Shappi Khorsandi

WEBVTT
00:00:13.439 --> 00:00:14.800
Welcome back.
00:00:15.279 --> 00:00:23.600
What a pleasure it is to be sat here today with the inimitable Shapi Korsandi.
00:00:23.839 --> 00:00:28.239
Comedian, author, advocate, parent.
00:00:28.719 --> 00:00:29.679
Actually, do you know what?
00:00:29.760 --> 00:00:35.600
Before we go any further, I've just walked down the stairs to this basement studio for the first time.
00:00:36.079 --> 00:00:40.479
And I was having really odd I've been here before thoughts.
00:00:40.719 --> 00:00:41.840
And do you know what it was?
00:00:42.000 --> 00:00:42.960
This is true.
00:00:43.200 --> 00:00:53.520
In the mid-80s, I and a mate of mine called Tom wanted to start a comedy club on this exact site.
00:00:54.000 --> 00:00:55.119
Wow, and here we are.
00:00:55.359 --> 00:00:58.880
Which was then a sort of Tex-Mex restaurant called Break for the Border.
00:00:59.119 --> 00:01:01.359
I rem Oh, is this Break for the Border?
00:01:01.600 --> 00:01:02.960
I I reckon this is the building.
00:01:03.119 --> 00:01:05.840
Just run the story up for what was the story very late.
00:01:06.159 --> 00:01:06.959
It was open late.
00:01:07.280 --> 00:01:09.280
I might have seen you in there back in the day in the 90s.
00:01:09.760 --> 00:01:10.159
Quite possible.
00:01:10.319 --> 00:01:13.040
We were going to call it Tom and Jerry's, which is kind of obvious.
00:01:13.359 --> 00:01:14.640
And I don't know what happened.
00:01:14.719 --> 00:01:15.439
They said no.
00:01:15.680 --> 00:01:16.000
Hey.
00:01:16.480 --> 00:01:19.519
I remember we'd always go Break for the Border?
00:01:19.760 --> 00:01:23.200
Like you know you're in trouble if you're going to break for the Border back in the day.
00:01:23.680 --> 00:01:24.480
That's when it all started.
00:01:25.120 --> 00:01:28.799
I know this place because a lot of comedians have parties here.
00:01:29.680 --> 00:01:36.000
So as I came down the stairs, it was very strange that that lovely green room wasn't piled up with coats.
00:01:36.319 --> 00:01:36.480
Okay.
00:01:36.799 --> 00:01:39.200
Because it's always a and I didn't even know this room was here.
00:01:39.359 --> 00:01:40.719
Oh no, no, I've been in here.
00:01:40.799 --> 00:01:41.519
What am I talking about?
00:01:41.680 --> 00:01:45.200
I did Sarah Pasco's podcast in here, I think.
00:01:45.359 --> 00:01:46.319
Anyway, it doesn't matter.
00:01:46.480 --> 00:01:46.959
We're here now.
00:01:47.280 --> 00:01:47.920
It's the place to be here.
00:01:48.159 --> 00:01:49.200
You missed something off your list.
00:01:49.519 --> 00:01:49.840
What's that?
00:01:50.159 --> 00:01:52.480
I am now a full-time student.
00:01:53.359 --> 00:01:55.280
We will come to that.
00:01:55.760 --> 00:01:57.519
I can't believe I want the sticker.
00:01:57.920 --> 00:02:01.040
I was like, he's not going to say I'm a student or a keen cyclist.
00:02:01.599 --> 00:02:07.920
I thought we'd have, you know, about forty-five seconds on comedy and then about two hours on hypnotherapy and stuff.
00:02:08.000 --> 00:02:08.319
Is that okay?
00:02:08.719 --> 00:02:11.280
I lied just now when I said keen cyclist.
00:02:11.439 --> 00:02:13.280
I'm actually thinking of selling my bike.
00:02:14.000 --> 00:02:14.879
I can't help you there.
00:02:15.520 --> 00:02:16.400
Scared of roads.
00:02:16.960 --> 00:02:17.120
Okay.
00:02:18.080 --> 00:02:19.280
Well, we can come back to that one.
00:02:19.919 --> 00:02:20.639
We're gonna have to.
00:02:21.360 --> 00:02:22.159
Hypnotherapy.
00:02:22.240 --> 00:02:22.639
I got this.
00:02:22.960 --> 00:02:23.840
Why hypnotherapy?
00:02:24.159 --> 00:02:24.639
Oh sorry.
00:02:24.719 --> 00:02:26.080
Is it psychotherapy?
00:02:27.120 --> 00:02:28.240
So I don't know why.
00:02:28.319 --> 00:02:31.599
It's because everybody tells me to go for hypnotherapy to stop smoking.
00:02:32.080 --> 00:02:36.080
I was going to say something really creepy there and go, it's is it because my eyes are mesmeric?
00:02:36.400 --> 00:02:36.560
Yeah.
00:02:36.639 --> 00:02:37.199
It's exactly that.
00:02:37.599 --> 00:02:39.120
And I'm glad I didn't say that out loud.
00:02:39.759 --> 00:02:47.599
I've got this slightly annoying habit of wanting to start sort of skipping through somebody's life.
00:02:48.240 --> 00:02:48.560
Sure.
00:02:49.199 --> 00:02:58.639
So just for the tiny number of people in Kazakhstan or actually somebody said recently we're getting quite big in Belgium, which I'm very proud about.
00:02:59.039 --> 00:03:00.319
That's where Stromay's from.
00:03:00.639 --> 00:03:01.199
Where what?
00:03:01.599 --> 00:03:04.639
Where one of my son's favourite artists, Stromay.
00:03:04.879 --> 00:03:05.360
Stromay.
00:03:05.759 --> 00:03:05.840
Okay.
00:03:06.240 --> 00:03:12.639
And I've been listening to him obsessively because I like to keep up with my children's music as a way of making them like me.
00:03:13.199 --> 00:03:13.599
Yeah.
00:03:13.919 --> 00:03:16.960
I mean I'm not a parent, but I that might not work.
00:03:17.199 --> 00:03:18.240
But let's not go there.
00:03:18.400 --> 00:03:20.879
Instead, I want to tell our listener.
00:03:21.439 --> 00:03:29.759
That you and your family fled to this country after the Islamic Revolution in Iran in 1979.
00:03:30.479 --> 00:03:39.360
And it might have been, according to my notes, because your father wrote satirical poetry mocking the regime.
00:03:39.520 --> 00:03:40.000
Is that true?
00:03:40.400 --> 00:03:41.360
Yes, that is true.
00:03:41.840 --> 00:03:46.960
So you came here and you were granted asylum, thank goodness.
00:03:47.360 --> 00:03:50.479
And given protection by the Metropolitan Police.
00:03:50.879 --> 00:03:52.000
Yeah, that was later.
00:03:52.159 --> 00:03:57.840
That was in the eighties, because Scotland Yard uncovered a plot to assassinate my dad.
00:03:58.080 --> 00:04:01.919
It wasn't just that he wrote a few poems, he was very, very famous.
00:04:02.319 --> 00:04:02.479
Okay.
00:04:02.800 --> 00:04:17.519
He was a very famous journalist and satirist and was a huge voice of the left back then who wanted revolution and now, you know, living to see the horrors that that brought.
00:04:18.240 --> 00:04:19.680
We might come back to that briefly.
00:04:20.639 --> 00:04:25.439
I mean, there's nothing I like talking about more really than the traumas of my people for yeah.
00:04:25.759 --> 00:04:26.160
Well let's go.
00:04:26.319 --> 00:04:32.399
Let's give ahead because well, I just want to say that you told the story of being a child refugee.
00:04:32.720 --> 00:04:32.879
Yeah.
00:04:33.199 --> 00:04:40.560
Both in a theatre show and in what are known as childhood memoirs, which I read, but it was quite a long time ago.
00:04:40.959 --> 00:04:41.680
It was a long time ago.
00:04:42.000 --> 00:04:45.120
Called A Beginner's Guide to Acting English.
00:04:45.680 --> 00:04:47.199
Wasn't my idea that title.
00:04:47.519 --> 00:04:49.279
I was just going to say it's a fabulous title.
00:04:49.600 --> 00:04:50.240
Oh, okay.
00:04:50.319 --> 00:04:52.160
Well, I it was my idea that title.
00:04:52.720 --> 00:04:52.879
Good.
00:04:52.959 --> 00:04:53.920
We'll keep that in.
00:04:54.240 --> 00:04:57.920
Now, since those early days, you have appeared.
00:04:58.000 --> 00:05:00.560
I've looked at the list, I mean I didn't really get to the end of it.
00:05:00.720 --> 00:05:05.759
But you've appeared on a galaxy of TV staples.
00:05:06.000 --> 00:05:12.879
Zeike, McIntyre's Comedy, Roadshow, Mock the Week, Have I Got News, QI.
