Life Between Coasts S3 E7: When the Badge Comes Off

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Hi there.
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Welcome to Life Between Coasts, the podcast where we dive into our personal journeys connected through synchronicity.
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So grab your coffee, light a candle, and let's begin.
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I'm your host, Leah, and we're glad you're here.
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Today we're sitting down with Eric.
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Welcome, Eric.
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How are you today?
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I'm doing well, Leah, but it's early, so who knows where the day goes?
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The day could very well go sideways from here.
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So let's find out more about you, though.
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So where do you want to begin?
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Where do we begin?
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I uh I am three months retired from a 24-year career in the FBI.
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Okay.
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So retirement is something I'm trying to find comfort in.
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Right.
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It's I would I honestly, so this is me being vulnerable right off the bat.
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Yeah.
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Leading up towards my retirement, I had to confront what it's going to be like.
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Because when for me and for many agents, the role of being an FBI agent is more than this is my job.
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Right.
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It's very much an identity.
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And it that that was the case for me quite a bit.
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Right.
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So not just that, but I was a SWOT operator.
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So that just amplifies it more that you're that guy who does these things.
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And so I was I was very worried leading up towards retirement.
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And now getting some rest.
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I still miss those things, but I find this is okay.
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I'm I'm I'm dealing all right.
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Right.
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So thank you for asking.
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No, you you know, it and and that's what the transition into full-time employment to retirement.
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I mean, that's the the structure, the paycheck, the everything changes.
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The the interaction with the people was that's the biggest the action, the the purpose too.
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Right, right.
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Well, right, yeah.
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You wake up, you have something to go to.
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So now you're retired.
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What do you wake up?
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You know, you have to wake up for yourself and do things and the honeydew list and and things like that.
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I'm certain.
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But now what uh now were you you're from Michigan?
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Well, from Toledo, Ohio area.
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Okay.
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Grew up there, went uh my path then led me to uh Chicago for schooling.
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Okay.
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And then to Western New York, where prior to joining the FBI, I was a Baptist pastor.
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Okay, interesting.
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So now how do you switch from pastor to FBI?
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What changes that?
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Well, for me, it was how I dealt with the stresses of ministry.
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And I I wasn't I wasn't interacting with people in any way different than many other ministers were.
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I just lacked the ability to separate myself from their problems.
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So when someone in the congregation brings to me a problem, like many pastors deal with, I carried that.
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And the the mounting issues there created an environment where I dealt with stress-related headaches every single day for two years.
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Right.
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And so I just came to a place where though this is what I liked doing, this is what I was successful at, it brought fulfillment.
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I had to find something else because my body said no.
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Right.
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So unlike many of my colleagues who like tell me their life stories of how they always wanted to be in the FBI and this is how they got there, right?
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I did it on a whim.
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You did.
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So, so you you applied what you knew how to work with people, but instead of being the person that's helping them walk through their problems that obviously you couldn't separate from, because I can understand that because you know, sometimes and then you put yourself on the line or you you give too much of yourself consistently, and then you make promises that you can't keep because you overpromise and then you underdeliver and and it g it can get out of spiral out of control.
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And for me, a lot of it was especially in the Baptist church, the need to be the holy perfect man.
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Yes.
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And so, you know, don't catch me at the at the liquor store because that's wrong.
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You know, don't catch me having a bad day.
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So uh all of that together and that and then having to wear a mask constantly.
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Whether that was mandated or that's just what I felt, all of that together was difficult.
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And for me, the cue that I was making the right decision to join the FBI was the day that I got accepted, headache stopped.
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And that was it.
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Really?
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Yeah.
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Amazing.
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Now, what um what prompted the FBI?
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What what was what was that whim?
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Because you could have done you could have done local police, you could have done CIA, you could have done, you know, you could have done anything.
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I could have done it.
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You know, or or nothing to do with criminal justice at all.
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But what what made it?
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So I applied for two jobs, one I was overqualified for and they turned me down, and one I was underqualified for, and then I went that way.
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I I my I studied uh Islam and had trained to work with Muslims, and so that my application was in process in uh in I think 2000, and then it was in process when 9-11 hit.
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Okay.
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I'm assuming that that played a role in the FBI going, oh, okay, you know, this guy knows how to work with Muslims, we've got an al-Qaeda problem.
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So so I went through that process.
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Right.
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And then my first office was Chicago, and of course they put me in a drug squad.
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So that's how that went.
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Well, of course.
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That's the government.
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Right.
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You know, they they put you where they need you, you know.
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And and so what did you now what does it take to be an FBI agent?
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What did you have to do?
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Aaron Ross Powell, Jr.
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In practical terms, uh so this was in the nascent days of the internet in 2000.
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So I was able to download the paper to fill out by hand.
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Right.
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It is a oh my gosh.
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And I I had saved all that I'd written because I was going through my life's history, the history of my extended family, I think since I was 16.
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Like you have to tell everywhere you worked, lived, what your uh, you know, aunt on your father's side's maiden name is and you know how to contact him.
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So so much.
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Right.
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You need to have a bachelor's degree, a clean criminal history, that type of thing.
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The drug use has has weakened since then, they're more accepting, but all of these things, and then it starts out with taking kind of an SAT test.
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Okay.
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And I remember going to, I was in Western New York at the time, going to the Buffalo division and taking it with a bunch of other people.
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And then when I finished, I thought, well, I took a shot.
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It's because there's no way I passed this.
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And then they called me back and I thought, oh my.
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From there, it was uh an interview process.
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Okay.
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You tell, hey, what's one time you encountered this?
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What did you do, and what were the results?
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And and at that point with the interview and the writing, I thought, okay, now now I can handle this.
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Now it's more in my hands, the fitness test, and then the polygraph and background.
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And it went from there.
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And then we go from there.
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Yeah, because during the interview process, I mean, it's it's a constant also psyche value uh because of your question, the line of questioning they're giving you.
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They're they're also figuring out how fair and how understanding or or where your mind sets when it comes to um what's lawful and what's not lawful.
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It is, and and they're also seeing like, do you have experience?
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So I was 32, 33 at the time.
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And you know, when they say, hey, what's one time you um give me an example of some teamwork that was successful?
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And if you go, well, when I was in high school, and you know, and then they say, Oh, give me an example where you you know failed, and you're like, Well, back in high school.
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So you you have to show that you've had experiences and can relate and they're looking for that.
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I understand that too.
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Yeah, working because working with different personalities, different types of people, and then also having to work with the public, and then depending on what role you play within the FBI.
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So you said you were doing SWAT and um pretty much everything.
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I I started, I did in Chicago, I did drugs, gangs, public corruption, civil rights, then moved to the Cleveland Division in Toledo, Ohio, and did organized crime, crimes against children, financial crimes, and then national security and human intelligence.
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Aaron Powell What was the have you ever have you ever been in a situation where you were just like you were scared, like like you knew something bad was about to happen and your life would potentially be over?
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Aaron Powell Well, and those are two different questions.
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Okay, so yeah, so for me, two bad things so separate it for me.
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Yeah, so for me, I was never scared.
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And that's not being macho.
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That's just accepting what's going on, knowing my competency, and knowing, well, I'm capable.
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I'm at least these guys are at least as capable as as me.
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Right.
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We have the same training.
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Yeah.
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So I felt comfortable.
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Maybe that was being naive, but there was never a fear.
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My only fear would be not carrying out my role and letting my partners down.
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Okay.
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Which, you know, I wouldn't say is a fear, but just a concern.
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Right.
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But we had one occasion where we had a barricaded subject.
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It was a woman on a mental break.
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She had been flashing a gun at neighbors, police came, she pointed at them, closed her door.
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So that's that's a standoff.
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Now you need to hope she just surrenders.
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You can rush the room, but now people are gonna get hurt.
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Right.
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Her 10-year-old son was with her, and this was in Youngstown, Ohio, and the building had been vacated.
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We took over the next morning for the police as a SWAT team.
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Right.
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Everybody set up on the perimeter in positions, and then myself and seven or eight other operators were down the hall ready to move if we had to.
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Right.
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But until then, we had negotiators doing their job, and we were we worked very well with the negotiators.
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Right.
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We're protecting them, they're making the calls, but unfortunately, she was not well mentally.
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And our trigger to force entry would be if she threatened her son, okay, or if she fired a shot.
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Right.
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And as the negotiators tried to speak with her, they sent a robot down to amplify and hear better.
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And she didn't like that, and she fired a shot through the door.
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So I looked over at my team leader and went, that was a gunshot.
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We're gonna go.
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And she had previous previously said if anybody comes in, they need to bring body bags because she'll kill them.
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And I remember that was the closest to uh me getting in a situation where I thought it it wasn't a fear, but it was a a cold slap in the face of recognizing I might get shot.
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Right.
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And that probably won't feel good.
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Right.
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You know, here here we go into a what we call a fatal funnel, a narrow way where bullets can be directed.
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Right.
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We would probably kill her, she would probably at least injure some of us.
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We stood down, uh, they thought, okay, let's see how this plays out because we can always go.
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And we finished our shift.
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We pulled out, another team took over, and we were a hundred yards away, taken off gear, heard one round, and heard a second round.
