Grading for Equity: Part 2

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There's like you're right.
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There's like that little bit of both.
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We have to perform and we get evaluated and ref instant feedback sometimes.
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People will just walk out or they'll just have their their laptops open having conversations about things that are definitely not what we're talking about.
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So that's always out there.
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Maybe in your PD, never in mine.
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Forgot.
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Never while we were listening to this podcast when they have been multitasking doing something else.
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Welcome to Learning Out Loud, where we get curious about all things teaching and learning.
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I'm Stefan, a regional technology coach, here with Andy, a regional math coordinator, and Carrie, a regional science coordinator.
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We're just three educators on a mission to dig into what works, what doesn't, and what we're still figuring out.
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This podcast is for teachers, coaches, and leaders who want to grow in their professional practice.
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We don't have all the answers, but we're asking the questions and recording the process.
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Let's go to work.
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Right?
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All those things.
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And now I like just where do they where do these practices come from, right?
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As the and they talk about those chunks of kids being afraid of things, you know, like talking about things about points versus what we're learning.
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You know, that was always a thing to my area.
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But yeah, let's just do that.
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That'd be kind of fun.
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But yeah.
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Well yeah, part two is called the case for change.
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So that's what I mean, that's kind of the theme, I guess, of the conversation.
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Well, and I felt still a little bit like I don't know, based off of I guess what we talked about last time.
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It's not really admiring the problem, it's dismantling that web of belief.
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But it was still a little bit more of that.
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Uh like just kind of yeah, making making the case.
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And uh like if you weren't already bought in, here's a second crack at it.
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Yeah, yeah, yeah.
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And then our next few episodes are gonna all be about what are the changes that you can make.
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Yeah, that we've built all of our background up and are convinced that we need to change grading.
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That I made a note of that quote on page 127 that you start, you know, the quote for this part.
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Like that's harsh.
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127 on page 27, yeah.
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27.
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Yeah, 27, sorry.
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I thought you said 127.
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I was like, bro, I did not read that far.
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No, no, no, no.
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No.
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No, 127.
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A grade is an inadequate report of an inaccurate judgment by a biased and variable judge of the extent to which a student has attained an undefined level of mastery of an unknown proportion of an indefinite material.
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I was like, whoo!
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Uh no real beating around the bush on that one.
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Nope.
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Interesting 1983.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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Right.
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I wasn't even in school yet.
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I wasn't even born yet.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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I was toddling around.
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Well, talking about risk taking, how the way we grade kids or traditionally kind of squashes that idea of I'm gonna try something and just fail at it.
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You know, that my that mindset, that growth mindset that we're that's been around for a while, and no wonder it's confusing if I'm asked to try things and fail, then my grading system's all about if I did it right or wrong.
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You know what I mean?
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That's that would be weird to understand as a kid.
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Am I gonna be evaluated on me trying something?
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You know, or how do I how do I handle mistakes?
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Or how do the teachers handle mistakes?
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Right?
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And then I don't know.
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Yeah, that's what kind of stood out for me for this chapter is like what we're what we're telling kids through our grading about education.
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So that was an aha for me to think about how something that might feel disconnected uh can be like grading, can be a tone setter for your culture.
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You know, that that was a a frustration of mine in the classroom when kids, I don't know, were defeatist or or were like like product oriented.
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And I don't know if it ever really occurred to me to say take a step back and look at my how my grading was perpetuating that and how just and obviously it's bigger than just one person's classroom, but yeah, it never really occurred to me to think about how the we we went through a lot of training on on growth mindset and read Carol Dweck's book.
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And I mean, it was a what I guess it was what I would say was a big part of our culture when I was in the classroom.
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And not once did the grading conversation come up.
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And I think that's partially because the system that I taught in was very heavily focused on uh individual teacher control.
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And so it really rings true at the beginning of the book about how teachers' grades are kind of their last untouched domain of where they have complete and total influence.
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And I can I can see, and I would have felt a certain way if someone told me I had to grade exactly like, and no one was saying that, but like, and no one is saying it now, but I had to grade exactly like my two ELA counterparts, or two other teachers teaching seventh grade English.
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We graded very differently, you know, even within my our pod, the English science, social studies, math, we all had different grading systems.
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We were going about, so it's probably very confusing for kids.
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But like I had complete and total autonomy over that.
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And with all the the conversation around mindset, and like uh we did all these different activities that you know supposed to develop your culture for like embracing failure and and grit determination.
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Not once did we talk about how grades might be undermining all of that.
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Do we so do we ask in that idea about making mistakes, right?
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Is that evidence of uh a learning in progress, right?
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And if it is, which I think it could be, right?
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I think that a lot of people say, like, yeah, if you if you make a mistake, it shows that you're learning in the moment versus it's evidence that you fail.
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And so if I get information without a mistake, and all of a sudden I'm subtracting points away from your mistake, now my learning progress is a punishment for a kid.
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And that right, that would be something that would be like, oh why would I want to try to push myself or you know, take an intellectual risk?
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Um But I think you know, how do you shift from that uh uh subtracting or a punishment to let's determine what happens next from this mistake in that more formative piece?
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But we were in a we were in a training before and they we're doing all these up at the boards, doing groups, and a teacher looked in and said, Well, how are we how are you gonna assess the kids like this?
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And it's like this is their thinking time, this is their processing.
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What are we all so even that like we have to whatever we're doing, we have to uh apply a grade or a point system to.
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Well, and I think that's an interesting distinction.
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Because did the teacher say, How are you gonna assess kids or how are you gonna grade kids?
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Grade.
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So there's there's the difference, right?
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Because the if the question is, how are you gonna assess kids formatively?
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With I'm gonna be taking notes, I'm gonna be walking around, I'm gonna be listening to conversations, I'm gonna be providing feedback, I'm gonna be differentiating the lesson.
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Like, how am I gonna assess them like I do every day, all the time, constantly, with intentional and differentiated feedback?
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How am I gonna grade them?
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I'm not, and that's okay.
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Uh one of the things I wrote down here is not everything needs to be graded.
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Like, we just I don't know.
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I want someone once told me that.
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Like, if it's important, then it needs to go in the grade book.
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Or like if it's if uh if you are uh like putting making it a priority in your classroom, then kids deserve a grade.
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I don't know.
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Kids deserve intentional, targeted feedback that's actionable that shows them where they are in their learning process.
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Do they quote unquote deserve a grade?
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I don't know.
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And so that was a big break for me reading this.
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It was just it doesn't have to be graded.
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So something like that.
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Like, how is this graded?
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It's not.
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Who cares?
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Why this isn't about a grade?
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Yeah, it's not seat time, or like we have the same adult conference about clock hours, right?
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It's the same idea, just a different level.
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And no, these kids are just thinking, they're processing, they're reflecting.
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We're not gonna give them point values for that, right?
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Or that's I mean, that I don't know where that comes, but that is definitely in our system somewhere, right?
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That has a barrier for people to get by.
