WEBVTT
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Hello my book butterflies and welcome to this next episode of the main chapter podcast.
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My name's Brigada and please be sure to like and subscribe so we can continue growing and spreading our love of books with the entire world.
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I just want to take a moment and say thank you to everyone because this is my first video since hitting a thousand subscribers, which is so exciting.
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It means so much to me.
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So thank you so much to all my book butterflies for like and subscribe and done any form of engagement.
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I am so grateful.
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I keep hope to continue growing my little butterfly family on here.
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We are celebrating this 1K milestone in style.
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I just got done interviewing Rose Bridgeville telling all about her new historical romance and the unknown birds.
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And I enjoyed this book so much.
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She takes her twin brothers place at the World War I description in the UK.
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So she goes into the British military as a man, and no one knows her secret.
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And she develops this really close relationship with a sniper named Alice Brother.
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So you see how they get to know each other, they interact, how they become each other's soft place to land, and then they are ripped apart from each other at the end of the war, and don't reunite until 20 years later, where he then learns that she's actually a woman.
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So it's dual timeline, and we get to see the different stages of the relationship.
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It's such an emotional, beautiful book, and also really interesting as well.
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Because I feel like in the US, we talk about World War II, the Revolutionary War, Civil War.
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And the World War I is just kind of glazed, but we don't really take down to it so learning more about the time period was so fascinating to me.
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And this book took Rose 13 years to write with six years worth of research.
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And she is so passionate, you can tell what's happening to her.
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I really enjoyed our conversation, and I hope you do as well.
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There are some spoilers, nothing too crazy that I think if you listen all the way through, it won't ruin the book for you.
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But if you want to skip around with these timestamps, please advise.
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And let's go ahead and roll the tape.
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Well, Rose, welcome to the main chapter.
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I'm so excited to have you.
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And as someone named Brianna Rose, I'm always happy to have another Rose on the show because it's a family name.
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But we are here to talk about the unknown birds.
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And I was telling you before this interview started, that was my first time reading historical romance in a very long time, if not ever.
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And I really, really enjoyed it and I'm really interested in the process behind it.
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So my first question for you is I saw that you said this book was 13 years in the making.
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So what was that first inspiration, that first spark?
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Yeah, well, first, thank you so much for having me on.
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I'm really excited to be here.
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Um, so I think the very first spark was probably the movie Gallipoli, which is a movie, it's actually one of Mel Gibson's movies, but it was directed by uh Peter Ware.
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Um, and I saw that movie.
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I wrote at least two papers on it in college, but it was about two trench runners during the war.
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And I think that that really stuck with me, their story.
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But so 13 years ago, when I first started writing this, um I was really enamored with the second season of Downton Abbey.
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That's the season when they all go to war.
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And I think that really sparked off the idea of a character um kind of somehow secretly going to war when they're not supposed to get there, and then what their life would be like kind of in the aftermath, and and what all that because I think Downton did a really good job of showing there was patriotic fervor and people who were like, Heck yes, I want to go.
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You know, you had the character William who was just devastated that he kept not getting to go, and you had characters like Thomas who were like, I don't want to do this, and they tried everything to not have to go.
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And it really did run the gamut of people who who wanted to be there and didn't want to be there, and and and threw together um so many, um, I think it broke down a lot of barriers in terms of of of um the the wealthy that were there and the and fighting side by side with people who had formerly been their servants.
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So that really kicked off the initial spark.
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Interesting.
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Down Abbey, my mother and grandmother love that show.
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They've watched it multiple times.
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I've never watched it in full, but I'm surrounded by Doubt and Abbey fangirl.
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So maybe that's why I was drawn to this book.
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And I saw that you initially put this book down and then picked it back up.
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So what made you stop writing it and then what called you to restart that process?
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Oh man, so I worked on it for longer than the war even lasted.
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It was originally not dual timeline, it was just straight through the war.
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And I spent at least six years on it.
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And I got to a point where I'd taken a lot of feedback.
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I had some wonderful critique partners, and then I had expanded and and kept asking different people for advice.
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And I got to a point where I knew it wasn't working, but I didn't know why it wasn't working, and I didn't really know how to fix it.
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And I just felt like it's time to move on and do something else.
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This this isn't gonna happen.
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And I was devastated, like I was heartbroken.
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I had done so much research and spent so much time with this book, and it was the third book I'd ever written, so it's just I just felt so sad.
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But I said, maybe it's not forever.
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I didn't really believe that, but that kind of comforted me as I put it away, and it's really never left me over the years.
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I actually have a huge painting on my wall in here of poppies that I had gotten while I was working on it, and that was always with me.
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And um as I got more comfortable writing romance, because it wasn't originally romance, um, as I got more comfortable writing romance over the last couple of years, I kind of had the thought, well, maybe someday I could bring that book back and do something with it.
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And I don't know what, obviously, as a romance, but I don't really know.
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Maybe something dual timeline.
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And I just kind of had that glimmer of an idea in the back of my head.
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And then last summer I had finished a first draft of the book I released back in May, and I wasn't ready to start revising it yet.
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So I thought, okay, that's a real book now.
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What am I gonna work on next?
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Maybe that.
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And I had just read a book, I don't remember if it was actually dual timeline.
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I it maybe a little bit, but something about that book, um, which was a contemporary book called Um, looking over at my bookshelf, Poetry by Denman, um, uh by Megan Shade.
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And there was just something about that book that I thought, I think I know how I could tell this story in a dual timeline way.
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And and I I got so excited about it all over again.
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It was like falling in love.
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It was so wonderful to be back in the world of this book.
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Oh my gosh.
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Well, first off, six years is crazy.
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I know you said that in the beginning.
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I've been holding on to that the entire time of your answer because I was like, oh my gosh, you can get a college degree and a master's in that time.
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That's like a first grade child.
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So I'm devastated to put something away after six years, especially as someone who feels like they have to complete things and see things through.
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So I feel like it's also a testament to your mental strength to be able to put it away and understand that it's not ready yet.
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But I do love that he made that change for dual timeline and the pacing of it too, especially in the beginning where the 1939 chapters are a little shorter and they're like little treats in between the World War One ones.
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So I thought it was a very well done change.
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And thank you.
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Of course.
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And so what really entertained me about the book was the research behind it because I think you even said in your author's note that we in the US we talk about World War I.
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You see, I read about it in elementary school, again in AP World History in high school, but I feel like it's not as focused on as like the Civil War, Revolutionary War, even World War II.
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So reading about it and then also seeing it through a British lens was really interesting for me.
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And what was that research process like for you?
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Oh my gosh.
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It was it, I mean, it's true.
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My grandfather um fought in World War II, and I think most of us kind of have that connection to World War II.
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Um for for this book, I I had the benefit of timing.
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I started working on it in 2013, which was leading up to the centennial of the start of the centennial anniversary of the war.
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So there was a ton of material being published.
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And I worked at a book company, so I was seeing a ton of that material that was being published, and there were magazines and and books, and anytime someone saw something they thought I would like, they brought it to me.
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One day I was um, I was actually working with a book called Trench Talk, The Language of the War.
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And I had it in my hands, and I think I bought it that day because it was such an invaluable resource.
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So I really had the benefit of a lot of books, books on art behind the war, books on poetry of the war.
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Um, and then my sister lives in Kansas City, and so I had the opportunity of visiting the National World War I Museum in Kansas City, which is an incredible museum.
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Um, and it's it's obviously very American focused, but like the same time period, you know, and that there were there were differences in uniform and differences in in rifles and things, but like overall it was the same war, even though um, you know, um the US got involved a little bit later and and not quite in the same way that that Europe did.
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But um I I I also had the opportunity with work to travel to London, and I the first thing I literally got off the plane and went to my hotel and then went back out and went to the Imperial War Museum, which I think I took a bus, but then I got confused and walked back to the hotel.
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Um, but it was it was close enough to where we were staying in that museum.
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That is not just World War One, but the World War I section is immense, and that was incredible too, because by that point I had done a lot of research and I was seeing things that I had read about.
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One one thing, and I don't think I ever referenced this in the book, but they would build like trees to hide inside snipers, like fake trees to hide inside for snipering.
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And um there was one that survived, or maybe they rebuilt, I'm not actually sure.
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No, I don't remember, but but there was an example of it in that museum, and it was so cool to see.
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And up close, it doesn't look that much like a tree, but at a distance, you know, when everything's been kind of bombed out and there's just little remnants of things left.
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It was very cool.
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So I I really like to mix um books with actually visiting and seeing the ephemera and and being able to get up close to it.
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And I also had an extraordinarily good library.
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Um they another library loaned for me a copy, it was a three-volume set of the regimental papers of the Surrey regiment, and I think Florida State had it for some reason and let they lent it out.
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I got to bring it home with me and read through, and some of it, you know, is tedious troop movements, and some of it would be fascinating things that happened where they went into a village and rounded up spies and and wrote about it in the dispatches.
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Um, but I also during that learned a really important lesson around going too deep into the research.
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Like at the end of the day, it's still fiction.
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And I I got almost obsessed with oh no, my character was going to be here at this time, and and and actually they were here in in this battle, and I had to really go, okay, like artistic license is a thing that's allowed.
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Um, so that was a valuable lesson too.
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But it was it was just so fascinating and really was able to steep the whole thing in in the history.
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London is one of my favorite cities, and their museums are absolutely insane.
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I try to go to like a new one each time I go, so I'll have to check out the Imperial Museum next, especially after reading your book.
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Now, you did mention that you almost fell into this wormhole with research, which I feel is completely understandable.
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But was there anything that was particularly challenging to research, or maybe something you changed in your book after reading research that contradict what you originally had in mind?
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Oh gosh, I feel like that happened loads of times.
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Um one thing that I did find kind of difficult was so first of all, I think being from the United States, what we consider close distance or something being something something being near something else, in England, everything's so much smaller and closer that they really don't.
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And so I had I had described something as being near to a place, and an English person said to me, like, they wouldn't have evacuated people there.
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That's too close to a big city.
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And I I stepped back and looked at it and I was like, Well, I didn't I didn't mean like in the suburbs, you know, I just meant sort of near there.
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Um, and I realized that um just sort of our concepts of distance was very different.
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And I I I actually at after that kind of found it difficult um to find exactly specific details on where people would have evacuated versus where they wouldn't have um large regions, yes, but kind of smaller areas, no.
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And that was um that was something.
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So I I based on that feedback, I made it a little more vague, not because I think what I had originally said was factually incorrect, so much as um the way it was described in relation to other places could be interpreted different depending on where you're from.
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That's fair.
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I feel like on TikTok a lot, there's a lot of Europeans and Americans who always go back and forth about the concepts of distance and what's near, what's drivable, what's not.
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Absolutely.
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It's interesting to see that even with historical research, it falls back into that.
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Because to me, the UK is like so small.
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It's like you could drive the entire island in like if you wanted to, but yeah, that's unrealistic.
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But I grew up going to Georgia and Florida, and that's a seven-hour drive, and that feels like near to me.
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Right, you've crossed the whole country at that point, exactly, exactly.
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So now that we've established this context and background, I really do want to talk about your characters.
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We have Ashley and Rook, who I both loved so dearly.
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Starting with Ashley, we're introduced to her when she decides to take her twin brother's place in the World War I conscription because he runs away and she wants to protect him.
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And to me, it gave this vibe that even though they're twins in the same age, the idea of like the eldest daughter often having this role to protect a family and step up.
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Was that your inspiration when writing your character?
