Jeremy Smith: Hey, what's up, everybody? This is Jeremy Smith with the Making Disciples podcast. I got the one, the only Vic Green joining us as well. Like always, Vic is always a part of this. I'm actually the one in and out. So I'm introducing it as if I'm the one always here. That's right. It it feels like home, Vic. Glad to, I'm glad to be back today.
Vick Green: I love I love how comfortable you are in that sea. You know, glad to have Vic back with us, in s for another episode. True, that's true. We vacations, man. We we both just come back from vacation. It feels good to finally be back. I think we were thirty minutes late to starting this after we just tried to catch up on everything.
Jeremy Smith: So today That's right, you gotta catch up. Blue Ridge Mountains for me. I love the Blue Ridge Mountains. How about for you?
Vick Green: I just got back from the beach and then headed to Hot Springs, Arkansas in a couple of weeks with the family. So yeah, yeah, it's gonna be fun.
Jeremy Smith: Okay. All right. You'll have to tell us which one's better. The beach or Hot Springs, Arkansas.
Vick Green: the the the beach. But Hot Springs, Arkansas will be fun with the peop with my whole family.
Jeremy Smith: No offense to Hot Spr yeah, no offense to Hot Springs, Arkansas. today we're recording is the US Belgium game. Balogun is back. We're gonna date it a little bit, but I can't let us go into this podcast without a prediction, which everybody will know how bad off we were or how right on we were.
Vick Green: That's right. Mm. It's gonna be disappointing if we both predict a win and then they lose. It's people gonna be like, Well, this episode stinks.
Jeremy Smith: No. We're not speaking that evil into this, okay? Yeah, that's not allowed. Okay, Vic, real quick US Belgium prediction.
Vick Green: going three two.
Jeremy Smith: Okay. I'm going three one US. I'm I'm confident. I'm confident. Yeah, yeah. I I think we got a little edge with this Balogun thing. I I don't know if you yeah, I think we're good. So
Vick Green: Ooh, I almost went three one, but I went three two. So I like yours though. Come on. Come on, USA. I like it. I like it. Dude Donald Trump's approval ratings have to go back up after after this. Any anyway.
Jeremy Smith: Maybe not across the world. Actually, that's what we're talking about today. Donald Trump's approval rating. No. we're gonna move up the vision plan today a little bit and go to I what I think is my favorite part of the vision plan, or at least the part that most directly answered some of the questions that I have. We're gonna talk about
Vick Green: There it is.
Jeremy Smith: What it means to have a dream disciple. that's part of the foundation of the vision plan. And I think the foundation of what it means to be a disciple make a movement. So as we talk about vision plan and dream disciple, Vic, what is a dream disciple? Because I think that's a brand new term for for people. What is a dream disciple and why do churches need one?
Vick Green: Yeah. So the Dream Disciple was very much, I mean, we we've been talking about this for years in replicate. It's the idea of like, man, if you if you don't know what you're aiming at, you'll miss it every time kind of idea. So it's it's really that principle. And the Dream Disciple, to put it in a sense, is it's a vivid picture of personal transformation that tells you when you're successful. And so it is this vivid picture. And so we're trying to paint a picture of our people. This is a really a vision piece for you as a ministry leader and of personal transformation. So not what are they active doing, but who are they becoming? And ultimately, this is the goal. This is what we're targeting. We're not looking just to make converts, we're looking to make disciples, right? We're not just counting the people that are in our church, but we're weighing them. And so that's what the dream disciple is. Here's what I find with the Dream Disciple is that this actually is, it's usually missing in churches. And it is one of those things that both the visionary and the strategists can both say, we need that. And so I think that's why it's such a like it's such a thing that that churches gravitate towards because visionaries look and say, we have a collective vision, but I could see how we need to make it personal. And a strategist can look and say, okay, so if we don't know the disciples were developing, how are we gonna know about all of our ministry environments if they're being effective or not? And so this conversation is one that I think both the lead pastor and the discipleship pastor can like both get around the table and be like, yes, like we need this.
Jeremy Smith: Yeah, it and it feels like such a no duh when you get into it. Like yeah, yeah. Like how in the world did I grow up in church and not have and hear about disciple making and all this stuff and what we should be doing. And no one ever really like laid out what is a disciple for me. I never learned it in seminary. and maybe it's because Jesus doesn't give us a super clear definition.
Vick Green: A no duh. Is it? It's good.
Jeremy Smith: Or picture, vivid picture, which is part of the what I love about what you just said. It's not just a definition, and I know we're about to get to that. It's a it's a vivid picture, it's a vision piece. That's a that I I don't know if you picked up on that listening to this, but the vision piece of this is a critical w is critical to understanding what this is all about. It it's not just a functional, it's it's something that gives a picture to our people of who we're becoming in the image of Christ. Which is holiness. But like how how Okay.
Vick Green: Yeah. Yeah. K let's let's jump there real quick. That that idea because I know I think it's a question we're gonna answer in a little bit, but that idea of the difference between a vivid picture versus a definition. I think a lot of people talk about that with like a disciple and they will we have our definition or like here's what it is theologically. That's not what this is. I think that disciple definition, it's a good starting line, but it's a poor finish line. Because ultimately what we're trying to do is cast vision with this. This is ultimately who you want your people to become. And I think sometimes most of the time that like churches don't have anything. Or sometimes they do, but it's like in a Word document that was given to staff and put on a shelf and has never been used again. And and ultimately what we have to do, this is a picture of transformation. And so like when we think about our vision plan, it's
Jeremy Smith: I love you.
