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Do you own the influence that you have?
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Do you find it causes you to protect those who trust you?
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Welcome to this week's episode of Living Influence.
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Bill?
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Hi, Scott.
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How are you, brother?
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I'm doing well.
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Good.
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I'm doing well.
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It's good to be with you.
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Thank you.
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I agree.
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I like this topic.
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As we were planning out our conversation, it caused me to think about organizations.
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And I like the word organizations because in the root of the word organizations is organic.
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And so a company...
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is an organization that's organic.
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It's made up of people.
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Absolutely.
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And it's made up of people who relate with one another.
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Yep.
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So an organization is actually a collection of relationships.
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Yep.
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Well said.
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And people.
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Well said.
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And this concept of owning influence and providing protection is huge.
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Mm-hmm.
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To having an organization run well.
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Absolutely.
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Let's start with just the words owning influence.
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Yeah.
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Let's just start with those words.
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Good.
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The second word first.
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Each one of us every day has influence.
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We can try to avoid it, try to ignore it, or try to downplay it, but the truth is we have influence.
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Yes.
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And influence is best measured in the effect we have on others.
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Yeah, you could ask people...
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Do you know of people that trust you?
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Exactly.
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And I imagine people will go, well, yeah, there's a few.
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Right.
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And those are people that they influence.
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Absolutely.
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Yeah.
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And we influence people just in general because we're part of the race.
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Yeah.
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I like to challenge leaders with these words.
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Do you have the courage to ask those you are influencing, how are you affecting them?
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Do you have the courage to ask those you are influencing, how are you affecting?
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How am I affecting you?
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How am I affecting you?
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Right.
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And I say that pretty sincerely because we can make all kinds of assumptions.
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Hey, I'm really doing well.
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My people love me.
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Well, have you ever asked them?
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Yeah.
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You know, you give them a paycheck and they'll honor you, but have you ever asked them?
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And I love to tell this story, Scott.
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I've done some work with leaders all over the world, but I had a large group of leaders in India.
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And so I made the statement one day, I'd like to ask you guys to imagine asking people, how am I affecting you?
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One of the major leaders of this whole thing, he went home to his wife and he asked her, how am I affecting you?
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And he thought he was going to get this elaborate, oh my gosh, I'm the best husband that ever lived kind of answer.
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And she didn't say anything.
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And he said, I was befuddled by that.
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So I asked her again.
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Bill said, I'm supposed to ask you, how am I affecting you?
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And then she started laughing.
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And I thought, this isn't going the way I thought it was going to go.
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What's going on?
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Why are you laughing?
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She said, after 27 years, you're finally asking me how you're affecting me?
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And then she made the magic statement.
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Are you sure you really want to know?
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Wow.
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Yeah, it's very powerful.
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And he said it was such a shock to him.
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He had this illusion.
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Yeah.
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But it wasn't her reality.
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And he said it was just for him and them.
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I don't know their culture that well, so I don't know how hard this really was within their culture.
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But he said for them, it ended up being the most refreshing experience they've had in their marriage.
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And I say that to a lot of leaders.
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Don't assume you understand the effect of your influence.
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But once you do get an answer, then own it.
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That's what I mean by owning influence.
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If I ask you, Scott, how am I affecting you?
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I must never ask that if I don't want your answer.
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I must never ask it.
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Because if I get your answer and it causes me to be defensive, I've lost my ability to influence you.
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Yeah.
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You'll never trust me again with that.
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Mm-hmm.
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Now, so I want to pause and say to us, I have influence.
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Am I willing to own the influence?
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I won't know until I have the courage to ask.
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And once I ask, am I willing to do something?
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Am I willing to understand the courage it takes for another person to be honest with me about my effect?
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Could I honor your courage?
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Could I humbly come into your presence and say to you, I really would like to know.
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Thank God if it's good, let's praise God together.
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But if there are issues, let's ask God for the wisdom and the courage to respond.
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Because there's a goal in mind.
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There's a goal in mind.
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I'm a leader.
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I'm a Christian leader.
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I love people.
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You know, I believe, Scott, that you and I as leaders have a responsibility to protect those we influence.
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I really do.
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I believe that.
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Yeah.
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I believe that as a father.
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I believe that as a husband.
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I believe that as a friend.
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I believe that as a leader of leaders.
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So what does it mean to protect another person?
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That's a great question.
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What it means, in my mind, is this.
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Let's please be mature enough to never be surprised that we have problems.
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Come on, stop it.
