Pt 2 Debate! Filioque, Protestant PSA, Lutherans, Papacy, Reformation Solas & More!

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The Church.
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So there's probably about thirty things that we don't believe
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the Roman Calviolcs officially believe.
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Okay, that that makes a lot of sense, I guess.
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One of my last question is is regarding idol worship.
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So in Islam, idol worship is prohibited, meaning that for example,
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for Prophet Muhammad, or or for.
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Any prophets like Prophet Jesus.
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Prophet Noah at all the ways starting from Adam, we're
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not you know, we're not allowed.
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To depict them in images.
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Or or or things of that nature.
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Are like movies and now in the modern.
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Era, So what does what is the Orthodox Christians position
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regarding seeing the visual depiction of Jesus Christ and other
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you know, prophets like Prophet Adam or Noah or is
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there any like strict prohibitions against that or uh, yeah,
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that was gonna be my last question.
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So the Orthodox Church does not believe in iconoclasm. Iconoclasm
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is the Protestant and Islamic view that all imagery is idolatry.
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We do agree that idols are wrong, but we do
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not believe that all images are idols. Is it possible
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to irreverently give honor to a image, a holy image. Yes,
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theoretically that's possible. But we do not out of hand
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believe that all imagery is idolatry. But we do believe
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that idolatry is a sin. It's part of the Ten
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Commandments and it's forbidden. But we believe, along with ancient
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Hebrew religion, that God has always been able to manifest
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in some form or in some way. If you read
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the Torah, which was the first five books of Moses,
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there are countless explications in that revelation about how God
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did want to be worshiped through legitimate imagery. The Orthodox
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Church inherited that tradition of out of the synagogue and
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temple system of the Jews having legitimate imagery. So we
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do believe in icons, and we do revere them, and
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we think that they're an implication of the incarnation of Christ,
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who we believe is the son of God. So we
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do believe in icons and images. If you want a documentary,
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my friend made a documentary on the Jewish Old Testament
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continuity with Orthodox Christian worship. It's called Christian Worship and
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the Old Testament, and it actually deals with as you
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can see here, synagogues in the first and second century
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that have imagery all over the walls. They look just
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like Orthodox churches. So we believe that Orthodox Christianity is
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the fulfillment of Judaism. So we do not believe in iconoclasm.
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Perfect, thank you. Sure.
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Also, idolatry, to be clear, is not just an external
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action of imaging something, although it may manifest in that way.
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And so, for example, in the Orthodox tradition, there's a
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lot of strictures on what icons can depict, and how
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they can depict, and what they can't depict. And this
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is actually another area where we disagree with Roman Catholics.
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We have very strict rules about how you can't make
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up icons or doing them anyway you want. There's a
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lot of traditional rules that bind you. You're not really
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supposed to technically do images of God. The Father Christ
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is the only legitimate icon or image of the Father.
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There's one exclusion to that, which is the Ancient of
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Days from Daniel seven. But even the Ancient of Days
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is an image of the Father pictured as Christ, and
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so he has Christic imagery. And that's because Jesus is
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No one has seen the Father at any time, and
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anybody who sees the Son has seen the Father. So
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that's why the Ancient of Days includes chrystological imagery, and
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it's not an old dude with the beard separate from
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or next to Christ. That's technically not what you're supposed
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to do. Now, there have been instances where churches and
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people in the history of Orthodoxy have done this and
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it has been tolerated. There are some monasteries and there's
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some churches that have these famously, but they're technically not
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supposed to be done, and even though they're tolerated, it's
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really not the norm. So that's enough on that topic.
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But that's actually come up quite a bit this week.
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Actually.
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Okay, great questions there. I think this is the first
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time we had a Muslim ask questions and it wasn't
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a debate. That was interesting. You are able to ask questions,
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but I'm actually looking for people who disagree. So if
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you disagree, feel free to raise your hand. We've still
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got We actually got more people now than we did earlier.
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We got fifteen fourteen people. If you disagree, hold up
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the little what do you call it, emoji or whatever?
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Anyone disagree, Okay, we'll go to you. Maddie what's up man,
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Thank you guys for the super chest. I'll read those
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just in a second. Oh, I was gonna say. Idolatry
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is also not just an external thing for us. Hold
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on just one second. Idolatry is also first and foremost
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something that comes from the mind and from the heart. So,
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in other words, if I spend my life trying to
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get money, you know, if my life revolves around greed,
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money is an idol, even though I don't have a
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visible picture of the dollar sign that I'm bowing to.
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So idolatry first and foremost comes out of the heart.
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If you remember Jesus says, it's not the things that
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go in the mouth that make you unclean. It's the
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things that proceed out of the heart, evil words, et cetera,
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that comes out of the heart. So again, the Ancient
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of Days. Hold on one second, Mattie. Just read the
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Lawsky Alspenske book on Icons, Volume two deals with the
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whole Moscow Icon Councils and the Ancient of Days. And
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if you believe that the Ancient of Days is the
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two natures of Christ, that's actually a problem because you
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can't even an imagery separate the natures of Christ. So
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it's very problematic to interpret it as two different natures
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of Christ. I think it's weird to interpret it as
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Christ in one state of humiliation, as man and as incarnation,
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and then Christ triumphant. Everybody's divorcing the Daniel seven texts
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from Revelation, and this is what I don't see anybody
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talking about. The text in Daniel seven. It's talking about
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the ascension of the Son of Man coming in a cloud,
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which is exactly what X one says. And then when
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you read the Book of Revelation, when the Sun ascends,
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and when John sees into heaven and sees the sun
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ascending and going and getting the scrolls and being given dominion,
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power and authority over were all nations, tribes, and tongues.
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Many people, I believe wrongly push that to the end
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of the world. It's not the end of the world.
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It's the ascension. Christ has given those things inner nature
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in the ascension to sit at the right hand of
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the Father. Does Jesus sit at the right hand of
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the Father at the end of the world or in
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the ascension? Every time Psalm one ten has cited in
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the New Testament, and this is crucial for refuting premillennialism
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and dispensationalism. It's his ascension. But this means that Daniel
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seven is talking about then, and Revelation is talking about
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then the Son being given authority, power, dominion, et setter
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up by the Father. And I think that's true. I
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don't see how it's not the Father. Now does that
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mean that you can be creative and start imaging the Father.
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No.
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Hence, the Ancient of Day's images that do exist look
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like Christ. But it's Christ under the image of Revelation
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ie where he has white hair and so forth, and
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he's on a and Ezekiel one to ten where he
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appears with white hair and all this stuff. So this
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is the glorified Christ or the preincarnate Christ, same Christ, right,
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But the Ancient of Days has to be imaged. And
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I pull up at this on Twitter Day, it was like,
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it's the Ancient of days that you notice. It's it
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looks like Jesus from the visions of Ezekiel one in
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Revelation one. Now beyond that, you're not supposed to really
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image the Father. That's about it. So you'll notice here
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in this Ancient of Day's image the Son, this looks
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like the son with white hair, because the presentation in
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Daniel seven of the Ancient of Days, even if it's
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the father, it has to look like the son, because
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the son is the only legitimate icon and image of
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the Father. Now the reason one side note before we
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go to you, Maddie, just to address all of this.
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So like these these icons like this, even though they're
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tolerated in some places, the theology that the Moscow Icon
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Council has to reject these is because they're theologically inaccurate.
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And I'm not saying everybody's a heretic that does this,
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because there's plenty of good people that don't know all this.
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It's it's just that, first of all, the Father did
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not become incarnate. He doesn't have a form. The only
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form the Father has is the son. So to portray
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the son as an old man next to excuse me
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as the father as an old man next to the
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son is theologically wrong. And then the spirit in between
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them suggests philioque. So that one and what's called the
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paternity icon, let me find the paternity. They were rejected
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out in the Moscow Icon Synod because they suggest the
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illogical errors. That's why So the paternity icon, for example,
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suggests Philly Oakuay, and I think, yeah, here it is.
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So you'll notice in this one it gives the impression
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that the Holy Spirit is proceeding from the Father through
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the son, which sounds okay. But the son's birth as
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a child is confused with the eternal relation of the
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intatrinitarian generation of the son. So the problem is not
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just do the icon suggest Philly oak Way. And the
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reality is that if you read the loskow Spinsky book,
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they argue that the heaterdox icons like the New Testament
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Trinity and paternity and sonotha ron is another one, they
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suggest theological error and they were actually introduced by Jesuits
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into places like Kiev to literally convert Russians to Philly Oakuey.
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That's not the only reason. The other reason is the
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father doesn't have a form, he's not an old man.
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And the other reason is that it confuses economia with
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the innertrinitarian life. Now, how often do you have anyone
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exegeating icons on the basis of this theological nuance? And
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if you read the Moscow Icon Council, it's pretty profound.
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I mean it's great. Now, it doesn't mean it's infallible
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because the Icon Council, even Losk admits is inconsistent because
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at the beginning of the council and the theological argumentation
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he makes, they reject all images of the Father, but
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then at the end of the council they say, but
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we do allow for the imaging of the Father as
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the way Ezekiel one in Revelation describe him like an
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old man. So it left it was kind of confusing,
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in other words, what the Moscow Icon councils say. Anyway,
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long story short, the main point is it's not a
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good idea to image the Father. It should not be done,
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but perhaps rarely and tolerated rarely. And the main reason
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that we don't do it is because icons teach theology,
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and we don't want the theology of the symbol of
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the icon teaching Philly okuay and confusing economia with theology
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proper or the eternal intertrinitarian relations. So I'm sorry, Mattie,
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go ahead, No, No.
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You're right, bro. That was very explanation.
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I was actually gonna mention you'll podcast with Sam quotam
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p favor one cool.
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Did you see my bio? I'm a co writer for
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the new Samhart Show.
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I heard about that. I was going to ask you
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about that off. So what's happening with that show you're
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going to be? Is there to be a new show for.
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Michael sam Uh Well, it's kind of been morphing in
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terms of what's the plan. But he's gonna there will
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be a studio and all that eventually, but the first
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episode is officially going to be the video that just
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came out about Elon.
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Okay, beautiful, beautiful man. I'm looking I'm looking forward to it.
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I love you, I love you guys, thank you.
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I was gonna ask I was gonna present an argument
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in the form of a question as well. So Saint
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Isaac Assyrian, he's canonized as a saint in the Orpanops Church.
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Correct.
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Yeah, So my question slash argument is the Council of
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Emphasis was in four thirty one a d.
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And Saint Isaac was a bishop in the Assyrian Church.
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Yeah, he during the time period where he was alive
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that they were reconciled to the Orthodox.
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But okay, so that's interesting.
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So he was his professional position was aligned with the
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Assyrian Church, which was in six eighty eighty, which is
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two hundred years post schism.
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No, but he was reconciled to the Orthodox. I don't
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know how wide that reconciliation was. But if you read
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about this and from the Orthodox perspective, that's why we
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consider him a saint. He was not in schism, so.
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Is that okay?
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So that's interesting. So that him individually, individually.
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That's what I'm saying. I'm not sure if it's the
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entire region that he was in or how widespread it was,
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but he was he himself was not in schism.
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Now, okay, So if that went to me, you there,
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you cut out, start over.
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So if there was a modern example of this, say
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someone isn't a different church than the Orthodox Church, and
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they have the own spiritual life, but it sort of
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aligns with the Orthodox.
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They're actually as president. In fact, there's two examples of
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this in modern Orthodox practice. Well, and I say modern
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because I can give you a modern example. In a
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late medieval example, some of h Jan huss I think
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is sometimes considered Orthodox or or the Hussites are sometimes
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considered Orthodox. And there was a person, a Lutheran in
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the circles of the Romanovs that is considered orthodox. I
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forget the name of that person, but there is yes.
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So like the statement would be like although the professional
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position is not Eastern Orthodoxy, you know.
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I'm saying that well correct. I think in the case
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that I don't know the specifics of the Hussites, but
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this has come up in I think Rokor and with
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somebody who served the royal family the Romanovs who was
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Lutheran but was eventually professed Orthodox. If I don't know if
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they were actually received, but they were professing it, but
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I think they're considered Orthodox. I'm just I'm not like
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an expert on church history. It's not my main thing.
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But I'm pretty sure that in the case of Isaac
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the Syrian, he was there was no such thing as
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Assyrian Church of the East. That title is a much
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later title, and so they would have called themselves orthod
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even if they were in schism. But the Orthodox position
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is that he was reconciled to the Orthodox Church.
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That's interesting. I actually have a little into that. So
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when do you think the Assyrian church gives So.
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You know, I'm saying that the council, I'm saying the
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title quote Assyrian Church of the East is what it's
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known as today. So what I'm saying is you can't
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say that Isaac Assyrian was a member of the quote
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Assyrian Church of the East. They don't know. They would
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have known what that title. That's a more modern title.
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I'm saying that he would have seen himself as Orthodox,
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but he was actually united to and in communion with
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the Orthodox Church in his day, the rest of the
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Orthodox world. That's why he's a saint. We don't hold
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anybody as a saint who died out of communi or
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in schism officially with us. But jon Hooss was not
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in schism with us. And the women who are the
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person that served the Ramanovs who was Lutheran, the profess
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Orthodoxy before she died, If it was a she, it's
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it's an interesting There are cases of this, But no,
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he's not. He's not a member of the Syrian Church
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of the East, is what I'm trying to say. He's Orthodox.
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So what about people of today, they're not considered Orthdox
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who a Syrian coach of today on considered Orthodox.
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In your opinion.
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So look, you're thinking of this as either or black
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and white. There are people in these regions who at
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different time periods can be reconciled to the rest of
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the Church, and that that may not last may or
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may not be there forever. Right. So no, there's no
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such thing as people in the Assyrian Church of the
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East that are Orthodox today.
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Okay, it's interesting. I really appreciate that conversation. Day.
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Yeah, and uh, I I don't know all the details
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all the top of my head, but if you look
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into this you will see that I'm correct. It's just
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not the area that I did not spend a whole
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lot of time on the history of the historians. And
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Kai is actually the dude for that. If you want
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to know the history of the Church of the East,
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that's Kai's whole thing. That's not that's not my thing.
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Kai knows all about that, you know, is way more
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than I do. Kai even knows all the Assyrian terms
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and theological canuma and all these weird words. I don't
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know any of that. Uh tallahouse, see what's up, dude.
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But I'm sure there's people in the chat that know
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more about this than I do. But I remember because
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this came up with Taylor Marshall. Because Taylor mar Chill
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was arguing that the Orthodox are inconsistent, and he was saying, oh,
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Isaac of Nineveh was an historian. And the Orthodox response
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when this came up like four years ago is that no,
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he was actually no general hardened opposition to Chalcedon created
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a final division between the Church of Persia in Saint
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Isaac's day and Chalcidon, whereas for the Monophysites it was clear.
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So the argument here is that there was not a
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clear split of the Assyrian Church of the East. The
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title Assyrian Church of the East is a modern term
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that's used for the modern Assyrian Church of the East,
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so it's wrong to retroactively read that back into the
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Church of Persia in this time period. That's why it says,
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I hear the Church of Persia or the Orthodox Church
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in Persia, which is what it would have been called
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in his day right, is nowadays called the Assyrian Church
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of the East. But that does not mean that in
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his day they were officially the Nestorian Assyrian Church of
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the East. That's what I'm trying to say. And the
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Orthodox view is that he was not in schism. What's up, man,
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tallahause gonna i'mute.
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Oh yeah, awesome, Yeah, I want to ask you about
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a topic that I feel like, you know, you could
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hear so many different interpretations on different viewpoints across different
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kinds of Christians. But I wanted to ask you, what
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is the Orthodox Church's interpretation on the blasphemy against the
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Holy Spirit passages?
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That it's rejecting the call of the Spirit until the
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end of your life?
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Okay, especially it's like the reject the rejection of Christ
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that they just has a like spirit drawing you to Christ.
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Yeah, not a literal, actual thing that verbally can be said.
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Okay, I was I was just curious. Yeah, I was curious.
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There's so many different viewpoints out there. You know, people
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like discuss debate this and some people like really free
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out about it.
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But uh oh yeah, I was really I was curious.
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Yeah, great question. Uh yeah, we've had that. That one
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comes up every now and then. Which is which is fun?
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It's a good question. I I don't I mean, I
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don't know off the top of my head, like every
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patristic exegesis of the passage, but I think typically we
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don't believe that, like there's some you know, incantation that
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if you say it, you could never be saved again.
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I don't know any priests that would tell you, oh,
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you said something against Holy Spirit. Uh, you'll never be saved, goodbye.
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I mean I think everybody would uh would uh if
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you're Orthodox, that priest would hear your concussion? What's up, joker?
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Hi? Jay?
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So I got a question on.
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Uh, maybe I should give it a little bit bit
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of a background. I come from a Mormon background. I'm
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not specifically Mormon right now, but I'm kind of wanting
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to get your thoughts on.
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Sorry, I'm getting over I'm getting over cold.
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I'm I'm wondering your thoughts on do you think that
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Joseph Smith was Do you think he was a liar?
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Do you think that the angel morone I came from
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the devil? Do you think that he he hallucinated it?
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Because that's kind of I'm kind of wondering.
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Recently, you know, reading Galatians and.
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And a lot of the.
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A lot of different New Testament Bible verses without Mormon
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interpretation on it, it seems like, you know, the Mormon
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religion is kind of refuted just with the New Testament
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absolutely about you know, false false angels, false prophecies.
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How we know, Yeah, it's the same correct and it's
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the same route of reputation that I would go with
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a Muslim, because both religions believe that there's ongoing new revelations.
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When the Orthodox Church early on in the in the
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Early Councils condemned Montanus and in the condonation of Montanism,
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there is the theological position that there's a finality to
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divine revelation. There are no new prophets after the death
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of the apostles. Jesus in Luke sixteen says that John
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was the last of the prophets. Since that time the
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Kingdom God has preached, and so there is no such
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thing as a office of a prophet anymore. That doesn't
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mean there can't be people with clairvoyance or that there
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aren't miracles, but in the sense of public, divine dogmatic
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revelation that ceased when John died. There's many other verses
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too that also point out that the faith was quote
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once for all, delivered to the saints in Jude three,
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So that means there cannot be new revelations. And if
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there's ongoing new revelations, you couldn't really follow Paul's injunction
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in Galatians one to judge everything according to what Paul
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laid down. You see. The other thing is that if
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you read the Joseph Smith translation of Genesis he created,
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he added eleven verses to Genesis fifty to predict himself.
400
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I think that's one und percent, absolute, definitive proof that
401
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he was a con man and a liar. So what
402
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is your Are you familiar with that?
403
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By the way, Yeah, I am, I know I know that.
404
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Yeah, he because a lot of that is not in
405
00:25:58.200 --> 00:26:00.200
the Book of Mormon. That's that's one of the is
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that they bring people into the Mormon faith is they
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preach the Book of Mormon, which is you know, for
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you you would be able to pick it apart pretty quickly,
409
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but for a lot of people it.
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Seems internally consistent.
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But then what they do is they add the doctrine
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incumvenance and the Pearl of Great Price, right, and like
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the the Book of Abraham and.
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Stuff like that.
415
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Where where now now you thought that you were just
416
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getting in, you got baptized, and now you're learning about
417
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the Pearl of great price.
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It's the same. It's the same with Islam. Yeah, it's
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the same with Islam. Where many people will convert because
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they oh, Islam is just simple. It's the Quran, and
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you know these basic ideas of monotheism, and it's like, no, no,
422
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you gotta believe all these You gotta believe the fart
423
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hadieds dude, you gotta believe that Satan's making you fart.
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You gotta believe you know all these I'm serious, there's
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multiple fart hediths. You gotta believe all those things too.
426
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So what do you what do you think is the
427
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best way too?
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Because I I'm in.
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A Mormon family myself, like so both sides of my
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family mother, father, extended family on each side, like they're
431
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all like super Mormon. They attend church every Sunday. What
432
00:27:22.519 --> 00:27:24.119
do you think is like the best way that you
433
00:27:24.319 --> 00:27:28.720
found where you can kind of red pill them on
434
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on this topic, but not the super abrasive where we're
435
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like the the instinct of wanting to fight back whenever
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they hear anything that is slightly even anti Mormon. What
437
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do you think is the best way to kind of
438
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go about that route of trying to just even talk
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to them.
440
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I'll be honest with you, I don't I've not had
441
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It's only been in the last two years that I've
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even had many Mormon interactions and that we've actually been
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seeing Mormon's convert. So I don't actually have a lot
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of background of debating or interacting with Mormons, because like
445
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in Tennis, you know, I'm from Tennessee, I grew up
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in California. I'm in Florida. I mean, there's not a
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lot of Mormons. So it's not something that I mean,
448
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I've read and I studied a decent amount about Mormonism,
449
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but it's not a thing that I encounter a lot
450
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until the last couple of years of the channel growing
451
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and a lot of people calling in. So I don't
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actually know the best route. Probably a former Mormon who's
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now Orthodox. I think Elder Millennial is a was a
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guy that's on my feed if you find him on Twitter.
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I think he used to be a Mormon. He might
456
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be a good guy to ask because I think he
457
00:28:38.240 --> 00:28:41.920
came from a Mormon family. There's another Orthodox guy in
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my followers on Twitter. I don't remember his name, but
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I know Elder Millennial I think was a Mormon. I
460
00:28:47.640 --> 00:28:51.279
would ask him, so dm that dude or follow that dude,
461
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But I would say, just kind of going by my intuition,
462
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I think both Mormons and Muslims kind of have this
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idea that our revelation is kind of it's in continuity
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with what came before, but it's superior. But the problem
465
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is that the prior revelation that we have, whether it's
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Deuteronomy thirteen, Deuteramy eighteen, Galatians one, Jude three, like, it
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lays down strictures that prior to the supposed new revelation,
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whether it's Muhammed or Joseph Smith, like, the new revelations
469
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have to match up to the old. And what both
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Mormons and Muslims do is say, no, no, no, the old
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revelation has to be judged by the new. But that's
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what every cult leader and sectarian birdo says. But the
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prior revelation tells them. And by the way, even the
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Quran I've got right here. I know you're not Muslim,
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but it's very illustrative because it's exact same principle.
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Right.
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The Quran says, right here, let the people of the
478
00:29:52.599 --> 00:29:57.039
Gospel judge what has by what Allah has revealed in it.
479
00:29:57.680 --> 00:30:01.440
So the people of the Gospel, the people of the book,
480
00:30:01.480 --> 00:30:03.519
the people of the prior revelations are supposed to look
481
00:30:03.559 --> 00:30:07.440
and see, oh, look the Koran is consistent with previous revelation.
482
00:30:07.799 --> 00:30:10.400
And what does every Muslim do when you point out
483
00:30:10.799 --> 00:30:13.319
the multitudes of places where it's not, Oh, well that's
484
00:30:13.319 --> 00:30:16.240
where it's corrupted. You see. Well that's a double standard.
