S3E20 - Will discusses how he is processing his sudden cancer diagnosis

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Hello, My name is Will and my name is Ellie.
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Welcome to Lively Minds, the podcast about mental health challenges
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that go beyond the ebb and flow of the every day.
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The podcast that looks at how building a better understanding
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of our mental health can influence how we address it.
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Hello, Ellie, Hi Will.
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We haven't done this for ages.
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It has been a while, hasn't it.
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We did manage to release a episode last month because
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we had some footage in the bank, as it were,
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from a previous interview, which was great. But yeah, this
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is the first time that you and I have spoken
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for a very long time.
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Well for the podcast, Yeah, for the podcast. Yeah, it'd
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be a bit weird if we just hadn't spoken.
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Yes. Yeah.
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People may be surprised to hear that we do sometimes
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have conversations that we don't record.
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Because if we've had a bit of a break in
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recording new episodes, and like, a lot's gone on. So
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I don't know if you want to start by just
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giving us summer, what the hell's been happening?
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A lood has been going on.
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Yes, So at the end of November twenty twenty five,
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I discovered that a something that I thought was was
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a lingering infection that I'd been told was something called
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epididy or kitis, basically a testicular infection, was in fact
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a very advanced stage testicular cancer. The discovery of this
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happened in about the space of thirty six hours.
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Yeah, that is the most bizarre text exchange I think
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I've ever had with someone. You were like, Yeah, I've
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just been to appointment. I think it's just wrong antibiotics.
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So yeah, just put me on a new one, so
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you know, pain's probably getting better. Feels good than like
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felt like twenty minutes late. You're just like, right, so
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I'm starting chemo now.
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That's not far off what actually happened. I started this
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new antibiotics, as you say, they weren't seeming to do
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anything whatsoever. So I went in yet again to you
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where i'd been referred to, and thankfully because i'd been
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referred to urology, I could skip A and E and
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go to their emergency missions unit, where I got seen
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in the wee hours of the morning by a doctor
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that I hadn't come across before, who said, and I
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still remember his exact words, he went, I think we
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might have to think of an alternative diagnosis. I didn't
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think anything of that in terms of cancer, because I'd
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been told from the previous ultrasounds that there was there
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was no cancer present. But then I went to the
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next morning, I had an ultrasound. I waited all day
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in the hospital. At the end a doctor came and
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told me that I had testicular cancer. At that point,
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it was thought to be quite early stages, and Ochayact
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to me, was thought to be the solution. And I
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even went down to the office of the anthetists to
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have the full pre op sort of questionnaire.
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And checking things.
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And then the next day I got a phone call
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from the hospital saying, we need you to come in
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now to be admitted because actually your tumor markers are
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sky high, and yeah, you have to come in right
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away to start chemotherapy, and so yeah, that will happen
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within the space of about thirty six hours. Yeah, it
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was quite a massive shock. So the conversation I'd be
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really interested in just having today is just talking through
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some of the mental health observations I've made in the
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what is it now for three four months that have
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passed since that thirty two hour period, Because there's been
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quite a lot of stuff going on in my mind
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as much as obviously out there in the real world.
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And I think, I mean, it's obviously important to say
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at this point that this is just me talking about
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this based on my experiences, and I realized that there's
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people out there who will have very different experiences and
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somebody who before getting ill with cancer really had very
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little issues when it came to physical health problems. Obviously,
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I've had mental health problems for a very long time,
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as regular listeners to the podcast will know, So in
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that sense, I'm conscious that there's people who have had
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physical health problems their entire life, and and that they'll
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have their own experiences as well. And so, yeah, this
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is really just about me unpacking I guess some of
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the stuff that's happened over the past three or four months.
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And I will really welcome your input to Ellie.
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Yeah, no, but I was actually maybe this is a
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good time to say that, because I hadn't said it
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to you before. But one of the reasons I was
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so worried for you and felt so bad for you
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was because you haven't had like particularly intense long term
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health issues physical body stuff before. That made me feel
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like what you were going through is even worse because
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when I've had a sudden cancer scare and had to
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go through a cancer clinic or something, at least I'm
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used to being in hospital. I'm used to having scans
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show something weird like I've got and psychologically, I've had
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years of therapy about how I relate to my own
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body when it's not doing what I wanted to and
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all of that. And I just felt so bad for
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you that you had You're just it's like being thrown
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into the deep end of just like, yeah, you've now
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got to physically deal with this, socially deal with it,
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which is a whole other thing, and like mentally deal
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with not just what is happening to you and everything,
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but also just the whole everyday reality of being in
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hospital being poorly. I just, yeah, like it made me
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feel not worse. Sounds like it would be comparative, like
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I wouldn't feel as bad as if you'd had health
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problems before. But I remember thinking about that a lot.
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I aware that you were having to do a lot
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of work in your head in a very intense way.
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Yeah, and that's that's that's true. I mean, I think
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It was just the thing that I remember most about,
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you know, heading into the hospital and sort of sitting
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there waiting for the consultants to come and see me.
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Was shock.
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I mean, you know, I know that that's an obvious
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thing to say in a way, but the best way
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of describing it is that I ended up being admitted
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for a week to have first intensive batch of chemotherapy.
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For that entire week, I kind of felt like I
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was actually dreaming. I know people say that, but I
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actually I honestly felt like I was going to wake
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up at some point that this sounds really weird about
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that someone was going to come in.
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And go, ah haha, surprise, it's not this is not real.
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This was a test, This was some kind of weird experiment.
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You know.
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I honestly thought that was going to happen. I kept
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on like, I kept on thinking I was going to
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pinch myself and wake up. So it was almost like
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this weird kind of dream like state that I found
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myself in.
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Was it like detached from what?
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Yeah, yeah, I think there was a certain amount of detachment,
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detachment going on in a certain amount of dissociation, but.
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So yeah, it was. It was It was very full on,
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And I guess what was full on.
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About it was that I had this scan to see
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how far the cancer would spread. Next day, just before
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starting the actual chemotherapy, my consultant came and told me
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that the cancer had spread to the liver, and that
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meant that I was in the poor slash intermediate risk group,
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which basically means that there's a you know, a higher
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chance of this not working out well. And he said,
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you know, you've still got about seventy or eighty percent
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chance of being fine. But of course all I could
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think about was the twenty to thirty percent chance, and
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I spent that whole week basically thinking I was going
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to die. I mean that's what I was just thinking.
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Really yeah, And looking back at it now, it's easy
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to kind of be critical of oneself and be sort
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of thinking, yeah, but the surgeon said, you're going to
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have a seventy to thirty percent chance of living and
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making a full recovery.
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But I think.
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That there's a few it's difficult to kind of get
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over the hump of the official prognosis, which literally says
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poor risk, and also that you know, as people sometimes
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certainly used to call it, the big sea, which is
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that there's still this perception that getting cancer is the
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end of everything for people who received that terrible, terrible
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news and putting that in quotes, and so, you know,
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all of these labels that were being put onto my
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diagnosis were all pretty scary labels, even though statistically the
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chances of actually getting through it were quite high.
