Catalyst Collab: Shannon Kring | Make Water Work 046

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I'm Isaac with 120 Water
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>> and I'm Chelsea with [music] Rogue Water
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and we're excited to welcome you to the
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Make Water Work and Catalyst Collab.
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>> [music]
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>> Well, hello everyone and welcome to the
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Make Water Work podcast and catalyst
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collab. Um, I am so thrilled that I get
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to every week or multiple times a week
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spend some time with Chelsea um from
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Rogue Water Lab. Um, really diving into
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what the Catalyst experience is, um,
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which is a I'll say conference so that
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it uh, orients folks to what it is. But
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it really is just a unique experience
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and um where there's guides happens
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every year. This year it's happening in
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September in San Diego. Last year it was
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Milwaukee. Um and I'm excited to be
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there. But there are all these guides,
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some of them for from the industry,
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water industry. And it's especially
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interesting because Catalyst brings
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folks from outside of the industry
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because there's a lot that we learn when
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we expand um open our aperture to learn
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from other disciplines. Um it really
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gets the creative problem solving
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moving. And so Chelsea, this has been so
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fun to do um together and um would love
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for you to introduce us to today's
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guest.
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Yeah, this one is especially exciting
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because um one just a really amazing
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person with a great story, but someone
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the water sector normally wouldn't be in
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rooms with to meet. So, we have Shannon
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Cring. She's an Emmy winning documentary
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filmmaker, director, she's president of
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Red Queen Media, and she's actually um
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in order to be here with us today taking
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um some time out of her film tour. Uh,
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right now she's on tour for two
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different films. One of which is a
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documentary feature film called Nine
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Little Indians, executive produced by
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Leonardo DiCaprio and Tony Robbins. So
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that's really cool. And she's in that
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space. She has other well-known
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documentary um called End of the Line,
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the women rock um about indigenous water
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protectors. Um so I met Shannon years
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ago when she was doing some work on
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water affordability. Um, and over that
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time of getting to know her, of course,
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had her as a guide at Catalyst in 2024.
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But what really impresses me the most
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with Shannon, um, is just the genuine,
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like so genuine human connection she
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brings to her work and the genuine care.
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Um, so that is what I'm most excited to
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get into today and this talk. So
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Shannon, welcome. Thanks so much for
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being here. And where are you uh joining
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in from today?
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>> I'm at home in Los Angeles. It's a rare
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moment when I'm actually home in in the
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office. So, I'm really happy to be here
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today. So, good to see you again.
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>> Yeah. Well, this is this is um yeah,
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this is an exciting um conversation
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because storytelling is really
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important. Um and we know every guest
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that we've had has a story about how
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water found them. And you can feel free
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to answer this however however you want.
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How how has water interfaced with with
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you and your work? Um, and what's your
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relationship to water?
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>> Well, I'll give you a little backstory
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on water, just the the role it's had in
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my life. I happened to grow up in the
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north woods of Wisconsin, and our home
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was downhill from an auto salvage, a
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junkyard. And so, not only did we have
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iron in our water and all kinds of
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things and and it smelled, we had this
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oily residue on the water at all times.
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>> And so, I was, you know, a person who
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um, you know, had the yellow clothes
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whenever I had something white. Um, the
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the smell of it. I can remember going
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off to college and uh a hairdresser gave
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me a little packet of something to
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demineralize my hair and I can still
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remember using that in a shower
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>> just having this orange uh brown orange
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just coming off of my hair and I'm like,
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"Oh my gosh, I'm blonde."
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Um, so there was that and then I went on
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and I eventually was living in Honduras
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and I was living in the second largest
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city in Honduras and the water there
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cannot be, you know, you can't just
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drink out of the tap, put it that way.
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And so it, you know, got E. coli and all
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kinds of parasites, etc. So that was a
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whole new experience, not even brushing
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your teeth with the water. then ended up
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moving to Helsinki, Finland, and spent a
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lot of time in there and Oslo, some of
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the best water in the world, where I
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just remember being like, "Oh my gosh,
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you can drink right out of the tap." And
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so, I guess I've had a unique experience
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in that I know what it's like to have
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water challenges to, you know, my
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parents still are going and filling up
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jugs of water at friends houses even
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though they've got a a filtration system
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and all of that. it's still just not
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great water. And so um I' I've really
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had both ends of the spectrum. And then
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professionally I um back um gosh, this
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is seven years back now ended up getting
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hired to make documentary films for the
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federal government. And I did a lot of
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filming for the White House and for
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Department of Health and Human Services.
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And under that I covered a number of
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programs but two of them that concerned
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water. One rural community development
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RCD uh which helps with of course the
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tech aspect and infrastructure basically
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um in rural communities and then
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something called LIEWAP. I don't know if
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you guys remember that but it was the
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lowincome household water assistance
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program. And so I got to travel across
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the country many, many times for years
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actually covering water stories. I think
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I did that for about six years, six and
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a half years. And so I got to see just
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things that I had no idea about. Um,
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obviously not an expert in water, but I
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feel like I have a really good grasp of
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what it's like both from the user
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perspective and then the operator. I've
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interviewed operators across the
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country. I've interviewed people that
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are, you know, working on solutions in
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challenging situations and it's just
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been so enlightening. It's uh it's a
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space that I find so not only
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interesting and of course crucial.
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What's more important than water? Um I
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really like the people. I was surprised
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to see that people work in water
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actually care because I can tell you
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from from my perspective being someone
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who, you know, opens the bill and it's
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like, "Oh gosh, the water's $700 for two
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months and we have two people in our
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home." Um, you know, you don't think
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about it that these are actual people
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and that there's an expense, a great
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expense to getting water into my home.
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And so I I really enjoy telling stories
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that look at all aspects of it.
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>> Yeah, that's what I think is so unique
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about you. When I met you, I met you
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when you were doing those film series on
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the low-inccome assistance, which I have
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some questions about a little bit later.
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Um,
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>> yeah,
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>> but you know, I forgot to mention too,
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like you have work in over 70 countries.
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like you just have this really um vast
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like categories that you have worked on
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um which is really amazing but also that
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you're able to bridge the gap um between
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consumers, customers, neighbors,
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residents and the water sector
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professionals. You know, when you
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started talking about your own personal
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experience growing up, there's probably
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a lot of water industry people thinking,
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"Oh, here it comes. Like we're going to
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get dogged on again." Um, but you're
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able to talk about these complex matters
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about yes, here's what end user
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experience has been and and is in some
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places that needs improved and here's
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the hard work and also dedication of
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people like it's it's um more than one
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part, you know, of this uh complex story
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and you've been able to do that really
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well. Before I ask you about some of
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that, I think when people probably heard
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that you worked on a film with Leonardo
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DiCaprio and Tony Robbins, they want to
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know more about that. Um, so can you
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tell us about Nine Little Indians? I
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know that in itself a heartfelt,
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heartbreaking, I think story. So, um,
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just a little bit about that work that
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you have going on right now.
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>> Well, that can be traced back to water
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as well. Um, because I was filming, uh,
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my documentary, End of the Line, the
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women of Standing Rock, about the
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indigenous water protectors that were
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standing up against the $3.8 billion
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Dakota Access Pipeline. They were
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concerned about their water. um the the
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pipeline leaked five times in the first
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three days of operation. It was a really
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big deal. And so I covered that story
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for a couple of years actually. But
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while making that film, I got a call
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from another South Dakota reservation,
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the Yankton Sue Tribe, and the tribal
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members told me, um, we're doing some
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water construction at our school. We're
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putting in new pipes and we've unearthed
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some more bodies of kids that never made
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it home from the Indian boarding school
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that existed here. And actually the
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school is still in operation under
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management by the tribe now. But for for
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many many decades it was um an Indian
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boarding school and if people aren't
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familiar and most people aren't uh about
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that program you know there were 526 of
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these schools across the country and
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when John F. Kennedy did a report on the
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schools um it showed that abuse was
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taking place in 98% sexual and physical
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abuse in 98% of those schools. It's a
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topic I've been covering. I've done well
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more than a thousand interviews across
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the country with survivors and I started
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telling the story of this one particular
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school and all of the kids who didn't
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make it home and just horrendous stories
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of what happened there. And so
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>> uh for me my other work you know these
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water stories are like a positive
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solutionoriented
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um endeavor and you know a lot of my
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other stories are not. I'm always
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looking at the best and worse um with
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regard to human behavior I guess and so
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it it makes my work really fascinating
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but and that's what really got me into
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working in a lot of tribal communities.
