I remember growing when I grew up, you know, on a dinosaur, but I remember growing up having to learn my uh my my tables.
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So the my square root tables, I could give you, you know, the square root of uh what's the square root of 20 of um, you know, what's 25 squared, what's two squared, what's 16 squared.
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I still have that in my memory.
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Um with the advance of um, you know, computers and uh calculators, I don't need to know that anymore.
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I'm now using I at that point when the calculator was allowed in the classroom, we started using uh different elements of our brain.
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Now I think you know, I remember having Encarta, uh that I don't know if you remember the encyclopedia.
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With Google, that kind of went away.
00:07:03.439 --> 00:07:10.399
So, you know, I I had books, encyclopedia books from A to Z in my um in my in my in my room.
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And now we kind of transitioned from Encarta to Google to Chat GPT to Claude.
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So I think it's just an evolution that um we'll continue to see and grow.
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I I don't think it's um, I wouldn't be afraid.
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I would think my thought is we think about how we manage this technology in a way that does not um you know compromise our ability to think independently, right?
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Those muscles, we don't want those muscles to atrophy.
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That's exactly right.
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And uh just so much is being written about this technology, and I think hopefully um the the just the the voices that that need to rise up are the ones that are talking about how to use it responsibly, how to use it with uh humans at the center of it.
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And you know, I think for that it's it's just gonna be the next thing that advances humanity, right?
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If we use it correctly.
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Right.
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So let's take a trip back.
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Um, I want to talk about where you were raised and and and the kind of life that you lived.
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It was on a farm, if I'm not mistaken, right?
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Yes, grew up on a farm in Jamaica, um, had to, you know, uh feed the pigs.
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Uh we had probably 20 different dogs at any given time.
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Uh we I had to, you know, feed the chickens, we had ducks, we had goats, we had cows.
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Uh we planted um our own dinner.
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Uh so it it's not unusual for me to go go to the farm and harvest some food, bring it to the home, have my mom cook it, you know, uh butcher a cow or chicken.
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Um it was just, you know, uh that's how I remember growing up.
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Going to Kentucky Fried Chicken was sort of a treat.
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A once uh once in the Blue Moon uh treat, we would all get in the car and take a 14-mile drive to uh Kentucky Fried Chicken.
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So a real delicacy, right?
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A real delicacy, yeah.
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Absolutely.
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Oh, and so you were about 12 years old when you made the move to the US, to the Chicago area?
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Yeah.
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So I moved moved to the SROM 12, um, moved in um to a new environment, new people, new values, new foundation.
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Everything was new, you know.
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And one of the things, you know, when you arrive in a new country at 12 years old, you learn something quickly.
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You stop talking, you start watching.
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So a lot of lot of observation.
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How did you earn your place in the new country, because I'm assuming you were still in school at the time, right?
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Just going through like like any other kid.
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Still in school.
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And uh as if if you remember, you know, when you're in middle school or junior high, uh kids tend to be very brutal in their honesty.
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And so I came in, did not speak uh, you know, we speak English in Jamaica, but uh we spoke uh British English, we had a dialect, um, we have our own, I would say, language that we speak.
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And so I spoke a little bit differently.
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I dressed a little bit differently, I uh saw things differently, and so that sort of made me a target um and you know, the butt of many different jokes.
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So I had to uh, you know, earn my strife, so to speak.
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I remember there were times I would uh lock myself in the bathrooms at lunch because I was just afraid to deal with uh some of the you know the things that my uh fellow students would throw at me.
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But yeah, it was very brutal, brutal upbringing, I would say.
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Middle schoolers can be brutal, like just oh my gosh.
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I've got a six-year-old right now, and I'm just at some some point he's gonna be in that and and transitioning to the uh the local high schools, and that's gonna be a big, a big job for him for sure.
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So if you imagine like any of the farm-taught habits from Jamaica, um, any of those that translated well to now your your career in leadership.
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Yeah, I would say, you know, one of the things that um you kind of mentioned at the beginning, um you know, waking up before the alarm goes off.
00:11:28.720 --> 00:11:35.120
One of the things that my dad has always impressed on me is that, you know, never rise after the sun.
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You should never be asleep when the sun comes up.
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And so he's always taught me, and my mom always told me stories.
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We used to get up before the sun, before dawn, and we would go farming, and you know, we were hard workers.
00:11:48.320 --> 00:11:56.960
And so that that that's always been the um the mantra when my mother got upset or she just she was just in a nostalgic state, remembering uh the old days.
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She taught me that, you know, um, always rise early.
00:12:01.519 --> 00:12:08.399
You know, if something needs to, if something needs to get done, do it and don't wait for someone else to to notice or tell you to do it.
00:12:08.480 --> 00:12:17.679
So those are all sort of the farm values that I kind of grew up learning and um just you know implementing in my life.
00:12:17.840 --> 00:12:28.720
And you know, every once in a while I'll hear my mother or my dad in the back of my head telling me something because they've it's just kind of it was a repetitive um mantra for them.
00:12:28.960 --> 00:12:32.720
Do it right or don't do it all, you know, don't wait to be told.
00:12:32.879 --> 00:12:36.480
You know, so it's always been uh sort of the way I do things.
00:12:37.440 --> 00:12:39.279
I love that that's instilled in you now.