00:05:13.360 --> 00:05:16.399
And of course, Pointless Celebrities.
00:05:16.879 --> 00:05:17.600
Which I won.
00:05:18.079 --> 00:05:18.480
Did you?
00:05:18.800 --> 00:05:19.600
I won it, yeah.
00:05:19.680 --> 00:05:19.920
Thank you.
00:05:20.319 --> 00:05:20.399
Okay.
00:05:20.639 --> 00:05:21.360
Proud at the top?
00:05:21.680 --> 00:05:22.959
One of the occasions, yes, very proud.
00:05:23.040 --> 00:05:23.120
Thank you.
00:05:23.439 --> 00:05:24.240
Sorry, one of the occasions.
00:05:24.319 --> 00:05:25.040
How many times did you lose?
00:05:25.360 --> 00:05:28.879
I think I've done it three times, and the first time I did it, I did had no idea of the rules.
00:05:29.040 --> 00:05:32.560
I rarely know what's going on when I'm booked for things.
00:05:32.720 --> 00:05:37.839
And and then after I've done them a few times, if I'm allowed to do them a few times, it becomes clear.
00:05:37.920 --> 00:05:40.319
I didn't understand the point of pointless.
00:05:40.399 --> 00:05:43.920
I didn't I got all excited when I thought of the most obvious answer.
00:05:44.240 --> 00:05:44.480
Yes.
00:05:44.800 --> 00:05:45.759
And would blurt it out.
00:05:46.160 --> 00:05:47.439
Have you still got the trophy?
00:05:47.759 --> 00:05:48.480
Of course I have.
00:05:48.639 --> 00:05:52.240
It it keeps my it keeps it sits on my bin lid.
00:05:52.800 --> 00:06:02.000
Because I've got a new cat, a rescue cat, and he scavenges as animals do when they've experienced real hunger.
00:06:02.160 --> 00:06:06.319
And I've got one of those bins that if you touch it, it opens and he just keeps going in the bin.
00:06:06.399 --> 00:06:12.959
So I've had to put my pointless In fact, my son did it because he thought that would that would be funny.
00:06:13.120 --> 00:06:14.160
And he put it on the bin.
00:06:14.240 --> 00:06:15.759
So that's where it lives now on my bin.
00:06:16.160 --> 00:06:17.040
It is funny.
00:06:17.279 --> 00:06:20.480
You have also I'm still on your very long list of credits.
00:06:20.800 --> 00:06:23.360
You've also sat around the table on Question Time.
00:06:23.759 --> 00:06:24.480
Gosh, yes.
00:06:24.879 --> 00:06:26.879
Which is interesting.
00:06:27.279 --> 00:06:31.519
And Radio 4 comedy corridor stuff like Just a Minute.
00:06:31.680 --> 00:06:34.959
And your own series of Shappy Talk.
00:06:35.360 --> 00:06:35.839
Yes.
00:06:36.240 --> 00:06:36.720
Enjoy that?
00:06:36.959 --> 00:06:37.279
Have I?
00:06:37.360 --> 00:06:37.600
Did I?
00:06:37.759 --> 00:06:38.560
Shappy Talk.
00:06:38.800 --> 00:06:38.959
Yeah.
00:06:39.120 --> 00:06:39.439
Did I?
00:06:39.600 --> 00:06:40.560
Was that on Radio 4?
00:06:40.800 --> 00:06:40.879
Yeah.
00:06:41.279 --> 00:06:41.439
Again.
00:06:41.759 --> 00:06:42.800
Oh, my memory's terrible.
00:06:43.199 --> 00:06:43.600
So is mine.
00:06:43.759 --> 00:06:44.480
Should we just stop here?
00:06:44.959 --> 00:06:50.000
So no, I'm going to plough through because I want to tell our Belgian listener that you've written a brace of novels.
00:06:50.319 --> 00:06:50.399
Yes.
00:06:50.879 --> 00:06:52.160
Nina Is Not Okay.
00:06:52.720 --> 00:06:57.279
And last year Kissing Emma for young adults.
00:06:58.079 --> 00:06:58.639
Yeah, that was tough.
00:06:58.959 --> 00:07:00.240
I'm never doing that again.
00:07:00.959 --> 00:07:02.000
A young adult book.
00:07:02.480 --> 00:07:03.279
This thing, right?
00:07:03.519 --> 00:07:04.959
Here's my problem, Jeremy.
00:07:05.120 --> 00:07:12.079
I do so many things and I say yes to so many things without knowing the spec.
00:07:12.560 --> 00:07:19.439
It's not that my brain goes, I should investigate this or I'm not going to bother investigating this.
00:07:19.600 --> 00:07:22.000
My brain goes, you know this.
00:07:22.319 --> 00:07:27.680
So my brain went young adult, that is 16 to 24.
00:07:28.000 --> 00:07:41.279
And so I wrote this book that had such gruesome sex in it, and I sent it to the publishers, and they're so polite in publishing, so much more polite than in comedy.
00:07:41.439 --> 00:07:46.800
They said, Do you think that the sex could be implied rather than splayed out quite so graphically?
00:07:47.120 --> 00:07:51.279
Turns out young adults is like 11 to like 15.
00:07:51.680 --> 00:07:52.240
Oh, I didn't know that.
00:07:52.399 --> 00:07:53.680
I'm surprised nobody told you, by the way.
00:07:53.920 --> 00:08:02.399
Writing a book was I think people assume that when I meet other people, other writers, other comics, I'm learning how thorough they are.
00:08:02.560 --> 00:08:09.839
For example, so many comics, most comics, everyone but me, when they go on tour, they check ticket sales.
00:08:10.240 --> 00:08:10.639
Yes.
00:08:10.959 --> 00:08:11.680
I don't.
00:08:11.839 --> 00:08:12.639
I just turn up.
00:08:12.720 --> 00:08:15.839
Like a comic friend goes, Oh, well, I've only sold this many for this gig.
00:08:15.920 --> 00:08:17.120
So I've been talking to my agent.
00:08:17.279 --> 00:08:18.079
I'm like, really?
00:08:18.480 --> 00:08:19.759
How do you know?
00:08:20.000 --> 00:08:21.360
Why do you care?
00:08:22.160 --> 00:08:24.160
Why are you a millionaire and I'm not?
00:08:24.240 --> 00:08:25.360
So is that the reason?
00:08:25.519 --> 00:08:26.720
Maybe that's why.
00:08:26.959 --> 00:08:32.879
I just go live my life minute to minute, but not in necessarily like a cool, fun way.
00:08:33.360 --> 00:08:36.720
But the phrase blissful ignorance is coming to my mind.
00:08:37.120 --> 00:08:37.759
I don't know.
00:08:38.000 --> 00:08:43.120
Do you know once I said yes to a gig in Norway?
00:08:43.200 --> 00:08:44.159
I thought it was a gig.
00:08:44.240 --> 00:08:45.840
They said panel show.
00:08:46.159 --> 00:08:46.879
Panel.
00:08:47.279 --> 00:08:51.440
I assumed it was a panel show gig in Norway.
00:08:51.600 --> 00:08:58.320
When I got there, I found out that it was a very serious panel discussion in front of about 3,000 people.
00:08:58.720 --> 00:08:59.440
In Norwegian?
00:08:59.679 --> 00:09:01.120
No, in English, thankfully.
00:09:01.360 --> 00:09:02.960
And it was about democracy.
00:09:03.039 --> 00:09:11.360
And it was me, Sasha Navalnaya, daughter of Alexei Navalny, Alistair Campbell, and the former head of MI6.
00:09:11.919 --> 00:09:12.480
Which one?
00:09:12.639 --> 00:09:13.120
I loved it.
00:09:13.519 --> 00:09:14.000
Dear Love.
00:09:14.240 --> 00:09:15.120
No, not Dear Love.
00:09:15.279 --> 00:09:15.759
Lovely man.
00:09:16.159 --> 00:09:16.639
Younger.
00:09:16.960 --> 00:09:17.600
Younger.
00:09:17.840 --> 00:09:23.600
And I wondered if the whoever booked me muddled me up with Shami Chakrabati or something.
00:09:25.120 --> 00:09:39.039
I sat there while Sasha Navalnaya, this brilliant twenty-two-year-old young woman, talked about her incredibly wonderful, brilliant father and the trauma they'd suffered under Putin.
00:09:39.200 --> 00:09:41.759
And I'm I'm just sat there like a potato.
00:09:42.559 --> 00:09:43.679
It was fine in the end.
00:09:44.080 --> 00:09:44.480
Of course it was.
00:09:47.440 --> 00:09:53.120
I took one of the most hated figures in this country.
00:09:53.360 --> 00:09:55.200
Having started the sentence, I'm gonna have to tell you that.
