WEBVTT
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Welcome to Locals, the podcast in which we talk to people who are local.
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Today's conversation is with Catherine McLaughlin, therapist, swimmer, Tai Chi student, and upon a time, nationally ranked powerlifter.
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Today we'll talk about the therapy part.
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Brains, bodies, EMDR, and more.
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Now this episode is just a bit longer than usual.
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Not a lot.
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I try to keep the episodes to 30 minutes or so because it often feels right for the arc of a conversation.
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But also because I assume, if you're like me, you know there are a lot of detective shows on Brid Box that are not going to watch themselves.
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Usually, I feel I should let you get to it.
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But I think Catherine's interview this week hits a sweet spot of having a very interesting backstory, as well as important knowledge well articulated.
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So she gets a full 45 minutes on this one.
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Sorry, Lori, Jim, Steve, Debbie, Connor, Karen, Cardi, Carrie, Abby et al.
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Definitely for you next time.
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As a therapist, Catherine is a guide on the journey to self.
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Therapy usually begins with need, but I think it often continues through appetite.
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Again, for self-knowledge.
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To quote our walking and talking friend Socrates, the unexamined life is not worth living.
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I think Socrates was deep and possibly did not have a lot else going on.
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There are many other things worth living for.
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Ibid, see Britbox comment.
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Anyway, Catherine is waiting.
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Let us begin our session.
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So Catherine, it's nice to talk to you.
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Nice to be here, thank you.
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You and I just came from Jim Burt's Tai Chi class at Bloom Fitness.
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I had Jim on two weeks ago.
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So we're both relaxed and that's nice.
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So uh you are a therapist.
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Psychologist, I'm a therapist.
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Psychologist.
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Yeah.
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Is that the term?
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Should I call you a psychologist or a therapist?
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Yeah, psychologist, that's a licensed profession.
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So I have to sit for my boards and do a certain amount of continuing ed credits every two years and that kind of thing.
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As I said, our daughter just became a licensed therapist.
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She's past her board, she's able to work without supervision now.
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So it's a brave new world for her.
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Now, first of all, I remember your mother.
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Oh Mary Ann.
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And I think of her walking.
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Yeah.
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She's a walker.
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Yes.
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She loved to walk.
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In the morning, she would get up.
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And at that time, for for a number of years, there was early morning swimming and water aerobics down at the middle school.
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And so she would get up and walk down.
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It was about two miles.
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We lived up on a College Hill at the very top.
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She would walk down, do her water aerobics, walk back home.
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And very often, as I was out and about seeing people that we both knew, they would say, I saw your mom walking down by the library.
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Oh, I saw your mom in the Salvation Army.
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Oh, I saw your mom walking up the hill.
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So she got out and about in Bloomsburg and really was a very beautiful, lovely person.
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She was.
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I remember her husband.
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And actually she volunteered here at the library for quite a while.
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For quite a while.
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In fact, she knew Jim's wife.
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Oh, Carol Bennish.
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Yes, Carol.
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Yeah.
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Well, that's great.
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Yeah.
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Well, talk about your journey into therapy.
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Let's start early though.
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You are a Bloomsburg local.
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You grew up here.
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Tell me about your childhood into therapy.
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Well, coming into Bloomsburg, we moved here.
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We lived in State College where my dad went back to school to get a doctorate in what was called special ed at the time.
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And then he came to the university and worked at the university as a special ed professor when it was Bloomsburg State College.
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And so that was seventh grade.
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So I went to junior high and senior high.
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I, you know, because of uh I think because of historical and internal turmoil for for me, I wasn't really happy in school and I had a hard time.
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Um kind of, I guess just with general adjustment.
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So I went to St.
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Cyril's.
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They they sent me to St.
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Cyril's for two years and I would in Danville.
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Yes.
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And I really, I feel like I thrived there.
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I was not Catholic, and so I did not attend the Catholic-based services and that type of thing.
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But um, I found the focus, the intense focus on academics was drew me in and I really enjoyed it.
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And then I went to uh my senior year, I went to Mexico as an exchange student.
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I was sponsored by the Bloomsburg Rotary that uh had Dick Benefield, was was uh founding member of that.
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Yes, and I had worked, I had I I had worked during uh starting at age 16, I had worked at the smorgasboard that you know he was sort of famous for.
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So I I knew him and he liked me enough to promote me and help help me become a change student.
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So I went to Mexico my senior year of high school and attended my senior year of high school there in Mexico in a city uh named Querétaro.
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And that's a colonial city, sort of in the heart of Mexico.
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If you just kind of took a pin and put it in what you thought was the middle of the landmass of Mexico, that that's where it would be, an inland colonial city, about 200,000, I think.
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Formed in Morelia, Mexico.
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It's a wonderful place.
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I loved Mexico.
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I loved Mexico.
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I had a lot of there's a thread running throughout my life.
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I had turmoil, you know, and so I wasn't uh a hundred percent stable during my time there.
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So it wasn't sort of the idealized version.
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However, people were so kind to me, so giving, so friendly, that it was it was really a wonderful interaction with the culture, with the people there.
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Um it was a small enough town slash city that you could know most people and get to know people.
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And of course there was wonderful fiestas and weddings, and just the town itself was very beautiful with uh, you know, central square where there was music sometimes.
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Oh yes.
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You know, so so there there was a lot.
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There was a lot there that year, and and of course I learned Spanish, which was nice.
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Yes.
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And then you came back after that to go to college, or did you reside in Bloomsburg for a time?
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I came back to go to college.
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Um and at that time I was interested in uh Barbara Walters actually was one of my idols.
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You know, she was so good at interviewing people, you know, she could get from people what other people didn't seem to be able to get.
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And I really admired her.
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You know, she's a woman in the field, she was strong, she asked direct questions, and so I I felt like I wanted to be her.
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And so I went to a small communications college, it's Emerson College, and I went there for a year.
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In Boston, yeah.
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In Boston, Emerson College.
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Wow, yeah.
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Emerson has a wonderful film school as well.
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Our son applied to went elsewhere, but went up and saw Emerson.
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Yeah, yeah, it was just it was just small, and you know, I had I got uh I was my friend that I met there, and uh and I put a little radio show together in Spanish.
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It just lasts maybe a year, less than a year, but still it was wonderful.
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And then the end of my freshman year, I had a psychological breakdown.
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Now, later in life, a number of years later, maybe 20, 25 years later, I was able to get a firm diagnosis of of bipolar disorder.
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But we didn't know anything about that.
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I had a psychotic episode, and I ended up, I ended up calling my my parents.
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My mom, I said, you know, I was just frightened and I was out of touch with almost everything, and I just said, I think I'm dying, I think somebody's trying to kill me.
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I'm just, you know.
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And so my mother flew right up.
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She got on a plane and flew up, and I was admitted to a small private hospital where where my diagnosis was schizophrenia.
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And so that was pretty intense.
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Yes.
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Pretty intense.
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Bipolar wasn't really known very well at the time.
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This was when I was 20, so that was 50 years ago.
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So 50, roll back 50 years in the mental health field, and it just really wasn't understood.
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I don't even think it was really on the radar.
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So that at that time, if you if a person were discovered to be hearing voices, boom, it was pretty much of a that's schizophrenia.
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If they're outside the head.
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If they're inside the head, we don't know yet.
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But if they're outside the head, they're responding to voices that feel like they're coming from outside the head, which I was, it was called schizophrenia.
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So that was scary, uh, poignantly to me to this day.
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I did not recognize my mother for two weeks when she came every day to be with me.
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Um and but, you know, we we got through it.
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I, you know, was medicated and then came home here to Bloomsburg and was enrolled in uh the program, the day program at Geisinger.
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And so I spent my whole summer there attending, attending the day program, learning and rehabbing, essentially.
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Because it was serious, you know, and when so that people understand to an extent, you know, that I understand, which is not fully, that psychotic episode really kind of wipes you out.
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I really lost the ability to read fluently, lost the ability to concentrate.
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You know, really is kind of like a big fat brain crash.
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And so there's the there's the rehabilitation from that, learning to organize, learning to make a plan of what I'm gonna do with the day, learning to read again, you know, starting a page and then, you know, something brief, and then, you know, progressing to a short story and that type of thing.
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So, you know, when people talk about, you know, psychotic episodes, it's really quite a quite a mentally uh uh difficult space to be in.
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Now, was this late 70s?
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Well, let's see.
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I was born in 1956, so I was 20, so it was 1976.
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All right.
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Well, you and I were traveling a very similar journey at that time because my mother, as I mentioned, was bipolar.
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Yeah.
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And she was first, she had let me two to three hospital stays in her adult life after my father passed away, and that was been the first time where she was diagnosed.
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And they she was diagnosed as schizophrenic too.
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Isn't that interesting?
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She was having the same thing.
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She was having, of course, these grandiose beliefs, but also was being told what to do by people.
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And we had this amazing journey where we were taking her from Oklahoma up to Minnesota, and my sister m met her to fly her, and then she was we lost her in O'Hare Airport.
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O'Gare.
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Yes, in a full-blown episode.
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So she was found.
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So but uh and she was a very smart woman, and yeah, it did take a toll on her.
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And then later it was she was diagnosed as bipolar.
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Yeah, as the underst standing, you know, and the ability to do a differential diagnosis than than um people who had formerly been sort of put in that schizophrenia pot.
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Yes.
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Um I do remember when I came here later in life, you know, seeing a psychiatrist here, Dr.
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Botaraco, who's now has retired, but you know, saying, I said, Oh well, I have schizophrenia.
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And she it's so interesting.
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She lowered a glass if she had these like half glasses, and she lowered and she looked over them at me and she said, You are not schizophrenic.
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And I said, Okay, well, I've had three psychotic episodes.
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And she said, Okay, you've had three psychotic episodes.
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We'll go from there.
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And then later, years later, when I when I realized and I put some information myself together from education sources that I was bipolar, I, you know, I w saw her again.
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I reinstituted therapy, I saw her again, and she had actually written rule out, which means maybe bipolar.
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So she had she had had that in her notes.
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So that was that matched, so which was nice.
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How fortunate it was that you found a doctor who saw and questioned and got you that next step to a diagnosis that was a good solid functional diagnosis for you.
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Yeah, a good diagnosis can really be freeing, it can be orienting.
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Yes, this is what I'm experiencing.
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Now I have an orientation, a way to make my way through it.
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Because these are the things that happen, so I can expect them, I can orient to them, I can work with that.
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Well, that is also fortunate, and I think you and I are in of a generation that's lucky enough to accept that as a mental condition or illness.
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And my mother's generation wasn't.
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So she didn't come to where you come.
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I think she struggled always and just wouldn't accept it, didn't believe it, rationalized it other ways.
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But I don't think she had what she had was that moment of freedom and okay, well, this is me, and this answers a lot about me and my life.
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And so to go forth now, I know I need to find the tools.
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And you were fortunate.
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She did not.
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It was partly her family, but also a generational thing.
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It was for sure.
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Yeah.
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The Geisinger clinic wouldn't she would have called that a an insane asylum.
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So there's all that stigma and fear and that with a different generation.
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But we're more fortunate.
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I think of therapy like I think of my primary care physician.
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That I go, well, if I am in dis-ease, it's not working itself out quickly enough on my own, then I go to somebody who helps me figure it out, move on, and it's all good.
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We live in a fortunate time.
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I think.
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Yeah, and I think really, you know, I'm 70, as I said, that it's our generation that's sort of the the vanguard or the the first generation to really have that, you know, acceptance and structure.
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As you said, you know, our parents really didn't quite so much.
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I was lucky my dad was in a field where where he worked with, you know, different individuals and was very s uh supportive and and my mother was, you know, very open and was able to be very very supportive.
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So again, I I was lucky within my family to to have that.
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Now, did that lead you to being and Barbara Walters?
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Yeah.
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Lead you to wanting to be a therapist and a psychologist?
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Yeah, I mean it was it was absolutely clear I wasn't going back to to Beacon Street, to Emerson College.
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Um that was out of the picture.
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Part of what uh s sent me around the bend there, I think, was the transition from Bloomsburg to Mexico, back to Bloomsburg, and then right back to inner city, all the stimulation.
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And and at the time, you know, I look very Irish, blue eyes, fair skin, that type of thing.
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And within Boston, there was a racial difficulty, uh, blacks versus Irish.
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There was a lot of tension.
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Yes, there was.
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Uh, and and I I think uh you would find that if you looked, uh, if you looked for it, you would you would find that on record.
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And so I unfortunately was somewhat targeted within my class at Emerson.
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And so yeah, that was crummy.
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Wow, I never heard of that.
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Yeah, the the blacks and the Irish in Boston, yeah.
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And I think it had to do with immigration status back when, of who came next and then who came next, and that type of thing.
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But anyway, that that was what it was.
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And so there were just different uh different things that it's kind of like, no, I I in no way able to handle that.