485
00:30:16.559 --> 00:30:19.200
And Mormon does exact same thing when they say, well,
486
00:30:19.240 --> 00:30:21.720
we believe the previous revelation, but oh it turns out
487
00:30:21.759 --> 00:30:24.559
it was corrupted, and Joseph is fixing all the private
488
00:30:24.559 --> 00:30:27.000
prior corruptions. Well now wait a minute, Joseph Smith is
489
00:30:27.000 --> 00:30:31.000
fixing the pro ruptions. Why is he adding eleven verses
490
00:30:31.039 --> 00:30:33.119
to Genesis or whatever that is? That sounds like a
491
00:30:33.119 --> 00:30:34.279
con man, not a you know.
492
00:30:34.680 --> 00:30:35.079
Correct.
493
00:30:35.839 --> 00:30:39.119
Well, so, but what's your take on do you think
494
00:30:39.160 --> 00:30:45.960
that so it Jesseus Smith got visited by the angel Moroni?
495
00:30:46.400 --> 00:30:53.079
Do you think that that visitation was like satanic or devilish?
496
00:30:53.359 --> 00:30:54.359
I don't know, it could be.
497
00:30:54.440 --> 00:30:58.279
I mean, it's entirely just in your in your opinion.
498
00:30:58.880 --> 00:31:00.359
I'm not I'm not saying you have to.
499
00:31:01.000 --> 00:31:02.759
I believe it could go either I could you could
500
00:31:02.799 --> 00:31:05.440
go either way. So, just like with Mohammed, you know,
501
00:31:05.559 --> 00:31:08.440
when he first started having these so called revelations, he
502
00:31:08.559 --> 00:31:10.559
was falling on the ground in seizures and he thought
503
00:31:10.559 --> 00:31:13.960
he was possessed. That's in one of the hydiths. And
504
00:31:14.039 --> 00:31:18.119
so it's entirely possible that Joseph Smith. I did see
505
00:31:18.160 --> 00:31:21.200
some texts many years ago which there was an ex
506
00:31:21.240 --> 00:31:23.079
Mormon channel that used to be on YouTube, and I
507
00:31:23.119 --> 00:31:24.799
don't think you can find it anymore, but they were
508
00:31:24.880 --> 00:31:28.359
uploading old Mormon texts where there was evidence that Joseph
509
00:31:28.359 --> 00:31:32.359
Smith was interested in ritual magic. Now, maybe those were
510
00:31:32.400 --> 00:31:33.279
not real texts.
511
00:31:33.319 --> 00:31:33.640
I don't.
512
00:31:33.799 --> 00:31:36.759
I don't know, I didn't, but if they were real texts,
513
00:31:36.759 --> 00:31:40.519
it's entirely possible that he was involved in occultic type
514
00:31:40.519 --> 00:31:42.640
stuff and he thought he was, you know, interacting with
515
00:31:42.680 --> 00:31:47.160
spirits or you know, he his magic peep stone or
516
00:31:47.160 --> 00:31:49.519
whatever that story like. Maybe he's just a comment. I
517
00:31:49.559 --> 00:31:51.279
don't Either way, it doesn't matter to me.
518
00:31:52.200 --> 00:31:55.599
Okay, I have one other quick question. It's actually not
519
00:31:56.440 --> 00:31:58.440
about Mormon theology or anything like that.
520
00:31:58.599 --> 00:32:03.559
Sure, I was in a space yesterday and they it.
521
00:32:03.599 --> 00:32:08.799
Was a question about of you know, the the Catholic
522
00:32:09.000 --> 00:32:12.599
Marian dogmas. I know that there's differences between I'm leading
523
00:32:12.680 --> 00:32:14.039
more Catholic than Orthodox.
524
00:32:14.359 --> 00:32:16.559
I'm not really one side or.
525
00:32:16.559 --> 00:32:20.000
The other, but I know that they're that the Orthodox
526
00:32:20.039 --> 00:32:24.599
does have Marian dogmas.
527
00:32:22.759 --> 00:32:24.640
Such as like the perpetual virginity.
528
00:32:24.720 --> 00:32:28.720
Right, yeah, I mean we agree with Catholics on that one,
529
00:32:29.039 --> 00:32:31.440
but we do not believe in the mechanical conception because
530
00:32:31.440 --> 00:32:35.079
we don't believe in the Latin ideas of original sin.
531
00:32:36.519 --> 00:32:40.160
Okay, yeah, so what about Because I was posed with
532
00:32:40.200 --> 00:32:44.599
the question of, well, what does it even matter believing
533
00:32:44.640 --> 00:32:44.799
in that?
534
00:32:45.279 --> 00:32:45.680
Does that?
535
00:32:46.000 --> 00:32:48.599
Does it save you? Does it not save you? Do
536
00:32:48.640 --> 00:32:50.160
you really have to believe in that?
537
00:32:50.240 --> 00:32:53.039
Well, the thing is that they just in Orthodox theology,
538
00:32:53.119 --> 00:32:55.599
all the doctrines are kind of bound up together and
539
00:32:55.599 --> 00:33:01.720
they're interconnected. So, for example, mariology, as St. Cyril says
540
00:33:01.720 --> 00:33:06.079
at Ephesus, is crucial to the Gospel because calling Mary
541
00:33:06.160 --> 00:33:10.799
theotokos literally is an expression, as Cyril says, of the Gospel,
542
00:33:11.160 --> 00:33:13.839
it means that the person that came forth from her,
543
00:33:13.839 --> 00:33:16.400
that she gives birth to is a divine person and
544
00:33:16.480 --> 00:33:19.839
identical to the second person of the Godhead. So for Cyril,
545
00:33:19.960 --> 00:33:24.160
the word theotokos, he says, is a summation of the Gospel.
546
00:33:24.559 --> 00:33:30.880
So the soteriology and mariology and Christology, they're all really
547
00:33:30.960 --> 00:33:34.359
just implications of one another, and they go together. So
548
00:33:34.440 --> 00:33:36.599
that's why they matter, is that they all it's a
549
00:33:36.640 --> 00:33:39.839
golden chain. What you believe about Christology is going to
550
00:33:39.920 --> 00:33:44.640
determine your ecclesiology, It's going to determine your sacramentology. So
551
00:33:44.680 --> 00:33:46.559
that's why they all standard for all together.
552
00:33:47.720 --> 00:33:49.759
Well, what if you what if you have a.
553
00:33:51.440 --> 00:33:57.880
Perfect idea of like let's just let's just say go in,
554
00:33:58.039 --> 00:33:59.960
go into a Catholics Maan, I know you're not Catholic,
555
00:34:00.079 --> 00:34:04.400
But what if what if I believed in every single
556
00:34:04.480 --> 00:34:09.800
Catholic doctrine, but I just rejected the Marian dogmas like
557
00:34:10.480 --> 00:34:13.719
and I think there's a little bit of a part
558
00:34:13.760 --> 00:34:16.039
of the Orthodox Church that could agree with this, But
559
00:34:17.119 --> 00:34:19.679
what would you lose your salvation?
560
00:34:19.920 --> 00:34:23.519
Like, do you you have to accept every single yes
561
00:34:25.079 --> 00:34:25.920
to be saved?
562
00:34:26.840 --> 00:34:28.480
You have to do you have to accept those to
563
00:34:28.519 --> 00:34:28.920
be saved?
564
00:34:28.960 --> 00:34:31.519
You have to accept every dogma to be saved. In
565
00:34:31.559 --> 00:34:35.599
the Roman Catholic system and in the Orthodox view, dogmas
566
00:34:35.639 --> 00:34:38.880
by definition are not negotiable. So in other words, you
567
00:34:38.880 --> 00:34:41.840
can read Mestichi Corporus, you can read Southeast Cognedium, you
568
00:34:41.880 --> 00:34:44.239
can read when I'm Song to Them, you can read
569
00:34:44.280 --> 00:34:47.800
Vatican One from the Roman Calic side. They all state
570
00:34:47.920 --> 00:34:52.760
that everything proposed by the magisterium for belief is necessary
571
00:34:52.760 --> 00:34:57.039
to believe. In non negotiable Orthodox Church, we don't have
572
00:34:57.079 --> 00:34:59.000
the Magisterium of the papacy and all that, but we
573
00:34:59.159 --> 00:35:03.360
have the the ecumenical councils, we have the dogmatic definitions
574
00:35:03.400 --> 00:35:06.440
from those councils, and you know the niceno constablitan creed.
575
00:35:07.079 --> 00:35:10.760
Uh So, yeah, you can't can't negotiate.
576
00:35:10.400 --> 00:35:14.280
Arguing if you're arguing with a with a Protestant that
577
00:35:14.440 --> 00:35:18.760
doesn't believe in all those you know, the the church
578
00:35:18.840 --> 00:35:21.760
fathers and the traditions and the history.
579
00:35:23.000 --> 00:35:24.760
What what would you.
580
00:35:24.679 --> 00:35:29.119
Say of, Well, no, this is this is a this
581
00:35:29.199 --> 00:35:31.719
is a logical Christian.
582
00:35:31.840 --> 00:35:36.199
Reasoning for why you you have to accept these these
583
00:35:36.559 --> 00:35:40.719
dogmas and doctrines that may not be specifically laid out
584
00:35:40.719 --> 00:35:44.719
in the Bible, but it's still a part of salvation.
585
00:35:47.880 --> 00:35:50.519
Well, because there's all kinds of things that the Bible
586
00:35:50.599 --> 00:35:56.000
doesn't directly deal with or treat that even many Protestants
587
00:35:56.079 --> 00:35:59.280
would admit are necessary. For example, the doctrine of the Trinity,
588
00:35:59.800 --> 00:36:02.519
all though found in many passages of the Bible, is
589
00:36:02.559 --> 00:36:07.280
a doctrine that is explicated outside of the Bible. And
590
00:36:07.320 --> 00:36:09.920
there's other things too that are even if you're a Protestant,
591
00:36:09.960 --> 00:36:13.119
I mean, if you believe in soul scriptura, well, the
592
00:36:13.159 --> 00:36:15.559
canon of the scriptures was something that's not in the Bible,
593
00:36:15.800 --> 00:36:18.760
so you have to look to extra canonical things for that.
594
00:36:19.519 --> 00:36:22.920
So I don't think anybody really is consistent with this
595
00:36:23.079 --> 00:36:26.519
idea of only believing what's in the Bible for salvation. Nobody,
596
00:36:26.519 --> 00:36:27.639
nobody's consistent with that.
597
00:36:28.679 --> 00:36:30.920
So you're kind of you're kind of going with the
598
00:36:30.960 --> 00:36:36.079
reasoning of the birth of Jesus Christ came from Mary, right,
599
00:36:36.280 --> 00:36:41.199
she was the theotokos. So having a correct holistic view
600
00:36:41.480 --> 00:36:49.119
of who Mary is directly involves your your perception of
601
00:36:49.159 --> 00:36:52.440
who Jesus Christ is. It's kind of it's kind of related,
602
00:36:52.519 --> 00:36:53.679
like all that is related.
603
00:36:53.800 --> 00:36:56.199
Yeah, Mary, That's why I'm saying Mary and doctrines are
604
00:36:56.280 --> 00:36:59.880
an outworking of Christology. That's the argument of cyril at ephesis.
605
00:37:01.079 --> 00:37:05.159
But so for the and I don't I'm not even.
606
00:37:05.880 --> 00:37:09.400
Prepared for any debate at all of the assumption of Mary.
607
00:37:09.480 --> 00:37:12.320
But if we're following your logic.
608
00:37:13.199 --> 00:37:16.440
Since the assumption of you would I guess you would,
609
00:37:16.760 --> 00:37:18.679
you would reject the assumption.
610
00:37:18.320 --> 00:37:21.119
Of many we believe in the body of the Orthodox
611
00:37:21.199 --> 00:37:24.000
Church believes in it because it's actually an Eastern feast
612
00:37:24.239 --> 00:37:25.559
of the dormssion.
613
00:37:26.400 --> 00:37:27.920
You said earlier that you know.
614
00:37:28.360 --> 00:37:32.360
You don't believe immaculate conception is not an Orthodox teaching
615
00:37:33.000 --> 00:37:36.679
because immaculate conception is bound up with the Augustinian view
616
00:37:36.800 --> 00:37:39.039
of what original sin is and the idea of a
617
00:37:39.199 --> 00:37:45.079
taint of original sin that has passed on through seminal transmission. Okay,
618
00:37:46.760 --> 00:37:50.239
but now you said you said you find also is
619
00:37:50.239 --> 00:37:53.519
the more convincing the Orthodoxy? Why I always find this odd?
620
00:37:53.679 --> 00:37:55.719
Why? Well?
621
00:37:55.840 --> 00:37:59.800
I I am a grouper, after all, I I listened
622
00:37:59.840 --> 00:38:03.039
to Nick, But I don't get my Catholic faith from Nick.
623
00:38:03.119 --> 00:38:06.280
I kind of just got the.
624
00:38:05.119 --> 00:38:08.039
The song po political stuff is.
625
00:38:09.400 --> 00:38:12.119
No no, I I I I have more gotten it
626
00:38:12.119 --> 00:38:17.079
from Trent Horn and and Sam Schimoon and and guys
627
00:38:17.119 --> 00:38:17.440
like that.
628
00:38:17.760 --> 00:38:19.360
So what would be one er, what would be one
629
00:38:19.400 --> 00:38:22.239
or two arguments that they present for the Catholic position
630
00:38:22.320 --> 00:38:26.039
that is more consistent or more convincing than the Orthodox position.
631
00:38:30.760 --> 00:38:38.159
I feel like that I I think that the papacy
632
00:38:38.280 --> 00:38:42.719
is the best way to and and you know, I'm
633
00:38:42.760 --> 00:38:43.920
I'm a Mormon and.
634
00:38:43.800 --> 00:38:46.199
So there's actually a little bit of a there's a
635
00:38:46.239 --> 00:38:48.639
thing that Mormons and Catholics can agree on.
636
00:38:53.239 --> 00:38:56.119
Well, that's a good one.
637
00:38:56.239 --> 00:38:59.760
But I would say that having having a have having
638
00:38:59.840 --> 00:39:06.519
a leader, having authority of of your beliefs, and having
639
00:39:06.559 --> 00:39:09.320
someone that is is infallible.
640
00:39:09.400 --> 00:39:12.119
Okay, just and just and I'll finish.
641
00:39:12.159 --> 00:39:14.119
I'll finish with this and I'll let you respond.
642
00:39:14.159 --> 00:39:18.280
But in my mind, I think that there has to
643
00:39:18.320 --> 00:39:22.599
be someone that is infallible to interpret the.
644
00:39:22.519 --> 00:39:24.400
Bible, which is also infallible.
645
00:39:24.440 --> 00:39:28.800
If you don't have someone that is infallible to interpret
646
00:39:29.119 --> 00:39:31.639
something that is purpose, something that is you know, as
647
00:39:32.159 --> 00:39:36.199
as Protestants would would say, you know, God breathed, then
648
00:39:36.760 --> 00:39:40.119
it's it comes into interpretation.
649
00:39:39.599 --> 00:39:42.440
Between them, and I understand. So you're still going to
650
00:39:42.480 --> 00:39:45.400
say that about Okay, so the pope does that, But
651
00:39:45.440 --> 00:39:48.119
how does that actually help you on an individual basis
652
00:39:48.599 --> 00:39:51.840
when you're still fallible and you now got to interpret
653
00:39:51.880 --> 00:39:54.400
all the papal documents, So how is it not just
654
00:39:54.400 --> 00:39:55.480
moving the problem back and stuff?
655
00:39:58.960 --> 00:40:00.760
It doesn't And and I kind of.
656
00:40:02.239 --> 00:40:06.039
For me, I want to be personally, I want to
657
00:40:06.519 --> 00:40:13.840
know every single thing about the traditional churches, and.
658
00:40:14.239 --> 00:40:17.320
But I don't know. But aside from all that, a more
659
00:40:17.400 --> 00:40:22.280
fundamental question is what I'm asking, which is okay, so
660
00:40:22.320 --> 00:40:25.559
you're saying, I want a guy who's going to be
661
00:40:25.719 --> 00:40:29.760
the arbiter, who can, you know, tell me the right interpretation?
662
00:40:30.079 --> 00:40:33.079
And I'm saying, isn't that begging the question and just
663
00:40:33.199 --> 00:40:36.159
moving the problem back and stuff? Because now you are
664
00:40:36.159 --> 00:40:39.239
going to be interpreting the pope's words about the scriptures?
665
00:40:39.320 --> 00:40:41.440
So how does that solve that dilemma? I don't understand.
666
00:40:46.840 --> 00:40:47.519
Sorry, you cut it.
667
00:40:47.599 --> 00:40:49.599
I don't know if it happened to anyone else, but
668
00:40:49.639 --> 00:40:50.199
you cut out.
669
00:40:50.400 --> 00:40:52.639
I said, how how does it solve the dilemma by
670
00:40:52.719 --> 00:40:55.719
just adding another step to the equation and saying that
671
00:40:56.239 --> 00:40:59.519
the pope is going to solve the interpretive issues? Well,
672
00:41:00.079 --> 00:41:07.960
you have to interpret all the paper writings, which are voluminous.
673
00:41:09.960 --> 00:41:17.360
Well, and it's very hard for me because I look
674
00:41:17.440 --> 00:41:21.000
at this is the reason that I can I can
675
00:41:21.199 --> 00:41:23.840
easily break through or kind of say.
676
00:41:23.880 --> 00:41:27.960
Why I came to at least like a Catholic reasoning.
677
00:41:27.960 --> 00:41:31.440
Is because I listened to all of the all of
678
00:41:31.480 --> 00:41:37.559
the Protestant positions on you know, infant baptism or you know,
679
00:41:37.719 --> 00:41:40.639
water baptismal regeneration.
680
00:41:41.360 --> 00:41:41.800
Why does.
681
00:41:43.440 --> 00:41:44.599
Believe in the Marion dogmas?
682
00:41:44.800 --> 00:41:47.079
How does that prove with I mean if if a Christian,
683
00:41:47.119 --> 00:41:49.480
if a Christian lives a debate to a Muslim, does
684
00:41:49.480 --> 00:41:52.239
that make his launchry?
685
00:41:53.639 --> 00:41:53.880
Well?
686
00:41:53.920 --> 00:41:57.559
But the the problem is is that when you look
687
00:41:57.599 --> 00:42:03.199
at I came to Cathosa because I understood that Protestantism
688
00:42:03.679 --> 00:42:05.159
didn't really hold any water.
689
00:42:05.280 --> 00:42:06.159
Because they don't.
690
00:42:06.440 --> 00:42:12.119
They don't have any authority to say, well, well, should.
691
00:42:11.760 --> 00:42:15.440
We baptize infants? Should we even have baptism at all?
692
00:42:15.480 --> 00:42:17.960
Should just should it be through water? Should it be
693
00:42:18.000 --> 00:42:18.760
through a handshake?
694
00:42:20.000 --> 00:42:21.159
Should we?
695
00:42:21.320 --> 00:42:22.880
But how does that tell you? How does that tell
696
00:42:22.880 --> 00:42:24.360
you that? How does that tell you the difference between
697
00:42:24.360 --> 00:42:27.519
the Orthodox or the Catholic? So Protestants are wrong, agreed,
698
00:42:27.719 --> 00:42:29.159
How does that tell you true?
699
00:42:31.159 --> 00:42:31.679
It doesn't.
700
00:42:31.880 --> 00:42:36.079
Okay, I'll admit that, like I don't. I don't think
701
00:42:36.079 --> 00:42:36.320
it does.
702
00:42:36.480 --> 00:42:39.119
Now you're a groper. So as a groper, I'm curious.
703
00:42:39.239 --> 00:42:42.079
I mean, when Francis goes and praise in the synagogues,
704
00:42:42.599 --> 00:42:46.760
how does that make Catholicism convincing? I don't understand.
705
00:42:50.000 --> 00:42:52.360
You said, when Pope Francis.
706
00:42:52.000 --> 00:42:53.760
And John Paul the Second, when they go and pray
707
00:42:53.800 --> 00:42:56.280
in the synagogues. How does that? How is that consistent
708
00:42:56.360 --> 00:42:57.440
with what you're looking for?
709
00:43:03.440 --> 00:43:07.000
I mean, can I don't.
710
00:43:07.440 --> 00:43:11.559
I mean every gropper I've ever seen is pretty critical
711
00:43:11.639 --> 00:43:14.960
of rabbinical Judaism.
712
00:43:14.199 --> 00:43:18.000
Right, well, yeah, per personally, I don't think that he
713
00:43:18.079 --> 00:43:24.599
should be doing anything in a synagogue because, yeah, in
714
00:43:24.639 --> 00:43:30.119
a synagogue they believe that in a compute a completely
715
00:43:30.599 --> 00:43:36.039
bristical view of monotheism, which is which is anti trinitarianism.
716
00:43:35.199 --> 00:43:37.400
Absolutely, by the way, but have you read Vatican two?
717
00:43:39.440 --> 00:43:39.800
I have not.
718
00:43:40.079 --> 00:43:44.239
Oh, okay, because guess what Vatican two turns out you're
719
00:43:44.280 --> 00:43:46.199
going to be in another situation of what you were
720
00:43:46.199 --> 00:43:48.719
just talking about with the Mormons, where you join it
721
00:43:48.760 --> 00:43:50.239
and then oh, it turns out you actually got to
722
00:43:50.239 --> 00:43:53.320
believe this other thing because in lumin Gentiem sixteen it
723
00:43:53.400 --> 00:43:57.039
says that Muslims hold the faith of Abraham just like
724
00:43:57.159 --> 00:44:00.000
Roman Catholics do, and that they all worship the same
725
00:44:00.039 --> 00:44:03.840
odd no state says the exact same thing. So if
726
00:44:03.880 --> 00:44:06.679
you if what you said is correct that Jews do
727
00:44:06.840 --> 00:44:10.599
not have the right faith because they're quote monotheist and
728
00:44:10.599 --> 00:44:14.119
not trinitarian, then you're just you are now refuting and
729
00:44:14.159 --> 00:44:16.719
rejecting Vatican two, which says that exact thing.
730
00:44:19.119 --> 00:44:21.880
Well, yeah, and and you got to give me a
731
00:44:21.880 --> 00:44:26.880
little bit of grace and charity though, because I haven't. No,
732
00:44:26.960 --> 00:44:29.599
I think I think that you are and you know,
733
00:44:29.679 --> 00:44:32.239
I'm not. I think that you bring up a lot
734
00:44:32.239 --> 00:44:37.360
of good points, and you know, I've I've watched you,
735
00:44:37.400 --> 00:44:38.119
I've watched.