00:12:39.360 --> 00:12:48.879
And instill you you find so much um, you know, kind of power that comes with that that early, early rise and and being up before the sun comes up.
00:12:49.120 --> 00:12:52.480
Um I think that's that's just such a a useful thing.
00:12:52.559 --> 00:12:56.080
And I I wish that I could build that discipline in my own life.
00:12:56.159 --> 00:13:15.519
I I sometimes um struggle like I'll try and do master swim practice at 5.30 in the morning, and and there are some mornings where that alarm clock goes off and I just I snooze and I I cheat myself of the opportunity to go and get a workout in early and start my day in that positive way.
00:13:15.679 --> 00:13:17.600
And it's because I lack discipline, right?
00:13:17.759 --> 00:13:20.240
And I need to I need to build those better habits.
00:13:20.399 --> 00:13:23.360
And so thank you for for being an inspiration in that way.
00:13:24.080 --> 00:13:27.519
Yeah, and I think we all have different strengths in terms of discipline, right?
00:13:27.600 --> 00:13:34.000
Uh that's we're we're humans, and so we do the best we can uh with what we're given.
00:13:35.759 --> 00:13:36.720
So good.
00:13:37.120 --> 00:13:41.440
And so you were given uh a place in Chicago, but you didn't stay in Chicago.
00:13:41.600 --> 00:13:44.720
Your your early career in finance took you all over the place.
00:13:44.960 --> 00:13:46.559
Tell me about some of the stops there.
00:13:46.879 --> 00:14:01.279
So yeah, I went, you know, I started out my career um obviously in Chicago, in the Northwest, uh, the North, the north, the North Shore of Chicago, uh large organization, um, household name.
00:14:01.759 --> 00:14:07.360
Uh again, found ways to be very efficient, very effective.
00:14:07.519 --> 00:14:16.879
Um, tried to, you know, sort of in some ways competitive, outdo my peers in some ways, but not in a way that was toxic.
00:14:17.120 --> 00:14:23.279
And so uh two years into my career, I ended up um moving over to Brussels, Belgium.
00:14:23.440 --> 00:14:28.399
I stayed over there for a little bit over a year and a half, um, where I worked.
00:14:28.480 --> 00:14:31.120
Um, that was sort of my first promotion.
00:14:31.600 --> 00:14:43.440
Worked as a uh project controller, uh, managed a lot of the um the finance and the uh accounting functions of a large um the organization's largest project at the time.
00:14:43.600 --> 00:14:46.559
They were doing an uh an IT transformation.
00:14:46.720 --> 00:14:50.799
And so we uh had to work day and night.
00:14:50.960 --> 00:14:57.039
Uh in some cases, we were up at 12 o'clock at night, um, you know, making sure that systems were up and running.
00:14:57.200 --> 00:15:06.080
And even though I wasn't working in uh IT, I had to learn some of the processes, the systems, uh the integration points and things like that.
00:15:06.240 --> 00:15:30.559
And so um spent several waking hours uh just learning um how systems work, learning the culture, of course, but also um, you know, doing my job, which was to make sure that folks were paid on time, expenses were covered, um, budgets were uh being met and things like that.
00:15:34.799 --> 00:15:38.000
And so uh you also spent some time in Germany, is that right?
00:15:38.720 --> 00:15:43.120
Yeah, so uh Germany is also sort of one of my stops.
00:15:43.200 --> 00:15:46.080
Um, worked in Germany for several months.
00:15:46.559 --> 00:15:49.200
Um very interesting country.
00:15:49.600 --> 00:15:57.279
Um the people are very efficient, very kind, uh, but they also have some very um unique laws.
00:15:57.440 --> 00:16:04.559
There's a thing um, you know, and encourage your listeners to look at um or Google Workers' Council in Germany.
00:16:04.720 --> 00:16:12.320
Um they they tend to see things uh somewhat differently than we do in the US when it comes to um employment laws.
00:16:12.480 --> 00:16:23.039
And so um I had some very interesting encounters and very interesting conversations with uh colleagues at the time who were part of what's called the workers' council in Germany.
00:16:23.120 --> 00:16:24.879
But yeah, Germany, great place.
00:16:25.120 --> 00:16:26.559
Um, great work, I think.
00:16:26.879 --> 00:16:31.279
People are very efficient in how they do things and uh learn quite a bit.
00:16:31.519 --> 00:16:36.879
Didn't pick up much on the language, but it was also um it was a very, very tough language.
00:16:37.200 --> 00:16:39.759
But um amazing work, I think.
00:16:41.440 --> 00:16:44.799
And eventually you find your way back to Chicago.
00:16:44.960 --> 00:16:50.559
So what uh what kind of lessons learned did you bring uh on that trip home?
00:16:51.120 --> 00:17:07.039
I think you know, being in a new country, again, you know, coming here to the US from um from Jamaica taught me that, you know, you know, be observant, try to learn, try to absorb before making any big moves.
00:17:07.200 --> 00:17:13.279
And so, you know, for me, growing up on a farm taught me about cause and effects.
00:17:13.440 --> 00:17:20.559
And so when I transitioned uh from Chicago to Europe, um it was the same thing.
00:17:20.720 --> 00:17:23.759
Leadership works in the same way.