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I've been immersed in that world for
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more than 30 years now and telling
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stories in it for about 20 now.
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>> Wow.
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>> Yeah. I was going to ask you more too
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about that end of the line work, but
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also specifically like the link with
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tribal communities um you know in the
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water space. We have a lot of utilities
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um needing to work with either their
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nearby tribal governments or um
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>> uh just tribal cultures maybe if they
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don't have their own government or water
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system and really struggling to do that.
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I hear a lot of questions and people
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kind of looking for resources. You and I
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have talked before when I've learned a
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lot of really interesting things from
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you from your experiences, but we've
00:11:32.720 --> 00:11:34.310
talked before about the importance of
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cultural intelligence on social norms um
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and any community, right, that you go in
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um but your work specifically with
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tribes. Just wondering if you could talk
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a little bit about how that important
00:11:46.320 --> 00:11:48.710
that's been and you being able to tell
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their stories.
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>> Yeah. So um I think people are mistaken
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in believing that all native people are
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the same and that you know if you're a
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tribal member you all have the same
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interests etc. And there are some
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commonalities certainly just the way
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water is viewed for instance pretty much
00:12:06.079 --> 00:12:07.670
across the board throughout Turtle
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Island as it's referred to which would
00:12:09.839 --> 00:12:12.790
be you know North America, Central and
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South um water is viewed not just as
00:12:16.320 --> 00:12:18.069
something sacred but really as a
00:12:18.079 --> 00:12:21.430
relative and it's viewed as in some
00:12:21.440 --> 00:12:23.829
areas and with some indigenous people as
00:12:23.839 --> 00:12:28.389
an actual living uh breathing being with
00:12:28.399 --> 00:12:31.509
an intelligence of its own and as such
00:12:31.519 --> 00:12:33.750
it needs to be taken care of and so
00:12:33.760 --> 00:12:35.430
that's kind of a commonality and it's
00:12:35.440 --> 00:12:38.470
not just in the US or or in the Americas
00:12:38.480 --> 00:12:40.310
um the Mauy people for instance New
00:12:40.320 --> 00:12:42.629
Zealand actually granted as a result of
00:12:42.639 --> 00:12:45.430
how the Mauy look at um water they they
00:12:45.440 --> 00:12:47.829
granted personage or personhood I guess
00:12:47.839 --> 00:12:50.069
they're calling it to water so it has
00:12:50.079 --> 00:12:52.949
the same rights as people there now and
00:12:52.959 --> 00:12:55.430
so um you know I've been really blessed
00:12:55.440 --> 00:12:57.430
to experience many different cultures
00:12:57.440 --> 00:13:00.230
and how they view it But just dealing
00:13:00.240 --> 00:13:03.509
with tribal water, uh, it's just not one
00:13:03.519 --> 00:13:05.910
thing or one way of being when you show
00:13:05.920 --> 00:13:08.230
up. So, I can give you an example of
00:13:08.240 --> 00:13:11.590
that. I had never worked um, back, this
00:13:11.600 --> 00:13:14.629
is years ago, but I had never worked on
00:13:14.639 --> 00:13:17.350
um, this Apache reservation um, in
00:13:17.360 --> 00:13:21.350
Arizona. And typically when you are
00:13:21.360 --> 00:13:23.430
coming into a community and you're
00:13:23.440 --> 00:13:26.150
working with the tribal leadership, you
00:13:26.160 --> 00:13:28.470
come in what's called a good way. And
00:13:28.480 --> 00:13:32.470
part of that in some areas is you come
00:13:32.480 --> 00:13:34.629
in and you smudge, you sage yourself
00:13:34.639 --> 00:13:36.470
before you come in.
00:13:36.480 --> 00:13:38.949
>> And even if they don't see you do it,
00:13:38.959 --> 00:13:40.550
they might do it for you when you come
00:13:40.560 --> 00:13:43.269
in. Um or you might do it on your own.
00:13:43.279 --> 00:13:45.350
But I can tell you when I showed up at
00:13:45.360 --> 00:13:48.550
the San Carlos Apache reservation, um
00:13:48.560 --> 00:13:51.030
the gentleman who was dealing with all
00:13:51.040 --> 00:13:52.949
of the water issues said, "Oh, did you
00:13:52.959 --> 00:13:55.190
just do sage?" And I said, "Yes." And
00:13:55.200 --> 00:13:56.949
he's like, "Let's get that smell off of
00:13:56.959 --> 00:13:59.189
you." And he said, "Here, that'll be
00:13:59.199 --> 00:14:01.430
viewed as you're bringing in bad energy
00:14:01.440 --> 00:14:03.590
with you because why would you need to
00:14:03.600 --> 00:14:06.230
smudge yourself if you didn't have bad
00:14:06.240 --> 00:14:08.069
energy? So, where did you come from
00:14:08.079 --> 00:14:09.670
before this? Who were you with? What
00:14:09.680 --> 00:14:12.150
were you doing?" And it was just like a
00:14:12.160 --> 00:14:14.470
wake up for me even after decades of
00:14:14.480 --> 00:14:17.030
working um you know with different
00:14:17.040 --> 00:14:19.430
tribes. I hadn't been to this particular
00:14:19.440 --> 00:14:21.430
reservation and they had their own ways
00:14:21.440 --> 00:14:22.629
of being
00:14:22.639 --> 00:14:25.269
>> and um you know it's just a matter of
00:14:25.279 --> 00:14:27.829
learning that and I know that that is a
00:14:27.839 --> 00:14:30.629
big task because people who are dealing
00:14:30.639 --> 00:14:33.350
with these water issues are so busy and
00:14:33.360 --> 00:14:35.750
dealing with sometimes as I learned
00:14:35.760 --> 00:14:39.350
really um huge things and things that
00:14:39.360 --> 00:14:41.110
probably keep them up at night every
00:14:41.120 --> 00:14:45.269
night. And so having to learn this way
00:14:45.279 --> 00:14:47.590
of being is a whole added layer that
00:14:47.600 --> 00:14:49.750
they don't have time for. And yet it is
00:14:49.760 --> 00:14:51.990
so crucial.
00:14:52.000 --> 00:14:55.750
>> I Yeah, I love that. Like there's I came
00:14:55.760 --> 00:14:58.069
from outside of the water industry. Um
00:14:58.079 --> 00:15:01.350
in 2019 I was in um sales and marketing
00:15:01.360 --> 00:15:03.590
tech and then entered the entered the
00:15:03.600 --> 00:15:06.949
water industry and similarly really
00:15:06.959 --> 00:15:09.110
just fell in love with the with the
00:15:09.120 --> 00:15:11.750
quality of the character of of water
00:15:11.760 --> 00:15:13.990
professionals. But the thing that really
00:15:14.000 --> 00:15:17.110
always stuck out to me was how
00:15:17.120 --> 00:15:19.670
so many technologies we we try to
00:15:19.680 --> 00:15:22.550
normalize things and make them universal
00:15:22.560 --> 00:15:26.629
and scale. But with with this, it's so
00:15:26.639 --> 00:15:29.030
important to understand that they are
00:15:29.040 --> 00:15:31.590
keepers of their place, whether that's a
00:15:31.600 --> 00:15:34.310
water utility in a town or a city or a
00:15:34.320 --> 00:15:37.189
tribe. That like place
00:15:37.199 --> 00:15:39.110
matters not just because it matters to
00:15:39.120 --> 00:15:41.030
them from an internal value standpoint,
00:15:41.040 --> 00:15:43.430
but like the source of the water, the
00:15:43.440 --> 00:15:45.910
chemistry, all of that is just has to be
00:15:45.920 --> 00:15:49.670
taken into account. Um, and um, it's
00:15:49.680 --> 00:15:51.350
it's one of the things that I really
00:15:51.360 --> 00:15:53.350
love about
00:15:53.360 --> 00:15:56.790
water in general is that it takes on the
00:15:56.800 --> 00:15:58.389
characteristics of the place and it
00:15:58.399 --> 00:16:00.710
makes us grapple with like how are we
00:16:00.720 --> 00:16:04.150
going to honor it, value it, use it, all
00:16:04.160 --> 00:16:05.749
those things and it forces us to have
00:16:05.759 --> 00:16:07.990
really important conversations. Um,
00:16:08.000 --> 00:16:08.470
>> yeah.
