E81: Beyond Assumptions: Lived Experience, Justice, and Learning with Chelsey De Groot

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So I chose to focus on the good of my life, even though I was navigating and
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going through some of the most difficult experiences of my life.
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And this has been a long, drawn-out battle. This is 10 years.
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This is Learning Innovation, the teaching and learning podcast,
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also known as LittlePod.
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We are created by Lethbridge Polytechnic's Centre for Teaching,
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Learning and Innovation and located in Lethbridge, Alberta, Canada,
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on the traditional lands of the Blackfoot Confederacy.
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In the spirit of equity, diversity, inclusion and Nitsitapi Skimstan,
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or real thinking, we play host to a spectrum of guests from the teaching and learning community.
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As we highlight and explore innovation in education, we hope to kindle warm
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conversations, expand perspectives, and foster lasting partnerships today, tomorrow, and beyond.
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The future of learning starts now.
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All right. Today, I'm joined by Chelsea DeGroote, who just released her first
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book in August called I Shouldn't Have to Play the Victim.
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We have it right here. And she's also a part-time instructor in Lethbridge Polytechnic's
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Bachelor of Criminal Justice program on campus, as well as at the Lakeshore campus.
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Her memoir, published by Landon Hale Press, became an international bestseller.
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It draws on her personal experience of domestic violence and her work within the justice system.
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Together, we'll explore how lived experience can enrich teaching,
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challenge assumptions, and help prepare future justice professionals to respond
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with greater understanding and empathy.
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So welcome, Chelsea. Thank you for having me.
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For sure. So tell me a little bit
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more about what inspired you to write I Shouldn't Have to Play the Victim.
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I always wanted to write a book about my life and my experiences and how I've
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been able to navigate those difficulties.
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But after going through such a difficult experience within the justice system
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and as a victim of domestic violence, I knew that this was something and an
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experience that I had to write about first.
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So there will be more to come, future books, but this took priority.
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Yeah, and writing a book, that's no small feat. So something you were kind of
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weighing for a while, but you just like at one point you decided, okay, let's do this?
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Yeah, it's something I've been talking about for a number of years,
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but having worked inside of the justice system and having this lived experience in a different way.
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Kind of made me a little bit resistant and hesitant to do that because I was
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scared of what the system would do to me while I was still working inside of it. Fair enough. Yeah.
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We'll get into that more probably in a little bit here, but what do you hope
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readers will take away from reading this book?
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I hope it sheds light on the gaps that are in the systems and that there's a
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difference between what policy says and implementation of those policies.
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And I hope that those working in the system can recognize that and work towards
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meaningful systems change.
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And for those that have experienced domestic violence, I hope that they find
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hope and inspiration because our darkest moments can often lead to some of the
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most beautiful destinations, but perspective is everything.
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Yeah, totally. That's good. So very resilient with your life experience and
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how you actually want to put this into writing. The title is very powerful.
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What does the phrase having to play the victim mean to you? And why did you
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decide to choose those words?
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This came from various interactions with different justice professionals.
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And so the very first time I encountered something similar to this was when
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a judge had said to me, I didn't know that you were a victim of domestic violence
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because you hold yourself together so well and you present so well.
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I was like, well, yeah, of course I do. Like, I know how to work in the system.
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I know how to talk in court, all of those things.
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And then I had a lawyer say to me, like, to really kind of up the ante and play
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the victim, play that battered wife.
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And I said to myself, well, I shouldn't have to play anything.
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I can be a victim of domestic violence and still be a put together professional
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who presents well in community. Yeah.
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Interesting. That kind of advice that you're getting. Yes.
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About perception. Yeah. Okay. So you bring both professional knowledge of the
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justice system and personal experience navigating it.
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So you talked a little bit about your hesitation to publish this.
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So maybe in the answer here, how have those perspectives shaped or challenged each other?
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That's a fully loaded question. I think, you know, something happened to me
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last year where it kind of just pushed me into the open, where I was no longer,
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bound by certain systems because I was no longer working directly inside of them.
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And so I knew that this was my opportunity to come forward and share that in a different way.
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But I think it's still been very, a little bit conflicting because even the
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justice professionals that I run into when I share my story,
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especially with police that I'm still connected with, you know,
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they'll say, oh, our policies are so much better than they used to be.
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And I said, well, I can tell you from my own personal experience as of 2024,
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they're, maybe they're better, but they're still not great as someone who's
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had every resource in my back pocket and was still failed. Wow. Yeah.