736
00:44:37.880 --> 00:44:38.679
Debates that you're in.
737
00:44:38.800 --> 00:44:43.280
I think that you're very knowledgeable and and I completely.
738
00:44:44.840 --> 00:44:45.199
I don't.
739
00:44:45.239 --> 00:44:46.960
I don't disregard anything that you said.
740
00:44:47.039 --> 00:44:54.400
I think that I am not ideologically prepared for a
741
00:44:54.480 --> 00:44:56.320
discussion on on Vatican Team.
742
00:44:56.440 --> 00:44:58.840
That's whine. I'm not trying to drop you. I'm not
743
00:44:58.840 --> 00:45:00.400
trying to trap you. I'm just trying to make the
744
00:45:00.440 --> 00:45:04.119
point that the very thing that you express concern about
745
00:45:04.159 --> 00:45:05.880
originally in the debate, which I think is a very
746
00:45:05.880 --> 00:45:09.400
profound point, which is that sometimes groups will give the
747
00:45:09.400 --> 00:45:12.519
impression that when you convert, it's just these simple things
748
00:45:12.519 --> 00:45:14.199
that you have to believe, and then you later find
749
00:45:14.199 --> 00:45:16.880
out no, there's actually also these other things that you
750
00:45:17.000 --> 00:45:19.320
also got to believe that are problematic that they didn't
751
00:45:19.320 --> 00:45:23.079
tell you about initially, like Perl of great Price, doction
752
00:45:23.199 --> 00:45:26.360
and covenants, etc. These things are later added on, and
753
00:45:26.559 --> 00:45:28.920
I'm telling you that it's exact same thing. When you
754
00:45:29.000 --> 00:45:30.719
join the Roman Catholic Church, you're going to learn that
755
00:45:30.760 --> 00:45:34.559
you do not get the right to reject or criticize
756
00:45:35.039 --> 00:45:39.039
anything that's dogmatic or proposed as belief. And all the
757
00:45:39.079 --> 00:45:42.079
ecumenical councils in the Roman Catholic Church are papally approved
758
00:45:42.079 --> 00:45:45.480
and thus dogmatic, including Vatican one and Vatican two. And
759
00:45:45.519 --> 00:45:49.239
so you don't get the option to reject lumin GENTM
760
00:45:49.320 --> 00:45:54.320
sixteen or no Stratate four, which is very problematic, I
761
00:45:54.360 --> 00:45:58.159
would argue. So, not trying to call you out or whatever,
762
00:45:58.239 --> 00:46:01.000
I'm just encouraging you to not finow into the exact
763
00:46:01.039 --> 00:46:03.719
same thing. And I appreciate your questions are going to
764
00:46:03.800 --> 00:46:08.199
move on that you will experience as well. And I
765
00:46:08.239 --> 00:46:10.559
say that as a person who was in the tradcat
766
00:46:10.599 --> 00:46:15.000
world for around eight ten years somewhere in there. All right,
767
00:46:15.000 --> 00:46:16.960
we got still got a lot of people in line
768
00:46:17.039 --> 00:46:21.199
seventeen ish people who disagrees. Raise your hand. If you disagree,
769
00:46:21.199 --> 00:46:28.679
you go to the head of line. Alex, are you
770
00:46:28.719 --> 00:46:31.000
putting up one hundred percent because you disagree? I don't
771
00:46:31.000 --> 00:46:33.760
know what one hundred percent means, does that mean you disagree?
772
00:46:35.880 --> 00:46:38.800
Raise your hand if you disagree, could we'll go to
773
00:46:38.840 --> 00:46:40.960
Alex since he says he oh my.
774
00:46:40.920 --> 00:46:53.239
Gosh, hi jed Mary nativity even what's up?
775
00:46:54.920 --> 00:46:57.920
I'm a Coptic Orthodox. I just had a quick question.
776
00:46:59.519 --> 00:47:02.360
Why do you disagree with the idea of one nature?
777
00:47:04.880 --> 00:47:09.119
Because nature signifies the same thing that it signifies in
778
00:47:09.159 --> 00:47:12.440
the trinity, which is the thing that makes it that thing,
779
00:47:12.719 --> 00:47:17.639
and so Christ can't have a tertium quid. So if
780
00:47:17.719 --> 00:47:19.960
one nature is what Christ has in terms of the
781
00:47:20.039 --> 00:47:23.000
hyposthetic union, then it's a turtion quid.
782
00:47:27.039 --> 00:47:29.920
What does like internion quit meaning to be exactly.
783
00:47:30.960 --> 00:47:43.639
Moving on, Daniel, I think was next tertium quid? Third thing?
784
00:47:43.719 --> 00:47:46.920
Not tertion quid. And I'm not trure to me mean,
785
00:47:47.159 --> 00:47:53.000
but not playing the Coptic Oriental game. If you want
786
00:47:53.000 --> 00:47:57.719
to listen to our critiques, go watch our part one
787
00:47:57.719 --> 00:48:00.320
in part two six hours ahead.
788
00:48:01.639 --> 00:48:05.920
Hello, yep, Yeah, So I had a question about Eastern
789
00:48:06.039 --> 00:48:11.239
Orthodox rebaptisms from people coming from other faith traditions. Okay,
790
00:48:11.320 --> 00:48:13.679
so to me, it's a little confusing. I've asked a
791
00:48:13.679 --> 00:48:16.719
lot of Eastern Orthodox. They tell me, go ask your priests,
792
00:48:17.079 --> 00:48:19.800
who ask your bishop, But it sounds like you could
793
00:48:19.800 --> 00:48:21.920
get a different answer on whether.
794
00:48:22.039 --> 00:48:23.880
Yeah, that's because we don't believe there's a one size
795
00:48:23.920 --> 00:48:26.239
fits all. It's a question of economia.
796
00:48:27.960 --> 00:48:28.320
Okay.
797
00:48:28.559 --> 00:48:33.760
So the Sixth Ecumenical Council gives different accounts in different situations,
798
00:48:33.800 --> 00:48:36.760
as do the Canons of Nicea, for the reception of
799
00:48:36.760 --> 00:48:39.920
different people in different situations. So a priest who is
800
00:48:39.960 --> 00:48:42.960
received back from the Novations and Nicea is received by
801
00:48:43.079 --> 00:48:45.960
vesting or by just simply profession of faith because he
802
00:48:46.079 --> 00:48:51.559
was already ordained. People that were ordained in a Unitarian
803
00:48:51.599 --> 00:48:55.280
baptism in the Canons of the Sixth Econmentical Council are
804
00:48:55.400 --> 00:48:57.800
said to need to be rebaptized and received in a
805
00:48:57.800 --> 00:49:02.280
different way. So there's a lot of kanonical precedent for
806
00:49:02.400 --> 00:49:05.039
it being the decision of a local bishop to decide
807
00:49:05.320 --> 00:49:09.000
on a case by case basis how they should be received.
808
00:49:09.320 --> 00:49:10.039
Okay.
809
00:49:09.800 --> 00:49:11.960
So you're saying, like, and I agree with you completely
810
00:49:12.000 --> 00:49:16.360
on Unitarian or Mormon baptisms, but that could also include
811
00:49:16.360 --> 00:49:17.800
a Roman Catholic baptism as well.
812
00:49:17.840 --> 00:49:20.719
There have been different ways and times at which people
813
00:49:20.760 --> 00:49:23.679
from a Roman Catholic church were received. The Serbs did
814
00:49:23.679 --> 00:49:27.719
not rebaptized, or it's not rebaptism, it's just baptism, and
815
00:49:27.760 --> 00:49:32.000
even Roman Catholics practice conditional baptism, so it's basically the
816
00:49:32.039 --> 00:49:37.480
same idea. But that is different from the question of
817
00:49:37.519 --> 00:49:44.440
whether this canonical allowance is abused at times for acumenist reasons.
818
00:49:44.480 --> 00:49:48.880
And so acrevia is just as important as economia. Economia
819
00:49:48.960 --> 00:49:52.519
is flexibility on a case by case basis, but acrevia
820
00:49:52.639 --> 00:49:55.719
is also the stricture of trying to be accurate according
821
00:49:55.760 --> 00:49:56.400
to the canons.
822
00:49:57.480 --> 00:49:58.480
Okay, I gotcha.
823
00:49:58.519 --> 00:50:01.280
And if I could just ask one work question about
824
00:50:01.400 --> 00:50:05.320
nicea too. So where it talks about, yeah, where it
825
00:50:05.360 --> 00:50:09.280
talks about there's a phrase in it that's a Catholic
826
00:50:09.280 --> 00:50:10.000
actually brought.
827
00:50:09.840 --> 00:50:10.159
Up to me.
828
00:50:10.199 --> 00:50:13.159
It says, those who do not salute the Holy icons
829
00:50:13.239 --> 00:50:15.920
let them be anathema. I'm a little confused at what
830
00:50:15.960 --> 00:50:19.719
that means. Does that mean that icon veneration is absolutely
831
00:50:20.199 --> 00:50:22.440
necessary every time you enter a church?
832
00:50:22.800 --> 00:50:23.880
Like, what does that mean?
833
00:50:24.360 --> 00:50:28.039
No, it's talking about the people who are iconoclasts. If
834
00:50:28.039 --> 00:50:31.480
you teach iconoclasm, you're an anathema. It's not some weird
835
00:50:31.639 --> 00:50:34.360
like mandate about every single instance.
836
00:50:35.559 --> 00:50:41.800
Okay, okay, So they're addressing so that's that's not addressed
837
00:50:41.800 --> 00:50:44.559
to believers when it says that that's addressed to people
838
00:50:44.559 --> 00:50:46.719
who are anti icons.
839
00:50:46.880 --> 00:50:49.199
Right, the whole council is against the iconic class.
840
00:50:49.960 --> 00:50:50.679
Okay, got you.
841
00:50:50.800 --> 00:50:53.519
So you would say, as an Orthodox person that it's
842
00:50:53.599 --> 00:50:57.519
good to salute icons, but it's not like I'm required, No, you.
843
00:50:57.440 --> 00:50:59.760
Are required to. I was making the point that it's
844
00:50:59.800 --> 00:51:01.679
not like if I walk into the church and I
845
00:51:01.840 --> 00:51:05.440
accidentally didn't do this icon over here, and I did
846
00:51:05.480 --> 00:51:09.400
the other fifty nine gone dawn. It's not a legalistic
847
00:51:09.480 --> 00:51:13.400
being counting thing. It is saying against all the iconoclasts
848
00:51:13.920 --> 00:51:18.119
as heretics, and that's for our day in time. Protestants, Muslims,
849
00:51:18.119 --> 00:51:21.719
et cetera. All of those people are anathema because they
850
00:51:21.760 --> 00:51:24.280
don't follow the theology of the Council, which is an
851
00:51:24.280 --> 00:51:27.719
outworking of the incarnation. To reject icons is ultimately to
852
00:51:27.800 --> 00:51:28.639
reject the incarnation.
853
00:51:29.679 --> 00:51:33.960
Right, right, So does it specify what the veneration exactly
854
00:51:34.119 --> 00:51:37.280
is like for example, there's people who bow, there's people
855
00:51:37.280 --> 00:51:39.840
who might kiss it. There's might some people who might
856
00:51:39.880 --> 00:51:42.679
look at the icon because of what it represents, Like,
857
00:51:42.760 --> 00:51:44.920
do you have to do a specific type or is
858
00:51:45.039 --> 00:51:47.159
any type like acceptable.
859
00:51:47.599 --> 00:51:50.480
I mean, I think it's a lot of that tradition.
860
00:51:50.639 --> 00:51:52.920
A lot of that's what you would do to a
861
00:51:53.840 --> 00:51:57.239
person who was in authority or reverence. It comes out
862
00:51:57.239 --> 00:52:00.000
of ancient Near Eastern traditions. I mean Joseph bows before
863
00:52:00.119 --> 00:52:05.159
or Pharaoh Elijah bows before Elijah. I mean kissing is okay,
864
00:52:05.159 --> 00:52:07.599
you don't get Brady, get each other, Brady, greet each
865
00:52:07.599 --> 00:52:09.760
other and the brethren with a holy kiss. As Paul says,
866
00:52:09.800 --> 00:52:12.199
So some of this is out of the ancient Middle
867
00:52:12.199 --> 00:52:16.039
Eastern traditions. Some of it is just normal expressions of affection.
868
00:52:16.239 --> 00:52:21.639
I mean, yeah, yeah, well thanks Jay, I appreciate.
869
00:52:21.239 --> 00:52:23.000
You having me a wonderful rest to night.
870
00:52:23.440 --> 00:52:29.880
Yeah, those are good questions. I wasn't trying to be rude,
871
00:52:30.079 --> 00:52:32.440
all right, Well, looking for if you have questions. If
872
00:52:32.480 --> 00:52:34.360
you disagree, feel free to raise your hand. It is
873
00:52:34.360 --> 00:52:38.760
the year of love. I hope I have been successful
874
00:52:38.800 --> 00:52:45.679
tonight in being loving. I think only one guy got
875
00:52:45.719 --> 00:52:49.760
this sort of boot, but I think everybody agrees that
876
00:52:49.800 --> 00:52:54.360
he was sort of a ridiculous clown character. So we've
877
00:52:54.400 --> 00:53:05.360
been We've been loving. Parker disagrees. What's up, Parker, Hey, Hey, I.
878
00:53:05.400 --> 00:53:08.239
Got a question about the time frame in which councils
879
00:53:08.239 --> 00:53:12.559
can be overturned. So like in HYRIEA right obviously second
880
00:53:12.559 --> 00:53:16.039
council and CEO overturns on their councils. Is there a
881
00:53:16.079 --> 00:53:19.239
time frame or could like if everyone in the Orthodox
882
00:53:19.320 --> 00:53:21.519
got together had a medical council and they just like
883
00:53:21.559 --> 00:53:26.159
say stuff, but they could overturn previous counsels.
884
00:53:26.280 --> 00:53:30.599
I'm not aware of any argument or tradition about time
885
00:53:30.639 --> 00:53:32.760
frames canonically, I don't know.
886
00:53:33.000 --> 00:53:36.199
So would it be like logically following then they could
887
00:53:36.920 --> 00:53:38.960
overturn one like a thousand years ago.
888
00:53:39.039 --> 00:53:43.840
Or well, I don't think that. Like, so an Orthodox council,
889
00:53:43.880 --> 00:53:46.199
for example, that's been accepted and received throughout the whole
890
00:53:46.199 --> 00:53:50.519
world could not be like retroactively negated, because that would
891
00:53:50.880 --> 00:53:55.760
basically mean that the church was universally deceived. But I
892
00:53:55.800 --> 00:54:00.480
think councils that occur that eventually are rejected were never
893
00:54:00.679 --> 00:54:04.480
accepted by the whole and never achieved universal acceptance.
894
00:54:06.800 --> 00:54:11.360
Okay, okay, yeah, I got one more question. It's about
895
00:54:11.360 --> 00:54:16.039
a scripture. But I was gonna say, for in terms
896
00:54:16.039 --> 00:54:19.719
of whenever I get into the faith works echotomy or
897
00:54:19.880 --> 00:54:21.840
debate or whatever, it just turns into quote minds of
898
00:54:21.880 --> 00:54:24.400
Ephesians two eight and nine, like James and stuff.
899
00:54:24.519 --> 00:54:27.199
So how would you How does the Orthodox.
900
00:54:26.840 --> 00:54:30.360
Position harmonize something like Ephesians sweet nine with the Book
901
00:54:30.400 --> 00:54:32.599
of James and stuff like that, because to me, it doesn't.
902
00:54:32.760 --> 00:54:35.440
It's hard for me to harmonize on either side. It
903
00:54:35.519 --> 00:54:37.960
seems kind of contradictory.
904
00:54:38.039 --> 00:54:40.639
Well, I mean, first of all, the works that we
905
00:54:40.760 --> 00:54:44.239
do are works that are accepted by God in grace
906
00:54:44.400 --> 00:54:47.719
and done through grace. So we could agree with Augustine
907
00:54:47.719 --> 00:54:50.760
on that point that even when we do good works,
908
00:54:50.840 --> 00:54:54.199
we are really just you know, I think his phrase
909
00:54:54.239 --> 00:54:57.079
is something like God's crowning his own gifts. So even
910
00:54:57.079 --> 00:55:00.679
the good works that we present their gifts from God too,
911
00:55:01.719 --> 00:55:04.280
whether they are our own nature or whether they're by grace,
912
00:55:04.639 --> 00:55:09.239
they're still gracious in the sense that their gifts from God.
913
00:55:09.360 --> 00:55:11.039
So good works are still.
914
00:55:11.079 --> 00:55:12.079
Because of deification.
915
00:55:12.639 --> 00:55:14.840
Would that be why? Yeah?
916
00:55:15.719 --> 00:55:19.719
Okay, yeah, So like the good works that we do.
917
00:55:19.880 --> 00:55:22.800
Paul says in Thessalonians that it is the power of
918
00:55:22.880 --> 00:55:26.559
God at work in him to do good. Right, he
919
00:55:26.639 --> 00:55:29.719
calls himself a co worker with Christ because it is
920
00:55:29.800 --> 00:55:33.280
the energy of Christ in him working, and he's working
921
00:55:33.320 --> 00:55:36.079
with Christ. So there's a synergy there. So, but even
922
00:55:36.119 --> 00:55:40.360
if there's synergy, we don't get to account it as
923
00:55:40.639 --> 00:55:45.239
merits because that even the natural energy that we have
924
00:55:45.360 --> 00:55:47.559
is a proper work, proper to our human nature, that's
925
00:55:47.559 --> 00:55:49.920
still a gift from God too. So everything they have
926
00:55:50.079 --> 00:55:53.960
is from God, whether it's nature or grace, right, whether
927
00:55:53.960 --> 00:55:57.320
it's synergy, theosis, all of it is a gift. So
928
00:55:57.440 --> 00:56:00.280
there's really no place for boasting, even though we do
929
00:56:00.440 --> 00:56:03.599
believe that works are necessary. Another way to go about
930
00:56:03.599 --> 00:56:05.960
this argument is to point out that every time God
931
00:56:06.000 --> 00:56:09.559
makes the covenant with people throughout the Old Testament, even Abraham.
932
00:56:09.639 --> 00:56:13.679
If if you read Genesis twenty two, God makes clear
933
00:56:13.760 --> 00:56:17.559
that in the Abramic covenant there were still stipulations and requirements.
934
00:56:17.960 --> 00:56:21.559
So there's never a time when the covenant relationship and
935
00:56:21.599 --> 00:56:24.519
God always has a relationship with humans via covenant, there's
936
00:56:24.599 --> 00:56:28.559
never a time when there's not stipulations and requirements for
937
00:56:28.719 --> 00:56:30.960
both parties in the covenant. And that means works are
938
00:56:31.000 --> 00:56:34.000
always necessary. But there's never a point where you merit
939
00:56:34.599 --> 00:56:38.519
the enough of the of the good works, because it's
940
00:56:38.559 --> 00:56:41.679
always by grace. Even the works are by grace.
941
00:56:42.800 --> 00:56:46.480
Okay, yeah, I think those are all my questions about
942
00:56:46.480 --> 00:56:47.360
the weird question of you.
943
00:56:47.480 --> 00:56:48.320
I just always wondered that.
944
00:56:49.199 --> 00:56:49.400
Yeah.
945
00:56:50.159 --> 00:56:53.679
Another way to approach this question is to, yeah, thank you.
946
00:56:54.079 --> 00:56:56.960
If you go to the psalms. In many of the psalms,
947
00:56:57.000 --> 00:57:00.400
and yes, we know that the psalms are David speaking
948
00:57:00.440 --> 00:57:02.400
through the spirit of Christ, as Peter says, So there
949
00:57:02.400 --> 00:57:05.840
are many of them obviously messianic, but they're also actually
950
00:57:05.960 --> 00:57:09.719
David writing and composing the psalms and speaking. So it's
951
00:57:09.760 --> 00:57:13.360
an application to David himself and his life, and prophetically
952
00:57:13.400 --> 00:57:16.280
to Christ and his work. But you'll notice in many
953
00:57:16.280 --> 00:57:20.159
of the psalms David says, you know my works. My
954
00:57:20.239 --> 00:57:23.079
works are laid out before you. I have been faithful
955
00:57:23.119 --> 00:57:27.599
to you. I have not done wrong. Hear me? Oh God, Well,
956
00:57:28.119 --> 00:57:30.880
I mean, as David a believer in works righteousness. I
957
00:57:30.920 --> 00:57:33.679
mean some Protestants are actually so goofy that they'll actually say, yes, no,
958
00:57:33.800 --> 00:57:36.480
David actually believe that his salvation was by works, which
959
00:57:36.519 --> 00:57:39.039
is dumb because Paul says it was never by works,
960
00:57:39.440 --> 00:57:43.760
whether you're David or Abraham, all salvation always is by grace. Okay, well,
961
00:57:43.800 --> 00:57:46.599
then how was David able to, you know, make so
962
00:57:46.719 --> 00:57:50.360
many psalms talking about the fact that he had kept
963
00:57:50.360 --> 00:57:54.760
God's covenant, and even keeping the covenant does not mean
964
00:57:54.920 --> 00:57:59.480
sinless because within the covenant, even the most strict mosaic
965
00:57:59.559 --> 00:58:03.679
covenant included ways to deal with sin.
966
00:58:05.800 --> 00:58:10.880
So oh right, so like that would kind of make sense.
967
00:58:10.880 --> 00:58:12.159
Then I've you heard the phrase like.
968
00:58:12.440 --> 00:58:15.559
A lot of Orthodox people say, like God has saved me,
969
00:58:16.199 --> 00:58:18.800
is saving me, and in the future you will continue, right,
970
00:58:18.920 --> 00:58:19.800
So that kind of makes sense.
971
00:58:19.800 --> 00:58:24.159
Within that framework, that would be an outworking of deification
972
00:58:24.320 --> 00:58:25.400
kind of does that make sense?
973
00:58:25.480 --> 00:58:28.880
Yeah, Salvation is a one time event where it begins
974
00:58:28.880 --> 00:58:31.079
and then it's a process, and then it's an eschatological
975
00:58:31.199 --> 00:58:33.519
final event. So it's all those right.
976
00:58:34.239 --> 00:58:36.000
And then one more.
977
00:58:36.079 --> 00:58:39.719
Sorry I have another Orthodox question, but Jonathan Joe said
978
00:58:39.719 --> 00:58:41.639
that the Orthodox teaches, the.
979
00:58:41.679 --> 00:58:45.239
Orthodox Church teaches that the reason why it's like kill off.
980
00:58:45.159 --> 00:58:46.880
Your passions and all that type stuff is because you
981
00:58:46.920 --> 00:58:49.639
don't change when you die, so those passions will be
982
00:58:49.679 --> 00:58:52.119
with you in the escotone kind of like.
