WEBVTT
00:00:05.880 -->
00:00:18.460If you're looking for a podcast to inspire and inform, to take you beyond bullet points with practical insights that'll help you make a difference in your work and life, then you've come to the right place.
00:00:18.460 -->
00:00:18.940I'm Dr.
00:00:18.940 -->
00:00:23.120Jason Price, and this is Life at the Sharp End.
00:00:27.080 -->
00:00:28.860There's no neutrality, you're never in the middle.
00:00:28.860 -->
00:00:32.720You're passive, doing nothing, or you're active, doing something.
00:00:39.269 -->
00:00:46.129What do you do when you see something that's just not right happening to someone else nearby?
00:00:46.129 -->
00:00:48.409Do you stand up and say something?
00:00:48.409 -->
00:00:51.169Or do you stand back and watch?
00:00:51.169 -->
00:01:04.309The role of bystanders in workplace incivility, bullying and harassment incidents is significant, and their behaviour can influence the course of events for good or for ill.
00:01:04.309 -->
00:01:13.209Bystanders might take no action for fear of becoming the next target of a workplace bully, staying silent to preserve their own safety.
00:01:13.209 -->
00:01:21.829Yet a research study shows that remaining inactive as a bystander can raise the risk of becoming a future target threefold.
00:01:21.829 -->
00:01:28.369What role does the behaviour of bystanders play in establishing workplace culture?
00:01:28.369 -->
00:01:40.609Graham Goulden is a former police officer who's combined his career experience in crime prevention with his interest in the role that bystanders play in changing the behaviour of others.
00:01:40.609 -->
00:01:52.329Graham's developed his own programme to help people understand how peer intervention can be used as a vital tool in preventing or addressing a toxic workplace culture.
00:01:52.329 -->
00:02:02.049In this episode, we hear from Graham about his experience of Life at the Sharp End of creating positive cultural change through the behaviour of bystanders.
00:02:09.021 -->
00:02:11.501Graham, it's great to have you on the podcast.
00:02:11.501 -->
00:02:17.761Tell me a bit about your experience in policing and how you've now come to be working in this area independently.
00:02:17.761 -->
00:02:19.021Yeah, it's been such a journey for me.
00:02:19.021 -->
00:02:26.301I never thought 30 years ago that I'd be doing what I'm doing today, but it all started back in 1987, when I joined Lothian Borders Police.
00:02:26.301 -->
00:02:28.541That's the police service in Edinburgh at the time.
00:02:28.541 -->
00:02:32.241Now we have a national police service, but this was many, many years ago.
00:02:32.241 -->
00:02:34.061And I was 19 years old.
00:02:34.061 -->
00:02:37.041I was really young, really naive, but I wanted to be a cop-up.
00:02:37.441 -->
00:02:40.861And I think back then, I've been asked, why do you want to join the police service?
00:02:40.861 -->
00:02:42.521We need to help people.
00:02:42.521 -->
00:02:49.421We don't join policing to get rich, but we join to help, to help our communities and to catch the baddies.
00:02:49.421 -->
00:02:56.101But I joined policing at a young age, and I spent my first decade in policing operational.
00:02:56.101 -->
00:02:59.861Frontline police officer, detective for about five or six years.
00:02:59.861 -->
00:03:06.281And I went to our training school in Scotland, Tully Allen, and trained the next batch of recruits during the service.
00:03:06.441 -->
00:03:13.761Loved that, really loved that ability to train, teach, be that role model, I suppose, for the next generation.
00:03:13.761 -->
00:03:18.121And that was a sergeant's post, that's my first promotion into leadership role.
00:03:18.121 -->
00:03:23.981Came back from police college and started to do operational policing as a supervisor.
00:03:23.981 -->
00:03:28.001But there was always a time in my career where I thought, am I really making a difference?
00:03:28.001 -->
00:03:35.541I remember questioning myself, am I, through this idea of locking people up, arresting people, am I really making a difference?
00:03:35.621 -->
00:03:38.861And I don't think I was.
00:03:38.861 -->
00:03:44.101I was noticing the children of the people that I was locking up coming into my custody.
00:03:44.301 -->
00:03:46.521In latter years, it was the grandchildren.
00:03:46.521 -->
00:03:51.641I thought, really, that cycle of offending and not really stopping it.
00:03:51.641 -->
00:03:56.341And then I got a chance to go into the prevention field within my own force.
00:03:56.341 -->
00:04:02.701But then in 2009, chance of a lifetime, I was promoted to a chief inspector role within the Scottish Violence Reduction Unit.
00:04:02.701 -->
00:04:08.261And it was in those last years of my policing career that a whole lens changed on how we prevent violence.
00:04:08.721 -->
00:04:11.241I often looked at the badness in society.
00:04:11.241 -->
00:04:12.341What's wrong with you?
00:04:12.341 -->
00:04:14.781But I started to ask questions like, what's happened to you?
00:04:14.781 -->
00:04:16.181Why are you behaving in that way?
00:04:16.181 -->
00:04:17.081How can we stop it?
00:04:17.241 -->
00:04:22.301What do you need from community, from policing, but why the community, to help you?
00:04:22.301 -->
00:04:28.781The impact of early years trauma, the impact of domestic abuse that leads often to violence in our streets.
00:04:28.781 -->
00:04:32.621But I started to look at the presence and the potential power of bystanders.
00:04:33.261 -->
00:04:36.801People who are present when harmful situations happen.
00:04:36.801 -->
00:04:46.341And I learned from the research, and around two-thirds of violent incidents, third parties, friends, colleagues, strangers, they see things.
00:04:46.341 -->
00:04:53.121They witnessed the build up to events, they witnessed the event itself, and also they become aware of it, they're told about something.
00:04:53.121 -->
00:04:58.661And it got me thinking, imagine the Scotland where we actually trained people to notice stuff.
00:04:58.661 -->
00:05:00.861But importantly, we trained them to act.
00:05:01.601 -->
00:05:03.121How much can we prevent?
00:05:03.121 -->
00:05:06.961But one of the biggest untapped resources we have in the world is community.
00:05:06.961 -->
00:05:13.961We can activate community, we can really make it, we help them prevent things, nip things in the bud, and do things really early.
00:05:13.961 -->
00:05:21.101So I started to introduce concepts of bystandership into high schools, helping young children be better friends.
00:05:21.101 -->
00:05:24.721Following on from that idea, you know, friends don't let friends drive drunk.
00:05:24.721 -->
00:05:33.981That was the campaign in the United States in the 1980s, leading to nearly 70% of US citizens taking car keys off their friends, you know, that idea of, what do we do for our friends?
00:05:33.981 -->
00:05:35.041Looking out for our friends.
00:05:35.041 -->
00:05:40.501And we'll talk more about that sense of responsibility within emergency services, you know, globally as well.
00:05:40.501 -->
00:05:53.621So I retired from policing in 2017 and thought, one, too young to retire, and two, this fire in my belly to take this bystander approach into wider, you know, communities.
00:05:53.621 -->
00:05:59.001So I find myself now working with university students, you know, sports teams.
00:05:59.401 -->
00:06:15.061I've worked in professional sports in the United States with Chicago Cubs, LA Dodgers baseball team, working with law firms, public authorities, and I trained police officers in the United States and now here in the UK, not to intervene on the public, but to intervene on each other.
00:06:15.061 -->
00:06:17.361And that's what we're really going to focus on today.
00:06:17.361 -->
00:06:26.341The power of the peer, the power of active bystandership as a tool to build trust and confidence in a profession that I feel really, really strongly about.
00:06:27.121 -->
00:06:29.621And now I find myself working in fire and rescue.
00:06:29.621 -->
00:06:31.541I love that podcast you did with Chad Costa.
00:06:31.541 -->
00:06:33.301Chad Costa, yeah, episode nine.
00:06:33.301 -->
00:06:34.401Yeah.
00:06:34.401 -->
00:06:40.781Because lots of things resonated and I think peer intervention presents opportunities to really build that community.
00:06:40.781 -->
00:06:44.441So that's just a snapshot of the last 37 years.
00:06:44.441 -->
00:06:46.281I mean, there's some really good points you touched on in there.
00:06:46.281 -->
00:06:55.721And I think that perspective that you've got from operational policing in front line stuff with violence and victims, that it isn't something that just happens in isolation.
00:06:55.721 -->
00:06:56.961There's a build up, isn't it?
00:06:56.961 -->
00:07:05.161You know, when we've talked about workplace incivility and bullying and harassment that happens and fire and rescue culture that you've mentioned there as well.
00:07:05.161 -->
00:07:15.681We know from the research that incivility is the start point and it escalates in the same way that there's, you know, a path for people you must have seen in your operational role.
00:07:15.681 -->
00:07:17.701People start off going down the chain.
00:07:17.781 -->
00:07:19.861It's kind of the slippery slope.
00:07:19.861 -->
00:07:32.761When people see these things happening, there's obviously a pattern, but there's been quite a bit of research and programs to do what you've talked about, people getting involved and helping their peers and intervening when it stopped.
00:07:32.761 -->
00:07:41.081I know we talked in the run up to this around the ABLE program, Active Bystandership for Law Enforcement in the US, that you went through.
00:07:41.081 -->
00:07:44.201What is the ABLE program and what did you learn from it?
00:07:44.201 -->
00:07:48.821And how did that influence the work you've developed now in your own program?
00:07:48.821 -->
00:07:55.221The background to the As One program, which we'll talk about shortly, was my work with policing culture in the United States.
00:07:55.221 -->
00:08:05.521You know, 2021, I was asked to develop a culture change program for future chiefs of police in the campus law enforcement side of policing in the United States.
00:08:05.521 -->
00:08:06.841And I did a number of sessions.
00:08:06.841 -->
00:08:10.061And my last session was called Bad Cops and Bystanders.
00:08:10.061 -->
00:08:14.161The day I delivered the session was the day that Derek Shobham was convicted of the murder of George Floyd.
00:08:14.901 -->
00:08:24.121And it became so relevant to our conversation because all the police chiefs were on standby for riots of who knows what would have happened if he had been found not guilty.
00:08:24.121 -->
00:08:26.041So that session went really, really well.
00:08:26.041 -->
00:08:33.321And in the back of that, I got approached by Georgetown University staff there who run the Active Bystander for Law Enforcement, ABLE.