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And the first round was her, and the second round was a sniper, and that ended her life.
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They chose to instigate to say, this has been long enough, we're gonna push the issue.
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I think fortunately for us, our team leader was we can be here longer than she can, we've got patience, this is a human life, let's value it as much as we can.
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Right.
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Right.
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And well, and that's you know, and that's that's a big that's a big thing in in you know, mental health crisis and and and police and you know, and there's there's a lot of different scenarios that can go with that, you know, because you especially once they're behind the closed door, because you also don't know what additional items they have in there.
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She you saw the you know, the handgun as she goes in, yeah, but you don't know if there was anything else that was inside um or anything that she could make a weapon out of, you know, at that point.
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So it's it's it's a harrowing situation.
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Yeah, it it it it brought sobriety to the situation because I I've been on maybe a thousand operations where we're confronting an individual who's a criminal and maybe violent, and we don't know if he's gonna oppose us with force.
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Right.
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And so it's it's always dangerous.
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Right.
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And every time, here I am.
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I can't I've come out of it.
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Right.
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And this was one where it was it it was stopping me from playing that game of you know, pretending to be a SWAT guy, yeah, to oh my goodness, this may have actual harmful results for me or my partners.
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Right.
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Right.
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Now, have you have you been on us in on an assignment where where there's been loss of life on on your team or not on our team, but within the FBI, like at the situation level, like where you're at, where you've been called to?
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We have uh employed deadly force on a subject.
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Okay.
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And and we try, we make every effort to only use that when necessary.
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Right.
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And the one occasion that was directly in front of me, like literally in front of me, was again an it wasn't the same type of mental health issue, but there was mental health issues.
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And because of that, because the erratic nature of the subject, 26-year-old man, uh because of his uh trading in child sexual abuse material, like all these things came together where, okay, we're gonna use SWAT just to be safe.
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We have special tools, we have extra training.
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Right.
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And it was myself and two other men covering the backside and the side of the house when uh the subject kicked out a first floor window and then came at us deliberately with a bat in his hand.
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A gun, no question, a bat.
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We're going to try to resolve this.
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Yeah.
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But he didn't want to.
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Um, so that was one where um my biggest takeaway from that was when the event was over, I asked my buddy who had was the one who pulled the trigger, how long do you think that was?
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And he says, I don't know, maybe five minutes.
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And I go, Yeah, that's what it felt like, but I know it's shorter.
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Yeah.
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And it was a minute and a half.
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I was gonna say 90 seconds.
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It means it was it felt it felt like everything everything in the world happened.
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Yeah.
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And I remember going back and and looking at it.
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Th this was the first shooting in the FBI with body cameras.
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We were a little slow to get those.
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Um and I remember being angry at my team because when we saw the the subject with a bat, I immediately got on my radio and I called for a hands team.
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Because if he put the bat down or if we had an opportunity to rush him, we could resolve this physically and not with guns.
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Right.
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And I remember being angry because they did not respond in time.
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I watched the video.
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They wouldn't have had it.
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It was 10 seconds.
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And and they were right there.
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So it was like a it was a pause, so they got ready and then they moved, and 100 things happened, but it was 10 seconds.
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Yeah.
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So that was that you know, you ask about fear, but what I'll show you is just how the body works.
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I was wearing my Garmin watch at that time, and I checked it afterwards, and you can tell me I'll show the camera first.
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I don't know if you gotta zoom in later.
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Yeah.
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But you can tell me the minute when we engaged with a subject.
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Yeah.
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And the crazy thing about it is too 178 beats per minute.
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Yeah.
00:17:13.240 --> 00:17:16.039
It's a s what was good is it was a spike.
00:17:16.920 --> 00:17:17.880
It was a spike.
00:17:18.119 --> 00:17:19.720
If it was a plateau, I'd be dead.
00:17:19.880 --> 00:17:20.440
Yeah, I know.
00:17:20.599 --> 00:17:27.799
But you just but that you feel that adrenaline rush, you feel, but it it's and yeah, it's the body said you you've got to perform.
00:17:27.880 --> 00:17:27.960
Yeah.
00:17:28.119 --> 00:17:30.679
I'm gonna give you what you need, and now we're done.
00:17:30.919 --> 00:17:33.079
Now, now let's go do so breathe.
00:17:33.319 --> 00:17:35.240
Now let's just calm down and do what we need to.
00:17:35.559 --> 00:17:38.599
So and so after an event like that happens, what do you do?
00:17:38.759 --> 00:17:41.720
What uh you you know, you calm, but how how do you calm yourself?
00:17:41.879 --> 00:17:45.079
I mean, because obviously there's there's things that have to happen.
00:17:45.399 --> 00:17:46.440
There's still a little general.
00:17:46.839 --> 00:17:51.159
You know, so you but you need to like refocus, and then there's always the pause, you know.
00:17:51.240 --> 00:17:55.720
So there's what there's the three-day pause, so they don't question you for three days or something like that, right?
00:17:55.799 --> 00:17:57.079
It's it was pretty quick.
00:17:57.240 --> 00:18:02.359
So they question you, but then union rolls or whatever, just because they want to know what happened right then.
00:18:02.519 --> 00:18:03.639
But so much happens.
00:18:03.720 --> 00:18:06.440
Like you said, you felt it was five minutes, but it was 90 seconds.
00:18:06.679 --> 00:18:06.919
Yeah.
00:18:07.399 --> 00:18:15.879
So in the immediate, you know, this is why I trust the team because I'm focused, and then I go, Oh, I let me get the weapon, let's secure him.
00:18:15.960 --> 00:18:17.240
We don't know if he has got a gun.
00:18:17.399 --> 00:18:17.639
Right.
00:18:17.799 --> 00:18:19.480
You know, we don't know what else is there.
00:18:19.639 --> 00:18:22.679
Um we we provide aid immediately.
00:18:22.839 --> 00:18:28.440
It was within 17 seconds that we provided aid, and that included handcuffing and disarming.
00:18:28.679 --> 00:18:28.839
Right.
00:18:29.000 --> 00:18:34.919
So boom, guys are on it, and then now a guy comes over and now he faces the house.
00:18:35.000 --> 00:18:37.960
Well, our backs are too possible danger.
00:18:38.119 --> 00:18:40.679
So guys are filling in the gaps, doing what's needed.
00:18:40.839 --> 00:18:41.319
Right.
00:18:41.559 --> 00:18:45.799
We're clearing the house, and then you know, we're just settling.
00:18:46.440 --> 00:18:50.359
For me in the aftermath, I didn't feel bad.
00:18:50.599 --> 00:18:53.720
I f I felt angry that the this kid forced us.
00:18:53.879 --> 00:18:54.119
Yeah.
00:18:54.359 --> 00:18:57.159
His last words were kill me as he rushed us.
00:18:59.159 --> 00:19:03.960
But that night, my mind just kept racing, right?
00:19:04.440 --> 00:19:07.159
Trying to resolve this peacefully.
00:19:07.399 --> 00:19:07.559
Yeah.
00:19:07.879 --> 00:19:14.759
So I'm picturing what happened, but my mind was going, Yeah, but what like let's pretend this happened and you didn't have to kill him.
00:19:15.960 --> 00:19:17.960
And so it didn't feel like regret.
00:19:18.119 --> 00:19:20.679
It just felt like I wish this hadn't.
00:19:21.639 --> 00:19:29.000
And and that was for me just the natural movement of how the mind says, I I didn't like that.
00:19:29.159 --> 00:19:29.639
Right.
00:19:29.960 --> 00:19:31.480
I don't feel bad about it.
00:19:31.559 --> 00:19:34.440
I don't feel like this is my fault, but I don't like that.
00:19:34.599 --> 00:19:34.759
Right.
00:19:34.919 --> 00:19:36.519
What can we do about this?
00:19:37.240 --> 00:19:37.559
Right.
00:19:37.879 --> 00:19:42.279
Now uh what you said when he his words, kill me.
00:19:42.359 --> 00:19:44.919
He's charging you with a bat and he's saying, kill me, you know.
00:19:45.000 --> 00:19:51.879
I I mean, now of the three of you that were standing there, which you'd know which one of you probably pulled the trigger, of course.
00:19:52.039 --> 00:19:57.000
And um, I'm not gonna ask if you've ever killed anyone or anything, because you yeah, that's not necessary.
00:19:57.399 --> 00:20:05.559
But um the the when somebody, you know, that's a thing, you know, suicide by cop.
00:20:06.279 --> 00:20:07.399
You know, that is a thing.
00:20:07.559 --> 00:20:12.519
Is so he had a accumulation of a lot of bad things coming against him.
00:20:12.599 --> 00:20:12.919
Yep.
00:20:13.159 --> 00:20:29.559
And you know, he had a couple ways out, and and and that's one because, you know, why why do you why do you think people have, you know, it is a mental there might be a mental situation there, but then but that was also a criminal situation.
00:20:30.039 --> 00:20:33.639
He also then charged to try to do bodily harm.
00:20:33.879 --> 00:20:37.559
Well, um, but why do you think people in general just do that?
00:20:37.799 --> 00:20:39.720
Like um because you hear about it.
00:20:40.039 --> 00:20:40.359
Yeah.
