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00:00:03.411This is Lead Time.
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00:00:06.565Welcome to Lead Time, tim Allman here.
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00:00:08.611Jack Calberg I don't know where Jack is.
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00:00:11.425Jack has been at a lot of conferences, actually recently.
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00:00:13.589I think he's at one today.
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00:00:20.640But today I get to hang out for the second time with my sister in Christ on a podcast, at least Vanessa and I.
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00:00:23.407Always I want to go Seaford, but it's Seifert, am I right there?
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00:00:26.414It is Tim, come on, you're Lutheran Majority of us are.
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00:00:28.519German, it's the E-I, exactly yeah.
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00:00:30.926Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly so, Vanessa Seifert.
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00:00:31.870Let me tell you a little bit about her.
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00:00:40.448Dr Seifert received, god's grace as a Christian convert in her college dorm over 25 years ago and we as a missionary for a year in a bicycle shop.
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00:00:51.853That's cool as a college professor and as a leadership development specialist in the corporate sector.
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00:01:02.811Dr Seifert's educational path BA in theology, concordia University, nebraska and then she has an MS in family life ministry how cool is that?
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00:01:04.049Concordia University, nebraska as well and a PhD.
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00:01:08.849And this is that Concordia University, nebraska as well and a PhD and this is where we're going to hang out today in organizational leadership.
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00:01:13.959You had me at organizational leadership, dr Seifert at the University of the Incarnate Word.
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00:01:23.730That's where she got her PhD, along with a wide array of field experiences, and have prepared her for roles in ministry executive and consultant roles.
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00:01:48.650Dr Seifer currently serves the Nebraska District of the Lutheran Church, missouri Synod in a part-time role as a ministry executive in the area of lifelong pastoral formation oh yes, I love lifelong learning Assisting the district president and the staff in maintaining an intentional focus on discipleship formation in district conferences, retreats and training events.
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00:01:53.849She also leads an initiative called the Leadership Learning Communities, or LLC.
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00:01:57.561I've heard of LLC before but no, this is Leadership Learning Communities.
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00:02:07.644Over 20% this is cool over 20% of Nebraska district pastors have experienced this two-year formation process focused on peer group learning.
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00:02:13.645There's power in peer-to-peer learning, peer group learning and customized one-on-one coaching experiences.
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00:02:20.947She also assists pastors in personal development plans and ministry sabbaticals which I got a ministry sabbatical coming up next summer.
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00:02:22.324Excited for that, dr Seifert.
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00:02:33.246Additionally, through Seifert Leadership Consultancy, vanessa partners with other LCMS, districts, universities and entities in mission alignment for special projects.
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00:02:34.449Vanessa and her husband Brandon.
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00:02:46.126They live in Lincoln, nebraska, with their two daughters and you can hear more about her ministry at Vanessa and then it's S-E-I-F-E-R-Tcom vanessaseifertcom.
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00:02:47.436So how are you doing today, vanessa?
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00:02:50.948This is going to be an excellent, excellent conversation Pumped up for it.
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00:02:54.128Yes, I'm also pumped up for it as well.
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00:02:55.645I'm doing really, really well.
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00:02:56.307It's a good day.
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00:02:57.564Thanks for inviting me on.
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00:03:04.991So the catalyst for this conversation is you're speaking at the Pacific Southwest District All Workers Conference.
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00:03:10.129This will be released shortly before you speak, late November here in Phoenix.
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00:03:13.021Thank you for saying yes to come and to hang out with us.
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00:03:23.045And the overall kind of topic is going to be adaptive leadership and there's a lot of literature that's been written on this leadership on the line.
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00:03:28.633We'll be referring to a number of these kind of scholastic, sacred and secular works.
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00:03:34.688Canoeing the Mountains is another kind of work that kind of moves into some of these adaptive leadership principles.
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00:03:41.032But when you hear that phrase adaptive leadership, for some of our listeners this may be kind of a new concept.
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00:03:42.163So let's define the term.
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00:03:45.031What is adaptive leadership, dr Seifert?
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00:04:31.497Well, for starters I'll just share that there isn't necessarily one unified way to look at adaptive leadership alone, which makes it kind of confusing, and in fact the main theorists, heifetz and Linsky, even went a step further to talk about the complexity of concepts amidst adaptive leadership theory that similarly don't have unifying definitions like leadership, power and authority, which I have to believe are several of the reasons why it's incredibly difficult for us to both understand what we're talking about but then to even get on the same page to have some practical application.
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00:05:12.591But today I'm not going to let us slide on that, so I want to quickly answer your question to say Heifetz and Linsky are former Harvard professors that have been, I would say, within the scholarship community, been named as the key theorists of adaptive leadership theory, and they're retired now and amidst their work at Harvard Linsky was there, goodness, over 40 years ago, for a very long time and I don't have their CVs time stamped but they're since retired and also became famous consultants who, of course, had a team around them as well, and I can't list all of their names.
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00:05:29.014So I would say Haivitz and Linsky are kind of the main ones and, simply put, they would define adaptive leadership as the practice of mobilizing people to tackle tough challenges and thrive.
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00:05:33.788So the practice of mobilizing people to tackle tough challenges and thrive.
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00:05:52.757And so, right off the bat, I have to say that adaptive leadership is not a leader-centric theory and that really challenges, I think, a lot of norms and practices around how we first understand adaptive leadership theory but secondly, what we do about it.
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00:06:05.360So I'm going to pause there and I do have a quote around authority, power and leadership that I think is pretty foundational power and leadership.
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00:06:06.122That I think is pretty foundational.
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00:06:42.324And I'm just going to read this because I don't have this memorized, but this is a Heifetz and Linsky quote that comes straight out of leadership on the line, and whether or not a person wants to go really deep in understanding adaptive leadership theory and the practical applications of it, I want to tell you that this quote right here applies to each and every one of us, whether or not we have a name on a flow chart, whether or not we see ourselves as influential and important in all spheres of our life our home, our hobby spaces, our churches, our schools, our communities, the culture at large.
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00:06:43.387So here's the quote.
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00:06:51.488People have long confused the notion of leadership with authority, power and influence.
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00:07:12.072We find it extremely useful to see leadership as a practice, an activity that some people do some of the time, and so, tim, how this connects directly to adaptive leadership theory is that adaptive leadership theory is about mobilizing people to tackle tough challenges.
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00:07:14.904It's about the leader plus the people.
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00:07:19.593It begins with the leader's change and it doesn't stop there.
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00:07:22.461Ah, this is good.
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00:07:24.122So go deeper.
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00:07:34.048You will make the case and I've had Sid Linsky will make the case that a lot of leadership principles maybe over focus.
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00:07:43.536And let me piggyback on this I've heard the juxtaposition of adaptive leadership from servant leadership, servant leadership.
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00:07:45.516So could you kind of because servant leadership?
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00:08:01.511I remember going through I'm a bulldog, we're bulldogs right Going through Concordia University and reading a lot about servant leadership and then I hear you know, a couple of decades later, well, there may be a type of leadership that surpasses servant leadership.
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00:08:06.783So could you distinguish, kind of, the primary points of servant leadership to adaptive leadership?
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00:08:18.382And let me make does servant leadership kind of lead more from the leader first theory of leadership rather than the leader plus the people form of leadership to solve collective problems?
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00:08:19.762So go deeper there, vanessa.
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00:08:20.783Yeah.
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00:08:22.125So here's what I want to answer the question.
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00:08:31.396I'd like for you and me and all of the listeners to imagine structure, imagine a container.
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00:08:44.495Okay, I'm going to give you two different types of containers, and then what I'm going to say is there's a myriad of leadership philosophies that could be poured into either of those two containers.
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00:08:59.494Here's the first container, and these are traditional leadership theory models where decision-making power is centralized, with authority and hierarchy guiding the process.
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00:09:05.932So I want you to hear me share this in the most values neutral way.
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00:09:09.368I'm a citizen of a country.
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00:09:23.341I want order, I want a clear decision making process where we have people in charge and we are kept safe and we can all flourish Right.
00:09:23.341 -->
00:09:24.865So so there's the first container.
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00:09:25.967I like that too.
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00:09:27.292Yeah, yeah.
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00:10:09.533And so the second container, though, is one that I would describe the structure as it's more democratic, it's process oriented, it actively involves everyone in the organization, whether that's a family, a school, a church, a corporate setting, and this approach, this container, taps into the collective intelligence and diverse perspectives of all of the team members, and so what this does is it fosters a culture where ideas and beliefs are continuously evolving to meet new challenges and opportunities.