Vick Green: Not the information level, it's the motivation level. It's what stirs our heart and how do we give our people a picture of the future? And so I think one of the things that we've got to do, every person has their own picture in their mind of what a disciple is or what a follower of Jesus is. And they've been discipled into it based off their past experiences. And so if you come into church and all you've experienced is just coming on Sundays or getting in a small group or Maybe, you know, you grew up in a place where the measure of maturity always was information, not application. Or, you know, I know s of of my dad, a lot of times he he thinks about his faith more being per private when really it means it's more meant to be personal. And so he's had to like really okay, no, I need to share my faith and why I believe what I believe. All of our people have these experiences, have these pictures of what a disciple is until we give them vision. Of no, there's a better way until we help them see the picture of what transformation looks like that actually hits at the heart level. Our people will continue to have their own picture in mind and continue to go that direction. So I think the disciple definition is really important. Like I kind of think of the your definition of a disciple, think of it like sermon prep. You should do sermon prep, you should bring in all the facts, make sure you're exegeting scripture correctly. And there's a second layer where you move from sermon prep to sermon delivery, though where you hit your you where you get your lines, where you summarize it well, where you say it in a compelling way. That's what the dream disciple is. It's building upon the sermon prep of what is a disciple in scripture. And it's moving to say, okay, how do I cast that in a way that's compelling for our people?
Jeremy Smith: How do you talk to people? This is one of the main objections I get when I've talked when I've talked about this in bigger groups. They're like, Well, Jesus already gave us a definition of a disciple. It's kind of like the whole mission conversation we had in one of the previous podcasts. Jesus already gave us a mission. Jesus already told us what a disciple is. How how do you combat that?
Vick Green: Which I I do love to say, okay, what is it? You know, 'cause like a lot of times it's like it sometimes they'll have a clear answer, but that clear answer is different from another church's clear answer. Like, and so, but even then, let's say we use Matthew four nineteen, right? Follow me and I'll make you fishers of men. And they're the three phases, like, okay, great. I love that passage and I think there's some really good stuff there. with that in mind, if somebody comes to your church
Jeremy Smith: Yeah, right.
Vick Green: And for 10 years, does everything you ask them to do. If they come to your church versus the church down the road, what's gonna be different? And the truth is that they're gonna come out a different person. And so if I go to Cross Point versus Long Hollow versus, you know, any other church on our network, like there's gonna be there's gonna be unique things that are true in your community and in your leadership. And what that is, is that's The Lord's giving you a uniqueness and and so I think that it's just naming what are those unique elements? What are the things that need to be most elevated? Because the truth is there's certain things that you need to develop in your disciples that are gonna better help you serve the community that you're in, that are gonna be able to better that you and your leadership are gonna have deeper convictions in. And so if we just say like a disciple is a disciple, We miss some of the greatest opportunity to reach the community and for us and our leadership to kind of fan into flames what God's given us a strong conviction around and is wanting us to build as as a church.
Jeremy Smith: That that's so good. and it reminds me of we have like Smith family values, you know, and and and they're really things we're trying the kind of kids and adults we're trying to raise raise up and values we're trying to put in them so they can become these kind of people. And you know, some of it's the same as what your family may have, but some of it's really unique to us and what matters to me and what matters to my wife. And so It there's a basis that's the same that we can't get away from. And I think the same thing with scripture, but there's going to be a unique flavor to it based on your family, your church family, the community that you're reaching. That's one of the things that I loved most about it. We got stuck when we were trying to do this without you, Vic, which how how could we ever do it? But we got stuck with a definition of a disciple. You know, it's like a disciple of Jesus, no a disciple knows, loves, and obeys Jesus. And teaches others to do the same. So I I I can even still kind of remember it, you know, something like that. But I remember getting exposed to Dream Disciple, and it wasn't just what a disciple does. It wasn't just descriptive like you like you talked about. Cause I I you know, especially in the Wesleyan tradition, we're all about holiness and holiness being becoming who we've been created to be in the image of Christ and the unique reflection.
Vick Green: Mm.
Jeremy Smith: of God that that we are, that Ephesians 2 10 sort of thing that we always talk about that that I'm so passionate about. and and to it it felt so dry to me. No love and obey or serve and obey. You know, you're just coming up with these do things and that's what a disciple is. So when it was more about who we're becoming and a picture of who we're becoming in the image of Christ and unique reflection that we are in ourselves but also in our church.
Vick Green: Mm.
Jeremy Smith: It's a whole lot bigger and more beautiful to me.
Vick Green: Yeah, I mean, I so take that idea, like we we look at when you don't have a dream disciple. So even if you have a disciple definition or maybe you don't have anything at all, like what are you missing? And I think that's one of those is often that without that dream disciple, you're casting a vision of what you want people to do, but not who you want them to become. And and that and it's it's a huge shift because what you want them to do, that's their activity. Who you want them to become, that's their identity. And when you look, that's where transformational change happens. And so we we all are familiar with James Clear and like he talks about like the identity based habits. And so not I'm trying to quit smoking. I am a smoker. I'm sorry, no, I am not a smoker. There you go. And so confession, right? And so he says start with identity because it's who before do.
Jeremy Smith: Not a smoker. confession from Vic.
Vick Green: And I think you see that go back to Matthew 419 with Jesus. When Jesus looks and follow me, and I will make you, and he doesn't say go fish for men. He says, I'll make you fishers of men. It's a noun. He was painting a picture to fishermen of who they would become. It was an identity based approach. And so I think similarly what we look at with our dream disciple is what is the identity we want our people to live into?
Jeremy Smith: That's really good.
Vick Green: Who do we want them to become? And I think when when you don't have that dream disciple and you and you lean on what you want them to do, because that's what you said. You gave me four verbs. You want me want them to hear, love, serve, and and obey, you know.
Jeremy Smith: Obey. Yeah. No love, serve, obey. Whatever the whatever you come up with.
Vick Green: Yeah, that's a checklist, you know? Like I say that, you know, like and I think that's where we go typically, but it's like that doesn't inspire at the heart. At best, it's uninspiring invitation. At worst, it can actually promote a work based theology. And I think when you can flip that and not just go to verbs, but go to nouns and say, who are they becoming? Man, that's vision. That's the difference we're talking about between a disciple and
Jeremy Smith: Mm-hmm.
Vick Green: And a our disciple definition and a dream disciple.
Jeremy Smith: And I love that so much because like you know that intuitively, but then when you go to do it, it becomes the checklist. It becomes the verbs instead of the noun, it becomes the do instead of the identity or whatever it is. So that that that I remember that being so freeing for me to be like, that's right, you know, like that that that gives me so much direction for the angst that that I've been feeling about.
