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Welcome to Analyst Talk with Jason Elder.
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It's like coffee with an analyst or
whiskey with an analyst while organizing
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a spreadsheet, linking crime events,
uncovering patterns, identifying a
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series, and getting the latest updates on
associations, training, and technology.
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So have a good walk, drive safely, or
enjoy your run while joining us as we
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define the law enforcement analysis
profession one episode at a time.
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How we doing, analysts?
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Jason Elder here with another LEA
Podcast Deep Dive: Did You Know?
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with Mike Winslow.
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And of course, we have Mike Winslow.
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Mike, how we doing?
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Good, man.
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How are you?
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I am doing well.
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Summer doing okay?
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Yeah, it surprisingly not as
hot as it should be in Arizona.
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It has been the last couple weeks,
but it started late, which is weird.
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So , it's been kinda nice, actually.
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Oh, I was too busy in July,
if that's such a thing.
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No, I can… I know how that goes.
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My birthday was in July.
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We went to Durango right before that.
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Had a big 4th of July to, to
celebrate the 250 at the house.
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So yeah, it was definitely a busy month.
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Yeah.
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Yeah, and then it's, and now it's
August, and the kids are going back to
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school, and, Yeah … it's just, yeah.
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It's
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crazy.
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Football will be here soon.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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And all that, and the holidays,
and all that other stuff.
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So yeah, it's I guess that's what
happens if you don't pay attention to it,
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yes, sir.
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All right.
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What are we talking about today?
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So today I thought this was
fitting based on, I actually have
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a trial that's coming up that I'm
testifying in just this, this week.
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I wanted to throw out some tips for
analysts when it comes to testifying
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and prep work for taking cases to court.
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It's one of those things that
it, I didn't do for the, kind
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of the first part of my career.
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But now especially if you work
in any type of phone analysis-
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I've been doing it a, a lot more.
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So it's one of those things
that if you haven't done it
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yet, it probably is coming.
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All right.
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So is these numbered, or is these
just not in any particular order?
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How do you wanna display these?
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So it's kinda like a, a dos and don'ts.
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Okay.
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A don't be that analyst
and a do be that analyst.
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Yes.
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Yeah.
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But it kinda fits in the,
in that same theme, right?
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So when we go into your dos, I
think the very first one that,
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that I put in was, is prepare.
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And that can be a ton of different things.
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But the biggest one, I think, is
meeting with the case detective for
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that case just to go over, especially
if it's the first time that you're
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doing this, just to make sure you guys
are on the same page and everything
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that you've done and created as far as
products and whatnot are good to go.
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And then the second would be actually
preparing with the prosecutor.
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In my experience, every prosecutor's
kinda got their own style on how they
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wanna tell this story to the jury.
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And if… You just, you wanna
make sure that you guys kinda
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see eye to eye on everything.
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Yeah.
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It is funny.
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I've only testified once in my
career, I was so worried about being
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cross-examined that the one question
that actually tripped me up was the
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one that the prosecutor asked me.
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And it was one that he just did on
the fly- … that we didn't go over.
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And I felt- Yeah … it was
something about me or my background.
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It was just, it was something simple,
but I struggled with it because
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I just wasn't prepared for it.
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And you bring up a good point when you
talk about something in your background.
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Part of that preparation is making
sure that you have an updated CV.
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One of the things I found out from talking
to other analysts outside of Arizona, so
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in Arizona, we the defense gets what's
called a defense interview, where they
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get to interview you before trial.
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And one of the things that comes up a lot
in those is your training and experience.
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And I can tell you, many a times,
a lot of the questions and things
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that they would wanna go after in
terms of why I'm qualified to speak
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on it can be covered in my CV.
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So you can send that right away,
and then they can go through that.
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I've had plenty that look through
it and go, "We don't need to
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go through the, your training.
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I already see everything on
here," and they're good with that.
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Now, not every state does
the defense interviews.
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I found out we're actually
pretty rare in that.
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But is, in terms of preparation-
I like it , based on some of the
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questions you get, you can kinda
see what road they might take when
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it comes to the cross-examination.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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I would think, too, that if they
do start harping on one particular
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aspect of your CV, that's also a
clue to let you know that, maybe you
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need to shore that up or update that.
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Yeah.
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Yeah, absolutely, and just making sure
that I… Mine, since I'm 18 years
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in, is starting to get quite lengthy.
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But one of the things that I've…
I made it a point to as soon as I do
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a training to go and update it, but
then having, like a an updated, more
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abbreviated one that maybe doesn't
have some of the tr- if it's, let's say
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it's just for phones, making one that
is solely just on the expertise that
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you have in call detail records and
phone analysis and things like that.
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You don't have to necessarily talk
about, the intro to crime analysis class
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that you took, because it didn't go
over anything in phones at that time.
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You can… you want it to be
comprehensive, but sometimes if it's
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way super dated, they might try to
go after that too, if it's like I
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haven't had training in this long."
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But as long as you're still working
in that stuff I think it's definitely
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still relevant and worth talking about.
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All right.
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Very good.
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So that's kind of your preparation.
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The next one is presentation,
and and that's visualizing
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some type of products, right?
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So have if you can, and, the depends on
what it is that you worked on, but having
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some type of visual that when you do go to
testify, say it's a link chart even of all
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the players that they want to go through
and you gotta talk about that piece.
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Having some type of visual is
gonna be huge when it comes to
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especially those visual learners
that, that you have in your juries.
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Note, I'm might be dating myself, is
do you recommend with that visual, is
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that actually a physical product or
is that something that electronically
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can show it up on a screen or
show it on a monitor or whatnot?
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S- great question, and it's gonna
depend on your courtroom not to date
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myself, but the very first- … one that
I did was an actual printed out map-
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Yeah
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…
that they put on a… Basically it
was like a… It's not… It wasn't
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like the overhead projectors from
school- … but it was like an overhead
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projector that, that put it on a screen.
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And now our courtrooms have modernized,
luckily, to where they can pull it up
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electronically, and not only does the
jury have a big screen to look at, I
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actually have one when I'm sitting on
the stand right in front of me that
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I can reference and look at as well.
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Yeah, and that's helpful.
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I mean-
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Oh, yeah
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…
it's nice to do that.
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I've told the story on the podcast before
that my only time of testifying, we had
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a map, it was on presentation board.
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And
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they- Yeah.
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Like the foam board?
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Yes.
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And they asked me "Oh, can
you come up to the map?"
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Like I'm a weatherman
or something like that.
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I said, "Sure," and they handed me a
laser pointer, and I… You would've
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thought that laser poi- pointer
was a fire hydrant, because- … I
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went to point to it and I was so
shaken that it didn't do anybody any
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good for me to try to point that.
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So I actually had to point
with my hand, not the pointer.
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That would've been a lot better
if I would've been able to just
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stay in my comfort zone sitting
in the chair as opposed to get up
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and actually try to touch the map.
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Yeah.
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I… it's funny, even in my own
presentations when I have my
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laser pointer, I always forget
especially at conferences when
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they have two screens- Right
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and you're on either side, and I
keep using one to point to- … and
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realizing that they're not looking
at that screen, or half the people
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can't see what I'm pointing to.
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So luckily, hopefully it's just
one screen that you're using,
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'cause that could happen too.
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Yeah.
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No, that that's good.
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And so then y- with those, those
visuals, that probably goes back
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with the prepare as well, to make
sure that lots of I's stay on that.
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Look at those products to just make
sure that there's no… Everything's
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correct and there's nothing that's gonna
bite you in- Yeah … your testimony.
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A, a big fan of peer reviews with
that, and, That, that helps big time.
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Luckily my wife is awesome at having
that editor view on things where I
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constantly will be like, "Hey, look at
this and just rip it apart." And it's
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a, it's really… And she's great at
doing that of "Here's all these things."
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And then I'm like, "Man, I didn't even
think about this." And if you get, you
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have that person that you can bounce
that stuff off of, that, coworker,
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someone you met at a conference that
does the same job, something like that,
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it's it's definitely worth its weight.
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Yeah.
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Very good.
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Anything else on presentation?
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That, I think that's about it.
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Really it, some of that can, there's
gonna be different specifics that
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come into depending on what it
is that you're presenting, right?
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When it comes to call detail records
anybody that's seen me present on those
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before, we talk about a bunch of different
types, they have your kind of flat static
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maps, and there's animations that you
can build and all these things like that.
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So really it's just, whatever it is that
you're comfortable with and making sure
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that it's not the first time you've ever
made it, and then running it by, like
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you said, another set of eyes, and then,
again, goes back into that prepare.
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Make sure that the prosecutor
likes that and that it fits in
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with what it is that they're…
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how they're doing their stuff
and that is what they want.
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Yeah.
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There's obviously an art to how
much detail to display, that can be
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difficult for any analyst, right?
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Yeah.
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That's can be the struggle when analysts
are just doing presentations maybe for
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a weekly comp stat or a weekly meeting.
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Like, how much detail do you
go into for your audience?
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Yeah.
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And knowing your audience, right?
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You don't know this jury.
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You don't know anybody, and you
don't know anything about them.
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You know the case, right?
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But you don't know what
backgrounds they have.
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And that, it does make it a little
bit difficult in that regard, where
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you want it to be detailed enough, but
you wanna keep it high enough level
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where you don't start losing people.
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And I- especially on the phone stuff, it
can be very easy to start going down a
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rabbit hole on something, and then you
see their eyes glaze over, and they're
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like, "What is he talking about?"
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Yeah.
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I think that's when it w- i'll ask
this: Would you, when in doubt, lean
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on your prosecutor in that case?
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Yes.
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Yep.
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What, what level of detail that
should you just be displaying?
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Yeah, and that's why I like having a
conversation with them, too particularly
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when it comes to, phone records.
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I did one defense interview for some
facial recognition that I did before,
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and it didn't end up going to trial.
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But if I had talked with that prosecutor
about that later I would wanna know
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their familiarity with that stuff.
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How have they seen it?
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How have they used it?
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Especially on the phone side.
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I've had a lot of prosecutors that
wanna call every cellular event
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a ping, which terminology-wise
it's not actually correct, right?
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A ping is where the phone carrier is
sending a locate to the device, and
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00:11:01,586 --> 00:11:03,316
it's on a 10 to 15-minute interval.
235
00:11:03,506 --> 00:11:05,876
We use it for live tracking of suspects.
236
00:11:05,966 --> 00:11:08,136
If I have historical records,
they're not pings, right?
237
00:11:08,136 --> 00:11:08,776
They're historical.
238
00:11:08,786 --> 00:11:09,526
They can't be that.
239
00:11:09,776 --> 00:11:14,176
And if the defense has a, their own
expert which has similar style training,
240
00:11:14,336 --> 00:11:16,826
that's the first thing they're gonna
try to do to discredit you of they
241
00:11:16,826 --> 00:11:19,296
don't even know what the terminology
is, 'cause they're calling these pings."
242
00:11:19,766 --> 00:11:20,046
Yeah.
243
00:11:20,596 --> 00:11:21,396
Yeah, exactly.
244
00:11:21,506 --> 00:11:24,896
And then the last, my last P
on the, of the do's, I realized
245
00:11:24,896 --> 00:11:28,086
I, I made them all Ps is poise.
