De-Romanticizing Art And What It Gives Back

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Wow, Nathan, I feel like it's been a little bit.
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I'm excited to be back here with you.
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We've had some really fun guest artists and guest episodes and a replay of Twombly, and I am pumped to jump into this today.
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It's a I think it's gonna be a really full meaty episode.
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Meaty.
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Yeah, no, same here.
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Um, I I do feel like that's a a recurring theme of a lot of our sure standard episodes, whatever that even means at this point.
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But hey, it's been a while.
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Can't wait.
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All right, check.
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Yeah.
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Well, you know, that's what happens when you got a lot of stuff going on, you know.
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It's I wish this was the only thing we were doing outside of making work, but do you really?
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Yeah.
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Like if I was just painting and recording this, wait, that kind of is what I do.
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Yeah, no, I've been working on a lot of different things in the past few months, as you have as well, but you know what I mean.
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You know what I mean.
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I definitely do.
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Well, listen, we've um we've got some exciting quotes to talk about today.
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We're gonna kind of ponder a question.
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So our our our main theme is this idea of deromanticizing the work, and we're going to examine that through the lens of a specific question, which is what is making art give us even when it doesn't feel good?
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So we've got four main quotes that we're going to discuss, but here's kind of the uh the broad, the big picture of what of what's coming.
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So thing one, making is hard.
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That's the deromanticization part of the equation.
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In spite of it being hard, it still gives us a lot.
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So we're gonna unpack three things that it gives us.
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It slows our thinking to get to the idea.
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It reminds us that making in and of itself is thinking, and that making nourishes us in ways that we can't even comprehend.
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So with that, you told you said you were gonna whisper.
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Yeah, I was gonna ask.
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Uh so with that in mind, our first quote comes from Hugo Winder Lind.
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It's not like it feels good all the time.
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I think that's a big thing.
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It doesn't feel good all the time to paint or make art.
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Like really exhausting, especially now with the expectation on you to become a sort of multi-faceted creative individual rather than just doing one thing.
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And there's a lot in there, Nathan.
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Definitely.
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There's just a lot in there.
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You know, I've definitely been in the first half of that currently the last few months.
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Nothing just feels very good at this point.
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And it's absolutely more exhausting right now than it's been.
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And it's just, I don't know, it's just this funk I've been in of having, I think, created so much over a year's period of time, like really creating new ideas and new things and working it out that all of a sudden I'm in this point where I haven't figured it out, but it's still moving, but nothing feels good now.
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Yeah.
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And things did feel really good for years.
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So now I'm back in that moment of not forcing, but just trying to keep motivated and fighting apathy to keep creating and moving.
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I totally get what he's saying in that second part that when you have these expectations of being and doing something and being a creative individual rather than just doing one thing, like feels like there are so many other things pulling at you in those moments, too.
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It's funny because we are on different cycles of the of the you know creative process.
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I remember so when you when you told me that I had called you, we were talking whatever last week.
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Yeah.
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And I was like, man, it's flowing.
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Like things, a lot of things are finally, you know, coming together.
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And I'm just I was I'm really excited about where things are at and where they're headed, and things are just you know, they're they're coming together in a way that they haven't, you know, for a while.
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Yeah.
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And um, I mean, it would have been nice if you'd at least spent, you know, five seconds being like, hey, that's awesome, man.
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But no, no, it's because my brain was doing this.
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My brain was literally flipping you off like I'm doing in the video.
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If you're watching YouTube, you can see me.
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This is what my brain was doing.
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No, I felt it.
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I felt it over the phone.
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You went straight to like, well, not so much here.
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No, I did.
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I mean, it's that's a crazy thing, right?
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It's like you want to be excited for your friends and your colleagues and your peers in the moments when they're in the flow are successful, but when you're on the opposite end of it in the moment, it's hard.
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Yeah.
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Like it's that battle because I think V, who we had on a few episodes ago, we were chatting about a little clip of a video that she had put up on Instagram, and it was of a guy running in a marathon, and he couldn't make he just he hit the breaking point physically, and he's just collapsing on the ground.
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And runners are passing him, people are just going by, and he keeps getting up and falling up and falling up and falling, and his legs, and then two runners grab him and put him over their shoulders and start running with him.
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And his legs are just kind of dragging, and we're and I would like was just I was in tears, and I'm like, gosh, yeah, this is it.
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And she's like, We need more kindness like this in life, and that's the same thing we need to like be doing to our artist comrades in the moment, whether they're struggling or if they're successful, we still need to put that arm around him and just, you know, either help them along the road or go, I'm so happy for you.
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Because it once I got the phone with you, I was like, dude, I'm so pumped he's in a flow.
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This is great for him.
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He needs this right now.
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You're reminding me of of a principle of recovery um in in in life, but just this idea of there's certain things that we don't get to keep unless we continue to give them away.
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And this could be one of those things, right?
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Like, of course.
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I mean, look, if I'm running a marathon and I'm shooting for a time, I mean, that dude's gonna be okay.
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It's not like we're on the battlefield and you know, we gotta drag him back to safety.
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Like he's gonna live.
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I can't say for sure that I would be the person that would that would put somebody over my shoulder in that context.
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But when somebody is, you know, legitimately struggling, like the more that we can offer up, the more that we can share, you know, with the people that we are in communion with, that we're in community with in this in this game, like the more you share, the more you, the more you get, you know, the more you give, the more the more the more there is, you know, whatever.
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Insert your your cliche here, but they're true.
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Like that's something that, I mean, even just by virtue of talking about it with somebody else, and this is something, you know, back to that conversation.
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It's not as though I could just say, like, well, hey, have you have you thought about like just having everything work all of a sudden?
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Right.
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There's only so much that you can transmute to somebody else, but there is something to be said for, you know, just doing what we can to lift other people up and offer what we can, you know, in that moment, which oftentimes comes back to perspective.
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I mean, don't you find that that's something that you end up offering, whether it be to your mentees or just you know, other artists that you're in conversation and in communication with, is just a version of perspective because that's really what we need in those moments is you know, what's right in front of us feels like all there is when in actuality that's that's not the case at all.
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Yeah, I think perspective is the is the point to be made there because as I was watching that video of the marathon, I had two different perspectives in my head.
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One was, oh man, isn't that amazing that they lifted this guy up and helped him across the finish line?
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But then my other perspective, after I sat for a few seconds, was hold on, he knows exactly what he's getting into.
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He knows that he may finish or may not finish, or his body may just be giving out and he can't finish the race.
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And, you know, I was thinking, well, everybody's in the same game with him.
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They're all on the same level, they're all doing the same thing.
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And so should the other racer stop to help him and then it then hurts what they're trying to accomplish in that race, yeah, or should they just keep going?
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Because even as an artist, right, there's multiple times where it's like, hey, we can't stop and help you and pick you up and bring you along with us because maybe you, the artist, aren't putting enough work in in the studio or outside the studio or networking.
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Like, there's there are two perspectives, yeah, right.
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Because there are plenty of artists that I've been around, you know, who are just like, come on, let's go.
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We can do this, we can do this.
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And I'm like, you're not doing anything.
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Like, you're not doing yourself any favors by not spending time in the studio when you have it, by not experimenting and growing your work, by not getting yourself out there and going to openings and shows and trying to meet people and network.
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Like, I can't be the person that just brings you along and does that for you.
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That's right.
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Yeah.
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You know, so perspective is the grandiose thing here to think about in those moments.
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I want to speak to the the highlight real illusion that is social media.
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Yeah.
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I'm sure you get comments like this as well.
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It looks like you're having so much fun.
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Oh, I wish I could just be a fly on the wall.
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And in that context, it's difficult to respond in a way that's, I mean, it's just, hey, thanks, you know.
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But the real response is this isn't real.
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Yeah.
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It's real, you know, what you're seeing is it are true clips, but those are highlights.
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That's the most visually interesting seven seconds from seven hours worth of standing around, trying things that don't work, being discouraged, throwing stuff across the studio, quitting and firing myself and hiring myself back, you know, 10 minutes later.
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Yep.
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And it's, it's, I don't know about you.
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I'm curious to hear your thoughts on this, but I personally I I feel I've got some guilt around even saying that because I am so overwhelmed with gratitude to be able to for it to be hard, to be able to suffer in the studio, understanding that that's a gift that a lot of people don't have, you know.
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So it's kind of keeping one foot planted in both camps.
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Like this is all even when it sucks, even when it's terrible, it's still awesome.
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Like a bad day at the studio is still better than you know, fill in the blank.
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Yeah.
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Anything almost anything else.
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And it's fucking hard.
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Yeah.
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It's both of those things.
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It's I love it and I'm tired of it, but I need it.