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Until someone's talked to you about your life like that,
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you haven't gone through every day thinking, ah, today, I
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believe I have a three percent chance of yes, having
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a terminal illness before, like, oh, today is a twelve
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percent and tomorrow is one percent, and it's put into
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numbers like that. Yeah, how argu meant you had to
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deal with so much in one go. I'm not surprised
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you felt like you were in a dream. And it's
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completely natural obviously to be feeling pessimistic and thinking about
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the twenty to thirty percent in that context, Were you
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thinking about things that you hadn't thought about before?
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Yes, I found that there was sort of two sides
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to my mental processing that happened in that that week
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that was obviously quite often interrupted by by lack of sleep,
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and also I had pretty by constipation, and I was
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still using some pain control because of course the pain
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hadn't gone away by this point. The pain I'd been
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experiencing because of what I thought was this infection turned
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out to actually be the tumors pressing up against my organs,
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and that was still happening. Though astonishingly, as a side note,
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the first round of chemo got rid of that pain
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because the tumors shrunk back enough to actually stop the pain,
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which was incredible. But I found that my yeah, I
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found that my mental processing was kind of divised into
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two parts. There was the part which was extremely pessimistic,
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thinking about death all the time actually deciding in the end,
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I just needed to acknowledge, acknowledge it, acknowledge the possibility, yes,
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as a possibility that you might die. I had a
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really interesting conversation with my dad about it, who happens
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to be a retired Anglican vicar. I'm not religious at all,
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but you know, we still had a really useful conversation
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about it. That side of things, and then the other
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side of things was this, and it's gonna sound very
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cliche to say this, but it was this kind of
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if I get through, if I get through this, if
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I get through this. I'm gonna turn my life around.
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I'm gonna do all I'm going to do so many
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things differently. I'm going to get healthier and fitter, and
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I'm gonna go for cime everest clime evers and go
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for walks while I'm going to do walks things that
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are creative, and I'm gonna get back into filmmaking, my
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own personal filmmaking. And that was really quite a serious
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thing that was that was going through and something that
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in a sense kind of gave me the optimism side
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of things. I think, as time has gone on and
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I as to believe that things will get better, I
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think one of the other ways that I've generally tried
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to process things is I found that to start off with,
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I was trying to very actively do a lot of
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positive thinking and adverse to commas, trying to always think
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of the good side of things and actually also how
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lucky I was. What I realized was is it was
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still important to give myself permissioned to think how shit
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things were as well, and actually maybe I should stop
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thinking how lucky I am all the time.
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On some scales, I'm incredibly lucky. You know.
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My side effects of the chemo were as bad as
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they are for many people. I had somewhere I could stay.
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I live alone, so I went and stayed with my
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moum and dad, who are incredible and who looked after
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me basically for three months, which was a whole other
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strange psychological experience, because, as I said to them, it
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felt very weird, you know, seventy two and eighty year
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old parents looking after their forty five year olds, so
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that it just feels like the wrong way around in that
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kind of way. But at times they were literally looking
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after me because I was just able to get out
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of bed. Really, So there's all that stuff that is
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very I am very very lucky about, without a doubt,
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but also on a different scale, I'm not lucky at all.
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No, no, And well done to you for being able
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to grasp onto the things that you're grateful for and
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felt lucky for. But also it's not always helpful psychologically
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to do that, because part of it is kind of
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denying you the reality of the shitness that is like
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that you're actually living through and in, and we know
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that it doesn't work when making constant comparisons to others
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in order to kind of minimize your own problems. You
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just like suddenly had this awful news to deal with,
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like what your body was going through as well. You're
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in the middle of a trauma. You can't process the
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trauma while it's still happening, and you're in the middle
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of it and you can't. It's way too much to
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expect yourself to be able to regulate and reason. That's
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like a whole other layer of stuff that psychologically you
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are expecting yourself to do, and actually you need to
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just be like, oh my god, this is awful. But also, yeah,
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it is hard because you don't want to indulge. It's
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too scary to indulge and fully go down a pit
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as as I guess, you know, because that's what it
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was like at the start. It's a lot to expect
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of yourself to be able to self regulate your emotional
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response to all this stuff going on. That there's no script,
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is there?
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Yeah?
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There being no script is an interesting point actually, because
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I'm somebody who just require quite a lot of certainty.
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I guess very very often in terms of just knowing
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what's what's going to happen next and knowing what the
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script is for any given situation. Certainly a lack of
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that has triggered anxieties in the past, And in this situation,
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you are being put through a process which you don't
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fully understand, and that often you don't know what the
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next step is going to be to arrive at wherever
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is you've been told to go, and then certainly you're
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doing the next part of this process, and it's this
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strange powerlessness where you're just having to just allow yourself
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to be brought into a system and do what you're
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told to do.
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Basically all the time you are the one experiencing it.
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It's your organs and blood system and body and nerve system.
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That is like being probed and drugged and whatever by
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other people who know more about your organs than you do.
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Like you said, like you don't. There is such a
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knowledge imbalance.
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It leaves you feeling a certain degree of powerlessness. But
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at the same time, from a mental health point of view,
283
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usually my anxiety that I have is anxiety because I
284
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feel like I should do something, as in like I
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worry about something, usually usually work related, and the accurate
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anxiety going through my mind is a one of not
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being able to make a decision or feeling like I
288
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can't make a decision about acting on a worry or
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a concern that I have. And this is very different
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because I'm going into a situation where I'm having to
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just basically hand myself over and the anxiety that I'm
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feeling is anxiety about stuff that's happening to me by
293
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people that, as you know, know, form more about my
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internal logans than I do. And so there's actually nothing
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I can do with such, which in one respect is
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quite liberating, right.
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There's not much worrying about what I do next because
298
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I have no control.
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Yeah, exactly, exactly.
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At the same time, you know, the lack of agency
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isn't necessarily a good thing either, And I think that
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a lot of people, a lot of especially more regular
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users of the NHS, would say that a lack of
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agency from patients and that kind of power in balance
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that you've just talked about before is a real problem
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because people feel powerless in making decisions about their own health.
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So I guess that's another balancing act. And I guess
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the other thing to add to that is that I've
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debated in my head risk benefit analysis, if you like,
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on the one hand, buying into that ignorance and that
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powerlessness and being like, well, you know, in a sense, yeah,
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my powerlessness is because of my ignorance compared to actually
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researching what it is that they're doing and finding out
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as much as I possibly can about what it is
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that they're doing in terms of my treatment. And I
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found myself, generally as time has gone on, ewing much
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much more towards finding out about it and researching it,
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and doing so in probably a slightly obsessive way where
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I've been fortunately or unfortunately because it's not always bad,
320
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but I've been using AI just like I mean, I'm
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just I've just been blasting the AI with questions. I've
322
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got an entire thread of hundreds and hundreds and hundreds
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of prompts long, all about testicular cancer and all of
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the various things linked to that. And so when I
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got told by my consultant a couple of weeks ago
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that I was going to require this thing called RPLND surgery,
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I already knew that that was highly likely because of
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all the reading that I'd done. And that is the
329
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sort of next big hurd life to get over, is
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this big operation is going to be happening in the
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next couple of weeks. But part of me thinks, from
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a mental well being point of view, would I have
333
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been better off not looking into it and then just
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being a bit flawed by that conversation with the consultant,
335
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Or would I have been better being prepared, But nevertheless,
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therefore ruminating about it a lot for weeks and weeks
337
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and weeks and weeks beforehand.