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Like, well, if we're not gonna if they're doing it, why why aren't we giving them some points for it?
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They've earned them or something.
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And it's like, oh my gosh.
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So it's I feel like some of that stuff stems from I'll just say in individual students or uh select groups of students, because for the scenario that you just painted, Andy, where we're they're up at the boards, they're thinking in groups.
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Well, I need to have a participation grade because Carrie continues to just sit down and not contribute to her team.
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And so I need to punish her for not doing what it is that I'm asking her to do.
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So I'm just gonna say, I'm gonna evaluate your participation and you'll get a participation grade today.
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And those points go into the grade book.
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And now Carrie might stand up and actually engage because she's worried about the five points that she's gonna miss out on because she's an athlete and doesn't, you know, has to pass all her classes in order to do the game tonight or whatever.
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So I think some of the things that we have in our system is to combat non-compliant behavior, maybe, or I don't know if that's the right term for that, but when it's behavior.
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Yeah.
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So and you know what the research says about grades in in shaping behavior, highly effective, like real good in the long term.
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What would change if students spent less energy and time and all of this strategic planning on figuring out how to earn points in your classroom and spent the same amount of energy in strategic planning and all these things that I can hear my kids talk about it in the hallways, right?
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And I'll spend more energy on figuring out how should I show the teacher that I've learned this stuff.
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Like I don't that's I that seems like a gap that's a mile long to even make a connection to people.
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And when I do uh I think sometimes that conversation, I don't know, because he says it in here, and like we've said it, and there's a part of me that that believes that the the school system has molded kids' brains in that sense, right?
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Especially as they get to the secondary level.
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But it has been interesting having a second grader who even this morning, as I walked him to the bus, uh he was talking about how his chief concern right now, five days into school, is that he hasn't had enough time to finish his assignments.
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He's not getting in trouble for it.
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Uh, the teacher's not like writing home, but he's concerned that like they're working on some sort of math thing and the teacher's collecting them and he's not done.
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And some of his peers are done, and he's like, Am I gonna get in trouble?
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And I'm having you know, second grade level conversations with him essentially about everyone works at their own pace, and it's about showing the teacher what you know.
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It's not about completing the task.
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But I don't know that anyone, I guess I'm not in his class every single day for the last two years, always been in public ed, but like I'm not sure that anyone has ever been like, you have to get this done.
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Or there is something inherent there.
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I think human nature and like kids tend to be competitive, and like we see this point system.
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We do, and so there is definitely some deprogramming that needs to be done.
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Not even just deprogramming from the schools, but some deprogramming of human nature of like we uh I think I said this maybe in in uh another episode, but I heard someone say we've got uh per paleolithic brains, uh, and we're working in like archaic institutions, you know, and so like we still there's like a with godlike technology was the last portion of that.
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But they uh I think there is an element of like deprogramming your lizard like nature brain of competition and besting the other if you really are focusing on learning and not products.
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So I um taught an intervention math class for a number of years.
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And we it was a graded class, you know, secondary.
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Um and then one year it was after we read Mathematical Mindsets by Joe Bowler, and we did some work with the Joe.
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Like uh I attended a workshop in Spokane, I think.
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Um we rethought that entire class, like what we were doing with that class.
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We also read a book called The Talent Code.
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Have either of you read the talent code?
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So we had done these book studies as a math department, and um we came back, I don't know, a couple years into this whole idea of this intervention math class where the kids were losing an elective.
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They actually, I think at the middle school level, they didn't get an elective at all if they landed in the intervention math class.
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So um, because there was only one elective in each student's uh schedule.
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So we changed it to a pass fail class and completely lit, like it became their pass fail was really just attendance, like coming to class.
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Like we just got rid of grades and we we did inspirational math, we did tasks and problem solving, we did some Alex, we worked on like numeracy, and and we didn't connect it to any of the same stuff that they were doing in their other math class.
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We tried to make it feel like a completely different math class than what they were doing with their.
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I can't remember what curriculum we had at the time in the tier one math, but um anyway, the the I felt like the attitudes in the class completely changed when we got rid of grading, when they weren't in there to earn a grade, I guess.
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I mean, we played games, we did math games for 45 minutes every day.
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And then I had specific days of the week that we did specific things, like we worked on facts and those kinds of things.
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But I thought removing grading was a win for the attitudes of the kids, and they came into that class differently and showed up differently.
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And I thought, and we saw test scores increase tremendously.
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So state test scores, I guess I should say, because we were not given any tests in that intervention class.
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I was interested in that first question at the end about how like supervisors have responded to like your own mistakes.
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Can you guys think of a time you made a mistake like professionally, not academically?
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Can you think of a time in a job that you made a mistake and a supervisor responded in a way that was no, maybe no, no qualifiers.
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Think of a time you made a mistake uh in the professional environment.
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How did your supervisor respond?
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And what was that like?
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I've never made a mistake ever, so I can't contribute.
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No, I'm struggling myself.
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Just perfect.
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Um actually I can think of something that I got called out on.
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Um that we all got called out on.
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Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
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The the the buried episode out there somewhere.
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Yes.
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Um, so I'm trying to think about the response.
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So I felt like it was um the first response I heard.
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Now you guys might have had a different experience in this, was a thoughtful email with feedback.
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Like the call out of this is like let's back this up, you know.
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It was not let's bury this, but it was I'm asking you to do this, and here's why I'm asking.
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Um, and and like some, you know, some bullet points of this is why I'm asking you to do this to change what you've done.
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So let's give a little, I think we can give some context.
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What what we did was we recorded like an off-the-cuff conversation podcast, kind of the same format, but not focused around a book.
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And it was uh designed to like get instructional coaches talking, right?
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About effectiveness of professional development and um just the various factors that play into it.
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And it was relatively informal.
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And I like none of us had any sort of ill intent, right?
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And it wasn't, we weren't like uh we were just we were just we weren't like dragging our bosses through the mud or anything.
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Uh, but we didn't run it through like a third party who wasn't part of the conversation for some additional context of like how might this sound to someone who's not a part of the conversation.
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And we just put it out there, and uh someone within the agency heard it and was like, in specific contexts, this could sound not great.
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Like this might just sound maybe a little disparaging or a little negative.
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Uh, and they just said, please, like, here's why we'd like exactly what you just said, Carrie.
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Here's why we think you should take it down.
00:19:17.839 --> 00:19:18.400
Yeah.
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Uh and I uh oh, that's a really good one.
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That's a really good one, Carrie.
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Uh, I uh when I was talking to uh when I got a call because I'm the one that like uploads them and like I can take it down, right?
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And so I took it down and I was like crazy apologetic.
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I felt so bad.
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I was like, it didn't even like no ill intent, and like I'm I'm so sorry.
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And uh they said, Stefan, as long as it's not illegal, immoral, or unethical, it's okay.
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Like you're gonna be fine, you know.
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And it was none of those things.
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It was just not, you know, and like it essentially was a mistakes happen, we're gonna move on.