00:09:55.600 --> 00:09:56.080
Nigel Farage.
00:09:57.120 --> 00:09:57.440
Oh, sorry.
00:09:57.679 --> 00:09:58.240
No, no.
00:09:58.720 --> 00:10:02.000
Sorry if Nigel Farage is listening, I'm really not sorry.
00:10:02.639 --> 00:10:04.720
He won't be because he's banned from listening.
00:10:06.240 --> 00:10:08.559
From the opposite perspective, John Burko.
00:10:09.679 --> 00:10:16.159
I took John to Milan to do a chat show which was in Italian.
00:10:16.559 --> 00:10:20.559
And John didn't and doesn't speak a word of Italian.
00:10:20.799 --> 00:10:25.279
And I cannot believe how relaxed he was.
00:10:25.440 --> 00:10:29.519
Because the whole thing he had an earpiece in with simultaneous translation.
00:10:30.000 --> 00:10:32.559
And he made it work, and the crowd went crazy.
00:10:32.799 --> 00:10:34.879
Sorry, there's a bit of a cul-de-sat note story.
00:10:34.960 --> 00:10:43.440
But the point is doing English answers as he was for a non-English audience, they do that kind of thing.
00:10:43.600 --> 00:10:44.399
We don't.
00:10:45.120 --> 00:10:48.879
We don't have Norwegians and Italians come over here and talk in their native language.
00:10:49.279 --> 00:10:52.159
Well, no, I mean you see it on the TV all the time, don't you?
00:10:52.320 --> 00:10:59.279
Coming over here without a word of English, and very few of us have very few words in other languages.
00:10:59.440 --> 00:11:02.159
It's uh I think that's part of English culture that needs to change.
00:11:02.240 --> 00:11:03.519
Because it wasn't always like that.
00:11:03.679 --> 00:11:08.000
It was expected to have a second language at some point in our history.
00:11:08.240 --> 00:11:18.080
But you know, what with colonization and all that malarkey, um it became the main language, and it is not the case anymore in terms of the economy.
00:11:18.639 --> 00:11:19.279
Oh that.
00:11:19.440 --> 00:11:21.120
We're not going to talk about the economy today.
00:11:21.600 --> 00:11:29.759
Sorry, I'm I have a son who is studying politics, and I find myself, he'll just come down and go, Mommy, what do you think about the bloody blah de blah blah blah?
00:11:30.000 --> 00:11:33.120
And I have to Google everything he talks about, so I'm not like a dum-dum.
00:11:33.360 --> 00:11:37.919
So I know very little about a lot of things to do with the economy.
00:11:38.399 --> 00:11:41.279
You should flip that on its head and just look up a few phrases.
00:11:41.759 --> 00:11:42.720
Like Keynesian.
00:11:42.799 --> 00:11:44.720
I know about Keynesian Keynesian, this and that.
00:11:44.799 --> 00:11:45.600
I'll give you another one.
00:11:46.080 --> 00:11:48.559
Toss in the phrase creative destruction.
00:11:49.200 --> 00:11:49.360
Right.
00:11:49.440 --> 00:11:50.720
Yes, we talked about that the other day.
00:11:52.159 --> 00:11:54.159
In psychotherapy, we have creative indifference.
00:11:54.559 --> 00:11:55.919
We're just about to get to psychotherapy.
00:11:56.320 --> 00:11:56.799
Okay, sorry, sorry.
00:11:57.200 --> 00:11:59.120
Honestly, you've got to stay on a track for these Belgians.
00:11:59.200 --> 00:12:00.320
You know, they're they're very linear.
00:12:00.720 --> 00:12:00.879
Okay.
00:12:00.960 --> 00:12:02.960
With these Jeremies means Exactly.
00:12:03.360 --> 00:12:05.039
So well, I'm there now.
00:12:05.360 --> 00:12:10.639
After these novels, you then actually this might be the wrong this is the wrong order.
00:12:11.440 --> 00:12:19.440
But having been diagnosed with ADHD in your forties it's hard to believe you're any older now, but you are.
00:12:19.840 --> 00:12:31.279
Having been diagnosed, you decided to write about that and your life through the prism of having been diagnosed with another brilliant title called Scatter Brain.
00:12:31.840 --> 00:12:32.639
I choose that title.
00:12:33.039 --> 00:12:34.240
Yeah, no, I thought you were going to say that.
00:12:34.720 --> 00:12:40.720
And having done that, you are now training to be a psychotherapist.
00:12:41.120 --> 00:12:42.879
I am a gestalt psychotherapist.
00:12:43.200 --> 00:12:43.440
Of course.
00:12:43.679 --> 00:12:43.840
Yeah.
00:12:44.399 --> 00:12:45.039
That's the intro.
00:12:45.519 --> 00:12:45.759
Brilliant.
00:12:46.080 --> 00:12:49.679
Sometimes we haven't got much time for any more after the intro, but I think we can squeeze a bit in.
00:12:50.000 --> 00:12:51.759
I want to start at the beginning of your story.
00:12:52.000 --> 00:12:54.559
I want to start an Iran, if I may.
00:12:55.919 --> 00:12:59.519
Because it feels sort of topical.
00:13:00.639 --> 00:13:02.320
Yes, I can see why you would say that.
00:13:02.879 --> 00:13:11.200
From what you've just said about your family background, I presume you're not one of those who wants the Shah's son to come back, are you?
00:13:11.600 --> 00:13:13.679
Oh listen, I would have Basil Brush there.
00:13:14.080 --> 00:13:15.440
Basil Brush is dead.
00:13:15.759 --> 00:13:16.000
No.
00:13:16.399 --> 00:13:16.879
Yes, true.
00:13:17.200 --> 00:13:17.840
Oh, why?
00:13:18.000 --> 00:13:18.960
Why just blurt that out?
00:13:19.440 --> 00:13:22.480
Derek Folds didn't look after him well in his old age.
00:13:22.799 --> 00:13:23.679
I know, I'm sorry.
00:13:24.080 --> 00:13:25.759
You'll find cheap copies all over the place.
00:13:26.080 --> 00:13:26.159
Okay.
00:13:26.399 --> 00:13:28.000
This is like a real roll bristle here.
00:13:28.080 --> 00:13:30.399
I'm we can talk about it.
00:13:30.879 --> 00:13:31.679
You've got your memories.
00:13:32.559 --> 00:13:33.519
No, it is, I agree.
00:13:33.600 --> 00:13:35.200
I I mean I was watching.
00:13:35.600 --> 00:13:39.759
I met Reza Pallavy when my son was three.
00:13:40.080 --> 00:13:43.759
So I don't know what eighteen minus three is, but that many years ago.
00:13:44.240 --> 00:13:46.399
This is your son who's doing a maths A-level today.
00:13:46.639 --> 00:13:46.720
Yes.
00:13:46.879 --> 00:13:47.039
Yes.
00:13:47.279 --> 00:13:48.159
Okay, he probably knows.
00:13:48.480 --> 00:13:50.080
It was fifteen years ago.
00:13:50.320 --> 00:13:58.559
My dad said, Uh Reza Pallavi is in London and he's invited me to have a cup of tea at the Dorchester.
00:13:58.720 --> 00:13:59.519
Would you like to come?
00:13:59.679 --> 00:14:02.879
I was like, Yes, I do, and can I bring my baby boy?
00:14:03.120 --> 00:14:05.440
And he went, Yeah, so we went along to meet him.
00:14:05.519 --> 00:14:07.600
And you know, my dad's the old foe.
00:14:07.759 --> 00:14:11.600
And they met and he got my son a hot chocolate.
00:14:11.919 --> 00:14:16.559
And my dad and he chatted, and my dad said, Why have you, you know, summoned me?
00:14:16.720 --> 00:14:18.320
He goes, Look, I just want to talk.
00:14:18.559 --> 00:14:20.559
I want to talk to people from all walks.
00:14:20.720 --> 00:14:22.960
I want to let bygones be bygones.
00:14:23.120 --> 00:14:27.759
And when the time comes and we are able to go back to Iran, I want us to be unified.
00:14:28.080 --> 00:14:32.240
And then as we left, he said to my dad, You see, we can be friends.
00:14:32.320 --> 00:14:35.279
And my dad said, Of course we can, until you're in power.
00:14:35.519 --> 00:14:37.360
And then we'll be Tom and Jerry again.
00:14:37.519 --> 00:14:38.639
And that's what I want.
00:14:38.879 --> 00:14:44.799
I want a leader in Iran that if you criticize them, you won't get hanged.
00:14:45.200 --> 00:14:45.919
Seems reasonable.
00:14:46.240 --> 00:14:47.519
It's not a big ask, is it?
00:14:47.759 --> 00:14:47.919
No.
00:14:48.159 --> 00:14:48.480
No.
