1
00:00:07,910 --> 00:00:09,559
Thank you for joining us today.
2
00:00:09,570 --> 00:00:11,150
And I'm Lisa Cabel.
3
00:00:11,180 --> 00:00:14,890
I am the National Leader of the
Employment and Labour Law team
4
00:00:14,900 --> 00:00:17,700
in KPMG Canada and KPMG Law.
5
00:00:18,060 --> 00:00:21,219
And I'd like to welcome Isabelle
Durand, Vice President and Chief
6
00:00:21,219 --> 00:00:25,200
Legal Officer for IA Financial Group,
which is one of the largest insurance
7
00:00:25,220 --> 00:00:28,530
and wealth management groups in
Canada, with operations in the US.
8
00:00:28,530 --> 00:00:28,750
9
00:00:28,750 --> 00:00:29,250
as well.
10
00:00:29,590 --> 00:00:32,430
Thank you so much for agreeing to
share your views with us today.
11
00:00:33,120 --> 00:00:33,950
Thank you for having me.
12
00:00:34,660 --> 00:00:35,540
Okay, thank you.
13
00:00:35,880 --> 00:00:38,740
Today we will talk about shifting
attitudes towards legal
14
00:00:38,740 --> 00:00:40,150
careers among younger people.
15
00:00:40,870 --> 00:00:45,530
So as the market for legal
services continues to expand
16
00:00:45,540 --> 00:00:48,690
we're hearing that the pool of
new talent is under challenge.
17
00:00:48,969 --> 00:00:53,770
The legal profession is losing appeal
to potential new entrants and younger
18
00:00:53,770 --> 00:00:58,925
lawyers are looking for a variety
of flexibility and choice in their
19
00:00:58,935 --> 00:01:04,125
career path and may be less willing
than previous generations to put in a
20
00:01:04,125 --> 00:01:09,864
decade or so, or more required for
promotion to senior ranks and partners.
21
00:01:09,875 --> 00:01:14,084
So, there's a few challenges
facing the profession.
22
00:01:14,095 --> 00:01:15,694
And let's start with
23
00:01:15,985 --> 00:01:16,535
technology.
24
00:01:16,535 --> 00:01:20,435
So how do you think we can
deploy technology to help
25
00:01:20,835 --> 00:01:22,295
bridge the legal talent gap?
26
00:01:23,925 --> 00:01:24,695
That's a great question.
27
00:01:24,705 --> 00:01:30,254
And we touched on it earlier on technology
and its potential for freeing up time
28
00:01:30,264 --> 00:01:35,889
to do more strategic, more relevant
legal work, which is over and above just
29
00:01:35,910 --> 00:01:39,699
getting access to the legal information,
being able to do, to be a trusted
30
00:01:39,720 --> 00:01:43,960
partner, to understand your partner,
to understand its tolerance, to risk
31
00:01:44,339 --> 00:01:48,009
the pain points and the other variables
that are not legal, but that factor
32
00:01:48,179 --> 00:01:49,839
that will factor into any decision.
33
00:01:49,839 --> 00:01:55,340
So the goal, I think, and the dream with
technology and AI in particular is free
34
00:01:55,340 --> 00:01:57,310
up the time of your younger lawyers.
35
00:01:57,330 --> 00:02:02,265
But of all your legal team for the
tasks that are repetitive, non value
36
00:02:02,265 --> 00:02:06,845
add, that are really just, you know,
crunching legal data or contracts or
37
00:02:06,845 --> 00:02:11,195
clauses, and get them that portion
so that they can then apply their
38
00:02:11,195 --> 00:02:13,044
intellect to the strategic part of it.
39
00:02:13,094 --> 00:02:17,205
And to the, I always find that
the best way to practice as an
40
00:02:17,205 --> 00:02:20,635
in house, in house lawyer is to
be a part of the decision making.