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00:10:12.206Right, so we have two separate containers.
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00:10:13.884I like that one.
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00:10:16.270You know what, tim, can I have both containers?
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00:10:34.779They can both be at play in a variety of settings, be at play in a variety of settings and we might find that we employ one or both, or either or of the containers in a certain contextualized setting.
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00:10:35.441Are we?
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00:10:37.783willing to do that?
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00:10:38.884Yeah Well, that is a question.
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00:10:44.472There's no doubt that hierarchy and order is necessary for humans to thrive.
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00:11:16.683Where there is no hierarchy and order and in my younger years of leadership, I would kind of naively maybe state that hierarchy was negative Hierarchy just is, it is built into structure and you need leaders with titles who occupy a certain leadership space, speak in a certain way, and this gives comfort to the community when they know who's responsible for making what decision.
00:11:16.683 -->
00:11:16.945Like.
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00:11:21.053There's no in our governance structure here, it's highly order.
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00:11:35.669This is strict policy governance, right, and so I allow now hear this appropriately in strict policy governance, the senior pastor which I rarely use that kind of tech the senior pastor either causes or allows everything in the organization to happen.
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00:11:47.668Ah, but there's, there's a lot of order there, right, I have limitations, I have ends and I know when those ends are reached, right, and me and my team.
00:11:47.668 -->
00:11:57.631But I, like it flows through me One point of accountability and then and then I also know my boundaries and in turn our team knows our boundaries, what we can do and what we cannot do.
00:11:57.631 -->
00:12:05.448There is inbred hierarchy there in our church structure and and even in the Lutheran Church Missouri Synod.
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00:12:20.642I'm under a district I have we don't use this title but I'm under a bishop, I'm under authority, right, and I think for us to not acknowledge that in this kind of hyper egalitarian kind of understanding of the world is inappropriate.
00:12:20.741 -->
00:12:22.943At the same time, I also recognize.
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00:12:30.089At the same time I also recognize that when I consciously place myself down, I move down with the people.
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00:12:34.932I understand the problems of the everyday Jesus follower.
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00:12:38.975My leadership in the hierarchy becomes better.
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00:12:47.845Like I listen better, I understand what's going on and therefore my decision-making ability this is the democratic part, that container.
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00:13:01.225My decision-making ability is amplified, the speed of trust is increased, I hear, and we collectively as a ministry, make better decisions because we're with all of what we're utilizing.
00:13:01.285 -->
00:13:01.767I love this.
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00:13:29.000We're utilizing the collective intelligence of the people for anyone and we're not getting into politics in the Missouri Senate or anywhere else right now, necessarily but for anyone who does not get down and understand the squeaky wheel, or the 30% of folks who have this kind of a nuanced idea for leaders not to do that is very unwise and it can lead towards splinters if you don't listen well to the demo.
00:13:29.000 -->
00:13:30.544So we have both things working.
00:13:30.544 -->
00:13:32.227We want order.
00:13:32.227 -->
00:13:34.760This is where the adaptability comes in, right.
00:13:34.760 -->
00:13:42.140We want the order of the hierarchy, but we also want to have a voice into the everyday struggle.
00:13:42.140 -->
00:13:45.107So, yeah, correct any of my thinking there, let's go.
00:13:45.107 -->
00:13:46.691Let me make this a little more practical.
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00:13:47.211This is okay.
00:13:47.211 -->
00:13:51.958I know this is a podcast on leadership and we will go there.
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00:13:53.245We are there.
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00:14:03.908I want to share an example and first say that we can't separate our life from our life of leadership God has created us to be whole people.
00:14:04.480 -->
00:14:15.668Here is an example that I believe all of us can relate to to some degree and if we haven't experienced it yet, it's coming and that is caring for an aging parent and walking with them.
00:14:15.668 -->
00:14:23.072So, again, adaptive leadership is defined as the practice of mobilizing people to tackle tough challenges.
00:14:23.072 -->
00:14:39.951Now, there's two different types of key things that we need to first understand as we are mobilizing people to tackle the tough challenge of walking with an aging parent, and that's the distinguishment between an adaptive challenge and a technical problem.
00:14:39.951 -->
00:14:44.951So, as adults are aging, they lose mobility.
00:14:44.951 -->
00:14:49.530We have experts around us who have researched this.
00:14:49.530 -->
00:14:52.008My husband is an orthopedic surgeon.
00:14:52.008 -->
00:15:03.394He is all about people's mobility and surgical procedures and has a team of people as physical therapists, occupational therapists, to help people with their movement.
00:15:03.394 -->
00:15:14.140And so technical challenges, technical problems, are these things that are set before us, where there are very clear, observable ways to solve the issue.
00:15:14.822 -->
00:15:25.538Nobody likes walking with an aging family member, as they are declining and, for example, one of facets of that journey, experiencing changes in that area.
00:15:25.538 -->
00:15:27.683But those are technical challenges.
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00:15:37.780We can get a cane, we can get a walker, we can ensure there are ramps and, of course, that is difficult, that is challenging, it's hard to watch, it's hard for the individual.
00:15:37.780 -->
00:15:53.043Conversely, even in that same mix of that example, there is an adaptive challenge of said aging adult is no longer able to lead themselves in a safe manner.
00:15:53.043 -->
00:15:55.048They can't drive.
00:15:55.048 -->
00:16:02.966Maybe their cognitive decline is such that they don't know who their loved ones are around them.
00:16:04.388 -->
00:16:08.514And this type of challenge is not a quick, easy fix.
00:16:08.514 -->
00:16:16.033What happens when what you've always done doesn't work anymore?
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00:16:27.596When you look at this aging parent and you no longer see a mom or a dad who cared for you in your younger years and in your mid years?
00:16:27.596 -->
00:16:30.089And now the roles are reversed?
00:16:30.089 -->
00:16:38.005You could choose that first container and say I'm the matriarch, I'm the patriarch, I'm going to do this alone, I'm going to make the decisions.
00:16:38.005 -->
00:16:47.722Or you could choose the second container, right, you could choose the collective wisdom of the community to tackle this tough challenge.
00:16:48.323 -->
00:16:49.868Now here's one of the many difficulties.
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00:16:58.700They're not always clear cut, like here's the adaptive challenge, bucket, and here's the technical problems, bucket and A plus B equals C.
00:16:58.700 -->
00:17:04.286They're often intertwined and there's so many challenging things about adaptive challenges.
00:17:04.286 -->
00:17:16.257But I would say one of the greatest challenges is that tackling an adaptive challenge requires us to discern if there's competing values at play.
00:17:16.257 -->
00:17:33.748We have to decide what we're going to take with us as we navigate this challenge and we have to decide what we're going to let go of Because, tim, when we realize what has always worked for us is no longer working, we cannot outwork the challenge.
00:17:33.748 -->
00:17:40.849We need a new way, we need to retrain for the new terrain.
00:17:43.701 -->
00:17:54.527Well, now you're using canoeing, the mountains language, right, you got to dip, ditch the canoes when you get to the mountains and that is.
00:17:54.527 -->
00:17:59.421That is painful, um, and I, I mean, I'll speak.
00:17:59.421 -->
00:17:59.961I love the.
00:17:59.961 -->
00:18:12.073I love the story of the aging parent, because we've all been there or we're all going to be there, and it's one of the hardest things to do is for that.
00:18:12.073 -->
00:18:25.854It's hard on every front, both for those who are caring and for the one receiving the care, because he or she doesn't want to give up independence, the ability to make decisions for themselves.
00:18:25.854 -->
00:18:36.122And then the adaptive challenge for the care provider is I have to make decisions for you, but I want it to be.
00:18:36.122 -->
00:18:43.943I want, by the Spirit's power, you to see that this is actually best for you and then you come under.
00:18:43.943 -->
00:18:48.192But, man, that sort of you come under the care of those who are with you.
00:18:48.192 -->
00:18:55.471That sort of a of a challenge is so, so applicable in the church, because the let's bring it to this.
00:18:55.800 -->
00:19:17.173This world, the world has changed what used to work, meaning open up the doors, and Lutherans, in our context, you know, just kind of flood in because immigrants have moved there and like, we're obviously way far beyond that, and we need to learn new ways of community engagement, new ways of leadership.