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How did you define her?
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Yeah, I think that um I always thought of Ashley as someone who was always the one everyone relied on.
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She was the one who got the job done.
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And um she's this interesting uh kind of combination of she's fearful, she considers herself very fearful, but it's the way she reacts to the fear, and the fear acts on her, and so like they're both afraid, but her brother's fear leads him to run away to try to protect himself, and her fear leads her to run towards to try to protect him.
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And I I don't think I thought specifically like, oh, she's the older daughter, but I I thought of it more like she's the only daughter, and she's the one kind of um kind of help helping keep everything together, and and she she's also a little bit naive.
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I I saw her as the character who does get kind of caught up in the patriotism of it.
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She wants to have an adventure, she's she's constantly reading, she's always reading Dickens and Shakespeare, and she wants to go off and have her adventure.
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And um, her brother is the more reserved, like, I don't want this, like, leave me out of it.
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And so they're kind of two sides of a coin.
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Yeah.
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It's she's definitely painted as more selfless while her brother is like selfish, even though the fear can be valid.
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It was really interesting to me that we see Charles, her brother, is mentioned a lot through memories or Ashley just thinking about him, but we never actually have a direct encounter with him as the reader.
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And why did you decide not to have a personal scene with him for us to experience?
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Um, I think it I felt like he he so much of the story is through her eyes and interpretation of things.
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And I think that it was mostly because Charles absented himself, he took himself away and he never really found his way back into the family.
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And so I I I played around with the idea that maybe he would be there in the in the in the 1939 chapters, but it really wasn't his home anymore.
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He left, he took himself away from it, and so it it didn't really make sense, I think, for him to be there um from a just from a structural point of view, in terms of um he he was the impetus for the story, so it starts after he's gone, and it really showed how him leaving impacted the family dynamic.
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He had always been his mother's favorite, but in that moment making that decision, he kind of lost that favored status.
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So even when he tried to come back, it it didn't fit.
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And I like I thought about oh, you know, should he be there at the end?
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But it I just thought he he wouldn't be.
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He he made his new life and she kind of found her new life, and and that was sort of the way it would be.
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Yeah, it definitely defined that it was Ashley's story that we never get to see him or make our own judgments of him.
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You mentioned how all of this is through Ashley's eyes, which really come into a lot of my following questions.
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But before I do that, I have a little bit of a silly one.
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So, of course, her surname is Ashley, and everyone called each other by their last names and this.
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And I was wondering, did you intentionally choose Ashley as the last name because it's a bit more feminine sounding, so it was easier to distinguish her in these male-dominated environments?
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Yeah, I 100% did.
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I wanted a kind of a name that and Ashley in the time period could also be a male first name.
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Um, and I think m when I had first started thinking about it, that was what I was thinking about, and then realized, you know, I in this years and years ago and was like, no, no, it would have been her surname, they would have gone by surnames, but I I kept it because I did.
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I wanted kind of a feminine sounding name um for this character who's pretending to be a man.
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Yeah.
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It was interesting to me that even after the war, they still all called each other by their last name, which I guess like that's the habit in it and stuff.
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I was like, it's so funny, like you're on the streets of London and he's your husband, and you're called or about to be and you're calling him Rook.
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I like to call him Alex, but it was but it kept me in the story as well.
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So speaking of Ashley's point of view, it was really interesting to see those chapters when she's meeting Rook, she's in the trenches in World War I, and from the beginning, we have this romantic and vulnerable vibe.
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So I and even when Rook thinks that she's a boy, he takes to her.
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So, what was it like establishing this relationship with the tenderness and the banter, even though there's this huge secret between them?
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Yeah, it was tricky.
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Um, I really wanted from the beginning um for the romance to be soft.
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I I I felt that there's so much drama and trauma from the setting of the war that the I wanted the romance to be I I don't want to say easy, but I I wanted it to be soft and like they're each other's soft place to land.
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And when I came back to the story and kind of figured out how I wanted to write it, the the idea of soulmates was the key that unlocked it.
00:21:56.799 --> 00:21:59.839
And it was this idea that two people's two soulmates.
00:22:00.240 --> 00:22:05.279
Are drawn to each other, whether they understand why, whether they understand who each other is.
00:22:05.519 --> 00:22:08.960
And so I I wanted to kind of jump to that immediately.
00:22:09.119 --> 00:22:18.480
She obviously knows he's a guy and she is immediately drawn to him and is like, well, this is a problem, because I don't want to immediately give myself away.
00:22:18.640 --> 00:22:47.359
Um, but he also feels that connection with her, and I tried to um he obviously tries to bury it and hide it from the beginning, but you know, the soul wants what the soul wants, and they strike up a friendship, and um, so it was it was tricky, I because I wanted him to the thing about their arcs is that at the beginning of the story, Rook is very um closed off.
00:22:47.519 --> 00:22:59.279
He's already been in the war for a couple years, he's lost friends, he's lost people who were close to him, and he doesn't want he he wants to be alone or he doesn't want to let anyone else in.
00:22:59.359 --> 00:23:04.160
And so he he tries to do that with Ash, but he just can't.
00:23:04.720 --> 00:23:14.720
Um, and so that was fun to play with, with him kind of trying to be closed off at the beginning and then sort of gradually opening up um to her as a character.
00:23:15.039 --> 00:23:16.079
Yeah, yeah.
00:23:16.319 --> 00:23:23.759
And I one of the most favorite parts for it to me was kind of seeing her develop this crush, but not feel like this unrequited crush.
00:23:23.839 --> 00:23:27.279
Like it felt like slowly but surely he was reciprocating those feelings.
00:23:27.359 --> 00:23:31.839
Even the first day with the gun practice, he was very patient and calm with her.
00:23:32.000 --> 00:23:41.680
And at first, we of course learned about his sexuality later on, but I was wondering, oh, because we're seeing everything through Ash's point of view, was there any derivative or bias?
00:23:41.759 --> 00:23:45.519
Are we seeing any like emotions or like rose-colored classes heightened?
00:23:45.680 --> 00:23:48.720
Did you worry about that all when you were writing those first scenes?
00:23:48.880 --> 00:23:53.119
Because at first in my head, I never thought, like, oh, like he could be gay.
00:23:54.079 --> 00:23:54.720
Yeah.
00:23:55.039 --> 00:24:14.880
Um I'm trying to think how I I tried to approach it the way Ash would have um reacted in the day, which is that it wouldn't have crossed her mind.
00:24:15.680 --> 00:24:26.880
So she interprets any fondness as as friendship um early on.
00:24:27.119 --> 00:24:32.240
And then kind of as it deepens, she's like, does he know?
00:24:32.400 --> 00:24:33.599
Does he not know?
00:24:34.160 --> 00:24:47.279
And and she doesn't really know where they stand, and I tried very hard to um keep it within her perspective and understanding of the world.
00:24:47.680 --> 00:24:54.079
Um, and that's actually the reason that I decided to do single point of view instead of dual point of view.
00:24:54.240 --> 00:24:56.559
Most of my romance is dual point of view.
00:24:56.720 --> 00:25:02.799
I did think that writing dual point of view and dual timeline could get to be a lot for the reader.
00:25:03.920 --> 00:25:07.119
I was afraid that that could get a little just too much.
00:25:07.279 --> 00:25:19.920
Um, but I also felt like I really you're already reading a book with a modern sensibility where you have more knowledge and understanding than the character does.
00:25:20.160 --> 00:25:31.279
Um, but so I I didn't want to overlay that with um providing a point of view where he's gonna straight up tell you, you know, what he's thinking.
00:25:31.359 --> 00:25:43.279
I really wanted the reader to be rooted in um Ashley's perspective so that they could um understand what she's thinking and how she's understanding the world.
00:25:43.680 --> 00:25:44.480
That's fair.
00:25:44.720 --> 00:25:48.400
And so with Rook, we later learned that he was bisexual.
00:25:48.480 --> 00:25:55.200
So he loved Ash when she was, when he thought he was a man, and then it translated to when she was a woman.
00:25:55.359 --> 00:25:59.359
And bisexuality was a very taboo, illegal topic at this time.
00:25:59.519 --> 00:26:04.720
What was it like navigating and writing that type of character during World War I and World War II?
00:26:05.039 --> 00:26:31.759
Yeah, I mean, so obviously homosexuality and bisexuality existed, and um I think was even kind of overlooked and tolerated to an extent, but then it it was like the wrong person, it was illegal, and the wrong person finding out was would really um make matters about that.
00:26:32.319 --> 00:26:33.519
Yeah, yeah.
00:26:33.680 --> 00:27:02.799
And so um I I I didn't really um I didn't really show uh a lot of any of that kind of really happening in the war as much as like so there's a scene where a bunch of the other runners and and their friends they go off with some fancy ladies when they're when they're on leave in in France.
00:27:03.279 --> 00:27:05.759
And um Rook doesn't go.
00:27:06.160 --> 00:27:18.640
And Ash is just like, oh my god, do I need to like go have tea with this lady so that they don't figure out like it never occurs to her, oh no, they'll think that I don't like women.
00:27:19.359 --> 00:27:23.039
She she thinks, oh no, they'll figure out that I'm a girl.
00:27:23.200 --> 00:27:35.200
Um, but then when Rook doesn't go, and she sort of wonders why, and he sort of looks at her, she's there's a line, um, he looks at her like he knows more than she does, or something like that.
00:27:35.519 --> 00:27:55.920
And so that was kind of my nod to the to the reader, like, yes, he's been with men, he assumes in this moment that perhaps um that Ash might be the same, and and and that's kind of a turning point moment for him in in his brain of how things are.
00:27:56.400 --> 00:28:28.400
Um, but I did feel like I had to make it clear when Ash was reflecting on everything after she's learned that he's alive and she's trying to figure out like, are we friends, are we more, that it's something that she's afraid to talk about because it could get him into trouble and she's confused and and she and I really wanted to make it clear that like that that that was a dangerous thing at that time and she's very sensitive to that fact.
00:28:28.880 --> 00:28:43.440
Yeah, yeah, you definitely could tell her sensitivity and see her as three years grow wiser and understand the way things work, especially with the time jump where it happened is in 1939, and they haven't seen each other in 20 years.
00:28:43.519 --> 00:28:53.119
And to me, when I saw it, I thought when they saw each other it was going to be this very like grand like reunion, but it was very soft where they like embrace and then he kind of walks her home.
00:28:53.200 --> 00:28:58.480
And I was like, oh my gosh, like that's it, we're already back in the war, and then it builds up as we continue on.
00:28:58.640 --> 00:29:05.839
But why did you decide to have this reunion between them that was shorter rather than a longer drawn out one?
00:29:06.160 --> 00:29:18.000
I felt like there was just like so much between them, and so much um, like the initial reunion was very much a visceral, oh my god, you're alive.
00:29:18.160 --> 00:29:20.160
I'm so happy you're alive.
00:29:20.480 --> 00:29:23.680
But then also it was a shock.
00:29:24.160 --> 00:29:34.160
And I felt like once they sat with their feelings, there there it would drag up, it would drag up the trauma of the war, but it would also drag up a lot of like, wait a minute.
00:29:34.240 --> 00:29:52.880
And so Ash needed time to sit with her feelings and realize that I mean, this was someone who she cared about deeply, and and and she had lied to him, and she had lied out of necessity, but she had lied to him, and so she has a lot of feelings around how he's feeling about that.
00:29:53.119 --> 00:30:03.599
Um, and it also gave space for Rook to process those feelings, um, because he definitely had a lot of them too.