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Like at the end of the day, we need eyeballs.
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We need eyeballs, period.
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As artists, we need viewers.
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We need to, if you're gonna make it.
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At least two.
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At least at least one.
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You can go to one.
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At least one other, yeah.
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You include it as two.
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But it's like, yeah, it drives me crazy, but I know it's a necessary today, yeah, too.
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And so it's really hard to not get wrapped up in so many things, especially with that highlight reel.
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You know, like the last video I put up of a work that I did, a diptych.
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I mean, it was like probably three weeks worth of work that I edited down to less than two minutes.
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And, you know, I'm cutting out Mandy coming in to the studio to say hi and me stopping working for a while.
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You know, there's all those moments in the day, you know, my my studio system cash like walking through the painting when I'm trying to glue something down, or just moments of me standing there and just looking at the stuff.
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You know, I record everything, so there's so much to cut out.
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But yeah, if I just played the raw video, you know, you'd have 50 hours of me standing and looking and trying to figure out what to do next.
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Then you'd have, you know, 10 hours of actual painting.
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Back to that idea of perspective, you know, one of the things that I tell myself when I'm conscious about what I'm telling myself, which when I'm not is almost always something negative.
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It's a whole other conversation.
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But when I'm intentional about what I'm telling myself, one of the things that I I really try to keep at the forefront of my thinking is that it doesn't have to feel good in the moment for it to work.
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And just because it feels good in the moment doesn't mean that it's going to work.
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Yeah.
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So, you know, I think there's a there's a natural association between those two things because a lot of things in life kind of line up that way, right?
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Like, hey, it felt good doing it and it turned out well.
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Um, I think that in the studio, that's where it's just, it's just different, you know, like there's a it's so it becomes a matter of really sort of unpairing or undecoupling that natural association.
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And the perspective comes in when I realize, oh, just because it doesn't feel good right now does not mean that something that happened in the studio today won't be something great or won't work, even if it's not working with this piece or in this particular context.
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Marks were made, material was processed, like things happened.
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And so there's just that perspective of like, you know, when I walk out of the studio at night to just remind myself, hey, you know, it's okay.
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It's okay.
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A lot of it just comes to being easier on ourselves, or I'll speak in first person, being easier, you know, on myself, where when you're ambitious and when you hold yourself to a high standard, that can create a dynamic where you're only going to, you know, feel good at the end very occasionally, as opposed to associating productivity or whatever good things happening with a step in the right direction, right?
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A brick was like we don't know we're building, we don't know which wall this is, but we laid we laid some bricks today.
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And we might come back tomorrow and tear them all down, but even then, now we'll know where to build the wall tomorrow.
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I I don't feel like I have a whole lot of time when I'm working where I feel really good.
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Yeah.
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Like I honestly don't.
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I think the majority of my time is confusion, really seeking out things that I'm aren't currently in my head, trying to fight with myself and what I think could work versus what I've seen work.
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I feel like my head's all over the place.
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And when I'm feeling really good, I feel like I'm creating really bad work, honestly.
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When I'm really like, oh yeah, this is really working.
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I feel like I come back the next day or the next week and look at the work and go, God, that's freaking horrible.
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Right.
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That's really bad.
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And that's that last painting that I put up I was telling you about.
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Remember, I I created a painting and then I stepped back and went, How in the world did I just time hop back to 2013?
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Sure.
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Yeah.
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I mean, I was I was mind blown and I was in the flow, man.
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I was like, yeah, this is awesome.
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This is working so good.
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And then I step back and went, I just lost 13 years in that moment of really feeling great.
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Yeah.
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And so then I painted over the whole thing and started again.
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But it's like, I was just a weird dynamic.
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The artist's mind is such a crazy weird dynamic that we're all different, we all operate in different ways.
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Yeah.
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But art is not gonna feel good all the time, everybody.
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It's just not.
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And we're and we're not gonna understand it most of the time.
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I would argue that there was some part of you that for whatever reason, reasons that will remain unknown, just needed to do that that day.
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Yeah, absolutely.
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And that some component of going back 13 years needed to sort of resurface for you to work through and have that come out another way in the 1930s.
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Oh, I know that in 1996.
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Check this.
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So that poem, or sorry, the poem that I was painting from was from the year 2000 and that I wrote in 2000, right?
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And I'm sorry, I always think the year 2000.
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So good.
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So my mind was back in that time with my buddy Mike on the beach in Santa Barbara and the poem we're out in the ocean at night watching the moonlight, talking about his sister Heidi that we lost, I think two years prior to that.
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And we were discussing that in tears and just talking, just this life moment that was just beautiful in the water in Santa Barbara with the moonlight, and it was just an incredible night.
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So I was kind of there.
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And then what I realized is I painted kind of forms of a painting that I painted of he and I in college for a class, and somehow all of that brain space, right, couldn't leave that moment.
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But what I realized later when I painted over it, if I hadn't just gone with it and worked through that, I wouldn't have gotten to where I would have gone.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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And I spent a ton of time working on those layers that ended up becoming just nothing, but it worked my mind to the place and a frenzy that I needed to be in when I started over.
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You reminded me of something else that's a really good anchor for perspective, which is to look at, I'm looking at pieces in my little podcasting studio here.
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You look back at, yeah, that's a great example right there that I'm looking at.
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You look back at finished work that ultimately did resolve itself and work as well as it needed to at that time for it to be.
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I don't know about you, but I can remember specifically like, yep, that part right there I was super frustrated about and wish it hadn't happened.
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But ultimately, it did get resolved and it did work out.
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And it ended up in case of the one I'm looking at, it ended up being the best part of the finished piece.
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Yep.
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So the point is we're not always gonna understand it.
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We're typically usually not going to understand it, and that's okay.
00:18:07.680 --> 00:18:12.319
Well, and I think a lot of that goes into what Mark Brackford is about to tell us as well.
00:18:12.799 --> 00:18:13.440
Segway.
00:18:14.000 --> 00:18:15.599
I still don't know how this is gonna hang.
00:18:15.680 --> 00:18:16.559
I still don't even know.
00:18:16.720 --> 00:18:21.839
To me, I like it with the tax in it, but well, maybe bright color tax.
00:18:22.319 --> 00:18:24.079
I'm not sure how it's gonna hang.
00:18:24.319 --> 00:18:26.160
I just thought to put it in the box.
00:18:26.720 --> 00:18:29.039
Send it down there, stack it up and put it in the box.
00:18:29.279 --> 00:18:34.160
I noticed that my art practice is very detailed labor intensive.
00:18:34.240 --> 00:18:38.799
And I think that that's a way of slowing myself down so that I can hear myself think.
00:18:38.960 --> 00:18:48.799
So I can hear the voice that's a little bit more quiet, so I can hear maybe the decision that might come through that's a little less large.
00:18:50.000 --> 00:18:57.519
That quieter voice has sometimes a more interesting idea if I can get to it.
00:18:59.920 --> 00:19:06.559
I've got like tears forming in my eyes right now because when I hear Mark Bradford talk about art, I just go to a different place.
00:19:06.720 --> 00:19:07.519
I honestly do.
00:19:07.599 --> 00:19:12.079
He just takes me to a place that is so different and so beautiful and so wonderful.
00:19:12.160 --> 00:19:18.079
And, you know, having seen so much of his work in person, you know, just mean everything he said there, right?
00:19:18.160 --> 00:19:28.319
That's kind of what I was talking about in my own way, with not feeling good about the work, just kind of spending a lot of time listening and working through.
00:19:28.400 --> 00:19:37.200
And it's like just that sentence, the quieter voice has sometimes the more interesting idea if I can get to it.
00:19:39.680 --> 00:19:40.640
Damn.
00:19:41.680 --> 00:19:43.119
Preach, Mark.
00:19:44.160 --> 00:19:44.880
I don't know.
00:19:44.960 --> 00:19:48.160
I mean, he's one of he's one of my he's on my Mount Rushmore.
00:19:48.319 --> 00:19:49.359
Yeah, same.
00:19:49.599 --> 00:19:57.839
We will, he's on, he's on an ever-growing list of just icons where we're like, we're gonna do a Bradford episode, but yeah, we gotta do it right.
00:19:58.079 --> 00:19:58.799
Yes, yeah.
00:19:59.279 --> 00:20:11.839
So this is this is not that for today's purposes, but I mean the thing that struck me that the opening line is what really struck me, and it's not what he said, it's how he says it.
00:20:12.559 --> 00:20:13.920
I still don't know how this is gonna hang.
00:20:14.480 --> 00:20:34.319
I still know because I have these logistical frustrations and ponderings all the time, especially with the materials that I'm working with that aren't meant for art, that have never been combined, you know, together for any other reason.
