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Welcome to Quay Let's Talk Education, a podcast where Indigenous and non-Indigenous voices from across Quebec come together to share knowledge and experiences related to education.
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In each episode, you'll encounter new perspectives that we hope will enrich your practice and deepen your connection to your communities.
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I am one of your hosts, Stacey Allen, and in this episode, I met with Jessica Landry and Talia Barnes to talk about having big conversations about identity with kindergarten to grade three students.
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So, hi everyone, and welcome to another episode of Quay Let's Talk Education.
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I'm Stacey Allen and I am joined by two wonderful guests today.
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Why don't you introduce yourselves to our listeners?
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Hi, everybody.
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My name is Jessica Landry.
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I've been an educator for 14 years, and I'm currently working in the Lester B.
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Pearson School Board and teaching art and drama.
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Hi, my name is Talia Barnes.
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I'm a kindergarten teacher at an independent school in Montreal.
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I've been teaching kindergarten for 12 years, and I have a background in early childhood and English as a second language.
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I'm also the sustainability instructional lead, and I've been the DI instructional lead at my school.
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I'm happy to be here.
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So just to give our listeners some context, I had the pleasure of meeting Jessica and Talia at Springboards back in March.
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And you both had a presentation on having big conversations with little learners, which I don't know, it kind of resonated with me or struck me because so many times educators kind of avoid those complex conversations with younger learners.
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So I'm curious if you've ever encountered educators voicing the kind of hesitation to have big conversations with young learners.
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And if so, what are some of the challenges or concerns that they've shared with you?
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So firstly, yeah, it was really wonderful to be able to meet you, Stacey, at the conference.
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You never know when you're gonna have presentations like this, who they're gonna land with or how.
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So it was really encouraging to have your feedback.
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So thank you.
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I would say that when Tally and I were working together, we were educators who were already doing things in our classroom.
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Talia took a more of a leadership role in that and wanted to reach out to colleagues.
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And I was one of those colleagues.
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And I remember when she first came to me, for example, about Black History Month and wanting to have an assembly and wanting to bring it more to the present at school.
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Even I, someone who felt like I was doing lots of good work on the ground with my classes in terms of anti-racism, in terms of identity work, in terms of indigenous perspectives, bringing things that I was learning.
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Even I, when she approached me, felt like, yeah, actually, I'm not doing enough.
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I felt that.
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So I think one of the main concerns I've certainly felt, and then that we got to hear from colleagues was either like, I don't feel like I'm doing enough, but I don't know where to start.
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And then other people would talk to us, Talia, if you want to jump in.
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But I remember people talking to us about like, well, you both seem like you know a lot, but we don't know a lot.
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And so we don't want to make mistakes, and so we're not gonna even kind of venture in or dip dip our toes in um to any anything remotely difficult possibly, or because I don't want to mess it up.
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I don't know if you felt that way too.
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No, absolutely.
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And I think even now to this day, I still think, well, I'm not an expert.
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So even in my intro, just like I'm a kindergarten teacher.
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That's it.
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You know, so I think teachers generally, when it's something that they're not specifically trained for, tend to kind of put their hands up a bit and be like, well, I don't know enough about that.
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And those are real concerns for sure.
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There's things that if you don't know about the content you're teaching, then by all means, it makes sense to be apprehensive.
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So I think that's a real setback for people, that feeling of not knowing and also of just being worried that they're gonna make a mistake.
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I think the one, the one thing is it doesn't take much to start learning.
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So that being said, you know, you have to know where the have the right resources.
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And that does take time and effort.
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And because a lot of what we're talking about isn't, you know, mandated or part of the curriculum, then people focus on things that are are mandated, are part of the curriculum, and then they say, I don't have time for those other things.
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And of course, I we all we understand that as teachers, but even though it's challenging, there are real impacts of not having these conversations and of not kind of learning about the things that you don't know and shedding a light onto the areas that are dark for you that you don't know, it's important to start thinking about, okay, well, if I don't know it, then what can I do?
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I think I totally agree.
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And I also remember um teachers expressing, for example, apprehension even on a personal level.
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So, for example, issues that might come up, if you're having a big conversation in a classroom, let's say about residential schooling, teachers feeling apprehensive, even just on a personal level of perhaps what they've experienced in their own lives.
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Uh as I am a non-Indigenous person, I don't necessarily have those personal experiences that would like prevent me from being able to talk about things that I've learned at a bit of a distance.
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Whereas some people who, you know, are maybe faced with talking about residential schooling or black racism.
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And if they've experienced those things themselves, that can be really difficult to unpack or share in front of your students.
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I think that's also something that we've we've heard and tried to work with our colleagues about.
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Yeah, absolutely.
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I think that's part of it too, that gets a little bit overlooked, also that sometimes people have real discomfort in these topics because it's personal and it's painful.
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And so it's hard to address those.
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And depending on what your classroom looks like, it could get even more uh like harmful for a teacher personally.
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So yeah, no, I agree with that, just for sure.
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And also teachers not wanting to also harm students, um, which you're so lovely about because you always center joy and celebration and focusing on all the aspects of whatever topic it is you're bringing to the classroom.
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But yeah, teachers not wanting to single out children, say the wrong thing that might upset children.
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And then one other thing that comes to mind is also teachers not necessarily knowing how the students will react and then worrying what about what the students might say.
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Yeah.
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And then what to do with that also.
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Exactly.
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You're if you're not are used to having these conversations, then you're not able to really predict some of the things that are gonna come up, which are gonna create maybe discomfort and uncomfortable moments.
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And then you have your own discomfort and you have the students' discomfort, but you have to do something.
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So a lot of times it's easier just to avoid.
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Yeah, there's a lot of hurdles.
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You touched on a lot of things like educators, student discomfort, time, just like the sheer workload of educators, worrying about triggering students or getting things wrong.
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I mean, those are a lot of hurdles.
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So I'm curious why you believe it's essential to have these conversations with young learners and maybe if you've perceived any kind of impacts on your students from having those conversations with them.
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Yeah, I mean, I'm definitely I wish that I could do some sort of longitudinal study to see the students that I started really digging in deep within kindergarten, their conversations in grade six.
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I'm loosely starting to do that, like trying to see how the students in our when they get to grade six, the students that we've really had more of these harder conversations, because I didn't start my career doing this.
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This is like over the past, you know, five years or so that I've started to become more comfortable.
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I've started taking more trainings, more workshops, lots of PD, lots of reading about it.
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So starting to look at that like in terms of the long term.
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But I have conversations with other educators and the things that we talk about when they're younger, definitely they're more comfortable having those conversations when they're older.
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Because when they're younger, they're open.
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They're not full of, you know, bias.
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They haven't had all these experiences.
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Yes, they can.
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They absolutely can.
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They do come into the classroom with already assumptions and stereotypes because it's all around them.
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It could be in their family, it could just be, you know, in society, but they're really open to having these conversations and they get it at a very pure foundational understanding that why would you not let somebody have something or be a part of something or go to school or have the basics of life just because of their ancestry or the way they look or their languages.
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They understand that as the fundamental injustice.
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And if they can, and they truly understand it and they repeat it to their parents, they repeat it to their siblings.
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We hear them repeating it in the school, even in kindergarten, grade one, and things start to change a little bit as they get a bit older, but it's it's in there, you know.
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I recently had a workshop with the wonderful Patricia Blackett, anti-racist pedagogical consultant.
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I think we all know her.
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And she, she, I don't know if it was her term or it came from somebody else, but she said that people that are unrepresented in your life are going to become overrepresented in your imagination.
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And I think that's kind of so true when you have these conversations with young kids.
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They are able to bring up the assumptions that they make because nobody's talked to them about them.
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So they might, you know, have a parent or an experience where they saw somebody who was unhoused and sleeping on the street, and they looked a certain way.
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And that becomes, and that's the only person they've ever seen that looks that way.
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So that becomes what they think is normal because young kids categorize.
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That's what they do.
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That's how they're they're trying to make sense of the world.
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Um, I don't know if I'm going off topic, off the question here, but I think they just they're, they want to know.
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They want to understand the world at this age.
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They're looking to understand.
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And I think as adults, all of us, you know, whether you're parents, educators, people who have influence in their lives, is to help them make sense of what's happening around them in all respects, you know, and to tell the truth in a way that's age appropriate, always age appropriate, but in a way that that they can understand and that they can anchor to what is fundamentally, you know, right and wrong and what they know, you know, as they're developing their empathy and their sense of self and their compassion, then, you know, what would feel good for you?
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What shouldn't everybody have that same kind of right?
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So yeah.
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Just thinking about reflecting on my own children and the inhibitions.
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And you're so right.
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Like I see my K, my daughter who's going into K4, and she will talk about anything.
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But then already by my eldest, she's in grade five.
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You can see that awareness of, oh, I shouldn't talk about that.
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She's already kind of categorized, you know, the world.
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So I really respect and am thinking about how what you said about categorizing and trying to sort things and kind of before they have those categories, impact some of the biases and things that they might be making alongside of them.
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They fill the space.
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If you don't have the conversations, they are gonna make it up on their own, you know.
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So Yeah.
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And also the idea that like the categories or categorizing doesn't necessarily have to be a bad thing in terms of acknowledging differences.
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And one thing, you know, that that Talia I've seen in her classroom does so well is that she takes the difference and acknowledges it and talks about what's there already, but then doesn't ascribe a negative value to it and instead really talks about how differences are our strengths.
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There's no point in pretending that we're all the same when we could acknowledge our differences, get that out there, and then find a way to work together and use those differences as a group to, you know, to our advantage, which she does in her kindergarten classes.
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And then I would often get to see, you know, or reap the benefits of that in grade one when when I would sort of receive her class and just the the way that students were already well versed in the discussions.
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So, for example, if I would get them, we would start talking right away in September about Indigenous culture and the 11 nations of Quebec.
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They would already have knowledge of that.
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So that by the time we got to talking about residential schooling in that last week of September, they've already had this sort of full year of input from Talia's classroom.
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And then my sort of input in September, and then by the time we're talking about residential schooling, there's like a real appreciation of, oh, okay, now I really understand what people lost and what was taken from people, from Indigenous people.
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So you can see that difference.
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I feel like the original question was like, can we see the impact?
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And at least I have this privileged position of seeing the impact in grade one of the discussions that the kindergarten teachers were having in kindergarten in kindergarten.
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Um, and then to touch on what you said, Stacy, this idea of the like your younger child not having filters, like the younger kids don't have the same filters.
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But instead of being afraid of it, as we were talking about before, you can really try to use it to your advantage so that kids say what they're actually thinking and it gets out there.
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And then you have an opportunity to either correct, gently correct, or explore, uh, you know, or redirect.
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And that's a space we're trained to do that.
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Maybe not necessarily about these more difficult topics, but we are trained to do that.
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And home might not feel as prepared to engage with.
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You're so right about that, Jess.
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Like as teachers, I think we forget that we're already trained to have conversations with students that aren't yes or no, where we're trying to understand their thinking, where we're guiding, okay, why would you think, you know, like I'm just thinking, even it doesn't matter if you're a language teacher or a math teacher, you know, you have these conversations.
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It's just in a new area.
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I was gonna say another in terms of the impact, and I know Jess, you've seen it as well, is it's just in those moments where students feel like they make a comment where they feel seen or like they're important in the classroom, you know, whether it's because of a book or, you know, something that you put on the calendar.