00:30:03.680 --> 00:30:16.319
I mean, he kind of went through they they had grieved each other for for decades, and um, so certainly a sense of betrayal of like we were so close and you never felt like you could tell me.
00:30:16.480 --> 00:30:28.480
Um, and he had to work through those feelings, and so I felt like um to to to be true to their characters, I had to give them that moment and then give them space to kind of sit with that moment.
00:30:28.720 --> 00:30:39.599
Right, because we are very familiar with Ash's feelings, and then we kind of see Rook's real feelings through Ash's interpretation and speculation and also her own guilt.
00:30:39.759 --> 00:30:48.880
But if you were to ever do a chapter that was in Rook's point of view or like a bonus chapter of maybe that reunion, how do you think what do you think the main emotions would be?
00:30:49.119 --> 00:30:50.160
Do you think it would be relief?
00:30:50.240 --> 00:30:51.359
Do you think it would be betrayal?
00:30:51.440 --> 00:30:58.240
What do you think he would be feeling that moment he sees Ash at her lecture and also understands that she's a woman and that she lied to him?
00:30:58.559 --> 00:31:01.119
I think it would be all of that.
00:31:01.359 --> 00:31:33.519
I think but I think he moved through the stages pretty quickly because um, you know, this is a person who's lived a lot of life and he's gone through the war and he's gone through the aftermath of the war, and and so I think it it at first it would be shock and confusion and then and then relief that he she's alive and and he's found her because he he did look for her after the war and um never was able to find her.
00:31:34.160 --> 00:31:47.119
And I think that he s he would be like the angry because if he had known he would have had the right questions to potentially find her.
00:31:47.359 --> 00:32:04.640
Um, but I think he worked through it pretty quickly because I think Rook, as someone who has has lost so much in his life, he was orphaned from a young age and lost people in the war, and and then Ash came in and kind of opened his heart again.
00:32:04.720 --> 00:32:09.279
And I I think he would have quickly understood why she did what she did.
00:32:09.359 --> 00:32:13.839
They were young and and it was what it was, and they ran out of time as well.
00:32:14.000 --> 00:32:16.880
And I think he he would have moved through it.
00:32:17.119 --> 00:32:29.039
Um, I think what you see in the scene where they come back together and he's asking her a lot of questions about, you know, was this true, was that true about you?
00:32:29.119 --> 00:32:32.799
And he realizes like her gender is the only thing she lied about.
00:32:33.119 --> 00:32:40.960
I think that since it didn't really matter to him in the end, it it it he he's over it pretty quickly.
00:32:41.279 --> 00:32:55.519
Yeah, that makes sense because he definitely came to acceptance with things more than she did, and really he really helped with her growth and kind of moving along, especially with the preparation for the second war, and then the epilogue jumps to afterwards, which was nice.
00:32:55.599 --> 00:32:58.720
I don't know if I could take seeing them go through another war.
00:32:59.119 --> 00:33:13.519
But we've talked about the two main characters, but one thing that almost felt like another character in this was war poetry, comes consistently comes up throughout the book, and then in the beginning of the 1939 chapters, there's a poem before each one.
00:33:13.680 --> 00:33:16.319
Why did you decide to do war poetry?
00:33:16.960 --> 00:33:28.160
It it I would say that when I was researching, I kind of fell down a rabbit hole of war poetry, and and particularly the poet Charles Hamilton Sorley.
00:33:28.559 --> 00:33:30.240
Um, and I don't remember why.
00:33:30.319 --> 00:33:31.599
I don't, it's too long ago.
00:33:31.680 --> 00:33:34.640
I don't remember how I found him or how that started.
00:33:34.880 --> 00:33:40.319
It may have been because he had a poem that he wrote probably before the war um about runners.
00:33:40.559 --> 00:33:43.200
I think he was a runner when he was in school.
00:33:43.359 --> 00:34:00.079
Um, but I it it it became it really so I read his biography, I watched a play that was written about him that was streamed during COVID, and I read all of his poetry, but also lots of other poetry as well.
00:34:01.119 --> 00:34:12.320
And I think it's a really interesting way to learn and research the war and the sort of psychology of the war.
00:34:12.480 --> 00:34:14.320
Um, because the poetry ran the gamut.
00:34:14.480 --> 00:34:18.559
There was poetry that was like, it's your duty to go die for your country.
00:34:18.639 --> 00:34:19.840
Come on, boys, let's go.
00:34:20.000 --> 00:34:27.760
And there was poetry that was obviously written as a response to that poetry that was like, this is brutal and it's horrible and we hate it here.
00:34:28.079 --> 00:34:36.159
Um, and I think it it's a really because they could write letters home, but the letters were heavily redacted.
00:34:36.400 --> 00:34:41.119
Um and I it it provided an outlet.
00:34:41.199 --> 00:34:53.039
It was such a fascinating time with so many young, educated young men with a lot of time on their hands in between skirmishes putting their feelings down on paper.
00:34:53.199 --> 00:35:02.000
And I think it it really it was a it was a great research tool, but it it felt like it really influenced the story.
00:35:02.159 --> 00:35:15.679
And actually, in one of the earliest drafts, I had Sorley as a character who Ash meets, and then I think in that version she found his final poem after he he died very early in the war.
00:35:15.840 --> 00:35:18.800
Um, and ultimately I changed that a lot.
00:35:18.960 --> 00:36:11.599
She doesn't even go to war until after he would have um passed on, but um but it it it it influenced the early draft so heavily that I really wanted to bring it out in this one, and so um so Ash has studied it, and I thought that would have really helped her overcome um some of her grief and trauma after the war, just kind of burying herself in that poetry because she was someone who loved Dickens and Shakespeare and and words and poetry, and she writes her own poem during the war, and so it it just all kind of fell together really beautifully, and I wasn't initially planning to do the little epigraphs, but I I loved the poetry so much, and I I think there are certain poems everyone knows and certain poets everyone knows.
00:36:11.760 --> 00:37:02.559
Um, but like Charles Sorley, he wasn't terribly prolific because he died so young, and so many were like that, and I kind of wanted to it I wrestled with whether it would be too indulgent to do it, but I really wanted to um to expose some of that poetry to the readers because I talk about it so much, I felt like people might wonder about it, and so I wanted to um honor the poets in a way, and and it fit really well because Ash is is out here lecturing on the poetry, and so I wanted to sort of show here some of the poems that she might be reflecting on as she's reflecting on this part of the past or the present of her own story.
00:37:02.880 --> 00:37:04.719
Yeah, that's really interesting.
00:37:04.960 --> 00:37:09.039
I didn't know that the letters home were redacted, but I guess that would make sense.
00:37:09.199 --> 00:37:15.599
I can imagine that would be hard, and it was just like emotional at times be reading the book and seeing what they go through or seeing war movies.
00:37:15.760 --> 00:37:25.039
So it makes sense poetry would be an outlet, and I definitely think it's fascinating because we don't really see a lot of times men, especially young men, getting in touch with their emotions.
00:37:25.199 --> 00:37:33.679
Yes, yes, and war poetry is one of the few times that we do, and there's so much, to your point, a span of it of people who love the ward, hated the ward.
00:37:33.840 --> 00:37:41.039
Almost reminds me of like a discussion forum almost that they make you do in college, but just separate separate um places.
00:37:41.360 --> 00:37:42.960
But we have a few minutes left.
00:37:43.119 --> 00:37:48.880
I know we've just had some pretty somber moments in our conversation, but I always like to end with some fun questions.
00:37:48.960 --> 00:37:52.880
And one of the bright spots of the book is the dog, Maxine.
00:37:53.039 --> 00:37:56.239
And she lives to be over 20 years old.
00:37:56.400 --> 00:37:57.760
And I am not complaining.
00:37:57.920 --> 00:37:59.360
I am a huge dog lover.
00:37:59.519 --> 00:38:07.199
I hate when the dog dies, but I saw even in your author's note that you defended her age with other historical dogs who lived to be that long.
00:38:07.360 --> 00:38:12.880
Why was it important to you that we saw this dog from beginning to end with the story?
00:38:13.199 --> 00:38:17.440
I for one thing, the dog had to survive.
00:38:17.760 --> 00:38:33.599
And um, it's funny because one of the questions that people who uh have had read the earliest versions of this from 13 years ago had asked me was, Does the dog die?
00:38:34.000 --> 00:38:39.760
And I'm like, no, the dog doesn't die, to the point that I even put a note in the front of the book.
00:38:40.480 --> 00:38:41.199
I saw that.
00:38:41.440 --> 00:38:58.719
And and depending on where your if someone's reading an e-book, depending on where your e-reader opens, you may not see it, but but it it it's straight very, very clear because it is a book about war and and characters do die, but um, but I wanted to make it very clear the dog doesn't die.
00:38:58.960 --> 00:39:09.840
And when I was writing the epilogue, I got to the end and Stuart was gonna be there, and I was like, well, he's gonna have to have a dog with him.
00:39:10.320 --> 00:39:14.719
And I thought, well, it can't not be Max.
00:39:15.519 --> 00:39:27.599
Because if it is some other dog, even though it's been years, then by implication, the dog has died, even though maybe it's old age.
00:39:28.000 --> 00:39:30.159
And I was like, I'm not I can't do it.
00:39:30.239 --> 00:39:32.639
We gotta have Max in in that in that scene.
00:39:32.880 --> 00:39:35.360
I guess it wasn't the epilogue, it was It was towards the end.
00:39:35.840 --> 00:39:37.039
It was towards the end, yeah, yeah.
00:39:37.119 --> 00:39:38.800
The epilogue's even later.
00:39:39.119 --> 00:39:45.840
Um, but yeah, and so it's like there there I can't um I can't do that.
00:39:46.079 --> 00:39:55.760
And so I I did some research about like, well, how long, you know, what's not what's the average, like right, this is a romance novel.
00:39:55.920 --> 00:40:08.000
We deal in the the outside, you know, the the so I found cases that supported the concept concept that this dog could still be alive.
00:40:08.320 --> 00:40:10.000
And I said, that's good enough for me.
00:40:10.159 --> 00:40:13.760
It's possible, so it's it's I'm gonna do it.
00:40:13.920 --> 00:40:20.239
And and I had complaints that were like, no, absolutely not, that dog would not still be alive.
00:40:20.480 --> 00:40:25.519
And so I thought about taking it out, and I thought, no, I really don't care.
00:40:25.679 --> 00:40:30.000
Like I um it and you know, I mean, I I had a dog.
00:40:30.159 --> 00:40:37.360
Um I I don't remember trying to think when we got the dog versus when I put the original draft of this book.
00:40:37.519 --> 00:40:43.199
Probably got the dog after I had put the first version of the book away.
00:40:43.519 --> 00:40:48.000
And um, and then we lost her a few years ago, and now we have another dog.
00:40:48.400 --> 00:40:53.519
And um, I was like, I there's just no world in which I can even imply that this dog isn't still here.
00:40:53.599 --> 00:40:59.280
And I and I thought it was also just kind of a sweet, funny moment of like, oh my god, oh my god, the dog's still here.
00:40:59.440 --> 00:41:01.360
He's still here, she's amazing, you know.
00:41:01.440 --> 00:41:06.880
And so I just kept it and said, like, sorry if you hated that, but you're at the end of the book, so exactly.
00:41:07.119 --> 00:41:09.039
You made a promise that the dog was not gonna die.