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One of the very good things that I remember a family meeting at Geisinger, the doctor, the psychiatrist, I was mom and dad and and me, and he said, you know, your best chances, because at that point it was I could stay sick and not get better, I could get better and have intermittent mental health issues, or I could just get better and stay better.
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So it was, you know, thirds.
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So he said, you know, your best chances for being healthy is structure, exercise, get back in school and start using your mind, and get on a sleep program.
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And so that was super basic, simple, and really important information.
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And that's what we did.
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You know, I went back to school at at the end of um my day program.
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I went I went back to school in Bloomsburg, enrolled there, and heck, study psychology, you know.
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Yeah.
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Uh so I'm, you know, I'm sure I picked that as yeah because uh I did want to find out or had some interest or thought I could handle it.
00:17:44.000 --> 00:17:47.359
I it seemed like that was where I landed.
00:17:47.680 --> 00:17:52.480
But you also bring something to your sessions that others may not.
00:17:52.640 --> 00:17:54.960
You can share an experience with your clients.
00:17:55.519 --> 00:17:55.839
Yeah.
00:17:56.079 --> 00:17:58.319
I don't say, hey, I'm bipolar.
00:17:58.559 --> 00:18:00.000
I don't bring that up.
00:18:00.079 --> 00:18:02.640
I don't say, hey, I've been hospitalized myself.
00:18:02.880 --> 00:18:07.599
And so that the sharing is very internal inside of me.
00:18:07.759 --> 00:18:26.240
So there is a sharing, and I believe I've gotten enough feedback uh to know that it's palpable, even if it may be unspoken, that it's kind of like there's a resonance or a an approach that says to a certain extent, I get it, that's authentic.
00:18:26.400 --> 00:18:32.640
And and since it is authentic, it is received in that way almost always.
00:18:33.039 --> 00:18:39.039
Oh, I'm sure you know and so and so yeah, I mean, it has given me lots of background.
00:18:39.119 --> 00:18:50.000
I've been through the system a number of times, so you know, I've had the education, the the training and coping skills myself, rather than kind of just reading about what are good coping skills.
00:18:50.160 --> 00:18:53.359
I've lived that and made my way with lots of help.
00:18:53.519 --> 00:19:00.480
I don't disown it because it's it's very important to and has a great value as well.
00:19:00.720 --> 00:19:03.440
Nothing you would choose, but it has its value.
00:19:03.759 --> 00:19:04.079
Absolutely.
00:19:04.400 --> 00:19:08.000
So what type of therapies do you practice?
00:19:08.400 --> 00:19:10.799
Well, when I went back to school, I went back to Penn State.
00:19:10.880 --> 00:19:24.480
I got a psych degree in Bloom, and then at that time I thought to myself, you know, yes, I want to go back to school, I need to to get into the profession in a bigger way, credentialed way, but I wanted to have some experiences as well.
00:19:24.799 --> 00:19:30.880
So I worked at a um day program options down in Bloomsburg.
00:19:31.039 --> 00:19:40.559
I got my master's at Penn State, and then I kind of I did some some jobs, worked for orientation at Penn State, incoming freshmen, that kind of thing.
00:19:40.720 --> 00:19:46.160
And then got my master's and applied after a number of years.
00:19:46.319 --> 00:19:54.559
I applied to the University of Oregon at uh Eugene, got into their doctoral program, and you know, studied there.
00:19:54.720 --> 00:20:03.440
What I studied there, which was kind of what most people were studying who were in psychology at a grad level, was CBT, cognitive behavior.
00:20:03.519 --> 00:20:14.720
And so the precursors to sort of a a consolidated CBT were uh, and many people may remember this like rational emotive reality therapy.
00:20:14.960 --> 00:20:25.920
And then Oregon was kind of cutting edge of, you know, that had very liberal, very liberal place, very um arts and culture oriented, a lot of diversity there.
00:20:26.240 --> 00:20:30.000
There were a number of faculty with interest in transpersonal psychology.
00:20:30.240 --> 00:20:33.200
So those are the things that I studied and learned there.
00:20:33.359 --> 00:20:47.920
They had a good program, they had recording studios, and so as we came into our second year, we were practicing being therapists with community members who would come in and apply to be clients, and then that was videotaped.
00:20:48.000 --> 00:20:50.319
And after it was videotaped, we had nine of us.
00:20:50.480 --> 00:21:03.680
Each of the nine people could view each other's work, and then our professors would view our work, and then we would get together in small groups and talk about the work and you know how that went and how we were applying and how it could be better and all that.
00:21:03.759 --> 00:21:08.240
So it was really solid um uh training method, I think.
00:21:08.559 --> 00:21:10.960
And the CBT is talk-based.
00:21:11.279 --> 00:21:12.160
It's talk-based, yes.
00:21:12.559 --> 00:21:14.799
And that's a difference in somatic work, yes.
00:21:14.880 --> 00:21:17.519
That would be where you approach it from the body.
00:21:18.000 --> 00:21:19.759
Yes, yes, that's right.
00:21:19.920 --> 00:21:29.759
Cognitive behavioral, and I think uh things are moving now in the direction of more somatically based, experiential.
00:21:29.839 --> 00:21:46.799
Um the cognitive at that time was coming into its own, it had a large research base, and so it could be, you know, endorsed by universities, by insurance companies, you know, and so they had a lot of research to base it on.
00:21:47.039 --> 00:21:58.240
So, yes, is talk therapy, and if you just break it down, you know, it's kind of like our thoughts, the our cognitions, the thoughts affect behavior, behavior affects thoughts.
00:21:58.400 --> 00:21:59.519
So, how do we?
00:22:00.319 --> 00:22:07.759
Bring these together and live mentally rewarding, stable lives.
00:22:08.319 --> 00:22:10.160
What's impacting our cognitions?
00:22:10.240 --> 00:22:11.359
What's impacting our thoughts?
00:22:11.440 --> 00:22:13.039
What are the historical things?
00:22:13.279 --> 00:22:19.119
What can impact them if we switch, if we change and bring new information in, bring new behaviors in?
00:22:19.279 --> 00:22:21.359
How can that impact our thoughts?
00:22:21.440 --> 00:22:25.920
Uh, which of course then affect our feelings, and how can we move forward?
00:22:26.079 --> 00:22:28.240
And I'd like to segue to EMDR.
00:22:29.039 --> 00:22:29.440
In just a minute.
00:22:29.519 --> 00:22:40.000
I want to I do want to get there, but uh so then somatically, if you're approaching an issue or a dis ease somatically, what would that look like?
00:22:40.480 --> 00:22:40.799
Okay.
00:22:41.200 --> 00:22:47.680
So you might come in and you might say, I'm feeling depressed.
00:22:48.079 --> 00:22:50.960
So I say, Well, you know, my mother died.
00:22:51.200 --> 00:22:54.799
And so I would say, Well, you know, tell me a little bit more about that.
00:22:54.880 --> 00:22:55.680
Can you tell me?
00:22:55.839 --> 00:23:00.079
And they might say, you know, at night I'm having memories or I'm having bad dreams.
00:23:00.319 --> 00:23:10.799
And at some point I would say, could you just take a moment and you know, maybe even shut your eyes if you would, and just go inside and tell me what you're feeling in your body when you say my mother died.
00:23:10.960 --> 00:23:26.480
So we're trying to tap into the connection, the nervous, the somatic, meaning body, the perceived sensations that go with the mental experience of I'm depressed.
00:23:26.559 --> 00:23:35.119
We're trying to get a much more full and broad picture as it relates to the entire being, not just headspace.
00:23:35.759 --> 00:23:43.759
And so somebody comes in and they're angry, and I'm somatic-based therapist, I would look for ways to move that energy.
00:23:43.920 --> 00:23:46.160
Often the energy might be bottled up.
00:23:46.240 --> 00:23:48.000
Okay, so where can we identify it?
00:23:48.079 --> 00:23:49.680
And there's actual body parts.
00:23:49.759 --> 00:23:52.880
So somebody says, you know, I feel it, often depression or sorrow.
00:23:53.200 --> 00:23:54.559
I feel it in my gut.
00:23:54.720 --> 00:24:00.720
And then I just say to myself, Oh, interesting, you know, shame is held in the gut, distress is held in the gut.
00:24:00.799 --> 00:24:02.319
So just take a moment and breathe.
00:24:02.400 --> 00:24:06.160
And then I might say, When you do that, you know, what comes up?
00:24:06.319 --> 00:24:07.359
What comes up?
00:24:07.519 --> 00:24:11.119
And they might go, they might say, Well, that's how I felt.
00:24:11.279 --> 00:24:21.680
That's exactly how I felt when my dad used to yell at me when I was a kid, and it would upset me so much, but I couldn't say anything because it would be bad if I said anything.
00:24:21.920 --> 00:24:25.440
So we're looking at the body storage, literal body storage.
00:24:25.519 --> 00:24:28.480
The body remembers body storage of old stuff.
00:24:28.640 --> 00:24:37.039
We're trying to just unpack the whole picture of what's going on with this person right now so that we can start to understand it together.
00:24:37.279 --> 00:24:41.680
Self-understanding itself is very big, very freeing.
00:24:41.839 --> 00:24:51.119
You know, it allows us self-compassion, it allows us to not necessarily, for example, um, sort of say, well, you know, the distress is coming from out there.
00:24:51.279 --> 00:24:54.400
This person is doing this, and that's what's upsetting me.
00:24:54.480 --> 00:25:04.400
It allows us to understand a lot of what's going on inside is coming from within me based on my history as I've gone through life.
00:25:04.559 --> 00:25:05.839
And that can be any age.
00:25:06.160 --> 00:25:07.680
Yeah, we are chemical beings too.
00:25:07.759 --> 00:25:18.319
And I think when I have huge strong emotions about something that may be anger or something, and my body is creating cortisol and adrenaline.
00:25:18.720 --> 00:25:28.480
Well, I can understand why I feel that way and work that out, but that doesn't rid your body of cortisol.
00:25:28.720 --> 00:25:32.880
Cortisol sticks around what for like 12 hours, adrenaline for 30 minutes or whatever.
00:25:33.119 --> 00:25:37.759
And so you have this emotional state that's at a point chemically based.
00:25:38.000 --> 00:25:38.559
Yes.
00:25:38.799 --> 00:25:39.200
Yes.
00:25:39.680 --> 00:25:43.759
That's still there even though you've cognitively understood it.
00:25:44.079 --> 00:25:44.400
Right.
00:25:44.559 --> 00:25:46.880
And that's where information is really important.
00:25:47.279 --> 00:25:50.480
Just information about our bodies per se.
00:25:50.720 --> 00:26:00.240
Okay, I'm in this state, so I need to be noticing for the next 24 hours or so, accepting that I'm maybe hyper-reactive during this period.
00:26:00.480 --> 00:26:13.039
I may have trouble sleeping tonight, I may be grouchy with my partner tonight, and so that we can predict that in a way, understand it, and then do things that will mitigate that.
00:26:13.440 --> 00:26:15.599
And some of the things are body-based.
00:26:15.680 --> 00:26:24.000
Now, if you're saying, okay, you're gonna do square breathing, you're going to meditate, you're going to take a slow walk.
00:26:24.319 --> 00:26:27.759
Those, in a way, are somatic interventions.
00:26:28.000 --> 00:26:28.480
Interventions.
00:26:28.799 --> 00:26:29.119
They are.
00:26:29.359 --> 00:26:40.960
So that you get absolutely the big vagus nerve we've got that goes from our brain into every part of our body, and you're calming that down and getting more into the rest and digest part of the vagal system.
00:26:41.039 --> 00:26:44.400
And those are kind of like free drugs, right?
00:26:44.880 --> 00:26:46.319
They're not they're medications.
00:26:46.640 --> 00:26:48.000
No, I think I guess intervention.
00:26:48.079 --> 00:26:48.880
You you said it better than that.
00:26:49.359 --> 00:26:53.279
Intervention, self-intervention, you know, self-directed positive behavior.
00:26:53.519 --> 00:26:59.279
Yes, you're touching on the somatic interventions as it would appear in a clinical interview.
00:26:59.440 --> 00:27:23.200
You know, it's getting in touch with where the person is aroused in their body, where they're feeling sensations in their body, and then uh the behavioral or the somatic interventions, then are, as you're saying, you know, the the meditation, the the breathing, you know, the getting up in the morning and starting right out to do a bit of breathing to sort of center meditation.
00:27:23.440 --> 00:27:33.519
I'm big on exercise with my personal experience of bipolar, having a very reactive nervous system that will not shift.
00:27:33.680 --> 00:27:36.160
You know, there's no cure for bipolar.
00:27:36.240 --> 00:27:41.039
You don't get through it, you live with it and attempt to manage it the best you can.
