Analyst Talk - Chris Mason - The Silver Lining Analyst

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Welcome to Analyst Talk with Jason Elder.
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It's like coffee with an analyst or
whiskey with an analyst while organizing
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a spreadsheet, linking crime events,
uncovering patterns, identifying a
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series, and getting the latest updates on
associations, training, and technology.
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So have a good walk, drive safely, or
enjoy your run while joining us as we
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define the law enforcement analysis
profession one episode at a time.
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Thank you for joining me.
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I hope many aspects of
your life are progressing.
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My name is Jason Elder, and today
our guest has 21 years of law
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enforcement analysis experience.
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He is currently the crime analyst
at Riverside County Sheriff's
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Department in California.
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He has a certification from California
State University, Cal State Fullerton.
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He also has a Master's of
Science in Criminal Justice
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from Cal State Long Beach.
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He is the director of the Association
of Law Enforcement Intelligence
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Units, also known as LEIU, he's
here to talk about, among other
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things, the role of analysts play in
multidisciplinary public safety efforts.
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Please welcome Chris Mason.
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Chris, how we doing?
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Doing great.
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It's good to be with you, and
thanks for the invite, Jason.
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Very good.
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I've been doing this for a long time,
and then I forgot to ask you the one
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key question before I hit record.
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Do you go by Chris or Christopher?
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I go by Chris.
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Okay.
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All right.
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So I didn't mess that up in the
introduction, but as I just got to
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that point, I was like, "Oh, I forgot
to ask him which one he goes by."
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Right.
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But all so how is Riverside?
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How is California these days?
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It's good.
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You can't beat the weather.
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We're in the middle of going
through a governor change, but
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other than that, I'm I'm happy.
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It's a good place to live, and a good
place to work where I'm at currently,
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.
Yeah.
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Well, we're gonna get to talking
about change in leadership more at the
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police department level later in this
interview, definitely looking forward to
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hearing your story and your perspective,
but let's start from the beginning.
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How did you discover the law
enforcement analysis profession?
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Yeah, so I think my journey
started back when I was a teenager.
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I was probably 14, 15, somewhere
around that age category.
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And some friends of my family worked
for the Anaheim- Police Department
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out here in Southern California.
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At that point, they were looking to
start an afterschool program for kids.
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It got my interest piqued
early on in my life.
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With regard to my interaction
with law enforcement, what
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they were about, and then their
actual care for their community.
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And as I progressed through
that, I was interested.
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I was a martial artist at the time.
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I'm like, " Being a cop is probably a
good progression into this." So I started
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going on ride-alongs learning a little
bit about what they do asking questions.
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You always ask questions as
you're on the ride-alongs.
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Oh, "Why'd you do this," or,
"How do you handle this?"
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, so if you fast-forward there to,
from that point forward that aimed my
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trajectory toward criminal justice.
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So when I got to college I started
as a criminal justice major
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at Cal State Fullerton, as you
mentioned in the introduction.
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I had wholeheartedly had
my mind set on being a law
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enforcement officer at that point.
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I knew education allowed for me
to potentially have an increase
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in pay later in the career.
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I did know that much, so I
was like I at least wanna get
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a bachelor's degree." Yeah.
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And that's what my dad was actually
pushing me to do as well because he
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had not finished his degree, and he's
"This degree is really important to
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me. You're gonna finish your degree,
or go get a job," one or the other.
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Yeah.
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So, so I was in that, that realm
of going to school full time at
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that point, working part time.
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And as I got into basically what would…
Part of the major program was basically
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a theories of crime class, and that
really changed the mindset from being
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a law enforcement officer mindset to,
"Hey, I have this gift, gifting that I
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didn't really know I had," and it was
to apply a- analysis within this domain.
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And it started with me writing
a term paper for that class and
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getting a 99% on the term paper,
which was, like, unheard of.
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I think I had the highest
grade in the class.
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So, so I started talking to the
instructor afterwards during office
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hours and and sh- she basically said,
"Yeah, you have a great analytical mind.
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This is good.
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You should go into research."
I started looking at research.
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I'm like, "Well, that's not for me."
So in, in my next class after that,
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one of my one of my fellow students, I
told her about "This is what I'm kinda
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thinking, but I don't know if there's
anything in this domain." She's you know
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in extended education they have this
crime intelligence analysis program.
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It might be right down your alley.
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You might wanna go check it
out." I had no idea what this
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was. I was like, "Interesting.
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Let me take a walk after class." So I
took a walk over to the office and asked
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them about it, got some information.
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I'm like, "This is more my speed."
This, to apply the the analysis
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within the law enforcement domain
for purposes of supporting officers.
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And I'm like, "I don't have to be out
on the street, don't have to deal with
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the riffraff. I don't have to deal
with any of that, but yet I can still
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be part of this process of keeping the
community safe." And that's what aimed
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my trajectory toward the crime analysis
and intelligence analysis domain.
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So, obviously, as I was going through my
master's degree at Cal State Long Beach,
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as you mentioned also I was going through
this certificate program at the time.
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It was being offered
at Cal State Fullerton.
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The California Department of Justice
was stamping it as well, and they had
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collectively together built the program
and built the classes into what it was.
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So I went through that and it
was like I, I don't know, 10
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weeks of Mondays at that point.
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Now it's on the weekend
because they got smart.
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Yeah.
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But at the time 10 or 12 weeks of
Mondays for three or four hours.
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And, Wow … so it took me some
time to go through that program.
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But once I finally did I was
introduced to the supervisor.
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I think you've had him
on your show before.
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It was Brian Gray.
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Yes.
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Yep.
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I was introduced to him.
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He was an instructor with this program
at the time, and he and I just hit
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it off and we were chatting, and
I ended up saying, "You know what?
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I like what they're
doing over at Riverside.
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I'm looking for an internship,"
and I I basically talked to him and
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said, "Hey, dude, what does it take
to get into an internship?" And he
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guided me through the process of
the background check and everything.
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So that's how I actually got
into the internship program of
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this com- of this certificate.
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And then from there, I would say a couple
years later I was hired on as a crime
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analyst, and I've been there for 21 years
in various, I would say probably almost
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darn near every function there was.
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So I started as a supporting
criminal intelligence.
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From there I, I did a stint over at
San Bernardino Probation Department,
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learned about AB 109 when that was a
thing where they were state was giving
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money for releasing various people back
to the state lo- in local jurisdictions.
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And then I came back and
then I've been in homicide.
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I've worked a station.
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Station would be the equivalent of working
a police department because we have
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11 different stations for the county.
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So I was working as a
station crime analyst.
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I've worked in an administrative faction.
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I worked central homicide
unit for a little while.
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And then I found myself work- in my
current position, which is unique as
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well, which is doing overdose surveillance
embedded with public health, and that's
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my current assignment right now, and
it's more statistical driven than
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it is intelligence or other things.
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So that's kinda like the short version
of my journey into this profession
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and where I find myself today.
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So when you decide to go next door
to talk about- … the certificate
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program at Cal State Fullerton once
you're know that's the path that you're
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taking, is that what triggers you to
then just stay on to get a master's
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degree and then get the certificate,
or was there another reason why you
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got a master's degree at that time?
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Yeah, that's a great question.
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When I was introduced to the
certificate program, it was at the
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tail end of my bachelor's degree.
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And so I graduated, and I had only been in
this program for maybe one or two classes.
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I still had no idea what I wanted to do.
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It's like I I know I probably
don't wanna be a law enforcement
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officer at this point.
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I I steered away from that.
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But then at the same time, I'm
like, "Well, what do I wanna do?
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I don't know yet." "But I don't wanna
stay stagnant, so let's go get a
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master's degree." It's "Let me keep
this, the ball rolling because if I
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stop, I don't know where I'm gonna
find myself." So, that was what spawned
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me going for my master's degree.
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It was basically a last-minute decision
probably a month before the application
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was due for the master's program.
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And I was like, "I'm just gonna go ahead
and do it. We'll get into this, and
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I'll figure it out in the next two and
a half years." So that's that's why I
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ended up going for a master's degree.
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It helped me later in life.
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I'm now teaching and such, so
it, it actually worked out in
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my benefit in the long run.
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Yeah.
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Well, the younger listeners are probably
gritting their teeth because- college
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debt is a real big thing these days,
but yet you have to understand back in
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the, '90s and aughts when we were going
to school, I- I did something similar.
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I went to school- Yeah … until
I found a job, and but it wasn't
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that I went into tens of thousands
of dollars in debt doing it.
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I was able to do it in
probably less than $10,000.
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So it was something that I was
able to just keep on going, whereas
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today, man, you just, you can
dig yourself a pretty big hole
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trying to go until you find a job.
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But during this time, it's, to go and
just explore and to still be learning
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it is a great opportunity- … to
just find where you belong.
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Yeah, and the certificate
program in particular, it's
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not a full degree program.
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It's at the time it was eight classes.
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I think now it's… I think they,
they have dumbed that down to about
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seven and it's evolved over time.
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But you're only talking about 7 or $8,000
to put yourself through the certificate
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program, and it's specific to this domain.
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And it's it's one… I- if anybody's
interested in this environment, that's
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usually the first place I point them to
or some equivalent, because it's not just
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a general criminal justice knowledge.
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It's specific to crime analysis,
which is a a unique subset within
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criminal the criminal justice system.
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So, I, I don't, I alwa- a- and of course,
I have a daughter too, so I'm like, I
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don't want you to get into debt over this,
so if you don't know what you're gonna do,
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go to city college, let's mitigate this."
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I put her through dual enrollment
'cause we were homeschooling her.
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There's a lot of things that we
could do- Yeah … to mitigate that
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cost, but I am also not a fan of
accruing debt without direction.
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And, Yeah … a- and so yeah,
so do it as affordably as
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possible, obviously as money goes.
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Yeah.
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So I guess while we're on the
topic- … did you load up all your
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education kinda on u- up front, right?
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And as opposed to o- Yeah … over time.
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So you got your bachelor's, you
got your master's, you got your
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certificate all up front, right?
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And then you walk into the sheriff's
office for the first time as an intern.
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So I guess talk a little bit about- the,
that education piece that you come into
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and maybe one where it really, the stuff
that really taught you to be prepared
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to walk in for the first time, and also
some deficiencies that didn't prepare
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you for walking in for the first time.
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Yeah, the crime analysis and intelligence
analysis domain is very unique.
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I would say that your, the degree
programs in general did two things.
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Number one obviously, I forgot what
that Sylvester Stallone movie was.
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It's a, there's a clip going around.
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It's you can do it.
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It has a certain number of tasks
pretty well, showing people
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you're committed to something.
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It's like that type of thing.
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But the other thing it does is it at least
gives you a familiarity with the entire
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structure, the entire system- … from
the DA's office, the courts, all the
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way down to what law enforcement does
and also what probation and parole does.
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It's what does a law
enforcement officer do?
227
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What does supervised release look
like, which is probation and parole?
228
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That's the generality of what an a
basic major program will give you.
229
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It also got me familiar with the
penal codes, which is really good
230
00:11:09,798 --> 00:11:11,008
if you're gonna go into this domain.
231
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And it's really good for networking,
because you had like-minded people
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sitting to your left and to your
right that you could network with.
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00:11:16,738 --> 00:11:19,488
And so that would've been kinda,
jumping forward, that would've
234
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been one of my recommendations to
new people is right, is network.
235
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But- … but the networking would
really start at the university
236
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level as people are graduating
and they're exchanging numbers and
237
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getting into their respective fields.
238
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You'll have people that you can call for
various things as you start your career.
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00:11:33,868 --> 00:11:36,318
I would say that those were
the areas where it benefited.
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00:11:36,628 --> 00:11:40,578
Where it didn't, the, a criminal justice
degree didn't give me any exposure at all
241
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to crime analysis or intelligence analysis
you would have to probably do some sort
242
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of military intelligence program, or
you'd have to do this certificate program.
243
00:11:49,298 --> 00:11:52,518
I think there's several univers- a
couple universities that I know, at
244
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least in Southern California, that
actually have degree programs in it now.
245
00:11:55,438 --> 00:11:57,118
But that was not a thing, 30 years ago.
246
00:11:57,508 --> 00:11:58,338
It really wasn't.
247
00:11:58,608 --> 00:12:01,868
This was the only program that was
available, was this certificate program.
248
00:12:01,868 --> 00:12:03,798
So that would've been the downsides.
249
00:12:04,038 --> 00:12:07,488
That was also ironically, the reason
why the Department of Justice for
250
00:12:07,488 --> 00:12:10,968
California said that you needed a
400-hour internship because they knew
251
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that this was not really being taught
in degree programs, and you weren't
252
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gonna have the hands-on experience.
253
00:12:15,878 --> 00:12:19,368
So y- you went actually through an
internship and learned what this
254
00:12:19,368 --> 00:12:20,628
was to see if you even liked it.
255
00:12:21,008 --> 00:12:24,188
So those are all benefits of of
the degree program versus the
256
00:12:24,188 --> 00:12:25,878
certificate program, et cetera.
257
00:12:26,388 --> 00:12:29,568
And then of course I had I had a
knack for teaching and I had planned
258
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on doing teaching later in my life,
and that's that was another reason I
259
00:12:32,748 --> 00:12:34,438
went for my master's program as well.
260
00:12:34,888 --> 00:12:39,428
But is a bachelor's degree or a master's
degree necessarily necessary for
261
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this for this particular profession?
262
00:12:41,278 --> 00:12:44,468
That's gonna be contingent on your
agency you're applying for, but if I can
263
00:12:44,468 --> 00:12:48,298
speak at least for California for the
most part they're looking anywhere from
264
00:12:48,378 --> 00:12:51,868
associate's degree to bachelor's degree,
depending on the agency, and then it's
265
00:12:51,868 --> 00:12:55,138
hit or miss whether they're wanting the
certificate program or not n- or whether
266
00:12:55,138 --> 00:12:57,068
that's gonna be continued education later.
267
00:12:57,418 --> 00:13:00,508
So just for people who are like,
"Oh, this guy has a master's program
268
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and I'm never gonna get there," h-
you don't have to do what I did.
269
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I didn't know what I was doing at
the time and I just pursued education
270
00:13:06,568 --> 00:13:08,518
while I tr- tried to figure it out, so.
271
00:13:08,998 --> 00:13:13,658
, I'm curious with the certificate program
there at Cal State Fullerton, the
272
00:13:13,658 --> 00:13:19,928
cohort that you were in, were most of
those folks from California and maybe
273
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end up getting jobs in California?
274
00:13:22,758 --> 00:13:27,608
Because that brings extra value to the
networking aspect that you mentioned
275
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if now you have all these folks
locally, learning the same penal code,
276
00:13:32,368 --> 00:13:36,428
as you mentioned- … and being able
to have good contacts from day one.
277
00:13:36,708 --> 00:13:39,918
Yeah, at, so at the time when I
was going through this certificate
278
00:13:39,918 --> 00:13:43,048
program specifically you had
to go in person at the time.
279
00:13:43,058 --> 00:13:45,228
And it, and there was three
different universities that
280
00:13:45,228 --> 00:13:47,298
it was basically run out of.
281
00:13:47,328 --> 00:13:50,088
You had Cal State Northridge up
north so that Northern California
282
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people could have a place to go.
283
00:13:51,708 --> 00:13:55,208
You had Cal State Fullerton, which
is central Southern California.
284
00:13:55,418 --> 00:13:58,638
And then you had University California
Riverside, which is definitely Southern
285
00:13:58,638 --> 00:14:02,148
California, and then the Inland Empire,
which is further inland from from
286
00:14:02,158 --> 00:14:04,058
Orange County or the coastal cities.
287
00:14:04,388 --> 00:14:07,378
But they tried to put this
periodically throughout the entire
288
00:14:07,378 --> 00:14:10,428
state so people could actually
attend in person if they could.
289
00:14:10,808 --> 00:14:15,238
So at the time, yes, almost 100%
of the people were local, not
290
00:14:15,238 --> 00:14:18,038
only local to California, but
local to that regional area.
291
00:14:18,278 --> 00:14:18,308
Okay.
292
00:14:18,428 --> 00:14:21,668
So it was really good to for
networking purposes then.
293
00:14:22,058 --> 00:14:25,108
Today after COVID,
everything's webinar now.
294
00:14:25,518 --> 00:14:25,668
Yeah.
295
00:14:25,838 --> 00:14:30,498
So, so the good news with that is you
have now expanded the networking pool
296
00:14:30,648 --> 00:14:34,978
not only to California, but anyone in the
United States or anywhere, so to speak,
297
00:14:34,978 --> 00:14:38,468
who wants to take this program- because
they don't have to go in person anymore.
298
00:14:38,748 --> 00:14:42,738
The downside, though, is y- it's not
local people necessarily anymore,
299
00:14:42,738 --> 00:14:43,958
although the good majority are.
300
00:14:44,118 --> 00:14:46,088
But but it doesn't necessarily have to be.
301
00:14:46,118 --> 00:14:50,788
But the webinar concept opened up the,
the whole entire realm of networking to
302
00:14:50,788 --> 00:14:52,738
not just California, but beyond as well.
303
00:14:52,858 --> 00:14:53,178
Yeah.
304
00:14:53,528 --> 00:14:57,188
It reminds me, I, that's
one of the things I find.
305
00:14:57,368 --> 00:15:02,610
Here in Florida, there's a fleet program
Where they have a whole cohort of
306
00:15:02,610 --> 00:15:09,000
analysts that go through i- weeks of
training with a capstone project . So
307
00:15:09,000 --> 00:15:10,840
you go through the trenches all together.
308
00:15:10,850 --> 00:15:14,510
But then- Yeah … you now have
people that you can network
309
00:15:14,520 --> 00:15:16,140
with all across Florida.
310
00:15:16,310 --> 00:15:20,060
As soon as you start or as you begin,
'cause it's mostly for folks that are
311
00:15:20,060 --> 00:15:21,750
just starting out in the profession.
312
00:15:21,750 --> 00:15:27,280
But it's a… there's a power
there of having local contacts as
313
00:15:27,280 --> 00:15:29,230
you start this analyst profession.
314
00:15:29,360 --> 00:15:29,580
Yeah.
315
00:15:29,920 --> 00:15:33,380
Yeah, and the networking concept doesn't
stop once you, get into the profe- I
316
00:15:33,380 --> 00:15:38,600
would say it expands, because y- you have
students that you network with who may or
317
00:15:38,600 --> 00:15:40,150
may not find themself in this profession.
318
00:15:40,150 --> 00:15:43,340
But then when you get into this
profession, y- I need to know who's in
319
00:15:43,340 --> 00:15:46,560
San Bernardino, I need to know who's in
Rialto or Corona, for people in California
320
00:15:46,590 --> 00:15:47,460
who know what I'm talking about.
321
00:15:47,460 --> 00:15:52,320
But I have to know who's in my surrounding
area, so we're going to, meetings.
322
00:15:52,320 --> 00:15:55,110
We're going to crime analysis
meetings and association meetings
323
00:15:55,110 --> 00:15:56,240
and getting to know everybody.
324
00:15:56,290 --> 00:15:57,500
The networking doesn't stop.
325
00:15:57,510 --> 00:16:00,800
It's the number one thing that I would
recommend for anyone is to network.
326
00:16:01,070 --> 00:16:01,090
Yeah.
327
00:16:01,100 --> 00:16:03,890
And for intr- introverts like
myself, that's really difficult,
328
00:16:03,910 --> 00:16:06,470
'cause I wanna just be left alone
in my cubicle most of the time.
329
00:16:06,470 --> 00:16:10,500
So it might require some work, but it's
gonna be beneficial in the long run.
330
00:16:10,950 --> 00:16:11,220
Yeah.
331
00:16:11,350 --> 00:16:16,160
, So let's go up to your internship
then as you mentioned Brian Gray.
332
00:16:16,220 --> 00:16:19,810
I'd had the same reaction
to- … with Brian as well.
333
00:16:19,820 --> 00:16:26,064
I, he is so insightful and thoughtful- I
think for him, if you are passionate and
334
00:16:26,064 --> 00:16:29,164
inquisitive he really appreciates that.
335
00:16:29,254 --> 00:16:34,644
For the listeners, to show interest or
do an extra step can get people to, to
336
00:16:34,644 --> 00:16:37,644
help you along and to be your advisor.
337
00:16:37,644 --> 00:16:41,714
So that's just sometimes it's just a
matter of just walking up to somebody and
338
00:16:41,714 --> 00:16:47,204
start having a conversation about doing
extra or trying to find more information
339
00:16:47,214 --> 00:16:48,934
to something that's itching at you.
340
00:16:49,064 --> 00:16:49,444
Yeah.
341
00:16:49,444 --> 00:16:51,984
Yeah I'll speak Brian's
praises for a second.
342
00:16:51,984 --> 00:16:53,104
He and I are still friends.
343
00:16:53,194 --> 00:16:56,984
He's retired now, but- … when I first
started, what drew me to Brian initially
344
00:16:57,014 --> 00:16:59,224
I met him in the certificate program.
345
00:16:59,234 --> 00:17:00,034
He was an instructor.
346
00:17:00,044 --> 00:17:00,594
Still is.
347
00:17:00,944 --> 00:17:03,854
And he's been doing that,
geez, like 30 years now easily.
348
00:17:04,984 --> 00:17:05,064
Yeah.
349
00:17:05,064 --> 00:17:06,134
He's been teaching forever.