00:16:08.480 --> 00:16:10.389
>> Yeah. Yeah. Place is super important.
00:16:10.399 --> 00:16:12.629
and that story and your like perspective
00:16:12.639 --> 00:16:15.670
on it Isaac. Uh bringing me back, you
00:16:15.680 --> 00:16:17.829
know, in in uh to to water
00:16:17.839 --> 00:16:19.829
communications and relations. So Rogue's
00:16:19.839 --> 00:16:22.310
work is with utilities on that. And so
00:16:22.320 --> 00:16:24.870
many times people want templates. What
00:16:24.880 --> 00:16:26.389
is the template for how I communicate
00:16:26.399 --> 00:16:28.550
about lead? What is the template for how
00:16:28.560 --> 00:16:30.710
I talk to an angry customer?
00:16:30.720 --> 00:16:32.230
>> Where do you live? What's that
00:16:32.240 --> 00:16:33.590
customer's background? What did they
00:16:33.600 --> 00:16:35.749
experience growing up? Like there is so
00:16:35.759 --> 00:16:38.790
much more human to this work. And in a
00:16:38.800 --> 00:16:41.990
world of engineering and technology and
00:16:42.000 --> 00:16:45.030
numbers where things uh I forgot how you
00:16:45.040 --> 00:16:47.590
just worded it but uh try to
00:16:47.600 --> 00:16:50.710
>> yeah we design things for scale but not
00:16:50.720 --> 00:16:53.910
for specificity or relevance. engagement
00:16:53.920 --> 00:16:56.150
needs to be specific. And so that's one
00:16:56.160 --> 00:16:57.829
been one of my biggest struggles in just
00:16:57.839 --> 00:16:59.990
working with the industry on this is
00:17:00.000 --> 00:17:02.629
trying to meet the need for yes, there
00:17:02.639 --> 00:17:04.230
are some general things we can talk
00:17:04.240 --> 00:17:05.829
about on how to communicate and engage
00:17:05.839 --> 00:17:08.390
better versus the actual need if you
00:17:08.400 --> 00:17:10.150
want to build a relationship and trust
00:17:10.160 --> 00:17:13.270
is uh individualization and and that is
00:17:13.280 --> 00:17:15.429
such a great story and example. Shannon,
00:17:15.439 --> 00:17:17.750
>> thanks. Yeah, one of the simple things
00:17:17.760 --> 00:17:19.750
that I've learned is that people really
00:17:19.760 --> 00:17:22.390
appreciate when you learn what is their
00:17:22.400 --> 00:17:24.949
word or term for water.
00:17:24.959 --> 00:17:26.710
>> So, you just know that. Just don't show
00:17:26.720 --> 00:17:28.470
up and call it water. If you show that
00:17:28.480 --> 00:17:30.070
you've done some research and you
00:17:30.080 --> 00:17:32.390
actually know how they regard it, that
00:17:32.400 --> 00:17:35.750
goes far. And I think showing up is just
00:17:35.760 --> 00:17:37.510
like that's a huge part of it. Just how
00:17:37.520 --> 00:17:39.750
do you show up in that community? It's
00:17:39.760 --> 00:17:42.070
not just tribal communities. I can give
00:17:42.080 --> 00:17:45.110
you an example and this is really I I
00:17:45.120 --> 00:17:47.110
don't want to throw anyone under the
00:17:47.120 --> 00:17:50.470
bus. This was an honest mistake that was
00:17:50.480 --> 00:17:54.710
made. Um I was really honored to tell an
00:17:54.720 --> 00:17:58.150
in-depth story in Loun County, Alabama
00:17:58.160 --> 00:18:00.870
um with the government and Loun County
00:18:00.880 --> 00:18:05.669
has had since the 70s toxic toxic water.
00:18:05.679 --> 00:18:08.710
There aren't kids born without hookworm,
00:18:08.720 --> 00:18:10.630
put it that way. And this has been going
00:18:10.640 --> 00:18:12.710
on for decades because you've got
00:18:12.720 --> 00:18:16.310
roughly four I think it's 475 roughly uh
00:18:16.320 --> 00:18:18.710
households that have raw sewage in their
00:18:18.720 --> 00:18:22.310
backyard and when they are giving their
00:18:22.320 --> 00:18:24.630
baby a bath sometimes the sewage will
00:18:24.640 --> 00:18:27.270
bubble up in the sink and we saw it
00:18:27.280 --> 00:18:29.909
firsthand um throughout the county. It
00:18:29.919 --> 00:18:32.630
is an unbelievable story. We we filmed
00:18:32.640 --> 00:18:35.270
creepy crawies in the water in people's
00:18:35.280 --> 00:18:38.710
backyards and it was just absolutely
00:18:38.720 --> 00:18:42.390
>> just unbelievable. And so uh we come to
00:18:42.400 --> 00:18:44.470
the community and because it was an
00:18:44.480 --> 00:18:47.350
extensive long documentary that we were
00:18:47.360 --> 00:18:49.590
making about this for the government um
00:18:49.600 --> 00:18:51.510
a lot of the officials wanted to come
00:18:51.520 --> 00:18:54.150
and um that's a benefit also of working
00:18:54.160 --> 00:18:56.070
in media is because you're used to
00:18:56.080 --> 00:18:57.590
dealing with a lot of people. You can
00:18:57.600 --> 00:19:00.310
often bring people in who have not been
00:19:00.320 --> 00:19:03.110
successful in coming into a certain
00:19:03.120 --> 00:19:04.710
community. They don't know how to do it.
00:19:04.720 --> 00:19:07.590
And so I'm always happy to serve in that
00:19:07.600 --> 00:19:09.350
role and I always clear it with people
00:19:09.360 --> 00:19:11.190
on the other end first. But it's been a
00:19:11.200 --> 00:19:13.590
really actually quite amazing experience
00:19:13.600 --> 00:19:16.230
doing that. So when we show up in Loun
00:19:16.240 --> 00:19:19.029
County though, um we had a bunch of
00:19:19.039 --> 00:19:21.029
black SUVs
00:19:21.039 --> 00:19:23.669
and so all of these people pull up in
00:19:23.679 --> 00:19:26.230
these and people literally were running
00:19:26.240 --> 00:19:28.870
in their houses. People were locking the
00:19:28.880 --> 00:19:32.150
doors, closing the curtains. It was like
00:19:32.160 --> 00:19:34.710
a movie where people are just scattering
00:19:34.720 --> 00:19:36.630
only to find out that you can be
00:19:36.640 --> 00:19:39.029
arrested in that community for not
00:19:39.039 --> 00:19:42.870
having your sewer up to par and no one
00:19:42.880 --> 00:19:45.190
can afford to replace their sewage
00:19:45.200 --> 00:19:47.669
systems there and so they all thought
00:19:47.679 --> 00:19:49.830
that they were going to be arrested. So
00:19:49.840 --> 00:19:51.830
how apt do you think people are going to
00:19:51.840 --> 00:19:54.549
be to have a conversation? So, um,
00:19:54.559 --> 00:19:56.150
again, it's just that how are you
00:19:56.160 --> 00:19:58.230
showing up in a community? And sometimes
00:19:58.240 --> 00:20:00.710
these mistakes can't be avoided and
00:20:00.720 --> 00:20:03.590
sometimes they can. Um, that one was
00:20:03.600 --> 00:20:06.230
really quite tricky um because of the
00:20:06.240 --> 00:20:07.830
trust level. And then you say, "Oh, by
00:20:07.840 --> 00:20:08.789
the way, and they're from the
00:20:08.799 --> 00:20:10.230
government, these people, you know,
00:20:10.240 --> 00:20:11.350
they're they're from the federal
00:20:11.360 --> 00:20:13.110
government." And see how that goes over
00:20:13.120 --> 00:20:15.510
in some communities where there have
00:20:15.520 --> 00:20:18.310
been, you know, struggles historically.