00:20:41.240 --> 00:20:43.319
So a lot of factors in this case.
00:20:43.480 --> 00:20:56.759
One is his father was on parole for uh trading in child sexual abuse material, which means likely good enough chance he was sexually abused, which would bring on some of those mental health issues.
00:20:57.399 --> 00:20:59.879
Um he had drug problems.
00:21:00.440 --> 00:21:08.279
Um the final gift he gave us as guys were you know elbow deep in his blood, was that he was HIV positive.
00:21:09.079 --> 00:21:13.720
And then what we have seen, it has elevated for the FBI.
00:21:13.960 --> 00:21:20.839
Um the last death of an agent came at the hands of uh a pedophile who was gonna be arrested.
00:21:21.079 --> 00:21:29.720
So they're they are very much ones who have been pondering what happens when they this is ultimately gonna come.
00:21:30.039 --> 00:21:33.000
And so many don't want to go peacefully.
00:21:33.399 --> 00:21:33.639
Okay.
00:21:34.679 --> 00:21:39.159
So And a barricade situation is a terrible situation any way you look at it.
00:21:39.240 --> 00:21:39.319
Yeah.
00:21:39.799 --> 00:21:41.399
Again, there's so many unknowns.
00:21:41.960 --> 00:21:42.440
Right.
00:21:42.839 --> 00:21:52.039
So in in in cases, you know, I've I've arrested many criminals and it it is the worst day of their life, but in this case, that's a different level.
00:21:52.359 --> 00:21:55.879
Because now you are now you're being found out.
00:21:56.279 --> 00:22:08.919
The public will know, people in prison will know, and this is this is the one event that you've been perseverating on for so long to say this is the end, this is the worst.
00:22:09.399 --> 00:22:16.200
So I I think for him and for others that we've arrested like that, that is why they press the issue.
00:22:16.599 --> 00:22:16.919
Right.
00:22:17.159 --> 00:22:17.399
Right.
00:22:17.480 --> 00:22:27.240
And that's and uh, you know, I'm not I watch a lot of dateline and stuff like that, but um, I think everybody does, you know, and we're all into Like the crime and drama and things like that.
00:22:27.399 --> 00:22:47.559
But that's actually unfortunately for that perpetrator, um, is not a good conviction to have when you go behind bars, because even the people in jail don't like those kind of people, and they tend to get beaten up a lot more or um killed or whatever, unfortunately.
00:22:47.799 --> 00:22:52.919
Um, but there's there's kitty diddlers, you know.
00:22:53.480 --> 00:22:56.440
That's what they're referred to, and and they don't they don't like them.
00:22:56.599 --> 00:22:56.839
Yeah.
00:22:57.000 --> 00:22:58.759
And and they're bad people, you know.
00:22:59.159 --> 00:23:02.440
And they've been they've been uh simmering in their shame for a long time.
00:23:02.679 --> 00:23:02.839
Yeah.
00:23:03.000 --> 00:23:04.279
So so this is building up.
00:23:04.599 --> 00:23:06.919
This has been building up and now and now it's popped.
00:23:07.000 --> 00:23:07.079
Yeah.
00:23:07.240 --> 00:23:11.799
You know, I've been shaking that champagne, yeah, and now this has come to a head.
00:23:11.960 --> 00:23:18.679
So all of that that they've been just wallowing in of like, I I hate that I do this, but I'm compelled.
00:23:18.759 --> 00:23:19.159
Here we go.
00:23:19.319 --> 00:23:19.639
Right.
00:23:19.879 --> 00:23:25.799
And now And that's yeah, that's a totally different story about the getting into the mind of somebody like that.
00:23:25.879 --> 00:23:32.119
Oh my gosh, what oh gosh, I just it makes me just it makes my skin crawl, you know, just to think of things like that.
00:23:32.279 --> 00:23:44.679
So I mean, but so when you have 24 years like this, so you you know, I'm not saying everything was always a high like this, you know, you're always having events like this, but you know, how do you come down from that and transition into your retirement?
00:23:44.839 --> 00:23:45.639
What do you what do you do?
00:23:45.720 --> 00:23:47.879
What do you what's your what do your what's your plan?
00:23:48.359 --> 00:23:54.759
Oh uh I thought you So what I would do to come down from that in the moment is is this.
00:23:54.919 --> 00:23:56.440
We would talk about it, we'd tell a story.
00:23:56.679 --> 00:23:59.879
We we didn't we didn't do it in therapy to each other.
00:23:59.960 --> 00:24:03.559
It's like, hey man, I need to get this off, but we agents would often tell stories.
00:24:04.039 --> 00:24:05.720
These are intense, these are intense things.
00:24:05.879 --> 00:24:09.399
I mean, stand off with a mother with a 10-year-old and inside with her.
00:24:09.639 --> 00:24:23.799
I mean, obviously these, you know, these situations and these aren't just uh one-off situations, they happen in every state and uh in almost every city, unless you're in some rural area that's you know, it's still gonna happen there too.
00:24:24.440 --> 00:24:31.159
Very possible, you know, unless you own the you know own the entire place and nobody lives around you, but you still have that potential.
00:24:31.319 --> 00:24:33.639
I mean, crime has no address, that's the key.
00:24:33.799 --> 00:24:43.799
Um, and and people have to recognize that, you know, and and and unfortunately, you know, whether it's the FBI or the local police or anything, you know, you have to understand that it's a reactive situation.
00:24:43.960 --> 00:24:45.480
You're reacting to something.
00:24:45.879 --> 00:25:19.319
And so that you still have to be perfectly aware of your surroundings, you still have to be an understanding what's going on in in those scenarios when there's somebody wandering around a parking lot or inside a store, if they look, you know, it's it's the see something, say something, and be okay with saying something, you know, and understanding where you say you may not have that fear to go into it, you still should have that fear for the instinct if you fear danger, you know, from a from say from my perspective, if I'm you know going to dial 911 or or call for something help for some reason.
00:25:20.440 --> 00:25:26.919
So first off, I'm gonna steal that uh crime has no address, because that's that's just wonderful.
00:25:27.879 --> 00:25:30.119
I've used that I'm a real estate broker as well.
00:25:30.200 --> 00:25:35.480
So I've used that uh for uh 20 plus years, 45 years just because you know, fair housing.
00:25:35.639 --> 00:25:41.399
You know, I can't talk about safety and things and guarantee things, so I'm like crime has no address to call your local police station, find out for yourself.
00:25:41.480 --> 00:25:42.279
Aaron Ross Powell Oh, very good.
00:25:42.440 --> 00:25:43.079
I like that.
00:25:44.440 --> 00:25:54.519
Otherwise, there is there's a balance of seeing the seedy part of humanity and thinking everyone is terrible.
00:25:54.839 --> 00:25:56.599
Like, oh, everybody's got something to hide.
00:25:56.679 --> 00:26:01.720
I because I've been in people's houses and they're all hiding disgusting things, criminal actions.
00:26:01.960 --> 00:26:09.240
And and and then having that just burn you where you can't go to Kroger without thinking these guys are all terrible.
00:26:09.639 --> 00:26:10.039
Right.
00:26:10.440 --> 00:26:12.279
So because the world is dripped in fear.
00:26:12.359 --> 00:26:13.079
Sorry to cut you off.
00:26:13.319 --> 00:26:14.519
I mean, that's I have always said that.
00:26:14.759 --> 00:26:27.399
And so there's a balance between and and I think that goes back to competency too, which is okay, so I I have a sensitivity instead, more than you might.
00:26:27.639 --> 00:26:39.159
But if you had my sensitivity to what people are capable of without exposure to being able to handle that, then that's going to paralyze you.
00:26:39.399 --> 00:26:39.639
Right.
00:26:39.879 --> 00:26:44.599
So for for us in the FBI, part of it is we're already waiting in those waters.
00:26:44.839 --> 00:26:54.839
So, you know, if I called you up and I say, Hey, Leah, come on, we're gonna go on a search warrant, and you've never been exposed to some of these disgusting things, then you're like, I can't take this.
00:26:55.000 --> 00:26:55.319
Right.
00:26:55.559 --> 00:27:00.679
But we've been waiting in those waters for a bit, and so it's, you know, the hot tub doesn't seem so hot.
00:27:00.839 --> 00:27:01.159
Right.
00:27:01.399 --> 00:27:04.599
Because, you know, we've had our feet knit for a bit.
00:27:04.759 --> 00:27:06.839
And so it's not as much of a shock.
00:27:07.079 --> 00:27:18.440
But also it's it's just there has to be, I found, some self-reflection of not just doing the job, but also considering, yeah, what is this doing to me?
00:27:18.599 --> 00:27:20.039
Is this affecting me?
00:27:20.279 --> 00:27:27.960
Um let me consider some of the biases and the judgments that I'm that I'm having instead of just having them.
00:27:29.000 --> 00:27:45.319
When I started in Chicago, I worked uh Mexican and Colombian drug cartels, and everyone we encountered, every Mexican was either a criminal or helping the criminals, or knew the criminals were doing it and didn't care.
00:27:45.639 --> 00:27:48.599
And so that I had to confront that.
00:27:48.759 --> 00:27:51.399
That not all Mexicans are bad.