350
00:17:06,464 --> 00:17:09,254
And I would say one of his
strengths is training, like the
351
00:17:09,254 --> 00:17:10,864
providing training to people is…
352
00:17:10,904 --> 00:17:12,704
He has a knack for it like no one else.
353
00:17:12,704 --> 00:17:16,644
But his leadership is off the… when
people hear the term Brian Gray they
354
00:17:16,654 --> 00:17:19,317
sometimes will have a mixed bag on
what they think about the man and
355
00:17:19,317 --> 00:17:20,547
he will not mind me saying this.
356
00:17:20,787 --> 00:17:22,517
I liked him 'cause he was direct.
357
00:17:23,217 --> 00:17:26,477
But most people take direct as
arrogant, so it just depends on
358
00:17:26,487 --> 00:17:28,167
how you view somebody obviously.
359
00:17:28,387 --> 00:17:28,417
Sure.
360
00:17:28,437 --> 00:17:31,307
But the one thing that I really
liked about Brian is that the things
361
00:17:31,317 --> 00:17:35,207
that he wanted to accomplish, if it
was not being done in the domain,
362
00:17:35,427 --> 00:17:36,797
he looked outside of the domain.
363
00:17:36,997 --> 00:17:41,397
So al- almost everything we still
do for automating product did
364
00:17:41,397 --> 00:17:42,967
not come from within the domain.
365
00:17:43,177 --> 00:17:46,997
Us using Crystal Reports, for example,
to automate products and connect them to
366
00:17:47,007 --> 00:17:48,927
data he didn't learn that in the domain.
367
00:17:48,957 --> 00:17:50,867
He went in the business
world to learn that.
368
00:17:50,867 --> 00:17:53,017
And what's the- … what's, what
are the business people doing?
369
00:17:53,267 --> 00:17:56,987
Because we weren't doing it, so he had
to go outside of that or he'd watch
370
00:17:56,987 --> 00:17:58,767
TED Talks and go, "That's a great idea.
371
00:17:58,767 --> 00:17:59,777
How do we implement that?
372
00:17:59,917 --> 00:18:01,157
What's LAPD doing?
373
00:18:01,187 --> 00:18:03,597
Oh, they're doing PredPol
and all of this other stuff.
374
00:18:03,727 --> 00:18:06,597
How can we do that?" That led
to our top 10 offender list.
375
00:18:06,797 --> 00:18:10,167
He was just so innovative with the
outside-the-box thinking, which
376
00:18:10,167 --> 00:18:11,987
is not normal within this domain.
377
00:18:12,407 --> 00:18:16,957
And he got a lot of resistance not only
internally, but externally from it, but
378
00:18:17,077 --> 00:18:21,387
he had the persistence to overcome that,
which is why I would've argued that when
379
00:18:21,387 --> 00:18:24,777
I started joining the Riverside County
Sheriff's Department, the whole department
380
00:18:24,777 --> 00:18:29,875
and the crime analysis unit as a whole-
- arguably was top three in the state
381
00:18:30,585 --> 00:18:34,385
becau- with bec- just because of the sheer
innovation that was going on at the time.
382
00:18:34,795 --> 00:18:36,675
He was training other analysts.
383
00:18:36,895 --> 00:18:39,625
He would invite them to his his
meetings and train them too.
384
00:18:39,945 --> 00:18:42,695
And so I have a great deal of
respect for him because he never
385
00:18:42,695 --> 00:18:45,135
allowed himself to be complacent and
he was always learning something.
386
00:18:45,355 --> 00:18:49,795
I struggle with that, but it's necessary
and he really inspired me in that regard.
387
00:18:49,795 --> 00:18:52,115
So I can't say enough
good things about Brian.
388
00:18:52,115 --> 00:18:55,575
He's a good… He's a dear friend of mine,
and he's molded me into the analyst and
389
00:18:55,575 --> 00:18:57,995
the person, arguably, that I am today, so.
390
00:18:58,555 --> 00:19:00,965
And for the listeners, I'll put
a link in the show notes 'cause
391
00:19:00,965 --> 00:19:02,215
I've had Brian on the show.
392
00:19:02,255 --> 00:19:02,345
Yeah.
393
00:19:02,345 --> 00:19:06,745
So, you can check out Brian's story
and perspective I think that's a good
394
00:19:06,745 --> 00:19:13,225
point about looking at other disciplines
because I do feel that sometimes there
395
00:19:13,225 --> 00:19:16,805
is resistance- … within a police
department to even go outside the police
396
00:19:16,805 --> 00:19:20,615
department, to be worrying about what
New York City is doing or to be worrying
397
00:19:20,625 --> 00:19:22,305
about what Philadelphia is doing.
398
00:19:22,355 --> 00:19:25,475
There's a little bit of resistance
there, but and then you add on
399
00:19:25,485 --> 00:19:29,575
top of that just going to a total
different discipline at all, right?
400
00:19:29,575 --> 00:19:31,795
What, what's the business world doing?
401
00:19:31,795 --> 00:19:34,105
Or what is the education world doing?
402
00:19:34,165 --> 00:19:38,125
Just finding the best solution
should be the goal, right?
403
00:19:38,175 --> 00:19:38,945
Yeah, no doubt.
404
00:19:38,995 --> 00:19:42,305
And he w- he was great at doing
it and then would customize the
405
00:19:42,305 --> 00:19:43,995
training for us, so we benefited.
406
00:19:44,135 --> 00:19:47,125
, For the listeners, i- if you don't
have a Brian Gray, then you'll have
407
00:19:47,185 --> 00:19:49,945
to take the initiative to do that
yourself, and that's sometimes that
408
00:19:49,945 --> 00:19:52,845
self-motivation, some people have
it, some people it's a struggle.
409
00:19:52,855 --> 00:19:53,925
For me, it's a struggle.
410
00:19:53,935 --> 00:19:55,765
For Brian he thrived on that.
411
00:19:56,135 --> 00:19:59,865
So, so I linked myself with somebody
who was thriving on that and said, "I
412
00:19:59,865 --> 00:20:03,235
wanna be with him because he's gonna
make me a better analyst and a better
413
00:20:03,235 --> 00:20:04,955
person," 'cause I struggle with that.
414
00:20:04,955 --> 00:20:08,305
So but if you don't have a Brian it's, it
can be a little bit more difficult 'cause
415
00:20:08,305 --> 00:20:09,955
you gotta be self-motivated with it.
416
00:20:10,115 --> 00:20:10,465
Yeah.
417
00:20:10,655 --> 00:20:15,235
So once you get in there as the
internship under Brian's tutelage what
418
00:20:15,235 --> 00:20:17,155
type of things does he have you doing?
419
00:20:17,305 --> 00:20:20,565
Well, I was immediately in the
certificate program drawn to the
420
00:20:20,575 --> 00:20:22,685
criminal intelligence component of it.
421
00:20:23,105 --> 00:20:24,625
So I mentioned that to him.
422
00:20:24,625 --> 00:20:27,515
I was like, "I would love to be
in an intel capacity." We had
423
00:20:27,525 --> 00:20:29,175
a, an intel unit at the time.
424
00:20:29,205 --> 00:20:32,745
He supported it himself because he didn't
have an analyst to actually support it.
425
00:20:33,145 --> 00:20:35,105
And he's "You know what? That
would be actually a really good
426
00:20:35,105 --> 00:20:37,145
thing because we have this unit."
427
00:20:37,215 --> 00:20:42,575
It's at the time it was, like, three maybe
three investigators for the entire county.
428
00:20:42,715 --> 00:20:45,585
It was really small and
obviously a sergeant over it.
429
00:20:45,905 --> 00:20:48,965
And he did what he could given
that he was at the time he was a
430
00:20:48,965 --> 00:20:51,935
supervisor, but he s- so he did what
he could because his primary role was
431
00:20:51,935 --> 00:20:56,205
supervision and training and, workplace
evaluations and the list goes on.
432
00:20:56,495 --> 00:20:59,575
So he did it on the side when he could
to support them, but he's "It would be
433
00:20:59,575 --> 00:21:02,995
really cool if we actually could put
somebody full-time into this, and if
434
00:21:03,005 --> 00:21:07,225
you have a passion for it, then let's
train on that a little bit." So he got me
435
00:21:07,225 --> 00:21:11,795
familiar with, intelligence guidelines,
link analysis, how to put stuff in
436
00:21:11,795 --> 00:21:15,495
a database and retrieve it and, what
questions to ask, how to research stuff.
437
00:21:15,685 --> 00:21:18,795
, That was a good portion of
my internship at the time was
438
00:21:18,795 --> 00:21:22,125
focusing on the intelligence
component within the discipline.
439
00:21:22,997 --> 00:21:27,697
So as you were doing that, learning
intelligence side of things, was there
440
00:21:27,697 --> 00:21:32,747
a particular issue there at Riverside
that you were trying to help solve?
441
00:21:32,887 --> 00:21:35,237
At the time, I didn't n- really know that.
442
00:21:35,247 --> 00:21:38,897
Brian, again, Brian was the predecessor
to this, and he had maybe one or two
443
00:21:38,897 --> 00:21:41,847
investigators that were coming to him
and go, "I have these ideas," and they
444
00:21:41,847 --> 00:21:43,337
were really passionate about it, too.
445
00:21:43,437 --> 00:21:46,287
But the, but, and one of them I,
he's retired now, but he was a re- I
446
00:21:46,297 --> 00:21:47,487
think he was a retired investigator.
447
00:21:47,487 --> 00:21:48,927
His name, he his name's Dave Madden.
448
00:21:49,227 --> 00:21:52,977
But Dave was one of those guys that
was on the fine line between are
449
00:21:52,977 --> 00:21:54,757
you brilliant or are you insane?
450
00:21:56,067 --> 00:21:57,757
He was one of those types of guys.
451
00:21:58,097 --> 00:22:01,727
And he would come to Brian and he's
"Brian I just uncovered this and I have
452
00:22:01,727 --> 00:22:04,387
some stuff that's going on and I need
some help with this investigation."
453
00:22:04,847 --> 00:22:07,497
I would say 9 times out of
10 what came out of his mouth
454
00:22:07,497 --> 00:22:09,427
sounded like a conspiracy theory.
455
00:22:09,587 --> 00:22:12,809
And then when you started diving into
it, you're like There's some validity
456
00:22:12,809 --> 00:22:14,269
with what this guy's saying , yeah.
457
00:22:14,279 --> 00:22:15,679
Just people just didn't wanna listen.
458
00:22:16,239 --> 00:22:16,259
Yeah.
459
00:22:16,309 --> 00:22:18,689
Because it's basically pulling
the rug back on something
460
00:22:18,689 --> 00:22:19,779
people don't wanna look at.
461
00:22:20,099 --> 00:22:22,699
So, there wasn't any one specific thing.
462
00:22:22,699 --> 00:22:25,189
It was really at that point
what investigators were bringing
463
00:22:25,189 --> 00:22:26,699
to Brian, how he can support.
464
00:22:27,169 --> 00:22:29,839
But once I got in there, I
started asking questions like
465
00:22:29,869 --> 00:22:31,209
what do we actually want to do?
466
00:22:31,209 --> 00:22:35,309
Where can we go to get the biggest bang
for our buck throughout the county?"
467
00:22:35,589 --> 00:22:39,579
Of course, our county is 8,000 square
miles and goes from Orange County all
468
00:22:39,579 --> 00:22:41,479
the way out to, the Arizona border.
469
00:22:42,089 --> 00:22:46,899
So across the entire thing we were, we
decided for ourselves, well, local gang
470
00:22:46,909 --> 00:22:50,849
stuff could be part of that, but there's
so many gangs across 8,000 square miles
471
00:22:50,879 --> 00:22:54,909
and, at that time, 10 stations, that I
don't think we wanna just focus on gangs.
472
00:22:54,909 --> 00:22:58,249
We need to look at l- like the
bigger 50,000-foot-view issues.
473
00:22:58,519 --> 00:23:01,799
So we started looking at, Native
American re- reservation issues.
474
00:23:01,799 --> 00:23:06,219
We started looking at prison-organized
crime w- with Mexican mafia and other g-
475
00:23:06,229 --> 00:23:08,559
other organized gangs within that area.
476
00:23:08,559 --> 00:23:09,789
Brotherhood was part of that.
477
00:23:10,019 --> 00:23:15,269
My specialty s- became white supremacist
organizations inside and outside the
478
00:23:15,269 --> 00:23:19,279
prison and also outlaw motorcycle gangs,
'cause outlaw motorcycle gangs, Hells
479
00:23:19,279 --> 00:23:20,839
Angels were the big one at the time.
480
00:23:20,839 --> 00:23:23,059
Although we also had
others, like Vagos, Mongols.
481
00:23:23,099 --> 00:23:25,799
We had a lot of other outla-
motorcycle gangs we were looking at.
482
00:23:26,019 --> 00:23:28,619
But they were involved in
conspiratorial activity with, prison
483
00:23:28,619 --> 00:23:30,459
groups with heck, with the cartel.
484
00:23:30,549 --> 00:23:31,749
We didn't even get that far.
485
00:23:31,919 --> 00:23:34,149
But they were doing drug
running, drug smuggling.
486
00:23:34,179 --> 00:23:35,309
They were doing all kinds of stuff.
487
00:23:35,889 --> 00:23:39,629
And so we're like, well, if we focused
on these areas that are crossing multiple
488
00:23:39,649 --> 00:23:43,199
jurisdictions, we'll probably get the
biggest bang for our buck with only
489
00:23:43,389 --> 00:23:45,129
three investigators and a sergeant
490
00:23:45,139 --> 00:23:45,159
Yeah.
491
00:23:45,579 --> 00:23:49,059
And at least until the department
sees our value and we start growing.
492
00:23:49,449 --> 00:23:51,779
Which we did u- under
my sergeant at the time.
493
00:23:51,779 --> 00:23:54,289
He retired as a lieutenant,
and I'll throw his name out
494
00:23:54,289 --> 00:23:55,769
'cause I respected him greatly.
495
00:23:55,769 --> 00:23:56,989
His name was Kent Wurgest.
496
00:23:57,189 --> 00:24:01,759
Kent Wurgest got into a got into
our, the supervise- supervisory
497
00:24:01,759 --> 00:24:04,189
position as a sergeant with
our criminal intelligence unit.
498
00:24:04,469 --> 00:24:08,079
Him and Brian talked all the time,
and they used each other's tools and
499
00:24:08,079 --> 00:24:12,759
techniques and ideas, and marketing was
a huge thing, so he actually was able to
500
00:24:12,759 --> 00:24:16,639
market ourselves to not only our captain,
but to the sheriff's administration.
501
00:24:16,769 --> 00:24:17,589
Here's what we're doing.
502
00:24:17,589 --> 00:24:18,459
Here's what we're involved with.
503
00:24:18,489 --> 00:24:20,599
It was weekly meetings,
standing meeting weekly.
504
00:24:20,769 --> 00:24:21,469
Here's what we're doing.
505
00:24:21,469 --> 00:24:22,349
Here's what we're involved with.
506
00:24:22,349 --> 00:24:23,239
Here's where we're going.
507
00:24:23,769 --> 00:24:28,299
And we ended up in, at least the
seven years I supported intelligence,
508
00:24:28,299 --> 00:24:30,559
we went from three investigators.
509
00:24:30,559 --> 00:24:34,109
There was one on the east, east end
of our county and two on the west end,
510
00:24:34,119 --> 00:24:35,579
or three on the west end or something.
511
00:24:35,889 --> 00:24:38,609
But we ended up up to
close to 12 investigators.
512
00:24:38,609 --> 00:24:40,429
They were looking at two
sergeants at the time.
513
00:24:40,429 --> 00:24:43,779
We had incorporated the human
trafficking task force within our agency.
514
00:24:43,949 --> 00:24:47,419
That was all in seven years , so
the, just the sheer amount of
515
00:24:47,419 --> 00:24:51,589
growth just from marketing alone
allowed us to expand because they
516
00:24:51,589 --> 00:24:52,939
bought off on what we were doing.
517
00:24:53,641 --> 00:24:56,681
And so that's, I would say that's one
of, one of our pivotal successes, and
518
00:24:56,681 --> 00:24:58,381
I was I was honored to be part of that.
519
00:24:58,621 --> 00:25:01,581
But that was really under the leadership
of Sergeant Wergus at the time.
520
00:25:02,041 --> 00:25:05,481
So, so, so again, it, there
was a lot of different things
521
00:25:05,481 --> 00:25:06,381
that we were involved with.
522
00:25:06,381 --> 00:25:09,091
We were also involved in First
Amendment rights organizations.
523
00:25:09,091 --> 00:25:10,991
So we got involved with
the Sovereign Citizens.
524
00:25:11,261 --> 00:25:12,421
Oath Keepers were part of that.
525
00:25:12,421 --> 00:25:16,171
You're hearing that re- revisited with
Trump right now, some of these names.
526
00:25:16,361 --> 00:25:18,831
We got involved with that
for, with our local area.
527
00:25:19,021 --> 00:25:22,131
And anything else that popped off
that could have been conspiratorial,
528
00:25:22,141 --> 00:25:23,631
we at least put our finger in it.
529
00:25:24,021 --> 00:25:27,231
And the way we did it is every
investigator had a specialty.
530
00:25:27,231 --> 00:25:30,081
So we had an investigator that was
focusing on outlaw motorcycle gangs.
531
00:25:30,081 --> 00:25:32,911
We had a, an investigator that was
working on just white supremacy.
532
00:25:32,911 --> 00:25:35,441
We had a, an investigator that
was connecting with our jails
533
00:25:35,491 --> 00:25:38,091
in the prisons and talking to
them about what was going on.
534
00:25:38,371 --> 00:25:41,651
And it generated so many leads when
they started going to briefings at
535
00:25:41,661 --> 00:25:44,511
stations, telling people what we
were doing at the station level.
536
00:25:44,721 --> 00:25:48,751
We got so much influx of in- information
coming in, it wasn't even funny.
537
00:25:48,771 --> 00:25:50,811
Whereas before that, nobody
was sharing anything 'cause
538
00:25:50,811 --> 00:25:51,611
they didn't know what we did.
539
00:25:51,791 --> 00:25:53,491
They called us the black hole before that.
540
00:25:53,491 --> 00:25:53,701
Yeah.
541
00:25:53,701 --> 00:25:55,951
The black hole where everything
goes in, nothing comes back out.
542
00:25:55,951 --> 00:25:59,761
So my job as an analyst was I want,
I wanna put stuff out so you know
543
00:25:59,761 --> 00:26:02,241
what we're doing, or you at least
know what we're interested in.
544
00:26:02,661 --> 00:26:05,771
And so I created reports where I
was putting out white supremacy
545
00:26:05,771 --> 00:26:06,961
with warrants out for their arrest.
546
00:26:06,971 --> 00:26:08,251
Brian helped me do this.
547
00:26:08,481 --> 00:26:10,911
Or outlaw motorcycle gangs
who were FI'd last month.
548
00:26:11,091 --> 00:26:15,131
Th- this is all the innovative stuff that
we started doing to generate a discussion
549
00:26:15,131 --> 00:26:17,301
so we can dive deeper into these groups.
550
00:26:17,401 --> 00:26:21,241
And then obviously, y- I can't
say enough about the 15% covert.
551
00:26:21,281 --> 00:26:23,861
And so, all of our investigators
at the time were i- in an
552
00:26:23,861 --> 00:26:25,141
undercover capacity too.
553
00:26:25,141 --> 00:26:27,891
So they would do undercover operations
and actually go talk to these
554
00:26:27,891 --> 00:26:31,081
people, or if they got arrested,
we'd go interview them at the jail.
555
00:26:31,321 --> 00:26:34,251
I would say arguably 80% of
our intel came from that-
556
00:26:34,661 --> 00:26:35,871
Yeah … because they couldn't run.
557
00:26:36,791 --> 00:26:36,951
That's true, yeah.
558
00:26:36,951 --> 00:26:37,741
They were in jail.
559
00:26:38,231 --> 00:26:40,951
They had to talk to us or
say no comment or whatever.
560
00:26:40,951 --> 00:26:42,761
But we had the opportunity
to talk to people.
561
00:26:43,281 --> 00:26:46,591
And so, all of that generated
a lot of good intel for us over
562
00:26:46,591 --> 00:26:47,711
the seven years I was there.
563
00:26:47,711 --> 00:26:51,011
So, arguably it was the, one of
the best times of my career was
564
00:26:51,021 --> 00:26:52,181
working criminal intelligence.
565
00:26:52,611 --> 00:26:52,891
Yeah.
566
00:26:52,991 --> 00:26:53,311
So.
567
00:26:53,681 --> 00:26:59,321
I'm imagining that though that with
this development and you're, as
568
00:26:59,321 --> 00:27:05,341
you just said, you're dealing with
different investigators gathering
569
00:27:05,351 --> 00:27:10,201
information, gathering intel, and
it's coming to you, and I imagine
570
00:27:10,201 --> 00:27:12,871
it's coming to you in various forms.
571
00:27:13,151 --> 00:27:18,731
Talk a little bit about that aspect of
turning all this different information
572
00:27:18,731 --> 00:27:21,021
that's coming to you, 'cause it's
not like it's a records management-
573
00:27:21,021 --> 00:27:24,781
Yeah … that's coming into a nice
table with a nice narrative- … and
574
00:27:24,781 --> 00:27:26,071
that's what you're dealing with.