983
00:58:53.719 --> 00:58:55.440
And that's just the cut off point, right.
984
00:58:55.800 --> 00:58:58.039
Well, we do pray for the for those that die
985
00:58:58.440 --> 00:59:02.960
because they might still have have some attachments like that.
986
00:59:03.199 --> 00:59:07.039
So yeah, when you die, like the reason the church
987
00:59:07.119 --> 00:59:10.320
prays for you and that you're you're included in the liturgy.
988
00:59:10.440 --> 00:59:13.159
Is that most likely you were not you know fully
989
00:59:13.280 --> 00:59:14.599
sanctified before your death?
990
00:59:14.719 --> 00:59:14.880
Right?
991
00:59:15.000 --> 00:59:15.280
Yeah?
992
00:59:15.599 --> 00:59:16.800
Okay, So then.
993
00:59:18.360 --> 00:59:21.679
In terms of theosis then the Orthodox framework, is it
994
00:59:21.800 --> 00:59:25.480
like I always wanted this question, is it like, is
995
00:59:25.519 --> 00:59:28.320
it like a percentage and is it like, are you
996
00:59:28.360 --> 00:59:32.360
like ten percent, say Earth, you know, deified or.
997
00:59:32.320 --> 00:59:34.239
How would that work? No, it's a it's a never
998
00:59:34.440 --> 00:59:39.199
ending assent. In fact, the Cappadocians and Palamas describe it like, uh,
999
00:59:40.199 --> 00:59:44.400
the language is sometimes used as if there's portions, but
1000
00:59:44.800 --> 00:59:48.679
strictly speaking, there's no portions to God. So it's a
1001
00:59:48.840 --> 00:59:51.719
never ending spiral up into God is what the Cappa
1002
00:59:51.719 --> 00:59:52.679
Docans describe.
1003
00:59:53.559 --> 00:59:57.079
Okay, that makes sense too because, like you say, it
1004
00:59:57.559 --> 01:00:00.840
continues into the afterlife as well, the sanctification.
1005
01:00:01.280 --> 01:00:04.920
Yeah, we never stopped being deified, correct, because God is
1006
01:00:05.280 --> 01:00:07.920
infinite and endless. There's no there's no point at which
1007
01:00:07.960 --> 01:00:11.119
you like, Okay, I'm done being deified because I've used
1008
01:00:11.199 --> 01:00:13.800
up all my God points right right right?
1009
01:00:13.880 --> 01:00:14.119
Yeah?
1010
01:00:14.199 --> 01:00:16.000
And that's where is that where you would say the
1011
01:00:16.000 --> 01:00:16.639
process go.
1012
01:00:16.599 --> 01:00:19.760
Wrong kind of like the one time event type of understanding.
1013
01:00:19.920 --> 01:00:22.199
I think there's that's part of it. But also like
1014
01:00:22.320 --> 01:00:25.639
Protestants take the passes where Paul talks about, uh, you know,
1015
01:00:25.800 --> 01:00:29.880
glor glorification, sanctification, and they split these up like they're
1016
01:00:30.000 --> 01:00:33.840
rigid things. But that doesn't work because Paul can you
1017
01:00:33.960 --> 01:00:39.800
mute is loud. That doesn't work because Paul talks about
1018
01:00:39.840 --> 01:00:44.199
glorification happening in this life. So you can't have this
1019
01:00:44.360 --> 01:00:53.800
rigid like structure to justification, sanctification, glorification because in which
1020
01:00:53.840 --> 01:00:56.199
most of the time Protestants think those are like three
1021
01:00:56.280 --> 01:00:59.920
distinct things, and glorification is thus something in the escton.
1022
01:01:00.719 --> 01:01:03.880
Paul says that Moses experienced glorification when he went up
1023
01:01:03.920 --> 01:01:06.800
on the mountain in sing Corinthians three, So this is
1024
01:01:06.840 --> 01:01:10.880
not a rigid, three part tier thing that Paul's writing about.
1025
01:01:11.199 --> 01:01:16.760
So sanctification happens when you first believe. Justification happens as
1026
01:01:16.800 --> 01:01:20.320
you believe. That's why in Romans four Paul doesn't cite
1027
01:01:20.360 --> 01:01:23.920
Genesis twelve, which is where Abraham first believed. He cites
1028
01:01:23.960 --> 01:01:27.559
Genesis fifteen, meaning that Abram had already been doing three
1029
01:01:27.639 --> 01:01:30.440
chapters worth of good works. If Paul was teaching the
1030
01:01:30.480 --> 01:01:34.760
Protestant doctrine of justification. He has to cite Genesis twelve
1031
01:01:34.880 --> 01:01:38.360
because that's the first point when Abraham believes and is
1032
01:01:38.440 --> 01:01:43.079
quote justified in the Protestant view. But then Paul messed
1033
01:01:43.159 --> 01:01:46.519
up because he didn't cite Genesis twelve. He cites Genesis fifteen,
1034
01:01:46.800 --> 01:01:49.239
where Abram's already been doing three chapters of good works,
1035
01:01:49.280 --> 01:01:51.519
already is the friend of God, already is in the Covenant,
1036
01:01:51.480 --> 01:01:57.679
et cetera. So justification in Romans four is an example
1037
01:01:57.760 --> 01:02:01.760
of process which is totally contra to all Protestant theology.
1038
01:02:04.239 --> 01:02:05.440
Is it too kind of ask more question?
1039
01:02:05.559 --> 01:02:08.840
Or is it too loud?
1040
01:02:09.360 --> 01:02:11.440
One of the points in my life where is that
1041
01:02:11.559 --> 01:02:15.800
Protestantism was untenable was the the understanding that it's either
1042
01:02:15.800 --> 01:02:18.039
a Nestorianism or you split the Trinity.
1043
01:02:18.239 --> 01:02:20.320
Right Right at that point I kind of had to
1044
01:02:20.360 --> 01:02:20.719
give it up.
1045
01:02:22.639 --> 01:02:25.480
What how do you harmonize the passage about it's saying
1046
01:02:25.599 --> 01:02:28.800
like Jesus cursed hung on a tree.
1047
01:02:28.840 --> 01:02:30.800
Right, because my prost and friends, I get.
1048
01:02:30.639 --> 01:02:32.880
Exactly if you read, uh, if you read on the
1049
01:02:33.000 --> 01:02:37.119
Orthodox Faith by Saint John Damascus. The last four chapters
1050
01:02:37.119 --> 01:02:40.039
at the end of book three discuss what the Orthodox
1051
01:02:40.280 --> 01:02:43.639
conception of Christ's punishment on the cross and death and
1052
01:02:43.679 --> 01:02:47.440
all that what it means in a sense, Yes, he
1053
01:02:47.480 --> 01:02:50.880
did accept the punishment of the fall, which was death,
1054
01:02:51.400 --> 01:02:54.360
which is the separation of his soul from his body.
1055
01:02:54.880 --> 01:02:57.400
So the death of the experience is not a spiritual death.
1056
01:02:57.440 --> 01:02:59.519
As if the divine person of the Word, the Son
1057
01:02:59.559 --> 01:03:02.480
of God, could die, he can't spiritually die. He's the
1058
01:03:02.519 --> 01:03:06.119
second person the Trinity. That's impossible. So what happens is
1059
01:03:06.159 --> 01:03:11.360
that he willfully undergoes death, meaning the severance of his
1060
01:03:11.440 --> 01:03:14.079
human soul from his human body, and he descends into
1061
01:03:14.119 --> 01:03:17.000
Hades as the person to that human soul. Going into Hades,
1062
01:03:17.320 --> 01:03:19.880
he thus herrows Hades, destroys power of death, and then
1063
01:03:19.920 --> 01:03:23.000
resurrects and heals our body in her nature. So that
1064
01:03:23.159 --> 01:03:26.000
is not the Protestant conception, and hence why the Protestants
1065
01:03:26.039 --> 01:03:28.719
had to reject the descent into Hades and turn it
1066
01:03:28.760 --> 01:03:32.159
into in the classical Reformation tradition, Christ being damned on
1067
01:03:32.199 --> 01:03:39.000
the cross, as Lutheran calvin say. And then the I
1068
01:03:39.039 --> 01:03:50.239
just went blank on the other question, the story in
1069
01:03:50.239 --> 01:03:54.239
our arian splitting the Trinity, Oh, what it means to
1070
01:03:54.280 --> 01:03:56.440
be a curse? Excuse me? Yeah, if you read John
1071
01:03:56.559 --> 01:03:59.480
of Damascus in those last four chapters. I think it's
1072
01:03:59.519 --> 01:04:03.480
the first the four sections. He says when it says
1073
01:04:03.559 --> 01:04:05.760
Christ became sin or became a curse, it does not
1074
01:04:05.920 --> 01:04:08.480
mean he literally ontologically became a curse. It means that
1075
01:04:08.519 --> 01:04:11.440
he became as one if one were cursed, or he
1076
01:04:11.440 --> 01:04:14.800
says by appropriation, meaning perceived as if he was cursed.
1077
01:04:14.960 --> 01:04:18.679
He wasn't actually cursed, but men believed he was cursed
1078
01:04:18.719 --> 01:04:21.920
and saw him as that. So it's not possible for
1079
01:04:22.119 --> 01:04:24.719
the Holy Son of God to literally become evil and
1080
01:04:24.719 --> 01:04:27.960
become a curse. There is no such thing as a nature.
1081
01:04:28.039 --> 01:04:31.559
Becoming evil doesn't exist. There are nature doesn't Evil doesn't
1082
01:04:31.559 --> 01:04:36.320
have a nature. It's a privation magma. Okay, so you're
1083
01:04:36.559 --> 01:04:39.039
you're ferociously disagreeing. What's up?
1084
01:04:40.679 --> 01:04:43.480
Hey? Yeah, thinks? Uh, thanks for this? Can you hear me,
1085
01:04:43.559 --> 01:04:47.239
by the way, I don't think of I can hear Okay? Yeah?
1086
01:04:47.280 --> 01:04:51.440
He could you kind of quickly go over the problems.
1087
01:04:50.920 --> 01:04:54.280
With the beatific vision, I don't.
1088
01:04:54.519 --> 01:04:59.519
I think the Orthodox Church rejects that, right.
1089
01:04:59.559 --> 01:05:02.760
So it's based on first of all, it's based on
1090
01:05:03.079 --> 01:05:07.320
a erroneous doctrine of absolute divine simplicity that God is
1091
01:05:07.320 --> 01:05:09.559
equivalent to his essence, and that the end of man
1092
01:05:09.679 --> 01:05:12.480
is to stare into the essence of God. We do
1093
01:05:12.559 --> 01:05:14.880
not believe that creatures ever know or see the essence
1094
01:05:14.920 --> 01:05:18.039
of God, so it's wrong from that point. It's wrong
1095
01:05:18.119 --> 01:05:20.440
because the beutific vision docrine is part of the doctrine
1096
01:05:20.440 --> 01:05:23.840
of created grace that you don't actually experience the reality
1097
01:05:23.880 --> 01:05:27.360
of God's presence in this life, hence created grace in
1098
01:05:27.360 --> 01:05:30.880
the Roman Catholic doctrine. And that's another issue, because we
1099
01:05:30.880 --> 01:05:33.280
believe that you really do experience the uncreated energies of
1100
01:05:33.320 --> 01:05:36.440
God in this life, so glorification is not something that
1101
01:05:36.559 --> 01:05:40.559
is only for the esketon. And then the other problem
1102
01:05:40.639 --> 01:05:44.360
is that the beatific vision doctrine removes the possibility of
1103
01:05:44.360 --> 01:05:47.880
free will, because free will is defined and Patristic consensus
1104
01:05:47.920 --> 01:05:51.679
to be the ability to choose between multiple options. If you,
1105
01:05:51.800 --> 01:05:54.239
in the esketon only have the Divine Essence as the
1106
01:05:54.280 --> 01:05:57.280
only thing to will, which is what Aquinas for example, says,
1107
01:05:57.480 --> 01:05:59.079
then you no longer have free will because you have
1108
01:05:59.159 --> 01:06:02.280
multiple things to will. That's why the definition of free
1109
01:06:02.280 --> 01:06:05.320
will according to the Eastern Church and the Eastern Church
1110
01:06:05.360 --> 01:06:08.599
Fathers and the councils is the ability to choose multiple goods.
1111
01:06:08.840 --> 01:06:11.159
Hence there are multiple things to will in the escaton.
1112
01:06:11.480 --> 01:06:14.800
But the betifvision doctrine is actually neoplatonism because it says
1113
01:06:14.840 --> 01:06:18.480
that the satiation of man's intellect and will has to
1114
01:06:18.519 --> 01:06:21.760
be only willing the One for all eternity. That's the
1115
01:06:21.800 --> 01:06:25.400
neoplatonic doctrine, is not the Orthodox doctrine. You're resurrected into
1116
01:06:25.400 --> 01:06:28.000
a body. So how are you only willing the essence
1117
01:06:28.039 --> 01:06:31.280
of God if you're resurrected in a body to do
1118
01:06:31.400 --> 01:06:35.079
different things in that body? That makes it impossible to
1119
01:06:35.280 --> 01:06:37.960
only will and stare at the essence of God?
1120
01:06:40.079 --> 01:06:40.719
Right, okay?
1121
01:06:40.800 --> 01:06:41.519
And so that.
1122
01:06:43.079 --> 01:06:45.519
Well, well, by the way, it's also premise on the
1123
01:06:45.559 --> 01:06:48.800
idea that man's highest factory is the intellect, and that
1124
01:06:48.920 --> 01:06:51.880
man is only satiated by his intellect staring at the
1125
01:06:51.960 --> 01:06:55.480
essence of God. That's another point. So there's no doctrine.
1126
01:06:55.760 --> 01:06:58.320
Orthodox Church teaches the doctrine of the nouse and that
1127
01:06:58.400 --> 01:07:00.199
the intellect is not the highest faculty.
1128
01:06:59.880 --> 01:07:03.280
In So is that is that kind of like platonic?
1129
01:07:03.679 --> 01:07:06.719
Absolutely, That's why I said it's a neoplatonic doctrine that
1130
01:07:07.079 --> 01:07:11.800
to be to be Yeah, to be satiated. The will
1131
01:07:12.079 --> 01:07:16.199
and gaze must be only on the one for all eternity,
1132
01:07:17.000 --> 01:07:21.199
and to will many would be a defect and would
1133
01:07:21.280 --> 01:07:24.000
lead to a fall or some sort of willing evil.
1134
01:07:24.559 --> 01:07:26.440
That's pure Platonism neoplanists.
1135
01:07:27.519 --> 01:07:30.119
Okay, is there anywhere I could kind of read up
1136
01:07:30.119 --> 01:07:31.079
on that? I don't know, if you.
1137
01:07:31.000 --> 01:07:34.119
Have free choice in Saint Maximus includes an entire chapter
1138
01:07:34.320 --> 01:07:37.519
critiquing the division from the everything that you just heard me.
1139
01:07:37.480 --> 01:07:41.119
Spit out, Okay, Yeah, And then I did have another question.
1140
01:07:42.079 --> 01:07:46.840
I've heard you kind of critique the penal substitutionary atonement
1141
01:07:47.360 --> 01:07:51.000
at the presence hold two. And I've heard you say
1142
01:07:51.079 --> 01:07:55.400
that there is a sense of punishment, but it's not
1143
01:07:55.679 --> 01:07:58.159
the like the wrath of God.
1144
01:07:58.800 --> 01:08:01.360
Yeah, because it's the Son of God, as the church
1145
01:08:01.400 --> 01:08:04.639
fathers oftentimes stay, especially if you read John Damascus, he
1146
01:08:04.639 --> 01:08:07.159
states this when he talks about the incarnation. The Son
1147
01:08:07.239 --> 01:08:11.079
of God willingly chose to assume human nature and willingly
1148
01:08:11.199 --> 01:08:14.320
underwent death in that human nature. So it is not
1149
01:08:14.559 --> 01:08:18.319
a father turning his wrath to the second person of
1150
01:08:18.319 --> 01:08:18.800
the Godhead.
1151
01:08:20.039 --> 01:08:24.600
Okay, but there is like a sense of punishment though, well.
1152
01:08:24.439 --> 01:08:26.399
I mean God did say in the Garden of Eden
1153
01:08:26.399 --> 01:08:28.039
that if you eat of it, you will die, and
1154
01:08:28.079 --> 01:08:30.720
Adam chose to eat of it, and we experience death.
1155
01:08:30.880 --> 01:08:34.640
So death is the punishment, okay, but it is not
1156
01:08:34.800 --> 01:08:37.560
the damnation of the son that is the punishment. But
1157
01:08:37.880 --> 01:08:42.039
Protestantism in the PSA doctrine, because of imputation hinges on
1158
01:08:42.159 --> 01:08:45.000
that needing to be the case. If the punishment is damnation,
1159
01:08:45.920 --> 01:08:49.680
that's what we're doing, then it stands to reason that
1160
01:08:49.720 --> 01:08:51.920
the son has to undergo damnation, and that's actually what
1161
01:08:51.960 --> 01:08:53.319
the classical reformers all teach.
1162
01:08:54.640 --> 01:08:55.039
Okay.
1163
01:08:55.119 --> 01:08:59.680
So okay, So in what sense does the verse and
1164
01:08:59.720 --> 01:09:03.800
I Seaiah apply to Christ when like it says it
1165
01:09:03.800 --> 01:09:05.319
it pleased him to crush him?
1166
01:09:05.439 --> 01:09:08.600
Like is that is that looped in with that? Or
1167
01:09:08.720 --> 01:09:09.199
is that not?
1168
01:09:10.479 --> 01:09:11.359
Does not know it?
1169
01:09:11.399 --> 01:09:15.399
But again it's still under the condition of the willingness
1170
01:09:15.479 --> 01:09:17.920
of the Sun as the second person of the Godhead
1171
01:09:18.159 --> 01:09:21.000
undergoing willingly that that's why in the so like in
1172
01:09:21.039 --> 01:09:24.680
the Garden, when Jesus in the Garden of gethsimone. This
1173
01:09:24.720 --> 01:09:27.560
actually ends up being a big debate and a disputed
1174
01:09:28.239 --> 01:09:31.680
text at the six Ecumenical Council and the book that
1175
01:09:31.720 --> 01:09:34.760
you want to read on this is disputation with Paris
1176
01:09:34.840 --> 01:09:38.159
by Saint Maximus. So essentially the whole debate ends up
1177
01:09:38.359 --> 01:09:44.159
hinging on let this cut pass for me. And what
1178
01:09:44.800 --> 01:09:50.520
the resolution is is that even though Christ in his
1179
01:09:50.640 --> 01:09:54.760
human nature does not want to die, the death is
1180
01:09:54.800 --> 01:09:57.239
the punishment. The death is the thing that he chooses
1181
01:09:57.359 --> 01:10:04.239
willingly to accept from the Father. And that death, though is,
1182
01:10:04.239 --> 01:10:06.439
is the severance of his soul from his body. It
1183
01:10:06.520 --> 01:10:13.079
is not a divine spiritual like Jesus didn't spiritually.
1184
01:10:12.560 --> 01:10:16.520
Die, right, Okay, all right.
1185
01:10:16.720 --> 01:10:19.359
He underwent death in the human nature that he assumed,
1186
01:10:19.680 --> 01:10:22.399
and that's the punishment, and that's what he willfully accepts
1187
01:10:22.399 --> 01:10:24.720
in the garden when he says, let this cut pass
1188
01:10:24.720 --> 01:10:26.479
from me. However, not mine will be done, but that
1189
01:10:26.520 --> 01:10:30.600
will be done. And Maximus Maximus says, that's Jesus submitting
1190
01:10:31.399 --> 01:10:34.600
his human nature, which does not will to die, to
1191
01:10:34.800 --> 01:10:36.760
the will of the Father into the divine will.
1192
01:10:38.319 --> 01:10:40.199
Okay, all right?
1193
01:10:40.239 --> 01:10:43.159
And then what about if I could ask one more question,
1194
01:10:43.199 --> 01:10:45.720
what about predestination and election?
1195
01:10:46.079 --> 01:10:47.800
How is that applied.
1196
01:10:48.840 --> 01:10:51.640
Biblically and the Orthodox Church it's seen through the lens
1197
01:10:51.640 --> 01:10:54.359
of Christology. And so if you read Ephesians, or if
1198
01:10:54.399 --> 01:10:58.119
you're reading these passages, you'll notice that those are letters
1199
01:10:58.119 --> 01:11:01.720
written to visible churches, the of Ephesus. It's not a
1200
01:11:01.800 --> 01:11:04.760
letter written to the elect only. And so when Paul
1201
01:11:04.880 --> 01:11:07.079
writes to the Church of Ephesus, he's calling that whole
1202
01:11:07.159 --> 01:11:12.039
visible baptized community, the predestined and the elect. So I mean, yes,
1203
01:11:12.119 --> 01:11:15.840
God knows in his foreknowledge on who all the final
1204
01:11:16.319 --> 01:11:19.199
perseverers are, but we don't know that. We don't have
1205
01:11:19.239 --> 01:11:21.800
that knowledge, so we do not believe that there is
1206
01:11:21.840 --> 01:11:26.960
this sort of divine causality which overrides free will to
1207
01:11:27.520 --> 01:11:31.000
you know, DestinE certain people for damnation and certain people
1208
01:11:31.039 --> 01:11:38.159
for salvation. Yeah, but ultimately, when you get orthodox Christology,
1209
01:11:39.239 --> 01:11:43.239
the synergism that occurs with the human nature and Christ
1210
01:11:43.319 --> 01:11:48.000
synergizing with the divinity, that becomes the paradigm for human
1211
01:11:48.119 --> 01:11:51.159
will synergizing with the divine will in sooteriology. And so
1212
01:11:51.199 --> 01:11:55.760
there's never a God's the divine will and the divine
1213
01:11:55.840 --> 01:12:00.119
energy never supplants or replaces the human will and energy.
1214
01:12:00.279 --> 01:12:06.359
That's never possible. Hello listener, and then we'll go to
1215
01:12:06.399 --> 01:12:12.319
the next people raising their hands, people in the chat,
1216
01:12:12.840 --> 01:12:14.479
go ahead, can.
1217
01:12:14.319 --> 01:12:14.720
You hear me?
1218
01:12:16.239 --> 01:12:16.439
Hey?
1219
01:12:16.560 --> 01:12:18.199
Jay, is it midnight there?
1220
01:12:19.359 --> 01:12:19.920
Almost?
1221
01:12:20.640 --> 01:12:24.000
Okay, I was gonna say, Merry Christmas. It's eight o'clock.
1222
01:12:25.119 --> 01:12:28.600
It is right, my clock is off, good.
