#710: Elizabeth Williamson Returns

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Speaker 1: Now it's fire.
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Speaker 2: Dan and Jordan, I am sweating. KnowledgeFight.com. It's time to pray.
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Speaker 1: I have great respect for Knowledge Fight. Knowledge Fight. I'm sick of them posing as if they're the good guys, saying we are the bad guys.
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Speaker 2: Knowledge Fight. Dan and Jordan.
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Speaker 1: Knowledge Fight.
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Speaker 2: Need money. Andy in Kansas. Andy in Kansas. Stop it. Andy in Kansas. Andy in Kansas. Andy. It's time to pray. Andy in Kansas. You're on the air. Thanks for holding.
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Speaker 3: Hello, Alex.
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Speaker 4: I'm a first-time caller.
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Speaker 1: I'm a huge fan.
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Speaker 4: I love your work. Knowledge fight.
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Speaker 1: Knowledgefight.com. I love you. Hey everybody, welcome back to another episode of Knowledge Fight. I'm Dan. I'm Jordan. We're a couple dudes who like to sit around, worship at the altar of Selene from afar while we're in this hotel room and talk a little bit about Alex Jones. Oh, indeed we are, Dan. Jordan.
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Speaker 5: Dan!
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Speaker 1: Jordan. Quick question for you. What's up? What's your bright spot today, buddy? My bright spot, Jordan, is I'm going to steal yours. You've already stolen mine! You fighting with Robert Barnes on Twitter. Ha ha ha! No, that one wasn't mine. Oh, no, that's not mine. But yes, that is. I thought that was going to be for sure. One of the great delights of my life.
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Speaker 5: Yes.
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Speaker 1: And InfoWars character accidentally stepped into your Twitter mentions and got blown up with all people. What a bad idea. Good work, Barnes. Getting ratioed like crazy. Oh, man.
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Speaker 4: I wouldn't have a nickname that is that belittling and then step into that arena.
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Speaker 1: That would be me. I would avoid that. It was fun to see. Of all the Twitter nonsense that you're getting into, that was definitely a peak for me. What about you?
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Speaker 4: My bright spot or my dark spot, I don't know. Whatever it is, we found out today that the man... the myth, the legend, will be testifying in open court.
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Speaker 1: Tomorrow, Alex Jones is supposed to take the stand in the trial. Indeed. As we're recording this, or it'll basically be today as the episode's coming out.
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Speaker 5: Right.
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Speaker 4: And you would think, because here's why it's my bright spot, because if you were a wise man who was going to testify on your own behalf, you would absolutely stick to what you said in your deposition, thus proving that you are not a liar.
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Speaker 1: That seems like it's going to be tough.
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Speaker 2: Oh, yeah.
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Speaker 1: Yeah, because he said a lot of things in that deposition. Oh, yeah. Yeah, I think that'll be wild to see. And I don't know what to expect. I think I'm going to shave my beard so I can be super incognito. We should definitely be doing that. But yeah, we'll see. We'll be there and give you all a full report on the other side. Of course. So, Jordan, today, as opposed to an episode talking about what's going on on Alex's show, I thought it would be fun to have a guest come in and talk about the goings-on here in the trial room. Talk about some of the experiences that we've been seeing, some of the coverage. No way. Would it be a guest who is also in Austin? Yes. No way. Yes, but not in the room with us. Absolutely not. Stuff is dicey. But welcoming back to the podcast, Elizabeth Williamson. Thank you for joining us.
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Speaker 5: Hey, you guys. Good to be not with you.
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Speaker 1: Now, let me ask you this. What is your bright spot? Oh, yeah, obviously.
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Speaker 5: Oh, my gosh. So, OK, so completely not trial related. My bright spot was that for the first time since I've been here, which is almost a week, I did get out for a run this morning and it was only 90 as opposed to 101.
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Speaker 1: So you must have gone for that run at like 3 a.m. It was at about 630. Yeah. I would have figured it would be 110 by then. Yeah, no kidding.
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Speaker 5: Yeah, well, by the end, I have to say, by the end, it was getting close to, yeah, vomitsville temperature.
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Speaker 1: Totally. Well, congratulations on mustering the drive to do that. I've been telling myself I'm going to go to the gym in our hotel for, well, we've been here a week. I've been saying it for a week. And instead, I have s'mores snack mix. I'm glad you enjoy them. I bought them for you.
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Speaker 5: I think I did tell you guys about the shameful moment where I went out to go for a run and I wound up at Voodoo Donuts.
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Speaker 1: And I told you there is no shame in that. I'm running away from being healthy.
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Speaker 5: Yeah.
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Speaker 1: What did you get at the Voodoo Donuts?
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Speaker 5: So they have a limited edition banana cream pie donut. Yeah. That was a lot of frosting.
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Speaker 2: Yeah.
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Speaker 5: And then the diet donut that I got just to feel a little bit better about myself. So it's the voodoo donuts version of a salad. It's cinnamon cake donuts.
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Speaker 4: I got this peanut butter banana thing. Some sort of an Elvis situation? No idea, but it was the size of a horse's flank. It was absurd to try and fit that anywhere near my mouth. I'm ashamed to say that over two days, I ate a third of it.
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Speaker 5: Yeah, mine was so sort of sticky that I couldn't really finish it. And then I didn't know what to do with it because I didn't want to throw it into the hotel wastebasket.
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Speaker 1: Your room will just smell like donut.
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Speaker 5: So I actually put it in the toilet.
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Speaker 4: What?
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Speaker 1: I thought this was going to be a, I threw it off the balcony situation. I really thought that we were going to a different direction. I mean, did you leave it there? It's a solution to the problem.
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Speaker 5: I flushed it. It was kind of like cutting out the middle.
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Speaker 1: Man, right? That is crafty. The alligators got a little bit bigger yesterday.
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Speaker 5: And they all smell like bananas.
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Speaker 1: I personally can't get away from the Oh, Captain, My Captain, the Captain Crunch donut. And I hate myself every single time. Oh, it's good. It's kind of stressful.
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Speaker 5: You're standing in that line. And you don't really know unless you do the QR code, which I'm not very good at, what your choices are. So I'm looking at the sort of revolving, you know, that old school bakery, you know, like diner revolving display as you get up to the checkout and you're like, All right. What do I choose? What do I choose? It's kind of a it's a stressful moment. So I did see that that post.
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Speaker 4: I'm going to tell you something in a non misogynist way. I'm going to do my best to do this.
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Speaker 5: OK.
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Speaker 1: All right. They deliver, baby.
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Speaker 5: Yeah.
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Speaker 1: Oh, they do. They'll bring it to your door. Yeah, I had to do that myself because I couldn't. Well, basically the moment that you're describing, Liz, the kid in a candy store, but like, I'm not a kid. I'm not going to soup Nazi a donut. You bring it to my home.
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Speaker 2: Exactly.
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Speaker 5: It was kind of fun, though, to go there early in the morning because it's a combination of people who are like you, who really want to get there before the line forms, and people who are waiting for you to buy them one and give it to them on the street.
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Speaker 1: So, yeah, when I was in town for the depositions, I went there at night. I went there like after we'd all got done with everything. I think it was probably like 11 or something. And there were just drunk people hanging out at Foodoo Donuts. Oh, yeah.
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Speaker 5: I think it is kind of an after the yeah, after the party kind of place.
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Speaker 1: I'm not sure that's what I want after a big night.