246
00:11:28,196 --> 00:11:31,636
Just being confident in what
you're saying and what you have,
247
00:11:31,826 --> 00:11:35,136
knowing that you know your stuff
and you're gonna stand behind it.
248
00:11:35,246 --> 00:11:37,316
I think one of the things if you
249
00:11:37,716 --> 00:11:39,066
You're gonna be nervous, right?
250
00:11:39,126 --> 00:11:40,096
That's gonna be a thing.
251
00:11:40,646 --> 00:11:44,166
But that doesn't mean that you don't
know your stuff, and that doesn't mean
252
00:11:44,176 --> 00:11:49,786
that you can't still look confident
up there, and that you're gonna back
253
00:11:49,816 --> 00:11:53,236
all of the work that you did and
that everybody else did on this case.
254
00:11:53,426 --> 00:11:53,546
Yeah.
255
00:11:53,706 --> 00:11:58,626
No I've talked to a lot of analysts
who've testified, and it seems to me
256
00:11:58,626 --> 00:12:04,236
it's mixed in terms of what they actually
get in terms of cross-examination.
257
00:12:04,396 --> 00:12:04,726
Yeah.
258
00:12:04,736 --> 00:12:11,056
A lot of it is the data, and this is what
the data is saying 'cause that's m- maybe
259
00:12:11,056 --> 00:12:13,476
that's what the analyst is testifying on.
260
00:12:13,866 --> 00:12:14,126
Yeah.
261
00:12:14,176 --> 00:12:19,306
It's I think it's usually when the,
the analyst may be considered an expert
262
00:12:19,396 --> 00:12:24,356
and goes beyond the data to make a
recommendation or a conclusion- Yeah
263
00:12:24,506 --> 00:12:27,626
that you get more, more cross-examination.
264
00:12:27,766 --> 00:12:32,566
Yeah, it and it just depends, my
the very first case that I testified
265
00:12:32,566 --> 00:12:38,766
on, It was a burglary series case,
and the, the defendant ultimately
266
00:12:38,816 --> 00:12:40,206
ended up representing himself.
267
00:12:40,386 --> 00:12:44,576
And that being my first time in a
courtroom and doing that I remember even
268
00:12:44,576 --> 00:12:47,606
asking the detective at one point, I'm
like, "Is this how this normally goes?"
269
00:12:47,626 --> 00:12:51,416
'Cause- … it was a little more of
a circus because the guy was just,
270
00:12:51,476 --> 00:12:53,256
throwing out all this different
stuff, and he didn't really
271
00:12:53,256 --> 00:12:54,886
know what he was talking about.
272
00:12:55,276 --> 00:13:00,546
And Even though I was there to talk
about some phone mapping there was a
273
00:13:00,606 --> 00:13:06,936
burglary alarm call that was tied to
one of the cases, and I was asked if
274
00:13:07,096 --> 00:13:12,166
there could be a delay in when that
gets called to us from the alarm call.
275
00:13:12,396 --> 00:13:17,876
And they tried to object saying that
I had no experience in that field, and
276
00:13:17,886 --> 00:13:22,156
ultimately they determined that I did
because of the work that I had done at
277
00:13:22,156 --> 00:13:25,246
that time in burglary cases and looking
through reports and that type of thing.
278
00:13:25,246 --> 00:13:27,136
So they did let me give
my opinion on that.
279
00:13:27,686 --> 00:13:30,016
But they just as easily could've
been like, "Yeah, no, you're
280
00:13:30,016 --> 00:13:32,596
not an expert in this, so we're
not gonna ask you about it."
281
00:13:32,766 --> 00:13:35,586
So it kinda… Yeah, it's kinda
one of those weird things.
282
00:13:35,596 --> 00:13:39,136
But that kinda leads right
into some of the don'ts.
283
00:13:39,656 --> 00:13:44,086
And to your point on the data is
the data, the first one is don't
284
00:13:44,266 --> 00:13:48,056
overstep and speak to the records.
285
00:13:48,216 --> 00:13:53,076
The data is the data and you don't
need to necessarily infer a lot
286
00:13:53,076 --> 00:13:56,756
past that because that's where
they're really gonna start trying to
287
00:13:56,756 --> 00:14:01,836
fight it of, if it's a hearsay-type
thing or if it's just your opinion.
288
00:14:02,156 --> 00:14:03,936
Depends on what that opinion is.
289
00:14:03,996 --> 00:14:08,116
If… But if the data records, if this
is what it shows and they wanna try
290
00:14:08,116 --> 00:14:12,126
to fight it they're gonna have to take
that up with, say, again, back to phone
291
00:14:12,126 --> 00:14:15,316
stuff, with the phone carrier because
they're the ones that certified that
292
00:14:15,316 --> 00:14:16,816
these records are true and accurate.
293
00:14:17,476 --> 00:14:25,220
And I took these records and, used that as
my, my- basis for everything that I made.
294
00:14:25,280 --> 00:14:28,150
And I'm trusting that is true and
correct, and they're gonna have to
295
00:14:28,150 --> 00:14:30,760
take that up with the company if
they don't feel like that's the case.
296
00:14:31,390 --> 00:14:32,130
No, that's a good tip.
297
00:14:32,130 --> 00:14:32,600
I like that.
298
00:14:33,005 --> 00:14:36,305
The other one of don'ts
is don't overwhelm.
299
00:14:36,475 --> 00:14:38,755
And we kinda talked about this
a little bit already, right?
300
00:14:39,085 --> 00:14:39,915
Keep it simple.
301
00:14:40,005 --> 00:14:44,505
It's that whole KISS method
of just keep it very factual.
302
00:14:44,815 --> 00:14:50,935
Don't use a bunch of acronyms or
shortened things that, that, people
303
00:14:50,945 --> 00:14:54,095
that are industry terms that maybe
aren't necessarily understood.
304
00:14:54,395 --> 00:14:59,025
Try to keep stuff kinda at that higher
level and making it to where, a lot
305
00:14:59,025 --> 00:15:03,995
of these jurors are, their knowledge
of the way that cases and things like
306
00:15:03,995 --> 00:15:08,345
that work are based off of TV and
movies, which we all know is completely-
307
00:15:08,345 --> 00:15:09,575
100% accurate, right?
308
00:15:11,405 --> 00:15:11,875
CSI.
309
00:15:12,855 --> 00:15:13,415
Exactly.
310
00:15:14,195 --> 00:15:17,395
I can't tell you how many times
I've had to start it off with it's
311
00:15:17,395 --> 00:15:21,025
not like the movies where I can
just pull up a database whenever I
312
00:15:21,025 --> 00:15:22,555
want and pinpoint a phone." Yeah.
313
00:15:22,705 --> 00:15:25,705
And then it… And sometimes that,
that plays well 'cause there it's,
314
00:15:25,805 --> 00:15:29,125
gets a, a little light levity
in there and then is helpful.
315
00:15:29,135 --> 00:15:32,035
Another thing that kinda goes in with
that that I thought about when you
316
00:15:32,035 --> 00:15:35,505
are speaking, it's an interesting
dynamic 'cause you're gonna have
317
00:15:35,735 --> 00:15:39,925
either your prosecutor or defense
attorney that is asking the questions.
318
00:15:40,085 --> 00:15:42,955
And obviously you wanna look at them
when they're talking to you, but when
319
00:15:42,955 --> 00:15:46,295
you go to answer, you wanna actually
turn and look and talk to the jury.
320
00:15:46,395 --> 00:15:49,455
That is who is being
presented with everything.
321
00:15:49,625 --> 00:15:53,145
And that is where the
conversation kinda has to be.
322
00:15:53,485 --> 00:15:58,565
And for me, having done enough presenting
on top of this it's very, you get
323
00:15:58,565 --> 00:16:01,245
used to reading those non-verbal cues.
324
00:16:01,385 --> 00:16:04,895
And as you're looking at them and
explaining stuff, you can see looks on
325
00:16:04,895 --> 00:16:07,815
people's faces in terms of, "I'm lost.
326
00:16:07,985 --> 00:16:11,265
I'm not listening." Yeah. "I don't really
care about this," or, "This is super
327
00:16:11,265 --> 00:16:15,675
interesting and I'm totally locked in."
So you can use some of those to kinda help
328
00:16:15,675 --> 00:16:19,465
of "Okay, I might be talking a little too
high here. I might need to drop it down."
329
00:16:21,275 --> 00:16:27,605
It's funny 'cause what I'm gonna counter
to you is actually a Hollywood trial.
330
00:16:29,929 --> 00:16:34,349
'Cause I, it's interesting that you
bring this point up about talking to the
331
00:16:34,349 --> 00:16:40,369
jury, 'cause i- what instantly came to
mind was the Johnny Depp, Amber Heard-
332
00:16:40,559 --> 00:16:41,319
…
Trial.
333
00:16:41,339 --> 00:16:43,249
Was that last year, or was
that two years ago now?
334
00:16:43,279 --> 00:16:44,159
I can't remember.
335
00:16:44,159 --> 00:16:45,279
I think, yeah, it was a few years back.
336
00:16:45,319 --> 00:16:47,459
But- But I- … I remember
seeing clips from that one.
337
00:16:47,469 --> 00:16:49,189
It was, that was a interesting one.
338
00:16:49,509 --> 00:16:49,859
Yeah.
339
00:16:50,229 --> 00:16:55,009
But it w- it's interesting, 'cause one of
the things they talked about afterwards
340
00:16:55,139 --> 00:17:02,609
is the fact that when Johnny Depp talked,
He was looking directly at his attorney.
341
00:17:02,839 --> 00:17:03,169
Yeah.
342
00:17:03,229 --> 00:17:07,689
And they were just having a
conversation, talking about what
343
00:17:07,699 --> 00:17:14,189
happened When Amber Heard was
testifying, she was looking at the juror.
344
00:17:14,279 --> 00:17:14,579
Yeah.
345
00:17:14,639 --> 00:17:19,629
And the juror said that they felt
like they were being manipulated-
346
00:17:19,819 --> 00:17:20,669
…
From her.
347
00:17:20,809 --> 00:17:21,229
Interesting.
348
00:17:21,229 --> 00:17:25,349
And that she was, She was trying
to- So it was interest- yeah, it was
349
00:17:25,349 --> 00:17:31,239
interesting that they, so some, I, some
of the juror felt like, oh, it feel,
350
00:17:31,269 --> 00:17:33,139
felt like she was putting on a show.
351
00:17:33,139 --> 00:17:36,369
It seemed like they were having a
conversation about what really happened.
352
00:17:36,469 --> 00:17:40,299
So that's what came to mind, and I
might be misquoting some of that.
353
00:17:40,299 --> 00:17:44,919
But I do remember that particular aspect
about her testimony coming into question.
354
00:17:44,989 --> 00:17:48,519
And that's an interesting point
that even throw in a little more
355
00:17:48,519 --> 00:17:50,599
to mess that one, they're actors.
356
00:17:50,989 --> 00:17:51,279
Yeah.
357
00:17:51,279 --> 00:17:54,069
Are they truly trying to do that
'cause they have that skill?
358
00:17:54,429 --> 00:17:54,669
Yeah
359
00:17:54,769 --> 00:17:56,819
…
it's, yeah, that, that is interesting.
360
00:17:56,969 --> 00:17:57,329
Yeah.
361
00:17:57,489 --> 00:18:01,549
But since analysts aren't actors,
the, for this particular segment,
362
00:18:01,549 --> 00:18:03,159
we're gonna say talk to the juror.