575
00:27:26,101 --> 00:27:31,081
You're you're getting all kinds of
information coming in, and you are , as
576
00:27:31,081 --> 00:27:35,871
the analyst, analyzing all these different
sources, all these different formats,
577
00:27:36,041 --> 00:27:40,161
to then put it into one unified product.
578
00:27:40,301 --> 00:27:44,061
Yeah, so in, in- information came
in from a lot of different places.
579
00:27:44,081 --> 00:27:49,241
We had, at the time I was part of this, we
had built our own intelligence database.
580
00:27:49,271 --> 00:27:54,207
It was very rudimentary database Later on,
we worked with our mapping vendor and they
581
00:27:54,207 --> 00:27:59,327
actually customized a 28 C.F.R. 2320…
That's the intelligence guidelines.
582
00:27:59,507 --> 00:28:03,787
They they built us based off of what we
wanted, they built us a, an intelligence
583
00:28:03,787 --> 00:28:05,247
database that was compliant with that.
584
00:28:05,257 --> 00:28:08,457
And so everything went in it
automated the five-year to one year
585
00:28:08,747 --> 00:28:10,167
for temporary and permanent files.
586
00:28:10,167 --> 00:28:10,877
It did all of that.
587
00:28:11,307 --> 00:28:14,167
But before that, I was manually
entering into a database just so I
588
00:28:14,177 --> 00:28:15,377
had something to do something with.
589
00:28:15,387 --> 00:28:15,407
Yeah.
590
00:28:16,447 --> 00:28:20,027
So, but the information came
in from all over the place.
591
00:28:20,037 --> 00:28:23,267
Deputies would would do a
vehicle stop, pull over somebody.
592
00:28:23,357 --> 00:28:26,187
They had tattoos on, on, on
their, on, on their body.
593
00:28:26,247 --> 00:28:29,647
They were… The guy ended up arrested,
so they not only took pictures in
594
00:28:29,647 --> 00:28:32,457
the field, but then when he went into
the booking when he went in to get
595
00:28:32,457 --> 00:28:35,867
booked, they, they did a whole thorough
classification interview with the guy.
596
00:28:35,867 --> 00:28:36,397
Who are you?
597
00:28:36,397 --> 00:28:37,997
Where who do you affiliate with?
598
00:28:38,317 --> 00:28:40,667
At the time, I think they
were taking four photos.
599
00:28:40,877 --> 00:28:43,787
Front, side torso, and
back, and that was it.
600
00:28:43,797 --> 00:28:45,487
That was all they were taking for photos.
601
00:28:45,677 --> 00:28:48,497
We turned around and said, "We need as
a criminal intelligence unit, we need
602
00:28:48,497 --> 00:28:52,567
you to vid- to photo everything that you
think is even remotely related to a gang.
603
00:28:53,047 --> 00:28:57,157
And not only do one picture, but
do four." And so our booking photos
604
00:28:57,197 --> 00:29:01,847
went from five or six photos to maybe
15, and then we would pull those
605
00:29:01,857 --> 00:29:03,407
photos and "This is justification.
606
00:29:03,407 --> 00:29:04,587
Do you see these these tattoos?
607
00:29:04,587 --> 00:29:07,737
That's representative of this
group." And so the… intelligence
608
00:29:07,737 --> 00:29:08,877
came in from all over the place.
609
00:29:08,877 --> 00:29:10,127
We'd listen to jail phone calls.
610
00:29:10,127 --> 00:29:11,987
There was one guy who who
was doing the jail stuff.
611
00:29:12,147 --> 00:29:14,767
He would be listening to jail phone
calls for certain people that he knew
612
00:29:14,767 --> 00:29:16,367
was in custody we were interested in.
613
00:29:16,667 --> 00:29:19,547
O- officers on patrol, investigators,
if they come across stuff, they
614
00:29:19,547 --> 00:29:23,357
would just shoot us an email and we'd
look into it or for our particular
615
00:29:23,737 --> 00:29:25,707
unit we would create programs.
616
00:29:25,707 --> 00:29:28,937
We didn't wanna call them investigations
'cause we didn't wanna confuse with
617
00:29:28,937 --> 00:29:30,847
records management or a criminal case.
618
00:29:30,897 --> 00:29:32,247
So we would call them programs.
619
00:29:32,247 --> 00:29:33,317
We would write up a program.
620
00:29:33,457 --> 00:29:34,957
We got this information from this.
621
00:29:34,967 --> 00:29:35,977
It's involving this group.
622
00:29:35,977 --> 00:29:37,757
This group has historically
been involved with this.
623
00:29:37,767 --> 00:29:40,097
We're gonna give us X amount
of time in order to research.
624
00:29:40,127 --> 00:29:44,127
We would write a whole entire program
with this, and then it gave us the 30,
625
00:29:44,127 --> 00:29:47,897
60 days, one year, whatever it is under
28 C.F.R. to actually do something
626
00:29:47,897 --> 00:29:49,367
with the information or get rid of it.
627
00:29:49,707 --> 00:29:53,967
And so all of it was generated by somebody
thinking they had something that was
628
00:29:53,967 --> 00:29:59,161
of value and sharing it, which goes
back to networking, so we, again- When
629
00:29:59,161 --> 00:30:03,181
you're dealing with may- even 10 to 12
investigators for the entire county,
630
00:30:03,401 --> 00:30:05,151
you can't be everywhere all at once.
631
00:30:05,151 --> 00:30:06,511
You have to network with people.
632
00:30:06,851 --> 00:30:10,931
And so what's the my thinking at the
time was what's the best way to do that?
633
00:30:11,061 --> 00:30:12,461
Network with boots on the ground.
634
00:30:12,701 --> 00:30:15,951
The people who are, who would know
their area intimately day in and
635
00:30:15,951 --> 00:30:17,671
day out, who patrol it every day.
636
00:30:18,001 --> 00:30:20,171
Become friends with the patrol officers.
637
00:30:20,211 --> 00:30:21,991
That was my whole entire thinking on this.
638
00:30:22,401 --> 00:30:25,451
The and they're gonna say, "You
actually care what I do?" And then
639
00:30:25,451 --> 00:30:26,951
they get motivated to do it better.
640
00:30:26,951 --> 00:30:27,521
We found that.
641
00:30:27,521 --> 00:30:28,411
We found that was the case.
642
00:30:28,421 --> 00:30:31,551
So, they would just pull out FIs
and just scribble information down,
643
00:30:31,551 --> 00:30:32,731
and then scan it and send it to us.
644
00:30:32,731 --> 00:30:35,141
We have this information that
might be of value to you.
645
00:30:35,731 --> 00:30:38,997
And so I would take all this
Some of it went into a database,
646
00:30:39,007 --> 00:30:40,377
some of it became a program.
647
00:30:40,597 --> 00:30:43,567
Some of it went got shredded because
it wasn't of value to us, that's
648
00:30:43,567 --> 00:30:44,787
where the intelligence cycle comes in.
649
00:30:44,837 --> 00:30:46,737
You gotta start with planning what
you're gonna do or you're gonna
650
00:30:46,737 --> 00:30:50,067
swim in data, and that's both crime
analysis and intelligence analysis.
651
00:30:50,067 --> 00:30:53,367
But the data came in from all over
the place, and it was my job to take
652
00:30:53,367 --> 00:30:56,437
that and pre- and in conjunction with
the investigators, 'cause they're
653
00:30:56,437 --> 00:30:58,057
part of the analytical process too.
654
00:30:58,087 --> 00:31:01,447
That's a misnomer that they're not
part of it and only it, the person with
655
00:31:01,447 --> 00:31:03,157
analyst after their name's analyzing.
656
00:31:03,287 --> 00:31:05,037
Not in a criminal intelligence in domain.
657
00:31:05,037 --> 00:31:05,917
We're all analyzing.
658
00:31:05,917 --> 00:31:06,657
That's our whole job.
659
00:31:06,897 --> 00:31:10,367
, So I would work with the investigators
on turning it into something actionable
660
00:31:10,367 --> 00:31:11,877
or something we could do something with.
661
00:31:11,927 --> 00:31:13,767
And it led to a lot of good stuff.
662
00:31:13,767 --> 00:31:14,917
We did sweeps.
663
00:31:14,987 --> 00:31:18,237
We did if we knew that the Vagos outlaw
motorcycle gang or the Hells Angels
664
00:31:18,237 --> 00:31:22,277
outlaw motorcycle gang was at war with
another gang, well, we'd just, we would
665
00:31:22,277 --> 00:31:25,587
just do a sweep and start na- nailing
everybody who had, fourth waivers.
666
00:31:25,597 --> 00:31:29,087
Fourth waivers is waiving your search
and seizures rights under probation
667
00:31:29,427 --> 00:31:30,457
for those who don't know that.
668
00:31:30,637 --> 00:31:33,107
It, we would … Anyone who had
a warrant out for their arrest,
669
00:31:33,117 --> 00:31:34,207
we're t- we're taking them in.
670
00:31:34,207 --> 00:31:36,207
I'd, we didn't care if it was
a misdemeanor or a felony.
671
00:31:36,207 --> 00:31:36,787
We didn't care.
672
00:31:37,137 --> 00:31:37,987
You got arrested.
673
00:31:38,177 --> 00:31:41,387
Because we were more concerned about
talking to you not what the crime was.
674
00:31:42,177 --> 00:31:46,897
So, we generated a lot of information
by by being able to articulate why
675
00:31:46,897 --> 00:31:50,877
we needed to do these operations, and
then gathering additional information
676
00:31:50,877 --> 00:31:52,647
once we executed the operation.
677
00:31:53,277 --> 00:31:54,947
So yeah, so we did a lot of stuff.
678
00:31:54,947 --> 00:31:57,757
It was a lot of, it was a lot of
cool stuff that we ended up doing.
679
00:31:58,087 --> 00:32:01,797
And I of course the ta- what should
anal- what should people learn if they're
680
00:32:01,797 --> 00:32:03,537
gonna go into an intelligence unit?
681
00:32:03,777 --> 00:32:05,847
Become very familiar with
link analysis software.
682
00:32:05,897 --> 00:32:08,887
Because y- you're gonna have one person
linked to another person linked to an
683
00:32:08,897 --> 00:32:12,347
organization linked to, you're gonna have
a lot of relationships, and that's the
684
00:32:12,347 --> 00:32:17,227
conspiratorial and organizational aspect
of intelligence versus crime analysis.
685
00:32:17,347 --> 00:32:20,997
You're going to have these connections and
these relationships that you're gonna have
686
00:32:20,997 --> 00:32:22,787
to justify and prove and show to people.
687
00:32:22,787 --> 00:32:26,357
So, become familiar with link
analysis in particular if you're
688
00:32:26,357 --> 00:32:27,697
gonna go into intelligence.
689
00:32:33,502 --> 00:32:38,202
Analysts, LEA Podcast is looking
for volunteer researchers to help
690
00:32:38,242 --> 00:32:41,463
build a knowledge base for the law
enforcement analysis profession.
691
00:32:42,382 --> 00:32:45,463
This is a flexible opportunity to
contribute to projects involving
692
00:32:45,582 --> 00:32:51,202
training, analytical tools, history, and
resources across the analyst profession.
693
00:32:51,282 --> 00:32:54,862
If you are curious about the profession
and want to help create meaningful content
694
00:32:54,922 --> 00:32:57,242
and resources, we'd love to hear from you.
695
00:32:57,622 --> 00:33:01,462
Please send a brief email along
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696
00:33:01,522 --> 00:33:02,112
bio to LEAPodcasts@gmail.com.
697
00:33:10,371 --> 00:33:15,621
, In terms of your position, we just went
over … Okay the information coming
698
00:33:15,631 --> 00:33:20,441
in from different folks- coworkers
there at the sheriff's department.
699
00:33:20,591 --> 00:33:27,731
Is, was there also databases, maybe data
sets that you were, had access to that
700
00:33:27,731 --> 00:33:32,559
then you were incorporating and actually
could push back out to these- Folks.
701
00:33:32,819 --> 00:33:36,409
And 'cause around this time too,
social media really takes off.
702
00:33:36,409 --> 00:33:37,629
We're talking about the aughts.
703
00:33:37,639 --> 00:33:42,469
So was, did that particular aspect also
come on your plate around the same time?
704
00:33:43,099 --> 00:33:43,389
Yeah.
705
00:33:43,389 --> 00:33:43,819
It did.
706
00:33:43,919 --> 00:33:47,889
The social media aspect in particular
was very new when I was first first
707
00:33:47,889 --> 00:33:51,159
in intelligence, and you're talking
about early 2000s at this time.
708
00:33:51,459 --> 00:33:51,629
Yeah.
709
00:33:51,719 --> 00:33:53,119
It wasn't really a big thing.
710
00:33:53,169 --> 00:33:54,489
Facebook was still huge.
711
00:33:54,669 --> 00:33:56,189
Now Facebook has kinda phased out.
712
00:33:56,189 --> 00:33:57,439
It's for, my generation.
713
00:33:58,299 --> 00:33:58,689
Yep.
714
00:33:59,329 --> 00:34:00,239
For the elderly, right?
715
00:34:00,529 --> 00:34:00,859
Yeah.
716
00:34:02,239 --> 00:34:04,629
A- and now it's more like
Instagrams and Snapchat.
717
00:34:04,659 --> 00:34:07,009
It's all it, they evolved
into those domains now.
718
00:34:07,349 --> 00:34:10,379
And now there's I don't know, on a side
note, there's probably a half a dozen
719
00:34:10,379 --> 00:34:13,229
different open source intelligence
platforms now that will help you
720
00:34:13,229 --> 00:34:14,599
with that because it got so big.
721
00:34:14,949 --> 00:34:16,969
Yeah … but at the time we
were running all that manually.
722
00:34:17,029 --> 00:34:18,289
We were creating our own accounts.
723
00:34:18,299 --> 00:34:19,619
We were trying to connect with people.
724
00:34:19,619 --> 00:34:21,589
We were tr- at least to
observe what they were doing.
725
00:34:22,039 --> 00:34:24,839
Sure … they didn't r- criminals at
the time didn't even know what they were
726
00:34:24,839 --> 00:34:27,469
getting themselves into because they
didn't know all of this could be queried.
727
00:34:27,749 --> 00:34:31,559
So- Yeah … they were dumb enough to post
all this on social media, so we would just
728
00:34:31,589 --> 00:34:33,269
pull all of it right off of social media.
729
00:34:33,679 --> 00:34:36,709
That w- that became part of the
the overall package for how we're
730
00:34:36,709 --> 00:34:39,329
proving that they're involved
with this conspiratorial activity.
731
00:34:39,569 --> 00:34:42,929
But obviously you can't take away from
y- your paid open source intelligence
732
00:34:42,929 --> 00:34:46,719
databases, even your records management
and other database, law enforcement
733
00:34:46,729 --> 00:34:48,109
databases that we have access to.
734
00:34:48,109 --> 00:34:51,769
CalGANGs was a big one at least in
California, because at the time it
735
00:34:51,769 --> 00:34:54,829
was a state database where a lot of
different agencies would put into
736
00:34:54,829 --> 00:34:58,579
it, and it was all gang-related, and
it operated under 28 CFR as well.
737
00:34:59,009 --> 00:35:02,809
So that was a big one that I went to
see what other people said about what
738
00:35:02,819 --> 00:35:04,149
the people we were interested in.
739
00:35:04,389 --> 00:35:05,589
And then it would network us.
740
00:35:05,649 --> 00:35:08,139
It's if LA can contacted this guy,
then we could pick up the phone
741
00:35:08,139 --> 00:35:10,809
and call someone in LA or get
connected with their intelligence
742
00:35:11,059 --> 00:35:12,409
unit and start a conversation.
743
00:35:12,739 --> 00:35:14,989
So it was I would say
CalGANGs was a big one.
744
00:35:15,009 --> 00:35:18,739
But you don't like drop all of the
crime analysis tools, so to speak.
745
00:35:18,739 --> 00:35:22,559
You just, you pur- repurpose them for
your purpose because we still needed
746
00:35:22,559 --> 00:35:25,699
to know who had warrants out for
their arrest, where do people live,
747
00:35:26,079 --> 00:35:27,349
what phone numbers are they using.
748
00:35:27,349 --> 00:35:28,709
Phone numbers were hard at the time.
749
00:35:28,709 --> 00:35:29,939
Now everybody has a cell phone.
750
00:35:30,199 --> 00:35:32,599
But at the time, cell phone
stuff was really hard to run.
751
00:35:32,609 --> 00:35:34,379
We didn't really have a
database that did it well.
752
00:35:34,379 --> 00:35:35,439
Now everybody does it well.
753
00:35:36,409 --> 00:35:36,429
Yeah.
754
00:35:36,439 --> 00:35:39,899
So, but all of that stuff was
also incorporated into the
755
00:35:39,899 --> 00:35:41,549
investigation side of things.
756
00:35:41,979 --> 00:35:45,419
But what we were more interested in
is that gen- that, that drove the
757
00:35:45,419 --> 00:35:48,589
investigation, but the things that
we put in our intelligence database
758
00:35:48,609 --> 00:35:50,999
were s- were the things that we
could not get from other places.
759
00:35:51,689 --> 00:35:55,499
So if somebody self-admitted to something
or said, "These people are involved
760
00:35:55,499 --> 00:35:58,889
with these, and I know that because I'm
a, I have a, I'm a firsthand witness
761
00:35:58,889 --> 00:36:02,099
of this," all of that got written
in a report, an intelligence report.
762
00:36:02,319 --> 00:36:04,149
That was not in records m- management.
763
00:36:04,179 --> 00:36:05,029
None of it was.
764
00:36:05,319 --> 00:36:07,559
W- we even ran confidential informants.
765
00:36:07,559 --> 00:36:08,639
That stayed internal.
766
00:36:08,949 --> 00:36:13,109
So, so there was this aspect even
within our agency where we had, for
767
00:36:13,109 --> 00:36:16,509
authorized use only on our door, even
within our own even within the same
768
00:36:16,509 --> 00:36:19,889
building or the same office because you
had to have a need to know and a right
769
00:36:19,889 --> 00:36:23,699
to know what we were doing because it
was very confidential and we didn't
770
00:36:23,699 --> 00:36:25,309
wanna violate people's civil rights.
771
00:36:25,319 --> 00:36:28,119
We were operating under reasonable
suspicion, not probable cause.
772
00:36:28,469 --> 00:36:31,769
So any time you're dealing with that,
you have to be very careful not to
773
00:36:31,769 --> 00:36:33,209
violate somebody's civil rights.
774
00:36:33,219 --> 00:36:37,129
So th- somebody had to articulate to us
why they needed to know what we knew.
775
00:36:37,449 --> 00:36:40,519
And it wasn't hard to write a
criminal case number down, tell
776
00:36:40,519 --> 00:36:42,839
me you're investigating this and
this is a witness or a suspect.
777
00:36:43,419 --> 00:36:44,562
Okay, we can share with you now.
778
00:36:44,562 --> 00:36:46,572
You have a need to know,
right to know, it wasn't hard.
779
00:36:46,592 --> 00:36:49,582
We just needed justification
because we didn't, again,
780
00:36:49,582 --> 00:36:50,732
wanna get ourselves in trouble.
781
00:36:51,172 --> 00:36:51,322
Yeah.
782
00:36:51,372 --> 00:36:57,042
It's important because you and
your unit established themselves
783
00:36:57,072 --> 00:36:58,512
as a cog in the machine.
784
00:36:58,622 --> 00:37:04,822
I I think one of the things as I look
back at my career and even what I
785
00:37:04,822 --> 00:37:11,758
observed over in analysis over the last
20 years is- That sometimes analysts
786
00:37:11,918 --> 00:37:18,228
can be put in a situation at their
department where they can operate on
787
00:37:18,228 --> 00:37:22,818
the side where people may not fully
understand what their contribution is,
788
00:37:23,058 --> 00:37:27,208
and they can just be off to the side
doing their thing and not necessarily
789
00:37:27,968 --> 00:37:30,028
part of the day-to-day operation.
790
00:37:30,348 --> 00:37:35,778
And I think the biggest fulfillment
that an analyst can have is to establish
791
00:37:35,778 --> 00:37:42,548
themselves to be a cog in the machine and
have a clear flow of work go through them.
792
00:37:42,548 --> 00:37:45,738
That's wh- that's why I think with
the real time crime centers, I think
793
00:37:45,738 --> 00:37:50,138
that's why that's taken off so well is
'cause people can absolutely see for
794
00:37:50,308 --> 00:37:56,178
the process, the data flow, and analysts
are in that situation clearly fulfilled.
795
00:37:56,278 --> 00:38:00,618
But in your case here being part
of this intelligence unit, again,
796
00:38:00,628 --> 00:38:03,258
people are seeing the value.
797
00:38:03,278 --> 00:38:06,778
People are seeing like, "Oh, y- you're
gonna actually use my information?
798
00:38:06,808 --> 00:38:09,868
Sure. I'll write more if that's
what you're going to do." If it's,
799
00:38:10,108 --> 00:38:13,128
if somebody's gonna use it I'll
gladly give it type of situation.
800
00:38:13,408 --> 00:38:14,178
Yeah, for sure.
801
00:38:14,228 --> 00:38:16,668
It's I would argue that, yeah,
that's even the case now.