00:19:17.740 -->
00:19:29.320And yet the way we've been trained, maybe, is to be the for pastors the word and sacrament guy Right the Bible.
00:19:29.320 -->
00:19:30.325The word and sacrament guy right the Bible guy.
00:19:30.325 -->
00:19:32.071But now it's requiring me to learn to solve these new challenges.
00:19:32.071 -->
00:19:36.405It's requiring me to learn a lot of things that I wasn't trained for and I don't even know.
00:19:36.405 -->
00:19:37.528I don't even know.
00:19:37.528 -->
00:19:39.806Often I'm just kind of painting with a broad brush here.
00:19:39.806 -->
00:19:52.664I don't even know the right questions to ask or how to build a team of folks to help solve the problems of a very, very post-Christian culture in which I find myself, where people's main need is doesn't appear to be a spiritual.
00:19:52.664 -->
00:20:00.732It is a spiritual need, but people don't acknowledge that it is a spiritual need, and so how do I even gain a seat at the table, if you will?
00:20:01.214 -->
00:20:41.134to make a case that Christian community, what the church offers, is what the individual needs, Like this is and I'm speaking like very, very much as one who's trying to answer that question in my context with my, with the people Jesus has placed around me to solve Now there's no solving, I guess, here, but at least to to least to enter into that space with people who are far from Jesus, Like what is their need and what are the caricatures that they have of the church that I want to dismiss lovingly, challenge right, and the adaptive challenge is so so much in front of every, every leader in the local church.
00:20:41.134 -->
00:20:43.508Anything more to add there as we move into church leadership?
00:20:43.508 -->
00:20:43.969Vanessa?
00:20:44.530 -->
00:20:45.413leader in the local church.
00:20:45.413 -->
00:20:47.339Anything more to add there as you move into church leadership, vanessa?
00:20:47.339 -->
00:20:51.508Yeah, so there's consultants who have written books on this and they've offered very meticulous frameworks that are all helpful.
00:20:51.508 -->
00:20:59.690I'd love to just share two just critical, critical starting points and continuous postures.
00:20:59.690 -->
00:21:06.290And let me first say we're never going to be fully prepared for the next thing that's in front of us.
00:21:06.912 -->
00:21:07.153I agree.
00:21:08.060 -->
00:21:16.980I know you gave a little shout out to the lifelong piece in my title God's not done with us and he's not done with us until we're with him in heaven.
00:21:16.980 -->
00:21:18.547And so here's the two things.
00:21:18.547 -->
00:21:23.890Are we willing to say I don't know?
00:21:23.890 -->
00:21:26.396Are we willing to say I don't know?
00:21:26.396 -->
00:21:37.833Are we willing to say to those very complex questions that you have raised within the midst of community I don't know, but this is our work to do together.
00:21:37.833 -->
00:21:44.488It begins and continues with humility because we don't know.
00:21:44.488 -->
00:21:48.880It begins and continues with humility because we don't know.
00:21:48.880 -->
00:21:58.099And secondly, leaders are invited to humbly lead the learning.
00:21:58.099 -->
00:22:20.372As we practice curiosity together, which is a skill that we can all foster, god will continue to reveal what we need to pay attention to, how he is inviting us to walk alongside him and what he is already doing.
00:22:20.372 -->
00:22:23.539Are we willing to humbly lead the learning?
00:22:23.539 -->
00:22:27.442Are we willing to?
00:22:27.462 -->
00:22:32.233humbly lead, the continual looking to the Lord.
00:22:32.233 -->
00:22:32.694That's good.
00:22:32.694 -->
00:22:33.195That's good.
00:22:33.195 -->
00:22:38.305I'm going to speak for the pastor.
00:22:38.305 -->
00:22:42.953Like we have so much certainty and I'm almost trained.
00:22:42.953 -->
00:23:05.663I have certainty in Christ.
00:23:05.663 -->
00:23:07.190I have certainty in this is the way the church works around word have.
00:23:07.190 -->
00:23:09.079The things I don't have certainty are how to engage the community.
00:23:09.079 -->
00:23:16.911I don't have certainty in how God wants to raise up the body of believers in my context here at Christ Greenfield, to engage the community.
00:23:16.911 -->
00:23:20.830And so I have to maintain that humble posture to say I need help.
00:23:20.830 -->
00:23:24.190That's another way to say I don't know everything.
00:23:24.190 -->
00:23:25.846I need your help.
00:23:25.846 -->
00:23:29.705I need the body's help and the gifts of all of the body.
00:23:29.705 -->
00:23:36.222And then I am never done practicing the skill of curiosity.
00:23:36.222 -->
00:23:38.909As the world changes, I change as our.
00:23:38.929 -->
00:23:40.972You know, no one really likes change.
00:23:40.972 -->
00:23:43.104It's like a curse word, especially in a Lutheran context.
00:23:43.104 -->
00:23:44.165Change we don't change.
00:23:44.165 -->
00:23:46.751You know those types of things we have to.
00:23:46.751 -->
00:23:51.481We have to adapt because everything is adapting around us.
00:23:51.481 -->
00:23:55.036So you mentioned that practicing curiosity is a skill.
00:23:55.036 -->
00:23:58.202Could you go deeper into how that skill can be cultivated?
00:24:00.866 -->
00:24:05.795When you hear a statement, do you have an urge to respond before it's even quiet?
00:24:05.795 -->
00:24:11.388What would happen if you just created a little pause?
00:24:11.388 -->
00:24:16.689Yeah, you know Luther talked about the mysteries of God.
00:24:16.689 -->
00:24:23.393What could it look like for us to tap into our DNA history a little bit?
00:24:23.393 -->
00:24:28.942This isn't super foreign and beyond Luther, we see it everywhere in God's word too.
00:24:28.942 -->
00:24:35.375Look how our Lord fostered curiosity through the power of questions.
00:24:35.375 -->
00:24:42.587Jesus is a boss in every way and he's the biggest boss in asking the right question at the right time.
00:24:42.587 -->
00:24:45.551Let's tap into that.
00:24:45.551 -->
00:24:48.415Yeah.
00:24:49.436 -->
00:24:51.788Yeah, hey could agree more.
00:24:51.788 -->
00:25:07.090A life verse for me Philippians 2, he who humbled himself, the humility of Christ, the gravity of the incarnation that he who had every right to take the high place, humbled himself, even to the point of death on a cross.
00:25:07.090 -->
00:25:23.095And it was through the humble journey that the Father elevated him, seating him at the right hand of the Father, and has given us that adaptive, curious, humble posture as the gospel goes out into the world and crosses every cultural barrier.
00:25:23.095 -->
00:25:30.567Because our biggest felt need is sin being eradicated and that's why Jesus came to become sin for us.
00:25:30.567 -->
00:25:42.064And yet he engaged people, he met people where they were and he understood what it was like to care for the Samaritan as well as for the Orthodox Jew.
00:25:42.064 -->
00:25:45.492And he's just I love that you use the word.
00:25:45.492 -->
00:25:52.665He's the boss, but he's the ultimate boss in teaching us the way of humility, the way of curiosity.
00:25:52.665 -->
00:25:57.307Anything more about the way of Jesus connected to adaptive leadership?
00:25:57.560 -->
00:26:06.871Yeah, I'd love to offer a guiding, leaderly question around this that I just have to believe Jesus continues to ask.
00:26:06.871 -->
00:26:16.375The Holy Spirit asks us and here's the question In this moment, as I'm watching or listening, what's happening?
00:26:16.375 -->
00:26:18.990What is going on inside of me?
00:26:18.990 -->
00:27:00.474What is going on inside of me, because here's the reality, tim as we consider adaptive leadership theory and mobilizing people to tackle tough challenges, a system that's within a system, then we are able, more able, to emerge from the waters of baptism in more spiritually maturing ways, all powered by the Holy Spirit, to create space for the other, to also get curious.
00:27:00.474 -->
00:27:05.084But it begins and continues with our own leading ourselves.
00:27:05.084 -->
00:27:08.038What is going on inside of me right now?
00:27:08.038 -->
00:27:11.570Cultivating that lifelong curiosity is critical for everything.
00:27:11.570 -->
00:27:15.481I have to believe Jesus would ask that question, amen.
00:27:15.521 -->
00:27:18.387Brother sister what is going on inside of you right now.
00:27:19.394 -->
00:27:30.362Yeah, the human brain is so unique we're always asking two questions kind of simultaneously who am I and how do the people that I'm around right now?