41
00:02:20,635 --> 00:02:25,465
So it's not that they will necessarily,
follow only your lead, but if
42
00:02:25,475 --> 00:02:28,555
you were in their shoes, if you were
the one making the decision, you
43
00:02:28,565 --> 00:02:32,005
have the legal hat, but what would
you do with all the other variables?
44
00:02:32,015 --> 00:02:36,005
Like exercise that muscle
of being over and above just
45
00:02:36,015 --> 00:02:37,194
the legal part of the advice.
46
00:02:37,195 --> 00:02:40,414
And I think at every level of the
team, that is an important
47
00:02:41,104 --> 00:02:43,125
mindset, I would say to be in.
48
00:02:43,135 --> 00:02:44,535
So how do you do this?
49
00:02:44,595 --> 00:02:50,425
If you can do the, with the help of AI
or with the help of uniformizing
50
00:02:50,425 --> 00:02:53,755
your processes, you know, making sure that
every time you look at something you look
51
00:02:53,755 --> 00:02:57,045
at it in the same way, in the way that
has been proven to be the most effective.
52
00:02:57,465 --> 00:03:01,734
Maximizing efficiency, especially
in a big volume, repetitive
53
00:03:01,735 --> 00:03:03,265
processes, it really pays.
54
00:03:03,355 --> 00:03:06,794
Like the time that you invest to
look at how do you sign a lease?
55
00:03:06,804 --> 00:03:08,025
How do you sign a loan?
56
00:03:08,375 --> 00:03:09,485
How do you issue a policy?
57
00:03:09,485 --> 00:03:12,595
Like the little things, if you
multiply them by thousands,
58
00:03:12,625 --> 00:03:13,815
they will really be worth it.
59
00:03:13,825 --> 00:03:17,274
So identify those processes
in your team that can be.
60
00:03:17,570 --> 00:03:21,030
Maximized, invest a bit of time that
will get it maximized, you know, or
61
00:03:21,060 --> 00:03:24,519
that will get it improved or more
efficient and then use the time that
62
00:03:24,530 --> 00:03:26,340
you free up to elevate your team.
63
00:03:26,359 --> 00:03:29,650
I think that's really, and I think
it makes for a more interesting job.
64
00:03:29,650 --> 00:03:33,980
So it ties in really with the topic that
we're discussing is what do lawyers want?
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00:03:34,050 --> 00:03:35,900
I'm speaking for myself.
66
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I've always wanted to.
67
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know what I was working for, understand
the business reality of the question that
68
00:03:41,430 --> 00:03:45,309
I was looking at from a legal perspective,
knowing my partners, knowing them as
69
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human beings, but knowing them also as
what keeps them up at night, what are
70
00:03:49,389 --> 00:03:52,320
their competitors doing, what is the
industry thinking, where is it headed,
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like, those are the kind of things that
if you are in the weeds, as you really
72
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accurately pointed out, you will not do.
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And you will be, less
of a good lawyer for it.
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So how do you free that time up?
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So that's our goal for technology.
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It's also technology,
but again, processes.
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And I think the two cannot be dissociated.
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So AI, if you're not, you know,
weaving it into an efficient
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process will not get you much.
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So how do you do both of those things
to free up time is really the goal.
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Yeah.
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And I think a very similar approach
applies as external counsel.
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And I think ultimately.
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Our business is about relationships,
and it's about developing relationships,
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with you know, in house
counsel, with, in our world
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usually it's, like, human resources,
professional labour relations,
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professional within the organization,
and also with the organization itself.
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So learning about, it's history
and it's trends and changes and.
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Having the ability and the time to do
that over the course of your career, I
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think, is really is what enhances the
career and, and makes it, just like,
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you know, part of like part of something
bigger that you can, develop and,
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create into, a different path.
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That maybe, you know, just sort of
focusing on, just billable hours and
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drafting documents and pleadings and all
the rest of it, which is essential to
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do, but if we can use AI to help us,
like you said, free up that time and then,
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hopefully give younger folks a more,
a better opportunity to you know,
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come out and, and see more and be part of
the meetings and part of the conversation,
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then that would encourage them to stay.