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Which do you think I think I was?
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For me, I was better off doing the research.
340
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And I'm saying that very cautiously because I know that
341
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that can be a really dangerous rabbit hole for people,
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especially if they have anxiety problems and have this habit
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of doom scrolling and all the.
344
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Rest of it.
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Actually, as it happens, I learned about the possibility of
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this major surgery being needed, not from AI or from
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Internet or Google or anything. I actually found it out
348
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from a cancer information booklet, So you know, I found.
349
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If the approved knowledge tools exactly I.
350
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Prove knowledge tool told me about it. So I decided
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quite early on that I was going to try and
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own it. And interesting this goes back to our conversation
353
00:18:09.039 --> 00:18:12.000
just a few moments ago about agent self agency. Actually,
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by learning about it, and by just understanding as much
355
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as possible about it as I can, I would be
356
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able to take ownership of the possibility of this happening.
357
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And then when a consultant told me it was going
358
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to be necessary, that I would feel a bit more
359
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in control, you know. And I think I do feel
360
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a bit more controlled as a result. But at the
361
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same time, as I said before, I'm not sure whether
362
00:18:35.920 --> 00:18:40.440
that means that I always looked into RPLND and all
363
00:18:40.440 --> 00:18:43.559
the stuff around that in a way that was always healthy.
364
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I think that sometimes it went down rabbit holes that
365
00:18:46.799 --> 00:18:48.319
shouldn't have and it caused a.
366
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Lot of anxiety.
367
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And also I'd also say that I totally get that
368
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a lot of people in my situation wouldn't have the
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time or the know how to be able to find
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out these things about what was going to be happening
371
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to them. And so I guess that also begs the
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question about what information should be getting shared with people
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at different stages of the of the processes.
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I think that is like such a huge part of
375
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the problem of the kind of power imbalance within the
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hospital or clinic setting, because understandably a consultant or the
377
00:19:23.480 --> 00:19:26.559
professional with the so much just the knowledge, but the
378
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power to act on to treat or whatever. You know,
379
00:19:30.759 --> 00:19:34.519
you can imagine why they wouldn't want to offload loads
380
00:19:34.519 --> 00:19:37.400
of knowledge onto you of all these potential things that
381
00:19:37.440 --> 00:19:39.400
could happen, because some of them might not happen. And
382
00:19:39.440 --> 00:19:43.079
you can see how someone might think that that's a
383
00:19:43.160 --> 00:19:44.960
kind thing to do, is to not tell you about
384
00:19:45.000 --> 00:19:49.480
all of these potential hypothetical things. But it seems a
385
00:19:49.480 --> 00:19:51.279
lot of the time like they've not worked out and
386
00:19:51.319 --> 00:19:55.160
in between, and there's I don't know how you found it,
387
00:19:55.200 --> 00:19:59.200
but I feel like they forget that you don't know
388
00:19:59.279 --> 00:20:02.240
what they no and that you have no context. And
389
00:20:02.279 --> 00:20:05.480
it's a bit like, if you haven't explained this something
390
00:20:05.480 --> 00:20:08.119
to me in Layman's terms, I probably don't know what
391
00:20:08.240 --> 00:20:11.799
you're talking about. And there's not there doesn't seem to
392
00:20:11.799 --> 00:20:15.000
be an appropriate amount of effort put into, you know,
393
00:20:15.400 --> 00:20:19.960
empowering people with knowledge and understand Like there's such a
394
00:20:20.039 --> 00:20:23.440
huge gap that it's like either yeah, you have to
395
00:20:23.480 --> 00:20:26.000
go down your own rabbit hole or you just have
396
00:20:26.079 --> 00:20:28.759
to listen to what the doctor says and not understand
397
00:20:28.799 --> 00:20:29.319
any of it.
398
00:20:29.720 --> 00:20:32.119
And I think that what he said at the beginning
399
00:20:32.200 --> 00:20:34.920
about the medics not wanting to bombard you and overwhelm
400
00:20:34.920 --> 00:20:38.240
me with information. I do think that is often a
401
00:20:38.359 --> 00:20:41.839
reason why information is held back. And when I was
402
00:20:42.000 --> 00:20:44.599
first called into the hospital, sitting on my bed waiting
403
00:20:44.640 --> 00:20:48.000
to get in it, the Consultan derives and he takes
404
00:20:48.039 --> 00:20:49.480
me through everything that's going to happen. In terms of
405
00:20:49.480 --> 00:20:51.920
the chemo, it's going to be twelve weeks of chemo,
406
00:20:52.319 --> 00:20:56.799
four times three week cycles back to back, each cycle
407
00:20:56.920 --> 00:21:00.799
beginning with five days of intensive chemo. Further chemo therapy
408
00:21:00.880 --> 00:21:03.319
is on days eight and fifteen of those cycles. For
409
00:21:03.400 --> 00:21:06.279
people listening who have experienced of testicular cancers or fine,
410
00:21:06.359 --> 00:21:09.440
so I'm very familiar. It's called the BEP regime and
411
00:21:09.480 --> 00:21:13.839
it's amongst the most intense chemo therapeutic regimes there are
412
00:21:13.880 --> 00:21:16.759
out there. He didn't mention the possibility of our PLD.
413
00:21:17.799 --> 00:21:19.440
This is the major surgery and not having to have
414
00:21:20.000 --> 00:21:22.839
and I can completely understand why he didn't.
415
00:21:23.039 --> 00:21:26.279
At that stage. Yeah, you're introducing a lot of new
416
00:21:26.319 --> 00:21:31.519
things to some unsuspecting person exactly, especially in your scenarios
417
00:21:32.119 --> 00:21:34.680
from now here and I have advanced cancer and I'm
418
00:21:34.680 --> 00:21:37.480
about to start chemo. I can see why you're not
419
00:21:37.559 --> 00:21:40.440
like thinking you're just trying to prepare them for the
420
00:21:40.480 --> 00:21:41.400
next six weeks.
421
00:21:42.200 --> 00:21:46.160
Yeah, exactly, it's information staging. And I guess the question
422
00:21:46.200 --> 00:21:50.240
then becomes, at what point, at what stage is further
423
00:21:50.279 --> 00:21:55.240
information about what could happen compared to what's definitely going
424
00:21:55.319 --> 00:21:59.279
to happen, Like what points should those be introduced and
425
00:21:59.359 --> 00:22:03.119
explain to the in ways that they can understand and
426
00:22:03.160 --> 00:22:08.480
that they could potentially have some level of control over it.
427
00:22:08.559 --> 00:22:09.839
And I guess the thing is, there isn't really a
428
00:22:09.960 --> 00:22:12.039
right answer, because what the answer might be in your
429
00:22:12.079 --> 00:22:14.279
case might be completely different for someone else who might
430
00:22:14.319 --> 00:22:17.559
actually really prefer not to be given any information that
431
00:22:17.559 --> 00:22:21.480
they don't really need for what is immediately happening on
432
00:22:21.519 --> 00:22:25.079
the grounds that that will produce more anxiety. There is
433
00:22:25.119 --> 00:22:28.359
also a limit to how much person centered decision making
434
00:22:28.400 --> 00:22:30.680
can be made on their part of sharing knowledge because
435
00:22:30.680 --> 00:22:31.440
they've just met you.