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I don't know, just those moments I think show the impact of how important not just hard conversations are, but conversations that inspire or affirm, you know, who the kids are in the classroom and who other people are, those are just as important, if not, well, they're the foundation, I guess.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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We've often talked about that.
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Like even just in our little community building that we do in that one little class, kids who come up and say, Oh, this, you know, if you have a a book with child on the cover that looks like a child that's in your class, whatever skin color they might have, or however they might present, you know, outwardly, if that kid on that cover happens to resonate somehow with a kid in the class, they get excited.
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And a kid will say, Oh, do you think that that looks like me?
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And oh, that's my I count in those numbers or I speak in that language, or they get really excited.
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It's little, little but important.
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And I think that speaks to just knowing who's in your classroom and and time to care and think about what am I putting out there to my students?
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Who are the people who are who are these humans, these people who are here?
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How do they experience the world?
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What is going to help them to learn better?
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How do they learn?
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What are, you know, so I think just just shifting that focus is such or that way of thinking when you're teaching what whether it's content or a book or anything, I think really makes all the difference.
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And I see it in my son, who's in grade four also, that he he makes comments about that kind of thing.
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And I see what kind of books he gravitates to and what kind of characters he wants to see.
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That also shows the impact of those choices.
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And if if I can get personal too on on my end as a parent, too.
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Yeah, both of my kids are are white.
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There's a lot of diversity represented in their classrooms, which is great.
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So they're not, they're not strangers to, you know, the differences in people.
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Um, but I try to do as much work as I can at home on helping them understand what biases exist, you know, in terms of like representation in the books that we read.
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Just like, oh, look, there's representation here, there's representation there.
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Why is that important?
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Some everyone needs a get to get a chance to be seen, right?
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In in the in media we're consuming or or in the classroom.
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On the parent side of things, too, I think it's important to arm them.
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It's not to make them feel bad, right?
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Like, well, you're white people, you have to think about this.
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Like it's not what I'm trying to do with my own kids, but I am trying to get them to understand at already in an early age what kind of privilege they hold already, just with their skin color, socioeconomically.
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There are a lot of good resources too about how to talk to younger kids about privilege.
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I think that could be helpful.
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Sorry, one last bit of feedback, Talia.
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I don't know if it's okay to that I share this, but after, do you remember that I told you about a student who talked to us after that first assembly that we did?
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I don't know if it's useful or not, but what what is it now?
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I want to know what this is.
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Um after the first year that Talia organized this assembly that many colleagues participated in, it was a full school assembly to celebrate black excellence, but to also address um anti-black racism and and what that could look like and what racism was, and um just kind of with the assumption that we we it was important that the whole school start with like a basic foundation of understanding and a shared understanding.
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Um, so we had kind of a frank conversation in the during the assembly about the fact that even at our school, we were not immune to racism or to stereotypes or bias.
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Um, and that even as educators and grown-ups, we were also learning alongside the students.
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And afterwards, a grade six student came up to me and said how important he felt it was and how good he felt hearing that from us, from the grown-ups, like acknowledging that this was something that touches everyone and that everyone has a role to play, you know, in combating in it was a really impactful bit of feedback from a student.
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I'm sure you told me.
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I don't remember that.
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I'm thinking a lot about probably because I was just working on our website, about the competencies for educators.
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And competency one is like act as a cultural facilitator.
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And when you're both talking, I'm hearing so many great things to kind of work on that competency, like not being an expert and the importance of building relationships in order to have those conversations about bias and identity and privilege and how valuable that is.
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Yeah.
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So I'm wondering where do you suggest educators starting?
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So, are there any resources or tips that you have for educators who might recognize that difficult conversations are important to have, but they might be dealing with all those hurdles that we talked about in the beginning?
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There's a lot out there, first of all.
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There's so many things out there.
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And I think Jessica and I both have said many times that like it is a personal work.
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It is something that you do need to take the time to do.
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So, in terms of resources, there's a great deal of books.
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One of them actually that we're recently doing, Jessica and I are both doing it, the L C EQ.
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Oh my goodness, Jessica, what's it called?
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The L CEQ, the anti-racist pedagogical like curriculum.
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We're using this book called The Anti-Racist Reading Revolution by Dr.
00:21:35.920 --> 00:21:37.119
Sonia Cherry Paul.
00:21:37.200 --> 00:21:38.160
And it's a great book.
00:21:38.240 --> 00:21:40.559
You don't need to be taking this workshop.
00:21:40.720 --> 00:21:43.119
You can be doing reading this on your own.
00:21:43.440 --> 00:21:47.279
It's a great tool to help you start.
00:21:47.440 --> 00:21:54.000
Like there's a part of it where it's really is about developing your cultural humility and understanding why it's important.
00:21:54.079 --> 00:21:59.759
And then it actually gives educators, uses books to help educators start having.
00:22:00.160 --> 00:22:02.640
Con these conversations in the classroom.
00:22:02.960 --> 00:22:06.000
So there's a quite a few books like that as well.
00:22:06.160 --> 00:22:11.119
If you want to start with things like that, uh Jessica, I know has some great workshops.
00:22:11.279 --> 00:22:14.000
I'm sure you're happy to share.
00:22:14.640 --> 00:22:14.960
Yeah.
00:22:15.039 --> 00:22:23.839
So Talia and I, for and and some of our other colleagues, um, have been following four years worth of training.
00:22:24.000 --> 00:22:31.839
It's incredible when you think about it that way, but so four years worth of training with the outdoor education school and store.
00:22:32.400 --> 00:22:38.319
They work, they do a lot of work with natural curiosity out of uh OI OISI, I think, or U of T.
00:22:38.480 --> 00:22:39.279
I'm not sure.
00:22:39.680 --> 00:22:48.640
So outdoor education school has this great training program called Four Seasons of Indigenous Learning.
00:22:48.960 --> 00:22:56.559
The first season was 101 information about the Indian Act, about colonization.
00:22:56.880 --> 00:23:10.079
Sorry, I didn't do that in chronological order, but you know, they it's really like the basics that every person, um, but especially every person living on Turtle Island uh should know.
00:23:10.319 --> 00:23:14.640
So it was it was sort of asynchronous, you just followed a program.
00:23:14.880 --> 00:23:28.720
And then the second year was all about land-based, like so connecting with the land and integrating that into your life, but then also if you were an educator, into your classroom and your your uh teaching experience.
00:23:28.960 --> 00:23:32.000
Um, and then the third season was amazing.
00:23:32.160 --> 00:23:50.160
It was with these two women who were from Rise Up, Educate Indigenous Wellness, and they were talking to us about like really applied uh strategies that we could use to share indigenous perspectives in our classrooms, even as non-Indigenous educators.
00:23:50.319 --> 00:24:10.160
Again, with lots of sensibilities towards not misappropriating culture, not trying to talk as if you know or as if you invented this or as but always sharing with permission, you know, stories and um traditions and things that so what you could share with your students.
00:24:10.319 --> 00:24:18.720
And then this fourth year is with the incredible author and educator, Joe Crona, who wrote Wa Yiwa.
00:24:19.759 --> 00:24:26.640
And she is trying to motivate us to keep going in this work because it can be very lonely work.
00:24:26.720 --> 00:24:28.319
It can be scary work.
00:24:28.720 --> 00:24:41.039
For example, for me as a non-Indigenous educator who who really feels, I feel very passionately about this, about this topic, about anti-racism.
00:24:41.279 --> 00:24:47.519
It can be a hard road sometimes when you're going up against, you know, people who aren't as enthused as you are.
00:24:47.759 --> 00:24:52.640
I'm also someone who wants things to happen very quickly all the time, and that doesn't always work out.
00:24:52.880 --> 00:25:11.599
And so she has really been, along with her co-facilitator, Jenna Jessic, have they both been really inspiring in their, you know, being real with us, saying, like, change that you want to see will not happen in our lifetime, but we are taking steps towards that.
00:25:12.000 --> 00:25:16.240
And also helping us to see, like I have a certain amount of privilege.
00:25:16.319 --> 00:25:26.079
I can kind of come in and out of my advocacy role or my energy level to sort of fight some of these fights.
00:25:26.319 --> 00:25:40.240
I have a privilege of coming in and out of those things and being non-Indigenous, being white, not experiencing daily racism or daily microaggressions or those kinds of things.
00:25:40.480 --> 00:25:46.720
So helping me to see that you can sustain your energy, you've got this, keep going.
00:25:46.960 --> 00:25:51.839
Um, you've started the work, it won't be finished, but keep going.
00:25:52.000 --> 00:26:01.359
Um, and so this program really, I don't think it's an exaggeration to say that it changed me and like the kind of educator that I am.
00:26:01.599 --> 00:26:05.119
So for me, it's kind of my guiding light these days.
00:26:05.680 --> 00:26:14.720
I think, like, you know, for just that, that was exactly what fed you and what it gave you the grounding in that whole course.
00:26:14.880 --> 00:26:17.839
It starts with the education aspect, right?
00:26:18.079 --> 00:26:19.359
So, like, what don't you know?
00:26:19.519 --> 00:26:24.480
So it really addressed that kind of and the one of the biggest fears of people not knowing.
00:26:24.640 --> 00:26:27.119
Like, I don't know, I don't know anything about this topic.
00:26:27.359 --> 00:26:32.559
So doing some education first, that was like that's the first year was all about that.
00:26:32.720 --> 00:26:38.000
And some people who we did the course with knew a lot about it, and some people knew little and some people knew nothing.
00:26:38.079 --> 00:26:39.440
So it was a really great foundation.
00:26:39.599 --> 00:26:46.319
I think that's why, even when I think of like that idea of the mirror work, it's really more about the foundational learning.
00:26:46.559 --> 00:26:58.000
Learn about reconciliation, learn about history, learn about what is anti-racism, what is racism, because not everybody really actually understands what those look like.
00:26:58.240 --> 00:27:01.759
So there's, you know, great resources out there, Abraham X.
00:27:01.920 --> 00:27:03.680
Kendi, he has a great book about it.
00:27:03.759 --> 00:27:20.400
Like that's even as somebody who is black, I that was the first thing I read to understand and started listening a lot to him to build my understanding for things I already knew intrinsically, but to give me the language and and the kind of framework for thinking about it.
00:27:20.640 --> 00:27:28.880
Because once you get those, that foundational understanding of what are we talking about, you have to, you know, you need that, then finding other resources.
00:27:28.960 --> 00:27:42.480
And I think that's the again, the framework for seasons is different resources, different tools, different ways of reframing the way we teach and the way we act and the way we think.
00:27:43.200 --> 00:27:51.920
And the variety of perspectives also that they offer, like all the different speakers that they get from across Turtle Island and also beyond.
00:27:52.160 --> 00:27:57.359
It's a really beautiful like collection of voices and perspectives.
00:27:57.599 --> 00:27:58.240
Yeah.
00:27:58.640 --> 00:28:02.559
Other workshops in PD that like I know both of us have done.
00:28:02.720 --> 00:28:05.839
I mean, we've taken, you know, I look around for it a lot.
00:28:05.920 --> 00:28:10.160
There's always different workshops out there about, you know, anti-racist pedagogy.
00:28:10.720 --> 00:28:14.480
Courageous conversations is a great place that does that.
00:28:14.640 --> 00:28:18.799
You can find them online and they actually have workshops you could take.