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within the profession and, continue
to, to work within the legal field.
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And so how is, IA financial group
changing its approach to improve your
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in houses and house teams appeal to
the generation of lawyers, such as,
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recruiting and training, career
paths, succession planning, all of the
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things that you may be working with
amongst your, your people in your group.
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First of all, I should say I'm fortunate
because IA Financial Group has a very
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00:06:04,700 --> 00:06:09,830
long standing tradition of coaching,
training, internal mobility, like the
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development of soft skills and of what
makes you a better worker, a better
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manager, a better executive is very
much ingrained in our company's culture.
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I would say, it's so we
have tools that are available.
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We have an extremely responsive HR
team, but, you know, coaching programs,
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co development groups that you will,
you know, pool you with people from
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different fields of business and within
the company so that you can co develop
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and exchange and also develop that
precious network that we talked about.
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So we can rely on those tools.
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I would say my approach with
development and growing is
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Get out of your comfort zone
that it's, it's worked for me.
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And so how do you as a management team
identify, you know, high potentials,
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but also lawyers that, you know, could
you think could grow in a field
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00:06:55,260 --> 00:07:00,029
and then how do you intentionally
select a file or an assignment or a new
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position where they will grow that angle
that you feel would make them a better
120
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and more well rounded professional.
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00:07:06,090 --> 00:07:08,469
So that's been very much
our focus as a team.
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00:07:09,450 --> 00:07:11,840
with the background of,
of course, business mindset.
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So you will always be more
relevant as a lawyer if you
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understand the business context.
125
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It's a given, it's obvious, it's easy
to say, but then again, day to day
126
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basis, how do you intentionally spend
that time and develop that muscle of
127
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thinking beyond just the legal world?
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00:07:28,649 --> 00:07:31,930
So that's definitely been part of what
we've been pushing as a management team.
129
00:07:32,349 --> 00:07:37,484
And I think it's made for a much
more interesting way of working.
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00:07:37,495 --> 00:07:38,794
it certainly does for me.
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And so that's what I've been trying to,
instill in the rest of the team.
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00:07:42,695 --> 00:07:43,874
And it's worked well so far.
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That's great.
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Yeah.
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00:07:45,885 --> 00:07:50,034
Well, I'd like to just get a final,
word from you today and thank you
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00:07:50,034 --> 00:07:54,325
again for sharing your thoughts and,
and what lies ahead for your legal
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00:07:54,354 --> 00:07:57,644
profession, as well as the group that
you oversee, it sounds like there's
138
00:07:57,644 --> 00:08:00,859
a lot of really exciting things
that I may take your tip on.
139
00:08:01,020 --> 00:08:04,010
developing recipes
with AI away from today.
140
00:08:05,060 --> 00:08:09,130
But as a final question, what do you
believe are the most critical areas
141
00:08:09,140 --> 00:08:12,699
for general counsel to consider,
to prepare your in house
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00:08:12,699 --> 00:08:14,270
team for success for the future?
143
00:08:15,379 --> 00:08:16,140
We touched on it.
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I would go back to business mindset.
145
00:08:18,010 --> 00:08:21,109
And business mindset is more than just
understanding the business, you know,
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00:08:21,420 --> 00:08:23,930
numbers, it's who are your partners?
147
00:08:24,220 --> 00:08:25,580
Who are they as human beings?
148
00:08:25,580 --> 00:08:26,750
What keeps them up at night?
149
00:08:26,780 --> 00:08:27,810
What do they care about?
150
00:08:27,850 --> 00:08:28,760
Where do they want to go?
151
00:08:28,789 --> 00:08:30,199
What's their strategic direction?
152
00:08:30,199 --> 00:08:30,304
153
00:08:30,455 --> 00:08:34,655
And how can you as a legal professional
amplify this and enable it?