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Speaker 4: If you're a donut shop that stays open past 11, you are giving drunk people donuts.
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Speaker 1: That's your business model. Definitely. I want nachos or something. But I want.
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Speaker 5: Mine filled with chili. I think if I went there after the bars, yeah, I'd want some kind of chili thing.
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Speaker 4: I think you just created a situation that gives Dan a heart attack in two years.
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Speaker 1: Chili mac. Chili and mac and cheese inside a donut. Oh, that's a million dollar idea, Liz. You've killed him. You've killed my best friend. How dare you?
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Speaker 5: It's like a pastry turducken.
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Speaker 1: So good. So good.
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Speaker 5: Chili, mac and cheese.
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Speaker 1: All right. Liz, we are here not just for donuts, although they are more positive in many ways than a lot of the other stuff that's happening in town.
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Speaker 5: I think that's why we fled to that subject.
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Speaker 1: Yeah. You got it. Greener pastures, flushing donuts.
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Speaker 4: I can't believe I told you that.
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Speaker 5: That's kind of a shameful episode.
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Speaker 1: Hey, listen, you didn't tell us. You told everybody.
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Speaker 5: I know, I did.
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Speaker 1: This is humanizing.
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Speaker 2: Yes, yes.
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Speaker 1: Who amongst the wonks has not flushed a donut? I will tell you it is very rare to not find a flushed donut.
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Speaker 2: It was not much of a donut.
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Speaker 5: It wasn't a whole big thing. I just, you know, I didn't destroy the environment or ruin the plumbing.
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Speaker 1: Good, good.
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Speaker 5: Only my own plumbing by eating most of it.
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Speaker 4: That is how much we don't want to get to the trial is that we almost got there and then immediately we're like, nope.
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Speaker 1: Back to donuts.
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Speaker 5: Back to donuts.
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Speaker 1: Pull a U-turn. So I wanted to ask you a little bit, because we're all in town to observe and experience this trial. You in a far more professional capacity than us. Usually, yes. But you also have had more experience on this story in particular. you know, following the Sandy Hook story, um, with your, your book that it came out recently. Um, yeah, to engage in a cliche, you literally wrote the book on this case. Yeah. Yeah. So I was wondering how you've experienced it so far.
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Speaker 5: So I have to say, you know, I, I worried about a little bit because as you say, you know, writing the book, I got kind of invested in, um, definitely the plight of the families and got to know them pretty well. And, um, and today I, you know, listening to, um, Mr. Crouch, the, the therapist who has worked with Neil Heslin and Scarlett Lewis, I did have a couple moments where I was, um, I, I really got a little bit emotional about, you know, what he had to say about their struggle, you know, with everything, you know, and he described this sort of two buckets. One, you lose your son in a mass shooting and And the second bucket, people call you a liar and say that not only was he not killed in that way, that he never existed. And, um, and at one point, you know, they, that Mr. Crouch, the therapist was being, you know, prompted to say, well, what does that actually mean? You know, when, when, as a parent, you're kind of dealing with those claims and he said, you so important to Neil and Scarlett, Jesse's parents, that he mattered, you know, that, that this was, and, and Jesse in particular, um, has a very particular narrative. And that's that, you know, he, when the gunman entered his classroom and started shooting, there was a pause in the shooting where either the magazine jammed or he was reloading And Jesse yelled, run. And nine children ran and they survived. And and so, you know, one thing that I'm sure that Neil and Scarlett will speak about is that he was actually given a fallen hero's funeral because the police, you know, recognize that as an act of heroism. And the children who survived said what had happened and that's how they knew. So that part of his life is tremendously important to Neil and Scarlett, as you can imagine. And this idea that that would be taken from them. The first thing they, they both told me and I met them separately. Um, but the first thing they told me was that story. Um, and so it's so important to them and to have that stripped from them, um, you know, and their, their therapist obviously described it so well. It is, it's like saying, you know, it's, it's taking that last bit that someone would cling to, um, and, and saying that these were his final moments. He was a fine child and, and saved his classmates in his final moments. And to think that someone in order to sell supplements or, you know, I, would take that, that, that shred from you is really, that really got me.
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Speaker 6: I gotta say, you know, the, the thing that got me about that is the, uh, the, the therapist is as much and as powerful as that story was when he was asked, what's the most important thing to the parents?
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Speaker 1: What's the most important thing to them?
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Speaker 4: He didn't say that his, he was remembered as a hero or he was remembered as somebody who saved anybody.
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Speaker 1: He choked up and he said, the most important thing to.
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Speaker 4: Me or the most important thing to the parents is just to let people know, to let the world know that he lived.
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Speaker 5: Yeah. that he mattered. That word, he mattered. That was when I actually did have to look down and compose myself.
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Speaker 1: Oh, I cried like a baby. I was in my hotel room.
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Speaker 4: I didn't have to worry about people like judging me in the courtroom, weeping uncontrollably.
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Speaker 1: Yeah.
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Speaker 5: That, and you know why? Because that, those words were, uh, Veronique de la Rosa, who is the mother of Noah Posner, who is the youngest Sandy Hook victim. Um, she, right after the shooting, she said the same thing, um, to Anderson Cooper in an interview. She said, I just want people to know that he mattered. He mattered, you know, and that, that, um, I don't know something about that for now I'm going to have to take a beat here, but something about that formulation is, um, you know, like It just speaks to how much is stripped from you when you lose a loved one in this way, particularly your child, that you're then kind of by yourself saying, he mattered. I mean, really? That just speaks to the utter desolation that these parents must feel.
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Speaker 1: Yeah, I found almost everything that went on today quite heavy and impactful, of course, for a lot of those same reasons we're touching on.
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Speaker 4: And that's one reason that I think I want to ask you about a couple of questions about the trial, just because after we heard that testimony, we also saw the.
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Speaker 1: Way that the defense behaved.
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Speaker 4: In their, uh, cross-examination and how the, the judge, uh, was not happy with their behavior. Did you, did you experience that in, uh, in that kind of way?
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Speaker 5: Yeah. And so here's an interesting thing. So as you can well imagine, there are a lot of lawyers in these parts who are watching this trial because as we know, it's live streamed.
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Speaker 1: I know one of them was fighting with Jordan on Twitter earlier.
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Speaker 4: Hell yeah.
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Speaker 5: Yeah.
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Speaker 1: Good work Barnes.
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Speaker 5: Yeah. OK, him. But also a lot of regular lawyers who are watching this and are just riveted by this because it's such a challenging case for, you know, the the family's lawyers, obviously. And certainly for Alex Jones's lawyers. But yeah, but they were saying, you know, one of the things that, you know, the unenviable position that Alex Jones's lawyer is in is that he, of course, cannot attack Neal and Scarlett when they testify tomorrow. So the alternative that he has is to attack, you know, Dr. Lubit, who was the, you know, the forensic psychiatrist who had, you know, spoken with them and to attack Mr. Crouch, their actual therapist. So it's, you know, lower stakes to try and impeach them than to go head to head, of course, with Jesse's parents. So so that was sort of interesting. But because the therapist, Mr. Crouch was so kind of a sympathetic character himself. I mean, he actually filled up when he said that about he mattered, you know, he was filling up himself and, you know, he obviously feels very deeply, you know, for Neil and Scarlett and for Jesse and JT, his older brother. And so, I think it was a lot more difficult than they had anticipated. This wasn't a clinical guy. You know, this was somebody who was really very much invested in the plight of this family. And I think that made it super tough to kind of on cross come back and say, well, what about this? And that whole thing of showing him the diagnostic manual, the DSM-5, was just... bizarre episodes because.