00:17:23.920 --> 00:17:35.279
Um, you have to be observant, you have to think about the ramification of your actions, how your interactions with people, and moving into a new environment, new culture, new style, new ways of thinking.
00:17:35.519 --> 00:17:42.160
Um, learned, uh taught me to be more patient, to be more thoughtful, to be more collaborative.
00:17:42.240 --> 00:17:46.480
Um, my way isn't always the right way, even though sometimes I think it is.
00:17:46.720 --> 00:17:58.880
Um I I have I learned that um I have to be more patient and thoughtful and accommodating because my approach isn't always um uh the best approach.
00:18:01.839 --> 00:18:05.759
But I think a lot of times as leaders, we have this kind of burden, right?
00:18:05.839 --> 00:18:09.359
Where people do look to us for the best ideas.
00:18:09.519 --> 00:18:23.119
And I think that's kind of uh almost an unnecessary pressure that leaders put on themselves because so oftentimes it it's the responsibility of the leader to bring about the best ideas from the team.
00:18:23.279 --> 00:18:30.640
Um, because I think, at least in my experience, you know, you're not going to be um always the the smartest person in the room.
00:18:30.720 --> 00:18:37.200
If you're if you're doing it right, you're hiring people that are more talented than you are to grow and and become your successor.
00:18:37.359 --> 00:18:52.960
So um I think just yeah, it was about, you know, why do leaders put that pressure on themselves when so often they could just turn to their team and kind of get the the same the same outcome uh by just raising those thoughts and ideas up.
00:18:54.240 --> 00:18:55.279
You're absolutely right.
00:18:55.440 --> 00:19:02.400
I think a lot of times, you know, when you're in a position of leadership, you feel as if the microscope, uh, you know, you're under the spotlight.
00:19:02.559 --> 00:19:04.240
And so people are watching you.
00:19:04.400 --> 00:19:11.519
And so uh sometimes you get into a performative mode where, you know, I have to perform, I have to prove myself.
00:19:11.680 --> 00:19:13.519
They're gonna think I'm not worth being here.
00:19:13.680 --> 00:19:18.720
And so a lot of times leaders tend to um, and I think it's not uncommon.
00:19:18.799 --> 00:19:26.640
I've done it, you're in a position where you just feel that you have to, you know, perform to ensure that people trust you.
00:19:26.880 --> 00:19:40.960
But, you know, on that same thread, one of the things that I've learned is that, you know, your character speaks, your character precedes you, and your character is, you know, who you become when nobody is measuring your performance, no one is watching you, you know, you're not on the spotlight.
00:19:41.039 --> 00:19:53.359
And I think that's far more important uh than the pressure we put on ourselves as leaders in terms of um having to live up to expectations of others or what we think others may expect from us.
00:19:55.920 --> 00:20:01.920
So back in Chicago now, is is this where you take on the CFO role for the first time?
00:20:02.880 --> 00:20:06.319
So, yes, back in Chicago, um came back.
00:20:06.400 --> 00:20:09.039
I worked as a consultant for several years.
00:20:09.200 --> 00:20:14.960
Um, in some cases, I was uh worked as an interim uh interim CFO.
00:20:15.519 --> 00:20:20.079
Um but at that time we would it was just called it was just called a consultant.
00:20:20.240 --> 00:20:23.839
So um a lot of hard lessons learned.
00:20:24.000 --> 00:20:34.400
Uh but came back in Chicago and I at that point I was still in finance, um worked uh because interestingly, as I was in Europe, I got laid off.
00:20:34.480 --> 00:20:35.359
And so I got laid off.
00:20:35.440 --> 00:20:39.200
I was part of a uh the team that was laying folks off.
00:20:39.359 --> 00:20:41.519
Then it came to my turn, then I was laid off.
00:20:41.759 --> 00:20:51.359
And so came back and I uh lived, uh worked, worked at um several um large organizations, but in a consultative capacity.
00:20:51.519 --> 00:20:58.319
And so in some cases, I was close to the CEO, close to the CFO, but still not a full-time role.
00:20:58.559 --> 00:21:11.359
Um, I think several years into that, I then transitioned into becoming uh sort of the mini CFO for at the time it was Singapore, Japan, and Australia.
00:21:11.519 --> 00:21:24.160
So a lot of um overseas uh uh foreign and um Asian tax laws and requirements and regulations that I had to learn uh on the fly.
00:21:24.319 --> 00:21:29.839
And so that was um very interesting, very interesting um time.
00:21:30.400 --> 00:21:36.160
I also was the what we call the auditor for our European entity.
00:21:36.559 --> 00:21:46.079
And so um my counterpart or the person who preceded me died maybe five days before I started.
00:21:46.319 --> 00:21:48.720
My boss called and said, Hey, we need you to start.
00:21:48.799 --> 00:21:49.759
Can you start earlier?
00:21:49.920 --> 00:21:51.359
So uh started.
00:21:51.680 --> 00:22:01.759
Um, unfortunately, or you know, you know, his demise obviously, you know, um that was a very sad time for the team and for the Company and for his family.
00:22:02.079 --> 00:22:04.799
But you know, it this was around October.