363
00:18:03,709 --> 00:18:04,089
Jury.
364
00:18:05,109 --> 00:18:08,399
Yes I think it, it plays a little
bit better that way 'cause-
365
00:18:08,449 --> 00:18:10,009
It shows that's who you're talking to.
366
00:18:10,009 --> 00:18:12,989
And and again, this is a Arizona thing.
367
00:18:13,069 --> 00:18:14,689
Not every state has this.
368
00:18:15,029 --> 00:18:18,879
But one thing I do particularly like
that we have is the jury actually gets
369
00:18:18,879 --> 00:18:20,999
a chance to ask their own questions.
370
00:18:21,159 --> 00:18:21,349
Oh, interesting.
371
00:18:21,399 --> 00:18:26,499
So after it's, everything's done in
terms of your, if your prosecutor
372
00:18:26,539 --> 00:18:30,579
goes through theirs, cross-examination
happens from the defense, and then
373
00:18:30,949 --> 00:18:34,909
prosecution gets a, a last chance
essentially to bring anything else in.
374
00:18:35,329 --> 00:18:40,249
And then at that point if everybody's
good, they then open it up for the jury.
375
00:18:40,249 --> 00:18:42,249
The jury will write their questions.
376
00:18:42,249 --> 00:18:43,399
They go to the judge.
377
00:18:43,679 --> 00:18:47,999
The judge will look over and
sometimes they'll discuss with
378
00:18:48,139 --> 00:18:49,469
the prosecution and defense.
379
00:18:49,639 --> 00:18:54,929
And other times they'll, if it's good
to go they'll ask, and they'll decide
380
00:18:54,929 --> 00:18:59,769
whether or not it's a question that either
can be in there but then they'll ask.
381
00:18:59,769 --> 00:19:02,729
And then same thing, if they're asking
that question, then I'm definitely gonna
382
00:19:02,729 --> 00:19:04,499
be looking at them when I answer it.
383
00:19:04,659 --> 00:19:06,309
Did that ever happen with you?
384
00:19:06,309 --> 00:19:06,809
Did you get- Oh,
385
00:19:06,809 --> 00:19:07,069
yeah
386
00:19:07,129 --> 00:19:07,899
…
a jury question?
387
00:19:08,149 --> 00:19:11,869
Yeah, we I pretty regularly get s-
at least some kind of questions.
388
00:19:11,869 --> 00:19:16,529
I think it in that same vein as the
defense interviews in that I like to
389
00:19:16,529 --> 00:19:20,199
use that as a barometer of are they
picking up what I'm laying down.
390
00:19:20,529 --> 00:19:24,359
Depending on the type of question that
I get is it, hey, okay, it seems like
391
00:19:24,359 --> 00:19:27,589
they're understanding because they're
asking a really good follow-up question.
392
00:19:28,009 --> 00:19:31,479
Or if it's, pertains to something
I don't do at all, it's like, okay,
393
00:19:31,479 --> 00:19:34,273
there's still confusion with- this piece.
394
00:19:34,683 --> 00:19:37,873
And then I think that, that,
that can benefit either side
395
00:19:37,883 --> 00:19:39,833
depending on kinda how that goes.
396
00:19:40,253 --> 00:19:44,223
Like I said, I like that piece because
it makes you better in the long run
397
00:19:44,223 --> 00:19:48,033
because you can go, "Okay, every time
I've done this I always get this question.
398
00:19:48,223 --> 00:19:50,503
I should probably start doing
something about that." It's the same
399
00:19:50,503 --> 00:19:53,083
thing like when you took a test and
everybody got the question wrong.
400
00:19:53,223 --> 00:19:53,523
Yeah.
401
00:19:53,673 --> 00:19:56,553
They go after the question at that point
and go, "Okay, something was wrong with
402
00:19:56,553 --> 00:19:59,683
this question because everybody got it
wrong." It's that same kind of mindset.
403
00:19:59,803 --> 00:19:59,993
Yeah.
404
00:20:00,153 --> 00:20:00,793
Interesting.
405
00:20:00,923 --> 00:20:01,313
All right.
406
00:20:01,433 --> 00:20:02,293
Any more don'ts?
407
00:20:02,413 --> 00:20:04,563
The last don't, a- again, we
kinda covered this a little
408
00:20:04,563 --> 00:20:05,923
bit, is don't overcomplicate.
409
00:20:06,513 --> 00:20:11,643
And just being able to speak
in, your common layman's terms.
410
00:20:12,143 --> 00:20:18,823
Because they're not going to have any
insider knowledge, particularly to what
411
00:20:18,823 --> 00:20:20,603
it is that you're probably testifying on.
412
00:20:20,623 --> 00:20:26,053
So just know that you don't wanna be
adding a- especially if it's a complex
413
00:20:26,053 --> 00:20:30,413
case, like a homicide that has a ton
of, moving parts and things like that.
414
00:20:30,853 --> 00:20:34,063
Y- we don't need to be adding in
any other types of complications
415
00:20:34,063 --> 00:20:35,333
in the way that we're talking.
416
00:20:35,483 --> 00:20:35,903
Yeah.
417
00:20:36,293 --> 00:20:36,613
Yeah.
418
00:20:36,713 --> 00:20:41,213
'Cause to me I think I might add a
fourth one is don't over, overthink.
419
00:20:42,623 --> 00:20:43,373
And- I love that,
420
00:20:43,413 --> 00:20:43,933
actually
421
00:20:44,423 --> 00:20:49,153
…
what I'm, and what I… 'Cause I'm putting
myself in the shoes and this happens
422
00:20:49,183 --> 00:20:54,523
with my just obviously not testifying
and just working on any presentation.
423
00:20:54,823 --> 00:21:01,203
As, as an analyst with the analyst mind,
I'm anticipating issues and trying to make
424
00:21:01,203 --> 00:21:03,673
sure I'm prepared to work around issues.
425
00:21:03,823 --> 00:21:10,823
So as preparing for testimony, you
may be thinking about, oh, what
426
00:21:10,823 --> 00:21:14,193
questions can I, sh- should I get.
427
00:21:14,323 --> 00:21:14,553
Yeah.
428
00:21:14,553 --> 00:21:17,233
And you might want to oh, you know what?
429
00:21:17,253 --> 00:21:22,893
I'm gonna talk about this to just
in case to avoi- to anticipate the
430
00:21:22,893 --> 00:21:24,433
question to avoid the question.
431
00:21:24,553 --> 00:21:28,633
But you start going down that rabbit
hole a little bit of overthinking,
432
00:21:29,733 --> 00:21:31,763
then you're complicating the- Yeah
433
00:21:31,763 --> 00:21:35,773
the scenario because you're trying to
think of all the questions that you
434
00:21:35,773 --> 00:21:40,543
might be answering, need to answer,
and trying to answer them all at once.
435
00:21:41,063 --> 00:21:41,323
Yep.
436
00:21:41,873 --> 00:21:45,683
And I'll even while we're talking about
that, thinking I just thought of a another
437
00:21:45,733 --> 00:21:51,203
O don't, and that is don't overreact.
438
00:21:51,891 --> 00:21:57,341
And what I mean by that is it's the
defense's job to try and discredit you.
439
00:21:58,001 --> 00:22:03,331
And one of the ways that I feel like
they can do that is to do they're
440
00:22:03,331 --> 00:22:05,391
gonna be… They have to be respectful.
441
00:22:05,391 --> 00:22:07,021
They're not gonna be openly disrespectful.
442
00:22:07,021 --> 00:22:08,841
A judge isn't gonna allow that, right?
443
00:22:09,271 --> 00:22:14,331
But if they can do some things that
kinda get under your skin where it's,
444
00:22:14,401 --> 00:22:19,931
where you wanna have a reaction that is
negative- certain, and certain defense
445
00:22:19,931 --> 00:22:21,701
attorneys that, that's what they build on.
446
00:22:21,971 --> 00:22:25,821
As soon as they feel like they can get
you, they're just gonna keep pushing as
447
00:22:25,821 --> 00:22:30,391
much as they can th- that, that they'll
be allowed to make you seem discredited.
448
00:22:30,811 --> 00:22:35,891
So just take a breath, answer
the questions as, as, without
449
00:22:35,911 --> 00:22:37,421
adding too much on that stuff.
450
00:22:37,451 --> 00:22:40,451
You still wanna answer their questions,
but- … you don't need to be…
451
00:22:40,901 --> 00:22:45,011
Don't get roped into, to some of that
stuff if they're the type that tries.
452
00:22:45,021 --> 00:22:45,991
And not all of them do that.
453
00:22:45,991 --> 00:22:50,221
I will tell you I've, I've actually had
some very respectful and good defense
454
00:22:50,221 --> 00:22:53,791
attorneys that, you know, they'll,
they treat you just like anybody else.
455
00:22:54,111 --> 00:22:57,411
And I've had ones that treat
you completely like the enemy.
456
00:22:57,671 --> 00:23:01,341
So- Yeah … it, it depends on what you're
gonna get, but the best thing you can
457
00:23:01,341 --> 00:23:03,181
do is act the same towards all of them.
458
00:23:03,391 --> 00:23:03,581
Yeah.
459
00:23:03,601 --> 00:23:09,461
It's, it is funny because I feel that
many analysts are people pleasers.
460
00:23:09,611 --> 00:23:09,891
Yeah.
461
00:23:09,941 --> 00:23:12,001
And so they want to be helpful.
462
00:23:12,171 --> 00:23:16,381
And they don't want to be the
reason something went wrong, right?
463
00:23:16,461 --> 00:23:16,491
Sure.
464
00:23:16,581 --> 00:23:16,671
No,
465
00:23:16,671 --> 00:23:17,401
100%.
466
00:23:17,851 --> 00:23:22,791
They're very self-conscious about trying
to be helpful, trying to be a cog in the
467
00:23:22,791 --> 00:23:27,291
machine, but also they don't wanna be
the reason the whole thing isn't working.
468
00:23:29,319 --> 00:23:32,949
just a recipe for some of
these things that we're talking
469
00:23:32,949 --> 00:23:35,739
about the, the O's here.
470
00:23:35,869 --> 00:23:40,789
Trying to do too much, trying to
be helpful, and then really feeling
471
00:23:40,799 --> 00:23:43,495
badly if it, if it- doesn't go well.
472
00:23:43,605 --> 00:23:43,975
Yep.
473
00:23:44,105 --> 00:23:45,445
It's an interesting process.
474
00:23:45,475 --> 00:23:48,325
It's v- there's, it's one of those
things that I think is good for
475
00:23:48,325 --> 00:23:52,205
everybody to get some exposure to it
at some point- … in their careers.
476
00:23:52,245 --> 00:23:57,785
And and hopefully, it can be intimidating,
but it's definitely worth doing.
477
00:23:57,795 --> 00:23:57,815
Yeah.
478
00:23:57,955 --> 00:24:00,925
And there is a part of it that I
feel like is actually pretty fun.
479
00:24:01,115 --> 00:24:01,385
Yeah.
480
00:24:01,705 --> 00:24:04,205
And how many times have
you testified, roughly?
481
00:24:04,365 --> 00:24:06,155
Ooh, that's a good question.
482
00:24:06,175 --> 00:24:13,255
I feel like with this upcoming one
that I am probably seven or eight now.