00:18:55
Speaker 4: That was my favorite thing that I think has ever happened I've ever seen in a courtroom.
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Speaker 1: It looked like he just Googled something.
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Speaker 3: Exactly.
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Speaker 5: He tried to catch.
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Speaker 1: So what happened was... He was trying to catch... You're talking about the defense lawyer. Yes.
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Speaker 4: The defense lawyer was trying to catch the therapist in like a... You don't know the exact definition of PTSD, do you?
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Speaker 1: So the first thing.
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Speaker 4: He did was he tried to bring up the definition to the therapist and realized that he had brought the wrong version of the DSM, which was an issue. So then he went to the APA's website... to try and find the definition in the DSM-5. However, he found the APA's summary definition of the DSM-5 and in so doing revealed that he had no idea what he was doing.
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Speaker 1: Was talking about.
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Speaker 4: The therapist went, I don't think I know what you're I don't think I know what you're showing me.
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Speaker 1: And then he just changed questions. And then the lawyer turned around and ran into a chef.
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Speaker 2: 100%.
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Speaker 1: Absolutely.
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Speaker 3: Yes.
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Speaker 5: Oh, no. There are two guys walking by holding a glass pane.
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Speaker 1: Yeah. I was watching. I was watching that. And I did. I found it to be really uncomfortable because even executed. Well, I don't really know how horrible that's going to play.
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Speaker 3: Yeah.
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Speaker 1: And then just the fumbling of it was tragic.
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Speaker 5: That was really grim. Yeah. And isn't it funny, like no matter who you're watching, it's a public performance. And so you're kind of cringing no matter, you know, like just taking out, you know, lawyers for the defense, lawyers for the plaintiffs. you know, just taking all that out, it's a public performance. So whenever anyone stumbles or there's some kind of, you know, weird, awkward thing that happens, you're just sort of vicariously cringing for them, regardless of where you are on the, you know, the case at hand. And so, yes, in that one, I was like, oh my gosh, like how, you know, how did that happen? On the one hand, it's pretty daring to do this sort of ad hoc, I'm going to look something up, you know, and I'm going to find it and I'm going to present it in open court. But you were sort of, I found myself thinking, well, he is a therapist and the DSM is something that therapists consult routinely. So if you thought that you were going to call, you know, these definitions into question, maybe just go out to the bookstore.
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Speaker 7: And oh no no no no no reading yeah daring is a fun word that you're using there yeah yeah it seems like desperate or dumb i tragically stupid foolhardy foolhardy is a great word.
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Speaker 5: I'll leave that to y'all to use my texas you know my just my little acquired texas thing.
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Speaker 1: I should tell you i have googled a thesaurus and uh I don't know the exact definitions of any of these words. I've got a lot of words, though. Yeah.
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Speaker 5: But, yeah, I know. That I did not understand.
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Speaker 4: Who do you think possibly understood that?
00:22:23
Speaker 1: Did anyone understand that?
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Speaker 5: Probably no one.
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Speaker 1: Do you think anyone has ever even seen that before, right? Like in real court?
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Speaker 5: Yeah.
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Speaker 3: Yeah.
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Speaker 5: Yeah. Well, you know what? Probably so. I mean, in cases, you know, where, you know, you have people, I imagine it comes up, but I'm, I'm really, I'm really trying to, um, understand. Yeah. I don't, I, I did not understand what happened there. Um, That must be one of those pillow-pounding, middle-of-the-night moments for that lawyer. I just, oof.
00:23:04
Speaker 1: You'd hope. But, I mean, like, also, I get the sense from, I don't know, maybe just a vibe I'm getting off of him. I don't think he beats himself up too much for coming off poorly. That's just my sense.
00:23:17
Speaker 2: Definitely not.
00:23:18
Speaker 5: So, Texas Monthly is apparently doing a profile of Alex Jones' lawyer, Federico Andino-Renal. Um, and I will read that huge interest. His name is Federico Andino Renal.
00:23:35
Speaker 1: Oh, what's his name again? I'm sorry. I'm just kidding.
00:23:40
Speaker 5: Um, and you know, I think he's kind of, um, like from what the Texas monthly reporter was telling me, they are, and, and, um, and the lawyers for the families that, that he's kind of, um, that, like a well-known family name around here. He had been, um, uh, an assistant U S attorney. He was appointed by Eric Holder. I think, uh, Jordan, you picked up on that when I was tweeting that about his history. Um, and that it's not a matter of, you know, okay, sometimes it's, you know, this person will pay you or what have you that it's, There's some idea here that, you know, that thing that lawyers say, you know, everybody deserves a defense.
00:24:36
Speaker 4: Wow.
00:24:38
Speaker 5: That it might be more that than the payday.
00:24:41
Speaker 1: Oh, yeah?
00:24:42
Speaker 5: Oh, yeah?
00:24:44
Speaker 2: Yeah.
00:24:45
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm sure.
00:24:47
Speaker 4: I've seen his mentor sitting in court right next to him the entire time.
00:24:52
Speaker 1: I'm sure it is not about money.
00:24:53
Speaker 5: That's a curious situation.
00:24:56
Speaker 1: Oh, it's all about everybody deserves their day in court, right? Well, I mean, it's also like, to quote The Wire, it's a career fucking case. That's true. This is the kind of thing that can really... But you know what? I gotta say, recognizing that aspect of his history, it makes some of the stuff that's going on look way worse.
00:25:17
Speaker 2: Yeah.
00:25:18
Speaker 1: Because there have been repeated instances where he's shown witnesses things that he hasn't taken by... to the plaintiff's attorneys for approval, which they have pointed out a couple of times is like year one. The judge has admonished him for that.
00:25:32
Speaker 2: Yeah.
00:25:32
Speaker 5: Yeah.
00:25:33
Speaker 1: Those aren't mistakes that someone of that caliber would make. That's a, that's a choice.
00:25:37
Speaker 5: No, I think that's more strategic.
00:25:39
Speaker 1: Yeah.
00:25:39
Speaker 4: At least not after mistake number four, then it's, you've got to expect it's on purpose.
00:25:45
Speaker 1: And the, the getting into a fight with Mark Bankston and like giving him the bird in court. Like these are.
00:25:52
Speaker 5: Things that like, that felt like for me that just observing that, that felt to me like suddenly he realized this is not the place I want to be. I don't want to be within a thousand miles of where I am. I am kind of getting beaten up here in this case.
00:26:19
Speaker 1: And one way to put it.
00:26:20
Speaker 5: Yeah. And I'm, I'm really trying to keep a 30,000 foot view here.
00:26:29
Speaker 1: To me, it felt like that moment in a wrestling match when someone's losing and they go for a chair.
00:26:34
Speaker 5: Yeah.
00:26:34
Speaker 1: Trying to get themselves disqualified. As a fan of words.
00:26:37
Speaker 5: That's a much better way of putting it than anything I can come up with right now. Yes.
00:26:41
Speaker 4: As a fan of words, I'm going to have to go with my favorite adjective for him at this current time, which is eviscerated.
00:26:48
Speaker 1: He's literally had his guts ripped from his body.
00:26:51
Speaker 5: Yeah, because that moment came after, you know, the judge had admonished him yet again. And he was losing that battle over exhibits. And he was feeling frustrated because who knows, maybe in his mind, he genuinely felt like he'd been done dirty. I don't know. But it just felt like a kind of like volcanic frustration that happened right there. Um, and for, you know, if he's like this kind of well-bred guy that, you know, we're hearing, um, then it's.
