Tackling plastic pollution from coast to coast with Charlie Rolsky

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Plastic did not become one
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of our most widely used materials
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on accident. Plastic
is cheap, it's durable,
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flexible. It's very, very
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useful.
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Plastic has a function,
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and until you replace that
function, it's gonna stick around.
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And stick around it does.
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Of the 9 billion tons of plastic
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that humanity has ever produced,
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7 billion tons has become plastic waste.
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In the United States, only about 5%
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of plastic is recycled every year.
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The rest of it ends up in
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landfills or the environment.
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From Arizona State University,
welcome to Lab Coat Optional,
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the show where advanced research
meets everyday curiosity.
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I'm your host, Pete Zrioka
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and today's guest is a friend of mine.
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Charlie Rolsky is an ASU-trained scientist
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who has a better understanding
of how much plastic sticks
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around than most of us.
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His work has taken him
from coast to coast,
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studying microplastic
pollution in marine life
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to wastewater systems and the human body.
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He's the executive director of
the Shaw Institute in Maine,
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exploring the effects
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of plastic pollution on
the environment, as well
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as potential links
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between plastic accumulation in our bodies
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and chronic diseases.
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We talk trade-offs,
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greenwashing, the state of
Maine - new England's best state -
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and why progress in the fight
against plastic pollution is
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rarely as simple as just swapping out one
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material for another.
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Charlie, welcome to the show.
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Look at us. - Look at
us. - Look at us.
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Look at us. - Yeah. We
were for being scolded,
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for talking too much to now getting paid
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talk too much! - to talk even more.
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Yeah. Yeah. This is really special.
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I appreciate you coming
all the way from the
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great state of Maine to our - Absolutely.
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to our Arizona studio in February.
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I know there's not a lot to get outta,
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get you outta Maine in February, right?
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Oh, it's lovely. Yeah,
it's really lovely.
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Like the heaps of snow and all
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of the great restaurants closing.
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It's just the place to be.
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Yeah. The black ice.
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Oh, it's just tremendous.
Yeah. But it preserves people.
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Like our friends are in their eighties
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and they're totally fine and working full
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time. It's a preservative
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Well, okay. Yeah.
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Goals. And then out
here the sun is just like,
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Yeah. It tries to kill you.
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Yeah, exactly. Yeah. It's a good mix.
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You are known
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for your background in
microplastics research. Can...
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When did you originally become interested
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in this field of study?
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I was working with killer whales,
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and they only ate Chinook salmon.
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And I kept finding these
in their fecal samples
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that didn't feel like bone from a fish,
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and then it ended up being plastic.
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And then you kept, I, I
would wonder why is it
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that a 30-foot animal
would have something in it
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that's five millimeters in size?
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Sure. - And then that took
me to Arizona State,
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and I started asking that
question with my advisor,
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and an idea was born.
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Well, that's kind of an upsetting thing
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to find plastic in this
big, beautiful animal,
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right? - Yeah. It didn't
make any sense to me.
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I knew about bioaccumulation,
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but that's not something you
visibly see if it's something
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like mercury or DDT.
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So when you say bioaccumulation,
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you mean like the buildup
of something within a body?
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Yeah. I mean, you,
you, you have a couple
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ambient pieces in the water,
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right? A couple pieces of plastic.
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A shrimp eats two pieces,
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and then something eats 20 shrimps.
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So you're multiplying it, you know, by 10.
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So now that thing goes from two to 20,
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and then whatever eats that
thing, and then it goes from
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20 to a hundred.
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And then by the time it
reaches us, we're, you know,
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talking several hundred pieces.
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Not good for us -
bioaccumulation of plastic.
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I'm also gonna assume
it's not good for whales.
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Yeah.
So what were you finding
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that was detrimental to the whales
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because of all this plastic
in their food source?
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One of the, one of the difficult parts
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of this research is it's hard
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to prove something came from
one thing when there's a range
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of pollutants around us, right?
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Light pollution, noise
pollution, chemical pollution.
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There's a lot of different
things happening at once.
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But we do know that there's a range
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of threats associated with them.
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Okay.
So they can have things stick
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to the surface that are bad for us.
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They, the internal
chemistry, we've all heard,
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like PVC piping, VC stands
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for vinyl chloride, which is a carcinogen.
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So there's things inside that are bad,
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things outside that they're bad.
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And if it's a small enough animal,
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just the physical
particle can be a problem.
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Right. - But one of the
most difficult things in this
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field is it's hard to
prove one negative effect
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came from one pollutant.
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Okay.
When there's a lot of pollutants.
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Microplastics, there's
a lot of them, right?
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Yes. - And when I, when I
say a lot of them, they kind
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of permeate the environment
you are specifically
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and are still specifically
focused on marine ecosystems,
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but they're not just
there, they're kind of
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everywhere. Do I have that right?
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Yeah. Yeah. We focus mostly
on environmental health.
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That was my interest. I like people,
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but I don't wanna work on
people, not the kind of doctor.
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Sure.
But as being a nonprofit in this day
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and age, things have
changed a little bit for us.
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Oh! - I, I. But anyways, so
we, we sort of, we don't lead
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as much as we sort of listen
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to the demand of the research world.
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And the demand is now human health.
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Okay.
You're finding it in oysters.
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Yeah.
Are you finding it in us? Right.
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Can you find it in us?
Can we send you samples?
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So we're now listening to that demand,
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and that's the new course
of the field, is looking at
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how these things affect humans,
which is, it's terrifying,
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but it's also kind of nice
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because we have that
connection to the environment
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where usually humans look at
the environment, like separate
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of us, but we all, like you eat haddock.
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Yeah.
Seals eat haddock. I eat haddock.
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So it's good that we're kind
of seeing that connection now.
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So you said this terrifying.
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Are there aspects of this work
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that like, keep you up at night?
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Not really.
No?
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No. No. And I kind of owe,
I owe that to being in a lab
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where they really liked
plastic while it's being used,
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but they really hated
it in the environment.
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Okay.
So I learned a lot more about
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what could affect us negatively and,
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and the overall perception
of plastic pollution,
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where I do see it being
sensationalized a bit.
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And I do see the really
scary headlines and,
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I've kind of learned to sort
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of separate the two from each other.
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We don't want them in our body,
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but what is the actual
effect of them being there?
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If you, if there's a plastic bottle
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floating in the ocean, yeah.
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Maybe it can turn into a microplastic.
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Maybe it just accumulates
barnacles and floats.
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Hmm.
And maybe it doesn't do anything. - Right.
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So it's important to sort of
discern between those two,
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make sure that we're actually
finding a negative impact.
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Is there anything
about this kind of work
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that gives you hope then?
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Because you said it's terrifying,
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but are are, are there, are
there hope hopeful aspects
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to what you're studying right now?
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There are. And that I think that again,
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comes from my postdoc, where,
where people understood that
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plastic has a function.
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And until you replace that
function with something that's
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kind of in the same price range,
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and that's is, I don't know, it's durable.
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All the good things that
makes plastic useful to us.
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Until you replace that function,
it's gonna stick around.
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But there's more companies that
are focusing on innovation,
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material science, and they're
replicating that function
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with something that is actually
okay for the environment.
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That's what I, I'm really, really
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enamored with that approach.
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Recycling's catching up, the
new innovation's catching up.
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So I think we're on a really good path.
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It's just, yeah, we've made a lot of it.
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We don't have a good
infrastructure to handle it,
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so it's gonna be a big burden for us.
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But I think we're in a really good place.
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One of your most cited
studies looked at laundry pods.
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Oh, yeah. That's a good one.
I know this got you in
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hot water in a few different
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ways. - Every day.
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But specifically the, the
polyvinyl alcohol in them.
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Now these things were
marketed as just dissolving.
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So what happens when it
dissolves in the dishwasher
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or your washing machine?
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It's, we have this word solubility.
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It's kind of a weird chemistry
term that I don't know
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as much about, but if you
think about an empty cup
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that you just pour salt
into, you can see the
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salt. - Yeah.
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But when you put water in it,
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you don't see the salt
anymore. - Right. - Or with sugar.
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But if you drink it, you taste it.
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So it's still in there, it's
just not visible to the eye.
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Okay.
And this polymer was, was designed
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to, to act in the same way.
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So when it interacts
with water, it dissolves
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and it releases the stuff from one.
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It behaves really well.
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They set it up for that
function. And it does that thing.
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The problem is we kind
of confuse solubility
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with biodegradability kind
of, I don't if I made that up,
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but it's a word now.
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It tracks. Yeah. Yeah. - I'll just say it.
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I don't see it anymore. It's
not in the
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environment.
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Yeah. So that's,
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that's the mistake that we kind of made.
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And it was marketed as being
biodegradable, plastic-free
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eco-friendly, vegan, all these things.
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Not really true. I mean, it's,
it, there's a big focus on
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that, but for me, the
focus should still be,
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it's a fossil fuel-derived material.
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Yeah. - We're still going
for oil to, to make it.
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Yeah.
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That sucks.
Yeah.
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So, so that's problem one.
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And then problem two is
Yeah, it, it dissolves,
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but it doesn't, it's
not biodegradable fully,
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unless there's the most giant asterisk
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of all time is right
next to biodegradable.
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Right. Yeah. Is that
illustrative of something about
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how we talk about like eco-friendly
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or biodegradable materials and products?
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Yes. This is a field
that, that really scares me
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because these words carry a big impact.
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Biodegradable, eco-friendly,
natural, GMO-free.
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There are these big words
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that don't necessarily
have a good definition.
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So what is biodegradable?
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That's the problem.
That's where it starts.
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Yeah. - Anything is
biodegradable over millennia.
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Right. Given enough time.
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Right.
Yeah.
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00:09:10,870 --> 00:09:12,780
So what are the, like
under what circumstances
253
00:09:12,780 --> 00:09:16,205
and what time, what conditions,
how do we define the word?
254
00:09:16,205 --> 00:09:18,060
And because the word is
a little bit loosey goosey,
255
00:09:18,060 --> 00:09:19,950
then the companies can say,
yeah, that's biodegradable.
256
00:09:19,950 --> 00:09:21,420
Right?
I'll find a definition
257
00:09:21,420 --> 00:09:23,670
where this is biodegradable
and they slap it on there.
258
00:09:23,670 --> 00:09:24,750
It's a marketing term,
Right?