00:41:09.280 --> 00:41:09.360
Right.
00:41:10.239 --> 00:41:11.519
I had to keep the promise.
00:41:11.679 --> 00:41:15.360
I didn't feel like I could keep that line in the beginning.
00:41:15.599 --> 00:41:22.719
If and some people forgot about reading that in the beginning, and then were like as they were reading this version, like, oh my god, oh my god.
00:41:22.880 --> 00:41:24.960
And and I was like, Did you not see the note?
00:41:25.039 --> 00:41:27.679
Like, I promised you the dog wouldn't die.
00:41:27.920 --> 00:41:28.320
You know what?
00:41:28.480 --> 00:41:32.639
I saw the note, and I just assumed like we weren't gonna see the dog get brutally killed.
00:41:32.880 --> 00:41:36.960
But when I so when I saw the dog at like the very end, I was like, oh my gosh, you really did keep her comment.
00:41:37.199 --> 00:41:39.119
The dog does not does not die.
00:41:39.360 --> 00:41:47.519
Okay, so my second to last question, I always like to ask authors what their least favorite trope is, whether it be romance or books as a whole.
00:41:47.760 --> 00:41:52.320
I interview a lot of romance authors, so a lot of times I get the unplanned pregnancy trope.
00:41:52.480 --> 00:41:56.159
A lot of people question friends to lovers because it doesn't make sense to them.
00:41:56.320 --> 00:41:59.360
I got character, like main characters dying at the end.
00:41:59.519 --> 00:42:01.519
Someone's told me I hate when they get cancer.
00:42:01.599 --> 00:42:03.679
It can literally be anything you want.
00:42:03.840 --> 00:42:10.000
So, what would you say is your least favorite trope to see in a book or a trope you cannot see yourself writing?
00:42:10.800 --> 00:42:11.599
Gosh.
00:42:12.639 --> 00:42:16.400
Um I don't read a lot of billionaire romance.
00:42:16.639 --> 00:42:23.599
Well, that's not a fair statement because I read a ton of historical romance, and I guess if there's a rich duke, that's basically billionaire romance.
00:42:23.760 --> 00:42:24.960
The equivalent of a billionaire.
00:42:25.199 --> 00:42:26.400
But you don't read modern billionaire.
00:42:26.880 --> 00:42:28.400
I don't read modern billionaire romance.
00:42:28.559 --> 00:42:36.559
That's so I that's and I you know what I don't like, I don't like the alpha hole trope.
00:42:36.719 --> 00:42:40.800
I like I write cinnamon rolls, I like cinnamon rolls.
00:42:41.039 --> 00:42:45.360
So I I think it would be the the alpha hole would would be the one I would say.
00:42:45.599 --> 00:42:46.960
That's fair, that's fair.
00:42:47.119 --> 00:42:52.400
I do read billionaire romance, but I also acknowledge how crazy it can be.
00:42:52.480 --> 00:42:53.840
So I can appreciate your answer.
00:42:55.039 --> 00:43:00.480
I mean it's not for everyone, and sometimes even like this isn't even a little much for for me.
00:43:00.800 --> 00:43:04.480
And I I wouldn't even say that I avoid it.
00:43:04.719 --> 00:43:14.239
I would say I haven't actively sought it out in contemporary, but historical is my cozy happy place.
00:43:14.320 --> 00:43:19.519
So I read probably three to four times more historical than contemporary.
00:43:19.920 --> 00:43:37.119
And so I'm definitely reading it in the historical concept, but I would say um when I read contemporary, it's usually more just that something about it, a friend has written it, or something about it has something about the story has caught my eye.
00:43:37.199 --> 00:43:38.960
So I'm not actively avoiding it.
00:43:39.039 --> 00:43:44.239
If somebody has the best ever villainair romance that I need to read, I will happily check it out.
00:43:44.559 --> 00:43:52.000
Well, if you're ever, if you're ever in craving it randomly, I can send you some of my Rex and billionaire romances I feel are less cringy.
00:43:52.159 --> 00:44:01.440
But of course, my final question for you, closing out The Unknown Birds, is what do you want people to take away after they've read the book?
00:44:02.000 --> 00:44:17.039
I think so when I wrote this book, um the recent version of it, um, I was feeling a certain sort of way about everything that's going on in the world.
00:44:17.360 --> 00:44:30.880
And so when Ash is in 1939 feeling like, oh my god, it's happening again, I felt like that was a lot of what we're all feeling about everything that's going on in the world.
00:44:31.199 --> 00:44:36.320
And I think readers will respond different ways to that.
00:44:36.480 --> 00:44:45.119
Um, but I did have someone who had read she was a beta reader for the early drafts of the other book, of the other version.
00:44:45.840 --> 00:44:52.079
And I said, Will you read this and tell me if you still like it as much as you liked that version?
00:44:52.800 --> 00:45:14.400
And she said it really resonated with how she's feeling with the world today, and so I think that's my hope that it gives um people who are feeling like everything might be a little bit terrible, that there's light at the end of the tunnel.
00:45:14.559 --> 00:45:17.840
Um, I that's what I hope people take away from it.
00:45:18.079 --> 00:45:28.559
Yeah, I feel like we definitely need that hope and seeing kind of like the optimism towards the end was just like I feel like the cherry on top for this book because I truly enjoyed it.
00:45:28.719 --> 00:45:31.920
I don't know if I'll start reading more contemporary romance like you do by.
00:45:32.079 --> 00:45:39.119
It's definitely opened me to seeing different historical romances and learning more about that time period.
00:45:39.199 --> 00:45:39.920
So I thank you for that.
00:45:40.000 --> 00:45:43.360
You definitely have changed my reading trajectory for the rest of the I love it.
00:45:43.440 --> 00:45:47.679
Well, if you ever need historical recommendations, I've got the longest list.
00:45:47.760 --> 00:45:50.320
So I might hit you up on that.
00:45:50.559 --> 00:45:53.440
Well, thank you so much for joining me today.
00:45:53.599 --> 00:45:54.800
This has been such a treat.
00:45:55.039 --> 00:45:55.599
Amazing.
00:45:55.840 --> 00:45:57.119
It's been great talking to you.
00:45:57.280 --> 00:45:57.840
Thank you so much.
00:45:58.320 --> 00:45:59.599
Thank you so much for listening.
00:45:59.679 --> 00:46:00.960
I hope you enjoyed that.
00:46:01.119 --> 00:46:06.559
Be sure to read The Unknown Birds if you haven't already, and follow Rose on Instagram.
00:46:06.800 --> 00:46:09.599
Now, next week I'm doing something different again.
00:46:09.840 --> 00:46:12.239
I am interviewing a book influencer.
00:46:12.400 --> 00:46:22.159
Her name is Ika, and we met at a book launch event over the summer, and she is so sweet, and she has over 70,000 followers on TikTok.
00:46:22.400 --> 00:46:33.360
So we're gonna talk about her journey into book content creation, what the biggest challenges and joys are, basically the behind the scenes of becoming a successful book talk influencer.
00:46:33.599 --> 00:46:38.639
And also bonding over our taste in fantasy and contemporary romance as well.
00:46:38.880 --> 00:46:42.320
I'm super excited to talk with her, and I hope you come back for it.
00:46:42.480 --> 00:46:44.639
Have a great week, my book butterflies.
00:46:44.719 --> 00:46:46.079
I'll see you next time.
00:00:01.840 --> 00:00:06.639
Hello my book butterflies and welcome to this next episode of the main chapter podcast.
00:00:06.879 --> 00:00:15.519
My name's Brigada and please be sure to like and subscribe so we can continue growing and spreading our love of books with the entire world.
00:00:15.919 --> 00:00:24.399
I just want to take a moment and say thank you to everyone because this is my first video since hitting a thousand subscribers, which is so exciting.
00:00:24.480 --> 00:00:26.000
It means so much to me.
00:00:26.239 --> 00:00:31.679
So thank you so much to all my book butterflies for like and subscribe and done any form of engagement.
00:00:31.760 --> 00:00:32.640
I am so grateful.
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I keep hope to continue growing my little butterfly family on here.
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We are celebrating this 1K milestone in style.
00:00:41.679 --> 00:00:48.000
I just got done interviewing Rose Bridgeville telling all about her new historical romance and the unknown birds.
00:00:51.119 --> 00:00:53.679
And I enjoyed this book so much.
00:00:59.520 --> 00:01:04.480
She takes her twin brothers place at the World War I description in the UK.
00:01:04.719 --> 00:01:11.200
So she goes into the British military as a man, and no one knows her secret.
00:01:11.599 --> 00:01:15.920
And she develops this really close relationship with a sniper named Alice Brother.
00:01:16.239 --> 00:01:32.159
So you see how they get to know each other, they interact, how they become each other's soft place to land, and then they are ripped apart from each other at the end of the war, and don't reunite until 20 years later, where he then learns that she's actually a woman.
00:01:32.400 --> 00:01:37.760
So it's dual timeline, and we get to see the different stages of the relationship.
00:01:37.840 --> 00:01:42.319
It's such an emotional, beautiful book, and also really interesting as well.
00:01:42.400 --> 00:01:48.640
Because I feel like in the US, we talk about World War II, the Revolutionary War, Civil War.
00:01:48.799 --> 00:01:56.560
And the World War I is just kind of glazed, but we don't really take down to it so learning more about the time period was so fascinating to me.
00:01:56.719 --> 00:02:02.480
And this book took Rose 13 years to write with six years worth of research.
00:02:02.640 --> 00:02:06.319
And she is so passionate, you can tell what's happening to her.
00:02:06.560 --> 00:02:10.240
I really enjoyed our conversation, and I hope you do as well.
00:02:10.560 --> 00:02:17.039
There are some spoilers, nothing too crazy that I think if you listen all the way through, it won't ruin the book for you.
00:02:17.199 --> 00:02:21.039
But if you want to skip around with these timestamps, please advise.
00:02:21.199 --> 00:02:23.039
And let's go ahead and roll the tape.
00:02:23.199 --> 00:02:25.840
Well, Rose, welcome to the main chapter.
00:02:25.919 --> 00:02:26.960
I'm so excited to have you.
00:02:27.039 --> 00:02:32.639
And as someone named Brianna Rose, I'm always happy to have another Rose on the show because it's a family name.
00:02:32.800 --> 00:02:35.919
But we are here to talk about the unknown birds.
00:02:36.000 --> 00:02:42.719
And I was telling you before this interview started, that was my first time reading historical romance in a very long time, if not ever.
00:02:42.879 --> 00:02:47.919
And I really, really enjoyed it and I'm really interested in the process behind it.
00:02:48.080 --> 00:02:53.599
So my first question for you is I saw that you said this book was 13 years in the making.
00:02:53.680 --> 00:02:56.560
So what was that first inspiration, that first spark?
00:02:56.879 --> 00:02:59.360
Yeah, well, first, thank you so much for having me on.
00:02:59.439 --> 00:03:01.360
I'm really excited to be here.
00:03:01.680 --> 00:03:16.240
Um, so I think the very first spark was probably the movie Gallipoli, which is a movie, it's actually one of Mel Gibson's movies, but it was directed by uh Peter Ware.
00:03:16.560 --> 00:03:18.800
Um, and I saw that movie.
00:03:18.960 --> 00:03:24.000
I wrote at least two papers on it in college, but it was about two trench runners during the war.
00:03:24.240 --> 00:03:28.240
And I think that that really stuck with me, their story.