00:27:28
Speaker 4: Super surprising that he would be a childish bully, a well-bred guy being a childish bully, giving people the finger whenever they embarrass him.
00:27:36
Speaker 1: That's crazy.
00:27:37
Speaker 5: That's the equivalent of picking up a chair and smashing it. You know what I mean?
00:27:42
Speaker 1: That's, that's something that, you know, you can't do. Right. It's wild. Yeah.
00:27:47
Speaker 5: But the thing that was sad was that that all that whole confrontation happened with the parents of a murdered child standing 10 feet away.
00:27:58
Speaker 2: Yeah.
00:27:58
Speaker 1: And I think strategically when the judge wasn't in the room.
00:28:03
Speaker 5: Yes.
00:28:04
Speaker 1: Like, I don't think he would have behaved that way if if Judge Gamble was in there.
00:28:09
Speaker 4: She said today that if she were available, she would have held him in contempt of court. Yeah.
00:28:14
Speaker 5: Correct. Yeah.
00:28:15
Speaker 1: Yeah.
00:28:16
Speaker 5: She said, had I seen, had I been in the room when that happened? Um, yeah.
00:28:21
Speaker 3: So she was definitely, I kind of, I kind of love as a defense for not doing anything is like, well, because I only saw accurate live video of it occurring.
00:28:31
Speaker 1: I can't do anything. Well, the ref didn't see the chair. I mean, that isn't what it is, isn't it?
00:28:37
Speaker 4: The ref turned his back and then they hit him with the chair and then he turned around and he was like, well, I can't prove it.
00:28:44
Speaker 5: It's like, if I turn around while I'm driving this car and I see what you're doing to your brother, then there will be problems. Like I know it's happening, but the minute I see it with my own eyes, you kids are in trouble.
00:28:58
Speaker 1: Yeah. It's your responsibility to do something once, uh, once it's observed.
00:29:05
Speaker 4: Not to ask you a question that might be uncomfortable, but exactly how many times have you felt like you and the judge are both moms really trying to handle unruly children?
00:29:21
Speaker 5: I think that is kind of a theme here. Yeah.
00:29:25
Speaker 1: Yeah.
00:29:26
Speaker 5: I mean, I think about that. With Alex Jones, I mean, just his behavior and the relatively rare occasions he turns up for the proceedings, it's like this kid who has stalled out in middle school. you know, I mean, even the, the whole idea that he's traveling around surrounded by bodyguards, I'm sort of thinking like a high school hallway and, you know, he's sort of like, bought lunch for the whole football team so that, Oh.
00:29:57
Speaker 4: My God, there's 10 other people. There's exactly 11 people with Alex. It is literally the star quarterback being surrounded by the rest of the team.
00:30:06
Speaker 1: Yes. It's a defensive line.
00:30:09
Speaker 5: I swear to God, I'll, I'll pay for your lunch. If you just follow me down the hall to my locker. So no one beats me up.
00:30:15
Speaker 1: I need, I need a big, a big muscle guys with guns too. So actually I wanted to talk about one thing that did happen. I've made reference of this on a previous episode, but you experienced it. So I wanted to get your take on it. It was from Tuesday of last week when Alex was there and was giving his little, he was doing the press conference out in front of the, the courthouse.
00:30:41
Speaker 2: Oh yeah.
00:30:42
Speaker 5: Yes.
00:30:43
Speaker 1: This was a situation where there was no one but security guards and you and Sebastian Murdoch, I believe. What was going on there?
00:30:56
Speaker 5: From Hearst.
00:30:57
Speaker 4: Okay.
00:30:58
Speaker 1: Okay. yeah trade one other person.
00:31:00
Speaker 4: Whoa whoa whoa dan stop.
00:31:03
Speaker 5: Being so inaccurate yeah taking.
00:31:06
Speaker 1: It out of context anyways sorry sorry liz i was i was observing this from uh safe distance yes um and what it appeared to me where.
00:31:16
Speaker 5: Were you like three blocks.
00:31:19
Speaker 1: Away I had binoculars. I was on the roof of the building across the street. I was in the book depository. No, I was maybe, right. I was maybe 20 feet away. Um, sort of just standing and, uh, vaping and, uh, giggling a little bit because the spectacle of it was, was truly bizarre. Um, And it appeared that from my assessment was he didn't know, uh, what he, he didn't know that you were you and that Sebastian was Sebastian. Yes.
00:31:54
Speaker 5: I think that's fair.
00:31:55
Speaker 1: He just thought this was media. Yes.
00:31:57
Speaker 4: Right.
00:31:58
Speaker 5: Yeah. Which is makes him happy.
00:32:01
Speaker 4: Give me an idea of how many times you have met and spoken to Alex Jones via any different.
00:32:07
Speaker 1: Liz was masked up to be true.
00:32:09
Speaker 3: True.
00:32:09
Speaker 5: True.
00:32:09
Speaker 4: Yes. Um, Well, I've never recognized anybody who was wearing a mask before. So I do understand now that it makes perfect sense.
00:32:18
Speaker 1: Alex has eye blindness.
00:32:22
Speaker 5: He's face blind. So, yeah, I mean, I spent a lot of time with him, but it was in 2018. So I think and also I think in the heat of the, you know, like publicity moment, I think he just sees, as you said, you know, I think he just sees people wearing recording him as generic media, as an audience, you know, like sort of faceless audience. And so he was talking to, he did ask John from Hearst, you know, where are you from? And John told him and he seemed to think, okay, this guy's safe to talk to. And in fact, props to John because he did ask him, so what is this medical condition that your lawyers are saying is keeping you from being here?
00:33:14
Speaker 2: I've got super cancer.
00:33:16
Speaker 5: And he was like, oh, it's just not important. John being a really good journalist was like, this says that it's important. So he was like, well, but really, you know, what is it? And he goes, ah, it's not a big thing. And he goes, no, really, what is it? And he goes, well, it's a hernia. So he has an untreated hernia and that, that is the medical condition that is, has prevented him from sitting through the trial.
00:33:51
Speaker 1: I don't even believe that.
00:33:52
Speaker 2: Yeah.
00:33:52
Speaker 1: I was going to say that doesn't even sound reasonable to me.
00:33:56
Speaker 5: I thought he was going to say something like, you know, I got this thing on my forehead. I have to get removed or, um, honestly.
00:34:04
Speaker 4: I feel like my response to that is, do you even lift bro?
00:34:08
Speaker 1: Like, I feel like that's my, okay. Yeah.
00:34:11
Speaker 5: Well, you can get a hernia just yelling probably.
00:34:14
Speaker 1: I'm sure if you're him. That is true, yeah. I would have asked if it was his fifth or sixth bout of COVID that he's dealing with.
00:34:21
Speaker 2: Right.
00:34:22
Speaker 1: He seems to keep getting that.
00:34:24
Speaker 5: Another reason to keep my mask on.
00:34:28
Speaker 1: Smart, smart. So how long did it take for him to realize that this was not unknown media to him?
00:34:38
Speaker 5: Yeah, I think when.
00:34:39
Speaker 1: So.
00:34:40
Speaker 5: Seb from HuffPost, Seb Murdoch, asked him, well, what about this cryptocurrency that you got as an anonymous donation? Because he was saying, I'm bankrupt, I'm bankrupt, I'm bankrupt. So bankrupt. Yeah. And Seb said, well, what about that eight million? And he said, well, it was actually by the time we sold it, it was only worth seven.