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So those conversations, how do they evolve? Because I know the policy piece
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is the biggest kind of moving target that you want to see some positive direction in.
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How do you take that next step of, because you kind of know where things are
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all the way up to 2024, how can you get that message to take that extra step, one, for the policy?
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There's been some really cool things that have happened through sharing my story.
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And maybe it'll be helpful if I share an example of this. But when I used to
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manage the drug treatment court here in Lethbridge, and when I was leaving to
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pursue another opportunity, there was a going-away dinner for me.
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And our RCMP officer, who was our liaison at the time, she had helped me and
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been so impactful in my own experience.
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You know, when I talk about having people in my back pocket,
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I literally had her on speed dial.
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But at that going away dinner, she had said to me, you know,
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Chelsea, I want you to know that we changed our weapon seizure policy based on your experience.
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And so we can basically call it the Chelsea policy without calling it that.
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And, you know, that made me really emotional because even though it's so scary
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to share your story, meaningful change can happen. And yes, it's policy change.
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How that is implemented, I'm not sure. Only time will tell.
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But it's still a step in the right direction of like, okay, when we tell our
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story in a good way, we can create that change.
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So, yeah. And the policy piece, the pieces that you actually want to see change,
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can you speak to those specific things?
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Or if you can't, can you tell me are there other provinces or jurisdictions
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around the world that have stronger policies that you'd like to see us modeled after?
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I'm not entirely sure that it's about having better policies.
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I think it's about being held accountable to the policies that are already written.
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And maybe it's about strengthening them as well.
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But I think, you know, what happens when you're a victim of domestic violence
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and you call for help, you expect those responding are going to help you.
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But I think from my own experience and working and hearing from many other women
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who have gone through the same thing...
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Police have a lot of discretion when they respond to calls. And so even though
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there's the Police Act and there's all of these things in place,
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what happens with that responding officer is kind of different for everybody.
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And so it's like, where is the accountability for when officers are responding
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to make sure that they are held to the same standard that every,
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you know, that's written?
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And I think that is one of the biggest pieces. And, you know,
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it's not to put all the blame on police officers because the entire system plays
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a role in this, but police are often the very first point of contact.
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And so what happens in that interaction actually has a ripple effect onward
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into the justice system, into the courts and all of those things that happen next. Yeah.
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So even finding a way to at least maybe get in front of police officers to share
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more of your story to understand where that discretion can be shifted perhaps to prevent.
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The ripple or trickle down effects that have that negative implication once
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you get into the court system or once you're starting to see how that first
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reaction to that call came about.
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Yeah, and I think it's even about recognizing the different types of violence.
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And, you know, for police, they're often getting a snapshot.
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When they respond to a call, it's what's in front of them. But domestic violence
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does not happen in isolation.
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There's buildup, right? And so when you're an officer and you're responding
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to the same couple, same person multiple times, that should almost be an indication
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like, okay, what else is going on here?
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And I think we're missing the mark. And actually, I had a police officer approach
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me at the gym not long ago, and he had thanked me for the content that I was
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making because it was a reminder to him and other officers that they need to
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be looking at the bigger picture.
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It's not just about, you know, one piece of that puzzle. And I think,
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again, another example of when you share your story and create this content,
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meaningful change can happen and it starts the conversation.
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And I think, you know, leading up to getting before police and other justice
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professionals, I am presenting at a conference next year that is designed for
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police, fire, and EMS and how to better respond to domestic violence.
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And it's building in this immersive training for first responders. Amazing.
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Where is that conference? It's in Edmonton. Okay, excellent.
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Good. Well, I look forward to hearing how that goes. That'll be fascinating.
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Is there anything else that I missed through that conversation about what do
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you wish people like working in the justice system should know about those experiences,
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those seeking help? Or did you kind of touch on all that already?
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I just think like when we hear domestic violence, we look for the physical evidence of it, right?
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So bruises, you know, that how can we tell that something has occurred?
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And in the moment, you know, if you're an officer responding to that,
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you'll see bruises. That's in that snapshot.
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But for so many of us, it's beyond the bruises.
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And so I think bringing that awareness and having that training being provided
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to justice professionals, because I've heard from many judges in my personal
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life that because of the judicial independence, they don't have to go to training.
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And so they don't have to have training in certain things. And so that's concerning, right?
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Because again, they're only looking at what's before them. But when domestic
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violence is a slow buildup till we get to this big picture, I think victims
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are being failed every step of the way. And then we only, we become a reactionary
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system instead of proactive. Okay.