154
00:08:34,985 --> 00:08:37,444
That should really be our
focus in everything we do.
155
00:08:38,674 --> 00:08:39,194
That's great.
156
00:08:39,204 --> 00:08:41,164
Well, thank you again
for joining us today.
157
00:08:41,164 --> 00:08:45,115
We appreciate you spending the time with
us and sharing your thoughts and insights.
158
00:08:45,814 --> 00:08:46,314
Thank you, Lisa.
159
00:08:46,334 --> 00:08:46,935
It was a pleasure.
00:00:07,910 --> 00:00:09,559
Thank you for joining us today.
2
00:00:09,570 --> 00:00:11,150
And I'm Lisa Cabel.
3
00:00:11,180 --> 00:00:14,890
I am the National Leader of the
Employment and Labour Law team
4
00:00:14,900 --> 00:00:17,700
in KPMG Canada and KPMG Law.
5
00:00:18,060 --> 00:00:21,219
And I'd like to welcome Isabelle
Durand, Vice President and Chief
6
00:00:21,219 --> 00:00:25,200
Legal Officer for IA Financial Group,
which is one of the largest insurance
7
00:00:25,220 --> 00:00:28,530
and wealth management groups in
Canada, with operations in the US.
8
00:00:28,530 --> 00:00:28,750
9
00:00:28,750 --> 00:00:29,250
as well.
10
00:00:29,590 --> 00:00:32,430
Thank you so much for agreeing to
share your views with us today.
11
00:00:33,120 --> 00:00:33,950
Thank you for having me.
12
00:00:34,660 --> 00:00:35,540
Okay, thank you.
13
00:00:35,880 --> 00:00:38,740
Today we will talk about shifting
attitudes towards legal
14
00:00:38,740 --> 00:00:40,150
careers among younger people.
15
00:00:40,870 --> 00:00:45,530
So as the market for legal
services continues to expand
16
00:00:45,540 --> 00:00:48,690
we're hearing that the pool of
new talent is under challenge.
17
00:00:48,969 --> 00:00:53,770
The legal profession is losing appeal
to potential new entrants and younger
18
00:00:53,770 --> 00:00:58,925
lawyers are looking for a variety
of flexibility and choice in their
19
00:00:58,935 --> 00:01:04,125
career path and may be less willing
than previous generations to put in a
20
00:01:04,125 --> 00:01:09,864
decade or so, or more required for
promotion to senior ranks and partners.
21
00:01:09,875 --> 00:01:14,084
So, there's a few challenges
facing the profession.
22
00:01:14,095 --> 00:01:15,694
And let's start with
23
00:01:15,985 --> 00:01:16,535
technology.
24
00:01:16,535 --> 00:01:20,435
So how do you think we can
deploy technology to help
25
00:01:20,835 --> 00:01:22,295
bridge the legal talent gap?
26
00:01:23,925 --> 00:01:24,695
That's a great question.
27
00:01:24,705 --> 00:01:30,254
And we touched on it earlier on technology
and its potential for freeing up time
28
00:01:30,264 --> 00:01:35,889
to do more strategic, more relevant
legal work, which is over and above just
29
00:01:35,910 --> 00:01:39,699
getting access to the legal information,
being able to do, to be a trusted
30
00:01:39,720 --> 00:01:43,960
partner, to understand your partner,
to understand its tolerance, to risk
31
00:01:44,339 --> 00:01:48,009
the pain points and the other variables
that are not legal, but that factor
32
00:01:48,179 --> 00:01:49,839
that will factor into any decision.
33
00:01:49,839 --> 00:01:55,340
So the goal, I think, and the dream with
technology and AI in particular is free
34
00:01:55,340 --> 00:01:57,310
up the time of your younger lawyers.