00:20:18.320 --> 00:20:21.510
Um that particular story um just being
00:20:21.520 --> 00:20:23.590
there by the way I will never forget
00:20:23.600 --> 00:20:26.470
that that was just shocking and I got
00:20:26.480 --> 00:20:28.549
hooked by even though I was wearing
00:20:28.559 --> 00:20:31.830
waves and everything I got sick a number
00:20:31.840 --> 00:20:34.230
of us got sick and it's not pleasant and
00:20:34.240 --> 00:20:37.029
and my mind didn't work for about 3
00:20:37.039 --> 00:20:39.029
weeks where I could tell I had cognitive
00:20:39.039 --> 00:20:41.909
issues and then you you know hear things
00:20:41.919 --> 00:20:44.549
about test scores in that area being low
00:20:44.559 --> 00:20:47.029
with the kids etc. And it's like we need
00:20:47.039 --> 00:20:49.110
to really look at the role that water
00:20:49.120 --> 00:20:53.750
plays in every facet of an area because
00:20:53.760 --> 00:20:55.909
of course if you can't think clearly
00:20:55.919 --> 00:20:57.830
because you've got hookworm or whatever
00:20:57.840 --> 00:21:00.070
that may be uh yeah you're not going to
00:21:00.080 --> 00:21:02.230
be testing so great.
00:21:02.240 --> 00:21:03.190
>> Um
00:21:03.200 --> 00:21:05.110
>> these are important things to notice.
00:21:05.120 --> 00:21:06.789
>> Yeah. And and I think that story too,
00:21:06.799 --> 00:21:08.630
just the interconnectedness of policies
00:21:08.640 --> 00:21:10.710
and outcomes and are we thinking like
00:21:10.720 --> 00:21:12.470
when policies or rules and regulations
00:21:12.480 --> 00:21:14.310
are met, whether that's at a utility or
00:21:14.320 --> 00:21:16.310
county or or bigger level. Are we
00:21:16.320 --> 00:21:18.710
thinking about the actual impact and
00:21:18.720 --> 00:21:20.470
then wondering why no one will talk to
00:21:20.480 --> 00:21:22.549
us, right? I think that's really good.
00:21:22.559 --> 00:21:26.230
That also reminds me of um the story I
00:21:26.240 --> 00:21:28.310
wanted to share about a moment at
00:21:28.320 --> 00:21:31.909
Catalyst 2024 with you and this moment
00:21:31.919 --> 00:21:33.830
has stuck with me. There were a lot of
00:21:33.840 --> 00:21:35.430
you had two different roles there and it
00:21:35.440 --> 00:21:37.350
was just um really really great a lot of
00:21:37.360 --> 00:21:39.830
great feedback but one was at the very
00:21:39.840 --> 00:21:42.310
end and I didn't even fully know what
00:21:42.320 --> 00:21:44.230
you were going to do um because I just
00:21:44.240 --> 00:21:48.549
trusted you I guess um and you read
00:21:48.559 --> 00:21:50.549
letters from customers and when I heard
00:21:50.559 --> 00:21:52.710
you say you were going to do that and I
00:21:52.720 --> 00:21:54.870
had known some of your um work because
00:21:54.880 --> 00:21:56.630
we had talked and and I think I had you
00:21:56.640 --> 00:21:59.830
on a podcast and stuff too um I was like
00:21:59.840 --> 00:22:01.830
oh crap like she's gonna it's going to
00:22:01.840 --> 00:22:03.830
be these angry customers that had these
00:22:03.840 --> 00:22:05.909
really bad experiences because why would
00:22:05.919 --> 00:22:07.510
someone not be angry with some of these
00:22:07.520 --> 00:22:09.750
experience that you've been able um to
00:22:09.760 --> 00:22:12.149
report on or tell about. But that's not
00:22:12.159 --> 00:22:14.710
what you brought us. Like they were um
00:22:14.720 --> 00:22:18.230
very heartfelt letters and I don't know
00:22:18.240 --> 00:22:19.830
if you remember any of them but this
00:22:19.840 --> 00:22:22.149
from customers thanking the water
00:22:22.159 --> 00:22:25.350
sector. And when I tell you multiple
00:22:25.360 --> 00:22:28.630
teary eyes in that room because our
00:22:28.640 --> 00:22:30.549
people don't get thanked and they are
00:22:30.559 --> 00:22:33.750
going to work every day in you know
00:22:33.760 --> 00:22:35.270
different communities that's not the
00:22:35.280 --> 00:22:37.830
example you just gave to protect public
00:22:37.840 --> 00:22:39.750
health and ensure these things are not
00:22:39.760 --> 00:22:42.310
happening and it it was right up at the
00:22:42.320 --> 00:22:44.230
ending of catalyst which is a big deal
00:22:44.240 --> 00:22:47.270
for us of how we end. And um I
00:22:47.280 --> 00:22:49.110
distinctly remember one I was like
00:22:49.120 --> 00:22:50.549
looking at the room and I was like, "Oh
00:22:50.559 --> 00:22:52.070
wow." Like everyone's really in their
00:22:52.080 --> 00:22:54.470
moment. So we and Catalyst were outside
00:22:54.480 --> 00:22:58.950
and the uh the attorney for Detroit
00:22:58.960 --> 00:23:01.270
Water comes up to me and just balling
00:23:01.280 --> 00:23:04.390
just balling u and just giving me a hug.
00:23:04.400 --> 00:23:06.950
And so one I thought that was so special
00:23:06.960 --> 00:23:09.190
um of you being able to bring that to
00:23:09.200 --> 00:23:11.190
us. Um so I don't know if you remember
00:23:11.200 --> 00:23:12.630
anything specifically about that. I know
00:23:12.640 --> 00:23:14.070
one was from a kid and that was kind of
00:23:14.080 --> 00:23:16.630
funny. Um,
00:23:16.640 --> 00:23:19.830
>> yeah, I completely forgot uh about doing
00:23:19.840 --> 00:23:21.990
that and I should pull those out because
00:23:22.000 --> 00:23:24.149
I still have copies of those letters.
00:23:24.159 --> 00:23:26.549
But I just remember this one elderly
00:23:26.559 --> 00:23:30.630
woman who had said um you know, you guys
00:23:30.640 --> 00:23:32.870
have the most important job of all. And
00:23:32.880 --> 00:23:35.350
and the way she looked at it is um
00:23:35.360 --> 00:23:37.270
caring for water is as important as
00:23:37.280 --> 00:23:40.950
caring for an infant um or an elderly
00:23:40.960 --> 00:23:43.110
family member. it's a it's a relative
00:23:43.120 --> 00:23:46.789
that really um matters and so the role
00:23:46.799 --> 00:23:49.430
of doing that is the most important role
00:23:49.440 --> 00:23:51.110
and that is how a lot of people look at
00:23:51.120 --> 00:23:52.549
it. Um
00:23:52.559 --> 00:23:54.070
>> the thing is that they just don't know
00:23:54.080 --> 00:23:56.549
who are these people and I really don't
00:23:56.559 --> 00:23:58.149
think most people think about the fact
00:23:58.159 --> 00:24:00.710
that there are actual people that are
00:24:00.720 --> 00:24:02.549
doing this work that are behind this
00:24:02.559 --> 00:24:04.390
work and making sure things get turned
00:24:04.400 --> 00:24:07.510
back on or whatever that may be. Uh it's
00:24:07.520 --> 00:24:10.070
it's just it's a fascinating thing and
00:24:10.080 --> 00:24:13.909
and how incredible if we were opening up
00:24:13.919 --> 00:24:16.230
those lines of communication so that the
00:24:16.240 --> 00:24:19.909
enduser could have that dialogue um with
00:24:19.919 --> 00:24:22.470
people. I actually coordinated the first
00:24:22.480 --> 00:24:25.350
ever listening session um for the
00:24:25.360 --> 00:24:28.310
government um between tribal water
00:24:28.320 --> 00:24:31.830
leadership and government officials.
00:24:31.840 --> 00:24:34.710
>> That was fascinating. Um, there were
00:24:34.720 --> 00:24:37.750
probably about 2,000 people that tuned
00:24:37.760 --> 00:24:41.750
in to the live event and it was really
00:24:41.760 --> 00:24:44.470
brave of the people involved in the
00:24:44.480 --> 00:24:47.269
government to say, um, yeah, we're going
00:24:47.279 --> 00:24:50.230
to listen and we're just going to listen
00:24:50.240 --> 00:24:52.230
>> to what you have to say about tribal
00:24:52.240 --> 00:24:54.870
water issues. And they really did have
00:24:54.880 --> 00:24:57.750
to listen to a lot. And a lot of it was,
00:24:57.760 --> 00:25:01.190
I would say 95% of it was constructive.