436
00:22:36.079 --> 00:22:38.880
And I guess that takes us on to these questions
437
00:22:38.880 --> 00:22:43.039
then about the health service, And well, I think there's
438
00:22:43.119 --> 00:22:47.559
two things that I've really noticed from my experience of
439
00:22:48.079 --> 00:22:51.799
having been admitted to hospital and also being an outpatient
440
00:22:51.960 --> 00:22:55.480
now for several months, which is that, first of all,
441
00:22:56.400 --> 00:23:02.480
I'm very conscious, well of all, before we went on air,
442
00:23:02.559 --> 00:23:05.640
we were talking about how and this would be particularly
443
00:23:05.680 --> 00:23:10.039
I guess interesting for non UK listeners is that in
444
00:23:10.079 --> 00:23:13.440
the UK, the NHS, it's often considered to be quite
445
00:23:13.440 --> 00:23:17.599
a hallowed institution. It's something which gets talked about as
446
00:23:17.680 --> 00:23:22.960
being something of huge national pride and something that we
447
00:23:23.119 --> 00:23:25.279
should be incredibly proud of, and of course all those
448
00:23:25.279 --> 00:23:28.720
things are absolutely true in my case and still are
449
00:23:29.079 --> 00:23:32.920
true following the experiences I've had. At the same time, however,
450
00:23:33.599 --> 00:23:37.039
there's absolutely no reason why we can't talk about the
451
00:23:37.119 --> 00:23:38.839
NHS in terms of what should be improved.
452
00:23:38.839 --> 00:23:40.440
Because whilst we can be very grateful for.
453
00:23:40.400 --> 00:23:44.079
Having a public health service or socialized health care, as
454
00:23:44.079 --> 00:23:46.039
I believe that it gets called in the States, and
455
00:23:46.079 --> 00:23:48.039
for the record, that is an incredible thing and there
456
00:23:48.079 --> 00:23:50.960
are incredible people who work in it, there are also
457
00:23:51.799 --> 00:23:54.079
lots and lots of problems with it, well, huge problems
458
00:23:54.359 --> 00:23:57.559
with our health service, and that sometimes we can feel
459
00:23:57.599 --> 00:24:01.839
reticent about making those sort of comments. You know, I
460
00:24:01.920 --> 00:24:04.920
heard once somebody on the radio actually saying something quite funny.
461
00:24:04.960 --> 00:24:09.319
I thought British radio station. So it was just after Madonna.
462
00:24:09.400 --> 00:24:11.880
I think it was had to come on to American
463
00:24:11.960 --> 00:24:15.920
radio criticizing our NHS, saying it was all old Victorian
464
00:24:15.960 --> 00:24:18.680
buildings falling into bits, and Twitter, which was still quite
465
00:24:18.680 --> 00:24:21.359
in its early days at that point, it was a bit. Yeah,
466
00:24:21.400 --> 00:24:23.680
it was something along those lines. And Twitter, which was
467
00:24:23.720 --> 00:24:27.400
still quite in its early days, broke because somebody Brits
468
00:24:27.480 --> 00:24:30.920
came on to Twitter defending the NHS, and somebody on
469
00:24:30.960 --> 00:24:34.119
the radio said, yeah, because in NHS it's an institution
470
00:24:34.240 --> 00:24:36.000
that we the British, we were allowed to criticize it
471
00:24:36.039 --> 00:24:38.359
as much as we bloody were like, but nobody else
472
00:24:38.359 --> 00:24:40.599
the moment anybody else criticizes it, we're going to be
473
00:24:40.680 --> 00:24:43.480
defending it to the hilt. Yeah, yeah, And I think
474
00:24:43.519 --> 00:24:45.720
there's a lot of truth in that. I think is
475
00:24:45.759 --> 00:24:49.319
that it's ours and it's got many many faults. But
476
00:24:49.759 --> 00:24:52.279
as you said when we were off air, as a concept,
477
00:24:52.319 --> 00:24:54.279
as an idea, as a principle.
478
00:24:54.400 --> 00:24:58.400
It's great. It's just that an actis it can Yeah.
479
00:24:58.440 --> 00:25:02.039
And I do feel quite strongly about this that there's
480
00:25:02.039 --> 00:25:05.480
a very toxic element to the attitude of no, you
481
00:25:05.480 --> 00:25:07.920
can't see anything bad about the NHS. It's so great.
482
00:25:08.000 --> 00:25:10.240
We have to be permanently grateful and da da da da.
483
00:25:10.440 --> 00:25:16.359
I'm like no like that knowingly or unknowingly is used
484
00:25:16.359 --> 00:25:20.720
as a political tool to move past the fact that
485
00:25:20.759 --> 00:25:25.000
the government is breaking it slowly and painfully in ways
486
00:25:25.039 --> 00:25:27.599
that mean it is that loads of aspects of it
487
00:25:27.640 --> 00:25:30.519
are causing harm and damage to both the people that
488
00:25:30.599 --> 00:25:35.400
work in it and patience. And if this like toxic
489
00:25:35.480 --> 00:25:40.200
positivity that's associated with the NHS a lot of the time,
490
00:25:40.960 --> 00:25:45.160
it also denies people's lived experience and harm. Obviously, I've
491
00:25:45.160 --> 00:25:47.640
had some amazing experiences in the NHS, but I've also
492
00:25:48.240 --> 00:25:51.319
been treated some of the worst ways that I've ever
493
00:25:51.359 --> 00:25:56.319
been treated in the NHS. And to have those experiences
494
00:25:57.400 --> 00:25:59.119
like oh, you have to be grateful, be like, no,
495
00:25:59.240 --> 00:26:01.359
my bloody don't. That was awful. I was not treated
496
00:26:01.400 --> 00:26:06.359
like a human. That was completely traumatic, and I think
497
00:26:06.440 --> 00:26:08.759
to be I don't know if you have noticed the difference,
498
00:26:08.799 --> 00:26:12.440
but I feel like in recent years, I do hear
499
00:26:12.519 --> 00:26:15.880
that denial of anything bad associated to the unit says.
500
00:26:16.000 --> 00:26:18.599
I do feel like that's happening less because it's now
501
00:26:18.680 --> 00:26:22.880
so broken that people who don't require the NHS for
502
00:26:23.960 --> 00:26:27.920
an ongoing condition management or surgery or something are now
503
00:26:27.960 --> 00:26:31.440
experiencing it directly, not working with whole like people not
504
00:26:31.480 --> 00:26:34.480
being able to book GP appointments, not having a name
505
00:26:34.599 --> 00:26:37.640
GP anymore. You can only book an appointment by going online,
506
00:26:37.680 --> 00:26:39.519
and they aren't any for six weeks, you know, all
507
00:26:39.559 --> 00:26:43.319
of that sort of stuff. It could be the best
508
00:26:43.759 --> 00:26:47.039
thing in the entire world, and it is as a concept,
509
00:26:47.680 --> 00:26:51.480
but I just feel like it's being bludgeoned and that hurts,
510
00:26:52.400 --> 00:26:56.160
you know, everyone working in it and everyone relying on it.