00:27:51.639 --> 00:27:52.679
But that's all I'm seeing.
00:27:52.839 --> 00:27:56.679
Every Mexican I was seeing in Chicago was tied to crime and didn't care.
00:27:56.919 --> 00:27:57.240
Right.
00:27:57.639 --> 00:28:06.039
And so if I just let that go, now I'm now I'm just engaging in a prejudice without reflection on is this true?
00:28:06.279 --> 00:28:20.599
And then, you know, then I start uh meeting some guys that I was rolling with in jujitsu, and a dude tells me is like, yeah, uh, I'm not here legally, but I'm a plumber's apprentice, and I'm like, hey, this this is a good guy.
00:28:20.759 --> 00:28:28.519
I'm gonna anchor with him instead of not thinking about what's going on in my mind and in my heart.
00:28:28.839 --> 00:28:29.399
Right.
00:28:29.720 --> 00:28:30.039
Right.
00:28:30.279 --> 00:28:40.039
Well, yeah, and and that's because if your environment and you're consistently exposed to only the criminal aspect, you know, it's like how do you break away?
00:28:40.119 --> 00:28:50.759
So it's the same thing as when you were a pastor, you know, it's like how do you break away from that develop taking over your brain and saying all people from Mexico are bad, you know, but they're not.
00:28:51.000 --> 00:28:51.240
They're not.
00:28:51.399 --> 00:29:10.359
Um, and you know, it's interesting, and you say if somebody, you know, when somebody says that they, you know, uh don't have legal papers or or things like that, you know, I've recently had um had a a uh I'm gonna call him um a friend, um, just because he's been a tax client now for about 10 years.
00:29:10.519 --> 00:29:23.799
And um, but he had an appeals case that um it's appeal time ran out, and so he was on a list, and so ICE was looking for him and found him, and and now he's not here anymore.
00:29:24.039 --> 00:29:33.960
And so it's you know, there's I've talked to him since, you know, um, and and he's fine and you know, and and and he was treated fine and you know, things like that.
00:29:34.039 --> 00:29:41.319
But you know, the fact is that he has a six-month-old, and you know, now there's going to be distance between there, and so he's still trying to figure out he had a business.
00:29:41.480 --> 00:29:51.480
Um, he employed people and and things, so now he's just trying to figure out how to how to get those things still either to keep them moving or um or to close things down.
00:29:51.639 --> 00:29:54.200
So that's what where he stands at this point.
00:29:54.440 --> 00:29:58.200
Um, but it's you know, so it puts you on both sides of the fence, you know.
00:29:58.279 --> 00:30:05.480
You're just you're just like, okay, well, I'm certain that some people are criminals that come across the border illegally.
00:30:05.639 --> 00:30:09.000
His happen to be an expired visa, um, but it's still the same thing.
00:30:09.079 --> 00:30:10.599
He still has an expired visa, you know.
00:30:10.679 --> 00:30:17.319
So it's just like going back and forth, and then, you know, any other counts that might be against him for, you know, a ticket or whatever.
00:30:17.799 --> 00:30:18.440
You know, yeah.
00:30:18.919 --> 00:30:23.000
Everything comes again accumulative, you know, when it comes into a case like that.
00:30:23.240 --> 00:30:41.000
But it's just like, but when you're like you said, you're going through that, it's like, okay, well, you think one thing and then you have conversations and you talk to other people and and you find out, and it's like, wow, okay, so I don't know how to handle this, I don't know how to process this, I don't know, you know, because there's a lot the rule of law, but then there's also but he's my friend.
00:30:41.159 --> 00:30:41.799
Yeah.
00:30:42.440 --> 00:30:45.159
Well, I like friendship.
00:30:45.319 --> 00:30:46.759
I like the rule of law too, obviously.
00:30:47.399 --> 00:30:48.519
So it's like a balance, you know.
00:30:48.599 --> 00:30:50.919
It's just like, but and I didn't see anything bad in him.
00:30:51.240 --> 00:30:51.799
Right.
00:30:52.119 --> 00:30:55.240
But, you know, I don't live with him either, so I don't know.
00:30:55.639 --> 00:30:56.119
Yeah.
00:30:57.159 --> 00:31:02.839
We we would you can get people on charges if you want to.
00:31:03.000 --> 00:31:07.079
And and I've been there as an agent where there's possible charges.
00:31:07.240 --> 00:31:13.000
It it's ultimately gonna come to whether the federal prosecutor is gonna push it, and we could tell many times they wouldn't.
00:31:13.319 --> 00:31:16.039
But there's people we could work up cases on.
00:31:16.119 --> 00:31:16.440
Yeah.
00:31:16.679 --> 00:31:21.399
And it just didn't seem like it w the juice was worth the squeeze.
00:31:21.559 --> 00:31:21.879
Yeah.
00:31:22.039 --> 00:31:29.319
Um and then you see cases like your friend, you're like, uh there's a lot there's a lot of bad people out there we could spend more time on.
00:31:29.559 --> 00:31:31.559
Yeah, and that's that's exactly how I feel.
00:31:31.720 --> 00:31:46.359
You know, it's just like there's there's gotta be a there's gotta be a balance that both sides can agree to, and I'm not a political person, so it's just like, but you know, there's gotta be something for humanity that we can figure out how it will work, you know.
00:31:46.440 --> 00:31:49.879
Um, but it's just but we have to have start having more conversations.
00:31:50.039 --> 00:31:58.200
We can't just say one this side's better than that side or vice versa or whatever, um, and not, you know, um, and not have that.
00:31:58.279 --> 00:32:00.759
But I I'm not having an immigration conversation.
00:32:00.839 --> 00:32:03.000
Um, but because you brought that up, I was just curious.
00:32:03.079 --> 00:32:03.399
Yeah.
00:32:03.879 --> 00:32:08.919
Just because being being part of the law and being, you know, hearing those words too, you know, it's one of those things.
00:32:09.159 --> 00:32:09.720
Yeah.
00:32:10.039 --> 00:32:27.639
So and as I said, the the the bias can sneak in and the this well, it could even be big T trauma, but the traumas sneak in and they have to be dealt with, or else um as an agent you become jaded.
00:32:27.799 --> 00:32:34.519
Every every morning when you check in, you're looking for crime, you're looking for bad people and bad behavior.
00:32:34.759 --> 00:32:35.000
Right.
00:32:35.240 --> 00:32:39.159
And it would be like a bird watcher saying, Man, there sure are a lot of birds out here.
00:32:39.480 --> 00:32:43.639
Like, well, you're trying to look for birds, so you're gonna see a lot of birds.
00:32:43.960 --> 00:32:51.799
And so that that had to be something where I found like-minded men and women, typically men, that I can share that with.
00:32:51.960 --> 00:32:52.119
Right.
00:32:52.359 --> 00:32:56.039
And again, not in a uh, hey, buddy, I need a hug type situation.
00:32:56.440 --> 00:32:57.079
Right, right.
00:32:57.319 --> 00:32:58.919
But just talking about it.
00:32:59.079 --> 00:33:22.279
And the way we handled the the shooting is we had employee assistants come in with a chaplain, and it wasn't mandatory meetings, it wasn't, but we did our normal process, which is an after-action review, where we go back and we talk about what our role was, what we did well, and each person, as we went around, 25 different guys, said what they saw.
00:33:23.240 --> 00:33:32.679
Not how you felt, not you know, what are you dealing with, just a normal process of um what went on for you in this.
00:33:32.919 --> 00:33:35.480
And so if feelings come out, feelings come out.
00:33:35.639 --> 00:33:36.119
Right.
00:33:36.359 --> 00:33:39.799
If talking about it brings something up, it comes up.
00:33:39.960 --> 00:33:40.200
Right.
00:33:40.440 --> 00:33:48.359
We went around and we got to my buddy Matt, who wasn't there, and so I I knew exactly what he was gonna say.
00:33:48.679 --> 00:34:01.159
And he said, I felt terrible because I let my team down because my kid was sick and I couldn't be there, but now, like, oh, I I missed an opportunity, as if he could have solved it, but then there's that regret.
00:34:01.480 --> 00:34:01.799
Right.
00:34:01.960 --> 00:34:11.480
But again, just talking about it and getting it out in the open helps us to address what might otherwise harden inside of us.
00:34:11.800 --> 00:34:12.599
Right, right.
00:34:12.840 --> 00:34:14.519
And now how did you balance that?
00:34:14.679 --> 00:34:24.920
So um we haven't talked about family life or anything, but how did you balance that, like that kind of role and dealing with that and balance that with family life?
00:34:25.480 --> 00:34:26.599
Well, two ways.
00:34:26.920 --> 00:34:31.800
One is I, you know, I didn't go to the bars, I don't golf all weekend.
00:34:32.039 --> 00:34:36.840
So there were many nights I was not available, there were many early mornings.
00:34:37.079 --> 00:34:42.440
When we ever we had SWAT operations, I was usually up around one or one thirty in the morning for that day.
00:34:42.679 --> 00:34:43.159
Right.
00:34:43.320 --> 00:34:47.960
Um and so then when it was time to be home, I was home.
00:34:48.279 --> 00:34:55.639
So if the kids missed me, if the wife had to make some different plans, they knew it was important.