00:20:34.480 --> 00:20:38.799
There it does, it just creates a lot of logistical challenges of like, okay, cool.
00:20:38.960 --> 00:20:46.640
I've got a piece that I like as it exists right now with part of it screwed to the wall and part of it like, how is this going to exist?
00:20:46.960 --> 00:20:48.640
How's this gonna be transported?
00:20:48.880 --> 00:20:50.480
How is this going to exist in space?
00:20:50.640 --> 00:20:52.000
How's it going to be installed?
00:20:52.079 --> 00:21:01.279
You know, all of these things because I ask that question all the time, but the way that I ask it is typically very different.
00:21:01.440 --> 00:21:05.519
It's much more like, I still know how this is gonna hang, what the hell am I doing?
00:21:05.759 --> 00:21:08.480
You know, it's it's whereas this mark's just like I just don't even know.
00:21:08.559 --> 00:21:09.279
Yeah, it's okay.
00:21:09.519 --> 00:21:09.839
We'll see.
00:21:09.920 --> 00:21:11.359
Yeah, I'll just ship it in a box.
00:21:11.440 --> 00:21:13.680
I'm just gonna stack them all and ship it and go, here you go.
00:21:13.759 --> 00:21:15.359
Here's a here's a little thing attacks.
00:21:15.440 --> 00:21:17.680
If you want to use those, let's use the bright colored ones.
00:21:17.920 --> 00:21:18.079
Right.
00:21:18.160 --> 00:21:19.839
Let them know that's what here here it is.
00:21:19.920 --> 00:21:20.720
Let them figure it out.
00:21:20.799 --> 00:21:21.839
It's numbered, it's lettered.
00:21:21.920 --> 00:21:23.279
You know where here's where everything goes.
00:21:23.839 --> 00:21:28.480
You and I talk about this a lot, you know, when we're when we're on the phone and and talking about our work and things.
00:21:28.559 --> 00:21:34.880
And it's you know, the general thing that I'm usually telling you is just make it and figure it out later.
00:21:35.920 --> 00:21:40.319
Get those ideas out, just make the damn thing, and we'll figure everything out later.
00:21:40.559 --> 00:21:44.559
Shipping, logistics, hanging, sitting, like all that stuff.
00:21:44.640 --> 00:21:50.079
Like, and I'm telling artists all the time, because we can get held back by the logistics.
00:21:50.319 --> 00:21:51.519
Yeah, we can.
00:21:51.839 --> 00:21:55.119
Trust me, some of you artists understand that, some you're not there yet.
00:21:55.200 --> 00:21:59.759
But there will be a point in time when you're experimenting and working on things and you're you start thinking about.
00:22:00.160 --> 00:22:01.039
About logistics.
00:22:01.200 --> 00:22:02.160
How can it ship?
00:22:02.319 --> 00:22:03.839
How will it be able to be put together?
00:22:04.000 --> 00:22:06.400
No, just make it figure that out later.
00:22:06.559 --> 00:22:14.640
Then you get on the phone with your 10 art friends and you guys have a pow wow and you figure out how in the world are we going to ship this or hang it or put it up.
00:22:14.799 --> 00:22:20.319
I mean, that's why I love seeing so many different artists work when I go into museums.
00:22:21.039 --> 00:22:21.200
Right.
00:22:21.279 --> 00:22:30.240
And I'm walking around and I'm looking at this artist, I'm looking at that artist, and I'm going, okay, just hang it from the ceiling by a single hook and just let it drape on the floor.
00:22:30.400 --> 00:22:30.799
Yeah.
00:22:31.119 --> 00:22:31.599
Boom.
00:22:31.759 --> 00:22:33.359
Do whatever you want to do.
00:22:33.839 --> 00:22:37.119
And it's okay if you can see the seams.
00:22:37.279 --> 00:22:39.119
It's okay if you can see the screws.
00:22:39.200 --> 00:22:48.559
Or I mean, you know, that's where, that's where I have to actively short circuit my perfectionism is wanting it to look, you know, and just being okay with like, hey, show your work.
00:22:48.640 --> 00:22:50.880
Like, yep, this is how it, this is how this is held together.
00:22:50.960 --> 00:22:51.759
This is how this exists.
00:22:51.839 --> 00:22:56.559
This is, you know, this is not one big, you know, eight by fourteen foot, you know, piece.
00:22:56.640 --> 00:22:57.200
And that's okay.
00:22:57.279 --> 00:23:01.839
I mean, you look at Bradford's work, you know, almost all of it, you can see those things.
00:23:01.920 --> 00:23:05.680
You can see where, you know, how it's it was certainly shipped modular.
00:23:05.759 --> 00:23:13.920
You know, this 20 by you know, 50 foot piece didn't, it's not just one one that didn't come in a 20 by you know 50 foot crate.
00:23:14.079 --> 00:23:23.200
And I think uh it's funny that that idea, and that's one of the things that you definitely helped me with when I was in one of your mentees, and that idea served me very well for a long time.
00:23:23.279 --> 00:23:35.920
I'm having to reconsider that at this at this point as I'm starting to make work that I know like I'm preparing uh, you know, for some work that's gonna be going to Spain this summer and just thinking about all right, some of these things are gonna hang outside.
00:23:36.160 --> 00:23:49.440
There are some things that can be resolved at the end, and some things that I actually legitimately have to think through because I can't, you know, uh deassemble to completely disassemble it in order anyway.
00:23:49.599 --> 00:23:51.119
Yeah, chicken or chicken or egg.
00:23:51.200 --> 00:23:52.799
You know, at some point we're gonna have to figure this out.
00:23:52.880 --> 00:23:53.839
Is it now or is it later?
00:23:53.920 --> 00:23:54.960
Is really the question.
00:23:55.359 --> 00:24:00.400
But you have artists like Sam Gilliam, right, who give you permission to hang it every which way possible.
00:24:00.559 --> 00:24:00.799
Right?
00:24:00.960 --> 00:24:14.480
His piece goes into a museum and it hangs potentially the way it was supposed to, but it's made to his drape paintings, they're made to be hung in multiple angles, different sides, different corners, and it changes every single time.
00:24:14.960 --> 00:24:15.119
Right.
00:24:15.200 --> 00:24:17.039
And then Glen Suey, right?
00:24:17.200 --> 00:24:22.480
Another great example of somebody whose work on a wall can take on so many different forms.
00:24:22.640 --> 00:24:29.680
And he even at times is like telling the museum, right, installers, like, what do you think?
00:24:29.920 --> 00:24:30.559
Yeah.
00:24:30.960 --> 00:24:36.720
It's like, yeah, you know, and then he's letting them kind of decide this fold here and this fold here, and this hangs here, you know.
00:24:36.799 --> 00:24:37.519
And I don't know.
00:24:37.599 --> 00:24:38.640
I love that about work.
00:24:38.799 --> 00:24:40.160
I love when art can do that.
00:24:40.400 --> 00:24:45.119
Well, and that's a good, it's hilarious that you said that because I was literally just thinking about El Anatui.
00:24:45.440 --> 00:24:49.039
And, you know, that's that's confidence in the work, too.
00:24:49.200 --> 00:24:57.359
I mean, that's how confident do you have to be in the work that you're like, yeah, whichever way this hangs, it's going to do what I intended for it to do.
00:24:57.440 --> 00:25:00.480
It's going to speak, maybe in a way that was better than I intended.
00:25:00.559 --> 00:25:02.240
You know, that's beautiful.
00:25:02.559 --> 00:25:03.759
I didn't really add much there.
00:25:03.839 --> 00:25:05.039
You can cut that part out if you want.
00:25:05.200 --> 00:25:09.200
Okay, so I got something else on uh on Mark here.
00:25:10.960 --> 00:25:14.720
So Ty talks about, I'm going to reread this part of this quote.
00:25:14.960 --> 00:25:18.960
I noticed that my art practice is very detailed, labor-intensive.
00:25:19.039 --> 00:25:24.240
And I think that that's a way of slowing myself down so I can hear myself think.
00:25:25.599 --> 00:25:25.839
Yes.
00:25:26.160 --> 00:25:30.720
I pondered on this for a long time as we were preparing for, uh as I was preparing for for today's episode.
00:25:30.880 --> 00:25:45.759
So we talk a lot about sitting and listening, which is extremely necessary and valuable, but movement is also an excellent way to quiet the mind, especially when it's repetitive labor, which I do a lot of.
00:25:45.920 --> 00:25:51.440
You know, it it's it's a way of giving the monkey mind a task to focus on.
00:25:51.680 --> 00:25:53.359
All right, hey, just do this, right?
00:25:53.519 --> 00:25:56.880
The monkey mind's got to, I'm doing something, I gotta figure out what to do with my mind.