00:03:28.560 --> 00:03:40.000
But so 13 years ago, when I first started writing this, um I was really enamored with the second season of Downton Abbey.
00:03:40.080 --> 00:03:41.599
That's the season when they all go to war.
00:03:41.680 --> 00:04:05.120
And I think that really sparked off the idea of a character um kind of somehow secretly going to war when they're not supposed to get there, and then what their life would be like kind of in the aftermath, and and what all that because I think Downton did a really good job of showing there was patriotic fervor and people who were like, Heck yes, I want to go.
00:04:05.199 --> 00:04:16.560
You know, you had the character William who was just devastated that he kept not getting to go, and you had characters like Thomas who were like, I don't want to do this, and they tried everything to not have to go.
00:04:16.720 --> 00:04:36.079
And it really did run the gamut of people who who wanted to be there and didn't want to be there, and and and threw together um so many, um, I think it broke down a lot of barriers in terms of of of um the the wealthy that were there and the and fighting side by side with people who had formerly been their servants.
00:04:36.160 --> 00:04:39.439
So that really kicked off the initial spark.
00:04:39.920 --> 00:04:40.399
Interesting.
00:04:40.480 --> 00:04:43.839
Down Abbey, my mother and grandmother love that show.
00:04:43.920 --> 00:04:45.279
They've watched it multiple times.
00:04:45.360 --> 00:04:49.920
I've never watched it in full, but I'm surrounded by Doubt and Abbey fangirl.
00:04:50.079 --> 00:04:52.879
So maybe that's why I was drawn to this book.
00:04:53.040 --> 00:04:57.199
And I saw that you initially put this book down and then picked it back up.
00:04:57.360 --> 00:05:01.839
So what made you stop writing it and then what called you to restart that process?
00:05:02.160 --> 00:05:06.720
Oh man, so I worked on it for longer than the war even lasted.
00:05:06.800 --> 00:05:10.639
It was originally not dual timeline, it was just straight through the war.
00:05:11.120 --> 00:05:14.399
And I spent at least six years on it.
00:05:14.720 --> 00:05:19.680
And I got to a point where I'd taken a lot of feedback.
00:05:19.759 --> 00:05:26.240
I had some wonderful critique partners, and then I had expanded and and kept asking different people for advice.
00:05:26.319 --> 00:05:35.360
And I got to a point where I knew it wasn't working, but I didn't know why it wasn't working, and I didn't really know how to fix it.
00:05:35.519 --> 00:05:38.879
And I just felt like it's time to move on and do something else.
00:05:38.959 --> 00:05:40.560
This this isn't gonna happen.
00:05:40.800 --> 00:05:44.319
And I was devastated, like I was heartbroken.
00:05:44.480 --> 00:05:53.439
I had done so much research and spent so much time with this book, and it was the third book I'd ever written, so it's just I just felt so sad.
00:05:53.920 --> 00:05:55.680
But I said, maybe it's not forever.
00:05:55.839 --> 00:06:03.439
I didn't really believe that, but that kind of comforted me as I put it away, and it's really never left me over the years.
00:06:03.519 --> 00:06:12.560
I actually have a huge painting on my wall in here of poppies that I had gotten while I was working on it, and that was always with me.
00:06:13.120 --> 00:06:30.720
And um as I got more comfortable writing romance, because it wasn't originally romance, um, as I got more comfortable writing romance over the last couple of years, I kind of had the thought, well, maybe someday I could bring that book back and do something with it.
00:06:30.959 --> 00:06:35.759
And I don't know what, obviously, as a romance, but I don't really know.
00:06:35.839 --> 00:06:37.759
Maybe something dual timeline.
00:06:37.920 --> 00:06:41.279
And I just kind of had that glimmer of an idea in the back of my head.
00:06:41.439 --> 00:06:49.120
And then last summer I had finished a first draft of the book I released back in May, and I wasn't ready to start revising it yet.
00:06:49.199 --> 00:06:50.959
So I thought, okay, that's a real book now.
00:06:51.040 --> 00:06:52.319
What am I gonna work on next?
00:06:52.560 --> 00:06:53.360
Maybe that.
00:06:53.600 --> 00:06:58.240
And I had just read a book, I don't remember if it was actually dual timeline.
00:06:58.319 --> 00:07:10.800
I it maybe a little bit, but something about that book, um, which was a contemporary book called Um, looking over at my bookshelf, Poetry by Denman, um, uh by Megan Shade.
00:07:11.040 --> 00:07:18.800
And there was just something about that book that I thought, I think I know how I could tell this story in a dual timeline way.
00:07:19.120 --> 00:07:23.279
And and I I got so excited about it all over again.
00:07:23.360 --> 00:07:25.199
It was like falling in love.
00:07:25.439 --> 00:07:29.040
It was so wonderful to be back in the world of this book.
00:07:29.439 --> 00:07:30.079
Oh my gosh.
00:07:30.160 --> 00:07:32.399
Well, first off, six years is crazy.
00:07:32.560 --> 00:07:33.600
I know you said that in the beginning.
00:07:33.680 --> 00:07:39.279
I've been holding on to that the entire time of your answer because I was like, oh my gosh, you can get a college degree and a master's in that time.
00:07:39.360 --> 00:07:40.800
That's like a first grade child.
00:07:40.959 --> 00:07:48.160
So I'm devastated to put something away after six years, especially as someone who feels like they have to complete things and see things through.
00:07:48.240 --> 00:07:54.800
So I feel like it's also a testament to your mental strength to be able to put it away and understand that it's not ready yet.
00:07:54.959 --> 00:08:07.040
But I do love that he made that change for dual timeline and the pacing of it too, especially in the beginning where the 1939 chapters are a little shorter and they're like little treats in between the World War One ones.
00:08:07.199 --> 00:08:10.240
So I thought it was a very well done change.
00:08:10.399 --> 00:08:11.199
And thank you.
00:08:11.519 --> 00:08:12.079
Of course.
00:08:12.160 --> 00:08:21.120
And so what really entertained me about the book was the research behind it because I think you even said in your author's note that we in the US we talk about World War I.
00:08:21.360 --> 00:08:30.639
You see, I read about it in elementary school, again in AP World History in high school, but I feel like it's not as focused on as like the Civil War, Revolutionary War, even World War II.
00:08:30.800 --> 00:08:36.720
So reading about it and then also seeing it through a British lens was really interesting for me.
00:08:36.799 --> 00:08:39.600
And what was that research process like for you?
00:08:39.840 --> 00:08:40.639
Oh my gosh.
00:08:40.799 --> 00:08:42.960
It was it, I mean, it's true.
00:08:43.120 --> 00:08:49.679
My grandfather um fought in World War II, and I think most of us kind of have that connection to World War II.
00:08:49.919 --> 00:08:55.200
Um for for this book, I I had the benefit of timing.
00:08:55.440 --> 00:09:05.200
I started working on it in 2013, which was leading up to the centennial of the start of the centennial anniversary of the war.
00:09:05.360 --> 00:09:08.399
So there was a ton of material being published.
00:09:08.720 --> 00:09:20.639
And I worked at a book company, so I was seeing a ton of that material that was being published, and there were magazines and and books, and anytime someone saw something they thought I would like, they brought it to me.
00:09:21.039 --> 00:09:28.240
One day I was um, I was actually working with a book called Trench Talk, The Language of the War.
00:09:28.480 --> 00:09:35.279
And I had it in my hands, and I think I bought it that day because it was such an invaluable resource.
00:09:35.519 --> 00:09:42.399
So I really had the benefit of a lot of books, books on art behind the war, books on poetry of the war.
00:09:42.720 --> 00:09:54.720
Um, and then my sister lives in Kansas City, and so I had the opportunity of visiting the National World War I Museum in Kansas City, which is an incredible museum.
00:09:54.960 --> 00:10:16.799
Um, and it's it's obviously very American focused, but like the same time period, you know, and that there were there were differences in uniform and differences in in rifles and things, but like overall it was the same war, even though um, you know, um the US got involved a little bit later and and not quite in the same way that that Europe did.
00:10:17.120 --> 00:10:39.120
But um I I I also had the opportunity with work to travel to London, and I the first thing I literally got off the plane and went to my hotel and then went back out and went to the Imperial War Museum, which I think I took a bus, but then I got confused and walked back to the hotel.
00:10:39.440 --> 00:10:44.720
Um, but it was it was close enough to where we were staying in that museum.
00:10:44.879 --> 00:10:56.559
That is not just World War One, but the World War I section is immense, and that was incredible too, because by that point I had done a lot of research and I was seeing things that I had read about.
00:10:56.720 --> 00:11:11.360
One one thing, and I don't think I ever referenced this in the book, but they would build like trees to hide inside snipers, like fake trees to hide inside for snipering.
00:11:11.600 --> 00:11:19.279
And um there was one that survived, or maybe they rebuilt, I'm not actually sure.
00:11:19.440 --> 00:11:24.159
No, I don't remember, but but there was an example of it in that museum, and it was so cool to see.
00:11:24.240 --> 00:11:32.480
And up close, it doesn't look that much like a tree, but at a distance, you know, when everything's been kind of bombed out and there's just little remnants of things left.
00:11:32.879 --> 00:11:33.759
It was very cool.
00:11:33.919 --> 00:11:42.559
So I I really like to mix um books with actually visiting and seeing the ephemera and and being able to get up close to it.
00:11:42.720 --> 00:11:46.159
And I also had an extraordinarily good library.
00:11:46.399 --> 00:12:02.240
Um they another library loaned for me a copy, it was a three-volume set of the regimental papers of the Surrey regiment, and I think Florida State had it for some reason and let they lent it out.
00:12:02.320 --> 00:12:17.360
I got to bring it home with me and read through, and some of it, you know, is tedious troop movements, and some of it would be fascinating things that happened where they went into a village and rounded up spies and and wrote about it in the dispatches.
00:12:17.679 --> 00:12:26.000
Um, but I also during that learned a really important lesson around going too deep into the research.
00:12:26.159 --> 00:12:28.720
Like at the end of the day, it's still fiction.
00:12:28.879 --> 00:12:43.440
And I I got almost obsessed with oh no, my character was going to be here at this time, and and and actually they were here in in this battle, and I had to really go, okay, like artistic license is a thing that's allowed.
00:12:43.600 --> 00:12:46.559
Um, so that was a valuable lesson too.
00:12:46.639 --> 00:12:53.360
But it was it was just so fascinating and really was able to steep the whole thing in in the history.
00:12:53.840 --> 00:12:58.320
London is one of my favorite cities, and their museums are absolutely insane.
00:12:58.399 --> 00:13:05.840
I try to go to like a new one each time I go, so I'll have to check out the Imperial Museum next, especially after reading your book.
00:13:06.000 --> 00:13:11.360
Now, you did mention that you almost fell into this wormhole with research, which I feel is completely understandable.
00:13:11.519 --> 00:13:20.720
But was there anything that was particularly challenging to research, or maybe something you changed in your book after reading research that contradict what you originally had in mind?
00:13:21.039 --> 00:13:24.080
Oh gosh, I feel like that happened loads of times.
00:13:25.360 --> 00:13:48.000
Um one thing that I did find kind of difficult was so first of all, I think being from the United States, what we consider close distance or something being something something being near something else, in England, everything's so much smaller and closer that they really don't.
00:13:48.159 --> 00:14:00.639
And so I had I had described something as being near to a place, and an English person said to me, like, they wouldn't have evacuated people there.
00:14:00.799 --> 00:14:03.200
That's too close to a big city.