00:25:01.200 --> 00:25:03.990
one man went a little bit uh rogue on
00:25:04.000 --> 00:25:07.590
it. Um but um you know, you can
00:25:07.600 --> 00:25:09.590
understand when it's
00:25:09.600 --> 00:25:11.510
>> you know, years and years and years of
00:25:11.520 --> 00:25:13.190
these issues, but if we're not talking
00:25:13.200 --> 00:25:15.590
about them and not considering that
00:25:15.600 --> 00:25:18.230
there are actual human beings on those
00:25:18.240 --> 00:25:20.789
sides, um you know, we won't get
00:25:20.799 --> 00:25:22.950
anywhere. And so I'm I'm really blessed
00:25:22.960 --> 00:25:25.590
with this work I'm able to do. Yeah,
00:25:25.600 --> 00:25:27.830
that goes back to that aspect of like
00:25:27.840 --> 00:25:30.149
where you're talking about how how you
00:25:30.159 --> 00:25:32.549
show up matters and the posture that you
00:25:32.559 --> 00:25:35.750
take. And I it's
00:25:35.760 --> 00:25:37.830
we've talked about it a lot with a lot
00:25:37.840 --> 00:25:41.269
of our guests like we know it's so hard
00:25:41.279 --> 00:25:44.789
to slow down and make the space to
00:25:44.799 --> 00:25:47.269
listen to do the listening part of the
00:25:47.279 --> 00:25:51.269
communications. Um, so that you have
00:25:51.279 --> 00:25:53.110
awareness of how how you're going to
00:25:53.120 --> 00:25:56.390
have a conversation versus just here's
00:25:56.400 --> 00:25:58.710
what you need to know. Take our word for
00:25:58.720 --> 00:26:01.590
it. Trust us, check. Um,
00:26:01.600 --> 00:26:03.590
>> yes. Yes. And I'm so glad you're
00:26:03.600 --> 00:26:05.110
bringing that up because it is about
00:26:05.120 --> 00:26:06.870
slowing that down. And again, I
00:26:06.880 --> 00:26:09.430
recognize that people are so busy and
00:26:09.440 --> 00:26:12.310
they have very little time, but yes, how
00:26:12.320 --> 00:26:14.390
you show up matters. Simple, simple
00:26:14.400 --> 00:26:17.510
things. I cannot tell you how
00:26:17.520 --> 00:26:20.230
communities look at this one. Um, when
00:26:20.240 --> 00:26:23.110
you show up and they say, um, would you
00:26:23.120 --> 00:26:25.430
like a cup of coffee? So, that's a
00:26:25.440 --> 00:26:27.510
really simple example, but one that
00:26:27.520 --> 00:26:30.549
those of us who are in homes of of
00:26:30.559 --> 00:26:32.630
people across the country, you face that
00:26:32.640 --> 00:26:34.549
all the time. Okay. So, let's say you're
00:26:34.559 --> 00:26:35.990
walking into this home and you see that
00:26:36.000 --> 00:26:37.990
this person is impoverished. And I'll
00:26:38.000 --> 00:26:40.310
give you a very specific example of a
00:26:40.320 --> 00:26:42.789
home where I was doing a water story. um
00:26:42.799 --> 00:26:44.390
not for the government but for another
00:26:44.400 --> 00:26:46.870
purpose. And this woman, you could see
00:26:46.880 --> 00:26:50.230
that she was refilling her curig cups.
00:26:50.240 --> 00:26:53.029
She was refilling them with with coffee
00:26:53.039 --> 00:26:57.110
and remaking it in the machine. And so
00:26:57.120 --> 00:26:58.470
normally you'd be like, I don't want to
00:26:58.480 --> 00:27:00.870
take this woman's coffee, right?
00:27:00.880 --> 00:27:04.070
>> And so at first I said, no, this is
00:27:04.080 --> 00:27:05.669
years ago before I learned this
00:27:05.679 --> 00:27:08.310
important lesson. Um I said, oh no, no,
00:27:08.320 --> 00:27:09.669
thank you. I've already had coffee
00:27:09.679 --> 00:27:13.190
today. She immediately changed and she
00:27:13.200 --> 00:27:15.590
just seemed really weird and I just
00:27:15.600 --> 00:27:17.190
said, "You know what? On second thought,
00:27:17.200 --> 00:27:19.269
if we have time, I would love a cup of
00:27:19.279 --> 00:27:20.310
coffee."
00:27:20.320 --> 00:27:23.029
>> And she just immediately brightened. She
00:27:23.039 --> 00:27:25.510
said, "I was so offended that you didn't
00:27:25.520 --> 00:27:27.350
want my coffee."
00:27:27.360 --> 00:27:29.430
>> She looked at it as that her coffee
00:27:29.440 --> 00:27:31.350
wasn't good enough for this person
00:27:31.360 --> 00:27:35.269
coming from Los Angeles. Um, also some
00:27:35.279 --> 00:27:37.110
people are really
00:27:37.120 --> 00:27:39.430
>> excited even to welcome you into their
00:27:39.440 --> 00:27:41.590
life and their work. They're offering
00:27:41.600 --> 00:27:42.870
you a cookie.
00:27:42.880 --> 00:27:44.710
>> Um, they they might have made that
00:27:44.720 --> 00:27:47.990
cookie for you and to turn it down is
00:27:48.000 --> 00:27:50.710
not a gracious move as you may think it
00:27:50.720 --> 00:27:52.630
is given whatever that situation is
00:27:52.640 --> 00:27:55.750
you're walking into. And so, um, yeah,
00:27:55.760 --> 00:27:58.710
I've I've done all kinds of things. I've
00:27:58.720 --> 00:28:01.669
I've changed diapers uh while on a a
00:28:01.679 --> 00:28:03.750
shoot about water. It's just it's just
00:28:03.760 --> 00:28:05.830
how do you interact and and
00:28:05.840 --> 00:28:07.830
understanding what that community comes
00:28:07.840 --> 00:28:09.830
from and they are all very very
00:28:09.840 --> 00:28:11.430
different.
00:28:11.440 --> 00:28:13.669
>> Yes. The power of being able to say I
00:28:13.679 --> 00:28:16.470
can receive from you too. Like it it's
00:28:16.480 --> 00:28:18.789
that aspect of being like I'm not here
00:28:18.799 --> 00:28:21.029
just to
00:28:21.039 --> 00:28:22.070
>> exactly
00:28:22.080 --> 00:28:25.830
>> to say I have something you need. It's
00:28:25.840 --> 00:28:28.149
I'm willing to receive too. Um,
00:28:28.159 --> 00:28:29.830
>> yeah, we're we're
00:28:29.840 --> 00:28:31.990
>> and listening, building that extra,
00:28:32.000 --> 00:28:34.389
sorry, Chelsea, building that extra to
00:28:34.399 --> 00:28:37.909
listen and to really learn their story.
00:28:37.919 --> 00:28:39.830
Very few people, you know, we're sitting
00:28:39.840 --> 00:28:41.510
here on a podcast where people who are
00:28:41.520 --> 00:28:44.310
in these interactive roles where people
00:28:44.320 --> 00:28:46.630
are talking to us a lot. A lot of people
00:28:46.640 --> 00:28:49.029
are lonely and a lot of people have no
00:28:49.039 --> 00:28:51.430
one ask them, "What is your day like?
00:28:51.440 --> 00:28:53.110
What is your life like? What has this
00:28:53.120 --> 00:28:55.350
experience been?" And so just
00:28:55.360 --> 00:28:57.750
acknowledging that and spending that
00:28:57.760 --> 00:28:59.830
time to build relationships, that's
00:28:59.840 --> 00:29:02.070
really really important in tribal
00:29:02.080 --> 00:29:04.549
waterwork. It's important especially in
00:29:04.559 --> 00:29:07.029
the south. I find uh many of these
00:29:07.039 --> 00:29:09.430
communities in the deep south, it's the
00:29:09.440 --> 00:29:11.430
old traditional way of doing things
00:29:11.440 --> 00:29:13.510
where you're building relationships. And
00:29:13.520 --> 00:29:15.909
as hard as it might be to add in that
00:29:15.919 --> 00:29:19.430
extra 45 minutes, an hour even to that
00:29:19.440 --> 00:29:23.110
meeting, um it it will just pay off in
00:29:23.120 --> 00:29:25.269
ways that you would never know.