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So even looking at, and I don't know if you have a specific name for that training,
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but from making it discretionary to probably making it mandatory would probably
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help things considerably.
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Yeah, I think so, right? Because there's lots of mandatory training when you go in for jobs.
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And I can respect the judicial independence to a degree, but I think when we're
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looking at certain things like domestic violence, when far too many women and
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children are dying from domestic violence every year in Canada,
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it tells us that we need to do more.
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And I'm not saying it's going to solve all of the problems, but I think it would
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help us to be a preventative system instead of, because the system prioritizes
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reunification over safety every time.
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Really? Yeah. Interesting. Okay.
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The perspective of you also being an instructor in Lethbridge Polytechnic's
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Bachelor of Justice program is quite unique.
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So how's your experience in the classroom or even your personal experience or
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professional experience like influence what you want students to learn before
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entering the profession?
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I think the justice system is so vast and no matter what career that you want
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to end up in, you know, that could be anything.
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It's really important to be aware of different perspectives and experiences.
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And something that I've learned in my own educational journey and professional
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experience and lived experience is that, you know, I've danced in both worlds
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as someone who's navigated the system, worked inside of it, taught in this system.
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Our experiences are real to us, but we can't paint everybody in every system
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with the same paintbrush.
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And how do we do that? Well, we have to be aware of our assumptions and biases
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and those that we carry with us.
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And so something that I've really tried to incorporate into my classes is how
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do we take that experiential learning and become reflective practitioners and
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reflecting on our experiences and what did we learn from that?
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What can we do better or different? And I do that in my own life as well.
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And I think that's why I've been able to be as successful as I have been and
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be able to, you know, teach people in a different way because of that vast experience,
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if that makes sense. Totally.
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And I really like what you're saying because, again, you had some hesitation
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in publishing this book, but you've been approached with a lot of positive feedback
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since it has been published because,
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you even check your own assumptions and biases to make sure that you're not
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painting everybody with the same brush.
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It's not saying all this, all that, but it's these individual experiences and
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individual responses of emergency response teams about how it all happens from there.
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Can you speak to that just about how you check those biases and assumptions?
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Yeah, like a prime example is I've had various dealings with police officers
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from numerous services.
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But I, you know, some of them have not been good, but I've also had good experiences.
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And in my book, I do give some acknowledgments to those officers and even some
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judges who were instrumental in recognizing things for what they were.
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And so I think, you know, just being aware of, I could say, oh,
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I don't trust police. I don't, you know, and paint them all with that same brush.
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But I know because of my experience, I can see the duality in both.
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And so leveraging those good relationships and, you know, like utilizing that
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to create that change, because they are also now taking my book into police
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lineups and saying like, hey, you need to read this book.
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And so, you know, it's just like if I had such a negative experience and view
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of the police, I don't think I'd be able to engage in those wholesome conversations
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to start that, you know, planting the seed for this conversation at the very least. Yeah.
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And how powerful is that? It's almost like you've now become like train the trainer.
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Yeah. And the fact that it's like this intrinsic feeling from the police officers
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who have read your material or who understand your story.
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Who know even within the system or within their own practices or decisions that
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they make on a daily basis that,
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they can see where that change needs to happen yeah and i think what's missing
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in lots of creation of policy and all of these things is that lived experience
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perspective because you can get and i'm not saying police officers haven't experienced
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domestic violence maybe they have,
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but those of us who have navigated in a different way should have a seat at
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that table to help inform some of those policies and share.
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Because I think it's a good, again, in reflective practice, we might have all
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of these things, but how are they actually working? And how are they being received by community?
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Yeah. Yeah. Powerful. So maybe we've answered this already, but again,
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I just want to make sure I haven't missed anything.
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So how do you bring lived experience into the classroom in ways to help students
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connect theory, policy, and the realities? Like, is there active learning that
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you play out or scenarios or what does that look like?
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It's not something I currently teach because I teach fieldwork classes here on campus.
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But it is something that I do use when I'm teaching at the Lakeshore campus.
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Because for those of you who don't know, the Lakeshore campus is the campus
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inside of Lethbridge Correctional Center.
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And so I do teach family violence prevention there. And so I'm able to use some
00:15:55.777 --> 00:16:01.237
of these experiences, which again speaks to my duality and all of those things
00:16:01.237 --> 00:16:06.034
to bring lived experience and a professional experience in teaching sentenced inmates.
00:16:07.075 --> 00:16:12.047
Yeah, just kind of really recognizing and talking about what it means to be a victim.