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It's okay.
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And it didn't didn't stop me from feeling like crap, but it didn't stop us from doing this.
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Like we got right back on that horse, right?
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It didn't squash us professionally, it just we found some guardrails.
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Yep.
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Yeah, which we need.
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Yeah.
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Same.
00:20:19.519 --> 00:20:21.839
Like I, I mean, I felt awful.
00:20:22.000 --> 00:20:26.960
When I read the email, I instantly went back to what did I say?
00:20:27.119 --> 00:20:27.759
What did I say?
00:20:27.839 --> 00:20:28.480
What did I say?
00:20:28.640 --> 00:20:31.039
Like I just like was running through my mind.
00:20:31.920 --> 00:20:37.519
Did I say something that was really rude or inappropriate?
00:20:37.680 --> 00:20:50.400
And and even though that's not what the email said, I just was like, but it came down to there, even though we left names out because it's easy, you know, the internet makes it really easy.
00:20:50.640 --> 00:20:54.319
People could still associate names with the things that we were talking about, I think.
00:20:54.400 --> 00:20:55.680
And that was the concern.
00:20:55.839 --> 00:20:56.319
Yeah.
00:20:56.640 --> 00:20:59.200
Was that it was identifiable.
00:20:59.759 --> 00:21:04.079
Anyway, but yes, it was it was gentle.
00:21:04.160 --> 00:21:23.759
And then and then I stopped in, you know, in a couple offices at the office to check in with people after I got this email and you know, went and talked to my supervisor and then my supervisor, supervisor, just to again apologize and appreciated the the feedback.
00:21:23.920 --> 00:21:28.480
But you're right, we did come right back to it and have a few guardrails.
00:21:28.720 --> 00:21:29.279
Yeah.
00:21:29.599 --> 00:21:36.319
So one of the things, so I'm going to a district tomorrow and we're talking about standards and grading and assessment.
00:21:36.880 --> 00:21:49.279
And as we design and curate assessments, one of the things I'm gonna have them consider is I should go find the actual look, I've got it pulled up right here.
00:21:49.440 --> 00:21:52.960
Uh stalling for time, stalling for time, stalling for time.
00:21:53.119 --> 00:21:59.519
One of the questions that I'm gonna ask them to consider is uh what are you assessing?
00:22:00.640 --> 00:22:10.960
And will the results of the assessment empower students to identify what they can already do and what they can work on next?
00:22:11.359 --> 00:22:16.720
And if you think of like A, B, C, D, F grades, it really bugs me there's no E.
00:22:17.200 --> 00:22:22.720
Uh if you think of those grades, what does a letter grade truly communicate?
00:22:22.880 --> 00:22:34.480
Like we're uh one of the one of the real kicks I got out of listening to our previous episode as I was editing it was when Carrie refused to give a number for that, like I'm gonna give 51.
00:22:34.720 --> 00:22:39.440
And uh, but you're like, what's the difference between a like a 73 and a 71, right?
00:22:39.599 --> 00:22:43.119
Like, what's the difference between a 73% and a 71% in your class?
00:22:43.200 --> 00:22:44.480
Can kids communicate that?
00:22:44.799 --> 00:22:52.240
Do your grades, does your feedback empower students to know what they're going to work on next?
00:22:52.400 --> 00:22:56.400
And I would say the feedback we got in that situation did, right?
00:22:56.559 --> 00:22:59.119
We it informed what we've done.
00:22:59.279 --> 00:23:02.400
It made me reflect on other things that maybe they hadn't heard.
00:23:02.559 --> 00:23:04.880
I was like, well, they're not listening to everything we put out.
00:23:05.039 --> 00:23:07.680
For whatever reason, this one just crossed their radar.
00:23:08.720 --> 00:23:14.000
Do we should we go back and and do a little QA on our on our previous stuff?
00:23:14.079 --> 00:23:18.559
Like, but even then that feedback is like, here's where you've been, evaluate where you've been.
00:23:18.640 --> 00:23:23.440
And then it absolutely has informed our our practice moving forward.
00:23:23.680 --> 00:23:35.680
You know, and it again also just makes me think Andy said at the beginning, when we were talking about growth mindset, is is I just wrote down like fail like an F is currently a destination for a lot of kids.
00:23:35.920 --> 00:23:41.440
When it should just be a pit stop, like it should be a natural part of the process of you've never done this before.
00:23:41.599 --> 00:23:43.200
Of course you failed at it.
00:23:43.359 --> 00:23:45.119
Of course you didn't get 100% on it.
00:23:45.279 --> 00:23:46.960
Of course you didn't, you know, or like you did.
00:23:47.039 --> 00:23:49.599
And that just means it was not an appropriate task for you.
00:23:49.680 --> 00:23:56.720
Like you shouldn't, you should not be proud of this A, because like this is a skill you've already come in with.
00:23:56.880 --> 00:24:00.480
Obviously, don't tell that to kids, but uh yeah.
00:24:00.880 --> 00:24:06.160
Is this a good time for me to bring up my first endeavors into fantasy football?
00:24:07.359 --> 00:24:10.240
Uh yeah, use that as a way to transition us into chapter four.
00:24:10.960 --> 00:24:14.640
And have I earned a a D on my after the draft?
00:24:14.720 --> 00:24:16.640
I got an email saying my team was a D.
00:24:16.799 --> 00:24:22.559
And I was like, I don't, I don't even understand what I was graded on, and nor do I even really care about this task.
00:24:22.720 --> 00:24:44.799
I was just really excited that I got invited to participate in something that has been happening in the living room for I don't know how long fantasy football has been going on, but I've sat in the living room many of football games while the men in my life talk to each other and oh, you know, I got this many points, or like they talk about all this stuff and I don't know anything about it.
00:24:44.880 --> 00:24:47.920
And I got invited this year after a decade.
00:24:48.640 --> 00:24:51.920
They were like, you know, you are in the room if you wanted to participate.
00:24:53.039 --> 00:24:55.039
It's like, oh, I am here.
00:24:55.119 --> 00:24:56.400
I'm not just a rock.
00:24:57.279 --> 00:25:03.680
And um, yeah, so I get this email at the end um after the dramaft earlier this week, and it said I had a D.
00:25:03.839 --> 00:25:06.160
And I understood nothing about what that meant.
00:25:06.319 --> 00:25:09.920
I was just like, well, in my world of education, a D is not right.
00:25:10.480 --> 00:25:13.519
And then my son was like, oh, my team's an A.
00:25:14.000 --> 00:25:22.640
But um last night, um, I um I outpointed him and I moved over the ranks, and his little A team moved down in the ranks.
00:25:22.880 --> 00:25:27.680
So I go back to what did that letter grade on my team actually mean?
00:25:27.920 --> 00:25:29.119
I think nothing.
00:25:29.599 --> 00:25:32.400
So he has Sam Darnold.
00:25:32.880 --> 00:25:34.000
Uh I have no idea.