Vick Green: Mm-hmm. That's right. That's right. Yeah. That's good. No, I love it. Tell sh share just a a little bit about y'all story. Share what your roles are. And then how that so that somebody will have some that in mind. And then how are you guys using it at cross point?
Jeremy Smith: Yeah, our roles are faithful follower, helpful neighbor, deployed disciple, and kingdom builder. And I love the process of going through building competencies and characteristics from the scripture, from disciple makers in our church, from the problems that our communities have, putting it together and and within the unique context of who we are and where we are. And so faithful followers, the heart, we draw a little cross point Chris or cross point Claire and Draw a heart, faithful followers, the heart, helpful neighbors, the hands, deployed disciple or the feet, kingdom builder or the eyes. God gives us new eyes to see the world differently and to act differently after that. so those are our four. And what I'd say is like, don't copy that. Every time I talk about this and say this next part in particular, people are like, that's so good. What were they again? And and they wanna, they wanna, they want to copy it.
Vick Green: Yeah.
Jeremy Smith: That that was what was unique for us. and and one of the things that I love is now we have this magnet that our kids get, and it goes on the screens at the end of every service as well. And it's a prayer of blessing around those four roles of a disciple. And so the these kids are praying, Lord, give me the heart of a faithful follower, give me the hands of a helpful neighbor, give me the feet of a deployed disciple, give me the eyes of a kingdom builder in Jesus' name.
Vick Green: Mm-hmm. So go.
Jeremy Smith: And like that's a prayer that they pray at the end of the services, that they have magnets that they take home. One of our pastors, his kids know that prayer. One of them's two, one of them's like seven. They know that prayer by heart. You know, so our kids are growing up, knowing who they're supposed to become in the image of Christ and and having that foundation, knowing what it means to be a disciple. And again, that's why I loved it so much. Was the primary question that drove me.
Vick Green: So good.
Jeremy Smith: To trying to become a disciple making movement that that convicted me was that guy asking me, What kind of disciples are you a part of making? And I realized, how can I know if I've made a disciple if we've never defined and given a picture of what kind of disciples we're trying to make? It created that tension right up front for me. Like, how do I even know if I'm making these kind of disciples? And so
Vick Green: Mm. That's right. Right. Right.
Jeremy Smith: that's what they are for us and and again I what I've loved about it is you get to talk to your people about we wanna help you become this kind of follower of Jesus, not just we want you to do a lot of stuff or or do a lot of stuff for the church.
Making Disciples with Replicate: Hey church leader, I hope these podcast episodes and the Movement Ready Church book that Robbie and I have written are helping you get disciple making started in your church. What I'm excited for in the next season is that we're taking the Movement Ready Church book to your church. We're doing one day workshops where myself or one of the navigators on our replicate team come on site to your church and work with your staff and leaders to take the principles of this book and to put it into action. What I love about this workshop is that we're not going to do just trainings from the book, but we are actually going to help you create something personal for your church. We're going to give every one of your leaders some essential training to grow as disciple makers and to be a developer of leaders. Secondly, we're going to give you a personalized assessment of your disciple making culture. And then thirdly, we're going to create a one year focus and a first step to get started so that you can see your movement begin. So all you have to do is go to movementreadytraining.com to get more information and to get started. You'll see it's pretty simple. Let's jump on a call together. Let's create a personalized training day for your church and then let's our team take care of the rest and we will bring the Movement Ready Church to your church. So just go to MovementReadyChurchTraining.com and let's get your movement started. Now let's get back to our conversation together.
Vick Green: Yeah. And I think too that what is you guys did a great job. Deployed disciple from other churches may look and be like, that that that that's a little too cute, or they went with alliteration. Well, you guys are in a military community. And so that deeply resonates. And helpful neighbor, like that neighbor term is one that has historical significance in your church. And so I remember sharing this with your people and people are like, Yeah, that's us. And and so love that you guys made it your own in it.
Jeremy Smith: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Vick Green: And and then to the parent blessing card, you know, I think there that now has become such a a big thing for all of our people who have the their own dream disciples. I feel like that's one of the first place people go is how do we bless kids with this and do the tactile learning of head, you know, eyes, heart, head. Like, and I think that's imagining from zero. To when you know, to 60, like you're hearing the same message reinforced around, man, this is who you're becoming. This is what it means to be a follower. And the just the power of that, man. Like love what you guys have done even down. I actually think family ministry is probably my favorite place that this is all implemented. Like I just think it's has some of the most creative. Like I hear VBS songs from people, like I hear question cards at the dinner table. Or carpool line car questions. Like there's just so much there. And I think that's one of the other things that I love is how do you bring this into every ministry and by
Jeremy Smith: Yeah. And it's also the hardest one to bring it to. You have to be the you have to be the most creative and it's the hardest because it it's like modifying it and trying to actually help them be able to understand this. But thinking about trying to create a church where the next generation grows up knowing that this is what the church is supposed to be about, that's everything.
Vick Green: Maybe that's why I like it. You know, I think it's funny too, as we're talking about this, is and I don't it churches don't intentionally do this, but churches so often they cast this collective vision where we always talk about us as a body of Christ, which I think is super important, obviously. We talk about like, hey, here at the church, and it's like we always are communicating. If you will join in on what we're doing, here's who we will become. But we never flip it and say, hey, if you join in and what we're doing, here's who you will become. And we miss it, man. Like it's so funny because everywhere else in life, people get it. It's marketing 101. And I don't mean to like make this too secular. Like I'm not trying to like make it that like it's so much bigger than marketing. But I'm like, why can every how can everyone else look and say, hey, if you buy this product, if you buy this widget, here's how your life will be better. Why can we not look and say, hey, if you step into the body of Christ and experience the gospel transformation of Jesus Christ, here's how your life will be better. It's poor stewardship of just at the end of the day, when God gets a hold of us and changes our life. Like, tell me how will I be a better father? How will I be a better spouse? How will I be a better friend? A better employee. All of it's there because we have the greatest value in the world in the gospel. We just have to look and say, how do we say it in a way that resonates with our people?