00:27:30.362 -->
00:27:31.344Act.
00:27:31.344 -->
00:27:32.526What is?
00:27:32.546 -->
00:27:32.727the.
00:27:32.727 -->
00:27:37.823So there's kind of the individualization and there's the communal response.
00:27:37.823 -->
00:27:49.643And I think your question, what's going on inside of me, says what is the appropriate posture right now and how am I supposed to speak and what is the tone of which I speak?
00:27:49.643 -->
00:27:56.906To draw people, because this is what Jesus did, especially for the broken and the hurting, those who had questions, those who were concerned.
00:27:56.906 -->
00:28:00.303His speech always drew them near rather than push them away.
00:28:00.824 -->
00:28:03.798You look at the Pharisees and Jesus's words.
00:28:03.798 -->
00:28:10.019They were condemning, right, Because let's just be clear, why was Jesus condemning of the Pharisees?
00:28:10.019 -->
00:28:18.307Because they had absolute certainty, they had figured out God and the things of God, right, and they developed different laws around this.
00:28:18.307 -->
00:28:22.467And he's like I don't know that you even know the heart of God.
00:28:22.467 -->
00:28:23.490Like he is so far above, You've heard it said.
00:28:23.490 -->
00:28:23.931I think the Sermon on.
00:28:23.931 -->
00:28:24.492Like he is so far above.
00:28:24.492 -->
00:28:25.134You've heard it said.
00:28:25.275 -->
00:28:31.144I think the Sermon on the Mount is so informative, right, You've developed these kind of tight ways that you define yourself.
00:28:31.144 -->
00:28:32.401Let me get to the heart of it.
00:28:32.401 -->
00:28:35.423All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.
00:28:35.423 -->
00:28:39.740Everyone who's looked or said, has had hate, et cetera, is guilty of the law.
00:28:39.740 -->
00:28:45.090So there is no ability for you to place yourself in that hierarchy position.
00:28:45.090 -->
00:28:58.545Mediating even between and this is the gravity of the incarnation mediating between God, the Father, and the work that takes place in the grassroots, I am coming in as the mediator and giving you a brand new way.
00:28:58.545 -->
00:29:03.787So let's dig into anything more before we move into more of the primary principles.
00:29:03.787 -->
00:29:06.625So this is kind of the guts of adaptive leadership.
00:29:06.625 -->
00:29:09.683What are the primary principles of adaptive leadership?
00:29:09.683 -->
00:29:10.819Let's go a little deeper there.
00:29:11.260 -->
00:29:11.461Yeah.
00:29:11.461 -->
00:29:19.269So there's five key goals that Heifetz and Linsky lay out that I'll maybe just quickly share.
00:29:19.269 -->
00:29:24.645We're not going to dive into them, but a criticism I have heard from a friend, which makes perfect sense.
00:29:24.645 -->
00:29:38.500When you come to either listening to this conversation or reading an article with a clean slate and not having a background, without sharing these bullet points, this conversation can be really like pie in the sky.
00:29:38.500 -->
00:29:46.786Okay, you're talking about mobilizing people to tackle tough challenges and differentiating between two challenges that are in front of you, and OK, thanks for the handle of the example.
00:29:46.846 -->
00:29:48.328But what do you actually mean?
00:29:48.328 -->
00:29:55.295And so adaptive leaders help others achieve these collective goals by five things.
00:29:55.295 -->
00:29:58.685Here's the first one mobilizing people and setting them in motion.
00:29:58.685 -->
00:30:04.007Number two, motivating people and giving them the energy to accomplish the task.
00:30:04.007 -->
00:30:08.902Three, organizing people and providing structure for the work ahead.
00:30:08.902 -->
00:30:13.415Four, orienting people and sending them in the right direction.
00:30:13.415 -->
00:30:18.767And five, focusing people's attention on what's most important.
00:30:19.126 -->
00:30:32.326And so if anyone is exhausted after listening to me read those five things, let me first start by saying adaptive leadership never ends and, secondarily, it requires collective action.
00:30:32.326 -->
00:30:42.099So I by no means am saying the lead leader is responsible for five of those things, but as you consider this journey of mobilizing people to tackle tough challenges.
00:30:42.099 -->
00:30:45.207These five goals are critical.
00:30:45.207 -->
00:30:50.749There are six leadership behaviors amidst adaptive leadership theory.
00:30:50.749 -->
00:30:53.175I'm certainly not going to go into all of them now.
00:30:53.175 -->
00:30:54.157You can look online.
00:30:54.157 -->
00:31:01.301But the first one we can certainly talk about a little bit more, and that is getting on the balcony.
00:31:01.301 -->
00:31:06.654So that is the starting point of an adaptive leadership behavioral practice.
00:31:06.654 -->
00:31:12.367That is really critical, not only on the front end but continuously throughout the whole process.
00:31:12.367 -->
00:31:19.778But before we go there, any quick thoughts, questions, reactions to those five goals that I share around adaptive leadership.
00:31:20.419 -->
00:31:36.807So I have, because visuals are helpful to frame up these five goals I've kind of thought about kind of the arms open wide, or you can use an hourglass maybe, kind of.
00:31:36.807 -->
00:31:40.945So my arms are open wide to mobilize the willing.
00:31:40.945 -->
00:31:48.382Now I can't lead everyone right Because I have a bandwidth issue, but I can have an arms open wide, humble posture to mobilize.
00:31:48.382 -->
00:32:04.601And then the other M word you use is then I start, we start to have clarity around the tough challenges that are present, and so there's a motivating, kind of galvanizing component around said issue or issues that we're working through as we've been mobilized, and then we're starting to organize.
00:32:04.601 -->
00:32:09.108We're getting down more to the grassroots of organization around respective gifts.
00:32:09.108 -->
00:32:20.066And then the other part of the kind of funnel or the hourglass takes place in orienting, kind of organizing, the different folks sending them, and then they're continually boomerang.
00:32:20.105 -->
00:32:27.201Theology is something that I there's this continual gathering back with the orienting leader to focus attention.
00:32:27.201 -->
00:32:29.770So that's kind of the way I kind of understand the.
00:32:29.770 -->
00:32:31.256Here's the bigger issue.
00:32:31.256 -->
00:32:36.737We're going to kind of mobilize down to the team component, respective gifts and then there's the sending.
00:32:36.737 -->
00:32:43.201There's a permission from the leader to go try, as we run tests, to solve said problem or problems.
00:32:43.201 -->
00:32:57.737And then we're going to, as the world changes, as I change, as our team change, we're going to continually focus or refocus the attention of the mobilized group of people solving the collective or individual problem that has been addressed.
00:32:57.737 -->
00:32:59.884Is that a fair summary, Vanessa, of the five goals?
00:33:00.295 -->
00:33:01.401I think that's a helpful image.
00:33:01.401 -->
00:33:06.982I would only add to say adaptive leadership in life in general is a continuous series of hourglasses.
00:33:07.684 -->
00:33:08.066There we go.
00:33:08.095 -->
00:33:11.740It never stops and it requires margin.
00:33:11.740 -->
00:33:18.230It requires individual margin and collective margin to live and lead in that way.
00:33:19.316 -->
00:33:20.377Okay, let's stop there.
00:33:20.377 -->
00:33:22.923I have not heard you say that I love margin.
00:33:22.923 -->
00:33:25.929Say more about the need for margin.
00:33:25.929 -->
00:33:32.178Is this, and to piggyback to your number one behavior is this is margin creating the brain space to get to the balcony.
00:33:32.178 -->
00:33:32.861Say more there.
00:33:33.342 -->
00:33:33.624Yeah.
00:33:33.624 -->
00:33:45.589So my favorite definition of margin is from a medical doctor, Richard Swenson and this is from a kind of now dated book but is applicable now more than ever called the overload syndrome.
00:33:45.589 -->
00:33:53.106So Dr Swenson defines margin as the place between our load and our limits.
00:33:53.106 -->
00:34:01.209So if you think of this image of words on a paper, margin is that white space, so the words don't fall off the paper.
00:34:01.209 -->
00:34:09.666As we consider adaptive leadership and even self-leadership, we need individual margin, but we also need collective margin.
00:34:09.666 -->
00:34:18.090So I believe, from experience, we're too busy individually and we're too busy collectively.
00:34:18.090 -->
00:34:21.880We need some white space.
00:34:21.880 -->
00:34:25.969Busyness is the enemy of transformation.