00:08:33.321 -->
00:08:49.081It's a follow on from the likes of the EPIC program, Ethical Policing is Courageous, which started in, I think, 2013, 14 New Orleans, back of Hurricane Katrina, high levels of police misconduct, low levels of trust and confidence in the organization and the New Orleans Police Department.
00:08:49.081 -->
00:08:54.221And also, they were being taken to court every week for multi-million dollar lawsuits.
00:08:54.221 -->
00:08:58.841And it got people thinking, we need to change, we need to think differently.
00:08:58.841 -->
00:09:13.381And so EPIC came into the fore, the idea of officers looking out for each other, not to cover up mistakes or cover up bad behavior, but to act before it becomes that bigger problem that people have to deal with.
00:09:13.381 -->
00:09:15.321And that was a success.
00:09:15.321 -->
00:09:22.881It led to more trust and confidence on its own, but along with other work that was going on, trust started to grow in the department.
00:09:22.881 -->
00:09:29.081And following on from that, there was a big demand for peer intervention and active by-standership in law enforcement.
00:09:29.081 -->
00:09:32.481So ABLE was introduced, and I was asked to be one of the national trainers.
00:09:32.481 -->
00:09:35.321I'm the only UK-based national trainer.
00:09:35.321 -->
00:09:48.841And that program taught me so much about, you know, I already knew some of the psychology, but it gave me foundation, it gave me a structure, it gave me a way to engage with officers and staff.
00:09:48.841 -->
00:09:52.941I've never been a fan of telling people you need to do something, right?
00:09:52.941 -->
00:09:54.281We need to influence.
00:09:54.281 -->
00:09:59.021You know, the American psychologist Robert Sheldini talks about the science of persuasion.
00:09:59.021 -->
00:10:02.701And what I took from ABLE was what's in it for me?
00:10:02.701 -->
00:10:05.701You know, if I buy into this program, what are the benefits for me?
00:10:06.221 -->
00:10:09.241I love, it's one of the best training programs I've gone through.
00:10:09.241 -->
00:10:16.101And now I deliver it every couple of months, a trainer trainer session online to officers around the US and Canada.
00:10:16.101 -->
00:10:17.621Cops engage in this program.
00:10:17.621 -->
00:10:17.961Why?
00:10:17.961 -->
00:10:23.501Because it's the missing conversation that actually officers wanted to have, I think.
00:10:23.501 -->
00:10:30.281We've always wanted to have a conversation with our pals about what's right and what's wrong, and how do we speak up.
00:10:30.281 -->
00:10:33.361And on the back of that, I developed the As One program.
00:10:34.041 -->
00:10:38.681The name itself, I got the idea from the All Blacks, Rugby team.
00:10:38.681 -->
00:10:39.621They talk about-
00:10:40.041 -->
00:10:40.681Good team.
00:10:40.681 -->
00:10:41.721Good team.
00:10:41.721 -->
00:10:44.181Good team from your part of the world.
00:10:44.181 -->
00:10:48.981And one of their mantras is following the spearhead, coming together as one.
00:10:48.981 -->
00:10:54.461The team that flows together in that V formation that migrates, and birds often fly in.
00:10:54.461 -->
00:10:57.841It's the best team because they're looking out for each other, and supporting each other.
00:10:57.841 -->
00:10:59.641It's the most efficient way to fly.
00:10:59.641 -->
00:11:03.941So why can't we apply that in policing, and now in other other settings as well?
00:11:03.941 -->
00:11:19.181So as one uses ABLE as a foundation, but it brings in my last, what, 15 years, looking at gender based violence, looking at the role that gender plays, you know, behavior, not only of people who cause harm, but also silence of bystanders.
00:11:19.181 -->
00:11:23.541George Floyd, we look at racial bias for the George Floyd, why nobody intervened.
00:11:23.541 -->
00:11:26.201We rarely talk about the presence of men.
00:11:26.201 -->
00:11:30.041Men, we find it hard, guys, to intervene in situations.
00:11:30.041 -->
00:11:30.381Why?
00:11:30.381 -->
00:11:33.621Because we've been socialized, from a young age, not to, I think.
00:11:33.621 -->
00:11:37.841I've started to bring in more around trauma and the brain science.
00:11:37.841 -->
00:11:51.161We often forget about the impact of early years trauma that is coming into organizations like policing and their staff and compound that with the prolonged, extreme stress that officers find themselves experiencing.
00:11:51.161 -->
00:11:58.421Now, on a daily basis, we have a perfect storm for instability, poor well-being, suicide, mistakes.
00:11:59.441 -->
00:12:03.921So, I think it's important that we bring all of this into these conversations.
00:12:03.921 -->
00:12:08.621And as one, as a program not delivered online, it's not a tick in the box.
00:12:08.621 -->
00:12:11.521No, your culture is worth so much to you.
00:12:11.521 -->
00:12:12.461You need to invest in it.
00:12:12.461 -->
00:12:17.541And you don't change culture by a quick half hour, tick the box, online training.
00:12:17.541 -->
00:12:22.681You need to get cops in the room, staff in the room, talking to each other.
00:12:22.681 -->
00:12:24.321Because there is more good in the world than bad.
00:12:24.321 -->
00:12:25.681That's fact.
00:12:25.681 -->
00:12:30.801But we also know from research that many people wrongly perceive what their friends think.
00:12:30.801 -->
00:12:33.101So you need to correct these misperceptions.
00:12:33.101 -->
00:12:37.301So yeah, it's a curricula I'm really proud of.
00:12:37.301 -->
00:12:44.101And I'm working now with four UK forces, and now a fire and rescue service within the UK.
00:12:44.101 -->
00:12:51.221I mean, that point of being in the room and having those conversations with people, I mean, that's such an important part of culture, isn't it?
00:12:51.281 -->
00:13:01.001And actually breaking down both people's understanding of, if we look at workplace culture and what is incivility, bullying and harassment, you've referenced Chad's podcast.
00:13:01.001 -->
00:13:05.961One of the things he said in there was about how the environment actually influences people.
00:13:05.961 -->
00:13:07.681And sometimes you don't know that it's happening.
00:13:07.681 -->
00:13:13.081He was very candid in his podcast episode about the contribution that he made.
00:13:13.081 -->
00:13:15.601Do you mention their bystanders and their terminology?
00:13:15.601 -->
00:13:18.481You talked about people not wanting to stand up.
00:13:18.481 -->
00:13:25.441And you gave the example of the George Floyd case, but you see this all the time that there's this thing, the bystander effect, isn't it?
00:13:25.441 -->
00:13:30.661The more people are watching, actually, the less likely somebody is to stand up and intervene.
00:13:30.661 -->
00:13:50.441And we know from the research into workplace bullying, that the people who are targeted, the victims of workplace bullying, the fact that people see this and nobody speaks up causes additional harm to them and is almost as hurtful or more hurtful than the actions of the perpetrator of that bullying itself.
00:13:51.021 -->
00:13:56.881You hear terms banded around bystanders and some organizations use the term upstander as well.
00:13:56.881 -->
00:14:00.761What's your take on the difference in these terms?
00:14:00.761 -->
00:14:02.661What is a bystander?
00:14:02.661 -->
00:14:05.201Is upstander the right term to use?
00:14:05.201 -->
00:14:07.841So tell us a little bit from what you've looked into on this.
00:14:07.841 -->
00:14:09.641You know, my opinion, I get pushback.
00:14:09.641 -->
00:14:15.521And I think what I've learned about prevention is when you get it right, you make people feel uncomfortable, right?
00:14:15.521 -->
00:14:20.581For me, if you look at the dictionary, definition of a bystander is someone who's present who's not intervening.
00:14:20.581 -->
00:14:26.141So I think we have all been conditioned for decades on a dictionary definition.
00:14:26.141 -->
00:14:29.761We need to look at the evidence, the research, academic research.
00:14:29.761 -->
00:14:30.781And why is that important?
00:14:30.781 -->
00:14:37.741Because when you witness a harmful event, an active bystandership is the art and science of reducing harm.
00:14:37.741 -->
00:14:45.061So when you witness anything harmful, in those first few seconds, you're a bystander, you're there, right?
00:14:45.061 -->
00:14:46.121You're present.
00:14:46.121 -->
00:14:47.541It's what happens next that matters.
00:14:48.321 -->
00:14:54.801And I think if we ignore the potential for people to be passive, then it's a flawed approach.
00:14:54.801 -->
00:14:56.921What we need to do is we need to look at the research.
00:14:56.921 -->
00:15:01.381You know, the definition I use in my work is from the social scientist, psychologist, Dr.
00:15:01.381 -->
00:15:02.401Erwin Staub.
00:15:02.401 -->
00:15:08.081And he talks about a witness who is present and in a position to do something.
00:15:08.081 -->
00:15:12.441In his book, The Roots of Goodness and Resistance to Evil, he talks about, you know, you have choices.
00:15:12.441 -->
00:15:15.561You can tune out, you can change the channel, you can walk away.
00:15:16.741 -->
00:15:18.081That's the passive bystander.
00:15:18.081 -->
00:15:18.961There's no neutrality.
00:15:18.961 -->
00:15:19.861You're never in the middle.
00:15:19.861 -->
00:15:24.161You're passive, doing nothing, or you're active, doing something.
00:15:24.161 -->
00:15:27.161And in both roles, you have great power.
00:15:27.161 -->
00:15:39.101So to simply dismiss the idea of passiveness and don't want to talk about that is flawed because, let's face it, a lot of us are passive when we see harmful situations.
00:15:39.101 -->
00:15:45.981So the first thing we need to do is to get people to understand the consequences of our inaction, what that does.
00:15:45.981 -->
00:15:47.481You talked about victims.
00:15:47.481 -->
00:15:55.941My daughter Alice was on a train a couple of years ago, for me up, middle of the day, dad, there's a man on this train, keeps staring at me, won't leave me alone.
00:15:55.941 -->
00:15:58.041And I could tell she was scared.
00:15:58.041 -->
00:15:59.301And I said, who's with you?
00:15:59.301 -->
00:15:59.861Dad, nobody.
00:15:59.861 -->
00:16:02.001They've all moved seats.
00:16:02.001 -->
00:16:02.281Right?
00:16:02.281 -->
00:16:05.701They just left my daughter alone, the passengers on the train.
00:16:05.701 -->
00:16:08.641And in that instant, my daughter had been rendered invisible.
00:16:08.641 -->
00:16:13.241And within about 30 seconds, she was starting to minimize the event.