00:25:56.960 --> 00:25:57.359
What do I do?
00:25:57.440 --> 00:25:58.400
What do I do with my hands?
00:25:58.480 --> 00:26:00.240
I've got to figure out something to do.
00:26:00.640 --> 00:26:02.400
Let's, all right, let's get that out of the way.
00:26:02.640 --> 00:26:07.200
So when I sit, I listen and I write.
00:26:07.519 --> 00:26:12.799
When I'm moving, I'm listening and I'm talking back out loud.
00:26:13.119 --> 00:26:15.039
This is something I've fully embraced.
00:26:15.119 --> 00:26:18.079
I realize, so I I've got a new studio assistant who's been helping me out.
00:26:18.240 --> 00:26:19.359
He's awesome.
00:26:19.599 --> 00:26:21.119
And um, just part-time.
00:26:21.200 --> 00:26:22.880
Yeah, guys, it's like eight hours a week.
00:26:22.960 --> 00:26:25.759
Okay, I don't have a full-time studio assistant, just to be clear.
00:26:26.000 --> 00:26:35.359
But he's awesome and he's he's been a great sounding board, and you know, he's kind of gotten a good sense of my flow and sort of you know way of being.
00:26:35.599 --> 00:26:39.519
And I just I just told him, like, listen, you know, because I've had other people help me at different times in the past.
00:26:39.599 --> 00:26:50.240
And he's like, Yeah, I've just kind of realized that the first like 30 minutes of every day is gonna be us walking around and you talking to get to a point where you know what you want for us to do and what you want for me to do.
00:26:50.400 --> 00:26:55.200
And I kind of just need a spotter, you know, like just somebody to be there, you know, while I'm externally processing.
00:26:55.279 --> 00:26:58.160
They realize like, I don't, nobody else has to be in the room.
00:26:58.240 --> 00:27:00.480
Like it's totally okay just to just to talk to myself.
00:27:00.559 --> 00:27:01.759
And so I do a lot of that.
00:27:01.920 --> 00:27:12.240
Obviously, I can't be writing and capturing ideas in my lab notes or in my journal when I'm physically doing other things, but I can absolutely work through these ideas.
00:27:12.400 --> 00:27:19.519
And there's something about, you know, if you're an external processor like I am, and I think the way that you are as well, probably we both are.
00:27:19.599 --> 00:27:22.240
That's why this whole podcasting thing, you know, works.
00:27:22.400 --> 00:27:28.400
But it's it's something that it's it's very valuable, and you don't need to have somebody else, you know, there.
00:27:28.559 --> 00:27:33.759
So oftentimes I just need to hear myself say it out loud, and it's like, oh, okay.
00:27:34.000 --> 00:27:42.640
And then I can listen to the material that I'm working on, I can listen to what I'm doing and be in audible conversation with the work in real time.
00:27:42.799 --> 00:27:43.279
Yeah.
00:27:43.519 --> 00:28:00.539
Well, I think time stops when you're busy working on your work.
00:28:00.699 --> 00:28:02.779
Like it's almost as if, right?
00:28:04.219 --> 00:28:05.500
Let me rewind a little bit.
00:28:05.740 --> 00:28:15.500
When you're sitting and listening and just looking at work, you're completely kind of focused on that moment, and your brain is completely focused on what you're looking at.
00:28:15.740 --> 00:28:20.779
When you're busy working, your brain moves into a different function.
00:28:20.859 --> 00:28:20.939
Yeah.
00:28:21.099 --> 00:28:22.699
It's like driving, right?
00:28:22.859 --> 00:28:32.299
Those times when you're, I forget what the name of it is for um, it's a psychological term for when your brain, when something so important is happening, your brain protects you.
00:28:32.459 --> 00:28:37.819
So, like you drive four miles, you know, four hours somewhere, you don't even realize you drove four hours.
00:28:37.979 --> 00:28:39.419
Like you're kind of just gone in your head.
00:28:39.579 --> 00:28:42.219
Next thing you know, you're there and you're like, I don't remember anything.
00:28:42.539 --> 00:28:51.339
But your brain was so knows how important it is to keep you alive in that moment that it's focusing, even though you're the same thing happens when you're making art.
00:28:51.500 --> 00:28:57.659
You just kind of disappear into something that in your head is so important that your brain is firing all over the place.
00:28:57.819 --> 00:29:08.139
And so for me, it's like when I'm really working, especially like when I'm really focused sewing or working with fibers in this moment where I'm just completely in on this.
00:29:08.219 --> 00:29:14.619
And yeah, that's like so many things come to me in a way that's completely different than when I'm just sitting and listening.
00:29:14.779 --> 00:29:24.139
And I think that's what's that's what Mark is saying in that moment of the way of slowing himself down so he can see himself, he can hear himself think.
00:29:26.139 --> 00:29:33.339
Well, and that's where that the quieter voice, you know, when he says the quieter voice has sometimes the more interesting idea if I can get to it.
00:29:33.419 --> 00:29:42.859
And the only way the quieter voice has an opportunity to break through is if our default louder voice is out of the way.
00:29:43.179 --> 00:29:43.979
I think so.
00:29:44.219 --> 00:29:44.539
Yeah.
00:29:44.859 --> 00:29:49.659
Well, and that's you know, Rick Rubin talks about that a lot, talks about those moments a lot, right?
00:29:49.740 --> 00:29:54.779
Like you're even when you're busy, you're keeping your mind open to ideas and to new things.
00:29:54.939 --> 00:29:59.579
And you need to be finding those ways to get to those ideas.
00:29:59.740 --> 00:30:01.819
And he says, if I can get to it.
00:30:02.059 --> 00:30:02.459
Yeah.
00:30:02.699 --> 00:30:10.139
You know, and I think that's if we can, well, yeah, let's figure out those ways that work for us so that we can get to those ideas.
00:30:10.619 --> 00:30:17.979
Well, and that's where having uh a studio practice that involves or creative practice, whatever that looks like, you know, for you, let's turn this into a tactical tip.
00:30:18.139 --> 00:30:19.419
But tactical tip.
00:30:19.579 --> 00:30:20.779
Do, too, too.
00:30:21.179 --> 00:30:23.419
It's uh we need a sounder for that.
00:30:23.579 --> 00:30:38.219
But it's to have a some version of a routine where I mean there there are there are some days where you leave off and you just ran out of time or energy or whatever, and you know exactly where you're gonna pick up.
00:30:38.539 --> 00:30:45.740
But there's way more days for me anyway, where it's like, all right, let's let's survey the chaos of the day before.
00:30:45.979 --> 00:30:52.779
Let's see what we got, let's look at at all of our babies with fresh eyes and see, see what's what.
00:30:53.339 --> 00:31:08.859
But to the idea of routine, you know, moving things around, cleaning up the space, you know, setting things in different light, you know, just getting your hands on things, that in and of itself sort of you know primes the pump for the work that's gonna follow, I think.
00:31:09.099 --> 00:31:09.740
Yeah.
00:31:11.019 --> 00:31:15.019
Some people think I'm working, but uh they don't realize I'm thinking.
00:31:15.819 --> 00:31:17.899
You lose a lot of time thinking.
00:31:18.219 --> 00:31:21.579
Might as well be producing or making something while you're thinking.
00:31:22.219 --> 00:31:23.740
What do you mean by thinking?
00:31:24.379 --> 00:31:26.699
Well uh what is happening?
00:31:26.939 --> 00:31:29.579
What am I concerned about?
00:31:30.139 --> 00:31:35.659
What would I like to accomplish or do today or tomorrow?
00:31:35.979 --> 00:31:37.979
And how am I gonna do it?
00:31:38.379 --> 00:31:45.500
And in order to do it, what do I have to exclude or avoid?
00:31:46.139 --> 00:32:06.779
Um because Paris is a very noisy, busy, confusing, chaotic city, and I live right in the middle of it, and I'd like to still have an advantage of being in a nice cultural and beautiful and interesting place, but also to keep my peace of mind and quiet too.
00:32:07.019 --> 00:32:17.500
So I have to find a way to do that, and I can sit still and quietly and think and practically solve all these problems while I'm having a coffee.
00:32:18.939 --> 00:32:21.419
To be alive is to sort of discover.
00:32:23.899 --> 00:32:25.339
So hang in there.
00:32:26.619 --> 00:32:30.619
Because you never know what the next discovery might be.
00:32:31.019 --> 00:32:32.139
Hang in there.
00:32:33.819 --> 00:32:35.819
Did you feel like she was talking to you?
00:32:36.459 --> 00:32:37.099
Yes.
00:32:37.579 --> 00:32:38.219
Right?
00:32:38.779 --> 00:32:39.819
Isn't that to me?