00:16:12.047 --> 00:16:16.227
Because lots of them are perpetrators of domestic violence, but they've also been victims.
00:16:16.227 --> 00:16:20.427
And so there's another duality of very interesting perspectives and dynamics.
00:16:20.427 --> 00:16:26.427
And even as a teacher, navigating both of those things without really calling
00:16:26.427 --> 00:16:28.537
it out and causing issues on the unit.
00:16:28.537 --> 00:16:34.237
But I think just my, even if I'm not talking about domestic violence specifically,
00:16:34.933 --> 00:16:39.817
challenging our assumptions and belief systems and biases and is one of the
00:16:39.817 --> 00:16:45.504
most impactful practices that we could do as professionals and just as individuals
00:16:45.748 --> 00:16:48.457
living, you know, because that's how we become lifelong learners.
00:16:48.457 --> 00:16:52.727
That's how we embrace curiosity over judgment and we've become better people
00:16:52.727 --> 00:16:55.360
and professionals for it. So, yeah.
00:16:56.702 --> 00:17:02.277
The other side, either students or professionals, have you had some negative
00:17:02.439 --> 00:17:08.517
or pushback, I guess, when students feel that maybe their assumptions are challenged
00:17:08.517 --> 00:17:10.897
or those in the professional justice system,
00:17:11.577 --> 00:17:13.686
they feel challenged based on this?
00:17:14.290 --> 00:17:19.739
How do you help them perhaps work through that discomfort or maybe learn from it?
00:17:20.343 --> 00:17:23.757
I think, I mean, you don't grow in your comfort zone. So when people become
00:17:23.757 --> 00:17:25.795
uncomfortable, that's an opportunity to change.
00:17:26.265 --> 00:17:31.007
I think it's my approach, though, and the way that I still have respect for
00:17:31.007 --> 00:17:33.940
the people that I'm engaging with. So even though I'm respectfully challenging,
00:17:34.480 --> 00:17:38.507
assumptions and those things, I think it's I don't come from a place of hate.
00:17:38.507 --> 00:17:41.077
I come from a place of curiosity. Like, help me understand.
00:17:41.754 --> 00:17:45.057
And I think through my approach, I can model the way for other people.
00:17:45.057 --> 00:17:47.467
And so, you know, it's not about getting defensive. It's about,
00:17:47.467 --> 00:17:50.377
yeah, what is the opportunity here? What can we learn from these experiences?
00:17:50.377 --> 00:17:52.427
How do we do better? Yeah. Yeah.
00:17:53.132 --> 00:17:58.657
Yeah, that vulnerability or just the curiosity of taking me more through your
00:17:58.657 --> 00:18:00.910
thought process. Yeah. Okay. Yeah.
00:18:01.465 --> 00:18:04.957
Are there specific teaching approaches that you've found useful for helping
00:18:04.957 --> 00:18:09.989
students practice empathy, listen carefully, and consider perspectives different from their own?
00:18:10.268 --> 00:18:13.917
It's tough when you're teaching online because there's only really like online
00:18:13.917 --> 00:18:18.627
communication in that aspect. But still through, you know, feedback,
00:18:18.627 --> 00:18:23.786
through assignments, there is still that curiosity and how I ask the questions, I think.
00:18:24.612 --> 00:18:28.475
But it's really kind of cool because we're seeing a lot of empathy.
00:18:28.475 --> 00:18:33.535
And I just recently changed my fieldwork courses to use experiential learning
00:18:33.535 --> 00:18:38.265
and reflective models in their responses because they're in the field working, gaining experience.
00:18:38.265 --> 00:18:42.895
And so through this practice, in real time, they're using lived experience of
00:18:42.895 --> 00:18:47.425
their own to reflect on practices, standards, expectations, and all of those things.
00:18:47.425 --> 00:18:51.575
So it's kind of relatively new, but it's been cool to see the answers and like
00:18:51.575 --> 00:18:56.544
how students are engaging with each other, the material and their own experience. Yeah.
00:18:57.143 --> 00:18:59.415
Sounds like a good research project. Yeah, you know.
00:19:00.655 --> 00:19:04.625
Something down the line, maybe. That's great. So students may understand a concept
00:19:04.625 --> 00:19:08.175
in class, but might find it difficult to apply under pressure or maybe even
00:19:08.175 --> 00:19:09.535
that fieldwork experience.
00:19:09.889 --> 00:19:15.287
How can educators help them turn that understanding into sound professional judgment?