00:34:25.969 -->
00:34:39.547It's the enemy of challenging the assumptions that need to be challenged to acquire the new ways of thinking, being and being that adaptive challenges require.
00:34:41.289 -->
00:34:55.184Okay, my brain is blowing up right now, um, because many use busyness as a badge of honor and there's been a lot written, actually, in the white space.
00:34:55.184 -->
00:34:58.318Who wrote who's the one of the main thought leaders, the female leader?
00:34:58.318 -->
00:35:01.487Uh, in terms of white space, do you remember that person's name?
00:35:01.487 -->
00:35:01.876Vanessa?
00:35:02.175 -->
00:35:04.201I don't know, but I feel like I need to know who she is.
00:35:04.762 -->
00:35:07.807Well, I obviously need to as well.
00:35:07.807 -->
00:35:14.248Nonetheless, she talks a lot about the need for individual white space.
00:35:14.248 -->
00:35:33.061So the pause, the five minutes of nothing in between the conversations that take place, because the troubles and trials of the last conversation and or the opportunities are going to be diverse because you're interacting with another person but what I haven't heard is the need for collective white space.
00:35:33.061 -->
00:35:35.166So let me try to make sense of it in my context.
00:35:35.166 -->
00:35:41.485We're working in the business of multiplying disciples in a church.
00:35:41.485 -->
00:35:53.500But you can be so busy working in it that you don't set aside the time and this is used in the secular world to work on the business together as a group of people, to take the balcony view collectively.
00:35:53.500 -->
00:36:07.262The rhythm for us in our team are quarterly retreats and then the quarterly retreats move into wildly important goals and wigs and lead measures and all these types of things that are in the doing, the daily doing of things.
00:36:07.262 -->
00:36:19.416But we need a collective back away, take a broad view, and then what I've found is, as we take that broader view, there may be an issue or two that kind of come up.
00:36:19.416 -->
00:36:23.947But then together as a team, we're going to work on that issue.
00:36:23.947 -->
00:36:28.266But we need to kind of debate and nuance what's the right next step for us.
00:36:28.856 -->
00:36:32.967But I'm not able to take that right next step, collective leadership decision.
00:36:33.054 -->
00:36:51.317I can't make it unless I kind of get up and away from it to set aside space for and I like the emotional jug which is what's making you mad, sad, worried, glad, the emotional jug which is what's making you mad, sad, worried, glad, and let's just kind of clear a lot of the mad, sad, worried stuff off so that our brains can have that collective white space experience.
00:36:51.317 -->
00:37:08.686I have seen it time and time again in retreat type settings where and it's mysterious, vanessa, but something like the Holy Spirit swirls in that room and we're kind of walking through all of the possibilities, all of the challenges, and then it's like wisdom from on high drops.
00:37:08.686 -->
00:37:11.119And it's cool to see when wisdom from on high drops.
00:37:11.119 -->
00:37:13.826It very rarely drops through me, by the way.
00:37:13.826 -->
00:37:21.246It drops from someone else who said, oh my gosh, I've heard this, I've heard this, I've heard this, how about this?
00:37:21.246 -->
00:37:26.945And the whole group kind of says, ah, that's the ah, that's the right next thing.
00:37:26.945 -->
00:37:34.007Am I in the ballpark of collective margin as I give that kind of personal ministry experience, vanessa?
00:37:34.594 -->
00:37:39.666Yeah, so this is a much more fun way to unpack a theory, to go practical and then theoretical.
00:37:39.666 -->
00:37:41.077So thank you for that invitation.
00:37:41.077 -->
00:37:55.699Very practical, so if we were to now connect what you have just shared to the theory, that first adaptive leadership practice of getting on the balcony, both individually and collectively, is described in this way.
00:37:55.699 -->
00:38:12.041So Heifetz and Linsky coined the phrase moving from the dance floor to the balcony as part of adaptive leadership theory, and so they use this expression to talk about reflecting in action, so by spending time on the balcony and the dance floor.
00:38:12.041 -->
00:38:21.449That shows how leaders need to metaphorically step away and head up to the balcony while in the midst of their daily work.
00:38:21.934 -->
00:38:23.786And you shared some great story around that.
00:38:23.786 -->
00:38:36.105So if we were to riff a little longer on this literal dance floor metaphor, go back to high school, or, for those of us who work with high schoolers, you walk in the door to a literal high school dance.
00:38:36.105 -->
00:38:39.117Listen, I don't know what the boys are spraying these days.
00:38:39.117 -->
00:38:46.675Back in my day it was Axe right, so you got that going on day.
00:38:46.695 -->
00:38:47.056It was acts right.
00:38:47.056 -->
00:38:47.617So you got that going on.
00:38:47.617 -->
00:38:52.288You got the boys spraying stuff, you've got maybe groups of people in corners and then you've got someone by themselves.
00:38:52.288 -->
00:39:10.356If I'm literally on the dance floor, I'm not able to see that clearly, but if I, as you know, in my DCE days in youth ministry, if there was, say, this physical setting where I could literally walk up the stairs, stand on the balcony and look down, I would be able to describe all of that to you and more.
00:39:10.356 -->
00:39:11.378So.
00:39:11.378 -->
00:39:17.001There is this collective nature of it, and we don't want to go up to the balcony alone, but we also want to go up to the balcony alone.
00:39:17.001 -->
00:39:35.864So this is about self-leadership and it is about collective leadership, and leadership is lived both on the dance floor and on the balcony, and margin necessitates our ability to take the stairs and take them continuously.
00:39:37.780 -->
00:40:00.704So you would make the assessment that leaders spend too much time potentially on the dance floor rather than getting the Gumby legs at the very same time, because it's not a either or it's a both and and at the same time getting to the balcony.
00:40:00.704 -->
00:40:02.001Are we imbalanced?
00:40:02.001 -->
00:40:04.445Let me ask a question this way as you look at just the church and kind of ministry leaders in general, do you think that we're more in the balcony?
00:40:04.445 -->
00:40:04.614Are we imbalanced?
00:40:04.614 -->
00:40:12.681Let me ask a question this way as you look at just the church and kind of ministry leaders in general, do you think that we're more in the balcony or are we imbalanced toward the dance floor?
00:40:12.681 -->
00:40:13.485What are your thoughts there?
00:40:14.068 -->
00:40:20.141I think we are very well-practiced living in the phrase don't just stand there, do something.
00:40:20.141 -->
00:40:27.150We are not as well practiced in the phrase don't do something, just stand there.
00:40:27.150 -->
00:40:49.958We're not well practiced in that we can be busy and research shows us that in times of duress we tend to autopilot, to our default, our default the majority of leaders in any setting, nonprofit for profit.
00:40:49.958 -->
00:40:53.885Our autopilot tendency is not don't just do something, stand there.
00:40:53.885 -->
00:40:59.237It requires great intention and we can't do it alone.
00:40:59.237 -->
00:41:05.048Change requires we invite others into the process.
00:41:05.048 -->
00:41:25.630So I'm not here to give a percentage breakdown and suggest that leaders are or aren't doing something, but rather I would say as an organizational voyeur and watching churches, we're far more practiced in don't just stand there, do something.
00:41:25.630 -->
00:41:36.731And we also have a lot of practice in I'm going to outwork this problem what does that do?
00:41:37.333 -->
00:41:39.639What does that lead to when we have that perspective?
00:41:39.639 -->
00:41:40.884I'm going to outwork this problem.
00:41:40.884 -->
00:41:43.451What happens or can happen?
00:41:43.880 -->
00:41:45.806Yeah, Individual and collective burnout.
00:41:45.806 -->
00:41:47.391We and we missed the mark.
00:41:47.391 -->
00:41:51.447We missed the mark of what's in front of us.
00:41:54.003 -->
00:41:55.273How do we, how do we miss the mark?
00:41:55.273 -->
00:41:55.880Go deeper?
00:41:55.880 -->
00:41:56.561What have you seen?
00:41:56.561 -->
00:42:02.746When we missed the mark, when we're overdoing rather than over being?
00:42:02.746 -->
00:42:07.945Because I do hear the human doing and the human being kind of balance there.
00:42:07.945 -->
00:42:08.567So go ahead.
00:42:08.567 -->
00:42:09.630How do we miss the mark?
00:42:09.860 -->
00:42:10.081Yeah.
00:42:10.081 -->
00:42:18.246So as a leadership scholar, I've got to say I think we could really benefit from understanding the differences between continuous change and discontinuous change.