00:35:02
Speaker 1: And he was like, I retract my criticism. That is fair.
00:35:08
Speaker 5: Yeah, exactly. So, you know, to most people that does not equal bankrupt. And so he, you know, persisted. And then he said, I said something like, well, didn't you just pay a million dollars in sanctions? And he was like, yeah. And I said, so you're not exactly broke. And he was like, But when I pay it, it means it's gone, Walnut Brain.
00:35:34
Speaker 4: That is a man who's got the goods.
00:35:40
Speaker 1: Yes.
00:35:41
Speaker 5: I was thinking, if you really wanted to insult me, like, why wouldn't you pick like a smaller... you know, item.
00:35:49
Speaker 1: Like, listen, Brazil, not brain.
00:35:51
Speaker 4: I was going to say like, why aren't you just following me on Twitter and grabbing a couple from there?
00:35:55
Speaker 1: They are universal. I'm not like that personal. So you are, you're, you're pretty sure at that point, once Walnut Brain comes out, I think he.
00:36:06
Speaker 5: Kind of like, it was a dawning recognition that this, Oh, this is that woman. Yeah, I get it. This is that woman from the New York times. Cause then he said this, Oh no, he, he did look over while he was talking to seven. He said, you know, this is, this is a trial of the media. These are, these are fraught like that New York times person right there. And, uh, and then, And then I asked about the million dollars and he said, walnut brain. And then he went into this thing saying, this person is a monster and a fraud. And so I was sort of like, walnut brain, monster, fraud, trifecta.
00:36:41
Speaker 1: Well, here's the good news. The only people he's saying these terrible things about you two is his security. There's no one else there.
00:36:51
Speaker 5: Yeah. And, you know, at least if it's bodyguards, it's good to be walnut brain and not you know, armed threat.
00:37:00
Speaker 2: Yeah.
00:37:00
Speaker 5: Armed loner.
00:37:02
Speaker 4: It really, it really did take a while for me to remember whenever the bodyguards were sitting next to me, it took me a while for me to remember, like they can't bring guns into the courtroom. You realize that Jordan, like that's not okay. And they're not going to like push you.
00:37:18
Speaker 1: Yeah.
00:37:20
Speaker 5: In a courtroom?
00:37:21
Speaker 1: They have a license to push. For money?
00:37:23
Speaker 5: Yes.
00:37:24
Speaker 1: Okay. That's fair. I was watching all of this and I thought it was really fun because I could see a shift happening in the conversation. And then after the shift, once it became a little bit hostile. Alex put on the bumper sticker on his face and took a picture with his lawyer. And I've actually been really offended that some outlets have run with that picture on their story.
00:37:52
Speaker 5: I know it was such an obvious gambit.
00:37:55
Speaker 1: It's such a, it's a, it's a well-framed picture. I will give, I will give the photographer that, but it's like, I was there when it was taken. This is Alex with a dumb bumper sticker on his mouth that he put on for show shaking hands with his lawyer and Well, no one watched.
00:38:10
Speaker 4: Yeah.
00:38:11
Speaker 1: Like it was it's I don't know. It kind of.
00:38:13
Speaker 5: Did that in the courtroom, too. I mean, he he when he first sat down, like even before opening arguments began on the first day, he pulled that out. He put it over his face. He mugged for Federico Andino Reynal, his his lawyer.
00:38:33
Speaker 4: Dan even laughed now Dan's even laughing now when you say his real name well it's a long.
00:38:37
Speaker 5: Name yeah I just feel like it's important to be accurate so yeah so he was sort of mugging for him and then he put he didn't put it away I mean you know Raynal gave him the side eye kind of like don't do that the parents are sitting right there.
00:38:58
Speaker 1: The jury is there yeah.
00:39:00
Speaker 5: Like you know I'm not the only person that you're entertaining with this. You're definitely, you know, doing this in view of the parents.
00:39:09
Speaker 1: And this plays on your show, but this isn't that. Yeah, exactly.
00:39:14
Speaker 4: That's a good question. Can I ask you this real quick, real quick? Do you, are you surprised? Like I, I really never thought I would be surprised at what happened, but for some reason I really thought when it actually came to being in the courtroom, there's no way they would behave like the way, like they had to have prepared.
00:39:36
Speaker 1: They've had so much time, right?
00:39:39
Speaker 5: Yeah.
00:39:40
Speaker 1: Are you surprised?
00:39:42
Speaker 5: You know, yes and no. So one thing is that First of all, I get this sense from Raynal, his lawyer, that that he feels like, oh, I'm not sure what I got myself into. I think that that, you know, explosion with the, you know, flipping the bird and all that, you know, was was a sort of expression of that. I think today what happened to him with the DSM was another, you know, I think he feels like, oh, my God, I don't know what I got myself into. The idea that he was trying to kind of waffle about actually whether Jones would testify or not. when, you know, he's been saying on his, you know, on his show, like, I'm so keen to testify. And then he had to go check with them. I think these are all sort of, you know, indications that, oh boy, you know, he should have known what he was getting himself into, but I don't think he was fully prepared for that. And that's not exactly a knock on him because, is anyone ever fully prepared for things that Alex Jones does?
00:40:44
Speaker 4: I'm going to have a disagreement with you there real quick.
00:40:48
Speaker 1: I feel like any kind.
00:40:50
Speaker 4: Of preparation, any kind of preparation, even the slightest amount does not wind up with you having 10 minutes left to call your main witness as to whether or not they will take the stand.
00:41:04
Speaker 1: Fair, fair. Yeah, that was bananas. Also, there were 10 other lawyers. Right? Like all the previous lawyers. It could have been like, hey, what should I expect? What should I do?
00:41:15
Speaker 5: Yeah. Oh, you mean like the 12 previous lawyers?
00:41:18
Speaker 2: Yeah.
00:41:20
Speaker 5: You could have had a focus group of his previous lawyers.
00:41:23
Speaker 1: You could have had one phone call. We have a baker's dozen, basically.
00:41:27
Speaker 5: Yes, it would have been like a crowded Zoom of his previous lawyers where you could say, what advice do you have for me?
00:41:35
Speaker 4: But yeah, I can't do that with one of Alex's lawyers. You're going to get a tubing. That's just going to happen.
00:41:40
Speaker 3: Yeah.
00:41:41
Speaker 5: So he said, um, yeah. So he, I said, well, is Alex going to testify? And he said, it's all up to Alex. And I said, do you mean all of it? And he was like, yep, everything. It's all up to Alex. And I thought, bro, cause Alex, You know how that goes.
00:42:03
Speaker 1: It seems like a lot of stuff in his life is that. Yeah.
00:42:08
Speaker 5: Yeah.
00:42:09
Speaker 1: Seems like there's not a lot of great counsel in many areas or anybody really telling him, hey, cut it out. Yeah.
00:42:15
Speaker 5: I just, I would be so curious to know, you know, who knows, really? Like, does he go home and say, well, that went about how I expected? Or, oh, my God, I can't believe I got myself into this. You know? Yeah. I think it might be the latter.
00:42:33
Speaker 1: If you're talking about Alex, he goes home and says, hello, whiskey, my old friend.
00:42:38
Speaker 5: I'm talking about his lawyer.
00:42:40
Speaker 1: Oh, yeah. I don't know about him. Yeah.