00:28:19.119 --> 00:28:26.160
Curated leadership also has stuff a lot about how to, you know, have difficult conversations in the workplace.
00:28:26.400 --> 00:28:29.839
And Jess, I know you've taken a few with facing history.
00:28:30.480 --> 00:28:32.559
Yeah, facing history and ourselves.
00:28:32.720 --> 00:28:40.799
It's not on offer right now, but they did have a teaching residential schools course, which also was uh impactful.
00:28:40.960 --> 00:28:59.519
Um, but I'm so glad, actually, Talia, that you brought up the workplace uh conversations in the workplace, just to also share a little bit so that again, coming from the non-expert place that we're coming from, I still am terrified of addressing certain things in my workplace.
00:28:59.839 --> 00:29:10.000
Little things that could just so easily be me kind of getting curious about something that someone has said, or, but I still can't, I got it with the kids.
00:29:10.319 --> 00:29:12.640
Like I feel so much better doing it with the kids.
00:29:12.720 --> 00:29:17.839
And, you know, we as trusted friends and colleagues have conversations like this often.
00:29:18.079 --> 00:29:24.000
But man, sometimes things come up with colleagues' expressions, right?
00:29:24.160 --> 00:29:25.920
Like they're harmless.
00:29:26.079 --> 00:29:32.319
And I put that in quotation marks because sometimes microaggressions always seem harmless to the people who are doing it.
00:29:32.640 --> 00:29:40.720
But it's like I still need to find, I need to go now and take the courageous conversations training in the class in the workplace.
00:29:40.880 --> 00:29:49.680
Because things like when people will say, you know, I'm it's pretty low down on the totem pole, like just random stuff like that.
00:29:49.759 --> 00:29:52.079
You're like, you don't need to say that.
00:29:52.319 --> 00:29:59.599
You could say, do you know what that means, or do you know where that comes from, or I'm not there yet, but I want to be, but I'm still afraid.
00:29:59.839 --> 00:30:13.119
So even with all, you know, with these like four years of this training under my belt and all the like work that we've done, the personal work that I've done, still I am confronted with these situations.
00:30:14.079 --> 00:30:16.559
I feel like that's that's part of it too, though.
00:30:16.720 --> 00:30:38.000
There's gonna be times where you make a mistake or where you think after, I should have said something, or I should have said it like that, or I this, that, and that, yeah, and and you'll have that discomfort, but we expect our students to be willing to take risks and to new things.
00:30:38.400 --> 00:30:41.680
And we always tell them, like, it's okay if you make a mistake.
00:30:41.839 --> 00:30:42.240
It's okay.
00:30:42.400 --> 00:30:43.440
Next time we'll be better.
00:30:43.519 --> 00:30:55.440
But like we have to extend that same grace to ourselves, knowing it's important to keep trying, to keep taking those risks, to be willing to grow, to be willing to change and to be willing to admit the things you don't know.
00:30:55.680 --> 00:30:57.440
And when you make mistakes.
00:30:57.759 --> 00:30:59.119
Yeah, to model that for them.
00:30:59.200 --> 00:30:59.920
You're right.
00:31:00.400 --> 00:31:02.720
Model that and for and for ourselves, right?
00:31:02.880 --> 00:31:10.400
Because if you can turn that to yourself, then it'll help you be a bit more empathetic, also your students in that, in that way.
00:31:10.720 --> 00:31:13.680
So, but I know, I know those conversations are hard.
00:31:13.759 --> 00:31:14.559
It's hard sometimes.
00:31:14.799 --> 00:31:16.000
You're like, why didn't I say that?
00:31:16.079 --> 00:31:18.319
Or oh, I shouldn't, I shouldn't let that go.
00:31:18.480 --> 00:31:22.559
Because the silence can have real consequences, you know.
00:31:22.720 --> 00:31:26.400
But exactly and do everything all the time all at once.
00:31:26.480 --> 00:31:27.359
It's a process.
00:31:27.519 --> 00:31:31.039
Nothing, nothing happens fast, nothing, you know.
00:31:31.279 --> 00:31:33.759
It's deep, meaningful slow change.
00:31:34.240 --> 00:31:36.079
I hate slow change.
00:31:37.440 --> 00:31:43.680
When I Stacy, when I came in like doing this work, I came in so hot when I started working.
00:31:43.839 --> 00:31:48.079
Like, especially in high school, I was in high school, so like I could talk about anything with kids.
00:31:48.240 --> 00:31:52.480
So I would always focus on like deficit stuff.
00:31:52.720 --> 00:32:03.759
We were always talking about like the lack of water on First Nations reserves and um, you know, modern day slavery and how people of color disproportionately affected by that.
00:32:03.920 --> 00:32:09.440
And, you know, I I like I really came in like, we're gonna fix all this, we're gonna tell you all about residential schools.
00:32:09.599 --> 00:32:12.640
And I really, yeah, I've learned a lot.
00:32:13.359 --> 00:32:16.160
But I need to learn patience still.
00:32:16.640 --> 00:32:18.079
It's part of it, right?
00:32:18.319 --> 00:32:18.960
It's part of it.
00:32:19.119 --> 00:32:25.119
It's the passion to you, you want to make a difference, you want things to change, you want them to understand it.
00:32:25.200 --> 00:32:27.759
And then after you're like, okay, wait, hold on a second.
00:32:27.839 --> 00:32:32.960
What's the first thing that they've ever learnt about indigenous people?
00:32:33.119 --> 00:32:33.359
Yes.
00:32:33.519 --> 00:32:35.680
Like, is that really the first thing you want them to learn?
00:32:35.839 --> 00:32:38.559
And and we've had these conversations so so many times.
00:32:38.640 --> 00:32:41.440
Uh, you know, like what are they understanding?
00:32:41.839 --> 00:32:44.640
Are we just fueling their misconceptions?
00:32:44.799 --> 00:32:46.319
Are we fueling types?
00:32:46.480 --> 00:32:50.559
So finding that like balance, you know, it's a delicate balance.
00:32:51.119 --> 00:33:12.319
But, you know, the the truth is also when you know these conversations are having early on, then you can go in in high school or in whatever grade five, or you know, because you know that they've had all these other positive, more balanced experiences, um, learning and understanding.
00:33:12.559 --> 00:33:14.559
So yeah, totally.
00:33:15.279 --> 00:33:29.599
Another place where educators could start is maybe finding a buddy at work uh through some of the trainings that this this year of four seasons, we've been connecting with other workshop participants.
00:33:29.759 --> 00:33:50.319
And people often are alone in their school doing this work, often in communities that are that already are kind of anti, again, like against talking about, for example, reconciliation, against covering any kind of information about First Nations Metis or Inuit people in the schools.
00:33:50.559 --> 00:33:52.640
And so they're they're very alone.
00:33:53.279 --> 00:34:11.840
So reaching out, if you can find someone at school to to work with or do a workshop with, or perhaps it is through connection virtually, you know, with people across Turtle Island, but finding someone to help sustain you, I think can be helpful, good, a good place to start.
00:34:12.639 --> 00:34:18.320
Those were the best when we were doing it together and we would meet regularly, have lunch, and talk about it.
00:34:18.639 --> 00:34:22.400
I feel like those are the the times that really things set in.
00:34:22.480 --> 00:34:36.000
And then you can also, you know, like I got this or this is, you know, you can kind of take those risks also in a safe place to express what you know or understand or don't know.
00:34:36.239 --> 00:34:40.639
And it helps you to feel a little bit more confident as you move forward.
00:34:40.960 --> 00:34:44.159
Yeah, we were very lucky, I felt, to have that group.
00:34:45.760 --> 00:34:54.480
And another option is also to kind of practice or put out feelers with like your family and friends, for example.
00:34:54.639 --> 00:35:01.039
Even just finding out what people know or don't know in your inner circle, I've I found it helpful.
00:35:01.280 --> 00:35:05.760
Like my mother, for example, you know, didn't didn't know about residential schools.
00:35:06.000 --> 00:35:10.159
They never learned about that at at school, obviously when she was younger.
00:35:10.400 --> 00:35:24.719
And then when I came back from some work I was doing in James Bay and and shared this with her because a survivor had shared their story with me, also the first time I was learning about it at, you know, 25 or however old I was, and brought it home to her.
00:35:24.960 --> 00:35:39.280
And in unpacking it together, it helped give me the courage to start sharing this information, not the experience, because the experience was not mine, but to spread this information to as many people as I could.
00:35:39.599 --> 00:35:39.920
Yeah.
00:35:40.000 --> 00:35:55.599
And then people who know you, as Talia will often tell me, like, people who know me know my intentions and might be perhaps more forgiving of like, like you said, if I've made mistakes or if I've come at something not in an insensitive way that I can reframe.
00:35:55.760 --> 00:35:59.360
So you can do that more easily with with people who know you.
00:36:00.000 --> 00:36:00.480
Yeah.
00:36:00.800 --> 00:36:10.559
That was it reminds me of our learning lunches when we when the first time we did the learning lunches for Black History Month and talking about race and racism.
00:36:10.639 --> 00:36:17.519
And we just invited our colleagues to come and we were honest about like just it's okay.
00:36:17.840 --> 00:36:19.199
There's no stupid questions.
00:36:19.280 --> 00:36:23.440
Like they're really, we really for us, we were able to do that.
00:36:24.000 --> 00:36:26.960
And not everybody's gonna be comfortable with doing that.
00:36:27.199 --> 00:36:29.440
Being around that, I get that for sure.
00:36:29.599 --> 00:36:30.559
For us, it worked.
00:36:30.719 --> 00:36:34.000
Also, you know, the type of school we're in, this it's a small school.
00:36:34.159 --> 00:36:36.480
We already have the relationships a bit more built in.
00:36:36.719 --> 00:36:40.480
But I think being able to have those conversations together is really helpful.
00:36:40.639 --> 00:36:46.480
But I think it's important to remember that, you know, it's gonna be different for everybody and depends on who you are, where to start.
00:36:46.639 --> 00:36:56.320
So I love that idea of lunches and things with colleagues, because, you know, in a way, nobody can really be an expert at every identity.
00:36:56.480 --> 00:37:00.960
There's so many different identities and people in this world that it's impossible.
00:37:01.119 --> 00:37:18.800
So just creating those opportunities where you can reflect on the resources and different experiences you have teaching with colleagues and family and students, because we as you shared, Jessica, like students when they hear that educators and teachers are still learning, like they're not an expert.
00:37:18.880 --> 00:37:22.400
It's like opens the door for them to make mistakes.
00:37:22.719 --> 00:37:29.599
When you're talking, all I'm thinking is a snowball effect in terms of like it can take generations to see change.
00:37:29.760 --> 00:37:41.360
So maybe today we're just starting, but those students, when they grow up, some of them might become educators too, and they're gonna be maybe more open to having those conversations with their students and things as well.
00:37:41.679 --> 00:37:45.199
So that's that's the hope, you know.
00:37:46.400 --> 00:37:50.719
I feel like maybe, maybe I'm reading your mind, Jess, who knows?
00:37:50.960 --> 00:38:04.880
But I feel like a lot of, you know, in terms of the work, kind of some of the through line is also, yes, learning workshops, trainings, courses, books, read, you know, educate yourself, but it is like the relationships.
00:38:05.119 --> 00:38:18.960
So learning with others, through others, you know, getting out of your comfort zone, developing your racial literacy, your gender literacy, your cultural literacy, all those areas.