00:22:04.880 --> 00:22:21.920
And so we were coming up on the year and close, which means, you know, you sort of summarize all of the activities for the organization at the end of the year to provide to investors and to um uh the uh the the local government uh and the financial authorities.
00:22:22.160 --> 00:22:42.000
And so all his work was in French, and so I had to not only did I have to sort of figure out French, there wasn't the Google Translate at the time, uh, I had to figure it out and uh close the month uh and then obviously close the year provided uh you know management as well as statutory reporting.
00:22:42.079 --> 00:22:44.079
So that was very interesting time.
00:22:44.160 --> 00:22:49.119
I had to learn very fast in my first my first two or three weeks.
00:22:49.759 --> 00:22:50.400
Wow.
00:22:50.799 --> 00:22:54.480
No uh no opportunities for transition there, right?
00:22:54.559 --> 00:23:00.960
Where you can get you know the predecessors' notes and walk through the processes and just oh, here it is.
00:23:01.119 --> 00:23:02.000
Figure it out.
00:23:02.240 --> 00:23:02.720
Yep.
00:23:03.119 --> 00:23:03.759
Wow.
00:23:04.319 --> 00:23:10.880
And it sounded like I think this was probably before fractional roles really became so popular.
00:23:11.039 --> 00:23:21.200
You see fractional leaders all over the place today, but I think you know, you were kind of a little bit ahead of where that became commonplace in in maybe um your industry.
00:23:21.359 --> 00:23:30.559
And so um stepping into those roles in a consultant way and and helping just I think get you that next opportunity.
00:23:31.920 --> 00:23:36.799
Yeah, I think a lot of my colleagues and I um who you know we're still friends today.
00:23:36.960 --> 00:23:46.880
We sometimes look back uh and say, yeah, you know, we were doing a lot of things before that um we didn't know what it was, but today this is what it's called, you know?
00:23:47.039 --> 00:23:49.200
So yeah.
00:23:49.920 --> 00:23:55.680
So now officially uh about 10 years ago, the pivot to the cybersecurity space.
00:23:56.000 --> 00:24:18.720
So um again, you talked a little bit about it at the uh the start of this conversation, but but what uh what what did a finance leader bring to the table that maybe other cybersecurity leaders aren't seeing, they aren't picking up on I think, you know, what I've always said is, you know, numbers tell you what happened, relationships tell you why.
00:24:18.880 --> 00:24:25.440
And regardless if you're you're in finance or in uh cybersecurity, that's always the case.
00:24:25.599 --> 00:24:43.839
I think um one of the things, and I I still talk to people about this today, is that um people who work in cyber tend to be very technical, they tend to be very focused, they think about, you know, um they're very binary in terms of it's this or that, the ones and zeros.
00:24:44.079 --> 00:24:53.839
And a lot of times um we, as folks who work in cyber, we see things from a very siloed perspective, a very narrow perspective.
00:24:54.079 --> 00:24:57.200
Um, there's a risk, let's fix the risk and move on.
00:24:57.440 --> 00:25:20.960
And so what the industry is finding out now is that we have to sort of take a step back and put on a different set of lens that allows us to see uh the risk through the eyes of a business leader, specifically um other you know, C-suite executives, whether it's a CEO, CFO, CMO, CRO, um, whomever.
00:25:21.359 --> 00:25:37.759
And so I think the advantage or the, yeah, the advantage I say I have as a uh someone who's worked in finance, I sometimes look at the financial implications or the financial ramification of a decision.
00:25:38.079 --> 00:25:45.440
I've always risk is risk, whether it's cyber risk, financial risk, reputational risk, operational risk, risk is risk.
00:25:45.519 --> 00:26:03.519
It's a threat to the business that could potentially, you know, if that risk is realized, um, could cause harm or could um, you know, negatively impact how the business carry out its remit in order to, you know, um increase the bottom line or the top line.
00:26:03.759 --> 00:26:25.359
And so having that CFO lens always has always uh given me a more nuanced view of how to manage and how to dissect, how to understand and implement um solutions, remediation that are um relevant to the risk as well as the business.
00:26:25.599 --> 00:26:27.680
So that's always been the case.
00:26:27.759 --> 00:26:31.440
I've talked to many uh chief information security officers.
00:26:31.519 --> 00:26:42.480
In some cases, we've sat, we've helped, uh I've helped them put their budgets together because again, the budget is what helps you carry out your remit.
00:26:42.640 --> 00:26:44.640
If you don't have a budget, you're limited.
00:26:44.799 --> 00:27:02.240
And so uh framing uh how you're going to use that budget um allows you to, you know, um, or prevents you from getting the budget you need to carry out the remit in terms of getting what you need to get done to support the business.
00:27:04.799 --> 00:27:12.000
So are you all working in some fractional and interim executive roles today with with the consulting work that you're doing?
00:27:12.480 --> 00:27:18.160
Yes, I just finished up a role as a believe it or not, I worked for a small non-for-profit organization.
00:27:18.400 --> 00:27:18.720
Nice.
00:27:19.039 --> 00:27:23.200
Um we were um, you know, it's all about mental health.
00:27:23.279 --> 00:27:26.559
So their space was the you know mental health, healthcare.
00:27:26.720 --> 00:27:31.200
And so worked for six months as their interim executive director.