00:34:55.880 --> 00:34:56.199
Right.
00:34:56.440 --> 00:34:58.279
Because all the other times I'm gonna be there.
00:34:58.440 --> 00:34:58.920
Right.
00:34:59.239 --> 00:35:07.239
And then the the other thing I observed along the way is in Chicago, my wife would say, Oh, you know, let me know when you're done so you're safe.
00:35:07.400 --> 00:35:08.840
And she she was very worried.
00:35:08.920 --> 00:35:12.759
And I said, Look, honey, I'm gonna die by car accident or heart attack.
00:35:12.920 --> 00:35:13.960
I'm not gonna get shot.
00:35:14.199 --> 00:35:14.599
Right.
00:35:14.840 --> 00:35:16.199
That's much more likely.
00:35:16.440 --> 00:35:22.440
And so that evolved to where years later, you know, I'm on SWAT, I've been doing this for a long time.
00:35:22.599 --> 00:35:25.719
And I'd say, Hey, babe, we got uh we got an operation Tuesday morning.
00:35:25.880 --> 00:35:28.119
She's like, All right, I'll put it on the calendar.
00:35:28.920 --> 00:35:31.719
And I go, this guy's kind of dangerous.
00:35:31.960 --> 00:35:33.239
And she's like, Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:35:33.400 --> 00:35:36.519
I said, He told inform he wouldn't be taken alive.
00:35:36.759 --> 00:35:38.759
And she's like, I I said I'd put it in the calendar.
00:35:38.840 --> 00:35:39.320
Why don't we?
00:35:39.960 --> 00:35:49.000
You know, so it goes from like very worried, like this is the guy This is the new life I've got my wife had to adjust to uh he comes home every day.
00:35:49.239 --> 00:35:49.400
Yeah.
00:35:49.719 --> 00:35:51.079
Seems it'll be fine.
00:35:51.320 --> 00:35:53.159
I'm like, eh, this one's actually dangerous.
00:35:53.880 --> 00:35:55.480
So let's let's put a red flag on the colour.
00:35:55.639 --> 00:35:55.880
Exactly.
00:35:56.360 --> 00:35:59.000
Let's heighten the maybe do a color code on him.
00:35:59.320 --> 00:36:12.599
Oh, we had one, if you don't mind me telling this story, we had one where um when I left at midnight for this operation, I told my wife, this is gonna make the news one way or the other.
00:36:13.000 --> 00:36:19.079
Either this was a big bus that we made, or there's a lot of casualties.
00:36:19.480 --> 00:36:20.039
Right.
00:36:20.519 --> 00:36:27.639
So we got a call that uh a young man was traveling from California across country and his driver had called us.
00:36:27.960 --> 00:36:32.599
And his driver called us because he said, I don't think this man speaks English.
00:36:33.480 --> 00:36:44.199
Uh he seems to be Persian, and he gave me an address in DC that he wants driven to, gave the driver fifteen thousand dollars and said, Drive me to this address.
00:36:44.440 --> 00:36:48.519
The driver looked up the address and it was the Israeli embassy.
00:36:48.920 --> 00:36:49.079
Okay.
00:36:49.320 --> 00:36:58.199
And he says, I need to be there by uh October 7th, which would have been the first anniversary of the Hamas attack.
00:36:58.519 --> 00:36:58.840
Yeah.
00:36:59.719 --> 00:37:06.360
So all that together, and the driver says, he's got a backpack that he carries with him and never leaves it out of his sight.
00:37:06.599 --> 00:37:09.159
I have a concern that he's got a bomb.
00:37:09.639 --> 00:37:16.119
So this guy's they're driving cross-country, nobody stops him, but he said, Oh, we're gonna be stopping in Toledo overnight for a hotel.
00:37:16.199 --> 00:37:18.679
So, like, let's let Toledo take care of this.
00:37:19.000 --> 00:37:19.960
So here's me.
00:37:20.279 --> 00:37:22.360
Of all places stuff in Toledo.
00:37:22.679 --> 00:37:22.920
Right.
00:37:23.079 --> 00:37:26.679
Well, it's off the turnpike, so maybe makes sense, East West.
00:37:27.719 --> 00:37:39.159
So he stops there, and we're setting up, and all night we're making plans, and I'm there with some of my buddies from SWAT, uh, another squad from Cleveland from counterterrorism that's helping out.
00:37:39.400 --> 00:37:39.799
Yeah.
00:37:40.119 --> 00:37:41.480
All my teammates.
00:37:41.719 --> 00:37:49.960
In the meantime, uh, Toledo Police Department working with us, take a bomb dog, walk it around the vehicle, dog hits multiple times.
00:37:50.279 --> 00:37:53.000
So now there's a pretty good chance there's a bomb.
00:37:54.679 --> 00:38:01.079
So we set up, we've got the plans, bomb tech's with us, and we talk about deadly force.
00:38:01.639 --> 00:38:09.880
So if I give you commands and you don't comply, but instead you make a furtive movement, I don't have to wait to see if that's a gun.
00:38:10.119 --> 00:38:11.320
So we're talking about that.
00:38:11.880 --> 00:38:22.119
If we give commands and the kid reaches for the backpack, you know, one of my buddies says, you know, if if we don't move fast enough, there's gonna be a pink mist of just us blowing up.
00:38:23.079 --> 00:38:36.360
So the kid comes out to meet the driver at an arranged time in the morning, and we have our plan, we rush in with vehicles and guns, and he goes straight to the ground.
00:38:36.679 --> 00:38:38.360
So great, compliant.
00:38:38.840 --> 00:38:45.559
Our bomb tech comes over, takes a backpack, and there's nothing in there but books.
00:38:47.480 --> 00:38:53.880
He gets interviewed, and once again, a common theme in our session here, he has mental health issues.
00:38:55.320 --> 00:38:57.799
Why were you going to the Israeli embassy?
00:38:58.440 --> 00:38:59.320
God told me to.
00:38:59.799 --> 00:39:01.239
What were you gonna do when you get there?
00:39:01.719 --> 00:39:03.559
Wait for God to tell me what to do next.
00:39:03.960 --> 00:39:19.400
So he had religious materials, he had uh a number of Faraday bags, sim cards for phones, and the reason the bomb dog hit was because he worked in uh mining where they use explosives.
00:39:19.639 --> 00:39:22.840
Okay, and so he still had some of that on his clothes and the dog could detect it.
00:39:23.239 --> 00:39:23.880
Shoes, things like that.
00:39:24.039 --> 00:39:24.920
All of all of this.
00:39:25.159 --> 00:39:30.759
So I was wrong when I told the wife it didn't make the news at all because we had no charges.
00:39:30.920 --> 00:39:31.239
Right.
00:39:31.480 --> 00:39:34.519
And so he gets interviewed and we let him go.
00:39:34.759 --> 00:39:35.159
Right.
00:39:36.199 --> 00:39:42.279
But all of that evidence leads you to one you make an assumption, you know, really like, oh my gosh, this is the same.
00:39:42.599 --> 00:39:46.039
Everything, everything said this guy is going to bomb the Israeli embassy.
00:39:46.360 --> 00:39:46.759
Right.
00:39:47.079 --> 00:39:49.880
And yet he was just not well.
00:39:50.360 --> 00:39:56.599
Just not well, just somebody So the story ended as the driver goes, Well, he paid me 15 grand.
00:39:56.840 --> 00:39:58.279
I guess I'm still driving him.
00:39:58.519 --> 00:40:08.759
They stopped at a rest stop in uh Baltimore area, and as they got out, the kid saw a trooper and he just ran off into the woods.
00:40:08.920 --> 00:40:11.000
And that's the last anyone's ever heard of him.
00:40:11.400 --> 00:40:11.880
Really?
00:40:12.360 --> 00:40:15.480
So you get scared of the police at that point or something to that.
00:40:16.679 --> 00:40:17.719
Yeah, something happens.
00:40:18.039 --> 00:40:28.119
So well, I hope um I hope he's okay and survived or found the answers that he was looking for, maybe, or hopefully help somewhere.
00:40:28.440 --> 00:40:31.480
Because yeah, it it's like, how do you follow up with something like that?
00:40:31.880 --> 00:40:32.119
Right.
00:40:32.279 --> 00:40:36.599
I mean, we he was actually a missing person um from his parents.
00:40:36.840 --> 00:40:37.400
Right.
00:40:37.639 --> 00:40:41.320
And we contacted them and he said, uh, I'm I'm moving on.
00:40:41.400 --> 00:40:43.159
You know, I'm I've got a mission.
00:40:43.480 --> 00:40:47.799
So like there's limited things we can do, and we tried.
00:40:48.039 --> 00:40:52.840
I mean, we tried the the most important thing, which is to stop a bombing that we thought was coming.
00:40:53.000 --> 00:40:53.159
Right.
00:40:53.400 --> 00:40:58.199
But it so when you ask about these events, like some of these are crazy.
00:40:58.360 --> 00:40:58.519
Yeah.
00:40:58.759 --> 00:41:03.960
Where I leave the house at midnight thinking, I might die tomorrow.
00:41:04.279 --> 00:41:12.440
And yet all that happened was I lost a lot of sleep, and and then you kind of like shrug your shoulders at the end and go, huh.