00:14:03.519 --> 00:14:13.120
And I I stepped back and looked at it and I was like, Well, I didn't I didn't mean like in the suburbs, you know, I just meant sort of near there.
00:14:13.360 --> 00:14:21.279
Um, and I realized that um just sort of our concepts of distance was very different.
00:14:21.360 --> 00:14:40.240
And I I I actually at after that kind of found it difficult um to find exactly specific details on where people would have evacuated versus where they wouldn't have um large regions, yes, but kind of smaller areas, no.
00:14:40.399 --> 00:14:42.320
And that was um that was something.
00:14:42.480 --> 00:15:01.200
So I I based on that feedback, I made it a little more vague, not because I think what I had originally said was factually incorrect, so much as um the way it was described in relation to other places could be interpreted different depending on where you're from.
00:15:01.519 --> 00:15:02.080
That's fair.
00:15:02.240 --> 00:15:12.240
I feel like on TikTok a lot, there's a lot of Europeans and Americans who always go back and forth about the concepts of distance and what's near, what's drivable, what's not.
00:15:12.799 --> 00:15:13.279
Absolutely.
00:15:13.519 --> 00:15:18.159
It's interesting to see that even with historical research, it falls back into that.
00:15:18.320 --> 00:15:19.840
Because to me, the UK is like so small.
00:15:19.919 --> 00:15:25.840
It's like you could drive the entire island in like if you wanted to, but yeah, that's unrealistic.
00:15:26.000 --> 00:15:31.679
But I grew up going to Georgia and Florida, and that's a seven-hour drive, and that feels like near to me.
00:15:32.000 --> 00:15:36.000
Right, you've crossed the whole country at that point, exactly, exactly.
00:15:36.159 --> 00:15:41.360
So now that we've established this context and background, I really do want to talk about your characters.
00:15:41.440 --> 00:15:45.039
We have Ashley and Rook, who I both loved so dearly.
00:15:45.279 --> 00:15:55.360
Starting with Ashley, we're introduced to her when she decides to take her twin brother's place in the World War I conscription because he runs away and she wants to protect him.
00:15:55.440 --> 00:16:04.639
And to me, it gave this vibe that even though they're twins in the same age, the idea of like the eldest daughter often having this role to protect a family and step up.
00:16:04.879 --> 00:16:07.840
Was that your inspiration when writing your character?
00:16:08.000 --> 00:16:09.679
How did you define her?
00:16:10.000 --> 00:16:21.679
Yeah, I think that um I always thought of Ashley as someone who was always the one everyone relied on.
00:16:21.840 --> 00:16:24.080
She was the one who got the job done.
00:16:24.399 --> 00:16:49.120
And um she's this interesting uh kind of combination of she's fearful, she considers herself very fearful, but it's the way she reacts to the fear, and the fear acts on her, and so like they're both afraid, but her brother's fear leads him to run away to try to protect himself, and her fear leads her to run towards to try to protect him.
00:16:49.360 --> 00:17:07.519
And I I don't think I thought specifically like, oh, she's the older daughter, but I I thought of it more like she's the only daughter, and she's the one kind of um kind of help helping keep everything together, and and she she's also a little bit naive.
00:17:07.599 --> 00:17:14.960
I I saw her as the character who does get kind of caught up in the patriotism of it.
00:17:15.119 --> 00:17:23.359
She wants to have an adventure, she's she's constantly reading, she's always reading Dickens and Shakespeare, and she wants to go off and have her adventure.
00:17:23.680 --> 00:17:30.799
And um, her brother is the more reserved, like, I don't want this, like, leave me out of it.
00:17:30.960 --> 00:17:33.680
And so they're kind of two sides of a coin.
00:17:33.920 --> 00:17:34.319
Yeah.
00:17:34.559 --> 00:17:42.960
It's she's definitely painted as more selfless while her brother is like selfish, even though the fear can be valid.
00:17:43.119 --> 00:17:54.880
It was really interesting to me that we see Charles, her brother, is mentioned a lot through memories or Ashley just thinking about him, but we never actually have a direct encounter with him as the reader.
00:17:55.039 --> 00:18:00.160
And why did you decide not to have a personal scene with him for us to experience?
00:18:00.960 --> 00:18:14.799
Um, I think it I felt like he he so much of the story is through her eyes and interpretation of things.
00:18:15.359 --> 00:18:29.599
And I think that it was mostly because Charles absented himself, he took himself away and he never really found his way back into the family.
00:18:29.839 --> 00:18:41.039
And so I I I played around with the idea that maybe he would be there in the in the in the 1939 chapters, but it really wasn't his home anymore.
00:18:41.200 --> 00:19:04.160
He left, he took himself away from it, and so it it didn't really make sense, I think, for him to be there um from a just from a structural point of view, in terms of um he he was the impetus for the story, so it starts after he's gone, and it really showed how him leaving impacted the family dynamic.
00:19:04.319 --> 00:19:12.240
He had always been his mother's favorite, but in that moment making that decision, he kind of lost that favored status.
00:19:12.480 --> 00:19:16.799
So even when he tried to come back, it it didn't fit.
00:19:17.119 --> 00:19:22.640
And I like I thought about oh, you know, should he be there at the end?
00:19:22.880 --> 00:19:25.359
But it I just thought he he wouldn't be.
00:19:25.519 --> 00:19:31.920
He he made his new life and she kind of found her new life, and and that was sort of the way it would be.
00:19:32.240 --> 00:19:38.880
Yeah, it definitely defined that it was Ashley's story that we never get to see him or make our own judgments of him.
00:19:39.039 --> 00:19:44.240
You mentioned how all of this is through Ashley's eyes, which really come into a lot of my following questions.
00:19:44.400 --> 00:19:47.119
But before I do that, I have a little bit of a silly one.
00:19:47.279 --> 00:19:51.599
So, of course, her surname is Ashley, and everyone called each other by their last names and this.
00:19:51.759 --> 00:20:01.599
And I was wondering, did you intentionally choose Ashley as the last name because it's a bit more feminine sounding, so it was easier to distinguish her in these male-dominated environments?
00:20:01.839 --> 00:20:03.519
Yeah, I 100% did.
00:20:03.680 --> 00:20:10.799
I wanted a kind of a name that and Ashley in the time period could also be a male first name.
00:20:11.119 --> 00:20:25.359
Um, and I think m when I had first started thinking about it, that was what I was thinking about, and then realized, you know, I in this years and years ago and was like, no, no, it would have been her surname, they would have gone by surnames, but I I kept it because I did.
00:20:25.440 --> 00:20:32.400
I wanted kind of a feminine sounding name um for this character who's pretending to be a man.
00:20:32.640 --> 00:20:33.039
Yeah.
00:20:33.200 --> 00:20:40.240
It was interesting to me that even after the war, they still all called each other by their last name, which I guess like that's the habit in it and stuff.
00:20:40.319 --> 00:20:45.039
I was like, it's so funny, like you're on the streets of London and he's your husband, and you're called or about to be and you're calling him Rook.
00:20:45.279 --> 00:20:50.000
I like to call him Alex, but it was but it kept me in the story as well.
00:20:50.240 --> 00:21:03.839
So speaking of Ashley's point of view, it was really interesting to see those chapters when she's meeting Rook, she's in the trenches in World War I, and from the beginning, we have this romantic and vulnerable vibe.
00:21:04.000 --> 00:21:08.400
So I and even when Rook thinks that she's a boy, he takes to her.
00:21:08.559 --> 00:21:17.039
So, what was it like establishing this relationship with the tenderness and the banter, even though there's this huge secret between them?
00:21:17.440 --> 00:21:19.839
Yeah, it was tricky.
00:21:20.000 --> 00:21:28.640
Um, I really wanted from the beginning um for the romance to be soft.
00:21:28.880 --> 00:21:47.920
I I I felt that there's so much drama and trauma from the setting of the war that the I wanted the romance to be I I don't want to say easy, but I I wanted it to be soft and like they're each other's soft place to land.
00:21:48.480 --> 00:21:56.720
And when I came back to the story and kind of figured out how I wanted to write it, the the idea of soulmates was the key that unlocked it.
00:21:56.799 --> 00:21:59.839
And it was this idea that two people's two soulmates.
00:22:00.240 --> 00:22:05.279
Are drawn to each other, whether they understand why, whether they understand who each other is.
00:22:05.519 --> 00:22:08.960
And so I I wanted to kind of jump to that immediately.
00:22:09.119 --> 00:22:18.480
She obviously knows he's a guy and she is immediately drawn to him and is like, well, this is a problem, because I don't want to immediately give myself away.
00:22:18.640 --> 00:22:47.359
Um, but he also feels that connection with her, and I tried to um he obviously tries to bury it and hide it from the beginning, but you know, the soul wants what the soul wants, and they strike up a friendship, and um, so it was it was tricky, I because I wanted him to the thing about their arcs is that at the beginning of the story, Rook is very um closed off.
00:22:47.519 --> 00:22:59.279
He's already been in the war for a couple years, he's lost friends, he's lost people who were close to him, and he doesn't want he he wants to be alone or he doesn't want to let anyone else in.
00:22:59.359 --> 00:23:04.160
And so he he tries to do that with Ash, but he just can't.
00:23:04.720 --> 00:23:14.720
Um, and so that was fun to play with, with him kind of trying to be closed off at the beginning and then sort of gradually opening up um to her as a character.
00:23:15.039 --> 00:23:16.079
Yeah, yeah.
00:23:16.319 --> 00:23:23.759
And I one of the most favorite parts for it to me was kind of seeing her develop this crush, but not feel like this unrequited crush.
00:23:23.839 --> 00:23:27.279
Like it felt like slowly but surely he was reciprocating those feelings.
00:23:27.359 --> 00:23:31.839
Even the first day with the gun practice, he was very patient and calm with her.
00:23:32.000 --> 00:23:41.680
And at first, we of course learned about his sexuality later on, but I was wondering, oh, because we're seeing everything through Ash's point of view, was there any derivative or bias?
00:23:41.759 --> 00:23:45.519
Are we seeing any like emotions or like rose-colored classes heightened?
00:23:45.680 --> 00:23:48.720
Did you worry about that all when you were writing those first scenes?
00:23:48.880 --> 00:23:53.119
Because at first in my head, I never thought, like, oh, like he could be gay.
00:23:54.079 --> 00:23:54.720
Yeah.
00:23:55.039 --> 00:24:14.880
Um I'm trying to think how I I tried to approach it the way Ash would have um reacted in the day, which is that it wouldn't have crossed her mind.
00:24:15.680 --> 00:24:26.880
So she interprets any fondness as as friendship um early on.
00:24:27.119 --> 00:24:32.240
And then kind of as it deepens, she's like, does he know?
00:24:32.400 --> 00:24:33.599
Does he not know?
00:24:34.160 --> 00:24:47.279
And and she doesn't really know where they stand, and I tried very hard to um keep it within her perspective and understanding of the world.
00:24:47.680 --> 00:24:54.079
Um, and that's actually the reason that I decided to do single point of view instead of dual point of view.
00:24:54.240 --> 00:24:56.559
Most of my romance is dual point of view.
00:24:56.720 --> 00:25:02.799
I did think that writing dual point of view and dual timeline could get to be a lot for the reader.
00:25:03.920 --> 00:25:07.119
I was afraid that that could get a little just too much.
00:25:07.279 --> 00:25:19.920
Um, but I also felt like I really you're already reading a book with a modern sensibility where you have more knowledge and understanding than the character does.