00:27:41.279 --> 00:27:53.920
And so those mood swings, which are you know highly energized, the upstate is highly energized, and then the downstate is sort of a collapse where you can't feel like you can't do anything.
00:27:54.160 --> 00:28:00.400
But regular exercise, exercise, you know, really provides a structure for the body.
00:28:00.640 --> 00:28:17.920
Exercise helps you breathe right, it helps you sleep right, it provides you with healthy appetite, you want to eat right, it provides you with a body awareness that while the mental places may be sort of cycling and feel like, whoa, I'm not sure where I am right now.
00:28:18.079 --> 00:28:28.240
It's like I have my body, I'm confident in it, I'm safe in my body, I can find outlets that don't require a lot of thinking and emotional control.
00:28:28.640 --> 00:28:36.400
And those outlets then bring that emotional control into line, and it's bilateral stimulation.
00:28:36.559 --> 00:28:42.079
So bilateral stimulation, we have And EMDR has arrived in our conversation.
00:28:42.400 --> 00:28:43.200
I'm very glad.
00:28:43.359 --> 00:28:43.920
Oh, good.
00:28:44.240 --> 00:28:45.920
Tell us about EMDR.
00:28:46.079 --> 00:28:47.119
Oh, EMDR.
00:28:47.279 --> 00:28:53.759
Poor capital letters, and it means eye movement, desensitization, and reprocessing.
00:28:53.920 --> 00:29:02.799
Now, the woman who came up with EMDR, Francine Shapiro, in 1989 or so, she says at this point she would rename it, or she would have wanted, she's gone.
00:29:03.039 --> 00:29:18.000
But during her uh her life, she said she she would probably rename that because you don't necessarily have to use eye movement, although the studies do show still do show that eye movement is the most potent form of bilateral stimulation.
00:29:18.160 --> 00:29:26.960
And by bilateral stimulation, I mean that we look at really basic brain structure of humans, so all of us.
00:29:27.200 --> 00:29:35.359
And if you if you know held a held a brain in your hand, you know, there's this gelatinous globular thing that looks like a maze and stuff, but there's a center line.
00:29:35.440 --> 00:29:38.160
So we have a right hemisphere and a left hemisphere.
00:29:38.319 --> 00:29:46.799
And very crudely or in a gross sense, one side does emotional processing, handles emotional work.
00:29:47.359 --> 00:29:53.759
How do I go from being upset, triggered, angry, how do I then calm myself?
00:29:53.839 --> 00:29:58.960
It just does emotional work, and then the other side is more logically based.
00:29:59.279 --> 00:30:01.680
And so we need both of those.
00:30:02.000 --> 00:30:14.400
So when we have something that's too much to handle for where we are in time and space, you could call that trauma, but trauma is an overused word right now, so we'll call it something, an event.
00:30:14.559 --> 00:30:22.480
It could be your dad yelling at you when you're a kid, or it could be being in front of a class and being humiliated, embarrassed because you forgot the lesson, something like that.
00:30:22.640 --> 00:30:30.640
Could be you had a car accident, it could be you were in the war, could be there was a physical assault, you know, there's all kinds of events.
00:30:30.880 --> 00:30:36.400
But what we're looking at is how do events process in the mind?
00:30:36.559 --> 00:30:46.720
How is the information both emotional and logical organized and processed and integrated in real time?
00:30:47.359 --> 00:31:02.480
So if an event happens that's too much for me to process in real time, something happens, I didn't see it coming, I was in a car accident, my brain will say, first things first, get through it, call the police.
00:31:02.640 --> 00:31:04.720
It's that cool as a cucumber thing.
00:31:04.960 --> 00:31:13.599
Combat vets, for example, when under fire can focus, need to, are trained how to, medics are trained how to focus.
00:31:13.759 --> 00:31:17.440
That's the logical side, but the emotional side fired too.
00:31:17.680 --> 00:31:34.240
So when we have something that we can't process those emotional side, the emotional part, then our memory system shifts, and it's kind of like the whole memory kind of gets compartmentalized emotionally, particularly.
00:31:34.720 --> 00:31:47.119
And so when I'm talking to somebody, if I if I'm thinking, I wonder if that was a trauma, I wonder, you know, if that had a big impact, in other words, I ask them if they can remember it.
00:31:47.359 --> 00:31:56.720
And when we remember trauma because it's stored differently in the mind, it emerges in memory as if it were happening.
00:31:56.880 --> 00:31:58.400
People have vivid recall.
00:31:58.799 --> 00:32:04.799
I do remember, you know, in third grade, I stood up in front of a class, I forgot my lesson, and that was really humiliating.
00:32:04.960 --> 00:32:06.960
I can see that in my mind when I think about it.
00:32:07.119 --> 00:32:09.039
I can feel another rush of shame.
00:32:09.119 --> 00:32:13.039
I can see how I put my head down and went back to my chair and the kids were laughing.
00:32:13.279 --> 00:32:25.119
It's that vivid recall that tells a psychologist or anybody, oh, okay, that was an event that got stored in the memory system that's not normal, like, what did I have for breakfast three weeks ago?
00:32:25.359 --> 00:32:26.319
Who knows?
00:32:26.480 --> 00:32:36.000
But I can remember vividly with the package, with the emotions, where I was, with the cognitive, what I was thinking, what I was supposed to be doing, all of that.
00:32:36.240 --> 00:32:37.279
So that's how we know.
00:32:37.440 --> 00:32:40.079
That's how we know something had a traumatic impact.
00:32:40.319 --> 00:32:45.599
So that when someone comes in, say somebody will just use uh a car accident.
00:32:45.759 --> 00:32:48.480
What we want to find out is what happened.
00:32:48.720 --> 00:32:52.640
And so we're looking, is there a narrative?
00:32:52.960 --> 00:32:54.720
Is there a storyline?
00:32:55.039 --> 00:33:07.200
Because we know that when trauma happens, the narrative, the linearness of what actually happened at three o'clock, four o'clock, five o'clock, that gets real broken up, you know.
00:33:07.279 --> 00:33:15.920
And so when someone's coming in and like, oh, I just remember this, and then jump to another thought, and then, oh, and then I remember like three days later when I the insurance people called.
00:33:16.000 --> 00:33:29.839
And one of the jobs of therapy is to help reorganize the brain so that it can be put back in a linear narrative so that the brain can seamlessly process the emotional and the logical parts.
00:33:29.920 --> 00:33:33.359
So that's when we move the eyes from one side to the other side.
00:33:33.839 --> 00:33:38.480
And it's literally the movement of the eyes right to left.
00:33:38.880 --> 00:33:43.200
And you can do it from tapping or light, seeing lights move back and forth.
00:33:43.440 --> 00:33:43.920
Yes.
00:33:44.160 --> 00:33:50.319
It's activating, it activates the right side of the brain and the left side.
00:33:50.400 --> 00:33:56.400
So you move your eyes one way, it activates the brain, and then the other side activates the other.
00:33:56.480 --> 00:34:00.720
So the brain is activating emotional, logical, emotional, logical.
00:34:00.960 --> 00:34:15.360
So in healing, what we're doing there is looking at it and allowing the emotional material to now hook up with the logical material, meaning it's over.
00:34:15.519 --> 00:34:24.400
People can be in a fear state, like when you think of flashback, you know, that fear comes up, there's a flashback, and the person is caught in the fear state.
00:34:24.559 --> 00:34:35.920
If I'm working with a flashback in therapy, I'm asking about the flashback and then asking what's the memory, what's the picture image in your brain?
00:34:36.079 --> 00:34:37.599
You know, what was the worst part of that?
00:34:37.679 --> 00:34:39.119
That the flashback?
00:34:39.360 --> 00:34:40.559
What are the words?
00:34:40.800 --> 00:34:43.039
Because that's part of our cognitive inner being.
00:34:43.199 --> 00:34:43.920
What are the words?
00:34:44.000 --> 00:34:49.199
So it could be I'm out of control, I'm gonna die, I can't get out of here, I'm helpless.
00:34:49.280 --> 00:34:52.800
You know, we're looking for that the state that fed into the fear.
00:34:53.039 --> 00:34:54.960
And then what's the emotion?
00:34:55.119 --> 00:34:56.880
We're emotionally wired as well.
00:34:57.199 --> 00:35:03.679
Fear, terror, and where do you feel it right now in your body as you're remembering where do you feel it right now?
00:35:03.920 --> 00:35:06.079
I feel it shooting across my chest.
00:35:06.239 --> 00:35:10.960
Okay, hang on to all of that, please, and just watch my fingers.
00:35:11.280 --> 00:35:16.480
And so then I start moving my fingers systematically right at their eye level from right to left.
00:35:16.639 --> 00:35:19.519
And so now they're re-recording the memory.
00:35:19.599 --> 00:35:21.360
That's the reprocessing word.
00:35:21.679 --> 00:35:27.760
They're re-recording the memory, and the emotional side is able to talk to the logical side.
00:35:28.000 --> 00:35:29.519
So I'm really afraid.
00:35:29.679 --> 00:35:32.639
Okay, but I'm but the logical side, but you're here with the therapist.
00:35:32.800 --> 00:35:37.440
Okay, I mean, I'm remembering, you know, I just feel in my body how helpless I was.
00:35:37.679 --> 00:35:41.280
You know, the logical part of the mind is saying, okay, you go with that, you keep going.
00:35:41.360 --> 00:35:49.440
And then little by little, and if I need to help, I will with words, you know, to ground that little by little, their own brain is resourcing.
00:35:49.679 --> 00:36:02.320
Their own brain is going over to literal neural networks, neural networks, you know, conglomerates of neurons that have the information that it's over, that have the information that it's safe, that they're alive.
00:36:02.480 --> 00:36:04.960
And so you're allowing those two things to process.
00:36:05.039 --> 00:36:11.440
And so then however long it takes, whatever a session, single session wonders are very few and far between.
00:36:11.599 --> 00:36:12.159
Yes, right.
00:36:12.400 --> 00:36:13.119
Absolutely.
00:36:13.280 --> 00:36:29.519
I mean, things take lots of time, but that particular flashback, we can make a big impact so that that doesn't happen again because we've deconstructed the memory, the trigger, and brought the person back into real time.
00:36:29.679 --> 00:36:34.320
So now, next session I ask that person, have you had any more flashbacks?
00:36:34.639 --> 00:36:34.960
No.
00:36:35.679 --> 00:36:39.119
What does it feel like when you think about that flashback now?
00:36:39.360 --> 00:36:41.039
You know, just go back and think about it now.
00:36:41.199 --> 00:36:42.639
What does it feel like?
00:36:42.960 --> 00:36:44.880
Well, I'm not scared anymore.
00:36:45.039 --> 00:36:46.639
And it feels like a memory.
00:36:46.880 --> 00:36:48.719
That's what I'm looking for, a version of that.
00:36:49.039 --> 00:36:49.360
Yes.
00:36:49.519 --> 00:36:54.480
I've done EMDR a few different times with a wonderful practitioner down in Sealance Grove.
00:36:54.719 --> 00:36:56.239
I don't know if you know Cheryl Stumpf.
00:36:56.400 --> 00:36:58.800
She's uh a therapist, so she's terrific.
00:36:59.119 --> 00:37:00.159
I'm really glad to hear that.
00:37:00.480 --> 00:37:08.000
And you're right, you do take this memory, and you then are able to get to it and see it without the emotion.
00:37:08.320 --> 00:37:14.880
I found in a day after a a good session, I was exhausted.
00:37:15.119 --> 00:37:15.599
Absolutely.
00:37:15.840 --> 00:37:33.679
I'd been sitting in a chair, looking right, left, looking right, left, talking, remembering, and things sort of do come to you and they link to others, and we always kind of found the story that you're right, the story that was there linking a memory to a memory.
00:37:34.000 --> 00:37:34.320
Right.
00:37:34.480 --> 00:37:42.000
But it's just so shocking how m how exhausting it was, not in the moment, but the next day.
00:37:42.239 --> 00:37:45.519
And Sherald I'll say, No, you what you need to do is go take a nap right now.
00:37:45.599 --> 00:37:46.400
You need to just rest.
00:37:46.800 --> 00:37:47.039
Yeah.
00:37:47.199 --> 00:37:55.760
And and also not be surprised if it takes a day or so to sort of go take your nap and kind of come back up to feeling like yourself.
00:37:56.480 --> 00:37:58.079
Well, I think that's that's wonderful.
00:37:58.400 --> 00:38:02.960
I enjoy being on the on the therapist end very much.
00:38:03.199 --> 00:38:22.480
Not enjoy other people's uh horrible things that have happened though, of course not, but being able to join in that process of of in a way deconstructing, of deconstructing, you know, well, what happened in the emotional system, what happened here, what happened there, how did that then play out?
00:38:22.800 --> 00:38:27.920
One thing that is just front and center for me is it always makes sense.