00:41:12.759 --> 00:41:13.559
We did our job.
00:41:13.960 --> 00:41:17.960
We we did what we were supposed to do, but it didn't it didn't pan out.
00:41:18.119 --> 00:41:20.519
So uh and how long have you been married?
00:41:21.559 --> 00:41:23.079
33 years.
00:41:23.400 --> 00:41:23.799
Yeah.
00:41:24.119 --> 00:41:25.079
Okay, excellent.
00:41:25.400 --> 00:41:26.759
And um, how many kids?
00:41:27.000 --> 00:41:27.960
Three, three kids.
00:41:28.119 --> 00:41:32.840
Okay, so um, so they've been, you know, obviously through the whole ride with you too.
00:41:32.920 --> 00:41:40.519
And um, you know, so you know, but the balance too, like I said, so coming back to that, um, how did you find that that balance?
00:41:40.599 --> 00:41:42.759
So they knew that when you were home, you were home with them.
00:41:42.920 --> 00:41:43.239
Yeah.
00:41:43.400 --> 00:41:47.880
Um, but now with retirement, now are your kids adults now or they're adults.
00:41:48.039 --> 00:41:53.320
Um, the youngest is 19 and will be leaving the house soon.
00:41:53.480 --> 00:41:55.799
So I mean they they they've all grown up.
00:41:55.960 --> 00:42:01.639
I this is one thing I'm gonna be honest, I have great resentments for the resentment for this.
00:42:01.880 --> 00:42:04.759
The kids never seem to care that I was in the FBI.
00:42:04.840 --> 00:42:06.759
I was like, hey, this is super cool, guys.
00:42:07.000 --> 00:42:07.159
Right.
00:42:07.320 --> 00:42:08.519
And they're like, yeah.
00:42:11.400 --> 00:42:14.199
Well, you have to have, I think there, there, yeah.
00:42:14.360 --> 00:42:16.920
I think that there is a you can't talk me out of resentment.
00:42:17.000 --> 00:42:18.279
I'm I'm very resentful about it.
00:42:18.599 --> 00:42:22.599
I uh they are your kids, so you can resent your own kids for that, I suppose.
00:42:22.840 --> 00:42:34.199
But eventually they'll they'll maybe it'll click one day that wow, wow, you did really have a death-defying, you know, position in a SWAT, or you know, it did now if you did undercover or anything like that.
00:42:34.360 --> 00:42:44.039
I mean, you put yourself into per you know definitely precarious positions um where your life could be on the line, you know, and and so that is uh a a thought that you cross.
00:42:44.199 --> 00:42:54.440
So coming from a religious background and then going into that type of profession, you kind of have that balance a little bit, and you know, the faith and whatever else.
00:42:54.519 --> 00:42:56.279
And hopefully I won't knock the lamp off.
00:42:56.360 --> 00:42:57.320
I've got to move that.
00:42:57.559 --> 00:43:04.679
Um, but then so having all of that structure, having all that excitement, and doing all of that, now you're retired.
00:43:04.759 --> 00:43:05.559
You said three months?
00:43:05.799 --> 00:43:06.039
Yeah.
00:43:06.199 --> 00:43:07.480
Three months retired.
00:43:07.960 --> 00:43:12.759
Other than catching up on sleep, what's I'm not even doing that, I'm still getting up early.
00:43:12.920 --> 00:43:13.159
Yeah.
00:43:13.400 --> 00:43:24.840
Uh so coming in towards retirement, my wife, who her company markets authors and then just got into publishing too, she said, Oh, you should write a book.
00:43:25.159 --> 00:43:26.440
And I said, Yeah.
00:43:26.759 --> 00:43:29.559
But I I I regretted that I never wrote down stories.
00:43:29.719 --> 00:43:32.440
Because I I remember getting in and going, Oh, I I should do that.
00:43:32.599 --> 00:43:35.079
And then never, I don't know why I didn't.
00:43:35.559 --> 00:43:38.920
But when agents ever have downtime, we're always telling stories.
00:43:39.000 --> 00:43:39.159
Yeah.
00:43:39.239 --> 00:43:42.599
And and those stories are like actually pretty amazing.
00:43:42.840 --> 00:43:51.320
We're just like, Oh, I remember that time, and you know, a guy jumped out of the second story window, and his brother jumped too and he broke his back, and like, like, yeah, that was crazy.
00:43:51.559 --> 00:44:10.759
And so I sat down at the computer and started writing, and I put together the story of what it would be like if a Baptist pastor who's never handled a gun before went into the uh most elite law enforcement agency in the world and got to do some remarkable things too.
00:44:11.079 --> 00:44:11.320
Right.
00:44:11.639 --> 00:44:14.840
So put the book together and that'll be published in the fall.
00:44:15.079 --> 00:44:15.799
Fabulous.
00:44:16.039 --> 00:44:18.199
So, um, and what uh have you picked a title for it?
00:44:18.519 --> 00:44:20.039
I have settled on a title for it.
00:44:20.599 --> 00:44:21.880
Well, we we worked a bit on it.
00:44:22.039 --> 00:44:28.360
So the title is Irreverend from Saving souls to chasing sinners in the FBI.
00:44:28.840 --> 00:44:29.639
I like that.
00:44:29.960 --> 00:44:37.000
So the idea is that I I was a reverend, but also we did some irreverent things along the way in the FBI.
00:44:37.400 --> 00:44:37.799
Yeah.
00:44:37.960 --> 00:44:38.279
Yeah.
00:44:38.519 --> 00:44:43.320
And you know, unfortunately, there are um it's a fine line.
00:44:44.119 --> 00:44:45.559
I don't mean immoral.
00:44:45.799 --> 00:44:51.960
I mean uh I mean w we tell dark jokes, you know, we would play pranks.
00:44:52.759 --> 00:44:54.440
We were in nasty situations.
00:44:55.079 --> 00:44:55.719
Yeah.
00:44:56.199 --> 00:45:00.679
And I've never worked for the FBI, but I've been in pr some pretty nasty situations myself.
00:45:00.840 --> 00:45:04.199
So I can tell you about like the dark jokes and things like that.
00:45:04.360 --> 00:45:07.239
You know, I mean I did autopsies for five years.
00:45:07.480 --> 00:45:11.799
Um and and so I had the the privilege of being able to work into that.
00:45:11.880 --> 00:45:14.920
Um in and that's before I switched to business myself.
00:45:15.079 --> 00:45:36.039
So and and I had uh you know a couple ME cases and I had a um we did have a decomposed one um body come in and and you know found uh gentlemen found in a drainage ditch, you know, scenario, and and so all the law enforcement and everybody was there and and you know putting VIX under your nose doesn't help.
00:45:36.199 --> 00:45:40.759
It only amplifies the smell of honestly it just eucalyptus disgusting.
00:45:41.079 --> 00:45:45.799
Yeah, it just like it it clears your nose and nasal passages to breathe in the nasty smell.
00:45:45.960 --> 00:46:00.599
You know, it's just like you know, I remember when um uh Darlene, she was uh the supervisor there, she she called me, she goes, Leah, she goes, I'm calling you in because there's no maggots, you know, because I want you to at least experience this just so you know what it's like.
00:46:01.000 --> 00:46:10.840
So, you know, and and I remember coming off the elevator, like two basements down in the hospital, you're in the morgue, and and this guy is triple bagged in the cooler and and you already smell him.
00:46:11.400 --> 00:46:14.519
Oh yeah, and yeah, so it's like it's it's some pretty intense.
00:46:14.759 --> 00:46:21.159
And so you have to have humor to get through moments sometimes like that when you're doing things.
00:46:21.480 --> 00:46:29.639
How many times did you s take a moment and think if the public heard what we just said to each other, they would be aghast if they didn't have context.
00:46:29.960 --> 00:46:31.079
Yeah, oh yeah, totally.
00:46:31.320 --> 00:46:39.480
I mean, because you know, I mean, and and that's the thing too, is because there's you know, like when you're removing the brain and things like that, you know, there's things that you have to do.
00:46:39.559 --> 00:46:50.920
You have to fold the skin forward on the face, and and you know, so as you're doing something, if the head hits the table or something like that, you don't mean to, but but you're always apologizing the body and and things like that.
00:46:51.079 --> 00:46:57.880
And it's just like people, if that they didn't realize what you were actually, you know, you're sorry to the person, you know, you but their soul's not there, you know.
00:46:57.960 --> 00:47:04.679
So it's a different, it's a different kind of of moment when you're in different positions and how your behaviors are.
00:47:04.840 --> 00:47:17.880
So humor helps to lighten the situation, especially when you're doing what you're doing, because if you only had that seriousness and only had that darkness, it would crack you, it would break you, and you and you would turn into one of those sinners.
00:47:18.119 --> 00:47:18.440
Yeah.
00:47:18.679 --> 00:47:23.400
Well, either that either you're gonna cry every day and you're useless, right?
00:47:23.559 --> 00:47:27.719
Or you harden yourself so much that now you're useless to your family and others.
00:47:27.960 --> 00:47:29.320
And you're gonna just block yourself out.
00:47:29.639 --> 00:47:31.400
You have to find some way in between there.