00:27:31.519 --> 00:27:34.880
Um and just finished that up.
00:27:35.119 --> 00:27:36.000
Great organization.
00:27:36.160 --> 00:27:39.039
The board was very supportive, staff was very supportive.
00:27:39.200 --> 00:27:49.119
Uh, had an opportunity to kind of set the foundation um without um, you know, disrupting how you know they they they did things.
00:27:49.200 --> 00:28:01.440
So kind of um level setting, but also ensuring that the things that needed to be done on a day-to-day basis was not um were not kind of um missed.
00:28:01.599 --> 00:28:17.359
Also keeping staff engaged, keeping staff motivated, ensuring that we had a budget, uh communicating with the board, uh communicating with stakeholders and funders and donors uh in a way that allowed us to, you know, um move, live on.
00:28:17.519 --> 00:28:25.839
If if you've if you've worked for non-for-profit, you understand that non-for-profit means um exactly non-for-profit.
00:28:25.920 --> 00:28:29.839
We don't operate in an environment where we're going after a lot of money.
00:28:30.000 --> 00:28:34.960
However, we do need the money in order to run the programs to, you know, effect change.
00:28:35.200 --> 00:28:38.960
So it was a awesome, um, awesome experience.
00:28:39.119 --> 00:28:56.400
I was also working in at this parallel in parallel, working with a um several several startups in terms of you know doing advisory work, go-to-market strategy, ensuring that they have the appropriate uh amount of resources to um to meet market demand.
00:28:56.640 --> 00:28:58.559
So very exciting times.
00:28:58.880 --> 00:28:59.359
Mm-hmm.
00:29:00.079 --> 00:29:02.079
And you're exactly right about nonprofits.
00:29:02.160 --> 00:29:15.119
I think what what the biggest um difference that I saw going from like large corporation um to nonprofit sector was just the the lack of resources, right?
00:29:15.200 --> 00:29:21.440
The lack of just they don't they don't have anything in abundance or extra of anything.
00:29:21.519 --> 00:29:29.839
It's just they are bare bones working from just the uh the very small staff that is there passionately doing the work.
00:29:29.920 --> 00:29:34.079
And so um they oftentimes don't even know what they don't have.
00:29:34.720 --> 00:29:35.680
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:29:35.839 --> 00:29:46.960
And I've uh you know spent probably 30 years in non-for-profit, and you know, there's a lot of times resources is a bottleneck.
00:29:47.039 --> 00:29:51.200
Sometimes you'll have um people who go after resources in the wrong way.
00:29:51.359 --> 00:30:08.400
I've seen where um, you know, uh organization leadership in the organization um do things that are not necessarily um in compliance with uh regulators, with regulators' expectation, and sometimes find themselves in a lot of trouble.
00:30:08.559 --> 00:30:27.680
Um, you know, being in the non-for-profit space, you have to be charismatic, you have to be articulate, you have to be uh someone who's dynamic, but there's also the foundational aspects of it that requires um that you stay within the boundaries of the laws, the legal systems, and uh you protect your reputation, right?
00:30:27.759 --> 00:30:29.440
That's a big thing with non-for-profits.
00:30:29.759 --> 00:30:37.039
So it's it's um it's a lot of fun, but we have to ensure that we're working within the confines and the parameters of the law.
00:30:38.559 --> 00:30:39.359
So good.
00:30:40.079 --> 00:30:44.559
Before we get too far, I want to talk about your 4 15 a.m.
00:30:44.640 --> 00:30:45.359
operating system.
00:30:45.839 --> 00:30:48.240
Can you can you walk us through the ritual?
00:30:48.720 --> 00:30:52.240
Take us through your morning, morning process.
00:30:52.799 --> 00:30:56.960
But yeah, I usually wake up um so I set my alarm for 4 20.
00:30:57.039 --> 00:31:02.240
And for some reason I I'll get up like five minutes or two minutes or three minutes or 10 minutes before my alarm.
00:31:02.319 --> 00:31:02.960
Very good.
00:31:03.119 --> 00:31:03.680
Body's ready.
00:31:03.759 --> 00:31:04.079
Just go.
00:31:04.960 --> 00:31:13.599
Yeah, so wake up and um I don't want to get too religious because this is not a religious show, but I I go through a set of mantras.
00:31:13.680 --> 00:31:15.359
I thank God for waking up.
00:31:15.599 --> 00:31:20.960
Um, and then, you know, the first thing I do is I head to the bathroom, start brushing my teeth.
00:31:21.039 --> 00:31:23.440
I have sort of a mantra for brushing my teeth.
00:31:23.680 --> 00:31:40.160
I take a shower, there's a mantra for that, putting my clothes on, and so uh transition out of the bathroom, if you will, into uh in front of my um, so I have a designated space in my house where I directly go, I sit and I kind of reflect.
00:31:40.480 --> 00:31:51.839
Um uh I pray, uh, I continue to do my mantra, and that probably the whole circuit takes me maybe about this is from 420 and by 445.
00:31:52.079 --> 00:31:54.240
So it's about 25 to 30 minutes.
00:31:54.319 --> 00:31:55.920
Um, and then I head out.
00:31:56.160 --> 00:32:02.240
I'm um, I go, I do sort of a uh devotional congregational devotion.