483
00:24:13,405 --> 00:24:13,735
Okay, yeah.
484
00:24:13,915 --> 00:24:18,235
And a couple of them, so like this
one, the, my next one up is actually my
485
00:24:18,475 --> 00:24:22,025
second time testifying for the same case.
486
00:24:22,035 --> 00:24:22,225
Oh, okay.
487
00:24:22,285 --> 00:24:26,125
So I, this is the first one that I've
had where I've had to go multiple times
488
00:24:26,475 --> 00:24:31,295
because sometimes you get subject to
recall and they can call you back in
489
00:24:31,615 --> 00:24:35,885
if there's more stuff that they wanna
talk about, or defense will ask you to
490
00:24:35,885 --> 00:24:40,735
be subject to recall because they'll
bring an expert in and then wanna
491
00:24:40,745 --> 00:24:44,495
bring you back and show that stuff
and try to discredit you that way.
492
00:24:45,075 --> 00:24:46,005
Yeah, all right.
493
00:24:46,225 --> 00:24:46,625
All right.
494
00:24:46,655 --> 00:24:48,075
Is, and was that the last tip?
495
00:24:48,405 --> 00:24:48,685
Yep.
496
00:24:48,855 --> 00:24:49,485
All right.
497
00:24:49,535 --> 00:24:54,485
I gu- so, so I guess as we're finishing
up here, let's, if you could just
498
00:24:54,495 --> 00:25:00,675
maybe g- give me the Ps, give me the
Os, which, what should people know
499
00:25:00,735 --> 00:25:03,645
Mike, about testifying as an analyst?
500
00:25:03,815 --> 00:25:10,605
So just to sum it up in a quick and
kinda easy way be prepared, poised,
501
00:25:11,285 --> 00:25:13,075
and have something to present.
502
00:25:13,265 --> 00:25:16,095
Have all of those things
as far as your dos.
503
00:25:16,255 --> 00:25:21,425
And as far as your don'ts don't
overstate, overwhelm, or overcomplicate.
504
00:25:21,995 --> 00:25:27,075
It can be that simple even when
it's a super complex type of
505
00:25:27,075 --> 00:25:28,285
dynamic that you're working with.
506
00:25:28,405 --> 00:25:28,655
Yeah.
507
00:25:28,845 --> 00:25:30,235
And you added overreact.
508
00:25:30,395 --> 00:25:30,815
Oh, yeah.
509
00:25:30,815 --> 00:25:32,725
And then you added overthink.
510
00:25:32,945 --> 00:25:33,195
Yeah.
511
00:25:33,195 --> 00:25:35,175
So we had more don'ts than dos.
512
00:25:35,275 --> 00:25:39,775
But I like, though, that I actually like
those two and I'm totally gonna add those
513
00:25:39,775 --> 00:25:44,405
in when I do these in the future 'cause
overthinking, especially as an analyst,
514
00:25:44,405 --> 00:25:48,435
I can't tell you how many times just in
life I get, bogged down by overthinking.
515
00:25:48,505 --> 00:25:51,665
So sometimes the thing that
gives us our analyst superpower
516
00:25:51,665 --> 00:25:53,315
can also be our kryptonite.
517
00:25:53,475 --> 00:25:59,275
So to sum up the don'ts . So we have
don't overstate, don't overwhelm,
518
00:25:59,815 --> 00:26:05,945
don't overcomplicate, don't
overthink, and lastly, don't overreact
519
00:26:06,376 --> 00:26:07,076
Very good.
520
00:26:07,086 --> 00:26:12,646
And if folks have questions or comments,
Mike, for you, how can they contact you?
521
00:26:13,400 --> 00:26:17,270
Yeah if you have any questions or
comments, feel free find me on LinkedIn
522
00:26:17,270 --> 00:26:21,090
and we can connect and shoot me a
message if you have any questions.
523
00:26:21,420 --> 00:26:22,520
I'd be happy to help you out.
524
00:26:22,640 --> 00:26:23,010
Very good.
525
00:26:23,010 --> 00:26:27,520
And we'll put a link in the show
notes for Mike's LinkedIn account.
526
00:26:27,820 --> 00:26:32,500
And for the listeners hey, reach out
if you either thought of another do or
527
00:26:32,500 --> 00:26:37,070
don't that you wanted to add to this,
or you have any questions or concerns.
528
00:26:37,120 --> 00:26:41,670
Find us and comment wherever you find
us on social media, or you can always
529
00:26:41,700 --> 00:26:46,030
email me at LEAPodcasts@gmail.com.
530
00:26:46,570 --> 00:26:50,390
All right, Mike, as always,
thank you for your time.
531
00:26:50,400 --> 00:26:53,290
, It's always a pleasure to talk with you.
532
00:26:53,590 --> 00:26:54,270
Did You Know?
533
00:26:54,270 --> 00:26:55,520
with Mike Winslow.
534
00:26:55,560 --> 00:26:57,380
Mike, you take care and be safe.
535
00:26:57,540 --> 00:26:57,950
Thanks, Jason.
536
00:26:57,950 --> 00:26:58,260
You too.
537
00:27:00,120 --> 00:27:02,460
Thank you for making it to
the end of another episode of
538
00:27:02,460 --> 00:27:03,840
Analyst Talk with Jason Elder.
539
00:27:03,900 --> 00:27:07,350
You can show your support by sharing
this and other episodes found on
540
00:27:07,350 --> 00:27:07,480
our website@www.leapodcasts.com.
541
00:27:11,850 --> 00:27:15,000
If you have a topic you would like
us to cover or have a suggestion
542
00:27:15,000 --> 00:27:17,440
for our next guest, please send us
an email at LEApodcasts@gmail.com
543
00:27:19,715 --> 00:27:21,690
Till next time, analysts, keep talking.
00:00:01,533 --> 00:00:03,113
Welcome to Analyst Talk with Jason Elder.
2
00:00:03,433 --> 00:00:06,813
It's like coffee with an analyst or
whiskey with an analyst while organizing
3
00:00:06,854 --> 00:00:10,973
a spreadsheet, linking crime events,
uncovering patterns, identifying a
4
00:00:11,033 --> 00:00:15,213
series, and getting the latest updates on
associations, training, and technology.
5
00:00:15,954 --> 00:00:20,554
So have a good walk, drive safely, or
enjoy your run while joining us as we
6
00:00:20,573 --> 00:00:24,333
define the law enforcement analysis
profession one episode at a time.
7
00:00:26,098 --> 00:00:27,108
How we doing, analysts?
8
00:00:27,118 --> 00:00:32,138
Jason Elder here with another LEA
Podcast Deep Dive: Did You Know?
9
00:00:32,148 --> 00:00:33,608
with Mike Winslow.
10
00:00:33,618 --> 00:00:35,708
And of course, we have Mike Winslow.
11
00:00:35,718 --> 00:00:36,628
Mike, how we doing?
12
00:00:36,798 --> 00:00:37,078
Good, man.
13
00:00:37,078 --> 00:00:37,488
How are you?
14
00:00:37,838 --> 00:00:39,298
I am doing well.
15
00:00:39,318 --> 00:00:40,698
Summer doing okay?
16
00:00:40,838 --> 00:00:45,378
Yeah, it surprisingly not as
hot as it should be in Arizona.
17
00:00:45,378 --> 00:00:49,208
It has been the last couple weeks,
but it started late, which is weird.
18
00:00:49,218 --> 00:00:51,418
So , it's been kinda nice, actually.
19
00:00:51,568 --> 00:00:55,028
Oh, I was too busy in July,
if that's such a thing.
20
00:00:55,808 --> 00:00:56,968
No, I can… I know how that goes.
21
00:00:56,978 --> 00:00:58,128
My birthday was in July.
22
00:00:58,158 --> 00:01:00,588
We went to Durango right before that.
23
00:01:00,848 --> 00:01:04,718
Had a big 4th of July to, to
celebrate the 250 at the house.
24
00:01:04,718 --> 00:01:06,148
So yeah, it was definitely a busy month.
25
00:01:06,248 --> 00:01:06,648
Yeah.
26
00:01:06,918 --> 00:01:10,638
Yeah, and then it's, and now it's
August, and the kids are going back to
27
00:01:10,638 --> 00:01:12,958
school, and, Yeah … it's just, yeah.
28
00:01:12,958 --> 00:01:12,988
It's
29
00:01:12,988 --> 00:01:13,458
crazy.
30
00:01:13,658 --> 00:01:14,778
Football will be here soon.
31
00:01:15,428 --> 00:01:15,908
Yeah.
32
00:01:16,138 --> 00:01:16,548
Yeah.
33
00:01:16,548 --> 00:01:19,168
And all that, and the holidays,
and all that other stuff.
34
00:01:19,168 --> 00:01:22,548
So yeah, it's I guess that's what
happens if you don't pay attention to it,
35
00:01:22,698 --> 00:01:23,148
yes, sir.
36
00:01:23,318 --> 00:01:23,708
All right.
37
00:01:23,738 --> 00:01:25,138
What are we talking about today?
38
00:01:25,238 --> 00:01:29,058
So today I thought this was
fitting based on, I actually have
39
00:01:29,058 --> 00:01:32,968
a trial that's coming up that I'm
testifying in just this, this week.
40
00:01:32,968 --> 00:01:37,568
I wanted to throw out some tips for
analysts when it comes to testifying
41
00:01:37,568 --> 00:01:39,968
and prep work for taking cases to court.
42
00:01:40,248 --> 00:01:43,958
It's one of those things that
it, I didn't do for the, kind
43
00:01:43,958 --> 00:01:45,278
of the first part of my career.
44
00:01:45,278 --> 00:01:49,458
But now especially if you work
in any type of phone analysis-
45
00:01:49,912 --> 00:01:51,602
I've been doing it a, a lot more.
46
00:01:51,602 --> 00:01:53,852
So it's one of those things
that if you haven't done it
47
00:01:53,852 --> 00:01:55,722
yet, it probably is coming.
48
00:01:55,832 --> 00:01:56,392
All right.
49
00:01:56,402 --> 00:02:00,932
So is these numbered, or is these
just not in any particular order?
50
00:02:00,932 --> 00:02:02,412
How do you wanna display these?
51
00:02:02,762 --> 00:02:06,052
So it's kinda like a, a dos and don'ts.
52
00:02:06,272 --> 00:02:06,712
Okay.
53
00:02:07,082 --> 00:02:09,332
A don't be that analyst
and a do be that analyst.
54
00:02:09,572 --> 00:02:10,142
Yes.
55
00:02:10,182 --> 00:02:10,432
Yeah.
56
00:02:10,432 --> 00:02:12,592
But it kinda fits in the,
in that same theme, right?
57
00:02:12,922 --> 00:02:17,522
So when we go into your dos, I
think the very first one that,
58
00:02:17,612 --> 00:02:20,012
that I put in was, is prepare.
59
00:02:20,122 --> 00:02:22,192
And that can be a ton of different things.
60
00:02:22,442 --> 00:02:27,672
But the biggest one, I think, is
meeting with the case detective for
61
00:02:27,672 --> 00:02:30,562
that case just to go over, especially
if it's the first time that you're
62
00:02:30,562 --> 00:02:33,922
doing this, just to make sure you guys
are on the same page and everything
63
00:02:33,922 --> 00:02:37,702
that you've done and created as far as
products and whatnot are good to go.