00:16:13.421 -->
00:16:14.321It's just staring dead.
00:16:14.321 -->
00:16:15.661Don't worry about it.
00:16:15.661 -->
00:16:19.101So that's the effect we have when we don't intervene.
00:16:19.381 -->
00:16:20.881We traumatize victims.
00:16:20.881 -->
00:16:25.681But we also signal to other bystanders that everything's okay.
00:16:25.681 -->
00:16:26.681That everything's fine.
00:16:26.681 -->
00:16:27.881You're okay with that.
00:16:27.881 -->
00:16:33.381And that then might make it more difficult for other people to speak up because you seem to be okay with it.
00:16:33.381 -->
00:16:37.421But also that could lead to other bystanders becoming complicit.
00:16:37.421 -->
00:16:41.421They move from the passive bystander role to the harm-doer role.
00:16:41.901 -->
00:16:55.181And if you look at current issues in policing in the UK around likes of WhatsApp groups, where you've got a big collective of people online, WhatsApp groups are used for planning nights out, a bit of fun, and you have certain jokes being shared.
00:16:55.181 -->
00:17:04.841And suddenly somebody throws in a little below-the-belt joke or comment about a female member of staff or whatever, and no one says anything.
00:17:04.841 -->
00:17:06.761And then you start to give permission, don't you?
00:17:06.761 -->
00:17:09.021That idea, everything's okay, I can keep doing this.
00:17:09.021 -->
00:17:11.201And other people start to join in because they think it's okay.
00:17:11.641 -->
00:17:13.761And then that dissent to evil then happens.
00:17:13.761 -->
00:17:26.641And we move from jokes, banter, we then move to people sharing images of pornography or dead bodies, as we've heard a lot about, derogatory comments about colleagues, sexist comments, racist comments.
00:17:26.641 -->
00:17:31.021Horrific things that officers are losing their job, rightly, quite rightly, for.
00:17:31.021 -->
00:17:33.581But a lot of these people just got sucked in.
00:17:33.581 -->
00:17:39.501In groups, I think it's called deindividuation, where you lose all sense of self in a group.
00:17:39.901 -->
00:17:43.101So we shouldn't underplay the power of being passive.
00:17:43.101 -->
00:17:47.401But if you're an active bystander, you'd speak up, you'd do something.
00:17:47.401 -->
00:17:51.641By doing so, you signal disapproval for the behavior.
00:17:51.641 -->
00:17:52.721That's wrong.
00:17:52.721 -->
00:17:56.001But by doing so, you make it okay for others to do the same.
00:17:56.001 -->
00:17:58.521I use the phrase, what you promote, you permit.
00:17:58.521 -->
00:18:05.201So if we can build cultures where we promote action, for me, action is a transgression against the norm.
00:18:05.201 -->
00:18:06.821Not speaking up is being normalized.
00:18:07.721 -->
00:18:13.381But when you flip it and you create a culture of action, then action becomes normalized.
00:18:13.381 -->
00:18:19.781And in a peer intervention culture, we're intervening before offices and staff need to report things.
00:18:19.781 -->
00:18:21.541So action is not challenging.
00:18:21.541 -->
00:18:26.201I'm not challenging you, Jason, you're doing such bad things, so and so.
00:18:26.201 -->
00:18:27.841Jason, you're my mate.
00:18:27.841 -->
00:18:30.281Are you aware of what you just said there?
00:18:30.281 -->
00:18:32.581Then action becomes supportive.
00:18:33.061 -->
00:18:34.781It's a culture of helping each other.
00:18:34.781 -->
00:18:40.821It's not covering up bad behavior or whatever or mistakes, it's actually pointing things out.
00:18:40.821 -->
00:18:49.341So for me, and the word upstander is, Irvin Stipe talks about upstander being people who are doing big things, big heroic things.
00:18:49.341 -->
00:18:53.061In peer intervention culture, it's small things.
00:18:53.061 -->
00:18:56.221It's the tap on the shoulder, it's the hey, how are you doing?
00:18:56.221 -->
00:18:57.381Are you okay?
00:18:57.381 -->
00:18:59.001Did you realize you said that?
00:18:59.001 -->
00:19:00.501It's the distractions.
00:19:00.661 -->
00:19:15.121It's not the big, scary, for the officers in police, fire, listening to this, you know it's difficult to report people, because the perception in organizations is you're the snitch, the grass, the rat, you're the troublemaker.
00:19:15.121 -->
00:19:16.741That's big reporting.
00:19:16.741 -->
00:19:22.841So let's take a step before that and help our staff act before they need to report it.
00:19:22.841 -->
00:19:24.201That's little things.
00:19:24.201 -->
00:19:38.261For me, I get why people use upstander, but I think people often associate bystander with inaction, but unless we talk about inaction, we need to help people understand why people don't intervene.
00:19:38.261 -->
00:19:46.501I was reading a paper talked about bystander support by Tyrion in 2023, and they talk about this concept of norm erosion.
00:19:46.501 -->
00:20:01.101So if you have a set of values and standards that we say are important, but then exactly as you said, the example of somebody dropped something in and nobody says something and nothing happens, that old adage that the standard you set is the one that you walk past.
00:20:01.101 -->
00:20:10.741What actually happens here isn't it, is that a norm that we accept becomes eroded a little bit, the line is moved a little further back, it's a little more acceptable to do things.
00:20:10.741 -->
00:20:21.041And that's the same thing you see with the progression of, if somebody engages in workplace incivility, that suddenly the instances of those incivility, it becomes nobody says anything.
00:20:21.101 -->
00:20:23.121So, oh, well, got away with that.
00:20:23.121 -->
00:20:36.241You know, that was, and the bully, as we know back from episode six, actually with Dorothy Susskind, there's this predictable cycle of workplace bullying, and it starts with this, and then other people get recruited into the process.
00:20:36.241 -->
00:20:54.801So, it does compound, we know that this happens, and we know how hard it is for people to stand up and, you know, fire for example, you know, 40 to 60 something percent of people who say they've experienced this or witnessed it, don't feel safe to report it for all the reasons that you've mentioned.
00:20:54.801 -->
00:20:58.661I mean, there's some really big challenges there for people who are doing that.
00:20:58.661 -->
00:21:20.741How can somebody who's witnessing workplace incivility, bullying and harassment provide that practical support as an active bystander, both to the person who's perhaps being affected, and to have that conversation with the person who's committed an act that actually isn't acceptable, but whether they realize it or not.
00:21:20.741 -->
00:21:23.721How do people tackle that in the work that you're doing?
00:21:23.721 -->
00:21:27.201You know, a part of peer intervention is giving people tools, right?
00:21:27.201 -->
00:21:29.501You know, toolkits are so important.
00:21:29.501 -->
00:21:34.481And maybe we'll talk about how we motivate people to use these tools, but some practical advice that I give people.
00:21:34.481 -->
00:21:37.601So a bystander toolkit is varied.
00:21:37.601 -->
00:21:40.261And one of the first tools is we can intervene directly.
00:21:40.261 -->
00:21:44.921And that means we can either speak to the harm-doer, the person causing the harm, or we can speak to the victim.
00:21:45.041 -->
00:21:46.281Let's look at the victim.
00:21:46.281 -->
00:21:47.001So just think about this.
00:21:47.061 -->
00:21:54.141If you were a victim of bullying, workplace insubility, harassment, what would you want a friend or colleague to say to you?
00:21:54.141 -->
00:21:56.361I said this to my daughter on the train.
00:21:56.361 -->
00:22:04.861And by the way, I didn't say this to my friend Craig, who I joined policing with many, many, many years ago, who was being bullied at work, and I said nothing, head in the sand.
00:22:04.861 -->
00:22:06.301Did absolutely nothing.
00:22:06.301 -->
00:22:08.041And that moral trauma still lives with me.
00:22:08.041 -->
00:22:10.601I didn't do anything about it, and it still sits with me.
00:22:10.601 -->
00:22:15.081But my daughter Alice, I simply said, this is wrong and not your fault.
00:22:15.081 -->
00:22:15.421That's it.
00:22:15.981 -->
00:22:18.061Victims need to hear that from friends.
00:22:18.061 -->
00:22:20.641If someone discloses harm, believe them.
00:22:20.641 -->
00:22:22.061Tell them, I believe you.
00:22:22.061 -->
00:22:23.261That wasn't your fault.
00:22:23.261 -->
00:22:24.981Validation is really important.
00:22:24.981 -->
00:22:26.781You can't fix this problem.
00:22:26.781 -->
00:22:32.661You can't make it just disappear, but you can make them feel supported, and then you can give them options.
00:22:32.661 -->
00:22:34.041We could do this, you could do this.
00:22:34.041 -->
00:22:35.781Never tell a friend what they need to do.
00:22:35.781 -->
00:22:39.281You need to tell the boss, or you need to report this to HR.
00:22:39.281 -->
00:22:43.281Because when you do that, you take agency away from the victim.
00:22:43.281 -->
00:22:44.241And that's what bullies do.
00:22:44.521 -->
00:22:46.721Bullies remove agency from victims.
00:22:46.721 -->
00:22:49.221Your job is to give power back, agency back.
00:22:49.221 -->
00:22:51.481You could do this if you want to.
00:22:51.481 -->
00:22:52.721I can help you.
00:22:52.721 -->
00:22:56.381So I think supporting and validating a victim is really important.
00:22:56.381 -->
00:22:58.961How we speak to harm doers is so important.
00:22:59.341 -->
00:23:02.761We talk about calling out cultures a lot in organizations.
00:23:02.761 -->
00:23:07.301Let's face it, calling out peers' confrontational, it's in the group.
00:23:07.301 -->
00:23:15.301And a question for you and a question for everybody listening, if you made a mistake, and let's face it, human beings, we sometimes say things we don't mean, right?
00:23:15.301 -->
00:23:16.721We've all been there, right?
00:23:16.721 -->
00:23:18.041We make mistakes.
00:23:18.041 -->
00:23:22.161And just imagine today that you upset somebody in your team, right?
00:23:22.161 -->
00:23:25.781You upset somebody in your team, your workplace, you cause the fence.
00:23:25.781 -->
00:23:26.341Think about this.
00:23:26.341 -->
00:23:27.841What would work on you?
00:23:27.841 -->
00:23:30.701And, you know, most people want taken aside.
00:23:30.701 -->
00:23:33.221They want to be told quickly, just tell me.