00:25:20.160 --> 00:25:31.279
Um, but so I I didn't want to overlay that with um providing a point of view where he's gonna straight up tell you, you know, what he's thinking.
00:25:31.359 --> 00:25:43.279
I really wanted the reader to be rooted in um Ashley's perspective so that they could um understand what she's thinking and how she's understanding the world.
00:25:43.680 --> 00:25:44.480
That's fair.
00:25:44.720 --> 00:25:48.400
And so with Rook, we later learned that he was bisexual.
00:25:48.480 --> 00:25:55.200
So he loved Ash when she was, when he thought he was a man, and then it translated to when she was a woman.
00:25:55.359 --> 00:25:59.359
And bisexuality was a very taboo, illegal topic at this time.
00:25:59.519 --> 00:26:04.720
What was it like navigating and writing that type of character during World War I and World War II?
00:26:05.039 --> 00:26:31.759
Yeah, I mean, so obviously homosexuality and bisexuality existed, and um I think was even kind of overlooked and tolerated to an extent, but then it it was like the wrong person, it was illegal, and the wrong person finding out was would really um make matters about that.
00:26:32.319 --> 00:26:33.519
Yeah, yeah.
00:26:33.680 --> 00:27:02.799
And so um I I I didn't really um I didn't really show uh a lot of any of that kind of really happening in the war as much as like so there's a scene where a bunch of the other runners and and their friends they go off with some fancy ladies when they're when they're on leave in in France.
00:27:03.279 --> 00:27:05.759
And um Rook doesn't go.
00:27:06.160 --> 00:27:18.640
And Ash is just like, oh my god, do I need to like go have tea with this lady so that they don't figure out like it never occurs to her, oh no, they'll think that I don't like women.
00:27:19.359 --> 00:27:23.039
She she thinks, oh no, they'll figure out that I'm a girl.
00:27:23.200 --> 00:27:35.200
Um, but then when Rook doesn't go, and she sort of wonders why, and he sort of looks at her, she's there's a line, um, he looks at her like he knows more than she does, or something like that.
00:27:35.519 --> 00:27:55.920
And so that was kind of my nod to the to the reader, like, yes, he's been with men, he assumes in this moment that perhaps um that Ash might be the same, and and and that's kind of a turning point moment for him in in his brain of how things are.
00:27:56.400 --> 00:28:28.400
Um, but I did feel like I had to make it clear when Ash was reflecting on everything after she's learned that he's alive and she's trying to figure out like, are we friends, are we more, that it's something that she's afraid to talk about because it could get him into trouble and she's confused and and she and I really wanted to make it clear that like that that that was a dangerous thing at that time and she's very sensitive to that fact.
00:28:28.880 --> 00:28:43.440
Yeah, yeah, you definitely could tell her sensitivity and see her as three years grow wiser and understand the way things work, especially with the time jump where it happened is in 1939, and they haven't seen each other in 20 years.
00:28:43.519 --> 00:28:53.119
And to me, when I saw it, I thought when they saw each other it was going to be this very like grand like reunion, but it was very soft where they like embrace and then he kind of walks her home.
00:28:53.200 --> 00:28:58.480
And I was like, oh my gosh, like that's it, we're already back in the war, and then it builds up as we continue on.
00:28:58.640 --> 00:29:05.839
But why did you decide to have this reunion between them that was shorter rather than a longer drawn out one?
00:29:06.160 --> 00:29:18.000
I felt like there was just like so much between them, and so much um, like the initial reunion was very much a visceral, oh my god, you're alive.
00:29:18.160 --> 00:29:20.160
I'm so happy you're alive.
00:29:20.480 --> 00:29:23.680
But then also it was a shock.
00:29:24.160 --> 00:29:34.160
And I felt like once they sat with their feelings, there there it would drag up, it would drag up the trauma of the war, but it would also drag up a lot of like, wait a minute.
00:29:34.240 --> 00:29:52.880
And so Ash needed time to sit with her feelings and realize that I mean, this was someone who she cared about deeply, and and and she had lied to him, and she had lied out of necessity, but she had lied to him, and so she has a lot of feelings around how he's feeling about that.
00:29:53.119 --> 00:30:03.599
Um, and it also gave space for Rook to process those feelings, um, because he definitely had a lot of them too.
00:30:03.680 --> 00:30:16.319
I mean, he kind of went through they they had grieved each other for for decades, and um, so certainly a sense of betrayal of like we were so close and you never felt like you could tell me.
00:30:16.480 --> 00:30:28.480
Um, and he had to work through those feelings, and so I felt like um to to to be true to their characters, I had to give them that moment and then give them space to kind of sit with that moment.
00:30:28.720 --> 00:30:39.599
Right, because we are very familiar with Ash's feelings, and then we kind of see Rook's real feelings through Ash's interpretation and speculation and also her own guilt.
00:30:39.759 --> 00:30:48.880
But if you were to ever do a chapter that was in Rook's point of view or like a bonus chapter of maybe that reunion, how do you think what do you think the main emotions would be?
00:30:49.119 --> 00:30:50.160
Do you think it would be relief?
00:30:50.240 --> 00:30:51.359
Do you think it would be betrayal?
00:30:51.440 --> 00:30:58.240
What do you think he would be feeling that moment he sees Ash at her lecture and also understands that she's a woman and that she lied to him?
00:30:58.559 --> 00:31:01.119
I think it would be all of that.
00:31:01.359 --> 00:31:33.519
I think but I think he moved through the stages pretty quickly because um, you know, this is a person who's lived a lot of life and he's gone through the war and he's gone through the aftermath of the war, and and so I think it it at first it would be shock and confusion and then and then relief that he she's alive and and he's found her because he he did look for her after the war and um never was able to find her.
00:31:34.160 --> 00:31:47.119
And I think that he s he would be like the angry because if he had known he would have had the right questions to potentially find her.
00:31:47.359 --> 00:32:04.640
Um, but I think he worked through it pretty quickly because I think Rook, as someone who has has lost so much in his life, he was orphaned from a young age and lost people in the war, and and then Ash came in and kind of opened his heart again.
00:32:04.720 --> 00:32:09.279
And I I think he would have quickly understood why she did what she did.
00:32:09.359 --> 00:32:13.839
They were young and and it was what it was, and they ran out of time as well.
00:32:14.000 --> 00:32:16.880
And I think he he would have moved through it.
00:32:17.119 --> 00:32:29.039
Um, I think what you see in the scene where they come back together and he's asking her a lot of questions about, you know, was this true, was that true about you?
00:32:29.119 --> 00:32:32.799
And he realizes like her gender is the only thing she lied about.
00:32:33.119 --> 00:32:40.960
I think that since it didn't really matter to him in the end, it it it he he's over it pretty quickly.
00:32:41.279 --> 00:32:55.519
Yeah, that makes sense because he definitely came to acceptance with things more than she did, and really he really helped with her growth and kind of moving along, especially with the preparation for the second war, and then the epilogue jumps to afterwards, which was nice.
00:32:55.599 --> 00:32:58.720
I don't know if I could take seeing them go through another war.
00:32:59.119 --> 00:33:13.519
But we've talked about the two main characters, but one thing that almost felt like another character in this was war poetry, comes consistently comes up throughout the book, and then in the beginning of the 1939 chapters, there's a poem before each one.
00:33:13.680 --> 00:33:16.319
Why did you decide to do war poetry?
00:33:16.960 --> 00:33:28.160
It it I would say that when I was researching, I kind of fell down a rabbit hole of war poetry, and and particularly the poet Charles Hamilton Sorley.
00:33:28.559 --> 00:33:30.240
Um, and I don't remember why.
00:33:30.319 --> 00:33:31.599
I don't, it's too long ago.
00:33:31.680 --> 00:33:34.640
I don't remember how I found him or how that started.
00:33:34.880 --> 00:33:40.319
It may have been because he had a poem that he wrote probably before the war um about runners.
00:33:40.559 --> 00:33:43.200
I think he was a runner when he was in school.
00:33:43.359 --> 00:34:00.079
Um, but I it it it became it really so I read his biography, I watched a play that was written about him that was streamed during COVID, and I read all of his poetry, but also lots of other poetry as well.
00:34:01.119 --> 00:34:12.320
And I think it's a really interesting way to learn and research the war and the sort of psychology of the war.
00:34:12.480 --> 00:34:14.320
Um, because the poetry ran the gamut.
00:34:14.480 --> 00:34:18.559
There was poetry that was like, it's your duty to go die for your country.
00:34:18.639 --> 00:34:19.840
Come on, boys, let's go.
00:34:20.000 --> 00:34:27.760
And there was poetry that was obviously written as a response to that poetry that was like, this is brutal and it's horrible and we hate it here.
00:34:28.079 --> 00:34:36.159
Um, and I think it it's a really because they could write letters home, but the letters were heavily redacted.
00:34:36.400 --> 00:34:41.119
Um and I it it provided an outlet.
00:34:41.199 --> 00:34:53.039
It was such a fascinating time with so many young, educated young men with a lot of time on their hands in between skirmishes putting their feelings down on paper.
00:34:53.199 --> 00:35:02.000
And I think it it really it was a it was a great research tool, but it it felt like it really influenced the story.
00:35:02.159 --> 00:35:15.679
And actually, in one of the earliest drafts, I had Sorley as a character who Ash meets, and then I think in that version she found his final poem after he he died very early in the war.
00:35:15.840 --> 00:35:18.800
Um, and ultimately I changed that a lot.
00:35:18.960 --> 00:36:11.599
She doesn't even go to war until after he would have um passed on, but um but it it it it influenced the early draft so heavily that I really wanted to bring it out in this one, and so um so Ash has studied it, and I thought that would have really helped her overcome um some of her grief and trauma after the war, just kind of burying herself in that poetry because she was someone who loved Dickens and Shakespeare and and words and poetry, and she writes her own poem during the war, and so it it just all kind of fell together really beautifully, and I wasn't initially planning to do the little epigraphs, but I I loved the poetry so much, and I I think there are certain poems everyone knows and certain poets everyone knows.
00:36:11.760 --> 00:37:02.559
Um, but like Charles Sorley, he wasn't terribly prolific because he died so young, and so many were like that, and I kind of wanted to it I wrestled with whether it would be too indulgent to do it, but I really wanted to um to expose some of that poetry to the readers because I talk about it so much, I felt like people might wonder about it, and so I wanted to um honor the poets in a way, and and it fit really well because Ash is is out here lecturing on the poetry, and so I wanted to sort of show here some of the poems that she might be reflecting on as she's reflecting on this part of the past or the present of her own story.
00:37:02.880 --> 00:37:04.719
Yeah, that's really interesting.
00:37:04.960 --> 00:37:09.039
I didn't know that the letters home were redacted, but I guess that would make sense.
00:37:09.199 --> 00:37:15.599
I can imagine that would be hard, and it was just like emotional at times be reading the book and seeing what they go through or seeing war movies.
00:37:15.760 --> 00:37:25.039
So it makes sense poetry would be an outlet, and I definitely think it's fascinating because we don't really see a lot of times men, especially young men, getting in touch with their emotions.
00:37:25.199 --> 00:37:33.679
Yes, yes, and war poetry is one of the few times that we do, and there's so much, to your point, a span of it of people who love the ward, hated the ward.
00:37:33.840 --> 00:37:41.039
Almost reminds me of like a discussion forum almost that they make you do in college, but just separate separate um places.