35
00:01:57,330 --> 00:02:02,265
But of all your legal team for the
tasks that are repetitive, non value
36
00:02:02,265 --> 00:02:06,845
add, that are really just, you know,
crunching legal data or contracts or
37
00:02:06,845 --> 00:02:11,195
clauses, and get them that portion
so that they can then apply their
38
00:02:11,195 --> 00:02:13,044
intellect to the strategic part of it.
39
00:02:13,094 --> 00:02:17,205
And to the, I always find that
the best way to practice as an
40
00:02:17,205 --> 00:02:20,635
in house, in house lawyer is to
be a part of the decision making.
41
00:02:20,635 --> 00:02:25,465
So it's not that they will necessarily,
follow only your lead, but if
42
00:02:25,475 --> 00:02:28,555
you were in their shoes, if you were
the one making the decision, you
43
00:02:28,565 --> 00:02:32,005
have the legal hat, but what would
you do with all the other variables?
44
00:02:32,015 --> 00:02:36,005
Like exercise that muscle
of being over and above just
45
00:02:36,015 --> 00:02:37,194
the legal part of the advice.
46
00:02:37,195 --> 00:02:40,414
And I think at every level of the
team, that is an important
47
00:02:41,104 --> 00:02:43,125
mindset, I would say to be in.
48
00:02:43,135 --> 00:02:44,535
So how do you do this?
49
00:02:44,595 --> 00:02:50,425
If you can do the, with the help of AI
or with the help of uniformizing
50
00:02:50,425 --> 00:02:53,755
your processes, you know, making sure that
every time you look at something you look
51
00:02:53,755 --> 00:02:57,045
at it in the same way, in the way that
has been proven to be the most effective.
52
00:02:57,465 --> 00:03:01,734
Maximizing efficiency, especially
in a big volume, repetitive
53
00:03:01,735 --> 00:03:03,265
processes, it really pays.
54
00:03:03,355 --> 00:03:06,794
Like the time that you invest to
look at how do you sign a lease?
55
00:03:06,804 --> 00:03:08,025
How do you sign a loan?
56
00:03:08,375 --> 00:03:09,485
How do you issue a policy?
57
00:03:09,485 --> 00:03:12,595
Like the little things, if you
multiply them by thousands,
58
00:03:12,625 --> 00:03:13,815
they will really be worth it.
59
00:03:13,825 --> 00:03:17,274
So identify those processes
in your team that can be.
60
00:03:17,570 --> 00:03:21,030
Maximized, invest a bit of time that
will get it maximized, you know, or
61
00:03:21,060 --> 00:03:24,519
that will get it improved or more
efficient and then use the time that
62
00:03:24,530 --> 00:03:26,340
you free up to elevate your team.
63
00:03:26,359 --> 00:03:29,650
I think that's really, and I think
it makes for a more interesting job.
64
00:03:29,650 --> 00:03:33,980
So it ties in really with the topic that
we're discussing is what do lawyers want?
65
00:03:34,050 --> 00:03:35,900
I'm speaking for myself.
66
00:03:35,929 --> 00:03:37,439
I've always wanted to.
67
00:03:37,590 --> 00:03:41,430
know what I was working for, understand
the business reality of the question that
68
00:03:41,430 --> 00:03:45,309
I was looking at from a legal perspective,
knowing my partners, knowing them as
69
00:03:45,309 --> 00:03:49,389
human beings, but knowing them also as
what keeps them up at night, what are
70
00:03:49,389 --> 00:03:52,320
their competitors doing, what is the
industry thinking, where is it headed,
71
00:03:52,320 --> 00:03:56,179
like, those are the kind of things that
if you are in the weeds, as you really
72
00:03:56,209 --> 00:03:58,450
accurately pointed out, you will not do.
73
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And you will be, less
of a good lawyer for it.
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So how do you free that time up?
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So that's our goal for technology.
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It's also technology,
but again, processes.
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And I think the two cannot be dissociated.
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So AI, if you're not, you know,
weaving it into an efficient
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process will not get you much.