259
00:09:24,750 --> 00:09:27,210
Yeah. - But the problem is,
if you look at the conditions
260
00:09:27,210 --> 00:09:28,890
that need that are needed, you have
261
00:09:28,890 --> 00:09:30,240
to have the right microbes.
262
00:09:30,240 --> 00:09:32,820
The microbes have to
be trained to eat PVA.
263
00:09:32,820 --> 00:09:34,830
It has to be the same temperature,
264
00:09:34,830 --> 00:09:37,350
the same food availability, the same pH.
265
00:09:37,350 --> 00:09:39,270
None of those happen in the environment.
266
00:09:39,270 --> 00:09:42,000
We have big temperature
changes from midday to evening.
267
00:09:42,000 --> 00:09:43,020
Yeah.
So there's no way
268
00:09:43,020 --> 00:09:44,310
that all those conditions are the same.
269
00:09:44,310 --> 00:09:47,190
But if you set up those
conditions in a lab
270
00:09:47,190 --> 00:09:49,260
and you put PVA in it, yeah.
It's biodegradable. Sure.
271
00:09:49,260 --> 00:09:50,430
Totally.
But where in the
272
00:09:50,430 --> 00:09:51,780
environment does that ever happen?
273
00:09:51,780 --> 00:09:53,190
Yeah, it
doesn't. - Okay.
274
00:09:53,190 --> 00:09:55,200
So that's the biggest
asterisk of all time.
275
00:09:55,200 --> 00:09:57,480
And it's a lot of greenwashing.
276
00:09:57,480 --> 00:10:01,140
So when this stuff
dissolves becomes soluble
277
00:10:01,140 --> 00:10:02,140
Yeah.
278
00:10:02,140 --> 00:10:02,973
And goes down the drain, it goes into
279
00:10:02,973 --> 00:10:03,875
wastewater systems, right?
280
00:10:03,875 --> 00:10:06,990
It does. And then ultimately
those wastewater systems go
281
00:10:06,990 --> 00:10:08,550
where? - They, so,
282
00:10:08,550 --> 00:10:11,670
so wastewater in general is
a really good thing, right?
283
00:10:11,670 --> 00:10:13,080
So the solids leave our
284
00:10:13,080 --> 00:10:14,080
house. - Yep.
285
00:10:14,080 --> 00:10:15,030
And then it gets treated.
286
00:10:15,030 --> 00:10:16,830
So it doesn't really
smell as much, there's not
287
00:10:16,830 --> 00:10:18,600
as many pathogens, things like that.
288
00:10:18,600 --> 00:10:20,280
And it reduces the volume.
289
00:10:20,280 --> 00:10:21,270
And then you have fertilizer
290
00:10:21,270 --> 00:10:22,500
and that's normally a great thing.
291
00:10:22,500 --> 00:10:24,450
Yeah! - And, and when we worked
at a wastewater treatment
292
00:10:24,450 --> 00:10:26,010
plant, they said it smells like money.
293
00:10:26,010 --> 00:10:29,610
It didn't, it smelled awful.
Awful. But I get it.
294
00:10:29,610 --> 00:10:30,780
Because you're basically taking
295
00:10:30,780 --> 00:10:31,926
waste and profiting off of it.
296
00:10:31,926 --> 00:10:34,680
So it's a good thing.
So PVA would survive it.
297
00:10:34,680 --> 00:10:36,930
We found that about 25% of it breaks down.
298
00:10:36,930 --> 00:10:39,750
75% goes into mostly the solid waste.
299
00:10:39,750 --> 00:10:41,430
Okay.
So then three quarters
300
00:10:41,430 --> 00:10:42,630
of it's in the solid waste.
301
00:10:43,920 --> 00:10:45,510
And then what happens?
I don't know, it goes,
302
00:10:45,510 --> 00:10:48,270
it's either land applied or it's burned
303
00:10:48,270 --> 00:10:50,310
or sent to a landfill.
304
00:10:50,310 --> 00:10:51,690
Okay. - And,
305
00:10:52,635 --> 00:10:54,690
and other plastics in that scenario,
306
00:10:54,690 --> 00:10:56,550
they don't have a great impact.
307
00:10:56,550 --> 00:10:58,230
And then with PVA, if I ask that question,
308
00:10:58,230 --> 00:11:00,000
there's a little evidence
suggesting that it's bad,
309
00:11:00,000 --> 00:11:01,710
but it's just not studied.
310
00:11:01,710 --> 00:11:03,900
No one's looked into this
and that makes me nervous.
311
00:11:03,900 --> 00:11:05,430
Okay. Laundry pods, et cetera.
312
00:11:06,600 --> 00:11:07,680
That's a source of
313
00:11:07,680 --> 00:11:09,120
microplastics ending
up in the environment.
314
00:11:09,120 --> 00:11:11,160
Both in the ocean, I assume,
315
00:11:11,160 --> 00:11:12,810
and also in land, like in landfill
316
00:11:12,810 --> 00:11:14,910
and like applied to agricultural fields.
317
00:11:14,910 --> 00:11:17,340
So that's having a similar
stacking effect, right?
318
00:11:18,210 --> 00:11:20,790
That's another weird area.
It's not a microplastic.
319
00:11:20,790 --> 00:11:23,040
It's not? - It's not. I
don't know what it is.
320
00:11:23,040 --> 00:11:26,220
It's soluble. So it
turns into particles.
321
00:11:26,220 --> 00:11:29,370
Does it remain like little PVA tidbits?
322
00:11:29,370 --> 00:11:31,920
Is it breaking down into something else?
323
00:11:31,920 --> 00:11:34,170
We don't know, but that's
another reason why the
324
00:11:34,170 --> 00:11:35,190
industry goes after us.
325
00:11:35,190 --> 00:11:38,550
Because they'll say, "Ha! it's
biodegradable under these
326
00:11:38,550 --> 00:11:41,100
conditions and it's not a microplastic.
327
00:11:41,100 --> 00:11:42,630
We're all, we're good. Let's, let's,
328
00:11:42,630 --> 00:11:44,160
let's market it as being eco-friendly."
329
00:11:44,160 --> 00:11:45,750
I had all these questions framed around
330
00:11:45,750 --> 00:11:47,460
that being a microplastic,
but it's not.
331
00:11:47,460 --> 00:11:48,460
It's scarier than that.
332
00:11:48,460 --> 00:11:50,850
Yeah. - Right. A microplastic
can get sequestered
333
00:11:50,850 --> 00:11:53,230
somewhere if it's really small.
334
00:11:53,230 --> 00:11:54,640
Maybe it's getting stuck in places a
335
00:11:54,640 --> 00:11:56,290
microplastic doesn't get stuck.
336
00:11:56,290 --> 00:11:57,520
Maybe it's maybe instead
337
00:11:57,520 --> 00:12:00,430
of a microplastic ruining
the soil when it gets land
338
00:12:00,430 --> 00:12:02,920
applied, maybe this gets
sucked up by the plant.
339
00:12:03,790 --> 00:12:05,380
Have you continued looking into this
340
00:12:05,380 --> 00:12:06,790
after that paper
341
00:12:06,790 --> 00:12:09,340
that I believe you published
while you're at ASU, right?
342
00:12:09,340 --> 00:12:12,310
Yeah. I published that at
ASU during like peak COVID.
343
00:12:12,310 --> 00:12:13,720
We're still doing the work now.
344
00:12:13,720 --> 00:12:15,970
It's just hard to pay for it.
It's very expensive.
345
00:12:15,970 --> 00:12:17,950
But we work with a soil
company that, that looks at
346
00:12:17,950 --> 00:12:20,410
how contaminants can affect
not only soil health,
347
00:12:20,410 --> 00:12:22,240
but plant health, especially
plants that we eat.
348
00:12:22,240 --> 00:12:23,800
So we do continue the work.
349
00:12:23,800 --> 00:12:27,250
And our research inspired a bio-based pod
350
00:12:27,250 --> 00:12:28,450
that has no plastic in it,
351
00:12:28,450 --> 00:12:30,430
that's made from Maine
kelp and Maine seaweed,
352
00:12:30,430 --> 00:12:31,430
Dego sea farms.
353
00:12:31,430 --> 00:12:34,090
Right. - Dirigo Sea Farm.
Yeah. Okay. For, for those.
354
00:12:34,090 --> 00:12:36,610
Not in the know Dirigo is on Maine's flag.
355
00:12:36,610 --> 00:12:38,380
It's on Maine's everything.
Yeah. - It's on
356
00:12:38,380 --> 00:12:40,960
Dirigo plumbing, Dirigo washing
machine. I mean everything.
357
00:12:40,960 --> 00:12:44,065
Yeah. Yeah. But it's cool.
Let's talk about Maine. You
358
00:12:44,065 --> 00:12:45,035
And Dirigo!
359
00:12:45,035 --> 00:12:46,035
And Dirigo!
360
00:12:46,035 --> 00:12:49,600
You, you, you went from
the desert to the northeast.
361
00:12:49,600 --> 00:12:52,300
You now direct the Shaw Institute.
362
00:12:52,300 --> 00:12:56,050
Yes. - Can you tell me
what you're focused on there?
363
00:12:56,050 --> 00:12:59,410
What the Shaw Institute is,
and how you ended up in Maine?
364
00:12:59,410 --> 00:13:03,550
I graduated and
I was eager for a job
365
00:13:03,550 --> 00:13:06,450
and I wanted to stick around at ASU,
366
00:13:06,450 --> 00:13:08,470
but I think ASU was tired of me.
367
00:13:08,470 --> 00:13:10,330
Oh yeah.
So I looked elsewhere.
368
00:13:10,330 --> 00:13:11,590
I found a cool position.
369
00:13:11,590 --> 00:13:13,480
Dr. Susan Shaw was hiring,
370
00:13:13,480 --> 00:13:15,550
and during the hiring process,
she actually passed away.
371
00:13:15,550 --> 00:13:16,750
She had cancer. - Oh, wow. Okay.
372
00:13:16,750 --> 00:13:19,060
And so I kind of
inherited this fixer upper
373
00:13:19,060 --> 00:13:20,080
of an organization.
374
00:13:20,080 --> 00:13:21,700
And I, I'm not good at a lot of things,
375
00:13:21,700 --> 00:13:23,500
but I'm good at fixing things like that.