802
00:38:16,828 --> 00:38:20,718
We ha- we saw a decline even in field
interview cards when I was a crime
803
00:38:20,718 --> 00:38:25,248
analyst at the station until I started
putting out a monthly FI report.
804
00:38:25,278 --> 00:38:26,848
Here's everybody that was FI'd last month.
805
00:38:27,178 --> 00:38:30,068
And then all the deputies were like,
"Oh, something's actually done with that?
806
00:38:30,118 --> 00:38:34,268
Okay." And then, a- and then it went
from 20 to 80 in a month instead,
807
00:38:34,328 --> 00:38:38,678
so, again, this networking and this
conversation is crucial, for sure.
808
00:38:39,418 --> 00:38:39,668
Yeah.
809
00:38:40,328 --> 00:38:45,998
Let's go move on then because you
end up leaving the sheriff's office-
810
00:38:46,388 --> 00:38:51,318
To take a senior crime analyst
role with the San Bernardino County
811
00:38:51,318 --> 00:38:54,208
Probation Department in 2012.
812
00:38:54,218 --> 00:38:58,378
Let's talk about just that decision
to transfer over there and some
813
00:38:58,378 --> 00:38:59,598
of the stuff that you got into.
814
00:39:00,028 --> 00:39:04,398
Yeah, so the environment behind my
decision at the time was we were
815
00:39:04,398 --> 00:39:08,158
in a deficit as a county at the
time- . And we were on furloughs.
816
00:39:08,508 --> 00:39:10,268
There was no promotions because of that.
817
00:39:10,518 --> 00:39:10,988
We went home.
818
00:39:11,038 --> 00:39:14,628
I think we went almost two or three years
with no promotions or no step increases.
819
00:39:14,988 --> 00:39:18,348
And so I finally got to the, to,
to the place where it's well, what
820
00:39:18,348 --> 00:39:19,758
am I gonna do for upward mobility?
821
00:39:19,758 --> 00:39:24,028
It's like this is the, this is a, an
interesting situation I find myself in.
822
00:39:24,318 --> 00:39:25,338
… I'm loving what I'm doing.
823
00:39:25,358 --> 00:39:26,428
I'm loving the intel unit.
824
00:39:26,458 --> 00:39:29,453
I don't really wanna leave but
but that that, that furloughing
825
00:39:29,463 --> 00:39:30,643
was was hitting us hard.
826
00:39:30,653 --> 00:39:35,773
In conjunction with, that was probably
s- secondary to I, I also have a lot of
827
00:39:35,773 --> 00:39:39,333
intelligence experience and I would love
to apply that in a different domain to
828
00:39:39,333 --> 00:39:41,003
see if I can kickstart something new.
829
00:39:41,363 --> 00:39:44,723
… And so this was my way of taking
a chance and a gamble if you will.
830
00:39:45,053 --> 00:39:47,593
And to do something new
and build it from scratch.
831
00:39:48,003 --> 00:39:51,783
And so when this when the San
Bernardino Probation Department first
832
00:39:51,803 --> 00:39:56,043
put out their job classification it
was with Assembly Bill 109 money.
833
00:39:56,043 --> 00:39:59,613
And for those who don't know what this
is, and people in the domain do, or
834
00:39:59,613 --> 00:40:02,903
people in California who have lived here
longer than 20 years know what this is.
835
00:40:03,283 --> 00:40:07,723
But Assembly Bill 109 was essentially
a way for the state to save money
836
00:40:07,963 --> 00:40:11,733
and to declutter the state prisons
by releasing certain inmates
837
00:40:11,743 --> 00:40:13,243
back to the local jurisdictions.
838
00:40:13,243 --> 00:40:14,193
It saved them money.
839
00:40:14,443 --> 00:40:17,993
It, and and then it gave the
responsibility back to your
840
00:40:18,003 --> 00:40:21,053
counties and your county probation
officers to do the supervision
841
00:40:21,053 --> 00:40:22,363
instead of state parole agents.
842
00:40:22,813 --> 00:40:26,323
I can go off on a tangent on the f-
on the FUBAR that came out of that.
843
00:40:27,083 --> 00:40:30,113
Because because they didn't implement
it correctly and you had a lot of
844
00:40:30,123 --> 00:40:32,573
people coming out that shouldn't
and it caused a lot of problems.
845
00:40:32,833 --> 00:40:35,973
But the one benefit that came out
of AB 109 is that the state was
846
00:40:35,993 --> 00:40:39,243
providing funding to the local
jurisdictions to help them with
847
00:40:39,243 --> 00:40:40,783
the influx of people coming back.
848
00:40:41,153 --> 00:40:43,563
A lot of that went to courts and
a lot of went, of that went to
849
00:40:43,563 --> 00:40:46,113
probation departments because
those were the two that were most
850
00:40:46,113 --> 00:40:48,353
affected by this by this legislation.
851
00:40:48,993 --> 00:40:53,045
And so- what San Bernardino County
Probation Department chose to do with
852
00:40:53,055 --> 00:40:57,005
that money that they were receiving is
they chose to be innovative and start
853
00:40:57,005 --> 00:41:01,045
a criminal intelligence unit to keep
track of the worst probationers that
854
00:41:01,045 --> 00:41:04,055
they were coming across that were,
might be involved in conspiratorial
855
00:41:04,055 --> 00:41:05,315
activity within the domain.
856
00:41:05,645 --> 00:41:07,975
There was obviously a lot
of crossover with the San
857
00:41:07,975 --> 00:41:09,495
Bernardino Sheriff's Department.
858
00:41:09,735 --> 00:41:14,075
… it seemed like a great opportunity
to really dive into something
859
00:41:14,075 --> 00:41:17,515
different, new, and innovative, because
probation departments historically did
860
00:41:17,555 --> 00:41:21,335
historically, at least in California, to
my knowledge did not have intelligence
861
00:41:21,335 --> 00:41:23,315
components as part of their department.
862
00:41:23,695 --> 00:41:26,975
So this was a great opportunity
to do something different and
863
00:41:26,975 --> 00:41:28,295
to build something from scratch.
864
00:41:28,295 --> 00:41:32,665
So i- that was the incentive that caused
me to jump ship and try to go over there.
865
00:41:32,675 --> 00:41:35,645
It obviously was a pay increase
as well full transparency.
866
00:41:36,155 --> 00:41:40,965
And but the problem is, when I got
over there, n- everybody had the money.
867
00:41:41,335 --> 00:41:44,525
They wanted to say they had a
criminal intelligence unit, but
868
00:41:44,525 --> 00:41:45,675
nobody knew what that meant.
869
00:41:46,815 --> 00:41:47,805
That's the problem.
870
00:41:48,065 --> 00:41:51,655
What is your responsibility as
the supervising, , as the main
871
00:41:51,705 --> 00:41:53,075
leader of the probation department.
872
00:41:53,195 --> 00:41:54,485
What is your responsibility?
873
00:41:54,485 --> 00:41:57,015
What's the responsibility
underneath the people underneath
874
00:41:57,015 --> 00:41:58,135
you who's supervising us?
875
00:41:58,355 --> 00:41:59,705
What are our responsibilities?
876
00:41:59,785 --> 00:42:01,305
What are we supposed to be tackling?
877
00:42:01,425 --> 00:42:04,495
What subset of your data are
we go- are we looking at?
878
00:42:04,905 --> 00:42:08,045
I didn't know the domain, so I'm
looking for someone to tell me
879
00:42:08,045 --> 00:42:09,875
that, and I was getting crickets.
880
00:42:09,875 --> 00:42:12,925
And I'm like, "Can I go on a
ride-along with a probation
881
00:42:12,925 --> 00:42:14,905
officer?" Just, s- help me out here.
882
00:42:15,605 --> 00:42:19,925
So, it was three months of people
expecting me to do all of the work.
883
00:42:20,085 --> 00:42:24,085
The, I had a supervisor that didn't
understand the difficulties of
884
00:42:24,085 --> 00:42:28,745
starting this up, nor did he understand
his particular role in it, fully.
885
00:42:28,925 --> 00:42:31,065
And then on top of that,
I didn't have any tools.
886
00:42:31,065 --> 00:42:35,275
It to- it took me almost, what was it
three weeks on the job- … before I ever
887
00:42:35,275 --> 00:42:39,161
had a computer So, like, how am I supposed
to do link analysis in any capacity
888
00:42:39,161 --> 00:42:42,181
without a computer, let alone the software
on the computer to be able to do it?
889
00:42:42,911 --> 00:42:43,731
So, like- Post-it
890
00:42:43,731 --> 00:42:44,241
Notes, apparently.
891
00:42:44,661 --> 00:42:46,261
I I was gonna say, g-
give me a whiteboard.
892
00:42:46,311 --> 00:42:49,731
I'll do it old school if we
have to, so, so there was a
893
00:42:49,731 --> 00:42:51,241
lot of lot of issues with that.
894
00:42:51,241 --> 00:42:53,571
The supervisor and I butted
heads a little bit 'cause he
895
00:42:53,571 --> 00:42:54,961
didn't understand the hardship.
896
00:42:54,961 --> 00:42:56,971
He didn't understand his role in it.
897
00:42:56,981 --> 00:42:59,561
He didn't understand why I was coming
to him and saying "These are some
898
00:42:59,561 --> 00:43:02,731
difficulties I'm having. I would love
some support with this." He pointed me
899
00:43:02,731 --> 00:43:04,431
to the research department for that.
900
00:43:04,631 --> 00:43:07,111
And the research department
wanted to be intelligence, so
901
00:43:07,111 --> 00:43:08,291
there was politics involved.
902
00:43:08,511 --> 00:43:11,541
So there's a lot of stuff that
went on, and it just- I found out
903
00:43:11,541 --> 00:43:14,991
probably two, three months into
it, it wasn't a good fit for me.
904
00:43:15,081 --> 00:43:16,501
It wasn't a good fit- Yeah … for them.
905
00:43:16,841 --> 00:43:20,331
And I wish I would've known that earlier,
because I loved what I was doing.
906
00:43:20,331 --> 00:43:22,091
I was in an intelligence
unit that gave a crap.
907
00:43:22,461 --> 00:43:25,011
So, but when I when I was
there for about three months.
908
00:43:25,041 --> 00:43:25,941
I learned a lot.
909
00:43:25,991 --> 00:43:27,031
Maybe four months.
910
00:43:27,171 --> 00:43:29,051
I, and I learned a lot about AB 109.
911
00:43:29,081 --> 00:43:30,821
I learned a lot about
the probation domain.
912
00:43:30,841 --> 00:43:32,241
I wouldn't take it back for the world.
913
00:43:32,351 --> 00:43:36,681
It was information that I would never know
otherwise and the in, and the intricacies
914
00:43:36,681 --> 00:43:39,531
of how the probation department
was affected by this legislation.
915
00:43:40,051 --> 00:43:42,951
But I ended up getting let go
before I made it off of probation.
916
00:43:42,971 --> 00:43:46,921
And I saw that coming and it wasn't
unanticipated, but obviously
917
00:43:46,921 --> 00:43:49,381
it wasn't a good fit for the
department or me at the time.
918
00:43:49,381 --> 00:43:52,381
So th- that's why I was only there
for three months full transparency.
919
00:43:52,851 --> 00:43:53,161
Yeah.
920
00:43:53,161 --> 00:43:57,421
Was was that because it was more of a
grant-based and just the money dried up?
921
00:43:58,143 --> 00:43:59,533
No, the money was still there.
922
00:43:59,533 --> 00:44:01,343
They just didn't think I was a good fit.
923
00:44:01,353 --> 00:44:05,083
They ended- Sure … they hired
someone in fact ironically the current
924
00:44:05,103 --> 00:44:08,513
in- intelligence analyst who's over
there right now was an intern that
925
00:44:08,513 --> 00:44:10,753
interned with me, that I helped train.
926
00:44:11,443 --> 00:44:12,483
That's the irony with this.
927
00:44:12,493 --> 00:44:16,353
And she even asked me "Because of what
happened with you, should I be wary?" I'm
928
00:44:16,353 --> 00:44:19,623
like, "Don't allow what happened with me
dictate what… You're a different person.
929
00:44:19,633 --> 00:44:22,503
You're a different personality." Yeah.
You're, you go over there and decide
930
00:44:22,503 --> 00:44:24,933
for yourself whether it's a good
fit, don't take my bad experiences
931
00:44:24,933 --> 00:44:26,283
and then make a decision." Yeah.
932
00:44:26,293 --> 00:44:30,693
So she went over there, and
she's been there since 2012, '13.
933
00:44:30,693 --> 00:44:32,293
So she's been there 12, 15 years.
934
00:44:32,303 --> 00:44:32,323
Yeah.
935
00:44:32,633 --> 00:44:35,183
And apparently doing well and
thriving- Yeah … over there.
936
00:44:35,183 --> 00:44:38,473
So it's but it was me encouraging
her to go do that, which is the
937
00:44:38,473 --> 00:44:39,723
reason why they have an analyst.
938
00:44:40,333 --> 00:44:40,353
Yeah.
939
00:44:40,353 --> 00:44:43,683
So there's a lot of ironies to this,
but, life is life, and you gotta
940
00:44:43,683 --> 00:44:46,973
roll with the punches, and it was
a first time I've ever been told
941
00:44:46,973 --> 00:44:49,333
that I wasn't above par on anything.
942
00:44:49,383 --> 00:44:54,063
I was a 3.7 GPA, so I was like, "Now
you're telling me that I'm subpar?" Yeah.
943
00:44:54,483 --> 00:44:55,833
I've never been told I was subpar.
944
00:44:55,863 --> 00:44:58,213
That w- that was a huge blow
to my character at the time.
945
00:44:58,213 --> 00:45:01,533
So, I did go through that
aspect of it, but i- I would
946
00:45:01,533 --> 00:45:02,773
not take it back for the world.
947
00:45:02,773 --> 00:45:02,793
Yeah.
948
00:45:03,063 --> 00:45:05,123
Good and bad, because it was
a good learning experience.
949
00:45:05,533 --> 00:45:08,453
, It's kinda like your
second internship in a way.
950
00:45:08,463 --> 00:45:08,483
Yeah.
951
00:45:08,493 --> 00:45:11,523
One of the things I say on this
show a lot of times is sometimes
952
00:45:11,523 --> 00:45:15,253
you go to an internship to figure
out what you don't wanna do, and to-
953
00:45:15,283 --> 00:45:15,553
Yes
954
00:45:15,563 --> 00:45:20,063
really get a different perspective, and
it might not be in line with your goals.
955
00:45:20,073 --> 00:45:20,093
Yeah.
956
00:45:20,113 --> 00:45:22,773
So it seems like that was
your second internship.
957
00:45:22,903 --> 00:45:24,923
100%. I couldn't have said it better.
958
00:45:26,053 --> 00:45:32,163
Fortunately, you got an opportunity
though to work your way back into
959
00:45:32,173 --> 00:45:33,603
Riverside Sheriff's Department.
960
00:45:33,923 --> 00:45:37,573
Yeah, so it's the challenge of
getting employed once you let, get
961
00:45:37,573 --> 00:45:39,553
let go off of probation is difficult.
962
00:45:39,613 --> 00:45:40,683
I'm not gonna say it's not.
963
00:45:41,093 --> 00:45:44,763
And it's because from my pers- I've never
… This is the first time I've ever been on
964
00:45:44,763 --> 00:45:47,943
that side of it where I- Yeah … I had to
try to market myself in such a way where
965
00:45:47,943 --> 00:45:49,933
I'm still valuable but not a liability.
966
00:45:49,943 --> 00:45:51,603
That's hard to do on an interview.
967
00:45:51,663 --> 00:45:54,783
And then you're sitting in front of
officers who are used to suspects
968
00:45:54,783 --> 00:45:58,853
saying "No, Officer, I didn't do
it, Officer." So, when I'm telling
969
00:45:58,853 --> 00:46:01,843
them, "Look, I got let go but it
wasn't my fault," "Yeah, we hear that
970
00:46:01,843 --> 00:46:02,683
every day on the street." I know.
971
00:46:02,683 --> 00:46:04,723
That, that's the whole
feel I got out of this.
972
00:46:05,123 --> 00:46:05,143
Yeah.
973
00:46:05,153 --> 00:46:08,903
I was very blessed that Brian
knew intimately what had happened.
974
00:46:08,913 --> 00:46:11,433
He knew the difficulties of
what happened over there.
975
00:46:11,833 --> 00:46:15,403
And so when it came up that they
had an opening, I jumped on board
976
00:46:15,403 --> 00:46:17,893
to try to get back in because
I didn't have the same stigma.
977
00:46:17,903 --> 00:46:17,923
Yeah.
978
00:46:18,293 --> 00:46:21,673
And so I was very blessed to just
be given an opportunity without
979
00:46:21,673 --> 00:46:24,843
the stigma being held over my head,
and that's how I got back into the
980
00:46:24,903 --> 00:46:26,033
Riverside Sheriff's Department.
981
00:46:26,443 --> 00:46:29,143
It did ru- it did rub certain
administrators the wrong way.
982
00:46:29,183 --> 00:46:31,463
I was not put back in the
intelligence department.
983
00:46:31,463 --> 00:46:34,603
In fact, I wasn't even put in the Special
Investigations Bureau at the time.
984
00:46:34,603 --> 00:46:37,383
That was supposed to be more of
a prestigious unit to support.
985
00:46:37,593 --> 00:46:40,213
They basic- the captain at the time
basically said, "Well, because he jumped
986
00:46:40,213 --> 00:46:43,003
ship and he's coming back and he's not
loyal, he's got to work his way back
987
00:46:43,033 --> 00:46:44,273
up. Go put him at a station." Yeah.
988
00:46:44,733 --> 00:46:47,273
And it was the best thing that could've
happened because then I got station
989
00:46:47,273 --> 00:46:49,103
experience, and I know how that works now.
990
00:46:49,103 --> 00:46:53,983
So again, e- everything works out, and
you can look at it as people are against
991
00:46:53,983 --> 00:46:57,143
you or you can look at it as opportunities
in order to grow as a person.
992
00:46:57,143 --> 00:47:00,053
And I , to my best of my
ability, the latter of that, so.
993
00:47:00,053 --> 00:47:06,423
Yeah, and that's one lesson that I wish
I would've been able to give myself,
994
00:47:06,443 --> 00:47:09,043
especially in my 20s and early 30s-
995
00:47:09,233 --> 00:47:14,403
That when something like that happened
to me, I was transferred without being
996
00:47:14,433 --> 00:47:20,473
asked or, given an assignment that I
didn't ask for, I didn't have the best
997
00:47:20,503 --> 00:47:25,673
attitude of "Oh, this is an opportunity
…" I took it as it being shit on.
998
00:47:26,293 --> 00:47:30,203
It was like… And I was very vocal
about not being happy about it, and
999
00:47:30,203 --> 00:47:34,113
that's definitely something that
in hindsight I would've been like
1000
00:47:34,143 --> 00:47:36,223
let's treat this as an opportunity.
1001
00:47:36,443 --> 00:47:40,773
It's not forever, and let's just
see, what cake we can bake."
1002
00:47:40,893 --> 00:47:41,123
Yeah.
1003
00:47:41,123 --> 00:47:45,113
In f- again, in my career I've
been transferred five times, Jason.
1004
00:47:46,003 --> 00:47:46,023
Yeah.
1005
00:47:46,043 --> 00:47:47,613
Only one of them was my choice.
1006
00:47:48,843 --> 00:47:52,533
And it's always, "We n- you are the
best fit for this position, and we need
1007
00:47:52,533 --> 00:47:53,973
you over here because you're doing…"
1008
00:47:54,073 --> 00:47:58,013
Well, it, that could be the case or
unconsciously it could be "You're not
1009
00:47:58,013 --> 00:48:00,713
a good fit over here. You're causing
problems. We don't like you." Yeah.
1010
00:48:00,713 --> 00:48:02,353
"You gotta…" It, that, that happens.
1011
00:48:02,353 --> 00:48:05,173
They will never say that, but
that does happen on the not
1012
00:48:05,173 --> 00:48:06,793
the ov- on the covert level.
1013
00:48:07,143 --> 00:48:10,083
But I've tried to take every
one of those as, of course, the
1014
00:48:10,083 --> 00:48:13,013
initial gut response is, "Why am
I being transferred? Why me?" Yes.
1015
00:48:13,023 --> 00:48:17,053
But I have learned that every time I have
been transferred into a new assignment,
1016
00:48:17,313 --> 00:48:20,883
I learn something different and this
current assignment w- that I'm in right
1017
00:48:20,883 --> 00:48:25,463
now I had a hard time with it when I
initially was put here, because it's
1018
00:48:25,463 --> 00:48:26,923
not traditional crime analysis work.
1019
00:48:26,923 --> 00:48:30,593
I'm doing, I'm using within the
public health domain I'm providing
1020
00:48:30,593 --> 00:48:33,243
coroner data and analyzing
coroner data, not crime data.
1021
00:48:33,243 --> 00:48:34,233
It's entirely different.
1022
00:48:34,757 --> 00:48:37,297
And so, because it's
with regard to overdoses.
1023
00:48:37,597 --> 00:48:41,407
So when I was in, in that domain, I'm
like, "I wanna be a crime analyst.
1024
00:48:41,407 --> 00:48:43,787
I wanna help the community,
bring the bad guy to justice.
1025
00:48:43,787 --> 00:48:47,787
This is what I signed up for." And I
was really resistant at the time. And
1026
00:48:47,787 --> 00:48:51,017
Bro- it was Brian that basically said,
"Dude, this is a really chill job.