511
00:26:56.240 --> 00:27:00.839
So I think the two sort of headline observations I
512
00:27:01.000 --> 00:27:06.039
made about my NHS care from a mental health perspective.
513
00:27:06.279 --> 00:27:12.000
The first would be it was very noticeable how there
514
00:27:12.079 --> 00:27:18.519
was never any conversation about mental health support for processing, yeah,
515
00:27:19.240 --> 00:27:24.000
the receiving a diagnosis of advanced particular cancer. I assume
516
00:27:24.079 --> 00:27:26.519
my experience is typical and that that's just not a
517
00:27:26.599 --> 00:27:29.200
un thing. Have you ever been offered any kind of
518
00:27:29.240 --> 00:27:33.440
counseling support once? And that was specifically around processing a
519
00:27:33.440 --> 00:27:34.759
physical diagnosis?
520
00:27:35.279 --> 00:27:40.559
Mm, it was basically once I was offered to be
521
00:27:40.680 --> 00:27:45.440
referred to the women's health psychotherapist within the women's health
522
00:27:46.079 --> 00:27:50.920
department of a hospital. That's the only time, and having
523
00:27:51.039 --> 00:27:54.960
been a many different women's health departments in different hospitals since,
524
00:27:55.319 --> 00:27:57.759
it's never happened again, and I think that must have
525
00:27:57.799 --> 00:28:00.000
been a fluke because they happened to have a non
526
00:28:00.119 --> 00:28:04.680
site health focused psychotherapist, but to deal with diagnosis no.
527
00:28:04.799 --> 00:28:08.000
And I've also never had a sort of sudden diagnosis
528
00:28:08.039 --> 00:28:10.720
like the one that you had at all, So I
529
00:28:10.799 --> 00:28:14.519
found that surprising because whenever I'm in the hospital, like
530
00:28:14.759 --> 00:28:16.839
is it Manchester, one of the ones in me has
531
00:28:16.839 --> 00:28:19.680
a whole room with two members of staff in it.
532
00:28:20.319 --> 00:28:24.759
That's just like support, information and services and all these
533
00:28:24.880 --> 00:28:28.240
things that you can get if you have cancer. So
534
00:28:28.960 --> 00:28:31.400
my perspective, if I had to guess, was that you
535
00:28:31.559 --> 00:28:34.839
actually are more likely to be offered some form of
536
00:28:34.839 --> 00:28:37.440
mental health support if you're in your position, for example,
537
00:28:37.480 --> 00:28:40.279
given a sudden, quite devastating diagnosis.
538
00:28:40.680 --> 00:28:43.519
So I guess, just to add a clarification, there was
539
00:28:44.519 --> 00:28:50.319
psychological support available, but that was provided entirely by other agencies.
540
00:28:50.359 --> 00:28:53.839
So we have a Maggie's Center, which is the well
541
00:28:53.880 --> 00:28:57.440
known national charity here cancer charity. Their Dia center is
542
00:28:57.519 --> 00:29:01.759
right next door and they have trained specialist nurses who
543
00:29:01.799 --> 00:29:06.400
also can act as counselors to people who have just
544
00:29:06.640 --> 00:29:09.599
received a cancer diagnosis. There's also the mac Millan Center
545
00:29:09.799 --> 00:29:11.599
within the hospital as well, but.
546
00:29:11.559 --> 00:29:14.519
Where you offered those I was told about straight away.
547
00:29:15.519 --> 00:29:16.720
I was told about them.
548
00:29:17.000 --> 00:29:19.920
I guess what I find interesting is that there was
549
00:29:20.160 --> 00:29:24.359
nothing in house. There's no kind of NHS provision for
550
00:29:25.160 --> 00:29:28.200
psychological support. And I mean, don't get me wrong, doesn't
551
00:29:28.200 --> 00:29:30.000
surprise me at all that that wasn't in a sense
552
00:29:30.039 --> 00:29:33.480
I wouldn't necessarily expected there to be, because I know
553
00:29:33.839 --> 00:29:38.359
how chronically underfunded mental health is in this country. And
554
00:29:38.920 --> 00:29:40.960
obviously the nurses and all the staff on the war
555
00:29:41.079 --> 00:29:44.039
don't have time for mental health support because it takes
556
00:29:44.039 --> 00:29:49.119
time and patience and attention. And if you're working on
557
00:29:49.119 --> 00:29:52.640
a busy cancer wards and you're wushing around responding to
558
00:29:52.720 --> 00:29:56.920
the various beeping machines, the beeping, the endless beeping, my words,
559
00:29:57.759 --> 00:30:00.200
you know, then of course there's no time for any
560
00:30:00.240 --> 00:30:02.359
of that. And I think it's really important. It's really
561
00:30:02.400 --> 00:30:04.440
good that the services out there, like Macmillan and like
562
00:30:04.519 --> 00:30:09.599
Maggie's amazing. I do wonder whether, yeah, I just wonder.
563
00:30:09.640 --> 00:30:13.720
I'm asking the question is they're not a stature Saturtrey
564
00:30:13.799 --> 00:30:16.000
is probably too strong a word, but a role actually
565
00:30:16.039 --> 00:30:19.480
within the NHS, which is about saying, actually, somebody who's
566
00:30:19.519 --> 00:30:21.599
on the walls, because if the other challenge, of course,
567
00:30:21.680 --> 00:30:24.960
with the outsourced with outsources the wrong word as well.
568
00:30:25.480 --> 00:30:28.920
The other the challenge with those kinds of support services
569
00:30:28.960 --> 00:30:32.079
being offered by Maggie's and by Macmillan is that if
570
00:30:32.079 --> 00:30:35.240
you are an impatient, that's a bit more tricky. If
571
00:30:35.240 --> 00:30:37.960
you're an outpatient, that's that's a much easier. If you
572
00:30:38.039 --> 00:30:40.039
actually are literally ricked to a machine twenty four hours
573
00:30:40.039 --> 00:30:42.400
a day, as I was for the first seven days,
574
00:30:42.559 --> 00:30:45.559
well the first six days, you can't just go off
575
00:30:45.599 --> 00:30:48.640
site to look even though Maggie's was literally across the
576
00:30:48.720 --> 00:30:49.640
road from where I was.
577
00:30:50.240 --> 00:30:50.640
You can't.
578
00:30:50.680 --> 00:30:52.160
You can't do you're wandering around.
579
00:30:52.359 --> 00:30:54.200
You can't be wondering around with you with your machine
580
00:30:54.279 --> 00:30:55.240
and you and your trolley.
581
00:30:55.359 --> 00:30:58.319
Were there any people to visit people on the ward?
582
00:30:58.960 --> 00:31:02.759
There was a visit by the Newcastle Hospital's charity, which
583
00:31:02.799 --> 00:31:05.119
is different again, and they came to talk to me
584
00:31:05.160 --> 00:31:08.960
about complementary therapies, so not so much counseling, but more
585
00:31:09.000 --> 00:31:13.960
things like the lexology, massage and mindfulness that sort of thing.