376
00:13:23,500 --> 00:13:25,690
So we got everything set up and,
377
00:13:25,690 --> 00:13:27,910
and we just looked at what
was big focuses in Maine,
378
00:13:27,910 --> 00:13:29,290
and that's ecosystem health,
379
00:13:29,290 --> 00:13:31,150
health of the water, making
sure that aquaculture
380
00:13:31,150 --> 00:13:32,740
and the seafood is healthy.
381
00:13:32,740 --> 00:13:34,810
And I wanted to carry
forward a lot of projects
382
00:13:34,810 --> 00:13:35,830
that I had done at ASU.
383
00:13:35,830 --> 00:13:38,290
And, and so we kind of
hit the ground running.
384
00:13:38,290 --> 00:13:40,270
And it's been a, it's been a big success.
385
00:13:40,270 --> 00:13:41,890
I, I actually lived in
Montana for a long time,
386
00:13:41,890 --> 00:13:43,600
so people would say like,
"Oh, you're from Arizona.
387
00:13:43,600 --> 00:13:46,030
Get ready for the winter." And
I, I was like, "this little,
388
00:13:46,030 --> 00:13:47,170
this little amount of snow?"
389
00:13:47,170 --> 00:13:48,880
Yeah. Gimme a break. It's a different
390
00:13:48,880 --> 00:13:50,050
kind of winter in Montana.
391
00:13:50,050 --> 00:13:51,490
Yeah. It is a different, although this,
392
00:13:51,490 --> 00:13:52,600
this winter in Maine was pretty
393
00:13:52,600 --> 00:13:54,040
significant. We got a
decent amount of snow.
394
00:13:54,040 --> 00:13:58,210
But it's temperate. I mean,
like, yeah. It's not dry. - No.
395
00:13:58,210 --> 00:14:00,670
Like blowing wind all the time.
396
00:14:00,670 --> 00:14:01,670
No.
You know,
397
00:14:01,670 --> 00:14:03,070
And we're down east,
down east is, is kind
398
00:14:03,070 --> 00:14:04,510
of like protected from everything else.
399
00:14:04,510 --> 00:14:06,250
It's not the north. I'm a little
scared of Northern Maine.
400
00:14:06,250 --> 00:14:07,420
I don't know what's up there, but
401
00:14:07,420 --> 00:14:09,500
I've never been, I've
literally never been.
402
00:14:09,500 --> 00:14:10,333
See, there's probably a reason for that.
403
00:14:10,333 --> 00:14:12,915
Yeah. So you've worked on
marine eco ecosystems before.
404
00:14:12,915 --> 00:14:14,710
Yeah. You did that
before you came to ASU.
405
00:14:14,710 --> 00:14:16,450
You did it while you were here working on
406
00:14:17,560 --> 00:14:20,290
bioaccumulation in marine mammals.
407
00:14:20,290 --> 00:14:23,025
I assume that all translated
pretty easily to Maine's coast.
408
00:14:23,025 --> 00:14:24,880
It's a, it's a very maritime state, right?
409
00:14:24,880 --> 00:14:26,680
It is. Yeah. Yeah. And we're a big focus
410
00:14:26,680 --> 00:14:28,990
of ours is looking at
PFAS chemicals as well.
411
00:14:28,990 --> 00:14:30,850
So, so that's, we have a repository
412
00:14:30,850 --> 00:14:32,980
of marine mammal tissue there.
413
00:14:32,980 --> 00:14:34,690
We have sea lions on the west coast.
414
00:14:34,690 --> 00:14:36,010
And those things are like Michael Phelps.
415
00:14:36,010 --> 00:14:37,360
'cause there's sharks around, they're like
416
00:14:37,360 --> 00:14:38,470
in and out of the water.
417
00:14:38,470 --> 00:14:40,600
Right. Seals don't have
any predators in Maine.
418
00:14:40,600 --> 00:14:42,640
They just lay, they lay
and they eat and they poop.
419
00:14:42,640 --> 00:14:44,170
And that's it. It's just great life.
420
00:14:44,170 --> 00:14:46,510
And they literally, one of
their poses a scientific
421
00:14:46,510 --> 00:14:48,310
description is a banana pose.
422
00:14:48,310 --> 00:14:50,020
'cause it's so happy
423
00:14:50,020 --> 00:14:52,850
and fat that it's tail, it,
it's like a tail of the head.
424
00:14:52,850 --> 00:14:55,310
It's a banana shape. - Adorable.
It's just laying. Yeah.
425
00:14:55,310 --> 00:14:56,870
So unfortunately some pass away
426
00:14:56,870 --> 00:14:58,790
because there's just no predators.
427
00:14:58,790 --> 00:15:00,650
But we can look at their
bodies as indicators
428
00:15:00,650 --> 00:15:02,690
of environmental health,
their top tier predators,
429
00:15:02,690 --> 00:15:04,190
things move up the food chain.
430
00:15:04,190 --> 00:15:06,380
So we, we do a lot of work
with marine mammals and,
431
00:15:06,380 --> 00:15:07,825
and PFAS and that's been a big thing.
432
00:15:07,825 --> 00:15:09,260
PFAS and Maine is a big thing.
433
00:15:09,260 --> 00:15:12,530
And PFAS, maybe a more well known turn
434
00:15:12,530 --> 00:15:13,850
is forever chemicals. Right?
435
00:15:13,850 --> 00:15:16,250
Yeah. Yeah. They're, people think about
436
00:15:16,250 --> 00:15:17,300
their non-stick pans.
437
00:15:18,170 --> 00:15:19,490
A lot of times PFAS was used
there. So the chemicals a
438
00:15:19,490 --> 00:15:20,540
really good water repellent.
439
00:15:20,540 --> 00:15:23,030
It handles high heat, waterproof clothing,
440
00:15:23,030 --> 00:15:24,140
firefighting foams.
441
00:15:24,140 --> 00:15:25,250
It's, again, it's something
442
00:15:25,250 --> 00:15:27,650
that serves a really important function,
443
00:15:27,650 --> 00:15:29,450
but it has these really bad effects.
444
00:15:29,450 --> 00:15:31,640
Yeah. - It's, but it's still
something where if we were
445
00:15:31,640 --> 00:15:33,020
to say to a firefighter, do you want your
446
00:15:33,020 --> 00:15:34,280
PPE to have flame retardant?
447
00:15:34,280 --> 00:15:36,500
They're gonna say, yeah, I
don't want to catch on fire.
448
00:15:36,500 --> 00:15:38,870
So it's important to use
it. It's just, long term
449
00:15:38,870 --> 00:15:41,870
it's got a, a lot, a range
of really bad health effects.
450
00:15:41,870 --> 00:15:45,260
I just mentioned Maine
is a very maritime place,
451
00:15:45,260 --> 00:15:49,100
culturally, economically, everything.
452
00:15:49,100 --> 00:15:53,600
So you, does the intersection
of industry ecology
453
00:15:53,600 --> 00:15:56,270
and community ever make
454
00:15:56,270 --> 00:15:58,285
what you're doing there
feel very personal?
455
00:15:58,285 --> 00:16:00,620
You, you have a front row seat to what
456
00:16:01,550 --> 00:16:03,230
pollution is doing to the coast.
457
00:16:04,250 --> 00:16:05,690
Does that make you resent the companies
458
00:16:05,690 --> 00:16:07,070
that are responsible
for this type of thing?
459
00:16:08,030 --> 00:16:09,135
I don't resent them.
460
00:16:09,135 --> 00:16:10,760
I, I always try to think about
461
00:16:10,760 --> 00:16:15,020
how progress is a giant table
Where I have Maine farmers
462
00:16:15,020 --> 00:16:18,200
or fishermen, and then I
have sustainability experts.
463
00:16:18,200 --> 00:16:19,280
I have a health expert.
464
00:16:19,280 --> 00:16:22,040
I have someone that does economics and,
465
00:16:22,040 --> 00:16:23,990
and I have someone that
does material science.
466
00:16:23,990 --> 00:16:26,690
And I can say, alright,
we've identified this thing
467
00:16:26,690 --> 00:16:27,860
as having a negative effect.
468
00:16:27,860 --> 00:16:30,560
So what do you need big
company from this material?
469
00:16:30,560 --> 00:16:31,580
And they might say, it has to be
470
00:16:31,580 --> 00:16:32,960
durable, it has to be heat resistant.
471
00:16:32,960 --> 00:16:36,110
Okay. What, how much
does it cost to do that?
472
00:16:36,110 --> 00:16:37,580
And then economic person, and then I go
473
00:16:37,580 --> 00:16:38,690
to the material science person, Hey,
474
00:16:38,690 --> 00:16:39,830
is there anything in nature that we could
475
00:16:39,830 --> 00:16:40,910
use to replicate that?
476
00:16:40,910 --> 00:16:42,410
Right. - And the material
science person might say,
477
00:16:42,410 --> 00:16:43,490
you know, you could synthesize,
478
00:16:43,490 --> 00:16:44,990
you could take something from seaweed
479
00:16:44,990 --> 00:16:47,060
and that might replicate
what's in plastic.
480
00:16:47,060 --> 00:16:48,350
Yeah.
And then I would say, okay,
481
00:16:48,350 --> 00:16:50,330
well the biggest obstacle here is funding.
482
00:16:50,330 --> 00:16:52,400
And then I would have that
big company at the table
483
00:16:52,400 --> 00:16:55,250
because they have a big
pocketbook - wallet.
484
00:16:55,250 --> 00:16:58,610
What am I, 80? Okay. - You're
from Maine now. - Oh, stop.
485
00:16:58,610 --> 00:17:02,690
Be nice. But
essentially that's the ecosystem
486
00:17:02,690 --> 00:17:04,400
that creates positive change
487
00:17:04,400 --> 00:17:05,420
because you wanna make something
488
00:17:05,420 --> 00:17:07,910
that rivals the
functionality and the price.
489
00:17:07,910 --> 00:17:09,050
And then once you do, I mean,
490
00:17:09,050 --> 00:17:10,220
all these companies could benefit
491
00:17:10,220 --> 00:17:11,420
from being more sustainable.
492
00:17:11,420 --> 00:17:13,190
Yeah.
So I don't ever vilify them.
493
00:17:13,190 --> 00:17:15,170
I don't try to think about it negatively.
494
00:17:15,170 --> 00:17:18,020
But it is pretty special to
talk to the lobstermen there
495
00:17:18,020 --> 00:17:21,740
who are traditionally not
really eager to be into science,
496
00:17:21,740 --> 00:17:22,910
But say to them, "Hey, have you noticed
497
00:17:22,910 --> 00:17:24,320
any trends with the lobster?"