00:42:44
Speaker 5: Yeah. So that I, you know, I don't know. But yeah, no, I agree. I there there have been a lot of moments. I think he's actually you can tell that he is a criminal prosecutor by the way he cross examines the witnesses. He's pretty aggressive. He also just kind of rolls with it when the judge kind of slaps him down on the various things like we talked about. He's pretty quick on his feet coming back from that kind of thing. But that's not to say that this is going well because, boy, it's just, even if no one said a word, just the idea of Alex Jones and a Sandy Hook family You don't have to say a word to know that this is probably going to be a tough, tough rodeo.
00:43:36
Speaker 4: You know, the ironic thing is it hadn't occurred to me until I was watching him and then put it together that he was a criminal defense lawyer and then started thinking about what, or no, a criminal prosecutor. And then started thinking about what they do. And then I started thinking, 96% of cases go to a plea bargain in that kind of court. So this is probably a guy who's really good at doing paperwork and negotiating with other lawyers as to what's an acceptable sentence.
00:44:08
Speaker 1: Doesn't end up with a lot of trialing.
00:44:10
Speaker 4: As opposed to going to an actual trial because he does not have experience in a trial.
00:44:16
Speaker 1: I just can't believe that he does.
00:44:18
Speaker 5: Yeah, I think some of the lawyers who have been watching this and kind of weighing in, you know, just completely disinterested, except for the fact that they're lawyers and this is fascinating, would disagree with you there. I think those guys actually get a lot of prosecutorial courtroom experience.
00:44:38
Speaker 1: Have I discussed how I don't care what lawyers think?
00:44:43
Speaker 5: But on the other side, in some of these personal injury cases or lawyers who are tort lawyers, in fact, the father of Josh Koskov, who represents the Sandy Hook families in Connecticut, His dad has since passed away, but I interviewed him for the book and and he said, you know, one of the funny things that has happened is that people settle so frequently that we get less and less time in the courtroom. So one of the reasons that this is catnip for the legal community is that you have two sets of lawyers who actually have a decent amount of courtroom experience. And so it is kind of fascinating to see Raynal kind of.
00:45:32
Speaker 1: Shit the bed like a fucking idiot?
00:45:35
Speaker 5: Be unprepared and.
00:45:37
Speaker 1: We have different ways of describing the same thing.
00:45:41
Speaker 5: Yes, we do. But yeah, I mean, it is... The whole thing is.
00:45:49
Speaker 5: If it weren't so tragic, I think it would be in a textbook kind of way, really fascinating.
00:45:55
Speaker 4: Yeah.
00:45:55
Speaker 1: I feel like rarely, rarely anybody drags their feet this long or, or, or, you know, pushes it this far.
00:46:02
Speaker 5: Yes, exactly. Exactly. And then that determination to kind of roll back the clock and say, this is a defamation trial. No, it's not. You lost that, you know, because you, because you had, complete contempt for the judicial system. So you lost your opportunity to make this a free speech case because you didn't wind up at trial because you would not comply with any, you know, not any, but most of the court orders and most of, you know, what you're supposed to do to prepare for that trial. So that ship has sailed. And now here you are in a damages trial and you're trying to turn it into a signal test of free speech because which I think most people would have been interested in, but that didn't happen because he stonewalled his way into a damages trial. And so he is where he is. And I think both he and his lawyer wish they were in a different place, but they're not.
00:47:04
Speaker 1: Yeah. That's the thing that I find so frustrating about a lot of the responses that I see from people who are not like necessarily paying that close of attention to But the like, you know, not recognizing that Alex absolutely would have gotten a trial on the merits if he just cooperated in any way.
00:47:23
Speaker 5: Exactly.
00:47:24
Speaker 4: Yeah.
00:47:24
Speaker 1: It's so frustrating to like hear that point be made and then people just not hear it, not listen, not understand that like the only reason that this is happening is because of. his choices.
00:47:38
Speaker 4: I really almost want like every article written about it to begin with a timeline of the number of times that Alex could have just apologized and stopped with no lawsuit whatsoever. Could have just made a public apology and stopped with no lots who was for whatsoever. And then the number of times that once the lawsuit was brought, they could have done any billion number of things to keep it from.
00:48:05
Speaker 1: Getting to where we are now.
00:48:07
Speaker 4: And instead, everybody keeps writing like the families are seeking damages.
00:48:14
Speaker 1: Well, that's that sort of template of how trials are expressed or. But I get where you're coming from.
00:48:20
Speaker 5: I have labored with that just in writing my stories, you know, trying to say all the time that, you know, what they really want is, you know, they want, they, they are, I mean, this is the altruistic thing here. They really are trying to shine a light on the fact that the lies around Sandy Hook, you know, and here I'm like, you know, talking about what I talk about in my book. And that's that, you know, it really was a foundational story of how misinformation has kind of taken hold in our discourse and, you know, because it just went from, and, and Alex was at the center of a lot of this, you know, it went from that to, to Pizzagate, to QAnon, to coronavirus myths, to the stop the steal campaign, to, um, to the January 6th insurrection. And, you know, his fingerprints are on pretty much all of those. Oh, and you could throw Charlotte's into the mix too. You know, the great replacement theory. So, you know, his fingerprints are all over those developments. And so in that sense, this is kind of, it really is a kind of fake news on trial type thing.
00:49:36
Speaker 1: It really is.
00:49:36
Speaker 3: Yeah.
00:49:37
Speaker 1: Yeah.
00:49:38
Speaker 5: And I think that's one reason why people are so invested in it. And this defense that he's trying to put forward really does concern First Amendment lawyers, this idea that there's so much garbage in the atmosphere. There are so many lies and mistruths in our national discourse right now that who's to know what's true or false? This seems like such a specious, cynical argument. But actually, the more of this stuff that is floating out there, the more lies are spread to millions of people, the more people will advance this defense. And you will see it in these Dominion voting systems cases. You'll see it in the January 6th insurrectionist cases. You'll have people who will say, Like Alex Jones said in his deposition, I had a kind of psychosis because I was lied to so many times.
00:50:38
Speaker 1: In an interview with Glenn Greenwald, he just said he was drunk. Yeah, well, yeah.
00:50:43
Speaker 5: I mean, it's a kind of insanity defense.
00:50:47
Speaker 1: A drunk insanity defense.
00:50:50
Speaker 5: Yeah, a drunk insanity defense.
00:50:52
Speaker 1: It's the Jamiroquai defense.
00:50:55
Speaker 5: I woke up the next morning and virtual insanity.
00:50:58
Speaker 1: Dan, come on. I, I, I, I didn't put the pieces together. All right.
00:51:03
Speaker 4: All right.
00:51:03
Speaker 1: I thought you were trying to pull a shaggy. It wasn't me or no, no, no. Afro man, because I got high.
00:51:10
Speaker 4: Listen, I'm, I'm just going to go with Jamiroquai.
00:51:12
Speaker 1: Fine. Fine. Um, so one, one other thing I was just thinking about was that if Alex does take the stand tomorrow, um, That is going to be wild for a number of reasons. First of all, because he'll have to have cross-examination. But then the other aspect of it is these questions that the jury has been giving. Oh, shit. Have been pretty good.
00:51:39
Speaker 5: How do you consider that? I love that practice.