64
00:02:38,372 --> 00:02:42,632
And then the second would be actually
preparing with the prosecutor.
65
00:02:42,802 --> 00:02:46,242
In my experience, every prosecutor's
kinda got their own style on how they
66
00:02:46,242 --> 00:02:48,102
wanna tell this story to the jury.
67
00:02:48,422 --> 00:02:51,952
And if… You just, you wanna
make sure that you guys kinda
68
00:02:51,952 --> 00:02:53,852
see eye to eye on everything.
69
00:02:53,992 --> 00:02:54,272
Yeah.
70
00:02:54,422 --> 00:02:55,122
It is funny.
71
00:02:55,142 --> 00:02:59,502
I've only testified once in my
career, I was so worried about being
72
00:02:59,502 --> 00:03:03,932
cross-examined that the one question
that actually tripped me up was the
73
00:03:03,932 --> 00:03:05,652
one that the prosecutor asked me.
74
00:03:05,792 --> 00:03:09,332
And it was one that he just did on
the fly- … that we didn't go over.
75
00:03:09,922 --> 00:03:13,582
And I felt- Yeah … it was
something about me or my background.
76
00:03:13,582 --> 00:03:17,462
It was just, it was something simple,
but I struggled with it because
77
00:03:17,462 --> 00:03:18,862
I just wasn't prepared for it.
78
00:03:19,362 --> 00:03:22,042
And you bring up a good point when you
talk about something in your background.
79
00:03:22,042 --> 00:03:26,972
Part of that preparation is making
sure that you have an updated CV.
80
00:03:27,152 --> 00:03:32,202
One of the things I found out from talking
to other analysts outside of Arizona, so
81
00:03:32,202 --> 00:03:36,642
in Arizona, we the defense gets what's
called a defense interview, where they
82
00:03:36,642 --> 00:03:38,472
get to interview you before trial.
83
00:03:38,732 --> 00:03:43,422
And one of the things that comes up a lot
in those is your training and experience.
84
00:03:43,512 --> 00:03:46,742
And I can tell you, many a times,
a lot of the questions and things
85
00:03:46,752 --> 00:03:50,842
that they would wanna go after in
terms of why I'm qualified to speak
86
00:03:50,842 --> 00:03:52,732
on it can be covered in my CV.
87
00:03:52,872 --> 00:03:56,302
So you can send that right away,
and then they can go through that.
88
00:03:56,302 --> 00:03:58,452
I've had plenty that look through
it and go, "We don't need to
89
00:03:58,462 --> 00:04:00,212
go through the, your training.
90
00:04:00,212 --> 00:04:02,652
I already see everything on
here," and they're good with that.
91
00:04:03,082 --> 00:04:05,702
Now, not every state does
the defense interviews.
92
00:04:05,702 --> 00:04:07,512
I found out we're actually
pretty rare in that.
93
00:04:07,652 --> 00:04:12,474
But is, in terms of preparation-
I like it , based on some of the
94
00:04:12,474 --> 00:04:17,274
questions you get, you can kinda
see what road they might take when
95
00:04:17,274 --> 00:04:19,314
it comes to the cross-examination.
96
00:04:19,314 --> 00:04:19,444
Yeah.
97
00:04:19,444 --> 00:04:19,694
Yeah.
98
00:04:19,814 --> 00:04:23,934
I would think, too, that if they
do start harping on one particular
99
00:04:23,934 --> 00:04:28,584
aspect of your CV, that's also a
clue to let you know that, maybe you
100
00:04:28,584 --> 00:04:30,354
need to shore that up or update that.
101
00:04:30,354 --> 00:04:30,824
Yeah.
102
00:04:30,824 --> 00:04:36,954
Yeah, absolutely, and just making sure
that I… Mine, since I'm 18 years
103
00:04:36,954 --> 00:04:39,104
in, is starting to get quite lengthy.
104
00:04:39,434 --> 00:04:42,374
But one of the things that I've…
I made it a point to as soon as I do
105
00:04:42,374 --> 00:04:46,914
a training to go and update it, but
then having, like a an updated, more
106
00:04:46,914 --> 00:04:51,354
abbreviated one that maybe doesn't
have some of the tr- if it's, let's say
107
00:04:51,354 --> 00:04:56,734
it's just for phones, making one that
is solely just on the expertise that
108
00:04:56,734 --> 00:04:59,964
you have in call detail records and
phone analysis and things like that.
109
00:05:00,414 --> 00:05:04,804
You don't have to necessarily talk
about, the intro to crime analysis class
110
00:05:04,814 --> 00:05:08,244
that you took, because it didn't go
over anything in phones at that time.
111
00:05:08,594 --> 00:05:11,714
You can… you want it to be
comprehensive, but sometimes if it's
112
00:05:12,054 --> 00:05:15,714
way super dated, they might try to
go after that too, if it's like I
113
00:05:15,724 --> 00:05:17,164
haven't had training in this long."
114
00:05:17,554 --> 00:05:20,674
But as long as you're still working
in that stuff I think it's definitely
115
00:05:20,674 --> 00:05:22,134
still relevant and worth talking about.
116
00:05:22,294 --> 00:05:22,494
All right.
117
00:05:22,564 --> 00:05:23,064
Very good.
118
00:05:23,594 --> 00:05:26,194
So that's kind of your preparation.
119
00:05:26,504 --> 00:05:32,204
The next one is presentation,
and and that's visualizing
120
00:05:32,314 --> 00:05:33,924
some type of products, right?
121
00:05:33,924 --> 00:05:38,914
So have if you can, and, the depends on
what it is that you worked on, but having
122
00:05:38,914 --> 00:05:43,984
some type of visual that when you do go to
testify, say it's a link chart even of all
123
00:05:43,984 --> 00:05:47,094
the players that they want to go through
and you gotta talk about that piece.
124
00:05:47,394 --> 00:05:51,084
Having some type of visual is
gonna be huge when it comes to
125
00:05:51,384 --> 00:05:54,534
especially those visual learners
that, that you have in your juries.
126
00:05:55,414 --> 00:06:01,634
Note, I'm might be dating myself, is
do you recommend with that visual, is
127
00:06:01,634 --> 00:06:07,774
that actually a physical product or
is that something that electronically
128
00:06:07,774 --> 00:06:11,114
can show it up on a screen or
show it on a monitor or whatnot?
129
00:06:11,264 --> 00:06:14,928
S- great question, and it's gonna
depend on your courtroom not to date
130
00:06:14,928 --> 00:06:19,858
myself, but the very first- … one that
I did was an actual printed out map-
131
00:06:20,008 --> 00:06:20,298
Yeah
132
00:06:20,348 --> 00:06:23,868
…
that they put on a… Basically it
was like a… It's not… It wasn't
133
00:06:23,888 --> 00:06:27,728
like the overhead projectors from
school- … but it was like an overhead
134
00:06:27,728 --> 00:06:29,908
projector that, that put it on a screen.
135
00:06:30,048 --> 00:06:35,318
And now our courtrooms have modernized,
luckily, to where they can pull it up
136
00:06:35,458 --> 00:06:39,378
electronically, and not only does the
jury have a big screen to look at, I
137
00:06:39,378 --> 00:06:43,018
actually have one when I'm sitting on
the stand right in front of me that
138
00:06:43,018 --> 00:06:44,828
I can reference and look at as well.
139
00:06:44,948 --> 00:06:46,328
Yeah, and that's helpful.
140
00:06:46,608 --> 00:06:46,648
I mean-
141
00:06:46,658 --> 00:06:47,048
Oh, yeah
142
00:06:47,108 --> 00:06:48,978
…
it's nice to do that.
143
00:06:49,028 --> 00:06:54,398
I've told the story on the podcast before
that my only time of testifying, we had
144
00:06:54,398 --> 00:06:57,008
a map, it was on presentation board.
145
00:06:57,738 --> 00:06:57,908
And
146
00:06:58,168 --> 00:06:58,358
they- Yeah.
147
00:06:58,358 --> 00:06:58,838
Like the foam board?
148
00:06:59,008 --> 00:06:59,428
Yes.
149
00:06:59,468 --> 00:07:02,018
And they asked me "Oh, can
you come up to the map?"
150
00:07:02,088 --> 00:07:03,868
Like I'm a weatherman
or something like that.
151
00:07:03,868 --> 00:07:10,133
I said, "Sure," and they handed me a
laser pointer, and I… You would've
152
00:07:10,133 --> 00:07:14,583
thought that laser poi- pointer
was a fire hydrant, because- … I
153
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went to point to it and I was so
shaken that it didn't do anybody any
154
00:07:19,273 --> 00:07:20,833
good for me to try to point that.
155
00:07:20,833 --> 00:07:23,173
So I actually had to point
with my hand, not the pointer.
156
00:07:23,233 --> 00:07:25,523
That would've been a lot better
if I would've been able to just
157
00:07:25,523 --> 00:07:29,213
stay in my comfort zone sitting
in the chair as opposed to get up
158
00:07:29,213 --> 00:07:31,203
and actually try to touch the map.
159
00:07:31,403 --> 00:07:31,893
Yeah.
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00:07:32,033 --> 00:07:34,873
I… it's funny, even in my own
presentations when I have my
161
00:07:34,873 --> 00:07:38,593
laser pointer, I always forget
especially at conferences when
162
00:07:38,593 --> 00:07:40,163
they have two screens- Right
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00:07:40,163 --> 00:07:42,713
and you're on either side, and I
keep using one to point to- … and
164
00:07:42,713 --> 00:07:45,713
realizing that they're not looking
at that screen, or half the people
165
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can't see what I'm pointing to.
166
00:07:47,173 --> 00:07:49,873
So luckily, hopefully it's just
one screen that you're using,
167
00:07:49,873 --> 00:07:50,793
'cause that could happen too.
168
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Yeah.
169
00:07:51,803 --> 00:07:53,043
No, that that's good.
170
00:07:53,043 --> 00:07:57,713
And so then y- with those, those
visuals, that probably goes back
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with the prepare as well, to make
sure that lots of I's stay on that.
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Look at those products to just make
sure that there's no… Everything's
173
00:08:09,053 --> 00:08:12,873
correct and there's nothing that's gonna
bite you in- Yeah … your testimony.
174
00:08:13,013 --> 00:08:19,453
A, a big fan of peer reviews with
that, and, That, that helps big time.
175
00:08:19,753 --> 00:08:26,043
Luckily my wife is awesome at having
that editor view on things where I
176
00:08:26,093 --> 00:08:30,203
constantly will be like, "Hey, look at
this and just rip it apart." And it's
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a, it's really… And she's great at
doing that of "Here's all these things."
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00:08:33,533 --> 00:08:36,283
And then I'm like, "Man, I didn't even
think about this." And if you get, you
179
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have that person that you can bounce
that stuff off of, that, coworker,
180
00:08:40,443 --> 00:08:43,083
someone you met at a conference that
does the same job, something like that,
181
00:08:43,083 --> 00:08:44,823
it's it's definitely worth its weight.
182
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Yeah.
183
00:08:45,513 --> 00:08:46,173
Very good.
184
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Anything else on presentation?
185
00:08:47,753 --> 00:08:49,333
That, I think that's about it.