00:25:34.079 --> 00:25:35.839
I didn't look, I didn't look at his team.
00:25:36.000 --> 00:25:37.920
Again, I don't even know how to do any of these things.
00:25:38.000 --> 00:25:41.680
I barely know how to look at my own roster to see what's happening.
00:25:42.000 --> 00:25:49.920
So the uh the grady, the navigate, you're navigating the fantasy football grading system very well, Carol.
00:25:50.240 --> 00:25:51.119
Oh, well, thank you.
00:25:51.279 --> 00:25:54.880
Yeah, I don't I don't think he would have chosen uh Darnold.
00:25:55.039 --> 00:26:02.799
I almost chose Darnold because my sister-in-law despises him, and I was like, oh, this is a name I know because she doesn't like him.
00:26:02.960 --> 00:26:06.000
So I was gonna select him, but I didn't go with him.
00:26:06.319 --> 00:26:22.400
Yeah, I uh I can do a transition as well if you want, Stephanie, because I when you mentioned what did this the supervisor question uh back in the day that we had an end-of-course test, which did you know that Stephanie in our state?
00:26:22.480 --> 00:26:24.079
We had like end of course like biology.
00:26:24.400 --> 00:26:25.039
EOC.
00:26:25.359 --> 00:26:26.720
Yeah, I did not know that.
00:26:26.960 --> 00:26:30.720
Yeah, and of course algebra one, end of course geometry.
00:26:31.039 --> 00:26:32.400
So as a teacher was kind of nice.
00:26:32.480 --> 00:26:42.160
You had the and the standards were not the common core, they were the ELERs, and the state gave you recommendation of like four or five, maybe three or five textbooks.
00:26:42.319 --> 00:26:44.079
It was actually kind of helpful, right?
00:26:44.640 --> 00:26:45.519
That's not the point.
00:26:45.759 --> 00:26:55.519
The point is when I uh in those times you could just grading in those standards-based grading idea, I had to transition it to this system of points.
00:26:56.480 --> 00:27:21.359
And uh when I did that, my supervisor, uh principal, uh evaluator, whatever you want to call it, was like, um, we're getting parents asking about they get all they have this big you remember like Skyward or whatever that system was, you could just print them out, but they included everything, like all the stuff that didn't have points, and it was this massive document, and every parent wanted one.
00:27:21.759 --> 00:27:28.319
And like, so you'd send it home, and it'd be this massive thing, and the kid would have like zero, it would just be blank.
00:27:28.480 --> 00:27:30.160
And it was like, well, why don't you have anything?
00:27:30.319 --> 00:27:33.839
Well, because we're like learning the standards, right?
00:27:33.920 --> 00:27:35.839
I mean, I don't know how else to say it, right?
00:27:35.920 --> 00:27:41.119
Like, we're not we're not I'm not grading them on something that were two weeks into it.
00:27:41.359 --> 00:28:11.119
So he helped me navigate not only the communication to parents, because that's what the it felt like the homework was for, the grades were for the the point totals were for, not the kids, they were for these parents that were getting these, and I don't even know if at the time this is I'm dating myself, but I don't know if you could access your Skyward account online or I mean we barely had it on our IBM computers, you know what I mean?
00:28:11.200 --> 00:28:12.960
Like, but you printed out the things.
00:28:13.440 --> 00:28:21.039
So, anyways, long story short is that help having those the the supervisor like understand like just that way of like, well, where are your points, Andy?
00:28:21.200 --> 00:28:34.079
Like, well, no, these are the standards that we are collecting evidence of, you know, just trying to walk them through that and how to fit it into an electronic communication system, and then educating the parents.
00:28:34.480 --> 00:28:44.400
No wonder it just makes sense to give, oh, I'll just give worksheets sometimes just to communicate with parents that uh you know they haven't turned in these five things.
00:28:44.480 --> 00:28:45.359
That's easy.
00:28:45.839 --> 00:28:50.000
So I'd be curious to hear what other teachers what are their strategies as we go through the book, too.
00:28:50.079 --> 00:29:02.319
Though those are a ton of other strategies, and as and as the technology got better, I think now you can even do standards-based uh grading, quote unquote, in a lot of these platform systems, which were not available.
00:29:02.480 --> 00:29:10.880
So I know my concerns are the out back drinking old-time fashion lemonade on the porch, talking about the old days of education sometimes.
00:29:11.039 --> 00:29:19.920
But it was helpful for the the supervisor to really like, hey, this is not for the kids, but the parents, and I need we need to be able to communicate.
00:29:20.000 --> 00:29:22.720
So just that idea, like what are we trying to get?
00:29:23.759 --> 00:29:28.559
These grades are really communicating for the parent to teachers and the parents and the students.
00:29:28.640 --> 00:29:31.759
So that's kind of that hopefully a good connection.
00:29:31.839 --> 00:29:35.039
Like, what are we collecting as teachers then to give those information?
00:29:35.440 --> 00:29:36.240
Like, right?
00:29:36.400 --> 00:29:46.240
Like I've heard the stories of pencils equal 10 points, you know, and Kleenex is 25 points, and you're going, oh man.
00:29:46.880 --> 00:29:48.799
So like, is that something?
00:29:48.960 --> 00:29:50.720
Okay, so this is just brainstorming here.
00:29:50.799 --> 00:29:52.240
Is that something yes?
00:29:52.319 --> 00:29:53.359
You can at your own level.
00:29:53.440 --> 00:29:56.960
Like you decide what's gonna be in my academic grade in my classroom level.
00:29:57.039 --> 00:29:58.640
So that's a given, right?
00:29:59.119 --> 00:30:00.960
Could you do it at a PLC level?
00:30:01.039 --> 00:30:04.559
Probably, like these are what academically we're gonna assess kids on.
00:30:05.279 --> 00:30:07.119
Well, that's fine, because that was my next question.
00:30:07.200 --> 00:30:10.000
I would say you're about to say, can we make that a non-negotiable?
00:30:10.079 --> 00:30:14.480
I think the easy answer there is no, because it's literally in the wax, right?
00:30:14.559 --> 00:30:15.920
Isn't that what you said, Carrie?
00:30:16.240 --> 00:30:19.200
That you can include attendance in a grade.
00:30:19.440 --> 00:30:33.440
And so, like when you're coming down to things like codified in policy and procedure, if I as a teacher truly believe that, uh, there is kind of nothing you can do about it, right?
00:30:34.960 --> 00:30:39.279
Or am I getting a little cocky in my individual agency as a teacher?
00:30:40.960 --> 00:31:10.160
So, but however, I was kind of wondering, like that process that we were just gonna how what level of our system can we get to this idea, like, hey, listen, I'm gonna assess my students and grade them on their academic instead of their habits of work and their ability to sit or whatever the other criteria, which could be a good criterion to have, but if I'm in my math class, right?
00:31:10.799 --> 00:31:16.720
Well, and I think that's the importance of having like regularly meeting, highly functioning PLCs.