00:19:15.854 --> 00:19:18.734
I think, you know, even from my own professional experience,
00:19:18.734 --> 00:19:23.244
like you gotta be okay with taking risk and making mistakes.
00:19:23.821 --> 00:19:26.525
There is a ton of learning opportunities that come from mistakes.
00:19:26.525 --> 00:19:29.985
Now I'm not saying continue to make the same mistake over and over again. That's a problem.
00:19:30.455 --> 00:19:35.465
But how else are you going to learn and build confidence if you don't fail forward, you know?
00:19:35.465 --> 00:19:39.735
And so every failure, let's say, is an opportunity to learn and to do something
00:19:39.735 --> 00:19:42.165
different and to learn, you know, it's, yeah, you can learn from it.
00:19:42.165 --> 00:19:47.455
So I think it's really exciting. And, you know, as a student doing your practicums
00:19:47.455 --> 00:19:50.895
or in like paid and unpaid placements, it can be nerve wracking,
00:19:50.895 --> 00:19:53.915
right? Because some of us have really high expectations of ourselves. We don't.
00:19:57.007 --> 00:20:03.155
Those that can embrace that approach, I find, make it further than those who
00:20:03.155 --> 00:20:07.460
are so scared to take risks and are perfectionists and, you know,
00:20:08.096 --> 00:20:09.725
too scared to step outside of that box.
00:20:10.409 --> 00:20:14.805
So, yeah, I just really try to encourage that as much as I can through all my interactions. Yeah.
00:20:15.459 --> 00:20:19.175
All right. Now, are there opportunities, you think, for polytechnics or post-secondaries
00:20:19.175 --> 00:20:23.685
in general to strengthen justice education through collaboration with survivors,
00:20:24.051 --> 00:20:26.553
community organizations, and justice professionals?
00:20:26.878 --> 00:20:31.812
I 100% think that there's a ton of opportunity to embrace more of that.
00:20:32.520 --> 00:20:38.761
However, when you're taking people with lived experience, they have to be people,
00:20:39.213 --> 00:20:43.705
that have done enough of their own healing to be able to come and share their stories in a good way.
00:20:43.705 --> 00:20:46.565
Because there's still lots of people who are maybe early on,
00:20:46.565 --> 00:20:50.205
maybe aren't really quite ready to share their story, and you might not get
00:20:50.205 --> 00:20:54.764
the best version or answers because they're not in a place where they can really,
00:20:55.439 --> 00:20:57.825
articulate or help in the most impactful way.
00:20:58.145 --> 00:21:02.485
And I say that respectfully, but if I look at myself many years ago,
00:21:02.825 --> 00:21:07.525
I probably wouldn't be able to have this book and make the impacts that I've been able to make.
00:21:07.525 --> 00:21:11.425
But through my own healing journey and the way that I present to those that
00:21:11.425 --> 00:21:14.195
are willing to listen, I think that's the key.
00:21:14.195 --> 00:21:19.125
And so when we look at the school, I think it is about, let's use people that
00:21:19.125 --> 00:21:23.885
have a good amount of years in recovery, let's say, and that have done the work
00:21:23.885 --> 00:21:27.505
that can share our experience to help shape and inform our.
00:21:28.377 --> 00:21:33.012
You know, in-class training, our recruit training, our like any type of,
00:21:33.180 --> 00:21:37.835
however we can utilize lived experience with students, I think is impactful
00:21:37.835 --> 00:21:40.345
and not just justice related, but across the board.
00:21:41.266 --> 00:21:44.186
I hope that answers that question. Oh yeah, for sure. No, that's really good.
00:21:44.639 --> 00:21:49.605
Are you able to take us through just for giving strength to others who have
00:21:49.605 --> 00:21:53.007
made, have gone through something like what you've gone through,
00:21:53.953 --> 00:21:59.162
The journey from when the incident happened until the strength you came about
00:21:59.162 --> 00:22:03.793
to either process and work through that, all those strong feelings,
00:22:04.223 --> 00:22:07.302
to actually then come up with a published version of your work,
00:22:07.982 --> 00:22:10.173
to put it under the public microscope.
00:22:11.944 --> 00:22:16.650
And what were some things that helped you through that path to resiliency?
00:22:17.480 --> 00:22:24.454
Journaling has been very impactful in my own healing journey as well as practicing gratitude.
00:22:24.454 --> 00:22:28.134
And that's not to say that bad things aren't existing at the same time,
00:22:28.134 --> 00:22:29.924
but both things can be true at the same time.
00:22:29.924 --> 00:22:34.904
You can be grateful for a lot of things, but also navigating some really tough challenges.