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Stop acting like no one has problems.
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What if my opportunity to protect you sounded like this?
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Scott, you're all screwed up.
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What are we going to do about that?
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What are you going to do about that?
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You're all screwed up.
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What are you going to do about that?
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What if it sounded like that?
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Or I'm really disappointed in you.
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You know, that's the fifth time you did that.
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Yeah.
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Or whatever.
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Whatever the language is where I point at you to make sure you understand how screwed up you are.
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Right.
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But what if I had a different posture?
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Okay.
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What if my posture was this?
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What if I literally would come over to you and stand by you and put my arm around you?
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And you and I made a decision, which, by the way, we have.
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We stand next to each other, and our problems are never between us.
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Yeah.
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That our problems are now in front of us.
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Mm-hmm.
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Now, the way we can best protect each other
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is to never let our weaknesses define us.
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Let our relationship define us and let our relationship deal with the limitations we have or the weaknesses expressed in ourselves.
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The best way I can offer protection is to say this to you.
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Scott, you know, you screwed up again.
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Listen to the magic words.
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What do you think we should do about this?
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Yeah.
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What do you think we should do about this?
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And I invite myself to come alongside you in your issue and protect you in your limitation.
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There's two levels of dynamics that I teach in organizations.
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One is, which we won't go into at all, but just learning to submit to each other's strengths.
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Right.
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The other dynamic, which is deeper and more difficult, is learning to protect each other's limitations.
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Yeah.
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Now, what happens is this.
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If I don't know I'm going to be protected, I will do everything to never disclose my limitations.
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Mm-hmm.
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But what will happen is they'll seep out in dysfunction.
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Yeah.
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So you'll know them anyway.
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Yeah.
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Now that I'm known, what are you going to do to me now that you know this is true about me?
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Are you going to scold me?
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Are you going to discard me?
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Are you going to get rid of me?
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What are you going to do?
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Or are you going to come alongside me?
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Yeah.
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Well, who does that?
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Well, I, by God's grace, God, have come alongside a lot of leaders.
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Yeah.
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I know I've told this story on the podcast before, but I've got to tell it again.
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I was helping a leader in another state, and I was meeting with his wife to discuss part of the process.
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And their son, their adult son, was in the same place in the restaurant.
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And he came to our table, and he, oh, I didn't know you were here.
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And he said, I got some friends I want to introduce you to, Bill.
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So he takes me over to his friend's table, and this is how he introduces me.
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Guys, this is Bill Thrall.
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You really don't want people to know you know him, because if you know him, it means you're really screwed up.
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Because he comes alongside screwed up people.
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And yet, what a compliment.
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Yeah.
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What a compliment.
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Yeah, that's how I knew you.
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It was a funny moment, but what a compliment.
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So here's the thing.
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I'm not surprised that individuals make bad choices.
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I'm not surprised that there are consequences often to the bad choices they make.
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I'm not naive.
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I also know that they agonize.
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in their choice.
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It isn't like they made a choice that don't care.
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They care.
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They just don't have to deal with it.
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I also know how important it is for them to have somebody who's willing to come alongside them in spite of what they've done.
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By the way, this is exactly how God deals with us.
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I know it's hard for people to understand this, but
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God said to us, I will never leave you or forsake you.
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And I teasingly say to a lot of audiences, that means that we have taken God to some pretty weird places, but he's never going to be away from us.
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Now, what that means is my behavior never defines my relationship with God, ever.
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My relationship with God is defined by God in my behalf.
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Yeah.
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Yeah, which is beautiful.
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Now, what if we acted and lived with each other, Scott, in that same context?
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Yeah.
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What if I could say, as a leader, I know I have an influence on people.
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I'd love that influence to be good.
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I'm willing for it to be challenged because I don't want to lose something, Scott.
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I don't want to lose the opportunity to come alongside people when they need me the most.
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Yeah.
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And when they need me the most is when I have the opportunity to provide for them some sense of protection.
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Yeah.
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Some sense that says...
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Charlie, you really did screw up.
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That's a big one.
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That's horrible.
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But I'm with you.
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Yeah.
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Now let's deal with what you've done.
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Yeah.
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Hear those key words?
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Let's deal with what you've done.
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So I have a project manager in our company.
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Yes.
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And this person nails the details.
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just nails them.
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Loose ends drive this person crazy.
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They get stressed out.
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And when they're stressed out, they're hacked out.
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They're not fun to be around when there's loose ends that aren't nailed to the ground.
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And so this person's projects...