00:31:17.359 --> 00:31:22.319
Because if you can continue to have those conversations and hold each other accountable, that's see again here.
00:31:22.400 --> 00:31:26.799
The answer is relationships, but it's not relationships with kids, it's relationships between adults.
00:31:27.039 --> 00:31:37.440
And I think one of the more powerful things a building leader can do, speaking as someone who never has been one and has zero desire to ever be one, so take this with the largest grain of salt.
00:31:37.599 --> 00:31:52.880
I think it takes a real visionary, charismatic leader with a str uh to pull teachers together, hold them accountable, and give them that trust and time and guidance to to pull some of these things off.
00:31:53.279 --> 00:31:56.720
You know, have have you guys ever like engaged in co-grading?
00:31:56.880 --> 00:31:58.160
Have you ever done that?
00:31:59.039 --> 00:32:02.240
With others, like another another group of teacher?
00:32:02.559 --> 00:32:10.079
Yeah, like or like as a teacher, like you all just take the names off assignments and you all grade them and then you compare your Yeah.
00:32:10.319 --> 00:32:10.640
Yep.
00:32:10.720 --> 00:32:19.680
I had an opportunity actually in Science Fellows when we were first learning the the new standards when the NGSS were adopted.
00:32:19.839 --> 00:32:24.079
Um, we sat down and looked at we we were all tasked with bringing student work.
00:32:24.160 --> 00:32:30.079
And so what was really cool about it wasn't just the people I work with, but it was people across North Central Washington.
00:32:30.319 --> 00:32:40.319
And yeah, we we looked at the student works together and graded in, you know, graded individually and then compared how we how we each graded the student work.
00:32:40.559 --> 00:32:41.599
How'd that go?
00:32:42.400 --> 00:32:46.000
Um so it was really actually interesting.
00:32:46.160 --> 00:32:48.000
It was one, I mean, it still sticks in my mind.
00:32:48.079 --> 00:32:58.960
And we were talking like 10 years ago when I did this activity, because in some things, like the people that were at my table, we were really close.
00:32:59.039 --> 00:33:01.359
And then in other things, wildly different.
00:33:02.160 --> 00:33:13.200
And it was interesting to talk about them because I it made me question myself, but it also made me question them like, oh, is that the intent of that standard?
00:33:13.359 --> 00:33:17.200
Like, are you thinking of it correctly or am I thinking of it correctly?
00:33:17.440 --> 00:33:22.160
And am I reaching, like in this student response?
00:33:22.559 --> 00:33:27.680
Am I reaching for what they're actually saying?
00:33:27.839 --> 00:33:29.359
Like, am I interpreting what they're saying?
00:33:29.519 --> 00:33:36.880
Like, am I giving this student more credit than they're expressing because I think I know what they're thinking in this response?
00:33:37.039 --> 00:33:42.799
I don't know if that makes any sense, but um, it was, I mean, like I said, this was 10 years ago.
00:33:42.960 --> 00:33:55.839
And as soon as you asked the question, I was like, I I mean, I remember the room, I remember the table, I remember the faces of the other teachers at the table because it it really stuck with me, the activity of of looking at work together.
00:33:56.640 --> 00:34:06.160
So I agree 100% a couple times, great, great process, great conversations out of that process.
00:34:06.640 --> 00:34:28.320
You know, and there's also like, you know, there's if you're able to get that's gonna be coming around because it's the next assessment process, but if you ever get invited or have an invite or see something come across for range finding or content review for any of these, you know, statewide assessment, that those are fun processes because that's what you're doing.
00:34:28.400 --> 00:34:40.480
You're looking at kid work and defining where is my range, what is a one or what is my whatever my priority is.
00:34:40.559 --> 00:34:44.079
So that's a that's a cool uh that's a great process.
00:34:44.239 --> 00:34:46.079
So we should do that.
00:34:46.239 --> 00:34:47.599
We should think about that sometime.
00:34:48.000 --> 00:34:48.719
I think we should.
00:34:48.800 --> 00:34:51.760
I well here, two two reasons for me to be asking.
00:34:51.840 --> 00:35:04.079
One, it's kind of that question one at the end of chapter five around like confidence or uncertainty around two teachers would assign the same grade, and made me reflect on my own classroom.
00:35:04.159 --> 00:35:20.719
And by the time I uh like my last year in the classroom, I was grading so radically different than my counterparts, it it would have it just would have been an exercise of futility because I wasn't sitting down and like grading assignments in like a summative sense.
00:35:20.800 --> 00:35:24.320
I was you know giving feedback in the process and working towards mastery.
00:35:24.559 --> 00:35:29.760
And so, like, like I don't even know how that how that would have worked if we engaged in that.
00:35:29.840 --> 00:35:38.559
And then there was one other time my first year of teaching where I was like, I'm doing a bad job as a teacher, and my kids are turning in garbage work.
00:35:38.719 --> 00:35:55.920
And like Carrie, like listening to you talk about that process made me think back to that and feeling just ashamed and embarrassed because like I was not uh like your kids, uh it's hard not to see your kids' performance on a task as a direct reflection of you as a teacher.
00:35:56.159 --> 00:35:59.119
We know there's a lot of things that go into it.
00:35:59.760 --> 00:36:01.679
And I'm sure I've told this story before.
00:36:01.760 --> 00:36:11.679
There's one time uh during the uh the S BAC, they're online, and there's this kid I had worked with so much over the year, tough home life, like, and he'd made some serious growth.
00:36:11.760 --> 00:36:14.079
And if he was just having a bad day, I don't know what it was.
00:36:14.239 --> 00:36:15.280
The kid just blah blah.
00:36:15.360 --> 00:36:20.480
He literally watched him write blah, blah, blah on his assessment, and he turned it in and sat there for three days.
00:36:20.559 --> 00:36:24.639
And I was like, oh, you know, that's not a reflection of me as a teacher.
00:36:24.719 --> 00:36:32.719
Like that doesn't, you know, uh, so there's things like that, but it's hard not to see our kids' products, especially in a co-grading environment, you know?
00:36:32.960 --> 00:36:41.920
And I'll never, my, my, my, my, my PLC member, who's this veteran teacher, uh, who like the next year went to go be an instruction instructional coach.
00:36:42.000 --> 00:36:46.239
Uh, we finished grading these things, and she looks me right in the eye and she goes, All right, not gonna lie, these suck.
00:36:46.320 --> 00:36:48.400
And I was like, oh no.
00:36:49.360 --> 00:36:52.159
She did a great job like coaching me through and things got better.
00:36:52.400 --> 00:37:01.760
But like hearing you tell that story, Carrie, like that had to be like you brought your own student work and had a bunch of strangers or like other people like look at your kids' work.
00:37:02.079 --> 00:37:04.639
That's like a no wonder it sticks with you.
00:37:04.719 --> 00:37:07.039
That's a crazy vulnerable move uh move.
00:37:07.199 --> 00:37:11.119
And it's not surprising to me that more people don't do it.