00:32:02.400 --> 00:32:15.200
And then from there I head straight to the gym where I stay there from maybe about 5:15, 5:30 until nine o'clock, I would say sometimes eight o'clock hours.
00:32:15.440 --> 00:32:26.480
And uh, you know, I sometimes I'll have calls in between, but you know, this the running, the stretching, the dynamic lifting, and things like that enables me to kind of stay focused throughout the day.
00:32:26.640 --> 00:32:31.680
If I don't get that done, it's like I don't feel as if um I've accomplished anything.
00:32:31.839 --> 00:32:33.759
So it's part of my ritual.
00:32:34.079 --> 00:32:36.480
So both cardio and lifting then, yes?
00:32:36.799 --> 00:32:42.319
Little bit of, yep, a little bit of cardiovascular work and some um anabolic uh work as well.
00:32:42.640 --> 00:32:42.960
Okay.
00:32:43.519 --> 00:32:44.319
Very good.
00:32:44.799 --> 00:32:45.920
Do you swim?
00:32:49.440 --> 00:32:52.640
I'm embarrassed to say I I cannot, I'm not a very good swimmer.
00:32:52.720 --> 00:32:54.640
I remember swim lessons.
00:32:54.799 --> 00:32:59.279
My uh the swim instructor said, let's just teach you not to drown, right?
00:32:59.440 --> 00:33:08.000
Because uh so heavy I couldn't stay buoyant and but no, I I I I do, you know, there's a cold, cold plunge.
00:33:08.079 --> 00:33:10.480
I go on the cold plunge, I enjoy the pool.
00:33:10.799 --> 00:33:14.160
Uh, but uh the swimming is not a part of my routine.
00:33:14.480 --> 00:33:16.240
That's not for you, like you talked about.
00:33:16.319 --> 00:33:18.240
Everybody's got their own way of discipline.
00:33:18.319 --> 00:33:19.680
So that's perfect.
00:33:20.000 --> 00:33:20.319
Oh.
00:33:21.039 --> 00:33:30.559
And so imagine now um you're you're bringing this discipline from the morning rituals and the gym time into leadership.
00:33:30.880 --> 00:33:35.359
What what routines have you helped protect in the office?
00:33:36.960 --> 00:33:45.519
Um, I think, you know, what I say about my morning routine is, you know, the morning is about accomplishing more.
00:33:45.839 --> 00:33:48.000
It's not just about accomplishing more.
00:33:48.240 --> 00:33:54.400
It's about becoming the person I want to be before this, before you know the world starts making demands from me.
00:33:54.640 --> 00:34:04.079
I think um one of the things that I've learned is that, you know, what you know, is the motivation.
00:34:04.240 --> 00:34:12.480
So a lot of times, you know, I'm faced with the on the heavy days, I'm faced with, okay, I have to sit under this bench or I have to go under the squat rack.
00:34:12.880 --> 00:34:15.519
And I don't want to do it.
00:34:16.320 --> 00:34:23.760
Uh, but I, you know, uh there's a I have a guy in the gym, he has a shirt that says, don't let the hard days win.
00:34:24.159 --> 00:34:29.760
And every day I see it, um, I it I smile because I understand exactly what that means.
00:34:29.920 --> 00:35:11.280
And I think how that for me, how that translates into my um, into, you know, from I would say the gym to the office is a lot of times you're faced with um challenges or opportunities or an uphill battle that, you know, you have to remain where that requires you to remain calm under pressure, it requires you to maintain um a certain decorum, a certain uh level of just being level-headed and being able to understand the problem for what it is, not necessarily, you know, personalize it or see it as um a slight, but to see it as an opportunity to collaborate with each other.
00:35:11.360 --> 00:35:18.079
Because again, sometimes we don't necessarily understand uh the bigger picture because we're looking at just a part of it.
00:35:18.239 --> 00:35:31.920
And so um I may so to bring this to a close on a hard day, I may be struggling with just doing, you know, 10 10 reps of my last set.
00:35:32.480 --> 00:35:42.719
Um, but that could be that could be the the set that allows me to live a year longer because something happened.
00:35:42.960 --> 00:35:52.880
Now, taking that to the office, uh, I may be faced with a challenge or a tough, tough, um, a tough uh uh tough challenge in front of me.
00:35:53.119 --> 00:36:04.480
And pushing it through, staying through, um, staying disciplined, seeing it through, not only will I learn the lessons, but in some cases I uh accomplish what I set out to accomplish.
00:36:04.800 --> 00:36:14.719
So uh, you know, going back to the waking up early, I don't wake up early because I enjoy the mornings, I wake up early because I enjoy who I become.
00:36:14.960 --> 00:36:20.880
So sometimes the challenge is it defines you, it uh allows you to be stronger.
00:36:21.119 --> 00:36:30.639
You may lose the battle, but from you know, and I hate to use um uh that type of analogy, but you sometimes you win the bigger picture.
00:36:30.719 --> 00:36:31.679
So yeah.
00:36:31.920 --> 00:36:42.000
And I think this will this will parlay nicely into now, asking advice for leaders who admire your routine, but maybe say they don't have the time for it.
00:36:43.599 --> 00:36:45.199
Yeah, you know, you make the time.