498
00:17:24,320 --> 00:17:27,440
"Yeah. They're not coming down
as often and they're smaller.
499
00:17:27,440 --> 00:17:30,290
"My catch is going down." "Well,
why do you think that is?"
500
00:17:30,290 --> 00:17:33,080
"The watah's gettin' warmah.
Watah's gettin' warmah."
501
00:17:33,080 --> 00:17:35,450
And it's, it's kind of,
it's like, - That's pretty good.
502
00:17:35,450 --> 00:17:36,770
We don't have to, we don't have
503
00:17:36,770 --> 00:17:38,030
to, I don't have to argue with you.
504
00:17:38,030 --> 00:17:39,110
Like you, you know it,
505
00:17:39,110 --> 00:17:41,300
and you're probably more of
an expert than me about the
506
00:17:41,300 --> 00:17:42,320
health of the ecosystem here
507
00:17:42,320 --> 00:17:44,450
and that that hits pretty close to home.
508
00:17:44,450 --> 00:17:45,890
But it does make me feel better
509
00:17:45,890 --> 00:17:48,960
because, I'm sorry to throw
out Arizona under the bus.
510
00:17:48,960 --> 00:17:50,760
I used to yell at people
about water use out here
511
00:17:50,760 --> 00:17:52,950
and say, listen, we're
running outta water.
512
00:17:52,950 --> 00:17:55,410
And then they're going and
watering their lawn at noon.
513
00:17:55,410 --> 00:17:57,930
Well, you should listen to
our episode with Rhett Larson
514
00:17:57,930 --> 00:18:00,900
because he's adamant that
we're not running outta water.
515
00:18:00,900 --> 00:18:02,285
We're running outta cheap water.
516
00:18:02,285 --> 00:18:03,570
Right.
So,
517
00:18:03,570 --> 00:18:04,570
Right.
518
00:18:04,570 --> 00:18:05,490
But we still have to be like, Hey people,
519
00:18:05,490 --> 00:18:07,830
maybe don't fill your pool up
and water your lawn at noon
520
00:18:07,830 --> 00:18:09,720
and maybe have a xeriscaped area.
521
00:18:09,720 --> 00:18:12,150
We need to be more water
conscious here, for sure.
522
00:18:12,150 --> 00:18:15,630
Absolutely. - Yes. Yes.
But in terms of working
523
00:18:15,630 --> 00:18:19,530
with fishermen, as you
noted, they see impact,
524
00:18:19,530 --> 00:18:22,620
they see climate impacts
to their livelihood.
525
00:18:22,620 --> 00:18:26,910
I think the, the catch last year was down
526
00:18:26,910 --> 00:18:28,350
by like 18% or something.
527
00:18:28,350 --> 00:18:29,880
Yeah. Because they're getting smaller.
528
00:18:29,880 --> 00:18:32,430
The water's getting warmer. And so yeah.
529
00:18:32,430 --> 00:18:34,050
That's their way of life.
530
00:18:34,050 --> 00:18:35,940
Stuff like you're doing with trying
531
00:18:35,940 --> 00:18:39,570
to find sustainable solutions
for these materials,
532
00:18:39,570 --> 00:18:43,170
kelp is a big one that can
replace, maybe not replace,
533
00:18:43,170 --> 00:18:45,816
but supplement their job, right? - Yeah,
534
00:18:45,816 --> 00:18:46,816
Yeah.
535
00:18:46,816 --> 00:18:47,649
Yeah. It helps the
economy in that way too.
536
00:18:47,649 --> 00:18:50,370
Yeah. Yeah. And you've got,
you, you look at replacements
537
00:18:50,370 --> 00:18:52,515
as a, as a way to move forward.
538
00:18:52,515 --> 00:18:54,330
So, so a lot of docks, they're buoyant.
539
00:18:54,330 --> 00:18:56,555
They're they're held above the
water with styrofoam. - Yeah.
540
00:18:56,555 --> 00:18:58,050
That sucks. Styrofoam is probably my
541
00:18:58,050 --> 00:18:59,100
least favorite material in the world.
542
00:18:59,100 --> 00:19:00,600
It breaks up really easy.
Right.
543
00:19:00,600 --> 00:19:02,280
So, so you can replace
it with something else.
544
00:19:02,280 --> 00:19:04,770
Or buoys, styrofoam,
replace it with something.
545
00:19:04,770 --> 00:19:06,630
And that's been done. They're
using mushrooms out there,
546
00:19:06,630 --> 00:19:08,220
I think, to replicate buoys.
547
00:19:08,220 --> 00:19:11,250
But the thing that I hammer home to people
548
00:19:11,250 --> 00:19:13,500
that are interested in
sustainability is an idea
549
00:19:13,500 --> 00:19:15,330
of something that you
might put into place is
550
00:19:15,330 --> 00:19:16,830
maybe step three of 10.
551
00:19:16,830 --> 00:19:18,360
We're getting there. Okay.
552
00:19:18,360 --> 00:19:20,670
So, so what you would do, and
I, I kind of joke about this.
553
00:19:20,670 --> 00:19:23,580
I, I basically say, if you'd
want me to like flick your nose
554
00:19:23,580 --> 00:19:24,480
or kick you really hard in the
555
00:19:24,480 --> 00:19:25,650
shin, which one would you rather have?
556
00:19:25,650 --> 00:19:27,300
And you might say probably the nose flick,
557
00:19:27,300 --> 00:19:28,740
but in a perfect world, neither.
558
00:19:28,740 --> 00:19:30,990
Yeah. - But I'll choose
the, the nose flick.
559
00:19:30,990 --> 00:19:32,466
That's kind of the science.
560
00:19:32,466 --> 00:19:33,780
So in that scenario, I might say,
561
00:19:33,780 --> 00:19:34,890
okay, let's replace styrofoam.
562
00:19:34,890 --> 00:19:37,440
'cause it sucks. But you're
gonna put like a polycarbonate
563
00:19:37,440 --> 00:19:39,600
slab underneath it and
someone might go, "Well,
564
00:19:39,600 --> 00:19:41,010
it's plastic still."
565
00:19:41,010 --> 00:19:43,920
Yeah, it is, but it's not
disintegrating in the water.
566
00:19:43,920 --> 00:19:47,880
Yeah. - That, that is, is
what we kind of have to accept.
567
00:19:47,880 --> 00:19:49,710
We have to, we have to
understand that we're,
568
00:19:49,710 --> 00:19:51,150
we're getting there,
569
00:19:51,150 --> 00:19:53,670
but it's gonna take
some steps to get there.
570
00:19:53,670 --> 00:19:56,310
And, and that actually
happened with a lab in Maine.
571
00:19:56,310 --> 00:19:59,340
I have to tell this story.
Sun Chips are bomb. Okay.
572
00:19:59,340 --> 00:20:01,140
Yeah. I like sun chips.
They put the garden
573
00:20:01,140 --> 00:20:02,250
salsa on, on the plane.
574
00:20:02,250 --> 00:20:04,140
I, that's, I'm not a fan of
that one, but they're good.
575
00:20:04,140 --> 00:20:05,235
Okay. - Classic all the way for me,
576
00:20:05,235 --> 00:20:06,068
Right? Yeah.
577
00:20:06,068 --> 00:20:06,600
Yeah. Classic.
Yeah.
578
00:20:06,600 --> 00:20:09,660
They came up with the idea
for a compostable chip bag.
579
00:20:09,660 --> 00:20:13,260
Oh yeah. - And they tested
the chip bag in Augusta, Maine
580
00:20:13,260 --> 00:20:16,020
with the lab that I used
for my PVA research.
581
00:20:16,020 --> 00:20:18,240
They came up with the idea and it worked.
582
00:20:18,240 --> 00:20:19,410
And they were so proud of it.
583
00:20:19,410 --> 00:20:22,350
They paid for a Super Bowl
ad, which is very expensive.
584
00:20:22,350 --> 00:20:24,630
I do remember this. - Yeah.
And then it hit the shelves
585
00:20:24,630 --> 00:20:26,880
and people opened the bag
and found it to be too loud.
586
00:20:26,880 --> 00:20:30,030
So they stopped buying
it. If I'm Sun Chips,
587
00:20:30,030 --> 00:20:31,890
I'm using twice the amount of plastic.
588
00:20:31,890 --> 00:20:32,970
And I'm saying on the label,
589
00:20:32,970 --> 00:20:34,500
throw this directly in the ocean.
590
00:20:34,500 --> 00:20:35,730
W why, why are we this
591
00:20:35,730 --> 00:20:36,750
way? - Yeah.
592
00:20:36,750 --> 00:20:38,580
They, they thought it was too loud?
593
00:20:38,580 --> 00:20:40,355
Well, you know...
594
00:20:40,355 --> 00:20:42,000
I know you sneak in the
kitchen late at night,
595
00:20:42,000 --> 00:20:43,350
but deal with your issues.
596
00:20:43,350 --> 00:20:46,140
Like whatever, it's what, too loud.
597
00:20:46,140 --> 00:20:49,030
And they stopped by Sun Chips wanted Lays
598
00:20:49,030 --> 00:20:51,280
and all these other companies
to use this technology.
599
00:20:51,280 --> 00:20:53,170
Charlie, it fundamentally
changes the experience
600
00:20:53,170 --> 00:20:55,600
of eating chips if it's too loud.
601
00:20:55,600 --> 00:20:58,150
So much so that we're gonna
double down on using plastic.
602
00:20:58,150 --> 00:21:01,660
Yeah! - That's a problem.
Environment be damned,
603
00:21:01,660 --> 00:21:04,660
I want a quiet chip bag!
You want a quiet chip bag?
604
00:21:04,660 --> 00:21:06,940
No, not that badly. - Right,
exactly. But that's my point.
605
00:21:06,940 --> 00:21:08,650
And people, people will look at something
606
00:21:08,650 --> 00:21:11,620
and say, well, it's not
perfect. I don't want it.
607
00:21:11,620 --> 00:21:14,177
I wanna ask about the
mushroom buoy thing real quick.
608
00:21:14,177 --> 00:21:15,583
Yeah. Mycelium.