00:37:11.440 --> 00:37:14.480
Just because that's that's putting yourself out there, man.
00:37:14.719 --> 00:37:17.119
It is, yeah, to be judged.
00:37:17.360 --> 00:37:18.000
Yeah.
00:37:19.599 --> 00:37:29.599
I uh we've talked a little bit about the motivation factor around grades and grit determination and growth mindset.
00:37:29.920 --> 00:37:49.679
And if we can make the the statement that grades are not an effective motivator for learning, grades might be an effective motivator for for uh behavior, but grades are not an effective motivator for intrinsic value on learning.
00:37:50.000 --> 00:37:58.400
What are some ways that actually, before I ask a question, this always makes this makes me think of Carrie.
00:37:58.480 --> 00:37:59.519
I know you know you know who this is.
00:37:59.599 --> 00:38:00.079
You met him, right?
00:38:00.159 --> 00:38:00.800
Paul Anderson?
00:38:01.199 --> 00:38:01.840
I did meet him.
00:38:03.199 --> 00:38:04.320
I fangirled him.
00:38:04.480 --> 00:38:07.440
Ah man, I'd fangirl him too.
00:38:08.000 --> 00:38:16.800
Uh the uh I I watched him tell a story about a uh like the way he ran his classroom.
00:38:16.880 --> 00:38:18.800
It's probably like 10 years ago.
00:38:19.039 --> 00:38:34.880
And something he said just stuck with me, which was that at the beginning of the year, he used to like tell his students, or like the implicit communication to students was all right, your grade is the highest it's ever going to be.
00:38:35.039 --> 00:38:41.679
You are at a hundred percent, like you are there, like you've turned in the syllabus, you're one of one, right?
00:38:42.079 --> 00:38:48.079
And over the course of the year, your grade will precipitously drop to its final destination.
00:38:48.239 --> 00:38:59.280
And I uh I think it was this chapter, and there's definitely some places later on where Feldman talks about like the like the power of a zero and like how that can just like devastate, you know.
00:38:59.519 --> 00:39:05.360
And so like that, like your grade's gonna precipitously drop, but you will most likely never get back up to this 100%.
00:39:05.679 --> 00:39:12.079
Like you are just destined, and he followed that up with like think about how demotivating that is.
00:39:12.239 --> 00:39:18.480
Like if you went into your job and they were like, your salary is the highest it's ever going to be.
00:39:18.719 --> 00:39:23.679
And over the course of your career, you will precipitously drop to your value.
00:39:24.239 --> 00:39:53.920
And uh like that, and the thing that the stress that causes, and the and so if that's the the implicit message with our grades, potentially, what are some ways that teachers can start to develop a power of uh the a culture of prioritization of learning and embracing failure and a growth mindset in their classroom?
00:39:54.719 --> 00:40:00.000
I think I'll jump back to that past fail math class that we that we changed to past fail.
00:40:00.639 --> 00:40:07.360
Like we intentionally started with um like learning about how we learn.
00:40:07.519 --> 00:40:12.159
Like so seventh graders, and I it I think you could do this K-12 for sure.
00:40:12.239 --> 00:40:20.800
Like I think young learners could understand some basics, but we actually started like that first week together was like we learn through mistakes.
00:40:20.960 --> 00:40:25.280
This is how our brains work, this is how learning happens inside our brain.
00:40:25.440 --> 00:40:30.159
We actually talked about the brain science of learning with the kids.
00:40:30.320 --> 00:40:36.960
And throughout the year, I remember kids like would say something about, I, you know, I made a mistake, I'm learning.
00:40:37.119 --> 00:40:41.360
Like they would reference back to that time that we spent talking about how we learn.
00:40:41.519 --> 00:40:44.880
So we forefronted learning.
00:40:45.119 --> 00:40:49.519
Like we didn't, I don't I never talked to them about how they were going to be graded in that class.
00:40:49.599 --> 00:40:51.599
Because like I said, it ended up being past fail.
00:40:51.679 --> 00:40:53.199
It was if they were there or not.
00:40:53.440 --> 00:40:58.320
And um and I I mean, I saw that as powerful.
00:40:58.559 --> 00:41:01.119
Like, because like I said, the kids would refer back to it.
00:41:01.280 --> 00:41:10.719
They would refer, like, oh, I made a new wrinkle in my brain, or I don't remember all the things that we talked about with the brain science, but I but um but we did talk about how we learned.
00:41:10.880 --> 00:41:16.639
And I felt like that is what set the tone for the class is that we're here to learn.
00:41:16.880 --> 00:41:19.039
Like that is that's what I want to see.
00:41:19.199 --> 00:41:22.639
Every day you're coming in here trying to learn something new.
00:41:22.960 --> 00:41:23.280
Yep.
00:41:23.519 --> 00:41:26.079
And I know with go go ahead, Andy.
00:41:26.239 --> 00:41:32.000
No, I was gonna piggyback the same idea, this idea we're here to think and learn and work through stuff.
00:41:32.320 --> 00:41:38.960
And there'll be times where we're gonna have to sit down and I would need to capture what you know, but I'm also capturing what you know through the process.
00:41:39.039 --> 00:41:58.800
So what needs to change is like how we are getting kids engaged in thinking and learning instead of just the way we're I think traditionally we can manage receipts and knowledge consumption and moving up point values really easy.
00:41:58.880 --> 00:41:59.760
That's an easy thing.
00:41:59.840 --> 00:42:09.920
But what's hard, I think, is that if I if a student is working hard because they want to get that A, it motivates them to get that A, right?
00:42:10.079 --> 00:42:16.079
That looks the same as a student that's working incredibly hard because they don't want to get a D or an F.
00:42:16.639 --> 00:42:26.960
You know, and but you see it's the same, you know, work eth or work rate or how to get things done, but the motivation is almost completely different.
00:42:27.199 --> 00:42:43.599
So and but if we have those kids working together and having conversations and thinking about ideas, I can listen in and I can formatively check in and say, all right, this student is struggling with that ability to have whatever mindset or et cetera, whatever.
00:42:43.679 --> 00:42:49.519
We can build on that relationships, perhaps on the other sense of me just giving assignments and collecting.
00:42:49.679 --> 00:43:01.119
I never get a chance to see where the students are in that process of their motivation of why they're there or why they're what makes things like why are you performing to get evaluated?
00:43:01.599 --> 00:43:08.480
Because what that's what it feels like then, if you're just turning in stuff, or are you really trying to learn through a challenge?
00:43:08.559 --> 00:43:19.760
And you can pick that up do through your activities and through your tasks and your engagement in your class, which I think that's the hard part for I would love to hear teachers how you navigate that, right?
00:43:19.840 --> 00:43:34.639
Because you're like, I'm gonna put them up into a system where they're gonna behave and they're gonna have all these other issues that we're gonna have to manage, and I'm gonna end up having them sit down and just go back because it's an easier transactional way of me going through what really what they want.