00:38:28.159 --> 00:38:39.599
You know, if we if we look at the history, if we look at what has happened, you know, the you know, people's reactions and responses in relationship, it always makes sense.
00:38:39.679 --> 00:38:44.159
If someone comes in with low esteem and we're trying to low self-esteem, we're trying to look at that.
00:38:44.320 --> 00:38:52.800
They may be super bright, credentialed, you know, have friends, you know, but they have this low self-esteem, and it's kind of like, huh, you know, I don't understand it, but I'm so self-critical.
00:38:52.960 --> 00:38:56.880
We look back a little bit and we say, whose voice is it in your head?
00:38:57.039 --> 00:38:57.280
Yeah.
00:38:57.840 --> 00:38:59.440
What are the sentences you say in your head?
00:38:59.599 --> 00:39:00.800
Like, I'm really stupid.
00:39:01.119 --> 00:39:01.679
A big one.
00:39:01.920 --> 00:39:03.280
I'll never amount to anything.
00:39:03.519 --> 00:39:04.960
Where did you first hear that?
00:39:05.119 --> 00:39:09.840
You know, it always comes back to the teacher, the the parent, often the caretaker.
00:39:10.000 --> 00:39:22.960
As our brains were literally forming and adding neurons as we were progressing through the stages of mental social development, we may have heard those things thousands of times over 10, 15 years.
00:39:23.119 --> 00:39:33.599
And then the formative ones, the young ones that really are absorbed without intellectual overlay, meaning distance in a way, because we don't have the mental structures to hold them out.
00:39:33.760 --> 00:39:49.679
People will say, Oh, my dad used to always say, I'll never amount to, or my mom or somebody else, then that forms on the young brain that forms a particular impression, a particular narrative, a particular set of internal events.
00:39:49.840 --> 00:39:51.679
And then, you know, then there's the overlay.
00:39:51.760 --> 00:39:54.960
Then they come to kindergarten and maybe they couldn't read real well.
00:39:55.119 --> 00:39:56.880
Oh, well, I'll never amount to anything.
00:39:56.960 --> 00:39:57.519
I'm stupid.
00:39:57.599 --> 00:40:04.880
And then rather than the successes of, oh, I learned to read and I'm really good on the playground, that'll be re triggered and re triggered and re triggered.
00:40:04.960 --> 00:40:11.039
So we get to be an adult, even though we've gone through all these stages and accomplishments, it's like that's still in there.
00:40:11.360 --> 00:40:14.159
Well, what would you say to people as a therapist?
00:40:14.400 --> 00:40:28.000
Sort of DIY advice if people are struggling, fear, anxiety, anger, whatever, what takeaway can you give them here and now that we just give a little bit of relief or set them on a path?
00:40:28.480 --> 00:40:31.199
Um trust yourself.
00:40:31.599 --> 00:40:34.719
When I'm a client, I know myself better than anyone.
00:40:34.880 --> 00:40:38.719
But when you're a client, you know yourself better than anyone.
00:40:39.119 --> 00:40:59.360
If something is wrong, we're having thoughts that we don't like, or we're uh behaving in ways that we kind of don't understand, and we know that it's really not our core self, it's really not who we are, but we're getting into fights or we're having partner issues, and they just don't match up with who we know we are.
00:40:59.920 --> 00:41:02.639
Trust yourself and get help.
00:41:02.880 --> 00:41:18.000
Of course, I would say find a therapist, make sure or try to see that you have outlets because we can't always manage our emotional world, but movement.
00:41:18.159 --> 00:41:19.679
See if you can have different gears.
00:41:19.760 --> 00:41:29.280
I mean, we know that social connection is the highest predictor of mental health, connection and a strong social support network.
00:41:29.519 --> 00:41:30.000
Is it really?
00:41:30.239 --> 00:41:33.519
It really is, and that's been studied and studied again.
00:41:33.840 --> 00:41:38.960
Structure is so important because when we're upset, we're dysregulated.
00:41:39.119 --> 00:41:43.440
So, what are the things that we can bring that have positive regularity?
00:41:43.599 --> 00:41:45.519
That could be working out.
00:41:45.679 --> 00:41:52.159
That's a really great outlet for all kinds of stuff that introduces irregularity, self-confidence, all kinds of good things.
00:41:52.320 --> 00:41:53.840
Try to have a creative outlet.
00:41:54.000 --> 00:41:55.039
Those are general things.
00:41:55.199 --> 00:41:56.559
Find places where you're safe.
00:41:56.639 --> 00:42:02.880
That's big, where it feels safe to be who you are, and then seek help, you know.
00:42:03.519 --> 00:42:06.880
Well, I am not a trained therapist, but I do have a podcast.
00:42:07.119 --> 00:42:10.239
So here's my advice get to know your vagus nerve.
00:42:10.480 --> 00:42:18.079
Yes, actually find those times also the little breathing, the little you mentioned sleep.
00:42:18.320 --> 00:42:20.800
Sleep is foundational, but you can't sleep if you're wired.
00:42:21.039 --> 00:42:36.079
So there are other ways you can lower that vagus nerve or or the activity of the nerve, so you're in the lower states where you can rest and digest as opposed to being in a sympathetic state where you are constantly reacting, and cortisol is just driving your interaction.
00:42:36.239 --> 00:42:46.079
So I think think get to know that and find some sort of DIY breathing, meditation, like you said, moving to the yoga.
00:42:46.400 --> 00:42:58.000
Yeah, so you so the the calming, you know, when you need that, then you got of what what you're saying, the the yoga, the meditation, the the the tai chi, though those things.
00:42:58.079 --> 00:43:11.440
And then, you know, when you need the activation or but we all you know, we it's kind of like um getting your teeth cleaned or something, you know, maintenance of our nervous system, literally, because our nervous system and brain are connected.
00:43:11.599 --> 00:43:14.800
Yeah, they are the same thing essentially as extension.
00:43:14.960 --> 00:43:18.079
And so we want to do maintenance, upkeep of that.
00:43:18.239 --> 00:43:23.519
So we want to have activation, healthy activation that hopefully is bilateral.
00:43:23.599 --> 00:43:33.599
That could be, you know, because then we're then we're stimulating rhythmically the emotional side of the brain, the logical side, each of which needs stimulation and maintenance.
00:43:34.079 --> 00:43:35.599
I think of it like hygiene.
00:43:35.920 --> 00:43:37.280
Hygiene, that's the word I'm looking for.
00:43:38.719 --> 00:43:43.599
We stretch, we go to yoga, we have hygiene for our heart, so we walk and our brain, we read.
00:43:43.760 --> 00:43:45.360
And for this, too.
00:43:45.440 --> 00:43:50.320
There's a hygiene to our emotional states that involves the thing you've just mentioned.
00:43:50.559 --> 00:43:52.559
Yes, uh, that's the perfect word.
00:43:53.280 --> 00:43:54.480
Well, thank you so much.
00:43:54.639 --> 00:43:56.719
This has been a terrific conversation.
00:43:56.880 --> 00:43:59.679
I appreciate your time and your knowledge.
00:43:59.920 --> 00:44:01.599
So thank you so much.
00:44:01.920 --> 00:44:06.639
Oh, you're so welcome, and I I thank you very much for allowing me to come and speak.
00:44:06.960 --> 00:44:08.400
It's been very nice.
00:44:09.440 --> 00:44:13.840
Well, this has been Locals, the podcast, in which we talk to people who are local.
00:44:14.079 --> 00:44:20.000
Join us next week for another local, another conversation, and another episode of this very podcast.
00:44:20.719 --> 00:44:22.320
Have a nice week.
00:44:22.559 --> 00:44:24.800
The host voice you heard was Rand Whipple.
00:44:25.039 --> 00:44:28.559
The editor you did not was Angel Parada Vieira.
00:00:04.959 --> 00:00:09.439
Welcome to Locals, the podcast in which we talk to people who are local.
00:00:09.679 --> 00:00:19.839
Today's conversation is with Catherine McLaughlin, therapist, swimmer, Tai Chi student, and upon a time, nationally ranked powerlifter.
00:00:20.320 --> 00:00:22.559
Today we'll talk about the therapy part.
00:00:22.800 --> 00:00:25.440
Brains, bodies, EMDR, and more.
00:00:25.679 --> 00:00:28.559
Now this episode is just a bit longer than usual.
00:00:28.719 --> 00:00:29.519
Not a lot.
00:00:29.760 --> 00:00:35.520
I try to keep the episodes to 30 minutes or so because it often feels right for the arc of a conversation.
00:00:35.759 --> 00:00:42.960
But also because I assume, if you're like me, you know there are a lot of detective shows on Brid Box that are not going to watch themselves.
00:00:43.119 --> 00:00:45.600
Usually, I feel I should let you get to it.
00:00:45.840 --> 00:00:54.399
But I think Catherine's interview this week hits a sweet spot of having a very interesting backstory, as well as important knowledge well articulated.
00:00:54.560 --> 00:00:57.280
So she gets a full 45 minutes on this one.
00:00:57.679 --> 00:01:02.079
Sorry, Lori, Jim, Steve, Debbie, Connor, Karen, Cardi, Carrie, Abby et al.
00:01:02.640 --> 00:01:04.239
Definitely for you next time.
00:01:05.519 --> 00:01:09.920
As a therapist, Catherine is a guide on the journey to self.
00:01:10.879 --> 00:01:15.760
Therapy usually begins with need, but I think it often continues through appetite.
00:01:16.079 --> 00:01:18.799
Again, for self-knowledge.
00:01:19.519 --> 00:01:25.439
To quote our walking and talking friend Socrates, the unexamined life is not worth living.
00:01:26.319 --> 00:01:31.519
I think Socrates was deep and possibly did not have a lot else going on.
00:01:32.159 --> 00:01:34.719
There are many other things worth living for.
00:01:35.040 --> 00:01:37.840
Ibid, see Britbox comment.
00:01:38.159 --> 00:01:40.319
Anyway, Catherine is waiting.
00:01:40.480 --> 00:01:42.560
Let us begin our session.
00:01:45.680 --> 00:01:47.599
So Catherine, it's nice to talk to you.
00:01:47.920 --> 00:01:49.040
Nice to be here, thank you.
00:01:49.280 --> 00:01:53.920
You and I just came from Jim Burt's Tai Chi class at Bloom Fitness.
00:01:54.319 --> 00:01:56.560
I had Jim on two weeks ago.
00:01:56.879 --> 00:01:59.920
So we're both relaxed and that's nice.
00:02:00.159 --> 00:02:01.920
So uh you are a therapist.
00:02:02.239 --> 00:02:03.359
Psychologist, I'm a therapist.
00:02:03.760 --> 00:02:04.319
Psychologist.
00:02:04.400 --> 00:02:04.560
Yeah.
00:02:04.879 --> 00:02:05.519
Is that the term?
00:02:05.760 --> 00:02:07.599
Should I call you a psychologist or a therapist?
00:02:08.080 --> 00:02:10.400
Yeah, psychologist, that's a licensed profession.
00:02:10.479 --> 00:02:16.879
So I have to sit for my boards and do a certain amount of continuing ed credits every two years and that kind of thing.
00:02:17.280 --> 00:02:20.479
As I said, our daughter just became a licensed therapist.
00:02:20.639 --> 00:02:24.560
She's past her board, she's able to work without supervision now.
00:02:24.719 --> 00:02:26.719
So it's a brave new world for her.
00:02:26.879 --> 00:02:29.439
Now, first of all, I remember your mother.
00:02:29.680 --> 00:02:30.639
Oh Mary Ann.
00:02:30.800 --> 00:02:33.360
And I think of her walking.
00:02:33.680 --> 00:02:33.919
Yeah.
00:02:34.479 --> 00:02:35.280
She's a walker.
00:02:35.520 --> 00:02:36.000
Yes.
00:02:36.159 --> 00:02:37.280
She loved to walk.
00:02:37.520 --> 00:02:38.560
In the morning, she would get up.
00:02:38.719 --> 00:02:46.000
And at that time, for for a number of years, there was early morning swimming and water aerobics down at the middle school.
00:02:46.159 --> 00:02:48.000
And so she would get up and walk down.
00:02:48.080 --> 00:02:49.039
It was about two miles.
00:02:49.199 --> 00:02:51.680
We lived up on a College Hill at the very top.
00:02:51.919 --> 00:02:56.080
She would walk down, do her water aerobics, walk back home.
00:02:56.400 --> 00:03:04.960
And very often, as I was out and about seeing people that we both knew, they would say, I saw your mom walking down by the library.
00:03:05.120 --> 00:03:07.199
Oh, I saw your mom in the Salvation Army.
00:03:07.360 --> 00:03:09.280
Oh, I saw your mom walking up the hill.
00:03:09.439 --> 00:03:15.520
So she got out and about in Bloomsburg and really was a very beautiful, lovely person.