00:14:49.120 --> 00:14:56.320
So I don't live in Iran, so I'm not going to get into the nitty, you know, into deep about what I want or what I think is right for Iran.
00:14:56.480 --> 00:15:12.240
But if he's the person that will go to Iran and create a democracy, just as long as you can criticize without being killed or flogged or lose your job or be shunned or have to go into exile, I'm all for it.
00:15:12.320 --> 00:15:12.879
I don't live there.
00:15:13.360 --> 00:15:14.559
Have you still got family in Iran?
00:15:14.799 --> 00:15:15.519
Oh gosh, yes.
00:15:15.600 --> 00:15:15.759
Yes.
00:15:16.000 --> 00:15:16.720
Do you talk to them yes?
00:15:16.960 --> 00:15:23.840
Yes, finally, after a because there was an internet blackout for months and months and months, and I knew my cousin's children are young.
00:15:24.000 --> 00:15:30.399
You know, they're in their late teens and twenties, so I knew they'd be out in the protests, and that was hell, not knowing how they all were.
00:15:30.559 --> 00:15:33.200
It was the most isolating thing.
00:15:33.519 --> 00:15:40.320
And, you know, that was really difficult because the left said nothing about the death of the protesters.
00:15:40.480 --> 00:15:40.879
Nothing.
00:15:41.039 --> 00:15:41.440
Nothing.
00:15:41.600 --> 00:15:43.039
Deafening silence.
00:15:43.440 --> 00:15:47.279
And then they were very vocal when America started bombing Iran.
00:15:47.360 --> 00:15:50.559
And it was a very uh difficult place to be as a left-winger.
00:15:50.799 --> 00:15:54.480
I'm very adrift politically at the moment.
00:15:54.720 --> 00:16:01.600
But then in other ways it really grows my awareness in that I think, gosh, when have I had blind spots?
00:16:02.080 --> 00:16:08.000
When have I not spoken up for people because it doesn't align with my bigger picture values?
00:16:08.240 --> 00:16:18.559
You know, I think the way around all of this stuff for me is just looking at myself and my reactions to it and where I've been ignorant, where I've lacked awareness, where I've lacked empathy.
00:16:18.720 --> 00:16:19.919
Because empathy is a job.
00:16:20.080 --> 00:16:23.840
If you ever spend time with a toddler, they don't always have natural empathy.
00:16:24.080 --> 00:16:27.759
So empathy is something as humans we have to really go and find in ourselves.
00:16:27.919 --> 00:16:31.759
Because all humans are capable of dehumanising other humans.
00:16:32.159 --> 00:16:35.759
And we have to be aware that none of us are immune to that.
00:16:35.840 --> 00:16:36.480
None of us.
00:16:37.360 --> 00:16:38.639
Thank you very much for listening.
00:16:39.200 --> 00:16:41.120
Oh, Belgium's going wild about that.
00:16:41.360 --> 00:16:45.519
I think um Belgium can be a very, very complicated place.
00:16:46.080 --> 00:16:47.840
Complicated, but largely flat.
00:16:48.240 --> 00:16:50.000
One last question about Iran.
00:16:51.200 --> 00:16:59.360
Because I haven't had the opportunity to ask anybody as closely connected as you are who knows what the answer is going to be.
00:16:59.840 --> 00:17:10.000
What do you think the Iranian people thought what went through their heads when Trump said we have your backs?
00:17:11.039 --> 00:17:25.359
You said that with such certainty that I will know the answer, but I can only speak for myself and I can speak for to an extent for my family in Iran that I've just been speaking to.
00:17:25.680 --> 00:17:37.359
I can tell you that when they were slaughtering the protesters, it was so demanding, it has left an indelible mark of agony on all of us.
00:17:38.000 --> 00:17:41.680
We were like, please save them.
00:17:41.920 --> 00:17:42.880
There was that.
00:17:43.279 --> 00:17:45.759
And then it hasn't happened.
00:17:45.839 --> 00:17:47.920
So now it's very different, the feeling.
00:17:48.799 --> 00:17:57.759
I honestly thought in my naivety that America would go in, it will be short and sweet, and Reza Palevi would be there.
00:17:58.000 --> 00:17:59.440
And then that didn't happen.
00:17:59.599 --> 00:18:03.920
So I and they, more than me, feel between a rock and a hard place now.
00:18:04.079 --> 00:18:04.240
Right.
00:18:04.480 --> 00:18:10.400
Because now all the factories have been bombed, people don't have jobs now because they can't work in the factories.
00:18:10.480 --> 00:18:13.759
So people are suffering extreme economic hardship.
00:18:14.000 --> 00:18:18.480
There's rubble and wreckage and death all around now, and no change in sight.
00:18:18.640 --> 00:18:19.599
So there we are.
00:18:19.920 --> 00:18:21.440
But in that moment, yeah.
00:18:21.759 --> 00:18:31.920
After the protesters, while the protesters are being killed, what choice do we have but go, yes, someone have our backs, because Lord knows the left here don't.
00:18:32.079 --> 00:18:33.359
So yeah, it's really difficult.
00:18:33.440 --> 00:18:36.720
It's difficult to talk about without feeling emotional.
00:18:36.880 --> 00:18:40.400
Well, no, no, I feel emotional without sort of screaming.
00:18:40.640 --> 00:18:41.920
Yeah, it's really hard.
00:18:42.079 --> 00:18:43.680
It's been a very, very hard time.
00:18:43.839 --> 00:18:45.279
It is a really hard time.
00:18:45.519 --> 00:18:49.039
And the fact that there's no end in sight, it's pretty sad.
00:18:49.680 --> 00:18:50.319
Isn't it?
00:18:50.480 --> 00:18:50.880
Hmm.
00:18:51.440 --> 00:18:54.960
I'm now gonna do a rather p ridiculous gear change.
00:18:55.440 --> 00:18:56.799
I love ridiculous gear changes.
00:18:57.039 --> 00:19:04.319
And and I want to ask you about the some would say equally serious subject of stand-up.
00:19:05.039 --> 00:19:05.440
Yes.
00:19:06.000 --> 00:19:10.319
Because I'm a bit confused.
00:19:10.559 --> 00:19:11.920
I don't know, that's completely the wrong word.
00:19:12.079 --> 00:19:13.279
Ignorant is a better word.
00:19:13.759 --> 00:19:23.200
About you decided to go into stand-up, not least because at that time it was so male dominated.
00:19:23.440 --> 00:19:28.400
I mean, so I'm like I don't know, 98% of acts on the circuit were male.
00:19:28.640 --> 00:19:28.799
Yeah.
00:19:29.200 --> 00:19:37.359
So why did you, brackets from your background though that might not be relevant, close brackets, say, I'm gonna go onto a stage and make people laugh?
00:19:37.920 --> 00:19:41.519
Well, Doctor, it was my absolute dream.
00:19:41.839 --> 00:19:45.599
I felt like an outsider who wouldn't Who are these people that feel like insiders?
00:19:45.759 --> 00:19:46.720
That's what I'd like to know.
00:19:47.119 --> 00:19:48.000
Well, I've met a number of them.
00:19:48.160 --> 00:19:49.920
In fact, you dropped somebody's name earlier on.
00:19:50.079 --> 00:19:56.160
Alistair Campbell would consider himself I mean, okay, so maybe psychologically he won't always have thought that actually.
00:19:56.480 --> 00:19:56.640
Yeah.
00:19:57.039 --> 00:20:01.119
But knows beyond doubt that he is an insider.
00:20:01.519 --> 00:20:03.440
And walk into a room and yeah.
00:20:03.680 --> 00:20:04.000
Yeah.
00:20:04.319 --> 00:20:06.880
So I had a lot of confusion as a kid.
00:20:06.960 --> 00:20:08.559
Like my home life was so different.
00:20:08.640 --> 00:20:12.319
Like my dad was this big famous poet outside of school.
00:20:12.480 --> 00:20:15.359
I was like a Nepo baby, but without portfolio.
00:20:15.519 --> 00:20:21.599
And then in school, I was like, you know, little brown kid, and there's, you know, racism's rubbish, isn't it?
00:20:21.839 --> 00:20:23.599
And all of that kind of stuff.
00:20:23.839 --> 00:20:32.480
And then I watched Saturday Night Live, Ben Elton, Ritmail, and I'd loved like any kind of comedy on telly.
00:20:32.720 --> 00:20:39.200
Didn't really get the jokes of the old sort of more traditional comics, but the fact they were standing on a stage, I absolutely love Billy Connolly.
00:20:39.279 --> 00:20:40.880
I think he was probably my first love.
00:20:41.279 --> 00:20:49.759
But Saturday Night Live, that lot, because they were young, because they spoke in my language.
00:20:50.079 --> 00:20:54.559
I desperately wanted to be part of that world that they lived in.