00:43:34.800 --> 00:43:43.519
Parents want to see what what's their grade at the very end of the day, ultimately, which is kind of sad versus what did you learn or how much did you grow.
00:43:44.559 --> 00:43:48.559
So thank you, Carrie, for setting up your structure like that in your classroom.
00:43:48.880 --> 00:43:51.360
I would hope my c I wish my kid was in that classroom.
00:43:51.920 --> 00:43:52.159
Yeah.
00:43:52.480 --> 00:44:01.519
Well, unfortunately, I only have that in that one out of seven class parents a day that I had the or I felt the Freedom to Yeah.
00:44:01.599 --> 00:44:04.000
Well, my and again, we're gonna I'm gonna use my kids.
00:44:04.159 --> 00:44:05.360
Just came home, freshman.
00:44:06.079 --> 00:44:19.199
Missed something because of uh something, and she's like, now it's gonna be a zero, and now that's gonna be an F, and now I'm gonna be on probation, and now and now, and now and I'm like, This is like day two of our school year.
00:44:19.360 --> 00:44:21.039
You'll be what are you talking about?
00:44:21.199 --> 00:44:23.440
But that's already right in there.
00:44:23.599 --> 00:44:40.159
Just yeah, yeah, and I I think the because I remember doing similar activities with my uh students one of the years I was teaching about like this, like spending the first like week or so, like within the first week, about here's how we learn.
00:44:40.320 --> 00:44:55.920
Probably not as well as science carry over here, but the uh but I think the difference is I then probably followed it up the next day of like, and here's my syllabus with 90 to 100 is an A and 80 to 89 is a B.
00:44:56.000 --> 00:44:57.039
You know, like that.
00:44:57.199 --> 00:45:07.760
I probably just went undermined my work around like here's how you learn, but also here's this point system that like you've got this specific target you're shooting for.
00:45:08.000 --> 00:45:14.960
But by my last year in the classroom, I was starting off my school year by telling my kids you're doing every assignment until you get 100%.
00:45:15.679 --> 00:45:23.920
There was uh like the summative assessments, the truly summative uh things, those were one and done because they needed to be.
00:45:24.000 --> 00:45:26.000
I needed a dipstick of your present levels.
00:45:26.159 --> 00:45:32.400
But everything leading up to that, and like that can sound relatively intimidating to a kid.
00:45:32.480 --> 00:45:36.639
Like, I'm just gonna uh well, can there were typically two reactions?
00:45:36.880 --> 00:45:39.360
Either I'm gonna get 100% on everything, that's great.
00:45:39.519 --> 00:45:49.920
And they think that like I'm just gonna be a quote easy grader, but they don't realize is that getting 100% on something might mean doing a variation of that thing five or six times.
00:45:50.559 --> 00:45:59.760
And uh other kids just think it's gonna be a whole ton of work when you're not doing the exact same assignment three, four, or five times until you get it all 100% correct.
00:45:59.840 --> 00:46:00.880
You're taking the same quiz.
00:46:01.039 --> 00:46:03.760
It's we're targeting these different skills, you know.
00:46:03.840 --> 00:46:16.400
But that took a complete dismantling of the way I ran my classroom, you know, and I like I think that probably approached setting a culture of grit determination, perseverance with my students and a focus on the learning.
00:46:16.480 --> 00:46:21.679
Because like when they're coming up to me, like all my grading is done is being done collaboratively with them.
00:46:22.159 --> 00:46:24.960
And so they're coming up to me to give feedback.
00:46:25.440 --> 00:46:29.920
And I don't know, by the end of the year, they weren't expecting to just move on all the time, somewhere.
00:46:30.079 --> 00:46:31.039
Like it takes a while.
00:46:31.199 --> 00:46:35.519
But and then then the frustrating part is who knows what happens after they leave me, right?
00:46:35.679 --> 00:46:45.440
They go to a different, you know, they go to a different class, they go to different, you know, it's a but where the grading system looks entirely different.
00:46:45.760 --> 00:46:47.199
Like it yeah.
00:46:47.440 --> 00:46:59.119
It makes me think about the the learning target conversation about how learning targets need to be up on the board and like what are we communicating with students about learning targets and success criteria?
00:46:59.280 --> 00:47:03.679
Like, do they really understand what is the intention of today's work?
00:47:03.840 --> 00:47:06.880
You know, what outcome, that kind of stuff.
00:47:09.679 --> 00:47:12.880
Uh let's use this last question as a way to wrap up.
00:47:13.039 --> 00:47:21.199
Do you guys think of your work tasks as performance or mastery?
00:47:21.360 --> 00:47:27.760
And if you say both, then you have to give an example of both.
00:47:28.880 --> 00:47:30.719
Okay, ask me the question again.
00:47:31.039 --> 00:47:32.000
Do you here?
00:47:32.079 --> 00:47:34.079
I'll give you, I will give you an example too.
00:47:34.320 --> 00:47:39.679
Do you think of your work tasks as performance or mastery?
00:47:41.039 --> 00:47:47.280
And I I think the easy answer is mastery because we're talking about mastering something, right?
00:47:47.360 --> 00:47:53.280
And we we've given plenty of examples of like failure not being the end result.
00:47:54.719 --> 00:48:02.880
Uh and but I think like the jobs we're in are a good example of a blend of both.
00:48:03.199 --> 00:48:06.880
Because I remember specifically, you guys might have been there when this happened.
00:48:07.039 --> 00:48:17.760
I was doing a lesson in a school district, and I lead this lesson in this fourth grade classroom, and it bombs just so hard.
00:48:17.920 --> 00:48:21.760
Like I got 15 minutes into this lesson, I started sweating.
00:48:21.920 --> 00:48:24.000
My like fire flight reflex kicked in.
00:48:24.079 --> 00:48:25.360
I was like, I gotta get out of here.
00:48:25.440 --> 00:48:26.960
I'm supposed to be in here for an hour.
00:48:27.119 --> 00:48:28.159
Like, this is bad.
00:48:28.320 --> 00:48:28.880
This is bad.
00:48:29.039 --> 00:48:29.840
This is bad.
00:48:30.079 --> 00:48:35.519
Uh and we struggled through, and I ended up wrapping up like 10 minutes early or something.
00:48:36.159 --> 00:48:38.000
We've been back to that district a bunch.
00:48:38.159 --> 00:48:40.320
It was a learning experience with me and the teacher.
00:48:40.559 --> 00:48:41.920
Like, I learned a ton from it.
00:48:42.000 --> 00:48:49.840
I bring it up periodically because I then went back and there was a team of the EST people there, and I was like, I just had this lesson bomb, and we unpacked it.
00:48:50.000 --> 00:48:54.000
Like, why it didn't go well, and it taught us a lot about that person's classroom.
00:48:54.800 --> 00:49:07.920
However, if every time I went into a teacher's classroom, I bombed, or like what I was bringing to the table wasn't like I wasn't performing or delivering, I should get the boot, right?