00:23:33.221 -->
00:23:35.761Don't muck about, don't judge me, right?
00:23:35.761 -->
00:23:37.641Think about the idea of what's happening.
00:23:37.641 -->
00:23:39.561What could be going on in the background?
00:23:39.561 -->
00:23:40.541But just get it out there.
00:23:41.081 -->
00:23:44.901And for me, we use a calling in approach and as one.
00:23:44.901 -->
00:23:48.861And a calling in approach is non-shaming, non-confrontational.
00:23:48.861 -->
00:23:50.641Of course, some behaviors need that.
00:23:50.641 -->
00:23:51.241Stop that.
00:23:51.241 -->
00:23:52.601That is totally unacceptable.
00:23:52.601 -->
00:23:57.741You know, if it's repeated or so extreme, but that's not what we talk about in peer intervention culture.
00:23:57.741 -->
00:24:00.681Earlier, we're talking about early behaviors.
00:24:00.681 -->
00:24:03.901Calling in is, hey, Jason, you're my friend.
00:24:03.901 -->
00:24:07.441You know, for me, relationships are the currency of change.
00:24:08.081 -->
00:24:11.261Using our relationships is something we often forget.
00:24:11.261 -->
00:24:17.881And, you know, there's a lovely phrase from social work that my wife taught me many years ago, connect before correct.
00:24:17.881 -->
00:24:20.101And she used to work with kids with trauma.
00:24:20.101 -->
00:24:23.941You know, a kid kicks off, behaves badly in a children's home when she was working.
00:24:23.941 -->
00:24:28.421She wouldn't just say, hey, stop that, because she knows that their trauma levels are high.
00:24:28.421 -->
00:24:30.321Their brain is dysregulated.
00:24:30.321 -->
00:24:32.321It ain't going to end well for either party.
00:24:32.321 -->
00:24:36.621So they would learn to find a way to connect, regulate with the person.
00:24:37.261 -->
00:24:45.561You know, I think it's important we learn to use that calling in approach in these early moments, because that is more likely to change behavior.
00:24:45.561 -->
00:24:47.101So that's going to work in me or you.
00:24:47.101 -->
00:24:48.641It will work in most people.
00:24:48.641 -->
00:24:50.841So we can have that non-confrontational.
00:24:50.841 -->
00:24:54.061The aim of an intervention is to change behavior.
00:24:54.061 -->
00:24:57.341It doesn't happen again to get an apology.
00:24:57.341 -->
00:24:59.961You don't do it by shouting at people, as far as I'm concerned.
00:24:59.961 -->
00:25:07.361You know, when you create that stress in somebody else, their brain is getting hijacked by cortisol, adrenaline.
00:25:07.361 -->
00:25:09.821It's that amygdala hijack, I think it's called.
00:25:09.821 -->
00:25:13.021And your human part of your brain is shutting down.
00:25:13.021 -->
00:25:14.661It's designed to keep you safe.
00:25:14.661 -->
00:25:16.781And that's going to help nobody.
00:25:16.781 -->
00:25:25.981If you go on shouting because you're stressed, you're less intelligent, the other person's stressed, less intelligent, less smart, that's just going to end up in tip for tap pushback.
00:25:25.981 -->
00:25:31.361So I think one thing I think it's important to talk about at this point, Jason, is the role of loyalty.
00:25:31.361 -->
00:25:35.241I think Chad talked a lot in that podcast about family.
00:25:35.241 -->
00:25:39.361We talk a lot about policing family, the fire service, fire and rescue family.
00:25:39.361 -->
00:25:45.181And one thing we do in As One, and I learned this from the ABLE program, was redefine loyalty.
00:25:45.181 -->
00:25:56.241Redefine what it means to be a good friend, because turning a blind eye might be loyal in one way, but it's not going to end well for you or your profession or for the person causing harm.
00:25:56.241 -->
00:25:58.921So in As One, we call it critical loyalty.
00:25:58.921 -->
00:26:04.301And critical loyalty is where you have the moral courage to tell friends what they need to hear, not what they want to hear.
00:26:04.301 -->
00:26:05.701I think you're being a better friend.
00:26:05.701 -->
00:26:10.121And if you use these relationships, we can change behaviors, mate.
00:26:10.121 -->
00:26:16.901There are people in organizations, I learned this many years ago, people who cause harm come into two brackets.
00:26:16.901 -->
00:26:19.681You'll have the actively toxic people.
00:26:19.681 -->
00:26:22.501They're the ones that they know what they're doing is wrong.
00:26:22.501 -->
00:26:25.801And they come to work and they want to disrupt people and cause harm.
00:26:25.801 -->
00:26:29.561And I think the evidence says that they are unlikely ever to change their behavior.
00:26:29.981 -->
00:26:35.421They're the ones that people need to report, right, and need to go, because they poison your culture.
00:26:35.421 -->
00:26:37.861But then you have the passively toxic harm-doer.
00:26:37.861 -->
00:26:40.301And they're the people who don't realize they're causing harm.
00:26:40.301 -->
00:26:45.261And all the research says that with the right intervention, we can change their behavior.
00:26:45.261 -->
00:26:51.261So I think it's so important that we think about not just the need to intervene, but how we do it is so important.
00:26:51.261 -->
00:27:04.941If you can nip these things in the bud early and spot them, but you're not minimizing what's happened to somebody who's being targeted, you're not, as you say, taking that agency away from them, you're not invalidating the experience they have.
00:27:04.941 -->
00:27:16.621But when you talk to a lot of people who've experienced workplace bullying and harassment, they're not all out to seek vengeance of the person that's committed harm against them.
00:27:16.621 -->
00:27:18.581Most people want it to stop.
00:27:18.581 -->
00:27:24.241They want somebody to realize what they've done, apologize for what they've done and change their behavior.
00:27:24.721 -->
00:27:29.021There have to be opportunities to do that through programs like this.
00:27:29.021 -->
00:27:34.581It's probably important to say, isn't it, when people are listening to podcasts like this, you hear about all the bad things that are happening.
00:27:34.581 -->
00:27:40.421The vast majority of people working, particularly in emergency services, same reason you went in, you want to help people.
00:27:40.501 -->
00:27:42.241You want to go in and get your job done.
00:27:42.241 -->
00:27:52.021And Dorothy said back in episode six, the people who are targeted for bullying are actually the people that tend to have quite a high ethical standard and just want to get on and do the right thing and do their job.
00:27:52.101 -->
00:27:54.321And that makes them a target for some of these people.
00:27:54.321 -->
00:28:00.561So you have to have this balance of we can cope with it when it happens, we support people when it happens.
00:28:00.561 -->
00:28:12.061But supporting people means supporting everybody involved impartially and the opportunity to change their behavior, to actually make a difference.
00:28:12.061 -->
00:28:21.021And you mentioned some of the research, I was reading one of the research papers shows that when people, there's a study done on the likelihood of people to intervene.
00:28:21.021 -->
00:28:23.681It was particularly about cyberbullying.
00:28:23.681 -->
00:28:30.061When people are friends with somebody and they have that relationship with somebody, it makes them more likely to stand up.
00:28:30.061 -->
00:28:40.861And it makes them less likely to take the side of the perpetrator, which is what perpetrators rely on in the so-called flying monkeys to do their work or to not intervene.
00:28:40.861 -->
00:28:47.421You're from a police background and you mentioned there we're talking about family, and it's often used as a family.
00:28:47.421 -->
00:28:56.141Chad talked about this, gave the example of, well, it's quite a dysfunctional family if you come in and this is the way you treat people, remember what it was like for you.
00:28:56.141 -->
00:29:19.901How can this technique really be applied to help make sure that people aren't excluded, that it's safe for people to speak up and it's safe for people, they're not going to have that risk of retaliation or retribution if they do stand up and say to somebody, particularly maybe somebody of a higher rank than them in that organization, hey, that wasn't acceptable.
00:29:19.901 -->
00:29:23.741How does that work in practice with some of the clients and experience you've had?
00:29:23.741 -->
00:29:28.501For me, another thing I learned from the Able Work was the top-down, bottom-up approach.
00:29:28.501 -->
00:29:32.461We often rely on leaders to set the tone for the culture.
00:29:32.461 -->
00:29:35.021Of course, that is so important.
00:29:35.021 -->
00:29:38.581But for me, we all benefit from culture, good culture.
00:29:38.581 -->
00:29:48.101And if we don't instill that sense of responsibility in all parts of the organization, then the risk is that we have cultures rather than culture.
00:29:48.101 -->
00:29:51.861We have different cultures which can be toxic and lead to harms.
00:29:51.861 -->
00:29:53.221And we've seen that from time to time.
00:29:53.221 -->
00:30:02.981There was an event a few years ago, I think, in The Met, Channing Cross, which highlighted really toxic teams where the alpha males were running the show.
00:30:02.981 -->
00:30:06.921And that learned helplessness has crept into the team.
00:30:06.921 -->
00:30:09.321People felt that they just couldn't do anything.
00:30:09.321 -->
00:30:11.541So we need to protect people who do speak up.
00:30:11.961 -->
00:30:14.921So that's something that I advocate with my clients.
00:30:14.921 -->
00:30:17.121What's the blowing policies?
00:30:17.121 -->
00:30:19.761To make sure people who do act are protected.
00:30:19.761 -->
00:30:21.041That's so important.
00:30:21.041 -->
00:30:26.901It's so important that this training is not just the leaders show up for five minutes, I've got a meeting to go to.
00:30:26.901 -->
00:30:28.601They need to sit in the training.
00:30:28.601 -->
00:30:30.661In my work, there's no rank.
00:30:30.661 -->
00:30:34.141You come into a room, you are the same.
00:30:34.141 -->
00:30:38.561Everybody in policing, everybody in fire and rescue, you had day one in the organization.
00:30:38.561 -->
00:30:40.101You know how difficult it is to speak up.
00:30:40.881 -->
00:30:47.021We need to hear that, we need to accept that, and stop relying on your code of ethics to force people to intervene.
00:30:47.021 -->
00:30:48.441Put the effort in.
00:30:48.441 -->
00:30:56.481For me, it's just about everybody coming together, talking about things, just talking about how they feel, correcting the misperceptions.
00:30:56.481 -->
00:31:03.921We often wrongly misperceive what our colleagues and friends think, hence why the training needs to be in person.