00:42:18.246 -->
00:42:29.887So continuous change are these continual tweaks that we're making, but they're all in line of the same way that we currently think and behave and act.
00:42:29.887 -->
00:42:32.253That's continuous changing, right.
00:42:32.253 -->
00:42:48.476Discontinuous changing are the types of changes that are hard, that require totally new ways of seeing, totally new practices and that will eventually lead to a new way of being when it becomes normal.
00:42:48.476 -->
00:43:04.190Continuous change mindset, when we need to adapt, a discontinuous change mindset, because that is the challenge and the change that is set before us.
00:43:04.190 -->
00:43:09.590So that is how we miss the mark and we, conversely, burn ourselves and others out in the process.
00:43:11.039 -->
00:43:11.902Oh, so good.
00:43:11.902 -->
00:43:13.585How is this connected to?
00:43:13.585 -->
00:43:17.411I think there's a connection to Jesus's metanoia.
00:43:17.411 -->
00:43:52.076I read the book by Alan Hirsch Metanoia, this new way of seeing, this new mindset, meta above, and it's a daily call to you could say a moment by moment here's what it sounds like for me is Tim, if you Tim, if you move too quickly or if you speak too quickly, if you judge too quickly, you may end up saying things that hurt your relationship, that damage your credibility, and this comes over time.
00:43:52.235 -->
00:43:54.077God made me a certain way.
00:43:54.077 -->
00:44:01.862I have a lot of passions and sometimes those passions can go in a way that hurts relationship, and that's the last thing that I want.
00:44:01.862 -->
00:44:27.182But I also don't want to wait too long to speak, like a clar speak and the tone in which to speak and again, I hope that tone leads people closer to rather than further away, first from Jesus and then from me, because I need what the other person offers.
00:44:27.182 -->
00:44:30.490But yeah, I've kind of gotten an excursus into metanoia.
00:44:30.490 -->
00:44:34.063Is that that is discontinuous change?
00:44:34.403 -->
00:44:58.070I'm okay and I kind of hear the balance between I'm 100% okay and at the very same time and this is very Lutheran, by the way I'm okay, I'm a saint, my baptismal identity is true, and yet I can also, at the very same time, speak about the sinner, the prideful person in me that may that rebuffs any kind of change within me or around me.
00:44:58.070 -->
00:44:59.432God don't, don't come in.
00:44:59.432 -->
00:45:03.572But yet Jesus is the, he's the vine dresser, right, and he prunes.
00:45:03.572 -->
00:45:06.284God prunes us, you know, and that's that's kind of painful.
00:45:06.284 -->
00:45:11.804So speak into that and connect it to Metanoia, the repentance journey, vanessa.
00:45:11.985 -->
00:45:12.105Yeah.
00:45:12.105 -->
00:45:17.844So here's the practical example of continuous change versus discontinuous change for the starting point, right.
00:45:17.844 -->
00:45:26.548So let's take this landscape, this adaptive challenge of we live and lead in a more decentralized way right now.
00:45:26.548 -->
00:45:31.407Thank you, world Wide Web, internet, for ushering that in right.
00:45:31.407 -->
00:45:37.704And so the continuous change mindset might say okay, I get that.
00:45:37.704 -->
00:45:39.447You know people are spread everywhere.
00:45:39.447 -->
00:45:43.708What types of communication patterns can I adopt?
00:45:43.708 -->
00:45:44.590How can I change?
00:45:44.590 -->
00:45:45.985What new thing can I adopt?
00:45:45.985 -->
00:45:47.525Let's make these changes.
00:45:47.525 -->
00:45:51.010We want to reach people where they are, in all areas of their lives.
00:45:51.800 -->
00:46:13.164Another way that we can see this landscape of people living and leading in a more decentralized way, that is, discontinuous change, would center around the question how do our faith formation practices align with people living and leading in a decentralized manner?
00:46:13.164 -->
00:46:21.496Are our current systems and structures enabling people or dis-enabling people, right?
00:46:21.496 -->
00:46:22.463So it's not this.
00:46:22.463 -->
00:46:24.128I'm only going to be about continuous change.
00:46:24.128 -->
00:46:26.047I'm only going to be about discontinuous change.
00:46:26.047 -->
00:46:46.952Listen, if we don't have a lot of margin, I may not want to make space to figure with the discontinuous change of how our spiritual formation practices aligning or not aligning with people in a decentralized life and leadership today.
00:46:46.952 -->
00:46:48.907They both require margin.
00:46:48.907 -->
00:46:54.583Discontinuous change requires more margin and how that connects with metanoia.
00:46:54.704 -->
00:47:14.130I think, in ways is this daily invitation to die to ourself first, which is what Jesus gave to us, that invitation to daily die to ourself, to take up our cross, all by the power of the Holy Spirit as he shapes and forms us through difficult things.
00:47:14.130 -->
00:47:17.768Adaptive challenges are difficult things.
00:47:17.768 -->
00:47:19.862Are we willing to die to ourself?
00:47:19.862 -->
00:47:24.016Are we willing to create space for God to do that work in us?
00:47:24.016 -->
00:47:29.588Are we willing to share the stories to those around us who trust us, thus inviting them to do the same?
00:47:29.588 -->
00:47:41.094And secondly, repentance, because part of dying to ourself is also letting go and owning where we fall short continually.
00:47:41.822 -->
00:47:42.887But it doesn't stop there.
00:47:42.887 -->
00:47:47.231It's receiving that good news of forgiveness only found in Jesus.
00:47:47.231 -->
00:47:53.432And that whole journey of turning is continual, it's ongoing.
00:47:53.432 -->
00:47:57.030It's a life of hourglasses, to borrow your visual metaphor.
00:47:57.030 -->
00:47:59.019It never stops and, quite frankly, it's kind of exhausting.
00:47:59.019 -->
00:47:59.527But it's a life of hourglasses, to borrow your visual metaphor.
00:47:59.527 -->
00:48:13.777It never stops and, quite frankly, it's kind of exhausting, but it's beautiful because god shapes us deeply through it all uh, paul's words, not that I have already attained it, but I, I press on.
00:48:14.338 -->
00:48:20.384You know, I press on toward that upward prize because christ greenfield, christ Greenfield, because Christ Jesus has made me his own.
00:48:20.384 -->
00:48:25.014I uh, uh, freudian slip, um, I, I press there's.
00:48:25.014 -->
00:48:26.101There's this both.
00:48:26.101 -->
00:48:29.148I'm okay and I'm not okay at the very same time.
00:48:29.148 -->
00:48:31.032And I have one life to live.
00:48:31.032 -->
00:48:36.528I don't want to waste it and I certainly don't want it to be characterized by me.
00:48:36.528 -->
00:48:38.893I have been crucified with Christ.
00:48:38.893 -->
00:48:45.210I no longer live, he lives in me and I think it's the best way to live.
00:48:45.210 -->
00:48:46.992It's a tension filled way.
00:48:46.992 -->
00:48:48.275Is it uncomfortable?
00:48:48.275 -->
00:48:55.932Absolutely, but the way of Jesus is adaptive leadership on overdrive for us.
00:48:55.932 -->
00:49:00.465So let's, as we're coming down the homestretch here, last last few kind of talking points.
00:49:00.465 -->
00:49:03.512You, you mentioned six leadership behaviors.
00:49:03.512 -->
00:49:08.431Just give us a walk through the others and we'll see if we maybe want to go deeper on one or two of them.
00:49:09.559 -->
00:49:16.885Yeah that that sounds good, but before we do that, I'm not listening, I'm not being very, very good but three quick things.
00:49:16.885 -->
00:49:26.389We don't need to go deeper, but if getting on the balcony is still pretty abstract for people, there's three things that are pretty critical in that.
00:49:27.440 -->
00:49:42.429Having confidants having sanctuaries and having regular practices and there could be a series of podcasts around all of that but want to give people some quick handles.
00:49:42.429 -->
00:49:55.248As you consider confidence, do you have people in your life that you can be yourself with, apart from any leadership value that you or others place on you?
00:49:55.248 -->
00:50:03.572If we're going to do the important work of walking with and holding people through adaptive leadership, we have to have confidence.
00:50:03.572 -->
00:50:10.550That could be friends, that could be mentors, that could be leadership coaches, people that we can be ourselves with.
00:50:10.550 -->
00:50:16.956Sanctuaries we're all worshiping believers who listen to this podcast.