186
00:08:49,333 --> 00:08:52,783
Really it, some of that can, there's
gonna be different specifics that
187
00:08:52,783 --> 00:08:56,033
come into depending on what it
is that you're presenting, right?
188
00:08:56,173 --> 00:09:00,013
When it comes to call detail records
anybody that's seen me present on those
189
00:09:00,013 --> 00:09:04,396
before, we talk about a bunch of different
types, they have your kind of flat static
190
00:09:04,396 --> 00:09:08,366
maps, and there's animations that you
can build and all these things like that.
191
00:09:08,666 --> 00:09:12,986
So really it's just, whatever it is that
you're comfortable with and making sure
192
00:09:12,986 --> 00:09:17,036
that it's not the first time you've ever
made it, and then running it by, like
193
00:09:17,036 --> 00:09:20,506
you said, another set of eyes, and then,
again, goes back into that prepare.
194
00:09:20,736 --> 00:09:23,836
Make sure that the prosecutor
likes that and that it fits in
195
00:09:23,836 --> 00:09:25,166
with what it is that they're…
196
00:09:25,486 --> 00:09:27,756
how they're doing their stuff
and that is what they want.
197
00:09:27,876 --> 00:09:28,146
Yeah.
198
00:09:28,856 --> 00:09:34,446
There's obviously an art to how
much detail to display, that can be
199
00:09:34,446 --> 00:09:36,576
difficult for any analyst, right?
200
00:09:36,576 --> 00:09:36,736
Yeah.
201
00:09:36,736 --> 00:09:41,386
That's can be the struggle when analysts
are just doing presentations maybe for
202
00:09:41,386 --> 00:09:43,566
a weekly comp stat or a weekly meeting.
203
00:09:43,566 --> 00:09:47,136
Like, how much detail do you
go into for your audience?
204
00:09:47,276 --> 00:09:47,576
Yeah.
205
00:09:47,966 --> 00:09:49,156
And knowing your audience, right?
206
00:09:49,156 --> 00:09:50,536
You don't know this jury.
207
00:09:50,536 --> 00:09:52,886
You don't know anybody, and you
don't know anything about them.
208
00:09:53,346 --> 00:09:54,806
You know the case, right?
209
00:09:54,836 --> 00:09:57,256
But you don't know what
backgrounds they have.
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00:09:57,346 --> 00:10:00,846
And that, it does make it a little
bit difficult in that regard, where
211
00:10:01,136 --> 00:10:05,446
you want it to be detailed enough, but
you wanna keep it high enough level
212
00:10:05,446 --> 00:10:07,046
where you don't start losing people.
213
00:10:07,046 --> 00:10:10,796
And I- especially on the phone stuff, it
can be very easy to start going down a
214
00:10:10,796 --> 00:10:13,686
rabbit hole on something, and then you
see their eyes glaze over, and they're
215
00:10:13,686 --> 00:10:15,936
like, "What is he talking about?"
216
00:10:18,346 --> 00:10:18,656
Yeah.
217
00:10:18,656 --> 00:10:22,856
I think that's when it w- i'll ask
this: Would you, when in doubt, lean
218
00:10:22,856 --> 00:10:24,416
on your prosecutor in that case?
219
00:10:24,426 --> 00:10:24,766
Yes.
220
00:10:24,776 --> 00:10:24,806
Yep.
221
00:10:24,816 --> 00:10:27,676
What, what level of detail that
should you just be displaying?
222
00:10:27,956 --> 00:10:30,956
Yeah, and that's why I like having a
conversation with them, too particularly
223
00:10:30,956 --> 00:10:32,796
when it comes to, phone records.
224
00:10:32,826 --> 00:10:37,966
I did one defense interview for some
facial recognition that I did before,
225
00:10:38,006 --> 00:10:39,586
and it didn't end up going to trial.
226
00:10:39,586 --> 00:10:43,696
But if I had talked with that prosecutor
about that later I would wanna know
227
00:10:43,696 --> 00:10:45,516
their familiarity with that stuff.
228
00:10:45,606 --> 00:10:46,516
How have they seen it?
229
00:10:46,516 --> 00:10:47,376
How have they used it?
230
00:10:47,596 --> 00:10:49,056
Especially on the phone side.
231
00:10:49,306 --> 00:10:52,916
I've had a lot of prosecutors that
wanna call every cellular event
232
00:10:52,966 --> 00:10:57,236
a ping, which terminology-wise
it's not actually correct, right?
233
00:10:57,236 --> 00:11:01,586
A ping is where the phone carrier is
sending a locate to the device, and
234
00:11:01,586 --> 00:11:03,316
it's on a 10 to 15-minute interval.
235
00:11:03,506 --> 00:11:05,876
We use it for live tracking of suspects.
236
00:11:05,966 --> 00:11:08,136
If I have historical records,
they're not pings, right?
237
00:11:08,136 --> 00:11:08,776
They're historical.
238
00:11:08,786 --> 00:11:09,526
They can't be that.
239
00:11:09,776 --> 00:11:14,176
And if the defense has a, their own
expert which has similar style training,
240
00:11:14,336 --> 00:11:16,826
that's the first thing they're gonna
try to do to discredit you of they
241
00:11:16,826 --> 00:11:19,296
don't even know what the terminology
is, 'cause they're calling these pings."
242
00:11:19,766 --> 00:11:20,046
Yeah.
243
00:11:20,596 --> 00:11:21,396
Yeah, exactly.
244
00:11:21,506 --> 00:11:24,896
And then the last, my last P
on the, of the do's, I realized
245
00:11:24,896 --> 00:11:28,086
I, I made them all Ps is poise.
246
00:11:28,196 --> 00:11:31,636
Just being confident in what
you're saying and what you have,
247
00:11:31,826 --> 00:11:35,136
knowing that you know your stuff
and you're gonna stand behind it.
248
00:11:35,246 --> 00:11:37,316
I think one of the things if you
249
00:11:37,716 --> 00:11:39,066
You're gonna be nervous, right?
250
00:11:39,126 --> 00:11:40,096
That's gonna be a thing.
251
00:11:40,646 --> 00:11:44,166
But that doesn't mean that you don't
know your stuff, and that doesn't mean
252
00:11:44,176 --> 00:11:49,786
that you can't still look confident
up there, and that you're gonna back
253
00:11:49,816 --> 00:11:53,236
all of the work that you did and
that everybody else did on this case.
254
00:11:53,426 --> 00:11:53,546
Yeah.
255
00:11:53,706 --> 00:11:58,626
No I've talked to a lot of analysts
who've testified, and it seems to me
256
00:11:58,626 --> 00:12:04,236
it's mixed in terms of what they actually
get in terms of cross-examination.
257
00:12:04,396 --> 00:12:04,726
Yeah.
258
00:12:04,736 --> 00:12:11,056
A lot of it is the data, and this is what
the data is saying 'cause that's m- maybe
259
00:12:11,056 --> 00:12:13,476
that's what the analyst is testifying on.
260
00:12:13,866 --> 00:12:14,126
Yeah.
261
00:12:14,176 --> 00:12:19,306
It's I think it's usually when the,
the analyst may be considered an expert
262
00:12:19,396 --> 00:12:24,356
and goes beyond the data to make a
recommendation or a conclusion- Yeah
263
00:12:24,506 --> 00:12:27,626
that you get more, more cross-examination.
264
00:12:27,766 --> 00:12:32,566
Yeah, it and it just depends, my
the very first case that I testified
265
00:12:32,566 --> 00:12:38,766
on, It was a burglary series case,
and the, the defendant ultimately
266
00:12:38,816 --> 00:12:40,206
ended up representing himself.
267
00:12:40,386 --> 00:12:44,576
And that being my first time in a
courtroom and doing that I remember even
268
00:12:44,576 --> 00:12:47,606
asking the detective at one point, I'm
like, "Is this how this normally goes?"
269
00:12:47,626 --> 00:12:51,416
'Cause- … it was a little more of
a circus because the guy was just,
270
00:12:51,476 --> 00:12:53,256
throwing out all this different
stuff, and he didn't really
271
00:12:53,256 --> 00:12:54,886
know what he was talking about.
272
00:12:55,276 --> 00:13:00,546
And Even though I was there to talk
about some phone mapping there was a
273
00:13:00,606 --> 00:13:06,936
burglary alarm call that was tied to
one of the cases, and I was asked if
274
00:13:07,096 --> 00:13:12,166
there could be a delay in when that
gets called to us from the alarm call.
275
00:13:12,396 --> 00:13:17,876
And they tried to object saying that
I had no experience in that field, and
276
00:13:17,886 --> 00:13:22,156
ultimately they determined that I did
because of the work that I had done at
277
00:13:22,156 --> 00:13:25,246
that time in burglary cases and looking
through reports and that type of thing.
278
00:13:25,246 --> 00:13:27,136
So they did let me give
my opinion on that.
279
00:13:27,686 --> 00:13:30,016
But they just as easily could've
been like, "Yeah, no, you're
280
00:13:30,016 --> 00:13:32,596
not an expert in this, so we're
not gonna ask you about it."
281
00:13:32,766 --> 00:13:35,586
So it kinda… Yeah, it's kinda
one of those weird things.
282
00:13:35,596 --> 00:13:39,136
But that kinda leads right
into some of the don'ts.
283
00:13:39,656 --> 00:13:44,086
And to your point on the data is
the data, the first one is don't
284
00:13:44,266 --> 00:13:48,056
overstep and speak to the records.
285
00:13:48,216 --> 00:13:53,076
The data is the data and you don't
need to necessarily infer a lot
286
00:13:53,076 --> 00:13:56,756
past that because that's where
they're really gonna start trying to
287
00:13:56,756 --> 00:14:01,836
fight it of, if it's a hearsay-type
thing or if it's just your opinion.
288
00:14:02,156 --> 00:14:03,936
Depends on what that opinion is.
289
00:14:03,996 --> 00:14:08,116
If… But if the data records, if this
is what it shows and they wanna try
290
00:14:08,116 --> 00:14:12,126
to fight it they're gonna have to take
that up with, say, again, back to phone
291
00:14:12,126 --> 00:14:15,316
stuff, with the phone carrier because
they're the ones that certified that
292
00:14:15,316 --> 00:14:16,816
these records are true and accurate.
293
00:14:17,476 --> 00:14:25,220
And I took these records and, used that as
my, my- basis for everything that I made.
294
00:14:25,280 --> 00:14:28,150
And I'm trusting that is true and
correct, and they're gonna have to
295
00:14:28,150 --> 00:14:30,760
take that up with the company if
they don't feel like that's the case.
296
00:14:31,390 --> 00:14:32,130
No, that's a good tip.
297
00:14:32,130 --> 00:14:32,600
I like that.
298
00:14:33,005 --> 00:14:36,305
The other one of don'ts
is don't overwhelm.
299
00:14:36,475 --> 00:14:38,755
And we kinda talked about this
a little bit already, right?
300
00:14:39,085 --> 00:14:39,915
Keep it simple.
301
00:14:40,005 --> 00:14:44,505
It's that whole KISS method
of just keep it very factual.
302
00:14:44,815 --> 00:14:50,935
Don't use a bunch of acronyms or
shortened things that, that, people
303
00:14:50,945 --> 00:14:54,095
that are industry terms that maybe
aren't necessarily understood.