00:20:54.720 --> 00:20:57.359
And I imagine it was the same with punk.
00:20:57.599 --> 00:20:59.680
Because comedy's not punk now.
00:20:59.920 --> 00:21:02.799
It's not underground like it was back in the 80s.
00:21:02.960 --> 00:21:05.759
I mean, it can't be because it's become so mainstream.
00:21:05.839 --> 00:21:10.000
And back then you could be poor and live in London.
00:21:10.160 --> 00:21:13.440
Um there were squats to live in, there was housing benefit.
00:21:13.599 --> 00:21:16.799
So you've got a lot of broken souls on the comedy circuit, which I love.
00:21:16.960 --> 00:21:27.200
But now people are so much more together, the young comics that I've met, and they're brilliant, but they're a different texture to the ones that I came up with.
00:21:27.359 --> 00:21:32.400
But I've got to say, that thing about being a woman, it was so hard.
00:21:32.880 --> 00:21:34.960
But at the time, I didn't think about it.
00:21:35.039 --> 00:21:36.319
I just plowed on.
00:21:36.480 --> 00:21:38.160
Who could I talk to?
00:21:38.480 --> 00:21:40.400
There was no one to talk to.
00:21:44.720 --> 00:21:50.640
The shutting up, don't get me wrong, there were also incredible, wonderful, supportive people there, of course.
00:21:50.720 --> 00:21:52.240
Otherwise, I wouldn't have survived.
00:21:52.480 --> 00:22:03.200
But when I walk into like comedy parties now and I see all the women and they're all on what WhatsApp groups and they're all supportive and they have friends.
00:22:03.279 --> 00:22:04.480
I didn't have friends.
00:22:05.119 --> 00:22:06.400
I had no friends.
00:22:06.799 --> 00:22:10.480
Isn't that sort of part of the comedian stereotype, isn't it?
00:22:10.799 --> 00:22:13.599
Not to have any friends, to live in a garret and I don't know.
00:22:13.839 --> 00:22:21.359
I was reading Harry Hill's autobiography, and he talked about these incredible friendships that he made in comedy and they all came up together.
00:22:21.440 --> 00:22:25.039
And I was reading another autobiography today and the friendships.
00:22:25.279 --> 00:22:27.759
And I think, but they were all blokes.
00:22:27.920 --> 00:22:31.039
They were all these like big beery blokes when I did it.
00:22:31.200 --> 00:22:35.599
And I was 24 and there was no friendship to be had.
00:22:36.079 --> 00:22:37.440
Harry wasn't beery.
00:22:37.839 --> 00:22:39.519
Oh, but he was way ahead of me.
00:22:39.599 --> 00:22:41.440
I'd I never worked the clubs with Harry Hill.
00:22:41.680 --> 00:22:41.839
Okay.
00:22:42.000 --> 00:22:44.240
And then you know, it's me as well.
00:22:44.400 --> 00:22:46.160
I couldn't say boo to a goose.
00:22:46.400 --> 00:22:49.359
I was socially so behind myself.
00:22:49.839 --> 00:23:01.440
That for me is the most interesting thing because you couldn't say boo to a goose and you go out and do one of the things which most people would find among the most frightening things they can possibly imagine.
00:23:01.680 --> 00:23:02.720
That's the odd thing.
00:23:03.200 --> 00:23:07.119
Well, that's like people who are scared of heights becoming bass jumpers.
00:23:07.359 --> 00:23:14.880
I think stand-up comedy, obviously, when you do long form and you're doing your own shows, there's a real craft to it.
00:23:15.119 --> 00:23:20.000
But back in the boozy club days, it was like doing a bungee jump.
00:23:20.319 --> 00:23:23.519
I think it was much closer to extreme sports.
00:23:23.920 --> 00:23:26.720
Do you remember any of your early material?
00:23:27.039 --> 00:23:27.920
Oh, absolutely.
00:23:28.160 --> 00:23:29.440
My name's Shappy.
00:23:29.519 --> 00:23:30.960
It rhymes with crappy.
00:23:31.200 --> 00:23:32.799
So I had a great time at school.
00:23:32.960 --> 00:23:33.680
I mean, that was it.
00:23:33.759 --> 00:23:36.000
I mean, arguably that I mean, come on.
00:23:36.319 --> 00:23:38.559
I think some of the booings were deserved.
00:23:38.960 --> 00:23:40.720
It was an adrenalinine hit.
00:23:40.880 --> 00:23:48.160
It was when I felt alive and I felt seen and it was a second chance of the playground and I wanted to be famous.
00:23:48.559 --> 00:23:49.759
And that's really sad.
00:23:49.839 --> 00:23:50.640
Isn't that sad?
00:23:50.880 --> 00:23:54.400
Because neither of my children have any desire to be famous.
00:23:54.559 --> 00:23:58.000
And when I talked to my son about it, because I said, You're so funny.
00:23:58.079 --> 00:24:00.319
You could be a writer, you could be an amazing comic.
00:24:00.400 --> 00:24:04.079
And he went, No, because I like myself.
00:24:06.000 --> 00:24:06.400
Wow.
00:24:06.559 --> 00:24:09.279
You have to wonder what else he's picked up over the years.
00:24:09.599 --> 00:24:10.000
Yeah.
00:24:10.240 --> 00:24:16.559
And it's interesting because once I got my ADHD diagnosis and once I started a journey of healing.
00:24:16.799 --> 00:24:22.079
It's very difficult to say that when you're British, to say two words, journey and healing.
00:24:22.400 --> 00:24:24.400
My journey of healing.
00:24:24.640 --> 00:24:29.359
Because we're still quite bashful about not being American.
00:24:29.759 --> 00:24:34.720
Or not being full of anxiety and self-hate and trying to rid ourselves of that.
00:24:34.960 --> 00:24:40.799
That whole desire to be famous, I understand it now, and it doesn't exist anymore.
00:24:41.440 --> 00:24:43.200
You mean you don't have it anymore?
00:24:43.599 --> 00:24:44.079
I don't have it anymore.
00:24:44.319 --> 00:24:45.519
Because it exists all around us.
00:24:45.839 --> 00:24:46.079
Oh yeah.
00:24:46.480 --> 00:24:47.519
Oh of course it exists.
00:24:47.680 --> 00:24:48.880
Oh my goodness, yeah.
00:24:49.119 --> 00:24:50.640
But for me, it doesn't.
00:24:50.799 --> 00:25:10.880
And I think had I got help much, much earlier for my ADHD and anxiety and all of that, I think I would have been a massive fan of stand-up comedy, but perhaps done something else that really nourished my soul, but didn't involve all the travelling, all the booze.
00:25:11.359 --> 00:25:14.319
You say that, but it would have been such a loss to the world of comedy.
00:25:14.720 --> 00:25:15.279
You don't know that.
00:25:15.359 --> 00:25:18.079
I might have found a cure for hay fever.
00:25:18.480 --> 00:25:18.720
What?
00:25:20.000 --> 00:25:21.839
Given a choice, that would have been time better spent.
00:25:21.920 --> 00:25:22.880
I think.
00:25:23.039 --> 00:25:24.400
No, no, no, I'm with you completely.
00:25:24.799 --> 00:25:28.799
I was talking to on another podcast actually recently.
00:25:29.279 --> 00:25:32.319
About stereotypes in comedy.
00:25:32.799 --> 00:25:34.559
I think this bit was cut, by the way.
00:25:34.720 --> 00:25:37.359
I think he found my comments too far.
00:25:37.839 --> 00:25:43.279
But I was trying to argue, because I believe it, that we need stereotypes.
00:25:43.359 --> 00:25:45.119
I mean comedy needs stereotypes.
00:25:45.200 --> 00:25:46.640
It trades off stereotypes.
00:25:46.720 --> 00:25:48.799
That's how we kind of recognize one another.
00:25:49.279 --> 00:25:55.440
And it's not about ban all stereotypes, it's about understanding what is and what isn't acceptable.
00:25:56.960 --> 00:26:02.480
When you're doing stand-up, you don't say, oh my god, that's a stereotype of X.
00:26:02.799 --> 00:26:06.480
I mustn't say that because it suggests they're all like that.
00:26:07.039 --> 00:26:13.440
I think we all have our own personal boundaries around that kind of thing, according to our values.
00:26:13.519 --> 00:26:15.359
But no, I'm just thinking about what you said.
00:26:15.440 --> 00:26:16.799
And yeah, I think you're right.
00:26:16.880 --> 00:26:32.240
And there's some comics that probably regard themselves as very on point with their political correctness, but we'll massively stereotype someone out on the reform marches in a really negative way as a figure of fun.
00:26:32.480 --> 00:26:39.839
And I remember watching someone do that recently, and I thought to myself, there's a lot more there to explore.
00:26:40.240 --> 00:26:41.200
Do you know what I mean?