00:47:31.719 --> 00:47:34.759
And that's the day that you decided you want to work in accounting.
00:47:35.000 --> 00:47:35.559
Yeah.
00:47:35.960 --> 00:47:36.759
Yeah, I know.
00:47:36.920 --> 00:47:38.920
I actually it was first a property management.
00:47:39.159 --> 00:47:45.480
I walked that was I walked into the the front door of my apartment community I was living in and said, Oh, you have a job posted.
00:47:45.880 --> 00:47:48.679
That's how I changed from medicine to business.
00:47:48.920 --> 00:47:49.960
But it's you know what?
00:47:50.199 --> 00:47:53.079
So it's those transitions, those things that happen.
00:47:53.239 --> 00:47:54.920
Um, life happens, you know.
00:47:55.000 --> 00:47:58.519
But and you've unfortunately have seen some of the darker parts of life.
00:47:58.679 --> 00:48:08.039
Um but but you're smiling on this end and and you're able to tell your story because you're here on this side of the, you know, the upside of the ground, right?
00:48:08.199 --> 00:48:11.400
You know, they didn't have the opportunity to take you away from your family.
00:48:11.639 --> 00:48:15.159
Yeah, I I think going through it with others too, that always helps.
00:48:15.480 --> 00:48:18.440
We've experienced this together, and now we're gonna discuss it.
00:48:18.599 --> 00:48:19.559
Now we're gonna talk about it.
00:48:19.880 --> 00:48:24.039
That that helps to when it when it's brought out, it's not just here.
00:48:24.119 --> 00:48:25.559
Now it's out in the open, it's real.
00:48:25.639 --> 00:48:25.880
Right.
00:48:26.039 --> 00:48:27.480
And now we can reflect on it.
00:48:27.639 --> 00:48:28.840
That that's always helped.
00:48:29.159 --> 00:48:36.039
And now um now this probably would be a question I should follow up and call your wife or something, but now how is she gonna handle with your retirement?
00:48:36.199 --> 00:48:44.759
Because if you're not, you know, going from not being there a ton, working a lot, because you know, when you leave at 1 30 in the morning to being there, hey, I'm I'm here.
00:48:44.920 --> 00:48:54.679
You know, it's like I have uh, you know, I have of lots of friends that uh have shortened their schedules, you know, and their wife basically says, Don't come home until after 4 p.m.
00:48:55.159 --> 00:48:56.679
because I don't want you around the house.
00:48:57.000 --> 00:48:59.320
Well, uh don't call my wife, please.
00:48:59.559 --> 00:48:59.880
I won't.
00:49:00.199 --> 00:49:01.000
No, don't mess that.
00:49:01.480 --> 00:49:04.360
Um I'm secondly, I'm delightful to be around.
00:49:04.599 --> 00:49:05.799
I I think so.
00:49:05.960 --> 00:49:07.719
That's just her great advantage.
00:49:08.039 --> 00:49:10.759
It's wow.
00:49:10.840 --> 00:49:15.400
I mean, just think of how awful awesome, awesome that is for her.
00:49:15.719 --> 00:49:17.880
No, um, we work out well.
00:49:18.039 --> 00:49:19.639
I busy myself.
00:49:19.799 --> 00:49:23.639
Um, I come to her because I have questions like, hey, we're trying to do this with a book.
00:49:23.799 --> 00:49:24.679
What do you think about this?
00:49:24.840 --> 00:49:28.119
But otherwise, she's she's doing her thing.
00:49:28.360 --> 00:49:28.679
Good.
00:49:28.920 --> 00:49:35.159
And now that the weather's changing a bit, you know, I can get into some more projects and and uh stay tinkering that way.
00:49:35.400 --> 00:49:36.599
Oh, but that's always fun.
00:49:36.759 --> 00:49:38.759
That's always always, always so much fun.
00:49:38.840 --> 00:49:42.679
I know um my mister and I, he um we we work together as well.
00:49:42.759 --> 00:49:50.199
So we've you know, for the last 18 years um is been not just a romantic relationship, but also work life.
00:49:50.360 --> 00:50:00.599
So it was difficult in finding balance for the first 18 years, and then I quit um recently, so um about working with him um just because I found that I needed the separation.
00:50:00.920 --> 00:50:02.920
Um and and that was a good thing, you know.
00:50:03.079 --> 00:50:18.360
And so it was um it's it's improved because it's less of the employee-employer um kind of relationship that it was forming into, um, just because I had gotten complacent, you know, with the way it was.
00:50:18.679 --> 00:50:19.799
Now you have things to talk about.
00:50:20.119 --> 00:50:20.360
Right.
00:50:21.960 --> 00:50:22.440
Yeah, exactly.
00:50:22.840 --> 00:50:23.320
We need differences.
00:50:23.639 --> 00:50:25.639
What went on with the you know what happened.
00:50:25.719 --> 00:50:26.920
You I interacted with you.
00:50:27.159 --> 00:50:35.239
Yeah, well, and that's uh same friend that can't go home before four is also limited to how many days they actually get together on vacation because they run out of things to talk about.
00:50:35.400 --> 00:50:36.199
That's the same thing.
00:50:36.360 --> 00:50:39.719
Um so he's near retirement age, but he's you know, so it's funny.
00:50:39.799 --> 00:50:40.519
It's just the same thing.
00:50:40.599 --> 00:50:42.519
Um I guess I'm learning some things then too.
00:50:42.679 --> 00:50:43.719
Yeah, being aware of.
00:50:44.039 --> 00:50:44.920
Yeah, definitely.
00:50:45.400 --> 00:50:47.719
Um, but no, that's that's a wonderful thing.
00:50:47.880 --> 00:50:52.360
So I I look forward to reading your book.
00:50:52.440 --> 00:50:54.440
Um, so keep us in tune about that.
00:50:54.679 --> 00:50:57.400
Um, are you gonna set up a website or do you have a website?
00:50:57.799 --> 00:50:58.119
I do.
00:50:58.279 --> 00:50:59.239
And what is that website?
00:50:59.559 --> 00:51:00.519
I don't know if you're ready for it.
00:51:00.920 --> 00:51:01.320
Are you ready?
00:51:01.639 --> 00:51:01.799
Yes.
00:51:02.039 --> 00:51:04.440
It's preacher to breacher.com.
00:51:04.759 --> 00:51:06.519
Preacher to breacher.com.
00:51:06.759 --> 00:51:08.519
I was the guy who broke down the doors.
00:51:08.679 --> 00:51:09.559
I was the breacher.
00:51:09.799 --> 00:51:10.199
Nice.
00:51:10.440 --> 00:51:11.880
So I like that.
00:51:12.119 --> 00:51:13.799
That's that's a really, really good.
00:51:14.279 --> 00:51:14.759
It's pretty good.
00:51:14.920 --> 00:51:15.799
That that's really good.
00:51:15.880 --> 00:51:17.719
It's spot on.
00:51:17.880 --> 00:51:18.759
I think that's perfect.
00:51:19.320 --> 00:51:20.599
I'm hearing giggles in the next room.
00:51:20.679 --> 00:51:22.279
That's why I know Alexis agrees with that.
00:51:22.599 --> 00:51:23.639
That's why I know it's a good one.
00:51:23.880 --> 00:51:27.079
That that was the original title for the book, and we're like, oh yeah, but yeah.
00:51:27.239 --> 00:51:31.880
Um so give a little bit more context with the title, but I like that for the the website.
00:51:31.960 --> 00:51:35.960
That's great because we'll connect that on our website as well, so then our listeners can find you.
00:51:36.119 --> 00:51:36.440
Fancy.
00:51:36.679 --> 00:51:37.400
Um, just the same.
00:51:37.559 --> 00:51:45.880
So then now um now, Eric, one of the last questions that we ask all of our guests is what is your personal anthem?
00:51:46.039 --> 00:51:57.000
And like I said um early on um uh before we started the the conversation, was it could be for your lifetime, it could be for the moment, but it's like it's what's that song that just pumps you up to go do what you have to do to breach that door?
00:51:57.239 --> 00:52:01.239
Oh you know, what what was what amped you to go do what you had to do?
00:52:01.559 --> 00:52:03.559
So I put some thought to this.
00:52:03.719 --> 00:52:14.519
My first, my first reflection, which this is not my answer, was probably for about 15 years, I had Eric Church's creeping as my bureau ringtone.
00:52:14.679 --> 00:52:15.000
Okay.
00:52:15.320 --> 00:52:23.719
And uh I can't emphasize how freeing it was to get rid of my FBI phone that was like always by the bedside.
00:52:24.119 --> 00:52:33.799
There was the there's a Tide commercial that has a a clang, clanging sound that's the same as our FBI SWAT call out.
00:52:34.279 --> 00:52:39.960
And like two weeks after I retired, I'm watching TV and I I shot up.
00:52:40.279 --> 00:52:42.440
Okay, and then I'm like, I don't do that anymore.
00:52:42.599 --> 00:52:42.920
Okay.
00:52:43.159 --> 00:52:43.400
Okay.
00:52:43.559 --> 00:52:49.400
You know, and then I heard creeping in a in a grocery store, and like, no, no, no, that's just the song.
00:52:49.639 --> 00:52:51.480
So that one that one's meaningful to me.