586
00:31:14.079 --> 00:31:15.599
And actually I did take them up on their offer
587
00:31:15.640 --> 00:31:18.440
and I did have a few eflectology sessions and they.
588
00:31:18.319 --> 00:31:21.000
Were great, They were really great. I don't I'm not
589
00:31:21.079 --> 00:31:21.640
into all.
590
00:31:21.559 --> 00:31:24.839
Of the so called science behind it, if it is
591
00:31:24.960 --> 00:31:27.640
even science. I just think it's really relaxing. I mean
592
00:31:27.680 --> 00:31:29.480
it's a no brainer, isn't it. If someone the massage
593
00:31:29.480 --> 00:31:31.880
your feet, that's going to be a relaxing experience.
594
00:31:33.400 --> 00:31:35.759
When the rest of your body is like waging war
595
00:31:35.799 --> 00:31:36.559
against itself.
596
00:31:36.640 --> 00:31:39.359
Yes, yeah, yeah, completely.
597
00:31:39.960 --> 00:31:43.119
The second observation I'd make is just one about communication,
598
00:31:43.200 --> 00:31:46.759
communication and how important it is in these situations. And
599
00:31:47.000 --> 00:31:49.240
I'd be interested to hear from listeners actually, especially if
600
00:31:49.240 --> 00:31:52.319
you live in different countries, what your experience of health
601
00:31:52.359 --> 00:31:57.319
care information and communication is health care providers, I.
602
00:31:57.240 --> 00:32:00.799
Mean like appointment letters and lets, the way that you're
603
00:32:01.200 --> 00:32:04.400
like sort of officially told about what's going on exactly.
604
00:32:04.519 --> 00:32:07.799
Yeah, just how the lines of communication work. Because and
605
00:32:07.839 --> 00:32:09.640
this link send directly to what we were talking about
606
00:32:09.640 --> 00:32:13.599
before about the staging of information and about whether receiving
607
00:32:13.640 --> 00:32:17.000
information about what could happen or what is happening. What
608
00:32:17.039 --> 00:32:19.799
we know is happening is something which can be overwhelming
609
00:32:19.799 --> 00:32:21.799
and something that's better to not have any knowledge of
610
00:32:22.400 --> 00:32:24.359
or to be surprised about when it does happened, rather
611
00:32:24.440 --> 00:32:26.799
than be told it might happen and ruminate about it
612
00:32:26.920 --> 00:32:29.599
in the run up to finding out for sure. I
613
00:32:29.640 --> 00:32:32.039
think there is a lot there's a lot of work
614
00:32:32.079 --> 00:32:34.880
still to do, I think in the area of how
615
00:32:35.440 --> 00:32:38.240
the NHS communicates with its patients. An example would be
616
00:32:39.079 --> 00:32:42.480
I keep on getting told I've got appointments for things,
617
00:32:43.079 --> 00:32:46.359
and yet I don't get told what it's full, Like, yeah,
618
00:32:46.400 --> 00:32:49.039
it's just you have an appointment at X on Y
619
00:32:49.160 --> 00:32:52.519
at this time, be there. And I just thought to myself,
620
00:32:52.720 --> 00:32:55.000
just one, just one little bit of a sentence, just
621
00:32:55.039 --> 00:32:58.160
one sentence saying this is to dot dot dot. Yeah,
622
00:32:58.240 --> 00:33:01.039
just be really useful in terms of just feeling again
623
00:33:01.160 --> 00:33:03.519
like you've got some control over it.
624
00:33:03.559 --> 00:33:07.079
Even if it's just like a generic sentence from their
625
00:33:07.119 --> 00:33:10.640
own automated system, but that at least is an extra
626
00:33:10.720 --> 00:33:14.960
sentence explaining what clinic exactly it is or why the
627
00:33:15.000 --> 00:33:16.519
appointment is happening.
628
00:33:16.200 --> 00:33:18.720
Like anything, Yeah, yeah, definite.
629
00:33:19.000 --> 00:33:21.359
And it's so what I find so frustrating is it
630
00:33:21.599 --> 00:33:25.000
must waste so much of its own resources because the
631
00:33:25.039 --> 00:33:27.359
amount of times I've like have to phone and be like,
632
00:33:28.119 --> 00:33:29.960
I've just got this letter. Is it a mistake or
633
00:33:30.000 --> 00:33:32.440
do I have an appointment who's it with? What's it for?
634
00:33:33.119 --> 00:33:36.799
I already had an appointment? Do I do? I like
635
00:33:37.200 --> 00:33:41.000
the amount of extra admint it must create to not
636
00:33:41.079 --> 00:33:43.400
be clear with people. And sometimes I don't know if
637
00:33:43.440 --> 00:33:46.160
you heard this, but I well, I've had horrendous problems
638
00:33:46.160 --> 00:33:49.279
before with letters not arriving. But then I've also had
639
00:33:49.279 --> 00:33:52.240
it when like four letters have arrived and they say
640
00:33:52.279 --> 00:33:54.400
exactly the same thing, but they have a slightly different
641
00:33:54.440 --> 00:33:57.039
respience number on the top. Then I'm like, well, do
642
00:33:57.079 --> 00:33:59.440
I have four appointments or do I just have one appointment?
643
00:33:59.480 --> 00:34:02.400
And the systems had a hiccup and I don't know.
644
00:34:02.680 --> 00:34:07.880
Notwithstanding the so we've already talked about about when's information
645
00:34:07.960 --> 00:34:11.519
too much information? So for example, if the letter said
646
00:34:11.519 --> 00:34:14.159
this is to dot dot dot and the dot dot
647
00:34:14.199 --> 00:34:19.239
dot was, for example, something that I hadn't known about before,
648
00:34:20.159 --> 00:34:23.920
that was potentially flagging a new problem that I wasn't
649
00:34:23.960 --> 00:34:27.800
even aware of that could do more harm than good.
650
00:34:28.159 --> 00:34:32.000
Yeah, and again I can see the logic behind making
651
00:34:32.039 --> 00:34:35.880
a decision not to add that type of information in
652
00:34:35.920 --> 00:34:39.119
a letter. I can see why you would not do that,
653
00:34:39.880 --> 00:34:43.679
But again, why is this just so little attention paid
654
00:34:43.719 --> 00:34:47.320
to the in between that can happen. Yeah, like disappointments
655
00:34:47.360 --> 00:34:51.719
with a owncologist, to discuss, you know, the results something
656
00:34:51.840 --> 00:34:58.679
just bland, like to discuss your treatment, to discuss the
657
00:34:58.719 --> 00:35:00.599
results from the like what for it is?
658
00:35:01.000 --> 00:35:03.440
So I mean to finish off, there's just a couple
659
00:35:03.480 --> 00:35:06.760
of other thoughts I wanted just to mention. I think
660
00:35:06.760 --> 00:35:08.760
this has been really interesting conversation earlier. I think that
661
00:35:09.400 --> 00:35:15.000
the conversation about balancing trying to be positive mentally with
662
00:35:15.559 --> 00:35:21.320
just allowing yourself to not be and to actually acknowledge
663
00:35:21.719 --> 00:35:25.159
how bad a situation is and not having to feel
664
00:35:25.159 --> 00:35:28.599
like you have to hide that, particularly from yourself, never
665
00:35:28.639 --> 00:35:33.119
mind other people, is a really interesting question. I think
666
00:35:33.440 --> 00:35:37.719
for me now, as I'm heading towards this major operation,
667
00:35:37.800 --> 00:35:39.719
and it will be a major operation. It's going to
668
00:35:39.760 --> 00:35:41.159
be open surgery, and I'm going to be under for
669
00:35:41.239 --> 00:35:44.079
quite a long time. As we were talking about before
670
00:35:44.079 --> 00:35:46.920
we went on air, I've never ever been under before.