1027
00:48:51,157 --> 00:48:52,347
You can make it what you want.
1028
00:48:52,367 --> 00:48:53,887
You can learn a lot while you're here.
1029
00:48:54,127 --> 00:48:56,797
I know you don't necessarily
want to do this transfer.
1030
00:48:56,987 --> 00:48:59,067
Just- … accept it and come
over here," and J- Brian was
1031
00:48:59,067 --> 00:49:00,267
in that job before he retired.
1032
00:49:00,487 --> 00:49:02,177
And he's like- … "I'll teach you
what you need to know and you'll be
1033
00:49:02,177 --> 00:49:05,207
fine." And I'm like- Yeah … "Okay,
cool." Then I got over there.
1034
00:49:05,357 --> 00:49:06,817
I'm three miles from the house.
1035
00:49:07,167 --> 00:49:09,027
I could actually be present for my family.
1036
00:49:09,077 --> 00:49:12,297
So at any given time it's " can you take
lunch and come over here and be part
1037
00:49:12,297 --> 00:49:14,097
of this with your family?" Absolutely.
1038
00:49:14,237 --> 00:49:16,477
It's a, it's a- Wow … it's a
10-minute drive to school and a
1039
00:49:16,477 --> 00:49:18,827
10-minute drive back, and then I
can be there for the assignment.
1040
00:49:19,117 --> 00:49:21,877
It was the best thing for the in
the world for my family, Jason.
1041
00:49:22,097 --> 00:49:22,117
Yeah.
1042
00:49:22,137 --> 00:49:25,977
So it's like in hindsight, all of these
things there's goods and there's bads
1043
00:49:26,147 --> 00:49:29,947
and I'm lear- I've learned, I didn't
know at the time, but I learned at, I've
1044
00:49:29,947 --> 00:49:33,417
learned over time looking in hindsight
that every single one of these has
1045
00:49:33,417 --> 00:49:35,217
a silver lining, and you have- Yeah
1046
00:49:35,217 --> 00:49:36,407
to find that silver lining.
1047
00:49:36,677 --> 00:49:39,537
And it's not only what's in the
best interest of your family, but
1048
00:49:39,537 --> 00:49:43,397
it might also be what's in the best
interest of your career because every
1049
00:49:43,397 --> 00:49:46,357
single assignment I've been in has
allowed me to bolster my resume.
1050
00:49:46,667 --> 00:49:50,237
I keep telling people on a side
note, arguably I am one of the most
1051
00:49:50,237 --> 00:49:54,707
well-rounded analysts in the department,
arguably in the state, because I have
1052
00:49:54,717 --> 00:49:59,137
worked almost every single assignment
function within crime analysis there is.
1053
00:49:59,137 --> 00:50:00,907
I've worked intelligence,
I've worked special teams.
1054
00:50:00,907 --> 00:50:03,087
I've worked large scale
domestic terrorist operations.
1055
00:50:03,277 --> 00:50:05,447
I had a secret clearance
with the FBI because I had to
1056
00:50:05,447 --> 00:50:06,857
work with the JTTF officer.
1057
00:50:07,077 --> 00:50:07,087
Yeah.
1058
00:50:07,087 --> 00:50:10,567
I've worked all of these different
things, and that markets you if
1059
00:50:10,567 --> 00:50:14,817
somebody is looking for somebody to
understand how to supervise later.
1060
00:50:15,017 --> 00:50:19,157
If you understand the domain already
you're three steps ahead of the person
1061
00:50:19,157 --> 00:50:21,807
to your left or to your right that
does not understand the domain that
1062
00:50:21,807 --> 00:50:25,507
stayed at a station for 20 years and
didn't have the whole well-roundedness.
1063
00:50:25,517 --> 00:50:28,737
So there's a lot of good that came
from me being forced transferred
1064
00:50:28,737 --> 00:50:30,187
or volun- told to go places.
1065
00:50:30,727 --> 00:50:32,647
I actually in hindsight look
at that as a blessing now
1066
00:50:32,647 --> 00:50:33,707
'cause it bolstered my resume.
1067
00:50:34,087 --> 00:50:38,227
And so now there's more credibility when I
speak, a- at least within this department.
1068
00:50:38,577 --> 00:50:42,697
So, if I c- if I can depart any
words of wisdom, sometimes a bad
1069
00:50:42,697 --> 00:50:44,047
thing is not necessarily a bad thing.
1070
00:50:44,047 --> 00:50:46,247
It g- it's all a matter of
perspective, and that's something- Yeah
1071
00:50:46,247 --> 00:50:47,877
that I can pass on to the next generation.
1072
00:50:48,317 --> 00:50:48,557
Yeah.
1073
00:50:48,807 --> 00:50:49,207
Sure.
1074
00:50:49,207 --> 00:50:54,267
Let's get into- that a little bit then
, with the coroner's bureau, 'cause I think
1075
00:50:54,267 --> 00:50:59,927
that's a fairly recent phenomenon I think
nationally here in the United States.
1076
00:50:59,927 --> 00:51:03,307
We d- we talked earlier about sometimes
people don't wanna go beyond the
1077
00:51:03,467 --> 00:51:07,481
police department outside of the
police department to coordinate.
1078
00:51:07,691 --> 00:51:11,881
Well, th- historically, it's almost been
the same thing within the city, right?
1079
00:51:11,921 --> 00:51:16,391
The different city departments didn't
wanna play well together, and this is
1080
00:51:16,721 --> 00:51:23,819
really something that I've seen Recently
where you are seeing more in terms of
1081
00:51:23,819 --> 00:51:29,989
public health and law enforcement and
different entities within the the city
1082
00:51:30,329 --> 00:51:34,499
to treat it as a public problem, as
not just a law enforcement problem.
1083
00:51:34,959 --> 00:51:37,279
Yeah, I can speak to what you're
saying on two different ways.
1084
00:51:37,279 --> 00:51:39,219
I'll t- I'll start with
the intelligence domain.
1085
00:51:39,499 --> 00:51:44,259
It has al- local, state, and federal,
specifically FBI, have always had
1086
00:51:44,259 --> 00:51:46,469
problems interworking together.
1087
00:51:46,779 --> 00:51:49,939
And some of that is because
there's this perception I'm
1088
00:51:49,939 --> 00:51:51,119
gonna say it from my perspective.
1089
00:51:51,129 --> 00:51:54,609
. If I give the FBI information and they
don't share information back, it's
1090
00:51:54,609 --> 00:51:58,099
because we don't have a policy in place
that explains how to share information.
1091
00:51:58,204 --> 00:51:59,344
We're not on the same playbook.
1092
00:51:59,344 --> 00:51:59,664
Yeah.
1093
00:51:59,664 --> 00:52:03,204
And so th- a lot of the tension was
I'm giving you all this information,
1094
00:52:03,384 --> 00:52:06,414
you're collating it with a bunch
of other agencies' information, and
1095
00:52:06,414 --> 00:52:09,074
you're not sharing any of it back
because you don't want to share
1096
00:52:09,094 --> 00:52:10,644
everybody's information with everybody.
1097
00:52:10,894 --> 00:52:14,094
How about you just sign a policy or
an MOU that says, "If you're going to
1098
00:52:14,094 --> 00:52:17,254
share information with us, then you are
conceding the fact that everybody who's
1099
00:52:17,254 --> 00:52:20,294
involved in this that has been vetted
will be able to see your information.
1100
00:52:20,294 --> 00:52:22,944
Sign here on the dotted line." And
then everybody could share anything.
1101
00:52:23,004 --> 00:52:26,524
I didn't underst- I didn't understand the
difficulty of this at the time, but it
1102
00:52:26,524 --> 00:52:30,064
caused problems where we weren't talking
to the FBI wasn't talking to the state.
1103
00:52:30,294 --> 00:52:31,904
Well, how do you think 9/11 happened?
1104
00:52:32,534 --> 00:52:36,484
Well, the same thing happened with
9/11 because someone over here had
1105
00:52:36,484 --> 00:52:38,694
a piece of information that they
didn't share with this person.
1106
00:52:39,084 --> 00:52:43,914
So coming out of 9/11 2001 and for the
newer generation that may not even have
1107
00:52:43,914 --> 00:52:47,364
been born at that time, that's when the
trade- World Trade Centers got attacked
1108
00:52:47,414 --> 00:52:49,104
. I don't wanna assume people know that now.
1109
00:52:49,194 --> 00:52:49,384
Yeah.
1110
00:52:49,494 --> 00:52:52,704
But when that happened the ODNI
at the time came out with a
1111
00:52:52,704 --> 00:52:54,784
responsibility to provide clause.
1112
00:52:54,924 --> 00:52:56,754
It wa- it wasn't a need to know anymore.
1113
00:52:56,844 --> 00:52:59,524
You're, you have a responsibility
to provide information
1114
00:52:59,534 --> 00:53:00,644
that could stop something.
1115
00:53:00,964 --> 00:53:04,814
And we operated under that
for a long time by creating a
1116
00:53:04,814 --> 00:53:06,654
procedure to share information.
1117
00:53:06,654 --> 00:53:09,934
And once we started sharing information,
not only was it an internal we
1118
00:53:09,934 --> 00:53:13,724
worked better internally within the
sheriff's department, we worked inter-
1119
00:53:13,724 --> 00:53:16,554
interrelationally with other departments
at the federal and the state level
1120
00:53:16,554 --> 00:53:17,994
because we were all on the same playbook.
1121
00:53:18,514 --> 00:53:21,714
So th- this rift has happened
a lot where, people wanna be
1122
00:53:21,714 --> 00:53:23,014
siloed and do their own thing.
1123
00:53:23,244 --> 00:53:27,194
The second part of this cur- currently
is where different disciplines are
1124
00:53:27,194 --> 00:53:30,564
coming together, and arguably that came
out of the Black Lives Matter movement
1125
00:53:30,564 --> 00:53:33,734
and the woke movement, and do we have
a system of racism within our systems?
1126
00:53:33,734 --> 00:53:37,354
And, it w- I have my thoughts on that
I'll save unless you wanna dive into that.
1127
00:53:37,354 --> 00:53:40,794
But the good thing I think that came
out of that is, is law enforcement,
1128
00:53:41,044 --> 00:53:43,884
is the discipline of law enforcement
the be all, end all to the problem?
1129
00:53:44,244 --> 00:53:45,674
And the answer to that is no.
1130
00:53:46,134 --> 00:53:50,742
And so even within our our agency, we
have community- Behavioral Assessment
1131
00:53:50,752 --> 00:53:52,902
Teams, and they're called CBAT teams.
1132
00:53:52,952 --> 00:53:56,182
This is where you have somebody from
behavioral health embedded with a deputy
1133
00:53:56,182 --> 00:54:00,408
who responds to follow-up calls about
mental health primarily It's because the
1134
00:54:00,408 --> 00:54:03,108
deputy, because deputies really don't
know what to do with mental health.
1135
00:54:03,128 --> 00:54:05,678
They just see non-compliance
and they force compliance.
1136
00:54:05,828 --> 00:54:08,578
Well, that doesn't work when you,
someone's having a mental health crisis.
1137
00:54:08,868 --> 00:54:12,438
So arguably, if a case worker
could come out and actually talk
1138
00:54:12,438 --> 00:54:15,938
to this guy and get, and deescalate
the situation with a deputy, that
1139
00:54:15,938 --> 00:54:17,188
might be better for all parties.
1140
00:54:17,758 --> 00:54:21,508
So you, now you're starting to see
this interdisciplinary teamwork that
1141
00:54:21,508 --> 00:54:23,168
is happening, and I think it's good.
1142
00:54:23,468 --> 00:54:26,368
And then, and some of what came out
of that, especially with the fentanyl
1143
00:54:26,378 --> 00:54:30,078
crisis that started, yeah, at least in
our county, 2017, '18, somewhere around
1144
00:54:30,128 --> 00:54:31,918
that time, it started to escalate.
1145
00:54:31,938 --> 00:54:35,698
And so they embedded an a- an
analyst or at least a law enforcement
1146
00:54:35,728 --> 00:54:39,798
representative within public health,
and it was mostly to keep track of the
1147
00:54:39,798 --> 00:54:44,618
statistics of fentanyl and overdose in
general, but fentanyl was the focus.
1148
00:54:44,698 --> 00:54:46,828
And since we've seen a decline,
now it's gone to general again.
1149
00:54:47,158 --> 00:54:49,878
But but at the time, because we
had this escalation, we were trying
1150
00:54:49,878 --> 00:54:53,428
to keep our finger on the pulse of
what was happening with the fatal
1151
00:54:53,428 --> 00:54:55,378
overdose crisis- … in our area.
1152
00:54:55,688 --> 00:54:58,398
And so now they have direct
access to coroner data,
1153
00:54:58,408 --> 00:54:59,578
because that's what I provide.
1154
00:54:59,578 --> 00:55:00,668
That's part of my MOU.
1155
00:55:00,968 --> 00:55:03,508
I can provide the law enforcement
perspective on things.
1156
00:55:03,538 --> 00:55:08,508
I can also provide a clarity if people
are having issues with law enforcement,
1157
00:55:08,538 --> 00:55:10,378
which I've come across multiple times.
1158
00:55:10,658 --> 00:55:14,448
So I've ha- I've had bi- because of
this interdisciplinary think tank, so
1159
00:55:14,448 --> 00:55:17,378
to speak, if you want, it's called the
Riverside Overdose Data Action Program.
1160
00:55:17,918 --> 00:55:21,328
The Overdose Data Action Program
is gaining speed across, at
1161
00:55:21,328 --> 00:55:23,788
least across California, possibly
across the United States.
1162
00:55:24,138 --> 00:55:27,738
But our version of that is you have
multiple disciplines coming together,
1163
00:55:27,948 --> 00:55:31,718
doing case studies combining data
sets together and doing surveillance
1164
00:55:31,718 --> 00:55:33,158
on what's happening in the county.
1165
00:55:33,408 --> 00:55:37,368
And then if flags are happening within
our data sets, where we see spikes
1166
00:55:37,368 --> 00:55:39,378
in our data, what do we do about it?
1167
00:55:39,428 --> 00:55:41,308
Can we actually put out media campaigns?
1168
00:55:41,308 --> 00:55:45,498
Can we actually go and target ar-
areas of that are the most problematic?
1169
00:55:45,538 --> 00:55:47,258
We can put this on a map geospatially.
1170
00:55:47,458 --> 00:55:50,708
And so it, there's something that
can be done with the data now and I
1171
00:55:50,718 --> 00:55:52,288
have learned that even though I'll…
1172
00:55:52,318 --> 00:55:54,418
Full transparency, I didn't really
wanna be here to begin with.
1173
00:55:54,418 --> 00:55:55,358
I was told to come here.
1174
00:55:55,558 --> 00:55:59,038
I have learned that I can support
and protect and provide for the
1175
00:55:59,038 --> 00:56:01,108
community in this job function.
1176
00:56:01,298 --> 00:56:03,468
It's just, it just looks
differently because in a
1177
00:56:03,468 --> 00:56:04,918
different subset of the community.
1178
00:56:05,128 --> 00:56:09,028
'Cause now we're looking at people who
are suffering from overdose, and also
1179
00:56:09,028 --> 00:56:11,718
the people who are suffering from the
effects of people who are suffering
1180
00:56:11,738 --> 00:56:13,358
from overdose, and that's a whole thing.
1181
00:56:14,088 --> 00:56:14,108
Yeah.
1182
00:56:14,128 --> 00:56:18,498
So, so now you can get the right resources
to the right people to tackle the problem.
1183
00:56:18,548 --> 00:56:21,728
And a lot of good has come out, out
of that as a result because we're
1184
00:56:21,938 --> 00:56:25,668
now inter- interdisciplinary instead
of it just being one or the other.
1185
00:56:25,808 --> 00:56:29,358
Now for full transparency our
RHODA team just had a conversation.
1186
00:56:29,358 --> 00:56:31,638
I won't mention them by name,
but had a, it was a particular
1187
00:56:31,638 --> 00:56:32,528
law enforcement task force.
1188
00:56:32,528 --> 00:56:35,178
They just recently had a
meeting with them and basically
1189
00:56:35,178 --> 00:56:36,558
said, "Look, this is our goal.
1190
00:56:36,678 --> 00:56:38,188
I, we know that this is your goal.
1191
00:56:38,248 --> 00:56:41,008
How can we help each other with our
goals?" And they basically got told,
1192
00:56:41,008 --> 00:56:43,176
"You can't help us with-" with our
goals we don't wanna hear from you.
1193
00:56:43,436 --> 00:56:44,516
Well, that's gonna happen.
1194
00:56:44,546 --> 00:56:45,406
It's gonna happen.
1195
00:56:45,466 --> 00:56:48,736
My goal is to try to break down
silos, but if the other people are not
1196
00:56:48,736 --> 00:56:51,966
breaking down the silo, well, there's
nothing you can do about that other
1197
00:56:51,966 --> 00:56:53,706
than to have crucial conversations.
1198
00:56:53,756 --> 00:56:55,306
"There's nothing we can do to help you?
1199
00:56:55,426 --> 00:56:56,046
What about this?
1200
00:56:56,046 --> 00:56:56,506
What about this?
1201
00:56:56,506 --> 00:56:56,956
What about this?
1202
00:56:56,956 --> 00:56:57,466
What about this?
1203
00:56:57,466 --> 00:56:57,946
What about this?
1204
00:56:57,946 --> 00:57:00,656
What are you guys doing with that?" And
I don't know how forceful they were,
1205
00:57:00,656 --> 00:57:02,316
but I would've been at the meeting.
1206
00:57:02,326 --> 00:57:03,226
I would've challenged them.
1207
00:57:03,546 --> 00:57:03,626
Yeah.
1208
00:57:03,626 --> 00:57:06,546
I said, you can't tell me that this
this task force isn't gonna be helpful
1209
00:57:06,566 --> 00:57:08,886
on some level with your, with this."
1210
00:57:09,326 --> 00:57:09,346
Yeah.
1211
00:57:09,356 --> 00:57:12,576
And so, I get… it's waiting for
the right time to break down the
1212
00:57:12,576 --> 00:57:14,086
silos and to start working together.
1213
00:57:14,086 --> 00:57:18,226
So the silos still exist, but my
whole point is to provide data in an
1214
00:57:18,226 --> 00:57:22,046
interdisciplinary way and to break down
the silos between entities so we can talk.
1215
00:57:22,456 --> 00:57:22,476
Yeah.
1216
00:57:22,486 --> 00:57:24,306
And that's my whole entire
purpose of being there, and
1217
00:57:24,306 --> 00:57:25,266
I think I've done a good job.
1218
00:57:25,266 --> 00:57:29,346
I've been there for four and a half,
going on five years now, and it's next
1219
00:57:29,356 --> 00:57:31,026
to the criminal intelligence unit.
1220
00:57:31,036 --> 00:57:33,356
That's probably my second
favorite assignment so far.
1221
00:57:33,366 --> 00:57:33,386
Yeah.
1222
00:57:33,696 --> 00:57:36,406
And I didn't think I was gonna
say that five years ago, so.
1223
00:57:37,316 --> 00:57:38,396
Two-part question.
1224
00:57:38,466 --> 00:57:41,936
One of the national trends is
how much crime is going down.
1225
00:57:42,276 --> 00:57:43,666
In various aspects.
1226
00:57:43,666 --> 00:57:44,936
Historic lows.
1227
00:57:44,996 --> 00:57:47,386
Jeffrey Asher is, … hot on that trail.
1228
00:57:47,386 --> 00:57:47,616
I'll-
1229
00:57:48,066 --> 00:57:48,376
Yeah
1230
00:57:48,416 --> 00:57:51,526
…
put a plug for him and his podcast
since he's been on the show.
1231
00:57:51,656 --> 00:57:51,856
Yeah.
1232
00:57:51,986 --> 00:57:52,856
So I'm curious.
1233
00:57:52,956 --> 00:57:59,016
Are you s- is Riverside seeing a similar
trend, and how do you see what you're
1234
00:57:59,016 --> 00:58:05,096
doing now, doing this multi-jurisdictional
endeavor into public health,.
1235
00:58:05,116 --> 00:58:08,066
do you feel that's contributing
to the reduction in crime?
1236
00:58:08,186 --> 00:58:12,956
The reduction in crime part of it I'll
have to reserve my opinions, because
1237
00:58:12,966 --> 00:58:16,176
I haven't- … really done traditional
crime analysis, quote-unquote.
1238
00:58:16,186 --> 00:58:18,356
I've been focused more
on the overdose data.
1239
00:58:18,606 --> 00:58:19,806
But I can speak to that.
1240
00:58:19,816 --> 00:58:23,596
There has been a trend downward in
the overdose data a- and that is
1241
00:58:23,596 --> 00:58:27,076
directly due to the interdisciplinary
works between entities.
1242
00:58:27,416 --> 00:58:30,746
In our department, E- EMS has started
the Naloxone Left Behind program.
1243
00:58:30,896 --> 00:58:34,076
We have, we've had surveillance protocols
that we've put in place on what to do.
1244
00:58:34,086 --> 00:58:35,766
It's, like, all of this stuff is in place.
1245
00:58:35,826 --> 00:58:39,456
And so we're definitely seeing this
this downward trend because of this
1246
00:58:39,456 --> 00:58:44,556
interdisciplinary team effort, at least
on the overdose side in my opinion.