00:03:15.919 --> 00:03:16.319
She was.
00:03:16.400 --> 00:03:17.360
I remember her husband.
00:03:17.759 --> 00:03:19.919
And actually she volunteered here at the library for quite a while.
00:03:20.639 --> 00:03:21.199
For quite a while.
00:03:21.360 --> 00:03:23.360
In fact, she knew Jim's wife.
00:03:23.759 --> 00:03:24.719
Oh, Carol Bennish.
00:03:24.960 --> 00:03:25.599
Yes, Carol.
00:03:26.879 --> 00:03:27.120
Yeah.
00:03:27.439 --> 00:03:28.159
Well, that's great.
00:03:28.240 --> 00:03:28.400
Yeah.
00:03:28.560 --> 00:03:31.840
Well, talk about your journey into therapy.
00:03:32.000 --> 00:03:33.360
Let's start early though.
00:03:33.599 --> 00:03:35.599
You are a Bloomsburg local.
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You grew up here.
00:03:36.879 --> 00:03:40.479
Tell me about your childhood into therapy.
00:03:41.120 --> 00:03:43.680
Well, coming into Bloomsburg, we moved here.
00:03:43.840 --> 00:03:50.960
We lived in State College where my dad went back to school to get a doctorate in what was called special ed at the time.
00:03:51.039 --> 00:04:00.560
And then he came to the university and worked at the university as a special ed professor when it was Bloomsburg State College.
00:04:00.719 --> 00:04:02.639
And so that was seventh grade.
00:04:02.800 --> 00:04:05.840
So I went to junior high and senior high.
00:04:06.159 --> 00:04:20.160
I, you know, because of uh I think because of historical and internal turmoil for for me, I wasn't really happy in school and I had a hard time.
00:04:20.560 --> 00:04:24.319
Um kind of, I guess just with general adjustment.
00:04:24.560 --> 00:04:25.680
So I went to St.
00:04:25.920 --> 00:04:26.560
Cyril's.
00:04:26.639 --> 00:04:27.759
They they sent me to St.
00:04:27.920 --> 00:04:31.759
Cyril's for two years and I would in Danville.
00:04:31.920 --> 00:04:32.160
Yes.
00:04:32.319 --> 00:04:34.720
And I really, I feel like I thrived there.
00:04:34.879 --> 00:04:40.399
I was not Catholic, and so I did not attend the Catholic-based services and that type of thing.
00:04:40.639 --> 00:04:46.879
But um, I found the focus, the intense focus on academics was drew me in and I really enjoyed it.
00:04:47.040 --> 00:04:52.079
And then I went to uh my senior year, I went to Mexico as an exchange student.
00:04:52.240 --> 00:04:59.680
I was sponsored by the Bloomsburg Rotary that uh had Dick Benefield, was was uh founding member of that.
00:04:59.920 --> 00:05:07.920
Yes, and I had worked, I had I I had worked during uh starting at age 16, I had worked at the smorgasboard that you know he was sort of famous for.
00:05:08.240 --> 00:05:14.560
So I I knew him and he liked me enough to promote me and help help me become a change student.
00:05:14.800 --> 00:05:24.399
So I went to Mexico my senior year of high school and attended my senior year of high school there in Mexico in a city uh named Querétaro.
00:05:24.639 --> 00:05:28.800
And that's a colonial city, sort of in the heart of Mexico.
00:05:28.959 --> 00:05:39.920
If you just kind of took a pin and put it in what you thought was the middle of the landmass of Mexico, that that's where it would be, an inland colonial city, about 200,000, I think.
00:05:40.480 --> 00:05:42.240
Formed in Morelia, Mexico.
00:05:42.399 --> 00:05:43.439
It's a wonderful place.
00:05:43.519 --> 00:05:44.480
I loved Mexico.
00:05:45.040 --> 00:05:46.720
I loved Mexico.
00:05:46.959 --> 00:05:51.759
I had a lot of there's a thread running throughout my life.
00:05:51.920 --> 00:05:56.879
I had turmoil, you know, and so I wasn't uh a hundred percent stable during my time there.
00:05:56.959 --> 00:06:00.079
So it wasn't sort of the idealized version.
00:06:00.639 --> 00:06:12.079
However, people were so kind to me, so giving, so friendly, that it was it was really a wonderful interaction with the culture, with the people there.
00:06:12.240 --> 00:06:19.360
Um it was a small enough town slash city that you could know most people and get to know people.
00:06:19.439 --> 00:06:28.000
And of course there was wonderful fiestas and weddings, and just the town itself was very beautiful with uh, you know, central square where there was music sometimes.
00:06:28.240 --> 00:06:28.800
Oh yes.
00:06:28.959 --> 00:06:31.120
You know, so so there there was a lot.
00:06:31.199 --> 00:06:34.959
There was a lot there that year, and and of course I learned Spanish, which was nice.
00:06:35.199 --> 00:06:35.439
Yes.
00:06:35.680 --> 00:06:40.399
And then you came back after that to go to college, or did you reside in Bloomsburg for a time?
00:06:40.720 --> 00:06:43.199
I came back to go to college.
00:06:43.279 --> 00:06:48.800
Um and at that time I was interested in uh Barbara Walters actually was one of my idols.
00:06:48.879 --> 00:06:57.040
You know, she was so good at interviewing people, you know, she could get from people what other people didn't seem to be able to get.
00:06:57.120 --> 00:06:58.319
And I really admired her.
00:06:58.399 --> 00:07:05.920
You know, she's a woman in the field, she was strong, she asked direct questions, and so I I felt like I wanted to be her.
00:07:06.079 --> 00:07:10.720
And so I went to a small communications college, it's Emerson College, and I went there for a year.
00:07:11.279 --> 00:07:11.920
In Boston, yeah.
00:07:12.800 --> 00:07:13.839
In Boston, Emerson College.
00:07:14.079 --> 00:07:14.480
Wow, yeah.
00:07:14.560 --> 00:07:18.319
Emerson has a wonderful film school as well.
00:07:18.480 --> 00:07:22.480
Our son applied to went elsewhere, but went up and saw Emerson.
00:07:22.879 --> 00:07:34.000
Yeah, yeah, it was just it was just small, and you know, I had I got uh I was my friend that I met there, and uh and I put a little radio show together in Spanish.
00:07:34.160 --> 00:07:37.920
It just lasts maybe a year, less than a year, but still it was wonderful.
00:07:38.079 --> 00:07:43.360
And then the end of my freshman year, I had a psychological breakdown.
00:07:43.600 --> 00:07:54.319
Now, later in life, a number of years later, maybe 20, 25 years later, I was able to get a firm diagnosis of of bipolar disorder.
00:07:54.480 --> 00:07:56.240
But we didn't know anything about that.
00:07:56.399 --> 00:08:03.519
I had a psychotic episode, and I ended up, I ended up calling my my parents.
00:08:03.759 --> 00:08:14.000
My mom, I said, you know, I was just frightened and I was out of touch with almost everything, and I just said, I think I'm dying, I think somebody's trying to kill me.
00:08:14.079 --> 00:08:14.720
I'm just, you know.
00:08:14.879 --> 00:08:16.480
And so my mother flew right up.
00:08:16.639 --> 00:08:26.000
She got on a plane and flew up, and I was admitted to a small private hospital where where my diagnosis was schizophrenia.
00:08:26.480 --> 00:08:28.319
And so that was pretty intense.
00:08:28.480 --> 00:08:28.800
Yes.
00:08:29.040 --> 00:08:29.680
Pretty intense.
00:08:29.839 --> 00:08:33.039
Bipolar wasn't really known very well at the time.
00:08:33.200 --> 00:08:36.480
This was when I was 20, so that was 50 years ago.
00:08:36.720 --> 00:08:41.840
So 50, roll back 50 years in the mental health field, and it just really wasn't understood.
00:08:42.000 --> 00:08:44.320
I don't even think it was really on the radar.
00:08:44.559 --> 00:08:54.320
So that at that time, if you if a person were discovered to be hearing voices, boom, it was pretty much of a that's schizophrenia.
00:08:54.480 --> 00:08:55.759
If they're outside the head.
00:08:56.000 --> 00:08:58.399
If they're inside the head, we don't know yet.
00:08:58.559 --> 00:09:06.080
But if they're outside the head, they're responding to voices that feel like they're coming from outside the head, which I was, it was called schizophrenia.
00:09:06.799 --> 00:09:10.639
So that was scary, uh, poignantly to me to this day.
00:09:10.799 --> 00:09:15.759
I did not recognize my mother for two weeks when she came every day to be with me.
00:09:15.840 --> 00:09:20.240
Um and but, you know, we we got through it.
00:09:20.559 --> 00:09:32.240
I, you know, was medicated and then came home here to Bloomsburg and was enrolled in uh the program, the day program at Geisinger.
00:09:32.559 --> 00:09:39.519
And so I spent my whole summer there attending, attending the day program, learning and rehabbing, essentially.
00:09:39.840 --> 00:09:51.120
Because it was serious, you know, and when so that people understand to an extent, you know, that I understand, which is not fully, that psychotic episode really kind of wipes you out.
00:09:51.360 --> 00:09:56.159
I really lost the ability to read fluently, lost the ability to concentrate.
00:09:56.320 --> 00:09:59.519
You know, really is kind of like a big fat brain crash.
00:09:59.759 --> 00:10:18.879
And so there's the there's the rehabilitation from that, learning to organize, learning to make a plan of what I'm gonna do with the day, learning to read again, you know, starting a page and then, you know, something brief, and then, you know, progressing to a short story and that type of thing.
00:10:19.039 --> 00:10:28.960
So, you know, when people talk about, you know, psychotic episodes, it's really quite a quite a mentally uh uh difficult space to be in.
00:10:29.279 --> 00:10:31.039
Now, was this late 70s?
00:10:31.600 --> 00:10:32.080
Well, let's see.
00:10:33.279 --> 00:10:37.200
I was born in 1956, so I was 20, so it was 1976.
00:10:37.600 --> 00:10:38.000
All right.
00:10:38.159 --> 00:10:44.320
Well, you and I were traveling a very similar journey at that time because my mother, as I mentioned, was bipolar.
00:10:44.480 --> 00:10:44.799
Yeah.
00:10:45.200 --> 00:10:57.840
And she was first, she had let me two to three hospital stays in her adult life after my father passed away, and that was been the first time where she was diagnosed.
00:10:58.000 --> 00:11:00.480
And they she was diagnosed as schizophrenic too.
00:11:00.720 --> 00:11:01.440
Isn't that interesting?
00:11:01.919 --> 00:11:03.039
She was having the same thing.
00:11:03.120 --> 00:11:10.720
She was having, of course, these grandiose beliefs, but also was being told what to do by people.
00:11:11.360 --> 00:11:25.120
And we had this amazing journey where we were taking her from Oklahoma up to Minnesota, and my sister m met her to fly her, and then she was we lost her in O'Hare Airport.
00:11:25.440 --> 00:11:26.080
O'Gare.
00:11:26.480 --> 00:11:28.960
Yes, in a full-blown episode.
00:11:29.200 --> 00:11:30.240
So she was found.
00:11:30.399 --> 00:11:38.399
So but uh and she was a very smart woman, and yeah, it did take a toll on her.
00:11:38.559 --> 00:11:42.799
And then later it was she was diagnosed as bipolar.
00:11:43.120 --> 00:11:54.960
Yeah, as the underst standing, you know, and the ability to do a differential diagnosis than than um people who had formerly been sort of put in that schizophrenia pot.
00:11:55.279 --> 00:11:55.440
Yes.
00:11:55.679 --> 00:12:02.320
Um I do remember when I came here later in life, you know, seeing a psychiatrist here, Dr.
00:12:02.399 --> 00:12:07.840
Botaraco, who's now has retired, but you know, saying, I said, Oh well, I have schizophrenia.
00:12:07.919 --> 00:12:09.200
And she it's so interesting.
00:12:09.279 --> 00:12:16.879
She lowered a glass if she had these like half glasses, and she lowered and she looked over them at me and she said, You are not schizophrenic.
00:12:17.039 --> 00:12:22.080
And I said, Okay, well, I've had three psychotic episodes.
00:12:22.240 --> 00:12:25.600
And she said, Okay, you've had three psychotic episodes.
00:12:26.480 --> 00:12:27.759
We'll go from there.
00:12:28.080 --> 00:12:39.759
And then later, years later, when I when I realized and I put some information myself together from education sources that I was bipolar, I, you know, I w saw her again.
00:12:39.840 --> 00:12:48.639
I reinstituted therapy, I saw her again, and she had actually written rule out, which means maybe bipolar.
00:12:48.879 --> 00:12:51.279
So she had she had had that in her notes.
00:12:51.360 --> 00:12:53.679
So that was that matched, so which was nice.