00:32:39.899 --> 00:32:50.619
That's like such a special quality when you can watch somebody in an interview, especially for me with artists, and I feel like they're literally talking to me.
00:32:50.779 --> 00:32:57.740
And I feel like she was very purposeful in that conversation to kind of reach artists out there through it.
00:32:58.779 --> 00:33:00.299
I just looked at I just looked it up.
00:33:00.379 --> 00:33:01.740
She's 91 today.
00:33:02.059 --> 00:33:02.539
Oh wow.
00:33:02.859 --> 00:33:06.539
This this isn't her birthday, but as of as of today, she so she was born in 1934.
00:33:07.099 --> 00:33:12.459
I don't know how old that video is, but she was certainly in her, you know, mid-80s when she said that.
00:33:12.619 --> 00:33:24.379
My my point in sharing that is that when artists who have been making work for you know six, seven decades share wisdom, that's real.
00:33:24.939 --> 00:33:25.659
That's real wisdom.
00:33:25.979 --> 00:33:27.899
Absolutely who we need to be listening to.
00:33:28.059 --> 00:33:32.299
So when she says, hang in there, you're like, thanks, thanks, art grandma.
00:33:33.019 --> 00:33:35.099
Seriously, and think of this line, Nathan.
00:33:36.059 --> 00:33:38.459
To be alive is to sort of discover.
00:33:39.259 --> 00:33:39.899
Yeah.
00:33:40.379 --> 00:33:43.419
Like she's offering that to every artist out there.
00:33:43.579 --> 00:33:50.459
She's saying, Hey, you need to realize to be alive is to discover.
00:33:50.539 --> 00:33:51.819
So hang in there.
00:33:52.459 --> 00:33:55.339
You don't know what that next discovery might be.
00:33:55.659 --> 00:33:57.899
Keep going, artist.
00:33:58.379 --> 00:34:00.619
Keep going, hang in there.
00:34:00.699 --> 00:34:03.979
You have a lot of time or a very short time.
00:34:04.699 --> 00:34:05.899
You know, like we don't know.
00:34:05.979 --> 00:34:21.980
I was sitting in a coffee shop today and I was writing some poetry while my studio assistant was getting groomed at the groomer, and I was writing some poems on death and just thinking about like time and how much we either don't have or how much we do have.
00:34:22.140 --> 00:34:22.380
Yeah.
00:34:22.620 --> 00:34:28.539
You know, and so hearing Sheila say this, and I was thinking about these quotes that we were going over today as well, because I've been in my head.
00:34:28.700 --> 00:34:32.140
But just thinking of that, like to be alive is a discovery.
00:34:32.220 --> 00:34:35.900
We should be living in a state of discovery every day that we're walking and breathing.
00:34:36.059 --> 00:34:50.220
And I think all the things that we've kind of gone through today so far is kind of alluding to those, like busy or quiet, listening or working, like all of it should be wrapped up in discovery somehow.
00:34:51.820 --> 00:34:59.260
I'm trying not to laugh because I was reading our reviews on uh Spotify and Apple the other day for the podcast, and somebody actually put a review up.
00:34:59.420 --> 00:35:04.700
I think it was like a three out of five stars that we were getting too emotional and whiny.
00:35:04.940 --> 00:35:07.660
And here I am today being very emotional and whiny.
00:35:08.460 --> 00:35:09.660
Are you gonna leave this in?
00:35:09.900 --> 00:35:11.500
Yeah, I'm leaving it in.
00:35:12.380 --> 00:35:19.820
You brought this up before, and I I remember saying something to the effect of I mean, show me the work that is produced from unfeeling.
00:35:20.140 --> 00:35:20.780
Yeah.
00:35:21.180 --> 00:35:22.460
We could probably find some.
00:35:22.620 --> 00:35:24.780
We don't need to list examples for today's purpose.
00:35:25.019 --> 00:35:25.980
Right, I know.
00:35:27.099 --> 00:35:30.300
Just like I I hey, I'm a I'm an emotional person.
00:35:30.460 --> 00:35:31.740
I wear my heart on my sleeve.
00:35:31.820 --> 00:35:35.579
All of my mentees can attest to that or artists around me or my friends.
00:35:35.660 --> 00:35:36.780
Like, I'm just emotional.
00:35:37.260 --> 00:35:38.860
Like I love life.
00:35:40.780 --> 00:36:01.099
And I want to live it to the fullest in the heartbreak and in the joy and in the loss and in like everything that's wrapped up in life, whether it's painful or horrible or beautiful, like I'm still alive in it, and I'm discovering something amidst all of that to bring it back to Sheila.
00:36:01.660 --> 00:36:05.260
All of those moments are giving giving me discovery.
00:36:07.340 --> 00:36:11.980
And that is beautifully awful.
00:36:12.220 --> 00:36:14.220
It's that tension, right?
00:36:14.539 --> 00:36:17.019
There's just a lot of tension wrapped up in that.
00:36:17.500 --> 00:36:20.940
Was it Thoreau who talked about sucking the marrow out of life?
00:36:21.980 --> 00:36:23.660
Actually, no, it is because I just looked it up.
00:36:23.740 --> 00:36:27.340
I just brought it up in a way that made it seem like I actually had that had access to that in my brain.
00:36:27.660 --> 00:36:29.900
Um Walden.
00:36:29.980 --> 00:36:30.140
Yeah.
00:36:30.380 --> 00:36:31.019
Yeah, yeah.
00:36:31.260 --> 00:36:34.300
So, but it's the point is it's everything.
00:36:34.460 --> 00:36:35.820
I do love bone marrow.
00:36:35.900 --> 00:36:39.820
Typically don't consume it that way exactly, but it's all of it.
00:36:39.980 --> 00:36:40.220
Right.
00:36:40.380 --> 00:36:42.220
It's everything that's in there.
00:36:42.460 --> 00:36:48.380
It's not, it's not just the parts that we like, it's not just back to life.
00:36:49.099 --> 00:36:52.140
If we're gonna experience it, we gotta be, we gotta experience all of it.
00:36:52.300 --> 00:36:57.579
If we're gonna enjoy the highs, we gotta roll through the lows and discover all of the above.
00:36:57.820 --> 00:37:07.099
The part of this quote that I wanted to spend some more time on to it's so funny because the shout out to the interviewer because when when he asks the question, what do you mean by thinking?
00:37:07.820 --> 00:37:10.380
At first listen, my first thought was like, What a dumb question.
00:37:10.539 --> 00:37:11.340
But what followed?
00:37:11.500 --> 00:37:15.900
So great intuitive question because what followed was was incredible.
00:37:16.380 --> 00:37:18.140
You know, she lets off, well, what's happening?
00:37:18.220 --> 00:37:19.420
What am I concerned about?
00:37:19.660 --> 00:37:21.420
And the part that I want to zero in on.
00:37:21.579 --> 00:37:25.500
And in order to do it, what do I have to exclude or avoid?
00:37:26.539 --> 00:37:27.500
That's huge.
00:37:27.660 --> 00:37:35.740
I mean, we've talked about this before because it's this is a recurring theme, but like, you know, just asking that question, what's in my way?
00:37:35.900 --> 00:37:39.260
And am I really willing to, you know, remove it?
00:37:39.420 --> 00:37:49.420
So if we're really about the art life, as as David Lynch calls it, we have to audit our time, our resources, our energy, all of it.
00:37:49.660 --> 00:38:01.740
And we have to be willing to take a scalpel to remove anything that doesn't belong, that isn't in alignment with our values and what we want to do with however much time we have here.
00:38:02.780 --> 00:38:05.099
I was talking to a friend of mine who I'm not going to name.
00:38:05.180 --> 00:38:09.019
I don't think he listens to the podcast, but just in case, I don't want to throw him under the bus.
00:38:09.260 --> 00:38:10.700
But this was last week.
00:38:10.780 --> 00:38:19.019
And this is a friend of mine who has he's a man child, he's in his early 40s, he's he's got a lot of flexibility with his with his time.
00:38:19.260 --> 00:38:24.059
And he, like me, is very prone to picking up new hobbies.
00:38:24.300 --> 00:38:30.940
So he went on a date and went bowling and bowling like a 150 or something.
00:38:31.099 --> 00:38:34.300
And he texts me, he's like, I love bowling.
00:38:35.019 --> 00:38:36.380
Cut to the next day.
00:38:36.460 --> 00:38:43.019
He's he texts me a picture of his custom bowling ball with his initials monogrammed on it, you know what I mean?
00:38:45.420 --> 00:38:53.500
No, but I did reply with a uh um Big Lobowski meme with uh, you know, Jesus.
00:38:54.940 --> 00:38:55.500
So good.