Jeremy Smith: I think if we're honest, we have to repent of that because if you were just discipling someone one on one, you know, or if if this were a church of twelve or twenty or something like that, where you weren't getting paid for it, like you'd probably just be like, Hey, let's do what's best for you, not what's best for the organization. You know. But we have these organizations and we have you know, we have to sustain and it's the origin it's the repentance process that I had to go through of like
Vick Green: Mm-hmm. Mm, yeah.
Jeremy Smith: This isn't about sustaining an organization. This is about creating a disciple-making movement, helping people become who they who they've been created to be in the image of Christ, and then go and help other people become that to bring the kingdom of heaven to earth. That's what this is about. And if if that's not my main motivation, that's why Dream Disciple is in the motivation level, like you said. If that's not part of my main motivation, then I have to repent because I'm I'm doing this for the wrong reasons.
Vick Green: That's right. Mm-hmm. Yeah. That's right. And I think it's it getting that right there of of letting that be the starting point and how do we cast that vision? And like ultimately, if we can't do that, nothing else works. If we can't help people see that and cast the vision, like your new program, your new pathway, like people don't join your church for a how. They don't join it from a busier calendar. They join it so that they can become a better people. And so the question is, how do you cast that vision?
Jeremy Smith: Yeah. Right. Mm.
Vick Green: Don't give me the checklist that just says, hey, here's the four hours we're asking from you. Instead, tell me who do you want me to become? What do you want, not from me, but for me? And I think that piece there, the one other thing is as we were going, I realized the number one question I get, and maybe you remember this, Jeremy, who's this for? Who's this language for? And is it for insiders? Is it outsiders? And like the underwhelming answer of yes.
Jeremy Smith: Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Vick Green: But I but I think here's here's who's it for. Your dream disciple, when you do it well, should evaluate the family and engage the fringe. Evaluate the family. You never like graduate beyond becoming the dream disciple. You're never like, been there, done that. Done. Like when I think about that, when you when I look at some of the self-assessments that we create with churches and I ask that.
Jeremy Smith: Did it.
Vick Green: The Holy Spirit uses merit of my life and is always showing me where I where I need to surrender more of my life to him, where I need to step in obedience. So it's always evaluating the family, but also it's engaging the fringe. And so we always want to think and say, Man, are we communicating this in a way that somebody you shouldn't have to be a seasoned churchgoer to understand why this is important. And
Jeremy Smith: A doctor a theology degree to understand it?
Vick Green: That's right. And and it's like there's so often we forget what it was like to not know things, to not know some of these churchy words. And so, and and I'm not saying lower the bar, but let's tailor our accent to our community. Let's make sure that as a new person comes into our church, can we communicate the gospel and all of its power in a way that they look and say, that's what I've been searching for. Because your community, wherever you are, there is something broken in that community. There is hurt that people are walking through that the gospel is the too good to be true gospel news on the other side of it. And when we can communicate that in a way that people say, that's what I've been looking for, man, that's the motivation level. That's when they look and say, well, that's worth giving one hour, two hours, three hours of my time. And so I think how do we not just evaluate the family with this, but how do we engage the fringe?
Jeremy Smith: Vic, Vic, one of the really cool things that happened with this recently was in our multiply groups or our D groups, we we have this little evaluation tool that you all helped us create where it's the bullseye and it has faithful follower, helpful neighbor, deploy disciple kingdom builder, and you rate yourself one to five on it. One being I'm not proficient at this at all, five being I'm a rock star at this, or you know, I'm very proficient. I'm doing it all the time. And so we do it at the beginning of our D groups. In the middle of our D groups, halfway through and then at the end, or at least we're supposed to. My group does, at least. We try to get everybody to do it. And I record their answers at the beginning of the year where they are. And everybody's super low usually. And and even I'll give myself a low score usually on helpful neighbor because I do help people around the church and and the church activities. But when I go home, I usually am like, you know, close the garage door and and they're they'll they never want me to have a low score, but
Vick Green: Yeah. Yeah.
Jeremy Smith: We will rate ourselves. I'll record them. And then we just did our half halfway through the year assessment, probably a month ago. And it was so awesome. I didn't tell them what their previous scores were. I just had them re-ranked themselves on each one of those. We have questions that help you evaluate and a statement that helps you evaluate. In fact, it's right here on my lock screen right now. Let's see if I can get that. There there's the roles of a disciple, you know? And we made that available to our church with the questions and and the the statements so that
Vick Green: Come on. I love it.
Jeremy Smith: You can sit there and help somebody evaluate where they are. But we went through it again and it was so cool. Every single one of them advanced in at least two of the areas of what of of the dream disciple for us. In at least two of those roles of a disciple. And one of them who started off as all ones. This guy was he's he's like on the fringe of Christianity. He was kind of a Christian, kinda not really. so we kind of bent the roles a little bit, letting him into the D group, but we're
Vick Green: So good. Wow.
Jeremy Smith: He he would he had advanced in all he had taken steps forward in all four of those roles. And he's like, Now I know I'm a Christian now. You know, so so yeah, I mean, having them in and some people may not like the evaluative part of it, but it's just some kind of measure for am I becoming who God has created me to be? yeah. So that was a really cool story recently.
Vick Green: That's great. come on. That's right. No, it's so good. And just to slow that down too, to make sure like D groups for years, I think I had a tendency to ask people to be my D group, and I would push the disciplines, Bible reading, hear journals, accountability, prayer. That's like recruiting to the army using boot camp. Like, let me tell you how hard this is gonna be. Are you up for it? And it's like.
Jeremy Smith: Yeah.
Vick Green: That's what it looks like when we lead with method. Are we when we lead with a how of here's a program or here's the pathway? And so what you're looking at saying, here's who we're gonna become, guys. Let's talk about where we are today. And let's just let's keep that as the vision to the forefront. So my encouragement is if you don't have a dream disciple, you can try to build whatever strategy you want, but you're building strategy, but you don't know what success looks like. And you're calling your people to do something, not become something. And so when we get that clear, everything else for our strategy falls into place. So that is the Dream Disciple. We're gonna actually put the Dream Disciple resource in the show notes so you can get that there. as well, it's obviously in the Movement Ready Church book. And so if you're at interested at all in developing your Dream Disciple, you can start there. We also do one days where we help you get your dream disciples. So just click the link below in the leader notes. And as always, if this is helpful for you, then share it with others and subscribe to it until next time, where we go up from motivation level into the method level. We enter the pathway and D groups. And so we'll be there next time and talk to you then.