1247
00:58:44,866 --> 00:58:48,406
The only component I think that's missing
because it's siloed, and I wish it was
1248
00:58:48,406 --> 00:58:51,626
included, is the DA's office, and I
think they're doing phenomenal work too.
1249
00:58:51,946 --> 00:58:56,626
Our Riverside DA, Mike Hestrin has done
a phenomenal job at prosecuting drug
1250
00:58:56,626 --> 00:59:01,716
distributors , and he, and if he, and
he if he if he can prove that they knew
1251
00:59:01,776 --> 00:59:05,176
the danger of this drug and they still
sold it anyway and somebody died from
1252
00:59:05,176 --> 00:59:06,536
it, well, that's second degree murder.
1253
00:59:06,826 --> 00:59:09,836
And he, and I think that C- Riverside
County was the first to actually start
1254
00:59:09,836 --> 00:59:14,016
that trend, and now a lot of other DAs are
starting to move in that direction too.
1255
00:59:14,286 --> 00:59:17,966
So I think on the law enforcement side
we're dealing with, we're dealing with the
1256
00:59:17,966 --> 00:59:21,786
distribution side of things, and then on
the ROTA public health, behavioral health
1257
00:59:21,786 --> 00:59:26,276
side of things we're deal- we're dealing
with the actual drug user individually.
1258
00:59:26,476 --> 00:59:29,046
And in combination you're
starting to see this decline.
1259
00:59:29,406 --> 00:59:32,606
I'm also full transparency not
going to say that the, that
1260
00:59:32,606 --> 00:59:34,466
there's a there's correlation.
1261
00:59:34,496 --> 00:59:37,166
There's not causation in my opinion
if I can throw that term out.
1262
00:59:37,366 --> 00:59:40,926
There, there's a correlation between
these programs and the decline in crime,
1263
00:59:41,156 --> 00:59:44,146
but if it's a national wide decline,
which is what the CDC the C- Center
1264
00:59:44,146 --> 00:59:46,706
for Di- Disease Control is showing
us, then I don't know whether it's
1265
00:59:46,726 --> 00:59:49,566
these specific programs or it's just
ebbs and flows in what's happening.
1266
00:59:49,866 --> 00:59:53,946
So that's to be determined , and I
would argue that for crime as well.
1267
00:59:53,976 --> 00:59:55,156
You have ebbs and flows.
1268
00:59:55,436 --> 00:59:58,836
But people politically are going to say
it's one thing or another because they
1269
00:59:58,836 --> 01:00:02,856
want, to elevate themself i- politically
and make themself look better, so.
1270
01:00:03,116 --> 01:00:04,606
Yeah … Trump's notorious for doing this.
1271
01:00:04,606 --> 01:00:06,976
You love him or hate him, but
he's notorious for doing this.
1272
01:00:06,976 --> 01:00:10,266
And I would even say even in our
governor's race in California a lot
1273
01:00:10,266 --> 01:00:11,916
of them are doing that same thing, so.
1274
01:00:12,046 --> 01:00:12,276
Yeah.
1275
01:00:12,486 --> 01:00:15,066
And m- and my prediction
is we'll never know
1276
01:00:15,578 --> 01:00:15,888
Yeah.
1277
01:00:15,988 --> 01:00:20,198
There's whole books in terms of the
'80s and the '90s - why crime dropped
1278
01:00:20,198 --> 01:00:22,548
and never was able to pinpoint it.
1279
01:00:22,548 --> 01:00:26,188
And I don't think you're
gonna be able to pinpoint it.
1280
01:00:26,188 --> 01:00:29,868
It's gonna be something like all of
the above or multiple of the above-
1281
01:00:30,018 --> 01:00:30,248
Yeah
1282
01:00:30,288 --> 01:00:31,278
…
type scenario.
1283
01:00:37,289 --> 01:00:41,989
Analysts, LEA Podcast is looking
for volunteer researchers to help
1284
01:00:42,029 --> 01:00:45,250
build a knowledge base for the law
enforcement analysis profession.
1285
01:00:46,169 --> 01:00:49,250
This is a flexible opportunity to
contribute to projects involving
1286
01:00:49,369 --> 01:00:54,989
training, analytical tools, history, and
resources across the analyst profession.
1287
01:00:55,069 --> 01:00:58,649
If you are curious about the profession
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01:00:58,709 --> 01:01:01,029
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1289
01:01:01,409 --> 01:01:05,249
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1290
01:01:05,309 --> 01:01:05,899
bio to LEAPodcasts@gmail.com.
1291
01:01:14,178 --> 01:01:21,748
You mentioned complacency earlier the
idea of you do a job for so long that
1292
01:01:21,918 --> 01:01:26,918
y- you eventually will get complacent,
and a lotta people have come on this
1293
01:01:26,918 --> 01:01:31,408
show and really encourage people
to be lifelong learners and to keep
1294
01:01:31,408 --> 01:01:33,428
learning and keep chugging away.
1295
01:01:33,498 --> 01:01:37,538
So I just wanna give you an
opportunity, from your perspective,
1296
01:01:37,548 --> 01:01:42,818
what is this, avoiding complacency
and continuing to grow look like?
1297
01:01:43,378 --> 01:01:43,668
Yeah.
1298
01:01:43,668 --> 01:01:44,668
I can give you my story.
1299
01:01:44,668 --> 01:01:45,268
Let me start off.
1300
01:01:45,298 --> 01:01:48,788
I am one of those types of people
where I love routine, and when
1301
01:01:48,788 --> 01:01:51,998
the routine works, I am very
hard-pressed to change the routine.
1302
01:01:53,148 --> 01:01:56,428
Because it, that's how you work
efficiently is the synapses in your brain
1303
01:01:56,428 --> 01:01:59,428
work and you know how something works
and you can just do it in your sleep.
1304
01:01:59,738 --> 01:02:03,988
The problem is after a while it becomes
mundane and it becomes redundant.
1305
01:02:04,398 --> 01:02:07,008
And so even though you're
comfortable a- and you're
1306
01:02:07,008 --> 01:02:09,578
effective, you may not be fulfilled.
1307
01:02:09,718 --> 01:02:13,448
And that fulfillment aspect
of it is crucial, especially
1308
01:02:13,448 --> 01:02:14,998
especially the Gen Z generation.
1309
01:02:15,339 --> 01:02:19,789
They really, more so than even Millennials
or Gen X's, are looking for why they're
1310
01:02:19,789 --> 01:02:22,959
doing what they're doing, and if the why
isn't being fulfilled, they have no, no
1311
01:02:22,979 --> 01:02:26,509
problem jumping ship and going from, job
to job to job until they find the why.
1312
01:02:26,519 --> 01:02:31,229
My whole point now is instead of being
complacent embrace the suck or embrace
1313
01:02:31,229 --> 01:02:35,139
the difficulty- … or whatever the case
is, and take on something new that's
1314
01:02:35,139 --> 01:02:39,779
going to challenge you a- and you may not
work efficiently, or it may be growing
1315
01:02:39,779 --> 01:02:43,369
pains of not getting it to work right
away or, I can't tell you when something
1316
01:02:43,369 --> 01:02:46,669
doesn't work right away how many F-bombs
come out of my mouth, it's it's, I don't
1317
01:02:46,679 --> 01:02:51,139
like it, but it's necessary to grow
and evolve and to sharpen yourself.
1318
01:02:51,639 --> 01:02:57,059
I was very fortunate because when Brian
was working for the sheriff's department
1319
01:02:57,059 --> 01:03:00,719
and he was my supervisor, he didn't
allow anyone to become complacent.
1320
01:03:01,989 --> 01:03:05,799
He's, he was always challenging
especially early on in, in my career
1321
01:03:06,139 --> 01:03:10,649
2005 to 2012, '13 or something,
early on in my career a lot of his
1322
01:03:10,669 --> 01:03:13,049
trainings were, "Here's work product.
1323
01:03:13,099 --> 01:03:14,749
Here's what's good and bad about it.
1324
01:03:14,919 --> 01:03:18,339
It's not personal." And some people took
it personal. And I was like- Yeah … I
1325
01:03:18,339 --> 01:03:21,659
don't take it personal. Tell me what sucks
about it so I can fix it and do something
1326
01:03:21,669 --> 01:03:26,169
better," but it forced me to become a
better person, a better analyst, and to
1327
01:03:26,169 --> 01:03:28,249
look at things differently than I was.
1328
01:03:29,241 --> 01:03:32,261
In order to communicate better,
network better, become a better
1329
01:03:32,261 --> 01:03:35,481
analyst, analyze better, use
different systems, whatever it was.
1330
01:03:35,711 --> 01:03:38,481
We're in that at least for our
department, we're in that stage right
1331
01:03:38,481 --> 01:03:40,141
now where we're making the evolution.
1332
01:03:40,141 --> 01:03:41,941
We're always five steps
behind, unfortunately.
1333
01:03:41,941 --> 01:03:45,291
But we're making this this
evolution from Esri, which is the
1334
01:03:45,301 --> 01:03:48,051
big mapping company that a lot
of people use for their mapping.
1335
01:03:48,311 --> 01:03:53,311
We're evolving from the the desktop
version, ArcMap, to ArcGIS Pro,
1336
01:03:53,551 --> 01:03:55,121
which is a web-based system.
1337
01:03:55,521 --> 01:03:59,591
Well, everything that, that we had set
up and all of our tools and that were
1338
01:03:59,591 --> 01:04:03,381
set up for ArcGIS Desktop are going away.
1339
01:04:03,521 --> 01:04:06,861
We have to r- either rebuild them, work
with people who can build new ones.
1340
01:04:07,071 --> 01:04:09,581
We have to learn new systems
on how to import data.
1341
01:04:09,761 --> 01:04:11,281
Is it geocoding properly?
1342
01:04:11,281 --> 01:04:13,011
Are the dots in the
right place, so to speak?
1343
01:04:13,361 --> 01:04:15,911
It's a completely different
change in what we're doing.
1344
01:04:15,961 --> 01:04:18,421
And we're in that boat right
now where it's like, what
1345
01:04:18,421 --> 01:04:19,501
are you gonna do with that?
1346
01:04:19,661 --> 01:04:22,631
Are you going to embrace it, or are
you just not gonna do GIS anymore?
1347
01:04:23,261 --> 01:04:26,891
That's a great example of you have,
you have to change with the times
1348
01:04:26,931 --> 01:04:30,971
sometimes, and then sometimes just take on
challenges to keep your skill sets in up.
1349
01:04:31,231 --> 01:04:33,541
It's one of the reasons why I love
teaching, because students will
1350
01:04:33,541 --> 01:04:35,941
come to me and be like, "I have
this problem. What do I do with it?"
1351
01:04:36,291 --> 01:04:37,871
Ooh, I've never had that problem before.
1352
01:04:37,881 --> 01:04:38,651
Let me research it.
1353
01:04:38,661 --> 01:04:42,451
It's… Now I have to use ano-
another neurotransmitter connection
1354
01:04:42,451 --> 01:04:43,831
in my head to try to solve a problem.
1355
01:04:44,111 --> 01:04:48,621
So I, I would argue that after Brian left,
I now have a much more difficult time
1356
01:04:48,621 --> 01:04:51,011
doing that on my own, because he drove me.
1357
01:04:51,291 --> 01:04:55,081
We drove each other, he was a great
supervisor, and I would come to him and
1358
01:04:55,081 --> 01:04:57,431
say, "Well, what about this?" And that
would challenge him to do something.
1359
01:04:57,431 --> 01:04:59,741
And he would say, "What about this?" And
that would challenge me to do something.
1360
01:05:00,001 --> 01:05:02,631
If you don't have somebody like
that in your life, try to get one
1361
01:05:03,051 --> 01:05:04,331
'cause it's good accountability.
1362
01:05:04,571 --> 01:05:08,487
But if you don't It's you have to
try to do that for yourself or put
1363
01:05:08,487 --> 01:05:12,447
the systems in place to be learning
consistently so that you don't become
1364
01:05:12,447 --> 01:05:14,727
complacent and get stuck in a rut, so.
1365
01:05:14,767 --> 01:05:15,087
Yeah.
1366
01:05:15,367 --> 01:05:19,927
And I bashed my 20 year-old
version- … of myself.
1367
01:05:19,927 --> 01:05:22,687
I'll, I'm gonna bash my
current version of myself-
1368
01:05:22,927 --> 01:05:27,717
because I think there are several
examples where I have become complacent,
1369
01:05:27,737 --> 01:05:32,487
and I realize that the 20-year-old
version of me would've been more
1370
01:05:32,487 --> 01:05:37,227
competitive , and more willing to climb
that ladder or , overcome that obstacle.
1371
01:05:37,287 --> 01:05:37,387
Yeah.
1372
01:05:37,407 --> 01:05:43,487
Whereas now I pick and choose and I
feel if you have a team where you still
1373
01:05:43,487 --> 01:05:49,567
have that competitive spirit of being
able to feed off one another and to
1374
01:05:49,567 --> 01:05:53,737
compete with one another, friendly of
course, within the rules of course.
1375
01:05:54,377 --> 01:05:54,397
Yeah.
1376
01:05:54,407 --> 01:06:00,007
But, I've been with the teams where
we were all equally complacent.
1377
01:06:00,007 --> 01:06:04,857
And so this idea of trying to
challenge us to compete with one
1378
01:06:04,857 --> 01:06:06,677
another just totally fell flat
1379
01:06:07,397 --> 01:06:07,727
Yeah
1380
01:06:08,437 --> 01:06:13,157
…
didn't work at all because we were all in
our, later in the stages and not willing
1381
01:06:13,157 --> 01:06:15,227
to be as competitive as we all were-
1382
01:06:16,237 --> 01:06:16,317
when we were 25
1383
01:06:16,911 --> 01:06:19,141
Yeah, well, and there's risk to
that, and you have to weigh that.
1384
01:06:19,141 --> 01:06:21,941
I mean- Yeah … the risk is are you
being challenged in your current job?
1385
01:06:21,941 --> 01:06:23,731
Does it mean that you might
have to look for something else
1386
01:06:23,731 --> 01:06:24,781
where you are being challenged?
1387
01:06:24,791 --> 01:06:27,241
I mean- Yeah … these are all risks
that you have to weigh, and they're
1388
01:06:27,481 --> 01:06:33,011
again, i- in my situation, I can speak
from 21 years, 22 years of experience
1389
01:06:33,021 --> 01:06:36,671
that when you start getting complacent,
you are incredibly comfortable and
1390
01:06:36,671 --> 01:06:39,091
you're incredibly efficient, but
you're not necessarily fulfilled
1391
01:06:39,091 --> 01:06:41,431
and you're not necessarily happy
because you're not being challenged.
1392
01:06:41,861 --> 01:06:46,151
And, a- and so it doesn't matter how good
you are, if you're not being challenged
1393
01:06:46,151 --> 01:06:49,191
or you don't feel like you're making
a difference within the domain, you're
1394
01:06:49,191 --> 01:06:50,871
more inclined to be, like, depressed.
1395
01:06:50,871 --> 01:06:52,711
You're more inclined to
be, i- to be unhappy.
1396
01:06:52,971 --> 01:06:54,971
And that spills over into relationships.
1397
01:06:54,981 --> 01:06:57,151
It's, i- it's a s- it's a spiral problem.
1398
01:06:57,301 --> 01:06:59,581
It's not just w- at work it's everywhere.
1399
01:07:00,001 --> 01:07:04,271
So m- my challenge, not only for myself
but for other people, is j- just embrace
1400
01:07:04,271 --> 01:07:07,631
the suck if you don't like change,
and know that change is inevitable and
1401
01:07:07,631 --> 01:07:09,841
just do it because jump in two feet.
1402
01:07:09,931 --> 01:07:13,981
Make the decision to jump in two feet and
take on the challenge whatever that might
1403
01:07:13,981 --> 01:07:16,851
be, it's just- … just choose something
that you have a passion about, that you
1404
01:07:16,851 --> 01:07:21,041
wanna learn, that you don't know or you
wanna learn more about and, or become
1405
01:07:21,041 --> 01:07:24,071
better at, and then jump into it with
both feet and start the learning process.
1406
01:07:24,121 --> 01:07:27,451
And by the way, on a side note,
ChatGPT and other AI platforms
1407
01:07:27,451 --> 01:07:31,051
make it incredibly easier than
when I was coming up 21 years ago.
1408
01:07:31,201 --> 01:07:33,771
Because if you don't know how to do
something, you just ask a generative
1409
01:07:33,771 --> 01:07:36,771
AI program, "Hey, how do I do this?"
And it tells you how to do it.
1410
01:07:36,771 --> 01:07:39,481
I can't tell you how many times
I've learned like I don't remember
1411
01:07:39,481 --> 01:07:40,681
how to do this in Photoshop.
1412
01:07:40,941 --> 01:07:41,751
How do you do this in Photoshop?
1413
01:07:41,751 --> 01:07:44,141
ChatGBT- Yeah … and
it'll tell you what to do.
1414
01:07:44,371 --> 01:07:48,581
So I, I would argue that even AI is making
it easier to learn new things now, too.
1415
01:07:48,581 --> 01:07:51,041
So no excuses is I guess my message.
1416
01:07:51,071 --> 01:07:53,221
Well, I don't know if I learn them.
1417
01:07:53,221 --> 01:07:56,821
I know that I know where to go next
time because I probably didn't learn it.
1418
01:07:56,821 --> 01:08:00,381
I'll probably still need the
recipe from ChatGPT the next- Yeah
1419
01:08:00,391 --> 01:08:01,461
time I need it, right?
1420
01:08:01,631 --> 01:08:05,481
But speaking of change and
reinventing yourself and you've
1421
01:08:05,481 --> 01:08:10,501
talked through this interview about
being well-rounded and various stops
1422
01:08:10,501 --> 01:08:13,221
around Riverside Sheriff's Department.
1423
01:08:13,491 --> 01:08:15,721
I wanna talk a little bit
about change in leadership.
1424
01:08:15,781 --> 01:08:20,731
So when you get a new sheriff or maybe
you get a new executive, that impact
1425
01:08:20,891 --> 01:08:23,721
on the analyst and the analytical unit.
1426
01:08:23,881 --> 01:08:24,151
Yeah.
1427
01:08:24,151 --> 01:08:27,441
I was blessed early on in my
career where I had… I mentioned
1428
01:08:27,441 --> 01:08:29,231
Lieutenant Orgis Kent Orgis.
1429
01:08:29,441 --> 01:08:33,841
I had incredible people within the
criminal intelligence unit who cared
1430
01:08:33,841 --> 01:08:35,961
about me as a non-sworn analyst.
1431
01:08:35,961 --> 01:08:38,501
And for those who don't know what
non-sworn is someone without a
1432
01:08:38,501 --> 01:08:40,681
badge and a gun who's a civilian
who's helping law enforcement.
1433
01:08:40,701 --> 01:08:41,921
That's what non-sworn means.
1434
01:08:42,281 --> 01:08:44,501
The… I know a lo- I'll
digress for a second.
1435
01:08:44,531 --> 01:08:48,641
There is some, in some cases, a big divide
between sworn officers and non-sworn
1436
01:08:48,641 --> 01:08:50,661
civilian assi- assist- assisted help.
1437
01:08:51,211 --> 01:08:53,091
And it's something you have to overcome.
1438
01:08:53,381 --> 01:08:57,031
People who are veterans or have law
enforcement or have family in law
1439
01:08:57,031 --> 01:08:59,951
enforcement have an easier time with
this 'cause they understand the domain.
1440
01:08:59,951 --> 01:09:03,841
So if you have a veteran coming into a law
enforcement as an analyst they relate on
1441
01:09:03,841 --> 01:09:07,191
a military level with these people 'cause
the sworn side of things is paramilitary.
1442
01:09:08,071 --> 01:09:10,731
But if you have civilians that are
walking into that, you don't know what
1443
01:09:10,731 --> 01:09:11,901
it's like to carry a badge and a gun.
1444
01:09:11,901 --> 01:09:14,221
You don't know what it's like
to have my back or to be with me
1445
01:09:14,221 --> 01:09:15,481
in a shootout or whatever it is.
1446
01:09:15,771 --> 01:09:17,721
So they build camaraderie really quick.
1447
01:09:18,721 --> 01:09:23,921
And so it's sometimes there's this divide
between sworn and non-sworn where you
1448
01:09:23,921 --> 01:09:28,401
have to where you have to win them over,
so to speak, or prove your value to them.
1449
01:09:28,671 --> 01:09:31,211
I have stories where I've
had to do this many times.
1450
01:09:31,531 --> 01:09:35,641
And I would argue that anytime you have
a change in leadership, this happens.
1451
01:09:35,681 --> 01:09:38,611
M- the one thing that Brian Gray
taught me and the one thing that I have
1452
01:09:38,611 --> 01:09:42,541
learned in my career, even in my own
experience, is marketing is everything.
1453
01:09:42,951 --> 01:09:46,521
It… I wish, I almost wish in hindsight
I had been a criminal justice major and a
1454
01:09:46,521 --> 01:09:49,111
marketing minor, or something like that.
1455
01:09:49,351 --> 01:09:49,371
Yeah.
1456
01:09:49,401 --> 01:09:52,801
Because in this domain, you have to
market yourself because the average
1457
01:09:52,811 --> 01:09:54,771
officer doesn't know what you do.