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always are executed at the highest level.
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Wow.
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The questions are always answered, the things finish, but this person is also very black and white.
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Mm-hmm.
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When this black and white person encounters gray areas, either left for that person by an estimator or caused by our customer, a general contractor, I mean, you know, storms happen.
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And bodies fly.
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And often you have to go in and kind of clean up.
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His mess.
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The mess that was made.
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Sure.
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Sure.
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But...
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Without that thing that causes them to go bonkers when everything's not nailed, they wouldn't be as amazing as they are at nailing the detail.
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So it's this area.
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Literally this strength and weakness.
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Right.
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It's not about me fixing the weakness.
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If I get this person okay with loose ends, they won't nail them like they do right now.
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Good for you.
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Right?
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Thank you.
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No, excellent.
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So sometimes in a company, it's about coming alongside, but it's also about protecting that person.
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They've got a real strength, and that strength has a consequence that sometimes can cause problems.
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Good for you.
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Well said, Scott.
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But you protect the problems.
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Exactly.
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You know, the estimator that gets chewed out for leaving a loose end, you go, do you realize the stress that this person is under and we give this person a little grace?
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The person with the strength that can cause the issue, they have come to know that's true.
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And it's softened them.
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I totally agree.
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And they're growing.
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I don't think it'll ever be gone.
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No.
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Because it's what makes the person strong.
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Good for you.
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So you're describing it exceptionally well, in my opinion.
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So what do we do?
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Do you then go in, like you just said?
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Okay, we've got to minimize his reactions at the price of his excellence.
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Probably not.
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Probably what you do is what you're doing.
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And I would just add this caveat.
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He's already experiencing it.
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And that is, he's already aware that you are aware.
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And that you are protecting him in spite of what you're aware of.
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That's kind of driving him crazy.
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He's going, how does Scott put up with me?
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Because I don't put up with anybody else.
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So that's a perfect example of offering protection.
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The only caveat I would have is this.
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I like to take that person to a neutral place.
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Outside the context where it happens.
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Yeah.
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Take them to a neutral place.
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Yeah.
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And in a neutral place, outside of the workplace, I don't care where that is, but in a neutral place, for their sake, rehearse with them what they experienced.
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Yeah.
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If you do— Because?
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Because what happens is—
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They don't know how to correct what they're doing.
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They've tried 8,422 times.
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Yeah.
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And we know that.
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What you're doing when you bring them to a neutral place is you're saying to them, there is a way for us to learn things that are hard.
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One of the things we learn things that are hard is we have permission, those are key words, to rehearse together what you experience when it happens.
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Remember what I didn't just say, for you to rehearse what you did, I didn't say that.
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I didn't say to you to rehearse how Charlie reacted.
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What I said was, for us to rehearse what you experienced when it happened.
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Because it's deep in his own experience where the correction has to take place, not in the behavior.
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Yeah, and so that helps them.
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Oh, phenomenally.
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In growing.
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Phenomenally.
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Yeah, yeah.
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Because they don't know how to rehearse that with somebody that's safe.
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They don't know how.
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Yeah.
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And they don't even know there is somebody safe.
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Yeah.
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So that's why I've learned that.
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Just take them out of the context.
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So as a pastor, when I'd be dealing with a person, I'd always say to them, I don't want to meet you at the church.
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Let's go meet at this place.
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So as we practice this, great example, Scott.
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As we practice this, only our influence were committed to coming alongside others for the benefit of protecting them in their limitations.
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and you just described it, in a way that they could still have the blessing of their strengths so that their limitations do not define them.
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Let's not be shocked by people's inability to self-correct.
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When did that become the solution?
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That's never the solution.
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Never.
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I believe in my heart of hearts that God designed us for each other.
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I believe that.
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And I need you, Scott.
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And I need others in my life.
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And I'd like others to need me in their life.
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I'd love to be able to keep practicing the process of protection for my benefit and for the benefit of everyone I influence.
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Once again, thanks for watching Living Influence.
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Be remiss if I didn't tell you we've got a conference coming up in Denver that you would love to attend if you're
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involved in leadership and business.
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You find the details about that on livinginfluenceleadership.com.
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Hey, we hope to see you next week.
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We're going to start a series next week on family and kids.
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Yeah, we are.
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And so we're excited about that.
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We hope to see you then.
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Take care.
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Thanks for listening to Living Influence.
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We appreciate you.
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Just a call to action.
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We would love it if you would share our podcast with one or two people this week.
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Thanks again.