Vick Green: I love I love how comfortable you are in that sea. You know, glad to have Vic back with us, in s for another episode. True, that's true. We vacations, man. We we both just come back from vacation. It feels good to finally be back. I think we were thirty minutes late to starting this after we just tried to catch up on everything.
Jeremy Smith: So today That's right, you gotta catch up. Blue Ridge Mountains for me. I love the Blue Ridge Mountains. How about for you?
Vick Green: I just got back from the beach and then headed to Hot Springs, Arkansas in a couple of weeks with the family. So yeah, yeah, it's gonna be fun.
Jeremy Smith: Okay. All right. You'll have to tell us which one's better. The beach or Hot Springs, Arkansas.
Vick Green: the the the beach. But Hot Springs, Arkansas will be fun with the peop with my whole family.
Jeremy Smith: No offense to Hot Spr yeah, no offense to Hot Springs, Arkansas. today we're recording is the US Belgium game. Balogun is back. We're gonna date it a little bit, but I can't let us go into this podcast without a prediction, which everybody will know how bad off we were or how right on we were.
Vick Green: That's right. Mm. It's gonna be disappointing if we both predict a win and then they lose. It's people gonna be like, Well, this episode stinks.
Jeremy Smith: No. We're not speaking that evil into this, okay? Yeah, that's not allowed. Okay, Vic, real quick US Belgium prediction.
Vick Green: going three two.
Jeremy Smith: Okay. I'm going three one US. I'm I'm confident. I'm confident. Yeah, yeah. I I think we got a little edge with this Balogun thing. I I don't know if you yeah, I think we're good. So
Vick Green: Ooh, I almost went three one, but I went three two. So I like yours though. Come on. Come on, USA. I like it. I like it. Dude Donald Trump's approval ratings have to go back up after after this. Any anyway.
Jeremy Smith: Maybe not across the world. Actually, that's what we're talking about today. Donald Trump's approval rating. No. we're gonna move up the vision plan today a little bit and go to I what I think is my favorite part of the vision plan, or at least the part that most directly answered some of the questions that I have. We're gonna talk about
Vick Green: There it is.
Jeremy Smith: What it means to have a dream disciple. that's part of the foundation of the vision plan. And I think the foundation of what it means to be a disciple make a movement. So as we talk about vision plan and dream disciple, Vic, what is a dream disciple? Because I think that's a brand new term for for people. What is a dream disciple and why do churches need one?
Vick Green: Yeah. So the Dream Disciple was very much, I mean, we we've been talking about this for years in replicate. It's the idea of like, man, if you if you don't know what you're aiming at, you'll miss it every time kind of idea. So it's it's really that principle. And the Dream Disciple, to put it in a sense, is it's a vivid picture of personal transformation that tells you when you're successful. And so it is this vivid picture. And so we're trying to paint a picture of our people. This is a really a vision piece for you as a ministry leader and of personal transformation. So not what are they active doing, but who are they becoming? And ultimately, this is the goal. This is what we're targeting. We're not looking just to make converts, we're looking to make disciples, right? We're not just counting the people that are in our church, but we're weighing them. And so that's what the dream disciple is. Here's what I find with the Dream Disciple is that this actually is, it's usually missing in churches. And it is one of those things that both the visionary and the strategists can both say, we need that. And so I think that's why it's such a like it's such a thing that that churches gravitate towards because visionaries look and say, we have a collective vision, but I could see how we need to make it personal. And a strategist can look and say, okay, so if we don't know the disciples were developing, how are we gonna know about all of our ministry environments if they're being effective or not? And so this conversation is one that I think both the lead pastor and the discipleship pastor can like both get around the table and be like, yes, like we need this.
Jeremy Smith: Yeah, it and it feels like such a no duh when you get into it. Like yeah, yeah. Like how in the world did I grow up in church and not have and hear about disciple making and all this stuff and what we should be doing. And no one ever really like laid out what is a disciple for me. I never learned it in seminary. and maybe it's because Jesus doesn't give us a super clear definition.
Vick Green: A no duh. Is it? It's good.
Jeremy Smith: Or picture, vivid picture, which is part of the what I love about what you just said. It's not just a definition, and I know we're about to get to that. It's a it's a vivid picture, it's a vision piece. That's a that I I don't know if you picked up on that listening to this, but the vision piece of this is a critical w is critical to understanding what this is all about. It it's not just a functional, it's it's something that gives a picture to our people of who we're becoming in the image of Christ. Which is holiness. But like how how Okay.
Vick Green: Yeah. Yeah. K let's let's jump there real quick. That that idea because I know I think it's a question we're gonna answer in a little bit, but that idea of the difference between a vivid picture versus a definition. I think a lot of people talk about that with like a disciple and they will we have our definition or like here's what it is theologically. That's not what this is. I think that disciple definition, it's a good starting line, but it's a poor finish line. Because ultimately what we're trying to do is cast vision with this. This is ultimately who you want your people to become. And I think sometimes most of the time that like churches don't have anything. Or sometimes they do, but it's like in a Word document that was given to staff and put on a shelf and has never been used again. And and ultimately what we have to do, this is a picture of transformation. And so like when we think about our vision plan, it's
Jeremy Smith: I love you.
Vick Green: Not the information level, it's the motivation level. It's what stirs our heart and how do we give our people a picture of the future? And so I think one of the things that we've got to do, every person has their own picture in their mind of what a disciple is or what a follower of Jesus is. And they've been discipled into it based off their past experiences. And so if you come into church and all you've experienced is just coming on Sundays or getting in a small group or Maybe, you know, you grew up in a place where the measure of maturity always was information, not application. Or, you know, I know s of of my dad, a lot of times he he thinks about his faith more being per private when really it means it's more meant to be personal. And so he's had to like really okay, no, I need to share my faith and why I believe what I believe. All of our people have these experiences, have these pictures of what a disciple is until we give them vision. Of no, there's a better way until we help them see the picture of what transformation looks like that actually hits at the heart level. Our people will continue to have their own picture in mind and continue to go that direction. So I think the disciple definition is really important. Like I kind of think of the your definition of a disciple, think of it like sermon prep. You should do sermon prep, you should bring in all the facts, make sure you're exegeting scripture correctly. And there's a second layer where you move from sermon prep to sermon delivery, though where you hit your you where you get your lines, where you summarize it well, where you say it in a compelling way. That's what the dream disciple is. It's building upon the sermon prep of what is a disciple in scripture. And it's moving to say, okay, how do I cast that in a way that's compelling for our people?