00:37:41.360 --> 00:37:42.960
But we have a few minutes left.
00:37:43.119 --> 00:37:48.880
I know we've just had some pretty somber moments in our conversation, but I always like to end with some fun questions.
00:37:48.960 --> 00:37:52.880
And one of the bright spots of the book is the dog, Maxine.
00:37:53.039 --> 00:37:56.239
And she lives to be over 20 years old.
00:37:56.400 --> 00:37:57.760
And I am not complaining.
00:37:57.920 --> 00:37:59.360
I am a huge dog lover.
00:37:59.519 --> 00:38:07.199
I hate when the dog dies, but I saw even in your author's note that you defended her age with other historical dogs who lived to be that long.
00:38:07.360 --> 00:38:12.880
Why was it important to you that we saw this dog from beginning to end with the story?
00:38:13.199 --> 00:38:17.440
I for one thing, the dog had to survive.
00:38:17.760 --> 00:38:33.599
And um, it's funny because one of the questions that people who uh have had read the earliest versions of this from 13 years ago had asked me was, Does the dog die?
00:38:34.000 --> 00:38:39.760
And I'm like, no, the dog doesn't die, to the point that I even put a note in the front of the book.
00:38:40.480 --> 00:38:41.199
I saw that.
00:38:41.440 --> 00:38:58.719
And and depending on where your if someone's reading an e-book, depending on where your e-reader opens, you may not see it, but but it it it's straight very, very clear because it is a book about war and and characters do die, but um, but I wanted to make it very clear the dog doesn't die.
00:38:58.960 --> 00:39:09.840
And when I was writing the epilogue, I got to the end and Stuart was gonna be there, and I was like, well, he's gonna have to have a dog with him.
00:39:10.320 --> 00:39:14.719
And I thought, well, it can't not be Max.
00:39:15.519 --> 00:39:27.599
Because if it is some other dog, even though it's been years, then by implication, the dog has died, even though maybe it's old age.
00:39:28.000 --> 00:39:30.159
And I was like, I'm not I can't do it.
00:39:30.239 --> 00:39:32.639
We gotta have Max in in that in that scene.
00:39:32.880 --> 00:39:35.360
I guess it wasn't the epilogue, it was It was towards the end.
00:39:35.840 --> 00:39:37.039
It was towards the end, yeah, yeah.
00:39:37.119 --> 00:39:38.800
The epilogue's even later.
00:39:39.119 --> 00:39:45.840
Um, but yeah, and so it's like there there I can't um I can't do that.
00:39:46.079 --> 00:39:55.760
And so I I did some research about like, well, how long, you know, what's not what's the average, like right, this is a romance novel.
00:39:55.920 --> 00:40:08.000
We deal in the the outside, you know, the the so I found cases that supported the concept concept that this dog could still be alive.
00:40:08.320 --> 00:40:10.000
And I said, that's good enough for me.
00:40:10.159 --> 00:40:13.760
It's possible, so it's it's I'm gonna do it.
00:40:13.920 --> 00:40:20.239
And and I had complaints that were like, no, absolutely not, that dog would not still be alive.
00:40:20.480 --> 00:40:25.519
And so I thought about taking it out, and I thought, no, I really don't care.
00:40:25.679 --> 00:40:30.000
Like I um it and you know, I mean, I I had a dog.
00:40:30.159 --> 00:40:37.360
Um I I don't remember trying to think when we got the dog versus when I put the original draft of this book.
00:40:37.519 --> 00:40:43.199
Probably got the dog after I had put the first version of the book away.
00:40:43.519 --> 00:40:48.000
And um, and then we lost her a few years ago, and now we have another dog.
00:40:48.400 --> 00:40:53.519
And um, I was like, I there's just no world in which I can even imply that this dog isn't still here.
00:40:53.599 --> 00:40:59.280
And I and I thought it was also just kind of a sweet, funny moment of like, oh my god, oh my god, the dog's still here.
00:40:59.440 --> 00:41:01.360
He's still here, she's amazing, you know.
00:41:01.440 --> 00:41:06.880
And so I just kept it and said, like, sorry if you hated that, but you're at the end of the book, so exactly.
00:41:07.119 --> 00:41:09.039
You made a promise that the dog was not gonna die.
00:41:09.280 --> 00:41:09.360
Right.
00:41:10.239 --> 00:41:11.519
I had to keep the promise.
00:41:11.679 --> 00:41:15.360
I didn't feel like I could keep that line in the beginning.
00:41:15.599 --> 00:41:22.719
If and some people forgot about reading that in the beginning, and then were like as they were reading this version, like, oh my god, oh my god.
00:41:22.880 --> 00:41:24.960
And and I was like, Did you not see the note?
00:41:25.039 --> 00:41:27.679
Like, I promised you the dog wouldn't die.
00:41:27.920 --> 00:41:28.320
You know what?
00:41:28.480 --> 00:41:32.639
I saw the note, and I just assumed like we weren't gonna see the dog get brutally killed.
00:41:32.880 --> 00:41:36.960
But when I so when I saw the dog at like the very end, I was like, oh my gosh, you really did keep her comment.
00:41:37.199 --> 00:41:39.119
The dog does not does not die.
00:41:39.360 --> 00:41:47.519
Okay, so my second to last question, I always like to ask authors what their least favorite trope is, whether it be romance or books as a whole.
00:41:47.760 --> 00:41:52.320
I interview a lot of romance authors, so a lot of times I get the unplanned pregnancy trope.
00:41:52.480 --> 00:41:56.159
A lot of people question friends to lovers because it doesn't make sense to them.
00:41:56.320 --> 00:41:59.360
I got character, like main characters dying at the end.
00:41:59.519 --> 00:42:01.519
Someone's told me I hate when they get cancer.
00:42:01.599 --> 00:42:03.679
It can literally be anything you want.
00:42:03.840 --> 00:42:10.000
So, what would you say is your least favorite trope to see in a book or a trope you cannot see yourself writing?
00:42:10.800 --> 00:42:11.599
Gosh.
00:42:12.639 --> 00:42:16.400
Um I don't read a lot of billionaire romance.
00:42:16.639 --> 00:42:23.599
Well, that's not a fair statement because I read a ton of historical romance, and I guess if there's a rich duke, that's basically billionaire romance.
00:42:23.760 --> 00:42:24.960
The equivalent of a billionaire.
00:42:25.199 --> 00:42:26.400
But you don't read modern billionaire.
00:42:26.880 --> 00:42:28.400
I don't read modern billionaire romance.
00:42:28.559 --> 00:42:36.559
That's so I that's and I you know what I don't like, I don't like the alpha hole trope.
00:42:36.719 --> 00:42:40.800
I like I write cinnamon rolls, I like cinnamon rolls.
00:42:41.039 --> 00:42:45.360
So I I think it would be the the alpha hole would would be the one I would say.
00:42:45.599 --> 00:42:46.960
That's fair, that's fair.
00:42:47.119 --> 00:42:52.400
I do read billionaire romance, but I also acknowledge how crazy it can be.
00:42:52.480 --> 00:42:53.840
So I can appreciate your answer.
00:42:55.039 --> 00:43:00.480
I mean it's not for everyone, and sometimes even like this isn't even a little much for for me.
00:43:00.800 --> 00:43:04.480
And I I wouldn't even say that I avoid it.
00:43:04.719 --> 00:43:14.239
I would say I haven't actively sought it out in contemporary, but historical is my cozy happy place.
00:43:14.320 --> 00:43:19.519
So I read probably three to four times more historical than contemporary.
00:43:19.920 --> 00:43:37.119
And so I'm definitely reading it in the historical concept, but I would say um when I read contemporary, it's usually more just that something about it, a friend has written it, or something about it has something about the story has caught my eye.
00:43:37.199 --> 00:43:38.960
So I'm not actively avoiding it.
00:43:39.039 --> 00:43:44.239
If somebody has the best ever villainair romance that I need to read, I will happily check it out.
00:43:44.559 --> 00:43:52.000
Well, if you're ever, if you're ever in craving it randomly, I can send you some of my Rex and billionaire romances I feel are less cringy.
00:43:52.159 --> 00:44:01.440
But of course, my final question for you, closing out The Unknown Birds, is what do you want people to take away after they've read the book?
00:44:02.000 --> 00:44:17.039
I think so when I wrote this book, um the recent version of it, um, I was feeling a certain sort of way about everything that's going on in the world.
00:44:17.360 --> 00:44:30.880
And so when Ash is in 1939 feeling like, oh my god, it's happening again, I felt like that was a lot of what we're all feeling about everything that's going on in the world.
00:44:31.199 --> 00:44:36.320
And I think readers will respond different ways to that.
00:44:36.480 --> 00:44:45.119
Um, but I did have someone who had read she was a beta reader for the early drafts of the other book, of the other version.
00:44:45.840 --> 00:44:52.079
And I said, Will you read this and tell me if you still like it as much as you liked that version?
00:44:52.800 --> 00:45:14.400
And she said it really resonated with how she's feeling with the world today, and so I think that's my hope that it gives um people who are feeling like everything might be a little bit terrible, that there's light at the end of the tunnel.
00:45:14.559 --> 00:45:17.840
Um, I that's what I hope people take away from it.
00:45:18.079 --> 00:45:28.559
Yeah, I feel like we definitely need that hope and seeing kind of like the optimism towards the end was just like I feel like the cherry on top for this book because I truly enjoyed it.
00:45:28.719 --> 00:45:31.920
I don't know if I'll start reading more contemporary romance like you do by.
00:45:32.079 --> 00:45:39.119
It's definitely opened me to seeing different historical romances and learning more about that time period.
00:45:39.199 --> 00:45:39.920
So I thank you for that.
00:45:40.000 --> 00:45:43.360
You definitely have changed my reading trajectory for the rest of the I love it.
00:45:43.440 --> 00:45:47.679
Well, if you ever need historical recommendations, I've got the longest list.
00:45:47.760 --> 00:45:50.320
So I might hit you up on that.
00:45:50.559 --> 00:45:53.440
Well, thank you so much for joining me today.
00:45:53.599 --> 00:45:54.800
This has been such a treat.
00:45:55.039 --> 00:45:55.599
Amazing.
00:45:55.840 --> 00:45:57.119
It's been great talking to you.
00:45:57.280 --> 00:45:57.840
Thank you so much.
00:45:58.320 --> 00:45:59.599
Thank you so much for listening.
00:45:59.679 --> 00:46:00.960
I hope you enjoyed that.
00:46:01.119 --> 00:46:06.559
Be sure to read The Unknown Birds if you haven't already, and follow Rose on Instagram.
00:46:06.800 --> 00:46:09.599
Now, next week I'm doing something different again.
00:46:09.840 --> 00:46:12.239
I am interviewing a book influencer.
00:46:12.400 --> 00:46:22.159
Her name is Ika, and we met at a book launch event over the summer, and she is so sweet, and she has over 70,000 followers on TikTok.
00:46:22.400 --> 00:46:33.360
So we're gonna talk about her journey into book content creation, what the biggest challenges and joys are, basically the behind the scenes of becoming a successful book talk influencer.
00:46:33.599 --> 00:46:38.639
And also bonding over our taste in fantasy and contemporary romance as well.
00:46:38.880 --> 00:46:42.320
I'm super excited to talk with her, and I hope you come back for it.
00:46:42.480 --> 00:46:44.639
Have a great week, my book butterflies.
00:46:44.719 --> 00:46:46.079
I'll see you next time.