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Do you own the influence that you have?
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Do you find it causes you to protect those who trust you?
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Welcome to this week's episode of Living Influence.
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Bill?
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Hi, Scott.
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How are you, brother?
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I'm doing well.
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Good.
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I'm doing well.
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It's good to be with you.
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Thank you.
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I agree.
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I like this topic.
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As we were planning out our conversation, it caused me to think about organizations.
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And I like the word organizations because in the root of the word organizations is organic.
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And so a company...
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is an organization that's organic.
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It's made up of people.
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Absolutely.
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And it's made up of people who relate with one another.
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Yep.
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So an organization is actually a collection of relationships.
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Yep.
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Well said.
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And people.
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Well said.
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And this concept of owning influence and providing protection is huge.
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Mm-hmm.
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To having an organization run well.
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Absolutely.
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Let's start with just the words owning influence.
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Yeah.
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Let's just start with those words.
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Good.
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The second word first.
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Each one of us every day has influence.
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We can try to avoid it, try to ignore it, or try to downplay it, but the truth is we have influence.
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Yes.
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And influence is best measured in the effect we have on others.
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Yeah, you could ask people...
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Do you know of people that trust you?
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Exactly.
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And I imagine people will go, well, yeah, there's a few.
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Right.
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And those are people that they influence.
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Absolutely.
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Yeah.
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And we influence people just in general because we're part of the race.
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Yeah.
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I like to challenge leaders with these words.
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Do you have the courage to ask those you are influencing, how are you affecting them?
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Do you have the courage to ask those you are influencing, how are you affecting?
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How am I affecting you?
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How am I affecting you?
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Right.
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And I say that pretty sincerely because we can make all kinds of assumptions.
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Hey, I'm really doing well.
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My people love me.
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Well, have you ever asked them?
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Yeah.
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You know, you give them a paycheck and they'll honor you, but have you ever asked them?
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And I love to tell this story, Scott.
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I've done some work with leaders all over the world, but I had a large group of leaders in India.
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And so I made the statement one day, I'd like to ask you guys to imagine asking people, how am I affecting you?
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One of the major leaders of this whole thing, he went home to his wife and he asked her, how am I affecting you?
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And he thought he was going to get this elaborate, oh my gosh, I'm the best husband that ever lived kind of answer.
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And she didn't say anything.
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And he said, I was befuddled by that.
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So I asked her again.
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Bill said, I'm supposed to ask you, how am I affecting you?
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And then she started laughing.
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And I thought, this isn't going the way I thought it was going to go.
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What's going on?
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Why are you laughing?
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She said, after 27 years, you're finally asking me how you're affecting me?
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And then she made the magic statement.
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Are you sure you really want to know?
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Wow.
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Yeah, it's very powerful.
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And he said it was such a shock to him.
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He had this illusion.
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Yeah.
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But it wasn't her reality.
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And he said it was just for him and them.
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I don't know their culture that well, so I don't know how hard this really was within their culture.
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But he said for them, it ended up being the most refreshing experience they've had in their marriage.
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And I say that to a lot of leaders.
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Don't assume you understand the effect of your influence.
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But once you do get an answer, then own it.
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That's what I mean by owning influence.
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If I ask you, Scott, how am I affecting you?
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I must never ask that if I don't want your answer.
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I must never ask it.
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Because if I get your answer and it causes me to be defensive, I've lost my ability to influence you.
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Yeah.
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You'll never trust me again with that.
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Mm-hmm.
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Now, so I want to pause and say to us, I have influence.
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Am I willing to own the influence?
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I won't know until I have the courage to ask.
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And once I ask, am I willing to do something?
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Am I willing to understand the courage it takes for another person to be honest with me about my effect?
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Could I honor your courage?
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Could I humbly come into your presence and say to you, I really would like to know.
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Thank God if it's good, let's praise God together.
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But if there are issues, let's ask God for the wisdom and the courage to respond.
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Because there's a goal in mind.
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There's a goal in mind.
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I'm a leader.
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I'm a Christian leader.
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I love people.
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You know, I believe, Scott, that you and I as leaders have a responsibility to protect those we influence.
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I really do.
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I believe that.
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Yeah.
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I believe that as a father.
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I believe that as a husband.
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I believe that as a friend.
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I believe that as a leader of leaders.
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So what does it mean to protect another person?
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That's a great question.
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What it means, in my mind, is this.
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Let's please be mature enough to never be surprised that we have problems.
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Come on, stop it.