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So how do you do both of those things
to free up time is really the goal.
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Yeah.
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And I think a very similar approach
applies as external counsel.
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And I think ultimately.
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Our business is about relationships,
and it's about developing relationships,
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with you know, in house
counsel, with, in our world
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usually it's, like, human resources,
professional labour relations,
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professional within the organization,
and also with the organization itself.
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So learning about, it's history
and it's trends and changes and.
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Having the ability and the time to do
that over the course of your career, I
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think, is really is what enhances the
career and, and makes it, just like,
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you know, part of like part of something
bigger that you can, develop and,
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create into, a different path.
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00:05:06,349 --> 00:05:11,489
That maybe, you know, just sort of
focusing on, just billable hours and
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drafting documents and pleadings and all
the rest of it, which is essential to
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do, but if we can use AI to help us,
like you said, free up that time and then,
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hopefully give younger folks a more,
a better opportunity to you know,
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come out and, and see more and be part of
the meetings and part of the conversation,
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then that would encourage them to stay.
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within the profession and, continue
to, to work within the legal field.
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And so how is, IA financial group
changing its approach to improve your
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in houses and house teams appeal to
the generation of lawyers, such as,
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recruiting and training, career
paths, succession planning, all of the
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things that you may be working with
amongst your, your people in your group.
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First of all, I should say I'm fortunate
because IA Financial Group has a very
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long standing tradition of coaching,
training, internal mobility, like the
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development of soft skills and of what
makes you a better worker, a better
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manager, a better executive is very
much ingrained in our company's culture.
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I would say, it's so we
have tools that are available.
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We have an extremely responsive HR
team, but, you know, coaching programs,
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co development groups that you will,
you know, pool you with people from
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different fields of business and within
the company so that you can co develop
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and exchange and also develop that
precious network that we talked about.
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So we can rely on those tools.
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I would say my approach with
development and growing is
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Get out of your comfort zone
that it's, it's worked for me.
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And so how do you as a management team
identify, you know, high potentials,
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but also lawyers that, you know, could
you think could grow in a field
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and then how do you intentionally
select a file or an assignment or a new
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position where they will grow that angle
that you feel would make them a better
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and more well rounded professional.
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So that's been very much
our focus as a team.
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with the background of,
of course, business mindset.
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So you will always be more
relevant as a lawyer if you
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understand the business context.
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It's a given, it's obvious, it's easy
to say, but then again, day to day
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basis, how do you intentionally spend
that time and develop that muscle of
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thinking beyond just the legal world?
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So that's definitely been part of what
we've been pushing as a management team.
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And I think it's made for a much
more interesting way of working.
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it certainly does for me.
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And so that's what I've been trying to,
instill in the rest of the team.
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And it's worked well so far.
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That's great.
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00:07:45,135 --> 00:07:45,495
Yeah.
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00:07:45,885 --> 00:07:50,034
Well, I'd like to just get a final,
word from you today and thank you
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again for sharing your thoughts and,
and what lies ahead for your legal
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profession, as well as the group that
you oversee, it sounds like there's
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a lot of really exciting things
that I may take your tip on.
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developing recipes
with AI away from today.
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00:08:05,060 --> 00:08:09,130
But as a final question, what do you
believe are the most critical areas
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for general counsel to consider,
to prepare your in house
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team for success for the future?
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We touched on it.
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I would go back to business mindset.
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00:08:18,010 --> 00:08:21,109
And business mindset is more than just
understanding the business, you know,
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numbers, it's who are your partners?
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Who are they as human beings?
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What keeps them up at night?
149
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What do they care about?
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Where do they want to go?
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What's their strategic direction?
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And how can you as a legal professional
amplify this and enable it?
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That should really be our
focus in everything we do.
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That's great.
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Well, thank you again
for joining us today.
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We appreciate you spending the time with
us and sharing your thoughts and insights.
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Thank you, Lisa.
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It was a pleasure.