00:50:16.956 -->
00:50:20.583I would imagine no doubt All worshiping believers who listen to this podcast.
00:50:20.583 -->
00:50:21.766I would imagine no doubt that's huge.
00:50:21.766 -->
00:50:29.123Sanctuaries also are broader in the sense of just quiet, right Going back to the margin.
00:50:29.123 -->
00:50:36.914Where are those actual places where we can go to hear ourselves think Is it a room in your house?
00:50:36.914 -->
00:50:37.614Is it a park?
00:50:37.614 -->
00:50:38.463Is it a gym?
00:50:38.463 -->
00:50:40.248Where is that physical space?
00:50:40.248 -->
00:50:46.369Yeah, practicing confidence, practicing sanctuaries.
00:50:46.369 -->
00:50:48.293And then, thirdly, just practices.
00:50:48.293 -->
00:50:57.302We need regular practices that keep us grounded and centered, and that could be a very long conversation, and so I hope those are some practical ways to look at.
00:50:57.342 -->
00:50:59.123Getting on the balcony Again, getting on the balcony Again.
00:50:59.123 -->
00:51:03.244Getting on the balcony is the first of six leader behaviors of adaptive leadership.
00:51:03.244 -->
00:51:08.327Here's quickly the two through six Second identify the adaptive challenge.
00:51:08.327 -->
00:51:10.429Three regulate distress.
00:51:10.429 -->
00:51:13.231Four maintain disciplined attention.
00:51:13.231 -->
00:51:15.932Five give the work back to the people.
00:51:15.932 -->
00:51:19.815And six protect leadership voices from below.
00:51:19.815 -->
00:51:25.117So for the people who are like whoa, this has been a lot of information.
00:51:25.117 -->
00:51:42.596I have to say I taught an entire college course at a local small college on this over a period of six months, and so my hope today is that people can walk away with a few basic things and focusing on getting on the balcony.
00:51:42.596 -->
00:51:46.831But for those big picture thinkers, those are the one to six in total.
00:51:49.601 -->
00:51:53.588I'd like to go deeper into three, if you would.
00:51:53.588 -->
00:51:56.594Which is regulating distress?
00:51:56.594 -->
00:52:04.619Would?
00:52:04.619 -->
00:52:05.221Which is regulating distress?
00:52:05.221 -->
00:52:42.664I believe we live in an ever increasingly chronically anxious culture and we move from kind of crisis to crisis, and this is being recorded eight days before the election will be released, probably shortly after we know who the president is and leaders have to regulate distress so that people can think, because there are a lot of swirling anxious forces that lead us and I'll use a systems theory that lead us toward hurting behaviors or fused behaviors, where there's kind of a group think that takes place.
00:52:42.664 -->
00:52:53.672So how does the leader, even moving from the balcony, what is their best approach in helping a group of people regulate distress?
00:52:53.672 -->
00:52:57.646Can you give us a few of those tips there, vanessa?
00:52:58.568 -->
00:53:12.764Yeah, let me first by say start by saying one of my favorite Heifetz and Lenski quotes that directly connects to this, and here it is Leadership is disappointing people at a rate they can absorb.
00:53:12.764 -->
00:53:14.184Right.
00:53:14.184 -->
00:53:16.927So, as we consider the practice of regulating distress.
00:53:18.347 -->
00:53:39.782The leader is this curator of listening and offering tough words and tough questions at a rate to which that individual in that group in front of them can handle, because without some shifting and some changing, we're not going to be able to challenge our current ways of thinking and being so that we could even consider new ways.
00:53:39.782 -->
00:53:57.458We have to have some sort of disorientation, tim, and so there's this art around it, so it's not only the words we choose, but how we show up the trust that is between the other to know that it's coming from a good place, and so this work is deeply psychological.
00:53:57.458 -->
00:54:01.822It's coming from a good place, and so this work is deeply psychological deeply sociological.
00:54:01.842 -->
00:54:11.038Yes, agree, and I'm regulating my distress and wanting to apply this to the broader system of the Lutheran Church Missouri Synod.
00:54:11.038 -->
00:54:12.105So I'm just going to set that aside.
00:54:12.105 -->
00:54:17.461We don't need to do that just yet, but I think there is a time and a place for that.
00:54:17.461 -->
00:54:43.096To be honest, to regulate the distress and to provide the appropriate amount of just words of caution around the areas that we could be moving into that are less than helpful for the church in these wild times where the church needs to raise up very, very healthy leaders who can that is one of my favorite phrases disappoint people at a rate they can handle.
00:54:43.096 -->
00:54:59.682And to get very practical at the local level I mean, here's what it kind of sounds like for me is praise God, we just got that thing done the campaign, the building, the leadership development pathway, the, whatever the system feels like.
00:54:59.682 -->
00:55:04.523It's more secure now We've got our church engagement model, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
00:55:04.523 -->
00:55:05.465But here's what I kind of say.
00:55:06.228 -->
00:55:27.271There's always another thing If you get comfortable thinking, oh, we've won, we've accomplished, rather than the other thing necessitating us to come together to collectively problem solve with the whole hourglass thing we were talking about, if your goal is to be done with the things and you should.
00:55:27.271 -->
00:55:35.664This is a word of law then you should probably not be a leader in the local church, where adaptive challenges are absolutely the norm Every single day.
00:55:35.664 -->
00:55:37.047We never arrive.
00:55:37.047 -->
00:55:39.293It truly is the infinite game.
00:55:39.293 -->
00:55:40.561Thank you, Simon Sinek.
00:55:40.561 -->
00:55:50.648There's always going to be more for us, and so it doesn't end until Jesus says it ends, either in this life and in, obviously, the life to come.
00:55:50.648 -->
00:55:57.177So anything more to say about the role of the leader in regulating distress as we're coming?
00:55:57.197 -->
00:55:57.599down the stretch.
00:55:57.599 -->
00:56:03.905I think it goes back to just piggyback on what you just shared about a lead leader's willingness to be about this work.
00:56:03.905 -->
00:56:10.130Is this constant reminder that while it begins with a lead leader, the lead leader doesn't own it right?
00:56:10.130 -->
00:56:17.260Earlier, on the very front end, I shared that quote that people have long confused the notion of leadership with authority, power and influence.
00:56:17.260 -->
00:56:20.483People have long confused the notion of leadership with authority, power and influence.
00:56:20.483 -->
00:56:42.797So are we collectively, and thus then systemically pushing it down individually, allowing pastors to see leadership as a practice, as an activity that all people do some of the time, because it can be intimidating and overwhelming to let that sit on your shoulders as the lead leader?
00:56:51.780 -->
00:56:58.356I walk with countless leaders in the local context where I see Satan using that in very unhealthy ways.
00:56:58.356 -->
00:56:59.318Yeah, that makes me sad.
00:57:10.420 -->
00:57:13.313That makes me sad, that makes me sad and that uh, if Jesus had friends and partners who helped him accomplish the mission Luke 9, luke 10, the sending um, and even the humanity of and I also see those stories.
00:57:13.217 -->
00:57:13.818I also see those stories too.
00:57:13.818 -->
00:57:14.936So it's oh yeah, it's a mixed bag, yeah, yeah.
00:57:15.056 -->
00:57:20.711So I guess the whole thing about regulating distress is how are we regulating our own distress?
00:57:20.711 -->
00:57:23.309This goes back to getting on the balcony, right.
00:57:23.309 -->
00:57:30.012Regulating the stress is not something we do as a leader to another person or to another system.
00:57:30.012 -->
00:57:39.773We ourselves are part of the system and so, without using jargony words, we can see a system as an emotional system.
00:57:39.773 -->
00:57:43.951The church, and really any organization for that matter, is living alive.
00:57:43.951 -->
00:57:56.893We are comprised of people, so, in short, it is an emotional system as any group of people who spend time together, and so leaders don't regulate the distress of those other people who are spending time together.
00:57:56.893 -->
00:57:58.326They are in the mix.
00:57:58.326 -->
00:58:01.224That's what I was thinking about on that.
00:58:01.224 -->
00:58:01.806Yeah, yeah.
00:58:02.907 -->
00:58:03.329I love it.
00:58:03.329 -->
00:58:03.871I love it.
00:58:03.871 -->
00:58:09.378There are so many kind of overlaps between the adaptive leadership theory and family systems theory.
00:58:09.378 -->
00:58:16.090Bowen, family systems theory, Pete Steinke, Edwin Friedman Failure of Nerve.