1223
01:12:29.039 --> 01:12:29.920
And Christ is born.
1224
01:12:32.600 --> 01:12:36.640
I just had two simple questions, Uh, I were you
1225
01:12:36.720 --> 01:12:43.239
were talking about some heretical icons from Patriot Prime recently,
1226
01:12:43.399 --> 01:12:47.239
and I posted something in there of an icon that's
1227
01:12:47.680 --> 01:12:50.720
pretty popular in Alaska is called the sick Icon of
1228
01:12:50.760 --> 01:12:51.560
the Mother of God.
1229
01:12:52.399 --> 01:12:53.920
And I posted in the comments here, and.
1230
01:12:53.920 --> 01:12:55.560
I was just wondering your thoughts about it because it
1231
01:12:55.560 --> 01:12:58.880
looks like there's an image of the Father God of
1232
01:12:59.199 --> 01:13:00.840
Father God at the top of the icon.
1233
01:13:03.079 --> 01:13:09.279
Let me go to the comments. Let's see if he's
1234
01:13:09.039 --> 01:13:12.119
if he's pictured as Ancient of Days, that's typically the
1235
01:13:12.119 --> 01:13:30.600
one that's tolerated. Let me see if I can find it. Okay,
1236
01:13:30.640 --> 01:13:37.319
I see, Yeah, I think that the the the image
1237
01:13:37.319 --> 01:13:41.880
of Ancient of Days is the one allowance for imaging
1238
01:13:41.920 --> 01:13:44.319
the Father. So I'm assuming that's supposed to be the
1239
01:13:44.600 --> 01:13:45.319
Ancient of Days.
1240
01:13:45.960 --> 01:13:49.359
Oh okay, Yeah, I wasn't sure. I guess it wasn't
1241
01:13:49.760 --> 01:13:56.560
obvious to me. That's pretty much my only question for
1242
01:13:56.680 --> 01:13:57.079
a question.
1243
01:13:58.399 --> 01:13:59.960
Yeah, and I think there are you know, there are
1244
01:14:00.039 --> 01:14:06.079
are examples where this is violated, but it's typically it's
1245
01:14:06.079 --> 01:14:12.319
still tolerated. So who was raising their hand? I already
1246
01:14:12.319 --> 01:14:13.119
forgot who that was.
1247
01:14:14.399 --> 01:14:14.680
Matt.
1248
01:14:15.119 --> 01:14:17.960
We're looking for people who disagree, so remember it's it's disagrees.
1249
01:14:18.039 --> 01:14:24.319
Go ahead, and Matt, hello.
1250
01:14:25.359 --> 01:14:25.720
You hear me?
1251
01:14:28.560 --> 01:14:28.920
Okay?
1252
01:14:29.600 --> 01:14:32.199
So I came in here a couple of months.
1253
01:14:31.920 --> 01:14:35.399
Ago talking to you about my atheist cousin. I was
1254
01:14:35.439 --> 01:14:39.880
struggling arguing against Can I ask a few questions relating
1255
01:14:39.920 --> 01:14:44.760
to arguing against an atheist?
1256
01:14:43.840 --> 01:14:46.079
Okay?
1257
01:14:46.279 --> 01:14:51.640
So his worldview is very super complex and super kind
1258
01:14:51.640 --> 01:14:56.479
of insane. He kind of views how we view the
1259
01:14:56.600 --> 01:14:59.479
problem of man to be sin. He views it to
1260
01:14:59.560 --> 01:15:03.880
be race and a specific race of people that you know,
1261
01:15:03.920 --> 01:15:04.880
I can't really say.
1262
01:15:04.880 --> 01:15:06.520
Well, I'm on YouTube, so.
1263
01:15:06.880 --> 01:15:08.439
Well, no, I'm not going to say, of course, I'm
1264
01:15:08.479 --> 01:15:10.920
not gonna say.
1265
01:15:09.039 --> 01:15:15.880
This on YouTube, man, So remember to keep your questions
1266
01:15:15.960 --> 01:15:19.960
YouTube friendly. That's want to lose my channel on this tonight.
1267
01:15:21.239 --> 01:15:25.239
Let's keep the topic to Catholic, Muslim, Protestant, libertarian, NaSTA
1268
01:15:25.279 --> 01:15:27.920
Hebrew roots. I actually I'm not mad at that guy,
1269
01:15:27.960 --> 01:15:30.479
but I didn't include atheism tonight. I wasn't in the
1270
01:15:30.520 --> 01:15:33.920
mood to do the atheist stuff, So let's keep it
1271
01:15:33.960 --> 01:15:35.319
to the topics listed. What's up?
1272
01:15:35.319 --> 01:15:35.520
Man?
1273
01:15:43.920 --> 01:15:46.960
Go ahead? Are you there? You've been raising? Yeah, you're up, dude,
1274
01:15:54.880 --> 01:16:00.000
Go ahead, glop yep.
1275
01:16:02.960 --> 01:16:03.119
Uh.
1276
01:16:03.520 --> 01:16:15.359
I want to continue on justification, specifically from a Protestant perspective, So.
1277
01:16:16.840 --> 01:16:18.000
How he said?
1278
01:16:18.119 --> 01:16:21.399
So, just so I'm not misrepresenting you, it's you guys.
1279
01:16:21.399 --> 01:16:28.039
Don't believe you merit your justification correct through your works.
1280
01:16:28.079 --> 01:16:32.840
Nobody deserves any grace or natural gifts from God, so
1281
01:16:32.880 --> 01:16:35.119
there are there is never any merits. But that does
1282
01:16:35.159 --> 01:16:39.840
not mean that there are not required works, because Jesus says,
1283
01:16:40.239 --> 01:16:43.199
if you love me, you'll keep my commandments, and Paul says,
1284
01:16:43.199 --> 01:16:44.920
the only faith that counts as the one that works
1285
01:16:44.920 --> 01:16:45.359
through love.
1286
01:16:48.119 --> 01:16:50.760
Sure, So I mean, wouldn't that pretty much be the
1287
01:16:50.800 --> 01:16:54.119
same as what most Protestants would say, though, because they.
1288
01:16:55.479 --> 01:16:57.439
Works are also an outworking from faith.
1289
01:16:57.600 --> 01:17:01.960
No Protestants believe that the doctrine of solo fide is
1290
01:17:02.000 --> 01:17:05.520
an imputational righteous that you are given righteousness that you're
1291
01:17:05.520 --> 01:17:08.920
given on the basis of Christ's penal substitutionary toonement, that
1292
01:17:09.079 --> 01:17:12.520
is accredited to your fictional bank account and has nothing
1293
01:17:12.520 --> 01:17:16.840
to do with your actual moral standing or transformational repentance,
1294
01:17:16.960 --> 01:17:17.880
and we do not believe that.
1295
01:17:19.880 --> 01:17:21.359
Sure, sure, So.
1296
01:17:21.359 --> 01:17:24.119
Would you say solo fide is kind of would you say.
1297
01:17:23.960 --> 01:17:27.199
It's monogists in a way where there's no action.
1298
01:17:27.039 --> 01:17:32.920
Of Him, I mean Calvinists, And maybe Luther would make
1299
01:17:33.720 --> 01:17:38.479
solo fide necessarily perhaps monogist, But there are many people
1300
01:17:38.479 --> 01:17:41.399
who believe in solo fide who are not monoargists. So
1301
01:17:41.880 --> 01:17:46.279
it's not necessarily connected to monogism.
1302
01:17:46.760 --> 01:17:50.680
Interesting. Okay, that's all I have with thank you.
1303
01:17:50.760 --> 01:17:53.239
Yeah, Jesus says this is the work of God that
1304
01:17:53.279 --> 01:17:55.880
you believe on him whom he has sent. So even
1305
01:17:55.880 --> 01:17:59.720
according to Christ, faith is a work which is always
1306
01:17:59.760 --> 01:18:12.479
a challenge for a Protestant. Go ahead, Xenodrome Aiden Nelson,
1307
01:18:12.720 --> 01:18:14.680
nineteen five dollars. What do you think about Western right
1308
01:18:14.760 --> 01:18:18.520
Orthodox churches? There's nothing really problematic with the right itself.
1309
01:18:18.800 --> 01:18:22.680
The problem is that, particularly amongst some sectors of the
1310
01:18:22.680 --> 01:18:26.319
Western right, it becomes a haven for people who convert
1311
01:18:26.359 --> 01:18:29.880
out of Roman Catholicism or Protestants who want to rehabilitate
1312
01:18:30.439 --> 01:18:34.520
many Latin theological errors and oddities, and so it becomes
1313
01:18:34.560 --> 01:18:38.079
this weird hive of weirdos that think it's their job
1314
01:18:38.159 --> 01:18:43.039
to convince everybody of original guilt or some such nonsense.
1315
01:18:43.159 --> 01:18:46.720
And so that's the main problem, nothing to do with
1316
01:18:46.760 --> 01:18:50.359
the right itself. Ms Rachel five dollars, thank you so much,
1317
01:18:50.479 --> 01:18:52.880
day Ji one dollar. I recently bought a few books
1318
01:18:52.920 --> 01:18:57.439
you mentioned. I tried searching your take on one your
1319
01:18:57.479 --> 01:19:01.159
YouTube channel with no luck. I have thousands of books.
1320
01:19:01.239 --> 01:19:03.479
I've mentioned thousands of books over the years, so I
1321
01:19:03.479 --> 01:19:09.760
have no idea what you're talking about. Sorry, Do you
1322
01:19:09.840 --> 01:19:12.520
have on your website, Electra every book that you've mentioned? No,
1323
01:19:12.800 --> 01:19:17.000
I mean, I don't know, man, I only have limited time.
1324
01:19:17.119 --> 01:19:18.960
Not trying to be rude to you. I appreciate your day jire,
1325
01:19:19.039 --> 01:19:22.359
but I have no idea. So just specify what the
1326
01:19:22.399 --> 01:19:26.119
book is and maybe I could give you a better response.
1327
01:19:26.560 --> 01:19:29.079
Anonymous five dollars channel, see you talk much about the
1328
01:19:29.119 --> 01:19:31.239
Anglican Church. We just had a debate with an Anglican
1329
01:19:31.840 --> 01:19:35.279
two weeks ago, so it's on my channel and we
1330
01:19:35.319 --> 01:19:38.800
went into the stupidity of branch theory and he had
1331
01:19:38.800 --> 01:19:42.800
a meltdown. So Jordan ten dollars never let that Lutheran
1332
01:19:42.840 --> 01:19:48.279
bozo on again. Hey, I think by God's grace, not
1333
01:19:48.399 --> 01:19:51.039
by my own merits. I was able to be patient.
1334
01:19:51.239 --> 01:19:57.199
So the year of love hopefully is charging forward with
1335
01:19:57.520 --> 01:20:01.640
some success. No more, mister nice j two dollars twenty
1336
01:20:01.680 --> 01:20:03.800
two cents. Here's a mini paypiggy. Thank you so much.
1337
01:20:04.119 --> 01:20:06.279
We love you over here because this is a channel
1338
01:20:06.279 --> 01:20:10.000
of love. Now backseat, sauceman. Ten dollars. I've been going
1339
01:20:10.039 --> 01:20:13.119
to Orthodox Church for like forty eight years, but I've
1340
01:20:13.159 --> 01:20:15.079
never heard of the Trinity dog. Can you help me out?
1341
01:20:15.119 --> 01:20:19.479
I got some FAQ's dog. Thank you. That's a funny one.
1342
01:20:19.479 --> 01:20:22.319
I think that's from earlier tonight to Nubble at five
1343
01:20:22.359 --> 01:20:26.000
dollars Jay the next hour. Protestant presidence says scripture is clear.
1344
01:20:26.640 --> 01:20:29.359
They don't need any church fathers for interpreting or any guidance.
1345
01:20:29.880 --> 01:20:32.720
Ask them why they believe the euchars is only symbolic
1346
01:20:33.239 --> 01:20:37.560
when Orthodoxy believes it is more. Yeah, I just I
1347
01:20:37.600 --> 01:20:39.760
think they're going to say that we're just wrong and so.
1348
01:20:40.520 --> 01:20:45.960
But the point still stands that I think they're overly
1349
01:20:46.279 --> 01:20:51.560
simplistic when they think that the scriptures are just clear. Well,
1350
01:20:51.640 --> 01:20:53.720
the scriptures are just clear, then why do we have
1351
01:20:54.439 --> 01:20:58.600
centuries of people trying to debate and explain the Trinity. No,
1352
01:20:58.640 --> 01:21:01.600
the scriptures are clear in some places. I mean, the
1353
01:21:01.640 --> 01:21:05.439
Ten Commandments is pretty clear about good and bad, but
1354
01:21:06.479 --> 01:21:11.239
other things are not clear. So it's not always clear
1355
01:21:11.520 --> 01:21:14.359
which ones are clear and not clear. And that's why
1356
01:21:14.439 --> 01:21:17.000
the Bible doesn't make you know stupid statements like the
1357
01:21:17.079 --> 01:21:20.640
Koran that everything is clear, which the Koran says many times.
1358
01:21:20.880 --> 01:21:22.680
DC will working three dollars, I think is a much
1359
01:21:23.159 --> 01:21:29.239
c cutch one two three five dollars. I think your
1360
01:21:29.319 --> 01:21:33.199
clip channels are helping the growth. I hope so. I don't.
1361
01:21:33.399 --> 01:21:35.680
I have one clip channel, which is jayder Life Streams,
1362
01:21:35.720 --> 01:21:40.039
and as certainties, I don't run or control any of
1363
01:21:40.079 --> 01:21:43.560
the other channels. Kyle runs dire Clips, which is fine
1364
01:21:43.560 --> 01:21:47.119
with me. And I've told you guys, anybody wants to
1365
01:21:47.119 --> 01:21:49.119
clip my stuff and do clip channels, go for it.
1366
01:21:49.119 --> 01:21:51.319
I don't care. I just asked that if you would
1367
01:21:51.600 --> 01:21:53.840
link back to my channel, that's it. Go for it.
1368
01:21:54.880 --> 01:21:57.600
Other YouTubers have many, many clips channels. We should all
1369
01:21:57.600 --> 01:22:00.359
be clipping and sharing the moments in your life streams
1370
01:22:00.359 --> 01:22:02.239
that inspire us. Hey, go for it. I hope you
1371
01:22:02.279 --> 01:22:02.600
guys do.
1372
01:22:02.720 --> 01:22:03.079
Please do.
1373
01:22:03.640 --> 01:22:07.319
I'm honored when people do clips of my stuff, Dragon Origin,
1374
01:22:08.880 --> 01:22:12.600
Dragon Age origins three dollars. Is there any chance of
1375
01:22:12.640 --> 01:22:17.399
you debating Alex O'Connor. I've asked many times, tweeted at him,
1376
01:22:18.000 --> 01:22:22.159
goes ignored. I mean people, you know you guys always
1377
01:22:22.199 --> 01:22:24.239
ask not I'm not fussing at you, but people are
1378
01:22:24.239 --> 01:22:26.439
always asking me. It's almost every day when you're gonna
1379
01:22:26.479 --> 01:22:30.680
debate this person. Look almost everybody that you ask I've tried,
1380
01:22:31.640 --> 01:22:37.159
and everybody has an excuse. So O'Connor's arguments are weak.
1381
01:22:37.199 --> 01:22:41.720
They need to be dealt with. I agree, but don't
1382
01:22:41.720 --> 01:22:43.960
hold your breath London five dollars. What do you think
1383
01:22:44.000 --> 01:22:47.279
about the street preaching movement online?
1384
01:22:48.079 --> 01:22:48.399
I don't.
1385
01:22:49.039 --> 01:22:52.600
I think street preaching is kind of stupid. Nobody really
1386
01:22:52.640 --> 01:22:57.000
finds this convincing. I mean maybe somebody here's a street preacher.
1387
01:22:57.079 --> 01:23:00.840
I just think it looks stupid. It comes off as crazy.
1388
01:23:01.640 --> 01:23:06.840
And in the Orthodox Church, you don't preach without being commissioned.
1389
01:23:07.279 --> 01:23:09.720
As Paul says in Hebrews, no man takes this honor
1390
01:23:09.720 --> 01:23:13.039
onto himself. That's why we always tell people not to
1391
01:23:13.119 --> 01:23:16.079
listen to randos on Twitter who have no blessing and
1392
01:23:16.159 --> 01:23:20.039
no commission and authority is not something that you take
1393
01:23:20.119 --> 01:23:28.119
upon yourself. It's given to you. So I mean, I
1394
01:23:28.239 --> 01:23:32.359
understand they probably have good motivations to go and protest
1395
01:23:32.439 --> 01:23:36.479
and preach at the parades or whatever. And you go
1396
01:23:36.520 --> 01:23:40.680
on to say, although these people preach at LGBT parades,
1397
01:23:40.760 --> 01:23:43.600
they reject the church. Yeah, we would say these people
1398
01:23:43.600 --> 01:23:49.079
are in delusion. But thank you for that, JCBO nine
1399
01:23:49.159 --> 01:23:52.600
five dollars. Did you ever play Metal Gear Solid? The
1400
01:23:52.680 --> 01:23:56.199
third game has cold war sci fi geopolitical storylines. I
1401
01:23:56.279 --> 01:23:58.680
played the first one for a little bit and then
1402
01:24:00.239 --> 01:24:02.319
was busy doing other stuff, so I never got back
1403
01:24:02.359 --> 01:24:04.960
to it. But I do remember that being like transhumanist
1404
01:24:04.960 --> 01:24:07.279
stuff in the first Metal Gear Solid. But I did
1405
01:24:07.279 --> 01:24:10.560
not get to the third one. But what was it
1406
01:24:10.640 --> 01:24:13.720
Black Ops that came out a couple of years ago?
1407
01:24:13.800 --> 01:24:15.600
Remember that one was all Cold War themed and that
1408
01:24:15.760 --> 01:24:19.439
was full of like MK Ultra Cia Assassin cold war stuff.
1409
01:24:19.479 --> 01:24:21.640
That was pretty fun. Actually, I actually enjoyed the campaign
1410
01:24:21.720 --> 01:24:26.439
part of that Black Ops Cold War That was fun.
1411
01:24:27.319 --> 01:24:32.560
PGA Lifestyle one dollar. What are the best resources? In
1412
01:24:32.600 --> 01:24:36.319
addition to the Orthodox study, abot about Messianic prophecies being fulfilled,
1413
01:24:37.319 --> 01:24:45.439
go watch my talks where I cover this Zeno drone,
1414
01:24:49.039 --> 01:24:51.600
you know, I mean, I.
1415
01:24:51.520 --> 01:24:52.800
Didn't want to interrupt in its far.
1416
01:24:53.560 --> 01:24:57.279
So I had a question regarding the Book of Daniel
1417
01:24:57.399 --> 01:25:01.000
and the prophecy and King Darius is a kind of
1418
01:25:01.039 --> 01:25:03.800
concerning I just wanted an Orthodox perspective on this.
1419
01:25:05.520 --> 01:25:14.520
Well, well, you muse like I'm echoing broken. Sorry, no,
1420
01:25:14.560 --> 01:25:16.439
I mean you you're I mean you're you're.
1421
01:25:17.159 --> 01:25:20.279
Oh no, I'm sorry, I'm using headphones and it's it's
1422
01:25:20.399 --> 01:25:20.920
I'm sorry.
1423
01:25:21.239 --> 01:25:21.760
Here with me.
1424
01:25:23.840 --> 01:25:28.119
In Daniel Chapter five, Daniel tells King Belshazzar that his
1425
01:25:28.199 --> 01:25:30.279
kingdom was basically going to come to an end, you know,
1426
01:25:30.359 --> 01:25:33.840
the number of measure divided, all that stuff. And in
1427
01:25:33.880 --> 01:25:39.199
that very same night King Garius, Babylonian King Darius, came and.
1428
01:25:39.279 --> 01:25:41.119
His reign pretty much ended that night.
1429
01:25:42.159 --> 01:25:47.000
However, historical accounts suggest that King Garius is conquering the
1430
01:25:47.000 --> 01:25:49.800
babylon couldn't have happened the.
1431
01:25:49.760 --> 01:25:51.560
Way the Book of Daniel suggests.
1432
01:25:52.000 --> 01:25:54.640
And I was just very I'm just wondering, what, what's
1433
01:25:54.640 --> 01:25:55.720
your perspective on that?
1434
01:25:55.800 --> 01:26:00.560
As a as an Orthodox, I would never take why
1435
01:26:00.640 --> 01:26:07.920
can you not? I would never take the so called
1436
01:26:07.920 --> 01:26:13.479
authority of secular historians over divine relation. Meg, What's up.
1437
01:26:17.760 --> 01:26:23.279
Hello, Hey, I got a question following up about the
1438
01:26:23.319 --> 01:26:31.159
post resurrection escaton specific to the state of the wicked
1439
01:26:31.439 --> 01:26:34.800
or those who have fully rejected Jesus in this life.
1440
01:26:36.479 --> 01:26:40.880
So my understanding of your view is like everyone is
1441
01:26:41.039 --> 01:26:50.640
universally like Jesus, universally recapitulated human nature. So everybody gets resurrected, immortal, imperishable,
1442
01:26:50.760 --> 01:26:59.000
and corruptible. So do the wicked experience physical pain or
1443
01:26:59.039 --> 01:27:04.000
decay if they're resurrected in a body like that of Jesus.
1444
01:27:04.520 --> 01:27:08.640
Yeah, what we believe is that the experience that they
1445
01:27:08.680 --> 01:27:12.199
have is a bad experience. So even though they're resurrected
1446
01:27:12.880 --> 01:27:17.520
the presence of God, which is a good presence, because
1447
01:27:17.560 --> 01:27:20.439
they're evil, it torments them. So that is what the
1448
01:27:20.560 --> 01:27:23.159
river of life or river of fire is, is that
1449
01:27:23.199 --> 01:27:25.119
the river of life is the river of fire to
1450
01:27:25.159 --> 01:27:28.720
the wicked because they have rejected God and become his
1451
01:27:28.840 --> 01:27:31.039
enemy and they hate him from all eternity. So they
1452
01:27:31.079 --> 01:27:35.359
have a what Maximus calls a ever ill being, whereas
1453
01:27:35.359 --> 01:27:38.079
the righteous, because they participated in divine life, have ever
1454
01:27:38.239 --> 01:27:38.760
well being.
1455
01:27:40.960 --> 01:27:45.439
Okay, is that just experienced in like a spiritual sense
1456
01:27:45.600 --> 01:27:46.720
or or in.
1457
01:27:46.640 --> 01:27:50.920
Them I would imagine that the body which they misused
1458
01:27:51.039 --> 01:27:56.920
and mistreated also becomes a source of disease and displeasure
1459
01:27:57.000 --> 01:27:57.359
for them.