Jeremy Smith: How do you talk to people? This is one of the main objections I get when I've talked when I've talked about this in bigger groups. They're like, Well, Jesus already gave us a definition of a disciple. It's kind of like the whole mission conversation we had in one of the previous podcasts. Jesus already gave us a mission. Jesus already told us what a disciple is. How how do you combat that?
Vick Green: Which I I do love to say, okay, what is it? You know, 'cause like a lot of times it's like it sometimes they'll have a clear answer, but that clear answer is different from another church's clear answer. Like, and so, but even then, let's say we use Matthew four nineteen, right? Follow me and I'll make you fishers of men. And they're the three phases, like, okay, great. I love that passage and I think there's some really good stuff there. with that in mind, if somebody comes to your church
Jeremy Smith: Yeah, right.
Vick Green: And for 10 years, does everything you ask them to do. If they come to your church versus the church down the road, what's gonna be different? And the truth is that they're gonna come out a different person. And so if I go to Cross Point versus Long Hollow versus, you know, any other church on our network, like there's gonna be there's gonna be unique things that are true in your community and in your leadership. And what that is, is that's The Lord's giving you a uniqueness and and so I think that it's just naming what are those unique elements? What are the things that need to be most elevated? Because the truth is there's certain things that you need to develop in your disciples that are gonna better help you serve the community that you're in, that are gonna be able to better that you and your leadership are gonna have deeper convictions in. And so if we just say like a disciple is a disciple, We miss some of the greatest opportunity to reach the community and for us and our leadership to kind of fan into flames what God's given us a strong conviction around and is wanting us to build as as a church.
Jeremy Smith: That that's so good. and it reminds me of we have like Smith family values, you know, and and and they're really things we're trying the kind of kids and adults we're trying to raise raise up and values we're trying to put in them so they can become these kind of people. And you know, some of it's the same as what your family may have, but some of it's really unique to us and what matters to me and what matters to my wife. And so It there's a basis that's the same that we can't get away from. And I think the same thing with scripture, but there's going to be a unique flavor to it based on your family, your church family, the community that you're reaching. That's one of the things that I loved most about it. We got stuck when we were trying to do this without you, Vic, which how how could we ever do it? But we got stuck with a definition of a disciple. You know, it's like a disciple of Jesus, no a disciple knows, loves, and obeys Jesus. And teaches others to do the same. So I I I can even still kind of remember it, you know, something like that. But I remember getting exposed to Dream Disciple, and it wasn't just what a disciple does. It wasn't just descriptive like you like you talked about. Cause I I you know, especially in the Wesleyan tradition, we're all about holiness and holiness being becoming who we've been created to be in the image of Christ and the unique reflection.
Vick Green: Mm.
Jeremy Smith: of God that that we are, that Ephesians 2 10 sort of thing that we always talk about that that I'm so passionate about. and and to it it felt so dry to me. No love and obey or serve and obey. You know, you're just coming up with these do things and that's what a disciple is. So when it was more about who we're becoming and a picture of who we're becoming in the image of Christ and unique reflection that we are in ourselves but also in our church.
Vick Green: Mm.
Jeremy Smith: It's a whole lot bigger and more beautiful to me.
Vick Green: Yeah, I mean, I so take that idea, like we we look at when you don't have a dream disciple. So even if you have a disciple definition or maybe you don't have anything at all, like what are you missing? And I think that's one of those is often that without that dream disciple, you're casting a vision of what you want people to do, but not who you want them to become. And and that and it's it's a huge shift because what you want them to do, that's their activity. Who you want them to become, that's their identity. And when you look, that's where transformational change happens. And so we we all are familiar with James Clear and like he talks about like the identity based habits. And so not I'm trying to quit smoking. I am a smoker. I'm sorry, no, I am not a smoker. There you go. And so confession, right? And so he says start with identity because it's who before do.
Jeremy Smith: Not a smoker. confession from Vic.
Vick Green: And I think you see that go back to Matthew 419 with Jesus. When Jesus looks and follow me, and I will make you, and he doesn't say go fish for men. He says, I'll make you fishers of men. It's a noun. He was painting a picture to fishermen of who they would become. It was an identity based approach. And so I think similarly what we look at with our dream disciple is what is the identity we want our people to live into?
Jeremy Smith: That's really good.
Vick Green: Who do we want them to become? And I think when when you don't have that dream disciple and you and you lean on what you want them to do, because that's what you said. You gave me four verbs. You want me want them to hear, love, serve, and and obey, you know.
Jeremy Smith: Obey. Yeah. No love, serve, obey. Whatever the whatever you come up with.
Vick Green: Yeah, that's a checklist, you know? Like I say that, you know, like and I think that's where we go typically, but it's like that doesn't inspire at the heart. At best, it's uninspiring invitation. At worst, it can actually promote a work based theology. And I think when you can flip that and not just go to verbs, but go to nouns and say, who are they becoming? Man, that's vision. That's the difference we're talking about between a disciple and
Jeremy Smith: Mm-hmm.
Vick Green: And a our disciple definition and a dream disciple.
Jeremy Smith: And I love that so much because like you know that intuitively, but then when you go to do it, it becomes the checklist. It becomes the verbs instead of the noun, it becomes the do instead of the identity or whatever it is. So that that that I remember that being so freeing for me to be like, that's right, you know, like that that that gives me so much direction for the angst that that I've been feeling about.
Vick Green: Mm-hmm. That's right. That's right. Yeah. That's good. No, I love it. Tell sh share just a a little bit about y'all story. Share what your roles are. And then how that so that somebody will have some that in mind. And then how are you guys using it at cross point?