00:29:25.279 --> 00:29:27.909
>> I'm so glad you said all of that and I
00:29:27.919 --> 00:29:29.830
just really hope people are hearing that
00:29:29.840 --> 00:29:32.070
and connecting with it right now. I also
00:29:32.080 --> 00:29:33.190
know there's probably some people
00:29:33.200 --> 00:29:35.430
hearing it and thinking I don't have
00:29:35.440 --> 00:29:39.590
that time or just utterly scared at
00:29:39.600 --> 00:29:41.430
thinking, oh, what would I do if I were
00:29:41.440 --> 00:29:43.669
in some of these um examples where
00:29:43.679 --> 00:29:46.310
Shannon was and I was having to relate.
00:29:46.320 --> 00:29:48.549
Um so I was one like to validate that I
00:29:48.559 --> 00:29:50.549
get work the work is scary like talking
00:29:50.559 --> 00:29:52.710
to people, listening to people. This is
00:29:52.720 --> 00:29:54.470
scary stuff and I hate that we call it
00:29:54.480 --> 00:29:56.149
soft skills because it's it's really
00:29:56.159 --> 00:29:58.310
hard. It's really important. But it also
00:29:58.320 --> 00:29:59.590
reminds me of the importance of
00:29:59.600 --> 00:30:01.909
partnership. So, Rogue Water Lab has
00:30:01.919 --> 00:30:03.350
four pillars of public trust. We've
00:30:03.360 --> 00:30:04.789
talked about almost all of them today.
00:30:04.799 --> 00:30:07.430
It's transparency, relationships,
00:30:07.440 --> 00:30:08.789
showing up, which we've talked a lot
00:30:08.799 --> 00:30:11.430
about. Um, and earning advocates. And
00:30:11.440 --> 00:30:13.110
that's where the partnerships come in.
00:30:13.120 --> 00:30:15.669
You've demonstrated a great example of,
00:30:15.679 --> 00:30:17.430
you know, maybe we're not always the
00:30:17.440 --> 00:30:20.630
best welcoming, friendly messengers just
00:30:20.640 --> 00:30:23.990
based off either our um people's
00:30:24.000 --> 00:30:26.630
experiences or things like your utility
00:30:26.640 --> 00:30:29.590
or your company or whatever. um past
00:30:29.600 --> 00:30:32.230
experiences, right? Or just traditional
00:30:32.240 --> 00:30:34.710
we we haven't been out engaging. And so
00:30:34.720 --> 00:30:36.389
that's where we need to be working with
00:30:36.399 --> 00:30:37.830
partners, whether it's someone like
00:30:37.840 --> 00:30:40.630
Shannon, whether it's a school, whether
00:30:40.640 --> 00:30:43.269
it's just the community advocate that
00:30:43.279 --> 00:30:44.950
everyone knows in that neighborhood from
00:30:44.960 --> 00:30:47.830
the grocery store, right? Um and I know
00:30:47.840 --> 00:30:50.470
that that's been, you know, the same in
00:30:50.480 --> 00:30:54.470
your work. I'm also curious more about
00:30:54.480 --> 00:30:56.070
some of that work. you really went all
00:30:56.080 --> 00:30:57.909
across the nation telling the water
00:30:57.919 --> 00:31:02.310
affordability story. Um, and just how
00:31:02.320 --> 00:31:04.630
some I think you know the water sector
00:31:04.640 --> 00:31:06.870
would be curious how some of those
00:31:06.880 --> 00:31:09.110
residents who were having affordability
00:31:09.120 --> 00:31:11.029
issues and and we're getting some help
00:31:11.039 --> 00:31:12.549
from that temporary unfortunately
00:31:12.559 --> 00:31:15.510
program but just how they viewed uh
00:31:15.520 --> 00:31:17.350
their utility providers or what they
00:31:17.360 --> 00:31:19.510
even what what they call you know how
00:31:19.520 --> 00:31:21.190
that relationship was in some of those
00:31:21.200 --> 00:31:24.230
places you were
00:31:24.240 --> 00:31:26.070
>> I've heard them called all sorts of
00:31:26.080 --> 00:31:29.350
things. Um obviously when it's a person
00:31:29.360 --> 00:31:32.070
whose inner rears on their bill. Um, I
00:31:32.080 --> 00:31:35.190
can tell you that underneath the anger,
00:31:35.200 --> 00:31:37.190
and I've I've been there when someone's
00:31:37.200 --> 00:31:40.389
gone off on the the other side of it,
00:31:40.399 --> 00:31:42.149
um, telling the story when we show up
00:31:42.159 --> 00:31:44.310
and and that water provider is actually
00:31:44.320 --> 00:31:46.310
there on site. I've been in those
00:31:46.320 --> 00:31:48.870
awkward situations where the person just
00:31:48.880 --> 00:31:52.789
goes off, the customer. Um, but
00:31:52.799 --> 00:31:55.669
underneath all of that is almost always
00:31:55.679 --> 00:31:59.029
this this shame. I I saw a lot of shame,
00:31:59.039 --> 00:32:00.950
just a tremendous amount of shame, which
00:32:00.960 --> 00:32:04.070
is really unfortunate um in this work.
00:32:04.080 --> 00:32:05.029
Um
00:32:05.039 --> 00:32:05.590
>> yeah,
00:32:05.600 --> 00:32:08.549
>> across the country, in every different
00:32:08.559 --> 00:32:11.110
type of community, not just rural, not
00:32:11.120 --> 00:32:14.070
just tribal um you know, people in
00:32:14.080 --> 00:32:16.310
cities that for whatever reason got
00:32:16.320 --> 00:32:18.870
behind on their bills and underneath
00:32:18.880 --> 00:32:22.789
that is a frustration and again um a
00:32:22.799 --> 00:32:25.669
lack of understanding what it takes. I
00:32:25.679 --> 00:32:28.789
got to learn what it takes um just to
00:32:28.799 --> 00:32:31.269
get water coming through that faucet.
00:32:31.279 --> 00:32:34.549
But most people, I would say 99.9%
00:32:34.559 --> 00:32:37.430
of the public has no idea. And I think
00:32:37.440 --> 00:32:40.070
if on the water side, if people were
00:32:40.080 --> 00:32:42.710
spending more time in getting out that
00:32:42.720 --> 00:32:45.110
message on really what it takes. People
00:32:45.120 --> 00:32:46.710
just don't understand it. And once
00:32:46.720 --> 00:32:48.470
there's an understanding, that's where I
00:32:48.480 --> 00:32:50.470
see that magic happening and these
00:32:50.480 --> 00:32:53.190
really uh important conversations that
00:32:53.200 --> 00:32:56.310
do shift things and everyone can walk
00:32:56.320 --> 00:32:58.710
out of those meetings feeling great.
00:32:58.720 --> 00:33:01.269
I've seen it repeatedly, but I've seen
00:33:01.279 --> 00:33:03.669
what it looks like in the beginning. And
00:33:03.679 --> 00:33:06.789
if you're not a person who has um had
00:33:06.799 --> 00:33:08.630
much experience and how to talk with
00:33:08.640 --> 00:33:09.750
different types of people, how to
00:33:09.760 --> 00:33:13.110
diffuse really awful situations, I
00:33:13.120 --> 00:33:14.789
understand that that would be horrible.