1460
01:27:58.800 --> 01:28:02.439
Okay, So then you would say it is different than
1461
01:28:03.800 --> 01:28:06.800
the resurrected actual like.
1462
01:28:07.479 --> 01:28:14.199
Physical well angels. For example, angels never lost their angelic nature,
1463
01:28:14.760 --> 01:28:18.960
but they will experience an angelic form of torture and
1464
01:28:19.079 --> 01:28:23.680
torment for an eternal angel nature. So the natures don't
1465
01:28:23.680 --> 01:28:28.439
have to change, just like you know, human nature. We
1466
01:28:28.560 --> 01:28:31.319
have the same nature that Adam had and that Jesus has,
1467
01:28:31.920 --> 01:28:36.359
but this body can experience pain and can experience disease
1468
01:28:36.439 --> 01:28:38.960
in this life. And so the only difference is that
1469
01:28:39.000 --> 01:28:43.840
in the escaton all people get ever being, but not
1470
01:28:43.960 --> 01:28:49.399
everybody gets ever well being, only the righteous do. Okay,
1471
01:28:49.840 --> 01:28:53.479
So it is like Jesus's body in some respects, but
1472
01:28:53.680 --> 01:28:55.640
unlike Jesus's body in other respects.
1473
01:28:56.800 --> 01:28:59.319
And then I would assume you would not say that
1474
01:28:59.359 --> 01:29:03.920
they are in like they're able to experience. They're probably
1475
01:29:03.920 --> 01:29:08.800
going to be like sad and experiencing negative emotions on
1476
01:29:08.840 --> 01:29:11.279
a soul level endlessly.
1477
01:29:11.920 --> 01:29:14.039
I mean, Jesus seems to describe it that way. So
1478
01:29:14.239 --> 01:29:19.279
I don't know that impassibility would be I don't even
1479
01:29:19.319 --> 01:29:24.399
know that the human that our bodies necessarily become impassable.
1480
01:29:24.920 --> 01:29:27.119
That's just the divine nature.
1481
01:29:27.880 --> 01:29:32.039
Yeah, I mean we're resurrected in bodies. We're resurrected in bodies,
1482
01:29:32.079 --> 01:29:34.199
and we walk around and do stuff in the escaton.
1483
01:29:34.520 --> 01:29:39.039
So that to me suggests that it's in some way changeable.
1484
01:29:39.119 --> 01:29:40.800
It changes positions and location.
1485
01:29:42.680 --> 01:29:47.600
Okay, And then, like onto, since having a will and
1486
01:29:47.680 --> 01:29:51.880
a free will as part of our nature, what about
1487
01:29:52.039 --> 01:29:56.159
like the wicked, do they will multiple evils or are
1488
01:29:56.199 --> 01:29:58.920
they only able to will multiple goods?
1489
01:29:58.920 --> 01:29:59.760
But they just know?
1490
01:30:00.000 --> 01:30:02.600
I think they don't want to cooperate with it.
1491
01:30:02.680 --> 01:30:07.279
I think I think, like the evil angels, they have
1492
01:30:08.479 --> 01:30:13.520
fixed their will upon continually willing evil, so there's no
1493
01:30:13.640 --> 01:30:17.359
possibility of willing the good. So I don't know how.
1494
01:30:18.640 --> 01:30:20.840
I don't know whether they will multiple evils or not,
1495
01:30:21.000 --> 01:30:24.439
but probably, like the angels, their wills are fixed on
1496
01:30:25.359 --> 01:30:26.520
consistently willing evil.
1497
01:30:28.079 --> 01:30:32.239
Okay, So then is there's still deception left in their
1498
01:30:32.880 --> 01:30:34.079
mind or soul?
1499
01:30:35.920 --> 01:30:37.399
What do you mean deception left in it?
1500
01:30:37.439 --> 01:30:37.840
What do you mean?
1501
01:30:39.479 --> 01:30:45.880
I don't know, Like I guess, I think of evil
1502
01:30:46.479 --> 01:30:51.199
and deception as something that doesn't really have a substance
1503
01:30:51.359 --> 01:30:51.960
or a work.
1504
01:30:52.079 --> 01:30:52.520
I agree.
1505
01:30:52.640 --> 01:30:55.560
So in the Escaton, it's hard for me to understand
1506
01:30:56.119 --> 01:30:59.680
how people are still willing evil if God is all
1507
01:30:59.720 --> 01:31:04.199
in all, like, where is the evil.
1508
01:31:04.319 --> 01:31:05.680
In the same way that the.
1509
01:31:05.640 --> 01:31:09.720
Full presence of God? How can they still remain deceived?
1510
01:31:09.840 --> 01:31:14.119
And how can they still be willing evil things?
1511
01:31:15.680 --> 01:31:20.119
Because they chose to fix their will in a state
1512
01:31:20.279 --> 01:31:26.520
of rejection of God, and so God's presence to them
1513
01:31:27.000 --> 01:31:30.439
is a torment and not something that they can ever
1514
01:31:31.399 --> 01:31:38.439
choose virtue again from. So in other words, the mode
1515
01:31:38.439 --> 01:31:43.399
of willing, which was, which is personal, is what determines
1516
01:31:43.439 --> 01:31:46.000
the experience of the Askeaton, and that's dependent upon whether
1517
01:31:46.079 --> 01:31:49.680
you recapitulated the virtue, as Maximus says, or whether you
1518
01:31:49.800 --> 01:31:52.720
chose vice and thus became an enemy of God and
1519
01:31:52.760 --> 01:31:55.439
hated God. So if you chose to be an enemy
1520
01:31:55.479 --> 01:31:58.760
and hated God, then you chose that as your fixed state.
1521
01:31:59.479 --> 01:32:06.960
So yeah, I understand his view and yours. It just
1522
01:32:07.119 --> 01:32:10.520
it's hard for me to understand how God can be
1523
01:32:10.600 --> 01:32:15.039
all in all if those people are just fixed in evil.
1524
01:32:15.199 --> 01:32:17.159
But but I appreciate.
1525
01:32:16.680 --> 01:32:20.840
Your well, So the evil is not a thing that
1526
01:32:20.880 --> 01:32:23.359
you get fixed in because their natures are still good
1527
01:32:24.000 --> 01:32:29.479
but they are perpetually willing, like the fallen angels against
1528
01:32:29.560 --> 01:32:29.920
the good.
1529
01:32:31.439 --> 01:32:36.680
So yeah, okay, and then my last question is.
1530
01:32:36.760 --> 01:32:38.880
Are you are you a universalist? Is what you're getting at?
1531
01:32:39.399 --> 01:32:40.079
No, I'm not.
1532
01:32:41.640 --> 01:32:42.359
What's your position?
1533
01:32:44.119 --> 01:32:47.680
I believe, as Irenaeus believed, that the wages of sin
1534
01:32:47.840 --> 01:32:53.359
is death, and so the wicked will not be raised immortal,
1535
01:32:53.560 --> 01:32:57.000
and they will undergo a second death. And it's only
1536
01:32:57.039 --> 01:33:01.319
those who are baptized into Christ who will be raised
1537
01:33:01.359 --> 01:33:02.960
and perishable and immortal.
1538
01:33:05.039 --> 01:33:06.840
So you don't believe in a general resurrection.
1539
01:33:08.000 --> 01:33:11.880
I believe that though there's a resurrection of the just
1540
01:33:12.079 --> 01:33:16.399
and the unjust, and everyone will stand before God. But
1541
01:33:17.680 --> 01:33:22.800
what's believed like the unjust are resurrected into the same
1542
01:33:22.920 --> 01:33:26.159
type of body that they lived in this life. And
1543
01:33:26.479 --> 01:33:29.119
but but he believes go a second death.
1544
01:33:29.159 --> 01:33:32.960
But he believes, but he believes in recapitulation. So what's
1545
01:33:33.000 --> 01:33:35.319
the basis for resurrection.
1546
01:33:36.079 --> 01:33:37.159
Being in Christ?
1547
01:33:37.880 --> 01:33:42.000
So how are the resurrected at?
1548
01:33:42.760 --> 01:33:45.840
Is for those who are in Christ so receive a
1549
01:33:45.920 --> 01:33:47.000
heavenly defined.
1550
01:33:46.920 --> 01:33:49.199
So Christ didn't assume universal human nature.
1551
01:33:52.039 --> 01:33:56.640
Christ has a universal selvaffic will and his.
1552
01:33:56.720 --> 01:34:00.600
What did he assume in the incarnation so he didn't
1553
01:34:00.600 --> 01:34:02.079
assume the whole of Adam's nature.
1554
01:34:03.720 --> 01:34:08.399
He did, and so like the invitation is open for
1555
01:34:08.439 --> 01:34:09.479
everything one.
1556
01:34:09.439 --> 01:34:14.439
I'm talking about ontologically in him ontologically did he assume
1557
01:34:14.600 --> 01:34:17.079
universal human nature? Because you just said that they're wicked
1558
01:34:17.079 --> 01:34:22.000
are resurrected on what basis?
1559
01:34:23.239 --> 01:34:29.000
I guess because they like need to be judged.
1560
01:34:29.479 --> 01:34:32.439
Okay, But Paul says there's no basis for being resurrected
1561
01:34:32.439 --> 01:34:33.560
other than in Christ.
1562
01:34:36.560 --> 01:34:36.960
Okay.
1563
01:34:37.079 --> 01:34:40.079
So in First in First pridy Is fifteen, when Paul
1564
01:34:40.119 --> 01:34:44.600
talks about the extent of Christ's healing of our nature,
1565
01:34:45.239 --> 01:34:51.000
it's as cosmic and universal as the extent of Adam's sin.
1566
01:34:51.159 --> 01:34:54.520
And that's why Jesus is able to rescue people in
1567
01:34:54.600 --> 01:34:59.880
every state of life, including infants. Yeah, that means all
1568
01:35:00.079 --> 01:35:02.399
wicked are only resurrected on the basis of Christ.
1569
01:35:04.840 --> 01:35:07.640
Yeah, But he also talks about like this is applying
1570
01:35:07.720 --> 01:35:10.600
for people who are in Christ, like this type of
1571
01:35:10.640 --> 01:35:13.399
resurrection they receive.
1572
01:35:13.479 --> 01:35:15.600
So you're saying first favenly nature like his.
1573
01:35:16.079 --> 01:35:18.920
So you're saying First grand Is fifteen does not extend
1574
01:35:18.960 --> 01:35:21.199
the scope as wide as Adam's sin.
1575
01:35:23.000 --> 01:35:27.239
I believe it extends a scope as wide, but not
1576
01:35:27.479 --> 01:35:30.319
everybody accepts the salvation of Christ.
1577
01:35:30.840 --> 01:35:33.359
I agree with that, but the only way to be
1578
01:35:33.439 --> 01:35:37.359
resurrected is through Jesus destroying death, because it's our nature.
1579
01:35:37.399 --> 01:35:39.079
Do you don't think nature is a universal?
1580
01:35:41.279 --> 01:35:43.960
I do think it's a universal, But I don't think
1581
01:35:44.000 --> 01:35:48.520
that we're like inherently immortal.
1582
01:35:48.439 --> 01:35:50.560
Or I don't believe we are that.
1583
01:35:50.640 --> 01:35:53.079
Everyone who rejects Christ.
1584
01:35:52.800 --> 01:35:56.079
Fully, well, you just admitted.
1585
01:35:55.640 --> 01:35:59.880
My life and be immortal forever. You just admitted my
1586
01:36:00.039 --> 01:36:01.920
emotional upon being in Christ.
1587
01:36:03.520 --> 01:36:07.000
You just admitted my point that if Christ assumed human nature,
1588
01:36:07.039 --> 01:36:09.840
and if human nature is universal, then he resurrects all
1589
01:36:09.920 --> 01:36:13.359
human beings on that basis. That's what Urinaeas says. Recapitulation
1590
01:36:13.520 --> 01:36:14.760
is okay.
1591
01:36:16.720 --> 01:36:21.560
I mean, like, I agree that everybody gets resurrected.
1592
01:36:21.239 --> 01:36:22.720
And on what basis?
1593
01:36:22.760 --> 01:36:25.920
Anyone who gets resurrected has to be on the basis
1594
01:36:26.159 --> 01:36:29.600
of God's power, because in Him we live and move
1595
01:36:29.640 --> 01:36:30.439
and have our beings.
1596
01:36:30.520 --> 01:36:32.760
Where in the New Testament is there any idle.
1597
01:36:32.720 --> 01:36:36.920
To continue on for an entire eternity? I don't think is.
1598
01:36:37.279 --> 01:36:41.600
So are you aware of those who reject? Does Maximus teach?
1599
01:36:42.279 --> 01:36:44.760
So you don't believe the Orthodox position that Maximus lays out,
1600
01:36:47.600 --> 01:36:48.840
are you orthodox.
1601
01:36:48.479 --> 01:36:50.359
Or I'm not I'm Protestant.
1602
01:36:50.439 --> 01:36:52.760
Okay, well, there we go. Finally, that's all. You should
1603
01:36:52.800 --> 01:36:55.479
have just said that from the get go. Yeah, I
1604
01:36:55.520 --> 01:36:58.279
mean you you That's the problem is that you have
1605
01:36:58.359 --> 01:37:02.560
a Western idea that Christ did not assume human nature.
1606
01:37:02.600 --> 01:37:04.680
But human nature is a universal thing, and that's why
1607
01:37:04.720 --> 01:37:08.680
the scope in First Parents fifteen is everybody. And you're
1608
01:37:08.720 --> 01:37:12.000
just saying that God arbitrarily just resurrects the wicked for what.
1609
01:37:16.000 --> 01:37:18.840
To destroy them and give them the just punishment.
1610
01:37:18.960 --> 01:37:22.079
Where is there any evidence death? Where is there any
1611
01:37:22.119 --> 01:37:25.479
evidence there's a resurrection that's not based on Christ's work?
1612
01:37:26.199 --> 01:37:28.760
It is based on God's power.
1613
01:37:28.920 --> 01:37:32.600
No, Christ's work. What did you already said? Christ assumed
1614
01:37:32.680 --> 01:37:34.560
human nature and you call it a universal I don't
1615
01:37:34.560 --> 01:37:38.119
think you know what that means. So but what where
1616
01:37:38.159 --> 01:37:41.439
is there any evidence of a Where is there any
1617
01:37:41.479 --> 01:37:44.359
evidence of a resurrection that is not based on the
1618
01:37:44.359 --> 01:37:46.600
work of Christ defeating death in our in our nature?
1619
01:37:49.760 --> 01:37:54.880
I guess can you show me where it says that
1620
01:37:57.760 --> 01:38:00.479
the wicked are raised in Christ.
1621
01:38:01.600 --> 01:38:05.119
First Corinthia's fifteen says that all human beings are raised
1622
01:38:05.239 --> 01:38:08.800
in the same way that all human beings experienced death
1623
01:38:08.880 --> 01:38:12.319
on the basis of Adam's sin, So it's just as
1624
01:38:12.359 --> 01:38:14.520
wide as the scope of Adams. And you're saying, no,
1625
01:38:14.560 --> 01:38:17.319
it's not, it's only for Christ. Oh, so did Adam
1626
01:38:17.439 --> 01:38:21.680
only extend the death to certain people or to everybody?
1627
01:38:21.720 --> 01:38:23.000
The scope is as wide.
1628
01:38:22.760 --> 01:38:25.800
As Adam to everyone, just like Sin died.
1629
01:38:26.520 --> 01:38:30.960
Exactly, so the scope of Christ's saving the nature extends
1630
01:38:31.000 --> 01:38:35.039
as wide as Adam's sin. That's the argument of first
1631
01:38:35.039 --> 01:38:37.239
parent is fifteen. That's why all men are resurrected, even
1632
01:38:37.239 --> 01:38:43.840
the wicked. Okay, but why should I have to prove
1633
01:38:43.960 --> 01:38:47.359
that explicitly from a Bible verse when Protestantism doesn't have
1634
01:38:47.399 --> 01:38:51.960
a basis for what books go on the Bible. I
1635
01:38:51.960 --> 01:38:56.960
don't know, man, you don't know. Why would you be
1636
01:38:57.000 --> 01:39:00.520
Protestant if you don't know where the canon comes from?
1637
01:39:01.119 --> 01:39:08.720
I mean, the like the canon. You want to talk
1638
01:39:08.760 --> 01:39:09.520
about the canon?
1639
01:39:10.560 --> 01:39:12.279
Well, I mean, if you're a Protestant, you believe in
1640
01:39:12.319 --> 01:39:15.079
the Protestant canon of scriptures, So why is that the
1641
01:39:15.199 --> 01:39:16.319
right canon of scriptures?
1642
01:39:20.640 --> 01:39:23.640
I don't know. It's not necessarily something that is a
1643
01:39:23.720 --> 01:39:24.720
hill to die on for me.
1644
01:39:26.279 --> 01:39:28.359
So you're not a classical Protestant, you don't believe in
1645
01:39:28.399 --> 01:39:29.159
solar scripturer.
1646
01:39:32.840 --> 01:39:45.720
I would say, I believe like scripture is a very
1647
01:39:45.800 --> 01:39:50.199
high authority, maybe higher than what you would say, But
1648
01:39:50.279 --> 01:39:53.600
I wouldn't say solo scripture.
1649
01:39:55.319 --> 01:39:57.800
Is it the final authority for the church.
1650
01:40:07.920 --> 01:40:14.079
I would say it's a higher authority than like some
1651
01:40:14.119 --> 01:40:16.000
stuff in church councils.
1652
01:40:18.239 --> 01:40:20.520
Who decided what books go in the Bible.
1653
01:40:22.399 --> 01:40:25.439
Yeah, I'm I mean, I know, like church fathers and
1654
01:40:25.520 --> 01:40:30.520
councils played into all that. So that's fine. If you
1655
01:40:30.680 --> 01:40:32.680
want to debate that with me, we can.
1656
01:40:33.039 --> 01:40:34.000
Well, but I mean that's going to.
1657
01:40:34.039 --> 01:40:36.359
Condition you don't find it hill to die on? And
1658
01:40:36.560 --> 01:40:37.680
I'm well, I.
1659
01:40:37.640 --> 01:40:39.399
Mean, isn't that going to condition the way that we
1660
01:40:39.479 --> 01:40:42.520
interpret what Aaronaas says or what Maximus says or what
1661
01:40:42.640 --> 01:40:44.760
NICs says? Is I mean for you, it's kind of
1662
01:40:44.800 --> 01:40:46.760
like touch and go or like you don't really have
1663
01:40:46.840 --> 01:40:51.000
to concern yourself with those guys, right, No, I.
1664
01:40:50.880 --> 01:40:55.000
Do concern myself with those guys, and I like read
1665
01:40:55.119 --> 01:40:57.600
a lot of church history and church fathers and I
1666
01:40:57.720 --> 01:40:58.279
care a lot.
1667
01:40:58.520 --> 01:41:00.880
So okay, but what does that have to do with
1668
01:41:01.039 --> 01:41:03.079
whether or not there's one true church or not? Because
1669
01:41:03.079 --> 01:41:05.840
That's where I'm going with this, because if you're a Protestant,
1670
01:41:06.439 --> 01:41:11.800
you obviously don't believe that there's one true church, right.
1671
01:41:12.199 --> 01:41:14.880
I mean, I would say I believe in the priesthood
1672
01:41:14.880 --> 01:41:19.199
of believers, and that like a Muslim living in Iraq
1673
01:41:19.319 --> 01:41:24.880
who has a dream about Jesus tonight and understands the
1674
01:41:24.880 --> 01:41:29.439
Gospel and puts their faith in Christ, even if they
1675
01:41:29.600 --> 01:41:34.880
are not baptized into your Orthodox church, like I think
1676
01:41:34.960 --> 01:41:41.159
that they can be saved. So and I'm not saying
1677
01:41:41.399 --> 01:41:47.000
that like I don't know.
1678
01:41:49.439 --> 01:41:52.600
So it doesn't really matter whether your Protestant Orthodox is
1679
01:41:52.600 --> 01:41:56.960
basically what you're saying, Yeah, well, then why be Protestant
1680
01:41:56.960 --> 01:41:57.720
if it doesn't matter.
1681
01:41:59.680 --> 01:42:03.239
I mean, I would say the definitely the number one
1682
01:42:03.319 --> 01:42:16.000
reason that I have not become Orthodox is because I
1683
01:42:16.520 --> 01:42:22.039
think that the message has been lost, of just the
1684
01:42:22.119 --> 01:42:23.039
simple Gospel.
1685
01:42:23.319 --> 01:42:26.520
And how do you know what?
1686
01:42:26.039 --> 01:42:26.399
How do you know?
1687
01:42:27.279 --> 01:42:31.239
I do believe in penal substitutionary atonement, and that like
1688
01:42:31.479 --> 01:42:34.439
I can't. Do you believe that Jesus was damned enough
1689
01:42:34.800 --> 01:42:36.840
to be at the level.
1690
01:42:38.359 --> 01:42:39.640
Do you believe Jesus Jesus?
1691
01:42:39.680 --> 01:42:42.039
Do you believe that Jesus was damned? Probably?
1692
01:42:43.760 --> 01:42:45.840
No, I believe the wages of Sinn' death.
1693
01:42:46.359 --> 01:42:49.680
Okay, well, classic penal substitution says that Jesus was damned
1694
01:42:49.680 --> 01:42:51.079
by the Father as part of the pain.
1695
01:42:51.199 --> 01:42:53.479
I don't agree with John Calvin. I think he was
1696
01:42:53.560 --> 01:42:54.319
completely wrong.
1697
01:42:54.640 --> 01:42:56.880
Well Luther teaches it to John Calvin is not the
1698
01:42:56.920 --> 01:42:57.439
only one.
1699
01:42:57.800 --> 01:43:01.960
I disagree with Luthor then too, So.
1700
01:43:01.079 --> 01:43:04.520
So you don't believe in you? So is it your
1701
01:43:04.800 --> 01:43:07.039
version of PSA that you've come up with or like,
1702
01:43:07.079 --> 01:43:08.000
where did you get this.
1703
01:43:09.520 --> 01:43:16.039
From the New Testament? And like understanding, So.
1704
01:43:15.960 --> 01:43:19.279
How is it a payment if he doesn't take the debt.
1705
01:43:21.079 --> 01:43:22.119
He did take the debt?
1706
01:43:22.399 --> 01:43:27.720
Is the debt damnation? No, it's death, but not spiritual.
1707
01:43:27.359 --> 01:43:29.880
Death, complete death.
1708
01:43:30.159 --> 01:43:30.880
What does that mean?
1709
01:43:31.039 --> 01:43:32.319
Spiritual and body?