00:22:34.904 --> 00:22:38.974
But our perspective is everything. And so I chose to focus on the good of my
00:22:38.974 --> 00:22:42.314
life, even though I was navigating and going through some of the most difficult
00:22:42.314 --> 00:22:45.054
experiences of my life. And this has been a long, drawn-out battle.
00:22:45.054 --> 00:22:47.864
This is 10 years of a court battle.
00:22:48.404 --> 00:22:52.624
But I started documenting in 2012 because I knew if I ever needed something
00:22:52.624 --> 00:22:57.015
to go to court with, and because I worked in this field, I was really good at documenting.
00:22:57.493 --> 00:23:01.472
And so this book is basically all of my documentation turned into a story.
00:23:02.240 --> 00:23:07.414
But I think, yeah, just doing my master's in leadership, I learned how deeply
00:23:07.414 --> 00:23:08.857
personal leadership was.
00:23:09.264 --> 00:23:12.044
And so it was like, how can I lead myself through these difficult times so that
00:23:12.044 --> 00:23:15.204
I can lead others through theirs? And that doesn't, you know,
00:23:15.204 --> 00:23:18.917
but even in organizations, you know, how do you show up for people?
00:23:19.300 --> 00:23:22.134
Well, you have to show up for yourself first. Because I believe you can only
00:23:22.134 --> 00:23:24.162
lead others to the depths in which you've led yourself.
00:23:24.306 --> 00:23:28.634
And so, yeah, just through journaling and self-help books and counseling and
00:23:28.634 --> 00:23:31.324
therapy and all of these things. I mean, this is only one part of my story.
00:23:31.324 --> 00:23:35.137
There's a whole bunch more in my second book that I'll talk about.
00:23:35.801 --> 00:23:42.058
But, yeah, just in perspective, you know, like we choose or we see what we choose to see.
00:23:42.673 --> 00:23:46.514
And so just carrying that mindset and moving forward and always asking myself,
00:23:46.514 --> 00:23:47.962
like, what is the opportunity here?
00:23:48.635 --> 00:23:52.014
So even in our darkest moments, like I said, you know, beautiful things can
00:23:52.014 --> 00:23:55.676
come from those things. So, yeah. Impressive. Thanks for sharing.
00:23:56.444 --> 00:24:00.164
When you imagine your students becoming the next generation of justice professionals,
00:24:00.624 --> 00:24:02.584
what do you most hope they'll do differently?
00:24:03.144 --> 00:24:05.749
What role can education play in making that possible? Yeah.
00:24:06.534 --> 00:24:11.098
You know, I really hope that they become, and they take this reflective practice
00:24:11.098 --> 00:24:13.128
and use it onward, right?
00:24:13.128 --> 00:24:17.428
Not just because it was a requirement in the classroom, but because they see
00:24:17.428 --> 00:24:21.675
the benefit in how it makes them better as professionals, as human beings.
00:24:22.098 --> 00:24:26.226
I mean, that they can also share that practice with other people because,
00:24:26.777 --> 00:24:29.788
you know, we can always hide behind policies and all of those things.
00:24:29.788 --> 00:24:34.548
But how we show up every day is what really matters. Policies are only a small
00:24:34.548 --> 00:24:37.122
part of anything. Yeah, of course.
00:24:37.948 --> 00:24:41.488
We've covered a lot of material today. Is there anything that you think we missed
00:24:41.488 --> 00:24:43.143
out on, or is there anything else you'd like to share?
00:24:43.786 --> 00:24:48.325
No, I don't think so. Okay, great. Well, thank you so much for joining us today.
00:24:48.906 --> 00:24:51.831
It's been a great conversation, Chelsea. Really appreciate your time.
00:24:52.040 --> 00:24:53.068
Yeah, thank you for having me.
00:24:53.743 --> 00:24:57.446
This episode featured Chris Hodgson-Bright as host and Chelsea DeGroote as guest.
00:24:57.644 --> 00:25:00.860
Dawn McLaughlin was our producer, sound technician, and editor.
00:25:01.434 --> 00:25:04.878
Our podcast is funded by Lethbridge Polytechnic's Centre for Business,
00:25:04.878 --> 00:25:08.830
Arts, and Science and recorded on the traditional lands of the Blackfoot Confederacy.
00:25:09.213 --> 00:25:12.667
For more episodes, head to learninginnovation.ca slash podcast.
00:25:13.050 --> 00:25:14.530
Thanks for listening and take care.