00:36:45.360 --> 00:36:48.159
You make the time for what's uh for what's important.
00:36:48.480 --> 00:37:03.360
Um, and I, you know, this is one of the things I tell my kids, um, you know, things that you're living the you're living decisions that you've made several weeks or months and probably years ago.
00:37:03.599 --> 00:37:12.639
So the decisions you make today have a significant impact on what your life trajectory uh will be years or decades from now.
00:37:12.960 --> 00:37:22.800
So, you know, make the time for the things that are important to you and prioritize, ensure that you're doing what is right, even though it's hard sometimes.
00:37:26.239 --> 00:37:32.960
And Umar, I want to give you a chance to talk about uh something that I know was uh a great impact uh on your life.
00:37:33.119 --> 00:37:34.559
It was uh a battle with cancer.
00:37:34.639 --> 00:37:40.239
So can you share with the audience a little bit about what what that journey was like and and where you're at with it now?
00:37:41.199 --> 00:37:48.880
It's very interesting because it's it's exactly almost a year ago, maybe a week from a year ago, that I um I had my surgery and felt.
00:37:49.199 --> 00:37:54.000
One of the things that I would say is, you know, cancer didn't teach me how valuable life is.
00:37:54.159 --> 00:37:57.119
It reminded me how valuable life is.
00:37:57.360 --> 00:38:06.639
And so um, you know, at a very, I would say last year, 2025, was a very challenging uh year for me.
00:38:06.960 --> 00:38:12.800
Um and you know, like I said, cancer, it didn't really teach me, it just reminded me.
00:38:13.039 --> 00:38:15.039
It changed the question I asked myself.
00:38:15.199 --> 00:38:19.119
Instead of, you know, I'll ask myself, how much can I accomplish?
00:38:19.360 --> 00:38:22.880
I started to ask, what will matter?
00:38:23.440 --> 00:38:29.039
Um, you know, I've realized success, I realize, you know, success.
00:38:29.280 --> 00:38:33.199
Uh let me put this in a very succinct way.
00:38:33.360 --> 00:38:37.360
I've realized success that isn't shared eventually becomes empty.
00:38:37.519 --> 00:38:48.800
And so whether it's with my family, my colleagues, my friends, or people that I I encounter, that's one of the things that I would say, you know, um, that I've learned over the last year.
00:38:48.960 --> 00:38:50.960
And I'm still learning.
00:38:51.199 --> 00:39:02.000
I'm I still have my uh struggles, but I'm really um, I really appreciate the opportunity of being uh a cancer survivor.
00:39:02.159 --> 00:39:07.519
Um I am a part of another group called the Reluctant Brotherhood, who uh, you know, I work.
00:39:07.679 --> 00:39:22.639
One of the things we talked about my morning routine, one of the things I intend or the intentions I have on a daily basis is to support others who may be struggling, whether it's with cancer or just something in life that a hill that they have to climb.
00:39:22.719 --> 00:39:30.719
I want to be there to support them, to push them when it gets when they get tired, or to give them a glass of water to say, you know, encourage them to keep going.
00:39:31.039 --> 00:39:46.159
So I sort of went off there, but I don't know if I answered the question, but that's really what I've um over time um I've learned the value of life, the value of relationship, and the importance of you know staying positive.
00:39:47.199 --> 00:39:52.639
And I think you also flipped it, you know, you went very philanthropic with your journey.
00:39:52.719 --> 00:40:02.400
And so you you made it not about yourself, but about helping others now and helping helping others, maybe not with cancer necessarily, but just with anything they are going through.
00:40:02.639 --> 00:40:06.159
So what has that what has that mentoring been like for you?
00:40:06.320 --> 00:40:12.559
And and is it is it leaning more towards people in professional roles or just in in life in general?
00:40:12.960 --> 00:40:23.840
I think in life in general, obviously, you know, we talked about the um how the technology and the workforce, um, those are really have changed.
00:40:23.920 --> 00:40:32.480
And a lot of what I'm experiencing is I have a lot of friends, a lot of colleagues, a lot of people that I meet who are struggling with just finding a new job.
00:40:32.719 --> 00:40:46.719
And so I think um what I've learned, you know, through my journey is that, you know, sometimes you just have to keep going, even when you don't feel like it, when you're tired, you start questioning your ability.
00:40:47.280 --> 00:40:55.199
Um, you know, you start developing um negative thoughts, right?
00:40:55.519 --> 00:41:00.400
Uh it I think that's that's what a lot of folks are struggling with.
00:41:00.559 --> 00:41:04.239
So I tell people all the time, I said, you know, don't try to impress others.
00:41:04.320 --> 00:41:08.239
Stop trying to impress people, start trying to become useful.
00:41:08.400 --> 00:41:13.199
You know, use people, uh useful people become trusted.
00:41:13.360 --> 00:41:19.039
And so, you know, trusted people become leaders and leaders create opportunities.
00:41:19.199 --> 00:41:30.000
And so even though you may be in a position where you cannot, you're not able to earn a paycheck today, you know, stay focused, find other ways.
00:41:30.079 --> 00:41:42.079
Don't measure your success through the number of zeros that that that are in your bank account, but measure it through how you are able to make a positive impact in other people's lives.