304
00:14:54,395 --> 00:14:59,025
Try to keep stuff kinda at that higher
level and making it to where, a lot
305
00:14:59,025 --> 00:15:03,995
of these jurors are, their knowledge
of the way that cases and things like
306
00:15:03,995 --> 00:15:08,345
that work are based off of TV and
movies, which we all know is completely-
307
00:15:08,345 --> 00:15:09,575
100% accurate, right?
308
00:15:11,405 --> 00:15:11,875
CSI.
309
00:15:12,855 --> 00:15:13,415
Exactly.
310
00:15:14,195 --> 00:15:17,395
I can't tell you how many times
I've had to start it off with it's
311
00:15:17,395 --> 00:15:21,025
not like the movies where I can
just pull up a database whenever I
312
00:15:21,025 --> 00:15:22,555
want and pinpoint a phone." Yeah.
313
00:15:22,705 --> 00:15:25,705
And then it… And sometimes that,
that plays well 'cause there it's,
314
00:15:25,805 --> 00:15:29,125
gets a, a little light levity
in there and then is helpful.
315
00:15:29,135 --> 00:15:32,035
Another thing that kinda goes in with
that that I thought about when you
316
00:15:32,035 --> 00:15:35,505
are speaking, it's an interesting
dynamic 'cause you're gonna have
317
00:15:35,735 --> 00:15:39,925
either your prosecutor or defense
attorney that is asking the questions.
318
00:15:40,085 --> 00:15:42,955
And obviously you wanna look at them
when they're talking to you, but when
319
00:15:42,955 --> 00:15:46,295
you go to answer, you wanna actually
turn and look and talk to the jury.
320
00:15:46,395 --> 00:15:49,455
That is who is being
presented with everything.
321
00:15:49,625 --> 00:15:53,145
And that is where the
conversation kinda has to be.
322
00:15:53,485 --> 00:15:58,565
And for me, having done enough presenting
on top of this it's very, you get
323
00:15:58,565 --> 00:16:01,245
used to reading those non-verbal cues.
324
00:16:01,385 --> 00:16:04,895
And as you're looking at them and
explaining stuff, you can see looks on
325
00:16:04,895 --> 00:16:07,815
people's faces in terms of, "I'm lost.
326
00:16:07,985 --> 00:16:11,265
I'm not listening." Yeah. "I don't really
care about this," or, "This is super
327
00:16:11,265 --> 00:16:15,675
interesting and I'm totally locked in."
So you can use some of those to kinda help
328
00:16:15,675 --> 00:16:19,465
of "Okay, I might be talking a little too
high here. I might need to drop it down."
329
00:16:21,275 --> 00:16:27,605
It's funny 'cause what I'm gonna counter
to you is actually a Hollywood trial.
330
00:16:29,929 --> 00:16:34,349
'Cause I, it's interesting that you
bring this point up about talking to the
331
00:16:34,349 --> 00:16:40,369
jury, 'cause i- what instantly came to
mind was the Johnny Depp, Amber Heard-
332
00:16:40,559 --> 00:16:41,319
…
Trial.
333
00:16:41,339 --> 00:16:43,249
Was that last year, or was
that two years ago now?
334
00:16:43,279 --> 00:16:44,159
I can't remember.
335
00:16:44,159 --> 00:16:45,279
I think, yeah, it was a few years back.
336
00:16:45,319 --> 00:16:47,459
But- But I- … I remember
seeing clips from that one.
337
00:16:47,469 --> 00:16:49,189
It was, that was a interesting one.
338
00:16:49,509 --> 00:16:49,859
Yeah.
339
00:16:50,229 --> 00:16:55,009
But it w- it's interesting, 'cause one of
the things they talked about afterwards
340
00:16:55,139 --> 00:17:02,609
is the fact that when Johnny Depp talked,
He was looking directly at his attorney.
341
00:17:02,839 --> 00:17:03,169
Yeah.
342
00:17:03,229 --> 00:17:07,689
And they were just having a
conversation, talking about what
343
00:17:07,699 --> 00:17:14,189
happened When Amber Heard was
testifying, she was looking at the juror.
344
00:17:14,279 --> 00:17:14,579
Yeah.
345
00:17:14,639 --> 00:17:19,629
And the juror said that they felt
like they were being manipulated-
346
00:17:19,819 --> 00:17:20,669
…
From her.
347
00:17:20,809 --> 00:17:21,229
Interesting.
348
00:17:21,229 --> 00:17:25,349
And that she was, She was trying
to- So it was interest- yeah, it was
349
00:17:25,349 --> 00:17:31,239
interesting that they, so some, I, some
of the juror felt like, oh, it feel,
350
00:17:31,269 --> 00:17:33,139
felt like she was putting on a show.
351
00:17:33,139 --> 00:17:36,369
It seemed like they were having a
conversation about what really happened.
352
00:17:36,469 --> 00:17:40,299
So that's what came to mind, and I
might be misquoting some of that.
353
00:17:40,299 --> 00:17:44,919
But I do remember that particular aspect
about her testimony coming into question.
354
00:17:44,989 --> 00:17:48,519
And that's an interesting point
that even throw in a little more
355
00:17:48,519 --> 00:17:50,599
to mess that one, they're actors.
356
00:17:50,989 --> 00:17:51,279
Yeah.
357
00:17:51,279 --> 00:17:54,069
Are they truly trying to do that
'cause they have that skill?
358
00:17:54,429 --> 00:17:54,669
Yeah
359
00:17:54,769 --> 00:17:56,819
…
it's, yeah, that, that is interesting.
360
00:17:56,969 --> 00:17:57,329
Yeah.
361
00:17:57,489 --> 00:18:01,549
But since analysts aren't actors,
the, for this particular segment,
362
00:18:01,549 --> 00:18:03,159
we're gonna say talk to the juror.
363
00:18:03,709 --> 00:18:04,089
Jury.
364
00:18:05,109 --> 00:18:08,399
Yes I think it, it plays a little
bit better that way 'cause-
365
00:18:08,449 --> 00:18:10,009
It shows that's who you're talking to.
366
00:18:10,009 --> 00:18:12,989
And and again, this is a Arizona thing.
367
00:18:13,069 --> 00:18:14,689
Not every state has this.
368
00:18:15,029 --> 00:18:18,879
But one thing I do particularly like
that we have is the jury actually gets
369
00:18:18,879 --> 00:18:20,999
a chance to ask their own questions.
370
00:18:21,159 --> 00:18:21,349
Oh, interesting.
371
00:18:21,399 --> 00:18:26,499
So after it's, everything's done in
terms of your, if your prosecutor
372
00:18:26,539 --> 00:18:30,579
goes through theirs, cross-examination
happens from the defense, and then
373
00:18:30,949 --> 00:18:34,909
prosecution gets a, a last chance
essentially to bring anything else in.
374
00:18:35,329 --> 00:18:40,249
And then at that point if everybody's
good, they then open it up for the jury.
375
00:18:40,249 --> 00:18:42,249
The jury will write their questions.
376
00:18:42,249 --> 00:18:43,399
They go to the judge.
377
00:18:43,679 --> 00:18:47,999
The judge will look over and
sometimes they'll discuss with
378
00:18:48,139 --> 00:18:49,469
the prosecution and defense.
379
00:18:49,639 --> 00:18:54,929
And other times they'll, if it's good
to go they'll ask, and they'll decide
380
00:18:54,929 --> 00:18:59,769
whether or not it's a question that either
can be in there but then they'll ask.
381
00:18:59,769 --> 00:19:02,729
And then same thing, if they're asking
that question, then I'm definitely gonna
382
00:19:02,729 --> 00:19:04,499
be looking at them when I answer it.
383
00:19:04,659 --> 00:19:06,309
Did that ever happen with you?
384
00:19:06,309 --> 00:19:06,809
Did you get- Oh,
385
00:19:06,809 --> 00:19:07,069
yeah
386
00:19:07,129 --> 00:19:07,899
…
a jury question?
387
00:19:08,149 --> 00:19:11,869
Yeah, we I pretty regularly get s-
at least some kind of questions.
388
00:19:11,869 --> 00:19:16,529
I think it in that same vein as the
defense interviews in that I like to
389
00:19:16,529 --> 00:19:20,199
use that as a barometer of are they
picking up what I'm laying down.
390
00:19:20,529 --> 00:19:24,359
Depending on the type of question that
I get is it, hey, okay, it seems like
391
00:19:24,359 --> 00:19:27,589
they're understanding because they're
asking a really good follow-up question.
392
00:19:28,009 --> 00:19:31,479
Or if it's, pertains to something
I don't do at all, it's like, okay,
393
00:19:31,479 --> 00:19:34,273
there's still confusion with- this piece.
394
00:19:34,683 --> 00:19:37,873
And then I think that, that,
that can benefit either side
395
00:19:37,883 --> 00:19:39,833
depending on kinda how that goes.
396
00:19:40,253 --> 00:19:44,223
Like I said, I like that piece because
it makes you better in the long run
397
00:19:44,223 --> 00:19:48,033
because you can go, "Okay, every time
I've done this I always get this question.
398
00:19:48,223 --> 00:19:50,503
I should probably start doing
something about that." It's the same
399
00:19:50,503 --> 00:19:53,083
thing like when you took a test and
everybody got the question wrong.
400
00:19:53,223 --> 00:19:53,523
Yeah.
401
00:19:53,673 --> 00:19:56,553
They go after the question at that point
and go, "Okay, something was wrong with
402
00:19:56,553 --> 00:19:59,683
this question because everybody got it
wrong." It's that same kind of mindset.
403
00:19:59,803 --> 00:19:59,993
Yeah.
404
00:20:00,153 --> 00:20:00,793
Interesting.
405
00:20:00,923 --> 00:20:01,313
All right.
406
00:20:01,433 --> 00:20:02,293
Any more don'ts?
407
00:20:02,413 --> 00:20:04,563
The last don't, a- again, we
kinda covered this a little
408
00:20:04,563 --> 00:20:05,923
bit, is don't overcomplicate.
409
00:20:06,513 --> 00:20:11,643
And just being able to speak
in, your common layman's terms.
410
00:20:12,143 --> 00:20:18,823
Because they're not going to have any
insider knowledge, particularly to what
411
00:20:18,823 --> 00:20:20,603
it is that you're probably testifying on.
412
00:20:20,623 --> 00:20:26,053
So just know that you don't wanna be
adding a- especially if it's a complex
413
00:20:26,053 --> 00:20:30,413
case, like a homicide that has a ton
of, moving parts and things like that.
414
00:20:30,853 --> 00:20:34,063
Y- we don't need to be adding in
any other types of complications
415
00:20:34,063 --> 00:20:35,333
in the way that we're talking.
416
00:20:35,483 --> 00:20:35,903
Yeah.
417
00:20:36,293 --> 00:20:36,613
Yeah.
418
00:20:36,713 --> 00:20:41,213
'Cause to me I think I might add a
fourth one is don't over, overthink.
419
00:20:42,623 --> 00:20:43,373
And- I love that,
420
00:20:43,413 --> 00:20:43,933
actually
421
00:20:44,423 --> 00:20:49,153
…
what I'm, and what I… 'Cause I'm putting
myself in the shoes and this happens
422
00:20:49,183 --> 00:20:54,523
with my just obviously not testifying
and just working on any presentation.