609
00:21:15,583 --> 00:21:18,700
Okay. So one of the hallmarks in my mind
610
00:21:18,700 --> 00:21:22,510
of Maine is like every other
house has like old buoys,
611
00:21:22,510 --> 00:21:24,820
like hanging on their
mailbox or their door or
612
00:21:24,820 --> 00:21:25,660
something. - Yeah.
613
00:21:26,565 --> 00:21:29,170
I love it. - Which I think is
very quaint, and I love that.
614
00:21:29,170 --> 00:21:32,350
Would the mushroom ones just
like deteriorate so quickly
615
00:21:32,350 --> 00:21:34,720
that you wouldn't be able
to have fun decorations like
616
00:21:34,720 --> 00:21:35,720
That?
617
00:21:35,720 --> 00:21:36,760
Yeah. So, so I can tell you right now
618
00:21:36,760 --> 00:21:38,800
that if you implement them,
if you use the the mushroom
619
00:21:38,800 --> 00:21:41,110
buoys, they're not gonna last as long
620
00:21:41,110 --> 00:21:42,310
and they're probably
gonna be more expensive.
621
00:21:42,310 --> 00:21:43,690
Yeah.
But they'll fall apart into something
622
00:21:43,690 --> 00:21:45,400
that's not gonna have a bad
effect on the environment.
623
00:21:45,400 --> 00:21:48,490
But that's, that's that, again,
that intersection we get to
624
00:21:48,490 --> 00:21:51,640
where you have to say, I'm
gonna use it, take a little bit
625
00:21:51,640 --> 00:21:53,020
of a bath maybe financially.
626
00:21:53,020 --> 00:21:56,170
But I'm gonna use it
because I, I want this idea
627
00:21:56,170 --> 00:21:57,310
to, to get momentum.
628
00:21:57,310 --> 00:21:58,630
And I want other companies to say,
629
00:21:58,630 --> 00:21:59,830
no, no, I'm gonna do that too.
630
00:21:59,830 --> 00:22:01,420
So I'm gonna enter the race
and make a cheaper one.
631
00:22:01,420 --> 00:22:04,420
And all this stuff. Competition
is what breeds innovation.
632
00:22:04,420 --> 00:22:06,760
And that, that, I want that to happen.
633
00:22:06,760 --> 00:22:08,620
I don't want people to
reject things at face value
634
00:22:08,620 --> 00:22:09,670
because they're not happy with it.
635
00:22:09,670 --> 00:22:13,690
Sure. So, okay. Gotta
take a small digression.
636
00:22:13,690 --> 00:22:15,790
I grew up in Maine. I'm a, I'm a Mainer.
637
00:22:15,790 --> 00:22:17,620
Yeah.
You now live in Maine.
638
00:22:17,620 --> 00:22:19,990
Yeah. How do you like
living in Maine? - I love Maine.
639
00:22:19,990 --> 00:22:21,460
Okay.
I lived in Montana.
640
00:22:21,460 --> 00:22:24,850
I lived in California,
Washington state, Arizona,
641
00:22:24,850 --> 00:22:26,350
those former three things states I
642
00:22:26,350 --> 00:22:27,700
mentioned It's just a mix of those.
643
00:22:27,700 --> 00:22:29,680
Like, I got there and I
immediately felt I smelled the
644
00:22:29,680 --> 00:22:31,450
woods and it smelled like California.
645
00:22:31,450 --> 00:22:33,550
I saw the coast, it looked
like Washington. - Yep.
646
00:22:33,550 --> 00:22:35,140
And then the winter makes
me think of Montana.
647
00:22:35,140 --> 00:22:36,340
It is so familiar to me now.
648
00:22:36,340 --> 00:22:39,670
My wife born and raised in Yuma, Arizona.
649
00:22:39,670 --> 00:22:41,170
So it was a risk, like
she was either gonna
650
00:22:41,170 --> 00:22:42,490
die or she's gonna love it.
651
00:22:42,490 --> 00:22:44,350
Yeah.
And she had never had seasons before.
652
00:22:44,350 --> 00:22:47,320
So when the leaves changed, it
broke her in a positive way.
653
00:22:47,320 --> 00:22:48,580
And she, she loves it.
654
00:22:48,580 --> 00:22:50,770
She does her outreach and
education at Shaw Institute
655
00:22:50,770 --> 00:22:52,180
and it's, so
656
00:22:52,180 --> 00:22:54,040
that was the thing I was most
worried about. I'll be fine.
657
00:22:54,040 --> 00:22:55,510
Yeah.
But she,
658
00:22:55,510 --> 00:22:57,100
I don't think she could
ever live somewhere else
659
00:22:57,100 --> 00:22:58,180
without seasons.
660
00:22:58,180 --> 00:22:59,380
I love Maine. The,
661
00:22:59,380 --> 00:23:01,510
I've never felt more community in my life.
662
00:23:01,510 --> 00:23:03,220
Fun fact about Maine. It
663
00:23:03,220 --> 00:23:04,990
has more coastline than California.
664
00:23:04,990 --> 00:23:05,990
Yeah.
You knew that?
665
00:23:05,990 --> 00:23:07,120
Did you know that? - Yeah. I heard the,
666
00:23:07,120 --> 00:23:08,230
the one I heard was if you were
667
00:23:08,230 --> 00:23:10,540
to stretch the coastline
out a straight line,
668
00:23:10,540 --> 00:23:12,520
it would go from Maine to California.
669
00:23:12,520 --> 00:23:13,870
Oh, I've never heard that
One before. Yeah.
670
00:23:13,870 --> 00:23:15,250
I mean, they're just making stuff up.
671
00:23:15,250 --> 00:23:17,200
It comes out to like 3,400 miles.
672
00:23:17,200 --> 00:23:18,550
So that about sounds right.
673
00:23:18,550 --> 00:23:20,595
I believe it is. There's
so much stuff out there.
674
00:23:20,595 --> 00:23:22,240
Well, it's just like
all craggy and jaggy
675
00:23:22,240 --> 00:23:23,240
And little inlets.
676
00:23:23,240 --> 00:23:25,420
Yeah. It's not pretty coast.
I mean, it's angry rocks.
677
00:23:25,420 --> 00:23:27,580
No, I mean, our idea, a Mainer's idea
678
00:23:27,580 --> 00:23:29,650
of a day at the beach is
like freezing cold water in a
679
00:23:29,650 --> 00:23:30,910
bunch of like boulders.
680
00:23:30,910 --> 00:23:32,650
Yeah. Or or tide pooling.
Yeah. Or tide pool.
681
00:23:32,650 --> 00:23:35,170
Tide pooling is awesome.
Absolutely rips. Yeah.
682
00:23:35,170 --> 00:23:37,030
And, and we actually
have a 200 gallon touch
683
00:23:37,030 --> 00:23:38,530
tank now where I work.
684
00:23:38,530 --> 00:23:41,410
It's a, it's a nice little
way to, to educate people and,
685
00:23:41,410 --> 00:23:42,640
and talk about the critters there.
686
00:23:42,640 --> 00:23:43,900
And it's, it's, they have some
687
00:23:43,900 --> 00:23:45,290
awesome, hearty creatures there.
688
00:23:45,290 --> 00:23:47,630
And you are currently part
689
00:23:47,630 --> 00:23:50,900
of a study looking at possible
links between plastics
690
00:23:50,900 --> 00:23:51,980
and Alzheimer's disease.
691
00:23:51,980 --> 00:23:53,960
Mm.
Can you tell me a little bit about that?
692
00:23:53,960 --> 00:23:57,530
Yeah. I'm partnering with
a researcher, Diego Mastroeni,
693
00:23:57,530 --> 00:23:58,790
I think I've never said his last name.
694
00:23:58,790 --> 00:24:00,740
So Diego. I'm sorry
if I said it wrong.
695
00:24:00,740 --> 00:24:02,930
So he basically was one of
those folks that said, I, I,
696
00:24:02,930 --> 00:24:04,910
I look at this disease
697
00:24:04,910 --> 00:24:07,910
and I study maybe biomarkers
that suggest it's getting worse
698
00:24:07,910 --> 00:24:10,670
and could plastic be
something that makes it worse?
699
00:24:10,670 --> 00:24:12,710
And, and he said like,
could you create a method
700
00:24:12,710 --> 00:24:14,120
to work with brain tissue?
701
00:24:14,120 --> 00:24:16,790
And for me, that, that
hits really, really close
702
00:24:16,790 --> 00:24:19,580
to home just because a
lot of samples we get,
703
00:24:19,580 --> 00:24:21,980
whether it's placenta or GI tract,
704
00:24:21,980 --> 00:24:23,240
that person is still around.
705
00:24:23,240 --> 00:24:24,800
But these are coming from sample,
706
00:24:24,800 --> 00:24:26,450
these are samples coming from
people that aren't around
707
00:24:26,450 --> 00:24:27,450
anymore.
708
00:24:27,450 --> 00:24:30,260
And that, that it
just hits really close.
709
00:24:30,260 --> 00:24:32,150
So, so we started working with him
710
00:24:32,150 --> 00:24:33,920
and started applying for federal funding.
711
00:24:35,030 --> 00:24:38,240
And we're, we're hopeful that
we, we get some to secure,
712
00:24:38,240 --> 00:24:39,560
you know, this research partnership,
713
00:24:39,560 --> 00:24:41,090
but it's, it's, I never thought the
714
00:24:41,090 --> 00:24:42,320
research would go in this direction.
715
00:24:42,320 --> 00:24:43,730
Well, it's currently funded by the
716
00:24:43,730 --> 00:24:45,140
Arizona Alzheimer's Consortium.
717
00:24:45,140 --> 00:24:46,880
Yes. I think, yes. Yeah.
We got a, we got a grant
718
00:24:46,880 --> 00:24:49,640
with the Arizona Alzheimer's
consortium or coalition.
719
00:24:49,640 --> 00:24:50,690
Okay.
Which is wonder, which is a
720
00:24:50,690 --> 00:24:51,950
wonderful step in the right direction.
721
00:24:51,950 --> 00:24:53,270
We applied for a, a proposal
722
00:24:53,270 --> 00:24:55,820
through the NIH would just love
723
00:24:55,820 --> 00:24:57,050
to be able to say there's no effect.
724
00:24:57,050 --> 00:24:58,280
We're not finding any plastics.
725
00:24:58,280 --> 00:24:59,720
Right.
But it's also a weird time
726
00:24:59,720 --> 00:25:01,130
because there was a study that came out
727
00:25:01,130 --> 00:25:03,050
that said there's a spoons
worth of plastic in the brain.