00:38:56.059 --> 00:38:59.500
John Tuturo in the room is yeah, unmatched.
00:38:59.740 --> 00:39:20.140
But I just so this is somebody who he's got a lot of creative aspirations, and he's very talented, but he hasn't to this point been able to execute consistently on any one of the four or five things that he could have really been amazing at and still could?
00:39:20.300 --> 00:39:23.420
I'm not gonna say that that ship has sailed completely.
00:39:23.980 --> 00:39:44.940
But I just asked him, we're close, and I said, imagine how that short film you're working on, imagine how the soundtrack that you've been working, your the projects, the the unfinished projects that you have in the works right now, like is becoming a good bowler going to get you closer to what you aspire to be?
00:39:45.019 --> 00:39:49.740
So the question really comes down to you know, do my actions match my goals?
00:39:49.900 --> 00:39:50.539
Yeah.
00:39:51.260 --> 00:39:53.579
And if not, it's okay.
00:39:53.900 --> 00:39:57.260
But one of those two things needs to be adjusted.
00:39:58.220 --> 00:40:07.180
Either we need to increase our actions to be consistent with what achieving our goals is going to require.
00:40:07.420 --> 00:40:08.059
Yeah.
00:40:08.700 --> 00:40:11.260
Or we need to just lower the goal.
00:40:11.820 --> 00:40:17.099
Because when those things aren't in alignment, that's a great recipe for a lot of regret.
00:40:18.140 --> 00:40:28.059
When they are in alignment, that's a great recipe for fulfillment and peace of mind and being okay with whatever we are saying yes and no to.
00:40:28.380 --> 00:40:34.380
Every time we say yes to one thing in this moment, you and I are saying yes to recording this podcast.
00:40:34.620 --> 00:40:41.019
That means we are, by extension, saying no to everything else that we could be doing with our time in this moment.
00:40:41.180 --> 00:40:41.340
Yeah.
00:40:41.579 --> 00:40:42.460
And that's a lot of things.
00:40:43.180 --> 00:40:47.980
A lot of things, an infinite number of things that any one of us could be doing at any moment in time.
00:40:48.140 --> 00:40:55.980
So whatever we're choosing to invest our energy into, it better be consistent with our our overreaching goals.
00:40:56.059 --> 00:41:04.220
And I realize I'm using sort of some, you know, whatever, achievement-driven vernacular here, but replace that with whatever's true for you, dear listener.
00:41:04.380 --> 00:41:07.740
But those two things need to really need they need to be in alignment.
00:41:07.820 --> 00:41:08.860
They need to be in alignment.
00:41:08.940 --> 00:41:23.579
And so if we are serious about making authentic work that we are putting into the world, that we want to be seen, that we want to have, you know, an impact of some kind, again, fill in the blank with whatever's true for you.
00:41:23.820 --> 00:41:38.460
But if that's real, if that's a real desire, if that's a real, you know, compulsion that we have to do, then it means, to Sheila's point, that we're going to have to exclude and avoid a lot of other things.
00:41:38.780 --> 00:41:44.380
And a lot of the things that need to be excluded or avoided aren't necessarily, they're not inherently bad things.
00:41:44.620 --> 00:41:45.820
There's nothing wrong with bowling.
00:41:46.059 --> 00:41:47.260
Bowling's cool, I guess.
00:41:47.500 --> 00:41:56.940
But how much time do you want to put into the things that aren't necessities that aren't in full alignment with our true calling is the question that we have to ask.
00:41:57.260 --> 00:42:10.539
Yeah, I've been I've been thinking through that a lot in the last probably month and a half as I haven't been making much art as much as I want to, just kind of being in that funk of figuring out where I want to go next with things.
00:42:10.860 --> 00:42:24.300
But I could either sit around in that time and just be frustrated with myself and upset and not do anything, or I can be proactive in things that keep my thinking focused on what I'm doing.
00:42:24.539 --> 00:42:35.900
So I've literally been pitching literary agents for my novel that I wrote a few years back and rewriting my query letter and rewriting my synopsis and just doing all kinds of research and things.
00:42:36.220 --> 00:42:40.780
But in that whole moment, I'm still thinking about the work.
00:42:40.860 --> 00:42:48.300
I'm in my studio, I'm looking at work, I'm thinking through, I'm making notes, I'm writing down ideas and things in the process of the other thing.
00:42:48.460 --> 00:42:48.700
Right.
00:42:48.780 --> 00:42:56.220
And then I've also been, as we've talked about, you and I personally, I've been building an app from all the curriculum from my mentorship program.
00:42:56.700 --> 00:43:21.740
But because I've been constantly in that and getting stories from artists who've been in my program and then thinking about stories while I'm building in and writing things for my curriculum, it's still keeping me focused on those things because it'd be really easy for me to spend three or four days, three or four hours a day watching films, watching movies and just not just brain wasting.
00:43:21.900 --> 00:43:22.620
You know what I mean?
00:43:22.700 --> 00:43:23.820
And just being frustrated.
00:43:23.900 --> 00:43:36.059
That that's I don't know if there's anything more easy to do today than to just end up streaming film and TV for hours on end when you don't feel like doing anything.
00:43:37.019 --> 00:43:39.260
I mean, doom scrolling is probably even easier.
00:43:39.500 --> 00:43:50.380
Those, those, well, those things I would consider I would kind of throw that into, like, or just doom scrolling for two hours and then your brain is drained and you don't have any energy to even focus or think about anything.
00:43:50.460 --> 00:43:58.220
Because usually, if you're an artist and you're doom scrolling, you're not really you know, doom scrolling fail videos for three hours.
00:43:58.460 --> 00:44:10.700
You know, you're kind of doom scrolling the artist on your feed and what they're doing and the accomplishments they may be making and watching their highlight reels and thinking that they've got 50 years up on you because their highlight reels.
00:44:11.180 --> 00:44:15.900
Reels when they might be in the same place you're in, and then you don't want to make work for a week.
00:44:16.220 --> 00:44:16.860
Yeah.
00:44:17.420 --> 00:44:20.460
There's a lot of danger in those in those things.
00:44:22.300 --> 00:44:26.220
I guess what I'm kind of getting at in that is that I don't want to miss the discovery.
00:44:26.300 --> 00:44:38.300
So even in the moments where I'm not really like able to just jump into my work, I'm trying to find ways to be creative outside of it that still keep my mind in a creative mode.
00:44:38.380 --> 00:44:38.620
Yeah.
00:44:38.860 --> 00:44:39.740
If that makes sense.
00:44:40.140 --> 00:44:40.620
100%.
00:44:42.300 --> 00:44:47.099
Even just considering that idea of discovery itself, I referenced this a while back.
00:44:47.180 --> 00:44:52.940
I read a book a few months ago called The Explorer's Gene, and I've referenced it a couple of times in previous episodes.
00:44:53.180 --> 00:45:10.380
But one of the biggest takeaways that has really stuck with me from that book was how often how 99% of every discovery was off course at any given moment.
00:45:10.780 --> 00:45:28.620
And that all of the detours, all of the mistakes, all the fails, all the things that didn't go well were necessary steps to figure out ultimately what did work or what was going to get Explorer from point A to point B.
00:45:29.980 --> 00:45:37.900
That's super relevant, is just to again back to perspective, that idea of it's okay if I'm not on course right now.
00:45:38.700 --> 00:45:49.820
Realizing that the next piece that I make that is linear in its creation, where A leads to B, leads to C, leads to D, and we're done, will be the first.
00:45:50.059 --> 00:45:50.700
Yeah.
00:45:51.180 --> 00:45:55.260
And I say that acknowledging that it probably will never happen.
00:45:55.340 --> 00:45:58.940
And I'm not even sure that I would want it to if it could.
00:45:59.180 --> 00:46:01.340
Those detours are necessary, you know.
00:46:01.500 --> 00:46:06.460
And so when we're in those low moments, oh here I go talking about feelings again.
00:46:06.940 --> 00:46:12.300
When we're in those low moments, just reminding ourselves that this is part of the journey.
00:46:12.460 --> 00:46:13.099
Yeah.
00:46:13.900 --> 00:46:15.740
All right, let's listen to our next quote, Ty.
00:46:16.059 --> 00:46:16.620
Yep.
00:46:17.260 --> 00:46:19.260
Why do I still make things?
00:46:20.539 --> 00:46:23.660
My sense is I make things because it nourishes me.
00:46:23.980 --> 00:46:27.180
I make the work because the work is fulfilling.
00:46:27.500 --> 00:46:29.180
Now the work doesn't do everything.
00:46:29.500 --> 00:46:33.340
The studio doesn't do everything, but it it does a lot.