00:49:08.079 --> 00:49:10.079
I don't I shouldn't be in this job.
00:49:10.559 --> 00:49:14.719
So I so like there's an element of performance.
00:49:15.199 --> 00:49:17.360
We get evaluated at the end of every year.
00:49:17.679 --> 00:49:22.000
And like I'm constantly under a sense of self-evaluation.
00:49:22.079 --> 00:49:26.079
So there is definitely an element of performance review there, like a grade.
00:49:26.239 --> 00:49:34.079
We know that we don't get them, but like but day to day, we are constantly learning and constantly failing and constantly growing.
00:49:34.400 --> 00:49:34.960
Yeah.
00:49:36.480 --> 00:49:39.599
When you asked the question, I thought performance.
00:49:40.159 --> 00:49:52.800
Um just be just because rarely, I feel like rarely am I asked to go do the same things, or at least not the exact same things, over and over again.
00:49:52.960 --> 00:49:55.039
So I was like, I feel like it's performance.
00:49:55.119 --> 00:49:56.960
It's what, you know, what am I doing in this moment?
00:49:57.039 --> 00:49:58.400
What am I doing in this next moment?
00:49:58.559 --> 00:50:00.159
What am I doing the moment after that?
00:50:00.320 --> 00:50:05.440
Like, because my job is not routine in any in any way.
00:50:05.599 --> 00:50:07.760
Every day is different.
00:50:08.079 --> 00:50:11.599
So that's where I that's where I kind of leaned on performance.
00:50:11.920 --> 00:50:16.000
Well, and I guess there is an element if is of like high stakes.
00:50:16.079 --> 00:50:21.119
If you go to a district and you don't deliver, you will not be going back to that district.
00:50:22.800 --> 00:50:23.599
Nope.
00:50:24.079 --> 00:50:24.480
Yeah.
00:50:24.639 --> 00:50:27.840
But master, I mean, I'm I think my goal is always mastery.
00:50:27.920 --> 00:50:30.639
Like I always want to deliver.
00:50:30.800 --> 00:50:33.360
Like I always want to have impact.
00:50:33.599 --> 00:50:35.599
I want time spent valuably.
00:50:35.760 --> 00:50:38.400
Like professional learning gets beat up out there.
00:50:39.039 --> 00:50:43.519
Teachers have all kinds of things to say about wasted time and professional learning.
00:50:43.679 --> 00:50:48.480
And I just don't ever want to be the wasted time in their professional learning.
00:50:48.719 --> 00:50:56.320
Um, but mastery is hard when we're just like a teacher in a classroom, we're faced with entirely different audiences.
00:50:56.559 --> 00:51:02.960
Like even if I'm doing the same thing, like grading for equity workshop, it's gonna be a different audience every time.
00:51:03.119 --> 00:51:06.480
So without, and I don't know these people, right?
00:51:06.639 --> 00:51:12.639
Oftentimes we might know a few of the teachers that that come in, but only on varying levels, right?
00:51:13.280 --> 00:51:18.320
Um so we don't have relationships, we don't know everybody's background.
00:51:18.800 --> 00:51:22.559
Just it's challenging, just like in a classroom, it's challenging.
00:51:24.480 --> 00:51:36.800
I would I I would lean towards the uh mastery and the as the uh we always revise, like even all of our Canvas courses, we've we ran them, we pilot them, we retweak.
00:51:37.360 --> 00:51:41.360
I think we do a good job of giving ourselves time, right?
00:51:41.599 --> 00:51:43.599
Like let's try this here.
00:51:43.760 --> 00:51:45.519
Okay, let's make it better.
00:51:45.760 --> 00:51:47.519
Or let's get feedback.
00:51:47.599 --> 00:51:49.039
Like we're always asking.
00:51:49.280 --> 00:51:58.559
So I don't know if that's everyone, but at least our team does a lot of like let's get feedback from folks and try to make it better to meet their needs, you know.
00:51:58.639 --> 00:52:04.880
But there is that part of well, uh, I always ask, well, I we're always asking, hey, how'd that go?
00:52:04.960 --> 00:52:05.519
What do you think?
00:52:05.599 --> 00:52:13.280
To whoever the supervisor or the principal or the the curriculum director at the district, because that's what it's about.
00:52:13.360 --> 00:52:17.039
Like, hey, did we make that connection with those teachers there?
00:52:17.119 --> 00:52:24.800
Um, or whoever was listening, but I hope that if we found bad feedback, we then would try to make it better or whatever.
00:52:24.880 --> 00:52:29.360
We try to, but there's like you're right, there's like that little bit of both.
00:52:29.679 --> 00:52:36.639
We have to perform and we get evaluated and ref instant feedback sometimes.
00:52:36.719 --> 00:52:46.239
People just walk out, or they'll just have their their laptops open having conversations about things that are definitely not what we're talking about.
00:52:46.400 --> 00:52:48.000
So that's always out there.
00:52:48.639 --> 00:52:51.440
Maybe in your PD, never in mine.
00:52:53.199 --> 00:52:54.000
Forgot.
00:52:54.320 --> 00:53:00.639
Never while we were listening to this podcast when they have been multitasking, doing something else.
00:53:00.960 --> 00:53:01.840
Yeah, exactly.
00:53:01.920 --> 00:53:11.280
But no, that was I I hope I think we do a good job of always trying like what do we meet the needs of everybody to make it better and then tweak it, like even these kinds of things.
00:53:11.440 --> 00:53:13.840
So it's a tough one.
00:53:14.079 --> 00:53:16.719
That motivates us, though, I think to get better at what we do.
00:53:16.880 --> 00:53:17.519
I hope.
00:53:19.119 --> 00:53:29.440
Uh probably, I mean, we'll I'm sure we'll say it a couple of times, but probably important to note a few times that the intent is not to just take all of these things and put them into your classroom.
00:53:29.599 --> 00:53:36.960
It's like here's some options, and none of these are going to be silver bullets, but some interesting things to think about.
00:53:37.280 --> 00:53:37.920
Yeah.
00:53:40.159 --> 00:53:42.239
All right, Carrie, say something profound.
00:53:42.639 --> 00:53:44.239
Oh, haven't I already?
00:53:44.559 --> 00:53:45.679
Ooh, that was good.
00:53:46.000 --> 00:53:46.480
Nailed it.
00:53:51.599 --> 00:53:53.280
Thanks for learning with us today.
00:53:53.440 --> 00:54:00.000
If something we said sparked a thought, made you nod, or something Andy said made you roll your eyes, we'd love to hear about it.
00:54:00.239 --> 00:54:05.840
Share the episode, tag a colleague, send it to your PLC, or just keep the conversation going within your own team.
00:54:06.079 --> 00:54:13.599
You can connect with us via the feedback form in the show notes, and we'd love to hear your thoughts, feedback, and suggestions for topics to cover in future episodes.
00:54:13.840 --> 00:54:18.559
We're all grown together, and that starts with paying attention to our own practice.