1710
01:43:33.239 --> 01:43:35.119
You just said not spiritual, but now you said it
1711
01:43:35.159 --> 01:43:43.079
is spiritual. What you just contradicted yourself. You said it's
1712
01:43:43.600 --> 01:43:47.119
complete death, spirit and body. So the Son of God
1713
01:43:47.239 --> 01:43:48.439
did spiritually die?
1714
01:43:49.479 --> 01:43:54.680
No, but like he died.
1715
01:43:56.000 --> 01:43:58.800
But I thought the debt that we owed was damnation.
1716
01:44:00.079 --> 01:44:02.039
But is the debt that we owe not damnation in
1717
01:44:02.039 --> 01:44:05.399
the PSA view, I.
1718
01:44:05.319 --> 01:44:08.119
Mean in John Calvin's PSA view.
1719
01:44:09.000 --> 01:44:11.079
Okay, well tell me in your view how it's.
1720
01:44:11.399 --> 01:44:15.720
That Jesus went down to Hades and suffered. You know
1721
01:44:16.079 --> 01:44:16.560
all this.
1722
01:44:17.279 --> 01:44:20.279
So you've made up your own Christianity. So why would
1723
01:44:20.359 --> 01:44:22.479
you make up your own christians So you've made it up,
1724
01:44:22.560 --> 01:44:27.520
you made up your own view basically. No, no, who
1725
01:44:27.560 --> 01:44:28.520
else teaches your view?
1726
01:44:29.960 --> 01:44:30.239
Uh?
1727
01:44:30.359 --> 01:44:33.680
Irenaeus, No he doesn't.
1728
01:44:33.000 --> 01:44:36.000
There were no, he does not. You're totally wrong. US
1729
01:44:36.039 --> 01:44:38.720
does not teach penal substitutionary atonement. There's nobody in the
1730
01:44:39.279 --> 01:44:42.239
nobody in the first fifteen hundred years teaches penal substitutionary atonement.
1731
01:44:43.399 --> 01:44:45.279
Melito of Sartis, well, he's.
1732
01:44:45.119 --> 01:44:49.119
A heretic, so good job, all right, So you're in
1733
01:44:49.159 --> 01:44:52.159
with heretics. So you found a church father's heretic that
1734
01:44:52.199 --> 01:44:56.279
teaches your your view. How is it how is it
1735
01:44:56.319 --> 01:45:00.520
penal substitution if it's not damnation, which was the the penalty.
1736
01:45:00.560 --> 01:45:02.119
I'm confused death the wages.
1737
01:45:02.840 --> 01:45:04.680
You just said it's also spiritual death. Did you not?
1738
01:45:05.000 --> 01:45:09.279
Well, because human beings, like we're not inherently immortal in God.
1739
01:45:09.319 --> 01:45:10.920
We live and move and have our beings.
1740
01:45:10.960 --> 01:45:13.880
So I'm talking about the death that's the punishment, that's
1741
01:45:13.880 --> 01:45:15.239
the fall. Is that spiritual death?
1742
01:45:17.079 --> 01:45:18.840
No, because you just said.
1743
01:45:18.640 --> 01:45:19.560
It was spiritual death.
1744
01:45:19.640 --> 01:45:20.520
Kick them out of the guard.
1745
01:45:20.840 --> 01:45:22.199
Five minutes ago, you said.
1746
01:45:22.720 --> 01:45:23.640
In a state of death.
1747
01:45:24.039 --> 01:45:26.720
Literally five minutes ago said it was a spiritual death,
1748
01:45:26.760 --> 01:45:27.439
which one is it?
1749
01:45:31.560 --> 01:45:35.119
So for like a human being, this is.
1750
01:45:35.199 --> 01:45:36.720
You're making this stuff up on the spot.
1751
01:45:36.880 --> 01:45:38.159
So this is all right.
1752
01:45:38.199 --> 01:45:39.479
I appreciate the conversation.
1753
01:45:39.880 --> 01:45:48.920
Okay, goodbye, Nuclear We got our wine. Mom of the night,
1754
01:45:49.640 --> 01:45:52.279
Matt one dollar. I was not trying to delete your
1755
01:45:52.359 --> 01:45:56.000
channel bringing that topic up, Anonymous, three dollars? What are
1756
01:45:56.039 --> 01:46:01.319
your thoughts on sixteen seventy two. I don't think there's
1757
01:46:01.319 --> 01:46:06.960
any problem with Dycitheus or Jerusalem. The problem is that
1758
01:46:07.039 --> 01:46:10.239
people see translations in Western language and they read all
1759
01:46:10.239 --> 01:46:16.640
the Western theological baggage into words. That's the problem. Why
1760
01:46:16.680 --> 01:46:23.039
am I mad? That was inane conversation. If you have
1761
01:46:23.079 --> 01:46:27.840
a disagreement, call in. This is not for you to
1762
01:46:27.920 --> 01:46:34.119
spam the chat on YouTube with your issues. And she
1763
01:46:34.199 --> 01:46:38.239
literally contradicted herself within like two minutes. So I mean
1764
01:46:38.279 --> 01:46:40.359
she literally said spiritual death and then she said it's
1765
01:46:40.359 --> 01:46:42.800
not spiritual death. I have no idea what she's talking about.
1766
01:46:42.800 --> 01:46:45.359
She's making up her own view, and I mean, look,
1767
01:46:46.000 --> 01:46:49.079
I'm sorry, nobody. Irenaeus did not teach penal substitution. This
1768
01:46:49.119 --> 01:46:51.920
is what Protestants do is they see terms just like
1769
01:46:52.199 --> 01:46:54.800
what I'm talking about, uh, and they read into the
1770
01:46:54.920 --> 01:47:02.119
terms all of their theological baggage. So they see some
1771
01:47:02.199 --> 01:47:05.199
Western translation of aaron As and they see something, Oh,
1772
01:47:05.279 --> 01:47:07.359
he's teaching the Protestant doctrine and the soul of feeding
1773
01:47:07.359 --> 01:47:09.960
at penal substitution. So I mean, there is no penal
1774
01:47:10.000 --> 01:47:14.000
substitution doctrine. That's what we know of as that from
1775
01:47:14.039 --> 01:47:18.199
the history of Protestantism. That doesn't include an actual transaction.
1776
01:47:19.560 --> 01:47:24.640
If the punishment is damnation and death, then the reformers argued,
1777
01:47:24.680 --> 01:47:27.479
then Jesus had to undergo the punishment to give us
1778
01:47:27.479 --> 01:47:35.920
the right. That's the exchange. Unmute Sam, Yeah, how's it going?
1779
01:47:36.840 --> 01:47:37.279
What's up?
1780
01:47:39.239 --> 01:47:42.199
Not that much was this listening in. I saw that
1781
01:47:42.279 --> 01:47:46.439
you're you have a wide array of people you'd like
1782
01:47:46.479 --> 01:47:47.319
to debate.
1783
01:47:47.359 --> 01:47:49.000
Okay, so what's your topic of debate?
1784
01:47:50.680 --> 01:47:55.720
Well, I am a Muslim, so maybe we could discuss
1785
01:47:55.800 --> 01:47:57.319
some theological differences.
1786
01:47:57.560 --> 01:47:58.880
It's been my favorite of yours.
1787
01:47:58.960 --> 01:48:07.119
Sure so John seventeen three, which Jesus said, and this
1788
01:48:07.239 --> 01:48:09.880
is eternal life that they know you when he was
1789
01:48:09.920 --> 01:48:13.399
speaking about the Father being the only true God and
1790
01:48:13.520 --> 01:48:18.560
Jesus Christ when he has sin. How would you reconcile
1791
01:48:18.680 --> 01:48:20.359
that with the idea of the Trinity.
1792
01:48:20.520 --> 01:48:25.000
It's called monarchical trinitarianism. Everybody who believes in the traditional
1793
01:48:25.199 --> 01:48:28.720
Orthodox doctor in the Trinity first thousand years believes that
1794
01:48:28.800 --> 01:48:33.920
the Father is God proper, hence monarchical trinitarianism. And if
1795
01:48:33.920 --> 01:48:36.199
you read the rest of the passage, it also goes
1796
01:48:36.239 --> 01:48:37.600
on to talk about the Son being gone.
1797
01:48:41.039 --> 01:48:45.119
All right, how would you reconcile the.
1798
01:48:45.600 --> 01:48:47.239
Have you read John seventeen to five?
1799
01:48:49.640 --> 01:48:51.720
Yeah, I mean, I'm fairly familiar with it.
1800
01:48:52.079 --> 01:48:52.399
What is it?
1801
01:48:52.600 --> 01:48:53.239
What does it say?
1802
01:48:53.560 --> 01:48:55.199
I can I can't quote it verbatim.
1803
01:48:55.439 --> 01:48:56.560
Well, do you have it in front of you.
1804
01:48:58.319 --> 01:48:58.640
I'm not.
1805
01:48:59.680 --> 01:49:01.880
I don't know how to leave this page and pull
1806
01:49:01.920 --> 01:49:02.840
it up at the same time.
1807
01:49:02.880 --> 01:49:04.279
But if you read it, you're more than welcome.
1808
01:49:04.960 --> 01:49:07.239
This is eternal life that they know you and Jesus
1809
01:49:07.279 --> 01:49:10.439
whom he has sent and now glorify me together with
1810
01:49:10.560 --> 01:49:14.199
you and the glory that I had with you before
1811
01:49:14.279 --> 01:49:18.039
the foundation of the world. So is Jesus saying that
1812
01:49:18.159 --> 01:49:20.720
he was equally glorified with the Father before the foundation
1813
01:49:20.760 --> 01:49:22.720
of the world.
1814
01:49:23.840 --> 01:49:26.079
I mean the way I would understand that was, you know,
1815
01:49:27.479 --> 01:49:31.399
like how I would understand Jeremiah one five, where God
1816
01:49:31.600 --> 01:49:32.960
was to Jeremiah before you were.
1817
01:49:33.520 --> 01:49:35.319
Are you the same guy that calls into sam Shami
1818
01:49:35.399 --> 01:49:36.520
with this stupid argument.
1819
01:49:37.640 --> 01:49:39.399
No, I've never speaking to the same.
1820
01:49:39.199 --> 01:49:42.279
Does Jeremiah say that he had glory equal to the
1821
01:49:42.319 --> 01:49:44.359
Father before the foundation of the world.
1822
01:49:45.079 --> 01:49:47.279
No, but it was predestined, So.
1823
01:49:48.079 --> 01:49:50.520
So you literally you heard nothing of what I said.
1824
01:49:50.640 --> 01:49:53.720
Jesus says I have the same glory with the Father
1825
01:49:53.760 --> 01:49:58.720
before the foundation of the world. Jeremiah doesn't say that.
1826
01:50:00.880 --> 01:50:04.680
Yes, let's see what you're saying, but it just you know,
1827
01:50:04.960 --> 01:50:07.720
the way it's qualified in seventeen three is that he
1828
01:50:07.840 --> 01:50:11.680
calls the Father the only true God. So that disqualifies
1829
01:50:11.760 --> 01:50:12.680
Jesus from being God.
1830
01:50:12.800 --> 01:50:15.720
No, it doesn't, because Jesus himself, in the same passage
1831
01:50:15.720 --> 01:50:17.880
says that he is equal to the Father and has
1832
01:50:17.920 --> 01:50:20.119
all the same work. Says the Father and Jesus called
1833
01:50:20.159 --> 01:50:21.960
God in every chapter of the Book of John.
1834
01:50:26.319 --> 01:50:28.319
I refree to believe that. I mean, if that's your.
1835
01:50:28.159 --> 01:50:30.319
Interpretation, No, I mean it's not my interpretation. Is what
1836
01:50:30.359 --> 01:50:32.159
he says. By the way, doesn't the Koran say that
1837
01:50:32.239 --> 01:50:37.840
the previous scriptures in Koran five forty eight confirm the
1838
01:50:38.239 --> 01:50:40.119
new scriptures being the Koran.
1839
01:50:42.920 --> 01:50:43.840
No, not exactly.
1840
01:50:44.199 --> 01:50:45.680
What does it say, because I've got it pulled up,
1841
01:50:45.720 --> 01:50:48.720
we revealed to you, Oh, Prophet, this book a confirmation
1842
01:50:48.800 --> 01:50:51.039
of the previous scriptures.
1843
01:50:51.560 --> 01:50:54.239
Yeah, but right after this says it's a supreme authority
1844
01:50:54.279 --> 01:50:54.720
over it.
1845
01:50:55.479 --> 01:50:58.319
Okay, but does it claim to be a confirmation of
1846
01:50:58.359 --> 01:50:59.000
what came before.
1847
01:51:00.760 --> 01:51:05.039
Yeah, But there's a caveat because in chapter two, verse
1848
01:51:05.039 --> 01:51:07.800
seventy nine, it says, well to those who write the
1849
01:51:07.840 --> 01:51:10.239
scripture with their own hand, then say this is from God,
1850
01:51:10.279 --> 01:51:12.319
and this is in reference to the previous scriptures.
1851
01:51:12.560 --> 01:51:14.720
No, it says that they twist it with what.
1852
01:51:16.239 --> 01:51:19.439
No, you're thinking of the wrong Verse two seventy nine
1853
01:51:19.479 --> 01:51:21.640
says they write it with their own hands and say
1854
01:51:21.800 --> 01:51:23.560
this is from God. You're thinking of the other verse,
1855
01:51:23.960 --> 01:51:26.359
which talks about the Jews who have twisted the words
1856
01:51:26.399 --> 01:51:28.840
of God. That's a different verse. The verse I'm talking
1857
01:51:28.880 --> 01:51:35.199
about is literal. If we say in Arabic or word.
1858
01:51:34.920 --> 01:51:40.600
Corruption, what's the verse before that? In seventy eight, I
1859
01:51:40.600 --> 01:51:42.199
don't have it on me, oh I do. It says
1860
01:51:42.199 --> 01:51:44.880
that they are illiterate. The ones that you're talking about
1861
01:51:44.920 --> 01:51:47.560
in seventy nine, who distort it with their own hands?
1862
01:51:49.359 --> 01:51:50.960
How do they distort it if they're illiterate?
1863
01:51:51.840 --> 01:51:54.119
No, it's saying they try to fool the people I.
1864
01:51:54.199 --> 01:51:57.399
Just read you. Among them are the illiterate who do
1865
01:51:57.479 --> 01:52:00.640
not know the scriptures. So woe to these who distort
1866
01:52:00.640 --> 01:52:02.159
it with their own hands when they say this is
1867
01:52:02.159 --> 01:52:04.920
from Allah? So how to illiterate people?
1868
01:52:05.000 --> 01:52:07.720
The people that are trying to fool are the illiterate ones.
1869
01:52:07.760 --> 01:52:10.079
But the ones who are distorting it with their hands.
1870
01:52:09.800 --> 01:52:11.760
No, it's not. It's the people who distort it that
1871
01:52:11.800 --> 01:52:13.880
are the ones that are illiterate because they know nothing.
1872
01:52:14.319 --> 01:52:15.960
How do you come up with that interpretation?
1873
01:52:17.439 --> 01:52:20.520
Because it says woe to those who dissort the scriptures? Right,
1874
01:52:21.840 --> 01:52:24.399
And it's not the scriptures that are distorted, it's the
1875
01:52:24.399 --> 01:52:44.359
people who distort it, right, who are deceiving people. How
1876
01:52:44.399 --> 01:52:48.880
does the Koran prove prove the previous revelation when the
1877
01:52:48.920 --> 01:53:08.239
Qoran says that the previous revelation is from Allah? Matthew H.
1878
01:53:17.479 --> 01:53:22.199
Jay, can you hear me? Okay? If you're only debating,
1879
01:53:22.239 --> 01:53:24.079
that's okay. I kind of had a quick question, not
1880
01:53:24.159 --> 01:53:25.159
really debating.
1881
01:53:26.600 --> 01:53:31.680
Okay, So obviously I'm just trying to understand from the
1882
01:53:31.800 --> 01:53:36.600
Orthodox position, like early in the Fathers that kind of
1883
01:53:36.600 --> 01:53:42.399
talks about the supremacy, kind of the supremacy of Rome,
1884
01:53:43.479 --> 01:53:46.439
Rome being the first see and kind of referring to that.
1885
01:53:48.399 --> 01:53:55.039
How does like, because obviously the Catholic claim is that
1886
01:53:55.640 --> 01:53:57.199
the Roman see is first.
1887
01:53:58.399 --> 01:54:01.159
So how is that different than what, uh, I.
1888
01:54:01.079 --> 01:54:05.079
Guess Vadictum one claims because you disagree with that?
1889
01:54:05.319 --> 01:54:07.640
What is Vatican one claim?
1890
01:54:08.159 --> 01:54:09.239
Like people inabability?
1891
01:54:09.720 --> 01:54:11.159
How does first equate to that?
1892
01:54:18.560 --> 01:54:21.680
I don't know. I kind of see that like the
1893
01:54:21.800 --> 01:54:25.439
Roman Church would be first above the others.
1894
01:54:25.479 --> 01:54:27.159
I don't know, Yeah, I mean it does that have
1895
01:54:27.159 --> 01:54:33.359
to do with infallibility universal canonical jurisdiction when Rome literally
1896
01:54:33.399 --> 01:54:37.239
just had to put out a document right here saying
1897
01:54:37.279 --> 01:54:39.479
that they didn't have that in the first millennium? So
1898
01:54:39.520 --> 01:54:40.319
which one is it?
1899
01:54:42.960 --> 01:54:43.600
Yeah?
1900
01:54:43.880 --> 01:54:46.880
Have you read? Have you read? She eighty?
1901
01:54:47.039 --> 01:54:47.199
No?
1902
01:54:49.000 --> 01:54:54.199
So right here, paragraph nineteen, the Bishop of Rome did
1903
01:54:54.199 --> 01:54:56.560
not exercise canonical authority over the churches of the East
1904
01:54:56.600 --> 01:55:01.840
and the first millennium. So how is Vatican want true then?
1905
01:55:02.720 --> 01:55:04.920
And where is this from? Sorry?
1906
01:55:06.359 --> 01:55:09.399
So, nodality and premacy in the first millennium Gady document.
1907
01:55:10.640 --> 01:55:18.720
Okay, so how does the Orthodox understand then, like, uh,
1908
01:55:19.439 --> 01:55:23.319
infallible dogmatic statements?
1909
01:55:23.359 --> 01:55:26.239
Like how how does the church I guess.
1910
01:55:26.079 --> 01:55:31.239
Uh put out a.
1911
01:55:29.880 --> 01:55:34.640
Dogmatic statement that is infallible? Is it only at counsels?
1912
01:55:36.960 --> 01:55:37.159
Yeah?
1913
01:55:37.199 --> 01:55:39.760
The Orthodox Church only holds that for councils.
1914
01:55:41.760 --> 01:55:46.119
Okay, Yeah, that was pretty much it.
1915
01:55:47.079 --> 01:55:48.880
Thank you, sure, no problem.
1916
01:55:49.199 --> 01:55:49.520
Uh.
1917
01:55:49.560 --> 01:55:51.920
To the guy in the chat, if you want to
1918
01:55:51.960 --> 01:55:55.439
come on in debate, you can. It's not a venue
1919
01:55:55.479 --> 01:56:00.560
for you to spam Protestant stuff everywhere. Nobody here is
1920
01:56:00.560 --> 01:56:04.159
going to be convinced by you saying that the Bible
1921
01:56:04.239 --> 01:56:08.359
doesn't talk about prayers to saints and Mary, so we
1922
01:56:08.399 --> 01:56:28.439
don't believe in scripture alone? What man? What go ahead?
1923
01:56:30.600 --> 01:56:32.479
You've been pushing the emoji for an hour? What do
1924
01:56:32.479 --> 01:56:47.800
you want the dude? What So you spend all that
1925
01:56:47.840 --> 01:56:51.199
time pushing the emoji and you don't have yours? Michael,
1926
01:56:51.359 --> 01:57:02.319
good job. My love is dying. I gotta replenish my love. Vasily,
1927
01:57:06.399 --> 01:57:13.880
Genesis priest, Vasili, what's up? I'm mute.
1928
01:57:15.279 --> 01:57:18.720
Yeah, I just got a quick question about your understanding
1929
01:57:18.800 --> 01:57:27.640
of eschatology. Is Christ on the scene in Isaiah sixty.
1930
01:57:26.119 --> 01:57:26.800
On the scene.
1931
01:57:26.840 --> 01:57:30.760
What do you mean is he reigning? Is he back
1932
01:57:30.840 --> 01:57:31.399
on earth?
1933
01:57:33.359 --> 01:57:34.479
Let me see.
1934
01:57:36.279 --> 01:57:38.840
The whole chapter. Some would say is the millennial reign.
1935
01:57:40.199 --> 01:57:43.479
We're not pre millennials. No, No Orthodox Church is pre millennial.
1936
01:57:43.560 --> 01:57:50.279
It was condemned at the Second Ecumenical Council. Christ's reign
1937
01:57:50.359 --> 01:57:51.560
began when he ascended.
1938
01:57:53.399 --> 01:57:56.920
Okay, so at what point in your prophetic timeline is
1939
01:57:56.920 --> 01:57:58.600
Isaiah's sixty taking place?
1940
01:57:59.479 --> 01:58:03.079
Now it's a prediction of the church. Hence the Gentiles
1941
01:58:04.760 --> 01:58:09.439
are mentioned. The Gentile church is mentioned. Uh, just scrolled
1942
01:58:09.439 --> 01:58:18.960
past that word to go verse five, verse six. That's right. Now,
1943
01:58:19.000 --> 01:58:22.880
this is all of the gentile nations worshiping the Messiah.
1944
01:58:22.920 --> 01:58:25.680
The kingdom is what Jesus set up in his first advent.
1945
01:58:26.840 --> 01:58:29.039
Hence the church is the kingdom of Matthew sixteenth.
1946
01:58:35.119 --> 01:58:35.239
Ei.
1947
01:58:35.279 --> 01:58:37.720
There you gotta amute man?
1948
01:58:42.800 --> 01:58:43.880
All right, you're telling me.
1949
01:58:45.000 --> 01:58:47.640
No the other guy, Genesis, are you there? You gotta umune?
1950
01:58:54.399 --> 01:59:02.439
Are you there? We can't hear you. So all of
1951
01:59:02.479 --> 01:59:05.800
these Isaiah passes, I've done whole talks on the prediction
1952
01:59:05.880 --> 01:59:08.520
of the Gentile Church in Isaiah, which is right now,
1953
01:59:10.119 --> 01:59:14.159
it's not the so called millennial rain. That's a judaizing heresy.
1954
01:59:14.199 --> 01:59:14.880
What's up Vasily?
1955
01:59:17.960 --> 01:59:22.600
So hey guys, Hey Jay, sort of I've been listening
1956
01:59:22.600 --> 01:59:23.079
for a while.