00:58:16.090 -->
00:58:20.909Failure of Nerve is a book that I kind of reread about once a year or so, so good.
00:58:20.909 -->
00:58:21.891Are there any other?
00:58:21.891 -->
00:58:23.326So we've dropped a few different books.
00:58:23.326 -->
00:58:28.039Are there any other books that allow people to go deeper into the topic of adaptive leadership?
00:58:28.039 -->
00:58:30.568We've mentioned Leadership on the Line, for sure.
00:58:30.568 -->
00:58:32.425Any other books you would say?
00:58:32.927 -->
00:58:33.148Yeah.
00:58:33.148 -->
00:58:38.972So as far as Leadership on the Line, I'm a big fan, those of you watching it on YouTube.
00:58:38.972 -->
00:58:48.197Here's what it looks like it looks kind of old school, looking early 2000s, but it's called the practice of adaptive leadership tools and tactics for changing your organization in the world.
00:58:48.197 -->
00:59:00.672It's by Heifetz, graschau and Linsky, and so essentially it takes the concepts of the book leadership on the line and it frames it in such a way with lots of practical examples and templates for how to practice it.
00:59:00.672 -->
00:59:06.748It was the course textbook I used when I taught the class, and so I believe it's incredibly valuable.
00:59:06.748 -->
00:59:08.572I know you mentioned Friedman.
00:59:08.572 -->
00:59:10.063I actually have that on my pile.
00:59:10.063 -->
00:59:10.786That's foundational.
00:59:10.806 -->
00:59:12.300Edwin Friedman, a Failure of Nerve.
00:59:12.300 -->
00:59:13.184Highly recommend that.
00:59:13.184 -->
00:59:15.150And the last book I brought I could have brought you.
00:59:15.150 -->
00:59:20.563I could have brought you a lit review for my dissertation, but I decided not to do that.
00:59:20.563 -->
00:59:21.164This is in second edition.
00:59:21.164 -->
00:59:22.204I highly recommend it.
00:59:22.204 -->
00:59:24.509It's called the Leader's Journey.
00:59:24.509 -->
00:59:28.875The Leader's Journey Accepting the Call to Personal and Congregational Transformation.
00:59:28.875 -->
00:59:46.139These authors two of the three, anyhow are ones that I researched with for my dissertation, and so have been friends with them for over 20 years, and I believe that they have provided a great collection of theory, story, practical application and reflection.
00:59:46.139 -->
00:59:50.039I would definitely commend that in the area of practicing adaptive leadership.
00:59:50.800 -->
00:59:51.221Hey.
00:59:51.221 -->
00:59:55.969So if you are in the Pacific Southwest District, you are in for a treat.
00:59:55.969 -->
00:59:59.414As Dr Seifert comes, here is the summary.
00:59:59.414 -->
01:00:02.346We just touched on kind of the high level stuff.
01:00:02.346 -->
01:00:09.070We're hoping this and I think we accomplished the goal is a catalyst for you to come and dig deeper with your team.
01:00:09.070 -->
01:00:11.643This is the power of learning this with your team.
01:00:11.643 -->
01:00:12.766Here's the keynote summary.
01:00:13.067 -->
01:00:15.052People don't fear change, they fear loss.
01:00:15.052 -->
01:00:17.085That's Seifert and Lenski.
01:00:17.085 -->
01:00:24.902We resist change because we fear the loss we believe we will find on the other side of change and you hear that so often the fear of change.
01:00:24.902 -->
01:00:27.427It's not just fear of change, it's loss.
01:00:27.427 -->
01:00:34.693So those losses are hard to define, but they trend toward our sense of competence, our status or the way we navigate through the world.
01:00:34.693 -->
01:00:46.583When faced with an adaptive challenge, our first instinct is to preserve and conserve, to remain intact, rather than make room for the new creation begging to be born into this world.
01:00:46.583 -->
01:00:55.168In this session, this wonderful keynote, we will learn to get on the balcony and see yourself as a system and the key practices in adaptive leadership.
01:00:55.168 -->
01:00:57.313So this was so much fun.
01:00:58.202 -->
01:01:03.931Dr Seifert, you are a gift to me, a gift to the body of Christ, specifically in the Lutheran Church Missouri Synod.
01:01:03.931 -->
01:01:14.733I'm thankful for your voice, your voice especially in this time, this time where there is chronic anxiety within the world and definitely within the church.
01:01:14.733 -->
01:01:45.313How are we going to solve the various problems and I could go down the laundry list of various problems that need the adaptive balcony to dance floor metaphor for us to adequately engage all the respective voices so that leaders can be raised up and lowered to be with the people, to let the body of Christ use all of her gifts and, ultimately, the Holy Spirit to speak and to work and to change, and to let us know, in the midst of change, in the midst of loss, we're going to be okay.
01:01:45.313 -->
01:01:59.806Christ is on the throne and he is coming back to make all things new and he simply wants us to be faithful, using our collective gifts in the body of Christ to steward them well, not just for us, and I guess we didn't go here.
01:01:59.806 -->
01:02:28.329I'll close to this kind of evangelical call, but the world is watching and they will know the love of Jesus by the way that we love one another, how we care for one another, not how we isolate and divide from one another, but how we embrace the difficult conversations, the regulating distress opportunities to disappoint people at a rate they can handle, and may it all be toward a kingdom expanding focus.
01:02:28.621 -->
01:02:30.628This is what the leaders kind of focus on.
01:02:30.628 -->
01:02:32.626What is the primary problem?
01:02:32.626 -->
01:02:37.952If you get right down to it, it's a sin problem and people are riddled with sin, which equals selfishness.
01:02:37.952 -->
01:02:45.275And Jesus has come to make all things new and he wants to make us whole and I really believe the work and the word and the way of Jesus.
01:02:45.275 -->
01:02:56.811The adaptive leadership style of Jesus has a profound impact to change our individual churches and our church body to be more healthy as we carry forward the never changing gospel of Jesus Christ.
01:02:56.811 -->
01:02:57.742Any closing comments?
01:02:57.742 -->
01:02:58.985Dr Seifert, this has been fun.
01:02:59.326 -->
01:03:00.648You know you wrapped it up well.
01:03:00.648 -->
01:03:04.445I don't think I have anything else to add other than adaptive.
01:03:04.445 -->
01:03:06.851Leadership affects everyone.
01:03:06.851 -->
01:03:08.722It begins and continues with the leader.
01:03:08.722 -->
01:03:11.929It takes time to change hearts and minds.
01:03:11.929 -->
01:03:15.402It takes time to change institutions.
01:03:15.402 -->
01:03:16.806Don't grow weary.
01:03:16.806 -->
01:03:18.632We have the strength of the Holy Spirit.
01:03:18.632 -->
01:03:20.427Thanks for the conversation, tim.
01:03:20.768 -->
01:03:22.094Yeah, the joy is mine.
01:03:22.094 -->
01:03:30.753If you want to follow and get connected to Vanessa, you can find her at Vanessa Seifert S-E-I-F-E-R-Tcom.
01:03:30.753 -->
01:03:31.501This is Lead Time.
01:03:31.501 -->
01:03:33.465Sharing is caring Like, subscribe, comment.
01:03:33.465 -->
01:03:40.490We're growing on YouTube, praise God, and honestly, we love the YouTube conversations.
01:03:40.490 -->
01:03:42.969When you disagree, you can leave comments.
01:03:42.969 -->
01:03:45.789This sounds like a whole bunch of psychological mumbo jumbo.
01:03:45.789 -->
01:03:47.286We may get some of that kind of stuff.
01:03:47.286 -->
01:03:49.588I think it's deeply theological, to be quite honest.
01:03:49.588 -->
01:03:53.318So, yeah, leave comments, even if they're disagreeing.
01:03:53.318 -->
01:03:56.869Comments so we can grow more and more up into Jesus, who is our head.
01:03:56.869 -->
01:03:59.742We'll be back later on this week for another episode of Lead Time.
01:03:59.802 -->
01:04:02.885Thank you so much, vanessa, thank you and innovative methods To partner with us in this gospel message.
01:04:02.885 -->
01:04:27.672Subscribe to our channel, then go to theuniteleadershiporg to create your free login for exclusive material and resources and then to explore ways in which you can sponsor an episode.
01:04:27.672 -->
01:04:31.021Thanks for listening and stay tuned for next week's episode.