00:33:14.799 --> 00:33:17.190
But to Chelsea's point, that is the role
00:33:17.200 --> 00:33:19.190
of partnering with people. You know,
00:33:19.200 --> 00:33:20.870
there are those of us who are happily
00:33:20.880 --> 00:33:22.870
serve in that role. I don't want to call
00:33:22.880 --> 00:33:25.990
it mediation. It's bridge building and
00:33:26.000 --> 00:33:27.830
serving as that bridge between the
00:33:27.840 --> 00:33:29.990
worlds. That's how I look at myself and
00:33:30.000 --> 00:33:32.950
what I do. And and um you know, finding
00:33:32.960 --> 00:33:35.350
a way to work with those people and then
00:33:35.360 --> 00:33:37.430
you'll know it for your own you know,
00:33:37.440 --> 00:33:39.269
sake. You can do it on your own, but I
00:33:39.279 --> 00:33:42.389
get that it's scary. I've been told by
00:33:42.399 --> 00:33:44.630
water operators and people at various
00:33:44.640 --> 00:33:47.110
levels dealing with water, working in
00:33:47.120 --> 00:33:50.389
water, um just they're terrified at
00:33:50.399 --> 00:33:52.470
going into certain communities or
00:33:52.480 --> 00:33:55.750
talking to people in general. And I see
00:33:55.760 --> 00:33:58.389
the difference in communities where the
00:33:58.399 --> 00:34:01.350
people actually are wellversed in
00:34:01.360 --> 00:34:03.269
speaking with their customers. Atlanta
00:34:03.279 --> 00:34:06.310
comes to mind. I did a story in Atlanta
00:34:06.320 --> 00:34:08.629
and um you know that guy actually knew
00:34:08.639 --> 00:34:10.470
the customers. He would come out, I'm
00:34:10.480 --> 00:34:11.829
blanking on his name, he was so
00:34:11.839 --> 00:34:14.230
wonderful. And he he knew the people by
00:34:14.240 --> 00:34:15.750
name. He knew the people who were
00:34:15.760 --> 00:34:18.069
struggling and who were trying to fix
00:34:18.079 --> 00:34:20.710
things, etc. And I I know it's a huge
00:34:20.720 --> 00:34:24.069
busy um community, but you know, just to
00:34:24.079 --> 00:34:26.550
take that time to give that human face
00:34:26.560 --> 00:34:29.990
and to show the care. Um, usually that's
00:34:30.000 --> 00:34:32.550
where it ends up once there's the
00:34:32.560 --> 00:34:34.950
discussion. But I think we get stuck at
00:34:34.960 --> 00:34:37.829
not having that discussion and therefore
00:34:37.839 --> 00:34:39.909
the customer feels like
00:34:39.919 --> 00:34:42.149
>> I can't pay my effing bill. What What do
00:34:42.159 --> 00:34:43.589
you want me to do? There's there's
00:34:43.599 --> 00:34:45.270
nothing I can do about it. And
00:34:45.280 --> 00:34:45.589
>> yeah,
00:34:45.599 --> 00:34:48.389
>> I've um gone along on stories where
00:34:48.399 --> 00:34:50.389
people are stealing water. I have
00:34:50.399 --> 00:34:52.790
accompanied people. That's a thing. the
00:34:52.800 --> 00:34:54.629
amount of shame involved with that with
00:34:54.639 --> 00:34:56.149
having to go and,
00:34:56.159 --> 00:34:59.589
>> you know, take from a hose and and um I
00:34:59.599 --> 00:35:01.270
I'll never forget a story in North
00:35:01.280 --> 00:35:05.270
Carolina um this amazing mother of two
00:35:05.280 --> 00:35:08.470
teenage boys and her absolute shame with
00:35:08.480 --> 00:35:10.550
for the first time in her life due to a
00:35:10.560 --> 00:35:13.030
medical condition um not being able to
00:35:13.040 --> 00:35:15.589
pay her bills and having the water cut
00:35:15.599 --> 00:35:19.670
off and just the the shame she felt
00:35:19.680 --> 00:35:21.829
around that and tried to shield her boys
00:35:21.839 --> 00:35:23.750
from the truth of what was happening.
00:35:23.760 --> 00:35:24.470
And
00:35:24.480 --> 00:35:26.150
>> you know, that's the reality for a lot
00:35:26.160 --> 00:35:27.510
of people.
00:35:27.520 --> 00:35:29.349
>> And there's also the people who live I
00:35:29.359 --> 00:35:31.589
live in a beautiful neighborhood um here
00:35:31.599 --> 00:35:34.390
in Los Angeles. And um you know, we've
00:35:34.400 --> 00:35:35.829
been having some burst pipes here
00:35:35.839 --> 00:35:37.589
because I don't need to educate any of
00:35:37.599 --> 00:35:39.430
your listeners about the infrastructure
00:35:39.440 --> 00:35:42.150
and the age of our systems. And we've
00:35:42.160 --> 00:35:44.150
been having burst pipes. We had on our
00:35:44.160 --> 00:35:47.270
street burst pipes some months back. So
00:35:47.280 --> 00:35:49.349
this construction that went on for weeks
00:35:49.359 --> 00:35:51.829
and this pounding and you know the whole
00:35:51.839 --> 00:35:53.910
house shaking that sort of thing and
00:35:53.920 --> 00:35:56.550
again it's about communicating.
00:35:56.560 --> 00:35:59.990
There was one man who worked on that job
00:36:00.000 --> 00:36:02.710
and um you know he actually talked to
00:36:02.720 --> 00:36:05.670
people and was really honest and I think
00:36:05.680 --> 00:36:07.750
that's goes to your transparency point
00:36:07.760 --> 00:36:10.230
Chelsea um about being transparent. He
00:36:10.240 --> 00:36:12.950
said um yeah the letter said it's going
00:36:12.960 --> 00:36:15.670
to take three weeks. it's really gonna
00:36:15.680 --> 00:36:18.150
take six weeks. You need to be prepared
00:36:18.160 --> 00:36:20.790
and just that honesty and and here's why
00:36:20.800 --> 00:36:23.589
and explaining the why of it
00:36:23.599 --> 00:36:25.910
>> and um I get that you probably don't
00:36:25.920 --> 00:36:27.829
have time to be doing that one-on-one
00:36:27.839 --> 00:36:30.710
with people, but what about if we were
00:36:30.720 --> 00:36:32.950
using the power of media and social
00:36:32.960 --> 00:36:36.630
media to make some transparent uh
00:36:36.640 --> 00:36:39.430
announcements for instance?
00:36:39.440 --> 00:36:41.589
>> I don't know. It's a it's a big topic
00:36:41.599 --> 00:36:43.750
and I understand it's it all comes with
00:36:43.760 --> 00:36:47.750
a cost but what is the expense not like
00:36:47.760 --> 00:36:49.990
I that's literally a line in some of my
00:36:50.000 --> 00:36:53.990
training if we look at the like at think
00:36:54.000 --> 00:36:56.390
of public trust as an asset and what's
00:36:56.400 --> 00:36:58.230
the cost of failure and yeah it's so
00:36:58.240 --> 00:37:00.310
good and I even think in a lot of your
00:37:00.320 --> 00:37:03.109
examples it makes me um sometimes I ask
00:37:03.119 --> 00:37:05.030
utilities when we put out these
00:37:05.040 --> 00:37:06.550
communications we're usually sitting
00:37:06.560 --> 00:37:09.430
behind a desk right what if we had to
00:37:09.440 --> 00:37:12.069
person to person, face to face, tell
00:37:12.079 --> 00:37:13.990
somebody these things. Like, we would
00:37:14.000 --> 00:37:16.150
talk completely differently. We would
00:37:16.160 --> 00:37:17.589
communicate and message completely
00:37:17.599 --> 00:37:19.750
differently. And so, yeah, sure, you
00:37:19.760 --> 00:37:21.030
might not have the time to do all this
00:37:21.040 --> 00:37:23.109
oneonone every time, but what if you
00:37:23.119 --> 00:37:24.790
just pause and look at all the different
00:37:24.800 --> 00:37:27.030
types of common communications and go
00:37:27.040 --> 00:37:29.510
deliver that personally and see what
00:37:29.520 --> 00:37:31.430
that might change about these templates
00:37:31.440 --> 00:37:33.589
we put out? Um, I think that one thing
00:37:33.599 --> 00:37:35.270
alone could really change the water
00:37:35.280 --> 00:37:35.829
sector.
00:37:35.839 --> 00:37:38.310
>> It would. I I'm convinced it would.
00:37:38.320 --> 00:37:40.790
Well, the last thing I wanted to ask you
00:37:40.800 --> 00:37:42.710
for the sake of time and you've kind of
00:37:42.720 --> 00:37:45.030
um you've given some answers to this uh
00:37:45.040 --> 00:37:47.829
but just curious if you have one more.
00:37:47.839 --> 00:37:49.829
>> You know, you again are really unique in
00:37:49.839 --> 00:37:51.829
that you relate to and have told the
00:37:51.839 --> 00:37:53.510
stories of the people and you relate to
00:37:53.520 --> 00:37:55.910
and have told the stories of the people
00:37:55.920 --> 00:37:59.190
working in water um to do this.