00:41:42.559 --> 00:41:53.920
And so even with mentoring or coaching, I think um I try to create other coaches and other mentors so that they can be of benefit to others.
00:41:54.079 --> 00:42:14.639
You know, for me, the greatest return on investment I've seen is believing in someone before they believe in themselves and empowering them to get to a point where they can um empower and encourage and coach and mentor and teach others to be right that version of themselves that they may not have been aware of.
00:42:16.159 --> 00:42:16.800
So good.
00:42:17.039 --> 00:42:31.440
That that idea of being valuable and the fact that if you can become valuable to others, um, you have a platform to grow with and and to teach others and make them valuable in the same way.
00:42:32.480 --> 00:42:33.840
Absolutely.
00:42:34.239 --> 00:42:39.440
So I know you talked about your son was visiting a university when we first spoke.
00:42:39.599 --> 00:42:48.079
So I wonder if there is maybe one principle that you hope your son carries into their young career as they begin their college journey.
00:42:48.880 --> 00:42:55.039
Yeah, you know, for for him, um, and he's actually, we had he had a uh he's he is at a game right now.
00:42:55.119 --> 00:42:57.360
And he just he just left.
00:42:57.440 --> 00:43:03.039
But I, you know, another thing I say, you know, more than anything, I hope he becomes someone people can trust.
00:43:03.280 --> 00:43:19.039
Um, besides the, you know, everything that's going on, um, talent opens the door, but your character determines whether the door stays open or whether um you're able to become successful and gain a seat at the table uh once you get into the door.
00:43:19.119 --> 00:43:22.079
So I think for me, that's what I hope for him.
00:43:24.320 --> 00:43:25.039
Perfect.
00:43:25.760 --> 00:43:30.960
And now we've reached the title question of the podcast fill in the blank.
00:43:31.440 --> 00:43:38.079
Making more blank is most important to you at this point in your life and career.
00:43:40.400 --> 00:43:43.519
Again, I you know, I would say making more trust.
00:43:43.840 --> 00:43:48.239
You know, everything meaningful in my career has come from trust.
00:43:48.400 --> 00:43:55.440
And I think trust, you know, again, I say it creates opportunities, trust it creates a partnership, and trust creates leadership.
00:43:55.840 --> 00:43:58.639
Trust um creates influence.
00:43:59.360 --> 00:44:08.800
If I leave if I can leave behind more than more trust than I found, then I think I'll consider my career successful.
00:44:09.039 --> 00:44:41.760
Um that would be something that I would um be happy with, you know, increasing the trust, um, ensuring that folks are um in an environment where they have psychological oxygen, they can thrive, they can grow, and they can um help others and be a benefit, uh not just to themselves and the people around them, but also their community and extend to the larger um the globe, so to speak.
00:44:44.000 --> 00:44:47.840
Um more where can people find out more about you and what you're doing?
00:44:48.480 --> 00:44:55.519
Uh uh my social media uh you know of choice is LinkedIn.
00:44:55.679 --> 00:45:00.480
I do a lot of work on uh LinkedIn, I make a lot of posts, I make a lot of connections.
00:45:00.639 --> 00:45:05.760
Um every once in a while I have uh what I call a 30 for 30.
00:45:05.840 --> 00:45:12.239
So for 30 days I'll um mentor or coach folks or do mock interviews for people who are looking for jobs.
00:45:12.320 --> 00:45:16.320
So I pick 30 people, they get 30 minutes uh for 30 days.
00:45:16.639 --> 00:45:20.079
And so I usually um I'm usually on LinkedIn.
00:45:20.239 --> 00:45:22.320
Um I'm very responsive on LinkedIn.
00:45:22.400 --> 00:45:29.679
I'm actually more responsive on LinkedIn sometimes than I am with my um, you know, with a text message or an email.
00:45:29.920 --> 00:45:35.920
So, you know, if anyone wants to connect, I'd be more than happy to um connect with you on LinkedIn.
00:45:36.639 --> 00:45:37.280
Very good.
00:45:37.360 --> 00:45:40.400
We'll share the uh the link to your profile out with the notes too.
00:45:40.559 --> 00:45:41.519
So appreciate it.
00:45:41.840 --> 00:45:43.039
So glad to have you here.
00:45:43.199 --> 00:45:46.639
It's been a terrific conversation, and I'm just I'm I'm lucky to have had it.
00:45:46.719 --> 00:45:48.159
So thank you, Mark, very much.
00:45:48.480 --> 00:45:49.280
Thanks, Billy.
00:45:49.360 --> 00:45:52.880
It's been a pleasure, and hopefully I was able to contribute something.
00:45:53.199 --> 00:45:54.400
Absolutely.
00:45:55.360 --> 00:45:57.760
Thanks for listening to Making More.
00:45:57.920 --> 00:46:01.440
If today's conversation sparks something in you, let's connect.
00:46:01.679 --> 00:46:15.360
You can find me on LinkedIn and threads at coachfisherfpt or by visiting BillyFisher.focalpointcoaching.com to learn more about how I help leaders create clarity, build momentum, and make more of what matters.
00:46:15.599 --> 00:46:18.800
This recording is copyrighted by Engineer Consulting Incorporated.
00:46:18.960 --> 00:46:20.559
Until next time, take care.