Jeremy Smith: Yeah, our roles are faithful follower, helpful neighbor, deployed disciple, and kingdom builder. And I love the process of going through building competencies and characteristics from the scripture, from disciple makers in our church, from the problems that our communities have, putting it together and and within the unique context of who we are and where we are. And so faithful followers, the heart, we draw a little cross point Chris or cross point Claire and Draw a heart, faithful followers, the heart, helpful neighbors, the hands, deployed disciple or the feet, kingdom builder or the eyes. God gives us new eyes to see the world differently and to act differently after that. so those are our four. And what I'd say is like, don't copy that. Every time I talk about this and say this next part in particular, people are like, that's so good. What were they again? And and they wanna, they wanna, they want to copy it.
Vick Green: Yeah.
Jeremy Smith: That that was what was unique for us. and and one of the things that I love is now we have this magnet that our kids get, and it goes on the screens at the end of every service as well. And it's a prayer of blessing around those four roles of a disciple. And so the these kids are praying, Lord, give me the heart of a faithful follower, give me the hands of a helpful neighbor, give me the feet of a deployed disciple, give me the eyes of a kingdom builder in Jesus' name.
Vick Green: Mm-hmm. So go.
Jeremy Smith: And like that's a prayer that they pray at the end of the services, that they have magnets that they take home. One of our pastors, his kids know that prayer. One of them's two, one of them's like seven. They know that prayer by heart. You know, so our kids are growing up, knowing who they're supposed to become in the image of Christ and and having that foundation, knowing what it means to be a disciple. And again, that's why I loved it so much. Was the primary question that drove me.
Vick Green: So good.
Jeremy Smith: To trying to become a disciple making movement that that convicted me was that guy asking me, What kind of disciples are you a part of making? And I realized, how can I know if I've made a disciple if we've never defined and given a picture of what kind of disciples we're trying to make? It created that tension right up front for me. Like, how do I even know if I'm making these kind of disciples? And so
Vick Green: Mm. That's right. Right. Right.
Jeremy Smith: that's what they are for us and and again I what I've loved about it is you get to talk to your people about we wanna help you become this kind of follower of Jesus, not just we want you to do a lot of stuff or or do a lot of stuff for the church.
Making Disciples with Replicate: Hey church leader, I hope these podcast episodes and the Movement Ready Church book that Robbie and I have written are helping you get disciple making started in your church. What I'm excited for in the next season is that we're taking the Movement Ready Church book to your church. We're doing one day workshops where myself or one of the navigators on our replicate team come on site to your church and work with your staff and leaders to take the principles of this book and to put it into action. What I love about this workshop is that we're not going to do just trainings from the book, but we are actually going to help you create something personal for your church. We're going to give every one of your leaders some essential training to grow as disciple makers and to be a developer of leaders. Secondly, we're going to give you a personalized assessment of your disciple making culture. And then thirdly, we're going to create a one year focus and a first step to get started so that you can see your movement begin. So all you have to do is go to movementreadytraining.com to get more information and to get started. You'll see it's pretty simple. Let's jump on a call together. Let's create a personalized training day for your church and then let's our team take care of the rest and we will bring the Movement Ready Church to your church. So just go to MovementReadyChurchTraining.com and let's get your movement started. Now let's get back to our conversation together.
Vick Green: Yeah. And I think too that what is you guys did a great job. Deployed disciple from other churches may look and be like, that that that that's a little too cute, or they went with alliteration. Well, you guys are in a military community. And so that deeply resonates. And helpful neighbor, like that neighbor term is one that has historical significance in your church. And so I remember sharing this with your people and people are like, Yeah, that's us. And and so love that you guys made it your own in it.
Jeremy Smith: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Vick Green: And and then to the parent blessing card, you know, I think there that now has become such a a big thing for all of our people who have the their own dream disciples. I feel like that's one of the first place people go is how do we bless kids with this and do the tactile learning of head, you know, eyes, heart, head. Like, and I think that's imagining from zero. To when you know, to 60, like you're hearing the same message reinforced around, man, this is who you're becoming. This is what it means to be a follower. And the just the power of that, man. Like love what you guys have done even down. I actually think family ministry is probably my favorite place that this is all implemented. Like I just think it's has some of the most creative. Like I hear VBS songs from people, like I hear question cards at the dinner table. Or carpool line car questions. Like there's just so much there. And I think that's one of the other things that I love is how do you bring this into every ministry and by
Jeremy Smith: Yeah. And it's also the hardest one to bring it to. You have to be the you have to be the most creative and it's the hardest because it it's like modifying it and trying to actually help them be able to understand this. But thinking about trying to create a church where the next generation grows up knowing that this is what the church is supposed to be about, that's everything.
Vick Green: Maybe that's why I like it. You know, I think it's funny too, as we're talking about this, is and I don't it churches don't intentionally do this, but churches so often they cast this collective vision where we always talk about us as a body of Christ, which I think is super important, obviously. We talk about like, hey, here at the church, and it's like we always are communicating. If you will join in on what we're doing, here's who we will become. But we never flip it and say, hey, if you join in and what we're doing, here's who you will become. And we miss it, man. Like it's so funny because everywhere else in life, people get it. It's marketing 101. And I don't mean to like make this too secular. Like I'm not trying to like make it that like it's so much bigger than marketing. But I'm like, why can every how can everyone else look and say, hey, if you buy this product, if you buy this widget, here's how your life will be better. Why can we not look and say, hey, if you step into the body of Christ and experience the gospel transformation of Jesus Christ, here's how your life will be better. It's poor stewardship of just at the end of the day, when God gets a hold of us and changes our life. Like, tell me how will I be a better father? How will I be a better spouse? How will I be a better friend? A better employee. All of it's there because we have the greatest value in the world in the gospel. We just have to look and say, how do we say it in a way that resonates with our people?
Jeremy Smith: I think if we're honest, we have to repent of that because if you were just discipling someone one on one, you know, or if if this were a church of twelve or twenty or something like that, where you weren't getting paid for it, like you'd probably just be like, Hey, let's do what's best for you, not what's best for the organization. You know. But we have these organizations and we have you know, we have to sustain and it's the origin it's the repentance process that I had to go through of like
Vick Green: Mm-hmm. Mm, yeah.