1458
01:09:54,821 --> 01:09:58,381
The average administrator,
sworn administrator, doesn't
1459
01:09:58,391 --> 01:10:00,391
know what you do necessarily.
1460
01:10:00,531 --> 01:10:01,761
There are exceptions to this.
1461
01:10:01,761 --> 01:10:04,791
We had one lieutenant, it's a
politically tenuous thing, so
1462
01:10:04,791 --> 01:10:05,611
I won't give him a shout-out.
1463
01:10:05,901 --> 01:10:08,981
But we had one lieutenant, he ended
up becoming an assistant sheriff and
1464
01:10:08,981 --> 01:10:12,161
then retired and vacated with the
change of our sheriff's administration.
1465
01:10:12,491 --> 01:10:15,691
, When he was a lieutenant,
he walked in to our office.
1466
01:10:15,721 --> 01:10:18,061
I overheard some of this, but
he was talking with Brian.
1467
01:10:18,061 --> 01:10:22,291
He basically said, "I'm supposed to
be in, in charge of your unit, and I
1468
01:10:22,301 --> 01:10:25,251
have absolutely no idea what you guys
do except for the little stuff that
1469
01:10:25,251 --> 01:10:27,051
I've seen analysts do within my career.
1470
01:10:27,421 --> 01:10:31,397
School me up on what I'm supposed
to do." And Brian turned around and
1471
01:10:31,397 --> 01:10:33,237
said, "Well, it," and schooled him up.
1472
01:10:33,307 --> 01:10:35,527
This is a 45-minute conversation
or an hour conversation.
1473
01:10:35,527 --> 01:10:38,447
He could probably elaborate, but and
then at the end of it, he was this
1474
01:10:38,447 --> 01:10:42,967
lieutenant was so excited about the
i- ideas of how to use crime analysis,
1475
01:10:42,967 --> 01:10:44,317
'cause he was our biggest supporter.
1476
01:10:44,637 --> 01:10:46,457
He turned and said, "How can I learn
more about it?" He's "There's a
1477
01:10:46,457 --> 01:10:50,147
whole certificate program on this,
LT." The lieutenant, out of his own
1478
01:10:50,147 --> 01:10:53,397
money, paid $8,000 and put himself
through the certificate program.
1479
01:10:53,417 --> 01:10:53,797
Oh.
1480
01:10:54,387 --> 01:10:57,247
I have never seen that
from any other leader ever.
1481
01:10:57,257 --> 01:10:57,277
Yeah.
1482
01:10:57,867 --> 01:10:59,557
It's only happened once in my career.
1483
01:10:59,967 --> 01:11:02,607
And so when he came back in,
he's "This is really cool.
1484
01:11:02,697 --> 01:11:03,627
I have ideas.
1485
01:11:03,627 --> 01:11:07,687
Let's talk." And a lot of the
innovations came from that collaboration
1486
01:11:07,687 --> 01:11:09,287
between that lieutenant and Brian.
1487
01:11:09,437 --> 01:11:12,757
As soon as that lieutenant left and
someone else came in Everything changed.
1488
01:11:12,797 --> 01:11:15,007
We didn't have the support
of administration anymore.
1489
01:11:15,197 --> 01:11:16,697
We had to get buy off all over again.
1490
01:11:16,727 --> 01:11:18,547
We had to market ourselves all over again.
1491
01:11:18,837 --> 01:11:22,297
So this change the… I would say
one of the most difficult challenges
1492
01:11:22,307 --> 01:11:26,117
for analysts, and especially those
in executive positions, if you're a
1493
01:11:26,117 --> 01:11:29,707
supervisor or you're a senior analyst
or in a lead position is when you
1494
01:11:29,717 --> 01:11:33,827
have changes of of administration,
understanding what they value.
1495
01:11:34,027 --> 01:11:37,277
Is it the same thing that you
used to value, or is it different?
1496
01:11:37,347 --> 01:11:39,887
And then having a, having
an honest conversation, if
1497
01:11:39,887 --> 01:11:42,607
possible, 'cause sometimes the
conversation isn't always possible.
1498
01:11:42,807 --> 01:11:44,387
They just want you to
jump when they say jump.
1499
01:11:44,637 --> 01:11:47,537
But if you can have a conversation
that's "Here's what we can offer.
1500
01:11:47,647 --> 01:11:49,707
Here's what you're saying, which
is all good, but here's what we
1501
01:11:49,707 --> 01:11:51,027
can offer that you're not saying.
1502
01:11:51,037 --> 01:11:55,627
Is any of this valuable to you?" And then
try to market them with a conversation.
1503
01:11:55,937 --> 01:12:00,197
If you have people that don't do that
in your executive staff, then you
1504
01:12:00,207 --> 01:12:03,487
have people pushing what they think
should be happening, and it might be
1505
01:12:03,487 --> 01:12:06,297
in an entirely different direction
of what you originally signed up for.
1506
01:12:06,517 --> 01:12:08,827
And that has happened
several times in my career.
1507
01:12:09,147 --> 01:12:11,897
And so I have to go back
now to the micro level.
1508
01:12:11,967 --> 01:12:16,527
What can I do to maintain what I signed
up for and why I was here, and at
1509
01:12:16,527 --> 01:12:19,237
least in my little assignment, even
if they're not gonna do it at that
1510
01:12:19,237 --> 01:12:21,467
level, at the 50,000-foot-view level.
1511
01:12:21,857 --> 01:12:24,547
And so that's what I've had to
learn, like when Brian left and
1512
01:12:24,547 --> 01:12:28,737
we have a new s- supervisor again,
arguably not as experienced, di-
1513
01:12:28,807 --> 01:12:30,377
didn't have the same knowledge base.
1514
01:12:30,377 --> 01:12:33,367
There was no cross-training before
one, one took over and the other left.
1515
01:12:33,637 --> 01:12:39,647
So now if we're gonna automate programs
that Brian created, or if it breaks, how
1516
01:12:39,647 --> 01:12:42,027
do you fix it, or what's the new normal?
1517
01:12:42,197 --> 01:12:44,697
And and is it even a
value or does it go away?
1518
01:12:44,807 --> 01:12:47,387
All of that becomes a
marketing issue at this point.
1519
01:12:47,897 --> 01:12:51,667
So I would say anytime you have changes
in leadership, you have to market
1520
01:12:51,667 --> 01:12:55,567
yourself to the new leadership and
w- and try to win them over as best
1521
01:12:55,567 --> 01:12:58,707
as possible, or you're just gonna
be miserable being told what to do.
1522
01:12:59,237 --> 01:13:02,317
And oftentimes what you're being told
to do is not what you signed up for.
1523
01:13:02,677 --> 01:13:05,477
And I can't tell you how many
people have actually vacated their
1524
01:13:05,477 --> 01:13:06,877
position and said I'm just done.
1525
01:13:06,907 --> 01:13:09,807
I'm going somewhere else 'cause I can't
deal with this." But . before you get
1526
01:13:09,807 --> 01:13:13,507
to that place everything possible to
try to win over the administration or at
1527
01:13:13,507 --> 01:13:16,764
least have an honest conversation to get
them on board with what you're thinking.
1528
01:13:16,814 --> 01:13:20,394
I just wanted to present the changes
of leadership is always going to be an
1529
01:13:20,394 --> 01:13:21,964
ongoing challenge if you're in this domain
1530
01:13:22,043 --> 01:13:25,533
We've talked about it a couple times
on this show because there's this idea,
1531
01:13:25,533 --> 01:13:28,853
especially with middle management when
you're talking about either captains
1532
01:13:28,853 --> 01:13:34,413
or majors within a department, rotating
them through so they're well-rounded.
1533
01:13:34,423 --> 01:13:39,673
If you're part of a unit, a constant
unit, then you're, "Oh, we gotta teach
1534
01:13:39,673 --> 01:13:43,893
the captain or major what we do." And
it's just one of those things that it
1535
01:13:44,033 --> 01:13:49,233
comes through every once in a while, and
it is a little bit of constant change.
1536
01:13:49,263 --> 01:13:55,103
But I think this also dovetails nicely
into another topic I wanna talk about,
1537
01:13:55,123 --> 01:13:59,993
is the analyst as a leader even though
they might not have the leadership title.
1538
01:14:00,003 --> 01:14:00,023
Yeah.
1539
01:14:00,133 --> 01:14:07,193
And just being able, as a leader to,
demonstrate to deal with the cards
1540
01:14:07,193 --> 01:14:09,773
that they're dealt- Yeah … for
lack of better terms there.
1541
01:14:09,773 --> 01:14:12,183
So I just wanted to give an
opportunity a- again, to give
1542
01:14:12,193 --> 01:14:13,733
your perspective on that topic.
1543
01:14:14,333 --> 01:14:14,593
Yeah.
1544
01:14:14,593 --> 01:14:18,113
L- leadership is something that , is
a passion of mine and it's something
1545
01:14:18,113 --> 01:14:23,053
that I really started learning more
and more about in roughly 2012 or '13.
1546
01:14:23,493 --> 01:14:27,793
I've mentioned him previously in this
podcast, but if you, if the listeners
1547
01:14:27,793 --> 01:14:32,983
have not had a chance to listen to Simon
Sinek, I would highly recommend him.
1548
01:14:33,113 --> 01:14:36,353
I- in conjunction with S-
Stephen Bartlett, he's a UK guy.
1549
01:14:36,353 --> 01:14:40,193
He has a p- he has a YouTube channel
called Diary of a CEO, and he just
1550
01:14:40,193 --> 01:14:44,993
has conversations with people about
a wide variety of different topics.
1551
01:14:45,033 --> 01:14:48,973
But Simon, including leadership but
Simon Sinek was really the person who
1552
01:14:48,973 --> 01:14:51,083
changed my mind with regard to leadership.
1553
01:14:51,143 --> 01:14:56,113
M- my idea of leadership when I was
probably early 20s to early 30s was you
1554
01:14:56,113 --> 01:14:59,633
have to lead from the front line with
the sword in your hand, ch- leading the
1555
01:14:59,633 --> 01:15:03,473
charge, first into battle and bring,
bringing everybody along with you.
1556
01:15:03,673 --> 01:15:07,563
I have learned that is not necessarily
the definition of leadership.
1557
01:15:07,703 --> 01:15:10,933
The definition of leadership
is not being in charge.
1558
01:15:11,143 --> 01:15:13,753
As Simon Sinek says, it's taking
care of people in your charge.
1559
01:15:14,103 --> 01:15:17,553
And you can do that whether you
have the title or whether you don't.
1560
01:15:17,943 --> 01:15:19,213
I'll give you case in point.
1561
01:15:19,263 --> 01:15:22,063
Like Brian was a great example of
taking care of people in his charge.
1562
01:15:22,213 --> 01:15:26,813
When what he did in order to market our
unit was he would take the successes of
1563
01:15:26,813 --> 01:15:30,273
everybody else and he would collate it
into a report and then show the sheriff
1564
01:15:30,273 --> 01:15:33,993
and say, "Look what we're doing. I didn't
do this. My people did this." Yeah.
1565
01:15:33,993 --> 01:15:38,603
And by the way, and this is what we could
be doing if we had four more bodies.
1566
01:15:38,803 --> 01:15:41,113
That's how he marketed
himself and grew the unit.
1567
01:15:41,733 --> 01:15:45,663
And s- but he never said I did this
for them," or it's, "They're doing
1568
01:15:45,663 --> 01:15:47,303
this because of me." It was never me.
1569
01:15:47,513 --> 01:15:51,283
It was, "I taught them what they needed
to know. They did it. They s- they rose
1570
01:15:51,313 --> 01:15:55,193
to the occasion and they were successful."
And then when crap went wrong this analyst
1571
01:15:55,193 --> 01:15:58,513
over here said something, did something,
put something out that was wrong.
1572
01:15:58,763 --> 01:16:00,613
Brian, why aren't you
training this person?
1573
01:16:00,613 --> 01:16:02,273
They're also the first
on the chopping block."
1574
01:16:02,743 --> 01:16:02,933
Yeah.
1575
01:16:03,593 --> 01:16:07,213
So the leadership position is not
taking credit for any of the s-
1576
01:16:07,213 --> 01:16:10,193
successes and taking full credit
for all of the all of the losses.
1577
01:16:10,633 --> 01:16:12,063
But that's part of leadership.
1578
01:16:12,063 --> 01:16:14,363
It's part of the, of what
it is to be a leader.
1579
01:16:14,623 --> 01:16:18,303
We have even now analysts within
our unit that are not seniors,
1580
01:16:18,303 --> 01:16:23,371
they're not supervisors And they are
creating systems for themselves to to
1581
01:16:23,421 --> 01:16:25,151
handle requests that are coming in.
1582
01:16:25,451 --> 01:16:27,871
And then when other people have
that same requests, they're
1583
01:16:27,871 --> 01:16:29,371
like I don't know what to do.
1584
01:16:29,371 --> 01:16:31,851
Do you have anything to help?" And she's
the first to jump in, said, "Hey, I just
1585
01:16:31,851 --> 01:16:33,771
created a system that might work for you.
1586
01:16:33,771 --> 01:16:37,011
Try this." And then when they're
successful, she doesn't take credit for
1587
01:16:37,011 --> 01:16:38,421
it. She's "Use it for your purposes.
1588
01:16:38,421 --> 01:16:38,861
Change it.
1589
01:16:38,871 --> 01:16:42,251
What- do whatever you want." So e-
even at the crime analysis level,
1590
01:16:42,251 --> 01:16:46,451
you have an analyst who is what I
would argue to be a better leader
1591
01:16:46,461 --> 01:16:49,491
sometimes than the manager because
the perception is that should've been
1592
01:16:49,491 --> 01:16:51,171
coming from the manager pos- position.
1593
01:16:51,601 --> 01:16:54,511
But when it doesn't, you don't
have to be a manager to be a good
1594
01:16:54,511 --> 01:16:56,811
leader and take care of people
to your left and to your right.
1595
01:16:57,141 --> 01:17:00,231
And so I've learned a lot about
leadership over time, and I've
1596
01:17:00,231 --> 01:17:02,881
learned that leadership doesn't
necessarily need a title.
1597
01:17:03,101 --> 01:17:07,251
You just need to have a heart for people
and a heart for your co- coworkers to
1598
01:17:07,251 --> 01:17:09,821
ha- to basically help them be successful.
1599
01:17:09,831 --> 01:17:12,561
So, leadership is not
necessarily from the front.
1600
01:17:12,561 --> 01:17:14,751
It can be from the back, and it
can be in a support s- setting.
1601
01:17:14,961 --> 01:17:15,251
Nice.
1602
01:17:15,331 --> 01:17:15,611
All right,
1603
01:17:15,611 --> 01:17:18,501
so let's talk about LEIU now.
1604
01:17:18,791 --> 01:17:24,781
From my own perspective, the only
way I know LEIU is that they partner
1605
01:17:24,781 --> 01:17:28,371
with IALEIA for their conference.
1606
01:17:29,081 --> 01:17:34,661
So for those that may not be familiar,
analysts listening to this and maybe
1607
01:17:34,661 --> 01:17:42,341
really unfamiliar with LEIU, let's
talk about LEIU and what their goal
1608
01:17:42,361 --> 01:17:45,001
is with different police departments
1609
01:17:45,121 --> 01:17:48,431
Yeah, so LEIU and IALEIA
partner… maybe I'll start from
1610
01:17:48,431 --> 01:17:49,771
the beginning on defining terms.
1611
01:17:50,011 --> 01:17:53,761
IALEIA is is an individual
analyst's membership.
1612
01:17:53,771 --> 01:17:59,031
So anyone can sign up, pay individually
as an analyst, sign up with IALEIA, pay a
1613
01:17:59,031 --> 01:18:00,731
membership due, become a member of IALEIA.
1614
01:18:02,091 --> 01:18:03,921
LEIU is a department membership.
1615
01:18:04,231 --> 01:18:06,041
It's not an individual membership.
1616
01:18:06,231 --> 01:18:09,531
So the Riverside County Sheriff's
Department as a whole, if
1617
01:18:09,531 --> 01:18:13,811
they buy into LEIU, the entire
department is now a member of LEIU.
1618
01:18:13,821 --> 01:18:15,921
Now it comes down to what is LEIU?
1619
01:18:16,201 --> 01:18:20,951
What is the value for me personally
LEIU in particular has been a
1620
01:18:20,961 --> 01:18:23,081
great value in several regards.
1621
01:18:23,081 --> 01:18:26,251
Number one, they partner with IALEIA
to do annual conferences every year.
1622
01:18:26,521 --> 01:18:29,811
They historically have been, ha-
have been the ones who have pulled
1623
01:18:29,811 --> 01:18:32,971
in the trainers, the people who
have tr- who have been training.
1624
01:18:33,321 --> 01:18:37,761
And it was oftentimes focused on
the intelligence domain more so
1625
01:18:37,761 --> 01:18:39,151
than the crime analysis domain.
1626
01:18:39,601 --> 01:18:45,541
LEIU also wrote their own guidelines,
which basically took 28 CFR 2320,
1627
01:18:45,541 --> 01:18:48,751
which is the Code of Federal Re-
Regulations, and went into far more
1628
01:18:48,751 --> 01:18:51,901
detail about what people should be
doing within their intelligence units.
1629
01:18:52,321 --> 01:18:56,891
And single-handedly, the LEIU policy
and procedure for t- for how to
1630
01:18:56,891 --> 01:19:00,761
run an intelligence unit became
the policy and procedure for our
1631
01:19:00,761 --> 01:19:02,671
intelligence unit when we wrote our own.
1632
01:19:03,211 --> 01:19:07,061
We would've had no idea even where to
start or how to even interpret 28 CFR
1633
01:19:07,061 --> 01:19:10,891
because it's so robust, and it's legalese,
and it's really hard to understand.
1634
01:19:11,121 --> 01:19:14,821
LEIU brought it down to something that the
locals could understand, less legalese,
1635
01:19:14,821 --> 01:19:16,151
and something that you can implement.
1636
01:19:16,431 --> 01:19:20,071
And so i- if you ha- if you are in an
intelligence unit right now, I highly
1637
01:19:20,071 --> 01:19:23,881
recommend looking at LEIU's guidelines
for running an intelligence unit
1638
01:19:23,891 --> 01:19:26,931
because it should be your policy and
procedure for how you run your unit.
1639
01:19:27,201 --> 01:19:29,791
It will keep you out of a lot
of trouble because they tell you
1640
01:19:29,941 --> 01:19:33,641
what to do and what not to do more
importantly- … with information.
1641
01:19:34,051 --> 01:19:37,331
And I will digress and say I think
I can say this 'cause it's public
1642
01:19:37,331 --> 01:19:40,291
knowledge now, but Denver PD got
themself in a lot of trouble probably
1643
01:19:40,291 --> 01:19:41,781
a d- a decade and a half ago.
1644
01:19:42,071 --> 01:19:45,031
They had stuff in their intelligence
database that should not have been there.
1645
01:19:45,231 --> 01:19:46,251
Somebody found out.
1646
01:19:46,251 --> 01:19:47,061
They challenged it.
1647
01:19:47,071 --> 01:19:47,891
They got sued.
1648
01:19:47,921 --> 01:19:50,441
They had to open up all of their
intelligence files to everybody.
1649
01:19:50,581 --> 01:19:51,341
It was bad.
1650
01:19:51,491 --> 01:19:52,591
It was really bad.
1651
01:19:53,211 --> 01:19:57,261
So now every year from that point
forward, they hire LEIU to come in
1652
01:19:57,261 --> 01:19:59,471
to audit their logs and make sure
they're doing what they need to do.
1653
01:19:59,531 --> 01:20:00,681
They don't need to do it anymore.
1654
01:20:00,791 --> 01:20:04,131
They do it on purpose to make sure that
they don't get in that situation again.
1655
01:20:04,141 --> 01:20:07,861
It's le- less costly to bring in an
auditor than it is to pay a lawsuit.
1656
01:20:08,641 --> 01:20:08,661
Yeah.
1657
01:20:08,701 --> 01:20:12,911
So, so I highly recommend not to be
in Denver PD's position and to have
1658
01:20:12,911 --> 01:20:16,251
policy and procedure together on how
you're gonna run your intelligence
1659
01:20:16,251 --> 01:20:19,041
unit, and I would say that's probably
one of the biggest things that they
1660
01:20:19,041 --> 01:20:24,405
did and then obviously they have local
and regional points of contact as well.
1661
01:20:24,405 --> 01:20:26,465
So at the time I was very lucky.
1662
01:20:26,465 --> 01:20:27,825
Brian was that for us.
1663
01:20:28,195 --> 01:20:30,845
He was… I think he was the
Southwest Regional whatever their
1664
01:20:30,845 --> 01:20:32,715
title is, director, so forth.
1665
01:20:33,175 --> 01:20:37,355
And so anytime anybody had any questions
about the intelligence domain in the
1666
01:20:37,355 --> 01:20:40,420
local area, they had a point of contact
to reach out to and say, "Hey, if w- I
1667
01:20:40,420 --> 01:20:42,380
have this scenario what would you do?"
1668
01:20:42,390 --> 01:20:47,010
Or how should I proceed?" And so having
that domain… people in those positions
1669
01:20:47,010 --> 01:20:49,850
with that domain knowledge that you can
tap into and say, "How should I be able
1670
01:20:49,850 --> 01:20:52,210
to do this?" I think is invaluable.