00:38:19.119 --> 00:38:21.840
You can't do those alone, you know.
00:38:22.079 --> 00:38:23.920
You can't really do them alone with the book.
00:38:24.079 --> 00:38:28.880
You have to get out there, you have to con have conversations, you have to have new experiences.
00:38:29.280 --> 00:38:30.880
Um yeah.
00:38:31.440 --> 00:38:33.440
Yes, did read my mind.
00:38:34.159 --> 00:38:36.239
You just said it so much more eloquently.
00:38:36.480 --> 00:38:48.559
Well, because remember, in the presentation, my whole thing was the way I like to learn is really being in contact, preferably sort of one-to-one, face-to-face, but if it has to be virtual, fine.
00:38:48.639 --> 00:38:54.880
But I do really love the energy exchange with other human beings.
00:38:55.280 --> 00:38:56.800
I I thrive on that.
00:38:56.880 --> 00:39:00.559
It I take it in, I think about it for days and weeks afterwards.
00:39:00.719 --> 00:39:18.159
And it's true that um that takes a lot of time to you, like you said, Stacey, you can't possibly meet, you know, one person from every different sort of group or nor would they represent the entirety of right?
00:39:18.800 --> 00:39:19.760
That's right.
00:39:19.920 --> 00:39:32.960
Um, but even if you had at least one real human story, um, I think I think it could help people break down a lot of these fears that they have and the walls that they have.
00:39:33.119 --> 00:39:43.840
Um it just it also makes me think of like people who say, well, you know, we we can't cover all of the, let's say, celebrations during the year or hot topics during the year.
00:39:43.920 --> 00:39:46.480
So I'm not gonna cover any because it's not fair.
00:39:46.639 --> 00:39:48.800
Um, because there's so many.
00:39:49.039 --> 00:40:06.559
I I just feel like, well, if you if you start as we're starting, if you start small or start with something that resonates with you or something that maybe represents a student students in your class or students in your school, then isn't that better than doing nothing?
00:40:07.199 --> 00:40:14.239
It has to be doing something small has to be better than doing nothing, even though it's very hard to get out of all or nothing thinking.
00:40:14.800 --> 00:40:17.519
And well, because you can't possibly do everything.
00:40:17.599 --> 00:40:28.159
You cannot celebrate every single day, know which every every single thing that's going on for every, you know, like that's not but you know how people use that often as like a so we shouldn't do anything.
00:40:28.400 --> 00:40:28.960
Yeah.
00:40:29.280 --> 00:40:49.760
But then it's like, but if you set this culture, this foundation in your classroom, in your school, where people feel like seen for who they are, and that they can then be like, oh, you know, at home, this is actually in my family, this is happening today.
00:40:49.920 --> 00:41:01.280
So you might not have known that, but they're gonna know, oh, I could say I'm safe to come and tell Jessica that this is a special day in my, you know, in my family and my culture, my whatever it is.
00:41:01.519 --> 00:41:11.280
Um, so then it that brings it forward and you you're just creating this environment where it's it's people are safe to be who they are and they feel seen.
00:41:11.519 --> 00:41:16.239
And I don't know, I just think then it it's not about the all or nothing.
00:41:16.400 --> 00:41:18.480
It's about it's about the environment, right?
00:41:18.639 --> 00:41:22.000
So I think people like to use that as an excuse, really.
00:41:22.559 --> 00:41:25.519
And I think it can be explicitly said to students, right?
00:41:25.599 --> 00:41:39.119
Like there are so many holidays and celebrations, we cannot cover them all, but here's one or two that we can, you know, or here's one or two stories from this community that we can share, but there are millions more.
00:41:39.360 --> 00:41:45.679
And if as long as we're explicit and saying there's still lots to learn, it's a door opening.
00:41:46.480 --> 00:41:48.159
Yes, definitely.
00:41:48.480 --> 00:41:56.800
It's also helpful when we're working with other sort of other groups that are open.
00:41:56.960 --> 00:42:09.679
So for example, if you work at a school where your administration is open to these types of things, if you're working with a classroom where the parents and carers of the students are largely, you know, supportive of what you're doing.
00:42:09.920 --> 00:42:20.000
I think we didn't quite touch on it, but there definitely can be these outside factors that might um make you feel like it's impossible to do, you know.
00:42:20.800 --> 00:42:24.800
I think it's unfortunate that we haven't had so much of that.
00:42:24.960 --> 00:42:26.880
We've had supportive environments.
00:42:27.119 --> 00:42:27.920
We really have.
00:42:28.719 --> 00:42:46.239
I would definitely say it's the exception, but it does come up still, I find people who are resistant to to talking about difficult things, even if you're assuring people that it's age appropriate, uh whether it's even in sexuality education.
00:42:46.559 --> 00:42:47.360
I thank you.
00:42:47.440 --> 00:42:48.719
I was just gonna say that.
00:42:48.960 --> 00:43:02.639
Things that for us as educators are like the basics, you know, of what's important information that's that still meets quite a bit of uh no, I can't say quite a bit, but still meets a certain amount of backlash.
00:43:02.800 --> 00:43:10.639
And then when you're someone like me who it's like the the the single single voices that go against are the ones you remember, you know?
00:43:10.880 --> 00:43:11.599
So it's hard.
00:43:11.840 --> 00:43:15.519
It's another layer to consider for educators.
00:43:16.159 --> 00:43:27.519
We always would preface our like units or anything that we were doing with communications home to the parents and carers, keeping those lines of communication open.
00:43:27.840 --> 00:43:28.400
Yeah.
00:43:28.719 --> 00:43:35.440
And explaining, and in those being like, this is what we're, you know, we're having conversations about, you know, racism, for example.
00:43:35.599 --> 00:43:37.440
And this is the way we explain it.
00:43:37.599 --> 00:43:40.639
This is that's I I don't tell them every little thing.
00:43:40.719 --> 00:43:47.840
We're doing this, this, but this is how we explain this concept to your children so that parents could then understand, okay, this is actually what they're talking about.
00:43:47.920 --> 00:43:51.760
Because again, what you don't talk about, people will fill in the blanks.
00:43:51.920 --> 00:43:55.360
So give them the information so that they're not making assumptions.
00:43:55.440 --> 00:44:07.039
So they're not developing their own kind of story about what you might be doing or how you might be explaining it, but you just explain this is it, and then it it generally seems to be clearer.
00:44:07.360 --> 00:44:11.519
Yeah, or share you could share the books that you're looking at, or that can help as well.
00:44:11.679 --> 00:44:17.360
Often I would have parents who would then get the book them themselves, or they can just watch it on YouTube as well.
00:44:17.440 --> 00:44:21.280
They don't have to buy anything so that they can watch and see what you've been looking at.
00:44:21.599 --> 00:44:33.840
Of course, they won't get the richness of, you know, the and the spontaneity of what the conversation necessarily looks like, but at least they understand where you're coming from and a little bit they understand your intent a little bit better.
00:44:35.280 --> 00:44:36.320
Thanks for sharing that.
00:44:36.400 --> 00:44:46.719
I think that's a great practice for teachers, especially with big conversations, because students might come home and still want to have questions or might have emotions related to what happened in class.
00:44:46.800 --> 00:44:52.559
So it's a great way for them to debrief or share uh with their caregivers as well.
00:44:52.880 --> 00:44:53.519
Yes.
00:44:53.760 --> 00:44:59.599
Um, and also you also risk them going home and not saying things exactly how you said them.
00:45:00.000 --> 00:45:01.679
Yeah, I was thinking the same.
00:45:01.760 --> 00:45:02.079
Yeah.
00:45:02.320 --> 00:45:05.039
So that's good when you tell the parents directly.
00:45:05.440 --> 00:45:17.440
Always good to yeah, pr preempt any misconceptions about what the kids might have heard, because even with the best of intentions, they will sometimes mishear or just misunderstand.
00:45:18.079 --> 00:45:19.760
Or not remember the words you use.
00:45:19.840 --> 00:45:24.639
So they might understand it, but they just can't communicate it in the way that we were doing it in the classroom.
00:45:24.719 --> 00:45:27.440
And then you're like, well, it was a bit more than that, but yes.
00:45:27.679 --> 00:45:28.320
Yes.
00:45:28.719 --> 00:45:48.239
Mostly I would I would experience parents being parents and carers being really appreciative of even themselves getting the help, getting the kind of the the support or the um information so that they could, as you said, Stacy, carry on or unpack anything that came home.
00:45:48.559 --> 00:45:51.039
Or maybe the kids just said, What did you do today?
00:45:51.119 --> 00:45:51.920
Nothing.
00:45:52.719 --> 00:45:53.920
It's possible.
00:45:55.519 --> 00:45:57.920
It's my grade five student.
00:45:58.159 --> 00:46:02.719
Well, thank you both of you for speaking with me today.
00:46:02.960 --> 00:46:06.320
I'd say uh Joe uh Crona says, keep going.
00:46:06.400 --> 00:46:08.159
I think you're both doing amazing work.
00:46:08.400 --> 00:46:15.679
So I look forward to continuing conversations like this with you and hearing more about your students and your own journey because I find it really inspiring.
00:46:15.840 --> 00:46:16.880
So thank you.
00:46:17.360 --> 00:46:18.639
Thank you for having us.
00:46:18.800 --> 00:46:20.000
It's been a lot of fun.
00:46:20.239 --> 00:46:25.920
And thank you, Stacey, as well, for your work that you're doing with the podcasting and with Learn.
00:46:26.480 --> 00:46:34.320
Really appreciate you giving us the platform, but also giving many people the platform to share their perspective.
00:00:02.000 --> 00:00:15.919
Welcome to Quay Let's Talk Education, a podcast where Indigenous and non-Indigenous voices from across Quebec come together to share knowledge and experiences related to education.
00:00:16.320 --> 00:00:25.600
In each episode, you'll encounter new perspectives that we hope will enrich your practice and deepen your connection to your communities.
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I am one of your hosts, Stacey Allen, and in this episode, I met with Jessica Landry and Talia Barnes to talk about having big conversations about identity with kindergarten to grade three students.
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So, hi everyone, and welcome to another episode of Quay Let's Talk Education.
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I'm Stacey Allen and I am joined by two wonderful guests today.
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Why don't you introduce yourselves to our listeners?
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Hi, everybody.
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My name is Jessica Landry.
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I've been an educator for 14 years, and I'm currently working in the Lester B.
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Pearson School Board and teaching art and drama.
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Hi, my name is Talia Barnes.
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I'm a kindergarten teacher at an independent school in Montreal.
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I've been teaching kindergarten for 12 years, and I have a background in early childhood and English as a second language.
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I'm also the sustainability instructional lead, and I've been the DI instructional lead at my school.
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I'm happy to be here.
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So just to give our listeners some context, I had the pleasure of meeting Jessica and Talia at Springboards back in March.
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And you both had a presentation on having big conversations with little learners, which I don't know, it kind of resonated with me or struck me because so many times educators kind of avoid those complex conversations with younger learners.
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So I'm curious if you've ever encountered educators voicing the kind of hesitation to have big conversations with young learners.
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And if so, what are some of the challenges or concerns that they've shared with you?
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So firstly, yeah, it was really wonderful to be able to meet you, Stacey, at the conference.
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You never know when you're gonna have presentations like this, who they're gonna land with or how.
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So it was really encouraging to have your feedback.