00:26:41.279 --> 00:27:01.920
Like there's a lot more there because those marches are so huge now, and voting for reform or saying that certain opinions about reform are so normalized now that instead of stereotyping them, I think it's much more interesting to have a curiosity about what's going on for those people, right?
00:27:02.240 --> 00:27:04.640
And yeah, so they are now stereotyped.
00:27:04.720 --> 00:27:11.599
They are the ones stereotyped, but it's a stereotype that is palatable to us because they are punching down also.
00:27:11.759 --> 00:27:14.079
They are blaming immigrants for their woes.
00:27:14.480 --> 00:27:16.640
So yeah, that does happen, I guess.
00:27:16.799 --> 00:27:18.319
I'm just trying to think of my own.
00:27:18.559 --> 00:27:23.279
I said I I talk so much about myself, I don't think I've got time to stereotype anyone.
00:27:23.759 --> 00:27:24.240
All right then.
00:27:24.559 --> 00:27:26.079
I tried to sound really wise then.
00:27:26.240 --> 00:27:26.799
Did you notice?
00:27:26.960 --> 00:27:33.920
I don't know if it came across as wise, but I was mostly trying to grapple with what you were saying because I hadn't really considered it deeply before.
00:27:34.400 --> 00:27:35.440
I think it sounded wise.
00:27:35.519 --> 00:27:37.759
It's very difficult for me to say that without sounding patronized.
00:27:37.839 --> 00:27:39.599
So should we should we just both back off?
00:27:40.160 --> 00:27:41.039
I mean, don't get me wrong.
00:27:41.119 --> 00:27:56.960
Like I I'm not thing is, what people don't understand, a lot of the people a lot of comics that go, oh, you can't say this anymore, when they want to stereotype people of colour or they want to stereotype gay people, which as I I pause then because my younger friends don't say gay, they say queer.
00:27:57.200 --> 00:28:01.920
And that's still tricky for me because that used to be such a slur.
00:28:02.079 --> 00:28:06.960
But some people go, you can't say anything about gay people anymore, you can't say anything da-da-da, you can't say anything anymore.
00:28:07.200 --> 00:28:12.880
And I think they don't understand that stand-up comedy reflects culture.
00:28:13.039 --> 00:28:18.880
And it's not that you can't say it, you can, but no one finds it funny anymore because our culture's moved on.
00:28:19.039 --> 00:28:21.599
We've progressed, and it's a moving iceberg.
00:28:21.680 --> 00:28:27.519
So if you don't move with the times, Bobby Davre, people aren't gonna go with what you're saying.
00:28:27.839 --> 00:28:29.119
So I don't know why I picked him.
00:28:30.559 --> 00:28:31.440
What's he ever done to you?
00:28:32.079 --> 00:28:33.920
He told me you can't say this, you can't say that.
00:28:34.400 --> 00:28:35.200
Inocuous play.
00:28:35.359 --> 00:28:36.160
Some would argue.
00:28:36.400 --> 00:28:37.920
I think you've just made exactly the same.
00:28:38.400 --> 00:28:39.839
See, I stereotype Bobby Davre.
00:28:40.319 --> 00:28:40.720
A little bit.
00:28:40.880 --> 00:28:41.039
Yeah.
00:28:41.279 --> 00:28:42.880
I was stuck in an airport with him once.
00:28:42.960 --> 00:28:44.400
I have yeah, I mean, it doesn't matter.
00:28:44.480 --> 00:28:45.759
You can edit this out or leave it.
00:28:45.839 --> 00:28:46.880
You know, I don't care anymore.
00:28:47.039 --> 00:28:47.680
We're all gonna die.
00:28:48.000 --> 00:28:48.799
Well, Bobby might care.
00:28:48.960 --> 00:28:49.839
Does he live in Belgium?
00:28:50.160 --> 00:28:50.640
Not yet.
00:28:50.880 --> 00:28:51.039
Okay.
00:28:51.359 --> 00:28:52.880
That's where comics go to die.
00:28:53.119 --> 00:28:54.000
No, I won't go there.
00:28:54.400 --> 00:28:57.599
You know, knowing me, I've got the name wrong.
00:28:57.839 --> 00:29:00.640
And it wasn't even Bobby Davre that I was stuck in an airport with.
00:29:00.960 --> 00:29:02.160
It was Jimmy Bloody Cricket.
00:29:02.480 --> 00:29:03.599
It was someone else.
00:29:03.839 --> 00:29:04.079
Yes.
00:29:04.400 --> 00:29:06.400
I've got into a right muddle again.
00:29:06.799 --> 00:29:10.559
We'll be very diplomatic when his representatives make contact.
00:29:10.880 --> 00:29:11.039
Okay.
00:29:11.519 --> 00:29:15.279
And we'll, you know, we'll reach some kind of conclusion.
00:29:15.680 --> 00:29:21.039
Well, feeling as though it's what we've been doing for the last however long.
00:29:21.359 --> 00:29:24.559
It does feel like time to talk about psychotherapy.
00:29:24.960 --> 00:29:25.119
Okay.
00:29:25.440 --> 00:29:30.480
I've written all of my notes, I've written psycho, and I just remembered why I'd written psycho.
00:29:31.200 --> 00:29:32.559
So look, there you are.
00:29:32.799 --> 00:29:36.240
I don't know whether this coincides exactly, but it's probably more or less right.
00:29:36.400 --> 00:29:42.960
You're on I'm a celeb, with among other people, another of our Just Between Us guests, Ian Lee.
00:29:43.359 --> 00:29:43.920
Okay, yeah.
00:29:44.480 --> 00:29:48.400
Who has also decided to become a psychotherapist, which is kind of interesting.
00:29:48.799 --> 00:29:49.680
Interesting that, isn't it?
00:29:50.000 --> 00:29:52.079
Kind of interesting about I'm a celeb.
00:29:52.480 --> 00:29:52.880
But why?
00:29:53.279 --> 00:29:54.400
Oh gosh, right.
00:29:54.559 --> 00:29:59.279
There are lots of reasons I could give, and I've been thinking about this a lot.
00:29:59.839 --> 00:30:10.799
First thing, I will say I've always wanted to go back and do another degree with the head I have now, but I probably thought it would be in English or history or something.
00:30:11.200 --> 00:30:12.880
I loved seeing Eddie.
00:30:13.599 --> 00:30:15.279
Oh gosh, not Eddie is hard.
00:30:15.519 --> 00:30:19.519
Oh I love seeing Lenny Henry go back and and study.
00:30:22.240 --> 00:30:27.359
Um he went off and studied English.
00:30:27.759 --> 00:30:30.079
And I thought, oh, what an amazing thing to do.
00:30:30.240 --> 00:30:34.319
Like, oh god, I wish I was so rich that I could just go back to university and not worry about it.
00:30:34.480 --> 00:30:38.240
And then when I hit 50, I kind of thought, now or never.
00:30:38.480 --> 00:30:44.720
I had a therapist that changed my life and really supported me.
00:30:45.279 --> 00:30:53.759
And I did a a short course in psychotherapy, that all the different modalities, and I fell in love with gestalt psychotherapy.
00:30:54.079 --> 00:30:57.119
I have um aunt who's the same age as me.
00:30:57.279 --> 00:31:03.920
She trained as a psychotherapist, and I had found in the five years that she trained, I just wanted to ask her everything.
00:31:04.000 --> 00:31:06.160
I just found it really, really fascinating.
00:31:06.720 --> 00:31:12.240
But I think what it was for me, one of the things my aunt said to me was, it changes you.
00:31:12.480 --> 00:31:20.480
And I kept hearing this thing that if you train to be a psychotherapist, it's like having therapy on crack.
00:31:20.799 --> 00:31:25.359
Like you get turned inside out and you change as a person.
00:31:26.160 --> 00:31:27.839
And I wanted that.
00:31:28.319 --> 00:31:29.839
I really wanted that.
00:31:30.160 --> 00:31:34.000
And I have it, and I realize I don't change.
00:31:34.319 --> 00:31:39.200
You go back to the you before all the shit.
00:31:39.359 --> 00:31:49.680
You know, it's it's a really exciting process, and there's 14 people in my class, and we've been together for three years now, we've got two more years to go.
00:31:50.000 --> 00:31:51.119
Are they all stand-ups?
00:31:51.440 --> 00:31:52.480
All of them are stand-ups.
00:31:52.720 --> 00:32:24.240
It was weird when I went in, like I was so bashful about the fact that I'm a stand-up, and I realized that I had quite a lot of shame around it because everyone there is like a genius, and there's people that are in my class that already like PhDs and all of this, and actually working some stuff out and facing my worst fears in that group with everyone and having massive ruptures and then learning to repair them and learning to find safety in repairing ruptures.