00:46:36.140 --> 00:46:37.740
I love that.
00:46:41.019 --> 00:46:42.380
Freaking love that.
00:46:42.940 --> 00:46:43.660
Well, you should.
00:46:43.740 --> 00:46:46.140
I mean, you're the one that that added it to our list today.
00:46:46.380 --> 00:46:51.900
Yeah, V V had I saw that because V had put it up today on Instagram, and I was like, yeah.
00:46:52.140 --> 00:47:05.500
Because I think I was as I was working on my app, I was reading through a bunch of my curriculum and I was reading through notes that I had made about my own frustrations and the moments where I'd just been like, why in the hell am I doing this?
00:47:05.820 --> 00:47:07.579
Why am I putting myself through this?
00:47:07.740 --> 00:47:09.820
Those hard, hard artist moments.
00:47:09.980 --> 00:47:25.099
I was at the Kurt Vonnegut Museum in Indianapolis just uh last month with my buddy Jeremy when we were there, and I sent you a picture that they had inside this glass box, and it was a box, like an old shoe box.
00:47:25.180 --> 00:47:27.980
It was just torn and kind of ripped up on the edges.
00:47:28.140 --> 00:47:32.460
I'll put a picture of it up in the uh YouTube video for this cast.
00:47:32.620 --> 00:47:40.220
And it was his rejection box from all the rejection letters that he had, and he had it written on there, I think it said rejections.
00:47:40.620 --> 00:47:42.940
And I I just broke.
00:47:43.260 --> 00:47:44.860
I was just in tears.
00:47:45.099 --> 00:47:54.860
And I was just like, you know, I'm here I am in a room that is celebrating one of my literary heroes, and the fact that his rejection box was right there.
00:47:55.340 --> 00:47:58.140
So I'm in the room based on his success.
00:47:59.660 --> 00:48:03.500
And I'm staring at all the rejections in a box.
00:48:03.980 --> 00:48:04.220
Right?
00:48:04.380 --> 00:48:05.900
It's like there's just a moment of hope.
00:48:06.140 --> 00:48:16.460
Not that I don't have hope in my work or myself as an artist, but there's just to be in that room with one of your heroes and just go, it took them, it was a journey for them too.
00:48:16.700 --> 00:48:18.140
It just feels good.
00:48:18.700 --> 00:48:19.260
Feels good.
00:48:19.420 --> 00:48:24.539
You feel like you're part of that class because you're like, Yeah, I'm getting rejected too, bro.
00:48:24.700 --> 00:48:32.300
No, it's like I just want to wrap my arms around the first Vonnegut photo I saw and just like welcome into my arms and go, yeah, I'm just like you, man.
00:48:32.539 --> 00:48:37.260
And so, man, just why do I still make things?
00:48:37.420 --> 00:48:39.500
Well, because it nourishes me.
00:48:39.740 --> 00:48:46.460
That's why I'm doing this, and that's what I tell myself in those moments where I just wanted to throw the towel in and go, I can't do this anymore.
00:48:46.700 --> 00:48:49.579
It's too heartbreaking when the hard things happen.
00:48:49.740 --> 00:48:50.860
It is heartbreaking.
00:48:51.019 --> 00:48:51.340
Yeah.
00:48:51.740 --> 00:48:58.940
But then I go, man, the next morning I wake up, I go, God, I want to get back in the studio so fast because it nourishes me.
00:48:59.180 --> 00:49:01.019
The work is filling.
00:49:01.820 --> 00:49:06.140
Now I love that he follows that up with it, doesn't do everything, but it sure does a lot.
00:49:09.500 --> 00:49:14.380
Side note, I just resolved a question I was trying to answer earlier, and I just need to put it in.
00:49:15.099 --> 00:49:16.220
So this would be great.
00:49:16.460 --> 00:49:19.980
Consider this exhibit A of Naven's brains.
00:49:20.700 --> 00:49:28.620
Yeah, yeah, it's a dark place you don't want to visit at night, but exhibit A of when while we're doing other things, yeah, ideas come to us.
00:49:28.700 --> 00:49:30.940
Things get resolved even when we're not thinking about them actively.
00:49:31.099 --> 00:49:35.340
I wanted to ask you because I know Jeremy a little bit, having uh hung out with him a couple times.
00:49:35.500 --> 00:49:43.579
Yeah, and I know he's a very, you know, deeply feeling, heart-centered individual who probably wasn't as affected emotionally by that specifically.
00:49:43.660 --> 00:49:47.500
How did he respond in that moment when you were I mean, are we just are tears just welling up?
00:49:47.660 --> 00:49:48.780
Let's talk about feelings.
00:49:49.019 --> 00:49:52.300
Are tears just welling up or are we are we streaming oh no?
00:49:52.380 --> 00:49:54.380
I was really obvious that you were okay.
00:49:54.460 --> 00:49:56.300
Yeah, I don't really respond in that moment.
00:49:56.539 --> 00:50:01.019
I'm a I don't care if people see me no tears streaming, you know what I mean.
00:50:01.260 --> 00:50:01.820
I know you're not gonna be able to do it.
00:50:01.900 --> 00:50:03.019
No, he was seeming to be crying.
00:50:03.099 --> 00:50:05.340
I'm curious, how did he Jeremy was around the corner?
00:50:05.579 --> 00:50:05.740
Okay.
00:50:05.980 --> 00:50:09.180
He was around the corner reading uh at the museum's fabulous.
00:50:09.340 --> 00:50:17.820
It was like we spent quite a bit of time there because I we had to read every little moment letter typed letter that he wrote to other people or politicians or whatever.
00:50:17.980 --> 00:50:19.579
I mean, it was just insane.
00:50:19.900 --> 00:50:21.180
I highly recommend it.
00:50:21.260 --> 00:50:24.620
If you're ever in Indianapolis, you cannot miss the Vonnegut Museum.
00:50:24.700 --> 00:50:26.380
It's it's incredible.
00:50:26.620 --> 00:50:29.579
Um he was around the corner, but I stood there for a while.
00:50:29.740 --> 00:50:34.620
Um, and I remember I when I I speak out loud, I've talked about this before at museums and things.
00:50:34.700 --> 00:50:37.180
I'm not one to hide my emotion.
00:50:37.260 --> 00:50:45.420
And I'm looking at this glass case as a bunch of things, and I come around the corner and I go, His rejection slips.
00:50:45.579 --> 00:50:48.860
And it even says, like, be quiet, like in the room, kind of like a library in the room.
00:50:48.940 --> 00:50:51.180
But I'm going, Oh my gosh, and I'm looking for Jeremy.
00:50:51.340 --> 00:50:52.539
Where are you gonna show you this?
00:50:52.620 --> 00:50:53.340
Because he knows.
00:50:53.420 --> 00:50:57.260
I I he's my he's my buddy, so we talk about this stuff quite a bit.
00:50:57.420 --> 00:51:03.180
So when he I waited until he came around the corner and I was going, gotta come see this.
00:51:03.340 --> 00:51:05.019
Look at this, it's insane, you know.
00:51:05.099 --> 00:51:07.660
And he was like, Wow, he knew what it meant for me.
00:51:07.820 --> 00:51:10.300
Um, so it was a pretty powerful moment.
00:51:12.380 --> 00:51:14.940
I want to zero in on that last, the last part of that quote.
00:51:15.260 --> 00:51:15.660
Yep.
00:51:16.059 --> 00:51:19.579
The studio doesn't do everything, but it does a lot.
00:51:20.860 --> 00:51:31.099
And I was just reflecting on how I don't understand exactly where let me rephrase that.
00:51:31.180 --> 00:51:32.140
Let me start over.
00:51:33.099 --> 00:51:39.340
I don't understand exactly what it does, what that nourishment is, or even why I need it.
00:51:39.420 --> 00:51:41.900
I just know that I do.
00:51:42.300 --> 00:51:44.140
I know that it's significant.
00:51:44.380 --> 00:51:50.700
And I know this because when I don't get it, I don't feel whole.
00:51:50.940 --> 00:51:53.500
I'm a little twitchy, I'm a little off.
00:51:53.740 --> 00:51:58.620
If I go more than a couple days without making something.
00:51:58.780 --> 00:52:15.340
And as we've discussed many times before, you know, we're not always in our studio, we're not always in the optimal place to do what maybe what we're doing on a regular basis, but there's always a scale-down, you know, travel right version of making, of writing about the work that that can be done.
00:52:15.420 --> 00:52:18.380
But I just know I again, I just I don't I don't understand it.
00:52:18.460 --> 00:52:19.579
I don't need to understand it.
00:52:19.740 --> 00:52:28.380
The only thing that I need to know for sure is that I need it and that it does something for me that nothing else does.