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So thank you.
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I would say that when Tally and I were working together, we were educators who were already doing things in our classroom.
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Talia took a more of a leadership role in that and wanted to reach out to colleagues.
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And I was one of those colleagues.
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And I remember when she first came to me, for example, about Black History Month and wanting to have an assembly and wanting to bring it more to the present at school.
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Even I, someone who felt like I was doing lots of good work on the ground with my classes in terms of anti-racism, in terms of identity work, in terms of indigenous perspectives, bringing things that I was learning.
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Even I, when she approached me, felt like, yeah, actually, I'm not doing enough.
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I felt that.
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So I think one of the main concerns I've certainly felt, and then that we got to hear from colleagues was either like, I don't feel like I'm doing enough, but I don't know where to start.
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And then other people would talk to us, Talia, if you want to jump in.
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But I remember people talking to us about like, well, you both seem like you know a lot, but we don't know a lot.
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And so we don't want to make mistakes, and so we're not gonna even kind of venture in or dip dip our toes in um to any anything remotely difficult possibly, or because I don't want to mess it up.
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I don't know if you felt that way too.
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No, absolutely.
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And I think even now to this day, I still think, well, I'm not an expert.
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So even in my intro, just like I'm a kindergarten teacher.
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That's it.
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You know, so I think teachers generally, when it's something that they're not specifically trained for, tend to kind of put their hands up a bit and be like, well, I don't know enough about that.
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And those are real concerns for sure.
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There's things that if you don't know about the content you're teaching, then by all means, it makes sense to be apprehensive.
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So I think that's a real setback for people, that feeling of not knowing and also of just being worried that they're gonna make a mistake.
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I think the one, the one thing is it doesn't take much to start learning.
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So that being said, you know, you have to know where the have the right resources.
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And that does take time and effort.
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And because a lot of what we're talking about isn't, you know, mandated or part of the curriculum, then people focus on things that are are mandated, are part of the curriculum, and then they say, I don't have time for those other things.
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And of course, I we all we understand that as teachers, but even though it's challenging, there are real impacts of not having these conversations and of not kind of learning about the things that you don't know and shedding a light onto the areas that are dark for you that you don't know, it's important to start thinking about, okay, well, if I don't know it, then what can I do?
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I think I totally agree.
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And I also remember um teachers expressing, for example, apprehension even on a personal level.
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So, for example, issues that might come up, if you're having a big conversation in a classroom, let's say about residential schooling, teachers feeling apprehensive, even just on a personal level of perhaps what they've experienced in their own lives.
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Uh as I am a non-Indigenous person, I don't necessarily have those personal experiences that would like prevent me from being able to talk about things that I've learned at a bit of a distance.
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Whereas some people who, you know, are maybe faced with talking about residential schooling or black racism.
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And if they've experienced those things themselves, that can be really difficult to unpack or share in front of your students.
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I think that's also something that we've we've heard and tried to work with our colleagues about.
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Yeah, absolutely.
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I think that's part of it too, that gets a little bit overlooked, also that sometimes people have real discomfort in these topics because it's personal and it's painful.
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And so it's hard to address those.
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And depending on what your classroom looks like, it could get even more uh like harmful for a teacher personally.
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So yeah, no, I agree with that, just for sure.
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And also teachers not wanting to also harm students, um, which you're so lovely about because you always center joy and celebration and focusing on all the aspects of whatever topic it is you're bringing to the classroom.
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But yeah, teachers not wanting to single out children, say the wrong thing that might upset children.
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And then one other thing that comes to mind is also teachers not necessarily knowing how the students will react and then worrying what about what the students might say.
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Yeah.
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And then what to do with that also.
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Exactly.
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You're if you're not are used to having these conversations, then you're not able to really predict some of the things that are gonna come up, which are gonna create maybe discomfort and uncomfortable moments.
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And then you have your own discomfort and you have the students' discomfort, but you have to do something.
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So a lot of times it's easier just to avoid.
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Yeah, there's a lot of hurdles.
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You touched on a lot of things like educators, student discomfort, time, just like the sheer workload of educators, worrying about triggering students or getting things wrong.
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I mean, those are a lot of hurdles.
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So I'm curious why you believe it's essential to have these conversations with young learners and maybe if you've perceived any kind of impacts on your students from having those conversations with them.
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Yeah, I mean, I'm definitely I wish that I could do some sort of longitudinal study to see the students that I started really digging in deep within kindergarten, their conversations in grade six.
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I'm loosely starting to do that, like trying to see how the students in our when they get to grade six, the students that we've really had more of these harder conversations, because I didn't start my career doing this.
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This is like over the past, you know, five years or so that I've started to become more comfortable.
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I've started taking more trainings, more workshops, lots of PD, lots of reading about it.
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So starting to look at that like in terms of the long term.
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But I have conversations with other educators and the things that we talk about when they're younger, definitely they're more comfortable having those conversations when they're older.
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Because when they're younger, they're open.
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They're not full of, you know, bias.
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They haven't had all these experiences.
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Yes, they can.
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They absolutely can.
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They do come into the classroom with already assumptions and stereotypes because it's all around them.
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It could be in their family, it could just be, you know, in society, but they're really open to having these conversations and they get it at a very pure foundational understanding that why would you not let somebody have something or be a part of something or go to school or have the basics of life just because of their ancestry or the way they look or their languages.
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They understand that as the fundamental injustice.
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And if they can, and they truly understand it and they repeat it to their parents, they repeat it to their siblings.
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We hear them repeating it in the school, even in kindergarten, grade one, and things start to change a little bit as they get a bit older, but it's it's in there, you know.
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I recently had a workshop with the wonderful Patricia Blackett, anti-racist pedagogical consultant.
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I think we all know her.
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And she, she, I don't know if it was her term or it came from somebody else, but she said that people that are unrepresented in your life are going to become overrepresented in your imagination.
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And I think that's kind of so true when you have these conversations with young kids.
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They are able to bring up the assumptions that they make because nobody's talked to them about them.
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So they might, you know, have a parent or an experience where they saw somebody who was unhoused and sleeping on the street, and they looked a certain way.
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And that becomes, and that's the only person they've ever seen that looks that way.
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So that becomes what they think is normal because young kids categorize.
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That's what they do.
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That's how they're they're trying to make sense of the world.
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Um, I don't know if I'm going off topic, off the question here, but I think they just they're, they want to know.
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They want to understand the world at this age.
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They're looking to understand.
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And I think as adults, all of us, you know, whether you're parents, educators, people who have influence in their lives, is to help them make sense of what's happening around them in all respects, you know, and to tell the truth in a way that's age appropriate, always age appropriate, but in a way that that they can understand and that they can anchor to what is fundamentally, you know, right and wrong and what they know, you know, as they're developing their empathy and their sense of self and their compassion, then, you know, what would feel good for you?
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What shouldn't everybody have that same kind of right?
00:11:41.679 --> 00:11:42.720
So yeah.
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Just thinking about reflecting on my own children and the inhibitions.
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And you're so right.
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Like I see my K, my daughter who's going into K4, and she will talk about anything.
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But then already by my eldest, she's in grade five.
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You can see that awareness of, oh, I shouldn't talk about that.
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She's already kind of categorized, you know, the world.
00:12:04.559 --> 00:12:21.840
So I really respect and am thinking about how what you said about categorizing and trying to sort things and kind of before they have those categories, impact some of the biases and things that they might be making alongside of them.
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They fill the space.
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If you don't have the conversations, they are gonna make it up on their own, you know.
00:12:27.360 --> 00:12:28.399
So Yeah.
00:12:28.480 --> 00:12:36.799
And also the idea that like the categories or categorizing doesn't necessarily have to be a bad thing in terms of acknowledging differences.
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And one thing, you know, that that Talia I've seen in her classroom does so well is that she takes the difference and acknowledges it and talks about what's there already, but then doesn't ascribe a negative value to it and instead really talks about how differences are our strengths.
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There's no point in pretending that we're all the same when we could acknowledge our differences, get that out there, and then find a way to work together and use those differences as a group to, you know, to our advantage, which she does in her kindergarten classes.
00:13:11.600 --> 00:13:24.399
And then I would often get to see, you know, or reap the benefits of that in grade one when when I would sort of receive her class and just the the way that students were already well versed in the discussions.
00:13:24.559 --> 00:13:32.480
So, for example, if I would get them, we would start talking right away in September about Indigenous culture and the 11 nations of Quebec.
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They would already have knowledge of that.
00:13:35.039 --> 00:13:44.799
So that by the time we got to talking about residential schooling in that last week of September, they've already had this sort of full year of input from Talia's classroom.
00:13:44.960 --> 00:14:00.799
And then my sort of input in September, and then by the time we're talking about residential schooling, there's like a real appreciation of, oh, okay, now I really understand what people lost and what was taken from people, from Indigenous people.
00:14:01.279 --> 00:14:03.360
So you can see that difference.
00:14:03.519 --> 00:14:06.639
I feel like the original question was like, can we see the impact?
00:14:06.799 --> 00:14:17.039
And at least I have this privileged position of seeing the impact in grade one of the discussions that the kindergarten teachers were having in kindergarten in kindergarten.
00:14:17.200 --> 00:14:29.039
Um, and then to touch on what you said, Stacy, this idea of the like your younger child not having filters, like the younger kids don't have the same filters.
00:14:29.200 --> 00:14:38.240
But instead of being afraid of it, as we were talking about before, you can really try to use it to your advantage so that kids say what they're actually thinking and it gets out there.
00:14:38.399 --> 00:14:46.960
And then you have an opportunity to either correct, gently correct, or explore, uh, you know, or redirect.
00:14:47.200 --> 00:14:50.480
And that's a space we're trained to do that.
00:14:50.639 --> 00:14:54.639
Maybe not necessarily about these more difficult topics, but we are trained to do that.
00:14:54.799 --> 00:14:59.679
And home might not feel as prepared to engage with.
00:15:00.320 --> 00:15:01.840
You're so right about that, Jess.
00:15:01.919 --> 00:15:21.120
Like as teachers, I think we forget that we're already trained to have conversations with students that aren't yes or no, where we're trying to understand their thinking, where we're guiding, okay, why would you think, you know, like I'm just thinking, even it doesn't matter if you're a language teacher or a math teacher, you know, you have these conversations.
00:15:21.360 --> 00:15:23.200
It's just in a new area.
00:15:23.519 --> 00:15:45.360
I was gonna say another in terms of the impact, and I know Jess, you've seen it as well, is it's just in those moments where students feel like they make a comment where they feel seen or like they're important in the classroom, you know, whether it's because of a book or, you know, something that you put on the calendar.
00:15:45.600 --> 00:16:04.960
I don't know, just those moments I think show the impact of how important not just hard conversations are, but conversations that inspire or affirm, you know, who the kids are in the classroom and who other people are, those are just as important, if not, well, they're the foundation, I guess.
00:16:05.200 --> 00:16:05.440
Yeah.
00:16:05.600 --> 00:16:05.840
Yeah.
00:16:05.919 --> 00:16:07.120
We've often talked about that.
00:16:07.200 --> 00:16:31.039
Like even just in our little community building that we do in that one little class, kids who come up and say, Oh, this, you know, if you have a a book with child on the cover that looks like a child that's in your class, whatever skin color they might have, or however they might present, you know, outwardly, if that kid on that cover happens to resonate somehow with a kid in the class, they get excited.