00:32:24.400 --> 00:32:27.119
But I didn't know how to do that before that.
00:32:27.279 --> 00:32:28.880
I just had no idea.
00:32:28.960 --> 00:32:35.359
I used to flee, either flee or have catastrophe, but I'll never be bored of it.
00:32:35.440 --> 00:32:40.559
It's like it's the only thing apart from stand-up that I have found that I will never tire of.
00:32:40.720 --> 00:32:44.960
And I realized that the reason is the common denominator is is they're both about people.
00:32:45.039 --> 00:32:47.440
They're both about a curiosity of other people.
00:32:47.759 --> 00:32:49.359
That's what stand-up is.
00:32:49.519 --> 00:32:57.519
It gives the illusion of being very self-obsessed, but that self-obsession is in contact with other people.
00:32:58.079 --> 00:33:08.160
So I think it's the same curiosity, but with psychotherapy, it's on a deeper level, like so deep.
00:33:08.480 --> 00:33:11.119
The connection that you make is so deep.
00:33:11.599 --> 00:33:18.319
And when you're just talking to anybody, when you're having a casual conversation, you know, in the back of a cab or anywhere.
00:33:18.799 --> 00:33:22.480
Do you now think differently to how you used to think?
00:33:22.880 --> 00:33:29.839
So are you effectively psychoanalysing everybody and everybody's reaction to every question?
00:33:30.400 --> 00:33:33.039
I am, but not theirs, my own.
00:33:33.519 --> 00:33:34.640
So that's what I've noticed.
00:33:34.720 --> 00:33:37.440
I go, oh, that makes me feel like this.
00:33:37.839 --> 00:33:40.640
How do I feel right now with what this person's saying?
00:33:40.880 --> 00:33:44.640
What impact is it having on me and really noticing my own feelings?
00:33:45.279 --> 00:33:46.720
Can you switch that off?
00:33:47.119 --> 00:33:55.599
Well, it's a practice, and I think it's something that anyone who has had therapy can relate to this.
00:33:55.759 --> 00:34:18.480
If you've had like a strong therapeutic relationship with someone, hopefully, if it's gone as it should, everyone gets to a point where you notice your reactions to things and you're able to regulate yourself in the moment in a way that was really difficult in in the first place, which is what often leads people to therapy.
00:34:18.719 --> 00:34:20.400
I don't take things personally.
00:34:20.559 --> 00:34:24.320
I think that's the biggest change, is I don't take things personally.
00:34:24.639 --> 00:34:34.159
Socially, it's been so different because I used to be very sensitive, I used to be very hurt, I used to be quite reactive.
00:34:35.039 --> 00:34:36.400
And now I'm not.
00:34:36.559 --> 00:34:42.239
And now if people have dicks, I just walk away instead of going out with them.
00:34:45.760 --> 00:34:49.920
I no longer sleep with people who aren't nice to me.
00:34:50.639 --> 00:34:53.679
You see, and you should have listened to whoever told you that in the first place.
00:34:54.000 --> 00:34:55.679
Do you call them patients or clients?
00:34:56.000 --> 00:34:56.320
Clients.
00:34:56.639 --> 00:35:00.320
Who do you think your perfect client is gonna be?
00:35:00.639 --> 00:35:04.800
Who are you really looking forward to charging to giving them therapy?
00:35:05.119 --> 00:35:06.079
I already have clients.
00:35:06.320 --> 00:35:06.719
Oh, okay.
00:35:06.880 --> 00:35:08.480
Yeah, and they're all my perfect clients.
00:35:08.880 --> 00:35:15.440
Do you do what Ruby does and have them round to your house and No, Ruby does something very different and very brilliant and interesting.
00:35:15.519 --> 00:35:17.360
I'm slightly obsessed with Ruby.
00:35:17.760 --> 00:35:19.039
She was another inspiration.
00:35:19.199 --> 00:35:22.079
I used to go to the Priory Clinic.
00:35:22.320 --> 00:35:24.480
I used to live right next door to it, actually.
00:35:24.800 --> 00:35:27.440
And I used to go there for my 12-step group.
00:35:27.679 --> 00:35:30.800
And I saw all these posters like Ruby Wax doing a gig there.
00:35:31.280 --> 00:35:32.639
This is years ago.
00:35:32.880 --> 00:35:43.519
And I think that's where it started to sort of start to percolate that you can leave not leave this profession, but it can be in tandem with another passion.
00:35:44.079 --> 00:35:45.199
You know, for me was that.
00:35:45.280 --> 00:35:47.360
And I was so fascinated.
00:35:47.679 --> 00:35:54.480
I don't think I would ever get rid of enough dog hairs in my house to actually have people over.
00:35:54.800 --> 00:35:59.039
And Ruby, I don't think she does one-to-one psychotherapy.
00:35:59.199 --> 00:36:00.320
That's what I'm really into.
00:36:00.639 --> 00:36:02.639
Okay, so your ideal client?
00:36:03.039 --> 00:36:08.239
My ideal client is um someone who turns up week after week.
00:36:08.559 --> 00:36:08.880
Yeah.
00:36:09.199 --> 00:36:09.519
Yeah.
00:36:09.760 --> 00:36:14.880
And if they don't turn up, they let me know within 48 hours.
00:36:16.400 --> 00:36:19.119
I don't get paid yet, I hasten to add.
00:36:19.280 --> 00:36:24.719
So when what you do as a trainee is that you work in a placement, so the placement is normally a charity.
00:36:24.960 --> 00:36:26.880
This is very important for people to know.
00:36:27.119 --> 00:36:30.000
So many people say I can't get therapy, it's too expensive.
00:36:30.159 --> 00:36:46.559
It is expensive, but there are certain charities like Mind, let's start with Mind, some aspects of the NHS, where they take on trainees, the way Vidal Sassoon takes on trainees, and you go for an eight-pound haircut that would normally cost you£100, whatever.
00:36:46.719 --> 00:36:55.760
So you might pay five, ten, twelve pounds an hour for a therapist, and that money goes to the charity, the therapist doesn't get paid.
00:36:55.840 --> 00:37:03.280
And I tell you, I would trust my nearest and dearest with any of my colleagues in my class, my cohort.
00:37:03.519 --> 00:37:08.639
Because when you're a trainee, I've got two supervisors, we write essays on what we're doing.
00:37:08.960 --> 00:37:12.320
We do not muck around with the theory, we are in it.
00:37:12.559 --> 00:37:14.320
We listen back to every session.
00:37:14.400 --> 00:37:16.320
With permission, we record them.
00:37:16.559 --> 00:37:23.119
And with a trainee, you're with someone who really wants to learn and will leave no stone unturned.
00:37:23.440 --> 00:37:34.320
So if anyone listening thinks they can't afford therapy, I would strongly suggest going to look at placements where they have trainees.
00:37:34.400 --> 00:37:36.639
Aaron Ross Powell I think that's really interesting advice.
00:37:36.960 --> 00:37:38.320
I'm thinking of going back to therapy.
00:37:38.400 --> 00:37:40.159
It's a long time since I've had any.
00:37:40.960 --> 00:37:43.599
I used to say that I only went because he needed money.
00:37:44.400 --> 00:37:45.840
Well you know what I tell people it's like?
00:37:46.000 --> 00:37:49.840
It's um I was talking to this guy and he was quite buff.
00:37:50.159 --> 00:37:52.639
And he was like, Well, what do you think I need therapy?
00:37:52.800 --> 00:37:54.320
And I said, Well, look, do you go to the gym?
00:37:54.480 --> 00:37:55.760
He goes, Oh yeah, I'll go to the gym.
00:37:55.920 --> 00:37:58.480
I was like, okay, it's it's the gym for your emotions.
00:37:58.639 --> 00:37:59.360
That's it.
00:37:59.599 --> 00:38:01.679
It's not like anything more than that.
00:38:01.840 --> 00:38:10.000
No matter how much you don't want to go to the gym, even if you feel shit after your session, you know it's doing you good, right?
00:38:10.320 --> 00:38:12.400
So that's what it's like with therapy.
00:38:12.559 --> 00:38:14.880
You've got to walk through the pain barrier.
00:38:15.519 --> 00:38:18.960
Well, given a choice between gym and therapy, I know which I choose.
00:38:19.360 --> 00:38:21.280
You should go to the gym with your therapist.
00:38:21.519 --> 00:38:22.639
I bet they do that in America.
00:38:23.039 --> 00:38:23.679
Yeah, I bet they do.
00:38:24.000 --> 00:38:29.199
Look, we have to round this up, which is such a great shame, because I actually want to carry on talking to you for a long time.
00:38:29.760 --> 00:38:36.320
I have this annoying habit sometimes of ending up with quick fire questions.
00:38:37.119 --> 00:38:37.519
Oh yeah.
00:38:38.320 --> 00:38:39.679
Which are kind of one-word answers.