00:37:59.200 --> 00:38:01.910
What like one advice would you give them
00:38:01.920 --> 00:38:03.829
if they want to do some of the things
00:38:03.839 --> 00:38:06.150
that you've asked and talk about? Is
00:38:06.160 --> 00:38:08.069
there a tip or like one takeaway or
00:38:08.079 --> 00:38:09.670
advice from your experience that you
00:38:09.680 --> 00:38:11.109
would tell the water sector?
00:38:11.119 --> 00:38:14.710
>> Um, I guess just listen. Uh, I
00:38:14.720 --> 00:38:16.470
understand that if you're going into a
00:38:16.480 --> 00:38:19.270
community, uh, you're there to relay
00:38:19.280 --> 00:38:21.670
information or to gain information,
00:38:21.680 --> 00:38:23.829
whatever it is, but the importance of
00:38:23.839 --> 00:38:26.230
listening, just asking a question.
00:38:26.240 --> 00:38:28.790
Again, I know it sounds so simple, but
00:38:28.800 --> 00:38:30.856
coming into someone's life and
00:38:30.866 --> 00:38:32.150
[clears throat] asking them, what is
00:38:32.160 --> 00:38:35.109
your experience with water? what is has
00:38:35.119 --> 00:38:36.790
your experience been working with our
00:38:36.800 --> 00:38:39.750
utility and really listening to that and
00:38:39.760 --> 00:38:42.630
then trying to explain and it just it
00:38:42.640 --> 00:38:46.790
diffuses everything. It creates such a a
00:38:46.800 --> 00:38:50.310
just a better harmonious community and
00:38:50.320 --> 00:38:51.990
I've seen communities where they're
00:38:52.000 --> 00:38:54.630
doing it so well. I've seen I I can
00:38:54.640 --> 00:38:56.390
think of like uh in Delaware in
00:38:56.400 --> 00:38:58.390
Ellenale, Delaware where they're doing
00:38:58.400 --> 00:39:01.589
all of this water work and I've seen
00:39:01.599 --> 00:39:03.430
okay wow this is a community where now
00:39:03.440 --> 00:39:05.430
they're they've formed these community
00:39:05.440 --> 00:39:07.430
groups that are working with water and
00:39:07.440 --> 00:39:09.670
they meet with the people who are giving
00:39:09.680 --> 00:39:11.910
the new technology and all of them
00:39:11.920 --> 00:39:15.190
working together um you know I've been I
00:39:15.200 --> 00:39:17.750
think of like Aquacas Mohawk tribe in
00:39:17.760 --> 00:39:20.069
New York where again it's like that
00:39:20.079 --> 00:39:21.990
where you're meeting with the community
00:39:22.000 --> 00:39:23.910
the people who are actually making it
00:39:23.920 --> 00:39:27.190
happen are sitting down and listening
00:39:27.200 --> 00:39:29.190
and talking to the people who are
00:39:29.200 --> 00:39:31.670
actually using the utility. It's so
00:39:31.680 --> 00:39:35.030
simple and it is time consuming but it's
00:39:35.040 --> 00:39:37.430
so important. So I guess just listening
00:39:37.440 --> 00:39:40.550
and understanding that people don't want
00:39:40.560 --> 00:39:44.470
to be People don't want to not
00:39:44.480 --> 00:39:47.030
pay their bills. People don't want be
00:39:47.040 --> 00:39:49.510
calling and screaming.
00:39:49.520 --> 00:39:53.910
They want to have water and that is he
00:39:53.920 --> 00:39:56.230
to most people the belief is that that
00:39:56.240 --> 00:39:58.790
is a basic human right you know the
00:39:58.800 --> 00:40:01.190
whole um you know the the battlecry
00:40:01.200 --> 00:40:03.430
during the standing rock protest mini
00:40:03.440 --> 00:40:06.550
wony water is life you know living by
00:40:06.560 --> 00:40:08.790
that water is life and it's something we
00:40:08.800 --> 00:40:11.589
all need and so how can we work together
00:40:11.599 --> 00:40:14.950
to better care for that resource I think
00:40:14.960 --> 00:40:18.790
is the the best starting point
00:40:18.800 --> 00:40:20.630
Yeah,
00:40:20.640 --> 00:40:22.950
best starting point. And that is a great
00:40:22.960 --> 00:40:25.030
place to close our conversation. We
00:40:25.040 --> 00:40:27.990
could talk for for such a long time. I
00:40:28.000 --> 00:40:29.349
think what I've what I've really
00:40:29.359 --> 00:40:32.230
appreciated in in um talking to you too
00:40:32.240 --> 00:40:36.790
is just like it it is an exercise of of
00:40:36.800 --> 00:40:40.710
giving the gift of dignity to um to the
00:40:40.720 --> 00:40:44.790
folks that that you um allow allow them
00:40:44.800 --> 00:40:47.750
to have their story told. Um that's what
00:40:47.760 --> 00:40:49.430
I it seems like that's what a lot of
00:40:49.440 --> 00:40:51.190
people are looking for is like just
00:40:51.200 --> 00:40:53.910
looking for some dignity. Um I want my
00:40:53.920 --> 00:40:57.910
dignity. Um and um yeah, thank you for
00:40:57.920 --> 00:41:01.589
for all the work you do in leading that
00:41:01.599 --> 00:41:04.230
with so much empathy. Um and then
00:41:04.240 --> 00:41:06.630
bringing that um practice and
00:41:06.640 --> 00:41:08.950
encouragement. Before we close off,
00:41:08.960 --> 00:41:11.030
>> yeah, Shannon, if people are interested,
00:41:11.040 --> 00:41:13.190
where can they find you or or
00:41:13.200 --> 00:41:15.430
>> red queenmedia.com
00:41:15.440 --> 00:41:18.309
and um I have a Vimeo page. It's also
00:41:18.319 --> 00:41:20.230
red queen media. You can find that
00:41:20.240 --> 00:41:22.870
through the website though. And um I've
00:41:22.880 --> 00:41:25.589
got dozens of water stories there. And
00:41:25.599 --> 00:41:27.430
uh I love telling these stories. If
00:41:27.440 --> 00:41:29.510
there's anyone out there listening who's
00:41:29.520 --> 00:41:31.910
looking for either some sort of bridge
00:41:31.920 --> 00:41:35.270
building work and or media work, I I
00:41:35.280 --> 00:41:37.109
really miss that. As much as I love
00:41:37.119 --> 00:41:39.589
making this beautiful feature film, you
00:41:39.599 --> 00:41:41.829
know, with Leo and and other amazing
00:41:41.839 --> 00:41:44.150
people, um, you know, I really love
00:41:44.160 --> 00:41:45.990
being out in the field and and dealing
00:41:46.000 --> 00:41:47.109
with this most important
00:41:47.119 --> 00:41:48.790
>> and we just need more partners like you
00:41:48.800 --> 00:41:50.630
in our industry. So, I hope everyone
00:41:50.640 --> 00:41:53.030
listening to this feel figures out how
00:41:53.040 --> 00:41:55.030
they can fit Shannon into some of their
00:41:55.040 --> 00:41:57.030
work or um if they want to do this
00:41:57.040 --> 00:41:58.790
better, if they were inspired by this,
00:41:58.800 --> 00:42:01.349
highly recommend. And also, since this
00:42:01.359 --> 00:42:04.069
is the Catalyst Collab, um whenever
00:42:04.079 --> 00:42:05.510
you're hearing this, we usually do
00:42:05.520 --> 00:42:07.349
Catalyst in the fall of every year and
00:42:07.359 --> 00:42:09.510
we always bring in people like Shannon,
00:42:09.520 --> 00:42:11.190
people outside of the sector we can
00:42:11.200 --> 00:42:13.430
learn from. Um so if that's your thing,
00:42:13.440 --> 00:42:14.630
check it out. It'll be in the show
00:42:14.640 --> 00:42:15.349
notes.
00:42:15.359 --> 00:42:17.750
>> Yeah. Yeah. Thank you all so much for
00:42:17.760 --> 00:42:19.510
joining us and we can't wait to see you
00:42:19.520 --> 00:42:22.240
with our next