423
00:20:54,823 --> 00:21:01,203
As, as an analyst with the analyst mind,
I'm anticipating issues and trying to make
424
00:21:01,203 --> 00:21:03,673
sure I'm prepared to work around issues.
425
00:21:03,823 --> 00:21:10,823
So as preparing for testimony, you
may be thinking about, oh, what
426
00:21:10,823 --> 00:21:14,193
questions can I, sh- should I get.
427
00:21:14,323 --> 00:21:14,553
Yeah.
428
00:21:14,553 --> 00:21:17,233
And you might want to oh, you know what?
429
00:21:17,253 --> 00:21:22,893
I'm gonna talk about this to just
in case to avoi- to anticipate the
430
00:21:22,893 --> 00:21:24,433
question to avoid the question.
431
00:21:24,553 --> 00:21:28,633
But you start going down that rabbit
hole a little bit of overthinking,
432
00:21:29,733 --> 00:21:31,763
then you're complicating the- Yeah
433
00:21:31,763 --> 00:21:35,773
the scenario because you're trying to
think of all the questions that you
434
00:21:35,773 --> 00:21:40,543
might be answering, need to answer,
and trying to answer them all at once.
435
00:21:41,063 --> 00:21:41,323
Yep.
436
00:21:41,873 --> 00:21:45,683
And I'll even while we're talking about
that, thinking I just thought of a another
437
00:21:45,733 --> 00:21:51,203
O don't, and that is don't overreact.
438
00:21:51,891 --> 00:21:57,341
And what I mean by that is it's the
defense's job to try and discredit you.
439
00:21:58,001 --> 00:22:03,331
And one of the ways that I feel like
they can do that is to do they're
440
00:22:03,331 --> 00:22:05,391
gonna be… They have to be respectful.
441
00:22:05,391 --> 00:22:07,021
They're not gonna be openly disrespectful.
442
00:22:07,021 --> 00:22:08,841
A judge isn't gonna allow that, right?
443
00:22:09,271 --> 00:22:14,331
But if they can do some things that
kinda get under your skin where it's,
444
00:22:14,401 --> 00:22:19,931
where you wanna have a reaction that is
negative- certain, and certain defense
445
00:22:19,931 --> 00:22:21,701
attorneys that, that's what they build on.
446
00:22:21,971 --> 00:22:25,821
As soon as they feel like they can get
you, they're just gonna keep pushing as
447
00:22:25,821 --> 00:22:30,391
much as they can th- that, that they'll
be allowed to make you seem discredited.
448
00:22:30,811 --> 00:22:35,891
So just take a breath, answer
the questions as, as, without
449
00:22:35,911 --> 00:22:37,421
adding too much on that stuff.
450
00:22:37,451 --> 00:22:40,451
You still wanna answer their questions,
but- … you don't need to be…
451
00:22:40,901 --> 00:22:45,011
Don't get roped into, to some of that
stuff if they're the type that tries.
452
00:22:45,021 --> 00:22:45,991
And not all of them do that.
453
00:22:45,991 --> 00:22:50,221
I will tell you I've, I've actually had
some very respectful and good defense
454
00:22:50,221 --> 00:22:53,791
attorneys that, you know, they'll,
they treat you just like anybody else.
455
00:22:54,111 --> 00:22:57,411
And I've had ones that treat
you completely like the enemy.
456
00:22:57,671 --> 00:23:01,341
So- Yeah … it, it depends on what you're
gonna get, but the best thing you can
457
00:23:01,341 --> 00:23:03,181
do is act the same towards all of them.
458
00:23:03,391 --> 00:23:03,581
Yeah.
459
00:23:03,601 --> 00:23:09,461
It's, it is funny because I feel that
many analysts are people pleasers.
460
00:23:09,611 --> 00:23:09,891
Yeah.
461
00:23:09,941 --> 00:23:12,001
And so they want to be helpful.
462
00:23:12,171 --> 00:23:16,381
And they don't want to be the
reason something went wrong, right?
463
00:23:16,461 --> 00:23:16,491
Sure.
464
00:23:16,581 --> 00:23:16,671
No,
465
00:23:16,671 --> 00:23:17,401
100%.
466
00:23:17,851 --> 00:23:22,791
They're very self-conscious about trying
to be helpful, trying to be a cog in the
467
00:23:22,791 --> 00:23:27,291
machine, but also they don't wanna be
the reason the whole thing isn't working.
468
00:23:29,319 --> 00:23:32,949
just a recipe for some of
these things that we're talking
469
00:23:32,949 --> 00:23:35,739
about the, the O's here.
470
00:23:35,869 --> 00:23:40,789
Trying to do too much, trying to
be helpful, and then really feeling
471
00:23:40,799 --> 00:23:43,495
badly if it, if it- doesn't go well.
472
00:23:43,605 --> 00:23:43,975
Yep.
473
00:23:44,105 --> 00:23:45,445
It's an interesting process.
474
00:23:45,475 --> 00:23:48,325
It's v- there's, it's one of those
things that I think is good for
475
00:23:48,325 --> 00:23:52,205
everybody to get some exposure to it
at some point- … in their careers.
476
00:23:52,245 --> 00:23:57,785
And and hopefully, it can be intimidating,
but it's definitely worth doing.
477
00:23:57,795 --> 00:23:57,815
Yeah.
478
00:23:57,955 --> 00:24:00,925
And there is a part of it that I
feel like is actually pretty fun.
479
00:24:01,115 --> 00:24:01,385
Yeah.
480
00:24:01,705 --> 00:24:04,205
And how many times have
you testified, roughly?
481
00:24:04,365 --> 00:24:06,155
Ooh, that's a good question.
482
00:24:06,175 --> 00:24:13,255
I feel like with this upcoming one
that I am probably seven or eight now.
483
00:24:13,405 --> 00:24:13,735
Okay, yeah.
484
00:24:13,915 --> 00:24:18,235
And a couple of them, so like this
one, the, my next one up is actually my
485
00:24:18,475 --> 00:24:22,025
second time testifying for the same case.
486
00:24:22,035 --> 00:24:22,225
Oh, okay.
487
00:24:22,285 --> 00:24:26,125
So I, this is the first one that I've
had where I've had to go multiple times
488
00:24:26,475 --> 00:24:31,295
because sometimes you get subject to
recall and they can call you back in
489
00:24:31,615 --> 00:24:35,885
if there's more stuff that they wanna
talk about, or defense will ask you to
490
00:24:35,885 --> 00:24:40,735
be subject to recall because they'll
bring an expert in and then wanna
491
00:24:40,745 --> 00:24:44,495
bring you back and show that stuff
and try to discredit you that way.
492
00:24:45,075 --> 00:24:46,005
Yeah, all right.
493
00:24:46,225 --> 00:24:46,625
All right.
494
00:24:46,655 --> 00:24:48,075
Is, and was that the last tip?
495
00:24:48,405 --> 00:24:48,685
Yep.
496
00:24:48,855 --> 00:24:49,485
All right.
497
00:24:49,535 --> 00:24:54,485
I gu- so, so I guess as we're finishing
up here, let's, if you could just
498
00:24:54,495 --> 00:25:00,675
maybe g- give me the Ps, give me the
Os, which, what should people know
499
00:25:00,735 --> 00:25:03,645
Mike, about testifying as an analyst?
500
00:25:03,815 --> 00:25:10,605
So just to sum it up in a quick and
kinda easy way be prepared, poised,
501
00:25:11,285 --> 00:25:13,075
and have something to present.
502
00:25:13,265 --> 00:25:16,095
Have all of those things
as far as your dos.
503
00:25:16,255 --> 00:25:21,425
And as far as your don'ts don't
overstate, overwhelm, or overcomplicate.
504
00:25:21,995 --> 00:25:27,075
It can be that simple even when
it's a super complex type of
505
00:25:27,075 --> 00:25:28,285
dynamic that you're working with.
506
00:25:28,405 --> 00:25:28,655
Yeah.
507
00:25:28,845 --> 00:25:30,235
And you added overreact.
508
00:25:30,395 --> 00:25:30,815
Oh, yeah.
509
00:25:30,815 --> 00:25:32,725
And then you added overthink.
510
00:25:32,945 --> 00:25:33,195
Yeah.
511
00:25:33,195 --> 00:25:35,175
So we had more don'ts than dos.
512
00:25:35,275 --> 00:25:39,775
But I like, though, that I actually like
those two and I'm totally gonna add those
513
00:25:39,775 --> 00:25:44,405
in when I do these in the future 'cause
overthinking, especially as an analyst,
514
00:25:44,405 --> 00:25:48,435
I can't tell you how many times just in
life I get, bogged down by overthinking.
515
00:25:48,505 --> 00:25:51,665
So sometimes the thing that
gives us our analyst superpower
516
00:25:51,665 --> 00:25:53,315
can also be our kryptonite.
517
00:25:53,475 --> 00:25:59,275
So to sum up the don'ts . So we have
don't overstate, don't overwhelm,
518
00:25:59,815 --> 00:26:05,945
don't overcomplicate, don't
overthink, and lastly, don't overreact
519
00:26:06,376 --> 00:26:07,076
Very good.
520
00:26:07,086 --> 00:26:12,646
And if folks have questions or comments,
Mike, for you, how can they contact you?
521
00:26:13,400 --> 00:26:17,270
Yeah if you have any questions or
comments, feel free find me on LinkedIn
522
00:26:17,270 --> 00:26:21,090
and we can connect and shoot me a
message if you have any questions.
523
00:26:21,420 --> 00:26:22,520
I'd be happy to help you out.
524
00:26:22,640 --> 00:26:23,010
Very good.
525
00:26:23,010 --> 00:26:27,520
And we'll put a link in the show
notes for Mike's LinkedIn account.
526
00:26:27,820 --> 00:26:32,500
And for the listeners hey, reach out
if you either thought of another do or
527
00:26:32,500 --> 00:26:37,070
don't that you wanted to add to this,
or you have any questions or concerns.
528
00:26:37,120 --> 00:26:41,670
Find us and comment wherever you find
us on social media, or you can always
529
00:26:41,700 --> 00:26:46,030
email me at LEAPodcasts@gmail.com.
530
00:26:46,570 --> 00:26:50,390
All right, Mike, as always,
thank you for your time.
531
00:26:50,400 --> 00:26:53,290
, It's always a pleasure to talk with you.
532
00:26:53,590 --> 00:26:54,270
Did You Know?
533
00:26:54,270 --> 00:26:55,520
with Mike Winslow.
534
00:26:55,560 --> 00:26:57,380
Mike, you take care and be safe.
535
00:26:57,540 --> 00:26:57,950
Thanks, Jason.
536
00:26:57,950 --> 00:26:58,260
You too.
537
00:27:00,120 --> 00:27:02,460
Thank you for making it to
the end of another episode of
538
00:27:02,460 --> 00:27:03,840
Analyst Talk with Jason Elder.
539
00:27:03,900 --> 00:27:07,350
You can show your support by sharing
this and other episodes found on
540
00:27:07,350 --> 00:27:07,480
our website@www.leapodcasts.com.
541
00:27:11,850 --> 00:27:15,000
If you have a topic you would like
us to cover or have a suggestion
542
00:27:15,000 --> 00:27:17,440
for our next guest, please send us
an email at LEApodcasts@gmail.com
543
00:27:19,715 --> 00:27:21,690
Till next time, analysts, keep talking.