671
00:35:46.960 --> 00:35:50.920
I've never had general anesthetic before. And linking into what
672
00:35:50.920 --> 00:35:53.400
we're saying before, the way I've found myself dealing with
673
00:35:53.440 --> 00:35:59.119
that is to go, it's really scary, and that's okay, Yeah, it's.
674
00:35:58.960 --> 00:36:01.280
Okay that it's really scared because it is scary.
675
00:36:01.360 --> 00:36:03.079
Yeah, And even though I was saying to you my
676
00:36:03.280 --> 00:36:05.760
unhelpful view, which is like, oh, yeah, absolutely love it,
677
00:36:06.079 --> 00:36:07.920
love going under an as that's it, because I do.
678
00:36:08.599 --> 00:36:11.000
Of course, our audience weren't there to hear this, but yes,
679
00:36:13.199 --> 00:36:15.840
Ellie was waxing lyrical about the joys of general.
680
00:36:16.719 --> 00:36:18.920
Yeah, I was like, I absolutely love it. But I
681
00:36:19.679 --> 00:36:23.880
do remember that I was terrified the first few times
682
00:36:23.880 --> 00:36:26.719
that I had it, because it's such an unnatural thing
683
00:36:26.760 --> 00:36:28.639
to do. It's like we're going to put you asleep,
684
00:36:28.800 --> 00:36:30.679
but not You're not really asleep, like you're not going
685
00:36:30.760 --> 00:36:32.840
to dream. You're just sort of like you're a rope.
686
00:36:32.840 --> 00:36:34.239
It's like we're gonna turn you off for a bit,
687
00:36:34.880 --> 00:36:38.159
and you're like, what, how is that fine?
688
00:36:38.599 --> 00:36:38.840
Yeah?
689
00:36:38.880 --> 00:36:41.840
That sounds like immensely not fine, but it is.
690
00:36:42.239 --> 00:36:45.039
And then on the other hand, sort of thinking more positively,
691
00:36:45.159 --> 00:36:47.239
you know, I know I was being slightly facetious when
692
00:36:47.239 --> 00:36:49.719
I was talking about how I was in that first
693
00:36:49.760 --> 00:36:53.199
week and how I balanced the dark thoughts with thoughts
694
00:36:53.199 --> 00:36:55.280
of how I was going to transform myself afterwards and
695
00:36:55.320 --> 00:36:58.079
live a better life than I had before. I do
696
00:36:58.159 --> 00:37:02.079
think there is something in in having an attitude of
697
00:37:03.199 --> 00:37:07.119
looking at this as a transitional point where I can
698
00:37:07.159 --> 00:37:11.400
think about my life differently afterwards. Of course, the extent
699
00:37:11.400 --> 00:37:14.400
of which that's possible is dependent upon so many different
700
00:37:14.440 --> 00:37:18.000
factors and also is very dependent upon one's own life
701
00:37:18.000 --> 00:37:20.639
circumstances and so many other things.
702
00:37:20.719 --> 00:37:22.960
But I think there was some potential in that, and
703
00:37:23.039 --> 00:37:23.599
I think.
704
00:37:24.079 --> 00:37:29.719
Overall being admitted to hospital and it all happening so
705
00:37:29.760 --> 00:37:34.960
suddenly there was definitely a traumatic experience and a huge shock.
706
00:37:35.519 --> 00:37:37.440
I think in my case, I want to be careful
707
00:37:38.239 --> 00:37:44.960
to distinguish that from being traumatized, because I think what.
708
00:37:44.960 --> 00:37:46.440
I don't want to do is.
709
00:37:47.960 --> 00:37:51.480
Define it too much through the lens of trauma in
710
00:37:51.559 --> 00:37:54.320
such a way that it has the risk of becoming
711
00:37:54.480 --> 00:37:58.400
almost self fulfilling. And I mean, I realized that this
712
00:37:58.480 --> 00:38:02.000
is an entirely separate podcast conversation actually, because we have
713
00:38:02.119 --> 00:38:05.519
touched on trauma quite a few times in previous conversations.
714
00:38:05.920 --> 00:38:11.400
But yeah, I just feel like, who knows, I guess
715
00:38:11.599 --> 00:38:13.639
what will what will happen in terms of what my
716
00:38:14.440 --> 00:38:17.000
trauma response, if I do have a trauma response, will be.
717
00:38:17.000 --> 00:38:19.719
I've heard of people, for example, who've been through similar
718
00:38:19.719 --> 00:38:21.639
experiences to me, and they've been fine. For like a
719
00:38:21.719 --> 00:38:25.639
year and then suddenly boom, it just hits them, and
720
00:38:25.679 --> 00:38:27.280
so who knows what's going to happen.
721
00:38:27.599 --> 00:38:31.039
And that might happen, and that's okay because what has happened,
722
00:38:31.199 --> 00:38:34.400
regardless of how you frame it, is an event with
723
00:38:34.440 --> 00:38:38.280
a big capital E. So like very suddenly, your life
724
00:38:38.280 --> 00:38:40.840
as you know it and your sense of reality and
725
00:38:41.239 --> 00:38:46.000
expectations of what you're doing tomorrow, everything was ruptured really
726
00:38:46.079 --> 00:38:49.920
violently in one go, and you have to you're then
727
00:38:50.079 --> 00:38:53.480
just left with this complete rupture in your existence and
728
00:38:53.559 --> 00:38:58.400
way of life and actually just putting together, putting any
729
00:38:58.760 --> 00:39:04.159
the materiality of like life, the future, work, health, your body, everything,
730
00:39:04.360 --> 00:39:06.880
just trying to just even put that all back together
731
00:39:07.679 --> 00:39:12.639
is a massive undertaking. So it is huge. Regardless of
732
00:39:12.679 --> 00:39:14.639
whether you see it through a trauma lens or not.
733
00:39:14.760 --> 00:39:20.400
You've had a massive rupture and it's a difficult things.
734
00:39:20.440 --> 00:39:22.880
You sort of like coming back to a new reality
735
00:39:23.199 --> 00:39:25.719
where you have to sort of interpret things a bit differently.
736
00:39:25.840 --> 00:39:27.639
You see things a bit differently now because you've gone
737
00:39:27.639 --> 00:39:30.960
through this experience and you know you can't take certain
738
00:39:31.000 --> 00:39:34.320
things for granted if you did before, all those sorts
739
00:39:34.360 --> 00:39:36.559
of things, and that's actually such a huge undertaking that
740
00:39:36.960 --> 00:39:41.760
it's okay to not also require yourself to be the
741
00:39:41.800 --> 00:39:45.960
good patient using inverted quotations and like come out of
742
00:39:46.039 --> 00:39:48.639
such an experience with some kind of yeah and climb
743
00:39:48.639 --> 00:39:53.360
a mountain or whatever other you know thing. Like when
744
00:39:53.360 --> 00:39:54.679
you said you were going back to work, I was like,
745
00:39:54.719 --> 00:39:58.920
oh my god, wow, that's so great. Like that felt huge.