00:12:54.000 --> 00:13:06.639
How fortunate it was that you found a doctor who saw and questioned and got you that next step to a diagnosis that was a good solid functional diagnosis for you.
00:13:07.039 --> 00:13:12.559
Yeah, a good diagnosis can really be freeing, it can be orienting.
00:13:12.720 --> 00:13:14.960
Yes, this is what I'm experiencing.
00:13:15.120 --> 00:13:20.399
Now I have an orientation, a way to make my way through it.
00:13:20.559 --> 00:13:26.879
Because these are the things that happen, so I can expect them, I can orient to them, I can work with that.
00:13:27.279 --> 00:13:39.440
Well, that is also fortunate, and I think you and I are in of a generation that's lucky enough to accept that as a mental condition or illness.
00:13:39.600 --> 00:13:41.440
And my mother's generation wasn't.
00:13:41.600 --> 00:13:43.679
So she didn't come to where you come.
00:13:44.000 --> 00:13:50.559
I think she struggled always and just wouldn't accept it, didn't believe it, rationalized it other ways.
00:13:50.639 --> 00:14:00.559
But I don't think she had what she had was that moment of freedom and okay, well, this is me, and this answers a lot about me and my life.
00:14:00.879 --> 00:14:06.399
And so to go forth now, I know I need to find the tools.
00:14:06.639 --> 00:14:07.679
And you were fortunate.
00:14:08.080 --> 00:14:08.639
She did not.
00:14:08.720 --> 00:14:11.039
It was partly her family, but also a generational thing.
00:14:11.120 --> 00:14:12.080
It was for sure.
00:14:12.159 --> 00:14:12.320
Yeah.
00:14:13.120 --> 00:14:17.120
The Geisinger clinic wouldn't she would have called that a an insane asylum.
00:14:17.519 --> 00:14:23.200
So there's all that stigma and fear and that with a different generation.
00:14:23.279 --> 00:14:25.120
But we're more fortunate.
00:14:26.240 --> 00:14:29.840
I think of therapy like I think of my primary care physician.
00:14:30.000 --> 00:14:43.360
That I go, well, if I am in dis-ease, it's not working itself out quickly enough on my own, then I go to somebody who helps me figure it out, move on, and it's all good.
00:14:43.519 --> 00:14:45.120
We live in a fortunate time.
00:14:45.679 --> 00:14:46.080
I think.
00:14:46.399 --> 00:15:00.080
Yeah, and I think really, you know, I'm 70, as I said, that it's our generation that's sort of the the vanguard or the the first generation to really have that, you know, acceptance and structure.
00:15:00.240 --> 00:15:03.279
As you said, you know, our parents really didn't quite so much.
00:15:03.679 --> 00:15:18.480
I was lucky my dad was in a field where where he worked with, you know, different individuals and was very s uh supportive and and my mother was, you know, very open and was able to be very very supportive.
00:15:18.720 --> 00:15:22.799
So again, I I was lucky within my family to to have that.
00:15:23.279 --> 00:15:27.039
Now, did that lead you to being and Barbara Walters?
00:15:27.200 --> 00:15:27.440
Yeah.
00:15:28.000 --> 00:15:31.039
Lead you to wanting to be a therapist and a psychologist?
00:15:31.360 --> 00:15:37.600
Yeah, I mean it was it was absolutely clear I wasn't going back to to Beacon Street, to Emerson College.
00:15:37.759 --> 00:15:39.200
Um that was out of the picture.
00:15:39.440 --> 00:15:52.159
Part of what uh s sent me around the bend there, I think, was the transition from Bloomsburg to Mexico, back to Bloomsburg, and then right back to inner city, all the stimulation.
00:15:52.240 --> 00:15:58.080
And and at the time, you know, I look very Irish, blue eyes, fair skin, that type of thing.
00:15:58.320 --> 00:16:03.919
And within Boston, there was a racial difficulty, uh, blacks versus Irish.
00:16:04.080 --> 00:16:05.440
There was a lot of tension.
00:16:05.919 --> 00:16:06.879
Yes, there was.
00:16:06.960 --> 00:16:13.360
Uh, and and I I think uh you would find that if you looked, uh, if you looked for it, you would you would find that on record.
00:16:13.519 --> 00:16:20.240
And so I unfortunately was somewhat targeted within my class at Emerson.
00:16:20.639 --> 00:16:23.039
And so yeah, that was crummy.
00:16:23.279 --> 00:16:24.639
Wow, I never heard of that.
00:16:24.960 --> 00:16:28.320
Yeah, the the blacks and the Irish in Boston, yeah.
00:16:28.480 --> 00:16:35.200
And I think it had to do with immigration status back when, of who came next and then who came next, and that type of thing.
00:16:35.360 --> 00:16:37.279
But anyway, that that was what it was.
00:16:37.440 --> 00:16:44.000
And so there were just different uh different things that it's kind of like, no, I I in no way able to handle that.
00:16:44.240 --> 00:17:07.200
One of the very good things that I remember a family meeting at Geisinger, the doctor, the psychiatrist, I was mom and dad and and me, and he said, you know, your best chances, because at that point it was I could stay sick and not get better, I could get better and have intermittent mental health issues, or I could just get better and stay better.
00:17:07.279 --> 00:17:08.880
So it was, you know, thirds.
00:17:09.039 --> 00:17:19.440
So he said, you know, your best chances for being healthy is structure, exercise, get back in school and start using your mind, and get on a sleep program.
00:17:19.599 --> 00:17:24.160
And so that was super basic, simple, and really important information.
00:17:24.240 --> 00:17:25.119
And that's what we did.
00:17:25.279 --> 00:17:29.279
You know, I went back to school at at the end of um my day program.
00:17:29.359 --> 00:17:35.279
I went I went back to school in Bloomsburg, enrolled there, and heck, study psychology, you know.
00:17:35.519 --> 00:17:35.839
Yeah.
00:17:36.000 --> 00:17:43.920
Uh so I'm, you know, I'm sure I picked that as yeah because uh I did want to find out or had some interest or thought I could handle it.
00:17:44.000 --> 00:17:47.359
I it seemed like that was where I landed.
00:17:47.680 --> 00:17:52.480
But you also bring something to your sessions that others may not.
00:17:52.640 --> 00:17:54.960
You can share an experience with your clients.
00:17:55.519 --> 00:17:55.839
Yeah.
00:17:56.079 --> 00:17:58.319
I don't say, hey, I'm bipolar.
00:17:58.559 --> 00:18:00.000
I don't bring that up.
00:18:00.079 --> 00:18:02.640
I don't say, hey, I've been hospitalized myself.
00:18:02.880 --> 00:18:07.599
And so that the sharing is very internal inside of me.
00:18:07.759 --> 00:18:26.240
So there is a sharing, and I believe I've gotten enough feedback uh to know that it's palpable, even if it may be unspoken, that it's kind of like there's a resonance or a an approach that says to a certain extent, I get it, that's authentic.
00:18:26.400 --> 00:18:32.640
And and since it is authentic, it is received in that way almost always.
00:18:33.039 --> 00:18:39.039
Oh, I'm sure you know and so and so yeah, I mean, it has given me lots of background.
00:18:39.119 --> 00:18:50.000
I've been through the system a number of times, so you know, I've had the education, the the training and coping skills myself, rather than kind of just reading about what are good coping skills.
00:18:50.160 --> 00:18:53.359
I've lived that and made my way with lots of help.
00:18:53.519 --> 00:19:00.480
I don't disown it because it's it's very important to and has a great value as well.
00:19:00.720 --> 00:19:03.440
Nothing you would choose, but it has its value.
00:19:03.759 --> 00:19:04.079
Absolutely.
00:19:04.400 --> 00:19:08.000
So what type of therapies do you practice?
00:19:08.400 --> 00:19:10.799
Well, when I went back to school, I went back to Penn State.
00:19:10.880 --> 00:19:24.480
I got a psych degree in Bloom, and then at that time I thought to myself, you know, yes, I want to go back to school, I need to to get into the profession in a bigger way, credentialed way, but I wanted to have some experiences as well.
00:19:24.799 --> 00:19:30.880
So I worked at a um day program options down in Bloomsburg.
00:19:31.039 --> 00:19:40.559
I got my master's at Penn State, and then I kind of I did some some jobs, worked for orientation at Penn State, incoming freshmen, that kind of thing.
00:19:40.720 --> 00:19:46.160
And then got my master's and applied after a number of years.
00:19:46.319 --> 00:19:54.559
I applied to the University of Oregon at uh Eugene, got into their doctoral program, and you know, studied there.
00:19:54.720 --> 00:20:03.440
What I studied there, which was kind of what most people were studying who were in psychology at a grad level, was CBT, cognitive behavior.
00:20:03.519 --> 00:20:14.720
And so the precursors to sort of a a consolidated CBT were uh, and many people may remember this like rational emotive reality therapy.
00:20:14.960 --> 00:20:25.920
And then Oregon was kind of cutting edge of, you know, that had very liberal, very liberal place, very um arts and culture oriented, a lot of diversity there.
00:20:26.240 --> 00:20:30.000
There were a number of faculty with interest in transpersonal psychology.
00:20:30.240 --> 00:20:33.200
So those are the things that I studied and learned there.
00:20:33.359 --> 00:20:47.920
They had a good program, they had recording studios, and so as we came into our second year, we were practicing being therapists with community members who would come in and apply to be clients, and then that was videotaped.
00:20:48.000 --> 00:20:50.319
And after it was videotaped, we had nine of us.
00:20:50.480 --> 00:21:03.680
Each of the nine people could view each other's work, and then our professors would view our work, and then we would get together in small groups and talk about the work and you know how that went and how we were applying and how it could be better and all that.
00:21:03.759 --> 00:21:08.240
So it was really solid um uh training method, I think.
00:21:08.559 --> 00:21:10.960
And the CBT is talk-based.
00:21:11.279 --> 00:21:12.160
It's talk-based, yes.
00:21:12.559 --> 00:21:14.799
And that's a difference in somatic work, yes.
00:21:14.880 --> 00:21:17.519
That would be where you approach it from the body.
00:21:18.000 --> 00:21:19.759
Yes, yes, that's right.
00:21:19.920 --> 00:21:29.759
Cognitive behavioral, and I think uh things are moving now in the direction of more somatically based, experiential.
00:21:29.839 --> 00:21:46.799
Um the cognitive at that time was coming into its own, it had a large research base, and so it could be, you know, endorsed by universities, by insurance companies, you know, and so they had a lot of research to base it on.
00:21:47.039 --> 00:21:58.240
So, yes, is talk therapy, and if you just break it down, you know, it's kind of like our thoughts, the our cognitions, the thoughts affect behavior, behavior affects thoughts.
00:21:58.400 --> 00:21:59.519
So, how do we?
00:22:00.319 --> 00:22:07.759
Bring these together and live mentally rewarding, stable lives.
00:22:08.319 --> 00:22:10.160
What's impacting our cognitions?
00:22:10.240 --> 00:22:11.359
What's impacting our thoughts?
00:22:11.440 --> 00:22:13.039
What are the historical things?
00:22:13.279 --> 00:22:19.119
What can impact them if we switch, if we change and bring new information in, bring new behaviors in?
00:22:19.279 --> 00:22:21.359
How can that impact our thoughts?
00:22:21.440 --> 00:22:25.920
Uh, which of course then affect our feelings, and how can we move forward?
00:22:26.079 --> 00:22:28.240
And I'd like to segue to EMDR.
00:22:29.039 --> 00:22:29.440
In just a minute.
00:22:29.519 --> 00:22:40.000
I want to I do want to get there, but uh so then somatically, if you're approaching an issue or a dis ease somatically, what would that look like?
00:22:40.480 --> 00:22:40.799
Okay.
00:22:41.200 --> 00:22:47.680
So you might come in and you might say, I'm feeling depressed.
00:22:48.079 --> 00:22:50.960
So I say, Well, you know, my mother died.
00:22:51.200 --> 00:22:54.799
And so I would say, Well, you know, tell me a little bit more about that.
00:22:54.880 --> 00:22:55.680
Can you tell me?
00:22:55.839 --> 00:23:00.079
And they might say, you know, at night I'm having memories or I'm having bad dreams.
00:23:00.319 --> 00:23:10.799
And at some point I would say, could you just take a moment and you know, maybe even shut your eyes if you would, and just go inside and tell me what you're feeling in your body when you say my mother died.
00:23:10.960 --> 00:23:26.480
So we're trying to tap into the connection, the nervous, the somatic, meaning body, the perceived sensations that go with the mental experience of I'm depressed.
00:23:26.559 --> 00:23:35.119
We're trying to get a much more full and broad picture as it relates to the entire being, not just headspace.
00:23:35.759 --> 00:23:43.759
And so somebody comes in and they're angry, and I'm somatic-based therapist, I would look for ways to move that energy.