00:16:31.200 --> 00:16:34.240
And a kid will say, Oh, do you think that that looks like me?
00:16:34.320 --> 00:16:41.600
And oh, that's my I count in those numbers or I speak in that language, or they get really excited.
00:16:41.840 --> 00:16:43.679
It's little, little but important.
00:16:44.320 --> 00:16:52.240
And I think that speaks to just knowing who's in your classroom and and time to care and think about what am I putting out there to my students?
00:16:52.399 --> 00:16:56.799
Who are the people who are who are these humans, these people who are here?
00:16:57.279 --> 00:16:58.960
How do they experience the world?
00:16:59.120 --> 00:17:00.720
What is going to help them to learn better?
00:17:00.799 --> 00:17:01.360
How do they learn?
00:17:01.440 --> 00:17:13.759
What are, you know, so I think just just shifting that focus is such or that way of thinking when you're teaching what whether it's content or a book or anything, I think really makes all the difference.
00:17:13.839 --> 00:17:19.440
And I see it in my son, who's in grade four also, that he he makes comments about that kind of thing.
00:17:19.519 --> 00:17:25.279
And I see what kind of books he gravitates to and what kind of characters he wants to see.
00:17:25.519 --> 00:17:29.039
That also shows the impact of those choices.
00:17:29.680 --> 00:17:34.319
And if if I can get personal too on on my end as a parent, too.
00:17:34.559 --> 00:17:36.880
Yeah, both of my kids are are white.
00:17:37.119 --> 00:17:40.319
There's a lot of diversity represented in their classrooms, which is great.
00:17:40.480 --> 00:17:44.319
So they're not, they're not strangers to, you know, the differences in people.
00:17:44.559 --> 00:17:56.559
Um, but I try to do as much work as I can at home on helping them understand what biases exist, you know, in terms of like representation in the books that we read.
00:17:56.799 --> 00:18:00.000
Just like, oh, look, there's representation here, there's representation there.
00:18:00.160 --> 00:18:01.279
Why is that important?
00:18:01.599 --> 00:18:05.279
Some everyone needs a get to get a chance to be seen, right?
00:18:05.359 --> 00:18:09.920
In in the in media we're consuming or or in the classroom.
00:18:10.559 --> 00:18:16.240
On the parent side of things, too, I think it's important to arm them.
00:18:16.400 --> 00:18:18.720
It's not to make them feel bad, right?
00:18:19.039 --> 00:18:21.440
Like, well, you're white people, you have to think about this.
00:18:21.599 --> 00:18:34.720
Like it's not what I'm trying to do with my own kids, but I am trying to get them to understand at already in an early age what kind of privilege they hold already, just with their skin color, socioeconomically.
00:18:35.279 --> 00:18:42.000
There are a lot of good resources too about how to talk to younger kids about privilege.
00:18:42.559 --> 00:18:44.160
I think that could be helpful.
00:18:44.880 --> 00:18:46.880
Sorry, one last bit of feedback, Talia.
00:18:47.039 --> 00:18:54.319
I don't know if it's okay to that I share this, but after, do you remember that I told you about a student who talked to us after that first assembly that we did?
00:18:55.039 --> 00:18:58.000
I don't know if it's useful or not, but what what is it now?
00:18:58.079 --> 00:18:58.720
I want to know what this is.
00:18:59.440 --> 00:19:25.839
Um after the first year that Talia organized this assembly that many colleagues participated in, it was a full school assembly to celebrate black excellence, but to also address um anti-black racism and and what that could look like and what racism was, and um just kind of with the assumption that we we it was important that the whole school start with like a basic foundation of understanding and a shared understanding.
00:19:26.000 --> 00:19:39.599
Um, so we had kind of a frank conversation in the during the assembly about the fact that even at our school, we were not immune to racism or to stereotypes or bias.
00:19:39.759 --> 00:19:44.880
Um, and that even as educators and grown-ups, we were also learning alongside the students.
00:19:45.119 --> 00:20:09.359
And afterwards, a grade six student came up to me and said how important he felt it was and how good he felt hearing that from us, from the grown-ups, like acknowledging that this was something that touches everyone and that everyone has a role to play, you know, in combating in it was a really impactful bit of feedback from a student.
00:20:09.920 --> 00:20:10.799
I'm sure you told me.
00:20:10.880 --> 00:20:11.759
I don't remember that.
00:20:12.480 --> 00:20:19.920
I'm thinking a lot about probably because I was just working on our website, about the competencies for educators.
00:20:20.079 --> 00:20:23.440
And competency one is like act as a cultural facilitator.
00:20:23.519 --> 00:20:41.039
And when you're both talking, I'm hearing so many great things to kind of work on that competency, like not being an expert and the importance of building relationships in order to have those conversations about bias and identity and privilege and how valuable that is.
00:20:41.279 --> 00:20:41.920
Yeah.
00:20:42.240 --> 00:20:47.039
So I'm wondering where do you suggest educators starting?
00:20:47.200 --> 00:20:59.519
So, are there any resources or tips that you have for educators who might recognize that difficult conversations are important to have, but they might be dealing with all those hurdles that we talked about in the beginning?
00:20:59.839 --> 00:21:01.680
There's a lot out there, first of all.
00:21:01.839 --> 00:21:04.240
There's so many things out there.
00:21:04.799 --> 00:21:10.960
And I think Jessica and I both have said many times that like it is a personal work.
00:21:11.119 --> 00:21:14.319
It is something that you do need to take the time to do.
00:21:14.799 --> 00:21:19.200
So, in terms of resources, there's a great deal of books.
00:21:19.359 --> 00:21:24.799
One of them actually that we're recently doing, Jessica and I are both doing it, the L C EQ.
00:21:25.279 --> 00:21:26.960
Oh my goodness, Jessica, what's it called?
00:21:27.119 --> 00:21:31.920
The L CEQ, the anti-racist pedagogical like curriculum.
00:21:32.400 --> 00:21:35.839
We're using this book called The Anti-Racist Reading Revolution by Dr.
00:21:35.920 --> 00:21:37.119
Sonia Cherry Paul.
00:21:37.200 --> 00:21:38.160
And it's a great book.
00:21:38.240 --> 00:21:40.559
You don't need to be taking this workshop.
00:21:40.720 --> 00:21:43.119
You can be doing reading this on your own.
00:21:43.440 --> 00:21:47.279
It's a great tool to help you start.
00:21:47.440 --> 00:21:54.000
Like there's a part of it where it's really is about developing your cultural humility and understanding why it's important.
00:21:54.079 --> 00:21:59.759
And then it actually gives educators, uses books to help educators start having.
00:22:00.160 --> 00:22:02.640
Con these conversations in the classroom.
00:22:02.960 --> 00:22:06.000
So there's a quite a few books like that as well.
00:22:06.160 --> 00:22:11.119
If you want to start with things like that, uh Jessica, I know has some great workshops.
00:22:11.279 --> 00:22:14.000
I'm sure you're happy to share.
00:22:14.640 --> 00:22:14.960
Yeah.
00:22:15.039 --> 00:22:23.839
So Talia and I, for and and some of our other colleagues, um, have been following four years worth of training.
00:22:24.000 --> 00:22:31.839
It's incredible when you think about it that way, but so four years worth of training with the outdoor education school and store.
00:22:32.400 --> 00:22:38.319
They work, they do a lot of work with natural curiosity out of uh OI OISI, I think, or U of T.
00:22:38.480 --> 00:22:39.279
I'm not sure.
00:22:39.680 --> 00:22:48.640
So outdoor education school has this great training program called Four Seasons of Indigenous Learning.
00:22:48.960 --> 00:22:56.559
The first season was 101 information about the Indian Act, about colonization.
00:22:56.880 --> 00:23:10.079
Sorry, I didn't do that in chronological order, but you know, they it's really like the basics that every person, um, but especially every person living on Turtle Island uh should know.
00:23:10.319 --> 00:23:14.640
So it was it was sort of asynchronous, you just followed a program.
00:23:14.880 --> 00:23:28.720
And then the second year was all about land-based, like so connecting with the land and integrating that into your life, but then also if you were an educator, into your classroom and your your uh teaching experience.
00:23:28.960 --> 00:23:32.000
Um, and then the third season was amazing.
00:23:32.160 --> 00:23:50.160
It was with these two women who were from Rise Up, Educate Indigenous Wellness, and they were talking to us about like really applied uh strategies that we could use to share indigenous perspectives in our classrooms, even as non-Indigenous educators.
00:23:50.319 --> 00:24:10.160
Again, with lots of sensibilities towards not misappropriating culture, not trying to talk as if you know or as if you invented this or as but always sharing with permission, you know, stories and um traditions and things that so what you could share with your students.
00:24:10.319 --> 00:24:18.720
And then this fourth year is with the incredible author and educator, Joe Crona, who wrote Wa Yiwa.
00:24:19.759 --> 00:24:26.640
And she is trying to motivate us to keep going in this work because it can be very lonely work.
00:24:26.720 --> 00:24:28.319
It can be scary work.
00:24:28.720 --> 00:24:41.039
For example, for me as a non-Indigenous educator who who really feels, I feel very passionately about this, about this topic, about anti-racism.
00:24:41.279 --> 00:24:47.519
It can be a hard road sometimes when you're going up against, you know, people who aren't as enthused as you are.
00:24:47.759 --> 00:24:52.640
I'm also someone who wants things to happen very quickly all the time, and that doesn't always work out.
00:24:52.880 --> 00:25:11.599
And so she has really been, along with her co-facilitator, Jenna Jessic, have they both been really inspiring in their, you know, being real with us, saying, like, change that you want to see will not happen in our lifetime, but we are taking steps towards that.
00:25:12.000 --> 00:25:16.240
And also helping us to see, like I have a certain amount of privilege.
00:25:16.319 --> 00:25:26.079
I can kind of come in and out of my advocacy role or my energy level to sort of fight some of these fights.
00:25:26.319 --> 00:25:40.240
I have a privilege of coming in and out of those things and being non-Indigenous, being white, not experiencing daily racism or daily microaggressions or those kinds of things.
00:25:40.480 --> 00:25:46.720
So helping me to see that you can sustain your energy, you've got this, keep going.
00:25:46.960 --> 00:25:51.839
Um, you've started the work, it won't be finished, but keep going.
00:25:52.000 --> 00:26:01.359
Um, and so this program really, I don't think it's an exaggeration to say that it changed me and like the kind of educator that I am.
00:26:01.599 --> 00:26:05.119
So for me, it's kind of my guiding light these days.
00:26:05.680 --> 00:26:14.720
I think, like, you know, for just that, that was exactly what fed you and what it gave you the grounding in that whole course.
00:26:14.880 --> 00:26:17.839
It starts with the education aspect, right?
00:26:18.079 --> 00:26:19.359
So, like, what don't you know?
00:26:19.519 --> 00:26:24.480
So it really addressed that kind of and the one of the biggest fears of people not knowing.
00:26:24.640 --> 00:26:27.119
Like, I don't know, I don't know anything about this topic.
00:26:27.359 --> 00:26:32.559
So doing some education first, that was like that's the first year was all about that.
00:26:32.720 --> 00:26:38.000
And some people who we did the course with knew a lot about it, and some people knew little and some people knew nothing.
00:26:38.079 --> 00:26:39.440
So it was a really great foundation.