00:51:44
Speaker 1: Yeah. Because I do think that there's a lot of things that probably need clarification from the jury's point of view that maybe the lawyers aren't aware of. And so I think that's really helpful. But I think it like based on the trend of the questions we've been seeing, they could ask some really messed up things to Alex. Well, maybe not messed up like, you know, bizarre or anything, but like pointed questions that he does not want to answer. And then he appears to be evasive to the jury's own questions. Like he puts himself in a really, really dangerous position there.
00:52:17
Speaker 5: Yeah, and that would be the best you could hope for, that he would evade them.
00:52:24
Speaker 1: That's the best he could do. The worst is contempt, right? I mean, like getting thrown out of court.
00:52:30
Speaker 5: Just exploding. Which is what he did in his custody trial, remember? That was where, you know, it was like his ex-wife had attorneys who really knew how to get under his skin. And he finally just exploded. I talked with Charlie Warzel about that because he was in the courtroom and he was saying, if it would have been a regular thing, a bailiff would have escorted him out.
00:52:59
Speaker 1: Wow.
00:52:59
Speaker 5: It was just, he just exploded.
00:53:02
Speaker 4: Well, it's good news for him because I'm sure Mark has no idea how to get under his skin. Mark doesn't seem like the guy who knows how to get under anybody's skin.
00:53:11
Speaker 1: From sitting in that deposition, I beg to differ. I think he's got a few of his numbers. But the good news is if a bailiff tries to get Alex out of the courtroom, Alex has a little army. That's right. That's right. Oh, shit. We're going to have a standoff. Yeah. Yeah.
00:53:27
Speaker 5: I don't know. I mean, I don't know. It just I wouldn't rule out the fact that. or the, not the fact, the possibility that, uh, Raynal, his lawyer is working on him right now, just to say, Alex, I, unless you're going to like prostrate yourself before the court and, and abjectly apologize, there's probably not a lot you can say that's going to help you.
00:54:00
Speaker 1: Yeah.
00:54:00
Speaker 5: You being you, you know.
00:54:03
Speaker 1: How could he not give that advice? Like, that would be, I would be begging him to not do it. Oh, my God.
00:54:08
Speaker 4: Dan, you, how many, I mean, you remember better than I do, but how many times did Alex, in a softball, t-ball interview where his questions were answered for him, how many times did he say, I've never.
00:54:22
Speaker 1: Lied on purpose? Like, eight? Eight. Yeah, eight and 40 minutes or something.
00:54:27
Speaker 5: Glenn Greenwald.
00:54:28
Speaker 4: Yeah.
00:54:29
Speaker 2: Yeah.
00:54:30
Speaker 3: Yeah.
00:54:31
Speaker 1: And then he said he was drunk when he was saying these things about the Sandy Hook families twice.
00:54:35
Speaker 5: Sorry, I didn't realize you were talking about the Greenwald thing. I thought you were talking about something else. Sorry.
00:54:40
Speaker 4: Oh, yeah.
00:54:40
Speaker 1: And then what was the other thing he said? He decided in advance that the election was going to be stolen. He said these really messed up things and just like. No one asked him to. He wasn't being pushed on anything.
00:54:55
Speaker 4: Liz, do you remember when the defense lawyer asked Becca, Becca, of all people, of all people, do you know what confirmation bias is?
00:55:05
Speaker 5: That was really... Yeah.
00:55:07
Speaker 4: Our next episode, Alex Jones was like, I decided before the election happened that it was stolen. Yeah.
00:55:15
Speaker 5: I mean, this is a woman who.
00:55:19
Speaker 5: Confirmation bias is like the most elementary term for her. I just, I can't even imagine that just, I'm sure that came off to her as like, do you have either, do you have any idea of what I do? You know what my area of study is or, or are you just purposely trying to belittle me?
00:55:41
Speaker 1: You know, it just probably was, was legitimately the latter or both.
00:55:46
Speaker 5: I mean, maybe both. Yeah. I don't know. I mean, that's that, you know, well-bred men with a lot of connections in a, in a city generally treat women really well.
00:55:59
Speaker 1: That's what I've noticed.
00:56:01
Speaker 5: Yeah. But again, he has to attack people like that because he cannot attack the families. So, you know, to kind of try to, you know, impeach her or belittle her or make her seem like she doesn't have the gravitas that she has, I think is just at some levels it's strategic because he really cannot lay a finger on Neil and Scarlett. It just would be too awful.
00:56:34
Speaker 1: Um, It's weird, though, because I think on some level, the the attempts at impeaching the psychiatrists and the therapist, I don't think it's really easy to see that if you're the jury and not see that as being an attack on the. the lived experience of neil and scarlet.
00:56:55
Speaker 4: Because neil and scarlet aren't here i can tell you they're therapists that they are lying to.
00:57:00
Speaker 1: You right it's calling into question the things that they have told the therapist right and that no i.
00:57:06
Speaker 5: Agree i think that that you know they because they were not i think what he was relying on is that they were be that they would be much colder and more clinical than they actually.
00:57:17
Speaker 1: Were yeah i think that's right.
00:57:18
Speaker 5: Especially the therapist I mean, that was, you know, I mean, he was, Mr. Crouch was literally starting to cry and he, you know, he was obviously very much feeling their pain. And so to come after him as if he would have been this sort of like gray clinician, that's just not who he was.
00:57:39
Speaker 4: I have seen in my patients, many different desires they have.
00:57:43
Speaker 2: Exactly.
00:57:44
Speaker 5: If he would have been someone like that, it would have been, you know, that, that would have been a great strategy, but, but because the man himself was so sympathetic and because he had worked, you know, he was a sort of integral part of the community around Newtown and he had worked with first responders and he was, he had very much lived the tragedy in the aftermath. He was not the kind of basic, you know, hired gun expert at all.
00:58:15
Speaker 4: That was one of the big things that backfired on the defense lawyer was when he was trying to almost say like, because you're part of the community, you're so biased in their favor.
00:58:28
Speaker 1: You could never be an impartial witness.
00:58:31
Speaker 4: And instead of like saying, instead of successfully getting the jury to be like, ah, this guy's biased.
00:58:38
Speaker 1: The jury was like, yeah, fucking right, man. Thank God.
00:58:43
Speaker 7: Yeah.
00:58:45
Speaker 5: Yeah, no, yeah. I mean, it would be impossible, I think, to be, well, not impossible because we've seen it, but I was going to say it would be nearly impossible to be in that community when those events happened and not feel an absolute empathy for everyone involved. I mean, it's just, that's kind of part of being a human being.
00:59:10
Speaker 1: Right.
00:59:11
Speaker 5: So again, that was, I don't know. I, I'm sort of shaking my head cause I don't really, I mean, I can understand. I think he prepared for a different person. Put it that way.
00:59:26
Speaker 1: I think, I think you're right. But also, I would suggest that if some tragedy befell Austin, Alex would not feel super bad for people. I might agree with Dan on this one. Being part of a community... Does not necessarily make one....
00:59:44
Speaker 5: No, you have to have some innate empathy. Yeah, and I don't think Alex would be in the position he's in if he weren't lacking in empathy.
00:59:53
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's probably true. Well, we should probably wrap this up before too long, but I wanted to just say, I guess, and I'm sure you're on the same page with this, and I'm sure you have some thoughts on the matter of making sure that this all stays squarely focused on on what this is actually about, as opposed to, you know, especially, especially as we go into tomorrow, where in theory, Alex is going to be there and who knows what could happen. It's the circus. It's the clown show. We're all interested in. There is the danger of that. And I, I know that you're someone who deeply appreciates what, um, this is really about and what Neil and Scarlett, uh, have gone through as well as, you know, many other parents and community and family members, um, Um, and what, what, what are your thoughts about that? And if you have any, anything you want to say on that?