728
00:25:03,050 --> 00:25:05,420
And it's under a little
scrutiny at the moment.
729
00:25:05,420 --> 00:25:08,360
I wanna talk about the
spoonful of plastic in the brain,
730
00:25:08,360 --> 00:25:11,840
because you are a pretty
visible science communicator.
731
00:25:11,840 --> 00:25:14,660
I wanted to specifically about
the spoon in the plastic.
732
00:25:14,660 --> 00:25:16,070
Very sensationalist. Right?
733
00:25:16,070 --> 00:25:17,240
Yeah.
Got a lot of attention.
734
00:25:17,240 --> 00:25:18,410
Yeah.
Mega clicks. Right.
735
00:25:18,410 --> 00:25:20,870
Awesome. - Right.
But how do you
736
00:25:22,100 --> 00:25:26,210
then balance getting attention,
but getting it responsibly?
737
00:25:26,210 --> 00:25:29,840
Because there, there's
a middle ground there
738
00:25:29,840 --> 00:25:31,100
where you can be credible
739
00:25:31,100 --> 00:25:33,020
and not talk about a whole spoon's
740
00:25:33,020 --> 00:25:34,190
worth of plastic in your brain.
741
00:25:34,190 --> 00:25:36,950
Right. - Which turned out to
be not necessarily accurate.
742
00:25:36,950 --> 00:25:40,250
Yeah. This, this is a
really important concept
743
00:25:40,250 --> 00:25:42,830
and it's a little bit
sensitive with, with any type
744
00:25:42,830 --> 00:25:44,240
of new research, there's
gonna be something
745
00:25:44,240 --> 00:25:46,340
where you maybe walk it back a little bit.
746
00:25:46,340 --> 00:25:49,250
Yeah.
Put yourself in my shoes.
747
00:25:49,250 --> 00:25:52,520
I applied for, for a conference
with my PVA research.
748
00:25:52,520 --> 00:25:54,380
Sure.
Just an update on our work.
749
00:25:55,940 --> 00:25:57,260
When you, when you put in a, a session
750
00:25:57,260 --> 00:25:59,270
or an abstract, there's
a chance for the media
751
00:25:59,270 --> 00:26:00,680
to look at them and the
media might call you
752
00:26:00,680 --> 00:26:02,690
and say, "Hey, you know,
I wanna do a story about
753
00:26:02,690 --> 00:26:04,130
what you're working on."
Which happened to me.
754
00:26:04,970 --> 00:26:08,450
And they said, "Does this
material, if it's in your body,
755
00:26:08,450 --> 00:26:11,810
cause cancer?" I have two
routes I can go.
756
00:26:11,810 --> 00:26:14,720
Route one is, having
something foreign in your
757
00:26:14,720 --> 00:26:16,610
body can cause inflammation.
758
00:26:16,610 --> 00:26:18,590
Inflammation is a precursor to cancer.
759
00:26:18,590 --> 00:26:20,540
Yeah.
Therefore, it could cause cancer.
760
00:26:20,540 --> 00:26:23,090
Option two is, "I don't
have any evidence right now
761
00:26:23,090 --> 00:26:26,120
to suggest that." I went with option two
762
00:26:26,120 --> 00:26:27,080
and she said, "I'm gonna run a
763
00:26:27,080 --> 00:26:28,910
different story then, on something else."
764
00:26:28,910 --> 00:26:31,400
That happens a lot in science.
765
00:26:31,400 --> 00:26:33,320
And it's unfortunate with,
766
00:26:33,320 --> 00:26:35,000
with the plastic and the brain study.
767
00:26:35,000 --> 00:26:36,500
So that instrument that that guy
768
00:26:36,500 --> 00:26:38,300
used, I have that instrument.
769
00:26:38,300 --> 00:26:40,970
It's one of the most
sensitive you can use.
770
00:26:40,970 --> 00:26:42,650
It basically turns whatever,
771
00:26:42,650 --> 00:26:43,950
whatever you put in it into a gas
772
00:26:43,950 --> 00:26:45,630
and it reads the gases.
It's called a mass spec.
773
00:26:45,630 --> 00:26:47,850
Okay. Yeah.
Now you're made outta
774
00:26:47,850 --> 00:26:49,860
carbon and I'm made outta carbon.
775
00:26:49,860 --> 00:26:50,910
Yeah. Plastic's made outta carbon.
776
00:26:50,910 --> 00:26:53,190
Yeah.
The instrument,
777
00:26:53,190 --> 00:26:55,560
because it's so early in its usage,
778
00:26:55,560 --> 00:26:59,310
can accidentally mistake fat for plastic.
779
00:26:59,310 --> 00:27:01,680
And, and the technology
hasn't caught up to the point
780
00:27:01,680 --> 00:27:03,240
that the, the companies can,
781
00:27:03,240 --> 00:27:05,430
can integrate it into their
software to be able to say, no,
782
00:27:05,430 --> 00:27:06,690
this, this peak
783
00:27:06,690 --> 00:27:09,630
or this signal that
didn't come from, from fat
784
00:27:09,630 --> 00:27:11,430
that came from the plastic.
We're not there yet.
785
00:27:11,430 --> 00:27:13,770
Yeah. So when you,
there's a lot of fat in your
786
00:27:13,770 --> 00:27:15,510
brain. - It's 60% fat.
787
00:27:15,510 --> 00:27:18,030
Yeah. - So if you're not careful,
788
00:27:18,030 --> 00:27:20,160
when you look at the data at face value,
789
00:27:20,160 --> 00:27:22,680
it's gonna say there is a ton
790
00:27:22,680 --> 00:27:24,780
of plastic in your brain. Polyethylene.
791
00:27:24,780 --> 00:27:27,600
Yeah. - This instrument,
the best comparison I heard
792
00:27:27,600 --> 00:27:29,730
for it, it's like going to a full symphony
793
00:27:29,730 --> 00:27:31,140
and trying to figure out which instrument
794
00:27:31,140 --> 00:27:32,820
is playing B minor.
795
00:27:32,820 --> 00:27:34,770
It's that sensitive. It's really hard
796
00:27:34,770 --> 00:27:37,050
to find something within the
797
00:27:37,050 --> 00:27:38,670
cacophony. Is that, is that the word?
798
00:27:38,670 --> 00:27:39,730
That's a good word.
Yeah. Yeah.
799
00:27:39,730 --> 00:27:41,910
Cacophony of stuff that
it's able to sort of see,
800
00:27:41,910 --> 00:27:43,440
and there's a lot of things
happening in our body
801
00:27:43,440 --> 00:27:45,030
and it, it's able to see all of them.
802
00:27:45,030 --> 00:27:47,070
And you're trying to pick
out one little thing.
803
00:27:47,070 --> 00:27:48,780
You took me in a different
direction than I thought.
804
00:27:48,780 --> 00:27:50,790
Because you're talking about
responsibly communicating.
805
00:27:50,790 --> 00:27:51,790
Yes.
Right?
806
00:27:51,790 --> 00:27:52,860
Yes.
Without sensationalism.
807
00:27:52,860 --> 00:27:54,240
Yes.
Pulling back
808
00:27:54,240 --> 00:27:56,670
to just looking at science
communication in general,
809
00:27:56,670 --> 00:27:59,010
do you think that scientists have a,
810
00:27:59,010 --> 00:28:01,170
a greater responsibility
to just communicate,
811
00:28:01,170 --> 00:28:03,540
period? Especially now.
812
00:28:03,540 --> 00:28:07,290
I think there is a massive
lack of demand for that.
813
00:28:07,290 --> 00:28:08,280
Okay.
There's no incentive
814
00:28:08,280 --> 00:28:09,224
to be a good science communicator,
815
00:28:09,224 --> 00:28:10,330
Really?
816
00:28:10,330 --> 00:28:11,163
No. Okay. You're supposed
817
00:28:11,163 --> 00:28:12,420
to present at a conference and teach.
818
00:28:13,320 --> 00:28:14,940
That's it.
819
00:28:14,940 --> 00:28:17,850
I try to communicate now
with students that I,
820
00:28:17,850 --> 00:28:21,035
as a scientist, I can be in
this, this chair with you.
821
00:28:21,035 --> 00:28:22,350
This
Is good for your career.
822
00:28:22,350 --> 00:28:24,270
Yeah.
It makes you a better communicator.
823
00:28:24,270 --> 00:28:26,040
It makes you be able to
promote your messaging.
824
00:28:26,040 --> 00:28:28,095
Right. Thought you were talking
about my career.
825
00:28:28,095 --> 00:28:29,610
Both of our careers. Yeah.
I mean, this is good.
826
00:28:29,610 --> 00:28:30,690
This is good stuff. I'll say some
827
00:28:30,690 --> 00:28:32,040
controversial stuff,
you'll get a headline.
828
00:28:32,040 --> 00:28:34,470
Excellent! - But this is
really a positive thing.
829
00:28:34,470 --> 00:28:36,900
You can get paid to give lectures.
830
00:28:36,900 --> 00:28:38,340
I mean, it's a, it's a good thing,
831
00:28:38,340 --> 00:28:40,560
but it, it needs to be incentivized.
832
00:28:40,560 --> 00:28:42,240
And there, there's, there's
just none of it right now.
833
00:28:42,240 --> 00:28:46,110
But I think it's so amazing
if you can talk to, you know,
834
00:28:46,110 --> 00:28:47,250
a 10-year-old that comes by
835
00:28:47,250 --> 00:28:48,960
and asks you about your
work, if you can communicate
836
00:28:48,960 --> 00:28:50,550
what you do, it's a big win.
837
00:28:50,550 --> 00:28:51,690
Yeah.
And that just makes you
838
00:28:51,690 --> 00:28:54,030
so much more important
to the field of science.
839
00:28:54,030 --> 00:28:57,240
So the scale of the
plastic pollution problem.
840
00:28:57,240 --> 00:28:59,335
Yeah.
It's, it's large.
841
00:28:59,335 --> 00:29:01,710
Is there a different way
you think people could think
842
00:29:01,710 --> 00:29:03,990
about this problem without
feeling just like totally
843
00:29:03,990 --> 00:29:05,520
daunted and overwhelmed?
844
00:29:05,520 --> 00:29:07,590
Yeah. I think what
the message I always try
845
00:29:07,590 --> 00:29:11,430
to convey when I end a
talk is it's complicated.