00:26:39.599 --> 00:26:46.319
I think that's why, even when I think of like that idea of the mirror work, it's really more about the foundational learning.
00:26:46.559 --> 00:26:58.000
Learn about reconciliation, learn about history, learn about what is anti-racism, what is racism, because not everybody really actually understands what those look like.
00:26:58.240 --> 00:27:01.759
So there's, you know, great resources out there, Abraham X.
00:27:01.920 --> 00:27:03.680
Kendi, he has a great book about it.
00:27:03.759 --> 00:27:20.400
Like that's even as somebody who is black, I that was the first thing I read to understand and started listening a lot to him to build my understanding for things I already knew intrinsically, but to give me the language and and the kind of framework for thinking about it.
00:27:20.640 --> 00:27:28.880
Because once you get those, that foundational understanding of what are we talking about, you have to, you know, you need that, then finding other resources.
00:27:28.960 --> 00:27:42.480
And I think that's the again, the framework for seasons is different resources, different tools, different ways of reframing the way we teach and the way we act and the way we think.
00:27:43.200 --> 00:27:51.920
And the variety of perspectives also that they offer, like all the different speakers that they get from across Turtle Island and also beyond.
00:27:52.160 --> 00:27:57.359
It's a really beautiful like collection of voices and perspectives.
00:27:57.599 --> 00:27:58.240
Yeah.
00:27:58.640 --> 00:28:02.559
Other workshops in PD that like I know both of us have done.
00:28:02.720 --> 00:28:05.839
I mean, we've taken, you know, I look around for it a lot.
00:28:05.920 --> 00:28:10.160
There's always different workshops out there about, you know, anti-racist pedagogy.
00:28:10.720 --> 00:28:14.480
Courageous conversations is a great place that does that.
00:28:14.640 --> 00:28:18.799
You can find them online and they actually have workshops you could take.
00:28:19.119 --> 00:28:26.160
Curated leadership also has stuff a lot about how to, you know, have difficult conversations in the workplace.
00:28:26.400 --> 00:28:29.839
And Jess, I know you've taken a few with facing history.
00:28:30.480 --> 00:28:32.559
Yeah, facing history and ourselves.
00:28:32.720 --> 00:28:40.799
It's not on offer right now, but they did have a teaching residential schools course, which also was uh impactful.
00:28:40.960 --> 00:28:59.519
Um, but I'm so glad, actually, Talia, that you brought up the workplace uh conversations in the workplace, just to also share a little bit so that again, coming from the non-expert place that we're coming from, I still am terrified of addressing certain things in my workplace.
00:28:59.839 --> 00:29:10.000
Little things that could just so easily be me kind of getting curious about something that someone has said, or, but I still can't, I got it with the kids.
00:29:10.319 --> 00:29:12.640
Like I feel so much better doing it with the kids.
00:29:12.720 --> 00:29:17.839
And, you know, we as trusted friends and colleagues have conversations like this often.
00:29:18.079 --> 00:29:24.000
But man, sometimes things come up with colleagues' expressions, right?
00:29:24.160 --> 00:29:25.920
Like they're harmless.
00:29:26.079 --> 00:29:32.319
And I put that in quotation marks because sometimes microaggressions always seem harmless to the people who are doing it.
00:29:32.640 --> 00:29:40.720
But it's like I still need to find, I need to go now and take the courageous conversations training in the class in the workplace.
00:29:40.880 --> 00:29:49.680
Because things like when people will say, you know, I'm it's pretty low down on the totem pole, like just random stuff like that.
00:29:49.759 --> 00:29:52.079
You're like, you don't need to say that.
00:29:52.319 --> 00:29:59.599
You could say, do you know what that means, or do you know where that comes from, or I'm not there yet, but I want to be, but I'm still afraid.
00:29:59.839 --> 00:30:13.119
So even with all, you know, with these like four years of this training under my belt and all the like work that we've done, the personal work that I've done, still I am confronted with these situations.
00:30:14.079 --> 00:30:16.559
I feel like that's that's part of it too, though.
00:30:16.720 --> 00:30:38.000
There's gonna be times where you make a mistake or where you think after, I should have said something, or I should have said it like that, or I this, that, and that, yeah, and and you'll have that discomfort, but we expect our students to be willing to take risks and to new things.
00:30:38.400 --> 00:30:41.680
And we always tell them, like, it's okay if you make a mistake.
00:30:41.839 --> 00:30:42.240
It's okay.
00:30:42.400 --> 00:30:43.440
Next time we'll be better.
00:30:43.519 --> 00:30:55.440
But like we have to extend that same grace to ourselves, knowing it's important to keep trying, to keep taking those risks, to be willing to grow, to be willing to change and to be willing to admit the things you don't know.
00:30:55.680 --> 00:30:57.440
And when you make mistakes.
00:30:57.759 --> 00:30:59.119
Yeah, to model that for them.
00:30:59.200 --> 00:30:59.920
You're right.
00:31:00.400 --> 00:31:02.720
Model that and for and for ourselves, right?
00:31:02.880 --> 00:31:10.400
Because if you can turn that to yourself, then it'll help you be a bit more empathetic, also your students in that, in that way.
00:31:10.720 --> 00:31:13.680
So, but I know, I know those conversations are hard.
00:31:13.759 --> 00:31:14.559
It's hard sometimes.
00:31:14.799 --> 00:31:16.000
You're like, why didn't I say that?
00:31:16.079 --> 00:31:18.319
Or oh, I shouldn't, I shouldn't let that go.
00:31:18.480 --> 00:31:22.559
Because the silence can have real consequences, you know.
00:31:22.720 --> 00:31:26.400
But exactly and do everything all the time all at once.
00:31:26.480 --> 00:31:27.359
It's a process.
00:31:27.519 --> 00:31:31.039
Nothing, nothing happens fast, nothing, you know.
00:31:31.279 --> 00:31:33.759
It's deep, meaningful slow change.
00:31:34.240 --> 00:31:36.079
I hate slow change.
00:31:37.440 --> 00:31:43.680
When I Stacy, when I came in like doing this work, I came in so hot when I started working.
00:31:43.839 --> 00:31:48.079
Like, especially in high school, I was in high school, so like I could talk about anything with kids.
00:31:48.240 --> 00:31:52.480
So I would always focus on like deficit stuff.
00:31:52.720 --> 00:32:03.759
We were always talking about like the lack of water on First Nations reserves and um, you know, modern day slavery and how people of color disproportionately affected by that.
00:32:03.920 --> 00:32:09.440
And, you know, I I like I really came in like, we're gonna fix all this, we're gonna tell you all about residential schools.
00:32:09.599 --> 00:32:12.640
And I really, yeah, I've learned a lot.
00:32:13.359 --> 00:32:16.160
But I need to learn patience still.
00:32:16.640 --> 00:32:18.079
It's part of it, right?
00:32:18.319 --> 00:32:18.960
It's part of it.
00:32:19.119 --> 00:32:25.119
It's the passion to you, you want to make a difference, you want things to change, you want them to understand it.
00:32:25.200 --> 00:32:27.759
And then after you're like, okay, wait, hold on a second.
00:32:27.839 --> 00:32:32.960
What's the first thing that they've ever learnt about indigenous people?
00:32:33.119 --> 00:32:33.359
Yes.
00:32:33.519 --> 00:32:35.680
Like, is that really the first thing you want them to learn?
00:32:35.839 --> 00:32:38.559
And and we've had these conversations so so many times.
00:32:38.640 --> 00:32:41.440
Uh, you know, like what are they understanding?
00:32:41.839 --> 00:32:44.640
Are we just fueling their misconceptions?
00:32:44.799 --> 00:32:46.319
Are we fueling types?
00:32:46.480 --> 00:32:50.559
So finding that like balance, you know, it's a delicate balance.
00:32:51.119 --> 00:33:12.319
But, you know, the the truth is also when you know these conversations are having early on, then you can go in in high school or in whatever grade five, or you know, because you know that they've had all these other positive, more balanced experiences, um, learning and understanding.
00:33:12.559 --> 00:33:14.559
So yeah, totally.
00:33:15.279 --> 00:33:29.599
Another place where educators could start is maybe finding a buddy at work uh through some of the trainings that this this year of four seasons, we've been connecting with other workshop participants.
00:33:29.759 --> 00:33:50.319
And people often are alone in their school doing this work, often in communities that are that already are kind of anti, again, like against talking about, for example, reconciliation, against covering any kind of information about First Nations Metis or Inuit people in the schools.
00:33:50.559 --> 00:33:52.640
And so they're they're very alone.
00:33:53.279 --> 00:34:11.840
So reaching out, if you can find someone at school to to work with or do a workshop with, or perhaps it is through connection virtually, you know, with people across Turtle Island, but finding someone to help sustain you, I think can be helpful, good, a good place to start.
00:34:12.639 --> 00:34:18.320
Those were the best when we were doing it together and we would meet regularly, have lunch, and talk about it.
00:34:18.639 --> 00:34:22.400
I feel like those are the the times that really things set in.
00:34:22.480 --> 00:34:36.000
And then you can also, you know, like I got this or this is, you know, you can kind of take those risks also in a safe place to express what you know or understand or don't know.
00:34:36.239 --> 00:34:40.639
And it helps you to feel a little bit more confident as you move forward.
00:34:40.960 --> 00:34:44.159
Yeah, we were very lucky, I felt, to have that group.
00:34:45.760 --> 00:34:54.480
And another option is also to kind of practice or put out feelers with like your family and friends, for example.
00:34:54.639 --> 00:35:01.039
Even just finding out what people know or don't know in your inner circle, I've I found it helpful.
00:35:01.280 --> 00:35:05.760
Like my mother, for example, you know, didn't didn't know about residential schools.
00:35:06.000 --> 00:35:10.159
They never learned about that at at school, obviously when she was younger.
00:35:10.400 --> 00:35:24.719
And then when I came back from some work I was doing in James Bay and and shared this with her because a survivor had shared their story with me, also the first time I was learning about it at, you know, 25 or however old I was, and brought it home to her.
00:35:24.960 --> 00:35:39.280
And in unpacking it together, it helped give me the courage to start sharing this information, not the experience, because the experience was not mine, but to spread this information to as many people as I could.
00:35:39.599 --> 00:35:39.920
Yeah.
00:35:40.000 --> 00:35:55.599
And then people who know you, as Talia will often tell me, like, people who know me know my intentions and might be perhaps more forgiving of like, like you said, if I've made mistakes or if I've come at something not in an insensitive way that I can reframe.
00:35:55.760 --> 00:35:59.360
So you can do that more easily with with people who know you.
00:36:00.000 --> 00:36:00.480
Yeah.
00:36:00.800 --> 00:36:10.559
That was it reminds me of our learning lunches when we when the first time we did the learning lunches for Black History Month and talking about race and racism.
00:36:10.639 --> 00:36:17.519
And we just invited our colleagues to come and we were honest about like just it's okay.
00:36:17.840 --> 00:36:19.199
There's no stupid questions.
00:36:19.280 --> 00:36:23.440
Like they're really, we really for us, we were able to do that.
00:36:24.000 --> 00:36:26.960
And not everybody's gonna be comfortable with doing that.
00:36:27.199 --> 00:36:29.440
Being around that, I get that for sure.
00:36:29.599 --> 00:36:30.559
For us, it worked.
00:36:30.719 --> 00:36:34.000
Also, you know, the type of school we're in, this it's a small school.