00:23:43.920 --> 00:23:46.160
Often the energy might be bottled up.
00:23:46.240 --> 00:23:48.000
Okay, so where can we identify it?
00:23:48.079 --> 00:23:49.680
And there's actual body parts.
00:23:49.759 --> 00:23:52.880
So somebody says, you know, I feel it, often depression or sorrow.
00:23:53.200 --> 00:23:54.559
I feel it in my gut.
00:23:54.720 --> 00:24:00.720
And then I just say to myself, Oh, interesting, you know, shame is held in the gut, distress is held in the gut.
00:24:00.799 --> 00:24:02.319
So just take a moment and breathe.
00:24:02.400 --> 00:24:06.160
And then I might say, When you do that, you know, what comes up?
00:24:06.319 --> 00:24:07.359
What comes up?
00:24:07.519 --> 00:24:11.119
And they might go, they might say, Well, that's how I felt.
00:24:11.279 --> 00:24:21.680
That's exactly how I felt when my dad used to yell at me when I was a kid, and it would upset me so much, but I couldn't say anything because it would be bad if I said anything.
00:24:21.920 --> 00:24:25.440
So we're looking at the body storage, literal body storage.
00:24:25.519 --> 00:24:28.480
The body remembers body storage of old stuff.
00:24:28.640 --> 00:24:37.039
We're trying to just unpack the whole picture of what's going on with this person right now so that we can start to understand it together.
00:24:37.279 --> 00:24:41.680
Self-understanding itself is very big, very freeing.
00:24:41.839 --> 00:24:51.119
You know, it allows us self-compassion, it allows us to not necessarily, for example, um, sort of say, well, you know, the distress is coming from out there.
00:24:51.279 --> 00:24:54.400
This person is doing this, and that's what's upsetting me.
00:24:54.480 --> 00:25:04.400
It allows us to understand a lot of what's going on inside is coming from within me based on my history as I've gone through life.
00:25:04.559 --> 00:25:05.839
And that can be any age.
00:25:06.160 --> 00:25:07.680
Yeah, we are chemical beings too.
00:25:07.759 --> 00:25:18.319
And I think when I have huge strong emotions about something that may be anger or something, and my body is creating cortisol and adrenaline.
00:25:18.720 --> 00:25:28.480
Well, I can understand why I feel that way and work that out, but that doesn't rid your body of cortisol.
00:25:28.720 --> 00:25:32.880
Cortisol sticks around what for like 12 hours, adrenaline for 30 minutes or whatever.
00:25:33.119 --> 00:25:37.759
And so you have this emotional state that's at a point chemically based.
00:25:38.000 --> 00:25:38.559
Yes.
00:25:38.799 --> 00:25:39.200
Yes.
00:25:39.680 --> 00:25:43.759
That's still there even though you've cognitively understood it.
00:25:44.079 --> 00:25:44.400
Right.
00:25:44.559 --> 00:25:46.880
And that's where information is really important.
00:25:47.279 --> 00:25:50.480
Just information about our bodies per se.
00:25:50.720 --> 00:26:00.240
Okay, I'm in this state, so I need to be noticing for the next 24 hours or so, accepting that I'm maybe hyper-reactive during this period.
00:26:00.480 --> 00:26:13.039
I may have trouble sleeping tonight, I may be grouchy with my partner tonight, and so that we can predict that in a way, understand it, and then do things that will mitigate that.
00:26:13.440 --> 00:26:15.599
And some of the things are body-based.
00:26:15.680 --> 00:26:24.000
Now, if you're saying, okay, you're gonna do square breathing, you're going to meditate, you're going to take a slow walk.
00:26:24.319 --> 00:26:27.759
Those, in a way, are somatic interventions.
00:26:28.000 --> 00:26:28.480
Interventions.
00:26:28.799 --> 00:26:29.119
They are.
00:26:29.359 --> 00:26:40.960
So that you get absolutely the big vagus nerve we've got that goes from our brain into every part of our body, and you're calming that down and getting more into the rest and digest part of the vagal system.
00:26:41.039 --> 00:26:44.400
And those are kind of like free drugs, right?
00:26:44.880 --> 00:26:46.319
They're not they're medications.
00:26:46.640 --> 00:26:48.000
No, I think I guess intervention.
00:26:48.079 --> 00:26:48.880
You you said it better than that.
00:26:49.359 --> 00:26:53.279
Intervention, self-intervention, you know, self-directed positive behavior.
00:26:53.519 --> 00:26:59.279
Yes, you're touching on the somatic interventions as it would appear in a clinical interview.
00:26:59.440 --> 00:27:23.200
You know, it's getting in touch with where the person is aroused in their body, where they're feeling sensations in their body, and then uh the behavioral or the somatic interventions, then are, as you're saying, you know, the the meditation, the the breathing, you know, the getting up in the morning and starting right out to do a bit of breathing to sort of center meditation.
00:27:23.440 --> 00:27:33.519
I'm big on exercise with my personal experience of bipolar, having a very reactive nervous system that will not shift.
00:27:33.680 --> 00:27:36.160
You know, there's no cure for bipolar.
00:27:36.240 --> 00:27:41.039
You don't get through it, you live with it and attempt to manage it the best you can.
00:27:41.279 --> 00:27:53.920
And so those mood swings, which are you know highly energized, the upstate is highly energized, and then the downstate is sort of a collapse where you can't feel like you can't do anything.
00:27:54.160 --> 00:28:00.400
But regular exercise, exercise, you know, really provides a structure for the body.
00:28:00.640 --> 00:28:17.920
Exercise helps you breathe right, it helps you sleep right, it provides you with healthy appetite, you want to eat right, it provides you with a body awareness that while the mental places may be sort of cycling and feel like, whoa, I'm not sure where I am right now.
00:28:18.079 --> 00:28:28.240
It's like I have my body, I'm confident in it, I'm safe in my body, I can find outlets that don't require a lot of thinking and emotional control.
00:28:28.640 --> 00:28:36.400
And those outlets then bring that emotional control into line, and it's bilateral stimulation.
00:28:36.559 --> 00:28:42.079
So bilateral stimulation, we have And EMDR has arrived in our conversation.
00:28:42.400 --> 00:28:43.200
I'm very glad.
00:28:43.359 --> 00:28:43.920
Oh, good.
00:28:44.240 --> 00:28:45.920
Tell us about EMDR.
00:28:46.079 --> 00:28:47.119
Oh, EMDR.
00:28:47.279 --> 00:28:53.759
Poor capital letters, and it means eye movement, desensitization, and reprocessing.
00:28:53.920 --> 00:29:02.799
Now, the woman who came up with EMDR, Francine Shapiro, in 1989 or so, she says at this point she would rename it, or she would have wanted, she's gone.
00:29:03.039 --> 00:29:18.000
But during her uh her life, she said she she would probably rename that because you don't necessarily have to use eye movement, although the studies do show still do show that eye movement is the most potent form of bilateral stimulation.
00:29:18.160 --> 00:29:26.960
And by bilateral stimulation, I mean that we look at really basic brain structure of humans, so all of us.
00:29:27.200 --> 00:29:35.359
And if you if you know held a held a brain in your hand, you know, there's this gelatinous globular thing that looks like a maze and stuff, but there's a center line.
00:29:35.440 --> 00:29:38.160
So we have a right hemisphere and a left hemisphere.
00:29:38.319 --> 00:29:46.799
And very crudely or in a gross sense, one side does emotional processing, handles emotional work.
00:29:47.359 --> 00:29:53.759
How do I go from being upset, triggered, angry, how do I then calm myself?
00:29:53.839 --> 00:29:58.960
It just does emotional work, and then the other side is more logically based.
00:29:59.279 --> 00:30:01.680
And so we need both of those.
00:30:02.000 --> 00:30:14.400
So when we have something that's too much to handle for where we are in time and space, you could call that trauma, but trauma is an overused word right now, so we'll call it something, an event.
00:30:14.559 --> 00:30:22.480
It could be your dad yelling at you when you're a kid, or it could be being in front of a class and being humiliated, embarrassed because you forgot the lesson, something like that.
00:30:22.640 --> 00:30:30.640
Could be you had a car accident, it could be you were in the war, could be there was a physical assault, you know, there's all kinds of events.
00:30:30.880 --> 00:30:36.400
But what we're looking at is how do events process in the mind?
00:30:36.559 --> 00:30:46.720
How is the information both emotional and logical organized and processed and integrated in real time?
00:30:47.359 --> 00:31:02.480
So if an event happens that's too much for me to process in real time, something happens, I didn't see it coming, I was in a car accident, my brain will say, first things first, get through it, call the police.
00:31:02.640 --> 00:31:04.720
It's that cool as a cucumber thing.
00:31:04.960 --> 00:31:13.599
Combat vets, for example, when under fire can focus, need to, are trained how to, medics are trained how to focus.
00:31:13.759 --> 00:31:17.440
That's the logical side, but the emotional side fired too.
00:31:17.680 --> 00:31:34.240
So when we have something that we can't process those emotional side, the emotional part, then our memory system shifts, and it's kind of like the whole memory kind of gets compartmentalized emotionally, particularly.
00:31:34.720 --> 00:31:47.119
And so when I'm talking to somebody, if I if I'm thinking, I wonder if that was a trauma, I wonder, you know, if that had a big impact, in other words, I ask them if they can remember it.
00:31:47.359 --> 00:31:56.720
And when we remember trauma because it's stored differently in the mind, it emerges in memory as if it were happening.
00:31:56.880 --> 00:31:58.400
People have vivid recall.
00:31:58.799 --> 00:32:04.799
I do remember, you know, in third grade, I stood up in front of a class, I forgot my lesson, and that was really humiliating.
00:32:04.960 --> 00:32:06.960
I can see that in my mind when I think about it.
00:32:07.119 --> 00:32:09.039
I can feel another rush of shame.
00:32:09.119 --> 00:32:13.039
I can see how I put my head down and went back to my chair and the kids were laughing.
00:32:13.279 --> 00:32:25.119
It's that vivid recall that tells a psychologist or anybody, oh, okay, that was an event that got stored in the memory system that's not normal, like, what did I have for breakfast three weeks ago?
00:32:25.359 --> 00:32:26.319
Who knows?
00:32:26.480 --> 00:32:36.000
But I can remember vividly with the package, with the emotions, where I was, with the cognitive, what I was thinking, what I was supposed to be doing, all of that.
00:32:36.240 --> 00:32:37.279
So that's how we know.
00:32:37.440 --> 00:32:40.079
That's how we know something had a traumatic impact.
00:32:40.319 --> 00:32:45.599
So that when someone comes in, say somebody will just use uh a car accident.
00:32:45.759 --> 00:32:48.480
What we want to find out is what happened.
00:32:48.720 --> 00:32:52.640
And so we're looking, is there a narrative?
00:32:52.960 --> 00:32:54.720
Is there a storyline?
00:32:55.039 --> 00:33:07.200
Because we know that when trauma happens, the narrative, the linearness of what actually happened at three o'clock, four o'clock, five o'clock, that gets real broken up, you know.
00:33:07.279 --> 00:33:15.920
And so when someone's coming in and like, oh, I just remember this, and then jump to another thought, and then, oh, and then I remember like three days later when I the insurance people called.
00:33:16.000 --> 00:33:29.839
And one of the jobs of therapy is to help reorganize the brain so that it can be put back in a linear narrative so that the brain can seamlessly process the emotional and the logical parts.
00:33:29.920 --> 00:33:33.359
So that's when we move the eyes from one side to the other side.
00:33:33.839 --> 00:33:38.480
And it's literally the movement of the eyes right to left.
00:33:38.880 --> 00:33:43.200
And you can do it from tapping or light, seeing lights move back and forth.
00:33:43.440 --> 00:33:43.920
Yes.
00:33:44.160 --> 00:33:50.319
It's activating, it activates the right side of the brain and the left side.
00:33:50.400 --> 00:33:56.400
So you move your eyes one way, it activates the brain, and then the other side activates the other.
00:33:56.480 --> 00:34:00.720
So the brain is activating emotional, logical, emotional, logical.
00:34:00.960 --> 00:34:15.360
So in healing, what we're doing there is looking at it and allowing the emotional material to now hook up with the logical material, meaning it's over.
00:34:15.519 --> 00:34:24.400
People can be in a fear state, like when you think of flashback, you know, that fear comes up, there's a flashback, and the person is caught in the fear state.
00:34:24.559 --> 00:34:35.920
If I'm working with a flashback in therapy, I'm asking about the flashback and then asking what's the memory, what's the picture image in your brain?
00:34:36.079 --> 00:34:37.599
You know, what was the worst part of that?
00:34:37.679 --> 00:34:39.119
That the flashback?
00:34:39.360 --> 00:34:40.559
What are the words?
00:34:40.800 --> 00:34:43.039
Because that's part of our cognitive inner being.