00:31:03.921 -->
00:31:12.041All the research says that simply dropping in a brand new diversity program, it ain't going to work, it ain't going to cut it.
00:31:12.041 -->
00:31:15.621You know, there's a particular issue in male cultures of these issues.
00:31:15.621 -->
00:31:18.001And Harvard, I think, did some research many years ago.
00:31:18.001 -->
00:31:25.041They identified masculinity contest cultures in the likes of military, policing, fire and rescue, some sports.
00:31:25.041 -->
00:31:27.721And these contest cultures lead to bad behaviors.
00:31:27.721 -->
00:31:30.581But also, I think, leads to the silence of men.
00:31:30.581 -->
00:31:33.601And what they said is needed is a deep dive into your aims.
00:31:33.601 -->
00:31:34.901What's your mission?
00:31:34.901 -->
00:31:36.761We need to get back to basics.
00:31:37.341 -->
00:31:39.521We need to correct misperceptions.
00:31:39.761 -->
00:31:46.201The fact is that most men are uncomfortable when they hear a friend use sexist, derogatory, homophobic language.
00:31:46.201 -->
00:31:50.441But because we don't really know what our friends think, that can inhibit our intervention.
00:31:50.441 -->
00:31:52.501So we need to correct the misperceptions.
00:31:52.501 -->
00:31:54.381You know, raise your hands if you think.
00:31:54.381 -->
00:31:55.301Who agrees with this?
00:31:55.661 -->
00:32:00.901And get people to work together in small groups, large groups, to listen to each other.
00:32:00.901 -->
00:32:08.301So I think, you know, for me, the point that's been missing in the past is that culture has been seen as the, oh, that's too expensive to do that.
00:32:08.301 -->
00:32:10.301Let's just do the e-learning training.
00:32:10.301 -->
00:32:10.681It's done.
00:32:10.681 -->
00:32:13.621And for people who do e-learning training, it's important for some things.
00:32:13.621 -->
00:32:15.041There's no doubt about that.
00:32:15.041 -->
00:32:18.241But for your culture, it's just not going to cut it.
00:32:18.241 -->
00:32:19.601So for me, that's what is needed.
00:32:19.601 -->
00:32:22.581It's just open, honest conversations.
00:32:22.581 -->
00:32:24.121Take the rank out of it.
00:32:24.121 -->
00:32:25.581Let's come together.
00:32:25.581 -->
00:32:27.001Who are we coming together for?
00:32:27.001 -->
00:32:31.341We're coming together for our communities, our profession, our colleagues.
00:32:31.341 -->
00:32:34.001Let's extend helping people to helping each other.
00:32:34.001 -->
00:32:38.381And lots of the stories in the last few years in policing, especially here in the UK.
00:32:38.381 -->
00:32:42.301I would suggest that we haven't been loyal to our colleagues.
00:32:42.301 -->
00:32:44.441We haven't been working as a team.
00:32:44.441 -->
00:32:45.281Why?
00:32:45.281 -->
00:32:47.721Because we've allowed our colleagues to lose their jobs.
00:32:47.721 -->
00:32:50.121We've allowed that behavior to keep going.
00:32:50.121 -->
00:32:52.001The car crash is going to keep coming.
00:32:52.001 -->
00:32:52.641And then it happens.
00:32:52.641 -->
00:32:54.221It's too late.
00:32:54.221 -->
00:33:02.641And so for me, it's just looking at what we don't act, who is harmed and giving people that motivation.
00:33:02.641 -->
00:33:04.601Friends don't let friends lose their careers.
00:33:04.921 -->
00:33:08.501Friends don't let friends struggle with their poor well-being.
00:33:08.501 -->
00:33:09.041Yeah.
00:33:09.041 -->
00:33:12.901Examples of people in a minority, we know there's a gender imbalance.
00:33:12.901 -->
00:33:22.361If you look at a lot of fire and rescue services and the career path, it's 95-5 or thereabouts in terms of the male-female gender balance.
00:33:22.361 -->
00:33:40.401And a quote that popped up in one of the research papers I was reading around this, they were looking at racial discrimination, but their study said that exit interviews with minority employees often reveal it's not inappropriate remarks made by individuals that sting, but the silence of a wide array of bystanders.
00:33:40.401 -->
00:33:51.041When I've spoken to female firefighters in particular and other women in leadership positions, one of the things you've kind of touched on there is this need for male allyship.
00:33:51.041 -->
00:34:00.801The equality argument and the equality groups, whether it's about sexuality or racism or sexism, it's not for that group to solve the problem.
00:34:01.081 -->
00:34:06.401It's the 95 that need to help the 5 by saying, this isn't acceptable.
00:34:06.401 -->
00:34:18.881It's the men that need to stand up to make sure that the kind of behaviour we've seen in the press reports around unacceptable language and attitudes towards women and racial minorities is just not accepted.
00:34:18.881 -->
00:34:19.801Yeah.
00:34:19.801 -->
00:34:22.841Another side passion I have is engaging men in that work.
00:34:22.841 -->
00:34:28.781Because you're spot on, you know, let's face it, most violence in this world is committed by men, against men.
00:34:28.781 -->
00:34:29.861That's a fact.
00:34:29.861 -->
00:34:31.701But we know that most men don't commit violence.
00:34:31.701 -->
00:34:33.081That's a fact as well.
00:34:33.081 -->
00:34:36.201We know that sexual violence, domestic abuse, sexual harassment.
00:34:36.201 -->
00:34:37.321Yeah, men are victims too.
00:34:37.321 -->
00:34:44.621Women do commit these things, but the vast majority that we know about of victims are women and girls, and perpetrators are guys.
00:34:44.621 -->
00:34:46.781But most guys don't commit that.
00:34:46.781 -->
00:34:48.521We've talked earlier on about our silence.
00:34:48.521 -->
00:34:50.701What does our silence communicate?
00:34:50.701 -->
00:34:57.921We need more men because our masculinity, in my view, has been defined by the worst behaviors that we're willing to accept.
00:34:57.921 -->
00:35:01.521We need to stop telling men you need to speak up because that doesn't work.
00:35:01.521 -->
00:35:08.401That has been found not to be an effective approach or telling men that bad things will happen to you if you do bad things.
00:35:08.401 -->
00:35:17.821A more effective way is to just engage men in conversation, correct the misperceptions, and give them the tools and confidence to be able to have these conversations.
00:35:17.821 -->
00:35:21.341A big motivator for bystanders is finding your friends.
00:35:21.341 -->
00:35:22.741Find your friends, find your allies.
00:35:23.061 -->
00:35:26.141Then you've got a tool, engage allies.
00:35:26.821 -->
00:35:36.201I think it's important that organizations like police and fire lean into the uncomfortable reality that this is predominantly a male issue.
00:35:36.201 -->
00:35:38.201Don't think I'm having a go at guys here.
00:35:38.201 -->
00:35:40.801For the men listening, don't think I'm attacking you.
00:35:40.801 -->
00:35:43.401But it's a fact, we often don't speak up.
00:35:43.401 -->
00:35:52.101And you're right, Jason, when we don't speak up, we leave our victims, our colleagues, who we trust with our lives sometimes, to be exposed to harm and violence.
00:35:52.301 -->
00:35:54.881And we're not being a good team player or loyal to these people.
00:35:54.881 -->
00:35:55.921We let them down.
00:35:55.921 -->
00:35:57.601And you let yourself down, don't you?
00:35:57.601 -->
00:36:02.321You don't follow the values that you were taught by your parents, by your coaches, by your teachers.
00:36:02.321 -->
00:36:05.201We need to tap into that moral compass as well.
00:36:05.201 -->
00:36:11.001And that, in a team environment, you look back at how the bullying cycle takes place.
00:36:11.001 -->
00:36:18.521The person who's being targeted, they're having their confidence undermined, they're being shamed perhaps in public scenarios with others.
00:36:18.621 -->
00:36:27.881And then when nobody stands up to defend them or say that, whether that's probably not always safe to stand up at the time, you've mentioned around, it's one of the cautions, isn't it?
00:36:27.881 -->
00:36:34.221Of active bystandership is, are active bystanders doing this for themselves or for the person concerned?
00:36:34.221 -->
00:36:40.861So thinking around it, you know, it's not about you're standing up to make yourself feel good that you've stood up.
00:36:40.861 -->
00:36:43.601Sometimes that person may not be safe to stand up.
00:36:43.601 -->
00:36:46.861It might make them a target for more bullying and harassment.
00:36:47.161 -->
00:36:53.581So, that more subtle level of support, but helping people to say, how do you want to take this forward?
00:36:53.581 -->
00:36:55.761But that's about having the conversation, isn't it?
00:36:55.761 -->
00:37:01.561The conversation with the person who's affected, and then working out the right conversation to have with the person.
00:37:01.561 -->
00:37:07.381It might be a formal route, it might be supporting them, or it might be a, how do you want me to intervene?
00:37:07.381 -->
00:37:11.541Not I'm going to intervene, how do you want me to have that conversation?
00:37:11.541 -->
00:37:13.321I think it's especially an issue with supervisors.
00:37:14.181 -->
00:37:17.101For example, I use a scenario called Mimic.
00:37:17.101 -->
00:37:22.501So a colleague is mimicking a colleague's accent, their Irish or whatever the accent is.
00:37:22.501 -->
00:37:26.941Other people there, some people laugh, it's clear the person's fed up, people are doing nothing.
00:37:26.941 -->
00:37:28.721It's just a basic scenario.
00:37:28.721 -->
00:37:33.701And when we get to the point of what would you do, some people are ready to address it there and then.
00:37:33.701 -->
00:37:35.281Then I say, well stop, think.
00:37:35.281 -->
00:37:36.941Actions have consequences.
00:37:36.941 -->
00:37:40.921If you dive in there and call out the behavior, how's the victim feeling?
00:37:41.601 -->
00:37:44.721Their coping strategy might be, hey, I can deal with this.
00:37:44.721 -->
00:37:48.621You've made it 10 times worse because now this has come out.
00:37:48.621 -->
00:37:50.841So could you delay your response?
00:37:50.841 -->
00:37:52.601Could you create a little distraction?
00:37:52.601 -->
00:37:58.061Just move the meeting on, change the subject, just go elsewhere, just take the person away.
00:37:58.061 -->
00:38:04.221Then have that follow-up conversation later that day or the next day when you're ready to have that conversation.