Jeremy Smith: This isn't about sustaining an organization. This is about creating a disciple-making movement, helping people become who they who they've been created to be in the image of Christ, and then go and help other people become that to bring the kingdom of heaven to earth. That's what this is about. And if if that's not my main motivation, that's why Dream Disciple is in the motivation level, like you said. If that's not part of my main motivation, then I have to repent because I'm I'm doing this for the wrong reasons.
Vick Green: That's right. Mm-hmm. Yeah. That's right. And I think it's it getting that right there of of letting that be the starting point and how do we cast that vision? And like ultimately, if we can't do that, nothing else works. If we can't help people see that and cast the vision, like your new program, your new pathway, like people don't join your church for a how. They don't join it from a busier calendar. They join it so that they can become a better people. And so the question is, how do you cast that vision?
Jeremy Smith: Yeah. Right. Mm.
Vick Green: Don't give me the checklist that just says, hey, here's the four hours we're asking from you. Instead, tell me who do you want me to become? What do you want, not from me, but for me? And I think that piece there, the one other thing is as we were going, I realized the number one question I get, and maybe you remember this, Jeremy, who's this for? Who's this language for? And is it for insiders? Is it outsiders? And like the underwhelming answer of yes.
Jeremy Smith: Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Vick Green: But I but I think here's here's who's it for. Your dream disciple, when you do it well, should evaluate the family and engage the fringe. Evaluate the family. You never like graduate beyond becoming the dream disciple. You're never like, been there, done that. Done. Like when I think about that, when you when I look at some of the self-assessments that we create with churches and I ask that.
Jeremy Smith: Did it.
Vick Green: The Holy Spirit uses merit of my life and is always showing me where I where I need to surrender more of my life to him, where I need to step in obedience. So it's always evaluating the family, but also it's engaging the fringe. And so we always want to think and say, Man, are we communicating this in a way that somebody you shouldn't have to be a seasoned churchgoer to understand why this is important. And
Jeremy Smith: A doctor a theology degree to understand it?
Vick Green: That's right. And and it's like there's so often we forget what it was like to not know things, to not know some of these churchy words. And so, and and I'm not saying lower the bar, but let's tailor our accent to our community. Let's make sure that as a new person comes into our church, can we communicate the gospel and all of its power in a way that they look and say, that's what I've been searching for. Because your community, wherever you are, there is something broken in that community. There is hurt that people are walking through that the gospel is the too good to be true gospel news on the other side of it. And when we can communicate that in a way that people say, that's what I've been looking for, man, that's the motivation level. That's when they look and say, well, that's worth giving one hour, two hours, three hours of my time. And so I think how do we not just evaluate the family with this, but how do we engage the fringe?
Jeremy Smith: Vic, Vic, one of the really cool things that happened with this recently was in our multiply groups or our D groups, we we have this little evaluation tool that you all helped us create where it's the bullseye and it has faithful follower, helpful neighbor, deploy disciple kingdom builder, and you rate yourself one to five on it. One being I'm not proficient at this at all, five being I'm a rock star at this, or you know, I'm very proficient. I'm doing it all the time. And so we do it at the beginning of our D groups. In the middle of our D groups, halfway through and then at the end, or at least we're supposed to. My group does, at least. We try to get everybody to do it. And I record their answers at the beginning of the year where they are. And everybody's super low usually. And and even I'll give myself a low score usually on helpful neighbor because I do help people around the church and and the church activities. But when I go home, I usually am like, you know, close the garage door and and they're they'll they never want me to have a low score, but
Vick Green: Yeah. Yeah.
Jeremy Smith: We will rate ourselves. I'll record them. And then we just did our half halfway through the year assessment, probably a month ago. And it was so awesome. I didn't tell them what their previous scores were. I just had them re-ranked themselves on each one of those. We have questions that help you evaluate and a statement that helps you evaluate. In fact, it's right here on my lock screen right now. Let's see if I can get that. There there's the roles of a disciple, you know? And we made that available to our church with the questions and and the the statements so that
Vick Green: Come on. I love it.
Jeremy Smith: You can sit there and help somebody evaluate where they are. But we went through it again and it was so cool. Every single one of them advanced in at least two of the areas of what of of the dream disciple for us. In at least two of those roles of a disciple. And one of them who started off as all ones. This guy was he's he's like on the fringe of Christianity. He was kind of a Christian, kinda not really. so we kind of bent the roles a little bit, letting him into the D group, but we're
Vick Green: So good. Wow.
Jeremy Smith: He he would he had advanced in all he had taken steps forward in all four of those roles. And he's like, Now I know I'm a Christian now. You know, so so yeah, I mean, having them in and some people may not like the evaluative part of it, but it's just some kind of measure for am I becoming who God has created me to be? yeah. So that was a really cool story recently.
Vick Green: That's great. come on. That's right. No, it's so good. And just to slow that down too, to make sure like D groups for years, I think I had a tendency to ask people to be my D group, and I would push the disciplines, Bible reading, hear journals, accountability, prayer. That's like recruiting to the army using boot camp. Like, let me tell you how hard this is gonna be. Are you up for it? And it's like.
Jeremy Smith: Yeah.
Vick Green: That's what it looks like when we lead with method. Are we when we lead with a how of here's a program or here's the pathway? And so what you're looking at saying, here's who we're gonna become, guys. Let's talk about where we are today. And let's just let's keep that as the vision to the forefront. So my encouragement is if you don't have a dream disciple, you can try to build whatever strategy you want, but you're building strategy, but you don't know what success looks like. And you're calling your people to do something, not become something. And so when we get that clear, everything else for our strategy falls into place. So that is the Dream Disciple. We're gonna actually put the Dream Disciple resource in the show notes so you can get that there. as well, it's obviously in the Movement Ready Church book. And so if you're at interested at all in developing your Dream Disciple, you can start there. We also do one days where we help you get your dream disciples. So just click the link below in the leader notes. And as always, if this is helpful for you, then share it with others and subscribe to it until next time, where we go up from motivation level into the method level. We enter the pathway and D groups. And so we'll be there next time and talk to you then.