01:00:54
Speaker 5: I mean, that is, I know that there was this sort of like, you know, yeah, whoa, you know, kind of sense in the, in the courtroom when it became apparent that, you know, quite likely Jones will testify. Although I, I still think there is a possibility he won't, but, um, but I think the whole thing of it is super unfortunate when it comes to the families because it's going to be super traumatic for them to, to sort of share that day and share that, that, you know, the, the, the sort of, you know, the same space with him. Um, I'm sure they'll do everything they can to, to insulate them, you know, from, you know, being in the same place while he's testifying or what have you. Um, but I couldn't agree with you more. They're, you know, the sort of, you know, this is a proceeding that is, you know, has lots of aspects. There's like the legal part, the intellectual part of it, the sort of, you know, competition of it and all of that. And I think in covering that and in thinking about it and being part of it and being immersed in it, it's easy to forget that this is about the parents of a child who was murdered in cold blood, who after saving the lives of nine of his classmates, and then his parents, you know, as we said at the top, you know, having that, that story to cling to and having just this, you know, thousands of people tear that narrative for them by saying it didn't happen. You can intellectually know how, nuts that is, but at the same time and, and how, and how ridiculous and how, and how it should be a non-factor, right. But it is, as the psychologist testified today, it is a factor, you know, no one likes to feel misapprehended even on a minor thing. And to have somebody take that, that precious, you know, narrative and, and, you know, everything that your child was away from you. I mean, that's really what this is about. And it's also about the broader thing. And that's that the families are doing this, not because they even expect that they're going to see any kind of, you know, monetary recompense from this, but really as, and I know this from talking with them for years for my book, They are trying to send a message. They really are trying to say, if this can happen to us, this could happen to your community. Not the shooting, although God knows that could happen, but this idea that misinformation and disinformation and the scrambling of everything that we hold sacred when it comes to establishing truth and relying on facts is could come for you in your community. It could happen to your family. And that's really the blaring red signal that they are trying to send to people. This is a problem. If you didn't notice it around us, maybe you noticed it around January 6th. Maybe you saw it around coronavirus. These are all the same phenomenon. And they're really trying to raise awareness here. And we should be thanking them for that because of all the people who should be spared having to, you know, have an additional burden of like standing for something in America, it should be these grieving families. And here they are, you know, saying this is important and please, you know, pay attention. I just think we should thank them for that.
01:04:47
Speaker 1: Definitely. And the, the just, you were, you were mentioning like the, re-traumatizing of being in the room when Alex might may or may not testify. Absolutely. I couldn't even believe the poise of them being there when Alex was just sitting at the defense table. That, that to me was even like, wow, I don't know if I'd be able to do that. Yeah.
01:05:08
Speaker 5: Yeah. Yeah. It's like, kind of like, um, you know, being in the presence of someone who has abused you or, um, you know, or that you've fought with in the past or that, you know, a person who means kind of trauma to you, right? So, you know, I don't know about you, but I get kind of shaky and nervous and, you know, it's really scary. And I actually do think, you know, hearing the two, the psychiatrist and their therapist say that today, they're scared. I believe that.
01:05:49
Speaker 1: You know, that is absolutely true.
01:05:52
Speaker 5: It's, it's, it's because it's heaped on top of what happened to them. Everything that they, you know, everything was torn out from under them. They lost all sense of control. And now they're, they lost their child. They lost, you know, your whole world is thrown off its access. And now, you know, they, they've lost control even over the story of how he died and, and his heroism in his last moments. I mean, that's understandable.
01:06:23
Speaker 1: Yeah. And to even add onto that, you have the added sort of, I don't know, the, the unfortunate thing on top of it, that is that Alex is now trying to control the narrative of their involvement in this suit.
01:06:38
Speaker 2: Yep.
01:06:38
Speaker 1: You know, like, so there's, there's even almost a meta thing that's going on.
01:06:42
Speaker 5: Adding to their own pain by suing him is just, which.
01:06:49
Speaker 4: Is, which did turn out ironically, whenever Mark was like, okay. If you say that they're adding to their own pain, guess who's at fault for that?
01:07:01
Speaker 1: It's you. You have just added that to the damages. We are now including that in the charge. What a funny Mark. There's no more Mark moment than being like, fine, man, let's do it. See, if I'm Reynold, then I'm pulling out a steel chair. Yeah, absolutely.
01:07:20
Speaker 4: I'm surprised he didn't get a million middle fingers after that one.
01:07:24
Speaker 5: Well, it's it's amazing because, you know, you would think like, OK, the lawsuit, that's additionally traumatizing. Actually not. What has happened is this has been four years of stonewalling and fighting and tooth and nail on the part of Alex. So that's that's the traumatic thing. It's the four years of trying to drag this out, trying to use every trick in the book, you know.
01:07:53
Speaker 2: All of that.
01:07:54
Speaker 5: Does he have a right to defend himself? Sure he does, but that's not exactly what he was doing. Well, he actually doesn't. Yeah. But that, you know, that it, it wasn't a fair fight from the beginning. So the, to then turn around after four years of extending this pain and then say, well, you'd all be healed if you didn't sue me is sort of the height of cynicism.
01:08:21
Speaker 2: Yeah.
01:08:21
Speaker 1: And we would be foolish to expect anything better. Yeah, I mean, I don't know if there's a better way to end it. That's perfect. Well, Liz, thank you so much for joining us again. It was great to see you, and I'm sure I'll see you again at the courthouse, but also great to chat.
01:08:38
Speaker 4: And thank you very much for doing your best to represent the families instead of just the trial.
01:08:45
Speaker 1: In the articles that you've been writing in the Times.
01:08:48
Speaker 4: I will stay in the shit and you get to do it for professional people who who actually, uh, can, can matter.
01:08:55
Speaker 1: So thank you.
01:08:57
Speaker 5: Thank you both. I, I I'm so happy to, to, to, well, to talk with you, but also just You know, your knowledge that you have of Alex.
01:09:08
Speaker 1: Don't be nice to us. We don't handle it well.
01:09:11
Speaker 5: I know.
01:09:11
Speaker 1: We're very nice to you. Thank you for joining us. This sound is me getting my security blanket s'mores mix.
01:09:20
Speaker 5: All right. I'm going to stop. But you know how I feel and how many others do as well.
01:09:26
Speaker 1: That's very sweet. Thank you very much.
01:09:27
Speaker 2: All right.
01:09:28
Speaker 1: Well, we will talk again soon, and Jordan will be back soon. Absolutely. But until then, we have a website. We do have a website. It's knowledgefight.com. And we're also on Twitter. We are on Twitter. It's at knowledgefight.com. We'll be back, but until then, I'm Neo. I'm Leo. I'm DZX Clark. I'm Daryl Rundus. I hope you... Ooh, I forgot. I did Daryl Rundus accidentally.
01:09:46
Speaker 5: Oh, no.
01:09:46
Speaker 1: I'm out of nicknames.
01:09:47
Speaker 6: Nice.
01:09:48
Speaker 2: Andy in Kansas, you're on the air. Thanks for holding.
01:09:52
Speaker 5: Hello, Alex. I'm a first-time caller. I'm a huge fan.
01:09:55
Speaker 4: I love your work.
01:09:56
Speaker 1: I love you.