1671
01:20:52,220 --> 01:20:56,680
And and so LEIU has provided a lot
of benefit, not only to the Riverside
1672
01:20:56,680 --> 01:20:59,500
Sheriff's Department, but to me
personally when I was in the criminal
1673
01:20:59,500 --> 01:21:01,680
intelligence unit over, over time.
1674
01:21:01,760 --> 01:21:05,160
So if some… if people don't
know what the LEIU is that's
1675
01:21:05,160 --> 01:21:06,660
what LEIU is in a nutshell.
1676
01:21:07,000 --> 01:21:07,020
Yeah.
1677
01:21:07,120 --> 01:21:10,760
And they partner with IALEIA just because
IALEIA can bring in the numbers, and
1678
01:21:10,770 --> 01:21:13,810
LEIU generally brought in the training,
the the adequate training that you
1679
01:21:13,810 --> 01:21:15,730
would see during the annual conferences.
1680
01:21:16,080 --> 01:21:16,330
Yeah.
1681
01:21:16,630 --> 01:21:20,250
And so, and for the listeners if you
work for a department, check out-
1682
01:21:20,250 --> 01:21:24,080
Yeah … to see if you're partners,
… if you're signed up for LEIU.
1683
01:21:24,520 --> 01:21:27,940
And if you're not, consider,
making the case to join.
1684
01:21:27,980 --> 01:21:31,320
Yeah … I'll make sure I put a
link in the show notes for more
1685
01:21:31,320 --> 01:21:33,610
information on LEIU and how to join.
1686
01:21:33,810 --> 01:21:33,960
Okay.
1687
01:21:34,300 --> 01:21:36,240
All right, so let's
move on to advice then.
1688
01:21:36,240 --> 01:21:40,520
I know you've already given advice here
and there throughout this interview,
1689
01:21:40,530 --> 01:21:43,910
but is there additional advice that
you would have for our listeners?
1690
01:21:44,040 --> 01:21:46,160
Yeah, just to reiterate,
networking is key.
1691
01:21:46,290 --> 01:21:49,110
Y- you can't do your job without
networking with other people.
1692
01:21:49,320 --> 01:21:52,800
Not only to understand how you're supposed
to handle certain requests that might
1693
01:21:52,800 --> 01:21:56,540
come in, if, especially if you're new
in the domain but also to information
1694
01:21:56,540 --> 01:21:59,090
share, too, 'cause crime doesn't
just stick within your jurisdiction.
1695
01:21:59,090 --> 01:22:01,460
You're gonna have to network
with other people in order
1696
01:22:01,460 --> 01:22:02,620
for information sharing, too.
1697
01:22:02,620 --> 01:22:03,670
So networking is key.
1698
01:22:03,930 --> 01:22:05,310
But and I mentioned that earlier.
1699
01:22:05,520 --> 01:22:09,430
But in addition to that, I would also
argue for the new, especially for
1700
01:22:09,430 --> 01:22:13,570
the new analysts, don't be afraid
to be confident and assertive.
1701
01:22:13,620 --> 01:22:17,090
Not overbearing, but confident and
assertive, and don't be afraid to
1702
01:22:17,390 --> 01:22:19,160
to receive constructive criticism.
1703
01:22:19,170 --> 01:22:20,250
Don't take that personally.
1704
01:22:20,310 --> 01:22:23,530
Communication and
feedback obviously is key.
1705
01:22:23,550 --> 01:22:24,760
It steers what you produce.
1706
01:22:24,760 --> 01:22:26,120
It steers, how you do your job.
1707
01:22:26,140 --> 01:22:30,650
It even steers how you connect with your,
with the people who use your products.
1708
01:22:31,080 --> 01:22:35,310
So if what you are putting out
doesn't meet that need, getting
1709
01:22:35,310 --> 01:22:38,650
that feedback and communicating and
changing it so that it does is crucial.
1710
01:22:38,670 --> 01:22:40,400
So I would say communication is key.
1711
01:22:40,810 --> 01:22:44,720
Unfortunately, in this domain the
communication on the sworn side
1712
01:22:44,720 --> 01:22:46,260
will be in one of two extremes.
1713
01:22:46,270 --> 01:22:50,940
It will either be they ignore
you- … and never use you again, or
1714
01:22:50,960 --> 01:22:53,640
they ignore you because they don't
know who you are or what your value is.
1715
01:22:54,132 --> 01:22:57,592
Or if you put out something that
is not of benefit, they'll just be
1716
01:22:57,602 --> 01:23:00,802
very brutally honest to your face
and tell you it sucks and that you
1717
01:23:00,802 --> 01:23:02,012
don't need to put it out anymore.
1718
01:23:02,992 --> 01:23:05,432
So I have experienced both of those.
1719
01:23:05,572 --> 01:23:07,892
In fact, I can tell you
a story if I c- if I may.
1720
01:23:07,902 --> 01:23:07,932
Sure.
1721
01:23:08,122 --> 01:23:11,412
I remember , one of the domains when
I was in homicide that I first got
1722
01:23:11,412 --> 01:23:14,112
into was call detail record analysis.
1723
01:23:14,112 --> 01:23:17,622
It's a, it's an analytical component
now that is becoming popular
1724
01:23:17,622 --> 01:23:19,332
within the various agencies.
1725
01:23:19,922 --> 01:23:22,792
And I put, … They were running,
they were working a homicide.
1726
01:23:22,812 --> 01:23:23,572
I got the data.
1727
01:23:23,612 --> 01:23:28,622
I put out this this particular report to
them, and I ended up getting this scathing
1728
01:23:28,632 --> 01:23:34,072
email from this investigator, and I, and
today I thank him for it because I would
1729
01:23:34,082 --> 01:23:37,192
never have known there was a problem
unless he had done this, but it was
1730
01:23:37,192 --> 01:23:38,862
very rude and it was very disrespectful.
1731
01:23:39,032 --> 01:23:42,092
He basically said, "Hey, Chris, you
need to start using…" The two biggest
1732
01:23:42,092 --> 01:23:45,132
softwares are GeoTime and CellHawk
if people don't know that already.
1733
01:23:45,312 --> 01:23:48,142
Those are gonna be your two
big competitors within the call
1734
01:23:48,142 --> 01:23:50,572
detail record geo-fencing domain.
1735
01:23:51,042 --> 01:23:53,482
And so he basically said,
"You're using GeoTime.
1736
01:23:53,622 --> 01:23:54,532
GeoTime's crap.
1737
01:23:54,572 --> 01:23:58,372
I need you to use CellHawk i- or
CAST or the FBI CAST system and
1738
01:23:58,372 --> 01:24:00,782
it needs to do, be this way, and I
don't know why you're using this.
1739
01:24:00,792 --> 01:24:01,472
It's antiquated.
1740
01:24:01,472 --> 01:24:05,032
We have all decided it's antiquated
and you need to stop using it." So I
1741
01:24:05,032 --> 01:24:08,012
basically closed out of my email. I
walked down the hallway, walked into
1742
01:24:08,012 --> 01:24:10,562
the office, walked over to him and
said, "First off, don't ever fricking
1743
01:24:10,672 --> 01:24:12,072
tell me how to do my job ever again.
1744
01:24:12,612 --> 01:24:16,532
Num- number t- Because the, what you just
said, 90% of what you said is political.
1745
01:24:16,702 --> 01:24:17,922
You guys like CellHawk.
1746
01:24:18,032 --> 01:24:19,482
The analysts like GeoTime.
1747
01:24:19,532 --> 01:24:20,742
They both do the same thing.
1748
01:24:20,822 --> 01:24:22,952
I don't need you telling me
what fricking system to use.
1749
01:24:23,342 --> 01:24:27,332
Number two, if there's a problem with
this, it's user error, it's not software.
1750
01:24:27,382 --> 01:24:31,012
So if there's s- if there's something that
I have put out that you don't like, tell
1751
01:24:31,012 --> 01:24:33,052
me what I'm doing wrong so I can fix it."
1752
01:24:33,302 --> 01:24:33,982
And he did.
1753
01:24:34,212 --> 01:24:36,222
And then I'm like, gi-
give me like two hours.
1754
01:24:36,232 --> 01:24:39,592
I'll be right back." I went into
my office, I fixed what he wanted,
1755
01:24:39,612 --> 01:24:42,922
did what he wanted with everything,
found some mistakes in the data that
1756
01:24:42,922 --> 01:24:45,962
he had to figure out later with the
subpoena. But I, and then I put it
1757
01:24:45,962 --> 01:24:47,132
back out and he's "That's perfect.
1758
01:24:47,142 --> 01:24:50,148
That's what I wanted." I'm like
Why didn't you just say that?
1759
01:24:50,188 --> 01:24:51,358
Why did, why were you a jerk?
1760
01:24:51,988 --> 01:24:56,678
And then from that point forward,
my goal was to never have him come
1761
01:24:56,678 --> 01:24:59,848
in and have to ask a question of
me ever again on this analysis.
1762
01:25:00,368 --> 01:25:00,388
Yeah.
1763
01:25:00,408 --> 01:25:04,008
So if I saw something that was a
discrepancy in the data, I immediately
1764
01:25:04,008 --> 01:25:05,638
told him, "I'm putting this data out.
1765
01:25:05,738 --> 01:25:07,408
You're going to see this discrepancy.
1766
01:25:07,548 --> 01:25:09,648
This discrepancy is actually in the data.
1767
01:25:09,778 --> 01:25:13,238
I can't explain it and do what you will
with it." And then he came back, and say,
1768
01:25:13,238 --> 01:25:14,808
"Well, why is it there?" Let me show you.
1769
01:25:14,808 --> 01:25:15,488
Here's the data.
1770
01:25:15,598 --> 01:25:16,408
Here's what I did.
1771
01:25:16,438 --> 01:25:17,588
It's in both data sets.
1772
01:25:17,808 --> 01:25:20,258
It's not me, it's not the
system, it's the data.
1773
01:25:20,408 --> 01:25:24,758
And so I had answers from him from that
point forward, I actually got to a place
1774
01:25:24,758 --> 01:25:29,318
where he came in and said, "Chris you
are, like, 900% better at this than when
1775
01:25:29,318 --> 01:25:32,528
we started." And what you're putting
out now is actually incredibly valuable,
1776
01:25:32,608 --> 01:25:33,798
so thank you for what you're doing."
1777
01:25:33,918 --> 01:25:34,688
I won him over.
1778
01:25:34,968 --> 01:25:38,248
… I actually had the opportunity to
testify in court on one of his cases
1779
01:25:38,248 --> 01:25:41,868
to, for what I did, and he basically
looked at me afterwards and said,
1780
01:25:41,868 --> 01:25:43,228
"You did a great job, Chris." Yeah.
1781
01:25:43,228 --> 01:25:45,598
And I was like, "You did a great
job on challenging me to make
1782
01:25:45,598 --> 01:25:47,628
sure that this was right before
I took it to the DA's office."
1783
01:25:48,308 --> 01:25:49,708
So this is a mutual thing.
1784
01:25:49,708 --> 01:25:50,748
This isn't just a me thing.
1785
01:25:50,968 --> 01:25:53,648
I've only encompassed brutal
honesty like that maybe three
1786
01:25:53,648 --> 01:25:54,708
or four times in my career.
1787
01:25:55,028 --> 01:25:56,968
Most of the time they just won't
come to you anymore and they'll
1788
01:25:56,968 --> 01:25:59,268
do it themself, or they'll go to
somebody else and do it, or…
1789
01:25:59,318 --> 01:26:01,758
and you have to hear about it through
the grapevine that they're going to
1790
01:26:01,758 --> 01:26:04,458
somebody else for your work or whatever,
and then you have to have a conversation.
1791
01:26:04,798 --> 01:26:07,868
But- Yeah … just know that
the communication is key.
1792
01:26:08,158 --> 01:26:10,738
And obviously I touched on this,
but make sure that you put out good
1793
01:26:10,738 --> 01:26:13,758
quality work, because if you don't
man, it can come back and bite you.
1794
01:26:13,758 --> 01:26:16,338
I knew colleagues that don't work
with the department anymore, they've
1795
01:26:16,338 --> 01:26:21,068
retired, but early on in their career
they put out work and it wasn't right
1796
01:26:21,078 --> 01:26:25,648
or it wasn't accurate, and when that
person was a deputy he remembered
1797
01:26:25,648 --> 01:26:27,048
that when he became a lieutenant.
1798
01:26:27,068 --> 01:26:27,088
Yeah.
1799
01:26:28,128 --> 01:26:30,078
Because they're gonna
promote us at some point.
1800
01:26:30,198 --> 01:26:33,188
And the impression you make on them
when they're officers or deputies,
1801
01:26:33,398 --> 01:26:35,858
they're gonna carry with them all
the way up when they promote to
1802
01:26:35,858 --> 01:26:37,668
lieutenant, to captain, to chief,.
1803
01:26:37,748 --> 01:26:41,048
And then that will make or break
how they value you at that level.
1804
01:26:41,188 --> 01:26:45,838
And so if you have if you have a
sheriff who as a deputy got crappy
1805
01:26:45,838 --> 01:26:48,368
work from you, now he's the sheriff,
he's "Well, crime analysis is useless
1806
01:26:48,368 --> 01:26:50,948
'cause they put out crappy work." He
carried that with him his whole career.
1807
01:26:51,518 --> 01:26:55,418
So th- this is crucial for most analysts
to make sure that you put out good
1808
01:26:55,418 --> 01:26:59,048
quality work and make sure that it
meets the needs of the constituent.
1809
01:26:59,048 --> 01:27:01,548
So that would be my advice
in addition to networking.
1810
01:27:02,158 --> 01:27:02,528
Nice.
1811
01:27:02,748 --> 01:27:03,048
All right.
1812
01:27:03,068 --> 01:27:05,348
Well, let's finish up with
personal interest then.
1813
01:27:05,708 --> 01:27:09,478
And you mentioned it before,
you're into martial arts.
1814
01:27:09,678 --> 01:27:10,138
Yeah.
1815
01:27:10,138 --> 01:27:11,958
And it's something that you
learned at an early age.
1816
01:27:12,318 --> 01:27:14,568
Yeah, I started doing
martial arts when I was six.
1817
01:27:14,718 --> 01:27:18,148
It was something that was ins- I think
my dad conspired on this, but it was
1818
01:27:18,148 --> 01:27:22,918
something that he put me in front of The
Karate Kid in the '80s Yeah … and made
1819
01:27:22,918 --> 01:27:25,798
me watch that, and I'm like, "I wanna
do martial arts now." He's "Awesome,
1820
01:27:25,798 --> 01:27:27,278
I wanted you to do martial arts too."
1821
01:27:28,328 --> 01:27:30,898
So, so he put me in martial arts.
1822
01:27:30,908 --> 01:27:35,198
I started at six or six and a half,
and it I would say that the mindset
1823
01:27:35,218 --> 01:27:39,508
has never left, but I actually stopped
martial arts or actively doing it
1824
01:27:39,508 --> 01:27:40,978
or teaching it in roughly 2016.
1825
01:27:41,398 --> 01:27:45,648
But it was really from 19- 19 I was,
in 1986 was when I was six years
1826
01:27:45,648 --> 01:27:49,498
old, all the way through 2016 I was
doing martial arts in either, either
1827
01:27:49,498 --> 01:27:51,378
teaching or actually training in it.
1828
01:27:51,388 --> 01:27:53,998
So it was definitely a passion
of mine for many years.
1829
01:27:54,388 --> 01:27:54,708
Yeah.
1830
01:27:54,718 --> 01:27:59,488
And so yeah, I had my son, and he
started out with TaeKwonDo, and then
1831
01:27:59,488 --> 01:28:03,828
he did Brazilian jujitsu, and both
of them kinda ended in the same way.
1832
01:28:03,838 --> 01:28:08,918
, It was the best the first year, and then
it slowly, became a chore and became
1833
01:28:08,948 --> 01:28:13,078
too much 'cause it was year-round,
and- Yeah … I think really he,
1834
01:28:13,228 --> 01:28:17,748
something like for him, he could've
benefited from it being more seasonal.
1835
01:28:17,868 --> 01:28:18,278
Yeah.
1836
01:28:18,298 --> 01:28:22,158
It, im- I think in my case, my, my dad
and I made a promise to each other.
1837
01:28:22,248 --> 01:28:23,458
Because it was going to be…
1838
01:28:23,458 --> 01:28:24,598
Our- ours was year-round too.
1839
01:28:24,608 --> 01:28:27,158
But you could choose when you go
and when you did it, obviously.
1840
01:28:27,428 --> 01:28:27,458
Yeah.
1841
01:28:27,558 --> 01:28:32,618
But at the time, my dad basically said
if I'm going to put in the effort to
1842
01:28:32,648 --> 01:28:36,308
take you, you're going to put in the
effort to learn, and that's g- and
1843
01:28:36,308 --> 01:28:38,858
that means y- you're gonna have to give
up other things while we go to this.
1844
01:28:38,868 --> 01:28:42,978
Are you prepared for that?" And at
the time I was young and didn't, I
1845
01:28:42,988 --> 01:28:47,048
don't think I fully knew what that
was gonna mean. But then it's "Well,
1846
01:28:47,168 --> 01:28:48,558
my, my friends are out and playing.
1847
01:28:48,558 --> 01:28:51,568
I don't wanna go to martial arts."
"Hey, we agreed that if I was gonna
1848
01:28:51,568 --> 01:28:53,708
do this, you were gonna do this too.
1849
01:28:53,868 --> 01:28:55,438
This is on the calendar for today.
1850
01:28:55,618 --> 01:28:59,178
Get in the car." And what that taught
me is to follow through with what
1851
01:28:59,178 --> 01:29:02,538
you say you're gonna do and to be
long-suffering throu- through stuff
1852
01:29:02,758 --> 01:29:04,178
in order to accomplish the goal.
1853
01:29:04,288 --> 01:29:07,218
And that's, those are end goals that
my dad instilled in me just with
1854
01:29:07,218 --> 01:29:08,438
the martial arts side of things.
1855
01:29:08,448 --> 01:29:12,528
So I thank him today for it because I have
to finish what I start and I have to, I
1856
01:29:12,528 --> 01:29:15,873
ha- I will be persistent through a lotta
hardship if I know what the end goal is.
1857
01:29:16,897 --> 01:29:16,917
All
1858
01:29:17,057 --> 01:29:17,867
Very good.
1859
01:29:17,907 --> 01:29:18,237
All right.
1860
01:29:18,427 --> 01:29:20,257
All right, Chris, th- this has been great.
1861
01:29:20,687 --> 01:29:25,187
Thank you so much for your time here
today and your perspective- and just
1862
01:29:25,327 --> 01:29:31,517
giving us your insight on your 20-plus
years as being a law enforcement analyst.
1863
01:29:31,537 --> 01:29:34,507
Our last segment of the
show is Words To The World.
1864
01:29:34,737 --> 01:29:37,627
This is where you can promote
any idea that you wish.
1865
01:29:37,637 --> 01:29:39,777
Chris, what are your words to the world?
1866
01:29:39,937 --> 01:29:43,307
I think my wor- words to the
world, it's not only for career
1867
01:29:43,307 --> 01:29:44,907
but personal, is to know your why.
1868
01:29:45,027 --> 01:29:46,607
Know why you're doing something.
1869
01:29:47,027 --> 01:29:50,937
Knowing your why can get you
through a lot of difficult times.
1870
01:29:51,437 --> 01:29:54,437
But if you're just doing the what and
the how, you're gonna get bored and
1871
01:29:54,437 --> 01:29:57,347
you're gonna move on, or you're gonna
get disenfranchised very quickly.
1872
01:29:57,627 --> 01:30:00,947
But if you can buy off on the why you're
doing something, it can get you through
1873
01:30:00,947 --> 01:30:05,267
a lot of things, and with that it can
also lead to a lot of flexibility and
1874
01:30:05,267 --> 01:30:07,107
embracing change over time as well.
1875
01:30:07,597 --> 01:30:10,337
But if you don't know why you're doing
something, man, it is really hard
1876
01:30:10,337 --> 01:30:13,147
to stay consistent with something
long-term, and that would be my words.
1877
01:30:14,227 --> 01:30:15,047
Very good.
1878
01:30:15,047 --> 01:30:17,307
What I leave every guest with,
you've given me just enough
1879
01:30:17,307 --> 01:30:18,407
to talk bad about you later.
1880
01:30:20,947 --> 01:30:23,677
But I do appreciate you
being on the show, Chris.
1881
01:30:23,787 --> 01:30:25,847
Thank you so much, and you be safe.
1882
01:30:26,287 --> 01:30:26,487
Yeah.
1883
01:30:26,487 --> 01:30:28,257
Thank you, Jason, and it was a pleasure.
1884
01:30:28,285 --> 01:30:30,625
Thank you for making it to
the end of another episode of
1885
01:30:30,625 --> 01:30:32,005
Analyst Talk with Jason Elder.
1886
01:30:32,065 --> 01:30:35,515
You can show your support by sharing
this and other episodes found on
1887
01:30:35,515 --> 01:30:35,645
our website@www.leapodcasts.com.
1888
01:30:40,015 --> 01:30:43,165
If you have a topic you would like
us to cover or have a suggestion
1889
01:30:43,165 --> 01:30:45,605
for our next guest, please send us
an email at LEApodcasts@gmail.com
1890
01:30:47,880 --> 01:30:49,855
Till next time, analysts, keep talking.