1957
01:59:24.079 --> 01:59:25.439
I'm in Sweden.
1958
01:59:25.600 --> 01:59:29.960
Woke up in the night, but so it's some off
1959
01:59:29.960 --> 01:59:30.479
for the rest of it.
1960
01:59:31.079 --> 01:59:34.720
But I don't know to common something about the the
1961
01:59:34.720 --> 01:59:41.439
Mormon the so so if you think of like what
1962
01:59:41.520 --> 01:59:46.880
they accomplish, maybe maybe not focus on the every detail.
1963
01:59:48.560 --> 01:59:51.800
It's like the look at the actions and not the words.
1964
01:59:52.119 --> 02:00:13.199
Okay, I appreciate that, Hm, go ahead, text us.
1965
02:00:14.960 --> 02:00:19.239
Yeah, I was a revolution in the chat talking about Mary, okay.
1966
02:00:20.680 --> 02:00:23.920
And I just one of the ways that people talk
1967
02:00:23.960 --> 02:00:27.239
about the Trinity is they say that, you know, Jesus
1968
02:00:27.279 --> 02:00:28.720
can hear the prayers of everyone.
1969
02:00:28.800 --> 02:00:30.079
It's talked about in John.
1970
02:00:30.600 --> 02:00:33.000
And this is one of the ways that we affirm
1971
02:00:33.319 --> 02:00:36.920
that Jesus is God. And so but I've noticed that
1972
02:00:37.119 --> 02:00:41.439
the Orthodox and Catholics, they make the same claims about Mary,
1973
02:00:41.479 --> 02:00:45.279
that she can hear millions of people's prayers.
1974
02:00:45.560 --> 02:00:48.119
Yeah, because in Revelation five through nine, the saints in
1975
02:00:48.199 --> 02:00:50.159
heaven hear the prayers of the saints on earth. It's
1976
02:00:50.159 --> 02:00:51.359
talked about in the Book of Revelation.
1977
02:00:53.239 --> 02:00:56.159
But it doesn't actually say that, does it it actually
1978
02:00:56.199 --> 02:01:00.760
says that there's bowls, but it.
1979
02:01:00.640 --> 02:01:04.199
Does actually say that because it says they're offering the prayers.
1980
02:01:04.279 --> 02:01:06.199
How are they doing that if they can't hear it?
1981
02:01:08.960 --> 02:01:10.119
So it says.
1982
02:01:11.680 --> 02:01:14.880
That they had balls full of incense, which are the
1983
02:01:14.960 --> 02:01:18.000
prayer prayers of the saints, So it doesn't actually say
1984
02:01:18.039 --> 02:01:20.359
they're listening to the prayers or they're answering the prayers.
1985
02:01:20.359 --> 02:01:22.159
It's called the Communion of Saints. They're part of the
1986
02:01:22.159 --> 02:01:24.960
same church as us. So the problem is that you
1987
02:01:25.000 --> 02:01:27.359
don't believe that people can be deified, which they can.
1988
02:01:28.720 --> 02:01:31.720
Okay, So I'm guessing your orthodox I don't know much
1989
02:01:31.720 --> 02:01:35.239
about you, but it sounds like anox sort of thing. Okay,
1990
02:01:35.840 --> 02:01:39.000
so I guess is there any other scripture whatsoever? Because
1991
02:01:39.039 --> 02:01:44.239
I'm not really convinced about that. But like, so, I'm
1992
02:01:44.279 --> 02:01:48.199
guessing that you're you're basically looking into the scripture from
1993
02:01:48.279 --> 02:01:50.760
your traditional beliefs.
1994
02:01:50.399 --> 02:01:52.239
Which everyone does what you do as well.
1995
02:01:54.520 --> 02:01:57.079
I tend to go more with if the Bible says
1996
02:01:57.079 --> 02:02:00.000
it and it overrides my traditional beliefs, I'll go with it.
1997
02:02:00.159 --> 02:02:03.720
No, I'm talking about everybody interprets text from their paradigm.
1998
02:02:03.840 --> 02:02:06.720
So you have a Protestant paradigm from which you interpret
1999
02:02:06.720 --> 02:02:08.560
the text. It's unescapable. Everybody does.
2000
02:02:09.520 --> 02:02:12.880
Yeah, everyone has paradigm. But we can overcome those paradigms.
2001
02:02:13.079 --> 02:02:15.640
We can look at right.
2002
02:02:15.560 --> 02:02:17.600
Yours is a false paradigm. Correct?
2003
02:02:18.479 --> 02:02:19.680
Sorry? What was that? Yes?
2004
02:02:19.800 --> 02:02:21.920
Correct, and yours is a false paradigm.
2005
02:02:22.760 --> 02:02:30.199
But your understanding of this is basically from your church tradition,
2006
02:02:30.479 --> 02:02:31.560
So you're overwriting.
2007
02:02:32.159 --> 02:02:35.159
You have a Bible that is from my tradition. The
2008
02:02:35.239 --> 02:02:39.399
received text is the Greek Church text, so you actually
2009
02:02:39.399 --> 02:02:43.079
borrow your name as Texas Receptives. That's the Orthodox Church's text.
2010
02:02:43.560 --> 02:02:47.119
So even you rely on us, I.
2011
02:02:47.119 --> 02:02:54.039
Would say that the originals that the Byzantine Church did
2012
02:02:54.159 --> 02:02:57.039
use the Boison place.
2013
02:02:57.640 --> 02:02:59.239
How do you know what the originals are?
2014
02:03:01.159 --> 02:03:04.359
Because the Bible season relationship in twenty two nine.
2015
02:03:04.920 --> 02:03:07.000
How do you know what the originals are? You're you're
2016
02:03:07.079 --> 02:03:10.279
so foolish that your name is Textas Receptis, which you
2017
02:03:10.359 --> 02:03:13.199
just admitted is the boys Untaking Church, which is the
2018
02:03:13.279 --> 02:03:15.680
Orthodox Church. And I asked you how you know that
2019
02:03:15.680 --> 02:03:20.800
that's the correct text from where? From where? And you're
2020
02:03:20.800 --> 02:03:23.000
going to cite the Book of Revelation, which is assuming
2021
02:03:23.039 --> 02:03:24.560
that that's part of the correct text, And that's what
2022
02:03:24.600 --> 02:03:27.640
I'm asking you, So stop us assuming the thing in question,
2023
02:03:27.680 --> 02:03:29.560
how do you know that that's the right list of books?
2024
02:03:30.199 --> 02:03:35.000
Well, every text says this, and so well, every text
2025
02:03:35.039 --> 02:03:35.800
says what I'm about.
2026
02:03:36.039 --> 02:03:39.279
How do you know that the textas receptist includes the
2027
02:03:39.359 --> 02:03:40.640
correct New Testament texts?
2028
02:03:45.680 --> 02:03:48.520
Head to one of the textas receiptist has the correct
2029
02:03:48.560 --> 02:03:49.439
New Testament texts?
2030
02:03:49.600 --> 02:03:52.880
Yeah, because.
2031
02:03:56.239 --> 02:03:59.079
Begging the question, how do you know that? Because it's
2032
02:03:59.119 --> 02:04:02.000
written on the title, Where does Matthew identify that's written
2033
02:04:02.000 --> 02:04:06.399
by an apostle? So you don't know the.
2034
02:04:06.199 --> 02:04:09.640
Third century documents that have this is from what?
2035
02:04:09.640 --> 02:04:09.760
What?
2036
02:04:09.880 --> 02:04:11.640
From? From what? People in the third century?
2037
02:04:13.359 --> 02:04:15.640
From manuscripts from the party.
2038
02:04:15.439 --> 02:04:20.279
Who maintained and passed on those manuscripts? Did they drop
2039
02:04:20.319 --> 02:04:20.840
out of heaven?
2040
02:04:22.840 --> 02:04:25.600
They were multiple different like people.
2041
02:04:25.880 --> 02:04:26.479
Like who.
2042
02:04:27.880 --> 02:04:28.680
People in history?
2043
02:04:30.000 --> 02:04:33.279
I mean the Orthodox bishops that maintained that the boys.
2044
02:04:33.000 --> 02:04:37.159
And tins, well I guess they.
2045
02:04:37.159 --> 02:04:38.479
Who are the boys and tains?
2046
02:04:39.520 --> 02:04:39.720
Well?
2047
02:04:40.199 --> 02:04:41.279
Who are they?
2048
02:04:42.279 --> 02:04:44.560
They?
2049
02:04:46.640 --> 02:04:46.880
Yeah?
2050
02:04:46.960 --> 02:04:55.800
Exactly see, I'm getting mean again. I gotta I gotta
2051
02:04:55.800 --> 02:05:01.479
be nice. The boys and tape go ahead?
2052
02:05:01.479 --> 02:05:02.760
Did you want to finish your comment?
2053
02:05:03.600 --> 02:05:04.039
Yeah, I don't.
2054
02:05:04.079 --> 02:05:05.119
I don't know what happened.
2055
02:05:06.439 --> 02:05:08.640
But you said that Isaiah sixteen.
2056
02:05:09.359 --> 02:05:11.199
So it's the air of the church. Jesus set up
2057
02:05:11.239 --> 02:05:13.239
the kingdom of Matthew sixteen. He calls the church the
2058
02:05:13.319 --> 02:05:15.359
kingdom and is not postponed to the end of the world.
2059
02:05:15.359 --> 02:05:18.119
It's not pre millennialism, it's now. Hence a prophecy of
2060
02:05:18.159 --> 02:05:22.000
the gentile church, which proves Christianity, and all pre millennialism
2061
02:05:22.039 --> 02:05:24.560
does is destroy one of the strongest priests for Christianity.
2062
02:05:25.600 --> 02:05:27.640
Okay, So why is it? Who are the gentiles?
2063
02:05:27.760 --> 02:05:29.840
So it says gentiles will come to thy.
2064
02:05:29.840 --> 02:05:34.760
Light the church. That's the church, the gentiles converting to Christ.
2065
02:05:35.439 --> 02:05:38.279
Okay, so the light the your is Does it matter
2066
02:05:38.319 --> 02:05:40.800
what translation, my reader, what you're preferred?
2067
02:05:41.880 --> 02:05:43.840
Arise and shine? Your light has called the glory of
2068
02:05:43.840 --> 02:05:46.960
the Lord has written risen upon you. Right, the Lord
2069
02:05:47.000 --> 02:05:50.560
will arise over you. When did Jesus arise over everybody
2070
02:05:51.039 --> 02:05:54.000
and rule over a gentile kingdom? When did that happen?
2071
02:05:55.800 --> 02:06:00.720
I'm asking you, I don't take this to be fulfilled
2072
02:06:00.800 --> 02:06:02.560
or I believe this is future.
2073
02:06:03.000 --> 02:06:05.279
And I'm showing and arguing why that's stupid.
2074
02:06:06.199 --> 02:06:06.560
Okay.
2075
02:06:06.680 --> 02:06:09.520
When did Jesus rise up over everybody and sit at
2076
02:06:09.520 --> 02:06:10.680
the right hand of the Father at the end.
2077
02:06:10.600 --> 02:06:11.000
Of the world.
2078
02:06:11.920 --> 02:06:13.079
Did they say right hand in here?
2079
02:06:13.119 --> 02:06:14.880
Oh my gosh, When did Jesus rise?
2080
02:06:16.760 --> 02:06:18.880
It says, I don't believe this is Christ because it
2081
02:06:18.920 --> 02:06:20.760
says arise and shot your light has come.
2082
02:06:22.239 --> 02:06:25.319
I'm asking you in the New Testament, when Psalm one
2083
02:06:25.399 --> 02:06:27.560
ten is cited every time in the New Testament, what
2084
02:06:27.640 --> 02:06:28.560
is it referring.
2085
02:06:28.239 --> 02:06:30.199
To Isaiah's sixties?
2086
02:06:30.279 --> 02:06:32.479
Not Psalms one team, I'm asking you a different question
2087
02:06:32.520 --> 02:06:33.479
that's going to relate to this.
2088
02:06:35.039 --> 02:06:36.760
When did he he was already at the right hand
2089
02:06:36.760 --> 02:06:37.199
of the Father?
2090
02:06:38.560 --> 02:06:42.520
The New Testament cites many times Psalm one ten. What
2091
02:06:42.680 --> 02:06:46.039
is it referring to When they cite it, it's a
2092
02:06:46.079 --> 02:06:46.760
basic questions.
2093
02:06:46.920 --> 02:06:49.119
You don't know Christ, Christ sitting at the right hand
2094
02:06:49.119 --> 02:06:49.560
of the Father?
2095
02:06:50.000 --> 02:06:52.319
And when did that happen? In the New Testament citations
2096
02:06:52.359 --> 02:06:56.199
of Psalm one tenth, what event is that about?
2097
02:06:58.279 --> 02:06:59.920
You tell me what's your what' you're under?
2098
02:07:00.319 --> 02:07:02.159
It's called the ascension, So you don't know what you're
2099
02:07:02.199 --> 02:07:15.640
talking John. That destroys all the pre millennial nonsense. They
2100
02:07:15.640 --> 02:07:19.119
don't even pay attention to all the citations of someone
2101
02:07:19.399 --> 02:07:22.840
in the New Testament. It's not the pre millennial second
2102
02:07:22.920 --> 02:07:26.159
coming rain on Earth. It's literally cited in the New
2103
02:07:26.199 --> 02:07:32.279
Testament every time about the ascension. That alone destroys all dispensationalism,
2104
02:07:32.680 --> 02:07:33.479
all the nonsense.
2105
02:07:35.600 --> 02:07:51.920
Go ahead, boys are tight, Boys are tight, boys untied?
2106
02:07:59.319 --> 02:08:02.760
Yep, hey, I call in a few months ago.
2107
02:08:02.920 --> 02:08:04.319
I know if you spoke about like the history of
2108
02:08:04.319 --> 02:08:05.199
sala officema everything.
2109
02:08:05.239 --> 02:08:06.720
Do you remember that? Oh?
2110
02:08:06.800 --> 02:08:09.560
Yeah, yeah, I just want to pay first, Like somebody
2111
02:08:09.600 --> 02:08:11.479
cut out that I made a clip of it.
2112
02:08:11.840 --> 02:08:14.520
I said, like a Muslim scholars talk to Ja Dyer.
2113
02:08:14.920 --> 02:08:18.119
I don't know who made that. Yeah, I think Novisky
2114
02:08:18.359 --> 02:08:21.720
made the clip and he misunderstood. But no, you are
2115
02:08:21.760 --> 02:08:22.760
not a Muslim.
2116
02:08:23.239 --> 02:08:25.640
No, I'm an ex Muslim. But Bible was not a
2117
02:08:25.720 --> 02:08:26.479
Muslim scholar.
2118
02:08:27.199 --> 02:08:28.680
I don't know. I don't know. I think you just
2119
02:08:28.720 --> 02:08:29.199
assumed that.
2120
02:08:29.920 --> 02:08:33.760
Yeah, I think it is a compliment. Anyways, I want
2121
02:08:33.760 --> 02:08:37.079
to talk more about Islam. Have you looked into the
2122
02:08:37.159 --> 02:08:40.319
Islamic problem of free will and predestination?
2123
02:08:40.720 --> 02:08:42.239
I have, And I'm not trying to be rude, but
2124
02:08:42.479 --> 02:08:44.680
I'm gonna take We're gonna I'm trying to close it
2125
02:08:44.760 --> 02:08:47.640
up here. So call back in next time and we'll
2126
02:08:47.680 --> 02:08:51.840
do discussions of critiquing Islam. But last chance for anybody
2127
02:08:51.840 --> 02:08:53.520
who disagrees, went to mind you gots heading over to
2128
02:08:53.600 --> 02:08:55.600
chalk dot com. I've been going for almost five hours,
2129
02:08:55.600 --> 02:08:58.680
something about uh spent and if I keep going, I'm
2130
02:08:58.720 --> 02:09:00.760
going to get rude and then, oh.
2131
02:09:00.680 --> 02:09:01.479
He wouldn't love it.
2132
02:09:01.640 --> 02:09:02.920
He got mean with people.
2133
02:09:03.359 --> 02:09:05.359
See, I'm starting to get a little mean, so I
2134
02:09:05.439 --> 02:09:08.960
gotta I'm at the back off. Plus it's Christmas, so
2135
02:09:09.199 --> 02:09:13.119
Merry Christmas and church tomorrow, so last chance. If you disagree,
2136
02:09:13.199 --> 02:09:15.520
raise your hand. I will try to be nice to you,
2137
02:09:15.600 --> 02:09:19.840
but my niceness points are running low right now, so
2138
02:09:20.319 --> 02:09:22.800
the love tank's empty. I spent all my love tonight
2139
02:09:22.960 --> 02:09:25.800
on everyone else. Heading over to chalk dot com, joq
2140
02:09:25.920 --> 02:09:29.600
dot com. That is the best in supplementation online. They
2141
02:09:29.600 --> 02:09:32.680
are my sponsor and they are a beloved, wonderful company.
2142
02:09:32.720 --> 02:09:34.920
You can get the best in supplementation at chalk dot com,
2143
02:09:35.159 --> 02:09:37.079
hq dot com right here. Use a promo go J
2144
02:09:37.239 --> 02:09:39.239
fifty excuse me, J forty you get forty percent off
2145
02:09:39.319 --> 02:09:43.640
j Ay four zero forty percent off. If you disagree
2146
02:09:43.800 --> 02:09:45.800
in the if you're waiting in line, you have to
2147
02:09:45.880 --> 02:09:48.359
raise your hand. Otherwise I'm not going to and if
2148
02:09:48.359 --> 02:09:50.319
you ask me a Q and A, I'm not gonna
2149
02:09:50.359 --> 02:09:53.920
answer it. So only people that disagree. So there's still
2150
02:09:53.960 --> 02:09:56.520
seven people on line. Do you disagree? Raise your hand,
2151
02:09:56.640 --> 02:09:59.199
I'll go to you. Use a promo go j forty
2152
02:09:59.199 --> 02:10:01.439
four life four for l A f E to get
2153
02:10:01.479 --> 02:10:07.479
forty four percent off. Guy am, my favorite clip is
2154
02:10:07.520 --> 02:10:11.359
you'r a goblin demon? But Retard Slick single handedly was
2155
02:10:11.399 --> 02:10:14.279
pushed out of Calvinism. Does anybody disagree?
2156
02:10:14.319 --> 02:10:14.880
I see.
2157
02:10:16.279 --> 02:10:19.680
Six people fought, none of you disagree. Why are you
2158
02:10:19.720 --> 02:10:21.439
still waiting if you don't disagree, because I'm not going
2159
02:10:21.479 --> 02:10:24.039
to unless you disagree? Anonymous? Three dollars? What are your
2160
02:10:24.039 --> 02:10:27.960
thoughts on? We already did that? Did I missed the
2161
02:10:28.000 --> 02:10:36.840
super chent Jenny Lamp? Ten dollars? That has nothing to
2162
02:10:36.880 --> 02:10:39.439
do with your stream. I just learned the lyrics to
2163
02:10:39.520 --> 02:10:41.960
Seal Kissed by a Rose? Can you sing the Jay
2164
02:10:42.000 --> 02:10:47.239
Dire version? Ah Ben kissed by a Rose on your grave?
2165
02:10:47.359 --> 02:10:51.279
I don't know whatever he says, Chris JD. Ten dollars,
2166
02:10:51.279 --> 02:10:52.119
all held.
2167
02:10:51.800 --> 02:10:54.680
The boys in teen Boys and ten?
2168
02:10:56.399 --> 02:10:57.640
Does somebody disagree?
2169
02:10:58.359 --> 02:10:58.640
Luke?
2170
02:10:59.640 --> 02:11:03.600
And to Jake? Do you disagree? Do you not know
2171
02:11:03.680 --> 02:11:08.560
how to use emojis. I mean, so none of you
2172
02:11:08.600 --> 02:11:10.720
are raising your hands. I'm assuming you don't. All right,
2173
02:11:10.720 --> 02:11:12.760
thank you guys. Uh, we're gonna call it a night.
2174
02:11:14.239 --> 02:11:18.199
No nol and nole ten dollars. I'm attending a Greek
2175
02:11:18.319 --> 02:11:22.800
Orthodox church. I know you recommended. Russian father I'm talking
2176
02:11:22.800 --> 02:11:24.880
to said Freemasons are not allowed in the church. He
2177
02:11:24.880 --> 02:11:29.600
doesn't like acumunism. Sounds like a good good guy. Sounds
2178
02:11:29.600 --> 02:11:32.000
like a good dude. Use your promo code J forty
2179
02:11:32.000 --> 02:11:34.319
four Our Life j JF for for LF right.
2180
02:11:34.359 --> 02:11:34.560
There.
2181
02:11:35.119 --> 02:11:39.079
You can get signed copies of my books at the website. Also,
2182
02:11:40.000 --> 02:11:45.239
head on over to my Twitter and remember that we'll
2183
02:11:45.239 --> 02:11:54.800
be live in Tampa at the Dark Seekers or Horror
2184
02:11:54.800 --> 02:11:59.000
Movies Tampa Screams Convention. The convention to separate from my
2185
02:11:59.119 --> 02:12:01.680
evening event, which if you come over here to the Twitter,
2186
02:12:02.079 --> 02:12:06.800
you get tickets January nineteenth, right here in the ticket link,
2187
02:12:08.359 --> 02:12:12.640
and then I'll take you over to here and the
2188
02:12:13.159 --> 02:12:16.439
dinner with me is separate. First thirty people that get
2189
02:12:16.640 --> 02:12:21.239
tickets get a copy of Esotery Hollywood, So get your
2190
02:12:21.279 --> 02:12:25.359
free copy right there, signed and it's a dinner lecture.
2191
02:12:26.199 --> 02:12:29.520
Tickets are thirty bucks. This is separate from the convention,
2192
02:12:29.640 --> 02:12:32.680
but we will be at the convention selling books and
2193
02:12:34.319 --> 02:12:37.560
signing books and all that data US seven ten dollars.
2194
02:12:37.600 --> 02:12:38.640
Thank you, brother, Thank you so much.
2195
02:12:38.720 --> 02:12:38.840
Dale.
2196
02:12:38.840 --> 02:12:43.000
I appreciate that. Appreciate that generosity. Again, Florida, if you're
2197
02:12:43.039 --> 02:12:47.840
in this region, come to the Tampa Screams Spooky Convention
2198
02:12:48.880 --> 02:12:50.680
and we're going to be doing it. We'll be doing
2199
02:12:50.680 --> 02:12:53.880
an evening talk. It's going to be fun, signing books,
2200
02:12:53.920 --> 02:12:57.560
et cetera. I'll see you guys there. Also, get chalk
2201
02:12:57.640 --> 02:13:00.000
dot com, get some supplements.