00:38:04.221 -->
00:38:07.561And I might come to the victim and say, hey, that was wrong.
00:38:07.601 -->
00:38:08.701In a sense, you're uncomfortable.
00:38:08.701 -->
00:38:10.781You didn't deserve that, so the validation.
00:38:10.781 -->
00:38:12.201What do you want to do?
00:38:12.201 -->
00:38:15.681And if the person says to you, listen, hey, thank you for coming to speak to me.
00:38:15.681 -->
00:38:17.141I want nothing else done.
00:38:17.141 -->
00:38:19.101You have to accept that.
00:38:19.101 -->
00:38:25.861But here's the thing, you were at the meeting, you have a right to be upset with the person that caused that.
00:38:25.861 -->
00:38:29.781And maybe Jason, you've been the one that's caused that harm and you're my close friend.
00:38:29.781 -->
00:38:33.781And I know that if you keep doing this, this could have negative implications for you.
00:38:34.301 -->
00:38:37.881So I could move the focus on the harm-doer to me.
00:38:37.881 -->
00:38:39.581Hey, I was upset Jason by that.
00:38:39.581 -->
00:38:43.801And I owe it to you to tell you that this could go wrong for you.
00:38:43.801 -->
00:38:47.381So it's just a little thing that, make it personal, you and me.
00:38:47.381 -->
00:38:50.321Use your relationship and leave the victim out of it.
00:38:50.321 -->
00:38:52.481You don't have to involve the victim in that.
00:38:52.481 -->
00:38:56.441But if I don't stop you doing this, you're gonna lose your job.
00:38:56.441 -->
00:38:57.801I'm not being a good friend.
00:38:57.801 -->
00:39:01.541In that situation as well, you're not making it about the target.
00:39:01.881 -->
00:39:08.761It's a conversation about observed behavior that you've seen with what somebody has done.
00:39:08.761 -->
00:39:12.041That doesn't implicate that particular person.
00:39:12.041 -->
00:39:21.441It doesn't stop the deviant behavior from some people who will just pick up, they're gonna pick on the target anyway, because that's their agenda in some cases.
00:39:21.441 -->
00:39:29.061The people who are genuinely, oh my God, I genuinely didn't realize that that was coming across in that particular way.
00:39:29.961 -->
00:39:35.661I saw a really good post on somebody talking about a relatively neutral way to introduce this into a conversation.
00:39:35.661 -->
00:39:38.801And the example they had was sort of the leader in the meeting.
00:39:38.801 -->
00:39:41.381Somebody had said something really inappropriate.
00:39:41.381 -->
00:39:56.961He said, the chair of the meeting person used their authority to just step in and rather than criticizing or berating that person, they just said, why don't we rewind a couple of minutes and let's just have this conversation again and see if we want to have it in the same way.
00:39:57.621 -->
00:40:02.281You know, the result of that was actually, it created this kind of psychological safety.
00:40:02.281 -->
00:40:10.781It wasn't humiliating somebody in front of their peers, which then causes them embarrassment and may cause them to take those reactions.
00:40:10.781 -->
00:40:17.001But it was saying to the group, actually, I don't think we're making a productive contribution in this discussion.
00:40:17.001 -->
00:40:18.741Let's just start again.
00:40:18.741 -->
00:40:22.141And what happened in that particular meeting was it opened up the discussion.
00:40:22.141 -->
00:40:33.301People were able to reflect, so people can go, well, actually, that didn't go quite well, but there's a safe exit to then have a much more productive conversation that did engage more people.
00:40:33.301 -->
00:40:37.521I thought that was quite a nice neutral way to tackle what could have been.
00:40:37.521 -->
00:40:41.921We've all been in those meetings where you think, this is going a bit badly, what do I do?
00:40:41.921 -->
00:40:58.881Do I privately send the text to somebody who's being attacked here to show them support, which is actually a very good way to show allyship, but actually somebody recognizing what's happening around to just bring things back into a more neutral and productive and constructive way of dealing with it.
00:40:58.881 -->
00:41:03.121That's a little way of it's an indirect, it's not confronting the behavior.
00:41:03.121 -->
00:41:06.201There'll be people in that room who probably thought that was wrong.
00:41:06.201 -->
00:41:09.861But because no one else is saying anything, they're thinking, is it just me?
00:41:09.861 -->
00:41:17.541But the fact that this person has redirected the conversation, a little time out in many ways, it just communicates, yeah, there's something wrong here.
00:41:17.541 -->
00:41:20.441I was right and I know that these people support me.
00:41:20.441 -->
00:41:22.441It will force that self-reflection.
00:41:22.441 -->
00:41:27.421Even during this training, I know in my rooms, people self-reflect.
00:41:27.501 -->
00:41:33.261I've had people come up to me and say to me in trainings, hey, you made me think about my jokes and how I might be upsetting people.
00:41:33.261 -->
00:41:34.541Thanks for that.
00:41:34.541 -->
00:41:42.781So even the bystander approach is a great way to engage people, to force people to think about past behaviors.
00:41:42.781 -->
00:41:44.741It's a great way to validate victims.
00:41:44.741 -->
00:41:47.501In your rooms, you will have victims sitting in your room.
00:41:47.501 -->
00:41:48.881We haven't disclosed yet.
00:41:48.881 -->
00:42:02.341And if we create a productive conversation around validating experiences, people are never to blame for what happens, you start to really create that community that I think is missing within policing just now.
00:42:02.341 -->
00:42:08.141Having that conversation with a team and allowing people to be able to get their perspectives out.
00:42:08.141 -->
00:42:24.741One of the things that I've done with teams in the high-performing culture workshops and the way of helping a team come together is to be able to allow a team to set those norms of what they want the behavior to be and what works for that individual team.
00:42:24.741 -->
00:42:35.281We know the characteristics of what makes a high-performing team, what makes a positive culture, but allowing a team to discuss that in a way that you turn into, so how am I going to do this?
00:42:35.281 -->
00:42:40.801And that's the focus of the high-performing culture workshop that I've run with a number of organizations.
00:42:40.801 -->
00:42:42.681That gives people that safe route, doesn't it?
00:42:42.681 -->
00:42:52.981Because people can say and knows what I've observed in those workshops is, if you're going around and saying these are the standards we want to have as a team, how do we want to approach some of these situations?
00:42:52.981 -->
00:42:56.981Well, the answer is on the board, but you don't necessarily know who put it there.
00:42:56.981 -->
00:43:07.641It's safe for somebody who's experienced that, in a lot of cases, to put that up there and then for the team to discuss those kind of things that might be real issues that are affecting them.
00:43:07.641 -->
00:43:11.181I remember doing that with a team of mine when I first started.
00:43:11.181 -->
00:43:16.741It's a team that had been dealing with a lot of conflict, and I'd had one-to-ones with all of the team members.
00:43:16.741 -->
00:43:21.561So I have a big list of all the problems that people were having with other people directly.
00:43:21.561 -->
00:43:27.141But by doing it in a group workshop setting, we were playing the ball, not the person.
00:43:27.141 -->
00:43:32.781And we're talking about the issue, not, A has been unpleasant to me and I don't like this.
00:43:32.781 -->
00:43:37.621It was actually refocusing it on the behavior, the impact that has on other people.
00:43:37.621 -->
00:43:41.261And that's when you got other votes for that particular thing coming up.
00:43:41.261 -->
00:43:44.401So everybody can see, I'm not alone.
00:43:44.401 -->
00:43:47.661The person who might have done that behavior probably figures out that it is them.
00:43:48.041 -->
00:43:50.381But they can see four or five ticks on the board.
00:43:50.381 -->
00:43:54.141So they think, give them that moment of reflection, doesn't it?
00:43:54.141 -->
00:43:54.701Yeah.
00:43:54.701 -->
00:44:01.941What you're talking about there is interesting, because it connects with some work I'm looking at just now around stress and trauma and policing and fire.
00:44:01.941 -->
00:44:09.321You know, I think it's something we really need to pay more attention to, not separate it from mistakes or bad behavior, but connect it all up.
00:44:09.321 -->
00:44:13.321Policing just now operates and fire, I think it's the same as well.
00:44:13.321 -->
00:44:15.741And any high risk organization, I think you can connect here.
00:44:16.201 -->
00:44:24.621When stress is prolonged, persistent and extreme, staff will find it really difficult to regulate, to become dysregulated.
00:44:24.621 -->
00:44:38.841A classic example was in the US where a sergeant attended a firearms call on his own, and he got out of his car, his body worn camera's on, and very quickly he just empties his gun into his own choker.
00:44:39.981 -->
00:44:42.961There was a suspect in the car, thankfully, he didn't get hurt.
00:44:42.961 -->
00:44:45.541What had happened was an acorn had fell on his shoulder.
00:44:46.021 -->
00:44:49.241And he'd overreacted to the mildest of stimuli.
00:44:49.241 -->
00:44:50.261That's dysregulation.
00:44:50.261 -->
00:44:53.101Your body goes into fight or flight constantly.
00:44:53.101 -->
00:45:03.741And what you're describing there, Jason, is what Bruce Perry, the neuroscience trauma expert, talks about providing a buffer to this dysregulation.
00:45:03.741 -->
00:45:07.021And the buffer is community, social connection.
00:45:07.021 -->
00:45:14.621Many organizations in policing and fire are rushing for the brand new anti-suicide, suicide prevention training program.
00:45:15.261 -->
00:45:19.861What he says is the big things, yeah, they're important, but it's the small things.
00:45:19.861 -->
00:45:20.801It's the thank yous.
00:45:20.801 -->
00:45:22.641It's the, hey, that's a great job there.
00:45:22.641 -->
00:45:24.101It was, how are you doing?
00:45:24.521 -->
00:45:25.561It's the nice emails.
00:45:25.561 -->
00:45:27.521It's the chats over the coffee machine.
00:45:27.521 -->
00:45:30.301It's the canteen conversation.
00:45:30.301 -->
00:45:34.121And these little, he calls them therapeutic dosing.
00:45:34.121 -->
00:45:44.341Therapeutic doses are actually really great ways of providing the buffer to the stress that I think we need to really talk about.
00:45:44.441 -->
00:45:48.441And it's, for me, we need to build community in policing and fire.
00:45:48.441 -->
00:45:50.021And that's a great example you've talked about.
00:45:50.021 -->
00:45:56.801Just giving ownership, you know, recognizing people's strengths, realizing you don't have all the answers showing vulnerability.