00:52:28.620 --> 00:52:29.180
Yeah.
00:52:29.420 --> 00:52:41.420
Well, that's why I call it my sanctuary, my place of worship, and my playground, you know, because it is a very spiritual place that evokes depth and worship for me.
00:52:41.500 --> 00:52:42.780
And it's also my playground.
00:52:42.940 --> 00:52:49.260
It's a place where I can be four years old with not a care in the world, and I can just have absolute freedom and play.
00:52:49.500 --> 00:52:53.019
Like it's really a massive combination of both those things.
00:52:53.180 --> 00:53:00.780
So you think about it, if that's in my if that's in my brain space and personality as an artist, that it means that for me.
00:53:00.940 --> 00:53:06.620
That if I'm spending too much time away from it, you can only imagine what is missing.
00:53:08.860 --> 00:53:10.700
And I think that's something to really think about.
00:53:10.780 --> 00:53:13.820
Now, that doesn't mean, right, studio is where you make art.
00:53:13.980 --> 00:53:21.980
Doesn't matter if it's a loft, a building, a warehouse, a bedroom, a bathroom, living room that has to be cleaned up, you know, every day when everybody comes home.
00:53:22.059 --> 00:53:24.539
It's just that's your place you make work.
00:53:24.700 --> 00:53:30.300
So think about when you're not there and you're not in it, what is missing for you?
00:53:30.860 --> 00:53:41.820
This is an idea, Ty, that I've been reflecting on a lot lately, which is beyond what does the process and what does the studio practice do for me or what's the point.
00:53:41.980 --> 00:53:49.180
It's back to this idea of something that we've discussed, you know, many times before and certainly will again, which is what is the work about?
00:53:49.740 --> 00:53:58.700
And I've been thinking a lot about, you know, what the studio has taught me, what art has taught me, and just the benefit.
00:53:58.780 --> 00:54:09.660
I guess this is maybe as close as I can get to putting my finger on what that nourishment is or one version of the nutrients, you know, that come from making art.
00:54:10.380 --> 00:54:18.380
But it's the way that our work continues to tell us what it's about versus the other way around.
00:54:18.460 --> 00:54:22.300
I think that's a little bit about what Bradford's referring to.
00:54:22.780 --> 00:54:24.460
That's the small voice.
00:54:24.620 --> 00:54:24.940
Yeah.
00:54:25.180 --> 00:54:30.220
The big voice might be here's what I'm trying to do with this, here's what I'm trying to say.
00:54:30.539 --> 00:54:31.099
Great.
00:54:31.260 --> 00:54:32.780
There's a there's a place for that.
00:54:32.940 --> 00:54:35.420
That's a that's a reasonable starting point.
00:54:35.900 --> 00:54:39.260
But ultimately, the work tells us what it's about.
00:54:39.340 --> 00:55:07.579
You know, for me, understanding how my experience with recovery and my personal transformation as an individual, you know, going from um an addict that almost, you know, lost my life and or my freedom to what my life is today, it's it's been so nourishing to be able to really understand something that I didn't at first.
00:55:08.380 --> 00:55:09.340
I didn't know.
00:55:09.579 --> 00:55:19.180
I didn't, I didn't have a grand plan to say what I am now attempting to say with my work, but the work told me.
00:55:19.340 --> 00:55:25.180
And that's that's such a such a beautiful, beautiful thing that I'm yeah, so thankful for.
00:55:25.500 --> 00:55:33.420
Well, you um, so a couple days ago, it might have been last week, you put up an Instagram video that for me was extremely powerful.
00:55:33.500 --> 00:55:37.019
And I know for a number of our friends, artist friends, it was it was very powerful.
00:55:37.180 --> 00:55:42.620
And it was just a short reel where you were celebrating your 24th year, right?
00:55:42.860 --> 00:55:47.099
24th year of recovery, which congratulations, just a beautiful thing.
00:55:47.340 --> 00:56:15.019
And you were sharing your story and your process with work and really the nourishment that it's brought you in this journey that is now at 24 years of fight and as well, not just with fight, but of giving back the way that I've watched you and observed you give back in that community, um, in the recovery community with numerous addicts of different levels, just been incredible to watch.
00:56:15.099 --> 00:56:37.900
And knowing you now with that and knowing your work and process, to me, it's just a an absolutely deeply motivating thing to see all of those things kind of come to fruition in one and that nourishment being found in the studio, but also recognizing that it doesn't do everything.
00:56:38.380 --> 00:56:41.180
Because I know your life outside the studio, too.
00:56:41.260 --> 00:56:42.860
There's a lot of purpose and intention.
00:56:42.940 --> 00:56:49.420
And so you have to have that balance of all of those things, knowing the studio doesn't do everything.
00:56:49.500 --> 00:56:52.860
There's things outside of it that does, but the studio sure does a lot.
00:56:53.099 --> 00:56:53.420
Yeah.
00:56:53.660 --> 00:56:54.059
Preach.
00:56:54.220 --> 00:56:58.620
But I highly suggest everybody go to Nathan's Instagram and watch that reel.
00:56:58.940 --> 00:57:00.220
All right, so let's wrap this up.
00:57:00.300 --> 00:57:03.099
We talked about how making is hard, how it's not always fun.
00:57:03.260 --> 00:57:07.260
We talked about, in spite of that, it also gives us a lot.
00:57:07.420 --> 00:57:09.579
It slows our thinking to get to the idea.
00:57:09.740 --> 00:57:16.780
Is making in and of itself is the thinking, and that it nourishes us in ways that we we can't even comprehend.
00:57:17.099 --> 00:57:18.300
Any closing thoughts, Ty?
00:57:18.460 --> 00:57:19.099
Anything you want to add?
00:57:19.180 --> 00:57:19.820
Do you feel complete?
00:57:19.980 --> 00:57:21.579
Any other feelings you want to share?
00:57:22.059 --> 00:57:24.380
No, I think I've I've shared quite a bit of feelings today.
00:57:24.620 --> 00:57:28.220
I'm gonna go I'm gonna go lay on the couch outside and cry the rest of the afternoon.
00:57:28.620 --> 00:57:29.099
It's great.
00:57:29.180 --> 00:57:29.740
It's great.
00:57:30.059 --> 00:57:34.620
So here's some um some questions to consider, dear listener.
00:57:34.780 --> 00:57:37.900
What is your relationship with your creative process?
00:57:38.059 --> 00:57:38.700
Yeah.
00:57:39.099 --> 00:57:40.860
It's a really good thing to ponder.
00:57:40.940 --> 00:57:43.820
It's a really good thing to back to that idea of perspective.
00:57:43.900 --> 00:57:47.579
It's a really useful thing to consider and really sit with.
00:57:48.460 --> 00:57:52.860
What's my relationship, not just with the work, not just with the result?
00:57:53.180 --> 00:57:56.780
What's my relationship with my creative process?
00:57:57.099 --> 00:58:05.420
And how can we embed more perspective into the here and now?
00:58:05.500 --> 00:58:16.460
How can we remove ourselves from the frustration, all the moments when things aren't going well, to keep keep perspective, to keep that high-level view of, yeah, but it's it's going somewhere.
00:58:16.700 --> 00:58:20.700
I was thinking earlier, just as an encouraging thought, I suppose.
00:58:20.940 --> 00:58:30.140
But if you've ever completed anything that you are happy with, even just once, you know that there is something on the other side of discovery.
00:58:30.220 --> 00:58:31.340
We don't need to know what.
00:58:31.579 --> 00:58:32.700
We don't need to know when.
00:58:32.860 --> 00:58:37.260
We probably don't, but something is on the other side of discovery.
00:58:37.500 --> 00:58:45.420
We would love to also hear from you out there, artists, and just share with us any of your own experiences with making and thinking.
00:58:45.579 --> 00:58:50.860
Let us know what are your processes, what are the ways that you kind of navigate these things that we talked about?
00:58:51.019 --> 00:58:54.860
Are you living in a state of discovery, or is it something that you're really kind of struggling with in your work?
00:58:55.099 --> 00:58:56.860
We'd we'd love to hear from you for sure.
00:58:57.099 --> 00:58:59.900
And as we always say, just make art.
00:58:59.980 --> 00:59:07.099
And we're gonna leave you with Sheila Hicks again, just kind of giving you a little bit of encouragement to uh finish your week with.
00:59:07.260 --> 00:59:10.220
So we hope you have a great day and go make some art.
00:59:10.539 --> 00:59:12.780
To be alive is to sort of discover.
00:59:15.340 --> 00:59:16.700
So hang in there.
00:59:17.980 --> 00:59:21.820
Because you never know what the next discovery might be.
00:59:22.460 --> 00:59:23.579
Hang in there.