00:36:34.159 --> 00:36:36.480
We already have the relationships a bit more built in.
00:36:36.719 --> 00:36:40.480
But I think being able to have those conversations together is really helpful.
00:36:40.639 --> 00:36:46.480
But I think it's important to remember that, you know, it's gonna be different for everybody and depends on who you are, where to start.
00:36:46.639 --> 00:36:56.320
So I love that idea of lunches and things with colleagues, because, you know, in a way, nobody can really be an expert at every identity.
00:36:56.480 --> 00:37:00.960
There's so many different identities and people in this world that it's impossible.
00:37:01.119 --> 00:37:18.800
So just creating those opportunities where you can reflect on the resources and different experiences you have teaching with colleagues and family and students, because we as you shared, Jessica, like students when they hear that educators and teachers are still learning, like they're not an expert.
00:37:18.880 --> 00:37:22.400
It's like opens the door for them to make mistakes.
00:37:22.719 --> 00:37:29.599
When you're talking, all I'm thinking is a snowball effect in terms of like it can take generations to see change.
00:37:29.760 --> 00:37:41.360
So maybe today we're just starting, but those students, when they grow up, some of them might become educators too, and they're gonna be maybe more open to having those conversations with their students and things as well.
00:37:41.679 --> 00:37:45.199
So that's that's the hope, you know.
00:37:46.400 --> 00:37:50.719
I feel like maybe, maybe I'm reading your mind, Jess, who knows?
00:37:50.960 --> 00:38:04.880
But I feel like a lot of, you know, in terms of the work, kind of some of the through line is also, yes, learning workshops, trainings, courses, books, read, you know, educate yourself, but it is like the relationships.
00:38:05.119 --> 00:38:18.960
So learning with others, through others, you know, getting out of your comfort zone, developing your racial literacy, your gender literacy, your cultural literacy, all those areas.
00:38:19.119 --> 00:38:21.840
You can't do those alone, you know.
00:38:22.079 --> 00:38:23.920
You can't really do them alone with the book.
00:38:24.079 --> 00:38:28.880
You have to get out there, you have to con have conversations, you have to have new experiences.
00:38:29.280 --> 00:38:30.880
Um yeah.
00:38:31.440 --> 00:38:33.440
Yes, did read my mind.
00:38:34.159 --> 00:38:36.239
You just said it so much more eloquently.
00:38:36.480 --> 00:38:48.559
Well, because remember, in the presentation, my whole thing was the way I like to learn is really being in contact, preferably sort of one-to-one, face-to-face, but if it has to be virtual, fine.
00:38:48.639 --> 00:38:54.880
But I do really love the energy exchange with other human beings.
00:38:55.280 --> 00:38:56.800
I I thrive on that.
00:38:56.880 --> 00:39:00.559
It I take it in, I think about it for days and weeks afterwards.
00:39:00.719 --> 00:39:18.159
And it's true that um that takes a lot of time to you, like you said, Stacey, you can't possibly meet, you know, one person from every different sort of group or nor would they represent the entirety of right?
00:39:18.800 --> 00:39:19.760
That's right.
00:39:19.920 --> 00:39:32.960
Um, but even if you had at least one real human story, um, I think I think it could help people break down a lot of these fears that they have and the walls that they have.
00:39:33.119 --> 00:39:43.840
Um it just it also makes me think of like people who say, well, you know, we we can't cover all of the, let's say, celebrations during the year or hot topics during the year.
00:39:43.920 --> 00:39:46.480
So I'm not gonna cover any because it's not fair.
00:39:46.639 --> 00:39:48.800
Um, because there's so many.
00:39:49.039 --> 00:40:06.559
I I just feel like, well, if you if you start as we're starting, if you start small or start with something that resonates with you or something that maybe represents a student students in your class or students in your school, then isn't that better than doing nothing?
00:40:07.199 --> 00:40:14.239
It has to be doing something small has to be better than doing nothing, even though it's very hard to get out of all or nothing thinking.
00:40:14.800 --> 00:40:17.519
And well, because you can't possibly do everything.
00:40:17.599 --> 00:40:28.159
You cannot celebrate every single day, know which every every single thing that's going on for every, you know, like that's not but you know how people use that often as like a so we shouldn't do anything.
00:40:28.400 --> 00:40:28.960
Yeah.
00:40:29.280 --> 00:40:49.760
But then it's like, but if you set this culture, this foundation in your classroom, in your school, where people feel like seen for who they are, and that they can then be like, oh, you know, at home, this is actually in my family, this is happening today.
00:40:49.920 --> 00:41:01.280
So you might not have known that, but they're gonna know, oh, I could say I'm safe to come and tell Jessica that this is a special day in my, you know, in my family and my culture, my whatever it is.
00:41:01.519 --> 00:41:11.280
Um, so then it that brings it forward and you you're just creating this environment where it's it's people are safe to be who they are and they feel seen.
00:41:11.519 --> 00:41:16.239
And I don't know, I just think then it it's not about the all or nothing.
00:41:16.400 --> 00:41:18.480
It's about it's about the environment, right?
00:41:18.639 --> 00:41:22.000
So I think people like to use that as an excuse, really.
00:41:22.559 --> 00:41:25.519
And I think it can be explicitly said to students, right?
00:41:25.599 --> 00:41:39.119
Like there are so many holidays and celebrations, we cannot cover them all, but here's one or two that we can, you know, or here's one or two stories from this community that we can share, but there are millions more.
00:41:39.360 --> 00:41:45.679
And if as long as we're explicit and saying there's still lots to learn, it's a door opening.
00:41:46.480 --> 00:41:48.159
Yes, definitely.
00:41:48.480 --> 00:41:56.800
It's also helpful when we're working with other sort of other groups that are open.
00:41:56.960 --> 00:42:09.679
So for example, if you work at a school where your administration is open to these types of things, if you're working with a classroom where the parents and carers of the students are largely, you know, supportive of what you're doing.
00:42:09.920 --> 00:42:20.000
I think we didn't quite touch on it, but there definitely can be these outside factors that might um make you feel like it's impossible to do, you know.
00:42:20.800 --> 00:42:24.800
I think it's unfortunate that we haven't had so much of that.
00:42:24.960 --> 00:42:26.880
We've had supportive environments.
00:42:27.119 --> 00:42:27.920
We really have.
00:42:28.719 --> 00:42:46.239
I would definitely say it's the exception, but it does come up still, I find people who are resistant to to talking about difficult things, even if you're assuring people that it's age appropriate, uh whether it's even in sexuality education.
00:42:46.559 --> 00:42:47.360
I thank you.
00:42:47.440 --> 00:42:48.719
I was just gonna say that.
00:42:48.960 --> 00:43:02.639
Things that for us as educators are like the basics, you know, of what's important information that's that still meets quite a bit of uh no, I can't say quite a bit, but still meets a certain amount of backlash.
00:43:02.800 --> 00:43:10.639
And then when you're someone like me who it's like the the the single single voices that go against are the ones you remember, you know?
00:43:10.880 --> 00:43:11.599
So it's hard.
00:43:11.840 --> 00:43:15.519
It's another layer to consider for educators.
00:43:16.159 --> 00:43:27.519
We always would preface our like units or anything that we were doing with communications home to the parents and carers, keeping those lines of communication open.
00:43:27.840 --> 00:43:28.400
Yeah.
00:43:28.719 --> 00:43:35.440
And explaining, and in those being like, this is what we're, you know, we're having conversations about, you know, racism, for example.
00:43:35.599 --> 00:43:37.440
And this is the way we explain it.
00:43:37.599 --> 00:43:40.639
This is that's I I don't tell them every little thing.
00:43:40.719 --> 00:43:47.840
We're doing this, this, but this is how we explain this concept to your children so that parents could then understand, okay, this is actually what they're talking about.
00:43:47.920 --> 00:43:51.760
Because again, what you don't talk about, people will fill in the blanks.
00:43:51.920 --> 00:43:55.360
So give them the information so that they're not making assumptions.
00:43:55.440 --> 00:44:07.039
So they're not developing their own kind of story about what you might be doing or how you might be explaining it, but you just explain this is it, and then it it generally seems to be clearer.
00:44:07.360 --> 00:44:11.519
Yeah, or share you could share the books that you're looking at, or that can help as well.
00:44:11.679 --> 00:44:17.360
Often I would have parents who would then get the book them themselves, or they can just watch it on YouTube as well.
00:44:17.440 --> 00:44:21.280
They don't have to buy anything so that they can watch and see what you've been looking at.
00:44:21.599 --> 00:44:33.840
Of course, they won't get the richness of, you know, the and the spontaneity of what the conversation necessarily looks like, but at least they understand where you're coming from and a little bit they understand your intent a little bit better.
00:44:35.280 --> 00:44:36.320
Thanks for sharing that.
00:44:36.400 --> 00:44:46.719
I think that's a great practice for teachers, especially with big conversations, because students might come home and still want to have questions or might have emotions related to what happened in class.
00:44:46.800 --> 00:44:52.559
So it's a great way for them to debrief or share uh with their caregivers as well.
00:44:52.880 --> 00:44:53.519
Yes.
00:44:53.760 --> 00:44:59.599
Um, and also you also risk them going home and not saying things exactly how you said them.
00:45:00.000 --> 00:45:01.679
Yeah, I was thinking the same.
00:45:01.760 --> 00:45:02.079
Yeah.
00:45:02.320 --> 00:45:05.039
So that's good when you tell the parents directly.
00:45:05.440 --> 00:45:17.440
Always good to yeah, pr preempt any misconceptions about what the kids might have heard, because even with the best of intentions, they will sometimes mishear or just misunderstand.
00:45:18.079 --> 00:45:19.760
Or not remember the words you use.
00:45:19.840 --> 00:45:24.639
So they might understand it, but they just can't communicate it in the way that we were doing it in the classroom.
00:45:24.719 --> 00:45:27.440
And then you're like, well, it was a bit more than that, but yes.
00:45:27.679 --> 00:45:28.320
Yes.
00:45:28.719 --> 00:45:48.239
Mostly I would I would experience parents being parents and carers being really appreciative of even themselves getting the help, getting the kind of the the support or the um information so that they could, as you said, Stacy, carry on or unpack anything that came home.
00:45:48.559 --> 00:45:51.039
Or maybe the kids just said, What did you do today?
00:45:51.119 --> 00:45:51.920
Nothing.
00:45:52.719 --> 00:45:53.920
It's possible.
00:45:55.519 --> 00:45:57.920
It's my grade five student.
00:45:58.159 --> 00:46:02.719
Well, thank you both of you for speaking with me today.
00:46:02.960 --> 00:46:06.320
I'd say uh Joe uh Crona says, keep going.
00:46:06.400 --> 00:46:08.159
I think you're both doing amazing work.
00:46:08.400 --> 00:46:15.679
So I look forward to continuing conversations like this with you and hearing more about your students and your own journey because I find it really inspiring.
00:46:15.840 --> 00:46:16.880
So thank you.
00:46:17.360 --> 00:46:18.639
Thank you for having us.
00:46:18.800 --> 00:46:20.000
It's been a lot of fun.
00:46:20.239 --> 00:46:25.920
And thank you, Stacey, as well, for your work that you're doing with the podcasting and with Learn.
00:46:26.480 --> 00:46:34.320
Really appreciate you giving us the platform, but also giving many people the platform to share their perspective.