846
00:29:11,430 --> 00:29:14,760
And if someone comes up
to me and says, after I,
847
00:29:14,760 --> 00:29:16,740
after I talk about something, they say,
848
00:29:16,740 --> 00:29:19,020
"If we just..." I always uhuh.
849
00:29:19,020 --> 00:29:21,080
It's not that simple.
And, and I've had, and,
850
00:29:21,080 --> 00:29:23,610
and that comes from experience
that comes from me giving a,
851
00:29:23,610 --> 00:29:25,230
talking to someone
saying, "If we just banned
852
00:29:25,230 --> 00:29:27,480
straws, why do we need them?"
853
00:29:27,480 --> 00:29:29,130
And before I got a single word out,
854
00:29:29,130 --> 00:29:30,150
someone raised their
hand and said, "I had a
855
00:29:30,150 --> 00:29:31,590
stroke, I need straws."
856
00:29:31,590 --> 00:29:34,290
And it's like, that's
why you can replace it
857
00:29:34,290 --> 00:29:35,400
with something else, that's fine.
858
00:29:35,400 --> 00:29:37,560
But if you don't want to use
it, then don't. But we can.
859
00:29:37,560 --> 00:29:39,840
We, we, it took, what, 80
years to get into this mess.
860
00:29:39,840 --> 00:29:40,960
We're not gonna get out easy.
861
00:29:40,960 --> 00:29:42,130
We're not gonna get out easily.
862
00:29:42,130 --> 00:29:44,620
And we're not gonna get
out with "If we just..."
863
00:29:44,620 --> 00:29:46,210
It's really difficult to do that.
864
00:29:46,210 --> 00:29:48,490
And a lot of people come
up with these regimens for
865
00:29:48,490 --> 00:29:50,285
how do I, how I avoid it.
866
00:29:50,285 --> 00:29:52,480
I do this, I get my milk
delivered in the glass jug
867
00:29:52,480 --> 00:29:55,270
and all this, this, first of
all, that's now inaccessible
868
00:29:55,270 --> 00:29:57,430
to any middle or lower
income or income family.
869
00:29:57,430 --> 00:29:59,295
It's just for rich people.
Like cool. Yeah. Yeah.
870
00:29:59,295 --> 00:30:02,050
That you do that. But then
there's always devil's advocate.
871
00:30:02,050 --> 00:30:04,060
You always have to think
on the other side. Okay,
872
00:30:04,060 --> 00:30:07,300
you eliminate plastic, what do
you use instead? Well, glass.
873
00:30:07,300 --> 00:30:10,065
Okay. Glass is heavier. Uses
a lot of water to clean.
874
00:30:10,065 --> 00:30:12,190
That's a problem. Well,
okay. What about aluminum?
875
00:30:12,190 --> 00:30:14,260
Well, aluminum can be expensive too.
876
00:30:14,260 --> 00:30:15,820
And it's, it's also difficult to recycle.
877
00:30:15,820 --> 00:30:17,050
It's expensive to recycle.
878
00:30:17,050 --> 00:30:19,510
Yeah. - Well, you, I mean,
it's always, there's a lot
879
00:30:19,510 --> 00:30:20,650
of things that come up.
880
00:30:21,580 --> 00:30:23,890
I mean, you're surrounded by it.
881
00:30:23,890 --> 00:30:26,680
You just have to, you have to
forgive yourself a little bit.
882
00:30:26,680 --> 00:30:28,690
And if you can find
ways to avoid something,
883
00:30:28,690 --> 00:30:31,420
like if I bring a metal
straw with me, big win.
884
00:30:31,420 --> 00:30:33,670
Awesome. Tell your family about it.
885
00:30:33,670 --> 00:30:36,100
But, but don't go as
far as to, you know, try
886
00:30:36,100 --> 00:30:38,620
to just ban it all because
you think your experience is
887
00:30:38,620 --> 00:30:40,060
applicable to everybody else.
888
00:30:40,060 --> 00:30:41,140
I think that's a big challenge.
889
00:30:41,140 --> 00:30:42,580
I try to tell people it's complicated
890
00:30:42,580 --> 00:30:44,410
and then I end on things I'm excited
891
00:30:44,410 --> 00:30:45,940
about when it comes to plastic.
892
00:30:45,940 --> 00:30:48,130
So looking ahead 10
years, we talked about
893
00:30:48,130 --> 00:30:49,390
how we don't really know what's going on
894
00:30:49,390 --> 00:30:52,060
with poly vinyl alcohol
in the environment.
895
00:30:52,060 --> 00:30:53,320
Is there anything else you hope
896
00:30:53,320 --> 00:30:57,640
that we understand better about
just pollution and ecosystem
897
00:30:57,640 --> 00:30:59,890
and human health 10 years from now?
898
00:30:59,890 --> 00:31:02,770
I hope that we understand
that we can pinpoint
899
00:31:02,770 --> 00:31:04,090
to a certain contaminant and,
900
00:31:04,090 --> 00:31:06,610
and be able to demonstrate
a negative effect
901
00:31:06,610 --> 00:31:08,135
from that specific thing.
902
00:31:08,135 --> 00:31:11,230
I hope we have a little bit
more progress in my field,
903
00:31:11,230 --> 00:31:12,880
but I hope that we have that ability and,
904
00:31:12,880 --> 00:31:15,730
and honestly, that ability
is gonna come from physicians
905
00:31:15,730 --> 00:31:17,080
and researchers working together.
906
00:31:17,080 --> 00:31:18,910
Okay.
Because I can't, I can only assume.
907
00:31:18,910 --> 00:31:20,980
Yeah.
Right. If I find plastic in a,
908
00:31:20,980 --> 00:31:23,410
in a brain tissue sample, I
would sort of think, yeah,
909
00:31:23,410 --> 00:31:24,850
that shouldn't be there, but
910
00:31:24,850 --> 00:31:25,960
I don't know what it's gonna do.
911
00:31:25,960 --> 00:31:28,420
Right. - But if I work with
Diego, then Diego can say
912
00:31:28,420 --> 00:31:29,620
with his experience, yeah.
913
00:31:29,620 --> 00:31:31,180
"These are the effects
of having something like
914
00:31:31,180 --> 00:31:32,980
that in the brain."
That's really powerful.
915
00:31:32,980 --> 00:31:36,460
And I do hope there is more
unity between science, what,
916
00:31:36,460 --> 00:31:39,235
between doctor, like physicians
and, and researchers.
917
00:31:39,235 --> 00:31:41,590
And I hope we improve our communication.
918
00:31:41,590 --> 00:31:45,040
I'm trying, but it's
just, it's a big battle.
919
00:31:45,040 --> 00:31:46,720
And I, I do, a lot
happens in Maine, right?
920
00:31:46,720 --> 00:31:48,700
Maine has a big focus
on eating whole foods
921
00:31:48,700 --> 00:31:50,110
and having it be natural.
922
00:31:50,110 --> 00:31:52,240
So then they'll say, "No, no,
no, this is natural. It's good."
923
00:31:52,240 --> 00:31:54,130
And then I'll say, "What do
you treat your well for?"
924
00:31:54,130 --> 00:31:57,700
And they'll go, "Arsenic." I'll
say, "Oh, that's natural."
925
00:31:57,700 --> 00:32:00,855
So is a bear and a
shark. Formaldehyde. Yeah.
926
00:32:00,855 --> 00:32:02,620
Is we produce. So it's, it's a term
927
00:32:02,620 --> 00:32:04,060
that I hope we clear up a little bit.
928
00:32:04,060 --> 00:32:06,880
Yeah. So that it's not a, so,
so you can put it on there,
929
00:32:06,880 --> 00:32:08,620
but it's like, is that really descriptive?
930
00:32:08,620 --> 00:32:10,270
So, okay, we talked earlier about
931
00:32:10,270 --> 00:32:12,190
how these are marketing terms, right?
932
00:32:12,190 --> 00:32:13,210
Do you think there's a need for
933
00:32:13,210 --> 00:32:14,680
regulation around some of these terms?
934
00:32:14,680 --> 00:32:16,000
Because, you know, you
could just say like, oh,
935
00:32:16,000 --> 00:32:18,130
it's all natural, you know,
936
00:32:18,130 --> 00:32:20,380
and there's no legal definition of that.
937
00:32:20,380 --> 00:32:21,430
Yes. As far as I know.
938
00:32:21,430 --> 00:32:23,260
What's a microplastic?
Yeah. Okay.
939
00:32:23,260 --> 00:32:24,670
What's a nanoplastic? Okay.
940
00:32:24,670 --> 00:32:28,420
What's, what's non GMO,
all these things have these
941
00:32:28,420 --> 00:32:29,740
where they slap it on a label
942
00:32:29,740 --> 00:32:31,120
and they say it's healthy and organic.
943
00:32:31,120 --> 00:32:33,370
All these terms carry
weight with them. - Right.
944
00:32:33,370 --> 00:32:36,130
And there's a lack of
transparency when it comes
945
00:32:36,130 --> 00:32:37,180
to our understanding of it,
946
00:32:37,180 --> 00:32:39,710
right? So we, we say,
oh, this is, this is good
947
00:32:39,710 --> 00:32:42,950
because it's non GMO and then
we eat seedless watermelon.
948
00:32:42,950 --> 00:32:45,470
Or we don't look at our pug
949
00:32:45,470 --> 00:32:47,060
and think that used to be a wolf.
950
00:32:48,860 --> 00:32:50,985
Do you have a pug? - No. - Oh,
okay. - No, they're great.
951
00:32:50,985 --> 00:32:52,040
I mean, they, they have
issues. - They're cute.
952
00:32:52,040 --> 00:32:52,990
I wouldn't buy one though. - Right. But
953
00:32:52,990 --> 00:32:53,990
that used to be a wolf!
954
00:32:53,990 --> 00:32:56,630
Yeah. And then we modified
it genetically.
955
00:32:56,630 --> 00:32:59,450
And we look at how corn
used to be like this, right?
956
00:32:59,450 --> 00:33:01,700
Tiny little like 10
kernels. And now it's huge.
957
00:33:01,700 --> 00:33:04,280
Yeah.
So genetically modifying something
958
00:33:04,280 --> 00:33:05,300
isn't that bad.
959
00:33:05,300 --> 00:33:06,830
Right.