00:52:51.719 --> 00:52:55.559
I I love Eric Church and and yet the FBI ruined him for me.
00:52:58.279 --> 00:53:03.000
But if you don't know this song, this'll be great.
00:53:03.480 --> 00:53:06.519
It's not very common.
00:53:06.759 --> 00:53:15.079
And so I went back to one that I will go to if you know I need Alexa to give me something to pump up and I'm working out.
00:53:17.480 --> 00:53:19.320
1989, I believe.
00:53:19.639 --> 00:53:23.000
The band is The Call, and the song is Let the Day Begin.
00:53:23.400 --> 00:53:24.279
Let the Day Begin.
00:53:24.599 --> 00:53:25.480
Do you know that one?
00:53:25.960 --> 00:53:27.000
I think I might.
00:53:27.400 --> 00:53:28.199
Starts with a bass.
00:53:28.519 --> 00:53:30.039
Yeah, I'm gonna have to listen to it.
00:53:30.279 --> 00:53:32.360
Um but it will be added to the anthem list.
00:53:32.440 --> 00:53:40.599
So I I will listen to it because that's one thing that I I make sure that I do is that I consistently play through the the anthem list to hear all the songs from all the guests that come on.
00:53:40.920 --> 00:53:42.440
That one's that one's really good.
00:53:42.679 --> 00:53:43.960
And let uh keep going.
00:53:44.360 --> 00:53:45.079
I'm gonna throw out one more.
00:53:45.239 --> 00:53:45.480
Yeah, yeah.
00:53:45.719 --> 00:53:47.000
That this this one's a new one.
00:53:47.239 --> 00:53:47.639
Uh-huh.
00:53:48.679 --> 00:53:53.960
This this one is more um centering.
00:53:54.440 --> 00:54:00.759
Uh Spencer LaJoy sings a song called uh Plow Share Prayer.
00:54:01.159 --> 00:54:01.400
Okay.
00:54:01.639 --> 00:54:06.440
Which is really it's very reflective uh and it's good.
00:54:06.519 --> 00:54:10.440
It's it's it's an it's a soulful uplifting one.
00:54:10.519 --> 00:54:12.920
It's not it doesn't you know it doesn't get me ready to work out.
00:54:13.239 --> 00:54:22.039
No, but it's sometimes it's the words that you need to hear to tell you that you're you've done a good job and that you're you're doing the right things by who matters the most.
00:54:22.279 --> 00:54:28.360
Yeah, it's a plea for healing for all people that Spencer mentions in the song.
00:54:28.679 --> 00:54:28.920
Yeah.
00:54:29.239 --> 00:54:32.279
So and and a fairly local artist.
00:54:32.599 --> 00:54:33.239
Nice Michigan.
00:54:33.639 --> 00:54:35.159
We'll add well, actually I'm gonna add them all.
00:54:35.400 --> 00:54:40.759
You know, because I think you know, it's funny because you know, you you said now they ruined the song um for you.
00:54:41.159 --> 00:54:53.880
But uh, you know, I had a I had a boss um that towards the end of my employee, um I had the ringtone set to uh the blue oyster cult, Don't Fear the Reaper.
00:54:54.440 --> 00:54:58.679
And that was the ringtone that every I'm like, oh I just couldn't do it anymore.
00:54:58.840 --> 00:55:12.519
And that was every time, and then so now anytime I hear that, I still get like the chills down my spine, you know, because that it for some reason that that made some sort of carbon copy on my yeah emotional brain, like you know, at that moment in time.
00:55:12.759 --> 00:55:14.440
Yeah, I love Eric Church so much.
00:55:14.519 --> 00:55:16.440
I don't know why I did that to myself.
00:55:17.320 --> 00:55:21.559
Because you like the song at the moment, you're like, oh, that'll be great, and matches everything's good.
00:55:21.639 --> 00:55:24.599
And next thing you know, ah, I can't 15 years later.
00:55:24.840 --> 00:55:25.159
Yes.
00:55:25.320 --> 00:55:39.480
So, but it is funny how how music does bring those memories or those sounds, you know, there's certain ringtones or certain, you like you said, that that SWAT chime, you know, it's like it it got you right up, you know, and and it was just because that was your automatic.
00:55:39.639 --> 00:55:55.239
Um now, how does your it one last question as we wrap up here, just because it when you're on all the time, you know, because you're you're aware of your surroundings, you're always looking for exits, you're you know because that's what you do, because that's what you did.
00:55:55.719 --> 00:55:58.039
Sit sitting with your back to the wall facing the door.
00:55:58.199 --> 00:55:58.599
Yeah, yeah.
00:55:58.840 --> 00:56:06.360
With with two cops to get together, and if whoever's there first gets the cop seat, and the other one's I have to trust you.
00:56:06.759 --> 00:56:07.320
I understand.
00:56:07.400 --> 00:56:10.119
I I fight um that we have a fight with that one.
00:56:10.279 --> 00:56:19.000
Um my mister always does, but he has a friend that prefers, and neither of them are law, but they are both very familiar with you know, the cop seat basically.
00:56:19.079 --> 00:56:19.239
Yeah.
00:56:19.559 --> 00:56:25.960
And um one has to have that seat all the time and and wants the other one to give it up, and so there's always that power struggle between them.
00:56:26.119 --> 00:56:29.320
And I'm like, who it should be who gets there first, gets that seat.
00:56:29.480 --> 00:56:31.400
So that should be the way to do it.
00:56:31.559 --> 00:56:34.840
Um, but how does that translate to retirement for you?
00:56:34.920 --> 00:56:38.440
I mean, are you you still need to be sur uh aware of your surroundings?
00:56:38.519 --> 00:56:40.840
That's something that's a guiding principle everybody should have.
00:56:41.000 --> 00:56:41.400
Yeah.
00:56:41.639 --> 00:56:47.480
But you know, from being always having to be a hundred percent on top, has that calmed for you any?
00:56:49.000 --> 00:56:52.679
I think it's calmed a bit, but I'll I'll be honest.
00:56:52.840 --> 00:57:02.360
So I I hate sounding like, you know, the old sheepdog type mentality where guys are like, you know, we're here to protect you, you're just the sheep.
00:57:02.840 --> 00:57:09.000
But having been the guy who would run towards fire or towards sounds for so long.
00:57:10.440 --> 00:57:12.199
I probably still would.
00:57:12.519 --> 00:57:12.759
Yeah.
00:57:14.039 --> 00:57:15.639
And there and the world needs people like that.
00:57:15.960 --> 00:57:25.559
You know, i I mean, everyday people that are not with a badge, you know, that are willing to run towards it because again, you know, at the end of the day, it's a reactive nature.
00:57:25.719 --> 00:57:34.440
And if you're on scene and you're already there and you have the ability, and we've seen that across the country, there's been times where where civilians have stepped in and they're heroes.
00:57:34.599 --> 00:57:35.400
And and they are.
00:57:36.119 --> 00:57:40.360
So, you know, what's the worst that could happen if you hear gunfire and you run towards it?
00:57:40.440 --> 00:57:41.719
What's the worst could happen?
00:57:41.960 --> 00:57:43.880
That you get shot or killed?
00:57:44.119 --> 00:57:49.079
No, the worst that could happen for me is running away and and more people are killed.
00:57:49.239 --> 00:57:49.480
Yeah.
00:57:49.639 --> 00:57:57.799
And and that's you know, that was the mentality that I always had, which is I don't want to hurt someone who doesn't necessitate it.
00:57:58.039 --> 00:57:58.119
Right.
00:57:58.360 --> 00:58:02.360
Not just deserve it or whatever, but this is the last option.
00:58:02.599 --> 00:58:06.279
And so in cases like that, I don't want other people to be hurt.
00:58:06.920 --> 00:58:14.199
And if there's anything that I might be able to do, I'd I'd rather do that than go, well, at least I'm okay.
00:58:15.639 --> 00:58:16.360
I don't like that.
00:58:16.679 --> 00:58:16.840
No.
00:58:17.000 --> 00:58:40.840
Well, and I'm thankful, Eric, that there are people like that out there, um, like you out there, I should say, um, especially even in retirement, that that you're always gonna be on guard and and keeping check and making sure that if you see something that that you're gonna be running towards the fire and and not away from it because that's you know, there's a lot of people that do run away and and do the self-preservation thing.
00:58:41.079 --> 00:58:42.360
Um it's okay.
00:58:42.679 --> 00:58:45.639
Yeah, they don't have the competencies, they haven't been trained for exactly.
00:58:45.799 --> 00:58:48.599
And then there's some people that will just, you know, that need to.
00:58:48.679 --> 00:58:57.639
But like I said, thank you again for for all of the service that you had offered for our country and for us and and protecting us from all of the bad people out there.
00:58:57.880 --> 00:59:02.279
And uh thank you again for joining us on this week's episode of Life Between Coasts.
00:59:02.360 --> 00:59:07.239
Please remember to like, share, and subscribe to continue to grow our community of listeners.
00:59:07.400 --> 00:59:12.440
We'd like to thank Eric again for joining us on this week's episode and have a great week.
00:59:12.519 --> 00:59:14.360
And until then, bye bye.