00:45:56.801 -->
00:45:57.821You're all human.
00:45:57.821 -->
00:46:02.541For me, that's a great buffer to wider issues of stress and trauma.
00:46:02.541 -->
00:46:04.121And it's about servant leadership.
00:46:04.261 -->
00:46:13.141That example I was giving you of the way, you know, sort of run that workshop is if you're a leader in a team, you know, the situational leadership, sometimes you need to take control and set the direction.
00:46:13.701 -->
00:46:18.581Mostly, servant leadership has been shown to improve the performance of those teams.
00:46:18.581 -->
00:46:22.701And actually by going through and saying to the team, how do we want this to work?
00:46:22.841 -->
00:46:33.741And what do you need from me as a hierarchical leader to be able to allow you to work in the way that is most productive for us all to become a high-performing culture?
00:46:33.741 -->
00:46:43.481The only thing I learned from when I piloted Aswan with West Yorkshire Police was, what came out in our evaluation was, officers find it difficult to have these early conversations.
00:46:43.481 -->
00:46:51.781Noticing signs of burnout, stress, people struggling with workloads, issues at home that are coming to work, that's the time to intervene.
00:46:51.781 -->
00:46:59.381Let's not wait for a colleague to get to such a level of poor wellness that we need to activate our suicide prevention training.
00:46:59.381 -->
00:47:03.721And for me, it's earliest is best, but better late than never.
00:47:03.721 -->
00:47:12.681And as one provides the support, provides the tools and the confidence to be able to, hey, you okay, Jason?
00:47:12.681 -->
00:47:13.441Hey, are you okay?
00:47:13.441 -->
00:47:14.781I've noticed.
00:47:14.781 -->
00:47:16.821I'm really concerned about you.
00:47:16.821 -->
00:47:18.161Let's get some help for you.
00:47:18.161 -->
00:47:21.101Because that could impact on me and my operational ability.
00:47:21.141 -->
00:47:27.741If I've got a colleague in fire and rescue who is really stressed, I don't want to go to a call with them.
00:47:28.421 -->
00:47:36.441We need to really help our staff act early in moments, because that's the time where we stop things from becoming the bigger issue.
00:47:36.441 -->
00:47:39.561Yeah, and understanding the bigger picture of what's happening in their life.
00:47:39.561 -->
00:47:40.481What's going on?
00:47:40.481 -->
00:47:41.221You know, people are...
00:47:41.221 -->
00:47:42.221Yeah, what's happened to you?
00:47:42.221 -->
00:47:45.841Yeah, if you don't understand and know the people you're working with.
00:47:45.841 -->
00:47:52.661There was one other area I just wanted to touch on, and how you kind of avoid this in the active bystander training.
00:47:52.661 -->
00:47:57.121One of the things that you can see happening in workplace bullying is mobbing.
00:47:57.641 -->
00:48:15.881We often see retaliation happening against a target of workplace bullying because people rally around in the bullying terms, the reference to the Wizard of Oz, the flying monkeys, people who will do the dirty work of the actual perpetrator, so they don't have to is the analogy there.
00:48:15.881 -->
00:48:25.281If we're encouraging people to stand up and support their mates and say, you know how this is you're my mate, I don't want you to have a problem with your career.
00:48:25.281 -->
00:48:38.501How do you stop that slipping into the scenario where they're backing up somebody and picking a side when something has happened and actually causing more harm?
00:48:38.501 -->
00:48:51.401What are the safeguards in the way you approach the training to ensure the ethics are there to say you can't be a part of this, but you want to support people to do the right thing even when it may not be in their career interest?
00:48:51.401 -->
00:49:01.441You know, for me, I think it's getting across to people that the uncomfortable reality is that any one of us is capable of causing harm, even our best friends, our family members.
00:49:01.441 -->
00:49:05.901So that myth of the monster, that it's only monsters who do bad things, they're all capable of it.
00:49:05.901 -->
00:49:10.941So getting across to people that, you know, people who cause harm are our friends, right?
00:49:10.941 -->
00:49:15.161They're our brothers, our sisters, our people in our circle of friends, our family members.
00:49:15.921 -->
00:49:22.221Two, we need to get across that in the main, victims don't make stuff up.
00:49:22.221 -->
00:49:23.941And look at the major stories in the world.
00:49:23.941 -->
00:49:26.761Here in the UK, think of the post office scandal.
00:49:26.761 -->
00:49:28.301Think of Harrods.
00:49:28.301 -->
00:49:31.701Think of the BBC with Jimmy Savile, Hugh Edwards.
00:49:31.701 -->
00:49:34.141Think of Harvey Weinstein, Jeffrey Epstein.
00:49:34.141 -->
00:49:40.881Think of the Rotherham and Rochdale child sex gangs we saw in parts of England the last decade or so, where we didn't believe people.
00:49:40.881 -->
00:49:44.941We didn't believe, we didn't believe the post office owners who were saying, there's a mistake here.
00:49:45.641 -->
00:49:48.081The reality, folks, is your friends are not liars.
00:49:48.081 -->
00:49:51.641Your colleagues are not in the game of making stuff up.
00:49:51.641 -->
00:49:56.181We know sexual violence, 2 to 4% of allegations have been found to be false.
00:49:56.181 -->
00:49:59.461So we need to start thinking, has something happened here?
00:49:59.461 -->
00:50:01.261We can still be a supportive colleague.
00:50:01.261 -->
00:50:06.121We don't have to take sides and turn our focus on the victim just because that sense of loyalty.
00:50:06.121 -->
00:50:08.881So we also need to talk about loyalty as well.
00:50:08.881 -->
00:50:14.781You know, that's why it's so important that we redefine what it means to be, you know, a good friend, a loyal friend.
00:50:15.001 -->
00:50:18.961Listen, I'm not naïve to think that my work is going to stop that, Jason.
00:50:18.961 -->
00:50:22.721You know, there's many reasons why people tend to side with certain people.
00:50:22.721 -->
00:50:27.381But we need to start facing the reality is that a victim is our colleague.
00:50:27.381 -->
00:50:29.321We need to look out for them as well.
00:50:29.321 -->
00:50:30.381They will look out for you.
00:50:30.381 -->
00:50:34.761You know, if you need help, they will come and help you in our operational shout, call, whatever.
00:50:34.761 -->
00:50:36.081So we need to help them.
00:50:36.081 -->
00:50:38.661They're unlikely to be lying.
00:50:38.661 -->
00:50:40.801The reality is they will be telling facts.
00:50:40.801 -->
00:50:42.121Something has happened to them.
00:50:42.981 -->
00:50:47.981And the uncomfortable reality, folks, is that your mate could have done this.
00:50:47.981 -->
00:50:55.601And we need to just think about, maybe we can speak to our friend and say, hey, listen, if this is early, you can deal with this.
00:50:55.601 -->
00:50:58.021Just go and sort it out.
00:50:58.021 -->
00:51:00.361You know, we can get this dealt with really early.
00:51:00.361 -->
00:51:15.841And I think that's another plus side of early intervening is we nip things quickly before it gets to that misconduct, before we get to the idea where people seem forced to take sides because of that sense of family, that sense of loyalty.
00:51:15.841 -->
00:51:16.981So it's really hard.
00:51:16.981 -->
00:51:19.761This is hard stuff that we're talking about.
00:51:19.761 -->
00:51:22.901But, and we need to accept that this ain't going to work all the time.
00:51:22.901 -->
00:51:26.461We often get asked the question, this isn't going to work all the time.
00:51:26.461 -->
00:51:31.521And our response to the American police is, well, see that bulletproof vest you wear every day.
00:51:31.521 -->
00:51:34.821Is that going to stop every bullet that comes your way?
00:51:34.821 -->
00:51:35.481No, it's not.
00:51:35.481 -->
00:51:37.121Well, why do you keep wearing it then?
00:51:37.121 -->
00:51:38.381We've got to try it.
00:51:38.381 -->
00:51:47.821So just thinking about how we can act in these early moments, to stop things from moving to that bit where we feel forced to take sides or it gets really messy.
00:51:47.821 -->
00:51:55.681Because you're right, when we get to that level of tit-and-tat and people taking sides, it gets really messy for all involved as well.
00:51:55.681 -->
00:52:02.961So it's hard, but I think the conversations we create will hopefully prevent the need for people to take sides.
00:52:03.121 -->
00:52:04.741And that's a real place for this.
00:52:04.781 -->
00:52:15.101I mean, there'll be some more, there's other episodes coming on the mechanics for people who might be involved in professional standards units or anti-bullying units.
00:52:16.621 -->
00:52:22.921As you said, it's a very, very small minority of complaints that are actually vexatious or malicious.
00:52:22.921 -->
00:52:25.081But equally, sometimes they do happen.
00:52:25.241 -->
00:52:28.521And that's where the organization has got to be prepared.
00:52:28.521 -->
00:52:38.661But that's where a fair, impartial and comprehensive investigation process or complaint process actually tends to identify that if it's done properly.
00:52:38.661 -->
00:52:58.501But exactly the point you've said, one of the most difficult situations for people who are actually doing those kind of investigations is when people bystanders, don't pick a side, you know, actually that impartiality and fairness of looking at things at the evidence is part of what should come out in the wash.
00:52:58.561 -->
00:53:10.821And certainly the, you know, very justified feelings that many people have that by standing up, there's going to be fear and of retaliation and retribution and further incivility from others.
00:53:10.821 -->
00:53:18.161All that's doing is undermining the whole picture that people who are affected and that leads to this perpetuation of things.
00:53:18.161 -->
00:53:24.041One of the things we're both interested in, I know, is the book by the late Phillip Zimbardo, The Lucifer Effect.
00:53:24.121 -->
00:53:24.641Oh, I know.
00:53:24.641 -->
00:53:27.041Why good people turn evil.
00:53:27.041 -->
00:53:46.601It's a great example in that book of how, with his work in the Stanford Prison Experiment, people who have actually no malicious intent, the system itself through action and inaction, causes people to behave in ways that actually they wouldn't.
00:53:46.601 -->
00:53:48.601We've seen that in persistent abuses.
00:53:48.601 -->
00:53:50.841I think that it was a really interesting book for me.
00:53:50.841 -->
00:53:51.941I read it several years ago.
00:53:53.001 -->
00:54:04.921And keep going back to it, because it's something people have to remember, that actually what you don't do, and what you allow to happen, actually makes you complicit, the evil of inaction.