00:34:43.199 --> 00:34:43.920
What are the words?
00:34:44.000 --> 00:34:49.199
So it could be I'm out of control, I'm gonna die, I can't get out of here, I'm helpless.
00:34:49.280 --> 00:34:52.800
You know, we're looking for that the state that fed into the fear.
00:34:53.039 --> 00:34:54.960
And then what's the emotion?
00:34:55.119 --> 00:34:56.880
We're emotionally wired as well.
00:34:57.199 --> 00:35:03.679
Fear, terror, and where do you feel it right now in your body as you're remembering where do you feel it right now?
00:35:03.920 --> 00:35:06.079
I feel it shooting across my chest.
00:35:06.239 --> 00:35:10.960
Okay, hang on to all of that, please, and just watch my fingers.
00:35:11.280 --> 00:35:16.480
And so then I start moving my fingers systematically right at their eye level from right to left.
00:35:16.639 --> 00:35:19.519
And so now they're re-recording the memory.
00:35:19.599 --> 00:35:21.360
That's the reprocessing word.
00:35:21.679 --> 00:35:27.760
They're re-recording the memory, and the emotional side is able to talk to the logical side.
00:35:28.000 --> 00:35:29.519
So I'm really afraid.
00:35:29.679 --> 00:35:32.639
Okay, but I'm but the logical side, but you're here with the therapist.
00:35:32.800 --> 00:35:37.440
Okay, I mean, I'm remembering, you know, I just feel in my body how helpless I was.
00:35:37.679 --> 00:35:41.280
You know, the logical part of the mind is saying, okay, you go with that, you keep going.
00:35:41.360 --> 00:35:49.440
And then little by little, and if I need to help, I will with words, you know, to ground that little by little, their own brain is resourcing.
00:35:49.679 --> 00:36:02.320
Their own brain is going over to literal neural networks, neural networks, you know, conglomerates of neurons that have the information that it's over, that have the information that it's safe, that they're alive.
00:36:02.480 --> 00:36:04.960
And so you're allowing those two things to process.
00:36:05.039 --> 00:36:11.440
And so then however long it takes, whatever a session, single session wonders are very few and far between.
00:36:11.599 --> 00:36:12.159
Yes, right.
00:36:12.400 --> 00:36:13.119
Absolutely.
00:36:13.280 --> 00:36:29.519
I mean, things take lots of time, but that particular flashback, we can make a big impact so that that doesn't happen again because we've deconstructed the memory, the trigger, and brought the person back into real time.
00:36:29.679 --> 00:36:34.320
So now, next session I ask that person, have you had any more flashbacks?
00:36:34.639 --> 00:36:34.960
No.
00:36:35.679 --> 00:36:39.119
What does it feel like when you think about that flashback now?
00:36:39.360 --> 00:36:41.039
You know, just go back and think about it now.
00:36:41.199 --> 00:36:42.639
What does it feel like?
00:36:42.960 --> 00:36:44.880
Well, I'm not scared anymore.
00:36:45.039 --> 00:36:46.639
And it feels like a memory.
00:36:46.880 --> 00:36:48.719
That's what I'm looking for, a version of that.
00:36:49.039 --> 00:36:49.360
Yes.
00:36:49.519 --> 00:36:54.480
I've done EMDR a few different times with a wonderful practitioner down in Sealance Grove.
00:36:54.719 --> 00:36:56.239
I don't know if you know Cheryl Stumpf.
00:36:56.400 --> 00:36:58.800
She's uh a therapist, so she's terrific.
00:36:59.119 --> 00:37:00.159
I'm really glad to hear that.
00:37:00.480 --> 00:37:08.000
And you're right, you do take this memory, and you then are able to get to it and see it without the emotion.
00:37:08.320 --> 00:37:14.880
I found in a day after a a good session, I was exhausted.
00:37:15.119 --> 00:37:15.599
Absolutely.
00:37:15.840 --> 00:37:33.679
I'd been sitting in a chair, looking right, left, looking right, left, talking, remembering, and things sort of do come to you and they link to others, and we always kind of found the story that you're right, the story that was there linking a memory to a memory.
00:37:34.000 --> 00:37:34.320
Right.
00:37:34.480 --> 00:37:42.000
But it's just so shocking how m how exhausting it was, not in the moment, but the next day.
00:37:42.239 --> 00:37:45.519
And Sherald I'll say, No, you what you need to do is go take a nap right now.
00:37:45.599 --> 00:37:46.400
You need to just rest.
00:37:46.800 --> 00:37:47.039
Yeah.
00:37:47.199 --> 00:37:55.760
And and also not be surprised if it takes a day or so to sort of go take your nap and kind of come back up to feeling like yourself.
00:37:56.480 --> 00:37:58.079
Well, I think that's that's wonderful.
00:37:58.400 --> 00:38:02.960
I enjoy being on the on the therapist end very much.
00:38:03.199 --> 00:38:22.480
Not enjoy other people's uh horrible things that have happened though, of course not, but being able to join in that process of of in a way deconstructing, of deconstructing, you know, well, what happened in the emotional system, what happened here, what happened there, how did that then play out?
00:38:22.800 --> 00:38:27.920
One thing that is just front and center for me is it always makes sense.
00:38:28.159 --> 00:38:39.599
You know, if we if we look at the history, if we look at what has happened, you know, the you know, people's reactions and responses in relationship, it always makes sense.
00:38:39.679 --> 00:38:44.159
If someone comes in with low esteem and we're trying to low self-esteem, we're trying to look at that.
00:38:44.320 --> 00:38:52.800
They may be super bright, credentialed, you know, have friends, you know, but they have this low self-esteem, and it's kind of like, huh, you know, I don't understand it, but I'm so self-critical.
00:38:52.960 --> 00:38:56.880
We look back a little bit and we say, whose voice is it in your head?
00:38:57.039 --> 00:38:57.280
Yeah.
00:38:57.840 --> 00:38:59.440
What are the sentences you say in your head?
00:38:59.599 --> 00:39:00.800
Like, I'm really stupid.
00:39:01.119 --> 00:39:01.679
A big one.
00:39:01.920 --> 00:39:03.280
I'll never amount to anything.
00:39:03.519 --> 00:39:04.960
Where did you first hear that?
00:39:05.119 --> 00:39:09.840
You know, it always comes back to the teacher, the the parent, often the caretaker.
00:39:10.000 --> 00:39:22.960
As our brains were literally forming and adding neurons as we were progressing through the stages of mental social development, we may have heard those things thousands of times over 10, 15 years.
00:39:23.119 --> 00:39:33.599
And then the formative ones, the young ones that really are absorbed without intellectual overlay, meaning distance in a way, because we don't have the mental structures to hold them out.
00:39:33.760 --> 00:39:49.679
People will say, Oh, my dad used to always say, I'll never amount to, or my mom or somebody else, then that forms on the young brain that forms a particular impression, a particular narrative, a particular set of internal events.
00:39:49.840 --> 00:39:51.679
And then, you know, then there's the overlay.
00:39:51.760 --> 00:39:54.960
Then they come to kindergarten and maybe they couldn't read real well.
00:39:55.119 --> 00:39:56.880
Oh, well, I'll never amount to anything.
00:39:56.960 --> 00:39:57.519
I'm stupid.
00:39:57.599 --> 00:40:04.880
And then rather than the successes of, oh, I learned to read and I'm really good on the playground, that'll be re triggered and re triggered and re triggered.
00:40:04.960 --> 00:40:11.039
So we get to be an adult, even though we've gone through all these stages and accomplishments, it's like that's still in there.
00:40:11.360 --> 00:40:14.159
Well, what would you say to people as a therapist?
00:40:14.400 --> 00:40:28.000
Sort of DIY advice if people are struggling, fear, anxiety, anger, whatever, what takeaway can you give them here and now that we just give a little bit of relief or set them on a path?
00:40:28.480 --> 00:40:31.199
Um trust yourself.
00:40:31.599 --> 00:40:34.719
When I'm a client, I know myself better than anyone.
00:40:34.880 --> 00:40:38.719
But when you're a client, you know yourself better than anyone.
00:40:39.119 --> 00:40:59.360
If something is wrong, we're having thoughts that we don't like, or we're uh behaving in ways that we kind of don't understand, and we know that it's really not our core self, it's really not who we are, but we're getting into fights or we're having partner issues, and they just don't match up with who we know we are.
00:40:59.920 --> 00:41:02.639
Trust yourself and get help.
00:41:02.880 --> 00:41:18.000
Of course, I would say find a therapist, make sure or try to see that you have outlets because we can't always manage our emotional world, but movement.
00:41:18.159 --> 00:41:19.679
See if you can have different gears.
00:41:19.760 --> 00:41:29.280
I mean, we know that social connection is the highest predictor of mental health, connection and a strong social support network.
00:41:29.519 --> 00:41:30.000
Is it really?
00:41:30.239 --> 00:41:33.519
It really is, and that's been studied and studied again.
00:41:33.840 --> 00:41:38.960
Structure is so important because when we're upset, we're dysregulated.
00:41:39.119 --> 00:41:43.440
So, what are the things that we can bring that have positive regularity?
00:41:43.599 --> 00:41:45.519
That could be working out.
00:41:45.679 --> 00:41:52.159
That's a really great outlet for all kinds of stuff that introduces irregularity, self-confidence, all kinds of good things.
00:41:52.320 --> 00:41:53.840
Try to have a creative outlet.
00:41:54.000 --> 00:41:55.039
Those are general things.
00:41:55.199 --> 00:41:56.559
Find places where you're safe.
00:41:56.639 --> 00:42:02.880
That's big, where it feels safe to be who you are, and then seek help, you know.
00:42:03.519 --> 00:42:06.880
Well, I am not a trained therapist, but I do have a podcast.
00:42:07.119 --> 00:42:10.239
So here's my advice get to know your vagus nerve.
00:42:10.480 --> 00:42:18.079
Yes, actually find those times also the little breathing, the little you mentioned sleep.
00:42:18.320 --> 00:42:20.800
Sleep is foundational, but you can't sleep if you're wired.
00:42:21.039 --> 00:42:36.079
So there are other ways you can lower that vagus nerve or or the activity of the nerve, so you're in the lower states where you can rest and digest as opposed to being in a sympathetic state where you are constantly reacting, and cortisol is just driving your interaction.
00:42:36.239 --> 00:42:46.079
So I think think get to know that and find some sort of DIY breathing, meditation, like you said, moving to the yoga.
00:42:46.400 --> 00:42:58.000
Yeah, so you so the the calming, you know, when you need that, then you got of what what you're saying, the the yoga, the meditation, the the the tai chi, though those things.
00:42:58.079 --> 00:43:11.440
And then, you know, when you need the activation or but we all you know, we it's kind of like um getting your teeth cleaned or something, you know, maintenance of our nervous system, literally, because our nervous system and brain are connected.
00:43:11.599 --> 00:43:14.800
Yeah, they are the same thing essentially as extension.
00:43:14.960 --> 00:43:18.079
And so we want to do maintenance, upkeep of that.
00:43:18.239 --> 00:43:23.519
So we want to have activation, healthy activation that hopefully is bilateral.
00:43:23.599 --> 00:43:33.599
That could be, you know, because then we're then we're stimulating rhythmically the emotional side of the brain, the logical side, each of which needs stimulation and maintenance.
00:43:34.079 --> 00:43:35.599
I think of it like hygiene.
00:43:35.920 --> 00:43:37.280
Hygiene, that's the word I'm looking for.
00:43:38.719 --> 00:43:43.599
We stretch, we go to yoga, we have hygiene for our heart, so we walk and our brain, we read.
00:43:43.760 --> 00:43:45.360
And for this, too.
00:43:45.440 --> 00:43:50.320
There's a hygiene to our emotional states that involves the thing you've just mentioned.
00:43:50.559 --> 00:43:52.559
Yes, uh, that's the perfect word.
00:43:53.280 --> 00:43:54.480
Well, thank you so much.
00:43:54.639 --> 00:43:56.719
This has been a terrific conversation.
00:43:56.880 --> 00:43:59.679
I appreciate your time and your knowledge.
00:43:59.920 --> 00:44:01.599
So thank you so much.
00:44:01.920 --> 00:44:06.639
Oh, you're so welcome, and I I thank you very much for allowing me to come and speak.
00:44:06.960 --> 00:44:08.400
It's been very nice.
00:44:09.440 --> 00:44:13.840
Well, this has been Locals, the podcast, in which we talk to people who are local.
00:44:14.079 --> 00:44:20.000
Join us next week for another local, another conversation, and another episode of this very podcast.
00:44:20.719 --> 00:44:22.320
Have a nice week.
00:44:22.559 --> 00:44:24.800
The host voice you heard was Rand Whipple.
00:44:25.039 --> 00:44:28.559
The editor you did not was Angel Parada Vieira.