00:38:40.000 --> 00:38:40.239
Yes.
00:38:41.280 --> 00:38:43.280
So oh first one's so easy.
00:38:43.519 --> 00:38:44.000
So easy.
00:38:44.480 --> 00:38:45.360
Ten sixty-six.
00:38:46.159 --> 00:38:48.480
Actually, you're just the year out, but I'll let you have it.
00:38:48.880 --> 00:38:50.960
Who or what makes you laugh?
00:38:52.159 --> 00:38:52.960
Everything.
00:38:53.920 --> 00:38:55.440
Pretty much everything makes me laugh.
00:38:55.679 --> 00:38:55.840
Okay.
00:38:56.559 --> 00:38:59.920
What's your biggest vice?
00:39:00.639 --> 00:39:06.400
Binge eating I was gonna say binge eating biscuits, but actually it could be nectarines.
00:39:06.800 --> 00:39:08.639
Yeah, I'd say that's a vice.
00:39:09.119 --> 00:39:09.840
Or an addiction.
00:39:10.079 --> 00:39:11.519
Addiction's a vice, isn't it?
00:39:11.840 --> 00:39:12.719
So it can be.
00:39:12.880 --> 00:39:16.800
That's something to ask your your group if they might have an interesting idea.
00:39:18.079 --> 00:39:19.360
Yeah, it is something I struggle with, yeah.
00:39:19.679 --> 00:39:25.840
Do you know what I a big vice of mine is buying nonsense late at night when I can't sleep.
00:39:26.159 --> 00:39:27.119
Oh, been there, done it.
00:39:27.360 --> 00:39:27.920
Pink sofa.
00:39:28.079 --> 00:39:34.880
Well, not pink sofa, but I've actually my two favourite late night, middle of the night can't sleep purchases.
00:39:35.199 --> 00:39:37.760
They have something very odd in common.
00:39:38.400 --> 00:39:42.159
One is a thing for a pizza oven.
00:39:42.719 --> 00:39:43.519
Oh right, yeah.
00:39:44.079 --> 00:39:49.760
Which when I got it, I realized that I didn't actually have enough space between the oven and the island thing to use it.
00:39:50.079 --> 00:39:51.440
But I've since had it chopped down.
00:39:52.079 --> 00:39:54.079
And the other this is the weird thing.
00:39:54.960 --> 00:39:55.440
Doctor.
00:39:56.000 --> 00:39:59.360
The other is a snow shovel.
00:40:00.400 --> 00:40:01.840
Because we need that in this country.
00:40:02.239 --> 00:40:02.480
Exactly.
00:40:03.760 --> 00:40:05.440
So I mean What made you buy that?
00:40:05.679 --> 00:40:06.000
I don't know.
00:40:06.159 --> 00:40:06.559
I don't know.
00:40:06.719 --> 00:40:10.480
Maybe it was a price thing, maybe it was a sweeping and cleaning thing.
00:40:11.119 --> 00:40:16.719
But you're you're talking to somebody who has a very unusual reason for always getting excited when it snows.
00:40:16.960 --> 00:40:17.119
Yeah.
00:40:17.440 --> 00:40:18.719
Because I'm bloody prepared.
00:40:19.199 --> 00:40:20.880
Talking of which, my last question to you.
00:40:21.039 --> 00:40:21.199
Yes.
00:40:21.519 --> 00:40:23.840
I will get criticism for this.
00:40:24.159 --> 00:40:27.119
Arguably it's a bit sort of self-indulgent.
00:40:27.440 --> 00:40:29.119
Can you find me a wife?
00:40:31.119 --> 00:40:33.679
I can't find myself a wife, let alone you.
00:40:34.000 --> 00:40:38.079
I say it because you and I had this conversation a long time ago.
00:40:38.480 --> 00:40:39.199
A long time ago.
00:40:39.360 --> 00:40:42.880
Tell you what, you find me a husband, I'll find your wife.
00:40:43.199 --> 00:40:45.199
But I have to be very specific about my husband.
00:40:45.519 --> 00:40:46.480
You think I don't?
00:40:49.199 --> 00:40:50.320
I'll find you a wife.
00:40:50.480 --> 00:40:51.599
It's tricky, isn't it?
00:40:51.760 --> 00:40:52.480
What do you like?
00:40:52.639 --> 00:40:53.360
What do you need?
00:40:53.440 --> 00:40:54.719
What do you know what your needs are?
00:40:55.039 --> 00:40:56.480
Unfortunately, our listeners have lives.
00:40:56.800 --> 00:40:57.599
They do have lives too.
00:40:58.559 --> 00:41:01.119
So shall we come back to this off-air, as it were?
00:41:01.440 --> 00:41:03.840
Can I ask you a question for you to ask me?
00:41:04.159 --> 00:41:04.400
Yeah.
00:41:04.639 --> 00:41:07.920
Can you ask me, Shapy, when are you going to write a play?
00:41:08.239 --> 00:41:08.960
Oh yes.
00:41:09.280 --> 00:41:09.599
Okay.
00:41:10.320 --> 00:41:11.440
Just out of the blue.
00:41:11.760 --> 00:41:12.000
Yeah.
00:41:12.320 --> 00:41:12.480
Yeah.
00:41:12.639 --> 00:41:12.719
Okay.
00:41:13.119 --> 00:41:16.079
Actually, there's one question I desperately wanted to ask you, Shappy.
00:41:16.159 --> 00:41:17.519
I'm so pleased I've just remembered.
00:41:17.760 --> 00:41:17.920
Yeah.
00:41:18.400 --> 00:41:19.760
When are you going to write a play?
00:41:20.159 --> 00:41:21.360
Funny she say that.
00:41:21.519 --> 00:41:24.000
I'm um I'm currently writing my first play.
00:41:24.320 --> 00:41:24.480
No.
00:41:24.719 --> 00:41:25.039
Yes.
00:41:25.199 --> 00:41:28.320
And I'm taking it to the Edinburgh Festival this August.
00:41:28.480 --> 00:41:29.760
And it's called Kismet.
00:41:30.320 --> 00:41:31.360
But you're still writing it.
00:41:31.679 --> 00:41:32.159
Yes, I know.
00:41:32.320 --> 00:41:32.719
There we are.
00:41:32.880 --> 00:41:33.679
That's my process.
00:41:33.920 --> 00:41:34.880
That's my process.
00:41:35.280 --> 00:41:36.559
That's Kismet, I guess.
00:41:36.800 --> 00:41:37.119
Yep.
00:41:37.440 --> 00:41:38.559
And where can people see it?
00:41:38.800 --> 00:41:45.760
They can see it at Summer Halls in Edinburgh, just by the meadows, between the 6th and the 16th of August.
00:41:45.840 --> 00:41:48.960
And I have to say it is a work in progress in Edinburgh, too.
00:41:49.280 --> 00:41:55.440
So I'm writing it now, and we will be performing it for the first time in Edinburgh and changing it every day as we go.
00:41:55.840 --> 00:41:56.079
Wow.
00:41:56.239 --> 00:41:59.199
And is it, as the title suggests, a musical?
00:41:59.840 --> 00:42:00.400
Yeah.
00:42:00.639 --> 00:42:01.440
No, it's not.
00:42:01.760 --> 00:42:06.880
Well, yes, it is, because the the person I'm that's a crucial thing to decide one way or the other and just go for it.
00:42:07.199 --> 00:42:09.199
The person I'm writing it with is a musician.
00:42:09.360 --> 00:42:09.440
Oh.
00:42:09.840 --> 00:42:11.440
And she is writing music for it.
00:42:11.519 --> 00:42:15.360
And she is my cousin, who is a performance artist in New York.
00:42:15.679 --> 00:42:20.960
And we are playing two sisters with a 20-year age gap who meet as adults.
00:42:21.199 --> 00:42:22.320
Because it's Kismet.
00:42:23.360 --> 00:42:23.840
There we are.
00:42:24.320 --> 00:42:25.280
Well, I'll be there.
00:42:25.599 --> 00:42:26.079
Thank you.
00:42:26.320 --> 00:42:27.679
You and half of Belgium.
00:42:28.400 --> 00:42:30.559
And well, yeah, maybe.
00:42:30.639 --> 00:42:31.360
You never know.
00:42:31.440 --> 00:42:33.039
And we'll sort out each other's.
00:42:33.440 --> 00:42:34.559
I don't think you want to wipe.
00:42:34.880 --> 00:42:35.679
I so do.
00:42:35.920 --> 00:42:37.119
Come on, music, please.
00:42:37.199 --> 00:42:39.039
Can we please have that bloody outro music?
00:42:39.199 --> 00:42:39.840
Start it.
00:42:40.159 --> 00:42:41.119
That was great.
00:42:41.360 --> 00:42:42.480
That was so fun.