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Stop acting like no one has problems.
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What if my opportunity to protect you sounded like this?
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Scott, you're all screwed up.
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What are we going to do about that?
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What are you going to do about that?
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You're all screwed up.
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What are you going to do about that?
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What if it sounded like that?
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Or I'm really disappointed in you.
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You know, that's the fifth time you did that.
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Yeah.
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Or whatever.
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Whatever the language is where I point at you to make sure you understand how screwed up you are.
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Right.
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But what if I had a different posture?
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Okay.
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What if my posture was this?
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What if I literally would come over to you and stand by you and put my arm around you?
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And you and I made a decision, which, by the way, we have.
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We stand next to each other, and our problems are never between us.
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Yeah.
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That our problems are now in front of us.
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Mm-hmm.
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Now, the way we can best protect each other
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is to never let our weaknesses define us.
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Let our relationship define us and let our relationship deal with the limitations we have or the weaknesses expressed in ourselves.
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The best way I can offer protection is to say this to you.
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Scott, you know, you screwed up again.
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Listen to the magic words.
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What do you think we should do about this?
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Yeah.
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What do you think we should do about this?
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And I invite myself to come alongside you in your issue and protect you in your limitation.
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There's two levels of dynamics that I teach in organizations.
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One is, which we won't go into at all, but just learning to submit to each other's strengths.
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Right.
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The other dynamic, which is deeper and more difficult, is learning to protect each other's limitations.
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Yeah.
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Now, what happens is this.
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If I don't know I'm going to be protected, I will do everything to never disclose my limitations.
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Mm-hmm.
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But what will happen is they'll seep out in dysfunction.
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Yeah.
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So you'll know them anyway.
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Yeah.
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Now that I'm known, what are you going to do to me now that you know this is true about me?
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Are you going to scold me?
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Are you going to discard me?
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Are you going to get rid of me?
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What are you going to do?
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Or are you going to come alongside me?
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Yeah.
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Well, who does that?
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Well, I, by God's grace, God, have come alongside a lot of leaders.
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Yeah.
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I know I've told this story on the podcast before, but I've got to tell it again.
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I was helping a leader in another state, and I was meeting with his wife to discuss part of the process.
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And their son, their adult son, was in the same place in the restaurant.
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And he came to our table, and he, oh, I didn't know you were here.
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And he said, I got some friends I want to introduce you to, Bill.
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So he takes me over to his friend's table, and this is how he introduces me.
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Guys, this is Bill Thrall.
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You really don't want people to know you know him, because if you know him, it means you're really screwed up.
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Because he comes alongside screwed up people.
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And yet, what a compliment.
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Yeah.
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What a compliment.
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Yeah, that's how I knew you.
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It was a funny moment, but what a compliment.
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So here's the thing.
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I'm not surprised that individuals make bad choices.
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I'm not surprised that there are consequences often to the bad choices they make.
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I'm not naive.
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I also know that they agonize.
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in their choice.
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It isn't like they made a choice that don't care.
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They care.
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They just don't have to deal with it.
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I also know how important it is for them to have somebody who's willing to come alongside them in spite of what they've done.
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By the way, this is exactly how God deals with us.
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I know it's hard for people to understand this, but
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God said to us, I will never leave you or forsake you.
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And I teasingly say to a lot of audiences, that means that we have taken God to some pretty weird places, but he's never going to be away from us.
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Now, what that means is my behavior never defines my relationship with God, ever.
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My relationship with God is defined by God in my behalf.
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Yeah.
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Yeah, which is beautiful.
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Now, what if we acted and lived with each other, Scott, in that same context?
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Yeah.
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What if I could say, as a leader, I know I have an influence on people.
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I'd love that influence to be good.
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I'm willing for it to be challenged because I don't want to lose something, Scott.
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I don't want to lose the opportunity to come alongside people when they need me the most.
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Yeah.
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And when they need me the most is when I have the opportunity to provide for them some sense of protection.
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Yeah.
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Some sense that says...
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Charlie, you really did screw up.
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That's a big one.
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That's horrible.
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But I'm with you.
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Yeah.
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Now let's deal with what you've done.
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Yeah.
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Hear those key words?
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Let's deal with what you've done.
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So I have a project manager in our company.
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Yes.
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And this person nails the details.
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just nails them.
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Loose ends drive this person crazy.
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They get stressed out.
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And when they're stressed out, they're hacked out.
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They're not fun to be around when there's loose ends that aren't nailed to the ground.
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And so this person's projects...