746
00:40:00.199 --> 00:40:02.519
It felt huge for you, but it did.
747
00:40:02.360 --> 00:40:03.679
And it felt good to be back.
748
00:40:04.000 --> 00:40:08.280
And colleagues and core directors and all the stuff have
749
00:40:08.320 --> 00:40:13.320
been extremely understanding and accommodating. And of course that links
750
00:40:13.360 --> 00:40:15.880
in very much with how important it is that when
751
00:40:15.920 --> 00:40:22.320
somebody goes through such a physically demanding experience, that other
752
00:40:22.320 --> 00:40:24.559
people in their lives or the organizations and their lives
753
00:40:24.920 --> 00:40:29.000
can actually think to ask what they can do differently
754
00:40:29.159 --> 00:40:30.480
and what they can do to help.
755
00:40:31.159 --> 00:40:34.679
Yeah, And the hard thing of coming back to work
756
00:40:34.760 --> 00:40:37.800
is that you've had this massive rupture. No one else
757
00:40:37.840 --> 00:40:40.239
has that they've not had the rupture that you've had.
758
00:40:40.639 --> 00:40:43.280
They're carrying on as normal. I don't know if you
759
00:40:43.320 --> 00:40:45.320
felt this, but I was feel a bit alienating when
760
00:40:45.360 --> 00:40:48.880
I'm first like reintroducing myself to society after a big
761
00:40:48.920 --> 00:40:51.800
health thing, because I'm like Wow, does everyone know that,
762
00:40:51.880 --> 00:40:54.400
I like see everything completely differently now.
763
00:40:54.880 --> 00:40:56.079
It's a really interesting point.
764
00:40:56.280 --> 00:40:59.280
There's something not necessarily specifically around work, but certainly with
765
00:40:59.400 --> 00:41:00.880
the world in general.
766
00:41:01.119 --> 00:41:01.360
Yeah.
767
00:41:02.039 --> 00:41:04.960
Yeah, I think I remember when I when I came
768
00:41:04.960 --> 00:41:07.599
out of hospital after the first week, just even just
769
00:41:07.639 --> 00:41:10.719
being in the in the daylight and in the outside air.
770
00:41:10.760 --> 00:41:11.960
I mean, it was right in the middle of the
771
00:41:12.000 --> 00:41:17.079
winter and we had an awful winter. But I definitely
772
00:41:17.119 --> 00:41:20.480
found myself feeling detached in some ways because.
773
00:41:20.239 --> 00:41:22.360
It's like, well, I've just been born into this new
774
00:41:22.440 --> 00:41:25.000
reality that I have to come to terms with, but
775
00:41:25.039 --> 00:41:28.679
no one else is. They're just like cracking on their
776
00:41:28.719 --> 00:41:30.920
reality is the same as before. I got this news
777
00:41:31.000 --> 00:41:33.760
and spent a week in hospital, then you come out
778
00:41:33.760 --> 00:41:34.400
and you're like, what.
779
00:41:35.440 --> 00:41:37.119
One of the weird side effects of that for me
780
00:41:37.159 --> 00:41:40.159
has been this like almost feeling they need to like
781
00:41:40.400 --> 00:41:42.360
tell everybody that I meet that I've got cancer.
782
00:41:43.320 --> 00:41:43.800
I do that.
783
00:41:46.679 --> 00:41:48.840
Because if they know, then of course that means it'll
784
00:41:48.920 --> 00:41:50.840
reset that reality. Yeah, it'll be fine.
785
00:41:51.039 --> 00:41:53.320
Quite early on during my second cycle, and I was
786
00:41:53.360 --> 00:41:56.519
still not having too many problems with appetite, I went
787
00:41:56.599 --> 00:41:59.000
to get a takeaway and I know the guy that
788
00:41:59.039 --> 00:42:00.360
went to take away enough to sort of have a
789
00:42:00.440 --> 00:42:02.480
chat with and of course, as you do, he asked,
790
00:42:02.480 --> 00:42:04.639
well how are you and I said, oh, I've got cancer.
791
00:42:05.639 --> 00:42:10.800
Well. The day before my surgery, I saw Rufus Waynwright
792
00:42:11.159 --> 00:42:13.599
and his husband like in a concert and his husband
793
00:42:13.679 --> 00:42:15.679
was outside, and for some reason I went up to
794
00:42:15.719 --> 00:42:18.320
his husband. I was like, I'm having a h direction
795
00:42:18.400 --> 00:42:21.000
meet tomorrow and he was like what, okay.
796
00:42:22.119 --> 00:42:23.840
Thank you so much for that conversation, Alie. It's been
797
00:42:23.840 --> 00:42:26.360
really interesting. As I said, I'd be really interested in
798
00:42:27.239 --> 00:42:31.159
our listeners reflections on it, and if they want to
799
00:42:31.159 --> 00:42:32.880
get in touch, of course, they can do so by
800
00:42:33.599 --> 00:42:38.280
emailing us hello at livelymindspod dot com. On that note,
801
00:42:38.320 --> 00:42:41.039
apologies to people who have been emailing us and we
802
00:42:41.079 --> 00:42:43.280
haven't been getting back. It's just been because of all
803
00:42:43.280 --> 00:42:45.639
of the various health things going on between both of us.
804
00:42:45.960 --> 00:42:48.760
Yeah, we are aware. We have a back club. Thank
805
00:42:48.760 --> 00:42:51.280
you for listening, and please do tune in again next
806
00:42:51.280 --> 00:42:54.599
time for another episode of Lively Minds the Mental Health Podcast.
807
00:42:55.079 --> 00:42:58.599
Please note that they shoulders not constitute medical advice and
808
00:42:58.800 --> 00:43:01.880
is not a replacement for seeking professional help. You can
809
00:43:01.920 --> 00:43:06.280
find signposting to support on our website livelymindspod dot com.
810
00:43:06.400 --> 00:43:09.360
Thank you to Will for sharing his experiences. If you
811
00:43:09.400 --> 00:43:12.039
are based in the UK and you or someone you
812
00:43:12.039 --> 00:43:14.360
know is going through cancer at the moment, do check
813
00:43:14.360 --> 00:43:16.679
out Maggie's dot org. Will put the link in the
814
00:43:16.679 --> 00:43:19.159
show notes. They offer a lot of different types of
815
00:43:19.199 --> 00:43:22.519
support for people with cancer and people who love people
816
00:43:22.559 --> 00:43:23.039
with cancer.
817
00:43:23.440 --> 00:43:24.920
Make sure that you keep up to date with our
818
00:43:24.960 --> 00:43:26.880
shows by subscribing wherever you get your.
819
00:43:26.760 --> 00:43:29.280
Podcasts, Take care and buy for now.
820
00:43:29.920 --> 00:43:31.000
Bye bye