So, so we're getting there
960
00:33:06,830 --> 00:33:08,780
where science communicators
are getting better at making
961
00:33:08,780 --> 00:33:10,160
this more transparent.
962
00:33:10,160 --> 00:33:11,900
Like defining these terms. Define organic.
963
00:33:11,900 --> 00:33:13,145
That's a touchy one in Maine.
964
00:33:13,145 --> 00:33:14,180
Because they're
Organic,
965
00:33:14,180 --> 00:33:16,700
they'll say all natural, no pesticides.
966
00:33:16,700 --> 00:33:18,590
There are pesticides
in organic foods.
967
00:33:18,590 --> 00:33:21,170
Like that, that you can have
natural pesticides, right?
968
00:33:21,170 --> 00:33:24,620
But again, natural is
arsenic. It's not healthy.
969
00:33:24,620 --> 00:33:26,360
It doesn't mean it's
good for you. But we have
970
00:33:26,360 --> 00:33:28,010
to break those terms down a little bit
971
00:33:28,010 --> 00:33:29,240
and try to understand that.
972
00:33:29,240 --> 00:33:32,810
And I think, I think thanks
to podcasts like yours,
973
00:33:32,810 --> 00:33:34,700
it gives the scientists the microphone
974
00:33:34,700 --> 00:33:37,370
and those that are good
communicators can actually
975
00:33:37,370 --> 00:33:38,450
explain what something is.
976
00:33:38,450 --> 00:33:39,680
And I didn't necessarily know this
977
00:33:39,680 --> 00:33:41,480
until my friend James sort of said,
978
00:33:41,480 --> 00:33:42,680
"Let me draw the chemical structure
979
00:33:42,680 --> 00:33:44,270
of a pesticide that's not natural."
980
00:33:44,270 --> 00:33:45,470
And he drew it and then
981
00:33:45,470 --> 00:33:46,670
he said, "Let me draw one for one
982
00:33:46,670 --> 00:33:48,860
that is natural." It's slightly
different, but not much.
983
00:33:48,860 --> 00:33:52,100
So it was really
powerful in that moment.
984
00:33:52,100 --> 00:33:54,680
And if I can get folks
like that a microphone,
985
00:33:54,680 --> 00:33:55,790
then we start to understand things.
986
00:33:55,790 --> 00:33:57,800
But I, to your, to your question, yes.
987
00:33:57,800 --> 00:34:00,830
It needs much better regulation.
We have to agree on things.
988
00:34:00,830 --> 00:34:03,200
Yeah. - I remember I
published a paper on wastewater
989
00:34:03,200 --> 00:34:04,820
treatment plants and microplastics.
990
00:34:04,820 --> 00:34:06,530
I just wanted to know
what they were finding.
991
00:34:06,530 --> 00:34:09,080
I looked at all the different
terms for microplastics,
992
00:34:09,080 --> 00:34:13,280
sphere, foam, ellipse,
fragment, glitter, fiber.
993
00:34:13,280 --> 00:34:15,560
Like what the, what the hell is a sphere
994
00:34:15,560 --> 00:34:16,910
relative to like -?
995
00:34:16,910 --> 00:34:19,790
Like what's a fragment, what's an ellipse?
996
00:34:19,790 --> 00:34:21,530
What the hell does that mean?
997
00:34:21,530 --> 00:34:23,210
Yeah.
So it's like if we can't even agree on
998
00:34:23,210 --> 00:34:24,530
terms or how big are - The scientific
999
00:34:24,530 --> 00:34:25,790
community can't! - Right. So yeah,
1000
00:34:25,790 --> 00:34:27,650
We have to come to a consensus
1001
00:34:27,650 --> 00:34:29,600
and we have to come up with something
1002
00:34:29,600 --> 00:34:30,770
that's not gonna be perfect.
1003
00:34:30,770 --> 00:34:32,465
Someone might disagree.
It's like making a logo.
1004
00:34:32,465 --> 00:34:34,250
Someone's always gonna say
like, "Ah, I don't like it."
1005
00:34:34,250 --> 00:34:36,020
But if, if it's good,
if it conveys the thing,
1006
00:34:36,020 --> 00:34:37,370
well yeah, let's go with it.
1007
00:34:37,370 --> 00:34:40,100
Right. And yeah, science needs
to do a better job of that.
1008
00:34:40,100 --> 00:34:41,660
We've covered a lot today.
Yeah.
1009
00:34:41,660 --> 00:34:46,430
But is there anything that
you'd recommend people to read,
1010
00:34:46,430 --> 00:34:49,850
watch, listen to, that might
help 'em learn more about some
1011
00:34:49,850 --> 00:34:51,260
of the topics we talked about today.
1012
00:34:51,260 --> 00:34:52,260
Your podcast?
1013
00:34:52,260 --> 00:34:54,200
Oh, thank you. Yeah.
I think this represents
1014
00:34:54,200 --> 00:34:55,670
something extremely powerful.
1015
00:34:55,670 --> 00:34:56,503
Thank you.
1016
00:34:56,503 --> 00:34:57,890
Because now I can talk to people
1017
00:34:57,890 --> 00:35:00,145
that do podcasts and, and,
1018
00:35:00,145 --> 00:35:02,180
and discuss how you put this together.
1019
00:35:02,180 --> 00:35:05,000
It's not easy, right. Putting
scientists in a chair,
1020
00:35:05,000 --> 00:35:06,710
asking 'em questions
that allow them to kind
1021
00:35:06,710 --> 00:35:08,720
of open up a little bit and
reduce the science jargon.
1022
00:35:08,720 --> 00:35:11,450
That's not easy, but it's a
necessary thing to happen.
1023
00:35:11,450 --> 00:35:13,010
I love that idea.
1024
00:35:13,010 --> 00:35:16,220
And there's also a podcast
called Science Vs.
1025
00:35:16,220 --> 00:35:17,630
Oh, I love science Vs.
Science Vs
1026
00:35:17,630 --> 00:35:18,710
is, is really good.
1027
00:35:18,710 --> 00:35:20,090
Yeah.
Because they'll go
1028
00:35:20,090 --> 00:35:22,160
through some really important topics
1029
00:35:22,160 --> 00:35:24,500
and at the end they're
proud of their citations.
1030
00:35:24,500 --> 00:35:25,580
Yeah.
So if, if people
1031
00:35:25,580 --> 00:35:27,770
that don't know citation
just means I found something
1032
00:35:27,770 --> 00:35:29,330
that's fact and evidence-based,
1033
00:35:29,330 --> 00:35:31,640
and that's what I use to come
up with this information.
1034
00:35:31,640 --> 00:35:34,580
We need citations on
everything these days.
1035
00:35:34,580 --> 00:35:36,140
Whenever someone says something
1036
00:35:36,140 --> 00:35:39,390
and they make a claim something,
especially politically,
1037
00:35:39,390 --> 00:35:41,340
there should be a source that's checked.
1038
00:35:41,340 --> 00:35:42,630
But I love Science Vs
1039
00:35:42,630 --> 00:35:44,850
because they, they are transparent
1040
00:35:44,850 --> 00:35:46,290
and they put it right out there.
1041
00:35:46,290 --> 00:35:48,360
So if you're interested, you
can go right to that source.
1042
00:35:48,360 --> 00:35:50,100
And I think that's
such a great system
1043
00:35:50,100 --> 00:35:52,470
to have in place so that
people don't have to say, well,
1044
00:35:52,470 --> 00:35:54,060
where did you get this information from?
1045
00:35:54,060 --> 00:35:56,070
Charlie, thank you
for coming on the show.
1046
00:35:56,070 --> 00:35:57,540
Thanks for having me.
It's great to be back.
1047
00:35:57,540 --> 00:35:58,565
It was so nice
To talk to you.
1048
00:35:58,565 --> 00:36:00,540
You have to visit me now.
Brunswick's not that far away.
1049
00:36:00,540 --> 00:36:02,550
Ne I'll be in Maine in July.
1050
00:36:02,550 --> 00:36:04,860
I'll make the trip up to Blue Hill
1051
00:36:04,860 --> 00:36:07,500
and take my kiddo to see your, your touch
1052
00:36:07,500 --> 00:36:08,500
tank.
1053
00:36:08,500 --> 00:36:09,960
Yeah. I think by then our newest
species we're acquiring is
1054
00:36:09,960 --> 00:36:11,790
a seahorse because Maine has seahorses.
1055
00:36:11,790 --> 00:36:13,860
They do have seahorses,
Which is crazy to think about.
1056
00:36:13,860 --> 00:36:16,530
But they're this hearty,
resilient seahorse with an accent
1057
00:36:16,530 --> 00:36:18,900
that, that sticks around
through the cold winter months.
1058
00:36:18,900 --> 00:36:20,460
So it's, yeah, I, I come through, you have
1059
00:36:20,460 --> 00:36:22,710
to hold a sea cucumber and a sea star,
1060
00:36:22,710 --> 00:36:23,543
and we have a crab named
1061
00:36:23,543 --> 00:36:24,780
Hannibal. You'll have to hold him too.
1062
00:36:24,780 --> 00:36:25,770
Okay,
Cool. Yeah, he earned his
1063
00:36:25,770 --> 00:36:26,820
title. But I'll protect you.
1064
00:36:26,820 --> 00:36:28,890
I can't wait to meet
Hannibal. Yeah. Good. All right.
1065
00:36:28,890 --> 00:36:29,925
Thanks so much, Charlie. Thanks for having
1066
00:36:29,925 --> 00:36:31,465
Me.
1067
00:36:31,465 --> 00:36:33,210
Thanks for tuning in.
1068
00:36:33,210 --> 00:36:34,470
If you enjoyed the show,
1069
00:36:34,470 --> 00:36:36,750
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1070
00:36:36,750 --> 00:36:38,160
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1071
00:36:38,160 --> 00:36:40,290
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1072
00:36:40,290 --> 00:36:42,720
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1073
00:36:42,720 --> 00:36:45,090
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1074
00:36:45,090 --> 00:36:47,790
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1075
00:36:47,790 --> 00:36:49,050
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1076
00:36:49,050 --> 00:36:52,230
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1077
00:36:52,230 --> 00:36:55,260
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1078
00:36:55,260 --> 00:36:58,110
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1079
00:36:58,110 --> 00:36:59,820
so wear your PPE.
1080
00:36:59,820 --> 00:37:02,160
Until next time, stay curious.