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always are executed at the highest level.
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Wow.
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The questions are always answered, the things finish, but this person is also very black and white.
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Mm-hmm.
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When this black and white person encounters gray areas, either left for that person by an estimator or caused by our customer, a general contractor, I mean, you know, storms happen.
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And bodies fly.
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And often you have to go in and kind of clean up.
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His mess.
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The mess that was made.
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Sure.
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Sure.
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But...
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Without that thing that causes them to go bonkers when everything's not nailed, they wouldn't be as amazing as they are at nailing the detail.
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So it's this area.
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Literally this strength and weakness.
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Right.
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It's not about me fixing the weakness.
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If I get this person okay with loose ends, they won't nail them like they do right now.
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Good for you.
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Right?
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Thank you.
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No, excellent.
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So sometimes in a company, it's about coming alongside, but it's also about protecting that person.
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They've got a real strength, and that strength has a consequence that sometimes can cause problems.
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Good for you.
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Well said, Scott.
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But you protect the problems.
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Exactly.
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You know, the estimator that gets chewed out for leaving a loose end, you go, do you realize the stress that this person is under and we give this person a little grace?
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The person with the strength that can cause the issue, they have come to know that's true.
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And it's softened them.
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I totally agree.
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And they're growing.
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I don't think it'll ever be gone.
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No.
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Because it's what makes the person strong.
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Good for you.
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So you're describing it exceptionally well, in my opinion.
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So what do we do?
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Do you then go in, like you just said?
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Okay, we've got to minimize his reactions at the price of his excellence.
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Probably not.
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Probably what you do is what you're doing.
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And I would just add this caveat.
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He's already experiencing it.
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And that is, he's already aware that you are aware.
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And that you are protecting him in spite of what you're aware of.
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That's kind of driving him crazy.
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He's going, how does Scott put up with me?
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Because I don't put up with anybody else.
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So that's a perfect example of offering protection.
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The only caveat I would have is this.
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I like to take that person to a neutral place.
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Outside the context where it happens.
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Yeah.
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Take them to a neutral place.
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Yeah.
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And in a neutral place, outside of the workplace, I don't care where that is, but in a neutral place, for their sake, rehearse with them what they experienced.
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Yeah.
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If you do— Because?
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Because what happens is—
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They don't know how to correct what they're doing.
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They've tried 8,422 times.
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Yeah.
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And we know that.
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What you're doing when you bring them to a neutral place is you're saying to them, there is a way for us to learn things that are hard.
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One of the things we learn things that are hard is we have permission, those are key words, to rehearse together what you experience when it happens.
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Remember what I didn't just say, for you to rehearse what you did, I didn't say that.
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I didn't say to you to rehearse how Charlie reacted.
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What I said was, for us to rehearse what you experienced when it happened.
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Because it's deep in his own experience where the correction has to take place, not in the behavior.
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Yeah, and so that helps them.
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Oh, phenomenally.
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In growing.
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Phenomenally.
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Yeah, yeah.
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Because they don't know how to rehearse that with somebody that's safe.
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They don't know how.
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Yeah.
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And they don't even know there is somebody safe.
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Yeah.
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So that's why I've learned that.
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Just take them out of the context.
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So as a pastor, when I'd be dealing with a person, I'd always say to them, I don't want to meet you at the church.
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Let's go meet at this place.
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So as we practice this, great example, Scott.
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As we practice this, only our influence were committed to coming alongside others for the benefit of protecting them in their limitations.
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and you just described it, in a way that they could still have the blessing of their strengths so that their limitations do not define them.
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Let's not be shocked by people's inability to self-correct.
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When did that become the solution?
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That's never the solution.
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Never.
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I believe in my heart of hearts that God designed us for each other.
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I believe that.
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And I need you, Scott.
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And I need others in my life.
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And I'd like others to need me in their life.
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I'd love to be able to keep practicing the process of protection for my benefit and for the benefit of everyone I influence.
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Once again, thanks for watching Living Influence.
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Be remiss if I didn't tell you we've got a conference coming up in Denver that you would love to attend if you're
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involved in leadership and business.
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You find the details about that on livinginfluenceleadership.com.
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Hey, we hope to see you next week.
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We're going to start a series next week on family and kids.
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Yeah, we are.
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And so we're excited about that.
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We hope to see you then.
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Take care.
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Thanks for listening to Living Influence.
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We appreciate you.
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Just a call to action.
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We would love it if you would share our podcast with one or two people this week.
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Thanks again.