00:54:04.921 -->
00:54:07.641I had the pleasure a couple of years ago to meet Phillip Zimbardo.
00:54:07.641 -->
00:54:18.281And it was really, not a lot of people know this, but three or four days into the experiment, his now wife said to him, if you don't stop this experiment, I'm going to dump you.
00:54:19.381 -->
00:54:24.541Because he had become completely oblivious to the situation he was creating.
00:54:24.541 -->
00:54:27.021And he said it, we had a laugh about it.
00:54:27.021 -->
00:54:29.301He had become the bystander.
00:54:29.301 -->
00:54:36.741He was oblivious to the situation that he was creating in that dungeon that he created in the Stanford University.
00:54:36.741 -->
00:54:38.521And he stopped the experiment.
00:54:38.521 -->
00:54:47.121And he talks a lot about that, the Abu Ghraib abuses that took place during the First Iraq War, and helping people to understand what led to that situation.
00:54:47.121 -->
00:54:52.741The CIA giving the space, giving the permission for people to behave in certain ways.
00:54:52.741 -->
00:54:57.121And he was a prison superintendent, and he stood back and allowed it to manifest.
00:54:57.121 -->
00:55:00.641And his now wife, thankfully, he stopped it and they're married and they lived a great life.
00:55:00.641 -->
00:55:03.401And what a guy, his legacy.
00:55:03.581 -->
00:55:13.581It had a great impact on me, and I think any leader listening to this, The Lucifer Effect is not your usually go-to leadership book, but for me, it talks a lot about the psychology.
00:55:13.581 -->
00:55:19.381And I think what we've talked today, Jason, is not a policing issue, a fire issue, it's a human issue.
00:55:19.381 -->
00:55:27.801And the quicker we start looking at the human condition, fear, you mentioned the bystander effect right at the start.
00:55:27.801 -->
00:55:31.741The bystander effect is often relied upon as the reason people don't speak up.
00:55:32.001 -->
00:55:34.041No, bigger the groups, the less likely.
00:55:34.041 -->
00:55:38.201It's fear, fear in the likes of fire and policing is not a physical fear.
00:55:38.201 -->
00:55:41.701I don't think staff fear physical violence from their colleagues.
00:55:41.701 -->
00:55:43.321It's a fear of isolation.
00:55:43.321 -->
00:55:47.061It's a fear of being ridiculed, fear of losing friends.
00:55:47.061 -->
00:55:53.261Catherine Sanderson, who wrote a good book about bystandership, she talks about the neuroscience that's coming out recently around this.
00:55:53.261 -->
00:55:57.001When you hurt yourself physically, there's a pain receptor lights up in the brain.
00:55:57.001 -->
00:56:00.661The same pain receptor lights up when you fear losing a friend.
00:56:01.701 -->
00:56:02.421And exclusion.
00:56:02.421 -->
00:56:03.181Social fear.
00:56:03.181 -->
00:56:04.241And exclusion.
00:56:04.241 -->
00:56:06.641Dorothy Susskind talked about that in episode 6.
00:56:06.641 -->
00:56:07.121Same way.
00:56:07.461 -->
00:56:08.641We need to acknowledge that.
00:56:08.641 -->
00:56:11.161That's why a code of ethics ain't enough, folks.
00:56:11.161 -->
00:56:20.441You know, one of the interesting, probably humbling and quite rewarding things since I've started doing these podcasts is, we talk about people not necessarily being under physical threat.
00:56:20.441 -->
00:56:22.861You know, that evil in action.
00:56:22.861 -->
00:56:35.101And I think anybody who's running a complaint or a professional standard unit, that book should be required reading because understanding how the process itself and in action can cause something to happen.
00:56:35.101 -->
00:56:48.721I've had conversations with female firefighters from around the world, and a number of people who've contacted me have said, actually, I do have a fear of physical harm, not necessarily that somebody's going to turn around and hit me.
00:56:48.721 -->
00:57:08.281But if I go into a building and I can't rely on that person and I'm receiving these kind of threats from people, implicit threats and suggestions and incivility, not things that hit the threshold for bullying when you talk to your employment lawyers, but incivility, it puts people at risk.
00:57:08.281 -->
00:57:09.561It's the old mob thing of all.
00:57:09.561 -->
00:57:14.041Well, if you pay your insurance on the house, you might have a nasty accident.
00:57:14.041 -->
00:57:21.581Nobody should ever go to work afraid and certainly not afraid as a result of standing up.
00:57:21.581 -->
00:57:31.901And when people are watching and people see it happening and they don't do anything, that's the evil of inaction.
00:57:31.901 -->
00:57:33.621And it's lasting for me, Jason.
00:57:33.621 -->
00:57:36.401The easy conversation is the good versus evil.
00:57:36.401 -->
00:57:42.061It's such an easy conversation, separating the good people, the heroes from the villains, the bad people.
00:57:42.061 -->
00:57:48.041And that, I think, allows us to not have the conversation that maybe we're part of the problem.
00:57:48.041 -->
00:57:52.181We are part of the problem in creating these harm doers.
00:57:52.261 -->
00:57:53.861I don't like the phrase bad apples.
00:57:53.861 -->
00:57:55.261It's a flawed phrase.
00:57:55.261 -->
00:57:58.261Harm doers, the system, we are part of the system.
00:57:58.261 -->
00:58:05.681And if we're inactive, we join in, if we turn away, then we're just keeping this harm going.
00:58:05.681 -->
00:58:08.841And harm will keep going all day until we stop it.
00:58:08.841 -->
00:58:20.621And I think that's the legacy of The Lucifer Effect and Phillip Zimbardo is we need to have braver conversations that look at the reasons why we see the good going bad and importantly, how do we make the good do more good?
00:58:21.041 -->
00:58:28.461If people want to get a hold of you, Graham, what's the best place for them to find out more about you and the program that you've developed?
00:58:28.461 -->
00:58:31.501Well, you know, I've got a website, grahamgolden.com.
00:58:31.501 -->
00:58:33.441You can contact me there.
00:58:33.441 -->
00:58:38.041I write a lot of blogs on this topic and other similar topics as well.
00:58:38.041 -->
00:58:44.561On social media, I do it quite active on LinkedIn, but if you're on Blue Sky Community, please check me out as well.
00:58:44.561 -->
00:58:48.581And I will come across as a bit of a bystander geek in my posts.
00:58:48.621 -->
00:58:52.201And listen, last thing, it's okay to disagree with each other, isn't it?
00:58:52.201 -->
00:58:54.921If I disagree with you online, that's okay.
00:58:54.921 -->
00:58:55.801That's okay to disagree.
00:58:55.801 -->
00:58:59.821And I think just now we need to come together and find the commonality.
00:58:59.821 -->
00:59:04.141I think deep down, most of us agree with each other on some of the stuff we've been talking about today.
00:59:04.141 -->
00:59:07.061So we might have different approaches, but let's have some decent conversations.
00:59:07.061 -->
00:59:08.481Civility costs nothing.
00:59:08.481 -->
00:59:09.361Yeah, exactly.
00:59:09.361 -->
00:59:09.821Thank you.
00:59:09.821 -->
00:59:10.281That's okay.
00:59:10.281 -->
00:59:13.761And we'll put all the links to that in the show notes for people to find.
00:59:13.761 -->
00:59:14.821Fantastic conversation.
00:59:14.821 -->
00:59:16.101Thanks very much, Graham.
00:59:16.101 -->
00:59:18.241And look forward to following more of your work.
00:59:18.341 -->
00:59:18.601Yeah.
00:59:18.601 -->
00:59:19.181Thank you, my friend.
00:59:19.181 -->
00:59:19.481Take care.
00:59:19.481 -->
00:59:19.901Have a good day.
00:59:26.563 -->
00:59:35.543What we've learned from this episode is that bystanders, whether they do something or do nothing, are a part of the situation.
00:59:36.563 -->
00:59:40.903You're not just an observer, even if you choose to stay silent.
00:59:40.903 -->
00:59:47.523Your actions or your inactions influence the situation that's happening in front of you.
00:59:47.523 -->
00:59:52.023The fact that you're seeing it happening makes you involved.
00:59:52.023 -->
00:59:54.143But the question for you is how?
00:59:55.583 -->
01:00:01.883What are you going to do to provide help and support to the person who's suffering mistreatment?
01:00:01.883 -->
01:00:11.543If you say nothing and don't support them, your silence and inaction has a profound effect in making what they're experiencing worse.
01:00:11.543 -->
01:00:16.443We've learnt from Graham that there are many different ways you can provide that support.
01:00:16.443 -->
01:00:20.523It's not always the right thing to stand up and call something out.
01:00:20.523 -->
01:00:27.283The person who's being affected by incivility, bullying or harassment is the one who needs to make the decisions.
01:00:27.283 -->
01:00:31.983But they have to know you're there if they need your help.
01:00:31.983 -->
01:00:42.363Graham's given us some practical examples of how you can go about being a thoughtful, active bystander and providing support in the most appropriate way.
01:00:42.363 -->
01:00:51.323That might mean calling someone out at the time, or calling someone in and helping them change their behaviour because you've seen what they don't.
01:00:52.403 -->
01:00:57.783As Graham said at the start of this episode, there is no neutrality.
01:00:57.783 -->
01:01:08.403Your action or your inaction is going to define the bystander you become, and whether you prevent or enable bullies to harm others.
01:01:08.403 -->
01:01:14.243The late Professor Philip Zimbardo's work taught us about the evil of inaction.
01:01:14.243 -->
01:01:21.243So when your turn comes and you need the help of bystanders around you, how would you want them to behave?
01:01:24.883 -->
01:01:30.123I hope you found this episode interesting, and you'll find a show notes at priceperrott.com.
01:01:30.123 -->
01:01:32.983That's with a double R and a double T.
01:01:32.983 -->
01:01:34.843Would you like to know more?
01:01:34.843 -->
01:01:45.623You can sign up to stay informed about a whole range of other content that goes beyond bullet points to help you succeed in achieving a high-performing workplace culture.
01:01:45.623 -->
01:01:54.543Don't forget to subscribe wherever you found this podcast, leave a review and tell all your friends and colleagues what you learned from today's episode.
01:01:54.543 -->
01:01:56.223I'm Jason Price.
01:01:56.223 -->
01:02:00.043Join me again next time for more insights from Life at the Sharp End.
